/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2010-02-19 / end

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  61. # [11:29] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: sideshowbarker * r342 /trunk/schema/legacy/legacy.rnc:
  62. # [11:29] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: suppress jing reporting of errors for script@event, script@for, table@datapagesize (we emit specific errors through assertions code instead) (b=717)
  63. # [11:29] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=717
  64. # [11:31] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r533 /trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java:
  65. # [11:31] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: emit specific error messages for obsolete script@event & script@for, and table@datapagesize (b=717)
  66. # [11:31] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=717
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  73. # [14:26] <Julian> mjs, trying to understand: *can* there be a FO before a WG decision is made? Did we have a WG decision so far?
  74. # [14:28] <mjs> Julian: we have not had a Working Group decision to publish yet, and my understanding of the Process is that a Formal Objection can only be raised against a decision, not against a proposal
  75. # [14:28] <mjs> though not everyone has had the same interpretation as me, for example I recall Dan Connoly generally chose to let people raise a Formal Objection as part of a poll or vote before a decision was made
  76. # [14:29] <mjs> in fact, at one point I recall that he wanted to interpret every "no" vote as a Formal Objection, even if the person voting no did not use those words and did not state a rationale
  77. # [14:29] <Julian> ok, thanks. that confirms what I thought. It appears we should stop then to argue about whether there was a FO, or an announcement there might be a FO
  78. # [14:31] <anne> with "we" you mean "you"?
  79. # [14:31] <MikeSmithXX> anne: I think Julian meant something more like "us"
  80. # [14:32] <Julian> by "we" I mean "us, the WG members, the chairs, and the W3C team"
  81. # [14:33] <Julian> Anne, not sure what you're talking about.
  82. # [14:33] <mjs> I think Larry pretty clearly stated that he did not raise a Formal Objection (via email on the 12th)
  83. # [14:33] <mjs> I am happy to take him at his word
  84. # [14:34] <Julian> ok, so that's settled then.
  85. # [14:34] <mjs> however, he did make an objection which is being taken to the Director, and I would like to understand what kind of objection besides a Formal Objection goes to the Director and what the requirements, if any, are for raising such an objection
  86. # [14:35] <mjs> independent of working out the remaining details of publication
  87. # [14:35] <Julian> mjs, sure. why don't my objections go to the director as well? :-) I object!
  88. # [14:35] <Dashiva> Julian: Apparently you have to tell MikeSmithXX
  89. # [14:35] <Dashiva> He is the gatekeeper
  90. # [14:36] <MikeSmithXX> yes, like in the John Carpenter movie
  91. # [14:36] <Dashiva> What do you do if you want to complain that the team contact isn't giving you due process?
  92. # [14:36] <mjs> Julian: I am in fact concerned that everyone will decide they should appeal everything they disagree with straight to the Director without raising a Formal Objection
  93. # [14:36] <mjs> that would probably not be a good way to run the Working Group
  94. # [14:37] <MikeSmithXX> mjs: a number of us would agree with you there
  95. # [14:37] <Julian> understood and agreed
  96. # [14:37] <MikeSmithXX> mjs: minus the word "probably", even
  97. # [14:39] <mjs> on the topic of FOs in general though, Martin Kliehm did make an objection which he said was a Formal Objection, which I would probably interpret as giving us notice of his intent to formally object, should the WG decision go against him
  98. # [14:41] <Julian> yep, but although I sympathize with his position the obejction itself seems to be on shaky grounds
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  100. # [14:42] <mjs> I have a dream that someday, we'll publish a set of Working Drafts and there will be no drama or controversy
  101. # [14:42] <Dashiva> There doesn't seem to be any filtering of unviable formal objections, though.
  102. # [14:42] <Dashiva> The only statement is that the director might not consider it seriously, but it still goes directly to the director
  103. # [14:43] <mjs> Dashiva: if the person doesn't self-filter, I think the Chairs are required to report it to the Director, at the latest by the next transition request
  104. # [14:44] <mjs> the only requirements are should-level: "An individual who registers a Formal Objection should cite technical arguments and propose changes that would remove the Formal Objection; these proposals may be vague or incomplete."
  105. # [14:44] <Dashiva> Yup
  106. # [14:44] <mjs> but I expect that at least in this WG, the Chairs would flag any Formal Objection that they did not think met the should-level requirement
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  108. # [14:45] <mjs> (we would probably also ask the objector to attempt to meet the requirements first)
  109. # [14:45] <Dashiva> I don't think the end result of the objection is the problem. Rather that more weight is given to FOs than necessary
  110. # [14:46] <Dashiva> E.g. letting them interfere with releasing new drafts that don't include a transition
  111. # [14:47] <mjs> FPWD is a transition
  112. # [14:47] <MikeSmithXX> mjs: as far as the current particular case, I think one way of describing the status at this point is, we find ourselves in a position where we need to wait for some review of the current situation by the Director, and in hindsight we maybe could have prevented ourselves from getting here, but we didn't, and we now do really need to wait to get some council/guidance from the Director
  113. # [14:47] <mjs> MikeSmithXX: I agree that is the current status
  114. # [14:48] <mjs> I believe all three of the chairs agree that is the current status
  115. # [14:48] <MikeSmithXX> but I do fully want to ensure we don't find ourselves in this situation again
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  117. # [14:50] <mjs> I am sorry if it sounded like I was complaining; my priorities at this point are just (a) get input from the Director so we can proceed with full clarity; and (b) see if we can improve how things work in the future
  118. # [14:50] <mjs> (in that order)
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  122. # [14:51] <Julian> I think part of the problem is/was trying to do too much at the same time
  123. # [14:52] <MikeSmithXX> mjs: I didn't take it that you were complaining, and didn't mean to imply it, and fully agree that the goals should definitely be the (a) and (b) you list
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  125. # [14:54] <hsivonen> Julian: I disagree and concur with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0383.html
  126. # [14:55] <hsivonen> Julian: I disagree with you and concur with sicking, that is
  127. # [14:55] <Julian> Henri, you may have noticed that I agreed with Jonas as well
  128. # [15:02] <hsivonen> Julian: I meant I disagreed that the problem was trying to do too much at the same time.
  129. # [15:06] <anne> did anyone look into the multipart/form-data thingy Julian brought up?
  130. # [15:07] <anne> i.e. sicking said he was re-implementing form submission...
  131. # [15:07] <Dashiva> People who object to a certain activity would probably consider any work on that doing too much
  132. # [15:07] <anne> it's somewhat important for the FormData object
  133. # [15:07] <hsivonen> I thought sicking was cleaning it up but not reimplementing
  134. # [15:07] <anne> oh ok
  135. # [15:09] <Julian> Anne, if there are problems with that RFC I recommend (a) reporting the errata, and (b) discussing this on IETF apps-discuss. It appears that a revision of the RFC might be needed (even if it's only details).
  136. # [15:11] <Julian> right now it has only a single erratum, and that's an editorial nit reported by me :-)
  137. # [15:13] <anne> to be honest I've plenty of other things to do
  138. # [15:13] <anne> it's just that XHR depends on it now and you reported some interop issue on public-html a while back
  139. # [15:13] <anne> since it was about encoding data it might affect stuff I guess
  140. # [15:15] <Julian> understood.
  141. # [15:16] <Julian> but if you are aware or become aware of more issues please raise them in some way so that I notice
  142. # [15:16] <Julian> If Jonas is re-implementing this it would be cool if he can compare his impl with what the spec says
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  151. # [15:57] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: sideshowbarker * r343 /trunk/schema/legacy/legacy.rnc:
  152. # [15:57] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: make datafld, dataformatas, and datasrc known legacy/obsolete atributes -- but
  153. # [15:57] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: only on the span, div, object, input, select, textarea, button, and table
  154. # [15:57] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: elements (instead of making them global, which would be nuts) (b=718)
  155. # [15:57] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=718
  156. # [15:59] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r534 /trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java:
  157. # [15:59] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: added specific know-obsolete-attributes-use-foo-instead error messages for datafld, dataformatas, and datasrc attributes (b=718)
  158. # [15:59] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=718
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  189. # [18:28] <CIA-1> v.nu-build: sideshowbarker * r93 /trunk/build.py:
  190. # [18:28] <CIA-1> v.nu-build: enable an alternate source for the form UI to be provided at build time (b=709)
  191. # [18:28] <CIA-1> v.nu-build: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=709
  192. # [18:28] <CIA-1> v.nu-build: sideshowbarker * r94 /trunk/build.py:
  193. # [18:28] <CIA-1> v.nu-build: make the build actually (re)build the generated PageEmitter.java and FormEmitter.java source files (b=719)
  194. # [18:28] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 709 enable maintainers to more easily build a custom form (at bugzilla.validator.nu)
  195. # [18:28] <CIA-1> v.nu-build: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=719
  196. # [18:28] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 719 generate the PageEmitter.java and FormEmitter.java sources as part of the build (at bugzilla.validator.nu)
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  216. # [20:33] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9000] datasrc, <script event>, <script for> and so on are missing <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Feb/0964.html>
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  219. # [21:33] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 9000] datasrc, <script event>, <script for> and so on are missing" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Feb/0965.html>
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  223. # [22:04] <pimpbot> planet: Constrained Data and Interoperability <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2010/02/19/Constrained-Data-and-Interoperability>
  224. # [22:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9086] "If the playback has ended, seek to the earliest possible position of the media resource." - should also check if direction is forwards, since if direction is backwards we're already at the earliest position <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Feb/0967.html> ** [Bug 9085] "If the playback has ended, seek to the earliest possible position of the media resource." - should also check if direction is forwards,
  225. # [22:10] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  226. # [22:14] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  227. # [22:15] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
  228. # [22:26] * Joins: J_Voracek (irchon@166.205.11.110)
  229. # [22:26] * Quits: J_Voracek (irchon@166.205.11.110) (Client exited)
  230. # [23:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9093] New: </p>text would ignore </p>, but it does not on IE8. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Feb/0970.html> ** [Bug 9092] New: </br><frameset>text would generate a frameset per spec, since the frameset-ok flag should be ok after </br> is seen. But an IE8 test shows otherwise <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Feb/0969.html> ** [Bug 9091] New: <span itemprop="fn">David Jun
  231. # [23:13] * Joins: paul_irish (paul_irish@71.192.163.128)
  232. # [23:40] * Quits: paul_irish (paul_irish@71.192.163.128) (Client exited)
  233. # Session Close: Sat Feb 20 00:00:00 2010

The end :)