/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2010-07-07 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  4. # [00:20] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10068] Deprecate noscript <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0102.html>
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  6. # [00:56] <pimpbot> planet: Firefox 4 Beta 1: Tell us what you think! <http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2010/07/06/firefox-4-beta-1-tell-us-what-you-think/>
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  16. # [02:57] <pimpbot> planet: A GPU-Powered Shopping Experience with Amazon.com <http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/07/06/a-gpu-powered-shopping-experience-with-amazon-com.aspx>
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  21. # [03:57] <pimpbot> planet: Firefox 4 beta 1 is here – what’s in it for web developers? <http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/07/firefox-4-beta-1-is-here-whats-in-it-for-web-developers/>
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  38. # [09:22] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10083] Remove references to Microdata from within the document <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0103.html>
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  40. # [10:23] <pimpbot> changes: mike: clarify in Abstract that we also include info from "other sources" (e.g,, default UA stylesheet for WebKit) (bug 10083) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Jul/0018.html> ** mike: refined part of Abstract to indicate htmlr is not intended only to complement the HTML5 spec, but also other HTML WG deliverables. (bug 10083) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Jul/0017.html>
  41. # [10:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10083] Remove references to Microdata from within the document" (4 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0106.html>
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  48. # [10:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10068] Suggest making noscript obsolete but conforming <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0111.html> ** [Bug 10068] Deprecate noscript <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0110.html> ** "[Bug 10083] Remove references to Microdata from within the document" (7 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0109.html>
  49. # [11:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10101] New: What does non-normative mean? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0112.html>
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  51. # [12:03] <Julian> Mike, I think it would be good to look at the individual cases where the author view has a reference to the full view -- maybe there's an underlying problem that needs to be fixed.
  52. # [12:04] <Julian> Mike, also: are there plans to add RDFa-specific info to H:TML?
  53. # [12:05] <MikeSmithX> Julian: if you have suggestions about specific per-element stuff about HTML+RDFa that I could add, lemme know
  54. # [12:06] <MikeSmithX> I looked through the spec but could not identify anything
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  56. # [12:09] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-core/#rdfa-attributes?
  57. # [12:09] <pimpbot> Title: RDFa Core 1.1 (at www.w3.org)
  58. # [12:12] <MikeSmithX> Julian: I don't yet have those attributes in the RelaxNG schema from which I generate the doc
  59. # [12:13] <MikeSmithX> the same schema we're using for validator.nu
  60. # [12:14] <MikeSmithX> Julian: agreed, about there being a pattern to some of the instances where the author view has a reference to the full view
  61. # [12:14] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  62. # [12:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10102] New: Can an option element be disabled by a fieldset@disabled ancestor? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0113.html>
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  64. # [13:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10083] Remove references to Microdata from within the document" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0115.html>
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  77. # [15:54] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10083] Remove references to Microdata from within the document <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0117.html> ** [Bug 10103] New: s/that its namedItem() method returns an HTMLCollection object/that its namedItem() method returns an *HTMLAllCollection* object/ <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0116.html>
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  83. # [16:20] <Julian> Mike, I *do* agree that you changed the scope of H:TML. Apparently, there is disagreement about what the scope was initially .-).
  84. # [16:20] <Julian> So, 2 issues:
  85. # [16:21] <Julian> - do we want H:TML to talk about things not in the HTML5 spec?
  86. # [16:21] <Julian> - and if so, how do we decide which
  87. # [16:21] <Julian> And, obviously, if we add Microdata than not adding RDFa as well will be a problem.
  88. # [16:24] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10068] Suggest making noscript obsolete but conforming" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0121.html> ** [Bug 10083] Remove references to Microdata from within the document <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0119.html> ** [Bug 10068] Suggest making noscript obsolete but conforming <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010
  89. # [16:30] <Julian> it would also help if the document had a short explanation (or a link) explaining what "microdata property value" actually means
  90. # [16:33] <MikeSmithX> Julian: I can add that later
  91. # [16:34] <MikeSmithX> I don't yet have explanations for what any of the other sections mean either
  92. # [16:34] <Julian> is there an app for that ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H do we need a bug for that?
  93. # [16:35] <Julian> yes, but for the other sections it seems to be pretty clear (at least to me
  94. # [16:35] <Julian> )
  95. # [16:35] <MikeSmithX> I suppose that's true
  96. # [16:36] <MikeSmithX> but I nonetheless intend to add explanations for all of them
  97. # [16:36] <MikeSmithX> eventually
  98. # [16:37] <MikeSmithX> and to be absolutely crystal clear: I very emphatically do not agree that the addition of this Microdata subsection changes the scope of the document
  99. # [16:37] <MikeSmithX> if you want to argue that, argue that it changed back when I added the "Typical default display properties" section
  100. # [16:37] <MikeSmithX> or when I added the info about the DOM interfaces
  101. # [16:38] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  102. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> if somebody else wants to produce another draft that is strictly limited to only having document-conformance details, than I would support publication of that
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  104. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> and anybody who wants to do so is welcome to use my document as a source for doing that
  105. # [16:40] <Julian_> I currently have no opinion on the other things you added
  106. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> e.g., by programatically generating a subset of it that omits whatever is not related to what they want to scope to be
  107. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> or else by producing another document organized however they care to organize it
  108. # [16:40] <Julian_> But it should be pretty clear that adding just Microdata and not RDFa *is* going to restart a permathread that I though we closed last winter
  109. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> not clear
  110. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> this is now a purely informative document
  111. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> it makes not claims to being normative
  112. # [16:41] <hober> so far it's you, julian, and shelley, who are restarting that permathread
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  115. # [16:41] <hober> it's your choice to do that
  116. # [16:43] <Julian> hober: if you seriously believe this than it probably does not make sense to discuss this with you
  117. # [16:43] <Julian> Mike, I don't think informative vs normative is important here
  118. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> why not important?
  119. # [16:43] <Julian> the removal of Microdata IMHO was a (good!) political decision, putting RDFa and Microdata into the same category
  120. # [16:44] <Julian> it undid a political decision of Hickson to add it without consensus
  121. # [16:45] <Julian> adding stuff about Microdata only *is* going to restart that discussion
  122. # [16:46] <Julian> the argument probably can be stopped quickly if we decide to treat them equally in this document as well (either way)
  123. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> so I should now restrict adding potentially useful information to the document because I know some people are going to twist it into having been done for political reasons?
  124. # [16:47] <Julian> well, as editor of a WG document you'll have to think about whether something will be controversial. This is 100% sure to be controversial, so it might make sense to discuss it in the WG first.
  125. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> it is not a design goal of this document to refrain from adding useful information simply in order to not risk having particular technologies be seen as being treated unequally
  126. # [16:49] <Julian> :-)
  127. # [16:49] <Julian> Seriously, it would be good to discuss what the actual design goals *are*, how they affect the scope, and how to get those goals reached.
  128. # [16:50] <Julian> For instance, I'm not sure what level of "microdata support" you're planning to add.
  129. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> Julian: for better or worse, the decision policy does not obligate editors to avoid making changes that are likely to be controversial
  130. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> that is all I am planning to add at this point
  131. # [16:50] <Julian> Does it make sense to add the aforementioned sections, but not the MD attributes? Just asking!
  132. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> it makes sense to me
  133. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> it is useful information regardless of whether the attributes themselves are also in this doc
  134. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> I'm not trying to blow you off, btw
  135. # [16:52] <Julian> Mike, no, it doesn't, but quite frankly I had hoped you wouldn't; we already have enough problems with the commit-then-let-people-complain attitude :-)
  136. # [16:52] <Julian> Mike, yes, it may be useful. That's why I was asking what your plans are.
  137. # [16:53] <Julian> Right now the addition of these subsections without any explanation/reference whatsoever are just confusing.
  138. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> my plan was to continue on this document whenever I can carve out time to work on it
  139. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> and as long as I can maintain enthusiasm for continuing to do so
  140. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> without having my motives impugned and my enthusiasm quashed
  141. # [16:55] <Julian> Understood
  142. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> I am in good faith trying to make the document as useful as I can
  143. # [16:55] <Julian> And sorry if I was giving the impression of trying to stop you from doing this
  144. # [16:55] <Julian> I think this document is important
  145. # [16:56] <Julian> And it probably will get more review now that it is a WG draft.
  146. # [16:56] <Julian> But that probably also means that it'll be harder to experiment with scope^h^h^h^h^hcontents
  147. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> Julian: I'm not saying that you're trying to stop me
  148. # [16:57] <Julian> reminder: a long time ago I was among those who wanted this to be normative
  149. # [16:57] <anne> it doesn't need to be a WG document per se
  150. # [16:57] <anne> in fact, might be even nicer without all the boilerplate :)
  151. # [16:57] * anne ponders about html5-diff
  152. # [16:57] <Philip> MikeSmith: You should make it into a book and sell it for lots of money
  153. # [16:57] <Julian> Anne, I hope you don't want to restart a permathread either :-)
  154. # [16:58] <anne> restart?
  155. # [16:58] <Julian> didn't we have one about H:TML being a WG doc or not?
  156. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> Philip: maybe it can help get me one of those lucrative "HTML5" jobs I keep reading about in the news
  157. # [16:58] <anne> I don't really care about permathreads anymore
  158. # [16:58] <anne> I just don't read them
  159. # [16:59] <Julian> Mike, I'm sure Apple needs some help explaining what HTML5 is :-)
  160. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> heh
  161. # [16:59] <hober> Julian: I remember there being some disagreement over it being normative or not, but I don't think the controversy was over it being published by the WG or not.
  162. # [16:59] <Julian> Ah, good plan, starting them but not participating; that's cheating, isn't it :-)
  163. # [17:00] <Julian> ack
  164. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> anyway, I have to head off to the sento.. I will be back in about 90 minutes or so
  165. # [17:00] * MikeSmith is now known as Mike^Sento
  166. # [17:00] <anne> pulling out seems more appropriate
  167. # [17:01] <Julian> Mike, so, what *is* the "microdata property value"; is this defined in http://dev.w3.org/html5/md ?
  168. # [17:01] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Microdata (at dev.w3.org)
  169. # [17:03] <Julian> If it's as defined in http://dev.w3.org/html5/md/#values -- that's why I was confused because it depends on the presence @itemprop which isn't even mentioned in H:TML
  170. # [17:03] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Microdata (at dev.w3.org)
  171. # [17:04] <hober> Julian: the microdata property value of element X is the part of X from which a microdata parser would extract a value assuming X is marked up such that the parser would want to do that in the first place.
  172. # [17:07] <Julian> so is this what's defined in http://dev.w3.org/html5/md/#values ?
  173. # [17:07] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Microdata (at dev.w3.org)
  174. # [17:10] <hober> looks like it to me
  175. # [17:24] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10068] Suggest making noscript obsolete but conforming" (8 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0127.html>
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  177. # [17:54] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10068] Suggest making noscript obsolete but conforming <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0130.html> ** [Bug 10104] New: ssss adas asdsd <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0129.html> ** "[Bug 10068] Suggest making noscript obsolete but conforming" (9 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0128.html>
  178. # [18:02] <pimpbot> planet: WebM video support in Firefox 4 Beta <http://blog.pearce.org.nz/2010/07/webm-video-support-in-firefox-4-beta.html>
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  183. # [18:25] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10068] Suggest making noscript obsolete but conforming" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0131.html>
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  192. # [19:25] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10105] New: What about optgroup[disabled]>option? Not :disabled? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0132.html>
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  195. # [19:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10068] Suggest making noscript obsolete but conforming <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0134.html> ** [Bug 10106] New: Define setter for selected <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0133.html>
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  201. # [20:25] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10104] ssss adas asdsd <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0135.html>
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  206. # [21:03] <pimpbot> planet: Making iPad app everytimezone.com work cross-browser <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/making-ipad-app-everytimezone-com-work-cross-browser/>
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  213. # [21:48] * matiassingers is now known as matiassingers|afk
  214. # [22:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@114.48.123.185) (Ping timeout)
  215. # [22:21] * matiassingers|afk is now known as matiassingers
  216. # [22:21] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@114.48.6.78)
  217. # [22:26] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.13)
  218. # [22:38] * matiassingers is now known as matiassingers|afk
  219. # [22:38] * matiassingers|afk is now known as matiassingers
  220. # [22:56] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10083] Remove references to Microdata from within the document <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0137.html> ** [Bug 10068] Suggest making noscript obsolete but conforming <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Jul/0136.html>
  221. # [23:01] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Client exited)
  222. # [23:54] * Quits: dmiles_afk (dmiles@67.161.117.56) (Connection reset by peer)
  223. # [23:54] * Joins: dmiles_afk (dmiles@67.161.117.56)
  224. # Session Close: Thu Jul 08 00:00:00 2010

The end :)