/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2010-08-10 / end

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  4. # [00:14] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10335] New: a height property for the TextMetrics class would be extremely helpful; it is difficult to place text using a width value only. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0136.html>
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  6. # [00:44] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Make HTMLInputElement.files not throw when called at a bogus time. (whatwg r5254) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0040.html> ** device; hixie: Add WEBIDL ref to HTML modules <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0039.html> ** 2Dapi; hixie: Add WEBIDL ref to HTML modules <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0038.html> ** postmsg; hixie: Add
  7. # [01:44] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: typo (whatwg r5255) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0051.html> ** workers; hixie: new class attribute in header <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0049.html> ** webstorage; hixie: new class attribute in header <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0050.html> ** webDB; hixie: new class attribute in header <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/
  8. # [01:45] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9625] select element should be able to suffer from being missing <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0139.html> ** [Bug 10338] End tag of </td> or </th> in "in cell" mode wrongly asserts current node will be "tr" <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0138.html> ** [Bug 10338] New: End tag of </td> or </th> in "in cell" mode wrongly asserts current node will be "tr" <htt
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  10. # [02:15] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Clarify that there's no deadlock when navigating... (whatwg r5256) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0052.html>
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  14. # [03:15] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: clarification (whatwg r5257) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0053.html>
  15. # [03:45] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: typo (whatwg r5262) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0061.html> ** hixie: consistency (whatwg r5261) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0060.html> ** SSE; hixie: typos (whatwg r5260) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0059.html> ** hixie: typos (whatwg r5260) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0058.html>
  16. # [04:16] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: clarifications (whatwg r5264) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0063.html> ** hixie: Rewrite the form intro. Let me know if there's anything in the old intro you think I should have kept. (whatwg r5263) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0062.html>
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  24. # [08:26] * Topic is 'Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2010JulSep/0006.html'
  25. # [08:26] * Set by rubys on Thu Jul 22 17:25:01
  26. # [08:47] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Require spaces between attributes. (whatwg r5268) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0067.html> ** hixie: typos (whatwg r5267) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0066.html> ** hixie: More clarifications. (whatwg r5266) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0065.html> ** hixie: Clarify what happens when accept-charset is empty. (whatwg r5265
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  29. # [09:17] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: typo (whatwg r5272) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0071.html> ** hixie: minor clarifications and corrections (whatwg r5271) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0070.html> ** hixie: Allow UAs to provide encoding override UI. (whatwg r5270) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0069.html> ** hixie: more typos and clarifications (whatwg r52
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  48. # [13:29] <anne5> Julian, you around?
  49. # [13:29] <anne5> Julian, wondering if you played much with HTTP authentication
  50. # [13:30] <anne5> Julian, and can help me out with how to restrict "authenticated" sessions to a particular URL rather than a whole bunch
  51. # [13:33] <Julian> yep
  52. # [13:34] <Julian> so this is a config question?
  53. # [13:34] <Julian> or protocol?
  54. # [13:34] <anne5> I tried something like foobar.php?realm={unique} and then on the server I put the realm parameter to {unique} so the URL is unique and the realm is too
  55. # [13:34] <anne5> but on the protocol level everything seems shared among the unique URLs
  56. # [13:35] <Julian> so each URI has it's own realm?
  57. # [13:35] <anne5> yes, derived from the URL
  58. # [13:35] <Julian> good so far
  59. # [13:36] <anne5> what I tried was have the browser not share the session but it appears that no implementation actually does that
  60. # [13:36] <Julian> so the UA re-uses credentials that it got for realm1 for a different realm2?
  61. # [13:37] <anne5> if this is good so far maybe I should reset the UA to make sure it didn't catch a static realm
  62. # [13:37] <Julian> that keeps happening when trying out things with authentication
  63. # [13:38] <Julian> I think this is supposed to work. You may want to check with Yngwe if it doesn't in O.
  64. # [13:41] <anne5> yes, the UA re-uses credentials
  65. # [13:41] <anne5> would a workaround be using different paths?
  66. # [13:41] <Julian> do you have a public test resource?
  67. # [13:41] <anne5> maybe something like
  68. # [13:42] <anne5> ./foobar.php/{unique}
  69. # [13:42] <anne5> ?
  70. # [13:42] <Julian> wait...
  71. # [13:42] <Julian> which authentication method? Basic?
  72. # [13:42] <anne5> yes
  73. # [13:42] <Julian> and yes, moving the unique thing into the path might help, but we should still investigate this
  74. # [13:43] <Julian> basic, afair, uses the root URI + the realm
  75. # [13:43] <anne5> that's what I read in the spec too
  76. # [13:43] <anne5> would it help if I put the HTML and PHP file on www-archive?
  77. # [13:44] <Julian> me not a PHP person
  78. # [13:44] <anne5> (i'm using basic as the security aspects shouldn't matter for tests and afaict there's otherwise no observable difference as far as xhr is concerned)
  79. # [13:44] <Julian> are you seeing the same thing with other browsers?
  80. # [13:45] <anne5> i'm seeing this in chrome, firefox, safari
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  82. # [13:45] <anne5> not in opera btw now I fixed a bug in my script
  83. # [13:45] <anne5> so opera implements the spec it seems, but that prolly causes us problems :/
  84. # [13:46] <anne5> typical
  85. # [13:46] <Julian> is this related to XHR testing?
  86. # [13:46] <anne5> yes
  87. # [13:47] <Julian> so great; let those other UAs fail the test
  88. # [13:47] <anne5> authentication and serializing Document objects are the last two items on my list
  89. # [13:47] <Julian> and get them fixed
  90. # [13:48] <anne5> interesting idea
  91. # [13:48] <anne5> though a) I don't really want to gate XHR on http auth bugs and b) I really would like to know how the userinfo/username/password thing goes in browsers
  92. # [13:48] <anne5> but I suppose I can let the test in for now anyway
  93. # [13:48] <Julian> understood
  94. # [13:49] <anne5> and make a second test with a unique path and see if that works
  95. # [13:49] <Julian> it would be great to have a public place to collect HTTP tests
  96. # [13:49] <Julian> will discuss over in HTTPbis
  97. # [13:50] <anne5> yeah, i was hoping to get out of networking, but i suppose i might be stuck for a while if i'm going after all the fallout of xhr
  98. # [14:00] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  99. # [14:05] <anne5> bah, path doesn't help much
  100. # [14:06] <anne5> can't believe that this doesn't actually work
  101. # [14:07] <Julian> so let me understand
  102. # [14:07] <Julian> the UA has got credentials for /path1 with realm1
  103. # [14:07] <Julian> accesses /path2 with a challenge for realm2
  104. # [14:07] <Julian> and sends the credentials for realm1
  105. # [14:07] <Julian> ?
  106. # [14:11] <anne5> not exactly
  107. # [14:13] <anne5> when refreshing it starts using the old credentials (unique generated) for request2 for request1 (which had credentials set to null)
  108. # [14:14] <anne5> and uses new unique credentials for request2
  109. # [14:14] <anne5> etc.
  110. # [14:14] <Julian> hmmm
  111. # [14:14] <anne5> instead of keep using null/null for request1 with every refresh
  112. # [14:14] <anne5> and using unique credentials for request2
  113. # [14:15] <Julian> can you produce an HTTP trace and send to www-archive or something like that?
  114. # [14:16] <anne5> lets see if wireshark works
  115. # [14:16] <anne5> god, all of docbook needs to be installed, really?!
  116. # [14:34] * anne5 fetches a .dmg instead
  117. # [14:37] <Julian> go windows, use Microsoft Network Monitor instead :-)
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  119. # [14:48] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9942] The sentence "The shadowBlur attribute specifies the size of the blurring effect." is misleading, It should say "The shadowBlur attribute specifies the level of the blurring effect." <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0140.html>
  120. # [14:53] <anne5> Julian, I just emailed it straight to you
  121. # [14:55] <Julian> ack
  122. # [14:57] <anne5> it seems UAs do a new challenge request when a new user/password are given and otherwise use the old ones straight away
  123. # [14:57] <anne5> without respect for realm and things like that
  124. # [14:59] <anne5> i guess they have to assume the realm is for the whole root
  125. # [15:00] <Julian> so they send the credentials for a realm they saw previously on the server without being asked for it.
  126. # [15:00] <Julian> that doesn't seem to be a bug to me
  127. # [15:01] <anne5> yeah, guess not
  128. # [15:01] <Julian> if they send credentials for realm1, and then, when challenged for realm2, do not get new credentials -- that would be a problem
  129. # [15:01] <Julian> so Opera is more conservative and only sends credentials when asked for them?
  130. # [15:02] <anne5> i haven't been able to debug it properly yet
  131. # [15:02] <anne5> like when i reset all safari settings it still remembers http auth info for the URL
  132. # [15:03] <Julian> oops
  133. # [15:03] <anne5> and i don't have a debug build of Opera running atm
  134. # [15:03] <anne5> it's a bit weird that the client does not transmit the realm to the server
  135. # [15:03] <anne5> then the server could sort out whether it wants to respond with 401 or authenticate
  136. # [15:05] <Julian> well. "Basic" it is
  137. # [15:06] <Julian> wrt "respond with 401 or authenticate" -- what's the difference?
  138. # [15:06] <Julian> I mean, either the credentials are ok (->200) or they are not (->401)
  139. # [15:07] <anne5> yeah, i should just use the credentials as identifier
  140. # [15:07] <anne5> but i wonder what the feature of the realm is in this case
  141. # [15:08] <anne5> it doesn't really allow for meaningful partitioning it seems
  142. # [15:08] <Julian> it's kind of advisory
  143. # [15:09] <Julian> you could have different services running on the same host, with different realms.
  144. # [15:09] <Julian> and the realm name gets displayed, so the user gets reminded what he/she's authenticating for.
  145. # [15:09] <Julian> and the UA can separate the password stores
  146. # [15:10] <Julian> of course that only matters as long as the UA doesn't proactively include credentials without being asked for them
  147. # [15:10] <Julian> which reminds me
  148. # [15:11] <Julian> essentially sending credentials in a request to "another" URI on that server could leak credentials, right?
  149. # [15:11] <anne5> it does seem like a problem of some kind
  150. # [15:12] <anne5> if the server had an echo.php or debugging thingie hosted somewhere
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  159. # [16:19] <pimpbot> changes: mike: build tinkering: only put IDs on links to DFNs, and make sensible IDs (not random-number-like generated ones) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0072.html>
  160. # [16:47] <anne5> so userinfo URLs do not get challenged, open with user/pass do
  161. # [16:47] <anne5> o_O
  162. # [16:48] <anne5> XHR treats them as one concept
  163. # [16:49] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10340] New: The [OverrideBuiltins] annotation on the Window interface IDL block should be removed because it breaks sites <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0141.html>
  164. # [16:49] <anne5> i'm gonna treat that as a bug for now
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  166. # [16:52] <anne5> still not really interoperable this stuff
  167. # [16:52] <Julian> more context please :-)
  168. # [16:53] <anne5> open("get", "http://u1:p1@.../", false, u2, p2)
  169. # [16:53] <anne5> if the u1:p1@ is not there there's always a non-credentialed request first
  170. # [16:53] <anne5> if they are there and u2/p2 are null there's not
  171. # [16:54] <anne5> once plh makes http://test.w3.org/resources/testharness.js work I can put this stuff online
  172. # [16:55] <anne5> (there's some additional tinkering that can be done with the PHP file that also results in varied results among browsers; showing Safari re-using credentials from some earlier request if things not quite match and Chrome and others doing something else
  173. # [16:55] <Julian> well, userinfo is forbidden in HTTP URIs (as of HTTPbis)
  174. # [16:55] <anne5> Opera prompts for userinfo URLs
  175. # [16:55] <anne5> all browsers support it
  176. # [16:56] <Julian> that being said, does it matter what happens on the wire, as long as it's ok according to the protocol def?
  177. # [16:56] <anne5> I suggested making it a SYNTAX_ERR but that's not going to work I think
  178. # [16:56] <anne5> of course, this whole API is what about happens on the wire
  179. # [16:57] <Julian> but I still don't see an interop problem
  180. # [16:58] <Julian> if the crdentials aren't sent in the first request, there'll be a challenge
  181. # [16:58] <anne5> there's a difference in behavior
  182. # [16:59] <Julian> not every difference in behavior is an interop problem
  183. # [16:59] <anne5> you'd be surprised
  184. # [16:59] <Julian> it only would become an interop problem if one of the sides didn't behave properly as per HTTP
  185. # [17:00] <anne5> regarding your email, it's about <meta charset> and friends, not Content-Type
  186. # [17:01] <anne5> anyway, the problem is that they don't behave per the API definition
  187. # [17:01] <anne5> it may be that the API definition is wrong and we should change it
  188. # [17:01] <plh> hi Anne. I didn't hear back from the system folks
  189. # [17:01] <anne5> it may be that implementations decide to change
  190. # [17:01] <plh> and they weren't around yesterday
  191. # [17:01] <anne5> plh, kk, thanks for the update
  192. # [17:01] <plh> so it's difficulty to twist their arms
  193. # [17:02] <anne5> plh, it seems the tests last on my list are surprisingly difficult (at least for me) and I had some other things to take care off so it's not much of an issue
  194. # [17:02] <plh> ok
  195. # [17:03] <anne5> (of course, it would still be nice to develop in public :) )
  196. # [17:03] <Julian> anne, re charset: ack
  197. # [17:03] <plh> anne, take a picture of your screen in the meantine and tweet it :)
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  199. # [17:08] <anne5> heh, i'll be patient
  200. # [17:11] <Julian> anne5, -> http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-11.html#rfc.section.2.6.1.p.7
  201. # [17:11] <pimpbot> Title: HTTP/1.1, part 1: URIs, Connections, and Message Parsing (at greenbytes.de)
  202. # [17:11] <Julian> "The URI generic syntax for authority also includes a deprecated userinfo subcomponent ([RFC3986], Section 3.2.1) for including user authentication information in the URI. The userinfo subcomponent (and its "@" delimiter) MUST NOT be used in an "http" URI. URI reference recipients SHOULD parse for the existence of userinfo and treat its presence as an error, likely indicating that the...
  203. # [17:11] <Julian> ...deprecated subcomponent is being used to obscure the authority for the sake of phishing attacks."
  204. # [17:12] <Julian> So those who didn't like SYNTAX_ERR should come over to HTTPbis and complain.
  205. # [17:12] <anne5> IE9 switched to allowing it
  206. # [17:13] <anne5> i'm not gonna argue with HTTPbis if it hasn't done any research into it
  207. # [17:13] <anne5> that just means i end up losing a lot of time against a group of people who's not very interested in browser conformance anyway
  208. # [17:17] <Julian> thanks for the IE9 info; I just sent email to Microsoft
  209. # [17:18] <Julian> disallowing userinfo was a conscious decision for the sake of security; it didn't happen in HTTPbis
  210. # [17:18] <Julian> back when it was discussed (many years ago), everybody seemed to agree with it.
  211. # [17:19] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10341] New: Please spec img.lowsrc <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0142.html>
  212. # [17:20] <anne5> clearly not everybody
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  214. # [17:21] <anne5> anyway, if somehow all browser vendors are convinced that works for me
  215. # [17:21] <anne5> i don't really see what kind of security is involved here, since it involves usage from an API that allows passing user/password regardless
  216. # [17:26] <plh> anne, are you planning to make the XHR tests using a harness?
  217. # [17:26] <plh> like we're doing for the html tests
  218. # [17:27] <plh> at the moment, it's under http://test.w3.org/html/tests/harness/harness.htm
  219. # [17:27] <plh> and is specific to html
  220. # [17:28] <Julian> anne5, that's true, but on the other hand it would be good if the URIs are treated the same way everywhere.
  221. # [17:28] <anne5> plh, I'm using testharness.js
  222. # [17:29] <anne5> plh, that's it at the moment
  223. # [17:29] <plh> ok
  224. # [17:29] <anne5> plh, they should be easy to wrap and all though
  225. # [17:29] <anne5> plh, testharness.js has the hooks as i understand it
  226. # [17:29] <plh> ok, we're not going to worry about that for the moment then (at least in the html testing task force)
  227. # [17:30] <anne5> i think we should use the same javascript framework as much as possible
  228. # [17:30] <anne5> the rest can easily follow from there
  229. # [17:31] <anne5> (getElementsByClassName tests we donated also use that framework, as do the server-sent events tests I need to submit; will prolly wait until we ship our updated impl)
  230. # [17:31] <plh> agreed
  231. # [17:31] <plh> as you know, if we have to tests apis in html as well, so no need to duplicate the effort
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  238. # [17:59] <anne5> yeah, such as getElementsByClassName :)
  239. # [18:07] <plh> btw, I don't remember if I told that or not: test.w3.org and test2.w3.org have the same content
  240. # [18:07] <plh> might be useful for your XHR tests
  241. # [18:08] <anne5> yeah I knew
  242. # [18:08] <anne5> I have in fact used test2.w3.org somewhere mostly because I thought it would be reliable available and cross-origin
  243. # [18:09] <anne5> Once it is all running I should maybe port one of my evil tests that sets document.domain and then creates an XMLHttpRequest object in a different origin
  244. # [18:09] <anne5> I'll add a note
  245. # [18:11] <anne5> it would be nice to have https too at some point I suppose if someone can provide the scripts that screw up TLS negotiation and such
  246. # [18:12] <anne5> and things such as disallowing https TLS to https SSL and all that fun stuff
  247. # [18:12] <anne5> but I personally don't really want to go there :)
  248. # [18:12] <anne5> gets fricking complicated
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  251. # [19:43] <pimpbot> planet: Coscup2010/GNOME.Asia with strong web focus <http://zecke.blogspot.com/2010/08/coscup2010gnomeasia-with-strong-web.html>
  252. # [20:44] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
  253. # [21:20] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10196] Relationship to xml:id <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0144.html> ** [Bug 10342] New: Make <wbr> element not conforming <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0143.html>
  254. # [21:50] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 9894] The chairs should be required to ensure that decisions result in consistent specifications <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0145.html>
  255. # [22:15] * Joins: anne5 (annevk@84.215.178.93)
  256. # [22:20] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 9894] The chairs should be required to ensure that decisions result in consistent specifications" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0146.html>
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  261. # [23:20] <pimpbot> changes: workers; hixie: try adding registration templates to the spec (whatwg r5273) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0080.html> ** webDB; hixie: try adding registration templates to the spec (whatwg r5273) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0082.html> ** webstorage; hixie: try adding registration templates to the spec (whatwg r5273) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-
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  266. # [23:50] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: consistency (whatwg r5274) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0083.html>
  267. # Session Close: Wed Aug 11 00:00:00 2010

The end :)