/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2010-08-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 20 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [00:54] <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 video ‘buffered’ property available in Firefox 4 <http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/08/html5-video-buffered-property-available-in-firefox-4/>
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  9. # [01:54] <pimpbot> planet: RT @miketaylr: html5 constraint validation api, type=url, type=email, pattern, required, :required {}, :optional {}, landed in firefox! ... <http://twitter.com/diveintomark/statuses/21615828211> ** Looks like people are receiving review copies of "HTML5: Up and Running." I'll send out more as soon as I get them. <http://twitter.com/diveintomark/statuses/21615793707>
  10. # [02:55] <pimpbot> planet: Buy "HTML5: Up and Running" PDF or ePub for under $10: http://oreil.ly/cjrJAY use discount code DDHUR <http://twitter.com/diveintomark/statuses/21617006731>
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  33. # [08:27] * Topic is 'Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2010JulSep/0014.html'
  34. # [08:27] * Set by rubys on Thu Aug 12 17:31:48
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  49. # [11:09] <Julian> MikeSmith, yt?
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  52. # [11:28] <Julian> MikeSmithX, yt?
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  54. # [11:32] <MikeSmithX> Julian: here now
  55. # [11:32] <MikeSmithX> what's up?
  56. # [11:32] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  57. # [11:32] <Julian> ah
  58. # [11:33] <Julian> I recall you tried to use the HTML5 parser as a drop-in SAX impl for XSLT some time ago...
  59. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> no, didn't try it yet
  60. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> it's not doable
  61. # [11:33] <Julian> oh
  62. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> the hooks aren't there yet
  63. # [11:33] <Julian> Oh?
  64. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> but I plan to add them soon
  65. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> yeah
  66. # [11:33] <Julian> Yes, that's what i recalled, and the reason I was asking.
  67. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> I can get the class names for you
  68. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> I am happy if somebody beats me to it
  69. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> but anyway, it is a big priority for me
  70. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> I will get it done soonish
  71. # [11:34] <Julian> if you can dump where you were into a mail that may be helpful
  72. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> in the mean time, Henri has something he wrote
  73. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> I have not started yet
  74. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> but I can point you to the bugzilla bug
  75. # [11:35] <Julian> great
  76. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> man, If you were to give Henri a patch for this, you would be my hero of the month
  77. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> two things are needed: one for DOM and one for SAX
  78. # [11:35] * MikeSmith looks for the bug now
  79. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> found it
  80. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=750
  81. # [11:37] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 750 supply a DocumentBuilderFactory that instantiates HtmlDocumentBuilder, SAXParserFactory that instantiates sax/HtmlParser (at bugzilla.validator.nu)
  82. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> DocumentBuilderFactory that instantiates HtmlDocumentBuilder, SAXParserFactory that instantiates sax/HtmlParser
  83. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> these are JAXP interfaces or something
  84. # [11:37] <Julian> merci
  85. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> so you set java system properties and java xml apps that are JAXP-savvy should use those
  86. # [11:38] <Julian> yes, that was my plan
  87. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> OK
  88. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> I will tell you that it might be useful to examine how those classes are implemented in Xerces
  89. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> I may have a link in that bug
  90. # [11:39] <Julian> and also it seems to be needed to claim that it can be a drop-in replacement :-)
  91. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> yeah, absolutely
  92. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> anyway, I can also say that if you look at how it was implemented in Xerces, it's going to look harder than it is
  93. # [11:39] <Julian> In doubt, I'll look at the Aelfred source code in Saxon 6.5 first :-)
  94. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> hmm
  95. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> yeah, I hadn't thought of that
  96. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> the relevant Xerces classes seem to be full of Xerces-specific cruft
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  98. # [11:41] <Julian> Does Saxon need both or will the SAXParserFactory be sufficient?
  99. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> I think Saxon only needs that SAX one, yeah
  100. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> oh
  101. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> no, perhaps not
  102. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> isn't Saxon constructing a DOM when it does transforms?
  103. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> I don't think it's doing real streaming processing
  104. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> maybe it's doing buffered SAX
  105. # [11:42] <Julian> I think it can do many things
  106. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> OK
  107. # [11:42] <Julian> it has a non-DOM OM that is optimized for XSLT
  108. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> cool
  109. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> so I guess in general the prudent thing to do is do the easiest thing first
  110. # [11:43] <Julian> (you recall, the Xpath data model and the DOM aren't the same thing)
  111. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> and see if it workds
  112. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> yeah
  113. # [11:43] <Julian> I think for Saxon-from-the-commandline we only need Sax.
  114. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> excellent, cool
  115. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> this will obviously be great to have for Jing as well
  116. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> I don't know if you have seen epubcheck
  117. # [11:44] <Julian> (hmmm - "if I need Sax, I call Candy" :-)
  118. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> but it is based on SAX
  119. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> ?
  120. # [11:44] <Julian> Prince said that
  121. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> ah yes
  122. # [11:44] <Julian> about Candy Dulfer
  123. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> cool
  124. # [11:44] <Julian> Yes, I have seen epubcheck, and even fixed two things
  125. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> oh great
  126. # [11:44] <Julian> something like a year ago
  127. # [11:45] <Julian> do the people working on the next epub spec watch the HTML WG?
  128. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> yes
  129. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> some do at least
  130. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> the chair does
  131. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> Markus
  132. # [11:45] <Julian> that's a start
  133. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> do you know him?
  134. # [11:45] <Julian> no. last name?
  135. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> Gylling
  136. # [11:46] <Julian> nope
  137. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> he is great
  138. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> extremely sharp
  139. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> a great chair
  140. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> I joined the epub WG about a month ago
  141. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> but so far have contributed nothing
  142. # [11:46] <Julian> ah
  143. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> I did hear today that they will be making this version epub 3.0
  144. # [11:47] <Julian> when I tried the stuff last year
  145. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> instead of epub 2.1
  146. # [11:47] <Julian> what I found was that they made it way to complicated by re-using too much from other formats.
  147. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> hmm, I wish I could say I was surprised
  148. # [11:47] <Julian> As you can guess I have no problem with XHTML only, but the amount of useless additonal metadata was frightening
  149. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> the thing is, some of the epubcheck project folks also seem to be unable to conceive of being able to do validation on documents that are not well-formed XML
  150. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> yeah, understood
  151. # [11:48] <Julian> I think an XHTML file with a few annotations (RDFa?) plus a CSS file, packaged in a ZIP file, should be sufficient
  152. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> well
  153. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> good luck convincing the group of that
  154. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> they are way past that already
  155. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> or not, maybe
  156. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> the thing is, epub 3.0 will be based on HTML5
  157. # [11:49] <Julian> I thought they were willing to simplify?
  158. # [11:49] <jgraham> Drop the required X and it sounds ideal...
  159. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> yes
  160. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> heh
  161. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> Julian: that is the plan
  162. # [11:49] <Julian> if they're willing to put HTML5 parsers into ebook readers, so be it
  163. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> that is what Markus is working to help drive the group towards, I think
  164. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> it's not about putting HTML5 parsers into ebook readers
  165. # [11:50] <Julian> which brings us back to the start: prove that the HTML5 parser can really be dropped in :-)
  166. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> it's about using the HTML5 parsers that are already going to be in the browser engines on the readers
  167. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> Julian: yep
  168. # [11:50] <Julian> is that true for, for instance, the Sony readers?
  169. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> maybe not now
  170. # [11:51] <Julian> ...for...
  171. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> but if they want to compete, it likely will be
  172. # [11:51] <Julian> hmm
  173. # [11:51] <jgraham> There is an obvious race to the bottom here
  174. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> the era of Sony et al shipping devices with 2nd-rate browser/layout engines in the is going to be a thing of the past
  175. # [11:51] <Julian> it would be great if it was possible to implement a reader without having to deal with all the craziness like document.write and so on...
  176. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> it doesn't make good business sense for one
  177. # [11:51] <jgraham> If Apple (e.g.) make eBooks that don't require XHTML then everyone else will have to follow
  178. # [11:52] <jgraham> Assuming one can use the same content on both
  179. # [11:52] <jgraham> s/both//
  180. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> Julian: it would be great if it were possible to implement an interoperable browser at all without document.write and such
  181. # [11:52] <Julian> I'm not too concerned with iOs based readers as long as they don't get typography right.
  182. # [11:52] <jgraham> Hmm?
  183. # [11:52] <Julian> Mike, of course.
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  185. # [11:53] <jgraham> I would bet that typography is not sufficiently important to the market that platforms will live or ie on it
  186. # [11:53] <Julian> James. like blindly left & right aligning stuff without hyphenation being in place.
  187. # [11:53] <jgraham> *die
  188. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> anyway, some people in the group have been pushing for an XHTML/XML-only requirement for epub 3.0, with a key rationale put forward being that you can't do proper validation with modern schema languages like RelaxNG unless your source is well-formed XML
  189. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> validator.nu is of course an existence proof that refutes that
  190. # [11:56] <Julian> and of course schema-based validation is overrated
  191. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, absolutely
  192. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> anyway, it would also be great to show them that they can do validation with the current epubcheck stuff on non-WF docs too
  193. # [11:56] <Julian> on the other hand, schema-based *documentation* is a great thing
  194. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> just by replacing the parser
  195. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> heh :)
  196. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> I wouldn't know anything about that
  197. # [11:57] <Julian> so, is there a separate download or repository for the parser, or do I need to grab the whole validator stuff?
  198. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> separate download
  199. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> it is in the mozilla repository
  200. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> I will get you the mercurial url
  201. # [11:58] <Julian> tack
  202. # [11:58] <Julian> ack
  203. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/
  204. # [11:58] <pimpbot> Title: htmlparser: Summary (at hg.mozilla.org)
  205. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> hg clone http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/
  206. # [12:00] <pimpbot> Title: htmlparser: Summary (at hg.mozilla.org)
  207. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> should get you what you need
  208. # [12:00] <Julian> just what I needed, thanks
  209. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> whatever progress you make on it, please ping me in a couple days to let me know
  210. # [12:01] <Julian> omg, maven...
  211. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> really?
  212. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> it doesn't use maven within the validator.nu build
  213. # [12:01] <Julian> there's a pom.xml
  214. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> Henri don't like Maven
  215. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> dunno why that's there
  216. # [12:01] <Julian> who does?
  217. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> heh
  218. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> I think you might not need that
  219. # [12:02] <Julian> yep, I'll just drop the source into Eclipse and see what happens
  220. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> I think there are some other build files there which are only for building the C++ sources from teh Java sources
  221. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> yeah, it should be Eclipse-ready
  222. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> Henri uses Eclipes
  223. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> Julian: btw:
  224. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/0542b45959b9/test-src/nu/validator/htmlparser/tools/XSLT4HTML5.java
  225. # [12:05] <pimpbot> Title: htmlparser: test-src/nu/validator/htmlparser/tools/XSLT4HTML5.java@0542b45959b9 (at hg.mozilla.org)
  226. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> XSLT4HTML5 thing that Henri wrote
  227. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> I have never tried it, but I think it intends to be what its name says
  228. # [12:07] <Julian> ok, I'll have a look
  229. # [12:07] <Julian> need to get the dependencies first
  230. # [12:14] <Julian> wow, README.txt really is detailed :-)
  231. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> heh
  232. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> that's what the Web's for
  233. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> no dependencies
  234. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> basically
  235. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> right?
  236. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> no non-optional ones at least
  237. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> "Thanks to Chris Hubick for Mavenization"
  238. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> so I guess the build is Maven-based
  239. # [12:25] <Julian> some
  240. # [12:27] <Julian> hmm
  241. # [12:27] <Julian> nu.xom.Element?
  242. # [12:29] <Julian> ok
  243. # [12:30] <Julian> hey, it builds
  244. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> cool
  245. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> @tell kennyluck I need to know what abbreviation to use in the name of the list; we did "jp" for the Japanese one, but in hindsight we should have used "ja"... I wonder if this one should be "zh"
  246. # [14:06] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: You got it, player.
  247. # [14:25] <Julian> Mike, partial success
  248. # [14:25] <Julian> test
  249. # [14:26] <Julian> MikeSmith, I tested with Saxon 6.*
  250. # [14:27] <Julian> MikeSmith, specify HtmlParser with -x command line option and modify it to accept the namespace related setFeatures calls; and also set the XmlViolationPolicy to ALTER_INFOSET
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  258. # [16:40] <pimpbot> kennyluck: Sent 2 hours and 34 minutes ago: <MikeSmith> I need to know what abbreviation to use in the name of the list; we did jp for the Japanese one, but in hindsight we should have used ja ... I wonder if this one should be zh
  259. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: hey
  260. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> I need a decision about the above
  261. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> maybe not til Monday
  262. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> which is our next regular meeting
  263. # [16:42] <kennyluck> We decided on public-html-ig-zh@w3.org , MikeSmith
  264. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> oh
  265. # [16:43] <kennyluck> Yes, it should have been ja, not jp.
  266. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> remind me who decided on that
  267. # [16:43] <kennyluck> I did.
  268. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> cool :)
  269. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> I like executive decisions
  270. # [16:43] <kennyluck> RDF has language tags for literals. So I am aware of these kind of country vs. language thing.
  271. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> well, I was asking more out of concern for the specific China vs. Taiwan cultural issue
  272. # [16:45] <kennyluck> pingooo and BobChao and I don't care at all.
  273. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> and also because zh usually seems to mean "Mandarin"
  274. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> OK
  275. # [16:46] <kennyluck> But pingooo did mention that some people in Google Taiwan might not like this idea, but whatever.
  276. # [16:47] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: there are zh-tw and zh-hk for specific dialects.
  277. # [16:47] <kennyluck> But they are all zh, so...
  278. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> OK
  279. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> anyway, I have finally got the process initiated
  280. # [16:50] <kennyluck> cool, MikeSmith. :)
  281. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> I'll let you know as soon as it's ready
  282. # [16:50] <kennyluck> OK, we'll work hard on the charter and its translations.
  283. # [16:58] <pimpbot> planet: Video+html5+Popcorn.js=hyper-video <http://standblog.org/blog/post/2010/08/20/Videohtml5Popcorn.jshyper-video>
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  286. # [17:59] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10408] New: Implemented in Chromium per http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13505 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0432.html>
  287. # [18:59] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10409] New: Adoption agency + SVG bug <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0434.html> ** [Bug 10408] Implemented in Chromium per http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13505 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0433.html>
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  294. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/
  295. # [19:59] <pimpbot> Title: public-html-ig-zh@w3.org Mail Archives (at lists.w3.org)
  296. # [19:59] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10411] Why are all the RFCs referenced in .txt versions? The HTML versions are more convenient (and it's silly for HTML to avoid the HTML versions!). <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0438.html> ** [Bug 10411] New: Why are all the RFCs referenced in .txt versions? The HTML versions are more convenient (and it's silly for HTML to avoid the HTML versions!). <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html
  297. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> ready for subscribers
  298. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> please tell pingooo and bobchao to feel free to announce it
  299. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> public-html-ig-zh-request@w3.org with subject: subscribe
  300. # [20:22] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: Ahhhh, thank you so much!!!
  301. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> thanks for having reminded me about it
  302. # [20:23] <kennyluck> Sorry if you feel like I am pushing you. :) We'll handle the charter.
  303. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: I need some pushing now and then
  304. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> well, actually, I don't need it
  305. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> because I'm already being pushed plenty
  306. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> I mean you need to get yourself in the pushing line
  307. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> so you can get chance
  308. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> kind of like a carnival sideshow
  309. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> pay 10 cents for you chance to push the fat man
  310. # [20:25] <kennyluck> Hehe...
  311. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: please give me translated text of the sentence "Chinese-language discussion of HTML5 and related technologies."
  312. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> and I will add it to the info page
  313. # [20:25] <kennyluck> "中文HTML5與相關技術的討論"
  314. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> wow
  315. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> that is compact
  316. # [20:26] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: hold on.
  317. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> you dudes language rocks
  318. # [20:26] <kennyluck> I think it will be better if its in Simplified Chinese...
  319. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> you got compression built it there
  320. # [20:27] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: "中文HTML5与相关技术的讨论"
  321. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: if you give me HTML for a placeholder page, I can put it at http://www.w3.org/html/ig/zh
  322. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> doesn't need to be anything fancy for now
  323. # [20:27] <kennyluck> OK, will do it soon.
  324. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> thanks
  325. # [20:27] <kennyluck> Alright
  326. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> I will put the description in a minute
  327. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> the mailing-list desc
  328. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> I think we should put a big picture of Doraemon at http://www.w3.org/html/ig/zh
  329. # [20:29] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: if that doesn't violate any W3C policy :)
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  332. # [21:31] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: frame.contentWindow (whatwg r5316) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0139.html> ** webDB; hixie: example intro correction (whatwg r5315) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Aug/0138.html> ** webstorage; hixie: Change how localStorage protects from cross-origin accesses so that old Storage objects don't become vulnerable after document.domain is changed (which was rather incons
  333. # [21:31] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10116] HTMLFrameElement is missing contentWindow attribute" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0443.html> ** [Bug 9548] autofocus attribute should be ignored after the load event <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0441.html> ** [Bug 9545] frameborder attribute on <iframe> should be obsolete but conforming <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/
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  341. # [23:32] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10411] Why are all the RFCs referenced in .txt versions? The HTML versions are more convenient (and it's silly for HTML to avoid the HTML versions!). <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Aug/0444.html>
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The end :)