/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2010-09-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Sep 06 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  44. # [13:03] <pimpbot> planet: Searching for the HTML5 Search Input <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/3Tk9YtPkbTo/searching-for-the-html5-search-input>
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  50. # [15:04] <pimpbot> planet: Rant: HTML5 != CSS 3 <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/rant-html5-css-3/>
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  55. # [15:57] <MikeSmith> bug 9135
  56. # [15:57] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9135 faulkner.steve@gmail.com, P3, RESOLVED FIXED, provide an inline link in the canvas section to the 2d context spec
  57. # [15:59] <Julian> Hi Mike.
  58. # [16:00] <Julian> ignoring the WHATWG Wiki issue for a second; removing the link to 2DCONTEXT doesn't seem to be helpful for the reader
  59. # [16:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10556] Document tells people to register canvas context types at WhatWG <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Sep/0125.html> ** [Bug 10556] New: Document tells people to register canvas context types at WhatWG <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Sep/0124.html>
  60. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> Julian: I realize that and I'm dealing with it
  61. # [16:08] <Julian> MikeSmith, ack
  62. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> but thanks for the heads-up about it
  63. # [16:09] <Julian> MikeSmith, if we *did* agree that Wikis are the right solution, would a W3C Wiki work (from your team member point of view?)?
  64. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> Julian: in principle, yes
  65. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> but fwiw, I personally don't like the Wiki approach at all, regardless of where the Wiki is hosted
  66. # [16:10] <Julian> it would be nice to decouple the wiki-vs-registry debate from the whatwg-vs-iana debate
  67. # [16:11] <Julian> agreed
  68. # [16:11] <Julian> maybe the W3C needs to start running registries
  69. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> well, good luck to us all on the decoupling of that debate
  70. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> we have talked about running registries
  71. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> there have been people on the team who were quite outspoken about saying we should not
  72. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> but perhaps we should have the discussion again
  73. # [16:12] <Julian> running a registry *properly* is a lot of work, as we currently see :-)
  74. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> yeah
  75. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> but I am sympathetic to the argument that it should be made as simple as possible
  76. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> while still being robust
  77. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> for lack of a better word
  78. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> maybe I'm nuts but it would seem to me the data should be in, say, a simple database with a simple REST API for getting to it
  79. # [16:14] <Julian> i think trying to please people who aren't willing to put some effort into registration isn't going to yield a good registry
  80. # [16:15] <Julian> there's always a risk wrt scaling
  81. # [16:15] <Julian> consider UAs that would update their link rel knowledge on each startup
  82. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> there is a fine line between making effort and having unnecessary obstacles
  83. # [16:15] <Julian> or daily
  84. # [16:16] <Julian> review is an obstacle
  85. # [16:16] <Julian> is it necessary?
  86. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> those UAs would cause that same problem if they were pulling down the flat registry file every time they started up
  87. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> we have that same problem with DTDs served at W3C
  88. # [16:17] <Julian> right, but the flat file intentionally is hard to process
  89. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> ??
  90. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> what?
  91. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> please make that statement a bit more clear
  92. # [16:17] <Julian> that's why RFC5988-to-be has an alternate format to be distributed to subscribers over a mailing list
  93. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> um
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  95. # [16:18] <Julian> well, look at it. good luck doing machine-processing to extract app data
  96. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> please forgive me if I don't agree that "intentionally hard to process" is an ideal design feature
  97. # [16:19] <Julian> well, it's supposed to prevent the server overload problem the W3C is suffering from wrt DTDs
  98. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> yeah well
  99. # [16:19] <Julian> http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-10.html#registry_format
  100. # [16:19] <pimpbot> Title: Web Linking (at greenbytes.de)
  101. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> the road to hell being paved with good intentions and all that
  102. # [16:19] <Julian> http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.txt
  103. # [16:19] <Julian> indeed
  104. # [16:20] <Julian> I think we got scared by henri's and ian's request that the registry must be machine-readable
  105. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> frankly, I think the design criterion will prove in the end to have been misguided
  106. # [16:20] <Julian> how does validator.nu plan to validate link rels?
  107. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> you'd need to ask hsivonen
  108. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> but probably by keeping a copy in memory
  109. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> as it does for the language-subtag registry now
  110. # [16:21] <Julian> last time I asked I believe he said he was waiting for ISSUE-27 to be resolved
  111. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> and the charset registry too
  112. # [16:21] <Julian> so it would be once per startup?
  113. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> yes
  114. # [16:22] <Julian> what if people use the validator in their own applications, from a command line, re-starting it every time?
  115. # [16:22] <anne> no, it would be cached somehow
  116. # [16:22] <Julian> that would result in exactly what we saw witih Java-based XLST engines and the XHTML DTD
  117. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> Julian: validator.nu does not work that way
  118. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> validator.nu is service that runs over HTTP
  119. # [16:24] <Julian> I know, but the code is free, and people could build offline versions (such as for use in a firefox plugin, as it's already done with tidy and the old W3C validator)
  120. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> Julian: here's what somebody is going to do: they will make a library that puts a convenient front-end API on link-registry queries, and it will then make a request directly to the link registry from that, and you will have the same problem as the DTD problem
  121. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> and they will distribute that library widely
  122. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> and bunches of apps will use it
  123. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> *if* the registry ends up being widely yese, that "intentionally hard to process" design criterion is never going to have any real affect in practice
  124. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> *widely used
  125. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> Julian: I guess we are in agreement about that, actually
  126. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> we are going to have the problem, regardless
  127. # [16:28] <Julian> the issue here is that IANA isn't nearly as prepared for something like this as the W3C
  128. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> solutions include, at one extreme, exposing the data as a distributed service like DNS
  129. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> Julian: well, I don't know what to tell you about that
  130. # [16:29] <Julian> well, the spec says what it says, and people did not complain when it was being discussed
  131. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> people often don't notice or care until anything actually gets deployed
  132. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> telling them, sorry, too late, you missed your chance usually does not fly too well
  133. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> and I could certainly understand if people looking at it objectively would find that hosting registries at sites that aren't prepared for the load needed to serve them does not exactly seem like the most prudent and optimal choice, and wondering if there might be some better way
  134. # [16:31] <Julian> all understood; it's frustrating nevertheless
  135. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> yeah, agree
  136. # [16:32] <Julian> I mean; is the WHATWG wiki prepared to handle that load?
  137. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> no, of course it's not
  138. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> hmm
  139. # [16:32] <Julian> That's why I've been asking for the link relation validation to be tested many times.
  140. # [16:33] <Julian> a static file is more likely to work :-) (how it's generated is a separate issue)
  141. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> this kind of stuff can't really be tested until we have real people needing it
  142. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> oh, it will work
  143. # [16:33] <Julian> I think it's safe advice that there should be different URIs for authoring and retrieval
  144. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> it's just that one or more smart people will just put a convenient and widely used front end on it
  145. # [16:34] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10556] Document tells people to register canvas context types at WhatWG" (4 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Sep/0128.html>
  146. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> but actually, when that happens, I guess it won't be so bad
  147. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> anyway, the getting of the existing registry contents is not the contentious part
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  149. # [17:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10556] Document tells people to register canvas context types at WhatWG" (6 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Sep/0130.html>
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  156. # [18:05] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10557] New: Submission as entity body can't happen for GET, can it? Yet there is a check for it, which also rejects PUT. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Sep/0131.html>
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  162. # [18:35] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10557] Submission as entity body can't happen for GET, can it? Yet there is a check for it, which also rejects PUT. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Sep/0132.html>
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  169. # [21:36] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Fix potential clash with File API. (whatwg r5416) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Sep/0004.html>
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The end :)