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- # Session Start: Tue Oct 26 00:00:00 2010
- # Session Ident: #html-wg
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- # [00:51] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: dropzone 1/5: the new model (whatwg r5646) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Oct/0155.html>
- # [00:51] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10712] Drag and Drop: Add an attribute to identify drop targets <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2967.html>
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- # [01:59] <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 & jQuery/IE Shadow Filter problems <http://doctype.com/html5-jqueryie-shadow-filter-problems>
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- # [02:21] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11140] Subject: Physical Keys and Gestures for "accesskey" attribute The use of ASCII/Unicode code points for key binding has numerous well-known drawbacks. There are vital physical keyboard keys with no Unicode representation. Even for the main alphabet keys sp <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2969.html> ** [Bug 11139] <video poster> and audio-only media <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-htm
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- # [04:52] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2973.html> ** "[Bug 10821] i18n comment 17 : setting input and textarea element direction through browser UI should set the dir attribute and trigger oninput event" (3 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2972.html>
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- # [05:22] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10828] i18n comment 4 : new attribute: bidibreak <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2975.html> ** "[Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2974.html>
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- # [09:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11139] <video poster> and audio-only media <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2977.html> ** [Bug 11145] New: gdfghdf <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2976.html>
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- # [11:54] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11145] gdfghdf <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2978.html>
- # [12:54] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11096] s element still listed as absent <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2979.html>
- # [13:02] <pimpbot> planet: Why video, audio, canvas aren’t self-closing tags <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/why-video-audio-canvas-arent-self-closing-tags/>
- # [13:19] <anne> Julian, you don't want trailing headers separated from normal headers?
- # [13:20] <anne> also, that would mean that API returns different things later on... kind of odd
- # [13:22] <Julian> Hi Anne
- # [13:22] <Julian> not sure; I just wanted to point out it's the same problem
- # [13:23] <Julian> trailer header fields occupy the same namespace, so they do not *need* to be separated
- # [13:23] <anne> it seems that semantically they are used as if in a different namespace
- # [13:23] <Julian> that being said, API-wise it may make more sense to separate them; I just don't think it's absolutely needed
- # [13:23] <anne> at least per what mnot is saying on the list
- # [13:24] <Julian> IMHO they aren't.
- # [13:24] <anne> and per current implementations apparently
- # [13:24] <Julian> For instance, Content-MD5 in a header field means absolutely the same thing as in a trailer, it's just more convenient to produce in a trailer
- # [13:24] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11084] @open on details should reflect as defaultOpen, for consistency with checked, value, and potentially muted. Then a CSS pseudoclass of :open should be created to match open details elements, similar to :checked. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2980.html>
- # [13:25] <Julian> let me have a look at his mail
- # [13:27] <Julian> I don't think Mark said they are different; they just appear in a different part of the HTTP message.
- # [13:28] <Julian> "The chunked encoding modifies the body of a message in order to transfer it as a series of chunks, each with its own size indicator, followed by an OPTIONAL trailer containing header fields." -- http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-12.html#rfc.section.6.2.1
- # [13:28] <pimpbot> Title: HTTP/1.1, part 1: URIs, Connections, and Message Parsing (at greenbytes.de)
- # [13:30] <Julian> thinking of it, this may be something that could need clarification in XHR1.
- # [13:31] <Julian> Is an impl that exposes header fields received in the trailer via getResponseHeaders() non-compliant?
- # [13:32] <anne> I guess it should say something about it
- # [13:32] <anne> I never really looked into trailing headers
- # [13:34] <Julian> where would I look? http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/#the-send-method ?
- # [13:34] <pimpbot> Title: XMLHttpRequest (at www.w3.org)
- # [13:37] <Julian> I don't think it disallows it, they just wouldn't be present at HEADERS_RECEIVED
- # [13:38] <anne> right, I'm saying it should probably disallow it
- # [13:38] <anne> or do implementations expose them?
- # [13:39] <Julian> i don't think anybody does yet. But why forbid it?
- # [13:40] <Julian> I hear you say "interop" already, but...
- # [13:40] <Julian> "A server using chunked transfer-coding in a response MUST NOT use the trailer for any header fields unless at least one of the following is true:
- # [13:40] <Julian> 1. the request included a TE header field that indicates "trailers" is acceptable in the transfer-coding of the response, as described in Section 9.5; or,
- # [13:40] <Julian> 2. the trailer fields consist entirely of optional metadata, and the recipient could use the message (in a manner acceptable to the server where the field originated) without receiving it. In other words, the server that generated the header (often but not always the origin server) is willing to accept the possibility that the trailer fields might be silently discarded along the path to...
- # [13:40] <Julian> ...the client.
- # [13:40] <Julian> This requirement prevents an interoperability failure when the message is being received by an HTTP/1.1 (or later) proxy and forwarded to an HTTP/1.0 recipient. It avoids a situation where compliance with the protocol would have necessitated a possibly infinite buffer on the proxy."
- # [13:41] <Julian> http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-12.html#rfc.section.6.2.1.p.5
- # [13:41] <pimpbot> Title: HTTP/1.1, part 1: URIs, Connections, and Message Parsing (at greenbytes.de)
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- # [13:42] <anne> interop, yes
- # [13:42] * mnot waves
- # [13:42] <anne> hey hey, isn't it late over there?
- # [13:42] <mnot> reasonably so
- # [13:42] <mnot> just got back from my favourite local
- # [13:43] <hsivonen> are trailers actually used in practice?
- # [13:43] <mnot> ... which also happens to be one of the better cocktail bars on the planet
- # [13:43] <mnot> not a lot, no
- # [13:43] <mnot> but the use cases for them are increasing
- # [13:43] <mnot> to the point where they'd be useful if they were actually implemented
- # [13:43] <mnot> intermediaries generally will pass them through
- # [13:43] <mnot> Apache is discussing getting them in
- # [13:43] <Julian> I was just saying that a low-cost way to experiment with them in XHR (even 1) would be to just expose them like regular header fields.
- # [13:43] <mnot> and node now has them
- # [13:44] <mnot> yes
- # [13:44] <mnot> I agree that nothing prohibits XHR from exposing them as headers
- # [13:44] <anne> I don't mind adding support for them at some point, but it would be nice if there was some demand outside the HTTP WG
- # [13:44] <Julian> One could even argue it requires that.
- # [13:44] <anne> yeah, XHR1 has a bug on this point
- # [13:44] <mnot> how is this the HTTP WG?
- # [13:44] <anne> I didn't know about trailing headers
- # [13:45] <Julian> because it doesn't say they can be ignored
- # [13:45] <mnot> I want to use them in my day job, not as some standards wank ;)
- # [13:45] <mnot> trailers can be ignored, unless the client sends TE: trailers
- # [13:45] <anne> sure
- # [13:46] <anne> but if it's just the people that are really familiar with HTTP end up using them I rather not add them ;)
- # [13:46] <Julian> so if the client *does* set "TE: trailers", it also should expose them in XHR, right?
- # [13:46] <mnot> I think the killer app for them immediately is getting firebug et al to do cool things with metadata that comes down them
- # [13:47] <mnot> well, that's tricky; it probably should, but of course no client does
- # [13:47] <anne> right
- # [13:47] <anne> Firebugs can hook into all kinds of layers
- # [13:47] <mnot> true
- # [13:47] <anne> so nothing should stop Firebug from adding this
- # [13:47] <Julian> not supporting something which is optional is one thing, disallowing supporting it is something else...
- # [13:47] <anne> that would indeed be a start for getting this in the spec
- # [13:48] <mnot> true. But it'd be a lot easier if trailers were baked into the client implementations / APIs already (though I acknowledge from your standpoint, that's Not Really Your Problem)
- # [13:48] <anne> Julian, that particular API is for headers _before_ the response entity body
- # [13:48] <mnot> Ok, I'll talk to some folks
- # [13:48] <anne> Julian, allowing contents _after_ the response entity body to influence it would make it unstable
- # [13:48] <mnot> what's the timeline for XHR2?
- # [13:48] <Julian> does it say that?
- # [13:48] <anne> no not yet
- # [13:48] <anne> I already said it has a bug because I didn't know about trailing headers
- # [13:48] <anne> sigh
- # [13:49] <Julian> it may be a feature
- # [13:49] <anne> mnot, there's no timeline really
- # [13:49] <mnot> ok
- # [13:49] <mnot> BTW: I'm not going to Lyon
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- # [13:49] <anne> mnot, though at this point it somewhat feels feature complete
- # [13:49] <mnot> ack
- # [13:49] <anne> mnot, we won't be discussing this there either and decisions are made on the list
- # [13:49] <mnot> understood.
- # [13:49] <anne> (we're discussing the XHR1 test suite I think)
- # [13:50] <mnot> (that was more for Julian's benefit)
- # [13:51] <Julian> ack
- # [13:51] <Julian> arg
- # [13:51] <mnot> sorry
- # [13:59] <mnot> g'night
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- # [14:31] <thugbot> [localhost] MikeSmith: bugzilla problem: HTTP error 503
- # [14:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11146] New: how does that work? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2981.html>
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- # [15:06] <pimpbot> planet: FavBrowser.com: HTML5: Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) vs. Google Chrome 8 vs. Firefox 4 vs. Opera 11 vs. Safari 5 <http://www.favbrowser.com/html5-internet-explorer-9-ie9-vs-google-chrome-8-vs-firefox-4-vs-opera-11-vs-safari-5/>
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- # [16:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10919] Allow role="presentation" to override the default role of any element <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2982.html>
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- # [17:25] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10933] add link types that create hyperlinks to 7.4.2 Focus management <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2988.html> ** [Bug 10932] add area to 7.4.2 Focus management <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2987.html> ** [Bug 10931] Add details or summary to focus management section <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/2986.html> ** [Bug
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- # [17:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10888] Access Command Requirements for HTML5 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3007.html> ** [Bug 10774] fallback for accesskey insufficiently defined <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3006.html> ** [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3005.html> ** [Bug 10888] Access Command R
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- # [18:26] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10888] Access Command Requirements for HTML5 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3016.html> ** [Bug 10778] use element.accessKeyLabel to generate list of available accesskeys <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3015.html> ** [Bug 10888] Access Command Requirements for HTML5 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3014.html> ** [Bug 10777
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- # [18:56] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11148] New: sion. He also enjoys other pleasures.< <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3018.html> ** [Bug 11146] how does that work? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3017.html>
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- # [19:26] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11148] sion. He also enjoys other pleasures.< <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3019.html>
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- # [20:26] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11145] gdfghdf <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3021.html> ** [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3020.html>
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- # [20:56] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: add a warning while we try to resolve the publishing problem <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Oct/0156.html>
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- # [21:08] <pimpbot> 'planet: Mozilla Labs Night: Halloween (I mean Gaming) Edition <\x0311http://mozillalabs.com/gaming/2010/10/26/mozilla-labs-night-halloween-i-mean-gaming-edition/\x0f> \x034\x02**\x0f RT @boiler_plate: HTML5 Boilerplate v0.9.5 Released! Docs, Build Script, Better, Stronger, Faster.\n \t\nhttp://j.mp/a2FIEO <\x0311http://twitter.com/diveintomark/statuses/28811236824\x0f>'
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- # [21:26] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11149] @-rules in CSS are document-global by default. <style scoped> should specify that @-rules used in it are only available within the single scoped sheet (and any imported sheets). <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Oct/3023.html> ** [Bug 11149] New: @-rules in CSS are document-global by default. <style scoped> should specify that @-rules used in it are only available within the single scoped sheet (and any
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- # [22:38] <pimpbot> planet: (500) http://groups.google.com/group/html5boilerplate/msg/722b7f3f4aec2a67 <http://groups.google.com/group/html5boilerplate/msg/722b7f3f4aec2a67>
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The end :)