/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2010-11-04 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Nov 04 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:09] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0159.html> ** "[Bug 10828] i18n comment 4 : at least by default, should constitute a bidi paragraph break" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0158.html> ** [Bug 11211] Need a way to force a line wrap with the bidi semantics of LINE SEPARATOR when necessary. <
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# [00:39] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10821] i18n comment 17 : setting input and textarea element direction through browser UI should set the dir attribute and trigger oninput event <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0162.html> ** [Bug 10819] i18n comment 15 : option element should support the dir attribute and be displayed accordingly both in the dropdown and after being chosen <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010N
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# [01:09] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11203] Canvas security model does not allow for same-origin relaxation <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0169.html> ** [Bug 10807] i18n comment 1 : new attribute: ubi <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0168.html> ** [Bug 11206] Presentational tag [font,b,u,i] CANNOT be removed for many reasons. Three scenarios very good scenarios: 1. HTML5 Mobile sites with BlackBerry
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# [01:39] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10808] text with unknown direction gets corrupted when inserted in content with opposite direction <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0171.html> ** [Bug 11212] New: Make all the radio button group suffering from being missing (instead of only radio's with the required attribute) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0170.html>
# [01:39] <pimpbot> planet: 10K Apart <http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/11/03/10k-apart.aspx>
# [02:09] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10808] text with unknown direction gets corrupted when inserted in content with opposite direction" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0172.html>
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# [05:40] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11214] New: here is coment <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0174.html> ** [Bug 11213] New: here is coment <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0173.html>
# [05:40] <pimpbot> planet: In HTML5 does an <IMG> tag end with a /? <http://doctype.com/html5-does-img-tag-end>
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# [06:40] <pimpbot> planet: Mark Zuckerberg on HTML5 at Facebook <http://blog.mozilla.com/gen/2010/11/04/mark-zuckerberg-on-html5-at-facebook/>
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# [07:10] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11211] Need a way to force a line wrap with the bidi semantics of LINE SEPARATOR when necessary. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0175.html>
# [07:40] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10828] i18n comment 4 : at least by default, should constitute a bidi paragraph break" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0177.html>
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# [08:11] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10819] i18n comment 15 : option element should support the dir attribute and be displayed accordingly both in the dropdown and after being chosen <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0179.html> ** [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0178.html>
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# [08:26] <paulc> zakim, who is here?
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# [08:31] <paulc> rrsagent, make log public
# [08:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, paulc
# [08:32] <paulc> Zakim, this will be HTML-WG-F2F
# [08:32] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, paulc
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# [08:33] <paulc> rssagent, bookmark
# [08:33] <paulc> rrsagent, bookmark
# [08:33] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-irc#T07-30-48
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# [08:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11211] Need a way to force a line wrap with the bidi semantics of LINE SEPARATOR when necessary. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0183.html> ** [Bug 10808] text with unknown direction gets corrupted when inserted in content with opposite direction <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0182.html> ** [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <http://lists.w
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# [08:41] <mjs> second room: #html-wg2
# [08:42] <paulc> It is 8:38 in Lyon and we have only 20 people so far.
# [08:42] <paulc> We are going to continue to wait for more participants to arrive.
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# [08:44] <paulc> ACTION-190?
# [08:44] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-190
# [08:44] <trackbot> ACTION-190 -- Michael(tm) Smith to fix pubrules problems with "author-only" view of the HTML5 specification -- due 2010-12-10 -- OPEN
# [08:44] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/190
# [08:44] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-190: Fix pubrules problems with "author-only" view of the HTML5 specification - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [08:53] <paulc> scribenick: paulc
# [08:53] <paulc> Chair: mjs
# [08:53] <paulc> topic: Introduction of attendees
# [08:54] <paulc> We went around the room and everyone introduced themselves.
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# [08:55] <paulc> Topic: Review of WG deadlines
# [08:55] <myakura> Timeline to Last Call http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
# [08:55] <pimpbot> Title: Timeline to Last Call from Maciej Stachowiak on 2010-09-08 (public-html@w3.org from September 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
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# [08:57] <anne> I'm in DAP atm, guess HTML WG is starting at 9AM?
# [08:57] <anne> will probably miss
# [08:57] <anne> the start
# [08:58] <paulc> See also http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1102-html-plh/#%284%29
# [08:58] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Working Group Update (at www.w3.org)
# [08:58] * oedipus anne, they've already started
# [08:58] <paulc> anne: We started at about 8:45am
# [08:59] <anne> ah ok
# [08:59] <paulc> Current statistics on bugs are available at http://intertwingly.net/tmp/wgstatus.html
# [08:59] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Status (at intertwingly.net)
# [09:00] <paulc> 35 pre-Last Call bugs are still open
# [09:00] <paulc> The Editors have until Dec 8 to resolve these bugs
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# [09:02] <paulc> We need especially to make progress on the Accessibility issues: Media Accessibility and Canvan Accessibility
# [09:02] <paulc> Topic: Working Group charter
# [09:03] <paulc> The Chairs and Team are discussing how to handle our charter that expires on Dec 31
# [09:03] <paulc> Current charter: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html
# [09:03] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Working Group (at www.w3.org)
# [09:04] <paulc> We can either "extend" the date on the charter without changing the "scope" or do a major charter revision that would require AC review and rejoining the WG.
# [09:04] <paulc> The Chairs and Team recommend that we "extend" the date on the charter.
# [09:05] <paulc> plh: Extend by one year, get to LC by May + text in the covering note suggesting the WG can look at Requirements for future work starting in June 2011
# [09:06] <paulc> Topic: Discussion topics for F2F meeting
# [09:07] <paulc> Suggestions by email:
# [09:08] <paulc> Kris's suggestion in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0045.html
# [09:08] <pimpbot> Title: Potential HTML WG TPAC Testing Discussion Items from Kris Krueger on 2010-11-03 (public-html@w3.org from November 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
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# [09:09] <paulc> Media accessibility in: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0020.html
# [09:09] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Media Accessibility Discussion (Was RE: Adopting the media accessibility requirements)) from Janina Sajka on 2010-11-02 (public-html@w3.org from November 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
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# [09:09] <paulc> Frank's second suggestion is A11Y bugs
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# [09:10] <plh> Mark Vickers, Comcast
# [09:10] <paulc> 1. Testing
# [09:11] <paulc> 2. Media Accessibiloity
# [09:11] <paulc> 3. Accessibility bugs
# [09:11] <paulc> 4. Timed tracks issues (part of Media accessibility or separately)
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# [09:12] <paulc> 5. IETF area director and IANA issues (preferably after coffee today)
# [09:12] <paulc> 6. Link relationships (possibly as part of #5)
# [09:13] <paulc> 7. How to participate in the Testing TF - Testing TF 101
# [09:13] <paulc> 8. How to participate in the A11Y TF
# [09:13] * plh was reminded that Maciej did not introduce himself
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# [09:14] <paulc> 9. Applicable specification related to ISSUE-140 + vendor extension syntax
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# [09:14] <paulc> 10. epub possible impacts on HTML
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# [09:15] <paulc> 11. Considerations for HTML as a long term storage format
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# [09:16] * wonsuk Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
# [09:16] <paulc> 12. Guidelines for restricted devices
# [09:17] <paulc> 13.Canvas accessibility
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# [09:18] <paulc> 14. Access to External video content
# [09:19] <paulc> - how to discover locally recorded videos?
# [09:19] <MikeSmith> -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Living_Network_Alliance DLNA
# [09:19] <pimpbot> Title: Digital Living Network Alliance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
# [09:20] <paulc> Looking for an API to do this discovery.
# [09:20] <paulc> Want to find the video elements on a page as well.
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# [09:22] <paulc> 15. New features: challenges and opportunities for accessibility
# [09:23] <paulc> 16. Testing: harness, reference tests, scripting of tests
# [09:23] <paulc> 17. Digital Rights Management (fun topic)
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# [09:24] <mjs> open and raised issues: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/raised http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/open
# [09:24] <pimpbot> Title: Raised Issues - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:25] <paulc> 18. Review of outstanding issues (other than those under other topics)
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# [09:27] <krisk> This would be good to talk the test harness, especially with folks from nokia and tv based devices
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# [09:29] <paulc> Review of Raised issues:
# [09:29] <paulc> Issue-120?
# [09:29] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-120
# [09:29] <trackbot> ISSUE-120 -- Use of prefixes is too complicated for a Web technology -- raised
# [09:29] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/120
# [09:29] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-120: Use of prefixes is too complicated for a Web technology - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:29] <paulc> No one expressed interest in -120
# [09:30] <paulc> Issue-124?
# [09:30] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-124
# [09:30] <trackbot> ISSUE-124 -- nofollow/noreferrer not allowed on <link> -- raised
# [09:30] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/124
# [09:30] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-124: nofollow/noreferrer not allowed on - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [09:30] <paulc> We should do this in the Link Relationships session.
# [09:30] <paulc> Issue-125?
# [09:30] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-125
# [09:30] <trackbot> ISSUE-125 -- Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to single quotes not needed for legacy content -- raised
# [09:30] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/125
# [09:30] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-125: Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to single quotes not needed for legacy content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [09:31] <paulc> issue-126?
# [09:31] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-126
# [09:31] <trackbot> ISSUE-126 -- Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to backslashes not needed for legacy content -- raised
# [09:31] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/126
# [09:31] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-126: Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to backslashes not needed for legacy content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:31] <paulc> No one was interested in discussing -125 or -126
# [09:31] <paulc> Issue-127?
# [09:31] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-127
# [09:31] <trackbot> ISSUE-127 -- Simplify characterization of link types -- raised
# [09:31] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/127
# [09:31] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-127: Simplify characterization of link types - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [09:31] <paulc> We will add -127 to the Link Relations topic
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# [09:32] <paulc> Issue-129?
# [09:32] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-129
# [09:32] <trackbot> ISSUE-129 -- replace or modify the ARIA section of the HTML5 spec -- raised
# [09:32] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
# [09:32] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-129: replace or modify the ARIA section of the HTML5 spec - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [09:33] <paulc> Who do we need to discuss this?
# [09:34] <Joshue> One point of order, is there a call facility for this meeting, so others can dial in?
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# [09:36] <paulc> Can we do this without Steve Faulkner? Could we do this on Friday?
# [09:36] * hsivonen thought steve is in Australia right now
# [09:37] <paulc> At least one person said yes to discuss -129 + accessibility api mappings
# [09:37] <paulc> Might be hard then.
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# [09:37] <paulc> ISSUE-130?
# [09:37] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-130
# [09:37] <trackbot> ISSUE-130 -- allow tables to be used for layout purposes -- raised
# [09:37] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/130
# [09:37] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-130: allow tables to be used for layout purposes - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [09:38] <paulc> Would a session on making a list of arguments on either side would be useful?
# [09:38] <paulc> no volunteers for -130.
# [09:38] <paulc> Issue-131?
# [09:38] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-131
# [09:38] <trackbot> ISSUE-131 -- Should we add a caret location API to canvas, or is the focus API sufficient? -- raised
# [09:38] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/131
# [09:38] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-131: Should we add a caret location API to canvas, or is the focus API sufficient? - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [09:38] * oedipus notes that RichS of IBM is lead on canvas a11y
# [09:38] <paulc> This would be part of the Canvas Accessibility discussion.
# [09:38] <paulc> ISSUE-132?
# [09:38] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-132
# [09:38] <trackbot> ISSUE-132 -- Drop the color input type -- raised
# [09:38] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/132
# [09:38] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-132: Drop the color input type - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [09:39] <paulc> Anyone interested in this topic?
# [09:39] <paulc> No hands for -132.
# [09:39] <paulc> ISSUE-133?
# [09:39] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-133
# [09:39] <trackbot> ISSUE-133 -- Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) -- raised
# [09:39] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
# [09:39] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-133: Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:39] <paulc> Anyone interested in -133?
# [09:40] <paulc> Place this in the General Accessibility topic.
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# [09:40] <paulc> ISSUE-134?
# [09:40] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-134
# [09:40] <trackbot> ISSUE-134 -- Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively -- raised
# [09:40] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
# [09:40] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-134: Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:40] <Joshue> +q
# [09:40] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
# [09:41] <paulc> ack joshue
# [09:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [09:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11215] New: What about folders? On OSX for example some "files" are actually folders. There should be a way to drag in folders too. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0184.html>
# [09:41] <paulc> Add -134 to the Accessibility Bugs topic
# [09:41] <paulc> Issue-135?
# [09:41] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-135
# [09:41] <trackbot> ISSUE-135 -- put back direct link to the W3C version of the canvas 2d context spec -- raised
# [09:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/135
# [09:42] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-135: put back direct link to the W3C version of the canvas 2d context spec - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:42] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [09:42] <paulc> No serious volunteers to discuss -135.
# [09:42] <paulc> Issue-136?
# [09:42] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-136
# [09:42] <trackbot> ISSUE-136 -- would the element be better handled in CSS? -- raised
# [09:42] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/136
# [09:42] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-136: would the element be better handled in CSS? - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:43] <paulc> Maybe Henri and Cynthia could do this over coffee?
# [09:43] * Joins: Martijnc (Martijnc@91.176.212.27)
# [09:43] <paulc> There seem to be three people to discuss -136 but some suggested this is a lower priority
# [09:44] <paulc> ISSUE-137?
# [09:44] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-137
# [09:44] <trackbot> ISSUE-137 -- Since Javascript does not support mode specifiers inside the regular expression, there is no simple way of matching a single word case-insensitively besides turning into [Ww][Oo][Rr][Dd] -- raised
# [09:44] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/137
# [09:44] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-137: Since Javascript does not support mode specifiers inside the regular expression, there is no simple way of matching a single word case-insensitively besides turning into [Ww][Oo][Rr][Dd] - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:45] <paulc> No volunteers to discuss -137.
# [09:45] * Joins: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82)
# [09:45] <paulc> ISSUE-138?
# [09:45] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-138
# [09:45] <trackbot> ISSUE-138 -- "mutate action" for issueing a GET request is misleading -- raised
# [09:45] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/138
# [09:45] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-138: "mutate action" for issueing a GET request is misleading - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:45] <paulc> Suggestion that this is editorial along with -139.
# [09:45] <paulc> ISSUE-139?
# [09:46] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-139
# [09:46] <trackbot> ISSUE-139 -- HTML5 spec mentions Microdata in Acknowledgements -- raised
# [09:46] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/139
# [09:46] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-139: HTML5 spec mentions Microdata in Acknowledgements - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:46] <paulc> Editorial issue - no need to discuss -139.
# [09:46] <paulc> ISSUE-140?
# [09:46] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-140
# [09:46] <trackbot> ISSUE-140 -- clarify the applicability of the term "conforming document" in cases where "applicable specifications" had been used to augment or change the base HTML5 specification -- raised
# [09:46] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/140
# [09:46] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-140: clarify the applicability of the term "conforming document" in cases where "applicable specifications" had been used to augment or change the base HTML5 specification - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:46] <paulc> Already on the list of suggested topics.
# [09:47] <paulc> Reviewing the Open issues:
# [09:47] <paulc> ISSUE-9?
# [09:47] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-9
# [09:47] <trackbot> ISSUE-9 -- how accessibility works for <video> is unclear -- open
# [09:47] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/9
# [09:47] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-9: how accessibility works for is unclear - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:47] <paulc> We have a session on media accessibility.
# [09:47] <paulc> ISSUE-27?
# [09:47] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-27
# [09:47] <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- @rel value ownership, registry consideration -- open
# [09:47] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27
# [09:47] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-27: @rel value ownership, registry consideration - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:47] <paulc> That belongs in the Link Relation session.
# [09:47] <paulc> ISSUE-31?
# [09:47] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-31
# [09:47] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
# [09:47] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
# [09:47] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-31: Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:47] <paulc> ISSUE-80?
# [09:47] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-80
# [09:47] <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
# [09:47] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
# [09:47] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-80: document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:48] <paulc> -31 and -80 overlap and have lots of change proposals. Chairs think we need to either prune the proposals or do a survey with multiple questions.
# [09:49] <paulc> Let's make this a separate session. Maybe part of Accessibility Issue but it might be too big.
# [09:50] <paulc> We might try to spend time prioritizing the a11y issues.
# [09:50] <paulc> ISSUE-56?
# [09:50] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-56
# [09:50] <trackbot> ISSUE-56 -- Bring "URLs" section/definition and IRI specification in alignment. -- open
# [09:50] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56
# [09:50] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-56: Bring "URLs" section/definition and IRI specification in alignment. - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:50] <paulc> We 3 different proposals submitted.
# [09:52] <paulc> Let's add -56 to the IETF topic (after coffee today).
# [09:53] <paulc> ACTION-118?
# [09:53] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-118
# [09:53] <trackbot> ACTION-118 -- Dan Connolly to reformat the document on URLs in HTML 5 as an Internet Draft -- due 2009-05-07 -- CLOSED
# [09:53] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/118
# [09:53] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-118: Reformat the document on URLs in HTML 5 as an Internet Draft - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:53] <paulc> Add this to Link Relation topic.
# [09:54] <paulc> ISSUE-118?
# [09:54] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-118
# [09:54] <trackbot> ISSUE-118 -- Specification breaks semantics of existing link relations "index" and "first" -- open
# [09:54] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/118
# [09:54] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-118: Specification breaks semantics of existing link relations "index" and "first" - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:54] <paulc> Ignore the ACTION mention above.
# [09:54] <paulc> ISSUE-119?
# [09:54] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-119
# [09:54] <trackbot> ISSUE-119 -- Certain relationships take on a special meaning when repeated; other solutions may be cleaner -- open
# [09:54] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/119
# [09:54] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-119: Certain relationships take on a special meaning when repeated; other solutions may be cleaner - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:54] <paulc> Also related to the Link Relation topic.
# [09:54] * Joins: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82)
# [09:55] <paulc> The Link Relation topic is getting quite big.
# [09:55] * Quits: oedipus (chatzilla@70.21.184.131) (Client exited)
# [09:55] <paulc> ISSUE-122?
# [09:55] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-122
# [09:55] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
# [09:55] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
# [09:55] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-122: alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:56] <paulc> Part of Alt text topic.
# [09:56] <paulc> ISSUE-128?
# [09:56] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-128
# [09:56] <trackbot> ISSUE-128 -- Authors should be able to use <figure> where <img> can be used -- open
# [09:56] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/128
# [09:56] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-128: Authors should be able to use where can be used - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [09:56] <paulc> Any interest?
# [09:56] <Joshue> Is ISSUE 122, the @alt mood bug issue?
# [09:56] <paulc> None heard.
# [09:57] <paulc> Suggested topics:
# [09:58] <paulc> 1. Testing TF
# [09:58] <paulc> 2. Media Accessibility
# [09:58] * Joins: artur (BluFudge@217.12.15.52)
# [09:58] <paulc> 2. General A11Y issues
# [09:58] <paulc> 4. Other uses of Timed Tracks
# [09:58] <paulc> 5. IETF IANNA discussion
# [09:59] <paulc> 6. Link Relations
# [09:59] <paulc> 7. How to participate in Testing TF
# [09:59] <paulc> 8. How to participate in A11Y TF
# [09:59] <paulc> 9. Applicable specifications issue-140
# [10:00] <paulc> 10. Epub
# [10:00] <paulc> 11. HTML as long term storage (possible part of 5)
# [10:00] <paulc> 12. Limited devices and HTML
# [10:00] <paulc> 13. Canvas Accessibility
# [10:00] <paulc> 14. External video control on LAN
# [10:00] * Joins: sgondo (sgondo@126.223.174.132)
# [10:01] <paulc> 15. Test harness
# [10:01] <paulc> 16. Alt (issues-31, -80 and -122)
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# [10:01] <paulc> 17. New features - challenges for accesibility
# [10:01] <paulc> 18. DRM
# [10:01] <paulc> 19. ARIA and API
# [10:02] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28) (Quit: kennyluck)
# [10:02] <paulc> 20. element (issue-136)
# [10:03] <paulc> Scheduling: Topic 2 suggested time is 2pm
# [10:04] <paulc> Topic 9 on Friday (Adrian is at Geo Location today)
# [10:04] <paulc> Topic 5 is after coffee Thu morning.
# [10:05] <oedipus> q+ to ask if can we try and group the accessibility topics to maximize A11y TF participation
# [10:05] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [10:05] <paulc> Should topic 20 be generalized into what is valid?
# [10:05] * Quits: sgondo (sgondo@126.223.174.132) (Quit: sgondo)
# [10:06] <paulc> What is the bug that relates to valid or not?
# [10:06] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838
# [10:06] <pimpbot> 10838: kennyluck, P3, RESOLVED WONTFIX, Make conforming.
# [10:08] <kliehm> s/2. General A11Y issues/3. General A11Y issues/
# [10:08] <oedipus> ack me
# [10:08] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask if can we try and group the accessibility topics to maximize A11y TF participation
# [10:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:09] <Julian> s/IANNA/IANA/
# [10:09] <oedipus> can we try and group the accessibility topics to maximize A11y TF participation -- members are on "stand-by" for notice of when need to be available
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# [10:11] <oedipus> q+ to ask if we can group the accessibility topics to maximize A11y TF participation -- members are on "stand-by" for notice of when need to be available
# [10:11] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
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# [10:16] * dbaron wonders if there's a page somewhere with HTML WG meeting schedule/agenda
# [10:16] <Julian> dbaron, still working on it
# [10:16] <paulc> 21. HTML as a syndication format
# [10:16] <anne> dbaron, agenda will be on the wiki after we figured it out
# [10:17] * Quits: gavin__ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
# [10:17] <Julian> "in syndication formats"?
# [10:17] <anne> (not sure which wiki, mjs didn't say)
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# [10:17] <MikeSmith> I should rightly raise my hand for everything
# [10:17] <MikeSmith> every topic
# [10:17] <oedipus> dbaron, there is an HTML5 "breakout room" in #html-wg2
# [10:17] <MikeSmith> but I'm only raising my hand on stuff that I'm actually prepared to talk about myself
# [10:18] * kliehm zakim, who's here?
# [10:18] * Zakim sorry, kliehm, I don't know what conference this is
# [10:18] * Zakim sees on irc: gavin__, shepazu, dbaron, r12a-nb, oedipus, artur, igarashi, adam, Martijnc, jun, aizu_, gondo, kliehm, hYamada_, taisukef_, adrianba, ljh, yuma_1985, yael, scottv,
# [10:19] * Zakim ... frankolivier, Joshue, MichaelC, wonsuk, freedom, davidC, mav, homata, anne, MikeSmith, yongil_jang, parkjy, Marco_Ranon, Kai, krisk, eliot, Julian, dsinger, shan, mjs, plh,
# [10:19] * Zakim ... Zakim, paulc, weinig, myakura, inimino, arronei, krijnh, Lachy, webr3, beverloo, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, pimpbot, phenny, sideshow, ed,
# [10:19] * Zakim ... trackbot, RRSAgent
# [10:19] * oedipus kliehm, there isn't a dail-in for this meeting, as i understand
# [10:20] * kliehm I rather wondered who's present in the room... ;)
# [10:21] <oedipus> kliehm, there were intros, but not minuted -- i'm playing "fly-on-the-wall" courtesy of MikeTMSmith and skype
# [10:21] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
# [10:21] <paulc> Votes of interest:
# [10:22] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
# [10:22] <paulc> Item 1: 7
# [10:22] <paulc> Item 2a: 9+
# [10:22] <paulc> Item 2b: 12+
# [10:22] <paulc> Item 4: 7
# [10:23] <paulc> Item 5: 8
# [10:23] <Marco_Ranon> +1 to 2b (I'll be there after the break)
# [10:23] <paulc> Item 6: 4
# [10:23] <paulc> Item 7 - fold into item 1
# [10:23] <paulc> item 8 - fold into 2b
# [10:23] <paulc> Item 9: 3
# [10:23] <paulc> item 10: 9
# [10:24] <paulc> item 11: fold into item 5
# [10:24] <paulc> item 12: 7
# [10:24] <paulc> item 13: 7
# [10:24] <paulc> item 14: 2
# [10:24] <paulc> item 15 - fold into item 1
# [10:24] <paulc> item 16: fold into 2b
# [10:24] <paulc> item 17: 5
# [10:24] <paulc> item 18: 3
# [10:25] <paulc> Item 19: 7
# [10:25] <paulc> item 20: 4
# [10:25] <paulc> Item 21: 1
# [10:25] <anne> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Apvkq1IRZaQVdFItdlZoYkMxaV9HN21jQ1BHRUl0X1E&hl=en&authkey=CJmm740B
# [10:25] * Quits: Joshue (Joshue@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
# [10:25] <oedipus> anne, is that URI for the agenda?
# [10:26] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
# [10:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [10:26] * kliehm rrsagent, set logs world-visible
# [10:26] * RRSAgent I have made the request, kliehm
# [10:27] <oedipus> would it be possible to use the wiki to post the agenda -- google spreadsheets aren't accessible
# [10:27] <Lachy> Is there going to be telcon available for this meeting later, so I could call in for specific topics?
# [10:27] <MikeSmith> q?
# [10:27] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [10:28] <MikeSmith> paulc, not oedipus on the queue
# [10:28] <MikeSmith> *note
# [10:28] * oedipus i am on queue to ask a specific question
# [10:28] <oedipus> ack me
# [10:28] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask if we can group the accessibility topics to maximize A11y TF participation -- members are on "stand-by" for notice of when need to be available
# [10:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:29] * plh apoligizes for not following the meeting closely. trying to do two things at a time.
# [10:30] * oedipus thanks, mike
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# [10:31] * plh rahh, I get a password request for the spreadsheet :(
# [10:31] <oedipus> after agenda is set, could it be ported to the wiki, as google spreadsheets aren't acccessible
# [10:34] <anne> plh, really?
# [10:34] <anne> hmm
# [10:34] <anne> it's open
# [10:35] <anne> try again
# [10:35] <kliehm> I'm editing a wiki page right now to transfer the spreadsheet contents
# [10:35] <anne> made it public to the web
# [10:35] * oedipus thank you VERY much kliehm
# [10:35] * oedipus just tell me when and i'll be there
# [10:36] <plh> ah, I found out that's because I reject google cookies
# [10:36] * plh only accepts chocolate cookies
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# [10:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11213] here is coment <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0185.html>
# [10:41] <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 Testing <http://www.w3.org/QA/2010/11/html5_testing.html>
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# [10:42] <paulc> We are breaking for coffee until 11:00 local time.
# [10:43] <paulc> There will be two sessions at 11:00am
# [10:43] <paulc> #html-wg will be doing General Accessibility topic
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# [10:43] <paulc> #html-wg2 will be doing IETF (item 5)
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# [10:48] <kliehm> Agenda for today and tomorrow: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda
# [10:48] <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2010 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [10:49] <oedipus> kliehm, thank you VERY much
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# [10:50] <oedipus> kliehm, does room 3A accord with #html-wg and 3B with #html-wg2?
# [10:50] <plh> yes
# [10:50] * oedipus plh, thanks
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# [10:57] <myakura> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [10:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html myakura
# [10:57] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
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# [11:01] <myakura> Meeting: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A)
# [11:01] <myakura> rrsagent, make minutes
# [11:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html myakura
# [11:01] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
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# [11:06] * oedipus i wish someone would take all of the caffeine removed from decaffinated coffee would be recycled to produce double-caffinated coffee...
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# [11:07] <mjs> oedipus, +1
# [11:07] * oedipus :)
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# [11:08] <mjs> IETF topic about to start in room 3b / #html-wg2
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# [11:11] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11212] Make all the radio button group suffering from being missing (instead of only radio's with the required attribute) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0189.html> ** [Bug 11206] Presentational tag [font,b,u,i] CANNOT be removed for many reasons. Three scenarios very good scenarios: 1. HTML5 Mobile sites with BlackBerry8xxx and 9xxx support 2. HTML5 Emails 3. Legacy content 4. Injected legacy content vi
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# [11:16] <eliot> ScribeNick: eliot
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# [11:17] <eliot> topic: general accessibility
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# [11:19] <oedipus> thanks to kleihm for emailing agenda to public-html-a11y -- notified silvia directly about general and media discussions
# [11:20] <Stevef> is there no dial in for the meetings?
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# [11:21] * Joins: mav (mav@84.14.50.82)
# [11:22] * oedipus on IRC are oedipus, Stevef, and silvia -- kliehm, are you there physically?
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# [11:23] * oedipus on IRC are oedipus, Stevef, and silvia -- kliehm, are you there physically?
# [11:23] <MichaelC> zakim, code?
# [11:23] <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC, I don't know what conference this is
# [11:24] * oedipus SteveF about to invoke zakim
# [11:24] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 90 minutes?
# [11:24] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)10:21Z scheduled with code 26635 (CONF5) for 90 minutes until 1151Z
# [11:24] * MichaelC zakim, call rhone_3a
# [11:24] * Zakim ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [11:24] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)10:21Z has now started
# [11:24] * Joins: yael (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [11:24] * silvia I won't call in until we get to media stuff
# [11:25] <paulc> zakim, who is here?
# [11:25] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
# [11:25] <Zakim> On IRC I see yael, Marco_Ranon, adrianba, mav, jun, Lachy, jorlow, ljh, adam, yuma_1986, eliot, Julian, aizu_, beverloo, mjs, TabAtkinsTPAC, Norm, wsgondo, Stevef, silvia,
# [11:25] <Zakim> ... kennyluck, gavin__, shepazu, r12a-nb, oedipus, artur, Martijnc, kliehm, hYamada_, taisukef_, scottv, frankolivier, MichaelC, wonsuk, freedom, davidC, homata, anne, MikeSmith,
# [11:25] <Zakim> ... Kai, dsinger, shan, plh, Zakim, paulc, weinig, myakura, inimino, arronei, krijnh, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, pimpbot, phenny, sideshow,
# [11:25] * oedipus hey, zakim, i'm on the phone
# [11:25] <Zakim> ... ed, trackbot
# [11:25] * MichaelC zakim, who's on the phone?
# [11:25] * Zakim sees on the phone: no one
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# [11:26] <MichaelC> zakim, this is 26635
# [11:26] <Zakim> MichaelC, this was already Team_(html-wg)10:21Z
# [11:26] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches Team_(html-wg)10:21Z
# [11:26] * MichaelC zakim, who's on the phone?
# [11:26] * Zakim sees on the phone: no one
# [11:26] <eliot> this isthe general a11y session
# [11:26] * MichaelC darn, zakim isn't registering participants
# [11:26] <eliot> Topic list as first item
# [11:26] <Stevef> MichaelC: I am on the phone
# [11:26] <eliot> brief overview of how to participate?
# [11:27] <eliot> a pitch for how to get people
# [11:27] <eliot> janina: that would be helpful
# [11:27] <eliot> ...
# [11:27] * MichaelC as long as you're here, even though I can't see you ;)
# [11:27] * oedipus i am on the phone, too -- silvia said she'd call in for media discussion
# [11:27] <kliehm> ISSUE-133?
# [11:27] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-133
# [11:27] <trackbot> ISSUE-133 -- Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) -- raised
# [11:27] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
# [11:27] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-133: Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [11:27] <eliot> Issue-133?
# [11:27] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-133
# [11:27] <trackbot> ISSUE-133 -- Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) -- raised
# [11:27] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
# [11:27] <eliot> Issue-134?
# [11:27] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-134
# [11:27] <trackbot> ISSUE-134 -- Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively -- raised
# [11:27] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
# [11:27] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-134: Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [11:27] <oedipus> present+ Gregory_Rosmaita,Steve_Faulkner
# [11:27] * MichaelC just occurred to me, hope both breakouts don't scribe to the same channel...
# [11:28] * oedipus no, the other is in #html-wg2
# [11:28] <eliot> CYS: can we look at the bug list to see if there are any more?
# [11:28] * MichaelC good; me is going over there to listen anyway...
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# [11:29] <oedipus> longdesc
# [11:29] <oedipus> summary for table
# [11:29] <eliot> cys: did alt text get rolled into this?
# [11:29] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
# [11:29] <eliot> Issue-122?
# [11:29] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-122
# [11:29] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
# [11:29] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
# [11:29] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-122: alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [11:29] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
# [11:29] <oedipus> HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
# [11:29] <pimpbot> Title: Verbose desc reqs - HTML accessibility task force Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:29] * oedipus i hate pimpbot
# [11:30] <eliot> assume alt is folded into this
# [11:30] <eliot> ssue-31?
# [11:30] <eliot> issue-31?
# [11:30] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-31
# [11:30] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
# [11:30] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
# [11:30] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-31: Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [11:30] <eliot> issue-80?
# [11:30] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-80
# [11:30] <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
# [11:30] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
# [11:30] <oedipus> 2 high topic issues: verbose descriptor and summary for TABLE
# [11:30] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-80: document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [11:30] <eliot> issue-122?
# [11:30] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-122
# [11:30] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
# [11:30] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
# [11:30] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-122: alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [11:30] <eliot> janina
# [11:30] * MichaelC ping me if needed; I want to listen in on IETF
# [11:30] <oedipus> 2 high topic issues: verbose descriptor and summary for TABLE
# [11:30] <eliot> ..how to participate
# [11:30] <eliot> ...alt
# [11:30] <eliot> ..the other one.
# [11:31] <eliot> ...general overview of bugs
# [11:31] * Quits: frankolivier (540e3252@78.129.202.38) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [11:31] <eliot> ...can people suggest specific ones?
# [11:31] <oedipus> 2 high topic issues: verbose descriptor and summary for TABLE
# [11:31] <eliot> Topic: How to be a part
# [11:31] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@84.14.50.82)
# [11:31] <eliot> if you're in html, you qualify
# [11:31] <paulc> Issue to be covered -133, -134, and alt (-31, -80, -122)
# [11:31] <eliot> html mapping team
# [11:31] <kliehm> present+ Janina_Sajka Cynthia_Shelly Paul_Cotton Joshue_O_Connor Martin_Kliehm Artur_Ortega Marco_Ranon
# [11:32] <eliot> cys: how AT gets stuff
# [11:32] <oedipus> HTML WG Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
# [11:32] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853 oedipus, P2, RESOLVED NEEDSINFO, HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism
# [11:32] <pimpbot> 10853: oedipus, P2, RESOLVED NEEDSINFO, HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism
# [11:32] <eliot> ...subteam on canvas a11y
# [11:32] <eliot> ...subteam for bug triage w/ respect to a11y
# [11:33] <eliot> ...general discussion of issues around a11y, right before html wg call
# [11:33] <oedipus> HTML5 Accessibility Task Force wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html/wiki
# [11:33] <pimpbot> Title: HTML accessibility task force Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:33] <eliot> ...wd very much like to have ppl involved in those areas
# [11:33] <eliot> ...need more people w/ less experience w/ a11y and who can provide insight
# [11:33] <eliot> ...and who can bridge between q11yTF and the broader wg
# [11:34] <eliot> janina: thanks, cynthia
# [11:34] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Ping timeout)
# [11:34] <eliot> ...to summarize: what works for the a11y TF is to set up subteams
# [11:34] <eliot> ...there are a lot of topics around a11y and html5
# [11:34] <eliot> ...subteams focus on particular aspects
# [11:34] <oedipus> HTML5 Accessibility Task Force wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html/wiki/Canvas
# [11:34] <pimpbot> Title: Canvas - HTML accessibility task force Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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# [11:34] <eliot> ...One key diff between a11y TF and htmlwg
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# [11:35] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Sub-Group
# [11:35] <pimpbot> Title: Media Sub-Group - HTML accessibility task force Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:35] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: agreed with Janina that the a11y subteams have been effective
# [11:35] <eliot> ...is that the TF uses teleconferences. not essential to participate in the teleconference
# [11:35] <eliot> ...work via wiki and other means
# [11:35] <eliot> ...work hard to find good times, though it's sometimes difficult
# [11:36] <oedipus> note that bugs are marked a11y for accessibility / a11ytf for bugs HTML A11y TF has identified as pertaining to a11y
# [11:36] <eliot> ...strong core group of a11y people and developers
# [11:36] <eliot> ...many track the activity via mail and other mechanisms
# [11:36] <eliot> ...questions?
# [11:36] <eliot> Topic: Alt
# [11:36] <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-html-a11y
# [11:36] <eliot> janina: recommendations forward from the a11y TF some time ago
# [11:36] <pimpbot> Title: public-html-a11y@w3.org Mail Archives (at lists.w3.org)
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# [11:37] <eliot> Josh: question around Alt, mood, graphics: related to Lady of Shallott?
# [11:37] <eliot> cys: steve Faulkner wrote a document
# [11:37] <eliot> josh: many contributed to that
# [11:38] <myakura> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
# [11:38] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives (at dev.w3.org)
# [11:38] <eliot> cys: there's that document published, but the adviced offereds isn't consistent with advice offered in the html spec
# [11:38] * Joins: janina (janina@84.14.50.82)
# [11:38] <eliot> ...anyone know the status of the issue for that?
# [11:39] <oedipus> SteveF, could you update us on the alt techs document?
# [11:39] <Stevef> yes
# [11:39] <MikeSmith> issue-31?
# [11:39] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-31
# [11:39] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
# [11:39] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
# [11:39] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-31: Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [11:39] <MikeSmith> issue-80?
# [11:39] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-80
# [11:39] <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
# [11:39] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
# [11:39] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-80: document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [11:39] <eliot> josh: did we not recommend that document be absorbed?
# [11:39] <eliot> cys: we wanted it separate
# [11:40] <eliot> ...remove anything in the spec itself
# [11:40] <oedipus> note: SteveF is on the phone and is willing to update on alt techs doc
# [11:40] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
# [11:40] <pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)
# [11:40] <eliot> janina: gen; principle we agreed...we wanted documents about, best practices, etc. to be outside of the spec
# [11:40] <eliot> paul: pointer to the status page
# [11:40] * Joins: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43)
# [11:41] <eliot> paul: need to eliminate change proposals
# [11:41] <eliot> ..in order to make a recommendation, recording rationale for recomendations
# [11:41] <oedipus> q+ to ask if survey would be a negative survey such as those recently used -- i.e. you can't comment if you agree with someone but only if one has original comment
# [11:41] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [11:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 11212] Make all the radio button group suffering from being missing (instead of only radio's with the required attribute)" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0190.html>
# [11:42] <oedipus> q?
# [11:42] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [11:43] <oedipus> 1. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091209
# [11:43] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091209 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:43] <oedipus> 2. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706
# [11:43] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:43] <oedipus> 3. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100707
# [11:43] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100707 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:44] <oedipus> 4. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126
# [11:44] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:44] <oedipus> 5. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0050.html
# [11:44] <pimpbot> Title: Change proposals for ISSUE-31 and ISSUE-80 from Ian Hickson on 2010-07-15 (public-html@w3.org from July 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
# [11:44] <oedipus> 6. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504
# [11:44] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:44] <oedipus> 7. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510
# [11:44] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:45] <oedipus> what about the WAI CG/PF recommendations?
# [11:45] * Quits: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [11:46] <oedipus> need to discuss IMG and FIGURE
# [11:46] <eliot> cyn: let's talk about conformance
# [11:46] * Quits: scottv (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [11:46] <Joshue> Scribe: Joshue
# [11:47] <Joshue> Cyns: Lets look at 2
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# [11:47] <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706
# [11:47] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706
# [11:47] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:47] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:47] * oedipus pimp-slapped
# [11:47] <Joshue> Review of the change proposal.
# [11:47] <myakura> ScribeNick: Joshue
# [11:48] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706#Details
# [11:48] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [11:48] <oedipus> suggested text: "conformance checker must report the lack of an alt attribute as an error unless one of the conditions listed below applies:
# [11:48] <oedipus> * the <img> element is located within a <figure> element that has a non-empty <figcaption> element, or
# [11:48] <oedipus> * a non-empty aria-labelledby attribute is present. "
# [11:48] <Joshue> GJR: This is from Lauras change proposal.
# [11:49] * Joins: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43)
# [11:50] <Joshue> Cyns: That sounds like the PF consensus.
# [11:50] <Joshue> JS: Yes
# [11:50] <oedipus> WAI CG Consensus Resolution on Text Alternatives in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
# [11:50] <pimpbot> Title: WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
# [11:50] <Joshue> Lauras Second proposal http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100707
# [11:50] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100707 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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# [11:51] <Joshue> Cyns; Lets look at both.
# [11:51] <oedipus> Replace the Current Text: A conformance checker must report the lack of an alt attribute as an error unless one of the conditions listed below applies: * The title attribute is present and has a non-empty value (as described above). * The img element is in a figure element that contains a figcaption element that contains content other than inter-element whitespace (as...
# [11:51] <oedipus> ...described above). * The conformance checker has been configured to assume that the document is an e-mail or document intended for a specific person who is known to be able to view images. * The document has a meta element with a name attribute whose value is an ASCII case-insensitive match for the string "generator". (This case does not represent a case where the document...
# [11:51] <oedipus> ...is conforming, only that the generator could not determine appropriate alternative text — validators are required to not show an error in this case to discourage markup generators from including bogus alternative text purely in an attempt to silence validators.) [edit] With Suggested Text A conformance checker must report the lack of an alt attribute as an error unless the <img>...
# [11:51] <oedipus> ...element is located within a <figure> element that has a non-empty <figcaption> element.
# [11:52] * Quits: kfirst (chatzilla@138.232.35.154) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13pre/20101028231129])
# [11:53] <oedipus> Replace the Current Text: A conformance checker must report the lack of an alt attribute as an error unless one of the conditions listed below applies: * The title attribute is present and has a non-empty value (as described above). * The img element is in a figure element that contains a figcaption element that contains content other than inter-element whitespace (as described above). *...
# [11:53] <oedipus> ...The conformance checker has been configured to assume that the document is an e-mail or document intended for a specific person who is known to be able to view images. * The document has a meta element with a name attribute whose value is an ASCII case-insensitive match for the string "generator". (This case does not represent a case where the document is conforming, only that the...
# [11:53] <oedipus> ...generator could not determine appropriate alternative text — validators are required to not show an error in this case to discourage markup generators from including bogus alternative text purely in an attempt to silence validators.) Suggested Text A conformance checker must report the lack of an alt attribute as an error unless the <img> element is located within a <figure> element...
# [11:53] <eliot> Proposal from the editor: 5. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0050.html
# [11:53] <pimpbot> Title: Change proposals for ISSUE-31 and ISSUE-80 from Ian Hickson on 2010-07-15 (public-html@w3.org from July 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
# [11:53] <oedipus> ...that has a non-empty <figcaption> element.
# [11:53] <oedipus> WAI CG Consensus Resolution on Text Alternatives in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
# [11:53] <pimpbot> Title: WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
# [11:53] * Joshue thanks!
# [11:53] <eliot> ...suggests no change. Should be surveyed. This does not overlap with others
# [11:53] <Joshue> Cyns; This is one of the proposals that needs to be surveyed
# [11:54] <Joshue> JS: Ok, we are giving the chairs some guideance.
# [11:54] * oedipus am on queue to ask question about survey format -- negative or positive
# [11:54] * Quits: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [11:54] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Quit: Leaving)
# [11:54] <Joshue> Cyns: This suggestion sounds like HTML4.
# [11:55] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
# [11:56] <Joshue> Cyns; I have a prefer for role="presentaion" etc to be valid and it would be invalid to not have some semantic representation a la WAI guidance , http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
# [11:56] <pimpbot> Title: WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
# [11:56] <oedipus> GJR objects to requiring a non-native labelledby -- will aria-labelledby be supported by UAs without ATs to use CSS to visually bind description with image
# [11:56] <artur> q+
# [11:56] * Zakim sees oedipus, artur on the speaker queue
# [11:56] <Joshue> Cyns: Any one of the 3 works, or leave the spec as it is.
# [11:56] <oedipus> JOC: what about FIGURE and FIGCAPTION?
# [11:57] <Joshue> SF: What about what was agreed in the WAI guidance.
# [11:57] <Joshue> Cys: The most flexible is only @alt like HTML 4 or do nothing..
# [11:57] <Joshue> +q
# [11:57] * Zakim sees oedipus, artur, Joshue on the speaker queue
# [11:57] <janina> q?
# [11:57] * Zakim sees oedipus, artur, Joshue on the speaker queue
# [11:58] <Joshue> AO: The problem with conformance checks is that in a DTD there is a lack of specificity, are elements implied or explicit.
# [11:58] <artur> q-
# [11:58] * Zakim sees oedipus, Joshue on the speaker queue
# [11:58] <Joshue> MS: We don't want people using DTDs.
# [11:58] <oedipus> ack oe
# [11:58] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask if survey would be a negative survey such as those recently used -- i.e. you can't comment if you agree with someone but only if one has original comment
# [11:58] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
# [11:58] <janina> q?
# [11:58] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
# [11:58] <oedipus> GJR objects to requiring a non-native labelledby -- will aria-labelledby be supported by UAs without ATs to use CSS to visually bind description with image
# [11:58] <Joshue> GJR: We have talked about surveys, they have been of a negative form generally.
# [11:59] <Joshue> Cyns: I think there is API mapping, that labelledby would fullfill the name role in the platform API, is that what you mean?
# [12:00] <Joshue> GJR: Its important that it is native, so CSS etc can be applied.
# [12:00] <Joshue> Cyns; Can that not be done with labelledby @?
# [12:00] <Joshue> SF: You can do that.
# [12:00] <Joshue> GJR: Ok
# [12:00] <MikeSmith> s/Cyns;/Cyns:/
# [12:01] <Joshue> JS: We recommend that the chairs survey on three of these.
# [12:01] <oedipus> GJR: want to ensure that won't need AT to reap benefits of aria-* attribues and features
# [12:01] <Joshue> Cyns: can someone take an action item to conflate 2 and 4?
# [12:01] <Joshue> PC: So GJR, do you want to restate your question?
# [12:02] <Joshue> GJR: The surveys are negative, so only if your comment is originally negative can you contribute.
# [12:02] <Joshue> JS: Why?
# [12:02] <Joshue> GJR: If you can only add a new comment in this way, it is not truly reflective of positive support.
# [12:02] <Joshue> +1 to GJR, he has a good point.
# [12:02] * Joins: kensaku (kensaku.ko@84.14.50.82)
# [12:03] <Joshue> PC: The intent is to find a way of generating the least dissent.
# [12:03] <Joshue> general discussion on w3c survey methodologies
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# [12:04] <Joshue> PC: Comments noted.
# [12:04] <Joshue> JS: This topic does need a broader discussion.
# [12:04] <oedipus> GJR: objects to surveys being cited as having "low participation" when rules covering survey are so stringent
# [12:05] <oedipus> can someone put the combined proposals into IRC?
# [12:07] <eliot> Action: janina To: Janina to ask Laura to combine working from proposal items 2 and 4
# [12:07] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [12:07] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [12:07] <trackbot> Created ACTION-191 - To: Janina to ask Laura to combine working from proposal items 2 and 4 [on Janina Sajka - due 2010-11-11].
# [12:08] <Joshue> Scribe: Eliot
# [12:08] <oedipus> people need guidance on how to use FIGURE and FIGCAPTION as well as IMG and @alt @labelledby, IMG may not always in FIGURE
# [12:08] <eliot> janina: does the group wish to record a consensus or candidate?
# [12:08] <eliot> cys: combine 2&4
# [12:08] <oedipus> negative 1
# [12:08] <eliot> janina: opposition? discussion?
# [12:08] <oedipus> people need guidance on how to use FIGURE and FIGCAPTION as well as IMG and @alt @labelledby, IMG may not always in FIGURE
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# [12:09] <eliot> jan:2&4 are not about guidance
# [12:09] <eliot> ..should we survey about guidance?
# [12:09] <Joshue> @GJR look at http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
# [12:09] <pimpbot> Joshue: Huh?
# [12:10] <Joshue> #2 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706
# [12:10] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [12:10] <Joshue> #4 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126
# [12:10] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [12:10] <eliot> cys: 2&4 are the widest array, the widest way to provide text alternatives
# [12:11] <eliot> ...the other two are the do-nothing proposal and the last is the html4 proposal
# [12:11] * oedipus guess i don't have the brainwidth to follow what preceisely is being discussed
# [12:11] <eliot> stevef: do we ned to disambiguate 2&4?
# [12:12] <eliot> cys: want machine checking to be as close to author checking
# [12:12] * Quits: yuma_1986 (yuma_1985@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [12:12] <eliot> ...o we need to structure the proposal with two sections? Machine and author?
# [12:13] <oedipus> figcaption may not provide an adequate alt text -- if one looks at books or magazines, the captions are not very explicative if one can't see the captioned image
# [12:13] <eliot> josh: need to build a solid foundation
# [12:13] * Quits: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [12:13] <eliot> paul: might want to go broader
# [12:13] <eliot> ...move on to something else
# [12:13] <eliot> cys: impact on the change proposal
# [12:14] <eliot> Topic: four porposals with guidance implications
# [12:14] <Joshue> Scribe: Joshue
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# [12:15] <Joshue> Eliot: Here is the list again. http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
# [12:15] <pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)
# [12:15] <Joshue> # Change Proposal: Remove specific alternate text requirements for various specific cases of img and replace with reference to external document.
# [12:15] <Joshue> # http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091209
# [12:15] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091209 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [12:15] <Joshue> # 5 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0050.html
# [12:15] <pimpbot> Title: Change proposals for ISSUE-31 and ISSUE-80 from Ian Hickson on 2010-07-15 (public-html@w3.org from July 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
# [12:15] <Joshue> # 6 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504
# [12:16] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [12:16] <Joshue> # 7 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510
# [12:16] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [12:16] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504#Details
# [12:16] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [12:17] <Joshue> SF: #1 says we have this guidance, talks about spliiting it out, replacing whats in the spec with whats here. Or have both but have normative requirement in the spec and this doc to agree.
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# [12:17] <Joshue> SF: They both say that these are normative reqs for HTML 5.
# [12:18] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques
# [12:18] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives (at dev.w3.org)
# [12:18] <Joshue> SF: Outlines diffs between Steves version and the spec example.
# [12:19] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
# [12:19] <Joshue> Cyns; So does # 1 ask to delete the current spec guidance and point to yours, does it have options?
# [12:19] <Joshue> JS: Are you asking that the current spec guidance be removed?
# [12:19] * oedipus welcome, laura, we are discussing the 7 change proposals for @alt
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# [12:20] <Joshue> Cyns: Change proposals should not have 'or's..
# [12:20] * Parts: wonsuk (wslee@84.14.50.82)
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# [12:20] <Joshue> Cyns: We want to survey delete guidance to authors and link to Steves doc, or do nothing, are their others?
# [12:20] <oedipus> zakim, passcode?
# [12:20] <Zakim> the conference code is 26635 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), oedipus
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# [12:21] * oedipus laura, you can dial into zakim
# [12:21] <Joshue> JS; #5 is do nothing.
# [12:21] <Joshue> Eliot: # 7 keep as HTML 4.
# [12:21] <Joshue> JS: It doesn't point to anything or tell you what to do..
# [12:21] <Joshue> Cyns: We are not talking about conformance now..but advice to authors..
# [12:22] <Joshue> # 7 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510
# [12:22] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [12:23] <Joshue> Cyns: This doesn't go into author advice..
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# [12:23] <Joshue> Cyns: It's a complementory change proposal.
# [12:23] * Disconnected
# [12:24] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
# [12:24] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
# [12:24] * Topic is 'HTML WG timeline: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html + discussion guidelines: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/DiscussionGuidelines'
# [12:24] * Set by MikeSmith on Tue Sep 14 10:32:56
# [12:24] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [12:24] <Joshue> JS: We can suggest several options.
# [12:25] <Joshue> Cyns: We can replace the guidance in the spec and leave the spec alone, Paul?
# [12:25] <Joshue> PC: Are the proposals just variations?
# [12:25] <oedipus> 3 options on the table are what?
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# [12:25] <Joshue> PC: Are you trying to synthesis the change proposals?
# [12:26] * Joshue GJR they are the numbered # items that I put into IRC
# [12:26] * oedipus no cyns' options
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# [12:26] * oedipus she's articulating now
# [12:26] * Joshue sorry..
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# [12:26] <oedipus> can you repeat that please?
# [12:27] * Joshue Cyns is putting it in now..
# [12:27] * oedipus thanks
# [12:28] <eliot> janina: do we want to draft advice on these three proposals?
# [12:28] <oedipus> i think that any suggested resolution be vetted by the HTML TF on the public-html-a11y list
# [12:28] * Joshue eliot would you mind scribing now?
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# [12:29] <eliot> ...suggestions?
# [12:29] <myakura> ScribeNick: eliot
# [12:29] <artur> I can live with a link to S.'s doc or the 2nd, but not with 3rd option... ;)
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# [12:29] <eliot> cys: I motion that we support trplacing advice to authors w/ a link to a separate document
# [12:30] <Stevef> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives
# [12:30] <eliot> janina: agenda item for next week to confirm on TF next week
# [12:30] <Stevef> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
# [12:30] <eliot> ...consensus seems to be in the room. Any disagreement?
# [12:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives (at dev.w3.org)
# [12:30] <paulc> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives
# [12:31] <eliot> janina: expect that document on the agenda for the tF for next week
# [12:31] <eliot> paul: change proposals or decisions need to be made before last call
# [12:31] * r12a-nb is now known as r12a
# [12:32] <eliot> paul: decide in which order you work on these. 80? 122?
# [12:32] <Joshue> + 1 for the @alt doc to be reference/normative etc one way or another.
# [12:32] <cyns> 3 options: 1) replace the text in the HTML 5 spec that relates to authoring advice for text alternatives with a link to the separate document 2) paste the text from the document into the HTML 5 spec replacing the current text 3) do nothing
# [12:32] <eliot> cys: I thought they were done
# [12:32] <eliot> issue-80?
# [12:32] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-80
# [12:32] <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
# [12:32] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
# [12:32] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-80: document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [12:32] <cyns> 3 options: 1) replace the text in the HTML 5 spec that relates to authoring advice for text alternatives with a link to the separate document 2) paste the text from the document into the HTML 5 spec replacing the current text 3) do nothing
# [12:32] <eliot> jenina: we need to take up 80
# [12:33] <eliot> paul: 2 proposals, one of which overlaps with 81
# [12:33] * Quits: ljh (ljh@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [12:33] <eliot> two slots tomorrow: 9-10
# [12:33] <eliot> paul: why not start at 8:30?
# [12:33] <eliot> scribe notes that Paul is powerful enough to use a colored marker
# [12:33] <oedipus> what is janina's question?
# [12:34] <eliot> janina: emoticons...should they be alt texted?
# [12:34] <oedipus> of course
# [12:34] <oedipus> <img src="smiley.jpg" alt="smile">
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# [12:35] <oedipus> <img src="winking.png" alt="wink">
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# [12:35] <eliot> For tomorrow, a11y to take room 3a (with audio) from 8:30-10:30, Lyon time.
# [12:35] <Joshue> +1 to Emoticons :-)
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# [12:35] <oedipus> <img src="tongue.png" alt="sticks out tongue">
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# [12:36] <eliot> issue-127?
# [12:36] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-127
# [12:36] <trackbot> ISSUE-127 -- Simplify characterization of link types -- raised
# [12:36] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/127
# [12:36] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-127: Simplify characterization of link types - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [12:36] <eliot> issue-122?
# [12:36] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-122
# [12:36] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
# [12:36] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
# [12:36] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-122: alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [12:37] <eliot> paul: null change proposal says do not make it nonconformaing. Are you going against the change proposal?
# [12:37] <eliot> is this the right issue?
# [12:37] * Quits: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [12:37] <eliot> cyns: was emoticons covered?
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# [12:37] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [12:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [12:37] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
# [12:37] <eliot> paul: call for change proposals ends on 11/27
# [12:38] <oedipus> call for change proposal ends 27 november 2010
# [12:38] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-122
# [12:38] <pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)
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# [12:38] <eliot> josh: this is not a bout emoticons, it's about sometihng else
# [12:38] * Quits: anne (annevk@84.14.50.82) (Quit: anne)
# [12:38] <eliot> cyns: if it goes with no change, then we need to address the example
# [12:39] <eliot> ...122 is dependant on 31
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# [12:40] <oedipus> SteveF has a questoin
# [12:40] <eliot> all: issue 122 doesn't have emoticons
# [12:41] <eliot> stevef: got a deadline but there's not been enough discussion about how this is supposed to work
# [12:41] <eliot> josh: I think the issue's badly worded
# [12:41] <MikeSmith> issue-122?
# [12:41] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-122
# [12:41] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
# [12:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
# [12:41] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-122: alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [12:41] <oedipus> steveF notes that issue 122 is logged against the alt-techniques document, not the HTML5 spec
# [12:41] * janina Gregory, do you know whether Markus Gilling is still at TPAF
# [12:42] * oedipus yes, he is here today and leaving tonight
# [12:42] * janina OK, thanks.
# [12:42] * oedipus do you want me to try and ping markus?
# [12:42] <eliot> paul: message from 10/27 about the scope.....I'll take care of this
# [12:42] <eliot> janina: epub is tomorrow?
# [12:42] <eliot> paul: yes
# [12:43] * oedipus if the trains aren't running, markus may be there tomorrow, too
# [12:43] * Joshue vive la France!
# [12:43] * janina So far, it's the planes that are at risk, and I believe they're not at risk until Saturday.
# [12:43] * oedipus markus is on the same/similar time zone so he should be able to participate remotely
# [12:43] <eliot> janina: let's adjourn until 2:00
# [12:43] <kliehm> present+ Eliot_Graff, Mike_Smith
# [12:44] * oedipus janina, markus is on the same/similar time zone so he should be able to participate remotely
# [12:44] * MikeSmith changes topic to 'HTML WG face-to-face meetings: agenda, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda & minutes: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html'
# [12:44] * oedipus suggest you email him markus.gylling@gmail.com
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# [12:44] * oedipus janina, markus is on the same/similar time zone so he should be able to participate remotely, so i suggest you email him at markus.gylling@gmail.com
# [12:45] <kliehm> present+ Philippe_Le_Hegaret
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# [12:45] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [12:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [12:45] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
# [12:46] <oedipus> thanks to eliot and josh for scribing
# [12:46] <MikeSmith> plh, 02:00 - 03:30 Media Accessibility
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# [12:46] <kliehm> present+ Soonbo_Han
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# [12:47] <kliehm> rrsagent, make minutes
# [12:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [12:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
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# [12:54] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)10:21Z has ended
# [12:54] <Zakim> Attendees were
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# [13:40] <oedipus> zakim, code?
# [13:40] <Zakim> the conference code is hidden, oedipus
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# [13:42] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11217] New: Footnotes I find it hard to believe, that even today, HTML does not include a specific element for including notes within the text. Notes are necessary for the full argumentation in the text without still belonging to the main text itself, and they includ <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0191.html>
# [13:43] * oedipus are we close to re-starting?
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# [13:55] * kliehm reboot in 8 minutes
# [13:55] * oedipus thanks martin
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# [13:58] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 at 13:00Z for 90 minutes?
# [13:58] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)13:00Z scheduled with code 26634 (CONF4) at 13:00Z for 90 minutes until 1430Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
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# [13:59] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)13:00Z has now started
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# [14:02] <kliehm> present+ Janina_Sajka, Joshue_O_Connor, Martin_Kliehm, Artur_Ortega, Marco_Ranon, Mike_Smith, Eliot_Graff, Soonbo_Han
# [14:02] <kliehm> present- Joshue_O_Connor
# [14:03] <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
# [14:03] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
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# [14:03] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
# [14:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [14:03] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
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# [14:04] <kliehm> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
# [14:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, kliehm
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# [14:04] <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
# [14:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
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# [14:04] <Zakim> On IRC I see davidC, Norm, Julian, kensaku, dbaron, freedom, mav, mjs, Kai, shepazu, shan, SGondo, kohei_, artur, sylvaing, wonsuk, raphael, adrianba, jorlow, Lachy, gfreed,
# [14:05] <Zakim> ... mattur, jun, aroben, krijnh, Laura, janina, Marco_Ranon, eliot, beverloo, Stevef, silvia, gavin__, oedipus, Martijnc, kliehm, MichaelC, MikeSmith, Zakim, inimino, arronei,
# [14:05] <kliehm> present+ Joshue_O_Connor
# [14:05] <Zakim> ... webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, pimpbot, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai,
# [14:05] <Zakim> ... drry, hsivonen, jwm
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# [14:05] <raphael> Raphael Troncy: Media Fragments WG co-chair
# [14:05] * oedipus janina, geoff freed is here, but can only stay for 15 minutes
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# [14:05] <anne> Anne van Kesteren - Opera
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# [14:05] <eliot> Eliot Graff, Microsoft
# [14:06] <jorlow> Jeremy Orlow, Google
# [14:06] <kliehm> present+ Anne_van_Kesteren
# [14:06] * freedom_ is now known as freedom
# [14:06] <kliehm> present+ Jeremy_Orlow
# [14:06] <mav> Mark Vickers, Comcast
# [14:06] <artur> a/me is here! Artur Ortega, Accessibility Evangelist, Yahoo!
# [14:06] <eliot> present+ eliot
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# [14:06] <krisk> Kris Krueger - Microsoft
# [14:06] <hsivonen> Henri Sivonen, consulting for Mozilla
# [14:06] <mjs> Maciej Stachowiak, Apple
# [14:06] <davidC> David Corvoysier France Telecom
# [14:06] <yael> Yael Aharon, Nokia
# [14:06] <oedipus> on phone Gregory J. Rosmaita, sole proprietor and employee of oedipal enterprises, (very) ltd. / invited expert
# [14:07] <Kai> Kai Scheppe, Deutsche Telekom
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# [14:07] <kliehm> present+ Mark_Vickers, Kris_Krueger, Maciej_Stachowiak, Yael_Aharon, Kai_Scheppe
# [14:07] <oedipus> present+ Gregory_Rosmaita
# [14:07] <oedipus> present+ Geoff_Freed
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# [14:08] * kliehm present+ is the code to tell the bot who's participating, see http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Teleconference_cheat_sheet
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# [14:08] <pimpbot> Title: Error (at www.w3.org)
# [14:08] <davidC> present+ David_Corvoysier
# [14:08] <silvia> on irc for a bit Silvia Pfeiffer, contracting for Mozilla and just recently for Google
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# [14:09] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
# [14:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [14:09] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
# [14:09] <sicking> scribe: sicking
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# [14:09] * MichaelC Janina Sajka
# [14:10] <sicking> JS: we put forwards a media requirements doc
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# [14:10] <sicking> JS: people seemed to read it once people asked if it could be adopted
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# [14:10] <hsivonen> q+
# [14:10] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
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# [14:10] <sicking> JS: we might have gotten some things wrong, but i'd like to clear up misunderstandings
# [14:11] * raphael waves silvia
# [14:11] <sicking> JS: copyright has been discussed
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# [14:11] <kliehm> present+ Henri_Sivonen
# [14:11] <sicking> JS: there was concern that it opened door to other things related to copyright
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# [14:12] * MichaelC zakim, who's on the phone?
# [14:12] * Zakim sees on the phone: no one
# [14:12] <sicking> JS: need copyright info since copyright might be created by different people than creating the media
# [14:13] <kliehm> TOPIC: Media Accessibility
# [14:13] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
# [14:13] <pimpbot> Title: Media Accessibility User Requirements - HTML accessibility task force Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [14:13] <hsivonen> q-
# [14:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:13] <sicking> HS: we should repeat the conclusion from yesterday as to what happens if some of the info in the requirements doc isn't met
# [14:13] * oedipus MichaelC, i added Geoff and me who are on the phone
# [14:13] * oedipus pinged steve via skype but no reply
# [14:14] * anne FO
# [14:14] <sicking> FO: there are three things that the req doc speaks to
# [14:14] <MichaelC> present+ Sean_Hayes
# [14:14] <sicking> FO: associating tracks with a media element
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# [14:14] * oedipus MichaelC, silvia is monitoring via IRC
# [14:14] <sicking> FOL: need text track format
# [14:14] <sicking> s/FOL/FO/
# [14:15] <sicking> FO: there are requirements on the format
# [14:15] * plinss_ is now known as plinss_lyon
# [14:15] <sicking> FO: user experience requirements on user experience in browsers. These are requirements on the UAs
# [14:15] <janina> q?
# [14:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:15] <mjs> q+
# [14:15] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [14:15] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
# [14:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [14:15] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
# [14:16] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@84.14.50.82) (Quit: dsinger)
# [14:16] <sicking> FO: do people agree that the method for associating a track with a media element should be agnostic to the format of the track
# [14:16] * oedipus pimpbot needs to be pimp-slapped out of the channel
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# [14:16] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
# [14:16] <gfreed> unfortunately i have to leave the call, but will rejoin in the near future.
# [14:17] <sicking> FO: would be good to allow specifynig multiple formats and then UA can use the one they support
# [14:17] <sicking> FO: want to be able to get track info out of the media file itself
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# [14:17] <sicking> FO: we should also discuss the track format itself
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# [14:18] <sicking> MJS: have question on requirement doc
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# [14:18] <oedipus> ack mjs
# [14:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:18] <sicking> MJS: you can't tell which requirements are going into spec, and what are going to be guidelines for UAs, etc
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# [14:18] <sicking> FO: i am working on putting things in differenet buckets
# [14:19] <sicking> PC: we need action items
# [14:19] <kliehm> present+ Frank_Olivier
# [14:19] <hsivonen> q+
# [14:19] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
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# [14:20] <oedipus> trackbot, status?
# [14:20] * trackbot knows about the following 29 users: Lachlan, Matthew, Larry, Michael(tm), Doug, Gregory, Philippe, Everett, Julian, Laura, Shawn, Paul, Henri, Maciej, James, Adrian, Joshue, Richard, Ben, Chris, Kris, Manu, Sam, Michael, Ian, Cynthia, Janina, David, Steve
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# [14:20] <sicking> ACTION: frankolivier to provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs
# [14:20] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [14:20] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [14:20] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - frankolivier
# [14:20] <MikeSmith> trackbot, status?
# [14:20] * trackbot knows about the following 29 users: Lachlan, Matthew, Larry, Michael(tm), Doug, Gregory, Philippe, Everett, Julian, Laura, Shawn, Paul, Henri, Maciej, James, Adrian, Joshue, Richard, Ben, Chris, Kris, Manu, Sam, Michael, Ian, Cynthia, Janina, David, Steve
# [14:20] <sicking> ACTION: Frank_Olivier to provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs
# [14:20] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [14:20] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Frank_Olivier
# [14:20] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [14:20] <sicking> ACTION: Frank to provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs
# [14:21] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [14:21] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [14:21] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Frank
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# [14:21] <artur> q+
# [14:21] * Zakim sees hsivonen, artur on the speaker queue
# [14:21] <sicking> HS: towards end of meeting on tuesday whose position was that failing to meet requirement in media accessibility reqs doc should stall last call
# [14:22] <plh> trackbot, reload
# [14:22] <frankolivier> q+
# [14:22] * Zakim sees hsivonen, artur, frankolivier on the speaker queue
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# [14:22] <sicking> HS: we need to agree that the requirements that are on the spec actually need to stall last call
# [14:22] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-html-a11y-minutes.html
# [14:22] <sicking> PC: the chairs are unlikely to agree to that
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# [14:23] <hsivonen> q-
# [14:23] * Zakim sees artur, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:23] <sicking> PC: we'll be looking for change proposals, and then ask if those meet the requirements in the doc
# [14:23] <janina> q?
# [14:23] * Zakim sees artur, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:23] <sicking> HS: we need to get that on record. I agree with that approach
# [14:24] <dsinger> q+
# [14:24] * Zakim sees artur, frankolivier, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:24] <oedipus> a11y issues must be included in media section before any media section is "complete"
# [14:24] <sicking> PC: we've told people in the TF that they have until feb 23rd to come up with change proposals
# [14:24] * anne hopes this is carefully minuted
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# [14:24] <hsivonen> (for the record, I agreed with what *Paul* / chairs said)
# [14:25] <sicking> PC: if we have 50 requirements on the spec, then people have until Feb 23rd to come up with change proposals for those 50
# [14:25] <oedipus> FYI: if media goes forward without a11y, then there will be formal objections filed
# [14:25] <sicking> PC: we've been told in no unclear terms that we're working on a schedule
# [14:25] <sicking> MJS: i agree, that's what we've been told
# [14:26] <cyns> +1
# [14:26] <oedipus> q?
# [14:26] * Zakim sees artur, frankolivier, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:26] <MikeSmith> trackbot, reload
# [14:26] <janina> q?
# [14:26] * Zakim sees artur, frankolivier, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:26] <dsinger> ack dsinger
# [14:26] * Zakim sees artur, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:26] <frankolivier> Q-
# [14:26] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
# [14:26] <eliot> +1 to dsinger
# [14:26] <cyns> that was +1 to dsinger
# [14:26] <sicking> DS: if we get the arcitecture correct then we'll be in a good position. If we have a way to link to captions then it matters less about the caption format for now
# [14:27] * Quits: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82) (Quit: I am gone now)
# [14:27] <janina> q?
# [14:27] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
# [14:27] <janina> ack a
# [14:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:27] <sicking> AO: want to explain background
# [14:27] <cyns> q+
# [14:27] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [14:28] <sicking> AO: i'm blind but speak multiple languages. Any of those languages would be fine for me to consume
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# [14:28] <dsinger> for the record, I am clear that we need the architecture in place that enables us to solve all of our requirements, and improve those solutions over time. This is much more important than detailed solutions to all. Architecture, once incomplete or wrong, will be a millstone. With the right architecture, we can provide better and better details over time.
# [14:28] <sicking> AO: HTML5 need a way to provide multiple alternatives which are automatically picked according to what I can consume
# [14:29] <kliehm> present+ Dave_Singer
# [14:29] <frankolivier> q+
# [14:29] * Zakim sees cyns, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:29] * oedipus "it's brain surgery, not rocket science" - montgomery burns
# [14:29] <janina> q?
# [14:29] * Zakim sees cyns, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:29] <oedipus> ack cyns
# [14:29] * Zakim sees frankolivier on the speaker queue
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# [14:29] <sicking> AO: how should we make html comparable to what a tv set can do
# [14:30] * MichaelC CS
# [14:30] <sicking> CS: the requirements doc is structured in terms of user requirements, not spec features. Can make it look intimidating
# [14:30] <sicking> CS: however one spec can meet multiple requirements
# [14:30] <janina> q?
# [14:30] * Zakim sees frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:30] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
# [14:30] <janina> ack f
# [14:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:31] <sicking> FO: we can handle track definition spec issues through bugs
# [14:31] <MikeSmith> action-192?
# [14:31] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-192
# [14:31] <trackbot> ACTION-192 -- Frank Olivier to provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs -- due 2010-11-11 -- OPEN
# [14:31] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/192
# [14:31] <sicking> FO: most of the requirements are around text captioning formats
# [14:31] <sicking> FO: seems like implementors want to implement WebSRT, is that correct
# [14:32] <hsivonen> q+
# [14:32] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [14:32] <sicking> JS: not sure if implementors have such agreement
# [14:32] <sicking> q+
# [14:32] * Zakim sees hsivonen, sicking on the speaker queue
# [14:32] * Joins: r12a (ishida@128.30.52.28)
# [14:32] * Quits: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [14:32] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
# [14:32] <paulc> q+
# [14:32] * Zakim sees hsivonen, sicking, paulc on the speaker queue
# [14:33] <oedipus> Make track element additions technology neutral: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11207
# [14:33] <sicking> JS: happy if some features can come later, such as captioning format
# [14:33] <janina> q?
# [14:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, sicking, paulc on the speaker queue
# [14:33] <artur> q-
# [14:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, sicking, paulc on the speaker queue
# [14:33] <frankolivier> q+
# [14:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, sicking, paulc, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:33] <MikeSmith> ack sicking
# [14:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, paulc, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:33] <kliehm> present+ Jonas_Sicking
# [14:34] <janina> q?
# [14:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen, paulc, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:34] <mjs> q+
# [14:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen, paulc, frankolivier, mjs on the speaker queue
# [14:34] <oedipus> ack hs
# [14:34] * Zakim sees paulc, frankolivier, mjs on the speaker queue
# [14:34] * Quits: plinss_lyon (plinss@84.14.50.82) (Quit: plinss_lyon)
# [14:35] <anne> I do think we really want to have a single format supported by everyone...
# [14:35] <sicking> HS: without implying comittment to anything, but think implementors are happier to implement something like WebSRT, rather than something TTML. One issue is parsing rules, HTML-like rather than XML-like
# [14:35] <dsinger> q+
# [14:35] * Zakim sees paulc, frankolivier, mjs, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:35] <janina> q?
# [14:35] * Zakim sees paulc, frankolivier, mjs, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:35] * anne wonders why there is such a massive lag
# [14:35] <sicking> HS: don't think it's productive to discuss TTML as presumed format
# [14:35] * oedipus janina, rich just popped up in #pf - pointed him here and provided passcode
# [14:35] * janina Thanks Gregory
# [14:35] <MikeSmith> q+ sicking
# [14:35] * Zakim sees paulc, frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking on the speaker queue
# [14:36] <paulc> 1. Should the split of the rmedia equirements be on 3 areas: HTML5 spec, captioning formats (TTML, WebSRT), guidelines for UAs?
# [14:36] <janina> q?
# [14:36] * Zakim sees paulc, frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking on the speaker queue
# [14:36] <oedipus> ack paulc
# [14:36] * Zakim sees frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking on the speaker queue
# [14:36] <sicking> sicking: i'd rather start from scratch than start from TTML, its feature set is wrong
# [14:37] * Joins: plinss_lyon (plinss@84.14.50.82)
# [14:37] <MichaelC> q+ to say I'm format neutral, want to do requirements then gap analysis of candidates then look at which one we might want to improve and adopt, but I do (personally) lean towards a specified interoperable format
# [14:37] * Zakim sees frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [14:37] <sicking> PC: i'm not convinced that this is the right group to do requirements on captioning format
# [14:37] <janina> q?
# [14:37] * Zakim sees frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [14:37] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11207
# [14:37] <sicking> PC: we should triage the requirements doc towards what *this* group should do
# [14:37] <raphael> +1 for separating captioning formats from HTML5 spec
# [14:38] * Quits: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82) (Quit: I am gone now)
# [14:38] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [14:38] <paulc> 2. Where should the requirements for captioning actually be done? Not in the HTML WG?
# [14:38] <hsivonen> q+
# [14:38] * Zakim sees frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [14:38] * Joins: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82)
# [14:38] <sicking> MC: when you say "this group". do you mean the HTMLWG or the people in this room or something else?
# [14:38] * Joins: Sean (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [14:39] <sicking> PC: if we brought in captioning format into W3C, it wouldn't end up in the HTMLWG
# [14:39] <plh> q+\
# [14:39] * Zakim sees frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, hsivonen, \ on the speaker queue
# [14:39] <hsivonen> q-
# [14:39] * Zakim sees frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, \ on the speaker queue
# [14:39] <plh> q+ plh
# [14:39] * Zakim sees frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, \, plh on the speaker queue
# [14:39] <plh> q- \
# [14:39] * Zakim sees frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, plh on the speaker queue
# [14:39] <hsivonen> q+
# [14:39] * Zakim sees frankolivier, mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [14:39] <sicking> HS: I think it would be fine to bring WebSRT to W3C, and i do think that the HTMLWG would be a fine group to handle it
# [14:40] <sicking> PC: I don't want to delay the group
# [14:40] <MichaelC> ack frank
# [14:40] * Zakim sees mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [14:40] <paulc> Paul agrees to learn to say "alternative media" instead of "captioning format".
# [14:40] <sicking> FO: yes, TTML has a lot of features, which is both a good or a bad thing
# [14:40] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
# [14:40] <sicking> FO: the IE team wouldn't have a problem with implementing websrt, if it was specced in W3C, and that it fulfilled peoples requirements
# [14:41] <janina> q?
# [14:41] * Zakim sees mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [14:41] <sicking> FO: I think we should define WebSRT, and publish a spec on it
# [14:41] <anne> q+
# [14:41] * Zakim sees mjs, dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [14:41] <sicking> FO: and we should do it by HTML Last Call
# [14:41] <oedipus> ack mjs
# [14:41] * Zakim sees dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [14:41] <janina> q?
# [14:41] * Zakim sees dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [14:42] <sicking> MJS: i can't make promises, but folks working on media feel pretty good about websrt
# [14:42] <sicking> MJS: they don't feel as good about TTML
# [14:42] <plh> q?
# [14:42] * Zakim sees dsinger, sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [14:42] <sicking> MJS: partially about complexity, but also that some of complexity doesn't seem warranted. Also doesn't align as well with other web tech
# [14:43] <anne> ("not very much" is an understatement imo)
# [14:43] <sicking> MJS: it's not good that websrt is in whatwg space
# [14:43] <sicking> MJS: it's more important that it's moved to w3c, than that it's moved to HTMLWG
# [14:43] <silvia> could be separate spec in W3C space
# [14:44] <sicking> MJS: if other vendors are interested in implementing it, we should spec it
# [14:44] <oedipus> present+ Steve_Faulkner
# [14:44] <oedipus> ack ds
# [14:44] * Zakim sees sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [14:44] <janina> q?
# [14:44] * Zakim sees sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [14:44] <sicking> DS: i don't think there is a "the solution"
# [14:45] <sicking> DS: we need a solution for now. but things can change over time
# [14:45] <dsinger> DS: "the" solution is a mis-leading phrase; "the" solution is an HTML architecture that allows captions to be associated with media content; we need "a" solution to get going and webSRT may well be that. But webSRT is not and will not be the only solution to captioning ever (even if TTML never makes it), and captioning is not "the" problem either. Even if we endorse it, we should not make captioning specifically and only webSRT and we should not make altern
# [14:45] <sicking> DS: also problem isn't just captioning
# [14:45] <dsinger> media be only text.
# [14:45] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [14:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [14:45] <MikeSmith> q?
# [14:45] * Zakim sees sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [14:46] * oedipus dsinger, your comment ended with "should not make altern"
# [14:46] <janina> q?
# [14:46] * Zakim sees sicking, MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [14:46] <sicking> ack
# [14:46] <sicking> ack sicking
# [14:46] * Zakim sees MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [14:46] * Joins: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43)
# [14:46] * oedipus dsinger, you might want to repaste the last part of your comment into the channel
# [14:46] <kliehm> q+ to say that alternative media isn't limited to <video> and <audio> either
# [14:46] * Zakim sees MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne, kliehm on the speaker queue
# [14:46] <dsinger> q+
# [14:46] * Zakim sees MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne, kliehm, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:46] <frankolivier> q+
# [14:46] * Zakim sees MichaelC, plh, hsivonen, anne, kliehm, dsinger, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:47] <sicking> HS: i think websrt should not go to the same people that defined ttml. Last time they produced ttml which we're talking about not using. I think html is a better group
# [14:47] <anne> ack hsivonen
# [14:47] * Zakim sees MichaelC, plh, anne, kliehm, dsinger, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:47] <sicking> HS: the expertize needed is how to integrate with existing web platform
# [14:47] <mjs> +1 to hsivonen
# [14:47] * anne thinks VPN is the lag
# [14:48] <sicking> DS: they were asked to create a different type of format, not a delivery format which is what we need now. So lets not critique them
# [14:48] <cyns> q?
# [14:48] * Zakim sees MichaelC, plh, anne, kliehm, dsinger, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:48] <sicking> PC: do people agree that WebSRT is what we need
# [14:48] <dsinger> q-
# [14:48] * Zakim sees MichaelC, plh, anne, kliehm, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:48] <oedipus> we need to work on WebSRT to ensure meets a11y reqs
# [14:48] <MichaelC> MC: I'm format neutral, want to do user requirements then technical requirements then gap analysis of candidate features then look at which one we might want to improve and adopt with potential enhancement; I do (personally) lean towards a specified interoperable format
# [14:48] <sicking> PC: we don't get to make the decision where the spec ends up, it's up to the AC
# [14:48] <janina> ack m
# [14:48] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say I'm format neutral, want to do requirements then gap analysis of candidates then look at which one we might want to improve and adopt, but I do
# [14:48] <Zakim> ... (personally) lean towards a specified interoperable format
# [14:49] * Zakim sees plh, anne, kliehm, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:49] * oedipus bless you whoever sneezed
# [14:49] <cyns> q+
# [14:49] * Zakim sees plh, anne, kliehm, frankolivier, cyns on the speaker queue
# [14:49] * Quits: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
# [14:49] * Joins: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43)
# [14:49] <sicking> MJS: previously we talked about splitting spec requirements vs. other requirements. We shold focus on the former
# [14:50] <oedipus> Make track element additions technology neutral: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11207
# [14:50] * Joins: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82)
# [14:51] <oedipus> q?
# [14:51] * Zakim sees plh, anne, kliehm, frankolivier, cyns on the speaker queue
# [14:51] * plh wonders if he needs to jump in order to take his turn
# [14:51] * oedipus says to plh most probably yes
# [14:52] <kliehm> ack plh
# [14:52] * Zakim sees anne, kliehm, frankolivier, cyns on the speaker queue
# [14:52] <sicking> CS: we might need some amount of gap analysis, but it seems like the track element is what needs to go into HTML which is a deeper arch thing
# [14:52] <janina> q?
# [14:52] * Zakim sees anne, kliehm, frankolivier, cyns on the speaker queue
# [14:52] <sicking> PLH: i'm worried about not looking at the format at all, then by feb 23rd we might not have a solution at all
# [14:53] <oedipus> plus 1 to PLH
# [14:53] <sicking> PLH: the question about which group should do it is a question about patents
# [14:53] <sicking> HS: aren't we rechartering soon anyway?
# [14:53] <hsivonen> We should also analyze the proposal that modifies WebSRT with the HTML fragment parsing algorithm
# [14:53] <sicking> PC: we'll probably ask for a charter extension, not a charter revision
# [14:53] * oedipus it's already opened...
# [14:54] <sicking> PLH: we can always create a new WG for websrt, we can do it quickly
# [14:54] <sicking> PLH: i agree the existing text WG might not be a good place
# [14:54] <oedipus> ack anne
# [14:54] * Zakim sees kliehm, frankolivier, cyns on the speaker queue
# [14:54] * MichaelC the lid is open a crack; I agree with Paul that would be a whole new Pandora's box
# [14:54] <silvia> why not leave the development of the WebSRT spec to the a11y TF?
# [14:54] <janina> q?
# [14:54] * Zakim sees kliehm, frankolivier, cyns on the speaker queue
# [14:54] <kliehm> ack anne
# [14:54] * Zakim sees kliehm, frankolivier, cyns on the speaker queue
# [14:54] <sicking> AVK: we prefer to have a single format to implement, rather than multiple
# [14:54] <raphael> s/existing text WG/existing TimedText WG
# [14:54] * oedipus actually, if you want to be "correct" pandora was given an urn in the original myth
# [14:54] <plh> plh: there is expertise in the TTML wg that would be useful to have in the new wg
# [14:55] <kliehm> ack me
# [14:55] <Zakim> kliehm, you wanted to say that alternative media isn't limited to <video> and <audio> either
# [14:55] * Zakim sees frankolivier, cyns on the speaker queue
# [14:55] <sicking> DS: i don't think we'll end up with multiple formats Websrt looks like a good start
# [14:55] <raphael> silvia, a spec is produced by a WG chartered for doing so
# [14:55] * kliehm @sicking, I'm MK
# [14:55] <sicking> s/MC/MK/g
# [14:55] <sicking> thanks
# [14:55] <cyns> q-
# [14:55] * Zakim sees frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:56] <dsinger> ds: I don't see an immediate need for multiple formats and at the moment webSRT seems like a perfectly fine place, even if it's not the be-all and end-all of captioning
# [14:56] <sicking> ACTION: paulc and co-chairs to investigate how to handle standardization of websrt
# [14:56] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [14:56] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [14:56] <trackbot> Created ACTION-193 - And co-chairs to investigate how to handle standardization of websrt [on Paul Cotton - due 2010-11-11].
# [14:56] <sicking> JS: so assumption is websrt is what we'll use?
# [14:56] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [14:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [14:56] <sicking> DS: no, it'll be *a* solution that we can use
# [14:56] <janina> q?
# [14:56] * Zakim sees frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:57] <sicking> PC: so frank will come up with requirements out of the requirements doc which relate to alternative media format
# [14:58] <artur> +1
# [14:58] <artur> independently ofany format we have to decide to be able to specify alternative audio (e.g. audiodescription, clear voice, different languages), alternative/additional video (e.g. several different s), sign languages), different kind of closed-captions (e.g. with video description, different langueages, etc.) with the media elements audio( & video.
# [14:58] <plh> q?
# [14:58] * Zakim sees frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:58] <sicking> MK: the problem isn't just for video, it's also for audio, canvas, image, etc
# [14:58] <oedipus> plus 1 to artur
# [14:58] <sicking> MK: we need a solution that works for more than video
# [14:58] <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8885
# [14:59] <janina> q?
# [14:59] * Zakim sees frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [14:59] <kliehm> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#embedded-content-1
# [14:59] <janina> ack f
# [14:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:59] <sicking> FO: doesn't seem like any browser vendor has a major problem with websrt?
# [14:59] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
# [14:59] * Joins: andreip (andreip@74.125.121.49)
# [14:59] <kliehm> s/need a solution/need a consistent solution/
# [14:59] <sicking> FO: we'll keep the HTML <track> feature open, so that it can work for other formats as well
# [14:59] <Sean> correction: With a well defined WebSRT
# [15:00] <janina> q?
# [15:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:00] <sicking> undo my previous s/MC/MK/g
# [15:00] <sicking> MC != MK
# [15:00] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Ping timeout)
# [15:00] * Parts: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
# [15:01] <anne> whisky for everyone
# [15:01] <kliehm> s/for more than video/for more than video so that UA can provide alternative content based on user's choices/
# [15:01] * Quits: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [15:01] * Quits: jorlow (jorlow@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jorlow)
# [15:01] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
# [15:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [15:02] <frankolivier> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
# [15:02] <anne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
# [15:02] * Joins: jorlow (jorlow@84.14.50.82)
# [15:02] * Joins: jorlow_ (jorlow@84.14.50.82)
# [15:02] <sicking> FO: DV 1,2,5,6,10,11,12 seem to be UA guidelines
# [15:03] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@99.39.114.91)
# [15:04] * oedipus that's sean hayes speaking
# [15:04] <kliehm> s/MK: we need a solution that works for more than video/MK: need a consistent solution for more than video so that UA can provide alternative content based on user's choices/
# [15:04] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
# [15:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [15:04] <sicking> CS: should "author should be able to override volume" say "user should be able to override volume"
# [15:04] <sicking> SH: actually, author is correct, it's probably a requirement on the media format
# [15:05] <sicking> FO: DV 3,4 are in spec today
# [15:05] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [15:05] * Quits: jorlow (jorlow@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [15:05] <sicking> FO: DV 7,8,13 need more info
# [15:05] * Quits: jorlow_ (jorlow@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [15:06] <sicking> JS: i think this is a lifted requirement for other WG, want smooth transitions in volume, not big steps
# [15:06] <sicking> HS: does it require a audio format which represents stereophonic middle, and separate info how to pan it?
# [15:07] <Sean> that is how its done in TV
# [15:07] <sicking> JS: maybe, i don't know
# [15:07] <oedipus> UAAG sees 3 levels of control: 1. gross (on/off) 2. author defined increments 3. user access to all media player's increments
# [15:07] <sicking> HS: why not mix the two together?
# [15:07] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
# [15:08] * Joins: yael_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [15:08] <sicking> CS: does this affect the spec?
# [15:08] <sicking> HS: it might affect the spec if the HTML spec needs to be able to link to a separate file which contain panning info
# [15:09] <sicking> JS: DV13 is a UA issue
# [15:09] * Joins: yael__ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [15:10] * Quits: yael (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [15:10] <sicking> FO: DV14, about copyright, has been discussed a lo
# [15:10] <sicking> t
# [15:10] <plh> q+
# [15:10] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [15:10] <sicking> HS: if the track format has a place to put human-readable copyright info, then this requirement is met
# [15:11] * Quits: yael_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [15:11] <sicking> FO: that seems correct
# [15:12] * plh media annotations
# [15:12] <sicking> PLH: media annotations working group need review from browser vendors on the API they are proposing
# [15:13] <sicking> FO: CC1,12,13 are user experience requirement
# [15:14] <sicking> FO:CC14 seems like a format requirement
# [15:14] <Sean> CC14 is there to allow parity with US TV caption sources
# [15:15] <sicking> FO: CC15 is UX issue
# [15:15] * oedipus janina, couldn't contact geoff -- might be in transit -- he said he'd rejoin when able
# [15:15] * Parts: tehu (tehu@88.161.62.51)
# [15:15] <sicking> FO: CC15,23,24 is UX issue
# [15:15] <sicking> HS: CC26 spec supports this already
# [15:15] <sicking> FO: CC22 in spec already
# [15:16] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Ping timeout)
# [15:16] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15)
# [15:16] <sicking> FO: 17.2 already in spec
# [15:16] <sicking> FO: CC17.2 already in spec
# [15:16] * oedipus i think that was RichS joining
# [15:16] <richardschwerdtfe> yep
# [15:16] <mav> Is there an existing capability or requirement for programmatic access to closed caption data for non-display usage (e.g. searching for keywords)?
# [15:17] <sicking> FO: CC2 format req
# [15:17] <oedipus> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
# [15:17] <sicking> FO: CC3,4 format req
# [15:18] * oedipus rich, we are reviewing the media a11y reqs http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
# [15:19] <sicking> MJS: CC5 depends on who makes the decision of where the text goes. If author determines it, then it's a spec requirement, if user decides then it's a UX req
# [15:19] <sicking> FO: CC6,7 is UX req
# [15:19] <sicking> FO: CC8 is format req
# [15:20] * Quits: Ileana (il9507@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Ileana)
# [15:20] <sicking> FO: you can stop scribing, i'll send out this list
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# [15:21] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [15:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [15:23] <hsivonen> it seems to me that there are a lot of reqs that would be met by HTML fragment algorithm-augmented WebSRT but not Hixie's WebSRT
# [15:24] * Quits: andreip (andreip@74.125.121.49) (Ping timeout)
# [15:30] * oedipus why isn't the discussion being minuted?
# [15:30] * plh time check. we seem to be halfway in Frank's list and we scheduled this discussion to stop at 3:30pm
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# [15:35] * oedipus i pinged jim several times - he is on IRC but not in #html-wg
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# [15:35] * oedipus gave jim the passcode and IRC channel
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# [15:39] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda
# [15:40] * oedipus resume with timed text or media a11y?
# [15:40] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
# [15:40] * kliehm @oedipus Frank Olivier will post this on public-html
# [15:40] <oedipus> @kliehm, thanks
# [15:41] * kliehm resume on the hour with Frank's list of requirements
# [15:41] * oedipus ok -- listen to you then
# [15:41] * oedipus dropped from zakim to charge phone during break
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# [15:56] * oedipus JAllan, we are restarting at the top of the hour
# [15:57] * JAllan thanks, I will be lurking
# [15:58] * oedipus damn! i shouldn't have hung up to recharge my phone -- the conference is now restricted (only 5 slots, right?)
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# [15:59] * oedipus JAllan, they were attempting to separate "format issues" from "user experience" issues in http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
# [16:00] * oedipus which will continue at the top of the hour
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# [16:03] <mjs> oedipus, we are going to continue media a11y for half an hour
# [16:04] * kliehm resuming
# [16:04] <oedipus> thanks, mjs - i shouldn't have hung up to recharge phone -- all 5 slots seem to be filled :(
# [16:04] * oedipus i'll be lurking in IRC
# [16:06] * oedipus Jim Allan, co-chair of the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines WG is also here in IRC only
# [16:07] <Sean> Sean is irc only
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# [16:07] <anne> dsinger, basically, you use the API and a metadata track
# [16:07] <anne> dsinger, that is my understanding, anyway
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# [16:08] * MichaelC zakim, who's on the phone?
# [16:08] * Zakim sees on the phone: no one
# [16:08] <anne> no scribing needed?
# [16:08] <oedipus> zakim says the conference is restricted at this time
# [16:09] <oedipus> sean, jim and i are IRC only, so scribing would be appreciated
# [16:09] * MichaelC zakim, room for 5?
# [16:09] <mjs> oedipus, we are going to hang up and redial the call
# [16:09] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)15:06Z scheduled with code 26636 (CONF6) for 60 minutes until 1606Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
# [16:09] <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
# [16:09] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [16:10] <MichaelC> everyone, redial using 26636
# [16:11] * oedipus after the boilerplate instead of asking for passcode, the phone just rings then hangs up
# [16:11] * oedipus yeah -- i'm connected to zakim!
# [16:11] * MichaelC keep trying, zakim pulls that sometimes
# [16:12] * oedipus thanks MichaelC for rebooting the call
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# [16:13] <Sean> Not connected to conference room
# [16:13] * oedipus sean, i heard a beep as if someone joined -- was that you?
# [16:13] <Sean> yes
# [16:14] * oedipus ok
# [16:14] * MichaelC not hearing beeps here but trust you can hear us
# [16:14] <Sean> no we cant
# [16:14] <oedipus> no we can't -- at least i can't
# [16:14] * MichaelC let me check
# [16:14] <Sean> did you mean 26636 or 26634
# [16:14] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)13:00Z has ended
# [16:14] <Zakim> Attendees were
# [16:14] * oedipus i used 26636 the new passcode
# [16:15] <Sean> as did I
# [16:15] * MichaelC zakim, call rhone_3a
# [16:15] * Zakim ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [16:15] * oedipus coming in loud and clear
# [16:15] * MichaelC better?
# [16:15] <Sean> ok hear you now
# [16:15] * oedipus thanks
# [16:17] * oedipus as far as i know it is only sean and myself on the phone
# [16:18] <Stevef> oedipus: I am here too
# [16:19] * oedipus sorry, didn't hear your beep!
# [16:19] * oedipus pinged john foliot but haven't heard back
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# [16:33] <oedipus> plh post on DV-4media accessibility and API for Media Resource 1.0 referencing http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-mediaont-api-1.0-20100608/ - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0060.html
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# [16:36] <sicking> PC: when discussing this on the list, please start a new thread for each item and put the moniker of the issue in the subject field
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# [16:37] <Sean> am I on the right call for the track discussion?
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# [16:37] * oedipus i believe so according to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda
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# [16:38] <paulc> Topic: Other uses of timed tracks
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# [16:38] <paulc> Testing is on #HTML-WG2
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# [16:40] <cyns> MV: we've been looking at mapping commercial video onto html 5
# [16:40] <cyns> video looks fine, UI for user guide is fine, but we have issues
# [16:40] <cyns> MV: things with issues are data.
# [16:40] <cyns> MV: data we extract out to do various things. might be usefult for timed tracks.
# [16:41] <eliot> ScribeNick: eliot
# [16:41] <mav> Examples of non-accessibility uses of Timed Tracks:
# [16:41] <mav> They are in-band timed tracks and media-resource-specific timed tracks.
# [16:41] <mav> 1. Programmatic access to closed caption data for non-display usage (e.g. searching for keywords)
# [16:41] <mav> 2. Television content rating codes
# [16:41] <mav> - example: US Parental Controls (V-chip)
# [16:41] <mav> http://tia.nufu.eu/std/EIA-744-A
# [16:41] <mav> 3. Enhanced TV (ETV) application messaging
# [16:41] <mav> - example: NA Cable EISS (ETV Integrated Signaling Stream) messaging
# [16:41] <mav> http://www.cablelabs.com/specifications/OC-SP-ETV-AM1.0-I05-091125.pdf
# [16:41] <mav> 4. Client-side ad insertion
# [16:41] <mav> - example: SCTE 35
# [16:41] <eliot> MV: these cd be out of band
# [16:41] <eliot> ...examples from north american cable
# [16:42] <eliot> ...but cd be from around the world
# [16:42] <eliot> ...first is programmatic access
# [16:42] <eliot> ..look for key words, not for display
# [16:42] * Quits: kohei_ (kohei@118.21.30.171) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [16:42] <eliot> ...but for an app to use
# [16:42] <eliot> ...you can use associated metadata
# [16:42] <eliot> ...never exposed to user
# [16:43] <eliot> ...is it possible in current architecture?
# [16:43] <oedipus> API for Media Resource 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-mediaont-api-1.0-20100608/
# [16:43] <eliot> DS: given that audio group...camera to picture, etc., that programmatic access what's the current thinking?
# [16:44] <eliot> FO: spec says you can extract these. unique id for every queue
# [16:44] <eliot> FO: I think this is supported today. You can switch tracks
# [16:44] <eliot> ...one concern:
# [16:44] <eliot> ...some ppl think that the captdn't be exposedion
# [16:45] <eliot> s/exposedion/exposed
# [16:45] <eliot> Janina: DRM issue
# [16:45] <eliot> MV: same could be said to programmatic access to the audio
# [16:45] <eliot> FO: Is this a real thing or are we being
# [16:46] <eliot> MV: never heard anyone compain of it (afaik)
# [16:46] <eliot> DS:I could imagine someone complaining
# [16:46] <Sean> In TV captions are somewhat obscured because you need specialist equipment to extract them
# [16:47] <Sean> on the web its going to be easy to wholesale grab them
# [16:47] <eliot> DS: you can display these captions but cannot use them programmatically
# [16:47] <eliot> janina: using them as intended is not republishing
# [16:48] <eliot> MV: 2nd example comes from tv content rating code
# [16:48] <Sean> A format could add explict metadata to allow third party use of specific items
# [16:48] <eliot> ...in US, v-chip system is a rating code
# [16:48] <eliot> ...they come down as a simple code that's sent continuously and changes for boundaries
# [16:48] <eliot> ...it is timed, in that it's associated w/ a certain time
# [16:49] <eliot> ...but you'd want to know the value when you tune in and then when it changes
# [16:49] <oedipus> captioning re-uses copyrighted content to make it accessible to those who cannot hear along with indications of purely aural events (such as a door slam) -- audio description, it has been argued, is commentary on copyrighted content
# [16:49] <eliot> DS: could be a track type
# [16:50] <eliot> MV: could black out a certain value
# [16:50] <eliot> ...tv's are looking to implement html5 interface
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# [16:50] <eliot> MV: description of current APIs seem very caption-oriented
# [16:50] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
# [16:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [16:51] * oedipus welcome, geoff, we're talking tracks
# [16:51] <eliot> ...you wouldn't want a cue up every time it's sent
# [16:51] <eliot> MV: 3rd example
# [16:51] <gfreed> okay, will be calling in in a minute.
# [16:51] <eliot> ...enhanced tv: an interactive element
# [16:51] * oedipus gfreed, passcode is now 26636
# [16:51] <eliot> ...example: game show that you play along with
# [16:51] <gfreed> got it-- thanks.
# [16:52] <eliot> have to have timed cues that correspond to the moment
# [16:52] * oedipus who is presenting (who is MV)?
# [16:52] <eliot> ...applications cues...metadata? application cues?
# [16:52] <eliot> ...in NA cable, EITS
# [16:52] <eliot> ...comes down to ..you deliver app-specific things
# [16:53] <eliot> ...then a block of data
# [16:53] <eliot> MK: Can be more than Q&A. Could it be smiles? Advertisements?
# [16:53] <eliot> MV: absolutely. Send me more info. Main use in US is for augmented advertising
# [16:54] <eliot> ....seems very light time tracks, but we need to figure out how to make it work
# [16:54] <eliot> ...people expect to have interactive experience on tv and PC
# [16:54] <eliot> ...final example is ad insertion
# [16:54] <eliot> ...ability to get video content locally
# [16:54] <kliehm> s/smiles/SMIL (Synchronized Multimedia Integration Language)/
# [16:55] <eliot> ...cues sent down that tell you to run a local ad. maybe different for different users. allows targeted ads.
# [16:55] <mav> URL for ad insertion: http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/standards/ANSI_SCTE%2035%202007%20Digital%20Program%20Insertion%20Cueing%20Message%20for%20Cable.pdf
# [16:55] <eliot> Janina: can locate to a degree by IP
# [16:55] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
# [16:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [16:55] <eliot> Paul: are you asking if it's currently supported?
# [16:55] <eliot> janina: it comes from wherever it comes from
# [16:56] <eliot> MV: the first three could be supported but I am not sure
# [16:56] <eliot> There's a scheduler at the networl levey. with a special size
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# [16:56] <eliot> s networl levey/network level
# [16:57] <eliot> OA: the red button on England
# [16:57] <eliot> MV: it's the activation in the UK
# [16:57] <eliot> ....w/ the key definitions they're talking about adding to CSS spec, you'd have support forthe red button
# [16:57] <eliot> ...red button loads the app associated at that time with that channel
# [16:58] <eliot> ....some apps have no screen events
# [16:58] <eliot> ...but some things want to be synchronized, like a game or an ad
# [16:58] <eliot> ...so after you load the app, it needs to listen to a timetrack for these messages
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# [16:59] <eliot> ....not sure how to do the fourth one...client-side ad insertions
# [16:59] <eliot> DS: sounds like a delivery issue, rather than HTML issue
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# [17:01] <eliot> MV: is time tracks the right place to put those URLs?
# [17:01] <eliot> DS: if it's interstitial you can use the media format
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# [17:02] <eliot> ....if it's parallel use time metadata
# [17:02] <eliot> MV: TV content rating codes
# [17:02] <eliot> paul: are you expecting UA to respect that as well
# [17:02] <eliot> MV: that's an issue of law
# [17:03] <eliot> paul: any different than subtitles?
# [17:03] <eliot> MV: a lot less data
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# [17:03] <eliot> MV: does the API work right so I don't get 60 hits a minute
# [17:03] <eliot> ....it only changes when it changes.
# [17:04] <eliot> Janiina: wouldn't solution just be "What's the current value?"
# [17:04] <eliot> MV: a callback when it changes would be good
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# [17:05] <eliot> DavidC:initiative to specify how to access this info: the open IPTV forum
# [17:05] <eliot> ....message is triggered every time there's a change
# [17:05] <MikeSmith> -> http://www.openiptvforum.org/specifications.html Open IPTV Forum specs
# [17:05] <eliot> MV: an API that says "Access this control," or something.
# [17:06] <eliot> ...want a media resource specific mapping
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# [17:06] <eliot> ...so you can tell anyone, if you want to do this......
# [17:06] <eliot> ...the html5 spec doesn't know anything about tv
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# [17:07] <eliot> MV: for content rating code, if we map it, but it may be in there, but not the API to tell you when something changes
# [17:08] <eliot> PC: when you want the server to push something to the client...perhaps a potential technology solution is a bidirectional solution
# [17:09] <eliot> MV: I was thinking about two parallel bands. Doing it out of band, well, the data's not sent like that. And you may have latency
# [17:09] <eliot> DavidC: the broadcaster has a very short delay.
# [17:09] <eliot> AO: If you're using multicast, you won't want a 1:1
# [17:10] <eliot> MV: clientside ad insertion, soulds like the way DS described it mat be a way to do it
# [17:10] <eliot> DS: local video?
# [17:10] <eliot> MV: sometimes it is done using local video, but as you said it doesn't matter what server it comes from
# [17:10] <eliot> ...MV: that's it
# [17:11] <eliot> rssagent, make minutes
# [17:11] <eliot> rrsagent, make minutes
# [17:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html eliot
# [17:13] <eliot> MV: will there be best practices?
# [17:13] <eliot> PC: sometimes individuals will make a primer
# [17:13] <eliot> PC: may be another group in w3c that's already working on it
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# [17:14] <eliot> ...I personally think that one thing that's going to happen is that there will be a fair number of comments asking if "I can do X" and I suspect that we will take it off line and say yes. If we say no, the challenge is how they'll respond.
# [17:15] <eliot> MV: and for the one issue, should I submit a bug?
# [17:15] <eliot> PC: Yes, but realize that we are in LC bugs right now. Earlier is better.
# [17:15] <eliot> rrsagent, make minutes
# [17:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html eliot
# [17:16] <davidC> This topic may fit in the Web and Tv charter: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/webTVIGcharter.html
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# [17:24] <kliehm> TOPIC: Limited Devices
# [17:26] <MikeSmith> Fukuno-san speaking
# [17:26] <MikeSmith> Taisuke Fukuno
# [17:26] <MikeSmith> TF: as a developers, we want to create apps for all devices
# [17:26] <MikeSmith> … but not all mobile handsets can support full HTML5
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> TF: people don't change their mobile handsets very often
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> … the hang on to them for a few years
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> TF: we want to produce a downloadable browser
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# [17:28] <oedipus_away> HTML5 basic like XHTML Basic?
# [17:28] <MikeSmith> … because of resource limitations on these devices, we need to consider something like Compact HTML
# [17:28] <MikeSmith> Paul Cotton
# [17:29] <MikeSmith> PC: I bet there are a bunch of people in the room who don't want to do this at all
# [17:29] * Quits: TabAtkinsTPAC (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [17:30] <MikeSmith> … we have people in this room who have mobile devices that are [marketed as "HTML5" devices]
# [17:30] * oedipus_away wonders if the windows phone will force non-sighted users to use Narrator
# [17:30] <MikeSmith> PC: there will be devices for which are capable of running all features from HTML5, some that have no hope of running many features from HTML5, and some in between
# [17:30] <Ileana> q+
# [17:30] * Zakim sees Ileana on the speaker queue
# [17:31] <MikeSmith> Dave Singer
# [17:31] <mav> q+
# [17:31] * Zakim sees Ileana, mav on the speaker queue
# [17:31] <MikeSmith> DS: we have spent a lot of time at the W3C on promoting the idea of "One Web"
# [17:31] <MikeSmith> … and we have seen [profiling efforts in the past not work out]
# [17:31] <oedipus_away> wonders if the windows phone will force non-sighted users to use Narrator
# [17:32] <oedipus_away> Narrator ain't VoiceOver...
# [17:32] <MikeSmith> AO: you sometimes have mobile devices that don't have normal buttons, you want to use them while driving, etc.
# [17:32] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@24.22.131.46)
# [17:32] * Quits: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82) (Quit: igarashi)
# [17:33] * Quits: nimbupani (Adium@24.22.131.46) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [17:33] <MikeSmith> … [there is some overlap with accessibility needs]
# [17:33] <MikeSmith> q?
# [17:33] * Zakim sees Ileana, mav on the speaker queue
# [17:33] <MikeSmith> q+
# [17:33] * Zakim sees Ileana, mav, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [17:33] <kliehm> q+
# [17:33] * Zakim sees Ileana, mav, MikeSmith, kliehm on the speaker queue
# [17:33] <MikeSmith> PC: I spoke with a rep from LG
# [17:34] * Quits: plinss_lyon (plinss@84.14.50.82) (Quit: plinss_lyon)
# [17:34] <MikeSmith> … and it was about how it would be preferable to have a video codec specified in HTML5
# [17:35] <Ileana> q+
# [17:35] * Zakim sees Ileana, mav, MikeSmith, kliehm on the speaker queue
# [17:35] <MikeSmith> … and I pointed out that the TV industry could decide on a profile of HTML the did mandate a particular video codec
# [17:35] <MikeSmith> … so we would end up with vertical standards
# [17:35] <MikeSmith> … but you are unlikely to see W3C do that
# [17:36] <MikeSmith> … not saying that W3C will not do that for sure
# [17:36] <kliehm> ack Il
# [17:36] * Zakim sees mav, MikeSmith, kliehm on the speaker queue
# [17:36] <dsinger> q?
# [17:36] * Zakim sees mav, MikeSmith, kliehm on the speaker queue
# [17:36] <paulc> ack mav
# [17:36] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, kliehm on the speaker queue
# [17:36] * karl sees that Taisuke Fukuno is working on a browser JIG http://www.jig.jp/common.html
# [17:37] <kliehm> q?
# [17:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, kliehm on the speaker queue
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> MV: We are working on such a vertical standard
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> … e.g., adding encryption and DRM
# [17:37] <kliehm> q+ Ileana
# [17:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, kliehm, Ileana on the speaker queue
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> MV: I have been hearing the same think about the cost issue
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> … footprint issue
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> MV: the range of connected TVs
# [17:38] * Quits: Norm (ndw@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [17:38] <MikeSmith> … lower end TVs vs connected TVs
# [17:38] <MikeSmith> MV: could be a matter of just waiting
# [17:39] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@94.172.220.38) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630])
# [17:39] <MikeSmith> MV: the low-end devices just have set functions
# [17:39] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [17:39] <MikeSmith> MV: have discussed how they might develop by using a subset of HTML5
# [17:40] <MikeSmith> MV: they are currently using non-standard drawing APIs
# [17:40] <MikeSmith> … but they could be developing using the HTML5 canvas element
# [17:40] <eliot> q+
# [17:40] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, kliehm, Ileana, eliot on the speaker queue
# [17:41] <MikeSmith> … which would make them upwardly compatible
# [17:41] <MikeSmith> MV: JS+<canvas>
# [17:41] * Parts: Kangchan (Kangchan_L@84.14.50.82)
# [17:41] <MikeSmith> AO: another proof that accessible <canvas> is important
# [17:41] <paulc> ack Ileana
# [17:41] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, kliehm, eliot on the speaker queue
# [17:42] <oedipus_away> strong plus 1 to AO -- canvas a11y needs to be addressed before HTML5 deployed in TVs and other devices
# [17:42] <MikeSmith> Ileana: there is an opportunity to create a profile
# [17:43] <MikeSmith> … maybe you don't want to say "profiling"
# [17:43] <MikeSmith> … but instead just define the basic elements
# [17:43] <kliehm> q?
# [17:43] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, kliehm, eliot on the speaker queue
# [17:43] <paulc> ack MikeSMith
# [17:43] * Zakim sees kliehm, eliot on the speaker queue
# [17:43] <taisukef_> q?
# [17:43] * Zakim sees kliehm, eliot on the speaker queue
# [17:44] * Joins: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82)
# [17:45] <paulc> q+
# [17:45] * Zakim sees kliehm, eliot, paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:46] <richardschwerdtfe> tried to call in - conference is restricted
# [17:46] <richardschwerdtfe> sigh
# [17:47] * oedipus_away dropped off so that rich could join -- guess we went over the scheduled hour?
# [17:47] <Ileana> q+
# [17:47] * Zakim sees kliehm, eliot, paulc, Ileana on the speaker queue
# [17:47] <paulc> ack kliehm
# [17:47] * Zakim sees eliot, paulc, Ileana on the speaker queue
# [17:47] <MikeSmith> KS: the feedback we got from vendors in the Asian market was that [the profiles we were developing] were not up to date with the current device capabilities
# [17:48] <MikeSmith> MK: we find that there are 3 broad classes of devices
# [17:48] <richardschwerdtfe> no luck getting in
# [17:48] <richardschwerdtfe> oh well - back to processing aria comments
# [17:49] <MikeSmith> MK: I wonder if there is a use-case for "lo-fi" HTML5-capable phones … limited profile, just for, e.g., gaming
# [17:49] <MikeSmith> q?
# [17:49] * Zakim sees eliot, paulc, Ileana on the speaker queue
# [17:49] <mav> q+
# [17:49] * Zakim sees eliot, paulc, Ileana, mav on the speaker queue
# [17:49] <paulc> ack eliot
# [17:49] * Zakim sees paulc, Ileana, mav on the speaker queue
# [17:49] <eliot> http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/mobilweb
# [17:49] <MikeSmith> EG: I think this is an authoring issue
# [17:50] * kliehm I'm afraid the call-in time slot assigned by Michael_Cooper has ended, he didn't renew it for the current session . :(
# [17:50] <MikeSmith> EG: not sure what you are asking for from the WG
# [17:50] * Quits: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [17:50] <MikeSmith> PC: problem is, there are some devices that HTML5 [content] won't run on
# [17:50] * Joins: nimbupani (Adium@174.31.233.71)
# [17:50] <MikeSmith> AO: simple example: several video elements on a page
# [17:51] <MikeSmith> q?
# [17:51] * Zakim sees paulc, Ileana, mav on the speaker queue
# [17:51] <kliehm> AO: only one decode
# [17:51] <MikeSmith> PC: for the last 7 or 8 years, I have been involved with WSI
# [17:51] <kliehm> s/decode/decoder/
# [17:51] <MikeSmith> … = Web Services Interoperability
# [17:51] * Joins: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82)
# [17:52] <MikeSmith> … we don't purport that the profiles we developed for WSI were appropriate for everybody
# [17:52] <MikeSmith> … they are aimed at developers
# [17:52] <MikeSmith> … we chose to not try to define them at W3c
# [17:53] <MikeSmith> … W3C does not have the vertical expertise to write all the vertical profiles
# [17:53] <MikeSmith> … I thin there is nothing wrong with that
# [17:53] <MikeSmith> … can take the "generic" W3C spec
# [17:53] <MikeSmith> … [and build a vertical profile from it that meets your market needs]
# [17:54] <MikeSmith> PC: of course if you find mistakes, you can bring that info back
# [17:54] <dsinger> q+
# [17:54] * Zakim sees paulc, Ileana, mav, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [17:54] <kliehm> ack paul
# [17:54] * Zakim sees Ileana, mav, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [17:54] <MikeSmith> PC: don't expect those profiles to be done at the W3C
# [17:54] <paulc> ack paulc
# [17:54] * Zakim sees Ileana, mav, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [17:55] <paulc> ack Ileana
# [17:55] * Zakim sees mav, dsinger on the speaker queue
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# [17:55] <MikeSmith> PC: instead expect them to be done by the domain experts, elsewhere
# [17:55] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [17:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [17:55] <MikeSmith> Ileana: I know there are mobile operators here at W3C who are here in part because they are interested in this area
# [17:56] <MikeSmith> … this is the kind of thing that is needed for 70% or 80% of the market
# [17:56] <paulc> q+
# [17:56] * Zakim sees mav, dsinger, paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:56] * Quits: Ileana (il9507@84.14.50.82) (Connection reset by peer)
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# [17:57] <MikeSmith> Ileana: I think there is expertise at W3C to address the needs of the mobile market
# [17:57] * Quits: colinsullivan (colinsulli@129.161.32.229) (Quit: colinsullivan)
# [17:57] <MikeSmith> … the W3C needs to have a clear message about this
# [17:57] <MikeSmith> q?
# [17:57] * Zakim sees mav, dsinger, paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:57] <paulc> ack mav
# [17:57] * Zakim sees dsinger, paulc on the speaker queue
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# [17:58] <MikeSmith> MV: subsetting HTML itself is really problematic
# [17:58] <MikeSmith> … but there is a case where the W3C may be more interested
# [17:58] <MikeSmith> … canvas is one of those cases
# [17:59] <MikeSmith> … the canvas environment is a separate world
# [17:59] * Quits: frankolivier (540e3252@78.129.202.38) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [17:59] <MikeSmith> … it is a procedural world, rather than a declarative world
# [18:00] <MikeSmith> … thin layer on top of graphics capabilities that are already on the devicdes
# [18:00] * Quits: andreip (andreip@74.125.121.49) (Ping timeout)
# [18:00] <paulc> ack dsinger
# [18:00] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [18:00] <MikeSmith> … and there are already all kinds of such non-standard thin layers for graphics that are doing this
# [18:01] <taisukef_> How will I enter te queue?
# [18:01] * Quits: jorlow (jorlow@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jorlow)
# [18:01] <MikeSmith> q+ taisukef_
# [18:01] * Zakim sees paulc, taisukef_ on the speaker queue
# [18:01] * oedipus_away taisukef_ use "q+"
# [18:01] <MikeSmith> MV: but JS+canvas could be the standard way to make this thin layer for graphics
# [18:01] <taisukef_> thanks!
# [18:01] <taisukef_> q+
# [18:01] * Zakim sees paulc, taisukef_ on the speaker queue
# [18:02] <MikeSmith> DS: what features do we need in CSS and HTML to be sensitive toward needs of limited devices
# [18:02] <paulc> ack Paulc
# [18:02] * Zakim sees taisukef_ on the speaker queue
# [18:02] <MikeSmith> q?
# [18:02] * Zakim sees taisukef_ on the speaker queue
# [18:02] <MikeSmith> PC: example I gave was outside of W3C
# [18:02] <MikeSmith> … but it could be done within the W3C
# [18:02] <MikeSmith> … just as well as it could be done outside
# [18:03] <MikeSmith> PC: but [we in this HTML WG] have a priority to just get the core spec done
# [18:03] <MikeSmith> … and then others can create profiles
# [18:04] <MikeSmith> PC: so we should be careful not to tell interested parties to go somewhere else
# [18:04] <mav> q+artur
# [18:04] * Zakim sees taisukef_, artur on the speaker queue
# [18:04] <MikeSmith> Ileana: Somebody has to find the best organizational environment where this kind of work to take place
# [18:05] <MikeSmith> q?
# [18:05] * Zakim sees taisukef_, artur on the speaker queue
# [18:05] <davidC> +1 on paul : profiling is already ongoing, and many of us are here to make sure the spec is delivered in time
# [18:05] <MikeSmith> PC: I don't thin you are going to get that resolution from the HTML WG
# [18:05] <MikeSmith> PC: there are people on both sides of this argument
# [18:05] * Parts: wonsuk (wslee@84.14.50.82)
# [18:06] <paulc> ack taisukef
# [18:06] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
# [18:06] <MikeSmith> TF: HTML5 does not need guidelines or profiles
# [18:07] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Ping timeout)
# [18:07] <MikeSmith> TF: HTML5 is core, but video, canvas, CSS are "extensible" [maybe means "extensions on top of HTML"?]
# [18:08] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
# [18:08] <MikeSmith> PC: if people want us to "teir" the HTML5 spec like this, then a good time to do that would be when we go into testing
# [18:08] <MikeSmith> PC: so there is some synergy here
# [18:09] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:09] <MikeSmith> q?
# [18:09] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
# [18:09] <paulc> ack artur
# [18:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:10] * Quits: freedom (freedom@84.14.50.82) (Quit: freedom)
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> AO: canvas will be misused…
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> … I would appreciate that if profiles are being done, that they get done within the W3C
# [18:10] * Quits: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82) (Quit: igarashi)
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> PC: tomorrow at 11, we have a session on canvas accessibility
# [18:11] <MikeSmith> … and we can discuss this more then
# [18:11] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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# [18:13] <oedipus_away> paulc, rich s - the lead on canvas a11y indicated when i pinged him that the canvas slot is a bit too early for him -- could it be adjusted, as it wouldn't make much sense to talk about canvas a11y without him
# [18:16] <oedipus_away> paulc, rich is in the channel -- he is richardschwerdtfe
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# [18:19] <oedipus_away> MikeSmith - can you communicate to the chairs that rich s - the lead on canvas a11y - indicated when i pinged him that the canvas slot is a bit too early for him -- could it be adjusted, as it wouldn't make much sense to talk about canvas a11y without him
# [18:23] <MikeSmith> oedipus_away: Paul says we can switch the canvas and ARIA slots
# [18:23] <MikeSmith> would that work?
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# [18:26] <MikeSmith> so canvas would be at 14:00 local time here
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# [18:50] <adrianba> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [18:50] <RRSAgent> ok, adrianba; I will not start a new log at midnight
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# Session Close: Fri Nov 05 00:00:00 2010

The end :)