/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2010-11-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 05 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  49. # [08:36] * oedipus mornin' michael
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  52. # [08:39] * oedipus janina, markus is trying to attend the EPUB session -- needs someone to piggy-back on to call in on skype
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  56. # [08:40] * janina Gregory, is Markus on this channel? html-wg?
  57. # [08:40] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
  58. # [08:41] * oedipus no, he's in #html-wg2 waiting for EPUB people to get a skype connection
  59. # [08:41] * oedipus did you need to talk to him?
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  62. # [08:42] * oedipus janina, markus has entered the chat roomm
  63. # [08:42] * janina Markus, Gregory; Michael Cooper is going to the other meeting and will try to Skype Markus in.
  64. # [08:42] * oedipus thank you!!!
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  72. # [08:44] <krisk> Agenda: General Accessibility (part2)
  73. # [08:44] <paulc> rrsagent, make minutes public
  74. # [08:44] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', paulc. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  75. # [08:45] <oedipus> zakim, code?
  76. # [08:45] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I don't know what conference this is
  77. # [08:46] * janina Gregory, We'll get zakim up momentarily
  78. # [08:46] * oedipus ok, just checking
  79. # [08:46] <paulc> rrsagent, create the minutes
  80. # [08:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
  81. # [08:46] <paulc> Topic: General Accessibility (part 2)
  82. # [08:47] <paulc> scribenick: krisk
  83. # [08:47] * oedipus paulc, note that rrsagent is logging to yesterday's minutes (2010/11/04
  84. # [08:47] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@84.14.50.82)
  85. # [08:47] <paulc> We decided to have one long minutes.
  86. # [08:47] * oedipus fine with me, just thought you should know
  87. # [08:47] <paulc> Thanks.
  88. # [08:48] <paulc> We are still getting setup from a phone call to #html-wg
  89. # [08:48] * oedipus will "stay tuned"
  90. # [08:48] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 120 minutes?
  91. # [08:48] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)07:45Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 120 minutes until 0945Z
  92. # [08:48] <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
  93. # [08:48] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
  94. # [08:48] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)07:45Z has now started
  95. # [08:48] * Joins: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82)
  96. # [08:49] <eliot> Url for change proposals: http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
  97. # [08:49] * oedipus on the phone
  98. # [08:49] <janina> zakim, who's here?
  99. # [08:49] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
  100. # [08:49] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@84.14.50.82)
  101. # [08:49] <Zakim> On IRC I see eliot, adrianba, Zakim, cyns, paulc, krisk, weinig, myakura, jaeyeollim, mgylling, kliehm, SGondo, shan, dsinger, mjs, janina, MichaelC, kensaku, oedipus, gavin__,
  102. # [08:49] * oedipus thanks for connectivity
  103. # [08:49] <Zakim> ... freedom, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, Lachy, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, silvia, Martijnc, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin,
  104. # [08:49] <krisk> We will start where we left off at issue 31
  105. # [08:49] <Zakim> ... hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai, drry, hsivonen, jwm
  106. # [08:49] <paulc> issue-31?
  107. # [08:49] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-31
  108. # [08:49] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
  109. # [08:49] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
  110. # [08:49] <eliot> issue-31?
  111. # [08:49] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-31
  112. # [08:49] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
  113. # [08:49] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
  114. # [08:49] <oedipus> present+ Gregory_Rosmaita
  115. # [08:49] * MichaelC note I'm setting up the calls in blocks just for scheduled sessions, we'll need a new code to use later in the day
  116. # [08:50] * oedipus i'm here
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  118. # [08:50] * MichaelC ping me if help needed, otherwise will pay attention to other channel
  119. # [08:50] * oedipus thanks MC
  120. # [08:50] * janina How do we get zakim, to call?
  121. # [08:50] * oedipus zakim is already connected -- i'm on the line
  122. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  123. # [08:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  124. # [08:51] <oedipus> conf code is 26631
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  126. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  127. # [08:51] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
  128. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Rhone_3a
  129. # [08:51] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  130. # [08:51] <adrianba> zakim, call rhone_3a
  131. # [08:51] <Zakim> ok, adrianba; the call is being made
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  133. # [08:52] <krisk> shelly: we are looking a the change propose for issue 30 - last 2 items
  134. # [08:53] <oedipus> s/shelly:/cynthia:/
  135. # [08:53] * oedipus krisk, she's cynthia shelly (cyns)
  136. # [08:53] <krisk> cyns: next part is to update the definition of the img tag
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  141. # [08:55] <oedipus> alt is not fallback content because it is primary content for those who cannot process images or have image loading turned off
  142. # [08:55] <krisk> cyns: the goal of these updates is to update the concept of fallback
  143. # [08:55] <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510#Details
  144. # [08:55] <krisk> janina: do people object to this?
  145. # [08:55] <oedipus> q+ to say that alt is not fallback content because it is primary content for those who cannot process images or have image loading turned off
  146. # [08:55] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  147. # [08:55] <kliehm> s/for issue 30/for issue 31/
  148. # [08:56] <krisk> janina: an image is an image, they are not the same
  149. # [08:56] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
  150. # [08:56] <oedipus> q?
  151. # [08:56] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  152. # [08:56] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
  153. # [08:56] <kliehm> Cyns prefers http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510#With_Suggested_Definition_of_the_Image_Element:
  154. # [08:58] * Joins: artur (BluFudge@217.12.15.52)
  155. # [08:58] <davidC> present+ David_Corvoysier
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  157. # [08:59] <krisk> cyns: option #1 is do nothing
  158. # [08:59] <krisk> cyns: optins #2 is 'with suggest definition of the image element'
  159. # [08:59] <krisk> s/optins/option/
  160. # [08:59] <cyns> An img element represents an image.
  161. # [08:59] <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, and the value of the alt attribute is the img element's fallback content.
  162. # [08:59] <cyns> option 1: Do Nothing. Current spec text
  163. # [09:00] <cyns> Option 2:
  164. # [09:00] <cyns> The <img> element represents content that can be rendered visually (as an image) and textually. The src attribute provides visual content in the form of an image and the alt attribute provides textual content. The content in the src and alt attributes must convey equivalent meaning.
  165. # [09:00] <cyns> Option 3:
  166. # [09:00] <cyns> An img element represents an image.
  167. # [09:00] <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, and the value of the alt attribute is text content that is rendered when the image is not displayed by a User Agent.
  168. # [09:00] <oedipus> ack oe
  169. # [09:00] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say that alt is not fallback content because it is primary content for those who cannot process images or have image loading turned off
  170. # [09:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  171. # [09:01] <oedipus> GJR
  172. # [09:01] <oedipus> gregory
  173. # [09:01] <krisk> gjr: i prefer option #2
  174. # [09:01] <krisk> cyns: can you (gjr) can you live with option #3?
  175. # [09:02] <oedipus> would prefer wording that says that alt text is equivalent primary content
  176. # [09:02] <krisk> janina: I would prefer option #2
  177. # [09:02] <janina> equivalent text semantec?
  178. # [09:02] <krisk> gjr: I could live with option #3 with a change
  179. # [09:03] <krisk> paulc: is not the primary question is alt text the primary content?
  180. # [09:03] <oedipus> yes
  181. # [09:03] <eliot> s/ primary content/primary equivalent content
  182. # [09:03] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  183. # [09:03] <krisk> cyns: the issue is fallback
  184. # [09:04] <kliehm> s/is alt text the primary content/is alt text the primary equivalent content/
  185. # [09:04] <krisk> janina: can we solve this w/o primary and fallback?
  186. # [09:04] <oedipus> PROPOSED MODIFIED #3: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, while the value of the alt attribute is to provide equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is turned off
  187. # [09:04] <oedipus> PROPOSED MODIFIED #3: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is turned off
  188. # [09:04] * Quits: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  189. # [09:05] <dsinger> "or for those to whom images are not displayed"?
  190. # [09:05] <krisk> gfr see the second PROPOSED MODIFIED #3:
  191. # [09:05] <cyns> when are not displayed
  192. # [09:05] * Joins: yuma_1985 (yuma_1985@84.14.50.82)
  193. # [09:05] <cyns> when images are unavailable
  194. # [09:06] <krisk> janina: i like the PROPOSED MODIFIED #3:
  195. # [09:06] <oedipus> GJR takes dsinger's suggestion as a friendly ammendment
  196. # [09:06] <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
  197. # [09:06] * Joins: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82)
  198. # [09:06] <krisk> cyns: do we want the first sentence?
  199. # [09:07] <cyns> An img element represents an image.
  200. # [09:07] <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is turned off
  201. # [09:07] <oedipus> plus 1 to cyns
  202. # [09:07] <krisk> janina: let we like this as a group?
  203. # [09:08] <krisk> paulc: what I am hearing - we have 3 intial proposals
  204. # [09:08] <cyns> the image given by the src attibute is the embedded contont; the value of the alt attributge provides equivalen content when images are unavailable
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  206. # [09:08] <krisk> paulc: now we are comming up with 2 new proposals
  207. # [09:08] <krisk> Option #1 is 'the image given by the src attibute is the embedded contont; the value of the alt attributge provides equivalen content when images are unavailable'
  208. # [09:09] <krisk> cyns: removes the 'for whole'
  209. # [09:10] <krisk> gjr: asks for minor change
  210. # [09:10] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  211. # [09:10] <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content when images are not displayed
  212. # [09:10] <oedipus> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled
  213. # [09:10] * Joins: homata (homata@84.14.50.82)
  214. # [09:10] <krisk> cyns: note that we will still keep the first sentence
  215. # [09:10] <oedipus> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled
  216. # [09:11] <krisk> Option 2: is change nothing
  217. # [09:11] * Joins: Vagner-br (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  218. # [09:11] <krisk> cyns: do we agree to take #1
  219. # [09:11] <oedipus> slight amendment: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled
  220. # [09:12] <krisk> so new Option #1 is 'The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled'
  221. # [09:13] * Joins: Norm (ndw@84.14.50.82)
  222. # [09:13] * oedipus remember the words of the geeze -- tersify, tersify, tersify
  223. # [09:13] <krisk> cyns: either is fine
  224. # [09:14] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Ping timeout)
  225. # [09:14] <krisk> cyns: we need someone to write the change proposal
  226. # [09:14] <krisk> cyns: can you do the change proposal?
  227. # [09:14] <oedipus> trackbot, status?
  228. # [09:14] * trackbot knows about the following 29 users: Lachlan, Matthew, Larry, Michael(tm), Doug, Gregory, Philippe, Everett, Julian, Laura, Shawn, Cynthia, Henri, Maciej, James, Adrian, Frank, Richard, Ben, Joshue, Kris, Manu, Sam, Michael, Ian, Paul, Janina, David, Steve
  229. # [09:14] * oedipus i am gregory
  230. # [09:15] <krisk> action: gregory to draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element
  231. # [09:15] * RRSAgent records action 6
  232. # [09:15] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  233. # [09:15] <trackbot> Created ACTION-194 - Draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-11-12].
  234. # [09:15] * oedipus thanks
  235. # [09:16] <krisk> janina: Ok - lets move on to item #80
  236. # [09:16] <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
  237. # [09:16] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@84.14.50.82)
  238. # [09:16] <krisk> paulc: by definition this action items are due in a week
  239. # [09:16] <krisk> paulc: so it should be on the agenda for the next meeting
  240. # [09:16] <oedipus> issue-80?
  241. # [09:16] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-80
  242. # [09:16] <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
  243. # [09:16] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
  244. # [09:17] <krisk> cyns: reading http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80 to the group
  245. # [09:17] * oedipus whoever joijned via zakim, please enter your name using the "present+ Your_Name" syntax
  246. # [09:17] <Marco_Ranon> Present+ Marco_Ranon
  247. # [09:18] * oedipus thanks marco and good morning!
  248. # [09:18] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@84.14.50.82)
  249. # [09:18] <Marco_Ranon> hi Gregory
  250. # [09:18] <janina> q?
  251. # [09:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  252. # [09:18] <oedipus> "2 courses of action could remedy this: 1. require that browsers display the title attribute content on an image when the image is not available or in a device indpendent manner. 2. remove the the text "The title attribute is present and has a non-empty value." from http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-0.html"
  253. # [09:19] <janina> q?
  254. # [09:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  255. # [09:19] <cyns> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203
  256. # [09:19] <oedipus> related bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7362
  257. # [09:19] <krisk> janina: gjr do you want to speak to this?
  258. # [09:19] <krisk> cyns: I think the action would be to either A) close issue #80
  259. # [09:20] <krisk> the second action would be to B) add title to the change proposal
  260. # [09:21] <krisk> cyns: does anyone object to these two items?
  261. # [09:21] <oedipus> GJR: title is supplemental information, alt is equivalent information (or an attempt at equivalency)
  262. # [09:21] <krisk> janina: I am concerned is title a reasonable alt information
  263. # [09:21] <krisk> paulc: two issues
  264. # [09:21] <oedipus> q+ to say title is for supplemental information, alt is equivalent information (or an attempt at equivalency)
  265. # [09:21] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  266. # [09:21] <krisk> paulc: #1 how often do people use title
  267. # [09:22] <oedipus> q?
  268. # [09:22] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  269. # [09:22] <krisk> paulc: #2 when people do - is the title enough?
  270. # [09:22] <oedipus> q?
  271. # [09:22] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  272. # [09:22] <oedipus> ack oe
  273. # [09:22] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say title is for supplemental information, alt is equivalent information (or an attempt at equivalency)
  274. # [09:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  275. # [09:22] <kliehm> q+
  276. # [09:22] * Zakim sees kliehm on the speaker queue
  277. # [09:23] <krisk> dsinger: it seems that this is a really a UA not a conformance requirement
  278. # [09:23] <Marco_Ranon> +1 to GRJ, but fall back support is not consistent across AT
  279. # [09:24] <oedipus> good point, marco
  280. # [09:24] <oedipus> ack kl
  281. # [09:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  282. # [09:24] <krisk> gjr: most screen readers have this type of fallback object
  283. # [09:24] <artur> q+
  284. # [09:24] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
  285. # [09:24] <janina> q?
  286. # [09:24] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
  287. # [09:24] <kliehm> ack ar
  288. # [09:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  289. # [09:25] <oedipus> s/fallback object/fallback cascade model (when encounter image use alt, if no alt, labelledby, if no labelledby title, if no title filename/
  290. # [09:25] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
  291. # [09:25] <krisk> cyns: with fallback you can end up with duplicate information being presented, which is a poor experience
  292. # [09:25] <janina> q?
  293. # [09:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  294. # [09:26] <artur> q-
  295. # [09:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  296. # [09:26] <oedipus> note: many screen readers offer discrete control over images and images-used-as-links so that one could grab hyperlink text over @alt if that is what they user desires
  297. # [09:27] <kliehm> scribenick: kliehm
  298. # [09:27] * oedipus cyns, by that criterion, i'd never be able to scribe!
  299. # [09:27] * Joins: hidetaka (hidetaka@84.14.50.82)
  300. # [09:27] <kliehm> scribe: Martin_Kliehm
  301. # [09:29] <kliehm> cyns: There are two ways AT gets accessibility information: from the DOM and from the browsers. Currently title is map to the accessibility API. If title is not considered a suitable equivalent we would need to remove it from the accessibility API.
  302. # [09:30] * Quits: krisk (540e3252@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  303. # [09:30] <kliehm> janina: we wouldn't want title as a conforming alternative for image content.
  304. # [09:30] <oedipus> plus 1 to Janina - don't want "title" used as equivalent or fallback text, but supplementary meta-data about the object
  305. # [09:31] <oedipus> s/text, but supplementary/but for supplementary/
  306. # [09:31] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  307. # [09:31] * oedipus rrsagent, make minutes
  308. # [09:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  309. # [09:31] <kliehm> s/title is map/title is mapped/
  310. # [09:32] * janina Janina waves to Doug
  311. # [09:32] <cyns> The change proposal we resolved to draft yesterday to address teh conformance part of issue 31, which was to include the broadest possible set of text equivalents, will not include @title
  312. # [09:32] <cyns> That change proposal will also address issue 80.
  313. # [09:32] <kliehm> s/teh conformance part/the conformance part/
  314. # [09:33] * Joins: jun (jun@84.14.50.82)
  315. # [09:33] <kliehm> janina, cyns: disagreement?
  316. # [09:33] <cyns> If that change proposal is accepted, it implies a change to the HTML to Accessibility API mappings document such that @title would never map to accessible name
  317. # [09:34] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@69.162.163.148)
  318. # [09:34] <kliehm> janina: remaining items 123, 184
  319. # [09:34] <kliehm> s/123/122/
  320. # [09:34] <oedipus> issue-123?
  321. # [09:34] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-123
  322. # [09:34] <trackbot> ISSUE-123 -- Autofocus attribute security concerns -- closed
  323. # [09:34] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/123
  324. # [09:35] <oedipus> issue-122?
  325. # [09:35] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-122
  326. # [09:35] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
  327. # [09:35] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
  328. # [09:35] <janina> q?
  329. # [09:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  330. # [09:35] <kliehm> cyns: The "Lady of Shalott" example in the alt techniques document is disputed. It has been argued that it's improperly labeled, and that the image should be considered purely decorative rather than "enhance[ing] the themes or subject matter of the page content", and that it should be given empty alt text rather than a brief description. The scope of this issue is the Lady of Shalott...
  331. # [09:35] <kliehm> ...example, and in particular, the alt text used in it, the description of this example, and any other closely related matters.
  332. # [09:36] <oedipus> related bug 1: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9077
  333. # [09:36] <kliehm> cyns: change proposal #1: do nothing
  334. # [09:36] <oedipus> related bug 2: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9081
  335. # [09:36] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-122
  336. # [09:36] * dsinger if I am looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html-alt-techniques-20100624/ section 6.1, is this the example we're looking at?
  337. # [09:37] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0393.html
  338. # [09:37] <kliehm> paulc: the chairs issued a call for counter proposals last week
  339. # [09:37] <kliehm> oedipus: the Lady of Shalott example is used several times in the document.
  340. # [09:37] <kliehm> cyns: I think the example does the job
  341. # [09:37] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques
  342. # [09:38] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Ping timeout)
  343. # [09:38] <kliehm> paulc: Deadline is November 27 for alternate or counter proposals. It also implies to the document.
  344. # [09:38] * oedipus thanks, paul
  345. # [09:40] * Joins: anne (annevk@84.14.50.82)
  346. # [09:40] <paulc> Here is the end of the -122 thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0404.html
  347. # [09:40] <kliehm> paulc: If anybody wants to adopt Issue-122 and needs more time the chairs would extend the deadline.
  348. # [09:41] * oedipus closed wontfix needsmoreinfo
  349. # [09:42] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
  350. # [09:42] * Joins: yongil_jang (yongil@93.158.28.173)
  351. # [09:43] <kliehm> cyns: there were three survey options from yesterday's meeting
  352. # [09:44] <oedipus> in editor's draft the entirty of 4.8.1.1.1 General guidelines is "ISSUE-31 (alt-conformance-requirements) blocks progress to Last Call"
  353. # [09:44] <kliehm> paulc: I suggest taking the thread from the HTML list and putting it on the TF list
  354. # [09:44] <kliehm> janina: putting discussion of the "Lady of Shalott" example on the TF agenda for next week
  355. # [09:45] <oedipus> paulc, cyns, janina - the lady of shallot example follows the text "Examples where the image is purely decorative despite being relevant would include things like a photo of the Black Rock City landscape in a blog post about an event at Burning Man, or an image of a painting inspired by a poem, on a page reciting that poem. The following snippet shows an example of the latter case (only the...
  356. # [09:45] <oedipus> ...first verse is included in this snippet)" in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element
  357. # [09:45] <kliehm> issue-133?
  358. # [09:45] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-133
  359. # [09:45] <trackbot> ISSUE-133 -- Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) -- raised
  360. # [09:45] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
  361. # [09:45] <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10645
  362. # [09:46] <oedipus> q+ what i think we need for issue 180 is to get the lady of shallott example out of http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and replace example with code illustrating one of hixie's prose examples, like a photo of black rock city
  363. # [09:46] * Zakim oedipus, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  364. # [09:47] <oedipus> q+ to say what i think we need for issue 180 is to get the lady of shallott example out of http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and replace example with code illustrating one of hixie's prose examples, like a photo of black rock city
  365. # [09:47] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  366. # [09:47] <janina> q?
  367. # [09:47] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  368. # [09:47] * oedipus note, i am on queue to talk about disposing 1ssue 80
  369. # [09:48] * oedipus take others before me --
  370. # [09:48] <kliehm> cyns: Modal dialogs are usually created by JavaScript. Accessibility might be added with ARIA, but it depends on the author.
  371. # [09:48] <oedipus> ack me
  372. # [09:48] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say what i think we need for issue 180 is to get the lady of shallott example out of http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and
  373. # [09:48] <Zakim> ... replace example with code illustrating one of hixie's prose examples, like a photo of black rock city
  374. # [09:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  375. # [09:49] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
  376. # [09:50] <kliehm> oedipus: propopsing to write another example that will be posted to the a11y TF list
  377. # [09:50] <kliehm> q+
  378. # [09:50] * Zakim sees kliehm on the speaker queue
  379. # [09:53] <kliehm> kliehm, janina: there's consensus that modal is necessary, the question is whether we want to wait
  380. # [09:53] <kliehm> ack k
  381. # [09:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  382. # [09:54] <kliehm> paulc: since the bug has been escalated somebody doesn't want to wait
  383. # [09:54] <kliehm> (tracker issue has been added by Steve Faulkner)
  384. # [09:54] * oedipus pinged steve with passcode
  385. # [09:54] <oedipus> paulc, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
  386. # [09:54] <kliehm> cyns: adding text to the spec doesn't seem to be that difficult, but implementing might be
  387. # [09:56] * oedipus was i assigned an action item for 180?
  388. # [09:56] <oedipus> issue-80: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0071.html
  389. # [09:56] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-80.
  390. # [09:56] <trackbot> ISSUE-80 document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content notes added
  391. # [09:57] <kliehm> paulc: pinging Everett Zufelt to write a change proposal
  392. # [09:57] <oedipus> issue-80: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
  393. # [09:57] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-80.
  394. # [09:57] <trackbot> ISSUE-80 document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content notes added
  395. # [09:57] <kliehm> janina: putting issue 133 on the agenda of next week's call
  396. # [09:57] <kliehm> issue-134?
  397. # [09:57] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-134
  398. # [09:57] <trackbot> ISSUE-134 -- Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively -- raised
  399. # [09:57] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
  400. # [09:57] * oedipus FYI everett lives in tornonto and hosts accessibletwitter.com
  401. # [09:58] <oedipus> issue-180: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0071.html
  402. # [09:58] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-180.
  403. # [09:58] <trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-180 failed, please let sysreq know about it
  404. # [09:59] <oedipus> issue-180: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
  405. # [09:59] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-180.
  406. # [09:59] <trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-180 failed, please let sysreq know about it
  407. # [09:59] * oedipus grrr....
  408. # [10:00] <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example
  409. # [10:00] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  410. # [10:00] * RRSAgent records action 7
  411. # [10:00] <trackbot> Created ACTION-195 - - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-11-12].
  412. # [10:01] <kliehm> cyns: I would support a change proposal, but I think there are more urgent priorities.
  413. # [10:01] <kliehm> paulc: pinging Everett to provide a use case
  414. # [10:02] <oedipus> issue-122: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0071.html
  415. # [10:02] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-122.
  416. # [10:02] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example notes added
  417. # [10:02] <cyns> topic: bug review
  418. # [10:02] <oedipus> issue-122: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
  419. # [10:02] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-122.
  420. # [10:02] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example notes added
  421. # [10:04] <oedipus> action-195: this is bound to issue-122 "alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example"
  422. # [10:04] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-195.
  423. # [10:04] <trackbot> ACTION-195 - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example notes added
  424. # [10:04] * oedipus everett@zufelt.ca
  425. # [10:04] <cyns> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8885
  426. # [10:04] <oedipus> issue-122: this is bound to action-195
  427. # [10:04] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-122.
  428. # [10:04] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example notes added
  429. # [10:04] <cyns> scribenick: cyns
  430. # [10:05] <cyns> opens a larger issue. No consistent fallback for embedded content, canvas, svg, iframe, etc.
  431. # [10:05] <cyns> mk: If there is fallback content,
  432. # [10:06] <cyns> mk: if there is fallback content it is not used for accessiblity, except in teh case of canvas
  433. # [10:07] <cyns> mk: this bug is entitled embedded content, but gives an example about captioned video. Ian Hixon made a good point that this was inteded to apply to all elements in the section: audio, canvas, embed, iframe, img, etc
  434. # [10:07] * Quits: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  435. # [10:07] <artur> q+
  436. # [10:07] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
  437. # [10:07] <cyns> mk: frank yesterday said there should be accessible fallback content beyond a title attribute or alt text.
  438. # [10:07] <janina> q?
  439. # [10:07] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
  440. # [10:08] <cyns> ao: the differnce btwn canvas and all the toher elements, is that canvas doesn't have an underlying dom with sematnic inforamtion. the others do.
  441. # [10:08] * Joins: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82)
  442. # [10:08] <cyns> ao: the accessible dom makes canvas more like SVG in that you can navigate the dom to get accessiblity
  443. # [10:09] <cyns> mc: we would like consistent approach to fallbacks between different types of objects.
  444. # [10:09] <cyns> mc: we haven't come to an opinion about which mechanism we'd like to see
  445. # [10:10] <cyns> mk: should img be able to hold other elements as well?
  446. # [10:10] <cyns> mc: we'd like that in an ideal world. object was introduced in html 4 to address this issue, but it never took off
  447. # [10:11] <cyns> mc: we want direct semantic association of fallbacks, and the ability to differentiate between short and longer, richer fallbacks.
  448. # [10:11] * Quits: Vagner-br (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  449. # [10:11] <cyns> mc: but we also have to synch up with history of what has been implemented, and can be implemented
  450. # [10:11] <cyns> mk: embed, for example, there is fallback content possible, but only for browsers taht don't support the content
  451. # [10:12] <cyns> mc: if you use embed for flash content, users who have flash installed can't access the fallback, even if they can't use the flash content
  452. # [10:14] <cyns> mc: how important is consistency, and how much attention are we going to pay to backward compatibility, and some of the specifics: is alt good enough, or do we need richer fallback. and the issue of long fallbacks (longdesc vs. nested content)
  453. # [10:15] <janina> q?
  454. # [10:15] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
  455. # [10:15] <janina> q?
  456. # [10:15] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
  457. # [10:15] <janina> ack ar
  458. # [10:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  459. # [10:15] <cyns> cs: not sure that consistency is important enough to justify the difficulty of approaching them. details are very different, inconsisten in other ways.
  460. # [10:16] * Quits: oedipus (chatzilla@70.21.184.131) (Connection reset by peer)
  461. # [10:16] <cyns> ao: some elements already have dom fallback, others need to have it added. img would be nice, but...
  462. # [10:16] <cyns> js: consistency is almost a little theoretical because the situations are so different. the notion that workable fallback is available, and that you can get at it is important
  463. # [10:16] * Joins: plinss_lyon (plinss@212.180.75.100)
  464. # [10:16] * Joins: oedipus (chatzilla@70.21.184.131)
  465. # [10:17] <cyns> mk: PF asked Gez to file bug in january
  466. # [10:17] * oedipus ff crashed taking chatzilla with it
  467. # [10:17] <cyns> js: was part of our review
  468. # [10:18] <cyns> cs: PF having filed the bug doesn't mean PF thought it was high priority, jsut part of a broad review
  469. # [10:18] <oedipus> Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
  470. # [10:18] <cyns> cs: I would be ok with postponing consistency to the next version of html
  471. # [10:18] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
  472. # [10:19] <cyns> mk: consistency is a starting position, but we're not sure that each of these has a workable fallback mechanism. Ensuring that is important.
  473. # [10:19] * Quits: yongil_jang (yongil@93.158.28.173) (Ping timeout)
  474. # [10:19] <oedipus> i had a wiki page on a consistent approach to multimedia objects (including object and embed, but can't find it on any of the wikis
  475. # [10:19] * Joins: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82)
  476. # [10:20] <cyns> cs: action is to do a gap analysis for each element and propose individual bugs
  477. # [10:20] <cyns> cs: MK, do you own that? Can someone help him?
  478. # [10:21] <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
  479. # [10:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MichaelC
  480. # [10:21] * MichaelC why are logs going to yesterday?
  481. # [10:22] * oedipus i was told that the chairs wanted one big log of minutes for each room
  482. # [10:22] <cyns> pc: must get this done asap, because ian has Dec 8 deadline
  483. # [10:22] * adrianba logging to one log worked well for webapps
  484. # [10:22] <cyns> mk: bug triage team will take this on.
  485. # [10:22] * adrianba especially picking up from the previous day
  486. # [10:23] * oedipus adrianba, makes sense
  487. # [10:23] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  488. # [10:23] * kliehm also we began at 8:30 CET when it was still yesterday in the US
  489. # [10:24] * Quits: Norm (ndw@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Leaving...)
  490. # [10:24] <oedipus> Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
  491. # [10:24] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
  492. # [10:24] * MichaelC ok
  493. # [10:25] * oedipus should i stay on the line or drop? i think the line was reserved for 120 minutes, right?
  494. # [10:25] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  495. # [10:25] <Marco_Ranon> I won't be able to join the meeting for the rest of the day. I might stay on irc tho.
  496. # [10:26] * oedipus can i hang up to recharge my phone?
  497. # [10:26] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
  498. # [10:27] * Quits: gavin__ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  499. # [10:28] <Marco_Ranon> Bye everyone
  500. # [10:28] * kliehm next: ARIA / APIs at 11:00 CET
  501. # [10:28] * kliehm i.e. in 35 minutes
  502. # [10:28] * oedipus dropped off line to recharge phone
  503. # [10:29] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)07:45Z has ended
  504. # [10:29] <Zakim> Attendees were
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  514. # [10:38] <oedipus> FYI EPUB discussion from room 3B is minuted at: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html#item05
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  521. # [10:56] * oedipus steve faulkner will be joining us at the top of the hour
  522. # [10:58] <oedipus> ACTION-194: bound to ISSUE-31 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
  523. # [10:58] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-194.
  524. # [10:58] <trackbot> ACTION-194 Draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element notes added
  525. # [11:02] <kliehm> zakim, call Rhone_3A
  526. # [11:02] <Zakim> sorry, kliehm, I don't know what conference this is
  527. # [11:03] * oedipus martin, i think cooper closed the conference after the first session
  528. # [11:03] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 90 minutes?
  529. # [11:04] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)10:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 90 minutes until 1130Z
  530. # [11:04] <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
  531. # [11:04] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
  532. # [11:04] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)10:00Z has now started
  533. # [11:04] * oedipus thanks MC
  534. # [11:04] <oedipus> zakim, passcode?
  535. # [11:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), oedipus
  536. # [11:04] * oedipus back on line
  537. # [11:05] * oedipus steve faulkner will be joining us at the top of the hour
  538. # [11:05] <paulc> Topic: ARIA mappings
  539. # [11:05] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  540. # [11:06] <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
  541. # [11:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
  542. # [11:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see yosuke, mjs, Martijnc, Norm, kohei, plh, gavin_, oedipus, plinss_lyon, kennyluck, anne, fantasai, jun, shepazu, adrianba, sylvaing, homata, taisukef, yuma_1985, artur,
  543. # [11:06] <Zakim> ... kensaku, davidC, wonsuk, seungjae, MikeSmith, Zakim, cyns, paulc, weinig, myakura, mgylling, kliehm, shan, dsinger, janina, MichaelC, freedom, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj,
  544. # [11:06] * Joins: jorlow (jorlow@74.125.57.60)
  545. # [11:06] <Zakim> ... colinsullivan, arronei, Lachy, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, silvia, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed,
  546. # [11:06] <Zakim> ... trackbot, RRSAgent
  547. # [11:06] * oedipus that you, steve?
  548. # [11:07] <janina> zakim, who's here?
  549. # [11:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
  550. # [11:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see jorlow, yosuke, mjs, Martijnc, Norm, kohei, plh, gavin_, oedipus, plinss_lyon, kennyluck, anne, fantasai, jun, shepazu, adrianba, sylvaing, homata, taisukef,
  551. # [11:07] <Zakim> ... yuma_1985, artur, kensaku, davidC, wonsuk, seungjae, MikeSmith, Zakim, cyns, paulc, weinig, myakura, mgylling, kliehm, shan, dsinger, janina, MichaelC, freedom, Marco_Ranon,
  552. # [11:07] <Zakim> ... ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, Lachy, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, silvia, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny,
  553. # [11:07] <Zakim> ... sideshow, ed, trackbot
  554. # [11:07] * oedipus there are 2 of us on the phone
  555. # [11:07] <janina> scribe: janina
  556. # [11:07] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@94.172.220.38)
  557. # [11:07] * Parts: jorlow (jorlow@74.125.57.60)
  558. # [11:08] * oedipus hooray!
  559. # [11:08] <oedipus> present+ Steve_Faulkner
  560. # [11:09] * oedipus cyns, rich has been idle on IRC for 17 hours, so i don't think he is yet available
  561. # [11:09] <janina> cyns: Let's look at html - aria mapping bugs
  562. # [11:09] <janina> cyns: will be asking status
  563. # [11:09] <richardschwerdtfe> what is the call in?
  564. # [11:10] <oedipus> zakim, passcode 26631
  565. # [11:10] <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode 26631', oedipus
  566. # [11:10] <janina> zakim, code?
  567. # [11:10] <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), janina
  568. # [11:10] <janina> cyns: bug 10450
  569. # [11:10] * Joins: hidetaka (hidetaka@84.14.50.82)
  570. # [11:11] * oedipus welcome, rich!
  571. # [11:11] <richardschwerdtfe> thank you
  572. # [11:11] * Quits: jun (jun@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jun)
  573. # [11:11] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450
  574. # [11:12] <janina> martin: issue relates correct identification tab 1 of 4, e.g.
  575. # [11:12] <janina> cyns: reason it's on anchor and not on list is backward compatability
  576. # [11:13] <janina> martin: could work even without js
  577. # [11:13] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450#c19 - hixie's last comment on bug 10450
  578. # [11:13] <janina> sf: this bug resolved
  579. # [11:13] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  580. # [11:13] <oedipus> hixie: "The remaining issue in this bug therefore seems to be handled by bug 10919. I'll fix it there and am returning this bug to the FIXED state as per comment 1."
  581. # [11:13] <janina> cyns: 10903
  582. # [11:14] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10903
  583. # [11:14] <janina> cyns controversary?
  584. # [11:14] <janina> cyns: waiting for resolution of issue-129 before making spec changes
  585. # [11:14] <oedipus> steve logged as issue-129 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
  586. # [11:15] <oedipus> hixie: "Since this is the topic of an ongoing working group issue, I'll wait until the chairs have resolved the relevant issue before making any changes here."
  587. # [11:15] * Joins: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82)
  588. # [11:15] <janina> cyns: looking for sense of the room on importance of this introductory text
  589. # [11:15] <janina> rich: why's there an issue with having intro text?
  590. # [11:15] * Quits: yuma_1985 (yuma_1985@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  591. # [11:15] <janina> cyns: agree it should exist, but what's the importance of pushing for it?
  592. # [11:15] * Joins: yuma_1985 (yuma_1985@84.14.50.82)
  593. # [11:15] <oedipus> steve's bug report details: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10903#c0
  594. # [11:16] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@84.14.50.82) (Quit: dsinger)
  595. # [11:16] <oedipus> hixie: "Since this is the topic of an ongoing working group issue, I'll wait until the chairs have resolved the relevant issue before making any changes here."
  596. # [11:16] <janina> sf: next action is ian's ...
  597. # [11:16] <janina> s/ian's/editor's/
  598. # [11:16] <oedipus> bug 10903 is bound to issue-129
  599. # [11:17] <oedipus> issue-129?
  600. # [11:17] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-129
  601. # [11:17] <trackbot> ISSUE-129 -- replace or modify the ARIA section of the HTML5 spec -- raised
  602. # [11:17] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
  603. # [11:17] <janina> zakim, call janina
  604. # [11:17] <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
  605. # [11:17] <janina> cyns: bug 10444
  606. # [11:18] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444
  607. # [11:18] <oedipus> bug 10444 also bound to issue-129 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
  608. # [11:19] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
  609. # [11:19] <oedipus> hixie's comment "rejected / see comment 7 [http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444#c7]
  610. # [11:19] <janina> cyns: current status?
  611. # [11:20] * Joins: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82)
  612. # [11:20] <janina> cyns: we need to escalate this bug?
  613. # [11:20] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@84.14.50.82)
  614. # [11:21] <oedipus> mjs description of bug 10444 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444#c0
  615. # [11:21] <janina> sf: needs chair attention
  616. # [11:22] <janina> sf: perhaps bugs in issue-129 that no longer need action should be removed from issue-129?
  617. # [11:22] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450
  618. # [11:22] <janina> cyns: so to remove 10450, we need consensus that we agree on resolution of 10450
  619. # [11:23] * Joins: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82)
  620. # [11:23] <paulc> See http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-129
  621. # [11:23] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
  622. # [11:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
  623. # [11:23] <oedipus> hixie: "Status: Partially Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I didn't add "presentation", but added the others. If there's a use case for presentation that doesn't involve non-conforming use of these elements, please reopen the bug (or file a new one, if the use case applies to other elements also)."
  624. # [11:24] <janina> paulc: not seeing 10450 on my issue-129 status page
  625. # [11:24] <janina> paulc: go to the table, not the issue itself for current status
  626. # [11:24] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-129
  627. # [11:25] <janina> cyns: need to update
  628. # [11:25] <janina> paulc: issue itself describes the bugs that apply?
  629. # [11:25] <janina> cyns: yes, it should
  630. # [11:25] * Joins: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82)
  631. # [11:26] <janina> paulc: bug marked fixed, which is why it's not in table
  632. # [11:26] <janina> cyns: we agree? seems yes
  633. # [11:26] <oedipus> hixie: "Status: Partially Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I didn't add "presentation", but added the others. If there's a use case for presentation that doesn't involve non-conforming use of these elements, please reopen the bug (or file a new one, if the use case applies to other elements also)."
  634. # [11:27] <janina> cyns: presentation is now allowed everywhere, which is why we now consider 10450 fixed
  635. # [11:27] <janina> cyns: without 10444 spec less usable -- strong view
  636. # [11:27] <oedipus> hixie's comment "rejected / see comment 7 [http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444#c7]
  637. # [11:28] <janina> paulc: next step should be to write a change proposal
  638. # [11:28] <janina> cyns: this is included in the larger change proposal, we need to split it out?
  639. # [11:28] <janina> paulc: window closes in 16 days
  640. # [11:28] <oedipus> issue-129 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
  641. # [11:29] <janina> cyns: who's writing spec text on this?
  642. # [11:29] <janina> sf: text is already there
  643. # [11:29] <janina> sf: we need to see whether we agree
  644. # [11:29] <janina> cyns: let's find out now
  645. # [11:29] <janina> sf: looking for text ...
  646. # [11:30] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450#c6
  647. # [11:31] <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ARIAIntegration
  648. # [11:31] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.59.50) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  649. # [11:32] * oedipus rrsagent, make minutes
  650. # [11:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  651. # [11:32] <janina> cyns: let's look at 10448 while steve looks for 10444 text ...
  652. # [11:32] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10448 Consider broadening the set of allowed roles for command elements
  653. # [11:32] * Joins: jun (jun@84.14.50.82)
  654. # [11:32] <janina> cyns: some elements are commands in menu, and not outside of menu tag
  655. # [11:33] <oedipus> bug 10448 marked as "RESOLVED WONTFIX"
  656. # [11:33] <janina> cyns: goal to allow more specific roles when used in a more advanced way
  657. # [11:33] <janina> cyns: peopls frequently use anchor or button as basis for more advanced control, so need aria roles to make role explicit
  658. # [11:33] <janina> cyns: this is very common in the wild
  659. # [11:34] <Stevef> aria change proposal http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5
  660. # [11:34] <janina> cyns: we discussed command interchangeability -- client os often don't understand distinction either -- aria provides repair
  661. # [11:35] <janina> cyns: editor does not agree with this assessment, our proposal has been rejected
  662. # [11:35] <janina> cyns: do we need another separate proposal?
  663. # [11:35] <janina> paulc: chairs firmly believe in divide and conquer. an individual bug is very helpful
  664. # [11:36] <Stevef> 3.2.6 Use of WAI-ARIA Roles, States and Properties in HTML http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html
  665. # [11:36] <janina> cyns: even though we have proposed this change, we should do so again, because the previous proposal was an omnibus?
  666. # [11:37] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
  667. # [11:38] <janina> paulc: so, give us a change proposal that deals with all the remaining issues in issue-129
  668. # [11:38] <janina> cyns: so, revise our existing change proposal?
  669. # [11:38] <janina> paulc: yes
  670. # [11:38] <janina> cyns: and remove those that are resolved to our satisfaction?
  671. # [11:38] <janina> paulc: yes
  672. # [11:39] <oedipus> the following bugs are associated with ISSUE-129: Bug 10450 -Allow lists to be used as menus or tab sets http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450 Bug 10903 -provide an introduction to wai-aria in the wai aria section of the spec http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10903 Bug 10444 -ARIA section does not list elements that have no default role or role restrictions...
  673. # [11:39] <oedipus> ...http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444 related to Bug 10603 -Clarify what default roles UAs may assign to elements not listed in the ARIA section http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10603 Bug 10448 -Consider broadening the set of allowed roles for command elements http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10448 Bug 10449 -Consider allowing various command-like...
  674. # [11:39] <oedipus> ...ARIA roles for h1-h6 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10449 Bug 10462 -merge ARIA mapping tables and list http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10462 Bug 10481 -Default role of <IMG> should be "img" http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10481 Bug 10493 -"ARIA restricts usage of this role to one per page" is an unclear statement http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug
  675. # [11:39] <oedipus> .cgi?id=10493 Bug 10592 -"h1 to h6 element that does have an hgroup ancestor" not listed in ARIA section http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10592 Bug 10594 -conforming use of various aria attributes not specified http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10594 Bug 8000 - ARIA roles added to the a element should be conforming in HTML5 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=800
  676. # [11:39] <oedipus> 0 Bug 10478 -modify table, tr and td roles
  677. # [11:39] <janina> oedipus, you're listing at least one already resolved and removed -- 10450 ...
  678. # [11:39] * Quits: jun (jun@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jun)
  679. # [11:40] <oedipus> bugs associated with ISSUE 129 Bug 10450, Bug 10903, Bug 10444, Bug 10603, Bug 10448, Bug 10449, Bug 10462, Bug 10481, Bug 10493, Bug 10592, Bug 10594, Bug 8000, Bug 10478
  680. # [11:40] <Stevef> 3.2.6 Use of WAI-ARIA Roles, States and Properties in HTML http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html
  681. # [11:42] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Ping timeout)
  682. # [11:42] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@86.45.225.77)
  683. # [11:42] * Joins: jun (jun@84.14.50.82)
  684. # [11:42] <janina> cyns: are there multiple bugs that deal with the organization of this table? can we combine those?
  685. # [11:42] <janina> sf: yes
  686. # [11:43] <oedipus> bug 10462 merge mapping tables and list: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10462
  687. # [11:43] <janina> cyns: 10444 and 10462 about how to present -- we're proposing them in an alphabetized table
  688. # [11:43] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  689. # [11:43] <janina> cyns: those two highly related -- perhaps to survey?
  690. # [11:44] * oedipus janina, just discovered that if you type "bug number" it will auto-hyperlink the string "bug number" to the actual bug
  691. # [11:44] <janina> cyns: anyone think it better to list things that have no default mapping?
  692. # [11:44] * Joins: Vagner-br (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  693. # [11:44] <janina> rich: it may be helpful to say why some don't have default mappings
  694. # [11:45] <janina> rich: perhaps that would explain the overall approach
  695. # [11:45] <janina> cyns: might that alleviate editor's concerns
  696. # [11:45] <janina> rich: don't know
  697. # [11:45] <janina> sf: neither i
  698. # [11:46] <janina> cyns: rejected over maintanance difficulty
  699. # [11:46] <janina> cyns: think we addressing that
  700. # [11:47] <janina> cyns: these two roles about readability of the spec
  701. # [11:47] <janina> cyns: agree that 10444 without 10462 is a problem, but when taken together there's not that problem
  702. # [11:48] <janina> cyns: i'll take the next step on this
  703. # [11:48] <janina> cyns 10448 ...
  704. # [11:48] <janina> cyns about command
  705. # [11:49] <janina> cyns: status is rejected; makes no sense
  706. # [11:49] <janina> cyns: a diference in uderstanding purpose of aria
  707. # [11:49] <oedipus> Q+ to say that in HTML5 spec @role is referred to as being part of aria, when aria explicitly states that @role defined in Role Attribute, not ARIA
  708. # [11:49] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  709. # [11:49] <janina> cyns: how do we resolve purpose of aria? this is a consistent problem.
  710. # [11:49] <oedipus> aria: "A WAI-ARIA role is set on an element using a role attribute, similar to the role attribute defined in the Role Attribute [ROLE]."
  711. # [11:49] <oedipus> html5: "Authors may use the ARIA role and aria-* attributes on HTML elements, in accordance with the requirements described in the ARIA specifications, except where these conflict with the strong native semantics described below. These exceptions are intended to prevent authors from making assistive technology products report nonsensical states that do not represent the actual state of the...
  712. # [11:50] <oedipus> ...document. [ARIA]"
  713. # [11:50] <oedipus> q?
  714. # [11:50] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  715. # [11:51] <janina> rich: authors will do what authors will do
  716. # [11:51] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
  717. # [11:51] <janina> rich: we need a repair opportunity when they misues native html
  718. # [11:52] <janina> artur: there is also used as intended, but aria increases accessibility
  719. # [11:52] <janina> paulc: that's the kind of technical rationale that need to be presented in rebuttal
  720. # [11:53] <janina> paulc: simply say "we want this changed for the following reason," and give the reason plus the use case.
  721. # [11:53] <janina> cyns: and address those in the change proposal
  722. # [11:53] <janina> paulc: yes
  723. # [11:53] <janina> sf: we've done that
  724. # [11:53] <janina> rich: yes, but was ignored
  725. # [11:54] <janina> paulc: resolution of a bug?
  726. # [11:54] <janina> rich: yes
  727. # [11:54] <oedipus> q-
  728. # [11:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  729. # [11:54] <janina> paulc: so now we're talking about resolution of an issue, not a bug. But, do provide the rationale and use cases, because that helps should it go to survey
  730. # [11:55] <janina> cyns: sounds like to take discussion on bug, artur's example, and add to proposal
  731. # [11:55] <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAonanchor
  732. # [11:55] <janina> cyns: steve?
  733. # [11:56] <janina> sf: would want help with it
  734. # [11:59] <oedipus> @role used on http://www.accessibletwitter.com
  735. # [12:00] <oedipus> what hixie calls "self-styled accessibility experts"?
  736. # [12:00] <janina> paulc: a rationale that appeals to expertise isn't acceptable; nor is tha ttitude that "i don't want to do it" from the editor
  737. # [12:00] <janina> paulc: provide the rationale and use case of why
  738. # [12:00] <oedipus> hixie has dismissed a lot of input by what hecalls "self-styled accessibility experts" even on things that come from the TF
  739. # [12:01] <janina> rich: editor says "show me where it's been implemented"
  740. # [12:01] <janina> paulc: should standards lead or follow was the analog of this question at the plennary
  741. # [12:01] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Ping timeout)
  742. # [12:01] <janina> paulc: it's the chair's job here to find consensus on this question with this issue
  743. # [12:02] <Stevef> Guiding factors for decisions on ARIA Role use: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5#Guiding_factors_for_decisions_on_ARIA_Role_use:
  744. # [12:02] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
  745. # [12:02] * Quits: jun (jun@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jun)
  746. # [12:02] <janina> sf: is this principals approach sufficient, or do we need to go role by role
  747. # [12:03] <janina> paulc: sounds systematic and probably will have someone argue against
  748. # [12:03] <janina> paulc: looks necessary, but can't guarantee it's sufficient
  749. # [12:03] <janina> cyns: a different question -- about effectiveness
  750. # [12:04] <janina> cyns: would individual change proposals for individual bugs be more effective?
  751. # [12:04] <janina> paulc: whatever gets the november date is the best answer
  752. # [12:04] * Joins: jun (jun@84.14.50.82)
  753. # [12:05] <janina> paulc: suggest concentrate on meeting the deadline, and ask this later
  754. # [12:06] <janina> paulc: be clear which text is associated with which bug
  755. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> issue-27?
  756. # [12:06] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-27
  757. # [12:06] <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- @rel value ownership, registry consideration -- open
  758. # [12:06] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27
  759. # [12:07] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Ping timeout)
  760. # [12:07] <janina> cyns: so guiding factor -- particularly on command -- very important because editor isn't understanding why we picked those
  761. # [12:07] <janina> cyns: I'll take this one 10448
  762. # [12:08] * Quits: kensaku (kensaku.ko@84.14.50.82) (Client exited)
  763. # [12:09] <janina> paulc: main reason for writing an omnibus change proposal is that there's overlap -- let's worry about the disentaglement later
  764. # [12:09] * oedipus rrsagent, make minutes
  765. # [12:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  766. # [12:09] <janina> paulc: if proposal says a need for 1, b need for 2 & 3, c needed for 4-6; that's what helps chairs
  767. # [12:09] <janina> cyns bug 10449
  768. # [12:10] <janina> cyns: roles for h1-h6
  769. # [12:10] <janina> rich: we showed how these could be used like buttons ...
  770. # [12:10] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  771. # [12:11] <janina> rich: we've seen this from the wild
  772. # [12:11] * Quits: jun (jun@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jun)
  773. # [12:11] <janina> rich: our argument is that a header can be repurposed through js; and we need the ability to repair to convey intent
  774. # [12:12] <oedipus> IE8 uses a button defined as a header in "friendly" failure methods
  775. # [12:12] <janina> cyns: one side says "authors do this," other side says "they shouldn't."
  776. # [12:12] <oedipus> s/failure methods/failure messages/
  777. # [12:12] <janina> cyns: is this rich's proposal
  778. # [12:12] <janina> rich: yes
  779. # [12:12] * Quits: plinss_lyon (plinss@212.180.75.100) (Ping timeout)
  780. # [12:13] <janina> rich: right now in escalation
  781. # [12:13] <janina> cyns: next step is to update proposal for the decision, needs to be done by 21st
  782. # [12:14] * Quits: homata (homata@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  783. # [12:14] * Quits: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  784. # [12:14] <janina> cyns: we're updating our omnibus change proposal to include only bugs unresolved, and to insure clear rationale and use cases -- by 21st
  785. # [12:14] <artur> example of using <h3/> for (WAI-ARIA) collapsable menus: http://test.cita.illinois.edu/aria/
  786. # [12:14] <oedipus> agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda
  787. # [12:14] <janina> cyns: can you do this part by then, rich?
  788. # [12:14] <janina> rich: yes
  789. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> trackbot, help
  790. # [12:14] <trackbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  791. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
  792. # [12:15] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg2...
  793. # [12:15] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  794. # [12:15] <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
  795. # [12:15] <janina> action: rich to update change proposal re bu 10449
  796. # [12:15] * RRSAgent records action 8
  797. # [12:15] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  798. # [12:15] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  799. # [12:15] <janina> action cyns to update change proposal for bug 10448
  800. # [12:15] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  801. # [12:15] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  802. # [12:16] <oedipus> actoin: cyns to update change proposal for bug 10448
  803. # [12:16] <oedipus> action: cyns to update change proposal for bug 10448
  804. # [12:16] * RRSAgent records action 9
  805. # [12:16] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  806. # [12:16] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  807. # [12:16] <janina> action: steve to update change proposal for bugs 10444 and 10462
  808. # [12:16] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  809. # [12:16] * RRSAgent records action 10
  810. # [12:16] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  811. # [12:16] <janina> cyns: 10481.
  812. # [12:17] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10481
  813. # [12:17] <janina> cyns: we want img to map to aria img -- backwards compatibility rationale
  814. # [12:18] * oedipus MikeSmith, are you trying to change trackbot for #html-wg2 -- you are entering commands into #html-wg
  815. # [12:18] <janina> cyns: have a hard time understanding editor's response
  816. # [12:19] <janina> cyns: who owns?
  817. # [12:19] <janina> action: steve to update change proposal for bug 10481
  818. # [12:19] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  819. # [12:19] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  820. # [12:19] * RRSAgent records action 11
  821. # [12:19] <oedipus> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg
  822. # [12:19] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg...
  823. # [12:21] <janina> cyns: 10493
  824. # [12:21] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493 "ARIA restricts usage of this role to one per page" is an unclear statement
  825. # [12:21] <janina> sf: header, footer ...
  826. # [12:22] <janina> sf: not highest priority
  827. # [12:22] <janina> cyns: about about mismatches between numbers allowed by html vs aria?
  828. # [12:22] <oedipus> editor's response to bug 10493: "Status: Partially Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I just removed the parentheticals altogether, since they were a bit out of place... everything in ARIA has restrictions, it was a bit weird just to call these out specifically."
  829. # [12:23] <janina> cyns: if we let this stand, how bad is that?
  830. # [12:23] <oedipus> steve requested clarification, and hixie responded by removing the section
  831. # [12:23] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493#c3
  832. # [12:23] <janina> cyns: suggest we let this one stand
  833. # [12:24] <janina> sf: yes
  834. # [12:25] <janina> paulc: clearly say this bug is ok
  835. # [12:25] * Quits: artur (BluFudge@217.12.15.52) (Quit: wrapping up to check-out in the hotel and making my way to the airport... Cherio!)
  836. # [12:25] <janina> cyns: also a bugzilla task to accept the resolution
  837. # [12:25] <janina> aulc: yes
  838. # [12:25] <janina> cyns: 10592
  839. # [12:26] <janina> cyns: h1-h6 without ancestor
  840. # [12:26] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493#c3 ""h1 to h6 element that does have an hgroup ancestor" not listed in ARIA section"
  841. # [12:26] <oedipus> CORRECTION: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10592 ""h1 to h6 element that does have an hgroup ancestor" not listed in ARIA section"
  842. # [12:27] * Quits: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  843. # [12:27] * MichaelC requests steve speak closer to microphone
  844. # [12:28] <janina> rich: does h-group take a label?
  845. # [12:28] <janina> cyns: no, name from chn
  846. # [12:29] <janina> action: steve to updage change proposal on bug 10592
  847. # [12:29] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  848. # [12:29] * RRSAgent records action 12
  849. # [12:29] <trackbot> Created ACTION-197 - Updage change proposal on bug 10592 [on Steve Faulkner - due 2010-11-12].
  850. # [12:29] <oedipus> steve asked how the semantics of the following be exposed: <hgroup><h1>heading</h1><h2>subheading</h2></hgroup>
  851. # [12:29] <janina> cyns: 10594
  852. # [12:29] <janina> cyns: hidden, grabed and invalid
  853. # [12:30] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10594 conforming use of various aria attributes not specified
  854. # [12:30] * Quits: davidC (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  855. # [12:31] * Quits: oedipus (chatzilla@70.21.184.131) (Connection reset by peer)
  856. # [12:31] <janina> cyns: do you have proposed spec text?
  857. # [12:31] <janina> sf: yes
  858. # [12:31] <janina> cyns: editor didn't know what to write -- or that long text belongs here
  859. # [12:31] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
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  862. # [12:32] <janina> action: steve to updage change proposal for bug 10594
  863. # [12:32] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  864. # [12:32] * RRSAgent records action 13
  865. # [12:32] <trackbot> Created ACTION-198 - Updage change proposal for bug 10594 [on Steve Faulkner - due 2010-11-12].
  866. # [12:32] <janina> cyns: 10603
  867. # [12:33] <janina> cyns: what default roles may be assigned
  868. # [12:33] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10603
  869. # [12:33] * Quits: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Leaving.)
  870. # [12:33] <janina> cyns: things missing from the table
  871. # [12:33] <janina> cyns: related to 10444 and 10462
  872. # [12:33] * Quits: freedom (freedom@84.14.50.82) (Quit: freedom)
  873. # [12:33] <janina> sf: says related
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  878. # [12:34] <janina> cyns: 10903
  879. # [12:34] <janina> cyns: an intro
  880. # [12:34] * oedipus janina: action dash number colon space text to be added to action number
  881. # [12:34] <janina> cyns: editor is waiting -- so we add to the proposal -- not controversial
  882. # [12:35] <janina> cyns: bug 8000
  883. # [12:35] <janina> cyns: this part of commands -- tied to my action
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  886. # [12:36] * oedipus janina: action dash number colon space text to be added to action
  887. # [12:36] * Parts: silvia (Adium@124.168.8.234)
  888. # [12:36] <janina> cyns: bug 8000 action to be added to action on 10448
  889. # [12:37] <oedipus> there is a hand-off to the ARIA spec when @role is mentioned in section 3.6.2
  890. # [12:38] <richardschwerdtfe> are we over time?
  891. # [12:38] <janina> sf: we need to look at 10478
  892. # [12:38] <oedipus> @role is not included in the list of HTML5 attributes
  893. # [12:38] <janina> cyns: you added this to issue-129?
  894. # [12:38] <janina> sf: yes
  895. # [12:38] <janina> cyns: so, first, do we consider this still open?
  896. # [12:39] * Quits: anne (annevk@84.14.50.82) (Quit: anne)
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  899. # [12:39] <oedipus> hixie on 10478: "Status: Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I gave up trying to understand this."
  900. # [12:39] * Quits: kliehm (kliehm@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  901. # [12:40] <janina> sf: i have a problem with th being turned into a button
  902. # [12:40] <janina> cyns: but it seems similar to turning headings into buttons. are we consistent?
  903. # [12:40] <janina> sf: so can have role on any table element -- is that ok?
  904. # [12:40] <janina> cyns: my preference
  905. # [12:40] <janina> rich: people will simply do it
  906. # [12:41] <janina> cyns: think there are legit scenarios for it
  907. # [12:41] <janina> cyns: also undermines our argument on headings to take that up differently
  908. # [12:41] <janina> cyns: we leave this closed.
  909. # [12:41] <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
  910. # [12:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html janina
  911. # [12:42] <janina> rich: i remember bug date, but not this date
  912. # [12:43] <janina> cyns: steve, are you ok?
  913. # [12:43] <janina> sf: yes
  914. # [12:43] <janina> sf: most is already done
  915. # [12:44] <janina> cyns: i will be stricter with myself and rich than with steve. we should have draft next week
  916. # [12:44] <janina> rich: let's meet early next week
  917. # [12:44] <janina> cyns: i will writ emine off line, and suggest email by friday next
  918. # [12:44] * Quits: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  919. # [12:44] <oedipus> rich, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0136.html
  920. # [12:45] <oedipus> rich, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0125.html
  921. # [12:45] <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
  922. # [12:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html janina
  923. # [12:45] <oedipus> timeline to last call: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
  924. # [12:46] * oedipus break for hour?
  925. # [12:47] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)10:00Z has ended
  926. # [12:47] <Zakim> Attendees were
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  954. # [14:03] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 240 minutes?
  955. # [14:03] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)13:00Z scheduled with code 26635 (CONF5) for 240 minutes until 1700Z
  956. # [14:04] <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
  957. # [14:04] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
  958. # [14:04] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)13:00Z has now started
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  961. # [14:05] <richardschwerdtfe> what is the passcode?
  962. # [14:05] * oedipus gregory rejoining
  963. # [14:05] <oedipus> 26635
  964. # [14:05] <janina> zakim, who's here?
  965. # [14:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
  966. # [14:05] <Zakim> On IRC I see adam, anne, mjs, SGondo, homata, yuma_1985, davidb, hidetaka, myakura, shepazu, aroben, laplink, jun, oedipus, Lachy, Stevef, Martijnc, plh, gavin_, fantasai, wonsuk,
  967. # [14:06] <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, Zakim, mgylling, janina, MichaelC, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1,
  968. # [14:06] <Zakim> ... gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai, drry, hsivonen, jwm
  969. # [14:06] * oedipus i think steve, rich and i are on the phone
  970. # [14:06] <richardschwerdtfe> i am on
  971. # [14:06] <janina> zakim, this is roam_3a
  972. # [14:06] <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not see a conference named 'roam_3a' in progress or scheduled at this time
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  976. # [14:07] <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
  977. # [14:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
  978. # [14:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see adrianba, freedom, dsinger, adam, anne, mjs, SGondo, homata, yuma_1985, davidb, hidetaka, myakura, shepazu, aroben, laplink, jun, oedipus, Lachy, Stevef, Martijnc,
  979. # [14:07] <Zakim> ... plh, gavin_, fantasai, wonsuk, MikeSmith, Zakim, mgylling, janina, MichaelC, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, inimino, webr3,
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  981. # [14:07] <Zakim> ... Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai, drry, hsivonen, jwm
  982. # [14:08] * Joins: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82)
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  984. # [14:08] * Joins: paulc (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  985. # [14:08] <MichaelC> topic: Canvas
  986. # [14:08] <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
  987. # [14:08] * Joins: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82)
  988. # [14:09] <MichaelC> fo: 2 proposals - imagemap, and DOM
  989. # [14:09] <MichaelC> MS supports DOM, implemented in IE9
  990. # [14:09] <MichaelC> anybody else?
  991. # [14:09] <MichaelC> rs: filed a bug with Firefox, but not in yet
  992. # [14:10] <MichaelC> ds: <interrupted>
  993. # [14:10] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  994. # [14:10] <MichaelC> fo: so looks like support centering around that
  995. # [14:10] <dbaron> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
  996. # [14:10] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg2...
  997. # [14:10] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  998. # [14:10] <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
  999. # [14:10] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibilitynonav
  1000. # [14:10] * oedipus dbaron, this is #html-wg not the #html-wg2 channel
  1001. # [14:10] <MichaelC> a second mode for this DOM
  1002. # [14:11] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
  1003. # [14:11] <MichaelC> things sent to the DOM but not rendered
  1004. # [14:11] * Quits: myakura (myakura@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1005. # [14:11] <MichaelC> 2 DOM modes, testing scariness
  1006. # [14:11] * dbaron sorry, we were trying to figure out how to get trackbot to work with both channels at once
  1007. # [14:11] * oedipus ok -- just wanted to make sure
  1008. # [14:11] <MichaelC> leads to questions like with iframe, do you go into that iframe or not?
  1009. # [14:11] * MichaelC trackbot isn't multichannel aware
  1010. # [14:12] <oedipus> ISSUE-74: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/74 Canvas Accessibility
  1011. # [14:12] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-74.
  1012. # [14:12] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  1013. # [14:12] * MichaelC except it should know about this one...
  1014. # [14:12] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-074
  1015. # [14:12] * dbaron thinks #html-wg2 just stole it
  1016. # [14:13] <MichaelC> so need to work out what goes into the DOM
  1017. # [14:13] <MichaelC> can specify what goes in, or what doesn't go in
  1018. # [14:13] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
  1019. # [14:14] <MichaelC> might want to look at tricky situations where a canvas object relates to a UI feature
  1020. # [14:14] <MichaelC> e.g., checkbox in <canvas>, is toggled by AT, should receive a click event
  1021. # [14:14] * Joins: shan (soonbo.han@84.14.50.82)
  1022. # [14:14] <MichaelC> how do we handle event messaging in the shadow DOM?
  1023. # [14:14] <MichaelC> need to discuss, but need more people involved
  1024. # [14:14] <MichaelC> pc: what's path to addressing this?
  1025. # [14:15] <MichaelC> rs: file a bug about what HTML elements are allowed in the shadow DOM
  1026. # [14:15] <MichaelC> pc: what's the process?
  1027. # [14:15] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-074
  1028. # [14:15] * Joins: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82)
  1029. # [14:15] <MichaelC> rs: <scribe couldn't parse>
  1030. # [14:15] <MichaelC> pc, cs: file bugs?
  1031. # [14:16] <MichaelC> fo: need a bug, a change proposal ultimately needed
  1032. # [14:16] <MichaelC> need spec text (more than 3 lines) that describe how to address scenario
  1033. # [14:16] <MichaelC> cs: this is a sub-issue of the canvas issue
  1034. # [14:16] <MichaelC> pc: we've allready called for objections to ISSUE-74 and ISSUE-105
  1035. # [14:16] <MichaelC> rs: result?
  1036. # [14:16] <oedipus> ISSUE-74 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/74 Canvas Accessibility
  1037. # [14:16] <MichaelC> pc: not issued yet
  1038. # [14:17] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-74-and-105-objection-poll/
  1039. # [14:17] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-74-and-105-objection-poll/
  1040. # [14:17] <MichaelC> cs: assuming we accept shadow DOM, <something about options>
  1041. # [14:17] <MichaelC> <something about imagemap or nothing>
  1042. # [14:18] <MichaelC> rs: imagemap nice to have
  1043. # [14:18] <MichaelC> but not needed
  1044. # [14:18] * Joins: seungjae (seungjae@212.180.75.100)
  1045. # [14:18] <MichaelC> cs: assuming we choose DOM over other two <interrupted/>
  1046. # [14:18] <MichaelC> rs: need to pick the options in the straw poll
  1047. # [14:19] <MichaelC> pc: which option before the WG is the "use the shadow DOM"
  1048. # [14:19] * Joins: kliehm (kliehm@84.14.50.82)
  1049. # [14:19] <MichaelC> cs: it's the null change proposal, refine existing text
  1050. # [14:19] <MichaelC> cs: assume this will be the WG decision
  1051. # [14:19] <MichaelC> so question is how to refine that into the existing issues
  1052. # [14:19] <MichaelC> rs: what operates inside the DOM and what functionality from Canvas 2D to support magnification
  1053. # [14:20] <MichaelC> fo, cs: table that
  1054. # [14:20] * Parts: dbaron (dbaron@84.14.50.82) (8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  1055. # [14:20] <MichaelC> cs: is this idea part of what has been surveyed?
  1056. # [14:20] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-74-and-105-objection-poll/results
  1057. # [14:20] <MichaelC> rs: nothing in the survey speaks to defining the limitations of the shadow DOM
  1058. # [14:20] <MichaelC> cs: meaning it would be a post-LC issue
  1059. # [14:21] <oedipus> this was definitely raised as an ISSUE before LC
  1060. # [14:21] <MichaelC> rs: arguably part of ISSUE-74
  1061. # [14:21] <MichaelC> cs: checks with Paul
  1062. # [14:21] <MichaelC> pc: don't know what chair decision would be
  1063. # [14:22] <MichaelC> rs: we should <scribe got distracted by private msg>
  1064. # [14:22] <MichaelC> pc: there are LC bugs we're processing in advance, so don't be too fussed about status of the bug
  1065. # [14:24] <oedipus> tracker, pointer
  1066. # [14:24] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Ping timeout)
  1067. # [14:24] <oedipus> tracbot, pointer
  1068. # [14:24] <oedipus> trackbot, pointer
  1069. # [14:24] <trackbot> Sorry, oedipus, I don't understand 'trackbot, pointer'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  1070. # [14:24] * oedipus grrr...
  1071. # [14:24] <MichaelC> action: frank to file a bug about arriving at spec text that speaks to complexities of how DOM elements behave in the shadowl DOM beneath the canvas
  1072. # [14:24] * RRSAgent records action 14
  1073. # [14:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1074. # [14:24] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  1075. # [14:25] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Bye!)
  1076. # [14:25] <MichaelC> fo: --- canvas with text entry ---
  1077. # [14:25] <MichaelC> options are 1) shouldn't do it
  1078. # [14:25] <MichaelC> 2) describe the multitudinous issues
  1079. # [14:26] * Quits: seungjae (seungjae@212.180.75.100) (Ping timeout)
  1080. # [14:26] <MichaelC> 3) solve some of the problems but not completely
  1081. # [14:26] <MichaelC> think third option doesn't help users nor implementers
  1082. # [14:26] <MichaelC> and second is really hard
  1083. # [14:27] <oedipus> plus 1 to FO option 2 because people are already building RTEs with canvas (skywriter, lively project, etc.)
  1084. # [14:27] <MichaelC> rs: we could say no text entry, but can't deliver without addressing the issues
  1085. # [14:27] <MichaelC> someone will try it
  1086. # [14:27] <MichaelC> fo: who does it besides bespin?
  1087. # [14:27] <MichaelC> ds: people use canvas to be innovative
  1088. # [14:27] <oedipus> bespin is now skywriter -- there is also oracle's lively-project
  1089. # [14:27] * oedipus i'll put in URIs
  1090. # [14:28] <MichaelC> fo: which pushes us into describing the issues, a lot of work
  1091. # [14:28] <MichaelC> ds: can we just leave that to authors
  1092. # [14:28] <MichaelC> give them pointers, tools, apis?
  1093. # [14:28] <oedipus> http://labs.oracle.com/projects/lively/ and
  1094. # [14:28] <oedipus> https://bespin.mozillalabs.com/
  1095. # [14:28] <oedipus> RTEs that use canvas
  1096. # [14:28] * Joins: danielp (soohongp@84.14.50.82)
  1097. # [14:28] <MichaelC> fo: let's say shadow DOM interacting with screen reader and <something>
  1098. # [14:29] <MichaelC> pretty straightforward in basic case
  1099. # [14:29] <oedipus> correction, bespin has been rebranded "skywriter" http://mozillalabs.com/skywriter/
  1100. # [14:29] <MichaelC> with text entry, developer has to handle all kinds of events
  1101. # [14:29] <oedipus> however, https://bespin.mozillalabs.com/docs/ - still linked from skywriter pages
  1102. # [14:29] <MichaelC> ds: or hook into platform things
  1103. # [14:29] <MichaelC> fo: consider Japanese input, that has symbol prediction
  1104. # [14:29] <MichaelC> how would you tie that to canvas element
  1105. # [14:30] <MichaelC> or, consider spell check, form autocomplete,...
  1106. # [14:30] <MichaelC> these aren't even just a11y issues
  1107. # [14:30] <MichaelC> cs: in a standard control you'd have access to platform API in imperative manner
  1108. # [14:30] * Quits: mgylling (mgylling@83.251.132.242) (Quit: mgylling)
  1109. # [14:30] <MichaelC> don't have that in script
  1110. # [14:30] <MichaelC> fo: this is all addressable, but not within current timeline in a good way
  1111. # [14:31] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
  1112. # [14:31] <MichaelC> ds: maybe some of these aren't a11y specific
  1113. # [14:32] <MichaelC> mk: if shadow dom rich enough, can incentivize authors not to use script
  1114. # [14:33] <oedipus> plus 1 to martin
  1115. # [14:33] <MichaelC> fo: there are things you have to send to screen reader that you don't send to screen, e.g., cursor offset
  1116. # [14:34] <MichaelC> rs: there are some things we need to sync with UI anyway, such as spelling
  1117. # [14:34] <MichaelC> because they're part of HTML
  1118. # [14:34] <oedipus> canvas accessibility discussion at PFWG f2f 2010-01-01 (member-confidential) http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-pf-minutes.html#item08
  1119. # [14:35] <MichaelC> cs: that's native to HTML 5?
  1120. # [14:35] <MichaelC> rs: yes
  1121. # [14:35] <MichaelC> cs: it requires spelling and grammar checking in contenteditable?
  1122. # [14:35] <MichaelC> rs: yes
  1123. # [14:35] <MichaelC> fo: what do people think of the work load?
  1124. # [14:36] <MichaelC> rs: contenteditable functioanlity needs to be reflected
  1125. # [14:36] <MichaelC> and magnification (bug exists)
  1126. # [14:37] <MichaelC> cs: how much time to do this work?
  1127. # [14:37] <MichaelC> rs: API isn't the difficult part to spec
  1128. # [14:37] <MichaelC> finding limits is a big part of the problem
  1129. # [14:38] <MichaelC> and finding how to expose things like spelling
  1130. # [14:38] <MichaelC> can get caret info which helps sync
  1131. # [14:38] <MichaelC> fo: what info do you want to get re spelling/
  1132. # [14:38] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250)
  1133. # [14:38] <MichaelC> rs: need existence and location in the subtree
  1134. # [14:38] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility
  1135. # [14:39] <MichaelC> cs: how much time to do this work?
  1136. # [14:39] <oedipus> avoiding redrawing focus ring: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0219.html
  1137. # [14:39] <MichaelC> rs: implementation a challenge
  1138. # [14:39] * Joins: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82)
  1139. # [14:39] <MichaelC> but 3 weeks to do spec
  1140. # [14:39] <MichaelC> maybe longer if need to find out what can be done with DOM subtree
  1141. # [14:40] <MichaelC> fo: <scribe distracted>
  1142. # [14:40] <MichaelC> cs: how long to spec to point your testers are happy?
  1143. # [14:40] <MichaelC> fo: don't think it can be done by last call deadline, that's implementable
  1144. # [14:41] <MichaelC> think we should look at post-LC vehicle to address these concerns
  1145. # [14:41] <MichaelC> also won't have implementers on board in time for LC
  1146. # [14:41] * Joins: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82)
  1147. # [14:41] <MichaelC> steps of getting spec text, getting agreement, etc., we're only at beginning of this process
  1148. # [14:42] <MichaelC> cs: can it be modularlized/
  1149. # [14:42] <MichaelC> q+
  1150. # [14:42] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1151. # [14:42] <MichaelC> rs: canvas 2d by april?
  1152. # [14:42] <MichaelC> pc: all documents on same scheudle
  1153. # [14:42] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/canvas-api/canvas-2d-api.html
  1154. # [14:43] <MichaelC> can find WG position
  1155. # [14:43] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630])
  1156. # [14:43] <MichaelC> in email
  1157. # [14:43] <MichaelC> ack m
  1158. # [14:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1159. # [14:43] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
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  1161. # [14:44] <MichaelC> mc: we could put in "don't do text editing" for LC, and solve the problem during the LC period
  1162. # [14:44] <MichaelC> cs: or html.next
  1163. # [14:44] <eliot> Current canvas 2D spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-2dcontext-20101019/
  1164. # [14:44] <oedipus> bugs currently associated with HTML Issue 74: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7011 and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7404
  1165. # [14:44] <MichaelC> ds: message that you can do it but don't have support from us, on your own
  1166. # [14:44] <MichaelC> rs: will need caret, focus ring, select
  1167. # [14:45] <MichaelC> pc: canvas 2d context is in the set of documents going forward with html at LC
  1168. # [14:46] <MichaelC> ds: don't see how we can lock authors out of this design pattern
  1169. # [14:46] <MichaelC> cs: can write a WCAG failure
  1170. # [14:46] <MichaelC> fo: how would you solve?
  1171. # [14:46] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@77.92.71.172)
  1172. # [14:46] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  1173. # [14:46] <MichaelC> ds: agree with you on difficulty and timeline
  1174. # [14:46] <MichaelC> cs: a WCAG failure is easy to do
  1175. # [14:47] <MichaelC> we could do a sample application to show how to use contenteditable + canvas to get something kinda good
  1176. # [14:47] <MichaelC> mk: concern that contenteditable div not performant enough
  1177. # [14:47] <oedipus> canvas-based rich text editor projects: skywriter (was bespin) http://mozillalabs.com/skywriter/ and lively http://labs.oracle.com/projects/lively/
  1178. # [14:47] <MichaelC> cs: but that's not our primary concern - just giving options
  1179. # [14:47] <MichaelC> (another is "use HTML")
  1180. # [14:47] <MichaelC> this could be a WCAG technique
  1181. # [14:48] <oedipus> authors shouldn't have to turn to WCAG in order to do canvas accessibly
  1182. # [14:48] <MichaelC> mc: are we deciding never to solve this, or to solve it later?
  1183. # [14:48] <MichaelC> and what do we do pre-LC
  1184. # [14:49] <MichaelC> fo: think we're commiting to solving, but after LC
  1185. # [14:49] <MichaelC> not sure what we do pre-LC
  1186. # [14:49] * Quits: yuma_1985 (yuma_1985@84.14.50.82) (Quit: TakIRC)
  1187. # [14:49] <MichaelC> mc: so <interrupted>
  1188. # [14:50] <MichaelC> pc: we could ask in the LC status section what reviewer priority is on this issue
  1189. # [14:50] <MichaelC> can be hard to get WG to agree to this
  1190. # [14:50] <MichaelC> but I can just take over that section
  1191. # [14:51] <MichaelC> fo, cs: +1 (each)
  1192. # [14:51] <MichaelC> fo: that allows us to say "here are the problems we've identified"
  1193. # [14:51] <MichaelC> pc: have done this in situations where we weren't sure of appropriate direction
  1194. # [14:52] <MichaelC> cs: that could help set priority for when / whether to address post-LC
  1195. # [14:52] <MichaelC> pc: having a bug that clearly describes problem gives a hook for that
  1196. # [14:53] <MichaelC> in the status section
  1197. # [14:53] <MichaelC> <group looks for whether there's a bug>
  1198. # [14:54] <MichaelC> action: rich to file a bug about accessible rich text editing with canvas
  1199. # [14:54] * RRSAgent records action 15
  1200. # [14:54] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1201. # [14:54] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  1202. # [14:55] <MichaelC> pc: yesterday question of doing profile(s) of HTML 5 came up
  1203. # [14:56] <MichaelC> an HTML 5 environment with only script and canvas was a compelling idea
  1204. # [14:56] <MichaelC> and that's a use case for this text entry issue
  1205. # [14:57] * Quits: oedipus (chatzilla@70.21.184.131) (Client exited)
  1206. # [14:57] * Joins: oedipus (chatzilla@70.21.184.131)
  1207. # [14:57] <MichaelC> connecting the dots....
  1208. # [14:57] <oedipus> timed track discussion 2010-11-04 http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item10
  1209. # [14:58] <oedipus> limited devices and profiles: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item11
  1210. # [14:58] <MichaelC> q+
  1211. # [14:58] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1212. # [14:58] <MichaelC> rs: <scribe missed, some sort of +1>
  1213. # [14:59] <MichaelC> mk: 1.5 years ago this came up at SXSW
  1214. # [14:59] <oedipus> q?
  1215. # [14:59] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1216. # [14:59] <kliehm> mk: "canvas is like having an APll
  1217. # [15:00] <kliehm> mk: Apple II in the browser"
  1218. # [15:00] <oedipus> shouldn't limit to WCAG -- should be in HTML5 spec
  1219. # [15:00] <kliehm> s/APll//
  1220. # [15:00] * oedipus rich has to leave at the top of the hour
  1221. # [15:01] <oedipus> post LC1 pre LC2
  1222. # [15:01] * Joins: yael (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1223. # [15:02] * MichaelC proposed RESOLUTION: in LC version of spec, have a warning about using canvas for text entry, and create WCAG techniques and failures related to this
  1224. # [15:02] * Quits: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82) (Quit: I am gone now)
  1225. # [15:02] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
  1226. # [15:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
  1227. # [15:02] <oedipus> minus 1 -- don't think should pass off to WCAG entirely -- canvas implementors will be looking at the 2d-canvas api
  1228. # [15:02] * MichaelC proposed RESOLUTION: work on a full solution to the text editing in canvas problem, and get into the spec at some future point
  1229. # [15:03] * MichaelC proposed RESOLUTION: in LC version of spec, have a warning about using canvas for text editing (absent a text field), and create WCAG techniques and failures related to this
  1230. # [15:04] * Quits: homata (homata@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1231. # [15:04] <MichaelC> sf: ask about caret etc.
  1232. # [15:05] <MichaelC> rs: not subject to the proposed resolutions
  1233. # [15:05] <MichaelC> pc: the formal decision hasn't been issued yet
  1234. # [15:05] <MichaelC> cs, rs: <something> didn't make it to the survey
  1235. # [15:05] <MichaelC> s/<something>/caret/
  1236. # [15:05] * Joins: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82)
  1237. # [15:05] * Parts: yael (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1238. # [15:05] <MichaelC> pc: but focus rectangle was surveyed
  1239. # [15:05] <MichaelC> ack me
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  1241. # [15:06] * Joins: taisukef_ (taisukef@84.14.50.82)
  1242. # [15:06] <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: in LC version of spec, have a warning about using canvas for text editing (absent a text field), and create WCAG techniques and failures related to this
  1243. # [15:06] <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: work on a full solution to the text editing in canvas problem, and get into the spec at some future point
  1244. # [15:06] <MichaelC> fo: --- drawFocusRing ---
  1245. # [15:06] <MichaelC> asks about current status
  1246. # [15:06] <MichaelC> rs: we originally included coordinates for the focus ring
  1247. # [15:07] <MichaelC> <something else>
  1248. # [15:07] <MichaelC> cs: will it pick up OS settings?
  1249. # [15:07] <MichaelC> rs: yes
  1250. # [15:07] <MichaelC> a couple threads still open on status
  1251. # [15:08] <MichaelC> cs: does the spec have everything it needs for focus?
  1252. # [15:08] <MichaelC> rs: no, caret and focus ring are confounded
  1253. # [15:08] <MichaelC> doesn't account for blink rate
  1254. # [15:08] <MichaelC> cs: bugs?
  1255. # [15:08] <MichaelC> rs: one bug with a proposal
  1256. # [15:09] <MichaelC> cs: we asked about a bug for caret; didn't ask for focus ring, may need one for that also
  1257. # [15:09] <MichaelC> rs: <looking>
  1258. # [15:09] * Quits: oedipus (chatzilla@70.21.184.131) (Connection reset by peer)
  1259. # [15:09] <MichaelC> no actual defect
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  1261. # [15:10] <MichaelC> action: Rich to file defects for features necessary for focus ring and magnification
  1262. # [15:10] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1263. # [15:10] * RRSAgent records action 16
  1264. # [15:10] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
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  1268. # [15:11] <eliot> Current canvas 2d api spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-2dcontext-20101019/
  1269. # [15:11] <MichaelC> <confusion over different versions of canvas spec>
  1270. # [15:12] <Stevef> Provide accessibility information for driving screen magnifier tracking of focus rectangle and caret selection and to prevent blink rate seizures http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility
  1271. # [15:12] <MichaelC> action: Eliot to indicate that old editors' draft of canvas is out-dated and reference new one
  1272. # [15:12] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1273. # [15:12] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  1274. # [15:12] * RRSAgent records action 17
  1275. # [15:12] * Quits: hidetaka (hidetaka@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1276. # [15:12] <MichaelC> fo: getcursorblinkrate should be tied to text entry, not focus management
  1277. # [15:13] <MichaelC> should include this in the text entry bug
  1278. # [15:13] <MichaelC> rs: along with grammar checking?
  1279. # [15:13] <MichaelC> fo: yes
  1280. # [15:14] <oedipus> note that SteveF said "Provide accessibility information for driving screen magnifier tracking of focus rectangle and caret selection and to prevent blink rate seizures http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility"
  1281. # [15:15] <MichaelC> fo: --- any other issues? ---
  1282. # [15:15] <MichaelC> ds: we haven't scraped bottom of barrel, but won't find all possible issues before LC
  1283. # [15:15] <MichaelC> mk: should we inventory examples of canvas uses to get ideas of issues?
  1284. # [15:16] <MichaelC> fo: IE team doesn't enumerate everything on the web, answer is always "enough to matter"
  1285. # [15:16] <MichaelC> there are three types of controls: <missed>
  1286. # [15:18] <MichaelC> s/<missed>/1) show info such as labels; 2) toggles for something simple, like checkboxes and single-selection lists; 3) text entry, with lots of complex nuances
  1287. # [15:19] <MichaelC> those are the basic building blocks of any UI, even when they add up to something complex
  1288. # [15:20] <MichaelC> mc: not convinced all can be reduced to that, but maybe
  1289. # [15:20] <MichaelC> mk: for user interaction, it can be reduced that far
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  1292. # [15:21] <MichaelC> fo: no matter how swanky / spiffy the control, it still boils down to those types of actions
  1293. # [15:22] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
  1294. # [15:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
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  1299. # [15:27] <oedipus> developer should get info from 2D-canvas-api portion directly, not be pointed to WCAG
  1300. # [15:28] <oedipus> paulc, according to the agenda, the DRM session has been cancelled
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  1302. # [15:29] * oedipus mmmmmm..... fermented yougurt
  1303. # [15:31] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Ping timeout)
  1304. # [15:31] * oedipus like the geeze used to say "they always tell you it will be perfected in 6 months"
  1305. # [15:34] <oedipus> are we officially on break?
  1306. # [15:34] <oedipus> resuming at top of hour?
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  1308. # [15:37] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)13:00Z has ended
  1309. # [15:37] <Zakim> Attendees were
  1310. # [15:37] <oedipus> thanks to all the scribes!
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  1322. # [16:09] <paulc> test
  1323. # [16:09] <paulc> Topic: Applicable specifications
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  1329. # [16:12] <Julian> topic: applicable specs
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  1332. # [16:13] <adrianba> ISSUE-140?
  1333. # [16:13] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-140
  1334. # [16:13] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  1335. # [16:14] <anne> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9178
  1336. # [16:14] <paulc> Bug 9178?
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  1340. # [16:14] <anne> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
  1341. # [16:14] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg2...
  1342. # [16:14] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  1343. # [16:14] <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
  1344. # [16:14] <noahm> ISSUE-140: clarify the applicability of the term "conforming document" in cases where "applicable specifications" had been used to augment or change the base HTML5 specification
  1345. # [16:14] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-140.
  1346. # [16:14] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  1347. # [16:14] <dbaron> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
  1348. # [16:14] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg2...
  1349. # [16:14] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  1350. # [16:14] <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
  1351. # [16:15] <dbaron> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg
  1352. # [16:15] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg...
  1353. # [16:15] <MichaelC> trackbot, int
  1354. # [16:15] <trackbot> Sorry, MichaelC, I don't understand 'trackbot, int'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  1355. # [16:15] <MichaelC> trackbot, init
  1356. # [16:15] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#extensibility
  1357. # [16:15] <anne> ISSUE-140
  1358. # [16:15] <anne> ISSUE-140?
  1359. # [16:15] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-140
  1360. # [16:15] <trackbot> ISSUE-140 -- clarify the applicability of the term "conforming document" in cases where "applicable specifications" had been used to augment or change the base HTML5 specification -- raised
  1361. # [16:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/140
  1362. # [16:15] <hsivonen> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#other-applicable-specifications
  1363. # [16:18] <hsivonen> q+
  1364. # [16:18] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1365. # [16:18] <paulc> Noah: I raised the bug under ISSUE-140.
  1366. # [16:18] <paulc> scribenick: paulc
  1367. # [16:19] <paulc> Noah: My concern is about conformance terminology.
  1368. # [16:19] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1369. # [16:19] <paulc> Noah: Let's say I have an HTML document that does not use any extensions. The HTML5 spec says what is conforming.
  1370. # [16:20] <paulc> Noah: Let's say someone else writes an "applicable spec" that is incompatible since it changes what is required.
  1371. # [16:20] <hsivonen> The "Preset" menu on http://validator.nu/ is relevant
  1372. # [16:20] * Joins: chaals (chaals@84.14.50.82)
  1373. # [16:20] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
  1374. # [16:21] <mjs> q+
  1375. # [16:21] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
  1376. # [16:21] <paulc> Noah: I am asking that if a document that is only conforming if there is an "applicable specification" then I should have to say this when I give you the document.
  1377. # [16:22] <adrianba> q?
  1378. # [16:22] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
  1379. # [16:22] <paulc> ack hsivonen
  1380. # [16:22] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  1381. # [16:22] <dbaron> q+
  1382. # [16:22] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron on the speaker queue
  1383. # [16:23] <noahm> q+ to ask Henri: it's great that the validator does this, but where does the spec requires this
  1384. # [16:23] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron, noahm on the speaker queue
  1385. # [16:23] <paulc> henri: I agree with what Noah says. If you look at validator.new its configuration file controls what applicable specs apply during validation.
  1386. # [16:23] <noahm> Does the spec require what the validator does?
  1387. # [16:23] <dbaron> s/validator.new/validator.nu/
  1388. # [16:23] <paulc> @dbaron: thanks
  1389. # [16:23] <sicking> q+
  1390. # [16:23] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron, noahm, sicking on the speaker queue
  1391. # [16:24] <paulc> henri: Since ARIA is included then that case could be changed.
  1392. # [16:24] <noahm> I'm happy for you to deal explicitly with a handful of edge cases like SVG and Aria as you see fit.
  1393. # [16:24] <noahm> I'm just suggesting that the HTML5 spec should be unambiguous: you can't say "my doc conforms to HTML5" if it actually requires extensions to conform
  1394. # [16:25] <paulc> henri: the html5 does not give the SVG validation rules so you need to tell the validator what SVG to use.
  1395. # [16:26] <shepazu> the SVG WG would be happy to help review any tests that involve SVG
  1396. # [16:26] <paulc> Noah: I want to spec to require what Henri described how the validator.nu work.
  1397. # [16:26] <paulc> q?
  1398. # [16:26] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron, noahm, sicking on the speaker queue
  1399. # [16:26] <hsivonen> q+
  1400. # [16:26] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron, noahm, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1401. # [16:26] <paulc> ack maciej
  1402. # [16:26] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron, noahm, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1403. # [16:26] <paulc> ack mjs
  1404. # [16:26] * Zakim sees dbaron, noahm, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1405. # [16:27] * Joins: gavin__ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
  1406. # [16:27] <paulc> Maciej: I want to mention scope of applicable specification clause.
  1407. # [16:27] <paulc> Maciej: you can add elements to make them conforming but you cannot change existing elements.
  1408. # [16:27] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  1409. # [16:28] * Julian objects to "random junk" in the spec
  1410. # [16:31] <paulc> Maciej: I retract my statement but this is different than it used to be.
  1411. # [16:31] <paulc> Ack dbaron
  1412. # [16:31] * Zakim sees noahm, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1413. # [16:31] <paulc> DBaron: Restating: Noah wants "conforming HTML5 document" and then some other phrase when an "applicable spec" is involved.
  1414. # [16:32] <anne> q?
  1415. # [16:32] * Zakim sees noahm, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1416. # [16:32] <paulc> ack noahm
  1417. # [16:32] <Zakim> noahm, you wanted to ask Henri: it's great that the validator does this, but where does the spec requires this
  1418. # [16:32] * Zakim sees sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1419. # [16:32] <Julian> q+
  1420. # [16:32] * Zakim sees sicking, hsivonen, Julian on the speaker queue
  1421. # [16:32] <paulc> ack sicking
  1422. # [16:32] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Julian on the speaker queue
  1423. # [16:33] <paulc> If it contains ARIA is if "conforming HTML5 document"?
  1424. # [16:33] <paulc> Noah: depends on what the spec says. Just say it clearly in the spec.
  1425. # [16:34] <paulc> Should we move the sentence:
  1426. # [16:34] * Quits: janina (janina@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1427. # [16:34] <paulc> As far as conformance goes, what matters in a particular community is what that community agrees is applicable.
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  1429. # [16:35] * Parts: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@99.39.114.91)
  1430. # [16:35] <paulc> ack hs
  1431. # [16:35] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  1432. # [16:35] * Joins: Bert (bbos@mcclure.w3.org)
  1433. # [16:36] <paulc> Henri: The A.S. clause is trying to say in words what the validator.nu has been doing in practise.
  1434. # [16:36] <noahm> NM: My main priority is that I want the term "conforming HTML5 document" to be defined as referring only to the unextended specification.
  1435. # [16:36] <paulc> q+
  1436. # [16:36] * Zakim sees Julian, paulc on the speaker queue
  1437. # [16:36] <adrianba> +1 to what henri says - it wouldn't hurt to make it explicit in the spec instead of implicit
  1438. # [16:36] <noahm> NM: I am somewhat flexible as to what terminology would be used for documents that conform only to the extended specifications.
  1439. # [16:37] <paulc> Henri: If you invoke the A.S clause then your statement should say something different than if you did not.
  1440. # [16:37] <noahm> As best I can tell, I am in complete agreement with Henri, and I note that I have no strong concern as to how ARIA, MathML or SVG is treated, as long is it's clear one way or the other.
  1441. # [16:38] <paulc> Henri: This agrees with Noah's ask.
  1442. # [16:38] <paulc> henri: Do we need a more formal way of negotiating this.
  1443. # [16:38] <noahm> I don't agree that moving the last sentence of the note to be normative achieves the goal.
  1444. # [16:38] <paulc> ack Julian
  1445. # [16:38] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  1446. # [16:39] <paulc> Julian: The spec needs to be clearer about what a conforming document is ie about SVG, MathML or ARIA are in or out.
  1447. # [16:39] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
  1448. # [16:40] <noahm> I think the right way to do it is adding to the definition of conforming document something like: "the term 'conforming document' applies only to documents that conform to this specification in the absence of additional applicable specification extensions".
  1449. # [16:40] <hsivonen> q+
  1450. # [16:40] * Zakim sees paulc, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1451. # [16:40] <paulc> Julian: We should ahve a term for a document that conforms to HTML5 spec + SVG + Mathml
  1452. # [16:40] <paulc> ack paulc
  1453. # [16:40] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1454. # [16:40] <noahm> I also think the "vendor neutral" term is sort of goofy, but decided not to fight that battle if you all are happy.
  1455. # [16:40] <mjs> q+
  1456. # [16:40] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
  1457. # [16:41] <mjs> q-
  1458. # [16:41] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1459. # [16:41] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1460. # [16:42] <noahm> q+ to talk about media types
  1461. # [16:42] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noahm on the speaker queue
  1462. # [16:43] <paulc> paulc: How do I know what A.S are being used when I receive a HTML5 resource.
  1463. # [16:43] * anne wonders if he should point that app. specs. goes beyond validation
  1464. # [16:43] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Quit: Leaving)
  1465. # [16:43] * noahm right, anne
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  1469. # [16:44] <Julian> q+
  1470. # [16:44] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noahm, Julian on the speaker queue
  1471. # [16:45] * kennyluck RRSAgent, make minutes
  1472. # [16:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kennyluck
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  1475. # [16:47] <paulc> ack hsi
  1476. # [16:47] * Zakim sees noahm, Julian on the speaker queue
  1477. # [16:48] <paulc> henri: the situation is similar for "some version of xml" (search for this)
  1478. # [16:49] <paulc> paulc: this leaves an extension point in the spec
  1479. # [16:50] <paulc> henri: this is the why spec does not give a fixed normative reference to the A.S.
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  1482. # [16:51] <paulc> paulc: this is like have a forward looking normative reference (not dated) in the reference section.
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  1484. # [16:52] <paulc> ack noahm
  1485. # [16:52] <Zakim> noahm, you wanted to talk about media types
  1486. # [16:52] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  1487. # [16:53] <sicking> q+
  1488. # [16:53] * Zakim sees Julian, sicking on the speaker queue
  1489. # [16:54] <hsivonen> q+
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  1493. # [16:56] <paulc> ack julian
  1494. # [16:56] * Zakim sees sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1495. # [16:56] <adrianba> q?
  1496. # [16:56] * Zakim sees sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1497. # [16:56] * Quits: noahm (noah_mende@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1498. # [16:57] <paulc> Julian: The validator case henri mentioned is really important.
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  1500. # [16:58] <paulc> Julian: But others out there use the phrase "conforming HTML5" documents to mean something different and pre-determined.
  1501. # [16:58] <paulc> Julian: We need something in the spec that describes some of the case described by validator.nu
  1502. # [16:58] <paulc> ack sicking
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  1506. # [17:01] * Parts: wonsuk (wslee@84.14.50.82)
  1507. # [17:01] <anne> q+
  1508. # [17:01] * Zakim sees hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
  1509. # [17:02] * Quits: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82) (Quit: #mediaann)
  1510. # [17:03] * Joins: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82)
  1511. # [17:03] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: always accept cookies)
  1512. # [17:04] <Julian> q+
  1513. # [17:04] * Zakim sees hsivonen, anne, Julian on the speaker queue
  1514. # [17:04] <anne> the additional bit we add is that conformance depends on who you ask
  1515. # [17:04] * Quits: freedom (freedom@84.14.50.82) (Quit: freedom)
  1516. # [17:04] <Julian> q-
  1517. # [17:04] * Zakim sees hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
  1518. # [17:04] <anne> some will accept microdata as app. spec., some won't
  1519. # [17:04] <paulc> ack hs
  1520. # [17:04] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
  1521. # [17:05] <sicking> My proposed new text:
  1522. # [17:05] <sicking> When vendor-neutral extensions to this specification are needed, either this specification can be updated accordingly, or an extension specification can be written that overrides the requirements in this specification. When a community applying this specification to their activities explicitly agrees that they will recognize the requirements of such an extension specification, it becomes an...
  1523. # [17:05] <sicking> ...applicable specification for the purposes of conformance requirements in this specification. As far as conformance goes, what matters in a particular community is what that community explicitly agrees is applicable.
  1524. # [17:05] <sicking> (green) Note: Someone could write a specification that defines any arbitrary byte stream as conforming, and then claim that their random white noise is conforming. However, that does not mean that their random junk actually is conforming for everyone's purposes: if someone else has not explicitly agreed that that specification does not apply, then the byte stream is not conforming to them,...
  1525. # [17:05] <sicking> ...and is just random white noise.
  1526. # [17:05] <paulc> q+
  1527. # [17:05] * Zakim sees anne, paulc on the speaker queue
  1528. # [17:05] <anne> you should write a CP
  1529. # [17:05] <Julian> s/vendor-neutral//
  1530. # [17:06] <noah> From RFC 2616L
  1531. # [17:06] <noah> When an entity-body is included with a message, the data type of that
  1532. # [17:06] <noah> body is determined via the header fields Content-Type and Content-
  1533. # [17:06] <noah> Encoding. These define a two-layer, ordered encoding model:
  1534. # [17:06] <noah> entity-body := Content-Encoding( Content-Type( data ) )
  1535. # [17:06] <noah> Content-Type specifies the media type of the underlying data.
  1536. # [17:06] <noah> Content-Encoding may be used to indicate any additional content
  1537. # [17:06] <noah> codings applied to the data, usually for the purpose of data
  1538. # [17:06] <noah> compression, that are a property of the requested resource. There is
  1539. # [17:06] <noah> no default encoding.
  1540. # [17:06] <noah> This says nothing about processing.
  1541. # [17:06] <noah> So, I respectfully disagree with Henri's reading of the definition of Content-type.
  1542. # [17:06] <noah> The word processing doesn't occur.
  1543. # [17:06] * Julian sorry, shouldn't have uses s//
  1544. # [17:06] <noah> q?
  1545. # [17:06] * Zakim sees anne, paulc on the speaker queue
  1546. # [17:06] <noah> q+ to look at RFC 2616
  1547. # [17:06] * Zakim sees anne, paulc, noah on the speaker queue
  1548. # [17:06] <anne> s/extensions/vendor-neutral extensions/
  1549. # [17:07] <anne> ftfy
  1550. # [17:07] <anne> noah, it does not quite align with the vision you can send HTML as text/plain to display it as raw text though
  1551. # [17:07] <anne> noah, cause what that is saying is that it is no longer HTML, or am I missing something?
  1552. # [17:08] <Julian> (I believe we should stay away from the term "vendor-neutral"; it's not helpful here)
  1553. # [17:08] <anne> (it is, because vendor-specific extensions are to be done differently)
  1554. # [17:08] <noah> Content-type is NOT about code paths. It is just a statement about the interpretation that the Server intends to be applied to the bits.
  1555. # [17:08] <anne> interpretation is a code path no?
  1556. # [17:08] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Ping timeout)
  1557. # [17:08] <noah> I strongly urge that you ground this discussion in RFC 2616, not in other assertions of what Content-type is.
  1558. # [17:08] <anne> text/plain -> go here, text/html -> go there
  1559. # [17:08] <noah> q?
  1560. # [17:08] * Zakim sees anne, paulc, noah on the speaker queue
  1561. # [17:09] <anne> q-
  1562. # [17:09] * Zakim sees paulc, noah on the speaker queue
  1563. # [17:09] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250)
  1564. # [17:09] <oedipus> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt
  1565. # [17:09] <noah> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.17
  1566. # [17:11] <adrianba> q?
  1567. # [17:11] * Zakim sees paulc, noah on the speaker queue
  1568. # [17:13] <hsivonen> q+
  1569. # [17:13] * Zakim sees paulc, noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1570. # [17:15] <paulc> ack paulc
  1571. # [17:15] * Zakim sees noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1572. # [17:17] * Quits: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1573. # [17:19] <paulc> topic: <small>
  1574. # [17:19] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Ping timeout)
  1575. # [17:19] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250)
  1576. # [17:19] <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
  1577. # [17:20] <dbaron> Topic: <u>, <small>, etc.
  1578. # [17:20] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@84.14.50.82)
  1579. # [17:21] <dbaron> hsivonen: There's a wide range of how semantic presentational formats can be. A PNG gives you a bitmap; a PDF gives an exact bitmap with a bit more abstraction around resolution.
  1580. # [17:21] <dbaron> hsivonen: Then there's HTML, and DocBook that has a lot more that doesn't describe presentation but instead describes the role of stuff in the document.
  1581. # [17:21] <dbaron> hsivonen: And there's TEI (?) that tries to describe roles even more precisely in terms of semantics.
  1582. # [17:21] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1583. # [17:21] <noahm> Julian (and others): if you're interested in the proper registration of the Content-type, then in addition to RFC 2616 and pertinent IANA stuff, you might want to read the TAG's Finding "The Self-Describing Web". http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments.html
  1584. # [17:22] <dbaron> hsivonen: When HTML started, there were some elements for marking up stuff inside a paragraph, e.g., to be italic or underlined, and this seemed to be closer to the presentational end of the spectrum than to the semantic end of the spectrum.
  1585. # [17:22] * Julian prefers to read httpbis Part 3 instead of 2616
  1586. # [17:22] <dbaron> hsivonen: There was a belief that being more semantic was better because it allows repurposing the content in different ways.
  1587. # [17:22] <dbaron> hsivonen: The assumption was that more semantic was better, and presentational was worse.
  1588. # [17:23] <dbaron> hsivonen: Here I am making an inference from what I see in old HTML drafts; I wasn't there.
  1589. # [17:23] <dbaron> hsivonen: First there existed <i>, and then since it was seen as presentational and presentational was worse than semantic, a bunch of other elements were created for different use cases, e.g., <em>, <var>, <cite>.
  1590. # [17:24] <dbaron> hsivonen: In practice, as implemented in browsers, and even as implemented for accessibility purposes (at least as far as Raman said on the list sometime), these are for all purposes in practice synonyms for italics.
  1591. # [17:24] * Joins: r12a (ishida@128.30.52.28)
  1592. # [17:24] <dbaron> hsivonen: There isn't much software that makes good use of these semantics beyond the thing that sets this thing apart from its environment in terms of style.
  1593. # [17:24] * Quits: noahm (noah_mende@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1594. # [17:25] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1595. # [17:25] <dbaron> hsivonen: The concept that presentational is worse than semantic has been advocated over the past decade, a lot.
  1596. # [17:25] <dbaron> hsivonen: It's hard to take the position that, ok, we didn't mean that, and presentational is now ok.
  1597. # [17:25] <MichaelC> q+
  1598. # [17:25] * Zakim sees noah, hsivonen, MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1599. # [17:25] <MichaelC> q- n
  1600. # [17:25] * Zakim sees hsivonen, MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1601. # [17:25] <MichaelC> ack h
  1602. # [17:25] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1603. # [17:25] <dbaron> hsivonen: But we see that these elements that are called presentational within a paragraph are still being used, so we can't say they'd be non-conforming, which would be silly from a practical point of view.
  1604. # [17:26] <dbaron> hsivonen: The approach HTML5 adapts is that some of these old presentational elements are given semantic fig leaves that give us a way to pretend they are semantic without changing in any way the way software handles them.
  1605. # [17:26] <MichaelC> q+ to say that semantic elements, while presented a certain way in mainstream browsers, still have different meanings that are used in transformations, custom styling, AT, etc.
  1606. # [17:26] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1607. # [17:26] <dbaron> hsivonen: It's a way of saving face that allows us to keep them conforming so nobody is inconvenienced but we keep the semantic better than presentational doctrine.
  1608. # [17:26] <dbaron> hsivonen: The <i> element has been made conforming in HTML5 by giving it a semantic fig leaf, but the <u> element has not, and is nonconforming.
  1609. # [17:27] <oedipus> they are "italicized" by a screen reader in response to the markup -- a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics -- if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as...
  1610. # [17:27] <dbaron> hsivonen: They are similar in nature: both used for applying formatting inside a paragraph in the way that normal people think about formatting.
  1611. # [17:27] <oedipus> ...italics as simply italics -- there are semantics behind cite, var, em
  1612. # [17:27] <dbaron> hsivonen: ...
  1613. # [17:27] <oedipus> hsivonen, re accessibility and italics please see my IRC comments above
  1614. # [17:27] <dbaron> hsivonen: If we have <i> but don't have <u>, that's kind of arbitrary. kennyluck filed a bug saying that in chinese you underline certain things. That bug was closed saying that the semantic is already covered by this other stuff, so we don't need the <u> element.
  1615. # [17:28] <dbaron> hsivonen: However, the <u> element exists already, and does this thing that is easy for authors to think about, instead of having to express "I want to express a proper noun" and then say it's underlined.
  1616. # [17:29] <dbaron> hsivonen: You can style the <i> element in CSS to make it underlined, but it's not reasonable to tell a Chinese author to, instead of using the <u> that works they must use an <i> and restyle it.
  1617. # [17:29] <MichaelC> q+ to say I agree many people author according to visual style with implied semantics, but that shouldn't stop us from providing and encouraging the semantic layer
  1618. # [17:29] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1619. # [17:29] <dbaron> hsivonen: Flipping it around for a European author would feel unreasonable (and saying to use <u> for italics).
  1620. # [17:29] <dbaron> hsivonen: It seems it doesn't help the most people to say that these old presentational inline elements are invalid when they are interoperably implemented, and the casual user thinks in terms of wanting this stuff to be italic, bold, underlined, etc.
  1621. # [17:30] * Julian notes that if we want to discuss we need to stop Henri
  1622. # [17:30] <oedipus> q+ a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics--if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as italics as simply italics--there are semantics behind cite, var, em
  1623. # [17:30] * Zakim oedipus, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  1624. # [17:30] <dbaron> hsivonen: There's a counter-argument: if you're translating from Chinese to English or vice-versa, then you need to change the element as part of the translation process, and it would be semantically proper to not have to change the elements when you change the text.
  1625. # [17:30] <oedipus> q+ to say a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics--if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as italics as simply italics--there are semantics behind cite, var, em
  1626. # [17:30] * Zakim sees MichaelC, oedipus on the speaker queue
  1627. # [17:30] <dbaron> hsivonen: But if you have ruby in Japanese and you translate to English, you need to change the ruby.
  1628. # [17:30] <dbaron> hsivonen: So this is my argument that these things should be valid. <small> exists and is interoperably implemented.
  1629. # [17:31] <dbaron> hsivonen: When we have these inline elements, we can do accessibility and non-CSS processing on the content; if we have spans and CSS then we need CSS computed style to do the same processing.
  1630. # [17:31] <dbaron> hsivonen: I'm not arguing for adding any new of these inline elements, but since they exist, have use cases, are easy to understand, and already work, we should say it's ok to use them and we don't need to pretend they don't exist.
  1631. # [17:32] <anne> q?
  1632. # [17:32] * Zakim sees MichaelC, oedipus on the speaker queue
  1633. # [17:32] <MichaelC> ack me
  1634. # [17:32] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say that semantic elements, while presented a certain way in mainstream browsers, still have different meanings that are used in transformations, custom
  1635. # [17:32] <Zakim> ... styling, AT, etc. and to say I agree many people author according to visual style with implied semantics, but that shouldn't stop us from providing and encouraging the semantic
  1636. # [17:32] <Zakim> ... layer
  1637. # [17:32] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  1638. # [17:32] <dbaron> MichaelC: I agree with some (> 50%) of what you said.
  1639. # [17:32] <dbaron> MichaelC: 70-ish
  1640. # [17:32] <dbaron> MichaelC: A couple points that didn't sit well with me:
  1641. # [17:32] * Joins: gfreed (geoff_free@98.110.182.242)
  1642. # [17:33] <dbaron> MichaelC: (1) You talk about how all of these semantic elements are presented the same way; there are some that are handled differently by some software.
  1643. # [17:33] * Joins: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43)
  1644. # [17:33] <dbaron> hsivonen: Which software?
  1645. # [17:33] <dbaron> MichaelC: I could take an action to provide list later.
  1646. # [17:33] * anne wants to know too
  1647. # [17:33] <dbaron> MichaelC: There are bigger use cases for semantic elements than I thought you acknowledge.
  1648. # [17:33] <hsivonen> q+
  1649. # [17:33] * Zakim sees oedipus, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1650. # [17:34] <dbaron> MichaelC: I agree that people author according to visual style. I want to find a way to get authors who author visually to end up with semantic content.
  1651. # [17:34] <dbaron> MichaelC: But I think we need to end up with the semantic content available and encourage them to end up with it.
  1652. # [17:34] * Parts: gfreed (geoff_free@98.110.182.242)
  1653. # [17:34] <dbaron> MichaelC: Those were just a couple addition points I wanted to give.
  1654. # [17:35] <dbaron> cynthia: I agree the inconsistency of <i> and <u>; I'd want consistency. My preference would to deprecate them in favor of more semantic elements or <span> where there are no semantics.
  1655. # [17:35] * oedipus i'll put comments into IRC as i'm not there
  1656. # [17:35] <oedipus> q?
  1657. # [17:35] * Zakim sees oedipus, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1658. # [17:35] <dbaron> hsivonen: Isn't span worse for accessibility? Doesn't that then require figuring out more?
  1659. # [17:35] <dbaron> cynthia: I see <i> and <span> as equivalent.
  1660. # [17:35] <dbaron> cynthia: The <i> element says it's italic but not why; the AT can tell you it's italic.
  1661. # [17:35] <oedipus> just because something is rendered as italics visually, does not mean that it should be identified as italics by a screen reader or other AT, but should be triggers for voice characteristics changes so 1 can tell something emphasized from something cited
  1662. # [17:35] <dbaron> anne: The AT can tell you it's italic==different.
  1663. # [17:36] <oedipus> q?
  1664. # [17:36] * Zakim sees oedipus, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1665. # [17:36] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Ping timeout)
  1666. # [17:36] <dbaron> maciej: Editing tools can (1) add <span> and style (2) insert <i> (3) insert <em>; <i> seems the least bad of these three.
  1667. # [17:36] <dbaron> cynthia: I agree having these inconsistent is strange.
  1668. # [17:36] <dbaron> hsivonen: I care less about <small> than <u>.
  1669. # [17:36] <r12a> q+
  1670. # [17:36] * Zakim sees oedipus, hsivonen, r12a on the speaker queue
  1671. # [17:37] <dbaron> cynthia: The semantic issue: I don't think <em> is much better than <i>; I think the foreign language case may be useful to know that it's italic because it's French or because it's a proper name.
  1672. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-phrase-block-list/#phrase
  1673. # [17:37] * Julian has an anecdote about a ST:TNG episode where the Borg's name "Hugh" was translated into "Du" in German
  1674. # [17:37] <dbaron> hsivonen: The foreign-language semantic is in the lang attribute.
  1675. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> -> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-phrase-block-list/#phrase Opera MAMA report on Phrase elements
  1676. # [17:37] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.135) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  1677. # [17:38] * MichaelC kinda appropriate to the story perhaps...
  1678. # [17:38] <dbaron> hsivonen: Going back to what maciej said: Dreamweaver... says in WAI guidelines that things are more accessible if "italic" command is bound to <em> and "bold" bound to <strong>; this is now implemented in Dreamweaver, Wordpress, so now you can't infer semantics from <em> or <strong> because the author just made the "make this italic" gesture.
  1679. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> the <u> element is used as often as <em> in existing content
  1680. # [17:38] <dbaron> hsivonen: You can no longer infer a difference from <i> and <em> for accessibility from random Web content.
  1681. # [17:39] * MichaelC (because he was humanized and personalized)
  1682. # [17:39] <dbaron> hsivonen: ... because all these content-generating tools have been generating <em> for this UI gesture.
  1683. # [17:39] <oedipus> hsivonen, yes you can -- if you set one voice characteristic for <i> and another for <em> there IS a difference
  1684. # [17:39] <fantasai> Zakim, q+
  1685. # [17:39] <Zakim> I see oedipus, hsivonen, r12a, fantasai on the speaker queue
  1686. # [17:39] <dbaron> cynthia: I don't think <i> is a good solution to providing a solution for why it's italic.
  1687. # [17:39] <dbaron> cynthia: I'd like to see the UI ask you why it's italic.
  1688. # [17:40] * kennyluck +1 for hsivonen's point for accessibility
  1689. # [17:40] <dbaron> maciej: I think a prompt after the "italic" command is a non-starter for usability.
  1690. # [17:40] <dbaron> cynthia: That doesn't mean the right solution is to replace <em> with <i>.
  1691. # [17:40] <oedipus> minus 1000 for hsivonen's point on a11y
  1692. # [17:40] <oedipus> it is easier to un-italicize content styled with CSS than it is to undo a hard-coded <u>
  1693. # [17:40] <oedipus> make that <i>
  1694. # [17:40] <dbaron> hsivonen: I'm not suggesting that. I'm not saying that people shouldn't mark up foreign languages with the lang attribute. I'm just saying the <u>, <i>, and probably <small> should be conforming; people who want to add more semantics should still be able to do that.
  1695. # [17:41] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.135)
  1696. # [17:41] <dbaron> hsivonen: Instead of us prescribing the one way to do that, we should allow the other.
  1697. # [17:41] <dbaron> cynthia: I'd tend to agree with you for <i> and <u>; I think <small> not used much in the wild.
  1698. # [17:41] <dbaron> MikeSmith: Take a look at the data I put in IRC.
  1699. # [17:41] <anne> oedipus, if it is easy to set a voice you can just set the same voice as for normal content so I'm not sure your -1000 applies
  1700. # [17:41] <dbaron> MikeSmith: <small> used more than <sup>, <abbr>, ..., combined.
  1701. # [17:41] <dbaron> [repeating of data in link]
  1702. # [17:41] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250)
  1703. # [17:42] <dbaron> cynthia: As far as outcome, I think we're not far apart, but I think we largely agree on what to do.
  1704. # [17:42] <dbaron> cynthia: I put the bug in but didn't escalate it.
  1705. # [17:42] <oedipus> anne, hsivonen, kennyluck, just because something is rendered as italics visually, does not mean that it should be identified as italics by a screen reader or other AT, but should be triggers for voice characteristics changes so 1 can tell something emphasized from something cited
  1706. # [17:42] <dbaron> MichaelC: I think the use cases you're asking for are, I think, more important than you think.
  1707. # [17:43] <dbaron> MichaelC: I think we could treat ... as WCAG as conformance errors / ???, but I don't think that will be universally accepted in a11y community.
  1708. # [17:43] <mjs> oedipus: would you like to type your comments into IRC?
  1709. # [17:43] <r12a> q?
  1710. # [17:43] * Zakim sees oedipus, hsivonen, r12a, fantasai on the speaker queue
  1711. # [17:43] <dbaron> hsivonen: I don't notice gregory citing any particular software products.
  1712. # [17:43] <mjs> ack oedipus
  1713. # [17:43] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics--if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything
  1714. # [17:43] <dbaron> MichaelC: He uses JAWS.
  1715. # [17:43] <Zakim> ... rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as
  1716. # [17:43] <Zakim> ... italics as simply italics--there are semantics behind cite, var, em
  1717. # [17:43] <dbaron> hsivonen: Does it render them differently by default?
  1718. # [17:43] * Zakim sees hsivonen, r12a, fantasai on the speaker queue
  1719. # [17:43] <oedipus> and NVDA and Orca
  1720. # [17:44] <dbaron> MichaelC: Not sure default is that important.
  1721. # [17:44] <dbaron> cynthia: Highly configurable.
  1722. # [17:44] <oedipus> by default, everything is vanilla
  1723. # [17:44] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.135) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  1724. # [17:44] <oedipus> the user chooses what voice characteristics to change
  1725. # [17:44] <dbaron> [mjs reads comments from oedipus above]
  1726. # [17:44] * oedipus thanks mjs
  1727. # [17:45] <oedipus> out-of-the-box everything is vanilla -- the user has to choose an overlay or tweak the settings herself
  1728. # [17:45] <mjs> oedipus, let us know when you are done please so I can stop reading
  1729. # [17:45] <dbaron> cynthia: Point of clarification: Do users typically choose an overlay, and do the common overlays include different voices for the different semantics?
  1730. # [17:45] <oedipus> for example, JAWS has "internet rent a crowd" which assigns different voices and voice characteristics to what JAWS can pick up from the DOM
  1731. # [17:46] <hsivonen> oedipus, so if <em> and <i> are different for you, how do you know whether the user had an authoring tool that bound <em> to the "italicize" command?
  1732. # [17:46] <oedipus> overlays include different voices for different semantics -- it is up to the user -- some users like multiple voices, others prefer one voice with pitch changes or an earcon (to indicate heading level, for exammple)
  1733. # [17:46] <cyns> q+
  1734. # [17:46] * Zakim sees hsivonen, r12a, fantasai, cyns on the speaker queue
  1735. # [17:46] <dbaron> fantasai: I don't know about assitive technology, but I know book titles are rendered differently from emphasis in Chinese, so for someone who's writing in Chinese, it wouldn't make them to use <i> or <u> for these use cases. If they wanted to they could use the semantic elements and insert punctuation with generated content, or insert the punctuation themselves directly. But they are sometimes styled differently.
  1736. # [17:47] <dbaron> hsivonen: I wasn't suggesting taking <cite> away from authors. But as much as we say it's valid for Chinese authors to use puntuation directly in content, it's valid for authors to use the <u> element.
  1737. # [17:47] <dbaron> [mjs reads responses from oedipus]
  1738. # [17:47] <oedipus> hsivonen, if i have <em> set to trigger a voice characteristics change, it won't do anything for <i> -- UNLESS i set a global "everything that is in italics no matter why should be expressed as italics" setting (such things exist)
  1739. # [17:48] <Julian> q+
  1740. # [17:48] * Zakim sees hsivonen, r12a, fantasai, cyns, Julian on the speaker queue
  1741. # [17:48] <mjs> thanks, oedipus, moving on with the queue now
  1742. # [17:48] <mjs> ack hsivonen
  1743. # [17:48] * Zakim sees r12a, fantasai, cyns, Julian on the speaker queue
  1744. # [17:48] <mjs> q+
  1745. # [17:48] * Zakim sees r12a, fantasai, cyns, Julian, mjs on the speaker queue
  1746. # [17:48] * oedipus thanks mjs for letting me make my point
  1747. # [17:49] <dbaron> hsivonen: I can see the point that Gregory can configure the AT, but logically there isn't any quality signal in the difference between <i> and <em> when some tools bind the italic-command to <em>, so being able to style them differently in your user-stylesheet-equivalent mechanism doesn't tell you much.
  1748. # [17:49] * fantasai thinks we should file bugs on those software and update whatever guidelines recommend such a broken practice
  1749. # [17:49] <mjs> ack r12a
  1750. # [17:49] * Zakim sees fantasai, cyns, Julian, mjs on the speaker queue
  1751. # [17:49] <dbaron> hsivonen: Doesn't tell you anything about author's intent beyond that they pressed Cmd+I in Dreamweaver or another application.
  1752. # [17:49] <oedipus> hsivonen, i have different voice characteristics settings for <u> than anything that appears in a string encased in &#34; ... &#34;
  1753. # [17:49] <dbaron> r12a: Two comments:
  1754. # [17:49] <hsivonen> q+
  1755. # [17:49] * Zakim sees fantasai, cyns, Julian, mjs, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1756. # [17:50] <kennyluck> q+
  1757. # [17:50] * Zakim sees fantasai, cyns, Julian, mjs, hsivonen, kennyluck on the speaker queue
  1758. # [17:50] <oedipus> s/settings for <u>/settings for <q>
  1759. # [17:50] <dbaron> r12a: First is parenthetic: in Dreamweaver I think you have to set an option to make it use <em> instead of <i>. What follows on from that is that I actually chose to do that, and I might later choose not to do that, and I actually do use <em> to mean emphasis and I'm careful about how I write my code.
  1760. # [17:50] <dbaron> r12a: In the wide world you might not be able to rely on authors to do the right thing all the time.
  1761. # [17:50] <oedipus> hsivonen, so if i encounter something using a quote character it is spoken differently than if it were encased in a quote tag
  1762. # [17:51] <dbaron> hsivonen: But the reader doesn't know if the document came from you. But it's useful from you for your CSS purposes. I think it's good for you to hedge your own authoring practice against your own future styling changes. I think CSS is now popular enough that we don't need to make these elements nonconforming to market CSS.
  1763. # [17:51] <dbaron> hsivonen: It doesn't follow that we should say to those authors who don't want to in advance prepare themselves against their future styling changes is nonconforming.
  1764. # [17:51] <dbaron> r12a: I agree; just saying some people will do it right and some won't.
  1765. # [17:52] <dbaron> r12a: (2) The main thing I wanted to say is that, I think, the main question is whether we deprecate <small> and <u>.
  1766. # [17:52] <dbaron> hsivonen: Right now different status for different elements.
  1767. # [17:52] <anne> <a>!
  1768. # [17:52] <dbaron> r12a: There's i/em and b/strong pairs; what's the semantic equivalent of strong?
  1769. # [17:53] <mjs> ack fantasai
  1770. # [17:53] * Zakim sees cyns, Julian, mjs, hsivonen, kennyluck on the speaker queue
  1771. # [17:53] <dbaron> hsivonen: <ins> for American lawyer case; nothing for Chinese proper noun case.
  1772. # [17:53] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  1773. # [17:53] <anne> s/of strong/of u/
  1774. # [17:53] <dbaron> fantasai: My understanding of the HTML spec is that <i> no longer means italics; it means this bit of text is set apart from the surrounding text in a presentationally-distinguished way. It could be by italics or by something else.
  1775. # [17:54] <dbaron> fantasai: I don't see how that definition is any different from what's being proposed for <u>: same definition but different default style.
  1776. # [17:54] <dbaron> maciej: Traditionally underlines and italics are used for default things.
  1777. # [17:54] <oedipus> hsivonen, <em> and <i> are set to produce different voice characteristics because i set them to do so -- either way, i get the message that this string of text is set apart from the other for a specific reason
  1778. # [17:54] <dbaron> s/default/different/
  1779. # [17:54] <dbaron> hsivonen: You have three ways to set text apart from surrounding text (and they also make things different from each other).
  1780. # [17:54] * Quits: jun (jun@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jun)
  1781. # [17:54] * Joins: noah (noah_mende@93.158.28.136)
  1782. # [17:55] <dbaron> hsivonen: But in practice people think in terms of italic, bold, and underline. I sidestepped what the semantics should be; I think we should allow this.
  1783. # [17:55] <dbaron> kennyluck: I raised this bug. I discussed this with Chinese friend; think <b> might be a solution.
  1784. # [17:55] <hsivonen> http://www.helsinki.fi/~rkosken/kirjallisuus/pukuhistoria.html page created in Dreamweaver and edited in another version of Dreamweaver after upgrading
  1785. # [17:55] <dbaron> kennyluck: I'm not saying I have a strong opinion but I want to know which element I should use to style ???, or should I just use a <span>?
  1786. # [17:56] <mjs> ack cyns
  1787. # [17:56] * Zakim sees Julian, mjs, hsivonen, kennyluck on the speaker queue
  1788. # [17:56] <kennyluck> s/???/proper noun/
  1789. # [17:56] <fantasai> kennyluck, read the definitions of <b> and <i> in the HTML5 spec
  1790. # [17:56] <dbaron> cynthia: If the reason for keeping these is ???, that seems like a valid reason to me. Inconsistency also seems bad.
  1791. # [17:56] <fantasai> kennyluck, they mean sligtly different things
  1792. # [17:56] <mjs> ack Julian
  1793. # [17:56] * Zakim sees mjs, hsivonen, kennyluck on the speaker queue
  1794. # [17:56] <dbaron> hsivonen: One reason <u> element is out is that hyperlinks are underlined so Hixie thinks <u> is bad.
  1795. # [17:56] * kennyluck fantasai, <b> also says "The b element represents a span of text to be stylistically offset from the normal prose without conveying any extra importance"
  1796. # [17:57] * kennyluck fantasai, this fits the use of "proper noun" as well
  1797. # [17:57] <dbaron> Julian: I think this WG has spent countless man-years discussing whether something should be conforming or not. I think it's pointless to make things nonconforming that user agents will have to implement anyway. If we can just make a few noncontroversial things conforming and get closer to finishing.
  1798. # [17:57] <oedipus> kennyluck, <b> is about style - not conveying importance, as your quote shows -- presentation should be separate from content
  1799. # [17:58] <dbaron> cynthia: Can I withdraw the bug after someone else escalated it?
  1800. # [17:58] <dbaron> maciej: Anyone can escalate, so it's escalated, but there will be a call for escalated.
  1801. # [17:58] * kennyluck I suppose <i> is not conveying importance as well.
  1802. # [17:58] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Ping timeout)
  1803. # [17:58] <dbaron> maciej: The bug on <small> was escalated.
  1804. # [17:59] <dbaron> anne: Allowing people not in the group to escalate things but not letting them write a change proposal seems like a bug in the process.
  1805. # [17:59] <dbaron> maciej: We allow people not in the group to escalate since it's the way to appeal the editor's decision to the WG. If nobody in the WG cares enough to draft a change proposal then it'll get dropped.
  1806. # [18:00] <dbaron> anne: Can we instead require someone in the WG to agree before it gets escalated?
  1807. # [18:00] <mjs> ack mjs
  1808. # [18:00] * Zakim sees hsivonen, kennyluck on the speaker queue
  1809. # [18:00] <dbaron> cynthia: The only overhead is that it starts the clock for change proposals.
  1810. # [18:00] * Julian tic tac
  1811. # [18:01] * Julian ^ refers to the fact it's 6pm
  1812. # [18:01] <oedipus> kennyluck "Authors are encouraged to consider whether other elements might be more applicable than the i element, for instance the em element for marking up stress emphasis, or the dfn element to mark up the defining instance of a term."
  1813. # [18:01] <dbaron> maciej: One useful framework for thinking about this is that there are two models of authoring for creating rich text to publish as HTML. One model is that you're really thinking of it as HTML / Web Content, and you're thinking about markup, etc. The other is casual, user-generated content (email, Word), where the mental model is hitting the bold or italic button.
  1814. # [18:01] <MichaelC> q+ to say it's useful for this opportunity to discuss what we separately mean by "semantics" etc.; but then we can move away from lots of group times on fiddly things
  1815. # [18:01] * Zakim sees hsivonen, kennyluck, MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1816. # [18:01] <dbaron> maciej: We should support the semantics, but we also need to support the casual user-generated content, and it's unreasonable to ask authors to do too much in order to put some content up on the Web.
  1817. # [18:02] <dbaron> maciej: This idea that everything has to be semantic has been a disservice to this sort of users; they end up using lots of spans with CSS, or inappropriate semantics.
  1818. # [18:02] <dbaron> maciej: This is sort of like punctuation; we don't have a sentence tag, we let people type a period.
  1819. # [18:03] <dbaron> maciej: I stronly agree with having the phrasing elements. If we have to invent a semantic fig leaf, that's ok, but I'd prefer not to.
  1820. # [18:03] <Julian> q+
  1821. # [18:03] * Zakim sees hsivonen, kennyluck, MichaelC, Julian on the speaker queue
  1822. # [18:03] * Quits: soonbo (soonbo.han@84.14.50.82) (Quit: soonbo)
  1823. # [18:03] <dbaron> cynthia: For some of those scenarios there are tools that can assist people in being more semantic, such as clickable styles. I'm fine with those being at a tool level. Mostly I filed the bug because it seemed like there were inconsistencies.
  1824. # [18:03] <oedipus> but we should have a L (line) element so when snippets of <code> are displayed, the semantic integrity of a line of code (or a poem) is retained, no matter the manner of rendering (no more code in PRE with multiple <br>)
  1825. # [18:03] <dbaron> cynthia: Michael, do you feel strongly about keeping this stuff?
  1826. # [18:04] <mjs> ack hsivonen
  1827. # [18:04] * Zakim sees kennyluck, MichaelC, Julian on the speaker queue
  1828. # [18:04] <dbaron> MichaelC: I feel strongly about not wasting a whole lot of time on little issues like this. I think it's been useful to share our ideas on semantics.
  1829. # [18:04] <MichaelC> ack me
  1830. # [18:04] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say it's useful for this opportunity to discuss what we separately mean by "semantics" etc.; but then we can move away from lots of group times on fiddly
  1831. # [18:04] <Zakim> ... things
  1832. # [18:04] * Zakim sees kennyluck, Julian on the speaker queue
  1833. # [18:04] <dbaron> hsivonen: I'd like to give some background about the page I linked to. This is a page my mom wrote in Dreamweaver; it lists a bunch of books for her students to read.
  1834. # [18:04] <mjs> repasting referenced URL: http://www.helsinki.fi/~rkosken/kirjallisuus/pukuhistoria.html
  1835. # [18:04] <oedipus> <code><l>sample code line one</l><l>sample code line two</l></code>
  1836. # [18:05] <dbaron> hsivonen: The concept being marked up is clearly the concept the <cite> element would provide. But the page instead has <i> elements and <em> elements. This is explained by the version of Dreamweaver used to create it originally using the <i> element and a newer version of Dreamweaver using the <em> element in response to the same command.
  1837. # [18:05] <cyns> q+
  1838. # [18:05] * Zakim sees kennyluck, Julian, cyns on the speaker queue
  1839. # [18:05] <dbaron> hsivonen: The page isn't even internally consistent. The user has know way of knowing this result from the WYSIWYG part of Dreamweaver.
  1840. # [18:06] <mjs> ack kennyluck
  1841. # [18:06] * Zakim sees Julian, cyns on the speaker queue
  1842. # [18:06] <oedipus> the tool (dreamweaver) should have done a universal search-and-replace (interactive, preferably) which would have changed the <i> to <em> when <em> became the tool's default
  1843. # [18:06] <dbaron> hsivonen: I think it's hopeless to expect authors to do better; changing what Cmd+I generates doesn't add usefulness to this.
  1844. # [18:06] <dbaron> kennyluck: I found the interpretation of <i> as a semantic element hard to understand. The table says the <i> element is for alternative voice, but the text says...
  1845. # [18:06] * MichaelC we're gonna be the very last group to wrap up this week...
  1846. # [18:07] <dbaron> kennyluck: I don't think technical terms fit into this category; do you alternate your voice when you read a ??? name.
  1847. # [18:07] <dbaron> hsivonen: The reason it's complicated is that it tries to provide a semantic fig leaf to justify keeping <i>.
  1848. # [18:07] * MichaelC new catch-phrase: "semantic fig leaf"
  1849. # [18:07] * MichaelC ;)
  1850. # [18:07] <fantasai> anne: For all the cases where a more specific element is not applicable
  1851. # [18:07] <Julian> q!
  1852. # [18:07] <fantasai> sicking: Technically you could use the citation, but ...
  1853. # [18:08] <fantasai> anne: There is a should requirement that you use the most appropriate element, which would mean you violate that should requirement.
  1854. # [18:08] <mjs> q?
  1855. # [18:08] * Zakim sees Julian, cyns on the speaker queue
  1856. # [18:08] <kennyluck> s/???/ship/
  1857. # [18:08] <r12a> q+
  1858. # [18:08] * Zakim sees Julian, cyns, r12a on the speaker queue
  1859. # [18:08] <fantasai> anne: You could argue that violating that should requirement is OK when you use WYSIWYG editor
  1860. # [18:08] <mjs> ack Julian
  1861. # [18:08] * Zakim sees cyns, r12a on the speaker queue
  1862. # [18:08] * anne cut the cue with success o_O
  1863. # [18:08] <fantasai> Julian: I forgot to say and add to what I said before, that in addition to making all those elements that might be unconforming conforming
  1864. # [18:09] <oedipus> kennyluck, putting a ship's name in italics is a relic of printing conventions
  1865. # [18:09] <fantasai> Julian: The spec explains why using semantic elements is better, instead of using conformance hammer, I think that would be much better
  1866. # [18:09] <hsivonen> +1 to what Julian said
  1867. # [18:09] <mjs> ack cyns
  1868. # [18:09] * Zakim sees r12a on the speaker queue
  1869. # [18:09] <fantasai> mjs: Last call for queuing
  1870. # [18:09] <fantasai> cyns: A tool could be designed to handle Henri's mom's use case, to help the user create a properly marked up bibliography
  1871. # [18:10] <fantasai> cyns: Not all tools will do that, but a tool can.
  1872. # [18:10] * oedipus anne, i've never been able to figure out the emoticon/ascii art meaning of o_O
  1873. # [18:10] <fantasai> cyns: So it's not a spec problem but a tool problem.
  1874. # [18:10] <fantasai> cyns: The semantic fig leaf seems somewhat tortured
  1875. # [18:10] <fantasai> sicking: Do AT take action on <i> or <u>?
  1876. # [18:10] <fantasai> Janina: sure
  1877. # [18:10] <fantasai> Janina: That's an option
  1878. # [18:10] * anne oedipus, some variant of surprised
  1879. # [18:10] <oedipus> the tool (dreamweaver) should have done a universal search-and-replace (interactive, preferably) which would have changed the <i> to <em> when <em> became the tool's default while offering the user the choice to use other more appropriate tags (such as <cite> for instance)
  1880. # [18:11] * anne oedipus, not entirely sure what the details of it are
  1881. # [18:11] <dbaron> sicking: Other than for proofreading, do people configure screenreaders that it reads in a different voice?
  1882. # [18:11] <mjs> ack r12a
  1883. # [18:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1884. # [18:11] * oedipus thanks -- it's been bugging me
  1885. # [18:11] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
  1886. # [18:11] <dbaron> Janina: I don't think so.
  1887. # [18:11] * anne oedipus, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=o_O has more :)
  1888. # [18:11] * oedipus have to add it to my TTS dictionary o_O = surprise
  1889. # [18:11] * fantasai uses <i> according to HTML5's current definition....
  1890. # [18:11] <dbaron> r12a: I think different types of user are critical to this discussion; I don't think you can expect ordinary user writing blog post to semantically tag their stuff, so I think it's useful to have <i> and <u>.
  1891. # [18:11] * anne oedipus, it says confused / weirded out / stunned
  1892. # [18:12] <dbaron> r12a: There are perhaps other users writing large Web sites going to be localized, and we could expect them to know about semantic markup and how to do things better.
  1893. # [18:12] <r12a> i think the distinct types of user is critical to this discussion - i doubt many users would know how to semantically tag their blog post text using elements or class names, but people designing large sites that need to be localized may do so, and for those we can provide guidance, eg. http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-b-and-i-tags
  1894. # [18:12] <dbaron> r12a: I think keeping the fig leaves in place can be useful; I think guidelines like the one just pasted could be useful. I don't think we should do anything.
  1895. # [18:12] * oedipus thanks -- the only reason i picked up your :) is because i have that and several other common emoticons set to expand the dictionary entry but on windows machines, in My Computer i hear "drive C smile"
  1896. # [18:12] <dbaron> cynthia: Except add back <u>?
  1897. # [18:12] <dbaron> r12a: Possibly.
  1898. # [18:12] <anne> oedipus, haha
  1899. # [18:13] <dbaron> maciej: Out of actionable things, it seems like most people in the room in favor of adding back <u>. For adding back <u> we have a bug that has been reopened. Adding more info or maybe escalating might be right step.
  1900. # [18:13] <hsivonen> q+
  1901. # [18:13] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1902. # [18:13] <dbaron> Julian: Argument for removing semantic fig leaves.
  1903. # [18:13] <dbaron> maciej: Someone would have to file a bug to remove semantic fig leaves.
  1904. # [18:13] <mjs> ack hsivonen
  1905. # [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1906. # [18:13] <cyns> +1 julian
  1907. # [18:14] <dbaron> hsivonen: As a validator developer, I care more about telling people to do busywork that isn't beneficial, so I care most about the machine-checkable conformance requirements (does the element exist in the language).
  1908. # [18:14] <dbaron> hsivonen: I'd be ok with not having semantic fig leaves and saying that these things are in the language and they do X.
  1909. # [18:14] <oedipus> rip off the semantic fig leaves!
  1910. # [18:15] <dbaron> hsivonen: I think it's semi-OK to have the fig leaves since they don't lead to bad consequences for validator users. But they do lead to ratholing on mailing lists.
  1911. # [18:15] <dbaron> maciej: I care more about the mechanical requirements.
  1912. # [18:15] <dbaron> Julian: But people care about them.
  1913. # [18:15] <dbaron> ?: That's how we ended up here.
  1914. # [18:15] <dbaron> r12a: If people want to demarcate the content and don't want <em>. What do they use?
  1915. # [18:15] <oedipus> if they feel strongly about it, they can use <strong>
  1916. # [18:16] <dbaron> fantasai: <span> doesn't say that the element should be distinguished to the user. <i> says the reader should be able to distinguish the text from the surrounding contents. I think it makes sense to encourage people to use <i> where that's appropriate rather than <span> + CSS.
  1917. # [18:16] <dbaron> cynthia: One thing that didn't get into minutes: I think current spec text is quite confusing: what <i> is supposed to mean.
  1918. # [18:16] <dbaron> cynthia: It seems like simpler and more declarative "<i> does this" text would be better.
  1919. # [18:17] <dbaron> Janina: I think in an English class many years ago we were taught that if you wanted to emphasize something you use italics and if you really want to emphasize it you bold it.
  1920. # [18:17] <dbaron> anne: But you also put a bunch of other things in italics.
  1921. # [18:17] <fantasai> cyns, but <i> /doesn't/ "do this" (put things in italics) in renderings that dont' support it
  1922. # [18:17] <oedipus> cyns, agree that the <i> and <b> parts need to be more harmonic
  1923. # [18:17] <dbaron> Janina: to set them apart...
  1924. # [18:17] <dbaron> anne: Why not let them use <i>?
  1925. # [18:17] <fantasai> cyns, such as voice or braille or TTY interfaces
  1926. # [18:17] <dbaron> Janina: I have no problem with them using <i>; I think we're making too much of this.
  1927. # [18:17] <dbaron> [multiple conversations]
  1928. # [18:18] <oedipus> the only reason italics and bold were used for emphasis is that there isn't any means other than underlining or changing fonts or using italics or bold in print, that shouldn't limit/lead our work on semantic MLs
  1929. # [18:18] <dbaron> maciej: Time to adjourn; people are welcome to continue discussion informally.
  1930. # [18:18] <dbaron> Meeting adjourned.
  1931. # [18:18] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
  1932. # [18:19] * oedipus thanks everyone for accommodating remote participants
  1933. # [18:19] * Quits: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82) (Connection reset by peer)
  1934. # [18:19] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28) (Quit: kennyluck)
  1935. # [18:19] * Joins: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82)
  1936. # [18:20] * Quits: anne (annevk@84.14.50.82) (Quit: anne)
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  1939. # [18:22] <seungjae> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1940. # [18:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html seungjae
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  1947. # [18:28] * oedipus great timing doug, we just adjourned!
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  1961. # [19:01] <ormaaj> heh, in some contexts we work hard to explicitly bind (especially relational) semantics to elements a la RDFa, and in a few exceptional cases give tags implicit semantic meaning (and implicit presentational qualities).
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The end :)