/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2010-11-05 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Nov 05 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [08:36] * oedipus mornin' michael
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# [08:39] * oedipus janina, markus is trying to attend the EPUB session -- needs someone to piggy-back on to call in on skype
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# [08:40] * janina Gregory, is Markus on this channel? html-wg?
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# [08:41] * oedipus no, he's in #html-wg2 waiting for EPUB people to get a skype connection
# [08:41] * oedipus did you need to talk to him?
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# [08:42] * oedipus janina, markus has entered the chat roomm
# [08:42] * janina Markus, Gregory; Michael Cooper is going to the other meeting and will try to Skype Markus in.
# [08:42] * oedipus thank you!!!
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# [08:44] <krisk> Agenda: General Accessibility (part2)
# [08:44] <paulc> rrsagent, make minutes public
# [08:44] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', paulc. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [08:45] <oedipus> zakim, code?
# [08:45] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I don't know what conference this is
# [08:46] * janina Gregory, We'll get zakim up momentarily
# [08:46] * oedipus ok, just checking
# [08:46] <paulc> rrsagent, create the minutes
# [08:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
# [08:46] <paulc> Topic: General Accessibility (part 2)
# [08:47] <paulc> scribenick: krisk
# [08:47] * oedipus paulc, note that rrsagent is logging to yesterday's minutes (2010/11/04
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# [08:47] <paulc> We decided to have one long minutes.
# [08:47] * oedipus fine with me, just thought you should know
# [08:47] <paulc> Thanks.
# [08:48] <paulc> We are still getting setup from a phone call to #html-wg
# [08:48] * oedipus will "stay tuned"
# [08:48] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 120 minutes?
# [08:48] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)07:45Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 120 minutes until 0945Z
# [08:48] <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
# [08:48] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [08:48] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)07:45Z has now started
# [08:48] * Joins: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82)
# [08:49] <eliot> Url for change proposals: http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
# [08:49] * oedipus on the phone
# [08:49] <janina> zakim, who's here?
# [08:49] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
# [08:49] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@84.14.50.82)
# [08:49] <Zakim> On IRC I see eliot, adrianba, Zakim, cyns, paulc, krisk, weinig, myakura, jaeyeollim, mgylling, kliehm, SGondo, shan, dsinger, mjs, janina, MichaelC, kensaku, oedipus, gavin__,
# [08:49] * oedipus thanks for connectivity
# [08:49] <Zakim> ... freedom, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, Lachy, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, silvia, Martijnc, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin,
# [08:49] <krisk> We will start where we left off at issue 31
# [08:49] <Zakim> ... hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai, drry, hsivonen, jwm
# [08:49] <paulc> issue-31?
# [08:49] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-31
# [08:49] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
# [08:49] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
# [08:49] <eliot> issue-31?
# [08:49] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-31
# [08:49] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
# [08:49] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
# [08:49] <oedipus> present+ Gregory_Rosmaita
# [08:49] * MichaelC note I'm setting up the calls in blocks just for scheduled sessions, we'll need a new code to use later in the day
# [08:50] * oedipus i'm here
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# [08:50] * MichaelC ping me if help needed, otherwise will pay attention to other channel
# [08:50] * oedipus thanks MC
# [08:50] * janina How do we get zakim, to call?
# [08:50] * oedipus zakim is already connected -- i'm on the line
# [08:50] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [08:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [08:51] <oedipus> conf code is 26631
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# [08:51] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [08:51] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
# [08:51] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Rhone_3a
# [08:51] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [08:51] <adrianba> zakim, call rhone_3a
# [08:51] <Zakim> ok, adrianba; the call is being made
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# [08:52] <krisk> shelly: we are looking a the change propose for issue 30 - last 2 items
# [08:53] <oedipus> s/shelly:/cynthia:/
# [08:53] * oedipus krisk, she's cynthia shelly (cyns)
# [08:53] <krisk> cyns: next part is to update the definition of the img tag
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# [08:55] <oedipus> alt is not fallback content because it is primary content for those who cannot process images or have image loading turned off
# [08:55] <krisk> cyns: the goal of these updates is to update the concept of fallback
# [08:55] <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510#Details
# [08:55] <krisk> janina: do people object to this?
# [08:55] <oedipus> q+ to say that alt is not fallback content because it is primary content for those who cannot process images or have image loading turned off
# [08:55] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [08:55] <kliehm> s/for issue 30/for issue 31/
# [08:56] <krisk> janina: an image is an image, they are not the same
# [08:56] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
# [08:56] <oedipus> q?
# [08:56] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
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# [08:56] <kliehm> Cyns prefers http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510#With_Suggested_Definition_of_the_Image_Element:
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# [08:58] <davidC> present+ David_Corvoysier
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# [08:59] <krisk> cyns: option #1 is do nothing
# [08:59] <krisk> cyns: optins #2 is 'with suggest definition of the image element'
# [08:59] <krisk> s/optins/option/
# [08:59] <cyns> An img element represents an image.
# [08:59] <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, and the value of the alt attribute is the img element's fallback content.
# [08:59] <cyns> option 1: Do Nothing. Current spec text
# [09:00] <cyns> Option 2:
# [09:00] <cyns> The <img> element represents content that can be rendered visually (as an image) and textually. The src attribute provides visual content in the form of an image and the alt attribute provides textual content. The content in the src and alt attributes must convey equivalent meaning.
# [09:00] <cyns> Option 3:
# [09:00] <cyns> An img element represents an image.
# [09:00] <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, and the value of the alt attribute is text content that is rendered when the image is not displayed by a User Agent.
# [09:00] <oedipus> ack oe
# [09:00] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say that alt is not fallback content because it is primary content for those who cannot process images or have image loading turned off
# [09:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:01] <oedipus> GJR
# [09:01] <oedipus> gregory
# [09:01] <krisk> gjr: i prefer option #2
# [09:01] <krisk> cyns: can you (gjr) can you live with option #3?
# [09:02] <oedipus> would prefer wording that says that alt text is equivalent primary content
# [09:02] <krisk> janina: I would prefer option #2
# [09:02] <janina> equivalent text semantec?
# [09:02] <krisk> gjr: I could live with option #3 with a change
# [09:03] <krisk> paulc: is not the primary question is alt text the primary content?
# [09:03] <oedipus> yes
# [09:03] <eliot> s/ primary content/primary equivalent content
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# [09:03] <krisk> cyns: the issue is fallback
# [09:04] <kliehm> s/is alt text the primary content/is alt text the primary equivalent content/
# [09:04] <krisk> janina: can we solve this w/o primary and fallback?
# [09:04] <oedipus> PROPOSED MODIFIED #3: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, while the value of the alt attribute is to provide equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is turned off
# [09:04] <oedipus> PROPOSED MODIFIED #3: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is turned off
# [09:04] * Quits: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [09:05] <dsinger> "or for those to whom images are not displayed"?
# [09:05] <krisk> gfr see the second PROPOSED MODIFIED #3:
# [09:05] <cyns> when are not displayed
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# [09:05] <cyns> when images are unavailable
# [09:06] <krisk> janina: i like the PROPOSED MODIFIED #3:
# [09:06] <oedipus> GJR takes dsinger's suggestion as a friendly ammendment
# [09:06] <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
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# [09:06] <krisk> cyns: do we want the first sentence?
# [09:07] <cyns> An img element represents an image.
# [09:07] <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is turned off
# [09:07] <oedipus> plus 1 to cyns
# [09:07] <krisk> janina: let we like this as a group?
# [09:08] <krisk> paulc: what I am hearing - we have 3 intial proposals
# [09:08] <cyns> the image given by the src attibute is the embedded contont; the value of the alt attributge provides equivalen content when images are unavailable
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# [09:08] <krisk> paulc: now we are comming up with 2 new proposals
# [09:08] <krisk> Option #1 is 'the image given by the src attibute is the embedded contont; the value of the alt attributge provides equivalen content when images are unavailable'
# [09:09] <krisk> cyns: removes the 'for whole'
# [09:10] <krisk> gjr: asks for minor change
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# [09:10] <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content when images are not displayed
# [09:10] <oedipus> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled
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# [09:10] <krisk> cyns: note that we will still keep the first sentence
# [09:10] <oedipus> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled
# [09:11] <krisk> Option 2: is change nothing
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# [09:11] <krisk> cyns: do we agree to take #1
# [09:11] <oedipus> slight amendment: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled
# [09:12] <krisk> so new Option #1 is 'The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled'
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# [09:13] * oedipus remember the words of the geeze -- tersify, tersify, tersify
# [09:13] <krisk> cyns: either is fine
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# [09:14] <krisk> cyns: we need someone to write the change proposal
# [09:14] <krisk> cyns: can you do the change proposal?
# [09:14] <oedipus> trackbot, status?
# [09:14] * trackbot knows about the following 29 users: Lachlan, Matthew, Larry, Michael(tm), Doug, Gregory, Philippe, Everett, Julian, Laura, Shawn, Cynthia, Henri, Maciej, James, Adrian, Frank, Richard, Ben, Joshue, Kris, Manu, Sam, Michael, Ian, Paul, Janina, David, Steve
# [09:14] * oedipus i am gregory
# [09:15] <krisk> action: gregory to draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element
# [09:15] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [09:15] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [09:15] <trackbot> Created ACTION-194 - Draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-11-12].
# [09:15] * oedipus thanks
# [09:16] <krisk> janina: Ok - lets move on to item #80
# [09:16] <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
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# [09:16] <krisk> paulc: by definition this action items are due in a week
# [09:16] <krisk> paulc: so it should be on the agenda for the next meeting
# [09:16] <oedipus> issue-80?
# [09:16] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-80
# [09:16] <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
# [09:16] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
# [09:17] <krisk> cyns: reading http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80 to the group
# [09:17] * oedipus whoever joijned via zakim, please enter your name using the "present+ Your_Name" syntax
# [09:17] <Marco_Ranon> Present+ Marco_Ranon
# [09:18] * oedipus thanks marco and good morning!
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# [09:18] <Marco_Ranon> hi Gregory
# [09:18] <janina> q?
# [09:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:18] <oedipus> "2 courses of action could remedy this: 1. require that browsers display the title attribute content on an image when the image is not available or in a device indpendent manner. 2. remove the the text "The title attribute is present and has a non-empty value." from http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-0.html"
# [09:19] <janina> q?
# [09:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:19] <cyns> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203
# [09:19] <oedipus> related bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7362
# [09:19] <krisk> janina: gjr do you want to speak to this?
# [09:19] <krisk> cyns: I think the action would be to either A) close issue #80
# [09:20] <krisk> the second action would be to B) add title to the change proposal
# [09:21] <krisk> cyns: does anyone object to these two items?
# [09:21] <oedipus> GJR: title is supplemental information, alt is equivalent information (or an attempt at equivalency)
# [09:21] <krisk> janina: I am concerned is title a reasonable alt information
# [09:21] <krisk> paulc: two issues
# [09:21] <oedipus> q+ to say title is for supplemental information, alt is equivalent information (or an attempt at equivalency)
# [09:21] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [09:21] <krisk> paulc: #1 how often do people use title
# [09:22] <oedipus> q?
# [09:22] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [09:22] <krisk> paulc: #2 when people do - is the title enough?
# [09:22] <oedipus> q?
# [09:22] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [09:22] <oedipus> ack oe
# [09:22] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say title is for supplemental information, alt is equivalent information (or an attempt at equivalency)
# [09:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:22] <kliehm> q+
# [09:22] * Zakim sees kliehm on the speaker queue
# [09:23] <krisk> dsinger: it seems that this is a really a UA not a conformance requirement
# [09:23] <Marco_Ranon> +1 to GRJ, but fall back support is not consistent across AT
# [09:24] <oedipus> good point, marco
# [09:24] <oedipus> ack kl
# [09:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:24] <krisk> gjr: most screen readers have this type of fallback object
# [09:24] <artur> q+
# [09:24] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
# [09:24] <janina> q?
# [09:24] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
# [09:24] <kliehm> ack ar
# [09:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:25] <oedipus> s/fallback object/fallback cascade model (when encounter image use alt, if no alt, labelledby, if no labelledby title, if no title filename/
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# [09:25] <krisk> cyns: with fallback you can end up with duplicate information being presented, which is a poor experience
# [09:25] <janina> q?
# [09:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:26] <artur> q-
# [09:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:26] <oedipus> note: many screen readers offer discrete control over images and images-used-as-links so that one could grab hyperlink text over @alt if that is what they user desires
# [09:27] <kliehm> scribenick: kliehm
# [09:27] * oedipus cyns, by that criterion, i'd never be able to scribe!
# [09:27] * Joins: hidetaka (hidetaka@84.14.50.82)
# [09:27] <kliehm> scribe: Martin_Kliehm
# [09:29] <kliehm> cyns: There are two ways AT gets accessibility information: from the DOM and from the browsers. Currently title is map to the accessibility API. If title is not considered a suitable equivalent we would need to remove it from the accessibility API.
# [09:30] * Quits: krisk (540e3252@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
# [09:30] <kliehm> janina: we wouldn't want title as a conforming alternative for image content.
# [09:30] <oedipus> plus 1 to Janina - don't want "title" used as equivalent or fallback text, but supplementary meta-data about the object
# [09:31] <oedipus> s/text, but supplementary/but for supplementary/
# [09:31] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
# [09:31] * oedipus rrsagent, make minutes
# [09:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
# [09:31] <kliehm> s/title is map/title is mapped/
# [09:32] * janina Janina waves to Doug
# [09:32] <cyns> The change proposal we resolved to draft yesterday to address teh conformance part of issue 31, which was to include the broadest possible set of text equivalents, will not include @title
# [09:32] <cyns> That change proposal will also address issue 80.
# [09:32] <kliehm> s/teh conformance part/the conformance part/
# [09:33] * Joins: jun (jun@84.14.50.82)
# [09:33] <kliehm> janina, cyns: disagreement?
# [09:33] <cyns> If that change proposal is accepted, it implies a change to the HTML to Accessibility API mappings document such that @title would never map to accessible name
# [09:34] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@69.162.163.148)
# [09:34] <kliehm> janina: remaining items 123, 184
# [09:34] <kliehm> s/123/122/
# [09:34] <oedipus> issue-123?
# [09:34] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-123
# [09:34] <trackbot> ISSUE-123 -- Autofocus attribute security concerns -- closed
# [09:34] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/123
# [09:35] <oedipus> issue-122?
# [09:35] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-122
# [09:35] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
# [09:35] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
# [09:35] <janina> q?
# [09:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:35] <kliehm> cyns: The "Lady of Shalott" example in the alt techniques document is disputed. It has been argued that it's improperly labeled, and that the image should be considered purely decorative rather than "enhance[ing] the themes or subject matter of the page content", and that it should be given empty alt text rather than a brief description. The scope of this issue is the Lady of Shalott...
# [09:35] <kliehm> ...example, and in particular, the alt text used in it, the description of this example, and any other closely related matters.
# [09:36] <oedipus> related bug 1: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9077
# [09:36] <kliehm> cyns: change proposal #1: do nothing
# [09:36] <oedipus> related bug 2: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9081
# [09:36] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-122
# [09:36] * dsinger if I am looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html-alt-techniques-20100624/ section 6.1, is this the example we're looking at?
# [09:37] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0393.html
# [09:37] <kliehm> paulc: the chairs issued a call for counter proposals last week
# [09:37] <kliehm> oedipus: the Lady of Shalott example is used several times in the document.
# [09:37] <kliehm> cyns: I think the example does the job
# [09:37] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques
# [09:38] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Ping timeout)
# [09:38] <kliehm> paulc: Deadline is November 27 for alternate or counter proposals. It also implies to the document.
# [09:38] * oedipus thanks, paul
# [09:40] * Joins: anne (annevk@84.14.50.82)
# [09:40] <paulc> Here is the end of the -122 thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0404.html
# [09:40] <kliehm> paulc: If anybody wants to adopt Issue-122 and needs more time the chairs would extend the deadline.
# [09:41] * oedipus closed wontfix needsmoreinfo
# [09:42] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
# [09:42] * Joins: yongil_jang (yongil@93.158.28.173)
# [09:43] <kliehm> cyns: there were three survey options from yesterday's meeting
# [09:44] <oedipus> in editor's draft the entirty of 4.8.1.1.1 General guidelines is "ISSUE-31 (alt-conformance-requirements) blocks progress to Last Call"
# [09:44] <kliehm> paulc: I suggest taking the thread from the HTML list and putting it on the TF list
# [09:44] <kliehm> janina: putting discussion of the "Lady of Shalott" example on the TF agenda for next week
# [09:45] <oedipus> paulc, cyns, janina - the lady of shallot example follows the text "Examples where the image is purely decorative despite being relevant would include things like a photo of the Black Rock City landscape in a blog post about an event at Burning Man, or an image of a painting inspired by a poem, on a page reciting that poem. The following snippet shows an example of the latter case (only the...
# [09:45] <oedipus> ...first verse is included in this snippet)" in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element
# [09:45] <kliehm> issue-133?
# [09:45] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-133
# [09:45] <trackbot> ISSUE-133 -- Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) -- raised
# [09:45] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
# [09:45] <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10645
# [09:46] <oedipus> q+ what i think we need for issue 180 is to get the lady of shallott example out of http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and replace example with code illustrating one of hixie's prose examples, like a photo of black rock city
# [09:46] * Zakim oedipus, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [09:47] <oedipus> q+ to say what i think we need for issue 180 is to get the lady of shallott example out of http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and replace example with code illustrating one of hixie's prose examples, like a photo of black rock city
# [09:47] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [09:47] <janina> q?
# [09:47] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [09:47] * oedipus note, i am on queue to talk about disposing 1ssue 80
# [09:48] * oedipus take others before me --
# [09:48] <kliehm> cyns: Modal dialogs are usually created by JavaScript. Accessibility might be added with ARIA, but it depends on the author.
# [09:48] <oedipus> ack me
# [09:48] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say what i think we need for issue 180 is to get the lady of shallott example out of http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and
# [09:48] <Zakim> ... replace example with code illustrating one of hixie's prose examples, like a photo of black rock city
# [09:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:49] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
# [09:50] <kliehm> oedipus: propopsing to write another example that will be posted to the a11y TF list
# [09:50] <kliehm> q+
# [09:50] * Zakim sees kliehm on the speaker queue
# [09:53] <kliehm> kliehm, janina: there's consensus that modal is necessary, the question is whether we want to wait
# [09:53] <kliehm> ack k
# [09:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:54] <kliehm> paulc: since the bug has been escalated somebody doesn't want to wait
# [09:54] <kliehm> (tracker issue has been added by Steve Faulkner)
# [09:54] * oedipus pinged steve with passcode
# [09:54] <oedipus> paulc, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
# [09:54] <kliehm> cyns: adding text to the spec doesn't seem to be that difficult, but implementing might be
# [09:56] * oedipus was i assigned an action item for 180?
# [09:56] <oedipus> issue-80: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0071.html
# [09:56] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-80.
# [09:56] <trackbot> ISSUE-80 document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content notes added
# [09:57] <kliehm> paulc: pinging Everett Zufelt to write a change proposal
# [09:57] <oedipus> issue-80: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
# [09:57] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-80.
# [09:57] <trackbot> ISSUE-80 document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content notes added
# [09:57] <kliehm> janina: putting issue 133 on the agenda of next week's call
# [09:57] <kliehm> issue-134?
# [09:57] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-134
# [09:57] <trackbot> ISSUE-134 -- Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively -- raised
# [09:57] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
# [09:57] * oedipus FYI everett lives in tornonto and hosts accessibletwitter.com
# [09:58] <oedipus> issue-180: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0071.html
# [09:58] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-180.
# [09:58] <trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-180 failed, please let sysreq know about it
# [09:59] <oedipus> issue-180: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
# [09:59] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-180.
# [09:59] <trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-180 failed, please let sysreq know about it
# [09:59] * oedipus grrr....
# [10:00] <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example
# [10:00] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [10:00] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [10:00] <trackbot> Created ACTION-195 - - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-11-12].
# [10:01] <kliehm> cyns: I would support a change proposal, but I think there are more urgent priorities.
# [10:01] <kliehm> paulc: pinging Everett to provide a use case
# [10:02] <oedipus> issue-122: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0071.html
# [10:02] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-122.
# [10:02] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example notes added
# [10:02] <cyns> topic: bug review
# [10:02] <oedipus> issue-122: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
# [10:02] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-122.
# [10:02] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example notes added
# [10:04] <oedipus> action-195: this is bound to issue-122 "alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example"
# [10:04] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-195.
# [10:04] <trackbot> ACTION-195 - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example notes added
# [10:04] * oedipus everett@zufelt.ca
# [10:04] <cyns> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8885
# [10:04] <oedipus> issue-122: this is bound to action-195
# [10:04] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-122.
# [10:04] <trackbot> ISSUE-122 alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example notes added
# [10:04] <cyns> scribenick: cyns
# [10:05] <cyns> opens a larger issue. No consistent fallback for embedded content, canvas, svg, iframe, etc.
# [10:05] <cyns> mk: If there is fallback content,
# [10:06] <cyns> mk: if there is fallback content it is not used for accessiblity, except in teh case of canvas
# [10:07] <cyns> mk: this bug is entitled embedded content, but gives an example about captioned video. Ian Hixon made a good point that this was inteded to apply to all elements in the section: audio, canvas, embed, iframe, img, etc
# [10:07] * Quits: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [10:07] <artur> q+
# [10:07] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
# [10:07] <cyns> mk: frank yesterday said there should be accessible fallback content beyond a title attribute or alt text.
# [10:07] <janina> q?
# [10:07] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
# [10:08] <cyns> ao: the differnce btwn canvas and all the toher elements, is that canvas doesn't have an underlying dom with sematnic inforamtion. the others do.
# [10:08] * Joins: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82)
# [10:08] <cyns> ao: the accessible dom makes canvas more like SVG in that you can navigate the dom to get accessiblity
# [10:09] <cyns> mc: we would like consistent approach to fallbacks between different types of objects.
# [10:09] <cyns> mc: we haven't come to an opinion about which mechanism we'd like to see
# [10:10] <cyns> mk: should img be able to hold other elements as well?
# [10:10] <cyns> mc: we'd like that in an ideal world. object was introduced in html 4 to address this issue, but it never took off
# [10:11] <cyns> mc: we want direct semantic association of fallbacks, and the ability to differentiate between short and longer, richer fallbacks.
# [10:11] * Quits: Vagner-br (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [10:11] <cyns> mc: but we also have to synch up with history of what has been implemented, and can be implemented
# [10:11] <cyns> mk: embed, for example, there is fallback content possible, but only for browsers taht don't support the content
# [10:12] <cyns> mc: if you use embed for flash content, users who have flash installed can't access the fallback, even if they can't use the flash content
# [10:14] <cyns> mc: how important is consistency, and how much attention are we going to pay to backward compatibility, and some of the specifics: is alt good enough, or do we need richer fallback. and the issue of long fallbacks (longdesc vs. nested content)
# [10:15] <janina> q?
# [10:15] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
# [10:15] <janina> q?
# [10:15] * Zakim sees artur on the speaker queue
# [10:15] <janina> ack ar
# [10:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:15] <cyns> cs: not sure that consistency is important enough to justify the difficulty of approaching them. details are very different, inconsisten in other ways.
# [10:16] * Quits: oedipus (chatzilla@70.21.184.131) (Connection reset by peer)
# [10:16] <cyns> ao: some elements already have dom fallback, others need to have it added. img would be nice, but...
# [10:16] <cyns> js: consistency is almost a little theoretical because the situations are so different. the notion that workable fallback is available, and that you can get at it is important
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# [10:16] * Joins: oedipus (chatzilla@70.21.184.131)
# [10:17] <cyns> mk: PF asked Gez to file bug in january
# [10:17] * oedipus ff crashed taking chatzilla with it
# [10:17] <cyns> js: was part of our review
# [10:18] <cyns> cs: PF having filed the bug doesn't mean PF thought it was high priority, jsut part of a broad review
# [10:18] <oedipus> Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
# [10:18] <cyns> cs: I would be ok with postponing consistency to the next version of html
# [10:18] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
# [10:19] <cyns> mk: consistency is a starting position, but we're not sure that each of these has a workable fallback mechanism. Ensuring that is important.
# [10:19] * Quits: yongil_jang (yongil@93.158.28.173) (Ping timeout)
# [10:19] <oedipus> i had a wiki page on a consistent approach to multimedia objects (including object and embed, but can't find it on any of the wikis
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# [10:20] <cyns> cs: action is to do a gap analysis for each element and propose individual bugs
# [10:20] <cyns> cs: MK, do you own that? Can someone help him?
# [10:21] <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
# [10:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MichaelC
# [10:21] * MichaelC why are logs going to yesterday?
# [10:22] * oedipus i was told that the chairs wanted one big log of minutes for each room
# [10:22] <cyns> pc: must get this done asap, because ian has Dec 8 deadline
# [10:22] * adrianba logging to one log worked well for webapps
# [10:22] <cyns> mk: bug triage team will take this on.
# [10:22] * adrianba especially picking up from the previous day
# [10:23] * oedipus adrianba, makes sense
# [10:23] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [10:23] * kliehm also we began at 8:30 CET when it was still yesterday in the US
# [10:24] * Quits: Norm (ndw@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [10:24] <oedipus> Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
# [10:24] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
# [10:24] * MichaelC ok
# [10:25] * oedipus should i stay on the line or drop? i think the line was reserved for 120 minutes, right?
# [10:25] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
# [10:25] <Marco_Ranon> I won't be able to join the meeting for the rest of the day. I might stay on irc tho.
# [10:26] * oedipus can i hang up to recharge my phone?
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# [10:27] * Quits: gavin__ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
# [10:28] <Marco_Ranon> Bye everyone
# [10:28] * kliehm next: ARIA / APIs at 11:00 CET
# [10:28] * kliehm i.e. in 35 minutes
# [10:28] * oedipus dropped off line to recharge phone
# [10:29] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)07:45Z has ended
# [10:29] <Zakim> Attendees were
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# [10:34] * Quits: mjs (mjs@84.14.50.82) (Quit: mjs)
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# [10:36] * Quits: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82) (Quit: igarashi)
# [10:38] <oedipus> FYI EPUB discussion from room 3B is minuted at: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html#item05
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# [10:56] * oedipus steve faulkner will be joining us at the top of the hour
# [10:58] <oedipus> ACTION-194: bound to ISSUE-31 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
# [10:58] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-194.
# [10:58] <trackbot> ACTION-194 Draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element notes added
# [11:02] <kliehm> zakim, call Rhone_3A
# [11:02] <Zakim> sorry, kliehm, I don't know what conference this is
# [11:03] * oedipus martin, i think cooper closed the conference after the first session
# [11:03] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 90 minutes?
# [11:04] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)10:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 90 minutes until 1130Z
# [11:04] <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
# [11:04] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [11:04] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)10:00Z has now started
# [11:04] * oedipus thanks MC
# [11:04] <oedipus> zakim, passcode?
# [11:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), oedipus
# [11:04] * oedipus back on line
# [11:05] * oedipus steve faulkner will be joining us at the top of the hour
# [11:05] <paulc> Topic: ARIA mappings
# [11:05] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [11:06] <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
# [11:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
# [11:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see yosuke, mjs, Martijnc, Norm, kohei, plh, gavin_, oedipus, plinss_lyon, kennyluck, anne, fantasai, jun, shepazu, adrianba, sylvaing, homata, taisukef, yuma_1985, artur,
# [11:06] <Zakim> ... kensaku, davidC, wonsuk, seungjae, MikeSmith, Zakim, cyns, paulc, weinig, myakura, mgylling, kliehm, shan, dsinger, janina, MichaelC, freedom, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj,
# [11:06] * Joins: jorlow (jorlow@74.125.57.60)
# [11:06] <Zakim> ... colinsullivan, arronei, Lachy, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, silvia, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed,
# [11:06] <Zakim> ... trackbot, RRSAgent
# [11:06] * oedipus that you, steve?
# [11:07] <janina> zakim, who's here?
# [11:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
# [11:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see jorlow, yosuke, mjs, Martijnc, Norm, kohei, plh, gavin_, oedipus, plinss_lyon, kennyluck, anne, fantasai, jun, shepazu, adrianba, sylvaing, homata, taisukef,
# [11:07] <Zakim> ... yuma_1985, artur, kensaku, davidC, wonsuk, seungjae, MikeSmith, Zakim, cyns, paulc, weinig, myakura, mgylling, kliehm, shan, dsinger, janina, MichaelC, freedom, Marco_Ranon,
# [11:07] <Zakim> ... ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, Lachy, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, silvia, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny,
# [11:07] <Zakim> ... sideshow, ed, trackbot
# [11:07] * oedipus there are 2 of us on the phone
# [11:07] <janina> scribe: janina
# [11:07] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@94.172.220.38)
# [11:07] * Parts: jorlow (jorlow@74.125.57.60)
# [11:08] * oedipus hooray!
# [11:08] <oedipus> present+ Steve_Faulkner
# [11:09] * oedipus cyns, rich has been idle on IRC for 17 hours, so i don't think he is yet available
# [11:09] <janina> cyns: Let's look at html - aria mapping bugs
# [11:09] <janina> cyns: will be asking status
# [11:09] <richardschwerdtfe> what is the call in?
# [11:10] <oedipus> zakim, passcode 26631
# [11:10] <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode 26631', oedipus
# [11:10] <janina> zakim, code?
# [11:10] <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), janina
# [11:10] <janina> cyns: bug 10450
# [11:10] * Joins: hidetaka (hidetaka@84.14.50.82)
# [11:11] * oedipus welcome, rich!
# [11:11] <richardschwerdtfe> thank you
# [11:11] * Quits: jun (jun@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jun)
# [11:11] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450
# [11:12] <janina> martin: issue relates correct identification tab 1 of 4, e.g.
# [11:12] <janina> cyns: reason it's on anchor and not on list is backward compatability
# [11:13] <janina> martin: could work even without js
# [11:13] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450#c19 - hixie's last comment on bug 10450
# [11:13] <janina> sf: this bug resolved
# [11:13] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82)
# [11:13] <oedipus> hixie: "The remaining issue in this bug therefore seems to be handled by bug 10919. I'll fix it there and am returning this bug to the FIXED state as per comment 1."
# [11:13] <janina> cyns: 10903
# [11:14] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10903
# [11:14] <janina> cyns controversary?
# [11:14] <janina> cyns: waiting for resolution of issue-129 before making spec changes
# [11:14] <oedipus> steve logged as issue-129 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
# [11:15] <oedipus> hixie: "Since this is the topic of an ongoing working group issue, I'll wait until the chairs have resolved the relevant issue before making any changes here."
# [11:15] * Joins: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82)
# [11:15] <janina> cyns: looking for sense of the room on importance of this introductory text
# [11:15] <janina> rich: why's there an issue with having intro text?
# [11:15] * Quits: yuma_1985 (yuma_1985@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [11:15] <janina> cyns: agree it should exist, but what's the importance of pushing for it?
# [11:15] * Joins: yuma_1985 (yuma_1985@84.14.50.82)
# [11:15] <oedipus> steve's bug report details: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10903#c0
# [11:16] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@84.14.50.82) (Quit: dsinger)
# [11:16] <oedipus> hixie: "Since this is the topic of an ongoing working group issue, I'll wait until the chairs have resolved the relevant issue before making any changes here."
# [11:16] <janina> sf: next action is ian's ...
# [11:16] <janina> s/ian's/editor's/
# [11:16] <oedipus> bug 10903 is bound to issue-129
# [11:17] <oedipus> issue-129?
# [11:17] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-129
# [11:17] <trackbot> ISSUE-129 -- replace or modify the ARIA section of the HTML5 spec -- raised
# [11:17] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
# [11:17] <janina> zakim, call janina
# [11:17] <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
# [11:17] <janina> cyns: bug 10444
# [11:18] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444
# [11:18] <oedipus> bug 10444 also bound to issue-129 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
# [11:19] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
# [11:19] <oedipus> hixie's comment "rejected / see comment 7 [http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444#c7]
# [11:19] <janina> cyns: current status?
# [11:20] * Joins: Kai (Kai@84.14.50.82)
# [11:20] <janina> cyns: we need to escalate this bug?
# [11:20] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@84.14.50.82)
# [11:21] <oedipus> mjs description of bug 10444 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444#c0
# [11:21] <janina> sf: needs chair attention
# [11:22] <janina> sf: perhaps bugs in issue-129 that no longer need action should be removed from issue-129?
# [11:22] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450
# [11:22] <janina> cyns: so to remove 10450, we need consensus that we agree on resolution of 10450
# [11:23] * Joins: eliot (eliot@84.14.50.82)
# [11:23] <paulc> See http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-129
# [11:23] * kliehm rrsagent, make minutes
# [11:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [11:23] <oedipus> hixie: "Status: Partially Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I didn't add "presentation", but added the others. If there's a use case for presentation that doesn't involve non-conforming use of these elements, please reopen the bug (or file a new one, if the use case applies to other elements also)."
# [11:24] <janina> paulc: not seeing 10450 on my issue-129 status page
# [11:24] <janina> paulc: go to the table, not the issue itself for current status
# [11:24] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-129
# [11:25] <janina> cyns: need to update
# [11:25] <janina> paulc: issue itself describes the bugs that apply?
# [11:25] <janina> cyns: yes, it should
# [11:25] * Joins: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82)
# [11:26] <janina> paulc: bug marked fixed, which is why it's not in table
# [11:26] <janina> cyns: we agree? seems yes
# [11:26] <oedipus> hixie: "Status: Partially Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I didn't add "presentation", but added the others. If there's a use case for presentation that doesn't involve non-conforming use of these elements, please reopen the bug (or file a new one, if the use case applies to other elements also)."
# [11:27] <janina> cyns: presentation is now allowed everywhere, which is why we now consider 10450 fixed
# [11:27] <janina> cyns: without 10444 spec less usable -- strong view
# [11:27] <oedipus> hixie's comment "rejected / see comment 7 [http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444#c7]
# [11:28] <janina> paulc: next step should be to write a change proposal
# [11:28] <janina> cyns: this is included in the larger change proposal, we need to split it out?
# [11:28] <janina> paulc: window closes in 16 days
# [11:28] <oedipus> issue-129 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
# [11:29] <janina> cyns: who's writing spec text on this?
# [11:29] <janina> sf: text is already there
# [11:29] <janina> sf: we need to see whether we agree
# [11:29] <janina> cyns: let's find out now
# [11:29] <janina> sf: looking for text ...
# [11:30] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450#c6
# [11:31] <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ARIAIntegration
# [11:31] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.59.50) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [11:32] * oedipus rrsagent, make minutes
# [11:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
# [11:32] <janina> cyns: let's look at 10448 while steve looks for 10444 text ...
# [11:32] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10448 Consider broadening the set of allowed roles for command elements
# [11:32] * Joins: jun (jun@84.14.50.82)
# [11:32] <janina> cyns: some elements are commands in menu, and not outside of menu tag
# [11:33] <oedipus> bug 10448 marked as "RESOLVED WONTFIX"
# [11:33] <janina> cyns: goal to allow more specific roles when used in a more advanced way
# [11:33] <janina> cyns: peopls frequently use anchor or button as basis for more advanced control, so need aria roles to make role explicit
# [11:33] <janina> cyns: this is very common in the wild
# [11:34] <Stevef> aria change proposal http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5
# [11:34] <janina> cyns: we discussed command interchangeability -- client os often don't understand distinction either -- aria provides repair
# [11:35] <janina> cyns: editor does not agree with this assessment, our proposal has been rejected
# [11:35] <janina> cyns: do we need another separate proposal?
# [11:35] <janina> paulc: chairs firmly believe in divide and conquer. an individual bug is very helpful
# [11:36] <Stevef> 3.2.6 Use of WAI-ARIA Roles, States and Properties in HTML http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html
# [11:36] <janina> cyns: even though we have proposed this change, we should do so again, because the previous proposal was an omnibus?
# [11:37] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
# [11:38] <janina> paulc: so, give us a change proposal that deals with all the remaining issues in issue-129
# [11:38] <janina> cyns: so, revise our existing change proposal?
# [11:38] <janina> paulc: yes
# [11:38] <janina> cyns: and remove those that are resolved to our satisfaction?
# [11:38] <janina> paulc: yes
# [11:39] <oedipus> the following bugs are associated with ISSUE-129: Bug 10450 -Allow lists to be used as menus or tab sets http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450 Bug 10903 -provide an introduction to wai-aria in the wai aria section of the spec http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10903 Bug 10444 -ARIA section does not list elements that have no default role or role restrictions...
# [11:39] <oedipus> ...http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444 related to Bug 10603 -Clarify what default roles UAs may assign to elements not listed in the ARIA section http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10603 Bug 10448 -Consider broadening the set of allowed roles for command elements http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10448 Bug 10449 -Consider allowing various command-like...
# [11:39] <oedipus> ...ARIA roles for h1-h6 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10449 Bug 10462 -merge ARIA mapping tables and list http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10462 Bug 10481 -Default role of <IMG> should be "img" http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10481 Bug 10493 -"ARIA restricts usage of this role to one per page" is an unclear statement http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug
# [11:39] <oedipus> .cgi?id=10493 Bug 10592 -"h1 to h6 element that does have an hgroup ancestor" not listed in ARIA section http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10592 Bug 10594 -conforming use of various aria attributes not specified http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10594 Bug 8000 - ARIA roles added to the a element should be conforming in HTML5 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=800
# [11:39] <oedipus> 0 Bug 10478 -modify table, tr and td roles
# [11:39] <janina> oedipus, you're listing at least one already resolved and removed -- 10450 ...
# [11:39] * Quits: jun (jun@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jun)
# [11:40] <oedipus> bugs associated with ISSUE 129 Bug 10450, Bug 10903, Bug 10444, Bug 10603, Bug 10448, Bug 10449, Bug 10462, Bug 10481, Bug 10493, Bug 10592, Bug 10594, Bug 8000, Bug 10478
# [11:40] <Stevef> 3.2.6 Use of WAI-ARIA Roles, States and Properties in HTML http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html
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# [11:42] <janina> cyns: are there multiple bugs that deal with the organization of this table? can we combine those?
# [11:42] <janina> sf: yes
# [11:43] <oedipus> bug 10462 merge mapping tables and list: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10462
# [11:43] <janina> cyns: 10444 and 10462 about how to present -- we're proposing them in an alphabetized table
# [11:43] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
# [11:43] <janina> cyns: those two highly related -- perhaps to survey?
# [11:44] * oedipus janina, just discovered that if you type "bug number" it will auto-hyperlink the string "bug number" to the actual bug
# [11:44] <janina> cyns: anyone think it better to list things that have no default mapping?
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# [11:44] <janina> rich: it may be helpful to say why some don't have default mappings
# [11:45] <janina> rich: perhaps that would explain the overall approach
# [11:45] <janina> cyns: might that alleviate editor's concerns
# [11:45] <janina> rich: don't know
# [11:45] <janina> sf: neither i
# [11:46] <janina> cyns: rejected over maintanance difficulty
# [11:46] <janina> cyns: think we addressing that
# [11:47] <janina> cyns: these two roles about readability of the spec
# [11:47] <janina> cyns: agree that 10444 without 10462 is a problem, but when taken together there's not that problem
# [11:48] <janina> cyns: i'll take the next step on this
# [11:48] <janina> cyns 10448 ...
# [11:48] <janina> cyns about command
# [11:49] <janina> cyns: status is rejected; makes no sense
# [11:49] <janina> cyns: a diference in uderstanding purpose of aria
# [11:49] <oedipus> Q+ to say that in HTML5 spec @role is referred to as being part of aria, when aria explicitly states that @role defined in Role Attribute, not ARIA
# [11:49] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [11:49] <janina> cyns: how do we resolve purpose of aria? this is a consistent problem.
# [11:49] <oedipus> aria: "A WAI-ARIA role is set on an element using a role attribute, similar to the role attribute defined in the Role Attribute [ROLE]."
# [11:49] <oedipus> html5: "Authors may use the ARIA role and aria-* attributes on HTML elements, in accordance with the requirements described in the ARIA specifications, except where these conflict with the strong native semantics described below. These exceptions are intended to prevent authors from making assistive technology products report nonsensical states that do not represent the actual state of the...
# [11:50] <oedipus> ...document. [ARIA]"
# [11:50] <oedipus> q?
# [11:50] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [11:51] <janina> rich: authors will do what authors will do
# [11:51] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132)
# [11:51] <janina> rich: we need a repair opportunity when they misues native html
# [11:52] <janina> artur: there is also used as intended, but aria increases accessibility
# [11:52] <janina> paulc: that's the kind of technical rationale that need to be presented in rebuttal
# [11:53] <janina> paulc: simply say "we want this changed for the following reason," and give the reason plus the use case.
# [11:53] <janina> cyns: and address those in the change proposal
# [11:53] <janina> paulc: yes
# [11:53] <janina> sf: we've done that
# [11:53] <janina> rich: yes, but was ignored
# [11:54] <janina> paulc: resolution of a bug?
# [11:54] <janina> rich: yes
# [11:54] <oedipus> q-
# [11:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [11:54] <janina> paulc: so now we're talking about resolution of an issue, not a bug. But, do provide the rationale and use cases, because that helps should it go to survey
# [11:55] <janina> cyns: sounds like to take discussion on bug, artur's example, and add to proposal
# [11:55] <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAonanchor
# [11:55] <janina> cyns: steve?
# [11:56] <janina> sf: would want help with it
# [11:59] <oedipus> @role used on http://www.accessibletwitter.com
# [12:00] <oedipus> what hixie calls "self-styled accessibility experts"?
# [12:00] <janina> paulc: a rationale that appeals to expertise isn't acceptable; nor is tha ttitude that "i don't want to do it" from the editor
# [12:00] <janina> paulc: provide the rationale and use case of why
# [12:00] <oedipus> hixie has dismissed a lot of input by what hecalls "self-styled accessibility experts" even on things that come from the TF
# [12:01] <janina> rich: editor says "show me where it's been implemented"
# [12:01] <janina> paulc: should standards lead or follow was the analog of this question at the plennary
# [12:01] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.223.174.132) (Ping timeout)
# [12:01] <janina> paulc: it's the chair's job here to find consensus on this question with this issue
# [12:02] <Stevef> Guiding factors for decisions on ARIA Role use: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5#Guiding_factors_for_decisions_on_ARIA_Role_use:
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# [12:02] <janina> sf: is this principals approach sufficient, or do we need to go role by role
# [12:03] <janina> paulc: sounds systematic and probably will have someone argue against
# [12:03] <janina> paulc: looks necessary, but can't guarantee it's sufficient
# [12:03] <janina> cyns: a different question -- about effectiveness
# [12:04] <janina> cyns: would individual change proposals for individual bugs be more effective?
# [12:04] <janina> paulc: whatever gets the november date is the best answer
# [12:04] * Joins: jun (jun@84.14.50.82)
# [12:05] <janina> paulc: suggest concentrate on meeting the deadline, and ask this later
# [12:06] <janina> paulc: be clear which text is associated with which bug
# [12:06] <MikeSmith> issue-27?
# [12:06] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-27
# [12:06] <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- @rel value ownership, registry consideration -- open
# [12:06] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27
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# [12:07] <janina> cyns: so guiding factor -- particularly on command -- very important because editor isn't understanding why we picked those
# [12:07] <janina> cyns: I'll take this one 10448
# [12:08] * Quits: kensaku (kensaku.ko@84.14.50.82) (Client exited)
# [12:09] <janina> paulc: main reason for writing an omnibus change proposal is that there's overlap -- let's worry about the disentaglement later
# [12:09] * oedipus rrsagent, make minutes
# [12:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
# [12:09] <janina> paulc: if proposal says a need for 1, b need for 2 & 3, c needed for 4-6; that's what helps chairs
# [12:09] <janina> cyns bug 10449
# [12:10] <janina> cyns: roles for h1-h6
# [12:10] <janina> rich: we showed how these could be used like buttons ...
# [12:10] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [12:11] <janina> rich: we've seen this from the wild
# [12:11] * Quits: jun (jun@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jun)
# [12:11] <janina> rich: our argument is that a header can be repurposed through js; and we need the ability to repair to convey intent
# [12:12] <oedipus> IE8 uses a button defined as a header in "friendly" failure methods
# [12:12] <janina> cyns: one side says "authors do this," other side says "they shouldn't."
# [12:12] <oedipus> s/failure methods/failure messages/
# [12:12] <janina> cyns: is this rich's proposal
# [12:12] <janina> rich: yes
# [12:12] * Quits: plinss_lyon (plinss@212.180.75.100) (Ping timeout)
# [12:13] <janina> rich: right now in escalation
# [12:13] <janina> cyns: next step is to update proposal for the decision, needs to be done by 21st
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# [12:14] * Quits: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [12:14] <janina> cyns: we're updating our omnibus change proposal to include only bugs unresolved, and to insure clear rationale and use cases -- by 21st
# [12:14] <artur> example of using <h3/> for (WAI-ARIA) collapsable menus: http://test.cita.illinois.edu/aria/
# [12:14] <oedipus> agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda
# [12:14] <janina> cyns: can you do this part by then, rich?
# [12:14] <janina> rich: yes
# [12:14] <MikeSmith> trackbot, help
# [12:14] <trackbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
# [12:15] <MikeSmith> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
# [12:15] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg2...
# [12:15] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [12:15] <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
# [12:15] <janina> action: rich to update change proposal re bu 10449
# [12:15] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [12:15] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [12:15] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [12:15] <janina> action cyns to update change proposal for bug 10448
# [12:15] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [12:15] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [12:16] <oedipus> actoin: cyns to update change proposal for bug 10448
# [12:16] <oedipus> action: cyns to update change proposal for bug 10448
# [12:16] * RRSAgent records action 9
# [12:16] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [12:16] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [12:16] <janina> action: steve to update change proposal for bugs 10444 and 10462
# [12:16] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [12:16] * RRSAgent records action 10
# [12:16] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [12:16] <janina> cyns: 10481.
# [12:17] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10481
# [12:17] <janina> cyns: we want img to map to aria img -- backwards compatibility rationale
# [12:18] * oedipus MikeSmith, are you trying to change trackbot for #html-wg2 -- you are entering commands into #html-wg
# [12:18] <janina> cyns: have a hard time understanding editor's response
# [12:19] <janina> cyns: who owns?
# [12:19] <janina> action: steve to update change proposal for bug 10481
# [12:19] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [12:19] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [12:19] * RRSAgent records action 11
# [12:19] <oedipus> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg
# [12:19] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg...
# [12:21] <janina> cyns: 10493
# [12:21] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493 "ARIA restricts usage of this role to one per page" is an unclear statement
# [12:21] <janina> sf: header, footer ...
# [12:22] <janina> sf: not highest priority
# [12:22] <janina> cyns: about about mismatches between numbers allowed by html vs aria?
# [12:22] <oedipus> editor's response to bug 10493: "Status: Partially Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I just removed the parentheticals altogether, since they were a bit out of place... everything in ARIA has restrictions, it was a bit weird just to call these out specifically."
# [12:23] <janina> cyns: if we let this stand, how bad is that?
# [12:23] <oedipus> steve requested clarification, and hixie responded by removing the section
# [12:23] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493#c3
# [12:23] <janina> cyns: suggest we let this one stand
# [12:24] <janina> sf: yes
# [12:25] <janina> paulc: clearly say this bug is ok
# [12:25] * Quits: artur (BluFudge@217.12.15.52) (Quit: wrapping up to check-out in the hotel and making my way to the airport... Cherio!)
# [12:25] <janina> cyns: also a bugzilla task to accept the resolution
# [12:25] <janina> aulc: yes
# [12:25] <janina> cyns: 10592
# [12:26] <janina> cyns: h1-h6 without ancestor
# [12:26] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493#c3 ""h1 to h6 element that does have an hgroup ancestor" not listed in ARIA section"
# [12:26] <oedipus> CORRECTION: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10592 ""h1 to h6 element that does have an hgroup ancestor" not listed in ARIA section"
# [12:27] * Quits: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [12:27] * MichaelC requests steve speak closer to microphone
# [12:28] <janina> rich: does h-group take a label?
# [12:28] <janina> cyns: no, name from chn
# [12:29] <janina> action: steve to updage change proposal on bug 10592
# [12:29] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [12:29] * RRSAgent records action 12
# [12:29] <trackbot> Created ACTION-197 - Updage change proposal on bug 10592 [on Steve Faulkner - due 2010-11-12].
# [12:29] <oedipus> steve asked how the semantics of the following be exposed: <hgroup><h1>heading</h1><h2>subheading</h2></hgroup>
# [12:29] <janina> cyns: 10594
# [12:29] <janina> cyns: hidden, grabed and invalid
# [12:30] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10594 conforming use of various aria attributes not specified
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# [12:31] <janina> cyns: do you have proposed spec text?
# [12:31] <janina> sf: yes
# [12:31] <janina> cyns: editor didn't know what to write -- or that long text belongs here
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# [12:32] <janina> action: steve to updage change proposal for bug 10594
# [12:32] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [12:32] * RRSAgent records action 13
# [12:32] <trackbot> Created ACTION-198 - Updage change proposal for bug 10594 [on Steve Faulkner - due 2010-11-12].
# [12:32] <janina> cyns: 10603
# [12:33] <janina> cyns: what default roles may be assigned
# [12:33] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10603
# [12:33] * Quits: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [12:33] <janina> cyns: things missing from the table
# [12:33] <janina> cyns: related to 10444 and 10462
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# [12:33] <janina> sf: says related
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# [12:34] <janina> cyns: 10903
# [12:34] <janina> cyns: an intro
# [12:34] * oedipus janina: action dash number colon space text to be added to action number
# [12:34] <janina> cyns: editor is waiting -- so we add to the proposal -- not controversial
# [12:35] <janina> cyns: bug 8000
# [12:35] <janina> cyns: this part of commands -- tied to my action
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# [12:36] * oedipus janina: action dash number colon space text to be added to action
# [12:36] * Parts: silvia (Adium@124.168.8.234)
# [12:36] <janina> cyns: bug 8000 action to be added to action on 10448
# [12:37] <oedipus> there is a hand-off to the ARIA spec when @role is mentioned in section 3.6.2
# [12:38] <richardschwerdtfe> are we over time?
# [12:38] <janina> sf: we need to look at 10478
# [12:38] <oedipus> @role is not included in the list of HTML5 attributes
# [12:38] <janina> cyns: you added this to issue-129?
# [12:38] <janina> sf: yes
# [12:38] <janina> cyns: so, first, do we consider this still open?
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# [12:39] <oedipus> hixie on 10478: "Status: Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I gave up trying to understand this."
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# [12:40] <janina> sf: i have a problem with th being turned into a button
# [12:40] <janina> cyns: but it seems similar to turning headings into buttons. are we consistent?
# [12:40] <janina> sf: so can have role on any table element -- is that ok?
# [12:40] <janina> cyns: my preference
# [12:40] <janina> rich: people will simply do it
# [12:41] <janina> cyns: think there are legit scenarios for it
# [12:41] <janina> cyns: also undermines our argument on headings to take that up differently
# [12:41] <janina> cyns: we leave this closed.
# [12:41] <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
# [12:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html janina
# [12:42] <janina> rich: i remember bug date, but not this date
# [12:43] <janina> cyns: steve, are you ok?
# [12:43] <janina> sf: yes
# [12:43] <janina> sf: most is already done
# [12:44] <janina> cyns: i will be stricter with myself and rich than with steve. we should have draft next week
# [12:44] <janina> rich: let's meet early next week
# [12:44] <janina> cyns: i will writ emine off line, and suggest email by friday next
# [12:44] * Quits: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [12:44] <oedipus> rich, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0136.html
# [12:45] <oedipus> rich, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0125.html
# [12:45] <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
# [12:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html janina
# [12:45] <oedipus> timeline to last call: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
# [12:46] * oedipus break for hour?
# [12:47] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)10:00Z has ended
# [12:47] <Zakim> Attendees were
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# [14:03] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 240 minutes?
# [14:03] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)13:00Z scheduled with code 26635 (CONF5) for 240 minutes until 1700Z
# [14:04] <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
# [14:04] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [14:04] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)13:00Z has now started
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# [14:05] <richardschwerdtfe> what is the passcode?
# [14:05] * oedipus gregory rejoining
# [14:05] <oedipus> 26635
# [14:05] <janina> zakim, who's here?
# [14:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
# [14:05] <Zakim> On IRC I see adam, anne, mjs, SGondo, homata, yuma_1985, davidb, hidetaka, myakura, shepazu, aroben, laplink, jun, oedipus, Lachy, Stevef, Martijnc, plh, gavin_, fantasai, wonsuk,
# [14:06] <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, Zakim, mgylling, janina, MichaelC, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1,
# [14:06] <Zakim> ... gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai, drry, hsivonen, jwm
# [14:06] * oedipus i think steve, rich and i are on the phone
# [14:06] <richardschwerdtfe> i am on
# [14:06] <janina> zakim, this is roam_3a
# [14:06] <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not see a conference named 'roam_3a' in progress or scheduled at this time
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# [14:07] <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
# [14:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
# [14:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see adrianba, freedom, dsinger, adam, anne, mjs, SGondo, homata, yuma_1985, davidb, hidetaka, myakura, shepazu, aroben, laplink, jun, oedipus, Lachy, Stevef, Martijnc,
# [14:07] <Zakim> ... plh, gavin_, fantasai, wonsuk, MikeSmith, Zakim, mgylling, janina, MichaelC, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, inimino, webr3,
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# [14:07] <Zakim> ... Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai, drry, hsivonen, jwm
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# [14:08] <MichaelC> topic: Canvas
# [14:08] <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
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# [14:09] <MichaelC> fo: 2 proposals - imagemap, and DOM
# [14:09] <MichaelC> MS supports DOM, implemented in IE9
# [14:09] <MichaelC> anybody else?
# [14:09] <MichaelC> rs: filed a bug with Firefox, but not in yet
# [14:10] <MichaelC> ds: <interrupted>
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# [14:10] <MichaelC> fo: so looks like support centering around that
# [14:10] <dbaron> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
# [14:10] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg2...
# [14:10] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [14:10] <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
# [14:10] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibilitynonav
# [14:10] * oedipus dbaron, this is #html-wg not the #html-wg2 channel
# [14:10] <MichaelC> a second mode for this DOM
# [14:11] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
# [14:11] <MichaelC> things sent to the DOM but not rendered
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# [14:11] <MichaelC> 2 DOM modes, testing scariness
# [14:11] * dbaron sorry, we were trying to figure out how to get trackbot to work with both channels at once
# [14:11] * oedipus ok -- just wanted to make sure
# [14:11] <MichaelC> leads to questions like with iframe, do you go into that iframe or not?
# [14:11] * MichaelC trackbot isn't multichannel aware
# [14:12] <oedipus> ISSUE-74: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/74 Canvas Accessibility
# [14:12] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-74.
# [14:12] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [14:12] * MichaelC except it should know about this one...
# [14:12] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-074
# [14:12] * dbaron thinks #html-wg2 just stole it
# [14:13] <MichaelC> so need to work out what goes into the DOM
# [14:13] <MichaelC> can specify what goes in, or what doesn't go in
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# [14:14] <MichaelC> might want to look at tricky situations where a canvas object relates to a UI feature
# [14:14] <MichaelC> e.g., checkbox in <canvas>, is toggled by AT, should receive a click event
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# [14:14] <MichaelC> how do we handle event messaging in the shadow DOM?
# [14:14] <MichaelC> need to discuss, but need more people involved
# [14:14] <MichaelC> pc: what's path to addressing this?
# [14:15] <MichaelC> rs: file a bug about what HTML elements are allowed in the shadow DOM
# [14:15] <MichaelC> pc: what's the process?
# [14:15] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-074
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# [14:15] <MichaelC> rs: <scribe couldn't parse>
# [14:15] <MichaelC> pc, cs: file bugs?
# [14:16] <MichaelC> fo: need a bug, a change proposal ultimately needed
# [14:16] <MichaelC> need spec text (more than 3 lines) that describe how to address scenario
# [14:16] <MichaelC> cs: this is a sub-issue of the canvas issue
# [14:16] <MichaelC> pc: we've allready called for objections to ISSUE-74 and ISSUE-105
# [14:16] <MichaelC> rs: result?
# [14:16] <oedipus> ISSUE-74 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/74 Canvas Accessibility
# [14:16] <MichaelC> pc: not issued yet
# [14:17] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-74-and-105-objection-poll/
# [14:17] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-74-and-105-objection-poll/
# [14:17] <MichaelC> cs: assuming we accept shadow DOM, <something about options>
# [14:17] <MichaelC> <something about imagemap or nothing>
# [14:18] <MichaelC> rs: imagemap nice to have
# [14:18] <MichaelC> but not needed
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# [14:18] <MichaelC> cs: assuming we choose DOM over other two <interrupted/>
# [14:18] <MichaelC> rs: need to pick the options in the straw poll
# [14:19] <MichaelC> pc: which option before the WG is the "use the shadow DOM"
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# [14:19] <MichaelC> cs: it's the null change proposal, refine existing text
# [14:19] <MichaelC> cs: assume this will be the WG decision
# [14:19] <MichaelC> so question is how to refine that into the existing issues
# [14:19] <MichaelC> rs: what operates inside the DOM and what functionality from Canvas 2D to support magnification
# [14:20] <MichaelC> fo, cs: table that
# [14:20] * Parts: dbaron (dbaron@84.14.50.82) (8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [14:20] <MichaelC> cs: is this idea part of what has been surveyed?
# [14:20] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-74-and-105-objection-poll/results
# [14:20] <MichaelC> rs: nothing in the survey speaks to defining the limitations of the shadow DOM
# [14:20] <MichaelC> cs: meaning it would be a post-LC issue
# [14:21] <oedipus> this was definitely raised as an ISSUE before LC
# [14:21] <MichaelC> rs: arguably part of ISSUE-74
# [14:21] <MichaelC> cs: checks with Paul
# [14:21] <MichaelC> pc: don't know what chair decision would be
# [14:22] <MichaelC> rs: we should <scribe got distracted by private msg>
# [14:22] <MichaelC> pc: there are LC bugs we're processing in advance, so don't be too fussed about status of the bug
# [14:24] <oedipus> tracker, pointer
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# [14:24] <oedipus> tracbot, pointer
# [14:24] <oedipus> trackbot, pointer
# [14:24] <trackbot> Sorry, oedipus, I don't understand 'trackbot, pointer'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
# [14:24] * oedipus grrr...
# [14:24] <MichaelC> action: frank to file a bug about arriving at spec text that speaks to complexities of how DOM elements behave in the shadowl DOM beneath the canvas
# [14:24] * RRSAgent records action 14
# [14:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [14:24] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
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# [14:25] <MichaelC> fo: --- canvas with text entry ---
# [14:25] <MichaelC> options are 1) shouldn't do it
# [14:25] <MichaelC> 2) describe the multitudinous issues
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# [14:26] <MichaelC> 3) solve some of the problems but not completely
# [14:26] <MichaelC> think third option doesn't help users nor implementers
# [14:26] <MichaelC> and second is really hard
# [14:27] <oedipus> plus 1 to FO option 2 because people are already building RTEs with canvas (skywriter, lively project, etc.)
# [14:27] <MichaelC> rs: we could say no text entry, but can't deliver without addressing the issues
# [14:27] <MichaelC> someone will try it
# [14:27] <MichaelC> fo: who does it besides bespin?
# [14:27] <MichaelC> ds: people use canvas to be innovative
# [14:27] <oedipus> bespin is now skywriter -- there is also oracle's lively-project
# [14:27] * oedipus i'll put in URIs
# [14:28] <MichaelC> fo: which pushes us into describing the issues, a lot of work
# [14:28] <MichaelC> ds: can we just leave that to authors
# [14:28] <MichaelC> give them pointers, tools, apis?
# [14:28] <oedipus> http://labs.oracle.com/projects/lively/ and
# [14:28] <oedipus> https://bespin.mozillalabs.com/
# [14:28] <oedipus> RTEs that use canvas
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# [14:28] <MichaelC> fo: let's say shadow DOM interacting with screen reader and <something>
# [14:29] <MichaelC> pretty straightforward in basic case
# [14:29] <oedipus> correction, bespin has been rebranded "skywriter" http://mozillalabs.com/skywriter/
# [14:29] <MichaelC> with text entry, developer has to handle all kinds of events
# [14:29] <oedipus> however, https://bespin.mozillalabs.com/docs/ - still linked from skywriter pages
# [14:29] <MichaelC> ds: or hook into platform things
# [14:29] <MichaelC> fo: consider Japanese input, that has symbol prediction
# [14:29] <MichaelC> how would you tie that to canvas element
# [14:30] <MichaelC> or, consider spell check, form autocomplete,...
# [14:30] <MichaelC> these aren't even just a11y issues
# [14:30] <MichaelC> cs: in a standard control you'd have access to platform API in imperative manner
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# [14:30] <MichaelC> don't have that in script
# [14:30] <MichaelC> fo: this is all addressable, but not within current timeline in a good way
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# [14:31] <MichaelC> ds: maybe some of these aren't a11y specific
# [14:32] <MichaelC> mk: if shadow dom rich enough, can incentivize authors not to use script
# [14:33] <oedipus> plus 1 to martin
# [14:33] <MichaelC> fo: there are things you have to send to screen reader that you don't send to screen, e.g., cursor offset
# [14:34] <MichaelC> rs: there are some things we need to sync with UI anyway, such as spelling
# [14:34] <MichaelC> because they're part of HTML
# [14:34] <oedipus> canvas accessibility discussion at PFWG f2f 2010-01-01 (member-confidential) http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-pf-minutes.html#item08
# [14:35] <MichaelC> cs: that's native to HTML 5?
# [14:35] <MichaelC> rs: yes
# [14:35] <MichaelC> cs: it requires spelling and grammar checking in contenteditable?
# [14:35] <MichaelC> rs: yes
# [14:35] <MichaelC> fo: what do people think of the work load?
# [14:36] <MichaelC> rs: contenteditable functioanlity needs to be reflected
# [14:36] <MichaelC> and magnification (bug exists)
# [14:37] <MichaelC> cs: how much time to do this work?
# [14:37] <MichaelC> rs: API isn't the difficult part to spec
# [14:37] <MichaelC> finding limits is a big part of the problem
# [14:38] <MichaelC> and finding how to expose things like spelling
# [14:38] <MichaelC> can get caret info which helps sync
# [14:38] <MichaelC> fo: what info do you want to get re spelling/
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# [14:38] <MichaelC> rs: need existence and location in the subtree
# [14:38] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility
# [14:39] <MichaelC> cs: how much time to do this work?
# [14:39] <oedipus> avoiding redrawing focus ring: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0219.html
# [14:39] <MichaelC> rs: implementation a challenge
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# [14:39] <MichaelC> but 3 weeks to do spec
# [14:39] <MichaelC> maybe longer if need to find out what can be done with DOM subtree
# [14:40] <MichaelC> fo: <scribe distracted>
# [14:40] <MichaelC> cs: how long to spec to point your testers are happy?
# [14:40] <MichaelC> fo: don't think it can be done by last call deadline, that's implementable
# [14:41] <MichaelC> think we should look at post-LC vehicle to address these concerns
# [14:41] <MichaelC> also won't have implementers on board in time for LC
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# [14:41] <MichaelC> steps of getting spec text, getting agreement, etc., we're only at beginning of this process
# [14:42] <MichaelC> cs: can it be modularlized/
# [14:42] <MichaelC> q+
# [14:42] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [14:42] <MichaelC> rs: canvas 2d by april?
# [14:42] <MichaelC> pc: all documents on same scheudle
# [14:42] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/canvas-api/canvas-2d-api.html
# [14:43] <MichaelC> can find WG position
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# [14:43] <MichaelC> in email
# [14:43] <MichaelC> ack m
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# [14:44] <MichaelC> mc: we could put in "don't do text editing" for LC, and solve the problem during the LC period
# [14:44] <MichaelC> cs: or html.next
# [14:44] <eliot> Current canvas 2D spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-2dcontext-20101019/
# [14:44] <oedipus> bugs currently associated with HTML Issue 74: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7011 and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7404
# [14:44] <MichaelC> ds: message that you can do it but don't have support from us, on your own
# [14:44] <MichaelC> rs: will need caret, focus ring, select
# [14:45] <MichaelC> pc: canvas 2d context is in the set of documents going forward with html at LC
# [14:46] <MichaelC> ds: don't see how we can lock authors out of this design pattern
# [14:46] <MichaelC> cs: can write a WCAG failure
# [14:46] <MichaelC> fo: how would you solve?
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# [14:46] <MichaelC> ds: agree with you on difficulty and timeline
# [14:46] <MichaelC> cs: a WCAG failure is easy to do
# [14:47] <MichaelC> we could do a sample application to show how to use contenteditable + canvas to get something kinda good
# [14:47] <MichaelC> mk: concern that contenteditable div not performant enough
# [14:47] <oedipus> canvas-based rich text editor projects: skywriter (was bespin) http://mozillalabs.com/skywriter/ and lively http://labs.oracle.com/projects/lively/
# [14:47] <MichaelC> cs: but that's not our primary concern - just giving options
# [14:47] <MichaelC> (another is "use HTML")
# [14:47] <MichaelC> this could be a WCAG technique
# [14:48] <oedipus> authors shouldn't have to turn to WCAG in order to do canvas accessibly
# [14:48] <MichaelC> mc: are we deciding never to solve this, or to solve it later?
# [14:48] <MichaelC> and what do we do pre-LC
# [14:49] <MichaelC> fo: think we're commiting to solving, but after LC
# [14:49] <MichaelC> not sure what we do pre-LC
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# [14:49] <MichaelC> mc: so <interrupted>
# [14:50] <MichaelC> pc: we could ask in the LC status section what reviewer priority is on this issue
# [14:50] <MichaelC> can be hard to get WG to agree to this
# [14:50] <MichaelC> but I can just take over that section
# [14:51] <MichaelC> fo, cs: +1 (each)
# [14:51] <MichaelC> fo: that allows us to say "here are the problems we've identified"
# [14:51] <MichaelC> pc: have done this in situations where we weren't sure of appropriate direction
# [14:52] <MichaelC> cs: that could help set priority for when / whether to address post-LC
# [14:52] <MichaelC> pc: having a bug that clearly describes problem gives a hook for that
# [14:53] <MichaelC> in the status section
# [14:53] <MichaelC> <group looks for whether there's a bug>
# [14:54] <MichaelC> action: rich to file a bug about accessible rich text editing with canvas
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# [14:54] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [14:55] <MichaelC> pc: yesterday question of doing profile(s) of HTML 5 came up
# [14:56] <MichaelC> an HTML 5 environment with only script and canvas was a compelling idea
# [14:56] <MichaelC> and that's a use case for this text entry issue
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# [14:57] <MichaelC> connecting the dots....
# [14:57] <oedipus> timed track discussion 2010-11-04 http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item10
# [14:58] <oedipus> limited devices and profiles: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item11
# [14:58] <MichaelC> q+
# [14:58] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [14:58] <MichaelC> rs: <scribe missed, some sort of +1>
# [14:59] <MichaelC> mk: 1.5 years ago this came up at SXSW
# [14:59] <oedipus> q?
# [14:59] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [14:59] <kliehm> mk: "canvas is like having an APll
# [15:00] <kliehm> mk: Apple II in the browser"
# [15:00] <oedipus> shouldn't limit to WCAG -- should be in HTML5 spec
# [15:00] <kliehm> s/APll//
# [15:00] * oedipus rich has to leave at the top of the hour
# [15:01] <oedipus> post LC1 pre LC2
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# [15:02] * MichaelC proposed RESOLUTION: in LC version of spec, have a warning about using canvas for text entry, and create WCAG techniques and failures related to this
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# [15:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
# [15:02] <oedipus> minus 1 -- don't think should pass off to WCAG entirely -- canvas implementors will be looking at the 2d-canvas api
# [15:02] * MichaelC proposed RESOLUTION: work on a full solution to the text editing in canvas problem, and get into the spec at some future point
# [15:03] * MichaelC proposed RESOLUTION: in LC version of spec, have a warning about using canvas for text editing (absent a text field), and create WCAG techniques and failures related to this
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# [15:04] <MichaelC> sf: ask about caret etc.
# [15:05] <MichaelC> rs: not subject to the proposed resolutions
# [15:05] <MichaelC> pc: the formal decision hasn't been issued yet
# [15:05] <MichaelC> cs, rs: <something> didn't make it to the survey
# [15:05] <MichaelC> s/<something>/caret/
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# [15:05] <MichaelC> pc: but focus rectangle was surveyed
# [15:05] <MichaelC> ack me
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# [15:06] <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: in LC version of spec, have a warning about using canvas for text editing (absent a text field), and create WCAG techniques and failures related to this
# [15:06] <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: work on a full solution to the text editing in canvas problem, and get into the spec at some future point
# [15:06] <MichaelC> fo: --- drawFocusRing ---
# [15:06] <MichaelC> asks about current status
# [15:06] <MichaelC> rs: we originally included coordinates for the focus ring
# [15:07] <MichaelC> <something else>
# [15:07] <MichaelC> cs: will it pick up OS settings?
# [15:07] <MichaelC> rs: yes
# [15:07] <MichaelC> a couple threads still open on status
# [15:08] <MichaelC> cs: does the spec have everything it needs for focus?
# [15:08] <MichaelC> rs: no, caret and focus ring are confounded
# [15:08] <MichaelC> doesn't account for blink rate
# [15:08] <MichaelC> cs: bugs?
# [15:08] <MichaelC> rs: one bug with a proposal
# [15:09] <MichaelC> cs: we asked about a bug for caret; didn't ask for focus ring, may need one for that also
# [15:09] <MichaelC> rs: <looking>
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# [15:09] <MichaelC> no actual defect
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# [15:10] <MichaelC> action: Rich to file defects for features necessary for focus ring and magnification
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# [15:10] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
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# [15:11] <eliot> Current canvas 2d api spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-2dcontext-20101019/
# [15:11] <MichaelC> <confusion over different versions of canvas spec>
# [15:12] <Stevef> Provide accessibility information for driving screen magnifier tracking of focus rectangle and caret selection and to prevent blink rate seizures http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility
# [15:12] <MichaelC> action: Eliot to indicate that old editors' draft of canvas is out-dated and reference new one
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# [15:12] <MichaelC> fo: getcursorblinkrate should be tied to text entry, not focus management
# [15:13] <MichaelC> should include this in the text entry bug
# [15:13] <MichaelC> rs: along with grammar checking?
# [15:13] <MichaelC> fo: yes
# [15:14] <oedipus> note that SteveF said "Provide accessibility information for driving screen magnifier tracking of focus rectangle and caret selection and to prevent blink rate seizures http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility"
# [15:15] <MichaelC> fo: --- any other issues? ---
# [15:15] <MichaelC> ds: we haven't scraped bottom of barrel, but won't find all possible issues before LC
# [15:15] <MichaelC> mk: should we inventory examples of canvas uses to get ideas of issues?
# [15:16] <MichaelC> fo: IE team doesn't enumerate everything on the web, answer is always "enough to matter"
# [15:16] <MichaelC> there are three types of controls: <missed>
# [15:18] <MichaelC> s/<missed>/1) show info such as labels; 2) toggles for something simple, like checkboxes and single-selection lists; 3) text entry, with lots of complex nuances
# [15:19] <MichaelC> those are the basic building blocks of any UI, even when they add up to something complex
# [15:20] <MichaelC> mc: not convinced all can be reduced to that, but maybe
# [15:20] <MichaelC> mk: for user interaction, it can be reduced that far
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# [15:21] <MichaelC> fo: no matter how swanky / spiffy the control, it still boils down to those types of actions
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# [15:27] <oedipus> developer should get info from 2D-canvas-api portion directly, not be pointed to WCAG
# [15:28] <oedipus> paulc, according to the agenda, the DRM session has been cancelled
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# [15:29] * oedipus mmmmmm..... fermented yougurt
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# [15:31] * oedipus like the geeze used to say "they always tell you it will be perfected in 6 months"
# [15:34] <oedipus> are we officially on break?
# [15:34] <oedipus> resuming at top of hour?
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# [15:37] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)13:00Z has ended
# [15:37] <Zakim> Attendees were
# [15:37] <oedipus> thanks to all the scribes!
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# [16:09] <paulc> test
# [16:09] <paulc> Topic: Applicable specifications
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# [16:12] <Julian> topic: applicable specs
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# [16:13] <adrianba> ISSUE-140?
# [16:13] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-140
# [16:13] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [16:14] <anne> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9178
# [16:14] <paulc> Bug 9178?
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# [16:14] <anne> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
# [16:14] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg2...
# [16:14] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [16:14] <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
# [16:14] <noahm> ISSUE-140: clarify the applicability of the term "conforming document" in cases where "applicable specifications" had been used to augment or change the base HTML5 specification
# [16:14] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-140.
# [16:14] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [16:14] <dbaron> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
# [16:14] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg2...
# [16:14] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
# [16:14] <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
# [16:15] <dbaron> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg
# [16:15] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg...
# [16:15] <MichaelC> trackbot, int
# [16:15] <trackbot> Sorry, MichaelC, I don't understand 'trackbot, int'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
# [16:15] <MichaelC> trackbot, init
# [16:15] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#extensibility
# [16:15] <anne> ISSUE-140
# [16:15] <anne> ISSUE-140?
# [16:15] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-140
# [16:15] <trackbot> ISSUE-140 -- clarify the applicability of the term "conforming document" in cases where "applicable specifications" had been used to augment or change the base HTML5 specification -- raised
# [16:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/140
# [16:15] <hsivonen> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#other-applicable-specifications
# [16:18] <hsivonen> q+
# [16:18] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:18] <paulc> Noah: I raised the bug under ISSUE-140.
# [16:18] <paulc> scribenick: paulc
# [16:19] <paulc> Noah: My concern is about conformance terminology.
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# [16:19] <paulc> Noah: Let's say I have an HTML document that does not use any extensions. The HTML5 spec says what is conforming.
# [16:20] <paulc> Noah: Let's say someone else writes an "applicable spec" that is incompatible since it changes what is required.
# [16:20] <hsivonen> The "Preset" menu on http://validator.nu/ is relevant
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# [16:21] <mjs> q+
# [16:21] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
# [16:21] <paulc> Noah: I am asking that if a document that is only conforming if there is an "applicable specification" then I should have to say this when I give you the document.
# [16:22] <adrianba> q?
# [16:22] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
# [16:22] <paulc> ack hsivonen
# [16:22] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [16:22] <dbaron> q+
# [16:22] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [16:23] <noahm> q+ to ask Henri: it's great that the validator does this, but where does the spec requires this
# [16:23] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron, noahm on the speaker queue
# [16:23] <paulc> henri: I agree with what Noah says. If you look at validator.new its configuration file controls what applicable specs apply during validation.
# [16:23] <noahm> Does the spec require what the validator does?
# [16:23] <dbaron> s/validator.new/validator.nu/
# [16:23] <paulc> @dbaron: thanks
# [16:23] <sicking> q+
# [16:23] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron, noahm, sicking on the speaker queue
# [16:24] <paulc> henri: Since ARIA is included then that case could be changed.
# [16:24] <noahm> I'm happy for you to deal explicitly with a handful of edge cases like SVG and Aria as you see fit.
# [16:24] <noahm> I'm just suggesting that the HTML5 spec should be unambiguous: you can't say "my doc conforms to HTML5" if it actually requires extensions to conform
# [16:25] <paulc> henri: the html5 does not give the SVG validation rules so you need to tell the validator what SVG to use.
# [16:26] <shepazu> the SVG WG would be happy to help review any tests that involve SVG
# [16:26] <paulc> Noah: I want to spec to require what Henri described how the validator.nu work.
# [16:26] <paulc> q?
# [16:26] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron, noahm, sicking on the speaker queue
# [16:26] <hsivonen> q+
# [16:26] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron, noahm, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:26] <paulc> ack maciej
# [16:26] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron, noahm, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:26] <paulc> ack mjs
# [16:26] * Zakim sees dbaron, noahm, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:27] * Joins: gavin__ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
# [16:27] <paulc> Maciej: I want to mention scope of applicable specification clause.
# [16:27] <paulc> Maciej: you can add elements to make them conforming but you cannot change existing elements.
# [16:27] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
# [16:28] * Julian objects to "random junk" in the spec
# [16:31] <paulc> Maciej: I retract my statement but this is different than it used to be.
# [16:31] <paulc> Ack dbaron
# [16:31] * Zakim sees noahm, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:31] <paulc> DBaron: Restating: Noah wants "conforming HTML5 document" and then some other phrase when an "applicable spec" is involved.
# [16:32] <anne> q?
# [16:32] * Zakim sees noahm, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:32] <paulc> ack noahm
# [16:32] <Zakim> noahm, you wanted to ask Henri: it's great that the validator does this, but where does the spec requires this
# [16:32] * Zakim sees sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:32] <Julian> q+
# [16:32] * Zakim sees sicking, hsivonen, Julian on the speaker queue
# [16:32] <paulc> ack sicking
# [16:32] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Julian on the speaker queue
# [16:33] <paulc> If it contains ARIA is if "conforming HTML5 document"?
# [16:33] <paulc> Noah: depends on what the spec says. Just say it clearly in the spec.
# [16:34] <paulc> Should we move the sentence:
# [16:34] * Quits: janina (janina@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [16:34] <paulc> As far as conformance goes, what matters in a particular community is what that community agrees is applicable.
# [16:34] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28) (Quit: kennyluck)
# [16:35] * Parts: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@99.39.114.91)
# [16:35] <paulc> ack hs
# [16:35] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
# [16:35] * Joins: Bert (bbos@mcclure.w3.org)
# [16:36] <paulc> Henri: The A.S. clause is trying to say in words what the validator.nu has been doing in practise.
# [16:36] <noahm> NM: My main priority is that I want the term "conforming HTML5 document" to be defined as referring only to the unextended specification.
# [16:36] <paulc> q+
# [16:36] * Zakim sees Julian, paulc on the speaker queue
# [16:36] <adrianba> +1 to what henri says - it wouldn't hurt to make it explicit in the spec instead of implicit
# [16:36] <noahm> NM: I am somewhat flexible as to what terminology would be used for documents that conform only to the extended specifications.
# [16:37] <paulc> Henri: If you invoke the A.S clause then your statement should say something different than if you did not.
# [16:37] <noahm> As best I can tell, I am in complete agreement with Henri, and I note that I have no strong concern as to how ARIA, MathML or SVG is treated, as long is it's clear one way or the other.
# [16:38] <paulc> Henri: This agrees with Noah's ask.
# [16:38] <paulc> henri: Do we need a more formal way of negotiating this.
# [16:38] <noahm> I don't agree that moving the last sentence of the note to be normative achieves the goal.
# [16:38] <paulc> ack Julian
# [16:38] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [16:39] <paulc> Julian: The spec needs to be clearer about what a conforming document is ie about SVG, MathML or ARIA are in or out.
# [16:39] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@128.30.52.28)
# [16:40] <noahm> I think the right way to do it is adding to the definition of conforming document something like: "the term 'conforming document' applies only to documents that conform to this specification in the absence of additional applicable specification extensions".
# [16:40] <hsivonen> q+
# [16:40] * Zakim sees paulc, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:40] <paulc> Julian: We should ahve a term for a document that conforms to HTML5 spec + SVG + Mathml
# [16:40] <paulc> ack paulc
# [16:40] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:40] <noahm> I also think the "vendor neutral" term is sort of goofy, but decided not to fight that battle if you all are happy.
# [16:40] <mjs> q+
# [16:40] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
# [16:41] <mjs> q-
# [16:41] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:41] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [16:42] <noahm> q+ to talk about media types
# [16:42] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noahm on the speaker queue
# [16:43] <paulc> paulc: How do I know what A.S are being used when I receive a HTML5 resource.
# [16:43] * anne wonders if he should point that app. specs. goes beyond validation
# [16:43] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Quit: Leaving)
# [16:43] * noahm right, anne
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# [16:44] <Julian> q+
# [16:44] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noahm, Julian on the speaker queue
# [16:45] * kennyluck RRSAgent, make minutes
# [16:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kennyluck
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# [16:47] <paulc> ack hsi
# [16:47] * Zakim sees noahm, Julian on the speaker queue
# [16:48] <paulc> henri: the situation is similar for "some version of xml" (search for this)
# [16:49] <paulc> paulc: this leaves an extension point in the spec
# [16:50] <paulc> henri: this is the why spec does not give a fixed normative reference to the A.S.
# [16:50] * Quits: igarashi (igarashi@84.14.50.82) (Quit: igarashi)
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# [16:51] <paulc> paulc: this is like have a forward looking normative reference (not dated) in the reference section.
# [16:51] * Quits: mgylling (mgylling@83.251.132.242) (Quit: mgylling)
# [16:52] <paulc> ack noahm
# [16:52] <Zakim> noahm, you wanted to talk about media types
# [16:52] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
# [16:53] <sicking> q+
# [16:53] * Zakim sees Julian, sicking on the speaker queue
# [16:54] <hsivonen> q+
# [16:54] * Zakim sees Julian, sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
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# [16:56] <paulc> ack julian
# [16:56] * Zakim sees sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:56] <adrianba> q?
# [16:56] * Zakim sees sicking, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [16:56] * Quits: noahm (noah_mende@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [16:57] <paulc> Julian: The validator case henri mentioned is really important.
# [16:58] * Quits: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [16:58] <paulc> Julian: But others out there use the phrase "conforming HTML5" documents to mean something different and pre-determined.
# [16:58] <paulc> Julian: We need something in the spec that describes some of the case described by validator.nu
# [16:58] <paulc> ack sicking
# [16:58] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
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# [17:01] * Parts: wonsuk (wslee@84.14.50.82)
# [17:01] <anne> q+
# [17:01] * Zakim sees hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [17:02] * Quits: seungjae (seungjae@84.14.50.82) (Quit: #mediaann)
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# [17:04] <Julian> q+
# [17:04] * Zakim sees hsivonen, anne, Julian on the speaker queue
# [17:04] <anne> the additional bit we add is that conformance depends on who you ask
# [17:04] * Quits: freedom (freedom@84.14.50.82) (Quit: freedom)
# [17:04] <Julian> q-
# [17:04] * Zakim sees hsivonen, anne on the speaker queue
# [17:04] <anne> some will accept microdata as app. spec., some won't
# [17:04] <paulc> ack hs
# [17:04] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
# [17:05] <sicking> My proposed new text:
# [17:05] <sicking> When vendor-neutral extensions to this specification are needed, either this specification can be updated accordingly, or an extension specification can be written that overrides the requirements in this specification. When a community applying this specification to their activities explicitly agrees that they will recognize the requirements of such an extension specification, it becomes an...
# [17:05] <sicking> ...applicable specification for the purposes of conformance requirements in this specification. As far as conformance goes, what matters in a particular community is what that community explicitly agrees is applicable.
# [17:05] <sicking> (green) Note: Someone could write a specification that defines any arbitrary byte stream as conforming, and then claim that their random white noise is conforming. However, that does not mean that their random junk actually is conforming for everyone's purposes: if someone else has not explicitly agreed that that specification does not apply, then the byte stream is not conforming to them,...
# [17:05] <sicking> ...and is just random white noise.
# [17:05] <paulc> q+
# [17:05] * Zakim sees anne, paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:05] <anne> you should write a CP
# [17:05] <Julian> s/vendor-neutral//
# [17:06] <noah> From RFC 2616L
# [17:06] <noah> When an entity-body is included with a message, the data type of that
# [17:06] <noah> body is determined via the header fields Content-Type and Content-
# [17:06] <noah> Encoding. These define a two-layer, ordered encoding model:
# [17:06] <noah> entity-body := Content-Encoding( Content-Type( data ) )
# [17:06] <noah> Content-Type specifies the media type of the underlying data.
# [17:06] <noah> Content-Encoding may be used to indicate any additional content
# [17:06] <noah> codings applied to the data, usually for the purpose of data
# [17:06] <noah> compression, that are a property of the requested resource. There is
# [17:06] <noah> no default encoding.
# [17:06] <noah> This says nothing about processing.
# [17:06] <noah> So, I respectfully disagree with Henri's reading of the definition of Content-type.
# [17:06] <noah> The word processing doesn't occur.
# [17:06] * Julian sorry, shouldn't have uses s//
# [17:06] <noah> q?
# [17:06] * Zakim sees anne, paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:06] <noah> q+ to look at RFC 2616
# [17:06] * Zakim sees anne, paulc, noah on the speaker queue
# [17:06] <anne> s/extensions/vendor-neutral extensions/
# [17:07] <anne> ftfy
# [17:07] <anne> noah, it does not quite align with the vision you can send HTML as text/plain to display it as raw text though
# [17:07] <anne> noah, cause what that is saying is that it is no longer HTML, or am I missing something?
# [17:08] <Julian> (I believe we should stay away from the term "vendor-neutral"; it's not helpful here)
# [17:08] <anne> (it is, because vendor-specific extensions are to be done differently)
# [17:08] <noah> Content-type is NOT about code paths. It is just a statement about the interpretation that the Server intends to be applied to the bits.
# [17:08] <anne> interpretation is a code path no?
# [17:08] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Ping timeout)
# [17:08] <noah> I strongly urge that you ground this discussion in RFC 2616, not in other assertions of what Content-type is.
# [17:08] <anne> text/plain -> go here, text/html -> go there
# [17:08] <noah> q?
# [17:08] * Zakim sees anne, paulc, noah on the speaker queue
# [17:09] <anne> q-
# [17:09] * Zakim sees paulc, noah on the speaker queue
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# [17:09] <oedipus> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt
# [17:09] <noah> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.17
# [17:11] <adrianba> q?
# [17:11] * Zakim sees paulc, noah on the speaker queue
# [17:13] <hsivonen> q+
# [17:13] * Zakim sees paulc, noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:15] <paulc> ack paulc
# [17:15] * Zakim sees noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:17] * Quits: adam (Adium@84.14.50.82) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [17:19] <paulc> topic:
# [17:19] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Ping timeout)
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# [17:19] <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
# [17:20] <dbaron> Topic: , , etc.
# [17:20] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@84.14.50.82)
# [17:21] <dbaron> hsivonen: There's a wide range of how semantic presentational formats can be. A PNG gives you a bitmap; a PDF gives an exact bitmap with a bit more abstraction around resolution.
# [17:21] <dbaron> hsivonen: Then there's HTML, and DocBook that has a lot more that doesn't describe presentation but instead describes the role of stuff in the document.
# [17:21] <dbaron> hsivonen: And there's TEI (?) that tries to describe roles even more precisely in terms of semantics.
# [17:21] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [17:21] <noahm> Julian (and others): if you're interested in the proper registration of the Content-type, then in addition to RFC 2616 and pertinent IANA stuff, you might want to read the TAG's Finding "The Self-Describing Web". http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments.html
# [17:22] <dbaron> hsivonen: When HTML started, there were some elements for marking up stuff inside a paragraph, e.g., to be italic or underlined, and this seemed to be closer to the presentational end of the spectrum than to the semantic end of the spectrum.
# [17:22] * Julian prefers to read httpbis Part 3 instead of 2616
# [17:22] <dbaron> hsivonen: There was a belief that being more semantic was better because it allows repurposing the content in different ways.
# [17:22] <dbaron> hsivonen: The assumption was that more semantic was better, and presentational was worse.
# [17:23] <dbaron> hsivonen: Here I am making an inference from what I see in old HTML drafts; I wasn't there.
# [17:23] <dbaron> hsivonen: First there existed , and then since it was seen as presentational and presentational was worse than semantic, a bunch of other elements were created for different use cases, e.g., , <var>, <cite>.
# [17:24] <dbaron> hsivonen: In practice, as implemented in browsers, and even as implemented for accessibility purposes (at least as far as Raman said on the list sometime), these are for all purposes in practice synonyms for italics.
# [17:24] * Joins: r12a (ishida@128.30.52.28)
# [17:24] <dbaron> hsivonen: There isn't much software that makes good use of these semantics beyond the thing that sets this thing apart from its environment in terms of style.
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# [17:25] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [17:25] <dbaron> hsivonen: The concept that presentational is worse than semantic has been advocated over the past decade, a lot.
# [17:25] <dbaron> hsivonen: It's hard to take the position that, ok, we didn't mean that, and presentational is now ok.
# [17:25] <MichaelC> q+
# [17:25] * Zakim sees noah, hsivonen, MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [17:25] <MichaelC> q- n
# [17:25] * Zakim sees hsivonen, MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [17:25] <MichaelC> ack h
# [17:25] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [17:25] <dbaron> hsivonen: But we see that these elements that are called presentational within a paragraph are still being used, so we can't say they'd be non-conforming, which would be silly from a practical point of view.
# [17:26] <dbaron> hsivonen: The approach HTML5 adapts is that some of these old presentational elements are given semantic fig leaves that give us a way to pretend they are semantic without changing in any way the way software handles them.
# [17:26] <MichaelC> q+ to say that semantic elements, while presented a certain way in mainstream browsers, still have different meanings that are used in transformations, custom styling, AT, etc.
# [17:26] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [17:26] <dbaron> hsivonen: It's a way of saving face that allows us to keep them conforming so nobody is inconvenienced but we keep the semantic better than presentational doctrine.
# [17:26] <dbaron> hsivonen: The element has been made conforming in HTML5 by giving it a semantic fig leaf, but the element has not, and is nonconforming.
# [17:27] <oedipus> they are "italicized" by a screen reader in response to the markup -- a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics -- if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as...
# [17:27] <dbaron> hsivonen: They are similar in nature: both used for applying formatting inside a paragraph in the way that normal people think about formatting.
# [17:27] <oedipus> ...italics as simply italics -- there are semantics behind cite, var, em
# [17:27] <dbaron> hsivonen: ...
# [17:27] <oedipus> hsivonen, re accessibility and italics please see my IRC comments above
# [17:27] <dbaron> hsivonen: If we have but don't have , that's kind of arbitrary. kennyluck filed a bug saying that in chinese you underline certain things. That bug was closed saying that the semantic is already covered by this other stuff, so we don't need the element.
# [17:28] <dbaron> hsivonen: However, the element exists already, and does this thing that is easy for authors to think about, instead of having to express "I want to express a proper noun" and then say it's underlined.
# [17:29] <dbaron> hsivonen: You can style the element in CSS to make it underlined, but it's not reasonable to tell a Chinese author to, instead of using the that works they must use an and restyle it.
# [17:29] <MichaelC> q+ to say I agree many people author according to visual style with implied semantics, but that shouldn't stop us from providing and encouraging the semantic layer
# [17:29] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [17:29] <dbaron> hsivonen: Flipping it around for a European author would feel unreasonable (and saying to use for italics).
# [17:29] <dbaron> hsivonen: It seems it doesn't help the most people to say that these old presentational inline elements are invalid when they are interoperably implemented, and the casual user thinks in terms of wanting this stuff to be italic, bold, underlined, etc.
# [17:30] * Julian notes that if we want to discuss we need to stop Henri
# [17:30] <oedipus> q+ a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics--if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as italics as simply italics--there are semantics behind cite, var, em
# [17:30] * Zakim oedipus, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [17:30] <dbaron> hsivonen: There's a counter-argument: if you're translating from Chinese to English or vice-versa, then you need to change the element as part of the translation process, and it would be semantically proper to not have to change the elements when you change the text.
# [17:30] <oedipus> q+ to say a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics--if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as italics as simply italics--there are semantics behind cite, var, em
# [17:30] * Zakim sees MichaelC, oedipus on the speaker queue
# [17:30] <dbaron> hsivonen: But if you have ruby in Japanese and you translate to English, you need to change the ruby.
# [17:30] <dbaron> hsivonen: So this is my argument that these things should be valid. exists and is interoperably implemented.
# [17:31] <dbaron> hsivonen: When we have these inline elements, we can do accessibility and non-CSS processing on the content; if we have spans and CSS then we need CSS computed style to do the same processing.
# [17:31] <dbaron> hsivonen: I'm not arguing for adding any new of these inline elements, but since they exist, have use cases, are easy to understand, and already work, we should say it's ok to use them and we don't need to pretend they don't exist.
# [17:32] <anne> q?
# [17:32] * Zakim sees MichaelC, oedipus on the speaker queue
# [17:32] <MichaelC> ack me
# [17:32] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say that semantic elements, while presented a certain way in mainstream browsers, still have different meanings that are used in transformations, custom
# [17:32] <Zakim> ... styling, AT, etc. and to say I agree many people author according to visual style with implied semantics, but that shouldn't stop us from providing and encouraging the semantic
# [17:32] <Zakim> ... layer
# [17:32] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
# [17:32] <dbaron> MichaelC: I agree with some (> 50%) of what you said.
# [17:32] <dbaron> MichaelC: 70-ish
# [17:32] <dbaron> MichaelC: A couple points that didn't sit well with me:
# [17:32] * Joins: gfreed (geoff_free@98.110.182.242)
# [17:33] <dbaron> MichaelC: (1) You talk about how all of these semantic elements are presented the same way; there are some that are handled differently by some software.
# [17:33] * Joins: cyns (540e3252@128.30.52.43)
# [17:33] <dbaron> hsivonen: Which software?
# [17:33] <dbaron> MichaelC: I could take an action to provide list later.
# [17:33] * anne wants to know too
# [17:33] <dbaron> MichaelC: There are bigger use cases for semantic elements than I thought you acknowledge.
# [17:33] <hsivonen> q+
# [17:33] * Zakim sees oedipus, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:34] <dbaron> MichaelC: I agree that people author according to visual style. I want to find a way to get authors who author visually to end up with semantic content.
# [17:34] <dbaron> MichaelC: But I think we need to end up with the semantic content available and encourage them to end up with it.
# [17:34] * Parts: gfreed (geoff_free@98.110.182.242)
# [17:34] <dbaron> MichaelC: Those were just a couple addition points I wanted to give.
# [17:35] <dbaron> cynthia: I agree the inconsistency of and ; I'd want consistency. My preference would to deprecate them in favor of more semantic elements or where there are no semantics.
# [17:35] * oedipus i'll put comments into IRC as i'm not there
# [17:35] <oedipus> q?
# [17:35] * Zakim sees oedipus, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:35] <dbaron> hsivonen: Isn't span worse for accessibility? Doesn't that then require figuring out more?
# [17:35] <dbaron> cynthia: I see and as equivalent.
# [17:35] <dbaron> cynthia: The element says it's italic but not why; the AT can tell you it's italic.
# [17:35] <oedipus> just because something is rendered as italics visually, does not mean that it should be identified as italics by a screen reader or other AT, but should be triggers for voice characteristics changes so 1 can tell something emphasized from something cited
# [17:35] <dbaron> anne: The AT can tell you it's italic==different.
# [17:36] <oedipus> q?
# [17:36] * Zakim sees oedipus, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:36] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Ping timeout)
# [17:36] <dbaron> maciej: Editing tools can (1) add and style (2) insert (3) insert ; seems the least bad of these three.
# [17:36] <dbaron> cynthia: I agree having these inconsistent is strange.
# [17:36] <dbaron> hsivonen: I care less about than .
# [17:36] <r12a> q+
# [17:36] * Zakim sees oedipus, hsivonen, r12a on the speaker queue
# [17:37] <dbaron> cynthia: The semantic issue: I don't think is much better than ; I think the foreign language case may be useful to know that it's italic because it's French or because it's a proper name.
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-phrase-block-list/#phrase
# [17:37] * Julian has an anecdote about a ST:TNG episode where the Borg's name "Hugh" was translated into "Du" in German
# [17:37] <dbaron> hsivonen: The foreign-language semantic is in the lang attribute.
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> -> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-phrase-block-list/#phrase Opera MAMA report on Phrase elements
# [17:37] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.135) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [17:38] * MichaelC kinda appropriate to the story perhaps...
# [17:38] <dbaron> hsivonen: Going back to what maciej said: Dreamweaver... says in WAI guidelines that things are more accessible if "italic" command is bound to and "bold" bound to ; this is now implemented in Dreamweaver, Wordpress, so now you can't infer semantics from or because the author just made the "make this italic" gesture.
# [17:38] <MikeSmith> the element is used as often as in existing content
# [17:38] <dbaron> hsivonen: You can no longer infer a difference from and for accessibility from random Web content.
# [17:39] * MichaelC (because he was humanized and personalized)
# [17:39] <dbaron> hsivonen: ... because all these content-generating tools have been generating for this UI gesture.
# [17:39] <oedipus> hsivonen, yes you can -- if you set one voice characteristic for and another for there IS a difference
# [17:39] <fantasai> Zakim, q+
# [17:39] <Zakim> I see oedipus, hsivonen, r12a, fantasai on the speaker queue
# [17:39] <dbaron> cynthia: I don't think is a good solution to providing a solution for why it's italic.
# [17:39] <dbaron> cynthia: I'd like to see the UI ask you why it's italic.
# [17:40] * kennyluck +1 for hsivonen's point for accessibility
# [17:40] <dbaron> maciej: I think a prompt after the "italic" command is a non-starter for usability.
# [17:40] <dbaron> cynthia: That doesn't mean the right solution is to replace with .
# [17:40] <oedipus> minus 1000 for hsivonen's point on a11y
# [17:40] <oedipus> it is easier to un-italicize content styled with CSS than it is to undo a hard-coded
# [17:40] <oedipus> make that
# [17:40] <dbaron> hsivonen: I'm not suggesting that. I'm not saying that people shouldn't mark up foreign languages with the lang attribute. I'm just saying the , , and probably should be conforming; people who want to add more semantics should still be able to do that.
# [17:41] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.135)
# [17:41] <dbaron> hsivonen: Instead of us prescribing the one way to do that, we should allow the other.
# [17:41] <dbaron> cynthia: I'd tend to agree with you for and ; I think not used much in the wild.
# [17:41] <dbaron> MikeSmith: Take a look at the data I put in IRC.
# [17:41] <anne> oedipus, if it is easy to set a voice you can just set the same voice as for normal content so I'm not sure your -1000 applies
# [17:41] <dbaron> MikeSmith: used more than , <abbr>, ..., combined.
# [17:41] <dbaron> [repeating of data in link]
# [17:41] * Joins: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250)
# [17:42] <dbaron> cynthia: As far as outcome, I think we're not far apart, but I think we largely agree on what to do.
# [17:42] <dbaron> cynthia: I put the bug in but didn't escalate it.
# [17:42] <oedipus> anne, hsivonen, kennyluck, just because something is rendered as italics visually, does not mean that it should be identified as italics by a screen reader or other AT, but should be triggers for voice characteristics changes so 1 can tell something emphasized from something cited
# [17:42] <dbaron> MichaelC: I think the use cases you're asking for are, I think, more important than you think.
# [17:43] <dbaron> MichaelC: I think we could treat ... as WCAG as conformance errors / ???, but I don't think that will be universally accepted in a11y community.
# [17:43] <mjs> oedipus: would you like to type your comments into IRC?
# [17:43] <r12a> q?
# [17:43] * Zakim sees oedipus, hsivonen, r12a, fantasai on the speaker queue
# [17:43] <dbaron> hsivonen: I don't notice gregory citing any particular software products.
# [17:43] <mjs> ack oedipus
# [17:43] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics--if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything
# [17:43] <dbaron> MichaelC: He uses JAWS.
# [17:43] <Zakim> ... rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as
# [17:43] <Zakim> ... italics as simply italics--there are semantics behind cite, var, em
# [17:43] <dbaron> hsivonen: Does it render them differently by default?
# [17:43] * Zakim sees hsivonen, r12a, fantasai on the speaker queue
# [17:43] <oedipus> and NVDA and Orca
# [17:44] <dbaron> MichaelC: Not sure default is that important.
# [17:44] <dbaron> cynthia: Highly configurable.
# [17:44] <oedipus> by default, everything is vanilla
# [17:44] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.135) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [17:44] <oedipus> the user chooses what voice characteristics to change
# [17:44] <dbaron> [mjs reads comments from oedipus above]
# [17:44] * oedipus thanks mjs
# [17:45] <oedipus> out-of-the-box everything is vanilla -- the user has to choose an overlay or tweak the settings herself
# [17:45] <mjs> oedipus, let us know when you are done please so I can stop reading
# [17:45] <dbaron> cynthia: Point of clarification: Do users typically choose an overlay, and do the common overlays include different voices for the different semantics?
# [17:45] <oedipus> for example, JAWS has "internet rent a crowd" which assigns different voices and voice characteristics to what JAWS can pick up from the DOM
# [17:46] <hsivonen> oedipus, so if and are different for you, how do you know whether the user had an authoring tool that bound to the "italicize" command?
# [17:46] <oedipus> overlays include different voices for different semantics -- it is up to the user -- some users like multiple voices, others prefer one voice with pitch changes or an earcon (to indicate heading level, for exammple)
# [17:46] <cyns> q+
# [17:46] * Zakim sees hsivonen, r12a, fantasai, cyns on the speaker queue
# [17:46] <dbaron> fantasai: I don't know about assitive technology, but I know book titles are rendered differently from emphasis in Chinese, so for someone who's writing in Chinese, it wouldn't make them to use or for these use cases. If they wanted to they could use the semantic elements and insert punctuation with generated content, or insert the punctuation themselves directly. But they are sometimes styled differently.
# [17:47] <dbaron> hsivonen: I wasn't suggesting taking <cite> away from authors. But as much as we say it's valid for Chinese authors to use puntuation directly in content, it's valid for authors to use the element.
# [17:47] <dbaron> [mjs reads responses from oedipus]
# [17:47] <oedipus> hsivonen, if i have set to trigger a voice characteristics change, it won't do anything for -- UNLESS i set a global "everything that is in italics no matter why should be expressed as italics" setting (such things exist)
# [17:48] <Julian> q+
# [17:48] * Zakim sees hsivonen, r12a, fantasai, cyns, Julian on the speaker queue
# [17:48] <mjs> thanks, oedipus, moving on with the queue now
# [17:48] <mjs> ack hsivonen
# [17:48] * Zakim sees r12a, fantasai, cyns, Julian on the speaker queue
# [17:48] <mjs> q+
# [17:48] * Zakim sees r12a, fantasai, cyns, Julian, mjs on the speaker queue
# [17:48] * oedipus thanks mjs for letting me make my point
# [17:49] <dbaron> hsivonen: I can see the point that Gregory can configure the AT, but logically there isn't any quality signal in the difference between and when some tools bind the italic-command to , so being able to style them differently in your user-stylesheet-equivalent mechanism doesn't tell you much.
# [17:49] * fantasai thinks we should file bugs on those software and update whatever guidelines recommend such a broken practice
# [17:49] <mjs> ack r12a
# [17:49] * Zakim sees fantasai, cyns, Julian, mjs on the speaker queue
# [17:49] <dbaron> hsivonen: Doesn't tell you anything about author's intent beyond that they pressed Cmd+I in Dreamweaver or another application.
# [17:49] <oedipus> hsivonen, i have different voice characteristics settings for than anything that appears in a string encased in " ... "
# [17:49] <dbaron> r12a: Two comments:
# [17:49] <hsivonen> q+
# [17:49] * Zakim sees fantasai, cyns, Julian, mjs, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:50] <kennyluck> q+
# [17:50] * Zakim sees fantasai, cyns, Julian, mjs, hsivonen, kennyluck on the speaker queue
# [17:50] <oedipus> s/settings for /settings for <q>
# [17:50] <dbaron> r12a: First is parenthetic: in Dreamweaver I think you have to set an option to make it use instead of . What follows on from that is that I actually chose to do that, and I might later choose not to do that, and I actually do use to mean emphasis and I'm careful about how I write my code.
# [17:50] <dbaron> r12a: In the wide world you might not be able to rely on authors to do the right thing all the time.
# [17:50] <oedipus> hsivonen, so if i encounter something using a quote character it is spoken differently than if it were encased in a quote tag
# [17:51] <dbaron> hsivonen: But the reader doesn't know if the document came from you. But it's useful from you for your CSS purposes. I think it's good for you to hedge your own authoring practice against your own future styling changes. I think CSS is now popular enough that we don't need to make these elements nonconforming to market CSS.
# [17:51] <dbaron> hsivonen: It doesn't follow that we should say to those authors who don't want to in advance prepare themselves against their future styling changes is nonconforming.
# [17:51] <dbaron> r12a: I agree; just saying some people will do it right and some won't.
# [17:52] <dbaron> r12a: (2) The main thing I wanted to say is that, I think, the main question is whether we deprecate and .
# [17:52] <dbaron> hsivonen: Right now different status for different elements.
# [17:52] <anne> <a>!
# [17:52] <dbaron> r12a: There's i/em and b/strong pairs; what's the semantic equivalent of strong?
# [17:53] <mjs> ack fantasai
# [17:53] * Zakim sees cyns, Julian, mjs, hsivonen, kennyluck on the speaker queue
# [17:53] <dbaron> hsivonen: <ins> for American lawyer case; nothing for Chinese proper noun case.
# [17:53] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [17:53] <anne> s/of strong/of u/
# [17:53] <dbaron> fantasai: My understanding of the HTML spec is that no longer means italics; it means this bit of text is set apart from the surrounding text in a presentationally-distinguished way. It could be by italics or by something else.
# [17:54] <dbaron> fantasai: I don't see how that definition is any different from what's being proposed for : same definition but different default style.
# [17:54] <dbaron> maciej: Traditionally underlines and italics are used for default things.
# [17:54] <oedipus> hsivonen, and are set to produce different voice characteristics because i set them to do so -- either way, i get the message that this string of text is set apart from the other for a specific reason
# [17:54] <dbaron> s/default/different/
# [17:54] <dbaron> hsivonen: You have three ways to set text apart from surrounding text (and they also make things different from each other).
# [17:54] * Quits: jun (jun@84.14.50.82) (Quit: jun)
# [17:54] * Joins: noah (noah_mende@93.158.28.136)
# [17:55] <dbaron> hsivonen: But in practice people think in terms of italic, bold, and underline. I sidestepped what the semantics should be; I think we should allow this.
# [17:55] <dbaron> kennyluck: I raised this bug. I discussed this with Chinese friend; think might be a solution.
# [17:55] <hsivonen> http://www.helsinki.fi/~rkosken/kirjallisuus/pukuhistoria.html page created in Dreamweaver and edited in another version of Dreamweaver after upgrading
# [17:55] <dbaron> kennyluck: I'm not saying I have a strong opinion but I want to know which element I should use to style ???, or should I just use a ?
# [17:56] <mjs> ack cyns
# [17:56] * Zakim sees Julian, mjs, hsivonen, kennyluck on the speaker queue
# [17:56] <kennyluck> s/???/proper noun/
# [17:56] <fantasai> kennyluck, read the definitions of and in the HTML5 spec
# [17:56] <dbaron> cynthia: If the reason for keeping these is ???, that seems like a valid reason to me. Inconsistency also seems bad.
# [17:56] <fantasai> kennyluck, they mean sligtly different things
# [17:56] <mjs> ack Julian
# [17:56] * Zakim sees mjs, hsivonen, kennyluck on the speaker queue
# [17:56] <dbaron> hsivonen: One reason element is out is that hyperlinks are underlined so Hixie thinks is bad.
# [17:56] * kennyluck fantasai, also says "The b element represents a span of text to be stylistically offset from the normal prose without conveying any extra importance"
# [17:57] * kennyluck fantasai, this fits the use of "proper noun" as well
# [17:57] <dbaron> Julian: I think this WG has spent countless man-years discussing whether something should be conforming or not. I think it's pointless to make things nonconforming that user agents will have to implement anyway. If we can just make a few noncontroversial things conforming and get closer to finishing.
# [17:57] <oedipus> kennyluck, is about style - not conveying importance, as your quote shows -- presentation should be separate from content
# [17:58] <dbaron> cynthia: Can I withdraw the bug after someone else escalated it?
# [17:58] <dbaron> maciej: Anyone can escalate, so it's escalated, but there will be a call for escalated.
# [17:58] * kennyluck I suppose is not conveying importance as well.
# [17:58] * Quits: SGondo (SGondo@126.248.234.250) (Ping timeout)
# [17:58] <dbaron> maciej: The bug on was escalated.
# [17:59] <dbaron> anne: Allowing people not in the group to escalate things but not letting them write a change proposal seems like a bug in the process.
# [17:59] <dbaron> maciej: We allow people not in the group to escalate since it's the way to appeal the editor's decision to the WG. If nobody in the WG cares enough to draft a change proposal then it'll get dropped.
# [18:00] <dbaron> anne: Can we instead require someone in the WG to agree before it gets escalated?
# [18:00] <mjs> ack mjs
# [18:00] * Zakim sees hsivonen, kennyluck on the speaker queue
# [18:00] <dbaron> cynthia: The only overhead is that it starts the clock for change proposals.
# [18:00] * Julian tic tac
# [18:01] * Julian ^ refers to the fact it's 6pm
# [18:01] <oedipus> kennyluck "Authors are encouraged to consider whether other elements might be more applicable than the i element, for instance the em element for marking up stress emphasis, or the dfn element to mark up the defining instance of a term."
# [18:01] <dbaron> maciej: One useful framework for thinking about this is that there are two models of authoring for creating rich text to publish as HTML. One model is that you're really thinking of it as HTML / Web Content, and you're thinking about markup, etc. The other is casual, user-generated content (email, Word), where the mental model is hitting the bold or italic button.
# [18:01] <MichaelC> q+ to say it's useful for this opportunity to discuss what we separately mean by "semantics" etc.; but then we can move away from lots of group times on fiddly things
# [18:01] * Zakim sees hsivonen, kennyluck, MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [18:01] <dbaron> maciej: We should support the semantics, but we also need to support the casual user-generated content, and it's unreasonable to ask authors to do too much in order to put some content up on the Web.
# [18:02] <dbaron> maciej: This idea that everything has to be semantic has been a disservice to this sort of users; they end up using lots of spans with CSS, or inappropriate semantics.
# [18:02] <dbaron> maciej: This is sort of like punctuation; we don't have a sentence tag, we let people type a period.
# [18:03] <dbaron> maciej: I stronly agree with having the phrasing elements. If we have to invent a semantic fig leaf, that's ok, but I'd prefer not to.
# [18:03] <Julian> q+
# [18:03] * Zakim sees hsivonen, kennyluck, MichaelC, Julian on the speaker queue
# [18:03] * Quits: soonbo (soonbo.han@84.14.50.82) (Quit: soonbo)
# [18:03] <dbaron> cynthia: For some of those scenarios there are tools that can assist people in being more semantic, such as clickable styles. I'm fine with those being at a tool level. Mostly I filed the bug because it seemed like there were inconsistencies.
# [18:03] <oedipus> but we should have a L (line) element so when snippets of <code> are displayed, the semantic integrity of a line of code (or a poem) is retained, no matter the manner of rendering (no more code in PRE with multiple )
# [18:03] <dbaron> cynthia: Michael, do you feel strongly about keeping this stuff?
# [18:04] <mjs> ack hsivonen
# [18:04] * Zakim sees kennyluck, MichaelC, Julian on the speaker queue
# [18:04] <dbaron> MichaelC: I feel strongly about not wasting a whole lot of time on little issues like this. I think it's been useful to share our ideas on semantics.
# [18:04] <MichaelC> ack me
# [18:04] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say it's useful for this opportunity to discuss what we separately mean by "semantics" etc.; but then we can move away from lots of group times on fiddly
# [18:04] <Zakim> ... things
# [18:04] * Zakim sees kennyluck, Julian on the speaker queue
# [18:04] <dbaron> hsivonen: I'd like to give some background about the page I linked to. This is a page my mom wrote in Dreamweaver; it lists a bunch of books for her students to read.
# [18:04] <mjs> repasting referenced URL: http://www.helsinki.fi/~rkosken/kirjallisuus/pukuhistoria.html
# [18:04] <oedipus> <code><l>sample code line one</l><l>sample code line two</l></code>
# [18:05] <dbaron> hsivonen: The concept being marked up is clearly the concept the <cite> element would provide. But the page instead has elements and elements. This is explained by the version of Dreamweaver used to create it originally using the element and a newer version of Dreamweaver using the element in response to the same command.
# [18:05] <cyns> q+
# [18:05] * Zakim sees kennyluck, Julian, cyns on the speaker queue
# [18:05] <dbaron> hsivonen: The page isn't even internally consistent. The user has know way of knowing this result from the WYSIWYG part of Dreamweaver.
# [18:06] <mjs> ack kennyluck
# [18:06] * Zakim sees Julian, cyns on the speaker queue
# [18:06] <oedipus> the tool (dreamweaver) should have done a universal search-and-replace (interactive, preferably) which would have changed the to when became the tool's default
# [18:06] <dbaron> hsivonen: I think it's hopeless to expect authors to do better; changing what Cmd+I generates doesn't add usefulness to this.
# [18:06] <dbaron> kennyluck: I found the interpretation of as a semantic element hard to understand. The table says the element is for alternative voice, but the text says...
# [18:06] * MichaelC we're gonna be the very last group to wrap up this week...
# [18:07] <dbaron> kennyluck: I don't think technical terms fit into this category; do you alternate your voice when you read a ??? name.
# [18:07] <dbaron> hsivonen: The reason it's complicated is that it tries to provide a semantic fig leaf to justify keeping .
# [18:07] * MichaelC new catch-phrase: "semantic fig leaf"
# [18:07] * MichaelC ;)
# [18:07] <fantasai> anne: For all the cases where a more specific element is not applicable
# [18:07] <Julian> q!
# [18:07] <fantasai> sicking: Technically you could use the citation, but ...
# [18:08] <fantasai> anne: There is a should requirement that you use the most appropriate element, which would mean you violate that should requirement.
# [18:08] <mjs> q?
# [18:08] * Zakim sees Julian, cyns on the speaker queue
# [18:08] <kennyluck> s/???/ship/
# [18:08] <r12a> q+
# [18:08] * Zakim sees Julian, cyns, r12a on the speaker queue
# [18:08] <fantasai> anne: You could argue that violating that should requirement is OK when you use WYSIWYG editor
# [18:08] <mjs> ack Julian
# [18:08] * Zakim sees cyns, r12a on the speaker queue
# [18:08] * anne cut the cue with success o_O
# [18:08] <fantasai> Julian: I forgot to say and add to what I said before, that in addition to making all those elements that might be unconforming conforming
# [18:09] <oedipus> kennyluck, putting a ship's name in italics is a relic of printing conventions
# [18:09] <fantasai> Julian: The spec explains why using semantic elements is better, instead of using conformance hammer, I think that would be much better
# [18:09] <hsivonen> +1 to what Julian said
# [18:09] <mjs> ack cyns
# [18:09] * Zakim sees r12a on the speaker queue
# [18:09] <fantasai> mjs: Last call for queuing
# [18:09] <fantasai> cyns: A tool could be designed to handle Henri's mom's use case, to help the user create a properly marked up bibliography
# [18:10] <fantasai> cyns: Not all tools will do that, but a tool can.
# [18:10] * oedipus anne, i've never been able to figure out the emoticon/ascii art meaning of o_O
# [18:10] <fantasai> cyns: So it's not a spec problem but a tool problem.
# [18:10] <fantasai> cyns: The semantic fig leaf seems somewhat tortured
# [18:10] <fantasai> sicking: Do AT take action on or ?
# [18:10] <fantasai> Janina: sure
# [18:10] <fantasai> Janina: That's an option
# [18:10] * anne oedipus, some variant of surprised
# [18:10] <oedipus> the tool (dreamweaver) should have done a universal search-and-replace (interactive, preferably) which would have changed the to when became the tool's default while offering the user the choice to use other more appropriate tags (such as <cite> for instance)
# [18:11] * anne oedipus, not entirely sure what the details of it are
# [18:11] <dbaron> sicking: Other than for proofreading, do people configure screenreaders that it reads in a different voice?
# [18:11] <mjs> ack r12a
# [18:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:11] * oedipus thanks -- it's been bugging me
# [18:11] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@84.14.50.82) (Ping timeout)
# [18:11] <dbaron> Janina: I don't think so.
# [18:11] * anne oedipus, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=o_O has more :)
# [18:11] * oedipus have to add it to my TTS dictionary o_O = surprise
# [18:11] * fantasai uses according to HTML5's current definition....
# [18:11] <dbaron> r12a: I think different types of user are critical to this discussion; I don't think you can expect ordinary user writing blog post to semantically tag their stuff, so I think it's useful to have and .
# [18:11] * anne oedipus, it says confused / weirded out / stunned
# [18:12] <dbaron> r12a: There are perhaps other users writing large Web sites going to be localized, and we could expect them to know about semantic markup and how to do things better.
# [18:12] <r12a> i think the distinct types of user is critical to this discussion - i doubt many users would know how to semantically tag their blog post text using elements or class names, but people designing large sites that need to be localized may do so, and for those we can provide guidance, eg. http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-b-and-i-tags
# [18:12] <dbaron> r12a: I think keeping the fig leaves in place can be useful; I think guidelines like the one just pasted could be useful. I don't think we should do anything.
# [18:12] * oedipus thanks -- the only reason i picked up your :) is because i have that and several other common emoticons set to expand the dictionary entry but on windows machines, in My Computer i hear "drive C smile"
# [18:12] <dbaron> cynthia: Except add back ?
# [18:12] <dbaron> r12a: Possibly.
# [18:12] <anne> oedipus, haha
# [18:13] <dbaron> maciej: Out of actionable things, it seems like most people in the room in favor of adding back . For adding back we have a bug that has been reopened. Adding more info or maybe escalating might be right step.
# [18:13] <hsivonen> q+
# [18:13] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [18:13] <dbaron> Julian: Argument for removing semantic fig leaves.
# [18:13] <dbaron> maciej: Someone would have to file a bug to remove semantic fig leaves.
# [18:13] <mjs> ack hsivonen
# [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:13] <cyns> +1 julian
# [18:14] <dbaron> hsivonen: As a validator developer, I care more about telling people to do busywork that isn't beneficial, so I care most about the machine-checkable conformance requirements (does the element exist in the language).
# [18:14] <dbaron> hsivonen: I'd be ok with not having semantic fig leaves and saying that these things are in the language and they do X.
# [18:14] <oedipus> rip off the semantic fig leaves!
# [18:15] <dbaron> hsivonen: I think it's semi-OK to have the fig leaves since they don't lead to bad consequences for validator users. But they do lead to ratholing on mailing lists.
# [18:15] <dbaron> maciej: I care more about the mechanical requirements.
# [18:15] <dbaron> Julian: But people care about them.
# [18:15] <dbaron> ?: That's how we ended up here.
# [18:15] <dbaron> r12a: If people want to demarcate the content and don't want . What do they use?
# [18:15] <oedipus> if they feel strongly about it, they can use
# [18:16] <dbaron> fantasai: doesn't say that the element should be distinguished to the user. says the reader should be able to distinguish the text from the surrounding contents. I think it makes sense to encourage people to use where that's appropriate rather than + CSS.
# [18:16] <dbaron> cynthia: One thing that didn't get into minutes: I think current spec text is quite confusing: what is supposed to mean.
# [18:16] <dbaron> cynthia: It seems like simpler and more declarative " does this" text would be better.
# [18:17] <dbaron> Janina: I think in an English class many years ago we were taught that if you wanted to emphasize something you use italics and if you really want to emphasize it you bold it.
# [18:17] <dbaron> anne: But you also put a bunch of other things in italics.
# [18:17] <fantasai> cyns, but /doesn't/ "do this" (put things in italics) in renderings that dont' support it
# [18:17] <oedipus> cyns, agree that the and parts need to be more harmonic
# [18:17] <dbaron> Janina: to set them apart...
# [18:17] <dbaron> anne: Why not let them use ?
# [18:17] <fantasai> cyns, such as voice or braille or TTY interfaces
# [18:17] <dbaron> Janina: I have no problem with them using ; I think we're making too much of this.
# [18:17] <dbaron> [multiple conversations]
# [18:18] <oedipus> the only reason italics and bold were used for emphasis is that there isn't any means other than underlining or changing fonts or using italics or bold in print, that shouldn't limit/lead our work on semantic MLs
# [18:18] <dbaron> maciej: Time to adjourn; people are welcome to continue discussion informally.
# [18:18] <dbaron> Meeting adjourned.
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# [18:19] * oedipus thanks everyone for accommodating remote participants
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# [18:22] <seungjae> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html seungjae
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# [18:28] * oedipus great timing doug, we just adjourned!
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# [19:01] <ormaaj> heh, in some contexts we work hard to explicitly bind (especially relational) semantics to elements a la RDFa, and in a few exceptional cases give tags implicit semantic meaning (and implicit presentational qualities).
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# Session Close: Sat Nov 06 00:00:00 2010

The end :)