/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2011-11-03 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Nov 03 00:00:01 2011
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:22] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14681] New: Separate 'acknowledgements' into list by participants of WHATWG and the W3C HTML Working Group? It may be useful to see all of the members who contribute in each/both group for clarification purposes. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0198.html> ** [Bug 12547] <video> MEDIA CONTROLLER requires readyState for grouped multitrack <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov
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# [00:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14678] <video> is in the-iframe-element.html <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0199.html>
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# [01:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14682] New: Listed, submittable, <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0201.html> ** [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0200.html>
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# [02:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0203.html> ** [Bug 12393] Add "allow-popups" for iframe@sandbox <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0202.html>
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# [04:54] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14683] New: this site is very good <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0205.html> ** [Bug 14548] Grouping Content: algorithm for incrementing value (OL->LI @value) does not match any current user agent <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0204.html>
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# [07:24] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14683] this site is very good <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0206.html>
# [08:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0207.html>
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# [09:25] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0208.html>
# [09:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0210.html> ** [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0209.html>
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# [10:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11984] Simplify <video> for implementors and authors by ignoring the Content-Type HTTP header <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0211.html>
# [11:25] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10694] Specify window.console <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0212.html>
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# [13:54] <pimpbot> planet: Robert Nyman: Mozilla Hacks Weekly, November 3rd 2011 <http://hacks.mozilla.org/2011/11/mozilla-hacks-weekly-november-3rd-2011/>
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# [15:26] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14686] New: I'm a little worried about deprecating nearly all the table attributes. I have a web application which I have worked on for the past 5 years, I have already started incorporating HTML5 into it. But, if support for tables is removed, my web application w <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0213.html>
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# [16:26] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14687] New: uhi u hiu hiuh ih ihih hhiuhiu hhhhih hh oih iuh iho hoih h oi <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0214.html>
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# [16:57] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14499] Need ability to reset Canvas clipping region without resetting all other Canvas state <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0218.html> ** [Bug 14526] WF2: When adding filenames to the data set, should there be normalization of decomposed forms? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0215.html> ** [Bug 14687] uhi u hiu hiuh ih ihih hhiuhiu hhhhih hh oih iuh iho hoih h o
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# [17:12] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
# [17:12] <MikeSmith> meeting: HTML WG f2f
# [17:12] <MikeSmith> Topic: Intro
# [17:13] <MikeSmith> paulc: will be doing things un-conference style
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# [17:13] <MikeSmith> paulc: I propose we meet 9 to 5 both days
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# [17:13] <MikeSmith> [discussing room logistics]
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# [17:13] * ArtB wonders if there are some pre-allocated time slots for joint meetings?
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# [17:17] <MikeSmith> paulc: MikeSmith and others will need to be at the AC meeting from 10:45 to 11:15
# [17:17] <MikeSmith> paulc: propose we have the joint meeting with the Web and TV IG after lunch today
# [17:17] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [17:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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# [17:18] <MikeSmith> paulc: several people have traveled to TPAC for the Web and TV meeting
# [17:18] <MikeSmith> paulc: we will plan 1 hour for that session
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# [17:19] <pimpbot> changes: sam: Correct link to issue 174 change proposal <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0016.html>
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# [17:19] <MikeSmith> paulc: we are not planning to have a phone bridge
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# [17:19] <MikeSmith> ... can skype people in
# [17:20] <MikeSmith> [doing self-intros around the room]
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# [17:21] * MichaelC hmm, the opera people expected to be known from first name alone ;)
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# [17:22] <MikeSmith> Topic: Suggested topics for discussion
# [17:22] <MikeSmith> tantek: <time> element
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# [17:23] <MikeSmith> james_graham: practical test-writing session
# [17:23] <MikeSmith> paulc: Test Writing: Just Do It
# [17:23] * Parts: jihye (jihye0525.@63.145.238.4)
# [17:24] <MikeSmith> plh: report from Kris Kruger on Testing TF
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# [17:25] <MikeSmith> giuseppe: Web on TV session
# [17:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: report on HTML Decision Policy bar camp session
# [17:25] <MikeSmith> karl: Last Week in the HTML WG
# [17:26] <MikeSmith> frank: canvas accessibility
# [17:26] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [17:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [17:26] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> steve_faulkner: conveying activity to the mailing list; reporting
# [17:27] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14176] onerror: If the script is not same-origin, window.onerror should be invoked with arguments ("Script error.", "", 0) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0228.html> ** [Bug 14177] onerror: If the script is not same-origin, window.onerror should be invoked with arguments ("Script error.", "", 0) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0227.html> ** [Bug 14182] onerror: s
# [17:27] * karl just realized that "Last Week" string could be misinterpreted.
# [17:27] * MichaelC yeah, that's why you were quizzed :)
# [17:27] <MikeSmith> kris_kruger: feedback on the test harness
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# [17:28] <JF> zakim, who's here?
# [17:28] <Zakim> sorry, JF, I don't know what conference this is
# [17:28] <Zakim> On IRC I see kaz, jihye, jamesn, eric_carlson, ArtB, frankolivier, evanli, LJW, Stevef, mark, junya, JanL, weinig, Mohammed, ChrisWilson, plh, hiroki, howard, krisk, adrianba,
# [17:28] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: HTML.next
# [17:28] <Zakim> ... gang, Ruinan, bkihara, YW, JF, richardschwerdtfe, eliot, stpeter, YUMA, dowan, kensaku_, MichaelC, a12u, kimberly, si-wei, dsinger, paulc, myakura_, Zakim, Julian, karl,
# [17:28] <Zakim> ... lgombos, MikeSmith, drublic_, davidb, webben, Joshue, hsivonen, nonge_, arronei, trackbot, Hixie, duri, pingo, gavin_, Dashiva, hober, heycam, jmb, johndrinkwater, [tm], CIA-1,
# [17:28] <Zakim> ... pimpbot, krijnh
# [17:28] <MikeSmith> steve: where are we at with change proposals; issue/CP status
# [17:29] <MikeSmith> sam: discuss reopen requests at the same time?
# [17:29] <MikeSmith> janina: longdesc
# [17:29] <MikeSmith> ... discuss the alternatives that have been proposed
# [17:29] <MikeSmith> adrianba: status of where we are in the schedule, what the next steps are
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# [17:30] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [17:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [17:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
# [17:30] <MikeSmith> Stevef: <dialog> element
# [17:30] <MikeSmith> Stevef: <hgroup> element
# [17:31] * drublic_ is now known as drublic
# [17:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: maybe the lack of technical discussions being proposed indicates that we're done
# [17:33] <MikeSmith> peter: URI/IRI
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# [17:34] <MikeSmith> paulc: thanks tantek (yesterday's bar camp)
# [17:35] * tantek hopes we can do it again next year :)
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# [17:36] <MikeSmith> tantek: <time> element was recently dropped from the spec; goal of this session would be to gather interested parties to write a change proposal
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> james_graham: test-writing session: If you don't know how to write test cases, we'll teach you
# [17:37] <MikeSmith> krisk: 1 full hour for test-suite report
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# [17:38] <MikeSmith> plh: people want to comment on the decision policy rather than hear a summary of it
# [17:39] <tantek> karlpro just denied being Mr. Last Week
# [17:39] <karl> Last Week/Month in Open Web Techno http://www.w3.org/QA/archive/open_web/
# [17:39] <pimpbot> Title: Open Web - W3C Blog - Category Archives (at www.w3.org)
# [17:39] <MikeSmith> karl: I've been writing a weekly report on the HTML WG; I would like to hear suggestions on how to improve it
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# [17:39] <karl> there is also the one written by anne
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# [17:39] <karl> on whatwg blog
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# [17:40] <MikeSmith> richardschwerdtfe: we have been discussing hit testing
# [17:40] <MikeSmith> ... for canvas
# [17:40] <MikeSmith> ... get the bounds of objects in fallback content
# [17:40] <MikeSmith> ... getting path info
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# [17:41] <MikeSmith> Stevef: activity is occurring in isolated bug reports, difficult to follow it all
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# [17:42] <MikeSmith> MichaelC: would it be appropriate to consider that a "project management" topic?
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# [17:42] <MikeSmith> james_graham: discussion about the test harness with Mozilla folks can take place outside the f2f
# [17:43] <MikeSmith> Stevef: there are quite a few issues that are sitting on the chairs' desk; would like to know what's happening with them
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# [17:45] <MikeSmith> cynthia: a11y API working session
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# [17:45] <MikeSmith> ... would be helpful to make sure we have someone with a Mac at that session
# [17:46] <MikeSmith> 11 people for <time> session
# [17:46] <MikeSmith> 11 people for writing test cases
# [17:47] <MikeSmith> 9 people for HTML Decision Policy bar-camp session
# [17:47] <MikeSmith> 14 for reporting on WG activity
# [17:48] <MikeSmith> 15 for canvas accessibily
# [17:49] <MikeSmith> 18 for HTML.next
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# [17:49] <MikeSmith> 7 for CP/Issue status
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# [17:50] <MikeSmith> 6 for longdesc
# [17:50] <MikeSmith> 6 for dialog element
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# [17:51] <MikeSmith> 7 for hgroup
# [17:51] <MikeSmith> 4 for issue-56 URI/IRI discussion
# [17:52] <MikeSmith> 2 for a11y API mappings discussion
# [17:52] <MikeSmith> 11 for schedule, status, next steps
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# [17:57] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 12547] <video> MEDIA CONTROLLER requires readyState for grouped multitrack <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0234.html> ** [Bug 13995] <track> Don't check Content-Type for <track> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0233.html> ** [Bug 11984] Simplify <video> for implementors and authors by ignoring the Content-Type HTTP header <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/pu
# [17:57] <MikeSmith> A. WG status
# [17:58] <MikeSmith> B. HTML.Next
# [17:58] <MikeSmith> C. Canvas accessibility
# [17:58] <MikeSmith> D. Web and TV
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# [17:58] <MikeSmith> E. <time> element
# [17:58] <MikeSmith> F. Testing HTML
# [17:59] <MikeSmith> G. Issue discussion
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# [18:02] <anne> maybe someone should connect a computer to the screen upfront and type out the schedule?
# [18:02] <anne> would be more accessible too
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# [18:06] <tantek> to be clear, <time> session is about a change proposal to add <time>, as defined in the spec and inclusive of additional granularity with rough consensus as documented here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time#Date_granularity
# [18:06] <pimpbot> Title: Time element - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
# [18:07] * tantek invites wg members to comment / +1/0/-1 in the "Discussion" sections on that wiki page.
# [18:07] <MikeSmith> H. a11y API mapping
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> [working on schedule / time slots]
# [18:11] <myakura> just a placeholder: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda
# [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2011 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [18:11] * ArtB FYI: the slides MikeSmith created for the AC's HTML5 status: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTML5/
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# [18:14] <krisk> room claps for krisk
# [18:14] <MikeSmith> scribe: krisk
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# [18:14] <krisk> Canvas Accessibility Session
# [18:15] <krisk> franko: Solution for providing canvas accessibilty using 'sub dom'
# [18:16] <krisk> franko: canvas UI's exist that have multiple UI elements
# [18:16] <krisk> franko: screenreaders have no solution to track focus on each element
# [18:16] <krisk> rich: It
# [18:16] <krisk> ..not just about screenreaders it's also for magnifiers
# [18:17] <krisk> shelly: keyboard users also need to see the see focus rects
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# [18:17] <krisk> franko: context.setElementPath is used to set an area
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# [18:19] <myakura> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda#Thursday.2C_3_November_2011
# [18:19] <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2011 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [18:19] <krisk> franko: call takes an element param, which events can be set to the 'sub dom'
# [18:19] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: compat changes for <textarea>.value and .textLength (whatwg r6815) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0017.html>
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# [18:19] <krisk> anne: given we are going to add path objects at somepoint in the future
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# [18:20] <krisk> anne: ...wouldn't it be better to use path objects for this problem
# [18:20] <krisk> rich: calrification on anne's suggest
# [18:21] <krisk> anne: it's just re-usesable path objects
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# [18:22] <krisk> msj: in many common 2d systems you'll want to re-use paths
# [18:22] <krisk> msj: not clear that this use case will have this ability
# [18:22] <hober> s/msj/mjs/
# [18:23] <krisk> franko: we should have a longer discussion about this
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# [18:23] <krisk> franko: we don't want to store a bitmap, rather a vectorize
# [18:23] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
# [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
# [18:23] <krisk> franko: Next part is about hittesting
# [18:23] <krisk> franko: want to make hittesting support easier of the author
# [18:24] <plh> --> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011 HTML WG TPAC 2011 agenda
# [18:24] <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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# [18:24] <krisk> franko: use case is a single click (checkbox), or immediate action (button)
# [18:25] * MichaelC goes to join AC, will rejoin after lunch
# [18:25] <krisk> franko: attribute 'hittest' would solve this
# [18:25] <krisk> mjs: why would you use the x and y?
# [18:25] <krisk> rich: you won't lose the x and y?
# [18:26] <krisk> mjs: seems simpler to always to hittesting and just pass the information through
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# [18:26] <krisk> rich: Anne are you asking to place the hittesting back on the canvas element?
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# [18:27] <krisk> Anne: Pointer events should solve this - when you click on an element you should be able to send events to sub elements
# [18:27] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13983] WF2: It seems like textarea's raw value should always normalize newlines to \n <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0241.html> ** [Bug 14260] <track> "text tracks ready" and HTMLMediaElement.readyState <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0240.html> ** [Bug 13983] WF2: It seems like textarea's raw value should always normalize newlines to \n <http://lists.w3.org/
# [18:27] <krisk> mjs: pointer events don't work in this case, you would need to re-target the events
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# [18:28] <krisk> rich: are you supportive of this?
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# [18:28] <krisk> mjs: I have just seen this proposal - though initially it seems to only need the one mode to satisfy the use case
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# [18:30] <krisk> rich: shows the first idea for setPathForElement from draft spec
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# [18:31] <krisk> * if someone can drop a link to the draft spec for this that would be super
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# [18:31] <krisk> rich: All the events get passed like a pointer event
# [18:32] <krisk> shelly: why the z-index?
# [18:32] <krisk> rich: explains why z-index is needed to NOT set focus to a background object
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# [18:33] <krisk> mjs: it's not clear that z-index will work
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# [18:33] <krisk> franko: simalar to how last draw wins, setpath would do the same
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# [18:34] <krisk> shelly: seems much simpler to have last draw win
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# [18:34] <krisk> ...due to other bugs
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# [18:35] <krisk> anne: not sure how element fits into this
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# [18:35] <krisk> franko: the elements in a subdom have not size or position
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# [18:36] <krisk> franko: in IE9 you can give elements postion and size that map to canvas that then will get pickd up by a screenreader
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# [18:37] <krisk> rich: you can also have the keyboard and mouse handlers on the same element
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# [18:37] <krisk> anne: this is only accessibility right? not css om?
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# [18:38] <krisk> franko: correct
# [18:39] <krisk> franko: we have some more work to do onthis draft, though do we think this is the right direction to solve canvas accessibility?
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# [18:39] <krisk> rich: jonas (mozilla) suggest a scroll into view, does that make sense?
# [18:39] <krisk> anne: yes..
# [18:39] <krisk> rich: do we need to add this to this draft proposal?
# [18:39] <krisk> ...I could use some help on this from you anne
# [18:40] <krisk> anne: yes...
# [18:40] <krisk> rich: now on to focus ring...
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# [18:40] <krisk> rich: Please take a peek at Focus management...
# [18:41] * plh notes that the HTML AC update won't start before 11am
# [18:41] <krisk> drawSystemFocusRing/drawCustomFocusRing
# [18:41] <krisk> rich: mjs can you take a peek at this?
# [18:41] * MikeSmith plh OK, thanks
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# [18:41] <krisk> rich: this allows the system to do the right thing...
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# [18:42] <krisk> rich: customfocusring can be used to by magnifiers
# [18:42] <krisk> mjs: it's not totally clear to me
# [18:42] <krisk> rich: we have one function before, now we have two
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# [18:43] <krisk> rich: mjs do you see the subtle diff, I have two points of feedback
# [18:44] <krisk> mjs: one issue, if you used a bitmap or from another canvas to create a custom focus ring
# [18:44] <krisk> mjs: next issue, you could use a opacity and end up not drawing a focus ring...
# [18:44] <krisk> ...but it defeats the purpose of path drawing...
# [18:45] <krisk> ..it also seems that these two methods are not needed
# [18:45] <anne> It seems scrollPathIntoView() is already covered: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#dom-context-2d-scrollpathintoview
# [18:45] <pimpbot> Title: 4.8.11 The canvas element HTML Standard (at www.whatwg.org)
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# [18:46] <krisk> mjs: how can we address the issue when the author draws a focus ring that doesn't match the magnifier
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# [18:47] <krisk> mjs: the least path of resistance is to to auto set focus ring
# [18:47] <krisk> rich: it may not be critical to have path for everything
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# [18:48] <krisk> franko: seems that this would make it easier for dev, if a UA would autodraw focus ring
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# [18:48] <krisk> rich: seems like you want to have a system foucs ring (to get system focus ring defaults)
# [18:49] <krisk> mjs: my suggestion is that these focus ring calls, calling these on the path would seem to work simalar to css outline
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# [18:50] <krisk> mjs: you need to deal with repainting when focus goes away..
# [18:50] <krisk> mjs: you don't want to cache this...
# [18:50] <krisk> mjs: normally this done by a dirty rect that is then repainted
# [18:51] <krisk> mjs: a UA can't do this correctly when other drawing has occured
# [18:52] <krisk> shelly: did we solve this with the set path?
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# [18:52] <krisk> mjs: no
# [18:52] <krisk> franko: doesn't seem that we are optimizing for the main use case
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# [18:54] <krisk> mjs: you want to make this general and not use this if they can't get focus rings correct they will do their own focus ring painting
# [18:54] <krisk> ...which then will break magnifiers
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# [18:54] <krisk> mjs: if you don't want to handle this complexity then you need to just use normal elements
# [18:55] <pimpbot> planet: Tantek: "But then if we do not ever make <time>, how can we ever have <time>?" #Merovingian #HTML5 #TPAC #TPAC2011 <http://tantek.com/2011/307/t3/make-time-have-time-merovingian-html5-tpac-tpac2011> ** Tantek: proposed a "<time> element" session for the HTML Working Group meeting. #TPAC #HTML5 irc://irc.w3.org:6665/html-wg <http://tantek.com/2011/307/t2/proposed-time-element-session-html-group-tpac-html5>
# [18:55] <krisk> franko: it seems that you could add this to canvas and solve some of problems that canvas has today
# [18:55] <richardschwerdtfe> link to draft proposal for hit testing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Oct/att-0137/clickableregion.html
# [18:55] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Canvas 2D Context (at lists.w3.org)
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# [18:56] <krisk> mjs: canvas to canvas is a case that doesn't seem to work with this proposal
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# [18:57] <krisk> ..happy to look at a propsal that would solve this...
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# [18:57] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14688] New: fhfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhg giuhgiuhiuhi hbkhikhiuhbi ihbihbjhbjhb <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0243.html> ** [Bug 12715] When used to include data blocks (as opposed to scripts), the data must be embedded inline <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0242.html>
# [18:57] <krisk> franko: let's review what we have now and write up another proposal
# [18:58] <krisk> franko: I'd like write up how a UA could automatically take care of focus ring drawing..
# [18:58] <krisk> rich: thanks for the feedback mjs
# [18:58] <krisk> mjs: anyother comments about this draft propsal
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# [18:59] <krisk> alex: seems odd that this is for only certain elements which seems weird?
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# [18:59] <krisk> alex: is this for canvas only or any element?
# [18:59] <krisk> franko: only canvas
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# [19:00] <krisk> alex: this is to solve the special case for solving accessibility
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# [19:00] <krisk> ..which doesn't map to other needs to handle special hit testing
# [19:01] <krisk> mjs: this enable to forward hit testing to another sub dom
# [19:01] <krisk> alex: this seems to lead to badness where the the logical dom doesn't map to what is visually shown
# [19:02] <krisk> anne: I think alex makes a good point...once we get 'components' then we can solve this disconnect
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# [19:03] <krisk> mjs: three minutes left - not enough time to discuss this complexity
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# [19:04] <krisk> mjs: break time, starting again at 11:30am
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# [19:09] <myakura> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011
# [19:09] <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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# [19:09] <myakura> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [19:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html myakura
# [19:09] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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# [19:27] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 12547] <video> MEDIA CONTROLLER requires readyState for grouped multitrack <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0244.html>
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# [19:37] <krisk> Time Element...
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# [19:37] <myakura> Topic: the <time> element
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# [19:38] <krisk> tantek: let's get started
# [19:38] <krisk> tantek: recently this was drop'd from the space
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# [19:39] <krisk> ..spec
# [19:39] <krisk> tantek: Potential to add back a more powerful time element
# [19:39] <krisk> tantek: summary add back + more
# [19:40] <myakura> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/time_element
# [19:40] <pimpbot> Title: User:Tantekelik/time element - W3C Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [19:40] <krisk> tantek: for year dates, month days...etc...
# [19:40] <krisk> tantek: v-card4 expanded to include these uses
# [19:40] <krisk> ...addition to these obvious ones..two more exists
# [19:40] <krisk> time zone and duration
# [19:41] <krisk> ...lots' of useage...
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# [19:41] <krisk> ..apps can use this to deal this the lack of timezone context
# [19:42] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
# [19:42] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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# [19:42] <krisk> tanket: Ask group - any use cases missed?
# [19:42] <krisk> mjs: can we see use cases of each?
# [19:42] <krisk> tanket: lets' take year only...
# [19:42] <krisk> ...YYYY
# [19:43] <krisk> tantek: year month is used alot on bloging...
# [19:44] <krisk> Time element doesn't match HTML5 input types, which is a mismatch
# [19:44] <krisk> ..another example is credit card dates
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# [19:45] <krisk> tantek: Month Day - e.g 12-25 (x-mas) or a birthday
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# [19:46] <krisk> tantek: duration: use case is it's not possible to differential from a time
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# [19:46] <krisk> ..for example 2:30 is this 2:30pm or a movie that lasts two and a half hours
# [19:47] <krisk> tantek: it's implemented by a few others and it seems to work...
# [19:47] <krisk> ...since people are using this...
# [19:47] <krisk> tantek: generally do we want more specific or more generic elements?
# [19:48] <krisk> ...div is very generic and could be a span or header, group, etc..
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# [19:49] <krisk> though we have gone down the more specific and added many more specific elements that can be created by a div
# [19:49] <krisk> anne: not clear why we need this..
# [19:50] <krisk> tantek: people incorrectly parse times and get the wrong information
# [19:50] <krisk> james: you can still get this wrong...
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# [19:50] <krisk> ...for example a birthday on a page using a time element, could be considered a publishing date
# [19:51] <karl> performance on querying the DOM? parsing all data elements instead of only time?
# [19:51] <krisk> tanket: this is not true...
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# [19:51] <krisk> james: the time element is not going to solve this use case
# [19:52] <krisk> mjs: I'd like to jump in and comment
# [19:52] <krisk> tantek: the search engine example is a little vague
# [19:52] <krisk> mjs: another use case is to search for a date, what happend on 11/3/2011?
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# [19:53] <krisk> mjs: it's possible that search engines could use a time element for this use case
# [19:53] * karl thinks it should 2011-11-03 :p
# [19:53] <krisk> mjs: not sure if this is a primary use case but, it is a use case
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# [19:54] <krisk> tantek: I am drawing from example of real use cases for search engines
# [19:55] <krisk> james: we don't have a location element for example...why not?
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# [19:55] <pimpbot> planet: Tantek: #HTML5 time element discussion <time>11:30</time> <time datetime=2011-11-03>today</time>: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011#Day_1 <http://tantek.com/2011/307/t5/html5-time-element-discussion-today>
# [19:55] <krisk> tantek: we do in geolocation and I encourage you to take a peek at these WGs
# [19:55] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
# [19:55] <krisk> james: we're not adding a location element though...
# [19:55] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
# [19:56] <krisk> tantek: we may...
# [19:56] <krisk> mjs: we do have evidence that search engines are doing this heuroistically
# [19:57] <karl> we born with a date, a location and a name
# [19:57] <krisk> ..which they get wrong, so by adding it helps search engines
# [19:57] <krisk> mjs: calrification on james...
# [19:57] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14526] WF2: When adding filenames to the data set, should there be normalization of decomposed forms? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0245.html>
# [19:57] <krisk> ..question...
# [19:58] <krisk> james: I'm claiming that time is less useful than something claiming it's a heading
# [19:59] <krisk> alex: how do we add new elements into html that has good use case for searching..
# [19:59] <krisk> ..Microdata has prove the use and if html doesn't add new elements it won't have a future
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# [20:00] <krisk> tantek: We have highly generalized neeeds and data shows that it's has a need
# [20:01] <krisk> ...for the time element
# [20:01] <krisk> tantek: we not asking to add new elements for tags that are highly specialized (volcano)
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# [20:02] <krisk> tantek: we are not adding alot of elements to html, so it's not a slippery slope
# [20:02] <krisk> mjs: asking for vote to not having time element vs having time element
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# [20:03] <krisk> 1 vote to not have it...larger number of people (7) would like to have time element
# [20:04] <krisk> mjs: asking for data element vs not having data element
# [20:04] <krisk> mjs: it seems that it's clear (not full working group) favor having both elements <time> <data>
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# [20:05] <krisk> hixie: most of these use case are irrelevant
# [20:05] <krisk> ..you don't need markup for this..
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# [20:06] <krisk> hixie: all of this can be trivial found since they are ISO standards and are easily parsed
# [20:06] <karl> hixie: you don't need markup for publishing data, you need markup for consuming data
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# [20:07] <krisk> ..search engines do this today pretty well...except year and length
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# [20:07] <krisk> ..the ambiguity exists for other items...
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# [20:07] <krisk> ..for example SF - all search engines know this is san fran
# [20:08] <krisk> tantek: we can use what people publish to determine what we need
# [20:09] <krisk> tantek: time is being used and the pattern is that others will
# [20:09] * karl <amy> W3C lunch is in the Hall of Cities area (the hallway nearer to the starbucks)
# [20:09] <krisk> hixie: they build it and it will come is not a good strategy
# [20:09] <krisk> tantek: I disagree it's worked well for Microdata
# [20:10] <tcelik> krisk s/microdata/microformats
# [20:10] <krisk> hixie: longdesc is a good example gone wrong
# [20:10] <krisk> tantek: why make a special case for year? If lots of people are using this then we should promote this to an element
# [20:11] <MikeSmith> s/Microdata/microformats/
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# [20:11] <krisk> tantek: If people are intrested in time, then I'd like to hear their specific needs
# [20:11] <krisk> kimberly: TV has a use for duration
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# [20:12] <krisk> mjs: some of these particular specified date don't enable a date() object to be created
# [20:13] <krisk> ..we have a problem since an api exists to provide a date() object from this tag
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# [20:13] <krisk> tantek: It's a perfectly reasonable request to expect the api to do the right thing
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# [20:14] <krisk> ..doesn't seem like a difficult problem and should be easy to reach consensus
# [20:14] <krisk> mjs: any other questions?
# [20:15] <krisk> alex: what about pre-gregoria and gregoria?
# [20:15] <krisk> tantek: I have not seen data to justify adding this support
# [20:15] <krisk> alex: I have seen this in history examples
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# [20:16] <anne> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proleptic_Gregorian_calendar
# [20:16] <krisk> tantek: a workaround exists...
# [20:16] <anne> ^^ article on workaround
# [20:16] <krisk> tantek: it we have more data then we can add this support
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# [20:17] <krisk> tantek: if you see it we can evaluate it as we gather more data
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# [20:17] <krisk> mjs: any other comments or time in general?
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# [20:18] <krisk> group agrees no more issues, meeting is over and we'll meet again after lunch at 1:30
# [20:18] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
# [20:18] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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# [20:19] <krisk> rrsagent, make log public
# [20:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, krisk
# [20:19] <karl> agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011
# [20:19] <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
# [20:19] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
# [20:19] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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# [20:20] <krisk> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [20:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html krisk
# [20:20] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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# [20:20] <tcelik> FYI re: non-Gregorian proposal/research http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#Calendar_scale
# [20:20] <pimpbot> Title: Time element - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
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# [20:21] <karl> s/Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda#Thursday.2C_3_November_2011/Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011/
# [20:21] <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2011 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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# [20:27] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14689] New: xml-stylesheet with type=text/xsl needs to be handled explicitly <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0246.html>
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# [20:58] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14688] fhfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhg giuhgiuhiuhi hbkhikhiuhbi ihbihbjhbjhb <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0247.html>
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# [21:41] <tcelik> greetings
# [21:41] <ArtB> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [21:41] <RRSAgent> ok, ArtB; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [21:41] <tcelik> rrsagent tcelik is tantek
# [21:41] <tcelik> rrsagent, tcelik is tantek
# [21:41] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'tcelik is tantek', tcelik. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [21:42] * tcelik changes topic to 'Web & TV'
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# [21:42] <anne> topic: Web & TV
# [21:42] <anne> scribe: tcelik
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# [21:43] <tcelik> W3C Media Pipeline TF Requirements
# [21:43] <tcelik> presentation
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# [21:44] <tcelik> November 1-4, 2011
# [21:44] <tcelik> Clarke: two task forces
# [21:44] <tcelik> media task force
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# [21:44] <tcelik> home networking task force
# [21:44] <tcelik> media *pipeline task force
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# [21:45] <tcelik> … scope of the MPTF is to support commercial grade video in browsers or anything that supports HTML
# [21:45] <tcelik> … set out to develop requirements in that area
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# [21:45] <tcelik> … then identified gaps
# [21:45] <tcelik> … good news is found very few gaps
# [21:45] <tcelik> … most use cases adequately supported in HTML or in current specification
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# [21:45] <tcelik> … we have some additional areas with ideas for addressing things, not yet consensus
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# [21:46] <tcelik> "R1. Combined main + description audio track"
# [21:46] <tcelik> R1 = requirement one
# [21:46] <adrianba> rrsagent, pointer
# [21:46] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-irc#T20-40-48
# [21:46] <tcelik> … each of these slides have use case, what doesn't work, bugs filed, sections in spec, suggested changes
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# [21:47] <tcelik> Clarke: first use-case
# [21:47] <tcelik> … in US/Canada different from Europe - playing audio tracks
# [21:47] <tcelik> … US/Canada premixed
# [21:47] <tcelik> … other countries separate
# [21:47] <tcelik> … we need to identify premix
# [21:47] <tcelik> … right now HTML5 appears to only address non-prefix
# [21:48] <tcelik> … Suggestions:
# [21:48] <tcelik> … define new category values
# [21:48] <MikeSmith> bug 13357?
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# [21:48] <tcelik> … main+description
# [21:48] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13357 b.lund, P2, NEW, <video>: Additional AudioTrack.kind categories are needed to identify tracks where audio descriptions are premixed with main dialogue.
# [21:48] <tcelik> … translation+description
# [21:48] <tcelik> Mark Vickers, Comcast (MV)
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# [21:48] <tcelik> MV: you could make the category a list
# [21:48] <tcelik> … such as if you had main video and assigned video
# [21:49] <tcelik> Paul Cotton (PC) for the record this bug is still marked as new
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# [21:49] <tcelik> … this = bug 13357
# [21:49] <tcelik> MV: we also reviewed this with the a11y P&F group on Tuesday
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# [21:49] <tcelik> … there was some discussion about that with some people that were more expert on this
# [21:50] <tcelik> Janina: we agree that this is information that needs to be avail to the consumer
# [21:50] <tcelik> … how we achieve it is matter of discussion
# [21:50] <tcelik> John Foliot (JF)
# [21:50] <tcelik> … the use case of supporting text descriptions is very real
# [21:50] <tcelik> … we would support additional kinds
# [21:51] <tcelik> Janina: you're going to want to know for historical stuff if it is premixed
# [21:51] <tcelik> … can't unmix it
# [21:51] * hober wonders if RRSAgent understands U+2026 in addition to ...
# [21:51] <tcelik> Frank Olivier: do you think we need these 9 categories only, or should we leave it open ended
# [21:52] <tcelik> … so people can create their own categories
# [21:52] <tcelik> Clarke: we should ask the a11y group
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# [21:52] <tcelik> JF: when we looked at the values originally, these slipped past us. In theory I support multiple / extensible kinds
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# [21:52] * MichaelC guesses not but probably replaceable later
# [21:52] <anne> what is wrong with kind=alternative + label=... ?
# [21:52] <tcelik> … what if we do if down the road we discover a new kind
# [21:53] <tcelik> MV: There's an example on the slides I wondered about.
# [21:53] <tcelik> … there's a type for main video
# [21:53] <tcelik> … and signed video
# [21:53] <tcelik> … could be delivered separately or together as well.
# [21:53] <MikeSmith> q?
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# [21:53] <tcelik> Russell: I was going to suggest ...
# [21:53] <tcelik> Anne: what about using just "alternate/alternative" and a label?
# [21:54] <tcelik> Janina: you need to distinguish two situations
# [21:54] <dbaron> participants in Web and TV IG: https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=46300
# [21:54] <tcelik> … a) audio+video premixed, can't undo that
# [21:54] <dbaron> Participants in HTML WG: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1
# [21:54] <pimpbot> Title: Participants in the HTML Working Group - DBWG, the Working Groups Database (at www.w3.org)
# [21:54] <tcelik> … b) European practice, main audio, and then describe-audio in separate channel
# [21:54] <tcelik> … as long as it is clear to user if it is premixed or not
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# [21:55] <tcelik> Anne: premix just seems like just an alternate
# [21:55] <tcelik> Maciej: you still need the device that's doing the playback to know the nature of the atlernative
# [21:55] <Kai> help
# [21:55] * MichaelC wonders which is more efficient, a zakim-queue or a kaz-queue :)
# [21:55] <tcelik> … if I said I want audio descriptions for everything, then when the format is in a premix format, UA needs to detect that so that it doesn't mix them up
# [21:55] <Kai> s/help//
# [21:56] <tcelik> … there might be multiple combined resources in the same track, should be able to express that
# [21:56] <tcelik> JF: Anne, we don't have a labeling mechanism. We only have kind.
# [21:56] <Hixie> when people say @kind, what are they referring to?
# [21:56] <anne> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-TrackList-getKind-categories
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# [21:56] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Standard (at www.whatwg.org)
# [21:57] <tcelik> Anne: the preselection mechanism makes sense.
# [21:57] <tcelik> Mark Watson (MW) Netflix
# [21:57] <tcelik> … the labels are not useful because you can't automatically intepret them, i18n etc.
# [21:57] <MikeSmith> bug 12544?
# [21:57] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12544 jfoliot, P3, NEW, <video> MEDIA CONTROLLER requires track kind for in-band tracks
# [21:57] <tcelik> … captions and subtitles
# [21:57] <tcelik> … not available in other form, want to be able to signal
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# [21:57] <Hixie> anne: well that's confusing. That's an IDL attribute, not a content attribute.
# [21:57] <tcelik> … when those are available
# [21:57] <tcelik> Janina: Anne, you need to give us 2 examples
# [21:57] <tcelik> … how is it marked when the described audio is burned in, and separate track
# [21:58] <tcelik> … one example is not enough
# [21:58] <tcelik> … need to have two to understand how it works
# [21:58] <tcelik> Anne: I was already convinced earlier by Maciej
# [21:58] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13986] Update vCard vocabulary to RFC6350 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0248.html>
# [21:58] <tcelik> Janina: this is the uncontroversial one
# [21:58] <tcelik> PC: as chair, question I ask is, the bug does not include a complete change proposal
# [21:59] <tcelik> … is there anybody in the room that are going to carry this forward and write a change proposal
# [21:59] <tcelik> … I want to know how this is going to work
# [21:59] <anne> Hixie: hmm yeah
# [21:59] <tcelik> … editor handles the bug?
# [22:00] <tcelik> JF: This is obviously supporting an a11y requirement, we could write a change proposal. just requesting 2 values at this time.
# [22:00] <tcelik> JF: we could explore extensibility later
# [22:00] <tcelik> Sam Ruby: Editor processes it by default
# [22:00] <tcelik> PC: Let's follow process then, have the editor process it
# [22:00] <anne> Hixie: I guess http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-track-kind is the one
# [22:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie, are there any new UA conformance requirements needed for this? any browser implementation needed?
# [22:00] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Standard (at www.whatwg.org)
# [22:00] <tcelik> … I encourage those who have specific proposal to add it to the bug
# [22:00] <anne> Hixie: but that doesn't make sense
# [22:01] * anne is confused now
# [22:01] <tcelik> Bob from Cable Labs: what's being proposed is two new kind categories
# [22:01] <tcelik> … main+description
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# [22:01] <tcelik> … translation+description
# [22:01] <tcelik> … do we need more?
# [22:01] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [22:01] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
# [22:01] <tcelik> JF: there may be in the future. at this point these 2 have emerged. a year from now?
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# [22:01] <tcelik> … 2 ways to approach. 1. let's propose these for the spec now, 2. is there an extensibility issue?
# [22:01] <tcelik> Bob: Let's move forward with these two kinds
# [22:01] <tcelik> … and parallel with a broader solution
# [22:01] <anne> Hixie: I guess the streams would expose those kind of values
# [22:02] <tcelik> JF: if you want to action the a11y tf go ahead
# [22:02] <tcelik> Giuseppe from Opera
# [22:02] <tcelik> … kind can be main+description, plus something else
# [22:02] <tcelik> JF: that goes back to question of extensible
# [22:02] <tcelik> … sounds like we have extensibility issue here on the table
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# [22:03] <tcelik> … it's a worth while discussion
# [22:03] <tcelik> Giuseppe: we need specific requests because we are not familiar
# [22:03] <tcelik> … with the process in this group
# [22:03] <tcelik> PC: because bugs are first processed by the editor
# [22:03] <tcelik> PC: 1. does the bug reflect the discussion here?
# [22:03] <tcelik> … if it doesn't, add that info to the bug
# [22:04] <tcelik> … because *that* is what will be taken into consideration
# [22:04] <tcelik> Hixie: are we talking about the 'kind' attribute on … ?
# [22:04] <tcelik> JF: The object?
# [22:04] <tcelik> Hixie: these are very different with different behaviors
# [22:04] <tcelik> Anne: it's about the object
# [22:04] <tcelik> Hixie: happy to add to the object
# [22:05] <tcelik> … only limitation is the formats the UA supports
# [22:05] <tcelik> … so far I added everything Ogg supports
# [22:05] <tcelik> … happy to add what H264 supports
# [22:05] <tcelik> … need documentation on that though first
# [22:05] <tcelik> … please add a link to the relevant spec in the bug and I'll add it.
# [22:05] <tcelik> MW: that's a backwards way of thinking about it
# [22:06] <tcelik> … notion of those not have to do with media containers
# [22:06] <tcelik> … backwards to wait for the media container people
# [22:06] <tcelik> … and then copy/paste those into the HTML
# [22:06] <tcelik> … we don't want to go overboard
# [22:06] <tcelik> … where there examples that are clearly in use, even not on web
# [22:06] <tcelik> … we should add it for the web.
# [22:07] <tcelik> Janina: are you Ian waiting for a user agent on the web to support it.
# [22:07] <tcelik> … we know what we want because we have 30 years of history on this in broadcast and broader media distribution
# [22:07] <tcelik> … we can be fairly confident there aren't going to be different things
# [22:07] <tcelik> … question is how to mark when they've been combined into a single track, and how to mark when they're separate tracks
# [22:08] <tcelik> Clarke: it's clear we need to have bug processed by the editor, and we all add any comments to the bug
# [22:08] <tcelik> … next issue
# [22:08] <tcelik> " R3. Handling of In-band Tracks"
# [22:08] <MikeSmith> bug 13358?
# [22:08] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13358 b.lund, P2, NEW, <video> also fire a 'change' event at VideoTrackList, AudioTrackList, and TextTrackList objects when their list of tracks changes
# [22:08] <MikeSmith> bug 13359?
# [22:08] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13359 b.lund, P2, NEW, A way is needed to identify the type of data in a track element
# [22:08] <MikeSmith> bug 14492?
# [22:08] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14492 jan.lindquist, P2, NEW, <video> change event when tracks are removed
# [22:09] <tcelik> … use case: Playing in-band multiplexed media streams (e.g. broadcast tv, live events and recorded movies) with track elements that come and go over time (e.g. secondary audio, subtitles, in different languages, application signaling and content ratings>)
# [22:09] <tcelik> … what doesn't work: application doesn't know type of data tracks or when tracks end.
# [22:09] <tcelik> … submitted bugs: [x] LC1 Bug 13358
# [22:09] <tcelik> …. [ ] LC1 Bug 13359
# [22:09] <tcelik> … [ ] Bug 14492
# [22:10] <tcelik> … sections: 4.8.10.12.2 sourcing in-band text tracks
# [22:10] <tcelik> … suggested changes:
# [22:10] <tcelik> … * mapping of in-band tracks nedds to be done in a standard way
# [22:10] <tcelik> ...
# [22:11] <tcelik> FO: It would be good to do enumeration of all the tracks in the file and what their start/end times are
# [22:11] <tcelik> Hixie: the problem is that you don't know if/when they're going to start or end if ever
# [22:11] <JF> s/nedds to be done/needs to be done
# [22:11] <tcelik> FO: but if it is not a live stream...
# [22:11] <tcelik> Clarke: but it is (a live stream)
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# [22:11] <tcelik> Hixie: there appear to be two issues here
# [22:11] <tcelik> Hixie: 1. multiple inband tracks video and audio tracks that come and go
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# [22:12] <tcelik> … I'm trying to better understand why are there so many tracks?
# [22:12] <tcelik> Clarke: multiple secondary audio tracks, multilingual, application signalling
# [22:13] <tcelik> … one way of dealing for example, something similar to a current video channel, you choose to encode it as a continuous stream, every time you get an ad you get new tracks
# [22:13] <tcelik> Hixie: if you go from tv to ad to tv, presumably you have one video, one audio stream, one alternate for the other
# [22:13] <tcelik> Bob: one example is...
# [22:13] <tcelik> … or go from one program to another, and the translation tracks change
# [22:13] <tcelik> … text tracks that come and go
# [22:14] <tcelik> … timed text tracks are useful for interactive TV signaling
# [22:14] <tcelik> … in general over a long period like hours, you would expect to see audio tracks show up and go away
# [22:14] <tcelik> Hixie: for metadata text tracks that makes more sense
# [22:14] <tcelik> Eric from Apple
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# [22:14] <tcelik> … when you change format, or change characteristics of the audio, typically done with different tracks. e.g. main program to ad
# [22:15] <tcelik> … diff size or scaled, compressed with different format
# [22:15] <tcelik> Hixie: each ad could be in a new track?
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# [22:15] <tcelik> Eric: yeah
# [22:15] <tcelik> Hixie: makes sense. I'll fix that.
# [22:15] <tcelik> Hixie. 2. the other one was the text track. don't fully understand. you want the text tracks to fully say what they are?
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# [22:16] <tcelik> Bob: TV applications, e.g. interactive TV app, ad insertion opportunity. if those are inband tracks, no way to identify them as metadata tracks. no way to identify to scripts that one contains one format and another contains another format.
# [22:16] <tcelik> … one way would be identifying them with a mimetype
# [22:16] <tcelik> … or other ways
# [22:16] <tcelik> … idea, expose program description
# [22:16] <tcelik> … javascript would have enough to look at the tracks and figure out which are which
# [22:17] <tcelik> Hixie: can you reuse label?
# [22:17] <tcelik> Bob: that's non-standard
# [22:17] <tcelik> Hixie: we could make it
# [22:17] <tcelik> Bob: that would be the kind
# [22:17] <tcelik> Hixie: my concern is that this usecase seems specific to one domain, very concerned about adding a feature just for this one domain
# [22:17] <tcelik> Bob: not sure if domain specific
# [22:18] <tcelik> Hixie: if you have a normal web page, it has some out of band text tracks that are kind equals metadata
# [22:18] <tcelik> … you're doing it from script
# [22:18] <tcelik> … so you don't need it
# [22:18] <tcelik> Bob: this is an inband track problem
# [22:18] <tcelik> Bob: they're not limited to...
# [22:18] <tcelik> Hixie: that track doesn't have label right?
# [22:18] <tcelik> Bob: depends on media format
# [22:18] <tcelik> … Ogg or Webm has an attribute where you can specify a human readable string for the channel which would logically go into the label
# [22:18] <tcelik> … some tracks have labels, some done
# [22:19] <tcelik> Hixie: I'll have to look at that more closely. That doesn't help me understand the problem.
# [22:19] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [22:19] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
# [22:19] <tcelik> PC: Hixie, any other questions?
# [22:19] <tcelik> Hixie: two issue I asked about are enough
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# [22:19] <tcelik> MV: it would be useful to thru the mapping spec
# [22:19] <tcelik> Hixie: A link to that would be very useful in the bug
# [22:20] <tcelik> MV: this is the mapping spec
# [22:20] <tcelik> "Mapping from MPEG-2 Transport to HTML5"
# [22:20] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Attempt to update to the latest vCard spec (whatwg r6816) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0018.html>
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# [22:20] <tcelik> Hixie: I don't think I've seen that.
# [22:20] <tcelik> Bob: it's not on a wiki
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# [22:20] <tcelik> PC: can we post it now
# [22:20] <tcelik> Hixie: you can attach it to the bug
# [22:21] <tcelik> … that would be great
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# [22:21] <tcelik> Clarke: are there any opinions about whether this mapping specification you want to refer to separately or W3C would want to maintain?
# [22:21] <tcelik> Adrian of Microsoft: short answer yes
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# [22:21] <tcelik> … I suggest sending it to the list
# [22:21] <tcelik> … maybe posting it somewhere and sending a pointer
# [22:21] <tcelik> … have people on the mailing list discuss it
# [22:22] <tcelik> Clarke: ok let's move to the next one
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# [22:22] <tcelik> "R7. Additional Media Paramters"
# [22:22] <tcelik> … this is the more controversial one potentially
# [22:22] <MikeSmith> issue-179
# [22:22] <tcelik> … hopefully less controversial with how we're approaching it
# [22:22] <MikeSmith> issue-179?
# [22:22] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-179
# [22:22] <trackbot> ISSUE-179 -- {audio,video} require param child (or equivalent) -- open
# [22:22] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/179
# [22:22] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-179: {audio,video} require param child (or equivalent) - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [22:23] <tcelik> … Use case: Playing adaptive rate video via video element.
# [22:23] <MikeSmith> bug 13333?
# [22:23] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13333 glenn, P2, RESOLVED WONTFIX, audio, video (and source) elements require param children or equivalent
# [22:23] <tcelik> … Currently deployed object element adaptive rate video players allow application control of adaptive play-out.
# [22:23] <MikeSmith> bug 13625?
# [22:23] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13625 b.lund, P2, NEW, There is no way to pass audio and video content metadata to the user agent that is required in some cases for playback.
# [22:23] <tcelik> … Common parameters or other media should also be considered.
# [22:23] <tcelik> … what doesn't work: HTML5 spec has no API to control adaptive video
# [22:23] <tcelik> Clarke: one idea suggested in #htmlav club meeting yesterday was need to come up with specific parameters to be passed
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# [22:24] <tcelik> … we don't think there is a need for new functionality to HTML, but perhaps additional errors for more specificity, or other events
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# [22:24] <tcelik> … for communication to media elements
# [22:24] <tcelik> MV: on this and the next few bugs, issue 179 is mentioned
# [22:24] <tcelik> … 179 proposed a general parm mechanism
# [22:24] <tcelik> … discussion said to propose specific parameters
# [22:24] <tcelik> … so next few are proposing specific parameters
# [22:25] <tcelik> … but no one is against a generic param mechanism
# [22:25] <tcelik> Anne: could you clarify what you mean by passing data to the media elements.
# [22:25] <tcelik> ?
# [22:25] <tcelik> … adaptive streaming sounds more like a protocol issue more than what media element should handle
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# [22:25] <tcelik> Clarke: there are certain parameters that would be useful to media general problems
# [22:26] <tcelik> … general idea of passing params is helpful e.g. provide an experience where people watching get best experience, to know the bandwidth
# [22:26] <tcelik> Anne: where do you pass params to, who gets them, uses them
# [22:26] <tcelik> ?
# [22:27] <tcelik> ...
# [22:27] <tcelik> Anne: I've heard two proposals so far
# [22:27] <tcelik> … 1 is to let protocol solve it
# [22:27] <tcelik> … UA implements protocol, server does too, they negotiate quality/bitrate
# [22:28] <tcelik> … 2 is where page has open with server, and gets passed bytes over that connection where they implement the protocol at the application level and pass blobs to the video element that would allow this sort of thing
# [22:28] <tcelik> … at this stage it is inactionable
# [22:28] <tcelik> … need more concrete proposal
# [22:28] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13359] A way is needed to identify the type of data in a track element <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0253.html> ** [Bug 14690] New: <a> should be allowed as a child of <dl> Current browsers allow this already. A semantic use case is file downlads <dl><a href="filename1.pdf"><dt>Filename</dt><dd>description of file</dd><dd>filetype</dd></a>etc...</dl>. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html
# [22:28] <tcelik> Adrian: What Mark said was, the idea of that request everybody now understands is a good one. There's some work to do to figure out that concrete suggestion.
# [22:29] <tcelik> … should happen somewhere, think it should happen in HTML Working Group
# [22:29] <tcelik> PC: current status of issue 179 that asks for the generic PARAM parameter
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# [22:29] <tcelik> … we have a counter change proposal to not do that
# [22:29] <tcelik> PC: we haven't had the original change proposal withdrawn
# [22:29] <tcelik> … still time for counter proposals
# [22:29] <tcelik> PC: I want to know what are we going to know with 179.
# [22:30] <tcelik> Adrian: I'll withdraw my overgeneralization of everybody.
# [22:30] <tcelik> … maybe almost everybody agrees now
# [22:30] <tcelik> … I suspect that at end of issue 179 there will be consensus for not making a change
# [22:30] <tcelik> … because we have a better understanding how to move forward.
# [22:31] <tcelik> MV: re 179, I spoke with Glenn Adams. he is still interested in pursuing that. he is not able to be here.
# [22:31] <tcelik> MV: the interest group does not have unified support for that bug
# [22:31] <tcelik> … we are coming in with Sylvia alternative proposal
# [22:31] <tcelik> … to discuss specific parameters
# [22:31] <tcelik> … the whatwg link in this slide goes to a survey/analysis of adaptive parameters across a wide variety of systems
# [22:32] <tcelik> PC: I believe we have 2 change proposals.
# [22:32] <tcelik> … we haven't yet called for counters.
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# [22:32] <tcelik> … normally that runs 30 days
# [22:32] <tcelik> … ended on Oct 28
# [22:32] * ArtB thinks Mark was referring to: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_Metrics
# [22:32] <pimpbot> Title: Error (at wiki.whatwg.org)
# [22:32] <tcelik> … next automatic step would be to evaluate whether we call for counter proposals
# [22:32] <tcelik> … would be good to hear from as many WG members where they stand on this.
# [22:32] <tcelik> (silence)
# [22:33] <tcelik> Hixie: When Henry rejected the bug, he rejected the generic concept
# [22:33] <tcelik> … specific issues would be considered.
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# [22:33] <tcelik> PC: new related bugs would be treated as subtypes of this bug and treated as last call
# [22:34] <tcelik> … e.g. we have cases where we as we refine the question in a bug, the chairs are willing to enter into a consideration that subtype bugs are then treated as ontime last call bugs.
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# [22:34] <tcelik> … reach out to us and ask if you have any questions about that and have a dialog with us.
# [22:34] <tcelik> Clarke: R7 was about passing params
# [22:34] <tcelik> … R8 is about getting feedback
# [22:35] <tcelik> … R10 and R11 we consider parallel issues
# [22:35] <tcelik> … specifically related to content protection
# [22:35] <tcelik> … "R111. Content Protection Feedback and Errors"
# [22:35] <tcelik> … we the people who know the specific events, errors, params need to be passed and come to a consensus of a subset of these that we would propose as changes.
# [22:36] <tcelik> MW: currently the errors on the media element are rather limited
# [22:36] <tcelik> … I'd like to learn more about the rational for that
# [22:36] <tcelik> … reason for more error codes where we have customer service reps
# [22:36] <tcelik> … trying to fix things
# [22:36] <tcelik> …. we want web page be able to provide more specific errors
# [22:36] <tcelik> … to send back
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# [22:37] <tcelik> Hixie: reason limited is baby steps. reason object instead of number is to be able to add things later
# [22:37] <tcelik> … should be slow to add things because they we get too far ahead of the implementations
# [22:37] <arnpro> what do you think about Dart? (google's new)
# [22:37] <tcelik> … errors have some CORS aspects
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# [22:37] <tcelik> ?? need 10
# [22:38] <tcelik> Hixie: that's a lot, please prioritize
# [22:38] <tcelik> Clarke: if there is advice for how to get this into HTML quickly that would be great.
# [22:38] <tcelik> Clarke on R7
# [22:38] <tcelik> … exposing information on available bit rates, maybe set maximum
# [22:38] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
# [22:38] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
# [22:38] <tcelik> … exposing and setting parameters for fragment selection
# [22:39] <tcelik> … playlists want to prefetch segments to play things seamlessly
# [22:39] <tcelik> … in R8
# [22:39] <tcelik> … common media error
# [22:39] <tcelik> … additional events/info
# [22:39] <tcelik> … DNS failure, TCP failure, TLS failure
# [22:39] <tcelik> … stats such as packet drop rate
# [22:39] <tcelik> … changes in the stream of events
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# [22:39] <tcelik> MV: this is where the referenced WHatWG wiki is good to look at
# [22:40] <tcelik> Clarke: R150
# [22:40] <tcelik> R10
# [22:40] <tcelik> … getting DRM system information
# [22:40] <tcelik> … exchange DRM related messages
# [22:40] <tcelik> … ref: OIPF DAE specification
# [22:40] <tcelik> … R11. Content Protection Feedback and Errors
# [22:41] <tcelik> Tantek: are the slides in the respective bugs?
# [22:41] <tcelik> Clarke no but they could be
# [22:42] <tcelik> ACTION Clarke add contents from the slides of the presentation to each specific bug
# [22:42] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [22:42] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Clarke
# [22:42] <tcelik> MW: Different conclusions though, might be components exposed through the web interface, pass through for parameters is different than webarch that hides platform/device specific things
# [22:42] <tcelik> … re: content protection
# [22:42] <tcelik> … some devices have content protection, some dont'
# [22:43] <tcelik> … my question to the group is: is it acceptable to introduce this capability to the web platform (pass thru), or some other strategy?
# [22:43] <tcelik> Anne: the last time this was discussed on WHATWG list
# [22:44] <tcelik> … least controversial suggestion was API feed bits into the video stream
# [22:44] <tcelik> … DRM would be implemented at the application level
# [22:44] <tcelik> MW: you can't implement the DRM in the JS
# [22:44] <tcelik> … needs to be implemented in trusted execution environment
# [22:45] <karl> there is nothing secure in life. useless pun.
# [22:45] <tcelik> MW: objective of DRM is not to make it impossible but difficult, for some well defined values of difficult
# [22:45] <tcelik> … need these capabilities in the trusted computing layers
# [22:45] <tcelik> … below the video element
# [22:45] <tcelik> Anne: we are already at the place where you have H264 decoding in JS
# [22:46] <tcelik> … I was just stating the last thing that was discussed on this topic that had some traction beyond we don't want to go there.
# [22:46] <tcelik> John Simmons of Microsoft: Echoing what Mark said.
# [22:46] <tcelik> … key takeaway
# [22:46] <tcelik> … DRM systems are going to be used on video delivered to devices
# [22:46] <tcelik> … people who develop DRM understand those constraints
# [22:46] <tcelik> … e.g. can't implement in JS
# [22:47] <tcelik> … key question is whether HTML will be able to accomodate DRM protected content
# [22:47] <tcelik> … or continue like silos today
# [22:47] <tcelik> … which prevent large scale growth of internet television that we'd like to see
# [22:47] <tcelik> MV: related to 179
# [22:47] <tcelik> … there are these two proposals
# [22:47] <tcelik> … 1. for parm
# [22:47] <tcelik> … 2. not use it
# [22:48] <tcelik> … data- and x- are supposed to be prohibited from use
# [22:48] <tcelik> … but no change proposal says use those
# [22:48] <tcelik> … didn't make sense
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# [22:48] <tcelik> … details are in the issue 179 two alternate proposals
# [22:48] <tcelik> … can anyone comment?
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# [22:48] <tcelik> PC: project change proposal?
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# [22:49] <tcelik> PC: original change proposal
# [22:49] <tcelik> MV: just above the blue box
# [22:49] <tcelik> … furthermore the data-* mechanism etc.
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# [22:49] <tcelik> … can't be used
# [22:50] <tcelik> … but then in Sylvia's counter proposals says to use them.
# [22:50] <tcelik> … does the quoted text need clarification
# [22:50] <tcelik> … or is it just a misunderstanding?
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# [22:50] <tcelik> Hixie: the data-* attributes are intended to only be used by scripts in the page, not by the user agent
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# [22:50] <tcelik> … if you have something the user agents would use, then either we would add it to the language
# [22:50] <tcelik> … or if it was experimental we would use x-* syntax
# [22:51] <tcelik> … e.g. webkit has x-webkit-*
# [22:51] <tcelik> Adrien: the misunderstanding was how x- attribute might be used on the way to standardization
# [22:51] <tcelik> … e.g. like it's done with vendor prefixing in CSS.
# [22:51] <tcelik> … in order that those experimental implementations don't drive actual content, we use a vendor prefix
# [22:52] <tcelik> … the proposed standard doesn't have a vendor prefix
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# [22:52] <tcelik> … the vendor prefixes are a temporary measure to experiment while standard is being agreed.
# [22:52] <tcelik> MV: concrete case is UPnP
# [22:52] <tcelik> … available spec
# [22:52] <tcelik> … but no support for it
# [22:52] <tcelik> … slightly different model UPnP video vs. regulary HTML video access
# [22:53] <tcelik> … a separate group UPnP could publish use x-upnp-* params, and encourage others to
# [22:53] <tcelik> Hixie: if they're writing an actual standard they wouldn't use x-
# [22:53] <tcelik> … just upnp-
# [22:53] <tcelik> MV: so ok for them to just use upnp- ?
# [22:53] <tcelik> Hixie: I wouldn't recommend it, would prefer to come to the group
# [22:53] <tcelik> MV: I agree primary idea is bring these in
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# [22:54] <tcelik> bug 13625 (13635?) also tracks separate attribute
# [22:54] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13625 b.lund, P2, NEW, There is no way to pass audio and video content metadata to the user agent that is required in some cases for playback.
# [22:54] <tcelik> PC: I want to point people to the conformance clause in HTML5
# [22:54] <tcelik> PC: It says you can conform by pointing to HTML5 and other set of additional specifications
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# [22:55] <tcelik> … a vertical industry could say you conform to HTML5 and this other specification
# [22:55] <tcelik> … too many people believe you want to force everything into the HTML5 spec.
# [22:55] <tcelik> … I want to support Ian's view that if something is generic we want that discussion and get that in
# [22:55] <tcelik> … or at least know about it
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# [22:56] <tcelik> … so that we can detect when something becomes emergently generic
# [22:56] <tcelik> Hixie: I agree
# [22:56] <tcelik> … the conformance section really it says what's been true of any spec
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# [22:56] <tcelik> MW: I wouldn't encourage people to write extensions. we have an interest in strongly discouraging separate extension. we don't want fragmentation.
# [22:57] <tcelik> … if you look at OIPF and HDTV you have 100s of 1000s of pages of stuff
# [22:57] <tcelik> … a uniform platform, that should be our goal
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# [22:57] <tcelik> Hixie: in practice as people do start writing specs that start extending HTML in that way, it probably means we failed, but in reality it might happen anyway
# [22:58] <tcelik> PC: time check
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# [22:58] <tcelik> … have gone through all the material
# [22:58] <tcelik> … several suggestions made
# [22:58] <tcelik> … including Tantek's that all this slide material be added to the associated bugs
# [22:58] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13357] <video>: Additional AudioTrack.kind categories are needed to identify tracks where audio descriptions are premixed with main dialogue. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0262.html> ** [Bug 13239] Add support for in-page dialogs <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0261.html> ** [Bug 12409] WF3: Automatic capitalization in input fields <http://lists.w3.org/Archi
# [22:58] <tcelik> … have we covered everything that the interest group wanted to cover?
# [22:59] <tcelik> … process discussion can be taken offline over coffee
# [22:59] <tcelik> … chairs are open to taking that stuff orally or over email
# [22:59] <tcelik> MV: two things
# [22:59] <tcelik> … 1. one more residue, that we're not bringing. as FYI: need for a service discovery API
# [22:59] <tcelik> … to allow discover of things thru like zeroconf and UPnP
# [22:59] <tcelik> … being discussed at DAP group
# [23:00] <tcelik> … we didn't bring it to this group because it is a whole new thingl
# [23:00] <tcelik> … 2. we studied dozens and dozens of use-cases
# [23:00] <tcelik> … this is the residue that came out
# [23:00] <tcelik> … testament to the spec, many applications worked just fine with the spec
# [23:00] <tcelik> …. other than these few areas
# [23:00] <tcelik> … it's all right on track
# [23:00] <tcelik> … a lot of verification
# [23:00] <tcelik> … there was a huge amount of positive work that we're not showing you because it all worked.
# [23:00] <tcelik> PC: any last comments?
# [23:01] <tcelik> … thanks to the chairs of the IG for approaching the chairs of the HTML WG so early
# [23:01] <tcelik> … gave us a chance to coordinate chairs
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# [23:01] <tcelik> … WG meeting is now recessed until 15:30-0700
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# [23:01] <tcelik> <br type=coffee/>
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# [23:01] <anne> wait
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# [23:01] <tcelik> RRSAgent, minutes
# [23:01] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'minutes', tcelik. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [23:01] <anne> is the value "coffee/"
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# [23:02] <anne> or "coffee"
# [23:02] <tcelik> anne - ask the parser ;)
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# [23:02] <tcelik> RRSAgent, create minutes
# [23:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html tcelik
# [23:02] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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# [23:28] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13359] A way is needed to identify the type of data in a track element <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0264.html> ** [Bug 13550] type table in 4.10.7 should indicate control type changes based on list attribute <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0263.html> ** [Bug 14691] <a> should be allowed as a child of <dl> Current browsers allow this already. A semantic use cas
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# [23:39] <hober> ScribeNick: hober
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# [23:41] <hober> rubys: this is the last session of the day
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# [23:41] <hober> Topic: HTML Decision Policy report
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# [23:42] * hober can someone paste in a link to the slides?
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# [23:42] <hober> paulc: these slides are from the plenary day session
# [23:42] <hober> paulc: I'll go through the slides and replay some of the Q&A that we had yesterday and this morning in the AC meeting
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# [23:43] <hober> ... we have bugs & issues; editor responsible for bugs, escalation procedure for others that produces issues
# [23:43] <hober> ... chairs find consensus through the path described in the decision policy
# [23:43] <hober> ... v2 of the policy endorsed by the wg this summer
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# [23:44] <hober> ... chairs look at the reactions that change proposals get
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# [23:44] <hober> ... [description of Enhanced Change Control]
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# [23:45] <hober> ... e.g. the <time> element discussion earlier, the chairs have requested a revert; issue will be turned into multiple proposed changes
# [23:45] <hober> ... [paul displays & describes diagram of the decision process algorithm]
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# [23:48] <hober> ... feedback from ac meeting: decision policy isn't approachable for new people
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# [23:49] <hober> ... chairs have informally discussed, working up a simple faq would help
# [23:49] <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [23:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ1
# [23:49] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
# [23:49] <hober> ... the process is detailed because the chairs don't want there to be any confusion
# [23:50] <hober> ... issues can sometimes be reopened
# [23:50] <hober> ... when writing up a decision the chairs describe the sorts of triggers that could get the issue reopened
# [23:51] <hober> ... interested in new information that wasn't part of the original discussion
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# [23:52] <hober> ... Formal Objections are the escape valve of the w3c process
# [23:52] <hober> ... we have a webpage that lists our formal objections thus far
# [23:52] * hober could someone paste in the link to that page?
# [23:53] <hober> ... e.g. the polyglot document claims to be normative, there is an FO on this
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# [23:54] <hober> ... received a comment that, given the importance of the decision policy, changing it is akin to rechartering
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# [23:54] <hober> ... there is a bugilla component on the policy; we welcome bugs
# [23:54] <hober> ... maciej processed as many bugs as possible between v1 and v2 of the policy
# [23:54] <hober> ... decision policy isn't an edict from the chairs; we welcome feedback on it
# [23:55] <hober> ... another comment: some find the wg to be a hostile place, and that the way editors process bugs is unusual
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# [23:56] <hober> ... the chairs work very hard to make this a level playing field in which people feel that they can present arguments
# [23:56] <hober> ... one person complained that they couldn't unsubscribe from the mailing list
# [23:57] <hober> ... dsinger & others asked how is someone supposed to be able to watch all of the many changes
# [23:57] <hober> ... paul stepped through the <time> element changes, showing the granularity of spec change; the editors are really good about matching changes to specific bugs
# [23:58] <hober> ... somewhat difficult to see what changed in the w3c document because the svn commits are on the whatwg side
# [23:58] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13570] why does input type=color support autocomplete? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0271.html> ** [Bug 13550] type table in 4.10.7 should indicate control type changes based on list attribute <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0270.html> ** [Bug 13558] input type=email should support friendly names <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
# [23:58] <hober> paulc: not many contentious changes slip through
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# [23:59] <hober> ... [discusses <time> element as an example]
# Session Close: Fri Nov 04 00:00:00 2011

The end :)