/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2011-11-04 / end

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1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 04 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
3. # [00:00] <hober> ... had questions over coffee about the relationship with the whatwg, about the wg size, etc
4. # [00:00] * Joins: plh (plh@63.145.238.4)
5. # [00:00] <hober> Topic: test suite status report
6. # [00:00] * Joins: Judy (jbrewer@128.30.52.169)
7. # [00:01] * Joins: LJW (LJW@63.145.238.4)
8. # [00:01] * ArtB slides http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTMLWG-DP/
9. # [00:01] <hober> The slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTMLWG-DP/
10. # [00:01] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Decision Policy (at www.w3.org)
11. # [00:01] <hober> krisk: lots of growth over last year in terms of submitted tests
12. # [00:01] <hober> krisk: we're pretty far ahead relative to other groups
13. # [00:02] <hober> ... [runs through slide describing the various sorts of tests in the suite already]
14. # [00:02] * Joins: paulc (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
15. # [00:02] * jgraham notes we are pretty far behind compared to implementations
16. # [00:02] <paulc> Decision Policy slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTMLWG-DP/#%281%29
17. # [00:02] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Decision Policy (at www.w3.org)
18. # [00:02] * Quits: HadleyBeeman (hadleybeem@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
19. # [00:03] * hober could someone post a link to krisk's slides?
20. # [00:03] <hober> ... over 106K submitted tests
21. # [00:03] * Joins: JMR (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
22. # [00:04] <hober> ... participation in tf is up since last tpac
23. # [00:04] <hober> ... public-html-testsuite@w3.org is the list; much less traffic than the main list
24. # [00:04] <hober> ... please send jgraham feedback on the test harness
25. # [00:05] <hober> ... [thanks to contributors]
26. # [00:05] <hober> ... tf meets biweekly on irc
27. # [00:06] * Joins: mav (mav@63.145.238.4)
28. # [00:06] * Joins: kensaku (kensaku@63.145.238.4)
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31. # [00:06] <hober> Topic: Change Proposal status
32. # [00:07] * hober could someone post a link to the cp status page?
33. # [00:08] <hober> stevef: there are a number of issues that are waiting for the chairs to evaluate the CPs
34. # [00:08] <hober> ... when will the evaulations occur?
35. # [00:08] * Quits: krisk (krisk@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
36. # [00:08] <hober> janina: at least one issue from pf
37. # [00:08] * Joins: krisk (krisk@63.145.238.4)
38. # [00:09] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@63.145.238.4) (Quit: MikeSmith)
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40. # [00:09] <anne> http://intertwingly.net/tmp/wgstatus.html
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42. # [00:09] * Joins: weinig (weinig@17.245.88.181)
43. # [00:09] <hober> paulc: [describes how issue status page is organized]
44. # [00:09] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Status (at intertwingly.net)
45. # [00:09] * hober thanks anne
46. # [00:09] <anne> ^^ displayed on screen
47. # [00:10] * Quits: kensaku (kensaku@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
48. # [00:11] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
49. # [00:11] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
50. # [00:11] <hober> rubys: we have reviewed one of the CPs of ISSUE-30, there are two others, one is being reviewed
51. # [00:11] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
52. # [00:11] * Parts: mav (mav@63.145.238.4) (Leaving)
53. # [00:12] <hober> paulc: chairs started to give themselves action items for this review in the last 3 or 4 weeks
54. # [00:12] <hober> ... all 3 of the chairs have been very busy
55. # [00:12] * Quits: davidb (davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb)
56. # [00:12] <hober> ... we have to start to move to make the deadline dates in our timeline
57. # [00:12] <hober> rubys: we're prioritizing ISSUE-30
58. # [00:13] <hober> paulc: we've moved into a mode of reviewing CPs so that the resultant surveys will be better
59. # [00:14] <hober> rubys: e.g. the issue-30 cp we reviewed is much improved after incorporating feedback
60. # [00:14] <hober> janina: pf wants to highlight issue-133
61. # [00:14] <hober> stevef: there should only be one CP for issue-133
62. # [00:14] <hober> paulc: there are two
63. # [00:15] <hober> stevef: one was withdrawn
64. # [00:15] <hober> rubys: we'll issue a call for consensus
65. # [00:15] * Joins: mav_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
66. # [00:15] <tantek> <aside> Hixie, re: search engines know SF is San Francisco, but they don't however know MV is Mountain View </aside>
67. # [00:15] <hober> paulc: we could issue the CfC tonight
68. # [00:16] <hober> ... & maybe take it off of the discussion list tomorrow
69. # [00:16] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@76.229.242.92)
70. # [00:17] <hober> stevef: is there an overall timeline for these issues?
71. # [00:17] <hober> paulc: no, but we want to get through them as fast as we can
72. # [00:17] <hober> ... ~250 open bugs to be processed by 12/31
73. # [00:18] <hober> ... [overview of early 2012 schedule]
74. # [00:18] * Quits: plh (plh@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
75. # [00:18] <hober> ... chairs are working to clear the backlog before the end of the year
76. # [00:19] <hober> Topic: Schedule status (AC report)
77. # [00:20] <hober> adrianb: there were 2 bugs opened, one against microdata and one against rdfa
78. # [00:20] <hober> ... based on TAG feedback that resulted in the html data tf being formed
79. # [00:20] <hober> ... is there an expectation that that tf will create feedback for the wg
80. # [00:21] <hober> ... if so, when will that happen
81. # [00:21] <adrianba> TF -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf
82. # [00:21] <pimpbot> Title: Html-data-tf - W3C Wiki (at www.w3.org)
83. # [00:21] <adrianba> bug 13100?
84. # [00:21] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13100 mike+html-wg-mailbot, P1, RESOLVED WONTFIX, TAG issue on HTML+RDFa and Microdata last call drafts
85. # [00:21] <adrianba> bug 13101?
86. # [00:21] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13101 mike, P1, RESOLVED NEEDSINFO, TAG issue on HTML+RDFa and Microdata last call drafts
87. # [00:21] <hober> paulc: [checks tag agenda for status of that tf]
88. # [00:22] <hober> rubys: we will hold that feedback to the same schedule as other feedback
89. # [00:22] <hober> paulc: the editors are required by our schedule to resolve all bugs by 12/31
90. # [00:22] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
91. # [00:23] <tcelik> why are there two bugs for this?
92. # [00:23] <hober> ... the bugs could just be closed if the tf report doesn't come in on time
93. # [00:23] <hober> tcelik: one per component
94. # [00:23] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@63.145.238.4)
95. # [00:23] <hober> ... the bugs could be turned into issues at any time between now and 1/14
96. # [00:23] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.145.238.4)
97. # [00:24] <hober> s/adrianb/adrianba/
98. # [00:24] <hober> rubys: we will remind the tag of the schedule
99. # [00:24] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
100. # [00:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
101. # [00:24] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
102. # [00:24] <hober> ACTION: paulc to contact the TAG [noah, jeni] to find out the status of the html data tf
103. # [00:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
104. # [00:24] * RRSAgent records action 1
105. # [00:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-205 - Contact the TAG [noah, jeni] to find out the status of the html data tf [on Paul Cotton - due 2011-11-10].
106. # [00:25] * Quits: stearns (anonymous@63.145.238.4) (Quit: stearns)
107. # [00:25] * Quits: jihye (jihye0525.@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving)
108. # [00:26] <hober> tcelik: the bugs are talking about what the w3c should or shouldn't do, not what this wg should do
109. # [00:26] * Joins: jmr (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
110. # [00:26] <hober> rubys: we will require concrete change proposals
111. # [00:26] * Joins: jihye (jihye@63.145.238.4)
112. # [00:26] <hober> tcelik: a possible outcome is the wg could choose to stop publishing one of these specs
113. # [00:26] <hober> rubys: a change proposal could take such a form
114. # [00:27] <hober> tcelik: couldn't these specs be done in a cg?
115. # [00:27] * Joins: vinny (5e080aef@207.192.75.252)
116. # [00:27] <hober> rubys: i don't know of any proposal to stop any of these specs
117. # [00:27] <hober> rubys: the bugs suggest merging the specs as one possible outcome
118. # [00:27] <hober> tcelik: this is at w3c scope, not wg scope
119. # [00:28] <hober> paulc: noah has asked to come to our meeting tomorrow
120. # [00:28] <hober> ... we can ask him for status then
121. # [00:28] <hober> Topic: Schedule status (from the chairs' report to the AC)
122. # [00:28] * Quits: vinny (5e080aef@207.192.75.252) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
123. # [00:29] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13558] input type=email should support friendly names <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0276.html> ** [Bug 13558] input type=email should support friendly names <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0274.html> ** [Bug 13570] why does input type=color support autocomplete? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0273.html> ** [Bug 13570]
124. # [00:29] <hober> paulc: we will step through the slides we presented to the AC this morning
125. # [00:29] * Quits: mav_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
126. # [00:29] <hober> MikeSmith: [explains what the AC is]
127. # [00:30] <hober> MikeSmith: for 3 or 4 years we've done reports to the AC about the WG's status
128. # [00:31] <hober> MikeSmith: last 2 presentations that we did focused on what we were doing to get to LC
129. # [00:31] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
130. # [00:31] * ArtB thinks Mike, Paul and Sam did a GREAT job at the AC meeting!
131. # [00:31] <hober> MikeSmith: we got to LC roughly on schedule
132. # [00:31] <hober> MikeSmith: ended LC round in August
133. # [00:31] <hober> ... reminded AC we publish several documents, not just the HTML5 spec
134. # [00:32] * Joins: plh (plh@63.145.238.4)
135. # [00:32] <hober> [applause for MikeSmith's hard work publishing our specs]
136. # [00:32] <hober> MikeSmith: [list of our publications]
137. # [00:32] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
138. # [00:33] <hober> ... told the AC about the author view of the spec (important to the TAG)
139. # [00:33] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@71.21.195.70)
140. # [00:33] <hober> ... Hixie had to make many edits to the spec to make the author view possible
141. # [00:34] * Quits: gang (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
142. # [00:34] * Quits: jmr (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
143. # [00:34] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@76.229.242.92) (Quit: miketaylr)
144. # [00:34] <hober> ... [goes through slide describing bug status & stats]
145. # [00:35] <hober> paulc: the wgstatus page gives you stats in fairly fine granularity
146. # [00:36] <hober> ... [reads outstanding bug status from wgstatus page]
147. # [00:38] <hober> MikeSmith: [goes through AC report slides re: last call issues, issues awaiting or that have received new information, formal objections, etc.]
148. # [00:38] <MikeSmith> q
149. # [00:38] <MikeSmith> q?
150. # [00:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
151. # [00:39] * hober could someone post a link to MikeSmith's slides?
152. # [00:39] <hober> ??: question for date for when new information is required
153. # [00:39] <hober> rubys: escalation deadline is 1/14
154. # [00:40] <tcelik> hober, slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTML5/
155. # [00:40] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Update (at www.w3.org)
156. # [00:40] * hober thanks tcelik
157. # [00:40] <MikeSmith> s/??/Cynthia_Shelley/
158. # [00:40] * hober thanks MikeSmith :)
159. # [00:40] <hober> paulc: you want to add new info as soon as possible
160. # [00:41] * anne is confused
161. # [00:42] * hober sorry, i didn't scribe that bit very well
162. # [00:42] * anne no with what Paul said; I wouldn't expect an editor to just close something wontfix if there's an actual problem
163. # [00:42] * karl 2012 Spec in CR, End of the world
164. # [00:42] * anne that seems really strange
165. # [00:43] <hober> paulc: I think the schedule was overly pessimistic
166. # [00:43] <hober> paulc: we might come out of last call after the spring ac meeting
167. # [00:44] <hober> ... an AC rep asked about the relationship between html wg and whatwg
168. # [00:44] <tcelik> relation of HTML5 to the WHATWG? isn't that an FAQ?
169. # [00:45] <hober> ... another ac rep asked about what the decision policy would look like in several years
170. # [00:45] * Joins: Marcos (Adium@63.145.238.4)
171. # [00:45] <hober> ... the question might be better put 'how will work on html.next proceed'
172. # [00:45] * Quits: plh (plh@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
173. # [00:45] <hober> ... jim bell from hp said nice things & complimented chairs/wg/etc
174. # [00:46] * MichaelC thought applause was for content of the presentation
175. # [00:46] <anne> tcelik: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#WHATWG_and_the_W3C_HTML_WG
176. # [00:46] <hober> rubys: we did get less flattering comment about the approachability of the process
177. # [00:46] <pimpbot> Title: FAQ - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
178. # [00:46] <hober> Topic: Last Week in HTML5
179. # [00:47] * Quits: jihye (jihye@63.145.238.4) (Connection reset by peer)
180. # [00:47] <tcelik> Thanks Anne - I thought I'd seen that somewhere.
181. # [00:47] <hober> paulc: sent out draft schedule for tomorrow
182. # [00:48] <myakura> Proposed Friday F2F schedule from Paul Cotton on 2011-11-03 (public-html@w3.org from November 2011) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Nov/0013.html
183. # [00:48] <pimpbot> Title: Proposed Friday F2F schedule from Paul Cotton on 2011-11-03 (public-html@w3.org from November 2011) (at lists.w3.org)
184. # [00:49] <hober> karl: a few months ago I suggested to Ian Jacobs that I post weekly summaries of activity in the html wg on the QA blog
185. # [00:49] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/QA/
186. # [00:49] <pimpbot> Title: W3C Blog (at www.w3.org)
187. # [00:49] <hober> karl: following html wg, the bug tracker, whatwg, webapps, etc
188. # [00:49] <hober> karl: not following css or svg
189. # [00:49] * MichaelC would love a text size increase on the screen
190. # [00:49] <hober> karl: anne from opera is doing something similar on the whatwg blog, following whatwg & webapps
191. # [00:49] * Quits: paulc (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
192. # [00:49] * Joins: jmr (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
193. # [00:50] <anne> http://blog.whatwg.org/
194. # [00:50] <pimpbot> Title: The WHATWG Blog (at blog.whatwg.org)
195. # [00:50] <hober> karl: thanks to the chairs for well writen decisions with links to relevant bugs etc
196. # [00:50] <hober> karl: this blog takes about an afternoon each week
197. # [00:51] <hober> ... i don't cover everything happening on the open web platform
198. # [00:51] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/QA/archive/open_web/
199. # [00:51] <pimpbot> Title: Open Web - W3C Blog - Category Archives (at www.w3.org)
200. # [00:51] <hober> ... would love to know if this is useful
201. # [00:52] <hober> cynthia: i find it useful
202. # [00:52] <hober> ArtB: I read it & anne's as well, both useful
203. # [00:52] * Quits: mark (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
204. # [00:52] <hober> rubys: lots of cross links between the two
205. # [00:52] * Quits: jmr (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
206. # [00:53] <hober> adrianba: proposal: in the telcon agenda, the chairs could point at the most recent post
207. # [00:53] * ArtB there is also http://html5weekly.com/
208. # [00:53] <hober> ACTION: rubys to ensure the weekly telcon agendas contain a link to the latest post in karl's series
209. # [00:53] * RRSAgent records action 2
210. # [00:53] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
211. # [00:53] <trackbot> Created ACTION-206 - Ensure the weekly telcon agendas contain a link to the latest post in karl's series [on Sam Ruby - due 2011-11-10].
212. # [00:53] <hober> stevef: please also post the summaries to public-html
213. # [00:53] * jgraham comments that the site is less ugly than the WHATWG blog
214. # [00:54] <hober> karl: ok, will post full text & link
215. # [00:56] * MichaelC the JF mantra :)
216. # [00:57] * Joins: hober2 (ted@173.255.247.253)
217. # [00:57] <pimpbot> planet: Tantek: #TPAC2011: iterating on an HTML working group change proposal for an enhanced #HTML5 <time> element: http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/time_element <http://tantek.com/2011/307/t7/tpac2011-html-proposal-enhanced-html5-time-element>
218. # [00:57] <hober2> ScribeNick: hober2
219. # [00:57] <hober2> [various requests for subscription options, twitter, rss, etc]
220. # [00:58] <hober2> hadley: could it have its own twitter account?
221. # [00:58] <hober2> karl: yes
222. # [00:58] <tcelik> +1 to what James is saying
223. # [00:59] <hober2> jgraham: these posts should have some of the "inside baseball"
224. # [00:59] <hober2> jgraham: developers can't keep up with the email lists
225. # [00:59] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13558] input type=email should support friendly names <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0279.html> ** [Bug 13392] i18n-ISSUE-72: BOM as preferred encoding declaration <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0278.html>
226. # [00:59] <tcelik> +1 to transparency
227. # [00:59] * Joins: jihye (jihye@63.145.238.4)
228. # [00:59] <hober2> rubys: don't want it to be a sleep-inducing sanitized press release
229. # [01:00] <hober2> Topic: Teleconferences
230. # [01:00] <tcelik> rrsagent, pointer
231. # [01:00] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-irc#T23-54-46
232. # [01:00] * Quits: hober (ted@174.143.153.77) (Ping timeout)
233. # [01:00] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
234. # [01:00] <hober2> cynthia: can we have more topical discussions on the telcon?
235. # [01:01] <hober2> rubys: yes, we have an "other business" section for this
236. # [01:01] <karl> ACTION: karl to create a twitter account for the Open Web last week
237. # [01:01] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
238. # [01:01] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - karl
239. # [01:01] * RRSAgent records action 3
240. # [01:01] <hober2> rubys: we've never run over
241. # [01:01] * Quits: dowan (forty4@63.145.238.4) (Quit: dowan)
242. # [01:01] * Joins: dowan (forty4@63.145.238.4)
243. # [01:01] <hober2> rubys: so we can use that time to help people get caught up with what's going on
244. # [01:02] <hober2> richardschwerdtfe: can you get Hixie to call into the telecons?
245. # [01:02] <hober2> rubys: no
246. # [01:02] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
247. # [01:03] <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
248. # [01:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ1
249. # [01:03] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
250. # [01:03] <hober2> rubys: different people have different work styles [etc.]
251. # [01:03] <hober2> rubys: had a useful f2f discussion with Hixie today
252. # [01:03] <hober2> MikeSmith: Hixie is available on RIC, you can ping him if you have a question
253. # [01:04] <karl> s/RIC/IRC/
254. # [01:04] <hober2> rubys: we would need to convince him that it would be worth it to join the call
255. # [01:04] <hober2> [discussion of timliness of pinging Hixie on IRC]
256. # [01:05] <hober2> mjs: there are people in the wg who are more comfortable with different kinds of interactions
257. # [01:05] <hober2> mjs: some prefer the mailing list, some irc, some telecons
258. # [01:05] <tcelik> indeed. this is why I publish my communication preferences: http://tantek.com/w/CommunicationProtocols
259. # [01:05] <pimpbot> Title: tantek / CommunicationProtocols (at tantek.com)
260. # [01:05] <hober2> mjs: the chairs try to bridge between these different kind of people
261. # [01:06] <hober2> richardschwerdtfe: asked you for a tech review 6 weeks ago
262. # [01:06] <hober2> mjs: it's difficult to schedule a detailed tech review, it needs large block of uninteruppted time
263. # [01:06] * Quits: JF (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
264. # [01:07] * Quits: weinig (weinig@17.245.88.181) (Quit: weinig)
265. # [01:07] <hober2> rubys: the schedule has timeouts so that we can proceed even if we don't hear back from people
266. # [01:08] <hober2> mjs: the decision policy goes with the cp that draws the weakest objections, and i try to make sure that apple's position is stated in surveys
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268. # [01:09] <hober2> [bits i missed re: the chairs' role in reviewing change proposals]
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270. # [01:10] <hober2> rubys: after you submit a proposal, you can still change it
271. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
272. # [01:10] <hober2> richardschwerdtfe: i'm trying to avoid a 11th hour counter change proposal
273. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> richardschwerdtfe: we tried to reach Hixie and did didn't get any feedback
274. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> ... Charles didn't hear back from him
275. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> sam: You got your response today
276. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> richardschwerdtfe: but we don't want to have to wait 6 weeks next time
277. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> mjs: you shouldn't wait six weeks to submit it
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283. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> sam: we are ajourned
284. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
285. # [01:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
286. # [01:12] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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289. # [01:13] <tantek> btw
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291. # [01:13] * tantek is proposing a in-n-out breakout session at 17:30-0700
292. # [01:13] <tantek> (in ~20min)
293. # [01:14] <tantek> especially for non-locals who haven't had an in-n-out experience.
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342. # [01:59] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14690] <a> should be allowed as a child of <dl> Current browsers allow this already. A semantic use case is file downlads <dl><a href="filename1.pdf"><dt>Filename</dt><dd>description of file</dd><dd>filetype</dd></a>etc...</dl>. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0280.html>
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384. # [04:01] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0281.html>
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431. # [07:34] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14364] appcache: Add an API to make appcache support caching specific URLs dynamically <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0283.html> ** [Bug 14260] <track> "text tracks ready" and HTMLMediaElement.readyState <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0282.html>
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435. # [08:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 12715] When used to include data blocks (as opposed to scripts), the data must be embedded inline <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0286.html> ** [Bug 14526] WF2: When adding filenames to the data set, should there be normalization of decomposed forms? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0285.html> ** [Bug 12715] When used to include data blocks (as opposed to scripts)
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441. # [10:05] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14693] New: \ rewriting in URLs never happens? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0287.html>
442. # [11:05] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14260] <track> "text tracks ready" and HTMLMediaElement.readyState <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0288.html>
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444. # [12:05] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0289.html>
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446. # [12:35] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13240] Consider replacing <time> with <data> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0290.html>
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448. # [13:06] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14575] <track> Spec is confused about which edge the text position starts from <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0291.html>
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488. # [17:01] <pimpbot> planet: Henri Sivonen: HTML5 Parser-Based View Source Syntax Highlighting <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/view-source/>
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492. # [17:06] * ArtB wonders if http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011 will be tweaked this morning or is it considered "solid"?
493. # [17:06] <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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504. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.webmonkey.com/2011/11/w3c-adds-time-element-back-to-html5/
505. # [17:11] <pimpbot> Title: W3C Adds Time Element Back to HTML5 Webmonkey Wired.com (at www.webmonkey.com)
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509. # [17:14] * stpeter is monitoring remotely and will arrive when done at the TAG meeting, please do let me know if you need me to come over more quickly
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528. # [17:20] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-irc#T16-14-53
529. # [17:20] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-irc#T16-14-53
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538. # [17:22] <cyns> scribe:cyns
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547. # [17:25] <cyns> TOPIC: Dialog element
548. # [17:27] <cyns> TOPIC: Issue 133 Dialog
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565. # [17:30] <cyns> We have only one change proposal on issue 133, and the righ next step is to do a call for consensus
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574. # [17:30] <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
575. # [17:30] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-133: Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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578. # [17:30] <hober> the proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-133
579. # [17:30] <pimpbot> Title: User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-133 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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581. # [17:31] * dsinger testing…please ignore
582. # [17:31] <eliot> all issues: http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
583. # [17:31] <pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)
584. # [17:31] * MichaelC test, seeing nothing, please repaste and repaste :)
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589. # [17:33] <cyns> RESOLUTION: do a call for consensus on issue 133
590. # [17:33] <cyns> TOPIC: Issue 30 Longdesc
591. # [17:34] * hober this topic might take too long for this meeting, why don't we just minute a link to the previous discussions? :)
592. # [17:34] * MichaelC aria-describedat
593. # [17:34] <cyns> JS: earlier this week PF decided to do a small aria.next release on a or short cycle and include aria-describedat in that release.
594. # [17:34] <dsinger> issue-30?
595. # [17:34] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-30
596. # [17:34] <trackbot> ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- open
597. # [17:34] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
598. # [17:34] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-30: Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
599. # [17:35] <cyns> JS: accessibility TF has been thinking about asking for longdesc to apply to tables in addition to images
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601. # [17:35] <cyns> JS: that would replace @summary, and would allow AT and non-AT users to get the info without it being forced on them
602. # [17:36] <cyns> JS: we're concerned that there is still some misunderstanding withitn the wg about why some of the counter-proposals are not ok with task force
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604. # [17:36] <cyns> PC: How does aria-describedat impact issue 30?
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606. # [17:36] <cyns> JS: it doesn't, but is a longer term solution
607. # [17:37] <cyns> JF: expanding on all 3 points...
608. # [17:37] <cyns> JF: we sat down and defined the user requirement and looked at possible solutions
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610. # [17:37] <cyns> JF: user interaction... for some users providign extra info on complex objects is important
611. # [17:38] <cyns> JF: discoverability is also important, and it needs to be actionable
612. # [17:38] <cyns> JF: that's the interaction in UA for longdesc
613. # [17:38] <cyns> JF: need HTML markup in the altenrative after you navigate to it
614. # [17:38] <cyns> JF: real problem is users agent support
615. # [17:39] <cyns> JF: longdesc has been abused in the past, and is a mess. but it's the best we have right now, and it supports the user needs
616. # [17:39] <cyns> JF: aria-describedby is not discoverable, it just gets read, no way to choose
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618. # [17:40] <cyns> JF: only exposed to accessibility APIs, not there for non-AT usres, such as those with cognitive issues
619. # [17:40] <cyns> JF: describedby is flattened to a string, markup is gone in teh accessibility apis, because those apis don't support html markup
620. # [17:40] <cyns> JF: we've talked about introducing aria-describedat that would have a URL, and solve the use case
621. # [17:42] <cyns> JF: longdesc doesn't put a visual encumbrance on the graphical layer, which is an imporant use case for business. we could put it in the chrome, but browsers are trying to have less chrome. suggest a user preference to make longdesc indication visible
622. # [17:43] <cyns> JF: looking ot introduce new attribute in aria, but there is a lot of work before it's working for real users. while we're doing that, we ask that you leave longdesc alone until aria-describedat is ready.
623. # [17:43] * karl has the feeling the longdesc looks like a footnote, annotation mechanism. a reference to another piece of text information.
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625. # [17:44] <cyns> PC: you are not proposing any revisions to longdesc change proposal.
626. # [17:44] <cyns> JF: that is correct
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628. # [17:44] <cyns> PC: you're proposing a parallel aria solution, but don't belive it's germaine to issue 30 right now
629. # [17:45] <cyns> JF: important that we understand why aria-descibedby doesn't work for this use case.
630. # [17:45] <cyns> PC: are you proposing to get rid of describedby
631. # [17:45] * MichaelC prefers to refer to issues with aria-describedby as limits to its use cases, not flaws
632. # [17:45] * MichaelC aria-describedat is complementary to address additional use cases
633. # [17:45] <cyns> JF: no, it's a different use case
634. # [17:46] <cyns> JS: yes, it is not impactful at this time
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636. # [17:46] <cyns> PC: third item you wanted to discuss was the counter-arguments to longdesc based on aria-describedby
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639. # [17:47] <JF> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Jfoliot/longdescresponse
640. # [17:47] <pimpbot> Title: A11yTF/longdescresponse - W3C Wiki (at www.w3.org)
641. # [17:47] <cyns> JF: aria-describedby lacks discoverability and actionability, and gets flattened in the accessiblity apis
642. # [17:48] <cyns> PC: where is the argument you're trying to counter?
643. # [17:48] <cyns> JF: Jonas' proposal to keep longdesc non-conforming and chairs decision
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647. # [17:51] <cyns> PC: your target is the rationale section of Jonas' proposal
648. # [17:51] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
649. # [17:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html karl
650. # [17:51] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
651. # [17:52] <cyns> JF: hearing that there is pain with longdesc, we're building a solution in aria, but please leave longdesc alone while we have time to do that right
652. # [17:52] <cyns> PC: is there any reason not to push issue 30 forward?
653. # [17:52] <cyns> JF: no
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656. # [17:53] <eliot> Jonas proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/DeprecateLongdesc
657. # [17:53] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/DeprecateLongdesc - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
658. # [17:54] <cyns> MC: there is also Matthew's proposal, which also asks to have longdesc non-conforming
659. # [17:55] <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/DeprecateLongdesc
660. # [17:55] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/DeprecateLongdesc - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
661. # [17:55] <cyns> PC: a survey would come down to whether aria-describedby is adequate
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664. # [17:56] <cyns> MC: the first longdesc proposal didn't list all the use cases, but this one includes several new use cases. the counter proposal say that use cases can be satisfy the use cases. You are arguing that aria-describedby doesn't meet the use cases
665. # [17:57] <cyns> PC: you need to copy all of this into the change proposal
666. # [17:58] <cyns> JF: what I just wrote is not a change proposal, it's a rebuttle to another change proposal
667. # [17:59] <cyns> PC: we've asked the authors of the counter proposal to list why describedby works. I heard MC asking you to list why it doesn't.
668. # [17:59] <cyns> JF: it does
669. # [17:59] <cyns> PC: I'm not seeing it in the doc
670. # [18:00] <cyns> SF: are the chairs just saying to copy the stuff from wiki to the change proposal?
671. # [18:00] <cyns> MC: yes
672. # [18:00] <cyns> PC: yes
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674. # [18:00] <cyns> PC: when we go to survey, we want a section with responses to counter-proposal
675. # [18:00] <cyns> JF: we will make the chagne
676. # [18:01] <laura> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc/AlternativesAreNotViableSolutions
677. # [18:01] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc/AlternativesAreNotViableSolutions - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
678. # [18:01] <cyns> PC: do you see aria-describedat having any impact on any of the change proposals
679. # [18:01] <cyns> JS: not at this time
680. # [18:01] <laura> Suggested Alternatives Are Not Viable Solutions
681. # [18:02] <laura> aria-describedat reinvents the wheel.
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683. # [18:02] <laura> ARIA should be used to augment the available semantics of HTML as necessary, not to duplicate a basic mechanism that has already previously been created.
684. # [18:02] <laura> aria-describedat is vaporware. It currently does not provide external reference functionality. longdesc provides it now.
685. # [18:02] <laura> aria-describedat would be strictly assistive technology oriented. Whereas @longdesc has even been implemented in Opera, iCab etc.
686. # [18:02] <laura> aria-describedat is not backwards compatible.
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688. # [18:02] <laura> The only pain that there is with longdesc is the pain of having to reinstate it into HTML5.
689. # [18:02] <cyns> PC: Actions are: TF to provide the new info in the change proposal, chairs contineu review to get to survey
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691. # [18:03] <cyns> TOPIC: issue-164 hgroup
692. # [18:03] <laura> The information is already there.
693. # [18:03] <Stevef> hgroup replace proposal http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hgroup
694. # [18:03] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/hgroup - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
695. # [18:03] <Stevef> hgroup remove http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/dropHgroup
696. # [18:03] <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/dropHgroup - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
697. # [18:03] * stpeter asks for an agenda check to see if he's needed yet
698. # [18:04] <cyns> SF: use case of hiding subheadings from TOC is not compelling
699. # [18:05] <anne> so instead of a new element to address the use case we add a new element?
700. # [18:05] <cyns> SF: Lauchland Hunt provided some patterns that hgroup would fit. I found other ways to create that pattern, including 'subline' semantic
701. # [18:05] * anne is amused
702. # [18:06] <cyns> PC: 11731 proposes to chagne hgroup to something else, 11828 is to get rid of it.
703. # [18:07] <cyns> PC: editor rejected, but there is no change proposal to leave it as is.
704. # [18:08] <cyns> AVK: some people stopped caring about doing the change proposal process
705. # [18:08] <cyns> AVK: it's too heavyweight
706. # [18:08] <anne> i didn't say that cyns
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708. # [18:09] <cyns> sorry, please correct it to what you said
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710. # [18:09] * karl anne you can fix it :)
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714. # [18:10] <cyns> AVK: I don't get saying that we don't need an element for that use case and then addign a different elements
715. # [18:10] <karl> s/addign/adding/
716. # [18:10] <cyns> JF: was offering an additional idea for discussion. maybe there is a reason to have it.
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720. # [18:11] * karl stpeter after the group discussion going on now
721. # [18:11] * stpeter karl thanks
722. # [18:12] <cyns> JF: I suggested it to get feedback. There some patterns where hiding a subline could be useful, but hgroup doesn't do that. It collapses the two headings into a single heading, which is confusing for accessiblity scenarios
723. # [18:12] <cyns> SR: you wrote the proposal to get discussion, which didn't happen. If you withdraw it, since you can live with the other proposal, we'll do a call for consensus.
724. # [18:13] <cyns> SF: I withdraw the subline proposal.
725. # [18:14] <cyns> PC: process point. What happens when we do a survey and people object because they want to keep hgroup?
726. # [18:14] <cyns> SR: they can do a change proposal with their survey response.
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729. # [18:14] * karl stpeter when you come in the room, we can start uri processing
730. # [18:14] <cyns> PC: which will put us back in the state of having two proposals
731. # [18:15] <cyns> TOPIC: short update on the status of the time element
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733. # [18:15] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
734. # [18:15] * stpeter karl ok I am heading over now
735. # [18:16] <cyns> PC: do we want one issue on time and a separate issue on data?
736. # [18:16] <cyns> SR: some people were happy to have both time and data
737. # [18:18] <cyns> SR: revert request asked have everything put back
738. # [18:19] <cyns> PC: we need change proposal
739. # [18:19] <cyns> PC: Tantik's proposal will be about time, and may or may not include data
740. # [18:19] <cyns> SR: there was a response in the bug
741. # [18:20] <cyns> PC: there is further dialog
742. # [18:21] <cyns> PC: there is a call for change proposals closing today, Nov 4.
743. # [18:21] <cyns> TOPIC issue-180
744. # [18:21] <cyns> TOPIC: issue-179
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748. # [18:22] <cyns> PC: av_param
749. # [18:23] <cyns> ACTION: Paul confirm that chagne proposal for av_param is still active
750. # [18:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
751. # [18:23] <trackbot> Created ACTION-207 - Confirm that chagne proposal for av_param is still active [on Paul Cotton - due 2011-11-11].
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754. # [18:23] <cyns> TOPIC: URI/IRI
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756. # [18:24] <cyns> PS: want to figure out a path forward on this issue
757. # [18:24] <cyns> PS: sent out a message last night collating my thoughts.
758. # [18:24] <cyns> PS: there is an IRI working group at the IETF, which is updating the core IRI spec.
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760. # [18:25] <cyns> PS: that should be done early next year
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762. # [18:25] <pimpbot> changes: sam: Call for Consensus on 133 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0019.html>
763. # [18:25] <cyns> PS: that is refernced from the HTML spec.
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765. # [18:25] <cyns> PS: there is text in html about parsing "urls" and some aspects of that are related to IRIs, and parts of it are pre-processing
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770. # [18:27] <cyns> PS: there is little energy for doing this work in IRI workign group. perhaps its better for this to happen here.
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775. # [18:29] * tantek wonders which exact URL/URI/IRI spec we're talking about, per: http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-pieces
776. # [18:29] <cyns> karl: would it be ok with the IETF group if there was a link from the IRI spec to the parsing spec?
777. # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: How many ways can you slice a URL and name the pieces? - Tantek (at tantek.com)
778. # [18:30] <cyns> karl: implementors are going to be looking at the html spec, not the iri spec
779. # [18:30] <cyns> karl: people doing libraries would have a link directly to the parsing spec
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781. # [18:31] <karl> s/karl: implementors/stpeter: implementors/
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784. # [18:31] <cyns> AVK: each client is only using one library
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786. # [18:32] <cyns> AVK: people in opera implemeting iri spec currently don't need to look at html spc
787. # [18:32] <eliot> issue 56:
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790. # [18:32] <eliot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56
791. # [18:32] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-56: Bring "URLs" section/definition and IRI specification in alignment. - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
792. # [18:32] <cyns> PC: The chairs decison adopts the change proposal to restore the text
793. # [18:33] <cyns> PC: this can be revisited if there is new info, such as IETF creating a doc. PS said the document is not progressing
794. # [18:33] * Julian notes that the restored text is known to be incorrect, no matter how you look at it
795. # [18:34] <tantek> Julian, example and citation needed - incorrect according to what?
796. # [18:34] * MichaelC strange, smelling campfire smoke from the ventilation system
797. # [18:34] <cyns> PC: would the html wg have a separate parsing spec, and anyone could refer to it, including IETF?
798. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> q?
799. # [18:34] <Julian> tantek, it doesn't describe what UAs do
800. # [18:35] <Julian> tantek, it might be describing what *some* do
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814. # [18:36] <tlr> (discussion about preprocessing vs parsing)
815. # [18:36] <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
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818. # [18:37] <tlr> anne: only care about Web context?
819. # [18:37] <tlr> stpeter: SIP
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821. # [18:37] <tlr> … other protocols as well
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827. # [18:37] <MichaelC> scribe: tlr
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829. # [18:37] <tlr> … liberal parsing of URIs might leak into other applications
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831. # [18:37] <tlr> … implicit concern that people seem to have had
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834. # [18:38] <tlr> anne: URLs leak all over the place; seems desirable to parse them all over the place
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836. # [18:38] <tlr> karl: document might surface or solve those issues
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838. # [18:38] <tlr> … but that's not what we're looking at right now
839. # [18:38] <tlr> … let's find agreement on how to proceed
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841. # [18:38] * tlr cyns, want the scribe back?
842. # [18:38] <tlr> stpeter: don't have one place that captures everything
843. # [18:39] <tlr> … some text in HTML5, delegated to Adam, Adam expanded, ...
844. # [18:39] <tlr> … from technical point, we don't have one place where we can talk about this
845. # [18:39] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14427] Investigate if click()'s click-in-progress should apply to user and/or script initiated clicks <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0296.html> ** [Bug 14427] Investigate if click()'s click-in-progress should apply to user and/or script initiated clicks <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0295.html> ** [Bug 13570] why does input type=color support autocomplete? <
846. # [18:39] <tlr> … if more people who implement and care are around here, then perhaps do the work here
847. # [18:39] <tantek> Julian, sounds like hand waving. Your assertion "restored text is known to be incorrect" is unactionable without providing at a minimum: 1. specific section of said "restored text", 2. either a) according to what other specification (citation needed), or b) example of a URI and an implementation that interprets it differently than the restored text. Please write that up and post it on the web (e.g. HTML WG wiki), otherwise "known to be incorrect" has no basis.
848. # [18:39] <tlr> paul: the issue is closed
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851. # [18:39] <tlr> … what you want to do is to reopen the issue that defines the parsing
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854. # [18:40] <tlr> … the way you characterized it, you have a man-power problem
855. # [18:40] <tlr> … all that we can do is ask whether there's anyone in this WG who can take on the task
856. # [18:40] <Julian> tantek, it's in the WG's archives, but I currently don't have the energy to research.
857. # [18:40] <tlr> … somebody could propose an editor's draft that can sit along the HTML5 spec
858. # [18:40] <tlr> Mike5: willing to take that on, and work with Adam
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860. # [18:41] <tlr> … I will edit the document myself if I have to
861. # [18:41] <tlr> stpeter: I will edit the document myself if I have to
862. # [18:41] <tlr> … but we're not supposed to have ADs edit documents
863. # [18:41] * tlr cyns, scribe back?
864. # [18:41] <tlr> ScribeNick: cyns
865. # [18:41] <tantek> Julian - "don't have the energy to research" is a common problem with "[email] archives" (poor searchability), hence my request for you to post a write-up on the HTML WG wiki.
866. # [18:41] <cyns> PS: maybe we can get enough people together and get this done
867. # [18:42] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
868. # [18:42] <cyns> PC: lets assume we have technical agreement on what needs to happen, we still have a clock ticking on last call 1
869. # [18:42] * Quits: tantek (tantek@63.145.238.4) (Quit: tantek)
870. # [18:43] <cyns> PC: let's get the material out into a separate document, then decide if people want to open a separate issue on it.
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872. # [18:43] <Julian> tantek, I realize that you prefer wiki-over-email, but replicating a one-year-old mail thread into a wiki seems like a waste of time to me; I can try to find the relevant mails and will post pointers to the mailing list (where they will be picked up by the Tracker)
873. # [18:44] <cyns> AVK: several years ago, we moved this into a separate draft, and IETF asked us to remove it and they would right a new one
874. # [18:44] <tlr> mike5: we won't nuke the document again
875. # [18:44] <cyns> MS: we will not remove this document again if we're asked to.
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877. # [18:44] <cyns> PS: let's concentrate on the problem moving forward.
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880. # [18:45] <cyns> action item on Peter and Mike Smith due november 19
881. # [18:45] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
882. # [18:45] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
883. # [18:45] * Joins: YW (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
884. # [18:46] <Julian> Tantek: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0036.html
885. # [18:46] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Change proposal for ISSUE-56 from Roy T. Fielding on 2010-07-15 (public-html@w3.org from July 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
886. # [18:46] <cyns> TO
887. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> trackbot, status?
888. # [18:46] * trackbot knows about the following 29 users: Lachlan, Matthew, Larry, Michael[tm], Doug, Gregory, Philippe, Everett, Julian, Laura, Shawn, Cynthia, Henri, Maciej, James, Adrian, Frank, Richard, Ben, Joshue, Kris, Manu, Sam, Michael, Ian, Paul, Janina, David, Steve
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892. # [18:47] <cyns> PC: Jeff Jaffe will be visiting us at 11:30.
893. # [18:47] <cyns> PC: recessed until 11:30
894. # [18:47] <eliot> present+ eliot
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897. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> action: Michael[tm] to sync up with Peter St. Andre on URL processing draft and report back in two weeks
898. # [18:48] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
899. # [18:48] <trackbot> Created ACTION-208 - Sync up with Peter St. Andre on URL processing draft and report back in two weeks [on Michael[tm] Smith - due 2011-11-11].
900. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> action-208 due 2011-11-18
901. # [18:49] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-208.
902. # [18:49] <trackbot> ACTION-208 Sync up with Peter St. Andre on URL processing draft and report back in two weeks due date now 2011-11-18
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906. # [18:49] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-irc
907. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
908. # [18:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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923. # [18:55] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Change how nested clicks are prevented to also prevent click() inside a regular onclick=''. (part 2) (whatwg r6818) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0022.html> ** hixie: Change how nested clicks are prevented to also prevent click() inside a regular onclick=''. (whatwg r6817) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0021.html> ** sam: Call for consensus on issue 164 <http:/
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938. # [19:09] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14427] Investigate if click()'s click-in-progress should apply to user and/or script initiated clicks <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0297.html>
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962. # [19:26] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
963. # [19:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
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965. # [19:27] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
966. # [19:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html karl
967. # [19:28] <karl> RRSAgent, make logs public
968. # [19:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, karl
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970. # [19:28] * ArtB wonders if RRSAgent had a major hiccup
971. # [19:29] <karl> I think there is an issue :) and a big one indeed
972. # [19:29] * ArtB notes DAP had an RRSAgent issue - it apparently crashed this morn in the middle of the meeting ...
973. # [19:30] * ArtB karl - is HTML.Next still on the agenda for 11:30 today?
974. # [19:30] <karl> ArtB, yes it seems
975. # [19:30] <karl> it should start in a couple of minutes
976. # [19:31] * ArtB thanks karl!
977. # [19:31] <karl> oopsie even the irc txt log is gone http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-irc
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979. # [19:36] * MichaelC thinks rrsagent was instructed to not start a new log at midnight UTC yesterday, and never re-instantiated for today
980. # [19:36] * MichaelC so today's minutes going into http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-irc
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982. # [19:36] * MichaelC saved a snapshot of today up to now just in case there was outage
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989. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
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991. # [19:39] <MikeSmith> Topic: W3C Document license
992. # [19:39] <MikeSmith> Jeff: discussion of the document license predates my arrival at W3C
993. # [19:39] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14696] New: This is no longer true: "The end date is encoded as one day after the last date of the event because in the iCalendar format, end dates are exclusive, not inclusive" — so remove ...value="2007-10-20">19... <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0299.html> ** [Bug 14696] This is no longer true: "The end date is encoded as one day after the last date of the event because in the iCalendar format,
994. # [19:39] <MikeSmith> ... so I urge others here to jump in and correct me if needed
995. # [19:40] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@63.145.238.4)
996. # [19:40] <MikeSmith> ... So, several years ago, the HTML WG determined that the W3C document license did not work for them
997. # [19:40] * Joins: KevinMarks (KevinMarks@63.145.238.4)
998. # [19:40] <MikeSmith> ... and the group came up with a list of 11 use cases that were not possible with the current W3C document license
999. # [19:40] * Joins: YW (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
1000. # [19:40] <MikeSmith> ... the chairs of the HTML WG then brought that list to the W3C Team
1001. # [19:41] * Quits: krisk (krisk@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
1002. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> ... and the W3C Team took that list of use cases to the W3C Advisory Committee
1003. # [19:41] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@63.145.238.4)
1004. # [19:41] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
1005. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> ... the W3C AC agreed with the majority of the use cases, but not with the use cases related to so-called "forking"
1006. # [19:42] * Joins: Ruinan (sunruinan@63.145.238.4)
1007. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> ... which put the Team sort of between a rock and a hard place
1008. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> ... it turned out that coming up a a suitable license was very difficult
1009. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> ... this task was handed over to the W3C PSIG
1010. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> ... which did an analysis and proposed a license that they believed covered 9 of the 11 use cases
1011. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> ... then later in 2010 we decided that we needed to try again
1012. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> ... and in the end we came up with 3 candidate licenses
1013. # [19:44] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
1014. # [19:44] <tlr> q+ marcos
1015. # [19:45] <MikeSmith> ... the three licenses try to address the use cases and at the same time address the AC's concerns about "forking"
1016. # [19:45] <MikeSmith> q?
1017. # [19:45] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
1018. # [19:45] <tlr> q+ marcos
1019. # [19:45] * Zakim sees marcos on the speaker queue
1020. # [19:45] <MikeSmith> ... I have not doubt that the PSIG left no stone unturned
1021. # [19:45] <MikeSmith> ... the chairs of the HTML WG created a poll
1022. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> ... in which they asked the group to consider the 3 PSIG-proposed licenses, and also 2 other more-permissive licenses
1023. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> ... the results of the poll were that a majority of the HTML WG members responded that they could not live with any of the 3 PSIG-proposed licenses
1024. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> ... for the other more-permissive licenses, the majority of the HTML WG responded to say that they could live with them, though there was a significant minority that said they could not
1025. # [19:47] * Quits: tantek (tantek_@63.145.238.4) (Quit: tantek)
1026. # [19:48] * Joins: DavidKim (DavidKim@63.145.238.4)
1027. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> Jeff: So, where we are at now is that we do not have any plans to change the W3C document license
1028. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> ... but in another decision, we did great Community Groups with a more permissive document license
1029. # [19:48] <plh> q?
1030. # [19:48] * Zakim sees marcos on the speaker queue
1031. # [19:48] * Quits: jamesn (jamesn@148.87.19.218) (Ping timeout)
1032. # [19:48] <hober> q+ anne
1033. # [19:48] * Zakim sees marcos, anne on the speaker queue
1034. # [19:49] * Joins: tantek (tantek@63.145.238.4)
1035. # [19:50] <MikeSmith> Marcos: we have seen an alternative solution, which is that editors publish their editor's drafts under "public domain" outside of the W3C
1036. # [19:50] <MikeSmith> Jeff: we are on record as supporting a permissive license
1037. # [19:50] * ArtB wonders if we can cap this discussion RSN and move back to the agenda
1038. # [19:50] <MikeSmith> ... but the Membership told us by an overwhelming majority (80%) is that when you are on the W3C Rec-track, they feel that needs to not be forkable
1039. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> Marcos: We have shared documents, and if the W3C doesn't provide a more permissive license, we are still going to be [publishing versions of the same specs outside of the W3C under a more permissive license]
1040. # [19:52] <KevinMarks> you can't prevent forking by fiat
1041. # [19:52] * Quits: igarashi (igarashi@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
1042. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> anne: it seems wrong to me that a secret club behind a Member-only wall say No to us and tell us what we can and cannot doe
1043. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> ... there is not opportunity for discourse there
1044. # [19:53] <KevinMarks> all you can prevent is the spec representing implementations that have forked it
1045. # [19:53] <dsinger> q?
1046. # [19:53] * Zakim sees marcos, anne on the speaker queue
1047. # [19:53] * Joins: igarashi (igarashi@63.145.238.4)
1048. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> Jeff: I hear what you are saying. There is no "opaque wall" if you are part of a Member org, though I understand that it's different if you are an Invited Experts
1049. # [19:54] <hober> q+ tantek
1050. # [19:54] * Zakim sees marcos, anne, tantek on the speaker queue
1051. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> [Jeff asks how many people in the room are IEs and how many are from Member orgs]
1052. # [19:54] * KevinMarks is uninvited and inexpert
1053. # [19:54] <hober> q- marcos
1054. # [19:54] * Zakim sees anne, tantek on the speaker queue
1055. # [19:54] <dsinger> q+
1056. # [19:54] * Zakim sees anne, tantek, dsinger on the speaker queue
1057. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> Jeff: The chartering of Activities go through the AC as well
1058. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> anne: The issue is that many of the members in the AC are not even members of this group
1059. # [19:55] <hober> ack anne
1060. # [19:55] * Zakim sees tantek, dsinger on the speaker queue
1061. # [19:55] <hober> ack tantek
1062. # [19:55] * Zakim sees dsinger on the speaker queue
1063. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> tantek: as a rep of one of those member companies, I can sympathize
1064. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> ... I've also been an invited expert
1065. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> .
1066. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> ... there is the entire AC that votes on these issues
1067. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> ... but if you look at the participants in this group
1068. # [19:57] <MikeSmith> ... I can firmly say that as a Member, Mozilla does support a forking license for the spec
1069. # [19:57] <MikeSmith> Jeff: part of my philosophy of change is to recognize where there are huge barriers to change, and to find other areas where the barriers are not huge, and work there
1070. # [19:58] <MikeSmith> ... so one of the reasons we create the Community Groups was to address this issue
1071. # [19:58] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.145.238.4)
1072. # [19:58] <MikeSmith> anne: It would be nice if we were given reasons for why the AC said No
1073. # [19:58] <MikeSmith> ... the AC is advisory
1074. # [19:59] <hober> ack dsinger
1075. # [19:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
1076. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> ... and if the Team feels that W3C should have a permissive license, the AC can be overruled
1077. # [19:59] <Kai> q+
1078. # [19:59] * Zakim sees Kai on the speaker queue
1079. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> DaveSinger: I think one rationale was that they want a single specification to reference
1080. # [20:00] * Joins: markw (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
1081. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> ... I don't think we would ever have a case where even if there is a moderately hostile fork, the W3C does not pursue enforcing the W3C document license
1082. # [20:00] <tantek> q+ to mention Mozilla's intent to use CGs
1083. # [20:00] * Zakim sees Kai, tantek on the speaker queue
1084. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> ... so the horse has already left the barn
1085. # [20:01] * Joins: LJW (LJW@63.145.238.4)
1086. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> Tim: one argument is, I want people to say that they are putting their time and work into the [common place at W3C] where we have gotten together to do the work
1087. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> ... and we are all committed to working together at W3C to work on our specs here, not planning to then take them off somewhere else
1088. # [20:02] <KevinMarks> the possibility of forking is what provides the social pressure to actually agree.
1089. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> Tim: the case with forking of code is different, whereas with standards, [the argument for forking] does not hold as well
1090. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> Tim: I think it's important to not fork but also important to have the right to fork
1091. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> ... so these are conflicting needs
1092. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> TIm: I agree with Dave Singer that the license [does not have effect on what actually happens in practice]
1093. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> ... so I'm not sure we need to continue spending a lot more energy on this
1094. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
1095. # [20:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
1096. # [20:04] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 04 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
1097. # [20:05] <hober> q?
1098. # [20:05] * Zakim sees Kai, tantek on the speaker queue
1099. # [20:05] * Joins: Iraj (irajs@63.145.238.4)
1100. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> ... we should be focusing on doing our actual spec work
1101. # [20:05] * Quits: mjs (mjs@63.145.238.4) (Quit: mjs)
1102. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> Sam: This is perhaps something we can address with HTML.Next
1103. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> ... so maybe we can focus on that constructively
1104. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> Kai: Companies have one very strong requirement, which is stability
1105. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> ... when you cannot rely on the standards to actually be standards, that is a huge issue
1106. # [20:06] * Joins: krisk (krisk@63.145.238.4)
1107. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> ... W3C through its process guarantees stability
1108. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> ... my recommendation to my own company is that we have to completely ignore anything that comes out of the WHATWG
1109. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> ... just breaking out of the process because you don't like it is [not good]
1110. # [20:08] * Quits: Iraj (irajs@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
1111. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> Jeff: I do not work for any of the companies that didn't support forking
1112. # [20:08] * Quits: DavidKim (DavidKim@63.145.238.4) (Quit: DavidKim)
1113. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> ... but I know some of the reasons that we given
1114. # [20:09] * Quits: Kangchan (chan@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Kangchan)
1115. # [20:09] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.145.238.4)
1116. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> Jeff: I heard some companies saying that they do not want forking because we want one Web
1117. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> ... they said they don't want to see the Web get fractured
1118. # [20:09] * Joins: Iraj (irajs@63.145.238.4)
1119. # [20:10] * hober i'd q+ tantek but he's already in there...
1120. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> ... for example, if some companies said they wanted a Web that has DRM features that are not part of a W3C standard
1121. # [20:10] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (hollobit@63.145.238.4)
1122. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> Jeff: I also agree with what David said, that maybe we need to do more educate, to help companies understand permissive licensing
1123. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> ... and I understand that Tim also supports doing such education
1124. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> tantek: we all want one Web
1125. # [20:11] * Quits: lgombos (Laszlo@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
1126. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> ... I think there are maybe some disagreements about how we get there
1127. # [20:11] * karl is not sure what everyone wants one web. Some companies would certainly prefer to capture it.
1128. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> ... in a past role, I was at Microsoft, and there was a standard called DVB-HTML
1129. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> ... and what happened to that standard?
1130. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> Jeff: It died.
1131. # [20:12] * karl s/what/that/
1132. # [20:12] <KevinMarks> lets not even mention WAP
1133. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> tantek: right. It's doomed to fail. In the long run , the one that survives in the one that's supported by reputation
1134. # [20:12] <markw> CE-HTML is very much alive in OIPF, HbbTV etc.
1135. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> ... I want to praise the W3C for the Community Groups
1136. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> ... it is our intent to develop the Fullscreen API in a Community Group with a forking license
1137. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> ... and it is more likely that for [new work we do] we are going to choose to pursue those in a Community Group
1138. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> Jeff: one small clarification, I was neither taking a position for or against forking licenses
1139. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> .
1140. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> ... I was sharing what I heard
1141. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> ... this is consensus-driven org
1142. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> ... we saw a consensus to provide a more permissive license for Community Groups
1143. # [20:15] <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
1144. # [20:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ1
1145. # [20:15] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 04 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
1146. # [20:15] * Quits: Iraj (irajs@63.145.238.4) (Connection reset by peer)
1147. # [20:15] * Joins: Iraj (irajs@63.145.238.4)
1148. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> ... but we did not yet see a consensus to provide a more permissive license for Working Groups
1149. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> ... but that could change and we could revisit it
1150. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
1151. # [20:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
1152. # [20:15] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 04 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
1153. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> meeting: HTML WG f2f
1154. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
1155. # [20:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
1156. # [20:16] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 04 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
1157. # [20:17] * ArtB would appreciate a link for what MikeSmith called the HTML.Next wiki
1158. # [20:17] <krisk> scribe: krisk
1159. # [20:17] <krisk> TOPIC: HTML.NEXT
1160. # [20:18] * Joins: jun_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
1161. # [20:18] <plh> --> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/next HTML next wiki
1162. # [20:18] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/next - W3C Wiki (at www.w3.org)
1163. # [20:18] * Joins: aizu (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
1164. # [20:18] * Joins: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org)
1165. # [20:18] <krisk> mikesmith: This meeting is to talk about what features we could add to the next version of html
1166. # [20:18] * Quits: jkiss (jkiss@63.145.238.4) (Connection reset by peer)
1167. # [20:18] * Joins: jkiss (jkiss@63.145.238.4)
1168. # [20:18] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
1169. # [20:19] <krisk> samruby: the wiki is a location to store and track items we could potentially do in HTML.NEXT
1170. # [20:19] <krisk> ...this was last updated in june
1171. # [20:19] * Joins: magnus (magnus@63.145.238.4)
1172. # [20:19] <krisk> tantek: when we re-charted can we move the wiki?
1173. # [20:20] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
1174. # [20:20] <krisk> paulcotton: Can you give a rational why to move?
1175. # [20:20] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
1176. # [20:20] <krisk> tantek: it'll lower the cost to collaborate with other w3c groups (less logins..etc..)
1177. # [20:21] <krisk> mikesmith: all you need is a w3c user/password for w3c wiki's
1178. # [20:21] <krisk> ...though html requires a HTML WG account to update the html wiki
1179. # [20:21] * plh wonders if this discussion is going to turn into a wiki discussion...
1180. # [20:22] <krisk> karl: people were not comfortable using the wiki
1181. # [20:22] <krisk> samruby: Is the content updated on the HTML.NEXT wiki?
1182. # [20:22] * Joins: tlrobinson (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
1183. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> a shorter list of possible HTML.Next features from my recent presentation: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTML5/#(15)
1184. # [20:23] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Update (at www.w3.org)
1185. # [20:23] <krisk> davidslinger: these are all good items - though we should also start to add issues that we have with the current HTML5 spec to this wiki
1186. # [20:23] <karl> s/karl: people/karl: the main wiki was initially created for SW community, "forked" by QA WG, then more general including documentation. Some people/
1187. # [20:23] <krisk> Mikesmith: we have a bugzilla to track html.next bugs
1188. # [20:23] <tantek> per mikesmith's point about w3c's wiki being more open/accessible - I see that as an advantage.
1189. # [20:23] <krisk> slinger: can we add a link to this from the wiki?
1190. # [20:24] <krisk> samruby: I'm not concerned with where it's at rather that we have it all in one place
1191. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/describecomponents.cgi?product=HTML.next
1192. # [20:24] <pimpbot> Title: Components for HTML.next (at www.w3.org)
1193. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML.next&component=default&;resolution=---
1194. # [20:24] <pimpbot> Title: Bug List (at www.w3.org)
1195. # [20:25] <krisk> jamesgraham: to add some of these we'll need components
1196. # [20:25] * ArtB notes http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/describecomponents.cgi?product=HTML.next is currently empty
1197. # [20:25] <pimpbot> Title: Components for HTML.next (at www.w3.org)
1198. # [20:26] * ArtB ooops; I'm wrong on the empty part
1199. # [20:26] <krisk> shelly: I have another feature - make sure that all aria roles are in the spec
1200. # [20:26] * Quits: KevinMarks (KevinMarks@63.145.238.4) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
1201. # [20:26] <krisk> samruby: can you either open a bug or on the wik - indifferent which type, but it should exist
1202. # [20:26] * Joins: KevinMarks (KevinMarks@63.145.238.4)
1203. # [20:27] <krisk> anne: components are in webapps, but it should use the parser so it should be html
1204. # [20:27] <krisk> plh: web intents - wants a new element, html may want to look into this as well for HTML.NEXT
1205. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> q?
1206. # [20:28] * Zakim sees Kai, tantek on the speaker queue
1207. # [20:28] <tantek> q-
1208. # [20:28] * Zakim sees Kai on the speaker queue
1209. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> q+ to say we don't need the intents element anyway
1210. # [20:28] * Zakim sees Kai, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
1211. # [20:28] <krisk> samruby: they are creating an new element?
1212. # [20:28] <Kai> ack kai
1213. # [20:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
1214. # [20:28] <tantek> let's not rathole on intents please
1215. # [20:28] <krisk> jamesgraham: if they are breaking the parser that seems like a very bad idea
1216. # [20:29] <plh> --> http://webintents.org/ Web Intents
1217. # [20:29] <krisk> mikesmith: they don't have spec document, rather it's just a document
1218. # [20:29] <tantek> mikesmith: I don't think he needed the intent element, he could have used the meta element
1219. # [20:29] <krisk> ...though they are using a new element it could easily be a meta element
1220. # [20:30] <krisk> samruby: bugzilla and wiki seems very light...
1221. # [20:30] * Quits: KevinMarks (KevinMarks@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
1222. # [20:30] * Quits: aizu (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
1223. # [20:30] * Quits: gang_ (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
1224. # [20:30] <krisk> mikesmith: see the link that mike posted about potential html.next features
1225. # [20:30] <krisk> http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTML5/#(15)
1226. # [20:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Update (at www.w3.org)
1227. # [20:31] * Joins: adrianba_ (adrianba@63.145.238.4)
1228. # [20:31] <krisk> mikesmith: input mode?
1229. # [20:31] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
1230. # [20:31] * Joins: aizu (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
1231. # [20:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
1232. # [20:31] <krisk> mikesmith: mobile browsers seem to have this use case
1233. # [20:31] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
1234. # [20:31] * adrianba_ is now known as adrianba
1235. # [20:31] <krisk> mikesmith: one item that hixie removed from html5, is the datagrid
1236. # [20:31] * Joins: gang (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
1237. # [20:31] <adrianba> rrsagent, pointer
1238. # [20:31] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-irc#T19-26-33
1239. # [20:32] * Joins: KevinMarks (KevinMarks@63.145.238.4)
1240. # [20:32] <krisk> mikesmith: some media items...
1241. # [20:32] <krisk> ... playback statistics
1242. # [20:32] * Quits: Tom (tgambet@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Quitte)
1243. # [20:32] <krisk> ..api media additions
1244. # [20:33] * Joins: Stevef_ (chatzilla@63.145.238.4)
1245. # [20:33] <krisk> samruby: not only datagrid is on the wiki
1246. # [20:34] <krisk> kimberly: if we start to talk about forms and mobile
1247. # [20:34] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
1248. # [20:34] <krisk> ...autocorrect is bad for password
1249. # [20:34] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@63.145.238.4)
1250. # [20:34] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@63.145.238.4) (Ping timeout)
1251. # [20:34] <krisk> slinger: this is already be taken care of another WG
1252. # [20:34] * Stevef_ is now known as Stevef
1253. # [20:35] <krisk> slinger: I don't think it's good to think about next features, rather we should be think about how to get the project launched in the best possible way
1254. # [20:36] <krisk> adrian: I like to note about a feature I added that's on the wiki (login)
1255. # [20:36] * tantek always thought a generic <_> element would be useful for when you can do everything with attributes. ;)
1256. # [20:36] <krisk> anne: we should not be thinking about html.next as a big step, html5 was done incrementally
1257. # [20:37] <krisk> ...I suspect html.next will also do the same thing...
1258. # [20:37] * JF @tantek, including adding ARIA :)
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1260. # [20:37] <krisk> ...components may change how we think about interaction with existing and new elements created by libs
1261. # [20:37] <krisk> ...we may want to bring some common lib elements back
1262. # [20:38] <krisk> ...I want to see incremental progress
1263. # [20:38] <krisk> jamesgraham: we should publish one a year with a small number of items that are completed rather than a 15 yeare cycle
1264. # [20:38] <krisk> adrian: I agree with that notion
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1266. # [20:39] <krisk> plh: I also agree with james
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1268. # [20:39] <krisk> samruby: any more items?
1269. # [20:40] <krisk> paulcotton: let me replay some of the items that came up with at barcamp dealing with getting specs out faster
1270. # [20:40] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14697] New: Harmonize roles with ARIA <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0300.html>
1271. # [20:40] <krisk> paulcotton: I'd like to hear tantek view on doing future html work in a community group
1272. # [20:40] <tantek> +1
1273. # [20:40] <krisk> ...for example webvvt
1274. # [20:40] <krisk> s/webvvt/webvtt/
1275. # [20:41] <tantek> I agree that we should consider community groups for HTML.next.
1276. # [20:41] <krisk> ...the organization is not getting patent protection because the spec takes so long
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1278. # [20:42] <krisk> ...by doing mondular, community groups, are ways to speed up the process
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1280. # [20:43] <krisk> mikesmith: we have another HTML community group on editing, so we do have a precedence for doing html.next work in a community group
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1282. # [20:43] <krisk> tantek: I want to follow up with paul's comment
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1285. # [20:44] <krisk> ...Mozilla agrees that doing HTML.NEXT work in a community group is the right place
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1295. # [20:45] <krisk> rrsagent, draft minutes
1296. # [20:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html krisk
1297. # [20:45] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 04 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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1340. # [21:10] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 12715] When used to include data blocks (as opposed to scripts), the data must be embedded inline <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0301.html>
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1366. # [22:01] <MikeSmith> minutes for the first part of this morning are here:
1367. # [22:01] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes-part1.html
1368. # [22:01] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 04 Nov 2011 -- part 1 (at www.w3.org)
1369. # [22:02] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
1370. # [22:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
1371. # [22:02] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 04 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
1372. # [22:02] <pimpbot> planet: bhueppe: Journalism in the Open: The 2011/12 Knight-Mozilla Fellows announced <http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2011/11/04/journalism-in-the-open-the-201112-knight-mozilla-fellows-announced/>
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1385. # [22:09] <paulc> test
1386. # [22:11] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14697] Harmonize roles with ARIA <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0302.html>
1387. # [22:13] <paulc> Topic: Testing TF work and plans
1388. # [22:14] <paulc> Mark: Could we actually outsource the generation of tests for HTML5
1389. # [22:14] <eliot> scribe: eliot
1390. # [22:14] <rubys> Art: I like the idea of more directed sponsorship
1391. # [22:14] * Joins: Iraj (irajs@63.145.238.4)
1392. # [22:15] <rubys> Paulc: are we ready to outsource
1393. # [22:15] <eliot> KK: up front costs to hire omeone would be high. want to minimize that.
1394. # [22:15] <rubys> James: we haven't built detailed test plans
1395. # [22:15] * Parts: Iraj (irajs@63.145.238.4)
1396. # [22:15] <eliot> ....test reviews have to go on. not sure where they'd come from
1397. # [22:15] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@63.145.238.4)
1398. # [22:15] <eliot> ....Where would the talent come from? But it's still a possibility.
1399. # [22:16] <eliot> ...Set up requirements and make clear what has to be done.
1400. # [22:16] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@63.145.238.4)
1401. # [22:16] <eliot> PC: I have experience in this. XML Query test suite >25k tests
1402. # [22:16] <eliot> ....missed. US Gov't wrote thousands of the tests
1403. # [22:17] <eliot> ...They had some tooling that they fed the spe into to generate tests
1404. # [22:17] <eliot> ...but also had peoplpe who were experts.
1405. # [22:17] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@63.145.238.4) (Quit: MikeSmith)
1406. # [22:17] <eliot> Look for XQuery test suite W3C
1407. # [22:17] * Joins: gang (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
1408. # [22:18] <eliot> ....We seem to be concentrating on the browser venders. Have we asked everyone who's going to benefint from HTML5?
1409. # [22:18] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/2006/xquery-test-suite/PublicPagesStagingArea/
1410. # [22:18] <pimpbot> Title: XML Query Test Suite (at dev.w3.org)
1411. # [22:18] <eliot> James: We focus a lot on numbers--necessary--but quality is most important.
1412. # [22:18] <eliot> ...if we generate million tests but they don't find bugs, then effect is minimal.
1413. # [22:19] <eliot> ....need the ones who will write evil tests.
1414. # [22:19] <eliot> Ryoske: we had refactoring tests. turned out needed 10 to the 16th tests. No way.
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1417. # [22:20] <eliot> ...important to catch the bugs
1418. # [22:20] <eliot> PC: XPath and XQuery tests went for core features first. Subsequent tests assumed the core tests worked.
1419. # [22:20] <eliot> ...tests got more complex on the outer edges.
1420. # [22:21] <eliot> Russel: So when do I get a gold star? How many tests do I have to pass?
1421. # [22:22] <eliot> PC: W3C had workshop to see if they should do compliance testing
1422. # [22:22] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.145.238.4)
1423. # [22:22] <eliot> ....given nonlegal structure it's unlikely that the W3C would do it. W3C is not in the certification business. Implies huge otlays of money.
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1426. # [22:23] <eliot> .....Do lots of validation testing. Company would use the test and make a claim to their customers that they pass a certain number of tests.
1427. # [22:23] * Joins: howard (howard_wan@63.145.238.4)
1428. # [22:24] <eliot> Mark Vickers: If we get these tests done, there's potential income as a service.
1429. # [22:24] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.169)
1430. # [22:24] <eliot> ...Lots of possible tests. If someone else runs the test, the legal responsibility moves.
1431. # [22:25] <eliot> ...could provide regular income w/o w3c being in the certification business.
1432. # [22:25] <eliot> Russel: Even if w3c doesn't want to be in the business, there's a pressing need in various ecosystem to have cert programs.
1433. # [22:26] <eliot> ....If w3c is going to present hundreds of thousand of tests, who sets up the buckets of tests?
1434. # [22:26] <eliot> PLH: are you suggestin w3c sharee that burden?
1435. # [22:26] <eliot> Russel: yes
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1437. # [22:27] <eliot> PLH: w3c is not in the positio to do that. it will take several years. we have no plan.
1438. # [22:28] <eliot> Russel: for home network we do, for various components we go through UL.
1439. # [22:28] <eliot> PC: the logos are expensive to create. w3c is not in that business
1440. # [22:29] <eliot> Russell: We are expressing an ecosystem need
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1442. # [22:29] <eliot> PC: Different WGs in the W3c have gotten through rec with minimum required tests
1443. # [22:30] <eliot> ....divide to subfeatures. Create scenarios, and test for those. Get same result from multiple implementations, then we're good.
1444. # [22:30] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
1445. # [22:30] <eliot> ....WGs have set criteria low and sometimes high. If you set for certification, you set for infinity.
1446. # [22:30] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.145.238.4)
1447. # [22:30] <anne> shall we write tests?
1448. # [22:30] * Joins: kimberly (Kimberly@63.145.238.4)
1449. # [22:30] <eliot> ...it's important to talk about what needs to be done to get out of CR.
1450. # [22:31] * Joins: plinss (plinss@63.145.238.4)
1451. # [22:31] <eliot> plh: we rely on members to submit tests. w3c doesn't have staff for this
1452. # [22:31] <eliot> ...so far we are way far from the 200k numbers we'd need for html5
1453. # [22:32] <eliot> Wilhelm: Many cert programs have been deliberately harmful to the success of the web.
1454. # [22:32] <eliot> ...one group made a test suite and froze the test cases. Years later another client came with those test cases. They didn't agree with the way the web had evolved.
1455. # [22:33] <eliot> ....not sure how to solve it, but cert is dangerous to the web.
1456. # [22:33] <eliot> Mark: Might be some benefit for w3c providing test suites.
1457. # [22:34] <eliot> ...2nd milestone in which tests are completed?
1458. # [22:34] <eliot> ....we also just need to be practical about certification. It's going to happen and the w3c should be involved.
1459. # [22:35] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
1460. # [22:35] <eliot> ...ideally at the infinite level, but more practical approach that grows over time. becomes more complete.
1461. # [22:35] <eliot> ....can do this and potentially generate income for w3c.
1462. # [22:35] <eliot> kk: great conversation. I think in terms of the customer.
1463. # [22:36] <eliot> ...if you put a logo on something and FB doesn't work, do they care?
1464. # [22:36] <eliot> ...It's going to take a lot more than HTML. It's bigger that HTML. Bigger than w3c.
1465. # [22:36] <eliot> ...if you have something on a device and you want that to work for years, it's going to take a lot.
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1469. # [22:38] <eliot> ...Great place to start the discussion.
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1472. # [22:38] <eliot> ...PLH to pass a hat for testing resources
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1474. # [22:39] <eliot> Guiseppe: Not clear, is it a lack of money to close test cases?
1475. # [22:39] <eliot> pc: Maybe we're not organizing in the right direction.
1476. # [22:39] <eliot> plh: I told jeff i need 40 people and he said sure, give me the money.
1477. # [22:40] <eliot> DSinger: If you're doing HTML5, you can differentiate by saying you do more.
1478. # [22:40] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
1479. # [22:40] <eliot> ....if everyone else contributes tests and you don't you benefit.
1480. # [22:40] <eliot> ....we urgently need to talk about how people who want to get certified can contribute
1481. # [22:41] <eliot> DBarron: CSS2.1, test suite served 2 purposes: validate spec. Let implementors converge.
1482. # [22:41] <eliot> ...You have to stop at some point, but the test suite cont. to evolved
1483. # [22:42] <eliot> pc: You can find this on the web, the static version used for CR and the current contents of the repository.
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1485. # [22:42] <eliot> DBarron: using test suites as a yard stick. the density of coverage per test varies greatly.
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1487. # [22:43] <eliot> ...one test could be more precise than 10k other tests.
1488. # [22:43] <eliot> ...Very concerned when a test is used for more than did you pass or not?
1489. # [22:44] <eliot> Guiseppe: The are organizations interested. Sd organize and discuss: how to work w/o freezing a test case. and to discuss collaboration.
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1492. # [22:44] <eliot> MVickers: There is another group. Doing everything we can to use HTML5., Driving the organization towards using w3c tests and not another standard.
1493. # [22:45] <eliot> ....will follow up and arrange for a meeting. first with Jeff and then a subgroup of the HTML5 group.
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1495. # [22:45] <eliot> kk: Members of the wg would help.
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1497. # [22:46] <eliot> pc: plh is on point as the w3c person to take this idea and do something about it.
1498. # [22:46] <jgraham> http://hoppipolla.co.uk/talks/testing/testing.html
1499. # [22:46] <pimpbot> Title: Testing (at hoppipolla.co.uk)
1500. # [22:47] <eliot> pc: we'd like to get to some point where we have more people in the room to generate tests
1501. # [22:47] <eliot> Topic: Testing HTML
1502. # [22:47] <eliot> Link above is to slides James is going through
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1504. # [22:47] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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1507. # [22:48] <eliot> James: Who has used Mercurial? Afew. Written a test for a working group? Same few.
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1510. # [22:48] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
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1513. # [22:49] <plh> zakim, stay here!
1514. # [22:49] <Zakim> I don't understand 'stay here!', plh
1515. # [22:49] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
1516. # [22:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
1517. # [22:49] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 04 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
1518. # [22:49] <dbaron> Zakim, remind us in 3 hours to go home
1519. # [22:49] <Zakim> ok, dbaron
1520. # [22:49] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
1521. # [22:49] <eliot> To get test in so you can edit, you clne the repository.
1522. # [22:49] <eliot> James: once you have the files, you can create a test
1523. # [22:50] <eliot> ...a tests go into a directory /tests/submissions/name_of_vendor/featurename
1524. # [22:51] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@63.145.238.4) (Quit: dsinger)
1525. # [22:51] <eliot> ...we create a directory. Use your favorite editor.
1526. # [22:51] * ArtB s/emacs/$EDITOR/ ;-)
1527. # [22:51] <eliot> ...create the test and then commit the test locally. It's just in your local repository, until you push.
1528. # [22:51] <anne> "added 363 changesets with 2836 changes to 2081 files" o_O been a while since I looked at this
1529. # [22:52] * Joins: stpeter (stpeter@207.210.219.225)
1530. # [22:52] <eliot> ....to figure out what to test....quite important.
1531. # [22:52] <anne> how do I figure out what to test?
1532. # [22:52] * Parts: stpeter (stpeter@207.210.219.225)
1533. # [22:52] <anne> that is, figure out what is already tested
1534. # [22:52] <eliot> .....not testing conformance criteria for authors. Looking for implementor requirements.
1535. # [22:53] <krisk> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular-data.html#tabular-data
1536. # [22:53] <pimpbot> Title: 4.9 Tabular data HTML5 (at www.w3.org)
1537. # [22:53] <eliot> ....DOM interface has a bunch of properties. we might test for them...
1538. # [22:54] * Quits: samk (Adium@63.145.238.4) (Quit: Leaving.)
1539. # [22:54] <eliot> ....caption property on <table> isaimed at authors. Never look at text in green boxes.
1540. # [22:54] <eliot> ....RFC2119 keyword is a tip.
1541. # [22:55] * stearns thinks that testing discussions should start with what needs testing, and how to write a good test harness.js or ref test, and leave mercurial until after you have a good local test to submit
1542. # [22:55] <eliot> "....MUST return the first caption element that is a child of the table. If there aren't any, it must return NULL." This is something we can test.
1543. # [22:56] * Quits: jihye (jihye@63.145.238.4) (Client exited)
1544. # [22:56] <eliot> ....Writing JavaScript test: Testharness.js (link at end of slides)
1545. # [22:56] * plh rrsagent, where am I?
1546. # [22:56] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-irc#T21-51-11
1547. # [22:57] <wilhelm> Documentation for testharness.js: http://w3c-test.org/resources/testharness.js
1548. # [22:57] <eliot> ....create a function called test
1549. # [22:57] <eliot> ...straightforward construction.
1550. # [22:57] <eliot> ...see "Test for the Table API" in slides for code.
1551. # [22:58] <eliot> ....test for two caption in forst case and no captions in the second.
1552. # [22:58] <eliot> s//forst/first
1553. # [22:59] <eliot> ...that is simple, can be more complex. What happens if I insert a caption using the DOM, etc.
1554. # [23:00] * Joins: jihye (jihye@63.145.238.4)
1555. # [23:00] <eliot> ...SteveFaulkner: Is it always OK to leave out child elements and things?
1556. # [23:01] <eliot> James: when you're testing things you're not testing validity, so yes.
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1558. # [23:01] <krisk> If you don't have Hg installed http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/Download#Binary_packages
1559. # [23:01] <pimpbot> Title: Download - Mercurial (at mercurial.selenic.com)
1560. # [23:01] <eliot> Wilhelm: Gives an indication of how many tests we need. One sentence and I can think of about ten things that need to be done.
1561. # [23:02] <eliot> Link is to Mercurial repository. Need to get Mercurial.
1562. # [23:02] <eliot> James: to find out what tests are needed, look at what's submitted, or reach out to testing task force
1563. # [23:03] <eliot> James: to run the test, run it in the browser. It says pass or fail. You can add something to the assert message to make it more useful, but in general, pass/fail.
1564. # [23:04] <eliot> James: We have a way to link tests to a section of the spec
1565. # [23:04] <eliot> kk: it's a big spec. It's hard to know where it's from
1566. # [23:05] <eliot> Peter: Can link to any anchor
1567. # [23:05] <eliot> James: Theere's a guide to handle the tests
1568. # [23:05] * ArtB FYI, http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/ describes a method for marking testable assertions
1569. # [23:05] <pimpbot> Title: A Method for Writing Testable Conformance Requirements (at www.w3.org)
1570. # [23:06] <eliot> ....if you're testing rendering, there's a process on the CSS page
1571. # [23:06] <eliot> Are the guidelines?
1572. # [23:06] <eliot> James: Not really
1573. # [23:06] <eliot> plh: do we need some
1574. # [23:06] <eliot> James: if the test is right that's good enough
1575. # [23:07] <eliot> How to address interdependencies?
1576. # [23:07] <eliot> James: General guideline is to not make test depend on things. Test the thing your testing only.
1577. # [23:08] <eliot> ....you have to make some assumptions, but we try to make as few as possible.
1578. # [23:09] <eliot> Ryoska: Do we expect tests to restore states?
1579. # [23:09] <yosuke> s/Ryoska/Ryosuke/
1580. # [23:09] <eliot> James: In general encouraged.
1581. # [23:09] <eliot> DBaron: I would say that even more strongly.
1582. # [23:10] <eliot> kk:there are some situations where you can't avoid it. You can comment that at the top of the test, if you need a clean cache or something like that.
1583. # [23:11] <eliot> Guiseppe: aree they run in the same order?
1584. # [23:11] <eliot> James: No guarantees.
1585. # [23:11] <eliot> kk: they should pass in any order. No order is assumed.
1586. # [23:12] <eliot> James: maybe now is a good time to stop, pick a part of the spec and write a test.
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1590. # [23:13] <eliot> kk: Memory leak. We're supposed to validate that the normative parts of the spec work. Not whether a feature causes a memory leak.
1591. # [23:13] <krisk> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/Download#Binary_packages
1592. # [23:13] <pimpbot> Title: Download - Mercurial (at mercurial.selenic.com)
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1594. # [23:14] <eliot> RRSAgent, make minutes
1595. # [23:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html eliot
1596. # [23:14] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 04 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)
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1633. # [23:51] <krisk> I pushed a few table tests http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/Microsoft/table/table_001.htm
1634. # [23:51] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Table API Tests (at w3c-test.org)
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1640. # [23:54] <anne> krisk: should also test setting caption to null
1641. # [23:54] <anne> and whether that removes the element from the tree
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1651. # [23:56] <anne> and I guess there are some Web IDL tests to be made by setting it to "", 0, etc.
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The end :)