/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2012-05-03 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu May 03 00:00:02 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:13] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@205.248.100.252)
  4. # [00:13] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  5. # [01:04] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Leaving.)
  6. # [01:07] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@205.248.100.252)
  7. # [01:07] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  8. # [01:11] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  9. # [01:29] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.245.105.197) (Quit: mjs)
  10. # [01:31] * Quits: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252) (Client exited)
  11. # [01:31] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.245.105.197)
  12. # [01:34] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  13. # [01:37] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: always accept cookies)
  14. # [01:39] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252)
  15. # [01:39] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Leaving.)
  16. # [01:39] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  17. # [01:39] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  18. # [01:44] * Quits: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Quit: tantek_)
  19. # [01:44] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  20. # [01:45] * Quits: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252) (Quit: anne)
  21. # [01:47] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@94.234.170.161) (Ping timeout)
  22. # [01:47] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@94.234.170.161)
  23. # [01:49] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  24. # [01:50] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252)
  25. # [01:50] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@216.239.45.130) (Quit: rniwa)
  26. # [01:51] * Quits: mattur (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  27. # [01:52] * Quits: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Quit: tantek_)
  28. # [01:54] * Quits: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Quit: tantek)
  29. # [02:23] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.245.105.197) (Quit: mjs)
  30. # [02:23] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.230.144) (Client exited)
  31. # [02:25] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.245.105.197)
  32. # [02:25] * Joins: davidb (davidb@174.91.42.30)
  33. # [02:26] * Quits: davidb (davidb@174.91.42.30) (Client exited)
  34. # [02:30] * Joins: davidb (davidb@174.91.42.30)
  35. # [02:32] * Quits: dveditz (dveditz@205.248.100.252) (Quit: dveditz)
  36. # [02:49] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118)
  37. # [02:58] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@63.245.220.240)
  38. # [03:01] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.245.105.197) (Quit: mjs)
  39. # [03:23] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@173.252.71.2) (Ping timeout)
  40. # [03:45] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@64.34.186.7)
  41. # [03:49] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118) (Quit: tantek)
  42. # [03:54] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118)
  43. # [03:57] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
  44. # [04:02] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@64.34.186.7) (Ping timeout)
  45. # [04:03] * Quits: davidb (davidb@174.91.42.30) (Quit: davidb)
  46. # [04:10] * Quits: tH (Rob@86.26.248.235) (Ping timeout)
  47. # [04:11] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118) (Quit: tantek)
  48. # [04:13] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  49. # [04:25] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118)
  50. # [04:27] * Joins: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98)
  51. # [04:28] * Joins: mjs (mjs@24.6.209.189)
  52. # [05:17] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  53. # [05:18] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118) (Quit: tantek)
  54. # [05:20] * Quits: dveditz (dveditz@63.245.220.240) (Quit: dveditz)
  55. # [05:25] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
  56. # [05:26] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  57. # [06:02] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@69.181.69.39)
  58. # [06:05] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@173.164.173.13)
  59. # [06:32] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@70.89.66.218)
  60. # [06:32] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  61. # [06:36] * Joins: rniwa_ (rniwa@216.239.45.130)
  62. # [06:39] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@70.89.66.218) (Ping timeout)
  63. # [06:39] * rniwa_ is now known as rniwa
  64. # [06:40] * Quits: Philip (philip@92.243.11.39) (Ping timeout)
  65. # [06:41] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98) (Client exited)
  66. # [06:42] * Joins: Philip (philip@92.243.11.39)
  67. # [07:30] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224) (Quit: Leaving...)
  68. # [08:50] * Joins: nesta_ (nesta_@83.58.89.88)
  69. # [08:55] * Joins: tantek (tantek@50.1.62.23)
  70. # [08:56] * Quits: Philip (philip@92.243.11.39) (Ping timeout)
  71. # [08:56] * Joins: Philip (philip@92.243.11.39)
  72. # [09:03] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@94.234.170.161) (Quit: Leaving.)
  73. # [09:03] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@69.181.69.39) (Ping timeout)
  74. # [09:23] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226)
  75. # [09:23] * Quits: jmb (jmb@109.74.199.199) (Ping timeout)
  76. # [09:25] * Joins: jmb (jmb@109.74.199.199)
  77. # [09:34] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
  78. # [10:11] * Joins: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98)
  79. # [10:11] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98) (Client exited)
  80. # [10:11] * Joins: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98)
  81. # [10:23] * Joins: drublic (drublic@93.132.244.75)
  82. # [10:56] * Joins: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226)
  83. # [10:56] * Quits: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169) (Ping timeout)
  84. # [10:56] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout)
  85. # [10:58] * Joins: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169)
  86. # [11:00] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226)
  87. # [11:01] * Quits: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout)
  88. # [11:01] * Joins: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226)
  89. # [11:03] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout)
  90. # [11:14] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  91. # [11:26] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
  92. # [11:55] * Joins: nonge_ (nonge@80.130.188.17)
  93. # [11:58] * Quits: nonge (nonge@91.50.100.67) (Ping timeout)
  94. # [12:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@173.164.173.13) (Ping timeout)
  95. # [12:22] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@216.239.45.130) (Quit: rniwa)
  96. # [12:57] * Joins: mattur (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  97. # [13:10] * Joins: tH (Rob@86.26.248.235)
  98. # [13:14] * Quits: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout)
  99. # [13:19] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226)
  100. # [13:24] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Bye)
  101. # [13:28] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
  102. # [13:57] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  103. # [14:25] * Joins: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226)
  104. # [14:25] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Connection reset by peer)
  105. # [14:48] * Joins: davidb (davidb@66.207.208.98)
  106. # [15:12] * Quits: nesta_ (nesta_@83.58.89.88) (Quit: nesta_)
  107. # [15:51] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224)
  108. # [16:06] * Quits: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Connection reset by peer)
  109. # [16:06] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226)
  110. # [16:15] * hiro_away is now known as hiro
  111. # [16:49] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224) (Connection reset by peer)
  112. # [16:50] * Quits: mjs (mjs@24.6.209.189) (Quit: mjs)
  113. # [17:10] * Quits: tantek (tantek@50.1.62.23) (Quit: tantek)
  114. # [17:26] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout)
  115. # [17:37] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226)
  116. # [17:38] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
  117. # [17:39] <J_Voracek>
  118. # [17:41] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Quit: disconnected: Jace Voracek - Jace@Jace-Place.com)
  119. # [17:45] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.7.78)
  120. # [17:48] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252)
  121. # [17:51] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
  122. # [18:01] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  123. # [18:02] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
  124. # [18:02] * Joins: Clarke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  125. # [18:08] * Joins: paulc (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  126. # [18:08] * Joins: MFoladare (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  127. # [18:08] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
  128. # [18:08] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Client exited)
  129. # [18:08] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda
  130. # [18:08] * Joins: eliot (eliot@131.107.0.118)
  131. # [18:08] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
  132. # [18:08] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  133. # [18:08] * Joins: krisk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  134. # [18:09] * Joins: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252)
  135. # [18:09] * Joins: magnus (magnus@205.248.100.252)
  136. # [18:10] * Joins: hiroki (h_yamada@128.30.52.28)
  137. # [18:10] * Joins: shan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  138. # [18:11] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@205.248.100.252)
  139. # [18:11] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  140. # [18:12] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  141. # [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
  142. # [18:12] * ArtB MikeSmith - is it OK to ask RRSAgent to: make log Public?
  143. # [18:12] <tantek> good morning
  144. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> ArtB, yeah
  145. # [18:13] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
  146. # [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
  147. # [18:13] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  148. # [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
  149. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> hey tantek, we are starting in a couple minutes, so you guys will have to catch up once you get here
  150. # [18:13] * Joins: acolwell (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  151. # [18:13] <ArtB> Title: HTML WG F2F Meeting
  152. # [18:14] <Clarke> Will there be a phone connection?
  153. # [18:14] * hiro is now known as hiro_away
  154. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> Clarke, yeah
  155. # [18:14] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda
  156. # [18:14] <tantek> thanks MikeSmith
  157. # [18:15] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  158. # [18:15] * Joins: odinho (Velmont@193.157.115.211)
  159. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> Clarke, +1.617.761.6200, code 4865
  160. # [18:15] * Joins: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252)
  161. # [18:15] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  162. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  163. # [18:16] <plh> zakim, this will be html
  164. # [18:16] <Zakim> ok, plh, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  165. # [18:16] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference
  166. # [18:16] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  167. # [18:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  168. # [18:16] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
  169. # [18:16] * Zakim sees on the phone: Radhika_Roy, [Microsoft], ??P24
  170. # [18:16] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
  171. # [18:16] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  172. # [18:16] <trackbot> Date: 03 May 2012
  173. # [18:16] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  174. # [18:16] <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
  175. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML WG F2F Meeting
  176. # [18:16] <Zakim> +tantek
  177. # [18:16] * plh wonders who ??p24 is ...
  178. # [18:16] <odinho> Present+ Odin_Horthe_Omdal
  179. # [18:17] * Joins: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  180. # [18:17] <eliot> zakim, microsoft has me
  181. # [18:17] <Zakim> +eliot; got it
  182. # [18:17] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
  183. # [18:17] <plh> Present+ plh
  184. # [18:18] <magnus> Present+ Magnus_Olsson
  185. # [18:18] <Zakim> -??P24
  186. # [18:18] <tantek> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  187. # [18:18] <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], tantek
  188. # [18:18] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has eliot
  189. # [18:18] <Zakim> +Radhika_Roy
  190. # [18:18] * plh rrsagent, generate minutes
  191. # [18:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html plh
  192. # [18:18] <tantek> we can't hear anything on the phone btw
  193. # [18:18] <Zakim> +??P0
  194. # [18:18] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
  195. # [18:18] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
  196. # [18:18] <Clarke> zakim, ??P0 is me
  197. # [18:18] <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
  198. # [18:19] <tantek> is the room dialed into the phone?
  199. # [18:19] * Joins: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252)
  200. # [18:19] <plh> not yet
  201. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> tantek, we are dialing in now
  202. # [18:19] <plh> zakim, passcode?
  203. # [18:19] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plh
  204. # [18:19] * Quits: acolwell (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  205. # [18:20] * Joins: Wonsuk (wonsuk73@205.248.100.252)
  206. # [18:20] * Joins: acolwell (acolwell@205.248.100.252)
  207. # [18:20] <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
  208. # [18:20] <Zakim> + +1.650.693.aaaa
  209. # [18:22] * Joins: bryan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  210. # [18:22] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
  211. # [18:22] * Parts: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
  212. # [18:24] <Zakim> -tantek
  213. # [18:24] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252)
  214. # [18:24] <Zakim> +hober
  215. # [18:25] * odinho has problems seeing the screen, it's so small. Maybe CTRL + + ?
  216. # [18:26] * Joins: JF (chatzilla@205.248.100.252)
  217. # [18:26] <tantek> Zakim, mute hober
  218. # [18:26] <Zakim> hober should now be muted
  219. # [18:26] <ArtB> Present+ Art_Barstow
  220. # [18:26] <krisk> Present+ krisk
  221. # [18:26] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
  222. # [18:26] * Zakim sees on the phone: [Microsoft], Radhika_Roy, Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa, hober (muted)
  223. # [18:26] * Zakim [Microsoft] has eliot
  224. # [18:26] <tantek> zakim, unmute hober
  225. # [18:26] <Zakim> hober should no longer be muted
  226. # [18:26] <tantek> Zakim, mute hober
  227. # [18:26] <Zakim> hober should now be muted
  228. # [18:27] <shan> Present+ Soonbo_Han
  229. # [18:27] * Joins: frankolivier (cdf86654@207.192.75.252)
  230. # [18:27] * Joins: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252)
  231. # [18:27] * Joins: mark_vickers (mark_vicke@198.228.208.120)
  232. # [18:29] <krisk> scribe: krisk
  233. # [18:29] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda
  234. # [18:29] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
  235. # [18:29] <glenn> Present+ Glenn_Adams_(glenn)
  236. # [18:29] <krisk> paulc: choosing topics for F2F
  237. # [18:30] <krisk> paulc: Potential Topics...
  238. # [18:31] <krisk> time/date OR how/when we add semantic elements to HTML
  239. # [18:31] <krisk> Issue 183
  240. # [18:31] * Joins: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  241. # [18:32] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30)
  242. # [18:32] <krisk> media extensions/Encrypted media
  243. # [18:32] <krisk> HTMLG WG charter
  244. # [18:32] <krisk> If people have specific timeslots for an agenda then we will accomidate
  245. # [18:33] <eliot> needs to drop off the call for a bit. Will return later.
  246. # [18:33] <krisk> #1 Time/Date
  247. # [18:33] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  248. # [18:33] * Joins: JVoracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
  249. # [18:33] <krisk> #2 Media Extensions +Task Force
  250. # [18:34] <krisk> #3 HTML Charter (V.NEXT)
  251. # [18:34] <krisk> #4 Test Suite
  252. # [18:34] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Ping timeout)
  253. # [18:34] <krisk> #5 Issue 199
  254. # [18:34] <odinho> s/accomidate/accommodate/
  255. # [18:35] <krisk> #6 Issue 201 (canvas hit testing)
  256. # [18:35] <krisk> paulc: Let's collect some other topics?
  257. # [18:35] <krisk> paulc: If you have outstanding issue, please speak up
  258. # [18:36] <krisk> anne: what is the charter (#3) about
  259. # [18:36] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.244.75) (Client exited)
  260. # [18:36] <krisk> plh: we can dive into any of these or scope
  261. # [18:36] <krisk> anne: We should talk about the items that occured last week...
  262. # [18:37] <krisk> ..CG, editors...
  263. # [18:37] <krisk> paulc: This is the stabilization of the spec
  264. # [18:38] <ArtB> -> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html Draft HTML5 Stabilization Plan
  265. # [18:38] <krisk> #7 Stabization and FAQ
  266. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> issue-194?
  267. # [18:38] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-194
  268. # [18:38] <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
  269. # [18:38] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
  270. # [18:38] <krisk> #8 Issue 194
  271. # [18:39] * Joins: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  272. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-194
  273. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> 21 open issue
  274. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> s/open issue/open issues/
  275. # [18:40] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@205.248.100.252)
  276. # [18:40] <krisk> #9 Other Issues (21 total), discussion about any of these
  277. # [18:40] <rubys> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
  278. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> (Mark Watson arrives)
  279. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  280. # [18:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  281. # [18:40] <krisk> paulc: we can talk about feedback for proposal, questions, etc...
  282. # [18:41] * Joins: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  283. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> issue-199?
  284. # [18:41] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-199
  285. # [18:41] <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
  286. # [18:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
  287. # [18:41] <mjs> hober: are you here yet?
  288. # [18:41] <krisk> paulc: do we have a rough time estimate for issue 199?
  289. # [18:41] <krisk> mikesmith: should be about 45 minutes
  290. # [18:42] <krisk> paulc: Issue 201 will need about 90 minutes
  291. # [18:43] * chaals thinks: talking about tests, 30 minutes. Making them, weeks
  292. # [18:43] <krisk> paulc: Media extensions, are people ready to discuss this?
  293. # [18:43] <odinho> s/Stabization/Stabilization/
  294. # [18:44] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.7.78) (Quit: tantek)
  295. # [18:44] <krisk> paulc: given the threads, it should take a long time (120 minutes)
  296. # [18:44] * Quits: JVoracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Quit: disconnected: Jace Voracek - Jace@Jace-Place.com)
  297. # [18:44] <krisk> anne: can we split the two...
  298. # [18:44] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
  299. # [18:47] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.161.128.15)
  300. # [18:47] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Quit: disconnected: Jace Voracek - Jace@Jace-Place.com)
  301. # [18:48] <krisk> Shoudl we do one of the media ones first?
  302. # [18:49] <krisk> ...no agreement...
  303. # [18:49] <krisk> paulc: let's to stabilization first?
  304. # [18:49] * chaals has to step out. Will be back in an hour (or less if we are lucky)
  305. # [18:50] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.161.128.15) (Ping timeout)
  306. # [18:50] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.161.128.15)
  307. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> issue-183?
  308. # [18:51] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-183
  309. # [18:51] <trackbot> ISSUE-183 -- Enhance and simplify the time element -- open
  310. # [18:51] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/183
  311. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> issue-184?
  312. # [18:51] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-184
  313. # [18:51] <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
  314. # [18:51] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
  315. # [18:51] <Zakim> -hober
  316. # [18:52] <shan> s/Shoudl/Should/
  317. # [18:52] <krisk> paulc..here is the rough schedule
  318. # [18:52] <krisk> 9->10:30 today == Stabilization
  319. # [18:52] <krisk> 10:45: -> noon Issue-199
  320. # [18:53] <krisk> 1->3pm Issue 201
  321. # [18:53] <krisk> 3:15 -> 5pm Issue 194, <time> & <date>, 183, 184
  322. # [18:53] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.161.128.15) (Ping timeout)
  323. # [18:53] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@107.38.98.158)
  324. # [18:54] <krisk> paulc: please object if this doesn't work for you
  325. # [18:54] <krisk> Friday 9->10:30 Media (both parts)
  326. # [18:54] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@107.38.98.158) (Quit: mattkelly)
  327. # [18:54] <krisk> 10:45 -> noon Charter
  328. # [18:54] <odinho> s/let's to/let's do/
  329. # [18:54] <krisk> 1-> 5pm Test suite/Open Issues
  330. # [18:55] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.169)
  331. # [18:56] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.7.78)
  332. # [18:56] <krisk> paulc: Let's move into the stabilization topic
  333. # [18:56] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html
  334. # [18:58] <anne> is there an updated agenda?
  335. # [18:58] <odinho> s/http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html/-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html HTML Working Group Changes email, April 2012/
  336. # [18:58] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252)
  337. # [18:58] <paulc> See also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0205.html
  338. # [18:58] <anne> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda looks updated, sorry
  339. # [18:58] <paulc> FAQ: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html
  340. # [18:58] <krisk> paulc: see both links
  341. # [18:58] <krisk> paulc: starting with the WG Changes
  342. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> Tantek, Ted have arrived
  343. # [18:59] <krisk> ..Editor changes
  344. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> Cynthia Shelly has arrived
  345. # [18:59] * Quits: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  346. # [18:59] <krisk> paulc: any questions?
  347. # [18:59] * Joins: janina (janina@66.228.34.147)
  348. # [19:00] <krisk> paulc: stabilization plan is the second part
  349. # [19:00] <odinho> s|FAQ: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html|-> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html FAQ (Draft HTML5 Stabilization Plan)|
  350. # [19:00] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.7.78) (Ping timeout)
  351. # [19:00] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  352. # [19:01] <krisk> paulc: Q6 in the FAQ has decision policy changes
  353. # [19:01] * ArtB wonders if there is an agreed date on the publication of LCWD#2 for HTML5
  354. # [19:01] <krisk> paulc: many of these bugs are very strong, so if you are not familiar please read
  355. # [19:02] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  356. # [19:02] <krisk> paulc: for example you can only comment on from LC1
  357. # [19:02] <yosuke> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
  358. # [19:02] <krisk> anne: is this allowed by the process?
  359. # [19:02] <krisk> msj: it's happend before in WGs
  360. # [19:03] <krisk> paulc: we do want the decision policy in place before starting LC2
  361. # [19:03] <krisk> msj: two questions...
  362. # [19:03] * Joins: nesta_ (nesta_@83.52.124.12)
  363. # [19:03] * Quits: bryan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  364. # [19:03] <krisk> ..is this allowed
  365. # [19:04] <krisk> msj: Do people think this works for the WG, regardless of it being allow or not
  366. # [19:04] <krisk> anne: this seems to discourage comments
  367. # [19:05] <krisk> glenn: we could have new bugs become exceptions
  368. # [19:05] <tantek> q+ to say that implementation experience (browsers, web sites) is a good source of commentary for anything in LC.
  369. # [19:05] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  370. # [19:05] <krisk> plh: the process allows you to comment
  371. # [19:06] <glenn> i.e., if a new bug is commented that wasn't previously commented, the WG may choose to process instead of ruling out of scope due to lack of prior LC1 comment
  372. # [19:06] <krisk> plh: it's just that response to the comment will be 'too late'
  373. # [19:06] * Quits: MFoladare (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  374. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
  375. # [19:06] <krisk> anne: I don't like this..
  376. # [19:06] <krisk> paulc: it could be move to HTML.Next
  377. # [19:07] <krisk> msj: see bug #16676
  378. # [19:07] <odinho> s/msj/mjs/g
  379. # [19:08] <krisk> mjs: later in the spec development cycle adding new features doesn't work
  380. # [19:08] <krisk> rubys: let's look at the proposed diff
  381. # [19:09] * Joins: laura (laura@131.212.219.176)
  382. # [19:10] <krisk> mjs: The key part of the diff is..
  383. # [19:10] <krisk> mjs: The chairs agree we do need an exception
  384. # [19:12] <krisk> mjs: For second and subsequent last calls, only comments related to changes made since the start of the previous last call will be accepted.
  385. # [19:12] <adrianba> q+
  386. # [19:12] * Zakim sees tantek, adrianba on the speaker queue
  387. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> q?
  388. # [19:12] * Zakim sees tantek, adrianba on the speaker queue
  389. # [19:12] <krisk> This is to ensure we do not get into an infinite regress of new feedback; only new changes will get re-reviewed.
  390. # [19:12] <paulc> ack tantek
  391. # [19:12] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say that implementation experience (browsers, web sites) is a good source of commentary for anything in LC.
  392. # [19:12] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  393. # [19:12] <krisk> paulc: can we here from the room?
  394. # [19:13] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252)
  395. # [19:13] <odinho> s/here/hear/
  396. # [19:13] <krisk> tantek: Getting feedback from vendors, authors will be tough (since spec is very large)
  397. # [19:13] * Parts: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252)
  398. # [19:13] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252)
  399. # [19:13] <ArtB> q+
  400. # [19:13] * Zakim sees adrianba, ArtB on the speaker queue
  401. # [19:14] <krisk> ..when browser vendors start to impl features, the find issues that have not changed.
  402. # [19:14] <krisk> mjs: how did the CSS2.1 spec go?
  403. # [19:15] <krisk> tantek: Issues were found and the spec went last call -> CR -> last call -> CR-> lastcall...
  404. # [19:15] <krisk> paulc: we want to get to CR
  405. # [19:16] <krisk> mjs: the w3c process, states that if you have made major changes then you need to go back to last call
  406. # [19:17] <paulc> ack adrian
  407. # [19:17] * Zakim sees ArtB on the speaker queue
  408. # [19:17] * Joins: mark (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  409. # [19:17] <krisk> adrianb: the goal of overtime narrow comments, is a good goal
  410. # [19:17] <krisk> s/narrow/narrowing/
  411. # [19:18] <tantek> q+
  412. # [19:18] * Zakim sees ArtB, tantek on the speaker queue
  413. # [19:18] <krisk> adrianb: we should impl these changes and if they don't work then we can revisit
  414. # [19:18] <paulc> ack artb
  415. # [19:18] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  416. # [19:18] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224)
  417. # [19:19] <paulc> ack tantek
  418. # [19:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  419. # [19:19] <krisk> artb: Q6 seems reasonable, though I could see a issue coming up for the first time
  420. # [19:19] <krisk> tanek: This is fixing the wrong problem..
  421. # [19:19] <adrianba> s/tanek/tantek/
  422. # [19:19] <krisk> tantek: I'd rather see the WG push for CR and then handle objections
  423. # [19:20] <krisk> anne: most of the bugs are OK, except the limiting the scope of issues
  424. # [19:20] <krisk> paulc: I'd like to hear from the rest of the room
  425. # [19:21] <krisk> paulc: Bug 16676
  426. # [19:21] * chaals wonders if someone can paste links into IRC
  427. # [19:21] <anne> Also, in general, I think we should aim for less process, not more...
  428. # [19:21] * anne http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html
  429. # [19:21] <krisk> paulc: let's do a vote...
  430. # [19:22] <krisk> paulc: room seems evenly split...
  431. # [19:22] <mjs> Here's the part of the W3C Process that theoretically requires a new LC after substantive changes: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#return-to-wg
  432. # [19:22] <krisk> paulc: can anyone not live with the change?
  433. # [19:22] * chaals wonders if he *cannot* live with the change.
  434. # [19:23] <krisk> paulc: seems like if the co-chairs push forward we won't get strong pushback
  435. # [19:23] <krisk> mjs: please see the link I pasted in..
  436. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> q?
  437. # [19:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  438. # [19:24] <odinho> RRSAgent: make minutes
  439. # [19:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html odinho
  440. # [19:24] <rubys> q+
  441. # [19:24] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
  442. # [19:24] <rubys> q-
  443. # [19:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  444. # [19:25] <krisk> paulc: giving notice..after next last call we will be going to CR
  445. # [19:25] <krisk> paulc: bug 16841 is the feature freeze, basically no new features by default
  446. # [19:26] <krisk> paulc bug 16674
  447. # [19:27] <krisk> paulc: we are trying to not have changes just appearing in the spec by the editor
  448. # [19:28] <krisk> paulc: rather changes should come from bugs
  449. # [19:28] <odinho> i/choosing topics for F2F/Topic: Choosing topics for F2F
  450. # [19:29] <krisk> paulc: bug 13306 is about getting editors to do work in a finite amount of time
  451. # [19:29] <krisk> anne: woud like to talk about this in general
  452. # [19:30] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  453. # [19:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
  454. # [19:30] <krisk> paulc: co-chairs have not processed the applications for editors, but will do so in the next few weeks
  455. # [19:30] <krisk> anne: the main issue is that we have too much process already and now we are adding more..
  456. # [19:31] <mjs> q+
  457. # [19:31] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  458. # [19:31] * tantek agrees with annevk
  459. # [19:31] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  460. # [19:31] <krisk> anne: the amount of process is driving people away for the WG
  461. # [19:32] <chaals> q+
  462. # [19:32] * Zakim sees mjs, chaals on the speaker queue
  463. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> q?
  464. # [19:32] * Zakim sees mjs, chaals on the speaker queue
  465. # [19:32] <plh> ack mjs
  466. # [19:32] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  467. # [19:32] <adrianba> s/for the WG/from the WG/
  468. # [19:32] <krisk> mjs: do you have any specific ways or thoughts on how this could be changed?
  469. # [19:32] <tantek> q+ to say that current process (and proposed changes) appear(s) to favor spending time on process rather than technical discussion.
  470. # [19:32] * Zakim sees chaals, tantek on the speaker queue
  471. # [19:33] <krisk> mjs: my point of view the weight of the process can impact the group...
  472. # [19:33] * Parts: janina (janina@66.228.34.147)
  473. # [19:33] <odinho> i/Let's move into the stabilization topic/Topic: Stabilization
  474. # [19:34] <tantek> q+ to also say flamewars need to be dealt with by chairs stepping in and shutting them down, not by additional process.
  475. # [19:34] * Zakim sees chaals, tantek on the speaker queue
  476. # [19:34] <krisk> mjs: unlike in the webapps WG, the wg was not able to get people to agree and threads never closed out
  477. # [19:34] * Joins: janina (janina@205.248.100.252)
  478. # [19:34] <chaals> [what maciej said. If there are concrete proposals to change the process and make it nicer, that would be great, but otherwise let's not have a process discussion]
  479. # [19:34] <mark> q+
  480. # [19:34] * Zakim sees chaals, tantek, mark on the speaker queue
  481. # [19:34] <chaals> ack me
  482. # [19:34] * Zakim sees tantek, mark on the speaker queue
  483. # [19:34] <odinho> s|s/http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html/-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html HTML Working Group Changes email, April 2012/||
  484. # [19:34] <plh> ack tantek
  485. # [19:34] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say that current process (and proposed changes) appear(s) to favor spending time on process rather than technical discussion. and to also say flamewars need
  486. # [19:34] <Zakim> ... to be dealt with by chairs stepping in and shutting them down, not by additional process.
  487. # [19:34] * Zakim sees mark on the speaker queue
  488. # [19:35] * chaals understands Anne's point. It is painful.
  489. # [19:35] <krisk> tantek: the group has gotten to the point that people don't want to even help improve the process
  490. # [19:36] <krisk> tantek: we are doing more process rather than technical discussions
  491. # [19:36] <krisk> tantek: microdata+RDFa discussion is a good example of discussion just ending..
  492. # [19:37] * chaals notes that no good deed goes unpunished, and nominates Tantek for chair
  493. # [19:37] <krisk> tantek: chairs should just say in the list this is a perma thread..
  494. # [19:37] * Quits: frankolivier (cdf86654@207.192.75.252) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  495. # [19:38] <plh> q?
  496. # [19:38] * Zakim sees mark on the speaker queue
  497. # [19:38] <plh> ack mark
  498. # [19:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  499. # [19:38] <mjs> q+
  500. # [19:38] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  501. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> q?
  502. # [19:38] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  503. # [19:39] <JF> +1 to what Cynthia is saying
  504. # [19:39] <paulc> q+
  505. # [19:39] * Zakim sees mjs, paulc on the speaker queue
  506. # [19:39] <krisk> cythia: we at the point in 'shipping' that adding new stuff will be painful
  507. # [19:40] <krisk> cynthia: it's better now than in the past
  508. # [19:40] <paulc> ack mjs
  509. # [19:40] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  510. # [19:40] <krisk> anne: thinks the group is worse
  511. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> to be fair, much of the technical discussion takes place in bugzilla and so it's natural that we have less technical discussion on the list than other groups do
  512. # [19:41] <krisk> mjs: for one reason or not the HTML spec has been a nexus of issues
  513. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> q+ to mention CORS
  514. # [19:41] * Zakim sees paulc, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  515. # [19:42] <plh> q+
  516. # [19:42] * Zakim sees paulc, MikeSmith, plh on the speaker queue
  517. # [19:42] <krisk> mjs: I would like alot less process, but in html after years the wg could not agree and move on
  518. # [19:42] <krisk> mjs: for the next version I would not like to see this process used
  519. # [19:43] * Joins: johnsim (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  520. # [19:43] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  521. # [19:43] <krisk> mjs: just like in software the start it's a free for all..then overtime features/changes get more scoped
  522. # [19:45] <krisk> paulc: the chairs didn't come with just a stabilzation plan, it was also came with a place for technical discussions to occur on new features
  523. # [19:45] <krisk> paulc: we want to do both at the same time..
  524. # [19:45] <anne> q+ to say this is not about new vs old
  525. # [19:45] * Zakim sees paulc, MikeSmith, plh, anne on the speaker queue
  526. # [19:45] <paulc> ack Mikes
  527. # [19:45] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to mention CORS
  528. # [19:45] * Zakim sees paulc, plh, anne on the speaker queue
  529. # [19:46] <paulc> ack paulc
  530. # [19:46] * Zakim sees plh, anne on the speaker queue
  531. # [19:46] <krisk> mikesmith: not all webapps stuff is perfect
  532. # [19:47] <krisk> mikesmith: in the WG we have people that are fundementally oposed
  533. # [19:48] <krisk> mikesmith: I don't know of a process that can fix this problem
  534. # [19:49] <krisk> plh: in CSS they struggled with CSS3 vs CSS2.1..
  535. # [19:49] <rubys> mikesmith cited hybi and cors as examples
  536. # [19:49] <chaals> [face to face time is helpful for webapps. There are a lot of people who have had a lot of time to talk to each other inside and outside the working group, and that is a key to such success as we have]
  537. # [19:49] <janina> +1 to Chaas as a general rule
  538. # [19:50] <chaals> ack pl
  539. # [19:50] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
  540. # [19:50] <paulc> ack anne
  541. # [19:50] <Zakim> anne, you wanted to say this is not about new vs old
  542. # [19:50] <chaals> ack ann
  543. # [19:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  544. # [19:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  545. # [19:50] <tantek> mikesmith - hybi was hijacked by a single individual who has a known history of trolling in w3c lists.
  546. # [19:50] <krisk> plh: the chairs could push back to have people work together more than raising issues
  547. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> tantek, that individual did not end up editing the spec
  548. # [19:51] <tantek> anne: "the way things are being worked on are toxic in my opinion"
  549. # [19:51] <krisk> paulc: do we think we need more time on the topic?
  550. # [19:51] <krisk> mjs: we didn't discuss the community group
  551. # [19:51] <JF> [I would like to add that "the other way" was and is seen by some groups as toxic as well]
  552. # [19:51] * Quits: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252) (Quit: mjs)
  553. # [19:52] <krisk> paulc: ok we will discuss this after the coffee break
  554. # [19:52] <tantek> MikeSmith - but he did make discussion on the list nearly impossible
  555. # [19:52] <krisk> paulc: we will meet again at 11am
  556. # [19:52] * chaals generally finds that there is nothing much toxic about processes, it is generally the case that they arise as an issue due to poor behaviour
  557. # [19:53] <krisk> paulc: we are about 15 minutes behind the schedule overall..
  558. # [19:54] * Joins: brucel (brucel@94.173.96.152)
  559. # [19:55] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  560. # [19:56] * MichaelC knows you're on break but will dial in so I don't miss the end of it
  561. # [19:56] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  562. # [19:56] * MichaelC zakim, call cooper-mit
  563. # [19:56] * Zakim ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
  564. # [19:56] <Zakim> +Cooper
  565. # [19:58] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224) (Quit: Leaving...)
  566. # [19:58] * Quits: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  567. # [20:04] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
  568. # [20:12] * Parts: brucel (brucel@94.173.96.152)
  569. # [20:13] <eliot> is getting a message that "the conference is restricted at this time."
  570. # [20:14] * MichaelC suspects number of ports has been exceeded
  571. # [20:14] <Zakim> -Cooper
  572. # [20:14] * MichaelC eliot, try now
  573. # [20:14] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@173.139.107.159)
  574. # [20:14] <eliot> same thing. thanks for trying
  575. # [20:14] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Leaving.)
  576. # [20:15] * MichaelC zakim, call cooper-mit
  577. # [20:15] * Zakim ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
  578. # [20:15] <Zakim> +Cooper
  579. # [20:15] * MichaelC so next possibility is the conference wasn't scheduled for the full time span
  580. # [20:15] * MichaelC not sure how to figure that one out
  581. # [20:15] * MichaelC zakim, list conferences
  582. # [20:15] * Zakim sees HTML_WG()12:00PM, SEC_WASWG()12:00PM, WAI_UAWG()1:00PM, TAG_Weekly()1:00PM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes
  583. # [20:17] * MichaelC I think problem is the call started using the usual HTML reservation, but no reservation was made for the rest of the day
  584. # [20:17] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30)
  585. # [20:17] <eliot> ahhhhhh
  586. # [20:17] * MichaelC fixing it will require we all drop and rejoin
  587. # [20:17] * MichaelC zakim, who's on the phone?
  588. # [20:17] * Zakim sees on the phone: Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa, Cooper
  589. # [20:17] * MichaelC everyone's still on break so hard to interject and get that fixed
  590. # [20:17] <Zakim> -Clarke
  591. # [20:18] <eliot> when does break end?
  592. # [20:18] * MichaelC suipposedly 10 minutes ago :)
  593. # [20:18] * chaals is here to scribe, but break is still going. Presumably not too long...
  594. # [20:18] <eliot> ;)
  595. # [20:19] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 until 20:00?
  596. # [20:19] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
  597. # [20:19] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 from now to 20:00?
  598. # [20:19] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
  599. # [20:20] <Clarke> zakim, call Clarke
  600. # [20:20] <Zakim> I am sorry, Clarke; I do not know a number for Clarke
  601. # [20:21] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 for 6 hours?
  602. # [20:21] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
  603. # [20:21] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 for 360 minutes?
  604. # [20:21] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)18:13Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 360 minutes until 0013Z
  605. # [20:21] <Zakim> -Cooper
  606. # [20:21] * MichaelC Clarke, eliot, try now using code 26631
  607. # [20:22] <Clarke> OK
  608. # [20:22] <Zakim> - +1.650.693.aaaa
  609. # [20:22] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  610. # [20:22] <Zakim> Attendees were Radhika_Roy, tantek, eliot, Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa, hober, Cooper
  611. # [20:22] <MichaelC> zakim, this will be 26631
  612. # [20:22] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; I see Team_(html-wg)18:13Z scheduled to start now
  613. # [20:22] <MichaelC> zakim, call cooper-mit
  614. # [20:22] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
  615. # [20:22] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)18:13Z has now started
  616. # [20:22] <Zakim> +Cooper
  617. # [20:22] <Zakim> +??P0
  618. # [20:22] <Clarke> zakim, ??P0 is me
  619. # [20:22] <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
  620. # [20:22] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252)
  621. # [20:22] <Zakim> + +1.650.693.aaaa
  622. # [20:23] * Joins: f2f (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  623. # [20:23] * Joins: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  624. # [20:23] <chaals> scribe: chaals
  625. # [20:23] <chaals> q+
  626. # [20:23] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  627. # [20:23] <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
  628. # [20:23] <Zakim> On the phone I see Cooper, Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa
  629. # [20:23] <chaals> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
  630. # [20:23] <RRSAgent> ok, chaals; I will not start a new log at midnight
  631. # [20:23] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  632. # [20:23] <eliot> zakim, microsoft is eliot
  633. # [20:23] <Zakim> +eliot; got it
  634. # [20:24] <janina> zakim, aaaa is F2F
  635. # [20:24] <Zakim> +F2F; got it
  636. # [20:24] <eliot> thanks, MichaelC!
  637. # [20:24] * MichaelC np
  638. # [20:24] <chaals> q?
  639. # [20:24] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  640. # [20:24] <chaals> ack me
  641. # [20:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  642. # [20:24] <chaals> Topic: ISSUE-199
  643. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> issue-199?
  644. # [20:25] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-199
  645. # [20:25] <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
  646. # [20:25] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
  647. # [20:25] <chaals> mjs: This is about hooking things up to ARIA - what is required...
  648. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-199
  649. # [20:25] * MichaelC would help for mjs to be closer to mic
  650. # [20:25] <chaals> ... there are two proposals for this issue. Maybe we can get closer to consensus through discussion - they seem to be in the same spirit but different in technical details
  651. # [20:26] <odinho> s|http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199|-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199 ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes|
  652. # [20:26] <chaals> michaelc: Two proposals - I submitted one, Ted submitted one. And there is a critique that Hixie submitted.
  653. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIA_Processing Michael Cooper's ARIA Processing proposal
  654. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  655. # [20:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  656. # [20:27] <chaals> ... gone through them. I think we only have a couple of technical disagreements and want to focus on those. The rest is formality abou how we express things in the spec rather than technical difference - it is stil important to ensure we all nderstand the same from what the spec says.
  657. # [20:27] * Joins: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252)
  658. # [20:27] <chaals> ... First issue: should role be a single token, or a list of tokens. In my proposal it is a list, primarily for forward compatibility when new roles are introduced you can still use a fallback role.
  659. # [20:27] <chaals> ... user agent would process first value it recognises
  660. # [20:27] * Joins: bryan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  661. # [20:27] <chaals> Ted: Is this a difference?
  662. # [20:28] <chaals> michaelC: technical disagreement is whether there is value in setting up a list of tokens rather than a single value.
  663. # [20:28] <chaals> mjs: can we enumerate the issues, then go through them?
  664. # [20:28] * chaals yes
  665. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-199 Ted O'Connor's ARIA Processing proposal
  666. # [20:29] <chaals> michaelC: second issue is how we clarify the forward-compatibility model.
  667. # [20:29] <chaals> ... think my proposal was unclear but I am not sure what would make it more clear.
  668. # [20:29] <chaals> ... Third: How to make it clear that the first-recognised token gets processed. Ian had "first token", which isn't what I meant.
  669. # [20:30] <chaals> ... Fourth: allowing properties to be restricted where they are not appropriate, or allow processing to determine whether they are recognised when encoutnered.
  670. # [20:30] <chaals> ... Fifth: Should ARIA stuff be defined in HTML, or in ARIA.
  671. # [20:30] <chaals> ... Sixth: What processing shouldbe defined in HTML, what should be defined by ARIA UA implementation guide.
  672. # [20:31] <chaals> s/shouldbe/should be/
  673. # [20:31] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
  674. # [20:31] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
  675. # [20:31] <chaals> Ted: nothing to add.
  676. # [20:31] <mjs> ach richardschwerdtfe
  677. # [20:31] <richardschwerdtfe> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role
  678. # [20:31] <chaals> rich: If you look at user agent implementation guide...
  679. # [20:31] <mjs> ack richardschwerdtfe
  680. # [20:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  681. # [20:31] * MichaelC not hearing rich well either
  682. # [20:31] * Joins: Mark_Vic_ (Mark_Vicke@205.248.100.252)
  683. # [20:31] * MichaelC glad cmn is a fast scribe ;)
  684. # [20:31] * Parts: Mark_Vic_ (Mark_Vicke@205.248.100.252)
  685. # [20:31] <chaals> s|http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role|-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role aria ua implementation guide
  686. # [20:32] * Joins: Mark_Vic_ (Mark_Vicke@205.248.100.252)
  687. # [20:32] <chaals> ... says how to handle mapping between aria and native platform.
  688. # [20:32] * Quits: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  689. # [20:32] * Joins: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  690. # [20:32] <chaals> ... says where aria roles override host semantics, DOM doesn't change. UA must still map the aria roles in the accessibility interfaces.
  691. # [20:32] <chaals> Ted: Which issue is this?
  692. # [20:33] <chaals> Rich: Did you use what was here when you defined role mapping?
  693. # [20:33] <chaals> Ted: in my proposal WAI ARIA role is the first non-abstract role found - think that is the same.
  694. # [20:33] <chaals> Rich: Reason we don't just point to the table in the guide?
  695. # [20:33] <chaals> Avk: the text there is less specific.
  696. # [20:33] <chaals> s/table/role-mapping table/
  697. # [20:34] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
  698. # [20:34] <chaals> Rich: If we put this in HTML5 spec, then change ARIA in v2, will that create a problem down the road?
  699. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  700. # [20:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  701. # [20:34] <chaals> ... e.g. changingthe processing rules to deal with custom roles
  702. # [20:34] <chaals> AvK: Will the change be compatible
  703. # [20:34] <chaals> Rich: Not clear. How would we handle sub-roles available in the mac platform?
  704. # [20:34] <chaals> Cyns: Haven't started discussion on that
  705. # [20:35] <chaals> AvK: If changes are made, we change the specs.
  706. # [20:35] <chaals> Ted: If HTML.next changes to be less restrictive than HTML5 I don't see a problem. If you make an incompatible change, that can be a problem.
  707. # [20:35] <chaals> Rich: Don't think there is an issue today. But changing HTML5 is harder.
  708. # [20:35] <chaals> AvK: Presumably implementation guide needs to be stable to be referenced.
  709. # [20:35] <chaals> q+
  710. # [20:35] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  711. # [20:36] <mjs> q+
  712. # [20:36] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  713. # [20:36] <chaals> ... if change is incompatible you might have an adoption problem because it would break usage.
  714. # [20:36] <chaals> ... if user agents will change anyway, the spec can be updated too. We have done that with DOM specs...
  715. # [20:36] <chaals> s/DOM/eg DOM/
  716. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> q?
  717. # [20:36] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  718. # [20:37] <chaals> ack me
  719. # [20:37] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  720. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
  721. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> chaals: key question is, some specs are easier and faster to update than others
  722. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> ... HTML has shown itself to be relatively slow to update
  723. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> ... and to be honest ARIA has been slow also
  724. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> ... but ARIA will likely be updated sooner than HTML
  725. # [20:38] <richardschwerdtfe> q?
  726. # [20:38] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  727. # [20:38] <mjs> ack mjs
  728. # [20:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  729. # [20:38] <chaals> scribe: chaals
  730. # [20:38] * Joins: cyns (cdf86654@128.30.52.43)
  731. # [20:38] <hober> q+
  732. # [20:38] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
  733. # [20:38] <chaals> mjs: might make sense for role to be in ARIA rather than host, but ARIA chose not to do that - doesn't give a sufficeint definition of how role works. That option has previously not been taken.
  734. # [20:39] <chaals> s/than HTML/than HTML - on the other hand, more people might read HTML.../
  735. # [20:39] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
  736. # [20:39] * Zakim sees hober, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
  737. # [20:39] <chaals> mjs: not sure which issue we are discussing. Let's try getting through the 6 issues listed here and add new questions.
  738. # [20:39] <hober> q-
  739. # [20:39] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
  740. # [20:40] <odinho> s/ach richardschwerdtfe//
  741. # [20:40] <MikeSmith> -> http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/01/wai-aria-objection (some context for the record) "My Formal Objection to WAI-ARIA"
  742. # [20:40] <chaals> rich: want to make people aware that aria will be used in other host languages like SVG. If we define the processing differently in different host languages that could be problematic - might be easier to fix the issues with definition of processing in the aria implementation guide
  743. # [20:40] <chaals> ... no issue with ted's text, worried about looking forward.
  744. # [20:41] <chaals> mjs: First issue - should role be single token or list of tokens? Ted isn't sure we disagree.
  745. # [20:41] <chaals> Ted: It's a list in both proposals.
  746. # [20:41] <chaals> Cyns: Was Hixie's critique listing a single one?
  747. # [20:41] <chaals> Ted: That isn't on the table, so we don't need to discuss further
  748. # [20:41] * chaals wonders if he should record "resolutions" as RESOLUTION
  749. # [20:41] * MichaelC going to try muting non conference lines to see if it helps with duplexing
  750. # [20:41] <tantek> I'd prefer it was defined similar to other tokenlists, like 'class' and 'rel' attributes.
  751. # [20:41] <chaals> RESOLUTION: we have lists of tokens
  752. # [20:41] * MichaelC zakim, mute cooper
  753. # [20:41] * Zakim Cooper should now be muted
  754. # [20:41] * MichaelC zakim, mute eliot
  755. # [20:41] * Zakim eliot should now be muted
  756. # [20:42] <tantek> we don't need a new type of tokenlist
  757. # [20:42] * MichaelC zakim, mute clarke
  758. # [20:42] * Zakim Clarke should now be muted
  759. # [20:42] <chaals> mjs: second - clarifying forward compatibility.
  760. # [20:42] <MichaelC> ack me
  761. # [20:42] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
  762. # [20:42] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
  763. # [20:42] * Zakim sees on the phone: Cooper (muted), Clarke (muted), F2F, eliot (muted)
  764. # [20:42] * chaals notes we cant hear you here
  765. # [20:42] <plh> zakim, unmute Cooper
  766. # [20:42] <Zakim> Cooper should no longer be muted
  767. # [20:42] <mjs> MichaelC: can you expand on the "clarifying forward compatibility" issue?
  768. # [20:42] * plh magic
  769. # [20:42] * hober tantek: my proposal uses the same machinery as those other token lists, IIRC
  770. # [20:42] <tantek> thanks hober
  771. # [20:42] <chaals> s/MichaelC: can you expand on the "clarifying forward compatibility" issue?//
  772. # [20:42] <chaals> s/thanks hober//
  773. # [20:43] <tantek> btw, how can things be different in SVG? Isn't SVG just part of HTML now?
  774. # [20:43] <chaals> MC: Fprward compat model. You can provide multiple roles - newer better one first, followed by old one that is beter known. UA takes the first role it recognises.
  775. # [20:43] <plh> zakim, Cooper is really MichaelC
  776. # [20:43] <Zakim> +MichaelC; got it
  777. # [20:43] <shepazu> tantek, what does that mean, functionally?
  778. # [20:43] <chaals> ... think that was not clear enough in the change proposal that led ot people raising questions. Do we agree with that model, and how can we clarify?
  779. # [20:43] <anne> fwiw, using RESOLUTION seems wrong, as we can't resolve anything at a F2F
  780. # [20:43] <chaals> Ted: Both proposals on the table are saying the same thing.
  781. # [20:44] <tantek> regarding the what if 'role' was defined differently in HTML and SVG - I don't see how that's possible.
  782. # [20:44] <chaals> [anne, I know. But recording that at least the people at the meeting agreed on something seems helpful for finding out what happened when reading two days of minutes.]
  783. # [20:44] * MichaelC not hearing question
  784. # [20:44] <chaals> Ted: non-abstract roles get skipped... otherwise I think we agree.
  785. # [20:44] <shepazu> (tantek, I agree that that doesn't seem like the right way to frame it, but there are likely to be different role values for SVG than HTML)
  786. # [20:44] <chaals> mjs: Do you agree with ted's charcacterisation that we have the same model?
  787. # [20:45] <chaals> ... (modulo clarifying that abtracgt roles don't get picked up)?
  788. # [20:45] <chaals> s/skipped/skipped in my change proposal/
  789. # [20:45] <tantek> shepazu - I think it's best for web authors if the 'role' attribute in SVG works just like it does in HTML. similar to 'class' etc.
  790. # [20:45] * plh Michael? do you agree?
  791. # [20:45] <shepazu> s/charcacterisation/characterization/
  792. # [20:45] * chaals mjs: Do you agree with ted's charcacterisation that we have the same model?
  793. # [20:45] <chaals> MC: Yes. This issue answer Ian's critique.
  794. # [20:46] <chaals> AvK: Are implementations doing this?
  795. # [20:46] <chaals> s/this/processing this way/
  796. # [20:46] <odinho> s/abtracgt/abstract/
  797. # [20:46] <shepazu> (tantek, the processing and such, yes, but a graphics language needs different roles than a text language)
  798. # [20:46] <chaals> Rich: believe they take the first recognised non-abstract role.
  799. # [20:46] <chaals> mjs: So answer seems to be "yes, implementations do this".
  800. # [20:46] <chaals> mjs: So second issue seems to have agreement in intent. Anyone disagree with that model?
  801. # [20:47] <tantek> shepazu, I can see adding more roles - but that's up to the ARIA spec IMHO, not SVG. The abstract definition of the 'role' attribute as a holder of such values should be the same in SVG as it is in HTML.
  802. # [20:47] <chaals> RESOLUTION: Processing is to take the first recognised non-abstract role.
  803. # [20:47] * Joins: BobLund (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  804. # [20:47] <tantek> "first"? so it's not a list not a set?
  805. # [20:47] <chaals> mjs: Third issue sounds like a restatement of the issue we just discussed.
  806. # [20:47] <tantek> er, is 'role' a list not a set then?
  807. # [20:47] <shepazu> (tantek, I agree that role should work just as in HTML)
  808. # [20:47] <chaals> MC: I think the first three issues I raised are addressed now.
  809. # [20:48] <tantek> so 'role' is unlike 'class' and 'rel' then, which are *unordered* sets of values.
  810. # [20:48] <chaals> mjs: Fourth - disallowing properties where they are not appropriate, or make processing model ignore them where they are not relevant.
  811. # [20:48] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98) (Client exited)
  812. # [20:48] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
  813. # [20:48] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
  814. # [20:48] <chaals> MC: Easier to say "all properties can be used, but they are not recognised if irrelevant". Would be a big task to take the alternative and document where they cannot be used.
  815. # [20:48] <chaals> q+
  816. # [20:48] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, chaals on the speaker queue
  817. # [20:49] <chaals> Ted: There is a distinction between processing and author-conformance requirements. Would prefer leaving author confromance to aria spec to define.
  818. # [20:49] <chaals> mjs: Do the proposals defer this point as written?
  819. # [20:50] <chaals> Ted: MC proposal has text where each properties is defined and text saying where they an be used.
  820. # [20:50] <plh> ack rich
  821. # [20:50] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  822. # [20:50] <chaals> rich: I think HTML5 spec is clear on where you can apply roles or not. Tried in user agent impl guide not to do the error correct - leave it to authoring to deal with that.
  823. # [20:51] <chaals> ... ie if checkbox is not allowed on scrollbars, it is flagged as non-conforming, and test tools should flag those as errors. UA should not try to repair them.
  824. # [20:51] <chaals> mjs: Think this is different to what we are discussing.
  825. # [20:51] <chaals> ... do you mean if a role is specified that doesn't fit, and ted/MC were discussing what happens when state/properties are applied in cases they should not be relevant.
  826. # [20:51] <chaals> q?
  827. # [20:51] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  828. # [20:52] <chaals> rich: don't want the browser to have to solve the problem where things are added in the wrong place.
  829. # [20:52] <chaals> ted: We are reflecting what the author wrote. It would be weird to have markup that did not get to the DOM.
  830. # [20:52] <mjs> q+
  831. # [20:52] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
  832. # [20:52] <chaals> ack me
  833. # [20:52] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  834. # [20:52] <mjs> ack chaals
  835. # [20:52] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  836. # [20:53] <MichaelC> q+ to say the reason I raise this is the HTML spec currently documents that role can't be used on certain elements, or can only be used with certain values; while ARIA says some states and properties can only be used with certain roles and some can be used on any elements; those two make a complicated interaction that I don't know whether to document or say "implement the intersection of the...
  837. # [20:53] * Zakim sees mjs, MichaelC on the speaker queue
  838. # [20:53] <MichaelC> ...two specs"
  839. # [20:54] <mjs> ack mjs
  840. # [20:54] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  841. # [20:54] <chaals> CMN: THink we need to define in the processing model that erro correction does get done in the browser - and then make it clear which things get corrected where.
  842. # [20:55] <chaals> mjs: Not sure what the specific difference is between the proposals
  843. # [20:55] <chaals> Ted: nor am I
  844. # [20:55] <mjs> ack MichaelC
  845. # [20:55] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say the reason I raise this is the HTML spec currently documents that role can't be used on certain elements, or can only be used with certain values; while
  846. # [20:55] <Zakim> ... ARIA says some states and properties can only be used with certain roles and some can be used on any elements; those two make a complicated interaction that I don't know
  847. # [20:55] <Zakim> ... whether to document or say "implement the intersection of the...
  848. # [20:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  849. # [20:55] <odinho> s/...two specs"//
  850. # [20:55] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
  851. # [20:55] <J_Voracek>
  852. # [20:55] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Quit: disconnected: Jace Voracek - Jace@Jace-Place.com)
  853. # [20:56] <chaals> MC: Do we want to document the intersection and specify it, or point to the two sets of rules and tell implementors to figure it out?
  854. # [20:56] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
  855. # [20:56] <chaals> q+ to say please specify it.
  856. # [20:56] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  857. # [20:56] <chaals> mjs: Is there a part of the proposal that addresses this question?
  858. # [20:57] <chaals> MC: My proposal doesn't address that question. I think failure to address it led to concern - don't know if they wanted more or less...
  859. # [20:57] <chaals> mjs: MC is suggesting we may want to define something that neither proposal does. That isn't a point of difference, it is a separate question to be decided.
  860. # [20:57] <chaals> q-
  861. # [20:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  862. # [20:57] <chaals> Ted: sure
  863. # [20:58] <chaals> [general agreement that we aren't facing a disagreement to resolve]
  864. # [20:58] <chaals> mjs: Should aria 'stuff' be defined in HTML or in ARIA specs?
  865. # [20:59] <chaals> MC: In my proposal I defined all state and property attributes. Concern was that redefining these in HTML leadas to duplication -> error. This is auto-generated so should be possible to keep in synch. Agree that duplication is potentially problematic.
  866. # [20:59] <chaals> ... Did it because I think HTML needs to be clear what is happening. Countr-proposal was where math/svg in HTML just defers to those specs.
  867. # [20:59] <richardschwerdtfe> q?
  868. # [20:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  869. # [21:00] <chaals> ... difference is that ARIA doesn't have a root element to anchor the definition from. But that might not matter - should it be removed?
  870. # [21:00] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
  871. # [21:00] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
  872. # [21:00] <shepazu> q+
  873. # [21:00] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, shepazu on the speaker queue
  874. # [21:00] <chaals> Ted: Think the ARIA documents define what the properties mean and how to use them. duplicating that is a potential source of synchronisation error later - and at minimum introduces a maintenance cost that I don't thnk we need to incur.
  875. # [21:01] <chaals> ... you already have to read the referenced specs to implenent HTML so not sure what is different here.
  876. # [21:01] <mjs> ach richardschwerdtfe
  877. # [21:01] <mjs> ack richardschwerdtfe
  878. # [21:01] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
  879. # [21:01] <chaals> rich: THink the ARIA spec should define values for role, state, property. We also have to address other host languages. So I agree with Ted.
  880. # [21:01] <chaals> ... anything we do needs to be coordinated anyway with other hosts.
  881. # [21:01] <tantek> shouldn't defining 'role' be similar to the definition for the 'style' attribute between HTML and the CSS 'style' attribute spec?
  882. # [21:02] <MichaelC> q+ to say I was also concerned about impacts of the two technologies evolving on different timelines; that was discussed earlier today but couldn't follow well
  883. # [21:02] * Zakim sees shepazu, MichaelC on the speaker queue
  884. # [21:02] <chaals> ... HTML should define restrictions it makes specifically to HTML, if necessary.
  885. # [21:02] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-style-attr/
  886. # [21:02] <mjs> ack shepazu
  887. # [21:02] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  888. # [21:02] * chaals hears rich saying what tantek said
  889. # [21:02] <tantek> Thanks chaals - I was hoping we were saying similar things but I wasn't sure.
  890. # [21:02] <tantek> and I wanted to provide a concrete existing example (perhaps to mimic)
  891. # [21:03] <chaals> shepazu: What do people think would be different between svg and html in hosting aria. SVG does not want to redefine processing or rules from ARIA if we can get away with it. There are different roles required, but don't think there would be a difference in processing.
  892. # [21:03] <mjs> ack MichaelC
  893. # [21:03] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say I was also concerned about impacts of the two technologies evolving on different timelines; that was discussed earlier today but couldn't follow well
  894. # [21:03] <chaals> rich: Think we are in violent agreement.
  895. # [21:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  896. # [21:03] * shepazu shoots rich in a non-violent way :P
  897. # [21:03] <chaals> MC: Not sure what it means for HTML5 conformance if ARIA evolves on a different timeline. Whatever direction we go seems OK though.
  898. # [21:04] <chaals> mjs: Seems general sense of the room is to delegate the definitions to ARIA by reference, rather than copy them in.
  899. # [21:04] <tantek> for the HTML5 definition of the 'style' attribute see: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/global-attributes.html#the-style-attribute which links to http://www.w3.org/TR/css-style-attr/ for what goes into the attribute (complete syntax of it).
  900. # [21:04] <chaals> RESOLUTION: leave the definitions in the ARIA spec and reference them from HTML
  901. # [21:04] <tantek> perhaps entire syntax of 'role' attribute must be defined in the ARIA spec, and have it defined by reference in HTML5.
  902. # [21:05] <chaals> mjs: What processing should be defined in HTML, what should be defined by ARIA?
  903. # [21:05] <anne> tantek: as long as they use the same definition of space characters
  904. # [21:05] <tantek> anne - agreed
  905. # [21:05] <chaals> MC: Intended to provide informative explanation of what is define in user agent guide, but reference that for normative requirement. I think that was confusing.
  906. # [21:05] <tantek> anne - is there any such issue of space characters in CSS style attr?
  907. # [21:05] <chaals> ... how much should be included even if only in an informative manner (if any).
  908. # [21:06] <anne> tantek: no because that takes CSS
  909. # [21:06] <chaals> Ted: Proposal defines processing for role, because it wasn't available directly from ARIA. For same reason as before, I would rather have this defined in ARIA spec.
  910. # [21:06] <mjs> q?
  911. # [21:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  912. # [21:06] <chaals> [no further comment]
  913. # [21:07] * chaals agrees with ted.
  914. # [21:07] <tantek> anne, if ARIA normatively references HTML for definition of space characters, would that be sufficient?
  915. # [21:07] <chaals> mjs: If proposals are aligned, except where ted did it different consensus follows ted, it sounds like you guys could align a single proposal.
  916. # [21:07] <chaals> ... MC, Ted, can you do that?
  917. # [21:07] <chaals> Ted: Sure...
  918. # [21:08] * MichaelC suspects minor tweaks to Ted's version can make it
  919. # [21:08] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@70.89.66.218)
  920. # [21:08] <anne> tantek: it's fine if they copy it
  921. # [21:08] <chaals> ACTION: Ted to outline a timeline for producing an aligned change proposal to address ISSUEE-199. Due in 2 weeks
  922. # [21:08] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  923. # [21:08] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Ted
  924. # [21:08] * RRSAgent records action 1
  925. # [21:08] <tantek> ok - I just figure by reference would have less chance of drift over time.
  926. # [21:09] <anne> tantek: but I guess you really want to reuse the definition of space-separated attribute values (forgot the name of that)
  927. # [21:09] <chaals> [adjourned for lunch: 1 hour]
  928. # [21:09] <tantek> also by reference avoids temptation to tweak the definition for "editorial" reasons which end up being functional.
  929. # [21:09] * hober chaals: i think i've managed to avoid teaching trackbot how to assign me actions :)
  930. # [21:09] <tantek> anne - right
  931. # [21:10] <chaals> trackbot, who is hober?
  932. # [21:10] <trackbot> Sorry, chaals, I don't understand 'trackbot, who is hober?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  933. # [21:10] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  934. # [21:10] <Clarke> If I drop the phone, will I be able to reconnect after lunch?
  935. # [21:10] <plh> yes, you should be
  936. # [21:10] <eliot> what are you doing?
  937. # [21:10] * Quits: BobLund (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  938. # [21:10] * chaals thinks you will clarkes
  939. # [21:10] <eliot> lunch?
  940. # [21:10] <plh> yes
  941. # [21:10] * MichaelC thanks all - ping if needed to rejoin, otherwise will stay off
  942. # [21:10] <eliot> ok
  943. # [21:10] <Zakim> -MichaelC
  944. # [21:10] <Zakim> -eliot
  945. # [21:10] <chaals> trackbot, status?
  946. # [21:10] * trackbot knows about the following 29 users: Lachlan, Matthew, Larry, Michael[tm], Doug, Gregory, Philippe, Everett, Julian, Laura, Shawn, Cynthia, Henri, Maciej, James, Adrian, Frank, Richard, Ben, Joshue, Kris, Manu, Sam, Michael, Ian, Paul, Janina, David, Steve
  947. # [21:10] <Zakim> -Clarke
  948. # [21:11] <odinho> s/yes, you should be//
  949. # [21:11] <odinho> s/what are you doing?//
  950. # [21:11] <odinho> s/lunch?//
  951. # [21:11] <odinho> s/yes//
  952. # [21:11] <odinho> s/ok//
  953. # [21:12] * Quits: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  954. # [21:12] * odinho RRSAgent, generate minutes
  955. # [21:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html odinho
  956. # [21:12] * Quits: mark (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  957. # [21:12] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  958. # [21:13] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  959. # [21:18] * Quits: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  960. # [21:19] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252)
  961. # [21:19] * Quits: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  962. # [21:19] * Quits: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  963. # [21:19] * Quits: Mark_Vic_ (Mark_Vicke@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
  964. # [21:21] * Quits: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  965. # [21:21] * Quits: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
  966. # [21:21] * Joins: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252)
  967. # [21:22] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
  968. # [21:22] * Quits: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  969. # [21:24] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  970. # [21:26] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  971. # [21:28] * Quits: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  972. # [21:29] * Quits: acolwell (acolwell@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  973. # [21:29] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  974. # [21:29] * Joins: richardschwerdt-1 (RichS@205.248.100.252)
  975. # [21:29] * Quits: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  976. # [21:30] * Joins: drublic (drublic@93.132.244.75)
  977. # [21:32] * Quits: richardschwerdt-1 (RichS@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  978. # [21:34] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@173.139.107.159) (Quit: Leaving...)
  979. # [21:34] * Quits: hiroki (h_yamada@128.30.52.28) (Client exited)
  980. # [21:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
  981. # [21:39] * Quits: laura (laura@131.212.219.176) (Quit: laura)
  982. # [21:42] * Quits: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  983. # [21:47] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224)
  984. # [21:50] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Quit: disconnected: Jace Voracek - Jace@Jace-Place.com)
  985. # [22:01] * Joins: frankolivier (cdf86654@109.169.29.95)
  986. # [22:04] * chaals wonders if mikesmith can add hober/TedO'C to http://www.w3.org/Team/2005/08/jdbe.php3?table=ircnicks&db=tracker&mode=Choose+Table
  987. # [22:05] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
  988. # [22:10] * Quits: paulc (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  989. # [22:14] * Joins: timeless (u4015@88.198.6.68)
  990. # [22:14] <timeless> Scribe: Josh_Soref
  991. # [22:14] <timeless> scribenick: timeless
  992. # [22:14] * Quits: magnus (magnus@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  993. # [22:14] <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
  994. # [22:14] * Joins: acolwell (acolwell@205.248.100.252)
  995. # [22:15] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252)
  996. # [22:15] * Joins: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252)
  997. # [22:15] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  998. # [22:15] * Joins: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252)
  999. # [22:16] * Joins: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1000. # [22:16] <timeless> Topic: Canvas Hit Testing
  1001. # [22:17] <timeless> Zakim, pointer?
  1002. # [22:17] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, timeless.
  1003. # [22:17] <timeless> Zakim, what is this?
  1004. # [22:17] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, timeless.
  1005. # [22:17] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252)
  1006. # [22:17] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  1007. # [22:17] <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F
  1008. # [22:17] * Joins: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252)
  1009. # [22:17] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@205.248.100.252)
  1010. # [22:17] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  1011. # [22:17] <timeless> Zakim, Josh_Soref has joined F2F
  1012. # [22:17] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'Josh_Soref'
  1013. # [22:17] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  1014. # [22:17] <eliot> zakim, microsoft is me
  1015. # [22:17] <Zakim> +eliot; got it
  1016. # [22:17] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252)
  1017. # [22:18] <eliot> zakim, mute me
  1018. # [22:18] <Zakim> eliot should now be muted
  1019. # [22:18] * Joins: hiroki (h_yamada@128.30.52.28)
  1020. # [22:18] <timeless> frankolivier: we have two proposals
  1021. # [22:18] <timeless> ... very close
  1022. # [22:18] <timeless> ... if we combine the two
  1023. # [22:18] <timeless> ... i think we'll have something that solves one of the accessibility proposals for <canvas>
  1024. # [22:19] <timeless> ... in both proposals, there's something about defining a path
  1025. # [22:19] <timeless> ... in one it's an element in the canvas
  1026. # [22:19] <timeless> ... in the other, it could be in the DOM, or a lightweight object
  1027. # [22:19] <timeless> ... the other spec text
  1028. # [22:19] * Joins: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1029. # [22:19] <timeless> ... that's been proposed for <canvas>
  1030. # [22:19] <timeless> ... don't solve accessibility issues
  1031. # [22:19] * Joins: BobLund (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1032. # [22:19] <timeless> ... i'd like to address them later
  1033. # [22:19] <Russell_Berkoff> Present+ Russell_Berkoff(Samsung)
  1034. # [22:19] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1035. # [22:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1036. # [22:20] <timeless> hober: it's true that the spec changes in my proposal cover more UCs than just accessibility needs
  1037. # [22:20] <timeless> ... in this case
  1038. # [22:20] <timeless> ... that's a good thing
  1039. # [22:20] * Joins: magnus (magnus@205.248.100.252)
  1040. # [22:20] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1041. # [22:20] <timeless> ... the accessibility requirements can be addressed with requirements that can be used for other things as well
  1042. # [22:21] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: hober, can you walk us through the proposed changes?
  1043. # [22:21] <timeless> hober: sure, let me pull up the diffs
  1044. # [22:21] <anne> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html
  1045. # [22:22] <timeless> s|http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html|-> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html Canvas v5 API additions|
  1046. # [22:22] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1047. # [22:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1048. # [22:22] <timeless> hober: the proposed changes
  1049. # [22:22] <timeless> ... allow drawing elipses
  1050. # [22:22] <timeless> ... paths
  1051. # [22:22] <timeless> ... text alignment paths
  1052. # [22:23] <timeless> ... and define a cursor
  1053. # [22:23] <timeless> ... for each accessible region
  1054. # [22:23] <timeless> ... new text metrics
  1055. # [22:23] <timeless> ... Hixie's email covers more changes than in my proposal
  1056. # [22:23] * timeless hober "... paths" is probably wrong
  1057. # [22:23] * timeless what was that supposed to be?
  1058. # [22:23] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: there was this measure-text piece
  1059. # [22:23] <timeless> ... how does that fit in?
  1060. # [22:24] <timeless> hober: you are using this for canvas control
  1061. # [22:24] <timeless> ... for some complex effect
  1062. # [22:24] <timeless> ... and have something corresponding to a label
  1063. # [22:25] <timeless> ... being able to make the area around that text clickable
  1064. # [22:25] <timeless> ... easily requires metrics access
  1065. # [22:25] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: so it's for the purpose of calculating the text region
  1066. # [22:25] <timeless> frankolivier: are there two separate issues
  1067. # [22:25] <timeless> ... 1. UI controls
  1068. # [22:25] <timeless> ... 2. defining text
  1069. # [22:25] <timeless> anne: with text metrics, there's already api
  1070. # [22:25] <timeless> ... these are additions
  1071. # [22:26] <timeless> ... for graphics applications, since you don't always know which font is going to be used
  1072. # [22:26] <timeless> ... some things will need that information
  1073. # [22:26] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: so this is more than just hit-testing
  1074. # [22:26] <Zakim> +??P3
  1075. # [22:26] <timeless> anne: Hixie looked at <canvas> feedback over the last 3 years
  1076. # [22:26] <Clarke> zakim, ??P3 is me
  1077. # [22:26] <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
  1078. # [22:26] <timeless> ... and added all the things that people were requesting with good use cases
  1079. # [22:27] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  1080. # [22:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F, eliot (muted), Clarke
  1081. # [22:27] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: when we add hit region
  1082. # [22:27] <timeless> ... there's additional parameters that were added
  1083. # [22:27] <timeless> ... tied to lightweight JSON objects
  1084. # [22:27] <timeless> ... for accessibility
  1085. # [22:27] <Clarke> zakim, mute me
  1086. # [22:27] <Zakim> Clarke should now be muted
  1087. # [22:27] <timeless> ... if you have these things, i need to have a test tool
  1088. # [22:27] <timeless> ... analyzing for accessibility find this
  1089. # [22:27] <timeless> ... and it needs to be mappable to the api
  1090. # [22:28] <timeless> hober: for accessibility
  1091. # [22:28] <timeless> ... you'd listen for the API call
  1092. # [22:28] * Quits: nesta_ (nesta_@83.52.124.12) (Quit: nesta_)
  1093. # [22:28] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: these are browser plugins that do this
  1094. # [22:28] <timeless> ... how do you overload this?
  1095. # [22:28] <timeless> anne: in JS you can overload anything
  1096. # [22:29] <timeless> ... and a browser extension can do this
  1097. # [22:29] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: these things are lightweight
  1098. # [22:29] <timeless> ... and they might belong to the DOM?
  1099. # [22:29] <timeless> hober: there are two things
  1100. # [22:29] <timeless> ... elements themselves
  1101. # [22:29] <timeless> ... or a description of a javascript object
  1102. # [22:29] <timeless> ... in terms of wiring up to the Accessibility Tree
  1103. # [22:29] <timeless> ... that could be done by the UA
  1104. # [22:29] * Quits: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252) (Quit: mjs)
  1105. # [22:29] * Joins: paulc (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1106. # [22:30] <timeless> ... if one hit region is contained in another
  1107. # [22:30] <timeless> ... that could get complicated
  1108. # [22:30] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: how do you make those elements keyboard navigable?
  1109. # [22:30] <timeless> anne: the browser does that
  1110. # [22:30] <timeless> ... hit regions would be added to focus order
  1111. # [22:30] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: it's not just fully defined then?
  1112. # [22:31] <timeless> hober: i'm sure the editor would like to hear
  1113. # [22:31] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: these elements are not in the DOM?
  1114. # [22:31] <timeless> ... they can't take properties
  1115. # [22:31] <timeless> ... like Role/Label
  1116. # [22:31] <timeless> hober: not if they need aria-properties
  1117. # [22:31] <timeless> cyns: can you help me understand the value of these?
  1118. # [22:32] <timeless> hober: it's difficult to discretely identify
  1119. # [22:32] <timeless> ... suppose you have a <canvas>
  1120. # [22:32] <timeless> ... emulating a Pitri dish
  1121. # [22:32] <timeless> ... clicking on the Canvas drops a complex reagent
  1122. # [22:32] <timeless> ... there might not a be a point on the canvas corresponding to a discrete object
  1123. # [22:32] <timeless> ... you might want hit regions
  1124. # [22:32] <timeless> ... but it would be difficult to describe in a dom tree
  1125. # [22:32] <timeless> ... saying "that's a div'ish thing"
  1126. # [22:32] <timeless> ... "now there's two blobs"
  1127. # [22:33] <timeless> ... the reason we use it, is because there isn't a better option
  1128. # [22:33] <timeless> cyns: let's treat div as a rectangle
  1129. # [22:33] <timeless> ... it seems like you could have divs that transcribe the areas
  1130. # [22:33] <timeless> ... why are these JSON objects better?
  1131. # [22:33] <timeless> hober: they're much smaller
  1132. # [22:33] <timeless> ... let's say you had a 2000x2000 canvas
  1133. # [22:33] <timeless> ... using 2000 * 2000 div elements
  1134. # [22:34] <timeless> ... would be bad
  1135. # [22:34] <timeless> ... it isn't reasonable to ask them to use the dom
  1136. # [22:34] <timeless> ... why use the canvas?
  1137. # [22:34] <timeless> cyns: most people seem to be using it because it's trendy
  1138. # [22:34] <timeless> hober: frankolivier had a great example
  1139. # [22:34] <timeless> ... using a distinct canvas object per word in a string of text
  1140. # [22:34] <timeless> ... our answer should be "don't do that"
  1141. # [22:35] <timeless> frankolivier: tying every accessible object onto the dom is going to be very expensive
  1142. # [22:35] <timeless> ... is that the more common or the less common?
  1143. # [22:35] <timeless> hober: fortunately, this proposal addresses both
  1144. # [22:35] <timeless> ... i don't know, let's find out
  1145. # [22:35] <chaals> q+ mjs
  1146. # [22:35] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  1147. # [22:35] <richardschwerdtfe> q?
  1148. # [22:35] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  1149. # [22:35] <timeless> anne: if you have an element based thing, you should use svg
  1150. # [22:35] <timeless> frankolivier: tying those elements to a dot is a bit much
  1151. # [22:35] <timeless> ... but there will be more examples of tying to a checkbox
  1152. # [22:36] <timeless> hober: i'm not particularly interested in counting
  1153. # [22:36] <timeless> ack mj
  1154. # [22:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1155. # [22:36] <timeless> ack mjs
  1156. # [22:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1157. # [22:36] <chaals> q+ to say I think ew should be caring about the data that motivates the use cases
  1158. # [22:36] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  1159. # [22:36] <timeless> mjs: there's another purpose to lightweight hit regions
  1160. # [22:36] <timeless> ... you could associate multiple hit regions to a single element and distinguish between them
  1161. # [22:36] * Quits: davidb (davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb)
  1162. # [22:36] <timeless> ... similar to a ComboBox
  1163. # [22:37] <timeless> ... this is supported by AddHitRegion
  1164. # [22:37] <timeless> ... but not supported by the other proposal
  1165. # [22:37] <timeless> frankolivier: i think we agree on needing to solve this problem
  1166. # [22:37] <timeless> ... i don't think we see a big problem to lightweight elements
  1167. # [22:37] <timeless> ... i think it'd be good to combine the change proposals
  1168. # [22:37] <timeless> hober: does my proposal not address everything
  1169. # [22:37] <timeless> frankolivier: i think keyboard navigation, or overlapping hit regions
  1170. # [22:37] <timeless> ... but if you combine the two...
  1171. # [22:38] <timeless> hober: can we take that offline and do that
  1172. # [22:38] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: where in the proposal do you address clearing
  1173. # [22:38] <timeless> ... paths
  1174. # [22:38] <timeless> ... talking w/ Devs @ SXSW
  1175. # [22:38] <timeless> ... they need to be able to remove them
  1176. # [22:38] <chaals> q-
  1177. # [22:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1178. # [22:39] * timeless rests
  1179. # [22:40] <hober> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#clear-regions-that-cover-the-pixels
  1180. # [22:40] <timeless> Chair: Sam Ruby
  1181. # [22:40] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1182. # [22:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1183. # [22:40] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: it describes the process
  1184. # [22:41] <timeless> ... is there a method that does it?
  1185. # [22:41] <timeless> hober: addHitRegion -- step 18
  1186. # [22:42] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: addHitRegion, clearRect are the "3 ways"?
  1187. # [22:42] <timeless> hober: off by one error
  1188. # [22:42] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: you put a new path
  1189. # [22:42] <timeless> ... you can put an empty path to remove it?
  1190. # [22:42] <timeless> frankolivier: how do you store the hit regions?
  1191. # [22:42] <timeless> hober: there's a concept of a hit region list
  1192. # [22:42] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: lightweight paths
  1193. # [22:43] <timeless> ... do you have text associated with the objects?
  1194. # [22:43] <timeless> hober: just role and label
  1195. # [22:43] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: is the label rendered?
  1196. # [22:43] <timeless> hober: no
  1197. # [22:43] <timeless> shepazu: it's like alt
  1198. # [22:44] * Quits: dveditz (dveditz@205.248.100.252) (Quit: dveditz)
  1199. # [22:44] <timeless> shepazu: any visible rendered text
  1200. # [22:45] <timeless> ... would still be rendered through the "text api"
  1201. # [22:45] <timeless> frankolivier: what about ATs that go to the DOM itself?
  1202. # [22:45] <timeless> s/frankolivier/richardschwerdtfe/
  1203. # [22:46] <timeless> ... for Firefox, AAs go to the AT tree
  1204. # [22:46] <timeless> ... but for IE to be backwards compat, they go to the DOM
  1205. # [22:46] <timeless> s/ATs/AAs/
  1206. # [22:46] <timeless> frankolivier: we might have to tell the AAs to go to the AT
  1207. # [22:46] <timeless> ... do you have concern about aria roles for lightweight objects?
  1208. # [22:46] * Quits: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  1209. # [22:46] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: i'm concerned that we can't put other properties beside label
  1210. # [22:46] <timeless> ... if we start working on SVG
  1211. # [22:47] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1212. # [22:47] <timeless> ... and we start introducing new properties pertinent to graphics
  1213. # [22:47] <timeless> ... a drawing is a drawing
  1214. # [22:47] <timeless> hober: this proposal allows you to use the DOM elements
  1215. # [22:47] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: why don't we add that capability when we merge it?
  1216. # [22:48] <timeless> mjs: in the whatwg spec
  1217. # [22:48] <timeless> ... HitRegion takes a dictionary
  1218. # [22:48] <timeless> ... so you could add more properties
  1219. # [22:49] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: aside from ellipses, text, and paths
  1220. # [22:49] <timeless> ... does anyone want to talk about them?
  1221. # [22:49] <timeless> hober: there have been many changes relevant to the canvas part of the spec
  1222. # [22:49] <timeless> ... the revisions in my detailed proposal
  1223. # [22:49] <timeless> ... are limited to this
  1224. # [22:49] * timeless thinks
  1225. # [22:49] <timeless> paulc: they were added in the same week
  1226. # [22:50] <timeless> ... but there was a distinct dividing line
  1227. # [22:50] <timeless> frankolivier: i think it would be worthwhile to focus on the Accessibility features first
  1228. # [22:50] <timeless> sam: it sounds like everyone agrees
  1229. # [22:50] <timeless> ... i haven't heard objections
  1230. # [22:51] <timeless> paulc: i can find you another room
  1231. # [22:51] <timeless> frankolivier: i can suggest edits to the other change proposal
  1232. # [22:51] <timeless> hober: just go change it
  1233. # [22:51] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: i can work w/ frankolivier on it next week
  1234. # [22:51] <timeless> sam: hober can watch it
  1235. # [22:51] <timeless> ... and work on it in his spare time
  1236. # [22:52] <timeless> ... are we done with this topic, for now, at least?
  1237. # [22:52] <timeless> [ RESOLVED ]
  1238. # [22:52] <timeless> trackbot, issue-194?
  1239. # [22:52] <trackbot> Sorry, timeless, I don't understand 'trackbot, issue-194?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  1240. # [22:52] <timeless> issue-194?
  1241. # [22:52] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-194
  1242. # [22:52] <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
  1243. # [22:52] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
  1244. # [22:52] <timeless> issue-183?
  1245. # [22:52] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-183
  1246. # [22:52] <trackbot> ISSUE-183 -- Enhance and simplify the time element -- open
  1247. # [22:52] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/183
  1248. # [22:52] <timeless> issue-184?
  1249. # [22:52] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-184
  1250. # [22:52] <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
  1251. # [22:52] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
  1252. # [22:53] <timeless> sam: i know tantek wanted time for time+data
  1253. # [22:53] <timeless> ... any other interest
  1254. # [22:53] <timeless> adrianba: you, tantek, were proposing rather than a specific topic of time+data
  1255. # [22:53] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252)
  1256. # [22:53] <timeless> ... but "how do we decide when we work on a new element?"
  1257. # [22:54] <timeless> tantek_: it might be useful to split the discussion into two pieces
  1258. # [22:54] <timeless> ... time+data
  1259. # [22:54] <timeless> ... and then methodology for HTML.next
  1260. # [22:54] <timeless> ... if that's acceptable
  1261. # [22:54] <timeless> adrianba: either way works
  1262. # [22:55] <timeless> i/i know tantek/Topic: Time and Data element/
  1263. # [22:56] <timeless> tantek_: this is a follow on
  1264. # [22:56] <timeless> ... for an online discussion
  1265. # [22:56] * Quits: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94) (Client exited)
  1266. # [22:56] <timeless> ... it came up @TPAC
  1267. # [22:56] <timeless> ... we reached a consensus in the room
  1268. # [22:56] <timeless> ... which was fairly solid
  1269. # [22:56] <timeless> ... and then we made progresssome made their way through
  1270. # [22:56] * Joins: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94)
  1271. # [22:56] <timeless> s/progresssome made their way through/progress/
  1272. # [22:56] <timeless> ... some made their way through
  1273. # [22:56] <timeless> ... and some are working their way through
  1274. # [22:57] <timeless> ... the counter proposal to drop the time element
  1275. # [22:57] * Quits: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94) (Connection reset by peer)
  1276. # [22:57] <timeless> ... and instead enhance the data element with a time attribute
  1277. # [22:57] <timeless> ... which i think is harder to use
  1278. # [22:57] * Joins: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94)
  1279. # [22:57] <timeless> sam: i thought there was a CfC to accept the time element
  1280. # [22:57] <timeless> tantek_: there was, and it was accepted
  1281. # [22:58] <timeless> sam: there was a counter proposal to add to data
  1282. # [22:58] * Quits: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94) (Client exited)
  1283. # [22:58] * Joins: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94)
  1284. # [22:58] <timeless> ... but it didn't have sufficient justification put forward
  1285. # [22:58] <timeless> ... and i haven't seen that
  1286. # [22:58] <timeless> tantek_: ok
  1287. # [22:58] * Quits: frankolivier (cdf86654@109.169.29.95) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  1288. # [22:58] <timeless> ... i'd like to propose, as a way of moving forward
  1289. # [22:58] <timeless> ... is that the group decide that adding the time-type to data is a new feature
  1290. # [22:58] <timeless> ... and we don't add it to html5
  1291. # [22:58] <timeless> sam: i'm reticent to make a decision today in this room
  1292. # [22:59] <timeless> ... STRAW PROPOSAL
  1293. # [22:59] <timeless> ... is that if there was a type= attribute added to the <data> element, it would be done post HTML5
  1294. # [22:59] <timeless> ... STRAW POLL: is there anyone in the room who would object to that?
  1295. # [22:59] <timeless> paulc: typically, when you design something like this
  1296. # [22:59] <timeless> ... what's the default value
  1297. # [22:59] * anne I'd like to object to wasting time on this, but I guess that's too meta
  1298. # [23:00] <timeless> ... in the case you don't have the attribute and it doesn't occur
  1299. # [23:00] <timeless> ... what's the equivalent without a value?
  1300. # [23:00] <timeless> mjs: i don't think the proposal makes it clear
  1301. # [23:00] * anne hmm, now I wish I did
  1302. # [23:00] <timeless> paulc: looking into the future
  1303. # [23:00] <timeless> ... what would it do if it's optional
  1304. # [23:01] <timeless> mjs: i'm saying the person isn't in the room
  1305. # [23:01] <timeless> sam: if this type attribute were added and no one in the room is advocating
  1306. # [23:01] <timeless> ... how would we address it?
  1307. # [23:01] <timeless> ... i understand your point
  1308. # [23:01] <timeless> ... people who propose such things should define such things
  1309. # [23:01] <timeless> ... we as cochairs did indicate it was deficient
  1310. # [23:01] <timeless> ... i don't believe we've timed it out yet
  1311. # [23:02] <timeless> s/your/your, paulc's,/
  1312. # [23:02] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1313. # [23:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1314. # [23:02] <timeless> paulc: you sent your proposal on the 18th
  1315. # [23:03] <timeless> sam: we accepted tantek_'s proposal for data + time
  1316. # [23:03] <timeless> ... there are remaining sub proposals that haven't made coherent arguments
  1317. # [23:03] <timeless> tantek_: i'm claiming the proposals are feature additions that we can postpone
  1318. # [23:04] <timeless> paulc: the change proposal was Mar 27
  1319. # [23:04] <timeless> ... "enhance the data element with a type system proposal"
  1320. # [23:04] <timeless> ... this hasn't been touched since Feb 9
  1321. # [23:05] <timeless> sam: in that case, we should mark as defered
  1322. # [23:05] <timeless> ... it looks like it's quite likely we have consensus on 183 and 184
  1323. # [23:05] <timeless> tantek_: and the broader discussion we can have in HTML.next
  1324. # [23:05] <timeless> sam: we're missing a participant on 194
  1325. # [23:06] <timeless> cyns: i haven't reached him
  1326. # [23:06] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@63.245.220.240)
  1327. # [23:06] <timeless> JF: we'd like to get Shawn Hayes, Microsoft, to dial in to join us
  1328. # [23:06] <timeless> ... if we postpone to tomorrow
  1329. # [23:06] <timeless> paulc: where's he based?
  1330. # [23:06] <timeless> JF: UK
  1331. # [23:06] <adrianba> s/Shawn/Sean/
  1332. # [23:06] <timeless> paulc: so proposing to do this now was a bad idea
  1333. # [23:07] <timeless> ... we should do this @9am tomorrow
  1334. # [23:07] <timeless> eric_carlson: I won't be here tomorrow
  1335. # [23:07] <timeless> tantek_: on the previous subject
  1336. # [23:07] <timeless> ISSUE-185?
  1337. # [23:07] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-185
  1338. # [23:07] <trackbot> ISSUE-185 -- Drop the pubdate attribute -- open
  1339. # [23:07] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/185
  1340. # [23:07] <timeless> tantek_: ... drop the pubdata attribute
  1341. # [23:08] * Joins: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252)
  1342. # [23:09] * Joins: nesta_ (nesta_@77.208.154.61)
  1343. # [23:10] <timeless> tantek_: the summary of the proposal
  1344. # [23:10] <timeless> ... is we can drop pubdata
  1345. # [23:10] <timeless> s/pubdata/pubdate/
  1346. # [23:10] <timeless> ... because it lacks nontrivial use outside of hatom usage
  1347. # [23:10] <timeless> ... which provides a superset of the functionality
  1348. # [23:11] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0738.html
  1349. # [23:11] <timeless> i/previous subject/Topic: Pubdate/
  1350. # [23:11] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
  1351. # [23:11] <timeless> paulc: you, sam, on tantek_ 's proposal
  1352. # [23:12] <timeless> tantek_: wordpress templates use in hatom
  1353. # [23:12] * Quits: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  1354. # [23:12] <timeless> sam: it's not in dispute that it's used
  1355. # [23:13] <timeless> sam: we could update the change proposal and say it's defficient
  1356. # [23:13] <timeless> ... or do a survey
  1357. # [23:13] <timeless> ... if you point out that
  1358. # [23:13] <timeless> ... it's not in dispute that it's in use
  1359. # [23:13] <timeless> ... but it's in dispute that it's necessary
  1360. # [23:13] <timeless> tantek_: the other proposal is to add a MODDATE attribute
  1361. # [23:13] <timeless> ... and i claim that's a new feature and say that's for HTML.next
  1362. # [23:14] <timeless> sam: all valid things to put in a survey
  1363. # [23:14] <timeless> ... so if it becomes a formal objection, we can point to the survey
  1364. # [23:14] <timeless> ... "everyone had an opportunity to comment"
  1365. # [23:14] <timeless> paulc: i'm suggesting that the chair's review of the revised change proposal
  1366. # [23:14] <timeless> ... will ask you to review that additional change proposal
  1367. # [23:15] <timeless> ... if we get that out of the way, it's very likely that if the review doesn't turn up anything else
  1368. # [23:15] <timeless> ... we can go to survey ASAP
  1369. # [23:15] <timeless> ISSUE-194?
  1370. # [23:15] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-194
  1371. # [23:15] <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
  1372. # [23:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
  1373. # [23:15] <timeless> Topic: Transcript with Audio/Video Element - Part 1
  1374. # [23:16] <timeless> paulc: JF sent a link
  1375. # [23:16] <timeless> ... and there was a request for a change proposal update
  1376. # [23:16] <paulc> Review of ISSUE-194: As such, we will not accept the @transcript proposal until it is updated to contain a set of edit instructions, specific enough that they can be applied without ambiguity, and contains answers to the questions posed in the counter change proposal.
  1377. # [23:16] <timeless> JF: I have not done that
  1378. # [23:16] <timeless> ... we require a programmatic means of finding an associable element
  1379. # [23:16] <timeless> ... one is an attribute
  1380. # [23:16] <timeless> ... the other is a no change proposal
  1381. # [23:17] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-194
  1382. # [23:17] <timeless> ... the other proposal is to defer to HTML.next
  1383. # [23:17] <timeless> ... that's a bit of a non-starter
  1384. # [23:17] <timeless> ... it leaves a gaping hole from the Accessibility perspective
  1385. # [23:17] <timeless> ... hober had done a review of a couple of different patterns
  1386. # [23:17] <timeless> ... we looked at the patterns and found a couple that were viable/workable for us
  1387. # [23:18] <timeless> ... if we could talk them through/find a common ground
  1388. # [23:18] <timeless> ... i'd rather get the engineers involved a little more
  1389. # [23:18] <paulc> John: Could we look at the patterns in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/NoChange and discuss if there is a solution we can agree on.
  1390. # [23:18] <timeless> janina: ...
  1391. # [23:19] <timeless> [ Break ]
  1392. # [23:19] <eliot> thank you
  1393. # [23:19] <Zakim> -eliot
  1394. # [23:19] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  1395. # [23:20] * Parts: f2f (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1396. # [23:20] * Quits: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252) (Quit: richardschwerdtfe)
  1397. # [23:21] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  1398. # [23:21] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1399. # [23:22] * Quits: hiroki (h_yamada@128.30.52.28) (Quit: hiroki)
  1400. # [23:23] * Quits: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1401. # [23:23] * Quits: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
  1402. # [23:24] * Joins: paulc2 (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1403. # [23:25] * Quits: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1404. # [23:25] * Quits: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  1405. # [23:25] * Quits: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1406. # [23:25] * Quits: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  1407. # [23:26] * Quits: acolwell (acolwell@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  1408. # [23:26] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  1409. # [23:27] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.86)
  1410. # [23:29] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  1411. # [23:32] * Quits: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
  1412. # [23:32] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
  1413. # [23:38] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@66.87.2.86)
  1414. # [23:39] <tantek_> rubys, paulc, othermaciej, as requested, I've updated my change proposal for issue 185 - http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/drop_pubdate - to rebut "keep pubdate / add moddate".
  1415. # [23:40] * Quits: eliot (eliot@131.107.0.118) (Quit: REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q))
  1416. # [23:42] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@94.234.170.161)
  1417. # [23:42] * Joins: acolwell (acolwell@205.248.100.252)
  1418. # [23:43] * Joins: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252)
  1419. # [23:43] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252)
  1420. # [23:43] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1421. # [23:48] * Quits: nesta_ (nesta_@77.208.154.61) (Quit: nesta_)
  1422. # [23:49] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30)
  1423. # [23:50] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252)
  1424. # [23:53] * Joins: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  1425. # [23:53] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252)
  1426. # [23:53] * Joins: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252)
  1427. # [23:56] <glenn> Topic: Issue-194
  1428. # [23:56] <glenn> ISSUE-194?
  1429. # [23:56] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-194
  1430. # [23:56] <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
  1431. # [23:56] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
  1432. # [23:56] * timeless was going to scribe
  1433. # [23:56] <glenn> go ahead
  1434. # [23:57] <timeless> JF: hober did a good review of different patterns
  1435. # [23:57] <timeless> s/go ahead//
  1436. # [23:57] <timeless> ... and the accessibility TF looked through it
  1437. # [23:57] <timeless> ... and was thrilled
  1438. # [23:57] <timeless> ... a half dozen or so that would meet our User Requirements
  1439. # [23:57] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  1440. # [23:57] <paulc> Alternatives in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/NoChange
  1441. # [23:57] <timeless> ... the one we're leaning toward
  1442. # [23:57] <hober> research in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-194/Research
  1443. # [23:57] <timeless> ... is the <track> element
  1444. # [23:57] <timeless> ... an untimed file
  1445. # [23:57] * Joins: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252)
  1446. # [23:57] <timeless> ... there were a couple of others
  1447. # [23:57] <timeless> ... using an indirect transcript reference
  1448. # [23:58] <timeless> ... or reuse the for/rel attributes
  1449. # [23:58] <timeless> sam: if you've got your preference, let's start with that one
  1450. # [23:58] <timeless> JF: the preference is to reuse the <track> element
  1451. # [23:58] <timeless> ... it can be used for CC and subtitles
  1452. # [23:58] <timeless> ... and subtitles in multiple languages
  1453. # [23:58] <timeless> ... although to my knowledge we don't have an implementation now
  1454. # [23:58] * hober sorry, wrong link. fixing...
  1455. # [23:58] <timeless> ... that would produce a menu to choose a caption they want
  1456. # [23:58] <timeless> ... so the user would be in control
  1457. # [23:59] <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research
  1458. # [23:59] <timeless> ... adding a transcript in the menu items would be an elegant UI pattern
  1459. # [23:59] <timeless> ... there's been a concern that there's been a concern that it abuses the semantics of track
  1460. # [23:59] <timeless> ... the idea is do we add an attribute to <video> or a child element
  1461. # [23:59] <timeless> ... an attribute on video would be easier to do
  1462. # [23:59] * Joins: frankolivier (cdf86652@64.62.228.82)
  1463. # [23:59] <timeless> ... do we introduce an attribute or do we reuse something
  1464. # Session Close: Fri May 04 00:00:00 2012

The end :)