/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2012-05-04 / end

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# Session Start: Fri May 04 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:00] <timeless> ... i don't want to go into CR with this hole
# [00:00] <timeless> ... at some point there will be regulatory requirements
# [00:00] <timeless> ... with why did you miss this?
# [00:00] <glenn> q+
# [00:00] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [00:00] <timeless> ... when we captured user requirements
# [00:00] <timeless> sam: a viable answer is "HTML5 has a bunch of holes"
# [00:00] <timeless> ... it sounds like you're saying there are several
# [00:00] <timeless> ... i'd like you to narrow it down to one
# [00:01] * hober ericc
# [00:01] <timeless> eric_carlson: <track> right now is used to provide
# [00:01] <timeless> ... time stamped text to the video element
# [00:01] <timeless> ... a transcript isn't time aligned at all
# [00:01] * Joins: mark (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [00:01] <timeless> ... it would change the semantics
# [00:01] <timeless> ... i don't think that method would have advantages over an attribute
# [00:01] <timeless> hober: the fallback story for <track>
# [00:02] <timeless> ... is particularly bad in a UA that doesn't support <video> or <track transcript>
# [00:02] <timeless> ... using a track= to point out an <element. on the page
# [00:02] <timeless> s/<element./<element>/
# [00:02] <timeless> eric_carlson: every shipping browser on the planet
# [00:03] <timeless> hober: we've provided a fallback for every new feature
# [00:03] <timeless> cyns: there are a couple of reasons i like track better
# [00:03] <timeless> ... having an attribute that points to another place on the page
# [00:03] * chaals thinks "a link on a page somewhere. brgrgrgrgrgrgrgr"
# [00:03] <timeless> ... is the discussion we had about longdesc=
# [00:03] <timeless> ... having an attribute like longdesc
# [00:03] <timeless> anne: how is <track> different from longdesc=
# [00:03] <chaals> q+
# [00:03] * Zakim sees glenn, chaals on the speaker queue
# [00:03] <timeless> cyns: no
# [00:04] <timeless> ... you have a track
# [00:04] * Joins: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252)
# [00:04] <timeless> ... all interchangable
# [00:04] <timeless> anne: i don't see the difference
# [00:04] <mjs> q+
# [00:04] * Zakim sees glenn, chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
# [00:04] <timeless> cyns: you're not saying this url goes to this image
# [00:04] <timeless> ... you're saying these things are interchangable
# [00:04] <timeless> ... <source> is a child element
# [00:04] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@70.89.66.218) (Quit: rniwa)
# [00:04] <timeless> anne: there's also a src= attribute
# [00:04] <timeless> cyns: it seems e
# [00:04] <timeless> s/e//
# [00:05] <timeless> anne: <track> is the same as longdesc=
# [00:05] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
# [00:05] <timeless> cyns: child elements are easier to understand
# [00:05] <chaals> q+ to say asking web designers to add a link somewhere and a pointer to it is a horrid design approach - and that track, apart from being an element instead of attribute, is equivalent to longdesc
# [00:05] * Zakim sees glenn, chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
# [00:05] <timeless> q+ Josh_Soref
# [00:05] * Zakim sees glenn, chaals, mjs, Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
# [00:05] <timeless> cyns: this one is special, why?
# [00:05] * Joins: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [00:05] <timeless> BobLund: when you consider
# [00:05] <timeless> ... out of band tracks
# [00:05] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.169)
# [00:05] <timeless> ... there's a similarity between out of band attributes
# [00:05] <timeless> ... and in band tracks
# [00:05] <timeless> ... i don't think in band tracks work very well
# [00:06] <hober> We're looking Option 4A "reuse the <track> element" v. Option 2B "mint an indirect transcript attribute which takes many IDREFs"
# [00:06] <timeless> ... i don't think an author wants the transcript available
# [00:06] * hober fyi
# [00:06] <timeless> ... i don't think <track> works very well for inband tracks
# [00:06] <timeless> BobLund: <track> works fine for inband tracks
# [00:06] <frankolivier> q+
# [00:06] * Zakim sees glenn, chaals, mjs, Josh_Soref, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [00:06] <timeless> ... but transcript= would work better for the inband transcript case
# [00:06] <timeless> ... if i have an mpeg4 file
# [00:06] <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research#2B_-_mint_an_indirect_transcript_attribute_which_takes_many_IDREFs
# [00:07] <timeless> ... it isn't likely i'd have the transcript internal to the resource
# [00:07] <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research#4A_-_reuse_the_track_element
# [00:07] <timeless> cyns: and the <track> element allows for
# [00:07] <timeless> BobLund: not for inband tracks
# [00:07] <timeless> ... you don't have individual urls to the component tracks
# [00:07] <timeless> cyns: can't you have mixed?
# [00:07] <timeless> janina: can't you have inband subtiles
# [00:07] <timeless> s/subtiles/subtitles/
# [00:07] <timeless> ... and out of band
# [00:08] <timeless> mark: that works
# [00:08] <timeless> q?
# [00:08] * Zakim sees glenn, chaals, mjs, Josh_Soref, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [00:08] <timeless> ack glenn
# [00:08] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs, Josh_Soref, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [00:08] <timeless> glenn: timed text
# [00:08] <timeless> ... VTML
# [00:08] <timeless> ... has a role= attribute
# [00:08] <timeless> ... defining arbitrary values
# [00:08] <timeless> ... and one of the values is Transcription
# [00:08] <timeless> ... and you as an author can choose what you're timing
# [00:08] <timeless> ... if you're timing
# [00:08] <yosuke> s/VTML/TTML/
# [00:08] * timeless thanks
# [00:09] <timeless> JF: so you could put your Transcript into TTML
# [00:09] <timeless> ... with no timing
# [00:09] <timeless> janina: even if there's no timing
# [00:09] <timeless> glenn: yes
# [00:09] <timeless> ... you have control over granularity
# [00:09] <timeless> ... about 10 different levels
# [00:09] <timeless> ... mapping to EI608/708
# [00:09] <timeless> ... roles
# [00:09] <timeless> ... you might take a look at that
# [00:09] <timeless> sam: does that require no change to html5?
# [00:09] <timeless> JF: we'd have to put in a proposal to do a
# [00:10] <timeless> eric_carlson: the Spec text assume the contents of the file are associated with timestamps
# [00:10] <timeless> glenn: I think that Text refers to VTT
# [00:10] <timeless> frankolivier: no
# [00:10] <timeless> hober: it does require the format to be timed
# [00:10] <timeless> glenn: but the timing could be the entired time
# [00:10] <timeless> eric_carlson: if you wanted to present the entire text at the initial time
# [00:10] <timeless> sam: so, some spec work to be done
# [00:10] <timeless> ... glenn is willing to parcipate?
# [00:11] <timeless> s/parcipate/participate/
# [00:11] <timeless> glenn: no
# [00:11] <timeless> anne: I don't think it's going to work
# [00:11] <timeless> ... most browsers aren't going to implement TTML
# [00:11] <timeless> glenn: it's a safe harbor format
# [00:11] <timeless> eric_carlson: ... for content delivery providers
# [00:12] <timeless> mjs: i think we're reaching topics where people wouldn't like to speak without attorneys present
# [00:12] <timeless> cyns: we don't have enough brownies for the lawyers
# [00:12] <timeless> eric_carlson: i could see
# [00:12] <chaals> q?
# [00:12] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs, Josh_Soref, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [00:12] * Joins: davidb (davidb@174.91.42.30)
# [00:12] <timeless> ... i'm still not convinced that it makes sense to make sense to change the semantics of <track>
# [00:12] <timeless> ... i think it could work to use an attribute on the media element
# [00:12] <timeless> ... with ID refs
# [00:12] <timeless> hober: that design as many advantages
# [00:12] <timeless> q?
# [00:12] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs, Josh_Soref, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [00:12] <chaals> ack me
# [00:12] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say asking web designers to add a link somewhere and a pointer to it is a horrid design approach - and that track, apart from being an element instead of
# [00:12] <timeless> ack chaals
# [00:12] <Zakim> ... attribute, is equivalent to longdesc
# [00:12] * Zakim sees mjs, Josh_Soref, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [00:12] * Zakim sees mjs, Josh_Soref, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [00:13] <timeless> chaals: it has many technical advantages
# [00:13] <timeless> ... but you have to get the URLs into the page
# [00:13] <timeless> ... the drawback is that you need to get URLs to do that
# [00:13] <timeless> ... it's a horrible design pattern for a document
# [00:13] <timeless> ... pointing to urls is analogous to longdesc=
# [00:13] * Quits: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252) (Client exited)
# [00:13] <timeless> ... there are differences
# [00:13] <timeless> ... but
# [00:13] <timeless> sam: 'it'/'that'?
# [00:14] <timeless> chaals: it= "The IDref pattern"
# [00:14] * Joins: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252)
# [00:14] <timeless> ... the thing about track
# [00:14] <krisk> * ping test
# [00:14] <timeless> ... it may change the semantics
# [00:14] <timeless> s/* ping test//
# [00:14] <timeless> ... a zero timing
# [00:14] <timeless> ... it doesn't seem to be a semantic shift
# [00:15] <timeless> ... getting everything in one pile
# [00:15] <timeless> ... i don't see why that's a problem
# [00:15] <timeless> ... you cross out 'timing' in the spec
# [00:15] <timeless> ... you say "that may be timed"
# [00:15] <timeless> ... most of them will be timed
# [00:15] <timeless> ... someone of them might not
# [00:15] <timeless> ... that argument doesn't seem like a meaningful distinction
# [00:15] <timeless> ... "the spec says it's timed, and that means it must have at least two time points"
# [00:15] <timeless> ... that doesn't seem to be a reasonable requirement
# [00:16] <timeless> ... cyns 's suggestion that it be a <track> seems reasonable
# [00:16] <timeless> ... "except for the one that doesn't have timing"
# [00:16] <timeless> ... seems to not make sense
# [00:16] <timeless> ack mjs
# [00:16] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref, frankolivier on the speaker queue
# [00:16] <timeless> mjs: i can't remember when i added myself to this queue
# [00:16] <timeless> ... timed v. untimed
# [00:16] <timeless> ... is an important distinction for media
# [00:16] <timeless> ... for synchronizing timelines
# [00:17] * chaals reminds people that if you say "q+ to something" then when you get popped from the queue you get reminded you wanted to something.
# [00:17] <timeless> ... the <video> element does have support for pointing to one untimed element
# [00:17] <timeless> ... the poster image
# [00:17] <timeless> ... it's associated with the video element
# [00:17] <timeless> ... but it doesn't need to be synchronized
# [00:17] <timeless> ... second
# [00:17] <timeless> ... a distinction between <track> and IDref
# [00:17] <timeless> ... chaals mentioned one
# [00:17] <chaals> s/synchronized/synchronized and is an attribute/
# [00:17] <timeless> ... IDref forces the designer to include something visible
# [00:17] * Quits: davidb (davidb@174.91.42.30) (Quit: davidb)
# [00:17] <timeless> ... it makes something visible
# [00:17] <cyns> q+
# [00:17] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref, frankolivier, cyns on the speaker queue
# [00:17] <timeless> ... but it isn't necessarily true
# [00:18] <timeless> ... you could have a video
# [00:18] <timeless> ... and then a link to a transcript
# [00:18] <timeless> ... if i don't have half an hour to watch something
# [00:18] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
# [00:18] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref, frankolivier, cyns, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:18] <timeless> ... i'd often like to read through the transcrpit
# [00:18] <timeless> s/transcrpit/transcript/
# [00:18] <timeless> ... it seems to be more successful
# [00:18] <timeless> ... than linking to a visible way
# [00:18] <timeless> [scribe-garbled-mjs]
# [00:18] <timeless> mjs: IDref also accounts for having things visible in the page
# [00:19] <timeless> ... you want to programmatically associate that
# [00:19] <timeless> ... i think people should keep this in mind
# [00:19] <timeless> ... that's more salient than the logical meaning of the <track> element
# [00:19] <timeless> ack me
# [00:19] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref, frankolivier, cyns, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:19] * chaals thinks "occasionally" is a bit of a stretch here - and a URI can point to something in the page anyway
# [00:19] <timeless> ack josh_soref
# [00:19] * Zakim sees frankolivier, cyns, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:20] <timeless> q+ Josh_Soref
# [00:20] * Zakim sees frankolivier, cyns, richardschwerdtfe, Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
# [00:20] <timeless> ack frankolivier
# [00:20] * Zakim sees cyns, richardschwerdtfe, Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
# [00:20] <timeless> frankolivier: 2 questions
# [00:20] <timeless> ... is there a requirement to link multiple transcripts to a video or just one
# [00:20] <plh> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/w3c_video.html example of a page with a video that links to a transcript
# [00:20] <timeless> JF: the requirement isn't that specific
# [00:20] <timeless> ... we could need one or more
# [00:20] <timeless> hober: both proposals support multiple
# [00:20] <timeless> frankolivier: what's the difference between transcripts and a timed text file?
# [00:21] <timeless> JF: traditionally a transcript captures more than just the dialog
# [00:21] <timeless> ... it's sort of an amalgamation of CC and Descriptive Text
# [00:21] <timeless> ... it's almost like a Book
# [00:21] <timeless> ... it's an alt-ernative presentation
# [00:21] <timeless> cyns: think of it as a Script for a Play
# [00:21] <timeless> janina: it might also have timing data
# [00:22] <plh> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/w3c_video_transcript.html transcript that spells out text display in the video
# [00:22] <timeless> ack cyns
# [00:22] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
# [00:22] <timeless> q+ Josh_Soref to say that you want non Accessible requiring users to review transcripts
# [00:22] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
# [00:22] <timeless> cyns: I could live with either attribute or <track>
# [00:22] <timeless> ... getting developers to understand and live with this
# [00:22] <timeless> ... poster= seems like a different thing
# [00:22] <timeless> ... it isn't a description of the whole content of the video
# [00:22] * Quits: frankolivier (cdf86652@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [00:22] <timeless> ... <track> comprise the content of the entire <video>
# [00:23] <timeless> ... and so does <transcript>
# [00:23] <timeless> hober: requiring developers to do any of this at all
# [00:23] <timeless> ... it makes sense to piggyback on what they're doing
# [00:23] <Mark_Vic_> q?
# [00:23] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, Josh_Soref on the speaker queue
# [00:23] <timeless> ... people are adding links in prose
# [00:23] <JF> +Q
# [00:23] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, Josh_Soref, JF on the speaker queue
# [00:23] <timeless> ... IDrefs is pixydust to link up existing videos with existing content
# [00:23] <timeless> ... in terms of encouraging author adoption, "keep doing what you're doing"
# [00:23] <timeless> cyns: in the short term, that will be true
# [00:24] <timeless> ... but in the long term, when they're adding tracks to videos
# [00:24] <timeless> ... why would that be true?
# [00:24] <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfe
# [00:24] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref, JF on the speaker queue
# [00:24] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: why are you forcing developers to force the full transcript on this page?
# [00:24] <Mark_Vic_> If a transcript can having timing info, how is it then different than a caption text track?
# [00:24] <timeless> hober: an IDref could point to an <a> linking off the page
# [00:24] <timeless> [ chaals waves hand ]
# [00:24] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: why make person put another link on the page
# [00:24] <timeless> hober: people already put links in the page
# [00:25] <timeless> ... one of those links will bitrot faster than the other
# [00:25] <timeless> ... visible link v. link in video
# [00:25] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: show a visual indicator
# [00:25] <timeless> ... transcript attribute
# [00:25] <timeless> ... UA vendor shows that
# [00:25] <janina> q+
# [00:25] * Zakim sees Josh_Soref, JF, janina on the speaker queue
# [00:25] <timeless> hober: any method allows that
# [00:25] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: why make the author put the link on the page
# [00:26] <timeless> hober: we're paving cowpaths
# [00:26] <timeless> cyns: we're doing that because we asked them to do that
# [00:26] <timeless> sam: i'd like to flush the queue
# [00:26] * chaals thinks if we were paving that cowpath, the video element would be an idref to a link that pointed to an external video
# [00:26] <timeless> ack Josh_Soref
# [00:26] <Zakim> Josh_Soref, you wanted to say that you want non Accessible requiring users to review transcripts
# [00:26] * Zakim sees JF, janina on the speaker queue
# [00:26] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
# [00:26] * Zakim sees JF, janina, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:27] <cyns> q+
# [00:27] * Zakim sees JF, janina, richardschwerdtfe, cyns on the speaker queue
# [00:27] * chaals thinks josh said "they got the guns but we got the numbers"
# [00:27] <timeless> Josh_Soref: If there's a CC or Transcript available
# [00:27] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@70.89.66.218)
# [00:27] <timeless> ... I, as a non accessibility needing user am likely to try to use it
# [00:27] <timeless> ... and like it
# [00:27] <timeless> ... but if it doesn't work, I will complain
# [00:28] <timeless> ... I and people like me (mjs)
# [00:28] <timeless> ... and we will help clean the cowpaths
# [00:28] <timeless> q?
# [00:28] * Zakim sees JF, janina, richardschwerdtfe, cyns on the speaker queue
# [00:28] <timeless> ack JF
# [00:28] * Zakim sees janina, richardschwerdtfe, cyns on the speaker queue
# [00:28] <timeless> JF: sam you asked about options
# [00:28] <timeless> ... I'm happy to only look at two options
# [00:28] <timeless> ... and to discard the others
# [00:28] <timeless> sam: ok
# [00:28] <timeless> JF: points...
# [00:28] <timeless> ... cyns mentioned the authoring pattern
# [00:29] <timeless> ... there's an assumption of people authoring content using a text editor
# [00:29] <timeless> ... many people create content using WYSIWYG editors
# [00:29] <timeless> ... the Dialog comes up
# [00:29] <timeless> ... for a video
# [00:29] <timeless> ... and you click on files
# [00:29] <timeless> ... the pattern for linking for a <video>
# [00:29] <timeless> ... seems very simple
# [00:29] <timeless> ... if you add an IDref
# [00:29] <timeless> ... that seems more cumbersome
# [00:29] <timeless> ... we've talked about C+P
# [00:29] <timeless> ... everything remains self contained
# [00:29] <timeless> ... if you copy an IDref
# [00:30] <timeless> ... but not that ref'd content
# [00:30] <timeless> ... then you lose that
# [00:30] <timeless> ... when you paste
# [00:30] <timeless> ... nothing precludes an author from adding a transcript as a <track> kind
# [00:30] <timeless> ... and later including an <a href>
# [00:30] <timeless> ... and you don't put the <a href>, we still have the reference
# [00:30] <timeless> q?
# [00:30] * Zakim sees janina, richardschwerdtfe, cyns on the speaker queue
# [00:30] <timeless> ack janina
# [00:30] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, cyns on the speaker queue
# [00:30] <timeless> janina: 2 points around UCs
# [00:30] <timeless> ... mjs 's point of accessibility
# [00:30] <timeless> ... you just want to read the transcript
# [00:31] <timeless> ... we really want to solve this now
# [00:31] <timeless> ... and not HTML.next
# [00:31] <timeless> ... the curb-cut effect
# [00:31] <timeless> ... i'm not hearing when talking about IDref
# [00:31] <timeless> ... sometimes untimed, and sometimes also timed
# [00:31] <mjs> q+
# [00:31] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, cyns, mjs on the speaker queue
# [00:31] <timeless> ... maybe TTML covers that
# [00:31] <timeless> ... i don't know how you cover that
# [00:31] <timeless> JF: TTML is a timestamping format
# [00:32] <timeless> sam: is it IDref or <track>
# [00:32] <timeless> cyns: it's a possible src= for a <track>
# [00:32] <timeless> JF: if the desire to preserve the timing notion of track
# [00:32] <timeless> ... then make the <track> a full length
# [00:32] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: we spent a lot of time looking at this
# [00:33] <timeless> ... we need a visual association with this thing
# [00:33] <timeless> hober: you'd get a visual association
# [00:33] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: you'd have a link somewhere else in the page
# [00:33] <timeless> ... and you assume the person doing this relative to the video
# [00:33] <timeless> ... basically take transcript
# [00:33] <timeless> ... and put the visual indicator next to the video
# [00:33] <timeless> ... what we're doing for Described Video
# [00:33] <timeless> ... this is what we're looking at
# [00:34] <timeless> ... put an icon of your choice
# [00:34] <timeless> q?
# [00:34] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, cyns, mjs on the speaker queue
# [00:34] <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfe
# [00:34] * Zakim sees cyns, mjs on the speaker queue
# [00:34] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: I see no reason for another link to be on the page
# [00:34] * Quits: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [00:34] <timeless> sam: you prefer <track>, ok
# [00:34] <timeless> ack cyns
# [00:34] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [00:34] <timeless> cyns: I agree w/ Josh_Soref, mjs
# [00:34] <timeless> ... about wanting to have access to that
# [00:34] <timeless> ... i don't think it should be something to be responsible for
# [00:35] <timeless> ... i think an IDref and a link is two things for an author to make a mistake
# [00:35] <timeless> ... and I agree with JF about C+P
# [00:35] <timeless> ... more ways to mess up
# [00:35] <timeless> ... same way I don't like the longdesc= replacement proposals
# [00:35] <timeless> q?
# [00:35] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [00:35] <timeless> ack mjs
# [00:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:35] <timeless> mjs: some transcripts may not just be a flat text transcript of the video
# [00:35] <timeless> ... possibly a machine readable timing
# [00:35] <timeless> ... possibly including captions and descriptive text
# [00:35] <timeless> ... it seems those are different things
# [00:36] <timeless> ... sometimes you want a transcript of the video
# [00:36] <JF> +Q
# [00:36] * Zakim sees JF on the speaker queue
# [00:36] <timeless> ... and sometimes you want an HTML file
# [00:36] <timeless> ... other times you want it to be timed with the video
# [00:36] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
# [00:36] * Zakim sees JF, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:36] <timeless> ... in some cases you want it timed
# [00:36] <timeless> ... for timed w. the video v. flat
# [00:36] <timeless> ... it may not be the same UC
# [00:36] <timeless> ... and maybe we're doing a disservice
# [00:36] <richardschwerdtfe> q?
# [00:36] * Zakim sees JF, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:36] <timeless> JF: mjs, i don't disagree with you
# [00:36] <timeless> ack JF
# [00:36] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:37] <timeless> ... and it may be a PDF or a DOC
# [00:37] <timeless> sam: ouch
# [00:37] <timeless> JF: i'd prefer HTML
# [00:37] <timeless> ... putting that aside
# [00:37] <timeless> ... the reason we're saying TTML
# [00:37] <timeless> ... if there's a huge desire not to pollute the purity of <track>
# [00:37] <timeless> ... we can make the guidance
# [00:37] <timeless> ... "make it TTML"
# [00:37] <timeless> ... chaals mentioned that semantic purity isn't a huge advantage
# [00:38] <timeless> ... we've got this stuff that augments, supplements, or replaces for disabled people
# [00:38] <timeless> ... we're just looking for an elegant way of doing that
# [00:38] <timeless> ... <track> is an elegant way of doing that
# [00:38] <timeless> mjs: a TTML file isn't something you could link to in a browser
# [00:38] <timeless> ... all transcripts linked today would not work if they were TTML
# [00:38] <timeless> ... so that seems like a downside
# [00:38] <timeless> chaals: that's also true of VTT
# [00:38] <hober> q+
# [00:38] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, hober on the speaker queue
# [00:39] <timeless> ... and various other formats
# [00:39] <timeless> ... in practice, they damn well read them
# [00:39] <timeless> ... it's not pretty, but it's a transcript, that's readable, and it's a step forward
# [00:39] <timeless> ... occasionally, they put them in the web page
# [00:39] <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfe
# [00:39] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [00:39] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: can <video> controllers handle <track>s with no timings ?
# [00:39] * Joins: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [00:39] <timeless> cyns: you just put full length for it
# [00:39] <timeless> ack hober
# [00:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:40] <timeless> hober: i saw this when i prepared the wiki page
# [00:40] <timeless> ... i encourage people to read it
# [00:40] <timeless> ... i came up with a list
# [00:40] <timeless> ... between these two
# [00:40] <JF> hober's research page: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research#2B_-_mint_an_indirect_transcript_attribute_which_takes_many_IDREFs
# [00:40] <timeless> ... they each fulfill some
# [00:40] <timeless> ... fail to fulfill others
# [00:40] <timeless> ... the attribute with IDrefs did come out on top in terms of requirements
# [00:40] <timeless> ... we could walk through that
# [00:41] <timeless> s|hober's research page: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research#2B_-_mint_an_indirect_transcript_attribute_which_takes_many_IDREFs|-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research#2B_-_mint_an_indirect_transcript_attribute_which_takes_many_IDREFs hober's research page|
# [00:41] <timeless> BobLund: how would transcript work with continuous media?
# [00:41] <timeless> eric_carlson: how would anything work with continuous?
# [00:41] * JF oops, thanks timeless
# [00:41] <timeless> BobLund: with <track> you could produce something
# [00:41] <timeless> janina: we have UCs for both experiences
# [00:42] <timeless> eric_carlson: unless you have timestamps, that won't help you much
# [00:42] * yosuke JFYI: typical transcript is something like this: http://www.westwingtranscripts.com/search.php?flag=getTranscript&id=2
# [00:42] <timeless> BobLund: right, you'd have to have timestamps
# [00:42] <timeless> eric_carlson: in the same way
# [00:42] * Joins: tantek__ (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [00:42] <timeless> ... it's a url to a resource on a server
# [00:42] <timeless> ... it doesn't make a difference where the url is on the server
# [00:42] <timeless> ... it doesn't make any difference
# [00:42] * Quits: tantek_ (tantek@66.87.2.86) (Ping timeout)
# [00:42] <timeless> sam: we started with two change proposals
# [00:43] <timeless> ... one which said defer
# [00:43] <timeless> ... now we have two more concrete proposals
# [00:43] <timeless> ... we can't hold HTML5 forever
# [00:43] <timeless> ... are people committed to writing down the <track> and IDref ones?
# [00:43] <timeless> ... if people are willing to do both, we're going to survey
# [00:43] <timeless> ... if they don't, the one that goes, will be the one that will win
# [00:43] <timeless> JF: I'm happy to propose <track>
# [00:44] <timeless> ... but it's fast and loose with your timeline
# [00:44] <timeless> hober: will you withdraw your existing proposal?
# [00:44] <timeless> JF: i'm likely to
# [00:44] <timeless> sam: we'd ask you to update
# [00:44] <timeless> JF: updating would be a rewrite
# [00:44] <hober> q+
# [00:44] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [00:44] <timeless> paulc: this conversation started with an assertion that we can't finish HTML5 without this feature
# [00:44] <timeless> ... Web+TV IG came to us with a whole bunch of Addon proposals for HTML5
# [00:45] <timeless> ... can this be an addon for html5?
# [00:45] <timeless> ... does it have to be on our critical path?i
# [00:45] <timeless> issue-204?
# [00:45] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-204
# [00:45] <trackbot> ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open
# [00:45] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
# [00:45] <timeless> issue-30?
# [00:45] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-30
# [00:45] <trackbot> ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- open
# [00:45] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
# [00:45] <timeless> s/path?i/path?/
# [00:45] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [00:45] <timeless> ... this could be the long pole for getting out of LC
# [00:45] <timeless> ... i'm not saying is it important
# [00:45] <timeless> ... i'm saying could it be a separate spec
# [00:45] <timeless> sam: our motivation is to exit LC
# [00:46] <timeless> JF: i can't answer that question
# [00:46] <timeless> ... part of the problem
# [00:46] <timeless> ... is that this issue will be muddied by compliance issues
# [00:46] <timeless> ... that are not technical
# [00:46] <timeless> ... to get HTML5 past CR would be blocked
# [00:46] <timeless> paulc: CR is where W3C calls for Implementations
# [00:46] <timeless> ... nothing about quality or completeness
# [00:46] <timeless> ... it's just asking implementers "can you implement"
# [00:47] <timeless> ... "can a third party, not in the working group use the spec to drive implementation"
# [00:47] <hober> q?
# [00:47] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [00:47] <timeless> ... a feature missing doesn't hurt that
# [00:47] <timeless> chaals: when HTML5 goes to PR
# [00:47] <timeless> ... if this feature isn't terribly complicated
# [00:47] <timeless> ... and a number of members are asked to vote for it
# [00:47] <timeless> ... you'll find a number of members of W3C that are fairly upset
# [00:47] <timeless> ... the answer to "can you put it in a separate spec"
# [00:48] <timeless> ... is "sure you can"
# [00:48] <timeless> ... is it an elegant solution?
# [00:48] <timeless> ... no
# [00:48] <timeless> ... it's an ugly solution, it will probably solve the problem
# [00:48] <glenn> q+
# [00:48] * Zakim sees hober, glenn on the speaker queue
# [00:48] <timeless> ... it would be nice to avoid going there
# [00:48] <timeless> sam: it's my opinion that the question isn't whether it's complicated
# [00:48] <timeless> ... it's whether it's controversial
# [00:48] <timeless> ... link to a link isn't about hard to implement
# [00:48] <timeless> ... it's hard to get users to do
# [00:49] <timeless> ... it's a matter of whether it's controversial
# [00:49] <tantek__> q+ to note that microformats have been adopted just fine as additional separate specifications to HTML4/HTML5.
# [00:49] * Zakim sees hober, glenn, tantek__ on the speaker queue
# [00:49] <timeless> ... would you hold up HTML5 for your pet feature
# [00:49] <timeless> ... or do you want to get HTML5 out?
# [00:49] <timeless> ... we're closing out features for HTML5
# [00:49] <timeless> ... but we're close
# [00:49] <timeless> ... I want hard dates
# [00:49] <timeless> JF: you want it by next friday?
# [00:49] <timeless> ... i'll get it to you by next friday
# [00:49] <timeless> ACTION JF to deliver a proposal by next friday
# [00:49] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [00:49] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - JF
# [00:49] <timeless> ACTION sam to get JF to deliver a proposal by next friday
# [00:49] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [00:49] <trackbot> Created ACTION-210 - Get JF to deliver a proposal by next friday [on Sam Ruby - due 2012-05-10].
# [00:50] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
# [00:50] * Zakim sees hober, glenn, tantek__, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:50] <timeless> JF: i'll commit to next friday
# [00:50] <hober> ack hober
# [00:50] * Zakim sees glenn, tantek__, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:50] <timeless> sam: it sounds like given a choice between <track> and IDref would like to write a proposal for IDref?
# [00:50] <timeless> hober: I'm happy to write up IDref
# [00:50] <timeless> ... but i'm not withdrawing proposal to defer
# [00:51] <timeless> ACTION hober to write up a video-transcript IDref proposal by next friday
# [00:51] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [00:51] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - hober
# [00:51] <timeless> ACTION sam to get hober to write up a video-transcript IDref proposal by next friday
# [00:51] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [00:51] <trackbot> Created ACTION-211 - Get hober to write up a video-transcript IDref proposal by next friday [on Sam Ruby - due 2012-05-10].
# [00:51] <timeless> paulc: hober, you're now signed up for 3 items
# [00:51] <timeless> ISSUE-199?
# [00:51] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-199
# [00:51] <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
# [00:51] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
# [00:51] <timeless> paulc: I recognize you have a commitment to CSS-WG
# [00:51] <timeless> ISSUE-201?
# [00:51] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-201
# [00:51] <trackbot> ISSUE-201 -- Provide canvas location and hit testing capability to fallback content -- open
# [00:51] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201
# [00:51] <richardschwerdtfe> q?
# [00:51] * Zakim sees glenn, tantek__, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:52] <timeless> paulc: maybe offline you should work with the chairs
# [00:52] <glenn> q-
# [00:52] * Zakim sees tantek__, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:52] <timeless> sam: is it about extracting this portion from the wiki
# [00:52] <timeless> hober: it's not new work
# [00:52] <timeless> eric_carlson: you might be able to talk me into helping
# [00:52] <MikeSmith> q?
# [00:52] * Zakim sees tantek__, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:52] <timeless> mjs: seems like if the research is done
# [00:52] <timeless> ... someone could copy it
# [00:53] <timeless> sam: a proposal could have people throw darts at
# [00:53] <timeless> ... and that's the discussion i'd rather have
# [00:53] <timeless> q?
# [00:53] * Zakim sees tantek__, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:53] <timeless> ack trackbot
# [00:53] * Zakim sees tantek__, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:53] <timeless> ack tantek__
# [00:53] <Zakim> tantek__, you wanted to note that microformats have been adopted just fine as additional separate specifications to HTML4/HTML5.
# [00:53] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [00:53] * chaals wonders how to get trackbot in a queue...
# [00:53] <timeless> tantek__: experience has shown separate specs can do just fine
# [00:53] <timeless> ... multiple specs, ranging from a single attribute, to multiple attributes
# [00:53] <timeless> ... that have been adopted just fine
# [00:54] <timeless> ... based on the component nature of the web
# [00:54] <timeless> ... and a broader trend in w3c of modularizing
# [00:54] <timeless> ... you need folks who can do it well
# [00:54] <timeless> chaals: i didn't mean to say it wasn't possible
# [00:54] <timeless> tantek__: you said it was ugly
# [00:54] * Joins: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [00:54] <timeless> ... and i'm saying there's data that disputes
# [00:54] <timeless> ... HTML5 is a huge spec
# [00:54] <timeless> ... if something CAN be done, it SHOULD be done
# [00:54] <timeless> ... not even MAY be done
# [00:55] <timeless> sam: ultimately, that's a 4th proposal
# [00:55] <adrianba> +1 to everything tantek just said
# [00:55] <timeless> ... saying "someone else SHOULD do something" isn't going to fly
# [00:55] <timeless> ... it's a viable .next discussion
# [00:55] <timeless> ... unless someone proposes doing that for HTML5
# [00:55] <timeless> tantek__: i didn't propose that
# [00:55] <timeless> ... just to dispute chaals
# [00:55] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: to hober
# [00:55] <timeless> ... i'm concerned about IDref
# [00:56] <timeless> ... could you make it a url?
# [00:56] <timeless> hober: when i did the research
# [00:56] <timeless> ... i considered lots of designs
# [00:56] <ddorwin> q+
# [00:56] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [00:56] <timeless> ... i think URL is worse than IDref in a variety of ways
# [00:56] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: i haven't seen your justification
# [00:56] <timeless> hober: go look at it
# [00:56] <timeless> ... i believe it's 1A on the wiki page
# [00:57] <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research
# [00:59] <timeless> [ hober describes 1A which is projected on the screen ]
# [00:59] <JF> +Q
# [00:59] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, ddorwin, JF on the speaker queue
# [00:59] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [00:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [01:00] <timeless> s/+Q//g
# [01:00] * timeless asks JF to use q+
# [01:00] * timeless while Zakim knows both, RRSAgent isn't as smart
# [01:00] * JF ok
# [01:00] <timeless> janina: Links doesn't know video
# [01:00] <timeless> chaals: there's a time
# [01:01] <timeless> hober: i've only pressed play, pause, scrubbers
# [01:01] <timeless> ... i might not know what all those things mean
# [01:01] <timeless> ... but text that says "transcript"
# [01:01] <tantek__> video element was designed with fallback / existing UAs in mind.
# [01:02] <Zakim> -Clarke
# [01:02] * Quits: Clarke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [01:03] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [01:04] * Quits: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [01:04] * Quits: BobLund (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [01:05] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252)
# [01:07] * Quits: johnsim (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [01:09] * Quits: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [01:16] * Quits: tantek__ (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Quit: tantek__)
# [01:18] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.86) (Quit: tantek)
# [01:20] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [01:20] <janina> q?
# [01:20] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, ddorwin, JF on the speaker queue
# [01:21] <janina> q+
# [01:21] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, ddorwin, JF, janina on the speaker queue
# [01:21] <timeless> JF: hober, you were saying
# [01:21] <timeless> ... controls
# [01:21] <timeless> ... one question i'd ask you
# [01:21] <timeless> ... you'd hit play/pause/stop
# [01:21] <timeless> ... and the rest would be "unlearnable"?
# [01:21] <timeless> ... if you saw a button in a video player that had [CC]
# [01:21] <timeless> ... you'd quickly learn what those did
# [01:21] <timeless> ... one observation we're seeing
# [01:21] <timeless> ... is that people script their own controls
# [01:22] <timeless> ... the fact that we're having programmatic
# [01:22] <timeless> ... controls that they can associate
# [01:22] <timeless> ... works
# [01:22] <timeless> ... it goes to the point that
# [01:22] <timeless> ... moving forward
# [01:22] <timeless> ... if there was a consistent way that controls could expose a button
# [01:22] <timeless> ... or an equivalent features
# [01:22] <timeless> s/features/feature/
# [01:22] <chaals> s/there's a time/the argument about back-compat is not untrue. But paving that cowpath is like implementing video by having an a href link to the video and then importing it because existing browsers didn't support <video> elements. There is a time to work on adding functionality./
# [01:22] <timeless> ... if there was a control panel that had a consistent behavior
# [01:22] <timeless> ... that would make the requirement for a text link
# [01:23] <timeless> ... to be embedded in the document to be less important
# [01:23] <timeless> ... there's this week, next month, 3 years from now
# [01:23] <mjs> q+
# [01:23] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, ddorwin, JF, janina, mjs on the speaker queue
# [01:23] <timeless> ... i appreciate we may not have it all today, next month, or by the end of 2012
# [01:23] <timeless> ... but the train keeps rolling
# [01:23] * Quits: krisk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [01:23] <timeless> ... yes you want to pave cowpaths
# [01:23] <timeless> ... but sometimes you want to steer cows in the right directoin
# [01:23] <JF> ack JF
# [01:23] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, ddorwin, janina, mjs on the speaker queue
# [01:23] <timeless> s/directoin/direction/
# [01:24] <timeless> glenn: it's a lot harder to get things in once you've gone to CR
# [01:24] <timeless> ... you can mark things as AT RISK
# [01:24] <timeless> ... but getting something in later is harder
# [01:24] <timeless> q?
# [01:24] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, ddorwin, janina, mjs on the speaker queue
# [01:24] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.244.75) (Client exited)
# [01:24] <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfe
# [01:24] * Zakim sees ddorwin, janina, mjs on the speaker queue
# [01:24] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: it seems like
# [01:24] <timeless> ... we're sacrificing usability of the page
# [01:24] <timeless> ... just so we can support older browsers
# [01:24] <timeless> ... looking at the justification that hober had
# [01:25] <timeless> ... for not using a url
# [01:25] <timeless> ... it's just for backwards compat
# [01:25] <timeless> ... by the time <video> is done
# [01:25] <timeless> ... probably a year or two out
# [01:25] <timeless> ... why would we do that
# [01:25] <timeless> ... we had the same discussion with <canvas>
# [01:25] <timeless> ... we found they were supporting this on mobile devices
# [01:25] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [01:25] * Zakim sees janina, mjs on the speaker queue
# [01:25] <timeless> ddorwin: David Dorwin
# [01:25] <timeless> ... there was a link, or display alongside the page
# [01:25] <timeless> ... or timed
# [01:26] <timeless> ... maybe it's listed
# [01:26] <timeless> ... what are the desired requirements that a browser would do?
# [01:26] <timeless> ... should the browser be able display this as a window next to the page?
# [01:26] <timeless> ... a point about reference is maybe that links you
# [01:26] <timeless> ... if we want to keep these together
# [01:26] <timeless> ... today you could do this with <track> as timed or not
# [01:26] <timeless> ... but it would require JS
# [01:26] <timeless> ... it should be easy
# [01:26] <timeless> ... and that might affect the design
# [01:27] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: UAs can detect the browser that made the request
# [01:27] <timeless> ... i don't see the need to have this fallback
# [01:27] <timeless> ddorwin: it wasn't a response
# [01:27] <timeless> ... just a general input
# [01:27] <timeless> ... if you wanted to correlate in some way
# [01:27] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: i would much rather have the browser say look
# [01:27] <timeless> ... what's the best usable experience?
# [01:27] <timeless> ... an indication that there's a transcript
# [01:27] <timeless> ... and provide the ability to view it
# [01:28] <timeless> ... a separate window, in the same context, i don't know
# [01:28] <timeless> ... there are so many differences between IE7 and today's browsers
# [01:28] <timeless> ... i don't see the point in going back to support them
# [01:28] <timeless> ... i'd rather get them to move to IE10 or the latest Chrome
# [01:28] <timeless> janina: i was going to suggest on the same lines
# [01:28] <timeless> ... the media elements are some of the most persuasive reasons to get users to update their browsers
# [01:29] <timeless> ... even before we start designing really good interfaces
# [01:29] <timeless> ... thinking about railroad gauge being the way they are -- roman chariots
# [01:29] <timeless> ... and here's why the reason to do it is a good idea
# [01:29] <timeless> ... protecting the past. the past disappears fairly quickly
# [01:29] <timeless> q?
# [01:29] * Zakim sees janina, mjs on the speaker queue
# [01:29] <timeless> ack JF
# [01:29] * Zakim sees janina, mjs on the speaker queue
# [01:29] <timeless> ack janina
# [01:29] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [01:29] <timeless> ack mjs
# [01:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:30] <timeless> mjs: has anyone here heard from a content author unwilling to add a visible transcript link?
# [01:30] <timeless> chaals: i've never asked
# [01:30] <timeless> ... but as anne said
# [01:30] <timeless> ... this is the same stylistic design decision about longdesc=
# [01:30] <timeless> ... boatloads of designers unwilling to do it
# [01:30] <timeless> cyns: i haven't had examples of refusing
# [01:30] <timeless> ... but when i talk about it
# [01:30] <timeless> ... i get pushback
# [01:31] <timeless> ... two hours of complaining
# [01:31] <timeless> mjs: if they had to do a custom video control
# [01:31] <timeless> cyns: i'm not encountering custom
# [01:31] <timeless> JF: we're looking to browsers to add it
# [01:31] <timeless> mjs: majority of <video> on the web is using custom control
# [01:31] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
# [01:31] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [01:31] <timeless> JF: if they have Transcripts, and are using custom control, they'll build it
# [01:31] <timeless> ... the native controls will build it
# [01:32] <timeless> mjs: clicking on a link below a video doesn't seem like a bad UE
# [01:32] <timeless> ... there are people asserting it would be
# [01:32] <timeless> cyns: i'm asserting it's a bad Developer Experience
# [01:32] <timeless> ... talking to developers, they don't like it
# [01:32] <JF> Q+
# [01:32] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, JF on the speaker queue
# [01:32] <timeless> ... i don't want email for the next 10 years
# [01:32] <timeless> sam: put in concrete feedback to your proposal
# [01:32] <timeless> mjs: for videos using custom controls
# [01:33] <timeless> ... folks mentioned they can put in their own button
# [01:33] <timeless> ... but that same use case can be served just as well with an <a href>
# [01:33] <timeless> ... it doesn't lock out
# [01:33] <timeless> ... a link with a text link or a button in controls
# [01:33] <timeless> ... doesn't lock in
# [01:33] <timeless> q?
# [01:33] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, JF on the speaker queue
# [01:33] <timeless> mjs: point 3
# [01:33] <timeless> ... [of 3]
# [01:33] <timeless> ... folks say: who cares about old browsers?
# [01:33] <timeless> ... we should push users to new browsers
# [01:34] <timeless> ... in my experience, web developers are reluctant to use things that require new browsers
# [01:34] <timeless> ... if you give them something that requires that, they'll hold off until adoption
# [01:34] <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfe
# [01:34] * Zakim sees JF on the speaker queue
# [01:34] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: developers are having to deal with more frequent release cycles than they've ever had before
# [01:34] <timeless> ... every 3 or 4 months
# [01:35] <timeless> ... they're more conditioned to things coming out on that schedule
# [01:35] <timeless> ... the transition to new browsers isn't a 2 year anything anymore
# [01:35] <timeless> ... In terms of developers/end users
# [01:35] <mjs> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2&qpcustomd=0
# [01:35] <timeless> ... end users/developers like done by default
# [01:35] <timeless> ... ARIA Live Regions
# [01:35] <timeless> ... oh, it already speaks for me w/ ATs
# [01:35] <plh> on mobile, the release cycle aren't 3/4 months...
# [01:35] <timeless> ... if you want to show a link for Safari
# [01:36] <timeless> ... that's ok, but then you have to decide where to put it on my page
# [01:36] <timeless> ... we had this problem w/ longdesc=
# [01:36] <timeless> ... it's like "skip to main content" links
# [01:36] <timeless> ... it detracts from what they do
# [01:36] <timeless> s/do/want to do/
# [01:36] <timeless> ... maybe providing a way to override it
# [01:36] <JF> ack JF
# [01:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:36] <timeless> ... but getting something from the browser for free is something they aren't going to complain about
# [01:36] <timeless> cyns: especially if they don't have to do something
# [01:36] <timeless> q?
# [01:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:37] <timeless> mjs: I pasted a link to marketshare study
# [01:37] <timeless> s|http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2&qpcustomd=0|-> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2&qpcustomd=0 Market Share study|
# [01:37] <timeless> JF: developers are starting to race to the latest
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# [01:37] <timeless> ... gobbling up new CSS stuff
# [01:37] <timeless> sam: stuff that gracefully degrades
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# [01:37] <timeless> JF: <video> in a page, using a page
# [01:38] <timeless> sam: <track> element in on a browser that supports <video> but not <track transcript>
# [01:38] <timeless> chaals: browser that supports <video> but not <track>, those exist as well
# [01:38] <timeless> JF: same problem, different bucket
# [01:38] <timeless> ... browsers today not supporting Track, not supporting Subtitles, same poor UX
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# [01:38] <timeless> q?
# [01:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:38] <timeless> mjs: Browser adoption, developer adoption
# [01:39] <timeless> ... mobile content is driven differently
# [01:39] <timeless> ... mobile focused developers using latest stuff
# [01:39] <timeless> ... but on desktop site they care about older browsers
# [01:39] <timeless> sam: will there be desktops in 3 years?
# [01:39] <timeless> paulc: what will happen for this issue?
# [01:39] <timeless> sam: JF will have a proposal by a week from friday
# [01:39] <timeless> ... "in 8 days"
# [01:39] <timeless> ... hober will extract from the wiki in the same time frame
# [01:40] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@70.89.66.218) (Ping timeout)
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# [01:40] <timeless> paulc: chairs will try to review those ASAP and see where they stand
# [01:40] <timeless> sam: there will be a survey
# [01:40] <timeless> ... and i can see there'd be a discussion for a couple of weeks
# [01:40] <timeless> JF: i'm thankful to everyone for participating
# [01:40] <plh> zakim, passcode?
# [01:40] <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plh
# [01:40] <timeless> sam: we have plenty of things in the queue
# [01:41] <timeless> ... if we can get 1-3 proposals mashed out
# [01:41] <timeless> ... improved/merged
# [01:41] <timeless> ... getting them in concrete
# [01:41] <timeless> ... i'm happy with that
# [01:41] <timeless> ... and hober isn't withdrawing his third one
# [01:41] <timeless> paulc: i'd like to thank richardschwerdtfe for breaking out the schedule and money
# [01:41] <timeless> ... it applies to everyone in the room
# [01:42] <timeless> ... myself and the accessibility coordinators attempted to get the right people in the room
# [01:42] <timeless> ... so thank you richardschwerdtfe
# [01:42] <timeless> [ Recessed until tomorrow @9am ]
# [01:42] <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
# [01:42] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
# [01:42] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
# [01:42] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa, eliot, F2F, MichaelC
# [01:42] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [01:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html trackbot
# [01:42] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
# [01:42] * Quits: BobLund (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [01:42] <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-actions.rdf :
# [01:42] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ted to outline a timeline for producing an aligned change proposal to address ISSUEE-199. Due in 2 weeks [1]
# [01:42] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-irc#T19-00-50
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# [02:10] <Zakim> -F2F
# [02:10] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)18:13Z has ended
# [02:10] <Zakim> Attendees were Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa, eliot, F2F, MichaelC
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# [02:44] <anne> MikeSmith: you around?
# [02:44] <anne> MikeSmith: I changed my W3C user email address but it has not been reflected in e.g. public-webapps
# [02:44] <anne> MikeSmith: see https://www.w3.org/services/list-audit/query?queryList=public-webapps
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# [02:49] <MikeSmith> anne: checking now
# [02:50] <MikeSmith> anne: I see annevk@annevk.nl listed there
# [02:50] <MikeSmith> as well as annevk@opera
# [02:51] <anne> oh that just changed then, cool
# [02:51] <anne> weird that @opera.com is there twice
# [03:01] <anne> MikeSmith: so Bugzilla does not allow changing your email?
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# [06:01] <babysuperman> Hey gang, I just validated my css/html but still can't get this stuff to look right in IE. Looks fine in chrome -- http://75.87.254.69:8000/TimberedRidge/test/
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# [18:12] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-irc
# [18:12] <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
# [18:12] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference
# [18:12] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
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# [18:12] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
# [18:12] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
# [18:12] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [18:12] <trackbot> Date: 04 May 2012
# [18:13] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [18:14] <paulc2> zakim, what is the code?
# [18:14] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc2
# [18:16] <MikeSmith> Zakim, list
# [18:16] <Zakim> I see Team_(multimodal)16:00Z, Team_(DOCS)11:00AM, W3C_DOCS(Branding)12:00PM, XML_SchemaWG()11:00AM active
# [18:16] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are HTML_WG()12:00PM, Team_(PUBL)12:00PM
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# [18:16] <yosuke> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
# [18:16] <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
# [18:16] <MikeSmith> Zakim, this will be 26631
# [18:16] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, MikeSmith
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# [18:19] <magnus> Present+ Magnus_Olsson
# [18:19] <shan> Present+ Soonbo_Han
# [18:19] <timeless> Zakim, nick timeless is Josh_Soref
# [18:19] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not see a party named 'Josh_Soref'
# [18:19] * timeless sighs
# [18:19] * Joins: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:19] * Joins: joesteele (joesteele@192.150.10.200)
# [18:20] * timeless will do that once MikeSmith figures out the bridge
# [18:20] <JF> Present+ JF
# [18:20] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.4.78) (Quit: tantek)
# [18:20] * timeless paulc2 will call into the bridge
# [18:21] * Joins: johnsim (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:21] * timeless changes topic to '#html-wg the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) - High Tension Management Logistics'
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# [18:21] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
# [18:21] <Zakim> +F2F
# [18:21] <glenn> +Present Glenn_Adams_(glenn)
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# [18:21] <Zakim> +Josh_Soref; got it
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# [18:22] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
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# [18:22] <Zakim> +JF; got it
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# [18:22] <Zakim> +janina; got it
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# [18:22] <Zakim> +bryan; got it
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# [18:22] <Zakim> +sam; got it
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# [18:22] <Zakim> +Arno_; got it
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# [18:23] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
# [18:23] <Arno_> present+ Arnaud_Braud
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# [18:23] <timeless> Zakim, nick Arno_ is Arnaud_Braud
# [18:23] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not see a party named 'Arnaud_Braud'
# [18:23] <timeless> Zakim, Arno_ is Arnaud_Braud
# [18:23] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'Arno_'
# [18:23] <timeless> Zakim, Arno_ has left F2F
# [18:23] <Zakim> -Arno_; got it
# [18:23] * timeless present+ ...
# [18:23] <timeless> Zakim, Arnaud_Braud has entered F2F
# [18:23] <Zakim> +Arnaud_Braud; got it
# [18:23] <timeless> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:23] <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F, +1.858.677.aaaa
# [18:23] <Zakim> F2F has Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, paulc, JF, janina, bryan, sam, glenn, Arnaud_Braud
# [18:23] <Zakim> On IRC I see paulc, rubys, Arno_, BobLund, johnsim, joesteele, ddorwin, adrianba, magnus, janina, yosuke, Zakim, RRSAgent, anne, shan, acolwell, JF, hiroki, glenn, icaaq,
# [18:23] <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, plh, shepazu, mattur, davidb, miketaylr, johndrinkwater, Lachy, logbot, jgraham, paulc2, timeless, odinho, gavin, jmb, Philip, arronei, danielfilho, Dashiva,
# [18:24] <Zakim> ... hiro_away, heycam|away, trackbot, krijnh, decadance, ed, Jedi, lgombos, rektide, paul_irish, hober, [tm], gsnedders, pingo, hsivonen, Hixie, inimino, CIA-1
# [18:24] * rubys present+
# [18:24] <paulc> presentzajkim, Paul_Cotton has entered F2F
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# [18:24] <paulc> zakim, Paul_Cotton has entered F2F
# [18:24] <Zakim> +Paul_Cotton; got it
# [18:24] <timeless> s/presentzajkim, Paul_Cotton has entered F2F//
# [18:24] <timeless> Zakim, paulc has left F2F
# [18:24] <Zakim> -paulc; got it
# [18:24] <timeless> Zakim, nick paulc is Paul_Cotton
# [18:24] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not see a party named 'Paul_Cotton'
# [18:25] * timeless sighs
# [18:25] * timeless please use "Zakim, [your-name] has joined F2F"
# [18:25] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
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# [18:25] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'Adrian_Bateman'
# [18:25] <ddorwin> Present+ David_Dorwin
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# [18:25] <Zakim> +Adrian_Bateman; got it
# [18:26] * odinho wonders we can't use the present+`
# [18:26] * timeless odinho you can use present+
# [18:26] * timeless has entered does cool things
# [18:26] * Joins: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:26] * timeless like auto closing when we drop off
# [18:26] <Russell_Berkoff> Present+ Russell_Berkoff(Samsung)
# [18:26] * odinho did already. But I'm not on the who is here thingy.
# [18:26] <timeless> Zakim, Russell_Berkoff has entered F2F
# [18:26] <Zakim> +Russell_Berkoff; got it
# [18:27] * timeless peter petrkara ?
# [18:27] * timeless peter petarka ?
# [18:27] * timeless peter peterka ?
# [18:27] <timeless> Zakim, aaaa is Peter_Peterka
# [18:27] <Zakim> +Peter_Peterka; got it
# [18:28] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [18:28] <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F, Peter_Peterka
# [18:28] <Zakim> F2F has Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, JF, janina, bryan, sam, glenn, Arnaud_Braud, Paul_Cotton, Adrian_Bateman, Russell_Berkoff
# [18:28] <timeless> Zakim, Odin_Horthe_Omdal has entered F2F
# [18:28] <Zakim> +Odin_Horthe_Omdal; got it
# [18:28] * timeless the other benefit is that there's no real way to see the list of present+ on irc, you have to read the minutes
# [18:28] <timeless> Topic: Introduction
# [18:29] <timeless> paulc: This is the agenda for today
# [18:29] <timeless> ... we lost the whiteboard
# [18:29] <timeless> ... we said we'd do the two media topics
# [18:29] <timeless> ... and a CfC
# [18:29] <timeless> ... after coffee, we'd do charter for V.next
# [18:29] <timeless> ... after lunch is open issues (ISSUE-204) and test suite
# [18:29] <timeless> ... chairs did a discussion last night
# [18:29] <timeless> ... and noted that while we don't have all the proponents of 204
# [18:30] <timeless> ... whether it'd be worth discussing it
# [18:30] <timeless> ... we have one proposal from cynthia
# [18:30] <timeless> ... and one from sicking and "Matthew"
# [18:30] <timeless> ... do we expect cynthia to be here today?
# [18:30] <timeless> janina: we expect her today
# [18:30] <timeless> paulc: we'd need someone to speak to sicking's side of the issue
# [18:30] <timeless> ... i don't know if hober could look at sicking's proposal
# [18:31] <timeless> ... at lunch
# [18:31] <timeless> ... and be an animateur of sicking
# [18:31] <timeless> ... after our successful use of F2F discussion yesterday
# [18:31] <odinho> ISSUE-204?
# [18:31] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-204
# [18:31] <trackbot> ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open
# [18:31] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
# [18:31] <timeless> ... the chairs realized maybe we should tackle ISSUE-204 while we're here
# [18:31] <timeless> ... we're open to discussion of other issues if people want to give us an ISSUE- number
# [18:31] <timeless> ... we can also look at a page sam has that gives us a table
# [18:31] <timeless> ... it might be useful for the WG to actually review that
# [18:32] <timeless> ... these are topics we failed to cover yesterday
# [18:32] <timeless> ... we discussed stabalization and had a bullet item for a CG
# [18:32] <timeless> ... the other was a decision to defer ISSUE-184
# [18:32] <timeless> ... we can do it under "Open Issues"
# [18:32] <timeless> ... my notes indicate we, the chairs, could defer it
# [18:32] <timeless> ... got everything, scribe?
# [18:32] <timeless> [ scribe nods ]
# [18:33] <odinho> ISSUE-184?
# [18:33] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-184
# [18:33] <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
# [18:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
# [18:33] <timeless> Topic: Media Proposals
# [18:33] <timeless> paulc: which proposal do we want to do first?
# [18:33] <timeless> ... Encrypted
# [18:33] <timeless> ... there was a suggestion to do Media Source first
# [18:33] <timeless> ... do we have someone to walk us through
# [18:33] * Joins: Petr (4a3eb302@109.169.29.95)
# [18:33] * timeless aaron calwell?
# [18:33] <acolwell> colwell
# [18:33] <timeless> paulc: plh, welcome
# [18:34] <timeless> Zakim, plh has entered F2F
# [18:34] <Zakim> +plh; got it
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# [18:34] <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell; got it
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# [18:34] <Zakim> +frankolivier; got it
# [18:34] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [18:34] <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F, Peter_Peterka
# [18:34] <Zakim> F2F has Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, JF, janina, bryan, sam, glenn, Arnaud_Braud, Paul_Cotton, Adrian_Bateman, Russell_Berkoff, Odin_Horthe_Omdal, plh, Aaron_Colwell, frankolivier
# [18:34] * Joins: tpod (tpod@66.87.4.78)
# [18:34] <timeless> Zakim, anne has entered F2F
# [18:34] <Zakim> +anne; got it
# [18:35] * Joins: bryan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:35] <timeless> aaron_colwell: should I project?
# [18:35] <timeless> paulc: yes
# [18:35] <timeless> [ Technical break ]
# [18:35] <acolwell> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html
# [18:35] <timeless> Zakim, hober has entered F2F
# [18:35] <Zakim> +hober; got it
# [18:35] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
# [18:35] <Petr> are any presentations available online?
# [18:35] <timeless> s/aaron_colwell:/acolwell:/
# [18:36] <timeless> acolwell: its main purpose is to allow JS to create a presentation
# [18:36] * Joins: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252)
# [18:36] * timeless Petr : the url is right after [ Technical Break ]
# [18:36] <timeless> s|http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html Media Source specification|
# [18:36] <timeless> acolwell: the spec is split into parts
# [18:36] <plh> Petr, the document itself is being displayed in the room
# [18:36] <timeless> ... the html media element
# [18:36] <timeless> ... append data to the tag
# [18:37] <timeless> ... examples of supporting different formats
# [18:37] <timeless> ... we have a byte-stream format for WebM and ISO based media format
# [18:37] <timeless> ... and there's a way to add streams of your choice, like ogg
# [18:37] <timeless> ... this picture describes how to think about it
# [18:37] <timeless> ... the media element is a model of
# [18:37] <timeless> [ acolwell points to part of the picture ]
# [18:38] * timeless http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#introduction
# [18:38] <timeless> acolwell: it introduces the concept of the elemnt
# [18:38] <timeless> s/elemnt/element/
# [18:38] <timeless> ... and a source buffer
# [18:38] <timeless> ... and the Media Engine will pull stuff out of the source buffer
# [18:38] <timeless> ... and this is associated with splicing behavior
# [18:38] <timeless> ... especially for elements close to the current playback time
# [18:38] <Zakim> -Peter_Peterka
# [18:38] <timeless> ... questions?
# [18:38] <timeless> [ None ]
# [18:38] <timeless> acolwell: this is the theoretical model
# [18:39] <timeless> ... to agree on what the media engine looks like
# [18:39] * timeless http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#source-buffer-overlapping-segments
# [18:39] <timeless> ... this covers Splicing
# [18:39] <timeless> ... Media Segments
# [18:39] <timeless> ... to start you give it a media segment
# [18:39] * Joins: Wonsuk (wonsuk73@205.248.100.252)
# [18:39] <timeless> s/a media/an initialization/
# [18:39] <timeless> ... and then you do appending
# [18:39] <timeless> Zakim, Wonsuk has entered F2F
# [18:39] <Zakim> +Wonsuk; got it
# [18:39] <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
# [18:40] <timeless> ... multiple implementations can append over an area
# [18:40] <timeless> ... how does the media engine decide to take that in
# [18:40] * timeless http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#mediasource
# [18:40] <timeless> ... here is how the api looks
# [18:40] <timeless> ... you can use a single source id and use multiplexed
# [18:41] <timeless> ... and then switch on things
# [18:41] * timeless is going to drop words
# [18:41] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [18:41] <timeless> ... Activating the "media source mode" on the html media element
# [18:41] <timeless> ... currently you assign the mode to the media source elemnt
# [18:41] <timeless> s/elemnt/element/
# [18:41] <timeless> ... and that's what causes it to be active
# [18:41] <timeless> ... there's an open issue on that
# [18:41] <timeless> ... for instance integrating with the <source> tag
# [18:42] <timeless> ... currently the only way to activate this mode is with JS
# [18:42] <timeless> ... there's add/remove-id
# [18:42] <timeless> ... to create/destroy media buffers
# [18:42] <timeless> ... so you can create a new source buffer during the presentation
# [18:42] <timeless> ... the sourceBuffered property allows you to see what the browser is holding
# [18:42] <timeless> ... so a js app can understand what the browser has
# [18:43] <timeless> ... so it can decide what to append next
# [18:43] <timeless> ... currently there's sourceAppend() which takes a Uint8Array (of bytes)
# [18:43] <timeless> ... this is how you get media data in
# [18:43] <timeless> ... sourceAbort() is a way to
# [18:43] <timeless> ... we have Segments, initialization segments, media segments
# [18:43] <timeless> ... if someone requests a seek
# [18:43] <timeless> ... you may want to abort
# [18:44] <timeless> ... and start appending a segment for the new seek point
# [18:44] <timeless> ... sourceEndOfStream() to signal you're done with the presentation
# [18:44] <timeless> ... and provides a way for JS app to signal other types of errors
# [18:44] <timeless> ... Network Errors, Decode Errors, ...
# [18:44] <timeless> joesteele: is the network error
# [18:44] <timeless> ... only an I'm out of data error
# [18:44] <glenn> q+
# [18:45] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [18:45] <timeless> acolwell: the intent is to single the same errors as you would normally
# [18:45] * Joins: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94)
# [18:45] <timeless> ... so an XHR error could trigger end of stream
# [18:45] <timeless> s/single/signal/
# [18:46] <timeless> ... a common one is to signal network errors/...
# [18:46] <timeless> ... this is a way to route an error code from the JS app running the API
# [18:46] <timeless> ... to the player's hooks for error handling
# [18:46] <timeless> ... sourceState keeps track of state
# [18:46] <timeless> ... SOURCE_CLOSED/...
# [18:46] <timeless> ... when you activate it, it changes to SOURCE_OPEN
# [18:46] <timeless> .. and sourceEndOfStream() switches to SOURCE_ENDED
# [18:47] <timeless> s/.. and/... and/
# [18:47] <timeless> ... and then a seek could switch back to SOURCE_OPEN
# [18:47] <plh> the WebIDL in the spec needs a refresh btw. doesn't match latest WebIDL spec
# [18:47] <timeless> glenn: i noticed you added this to HTMLMediaElement
# [18:47] <timeless> acolwell: implementationwise
# [18:47] <anne> plh: looks like WebKit IDL
# [18:47] <timeless> ... it made side,
# [18:47] <timeless> ... things are closely tied to the <media> element
# [18:47] <timeless> glenn: could you add it to MediaController?
# [18:48] <timeless> acolwell: it'd be kind of confusing, since that's tied to multiple tags
# [18:48] <timeless> ... what would that mean?
# [18:48] <timeless> ... i could understand it if you had it on multiple tags
# [18:48] <timeless> ... think of this as "having a url"
# [18:48] <timeless> ... and JS is the source
# [18:48] <timeless> glenn: for things ...
# [18:48] <timeless> acolwell: there's an open question about making this a separate object
# [18:49] <timeless> ... relating to sourceURL
# [18:49] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@74.220.71.14)
# [18:49] <timeless> ... say you attach it to the <media> element
# [18:49] <timeless> ... as with WebRTC
# [18:49] <timeless> ... for this interface
# [18:49] <timeless> ... with a special media-source-url
# [18:49] <timeless> ... i could have on-source-open
# [18:49] <timeless> ... on-source-closed
# [18:49] <timeless> ... on-source-buffered
# [18:49] <timeless> ... i wouldn't need extra stuff to hook this up
# [18:49] <timeless> ... but that's an open item
# [18:50] <timeless> glenn: is a declarative interface wanted?
# [18:50] <timeless> acolwell: i need to define that as an open issue
# [18:50] <timeless> ... you could define this and then non-adaptive as fallback
# [18:50] <timeless> glenn: events...
# [18:50] <timeless> ... i didn't see functions
# [18:50] <adrianba> Events -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#event-summary
# [18:50] <timeless> acolwell: they aren't declared here
# [18:50] <timeless> s|Events -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#event-summary|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#event-summary Events|
# [18:50] * timeless thanks adrianba for the drop point
# [18:51] * timeless can't add on links -- downside of being scribe, the scripts object
# [18:51] <timeless> acolwell: when I was working on this for Chrome
# [18:51] <timeless> ... yeah i need to add this
# [18:51] <timeless> paulc: do the authors of this proposal have a place tracking open issues?
# [18:51] <timeless> adrianba: not yet
# [18:51] <timeless> ... we talked to MikeSmith about that this morning
# [18:51] <timeless> paulc: having a bugzilla component would be the easiest way
# [18:52] <timeless> adrianba: we have for the other proposal a bugzilla component
# [18:52] <timeless> ... and bugs filed
# [18:52] <timeless> ... today, we have issues highlighted in the document
# [18:52] <timeless> paulc: is your general plan to get a bugzilla component
# [18:52] <timeless> ... and transfer them
# [18:52] * Joins: mark (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:52] <timeless> ... and is what glenn identified a new item?
# [18:52] <timeless> acolwell: yes
# [18:52] <timeless> ... i'll look at the transcript
# [18:52] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
# [18:52] <MikeSmith> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions Media Source Extensions bugzilla component
# [18:53] <timeless> Josh_Soref: the transcript is incomplete
# [18:53] <timeless> ... glenn will need to help out
# [18:53] <timeless> paulc: there's a goal of creating components
# [18:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:53] <timeless> ... and moving things in ASAP
# [18:53] <timeless> ... and the item glenn raised on callbacks would be moved there
# [18:53] <timeless> acolwell: any other questions?
# [18:53] <timeless> [ None ]
# [18:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:53] * timeless -> url Description
# [18:54] <adrianba> Byte Stream Formats -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#byte-stream-formats
# [18:54] <timeless> acolwell: Byte Stream formats
# [18:54] <timeless> s|Byte Stream Formats -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#byte-stream-formats|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#byte-stream-formats Byte Stream Formats|
# [18:54] <timeless> ... so you can take your format (ISO, WebM, ...) to the bytestream
# [18:54] <timeless> ... and to make it concrete
# [18:54] <timeless> ... we've described how WebM maps to the bytestream
# [18:55] <timeless> ... what elements that could appear in the stream that you can ignore
# [18:55] <timeless> ... certain elements needed in WebM aren't needed in <media>source
# [18:55] <timeless> ... we've done the same thing for ISO
# [18:55] <timeless> ... the intent is to describe stuff enough to implement DASH using MPEG fragment files
# [18:55] <timeless> ... in both cases, the spec isn't saying you should support them
# [18:56] <timeless> ... it's saying "if you do it", "you should do it this way" for interop
# [18:56] <timeless> adrianba: we tried to make the introduction descriptive enough
# [18:56] <timeless> ... so you could walk up with a new media format
# [18:56] <timeless> ... and just make it work
# [18:56] <timeless> ... but at the same time, we wanted to avoid
# [18:56] <timeless> ... for common formats
# [18:56] <timeless> ... that you don't have multiple slightly different versions
# [18:56] <timeless> ... because people just took the description and applied it slightly differently in each impl
# [18:57] <timeless> ... that's why we mixed them together
# [18:57] <timeless> ... the specific examples are (non-)normative / not-required
# [18:57] <timeless> acolwell: the bytestream sort of touches with Encrypted stuff
# [18:57] * Joins: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [18:57] <timeless> ... we need definitions for initialization and intermediate sections
# [18:57] <timeless> ... while they don't depend on eachother
# [18:58] <timeless> ... they need to cover the Encryption use cases
# [18:58] <timeless> ... there's a need for them to interoperate
# [18:58] <timeless> s/each impl/each implementation/
# [18:58] * timeless adrianba : -> url Open Issues
# [18:58] <glenn> q?
# [18:58] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [18:58] <glenn> ack
# [18:58] <adrianba> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#open-issues Open issues
# [18:58] <glenn> q?
# [18:58] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [18:58] <glenn> ack glenn
# [18:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:58] <timeless> acolwell: there's a buffer, and there's no limit on how much you can append into the browser
# [18:59] <timeless> s|http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#open-issues Open issues|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#open-issues Open issues|
# [18:59] <timeless> acolwell: there's discussion about having a callback for when you can append more data
# [18:59] <timeless> ... that's because we hadn't decided how to make certain things asynchronous
# [18:59] <timeless> ... another issue is Splicing behavior
# [18:59] <timeless> ... there might be a limit on Buffer count
# [19:00] <timeless> ... or adding buffers midplayback
# [19:00] <timeless> ... there's a mechanism needed to detect constraints on an implementation
# [19:00] <timeless> ... looking at splicing details
# [19:00] <timeless> ... there may be cases where an implementation can't do the splice immediately
# [19:00] <timeless> ... it might need to wait for a keyframe
# [19:00] <timeless> ... and js may need to do something based on the capabilities of the browser
# [19:00] <timeless> ... maybe we'd use mime type parameters
# [19:01] <timeless> ... we might reuse canPlay()
# [19:01] <timeless> ... another is changing sourceAppend to accept urls with byte-range parameters
# [19:01] <timeless> ... some reasons for this
# [19:01] <timeless> ... to avoid pulling bytes from XHR and then push back in
# [19:01] <timeless> ... saving the browser from copying out into a js context and then back down
# [19:01] <timeless> ... to make things more asynchronous
# [19:02] <timeless> ... and to add progress events
# [19:02] <timeless> ... so you could make switching decisions
# [19:02] <timeless> ... it would be useful in an adaptive streaming scenario
# [19:02] <timeless> ... that's an important area to me
# [19:02] <timeless> ... it would allow us to reduce the JS code that we have
# [19:02] <timeless> ... timestamp offset
# [19:02] <timeless> ... i have a bunch of files and need to insert them at a point in the timeline
# [19:02] <timeless> ... the files have internal timestamps of 0
# [19:03] <timeless> ... but i want to map them to another timeline point (2 minutes)
# [19:03] <timeless> ... so you could dynamically append these things in with adjusted timelines
# [19:03] <timeless> ... we think this is useful for ondemand
# [19:03] <timeless> ... and also in live
# [19:03] <timeless> ... timed text
# [19:03] <timeless> ... the spec only discusses audio/video
# [19:03] <timeless> ... but we want to enable timed text as well
# [19:03] <timeless> ... i don't think it'll be too difficult, but we need to look at it
# [19:04] <timeless> ... WebAudio
# [19:04] <timeless> ... WebRTC's MediaStreams
# [19:04] <timeless> ... we need to have discussions about how these proposals work together
# [19:04] <timeless> ... it would be nice to be able to take stuff from <media>stream and do post processing using WebAudio
# [19:04] <timeless> ... or start with <media>source and map that to WebRTC
# [19:04] <timeless> ... we need to see if things are similar enough to make them work
# [19:05] <timeless> ... Tracks
# [19:05] <timeless> ... how to identify them
# [19:05] <timeless> ... using <media>source with a track
# [19:05] <timeless> ... when data appears, you need to know which source buffer to append it
# [19:05] <timeless> ... there are track properties
# [19:05] <timeless> ... Dash manifests specify "kind of language" and "kind of track"
# [19:05] <timeless> ... and we need a way to bubble that up
# [19:06] <timeless> ... they won't be part of the initial append
# [19:06] <timeless> ... that's it
# [19:06] <timeless> glenn: timed text tracks, are you considering it?
# [19:06] <timeless> acolwell: yes, BobLund brought it up
# [19:06] <timeless> glenn: Timing
# [19:06] <timeless> ... is this a HTML.next feature?
# [19:06] <timeless> acolwell: yes
# [19:06] <timeless> ... definitely HTML.next
# [19:06] <timeless> acolwell: I have a demo
# [19:07] <timeless> [ Local Demo ]
# [19:07] <timeless> acolwell: this is an older api
# [19:07] <timeless> ... what you're seeing here are different bitrates in a dash manifest
# [19:07] <timeless> ... JS is downloading chunks via XHR and appending them
# [19:07] <timeless> ... i
# [19:07] <timeless> s/... i/... i'll simulate congestion/
# [19:08] <timeless> ... now it'll switch
# [19:08] <timeless> ... this isn't just a thought experiment
# [19:08] <timeless> ... we actually have this working
# [19:08] <timeless> ... Chrome is planning on getting the proposed version implemented by the end of the Quarter
# [19:08] <odinho> +q
# [19:08] * Zakim sees odinho on the speaker queue
# [19:08] <timeless> ... it should be in Chrome 21 behind a flag
# [19:08] <timeless> s/+q/q+
# [19:08] * odinho timeless sry
# [19:08] <timeless> ... what we're really interested in is AppendURL
# [19:09] * timeless future :)
# [19:09] <acolwell> http://git.chromium.org/gitweb/?p=webm/webm-dash-javascript.git
# [19:09] <timeless> s|http://git.chromium.org/gitweb/?p=webm/webm-dash-javascript.git|-> http://git.chromium.org/gitweb/?p=webm/webm-dash-javascript.git acolwell's Demo|
# [19:09] <timeless> ... we actually had to interleave the audio and video chunks
# [19:09] <timeless> ... in JavaScript
# [19:10] <timeless> ... which is why source id was created
# [19:10] <timeless> ... so you wouldn't have to do crazy media stream parsing in JS
# [19:10] * Quits: janina (janina@205.248.100.252) (Client exited)
# [19:10] <acolwell> content creation guide: https://sites.google.com/a/webmproject.org/wiki/adaptive-streaming/instructions-to-playback-a-webm-dash-presentation
# [19:10] <timeless> s|content creation guide: https://sites.google.com/a/webmproject.org/wiki/adaptive-streaming/instructions-to-playback-a-webm-dash-presentation|-> https://sites.google.com/a/webmproject.org/wiki/adaptive-streaming/instructions-to-playback-a-webm-dash-presentation Content creation guide|
# [19:10] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [19:11] <timeless> acolwell: our goal is to make as much of this as possible Open Source
# [19:11] <timeless> ... the benefit is that people can adapt this and modify this
# [19:11] <timeless> ... to their own CDN ...
# [19:11] <timeless> odinho: I would have filed a bug if there was a bugzilla component
# [19:11] <timeless> ... the API is using Numeric constants
# [19:11] <timeless> ... and that's an anti pattern lately
# [19:12] <timeless> ... WebWorkers don't use constants
# [19:12] <timeless> ... IndexedDB changed to string constants
# [19:12] <timeless> acolwell: are there plans to do that with ready state?
# [19:12] <timeless> ... we did it to match enums in media element
# [19:12] <timeless> odinho: it's hard to change when it's already there
# [19:13] <timeless> Josh_Soref: some readyState properties were moving to strings
# [19:13] <timeless> acolwell: i'm fine with it
# [19:13] <timeless> paulc: is there a spec that you can point to
# [19:13] * Quits: tpod (tpod@66.87.4.78) (Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi)
# [19:13] <timeless> ... that says "these specs are inconsistent, but you should use this pattern"
# [19:13] <timeless> hober: at this point, it's mostly folklore
# [19:14] <timeless> anne: i'm not sure we quite decided
# [19:14] <timeless> ... for consistency
# [19:14] <timeless> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2012Jan/0038.html
# [19:14] <timeless> Josh_Soref: WebRTC was looking to move to that
# [19:14] <timeless> acolwell: documenting this intent so people creating new apis would know this
# [19:15] <timeless> ... it would be helpful
# [19:15] <timeless> mark_vickers: we are using a lot of adaptive streaming
# [19:15] <timeless> ... there's this dash spec
# [19:15] <timeless> ... which is good because everyone is moving to it
# [19:15] <timeless> ... but it's early days
# [19:15] <timeless> ... but this is better
# [19:16] <timeless> ... since it makes dash soft
# [19:16] <timeless> ... you can adapt something else
# [19:16] <timeless> ... i think this is the right kind of approach
# [19:16] <timeless> acolwell: the feedback we got
# [19:16] <timeless> ... each deployment was different
# [19:16] <timeless> ... "we have multiple CDNs with different cost
# [19:16] <timeless> ... ... and if we're getting bad perf, we want to switch"
# [19:17] <timeless> paulc: tbl said that he wished vendors would bring things less baked
# [19:17] <timeless> ... on a scale of 0 to 1.0
# [19:17] <timeless> ... is this spec 0.5, 0.6, 0.9?
# [19:17] <timeless> ... you've talked about internal issues
# [19:17] <timeless> ... does this handle the scope you wanted?
# [19:17] <timeless> acolwell: even as we're implementing the source buffer model
# [19:17] <timeless> ... we're running into things about splicing
# [19:17] <timeless> ... there will be issues
# [19:17] <timeless> ... and a number of things will be big
# [19:18] <timeless> adrianba: rather than assuming a single dimensional scale
# [19:18] <timeless> ... i'd say, the proposal as it stands today
# [19:18] <timeless> ... is a good encapsulation of the scope
# [19:18] <timeless> ... with the current proposed api+buffer model + open issues
# [19:18] <timeless> ... represents a good scope of functionality
# [19:18] <timeless> ... thinking back to earlier in the week in WebApps
# [19:18] <timeless> ... a good idea for FPWD
# [19:18] <timeless> ... is to be clear on Scope
# [19:18] <timeless> ... for IP exclusions
# [19:19] <timeless> ... "is this the set of IP i'm going to care about?"
# [19:19] <timeless> ... or "are you going to add/remove things?"
# [19:19] <timeless> ... i wouldn't expect we're going to all of a sudden add a new chapter
# [19:19] <timeless> paulc: you're setting the scope that it's extensible by using JS
# [19:19] <timeless> adrianba: the Use of it is extensible
# [19:19] <timeless> paulc: ... rather than being locked into a format
# [19:20] <timeless> mark: this is sufficient to base a commercial service
# [19:20] <timeless> ... it's very well scoped
# [19:20] <timeless> ... the service could be improved
# [19:20] <timeless> ... you could get better with bandwidth estimation
# [19:21] <timeless> s/you're/as mark_vickers said, you're/
# [19:21] <ddorwin> Encrypted Media Extensions - http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html
# [19:21] <odinho> ack me
# [19:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:22] <timeless> i/aaron_colwell: should I project/Topic: Media Source Extensions/
# [19:22] * Joins: mjs (mjs@24.6.209.189)
# [19:22] <timeless> Topic: Encrypted Media Extensions
# [19:22] <timeless> s/Topic: Encrypted Media Extensions//
# [19:22] <timeless> i/Encrypted Media Extensions -/Topic: Encrypted Media Extensions/
# [19:22] <timeless> s|Encrypted Media Extensions - http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html Encrypted Media Extensions|
# [19:23] <timeless> ddorwin: David Dowin, Google
# [19:23] <timeless> s/Dowin/Dorwin/
# [19:23] <timeless> ... The goal is to let us have commercial content, that's protected, in the HTML5 video tags
# [19:23] <timeless> ... today most of this is a proprietary stack
# [19:23] <timeless> ... where the entire player is involved
# [19:23] <timeless> ... we'd like to have the entire player with html5
# [19:23] <timeless> ... we're looking for the minimal changes
# [19:24] <timeless> ... to accomplish a wide range of UCs
# [19:24] <timeless> ... on how baked is this
# [19:24] <timeless> ... we spent a lot of time going through the UCs
# [19:24] <timeless> ... there are still Open Questions
# [19:24] <timeless> ... and we filed those
# [19:24] <timeless> ... and there are other things we'd like to consider
# [19:24] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [19:24] <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F
# [19:24] <Zakim> F2F has Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, JF, janina, bryan, sam, glenn, Arnaud_Braud, Paul_Cotton, Adrian_Bateman, Russell_Berkoff, Odin_Horthe_Omdal, plh, Aaron_Colwell, frankolivier, anne,
# [19:24] <Zakim> ... hober, Wonsuk
# [19:25] <timeless> ddorwin: start with the overview picture
# [19:25] <timeless> ... download the media
# [19:25] <timeless> ... playback stack
# [19:25] <timeless> ... oh, the application is in control
# [19:25] <adrianba> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#introduction Overview
# [19:25] <timeless> ... we make no assumptions about the CDM having network access
# [19:25] <timeless> ... when encrypted media is seen, it will fire a needkey event
# [19:25] <timeless> ... and it can use canPlayType() to see what's supported
# [19:25] <timeless> ... application picks one
# [19:26] <timeless> ... calls generateKeyRequest() to the CDM
# [19:26] <timeless> ... we defined a term "CDM", - Content Decryption Model
# [19:26] <timeless> ... to separate what's in the W3C spec
# [19:26] <timeless> ... for the Media element
# [19:26] <timeless> ... to something that's possibly platform/hardware specific
# [19:26] <timeless> ... that's behind the scenes
# [19:26] <timeless> ... essentially a request is forwarded to CDM
# [19:26] <timeless> ... send a request to License Server
# [19:26] <timeless> ... and send a key back down
# [19:27] <timeless> ... application uses addKey()
# [19:27] <timeless> ... you can have multiple keys
# [19:27] <timeless> ... the media stack when it detects an encrypted frame
# [19:27] <timeless> ... can ask CDM to decrypt
# [19:27] <timeless> ... that's just one option
# [19:27] <timeless> ... you could support a Secure Media Pipeline
# [19:27] <timeless> adrianba: the way i think about this
# [19:27] <timeless> ... this diagram already represents the conceptual model
# [19:28] <timeless> ... for how to think about which parts are done by Media Stack and which by CDM
# [19:28] <timeless> ... we've had feedback about this on the list
# [19:28] <timeless> ... we're not saying this api requires exposing the decoded frame to another component
# [19:28] <timeless> ... the implementation of how the frame gets to the frame is an implementation detail
# [19:28] <timeless> chaals: in a real system
# [19:28] <timeless> ... instead of frames going back to the media stack
# [19:28] <timeless> ... the CDM will display the frame without passing it back to the browser
# [19:29] <timeless> ... in the current deployed and likely to be deployed stuff
# [19:29] <timeless> ... it won't be pushed back to the browser
# [19:29] <timeless> mark: there is a class of content
# [19:29] <timeless> ... if the browser wants to push it back
# [19:29] <timeless> mark_vickers: another way to look at that
# [19:29] <timeless> ... is to say that the media stack and the content decryption module
# [19:29] <timeless> ... are abstract
# [19:29] <timeless> ... and some parts are handled separately from the browser
# [19:30] <timeless> chaals: one of the things that could happen
# [19:30] <timeless> ... the requirement is "don't expose an unencrypted frame stream"
# [19:30] <plh> q+
# [19:30] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [19:30] <timeless> ... that causes encrypted the content to not happen
# [19:30] <timeless> ... it's up to the platforms that use this
# [19:30] <timeless> ... that could be handled by the browser
# [19:30] <timeless> ... in some agreement
# [19:30] <timeless> ... where the browser will not expose encrypted frames
# [19:31] <timeless> ... or it could be handled by a plugin
# [19:31] <timeless> mark: the Media Stack and CDM could be combined
# [19:31] <timeless> ... and the browser has two playback engines
# [19:31] <timeless> chaals: what do things do today?
# [19:31] <timeless> s/mark:/acolwell:/
# [19:31] <timeless> ... or in stuff you could ship some time this year
# [19:32] <timeless> ... is it all, the CDM will handle everything?
# [19:32] <timeless> ... is there anything you could deploy that would not match that model?
# [19:32] <timeless> joesteele: for Flash
# [19:32] <timeless> ... where we have access to DRM
# [19:32] <timeless> ... it's essentially where you describe
# [19:32] <timeless> ... part of the media stack is all combined
# [19:32] <timeless> ... we're not using the <media> element, it's an <object> tag
# [19:32] <timeless> ... we're not passing bytes back to the JS layer
# [19:32] <timeless> ... you can't modify the bytes
# [19:32] <timeless> ack plh
# [19:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:33] * Quits: BobLund (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [19:33] <timeless> plh: you wouldn't be able to apply CSS transforms to a video?
# [19:33] <timeless> ddorwin: you should in some cases be able to do a transform
# [19:33] <timeless> ... if it comes back to the browser
# [19:33] <timeless> chaals: that won't arrise
# [19:33] <timeless> ... Opera doesn't think that you should not have content protection
# [19:34] <timeless> ... but we should recognize that the limitation we're having
# [19:34] <timeless> ... you won't have the power of the web
# [19:34] <timeless> ... until frames go up into the browser rendering pipeline
# [19:34] <bryan> q+
# [19:34] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
# [19:34] <timeless> ... or pass the browser into to the media rendering pipeline
# [19:34] <timeless> mark: there's a class of content where it would be ok to pass the content to the browser
# [19:34] * Joins: BobLund (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [19:35] <timeless> ... there's a class of content where it really needs to be handled in the rendering pipeline
# [19:35] <timeless> ... there are hundreds of thousands
# [19:35] <timeless> ... where there's a media pipeline
# [19:35] <timeless> ... that render pipeline is there
# [19:35] <timeless> ... they don't provide browsers the power to do what browsers can do
# [19:35] <timeless> ... maybe you can pick a region of the screen
# [19:35] <timeless> ... there'd be work to do to enable what you have in html
# [19:35] <timeless> adrianba: two comments
# [19:36] <timeless> ... 1. thinking about whether/how we could apply parts of the web platform
# [19:36] <timeless> ... are good requirements to gather
# [19:36] <timeless> ... so we could feedback it into the discussion
# [19:36] <timeless> ... in IE when we're
# [19:36] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@70.89.66.218)
# [19:36] <timeless> ... developing these new graphics capabilities
# [19:36] <timeless> ... we're trying to push them down through the stack
# [19:36] <timeless> ... in IE
# [19:37] <timeless> ... one of the things we're doing is pushing those things
# [19:37] <timeless> ... so we can have a secure graphics pipleine
# [19:37] <timeless> s/pipleine/pipeline/
# [19:37] <timeless> ... where you can push transformations down into the hardware
# [19:37] <timeless> ... so it's possible to do this, without removing large parts of the platform
# [19:37] <timeless> chaals: an issue for a company like opera
# [19:37] <timeless> ... is doing that on Windows platform devices is one thing
# [19:37] <timeless> ... doing that on a pile of different platforms is another
# [19:38] <timeless> ... the situation where Flash is defacto
# [19:38] <timeless> ... is great, until you get to a device where flash doesn't actually work
# [19:38] <timeless> ... that's a trick problem
# [19:38] <timeless> ... knowing the kind of distribution
# [19:38] <timeless> ... being aware of the requirement
# [19:38] <timeless> ... to make this feasible on all platforms
# [19:38] <timeless> ... to handle open-WebM decoder
# [19:38] <timeless> ... on the OLPC
# [19:39] <Zakim> + +1.650.576.aabb
# [19:39] <timeless> ... we have an ogg theora decoder, and it can handle a calculator
# [19:39] <Zakim> - +1.650.576.aabb
# [19:39] <Zakim> + +1.650.576.aabb
# [19:39] <timeless> ...being able to put things on a platform is important
# [19:39] <timeless> s/...being/... being/
# [19:39] <timeless> ... mozilla has wondered if they could implement this in practice
# [19:39] <timeless> ... on the one hand, we're their competition
# [19:39] <timeless> ... and we'd like to eat their lunch
# [19:39] <timeless> ... but it's important to us that mozilla can make this work
# [19:40] <timeless> mark_vickers: i believe and others can tell me if i'm wrong
# [19:40] <timeless> ... there are 3 models for how this can be chunked
# [19:40] <timeless> ... 1. all in browser (CDM in browser)
# [19:40] <timeless> ... 2. software talks to external software API
# [19:40] <Zakim> - +1.650.576.aabb
# [19:40] <timeless> ... 3. browser talks to system api
# [19:40] <timeless> ... there could be combinations of those
# [19:40] <timeless> ... a lot of the discussion is about that api
# [19:41] <timeless> ... there's embedded security on chips
# [19:41] <timeless> ... i think system apis will become more common
# [19:41] <timeless> ... in a sense, it will be outside w3c
# [19:41] <timeless> ... on the other hand, maybe it's a joint effort
# [19:41] <timeless> ... in the same way that HTTP is a joint effort with IETF
# [19:41] <timeless> ... maybe the web could drive those apis
# [19:42] <timeless> ... I think we have all the players, both on the CDM and Browser side at W3C
# [19:42] <timeless> ddorwin: there's opportunity to do this outside the W3C
# [19:42] <timeless> ... the major players are represented and outside
# [19:42] <timeless> ... there may be devices without a secure pipeline
# [19:42] <timeless> paulc: i get really nervous when plh starts to pace
# [19:42] <timeless> ... it's one thing to read someone's body language
# [19:43] <timeless> ... it's another when our Domain Lead starts to walk the floor
# [19:43] <timeless> ... an chaals is up too
# [19:43] <timeless> bryan: I understand the idea of pushing the content to be rendered in a protected box
# [19:43] <timeless> ... how do you integrate
# [19:43] <timeless> ... from UCs i see in the doc
# [19:43] <timeless> ... how do I do captions?
# [19:43] <timeless> ... do i have access to this display box?
# [19:43] <timeless> ... can i overlay it?
# [19:43] <timeless> ... are there limitations?
# [19:43] <timeless> ddorwin: i don't know about in band captions
# [19:44] <timeless> ... certainly for just a tracks file
# [19:44] <timeless> bryan: i'm talking about things
# [19:44] <timeless> ... a UC in Web and TV is i can find captions anywhere
# [19:44] <timeless> ... crowd sourced
# [19:44] <timeless> chaals: we'd expect in any of these scenarios
# [19:44] <timeless> ... that has a composite over screen region
# [19:44] <timeless> ... even in the worst possible scenario
# [19:44] <timeless> ... in terms of losing Transforms
# [19:45] <timeless> ... we expect to always be able to add captions
# [19:45] <timeless> ddorwin: the most basic is 2 layers
# [19:45] <timeless> q?
# [19:45] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
# [19:45] <timeless> ack bryan
# [19:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:45] <timeless> adrianba: that's QoI
# [19:45] <Mark_Vickers> q+
# [19:45] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [19:45] <timeless> ... if you have a media pipeline that doesn't allow composition
# [19:45] <timeless> ... that would be a problem
# [19:45] <timeless> ... most services we see today
# [19:45] <timeless> ... support the basic ability to overlay something onto part of a screen
# [19:45] <timeless> ... which is how you'd do captions
# [19:45] <timeless> ack Mark_Vickers
# [19:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:46] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: accessibility access in a standard way
# [19:46] <timeless> ... is the number one goal for why we're interested in this
# [19:46] <timeless> ... we've put a lot of effort into making this api open
# [19:46] <timeless> ... we have a standard api for getting embedded caption data
# [19:46] <timeless> ... and standard controls
# [19:46] <timeless> ... the notion is that these standard things would work
# [19:46] <timeless> ... which they do not through a plugin api
# [19:46] <timeless> ... that's the major driving goal
# [19:47] * odinho If the CDM just writes directly to the screen buffer, how do you get to overlay over that?
# [19:47] <timeless> ... we'll have to work through all of these cases
# [19:47] <timeless> ddorwin: there may be platforms of hardware with limitations
# [19:47] <timeless> ... and we may need to work through that
# [19:47] <timeless> mark: this is very much an implementation issue
# [19:47] <timeless> ... we're not proposing to specify restrictions
# [19:47] * Quits: Petr (4a3eb302@109.169.29.95) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [19:47] <timeless> ... as far as the spec is concerned, everything is possible
# [19:48] * timeless odinho there are n video buffers compositalbe
# [19:48] <timeless> ... similar to how OpenGL works
# [19:48] <timeless> mark: application restrictions
# [19:48] <timeless> ... you might want to expose
# [19:48] <timeless> ... but i don't think we'll know that until we get further along the path
# [19:48] <timeless> bryan: does that mean we won't know it's possible to overlay captions until we have implementations
# [19:48] <timeless> adrianba: no
# [19:49] <timeless> ... we're saying there's no reason why this will be a problem
# [19:49] <timeless> ... the spec is designed to allow that
# [19:49] <timeless> ... we know there are implementations that support overlaying captions
# [19:49] <timeless> ... but we don't know how common it will be for implementers to hit restrictions in devices
# [19:49] <timeless> ... if that's a problem, then we need to look at that
# [19:49] <timeless> ... but we don't know that will be a problem
# [19:49] <timeless> chaals: what makes we confident
# [19:50] <timeless> ... is that TV has crap accessibility
# [19:50] <timeless> ... but they've done this quite well with a lot less
# [19:50] <timeless> ... we need to have requirements
# [19:50] <timeless> ... i wanted to pick back up on Mark_Vickers 's point
# [19:50] <timeless> ... on standardizing apis
# [19:50] <JF> Q+
# [19:50] * Zakim sees JF on the speaker queue
# [19:50] <timeless> ... i think it's valuable to get that convergence
# [19:51] <timeless> ... so when someone wants come along and build a browser that can play video content
# [19:51] <timeless> ... if a significant amount of video content on the web is protected
# [19:51] <timeless> ... then standardizing that is good
# [19:51] <timeless> ... whether that's entirely in W3C or somewhere else
# [19:51] <Mark_Vickers> q+
# [19:51] * Zakim sees JF, Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [19:51] <timeless> ... we'd like to ensure it's done w/ W3C well in the loop
# [19:51] <timeless> paulc: chaals, you've said it's possible to do it with someone else
# [19:51] <timeless> ... can you enumerate that other side?
# [19:51] <timeless> chaals: no
# [19:51] <timeless> paulc: that's fine
# [19:52] <timeless> chaals: how do you handle signalling
# [19:52] <timeless> ... you have some thing playing
# [19:52] <timeless> ... the browser Open Media Stack
# [19:52] <timeless> ... and browser with Closed Media Stack
# [19:52] <timeless> ... and running your captions through the Open Media Stack
# [19:52] <timeless> ... you need signalling between the two
# [19:52] <timeless> adrianba: you mean for timelines?
# [19:52] <timeless> chaals: yes
# [19:52] <timeless> adrianba: i think timelines work the same way it does generally for the media stak
# [19:52] <timeless> s/stak/stack/
# [19:53] <timeless> ... an advantage of this approach is you still manipulate an element on the page the same way
# [19:53] <timeless> ... events get fired should be the same
# [19:53] <timeless> chaals: i.e. "yes"
# [19:53] <timeless> ddorwin: there's already cases where hardware is decoding/demuxing
# [19:54] <timeless> JF: you were talking about captions as text overlays
# [19:54] <timeless> ... what about supplemental audio?
# [19:54] <timeless> ... same principal?
# [19:54] <timeless> adrianba: yes,
# [19:54] <timeless> joesteele: along the same lines
# [19:54] <timeless> ... if i wanted to do ad insertion, that should work seemlessly with this proposal?
# [19:54] <odinho> ack JF
# [19:54] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [19:54] <timeless> adrianba: right
# [19:54] <timeless> ... we've tried to ensure that the media-source proposal and media-encryption proposal are orthogonal and compatible
# [19:55] <timeless> ... we've tried to ensure you can control the timeline
# [19:55] <timeless> ... as that data gets processed
# [19:55] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@114.43.117.240)
# [19:55] <timeless> ... if it's encrypted, the encrypted part needs to fire
# [19:55] <timeless> ... one of the things we need to think through
# [19:55] <timeless> ... and acolwell mentioned
# [19:55] <timeless> ... around segments
# [19:55] <timeless> ... another is understanding where in the pipeline decryption happens
# [19:55] <timeless> ... is this something decryption from a transport
# [19:55] <timeless> ... or when you're about to render it
# [19:56] <timeless> ... there are nuances there
# [19:56] <timeless> ... and i think implementation experience will help
# [19:56] <timeless> acolwell: Media Source says that
# [19:56] <timeless> ... for Text Tracks
# [19:56] <timeless> ... they're implemented in chrome independent of the pipeline
# [19:56] <timeless> ... using CurrentTime
# [19:56] <timeless> ... as long as you have CurrentTime
# [19:56] <timeless> ... you can do it
# [19:56] <timeless> chaals: you're getting CurrentTime out of the stack
# [19:56] <timeless> ... alright
# [19:57] <timeless> ... glenn 's timeline question, this is slated for HTML4.1?
# [19:57] <timeless> mark: encrypted stuff?
# [19:57] <timeless> ... this is high priority for the media stack in chrome
# [19:57] <timeless> ddorwin: we're working on it in webkit
# [19:57] <timeless> ... we know there are open options
# [19:57] <timeless> ... seeking feedback
# [19:57] <timeless> ... talked to DRM providers
# [19:57] <timeless> ... still lots of opportunity for feedback
# [19:58] <timeless> ... this is the first roun
# [19:58] <timeless> s/roun/round/
# [19:58] <timeless> q?
# [19:58] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <Mark_Vickers> q-
# [19:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <timeless> paulc: i want to watch the clock
# [19:58] <timeless> ... we were planning on a coffee break
# [19:59] <timeless> acolwell: as we progress on this
# [19:59] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
# [19:59] <timeless> ... DRM providers and Content owners will be motivated to integrate with this
# [19:59] <timeless> ... Content providers will leverage against DRM providers
# [19:59] <timeless> ... we don't have to solve that
# [19:59] <timeless> ... Content wants to be on the web
# [19:59] <timeless> adrianba: a scope comment
# [19:59] <timeless> ... similar to media source
# [19:59] <timeless> ... proposal
# [20:00] <timeless> ... we've collaborated on what we think is a good model for enabling encrypted media in the web platform
# [20:00] <timeless> ... as with the other proposal, we've called out open issues
# [20:00] <timeless> ... i think the scope of the proposal is fairly complete
# [20:00] <timeless> ... and is a good indication of what we think needs to be built
# [20:00] <timeless> ... i wanted to point to Mark_Vickers 's email to the list indicating we'd be open to alternative proposals
# [20:00] <timeless> ... but we think this is a good model
# [20:00] <timeless> mark: as acolwell noted
# [20:01] <timeless> ... as a content provider
# [20:01] <timeless> ... we want it to be available everywhere
# [20:01] <timeless> ... while we can't dictate apis to people
# [20:01] <timeless> ... the incentives are there
# [20:01] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: in the past
# [20:01] <timeless> ... the practice was
# [20:01] <timeless> ... content was made available encrypted
# [20:01] <timeless> ... and paired to a single system
# [20:01] <timeless> ... obviously an issue of leverage
# [20:01] <timeless> ... there's a new model innovated by UltraViolet
# [20:02] <timeless> ... they support multiple decryption models, maybe 6-10
# [20:02] <timeless> ... and the service supports multiple
# [20:02] <timeless> ... the client chooses one
# [20:02] <timeless> ... maybe baked into OS
# [20:02] <timeless> ... or based on costs/models
# [20:02] <timeless> ... and that leaves a bit of burden on providers
# [20:02] <timeless> chaals: i hope so
# [20:02] <timeless> ... having seen these things played out
# [20:03] <timeless> ... "in the best possible world, you're right"
# [20:03] <timeless> ... to Mark_Vickers, mark, yeah
# [20:03] <timeless> ... places where i tend to go, it isn't quite as smooth as that
# [20:03] <timeless> ... there are big lumps in how that plays out
# [20:03] <timeless> ... there are real pressures to make it happen
# [20:03] <timeless> ... what i said before
# [20:03] <timeless> ... it's important this stuff is available on the platforms people have
# [20:03] <timeless> ... multiple mechanism ecosystem is important
# [20:03] <timeless> ... if it doesn't work,
# [20:04] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: UltraViolet is deployed and proven to work in the field
# [20:04] * timeless john who?
# [20:04] <timeless> adrianba: as we went through
# [20:04] <timeless> ... we tried to make sure this API supports the common encryption model
# [20:04] <timeless> ... the way negotiation works for key sysem
# [20:04] <timeless> s/sysem/system/
# [20:04] <timeless> ... the 3 places key system touches
# [20:05] <timeless> ... media file supports multiple
# [20:05] <timeless> ... UA supports multiple
# [20:05] <timeless> ... UA+media has choice
# [20:05] <timeless> ... JS can decide
# [20:05] <timeless> ... so web app can build in cost preference
# [20:05] <timeless> johnsim: John Simmons, Microsoft
# [20:05] <timeless> ... commenting on UltraViolet, PlayReady
# [20:06] <timeless> ... UltraViolet's mechanism was developed by PlayReady at Microsoft and proposed by them in 2009
# [20:06] <timeless> ... originally they weren't going down that road
# [20:06] <timeless> ... Microsoft + PlayReady team at MS
# [20:06] <timeless> ... sought a stack that supports interoperable encoding/playback
# [20:06] <timeless> ... speaks to our philosophy
# [20:06] <timeless> ... of not creating vertical stack
# [20:06] <timeless> ... but promoting online video and interoperability
# [20:07] <timeless> ... one of the reasons we're Bullish about participating in this
# [20:07] <timeless> ... it's part of our vision of DRM interoperability
# [20:07] <timeless> ... throughout the stack will enable large growt
# [20:07] <timeless> s/growt/growth/
# [20:07] <timeless> ... to address chaals 's concern
# [20:07] <timeless> ... our vision is the interoperability you're talking about
# [20:07] <timeless> chaals: my vision is World Domination for Opera
# [20:07] <timeless> [ Break ]
# [20:09] * Joins: jarek (jarek@83.27.237.68)
# [20:10] * Quits: mark (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [20:12] * Joins: hkasanuki (cdf864fc@207.192.75.252)
# [20:23] <timeless> paulc: we want to wrap up
# [20:23] <timeless> ... and we need to decide how to reconicile
# [20:23] <timeless> ... any remaining questions
# [20:24] <timeless> s/reconicile/reconcile/
# [20:24] <timeless> janina: what we're hearing is good from the accessibility point of view
# [20:24] <timeless> ... accessibility, ability to overlay
# [20:24] <timeless> ... what were flash points in the past
# [20:24] <timeless> ... sound very workable
# [20:24] <timeless> paulc: i know the TF had high level concerns
# [20:25] <timeless> ... but what you're hearing is very positive
# [20:25] <timeless> janina: XX and YY met at TPAC
# [20:25] <timeless> ... and we're pretty satisfied
# [20:25] <timeless> s/XX and YY/Web and TV IG and Protocols and Formats WG/
# [20:25] <timeless> paulc: and you're a cochair of PF?
# [20:26] <timeless> janina: i'm a cochair of PF
# [20:26] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: I'm a cochair of Web and TV
# [20:26] <timeless> ... as is yosuke
# [20:26] <timeless> Topic: Encrypted Demo
# [20:26] <timeless> ... what's added are 3 methods and
# [20:26] <timeless> ... we've extended canPlayType
# [20:27] <timeless> ... example code ban be this much
# [20:27] <timeless> s/ban/can/
# [20:27] <adrianba> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#extensions Extension APIs
# [20:27] <timeless> ... fairly simple
# [20:27] <timeless> ... for the demo
# [20:27] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@94.234.170.169) (Connection reset by peer)
# [20:27] <timeless> ... an official Chrome build with flags enabled
# [20:27] <adrianba> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#examples Code Examples
# [20:27] <timeless> ... an extension of what acolwell showed
# [20:27] <timeless> ... you try to play an encrypted video
# [20:27] <timeless> [ Error dialog ]
# [20:28] <timeless> ddorwin: same page
# [20:28] <timeless> ... you can see the track element is working in this demo
# [20:28] <timeless> ... and it's adaptive
# [20:28] <timeless> s/... what's/ddorwin: what's/
# [20:28] <timeless> ... what you missed is key needed
# [20:28] <timeless> ... and key exchange
# [20:29] <timeless> plh: you know you, you don't need encryption to see this video
# [20:29] <timeless> [ Laughter ]
# [20:29] <timeless> ddorwin: yes, it's also using ClearKey
# [20:29] * timeless what is that?
# [20:29] * joesteele ClearKey is the example CDM
# [20:29] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [20:30] <timeless> Topic: CfC Create Media Task Force
# [20:30] * Joins: mark (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:31] * timeless pokes adrianba
# [20:31] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0007.html
# [20:31] <timeless> paulc: i want to point out, when this was sent out, we only had one of these proposals, the second one we did today
# [20:31] <timeless> ... if people want to work on this, but don't want to disrupt this WG
# [20:31] <timeless> ... maybe we should have a TF
# [20:31] <chaals> [clearKey is a demo DRM that you can look inside...]
# [20:31] <timeless> s|http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0007.html|-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0007.html CfC Create Media Task Force|
# [20:32] <timeless> paulc: since the request came out of Web and TV IG
# [20:32] <timeless> ... we wanted to note they had to join this WG
# [20:32] * Quits: jarek (jarek@83.27.237.68) (Quit: jarek)
# [20:32] <timeless> ... there's be a new ML
# [20:32] <timeless> ... while we create a TF, decisions are still made by the WG
# [20:32] <ddorwin> -> http://downloads.webmproject.org/adaptive-encrypted-demo/adaptive/dash-player.html Encrypted Adaptive Demo (from previous topic)
# [20:32] <timeless> ... we'll have facilitators, for Accessibility, that's janina, and MikeSmith
# [20:33] <timeless> ... an initial point of contact
# [20:33] <timeless> ... report back every 2 weeks
# [20:33] <timeless> ... TF could draft scope, initial work plan
# [20:33] <timeless> ... in this case, Encrypted and probably also media source
# [20:33] <timeless> ... feedback we got
# [20:33] <timeless> ... some people didn't like the direction on Encryption
# [20:34] <timeless> ... and some people didn't like the name
# [20:34] <timeless> ... I chose it for the short email: public-html-media@w3.org
# [20:34] <timeless> ... i think we're in an interesting point in the Timeline of the WG
# [20:34] <timeless> ... maybe we just keep these proposals at the WG level
# [20:34] <chaals> q+
# [20:34] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:34] <timeless> ... we have bugzilla components for both
# [20:35] <timeless> ... we could morph Thursday meetings from just status on the HTML5 document
# [20:35] <timeless> ... to having discussions about the Media items at the meetings
# [20:35] <timeless> ... i'm open to other suggestions
# [20:35] <timeless> ... we got pushback on CfC
# [20:35] <timeless> ... chairs view it's in our domain on how to go forward
# [20:35] <timeless> ... looking for feedback
# [20:35] <timeless> ack chaals
# [20:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:36] <timeless> chaals: i don't think we need another TV+Web IG within HTML WG
# [20:36] <timeless> ... they've done a good job
# [20:36] <timeless> ... we'd like the work done at the level of the WG
# [20:36] <timeless> ... if we get back to the flame storm when this was first presented
# [20:36] <timeless> ... then a TF is probably an administrative necessity to make it work
# [20:36] <timeless> ... that would be unfortunate
# [20:36] <timeless> ... just because you have most of the people
# [20:37] <timeless> ... for encryption and media stream
# [20:37] <timeless> ... shouldn't be that you put them together in a TF
# [20:37] <timeless> ... that would be administration over sense
# [20:37] <timeless> ... TFs should be scoped on tasks
# [20:37] <timeless> ... just because they interact/interrelate are separate
# [20:37] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: i don't want to limit participation
# [20:37] <timeless> ... everything should be above board and visible
# [20:38] <timeless> ... there are people who may want to get involved
# [20:38] <timeless> ... who have media expertise
# [20:38] <timeless> ... who won't have expertise in HTML
# [20:38] <timeless> ... we'll need a F2F on this subject
# [20:38] <timeless> ... w/o causing an HTML WG F2F
# [20:38] <timeless> ... on media source
# [20:38] <timeless> ... it can go either way
# [20:38] <timeless> ... but again, i think there's some in common
# [20:38] <chaals> q+ to say HTML can hold f2f meetings on specific parts of what it is doing...
# [20:38] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:39] <timeless> ... there will be conversations where we'll be talking about both proposals
# [20:39] <timeless> ... no matter how we go
# [20:39] <timeless> adrianba: i agree with what Mark_Vickers said
# [20:39] <timeless> ... i proposed the TF on a WG call
# [20:39] <timeless> ... after we saw the discussion on the encrypted media proposal
# [20:39] <timeless> ... it appeared some people wanted to not work on it
# [20:39] <timeless> ... there are others who wanted to work on this
# [20:39] * Quits: mjs (mjs@24.6.209.189) (Quit: mjs)
# [20:40] <timeless> ... but didn't want to contribute on other areas
# [20:40] <timeless> ... i'm not wedded to a TF/no TF
# [20:40] <timeless> ... i'd like to see the work proceed in the WG
# [20:40] <timeless> ... i'd like people to be able to focus on this area
# [20:40] <timeless> ... we want to make sure there's machinery to have discussion on this
# [20:40] <adrianba> q?
# [20:40] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:40] <timeless> paulc: we're looking for input on how to process the encrypted media proposal
# [20:40] <tantek> q?
# [20:40] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:40] <timeless> ... and the media stream proposals
# [20:41] <timeless> ... chairs are looking for feedback on how to process these two
# [20:41] <timeless> ... looking for as wide as possible
# [20:41] <timeless> tantek: has anyone suggested a CG instead of a TF?
# [20:41] <timeless> ... to be more nimble
# [20:41] <timeless> paulc: no, they submitted it directly to the HTML WG
# [20:41] * Quits: Arno_ (Arnaud@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [20:41] <timeless> ack chaals
# [20:41] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say HTML can hold f2f meetings on specific parts of what it is doing...
# [20:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:41] <timeless> chaals: in webapps, we don't have any formal TFs
# [20:42] <timeless> ... but DOM3 events was done on a separate ML
# [20:42] <timeless> ... with their own Teleconfs
# [20:42] <timeless> ... dedicated to DOM3 events
# [20:42] <timeless> ... weekly
# [20:42] <timeless> ... when the WG wasn't having calls at all
# [20:42] <timeless> ... process is what we create when we behave badly
# [20:42] <timeless> ... if we behave sufficiently nicely without having to create formal process
# [20:42] <timeless> ... it's good
# [20:43] <timeless> paulc: alright
# [20:43] <timeless> ... to be transparent, chairs had dinner last night
# [20:43] <timeless> ... do you want to know what we had or what we talked about?
# [20:43] <timeless> [ Laughter ]
# [20:43] <timeless> paulc: mjs took us to a place that was a favorite dinnertime spot in the Netscape days
# [20:43] <timeless> ... in true browser tradition
# [20:43] * Joins: Arno_ (Arnaud@205.248.100.252)
# [20:43] <timeless> ... La Fiesta, we went back to our roots
# [20:43] <timeless> ... chairs agree whole-heartedly
# [20:44] <timeless> ... wanting to change the culture and mode/mood
# [20:44] <timeless> ... and we want to encourage exactly that on those items
# [20:44] <timeless> ... i was going to ask chaals if you had an opinion on a separate ML
# [20:44] <timeless> ... other opinions here?
# [20:44] <timeless> ... a. in WG
# [20:44] <timeless> ... b. in WG w/ separate meetings/F2F
# [20:45] <timeless> ... ironic because Cochairs+plh were talking about more regular F2F meetings
# [20:45] <timeless> ... possibly a meeting between now and TPAC
# [20:45] <timeless> ... plh + paulc: took the suggestion from chaals and myself
# [20:45] <timeless> ... the hoops we had to go through to find meeting space were difficult
# [20:45] * Quits: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252) (Client exited)
# [20:45] <timeless> ... six months in advance is easy, 3 months is quite difficult
# [20:46] <timeless> ... c. separate email list
# [20:46] <timeless> ... d. separate telconf
# [20:46] <timeless> ... we have bugzilla components
# [20:46] <timeless> ... WG members could opt in
# [20:46] <timeless> ... principal: they're WG meetings, anyone from outside
# [20:46] <timeless> ... Josh_Soref is an observer
# [20:47] <timeless> Josh_Soref: I stopped scribing Web and TV because i couldn't call in w/o being a member
# [20:47] <timeless> janina: Mark_Vickers mentioned
# [20:47] <timeless> ... some people would be coming w/ expertise not based on processing markup
# [20:47] <timeless> paulc: chairs always have the scope to bring in experts to bleed ideas/items off
# [20:47] <timeless> ... the place we have to be careful is when people make contributions from a WG perspective
# [20:47] * Joins: cyns (cdf86654@128.30.52.43)
# [20:47] <timeless> ... if we have this dialog, we'd want to make sure existing issues, raised points
# [20:48] <timeless> ... if we'd want to invite experts
# [20:48] <timeless> ... on other options of feasibility
# [20:48] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: I wasn't suggesting invited experts/non members
# [20:48] <timeless> ... people should be members
# [20:48] <timeless> ... WG or TF, there should be clear meeting times
# [20:48] <timeless> ... so people with interest in these areas
# [20:49] <timeless> ... could only spend time on this
# [20:49] <timeless> chaals: +1 on "these people should be members"
# [20:49] <timeless> paulc: always useful to have the club decide whether it wants to have guests
# [20:49] <timeless> ... or force people to join the club
# [20:49] <timeless> ... taking silence as affirmation
# [20:49] <timeless> ... we should look to create a ML
# [20:49] * odinho what is "THIS" discussion?
# [20:49] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: separate ML
# [20:49] <timeless> JF: as an accessibility TF
# [20:50] * odinho encryption only I hope?
# [20:50] <timeless> ... we have a public-html-a11y@
# [20:50] <timeless> ... that's worked for us
# [20:50] <timeless> BobLund: +1
# [20:50] <timeless> joesteele: clarification
# [20:50] <timeless> ... I agree a separate ML
# [20:50] <timeless> ... it would still be public
# [20:50] <chaals> s/+1 on "these/+1 - noting particularly the "these/
# [20:51] <timeless> ... we switched away from prefix: www-*@ to public-*
# [20:51] <timeless> s/... we/paulc: we/
# [20:51] <timeless> anne: "This discussion"
# [20:51] <timeless> paulc: we were talking about Encrypted Media and Media Sources
# [20:51] <timeless> ... and topical F2F meeting
# [20:52] <timeless> ... where we could make progress
# [20:52] <timeless> ... if we tried to schedule a F2F in Aug or Sep
# [20:52] <timeless> ... would people be interested in trying to advance the work
# [20:52] <joesteele> +1
# [20:52] <timeless> chaals: we don't really like the blending of all the media stuff as one thing
# [20:52] <timeless> ... separate audiences
# [20:52] <timeless> ... we can live with separate lists
# [20:52] <timeless> ... we can live with separate meetings
# [20:52] <timeless> ... expect us to join for what we care about
# [20:53] <timeless> ... and leaving things we don't care about ourselves
# [20:53] <timeless> ... and similar for others
# [20:53] * Quits: cyns (cdf86654@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [20:53] <timeless> anne: in particular, streaming seems far less controversial
# [20:53] <timeless> paulc: what do you mean by separate?
# [20:53] <timeless> ... group doesn't seem interested in TF
# [20:53] <timeless> ... do you want 2 new email lists
# [20:53] <timeless> ... or tagged messages
# [20:53] <timeless> chaals: if we behave nicely
# [20:53] <timeless> ... if it's easy to figure out
# [20:54] <timeless> ... so long as that works nicely, that's ok
# [20:54] <timeless> paulc: if we had a F2F
# [20:54] <timeless> ... 2 days
# [20:54] <timeless> ... encrypted on day 1
# [20:54] <timeless> ... sources on day 2
# [20:54] <timeless> ... would that work?
# [20:54] <timeless> chaals: yes
# [20:54] <timeless> paulc: you're asking for work allocation split
# [20:54] <timeless> ... for phone calls, which call for which item
# [20:54] <timeless> chaals: i don't think it was just us
# [20:55] <timeless> tantek: i want to echo what chaals is saying
# [20:55] <timeless> ... i think mozilla is also interested in media source streaming
# [20:55] <timeless> ... and what anne says, that seems fairly uncontroverisal
# [20:55] <timeless> s/uncontroverisal/uncontroversial/
# [20:55] <timeless> ... i'd say media stream source should be a core part of HTML.next
# [20:55] <timeless> ... the other part i don't think we could get consensus on
# [20:56] <timeless> adrianba: I want to support what chaals was asking for
# [20:56] <timeless> ... we want to enable people to participate in the things they're interested in
# [20:56] <timeless> ... as a general work practice, having that discipline makes life easier for everyone
# [20:56] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: listening to chaals and tantek , i'm more convinced
# [20:56] <timeless> ... of handling the two things differently
# [20:56] <timeless> ... source has been out for about a year
# [20:56] <timeless> ... it's not as much of controversy
# [20:57] <timeless> ... as level of development
# [20:57] <timeless> ... i don't think it needs as much intense meetings
# [20:57] * chaals notes that this isn't really amazing - we did exactly that in this meeting, where we handled a bunch of stuff on accessibility when we had the people here, and to some extent made that clear in advance.
# [20:57] <timeless> ... for encryption, i think we need meetings much sooner
# [20:57] <timeless> ... and another one shortly after
# [20:57] <timeless> ... i think they may need to be handled differently
# [20:57] * chaals thinks: 8 weeks notice... unless you want to meet in Gothenberg
# [20:57] <timeless> ... i hope we can have this soon
# [20:57] <timeless> acolwell: i agree with adrianba
# [20:58] <timeless> ... we want to be as inclusive for both proposals
# [20:58] <timeless> ... we, google, want to get this done
# [20:58] <timeless> ... we wanted to keep them separate so we could evolve them separately
# [20:58] <timeless> mark: i don't have an opinion on process
# [20:58] <timeless> ... but decide soon
# [20:58] <timeless> ... what does it mean for something to be a core part of HTML.next?
# [20:58] <timeless> paulc: i put this item on agenda before charter discussion
# [20:59] <timeless> ... chairs and team would like to go down the wiki items and say
# [20:59] <timeless> ... should these things be covered by scope of the charter for the WG
# [20:59] <timeless> mark: if it isn't in the Charter, it isn't worked on the WG?
# [20:59] <timeless> paulc: not without ReChartering
# [20:59] <timeless> ... back to Mark_Vickers about sooner
# [21:00] <timeless> ... the reason i suggested Sep was splitting the difference between now and TPAC
# [21:00] <timeless> ... what about a F2F at the end of june?
# [21:00] <timeless> ... and plh's blood is boiling
# [21:00] <tantek> there really seems to be different constraints, interests, urgency for Media src/streams vs. DRM.
# [21:00] <timeless> ... talking about something for which we don't have a host?
# [21:00] <timeless> ... especially for Europeans who take August off
# [21:00] <timeless> ... where North Americans lose the first week
# [21:00] <timeless> ... of September to vacation
# [21:00] <timeless> ... but I want to make it clear we need a host
# [21:01] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: there are 3 authors to this proposal
# [21:01] <timeless> ... we'd like to be part of a more intense group
# [21:01] <timeless> ... but i don't want to form a more exclusionary group
# [21:01] <timeless> ... i'd like to create more high bandwidth involvement
# [21:01] * odinho tantek +1
# [21:01] <timeless> ... but not forced to wait
# [21:01] <timeless> chaals: i understand 2 weeks
# [21:01] <timeless> ... we flew 3 people from Europe to the meeting
# [21:01] <timeless> ... that was expensive
# [21:02] <timeless> ... if you want Soon, we could do Beijing
# [21:02] <timeless> ... or we could do Guteborg
# [21:02] <timeless> ... and we wouldn't object to short notice
# [21:02] <timeless> q+
# [21:02] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [21:02] <timeless> ... but this is W3C
# [21:02] <timeless> ... and part of this is dealing with the world
# [21:02] <timeless> paulc: we're on the west cosat
# [21:02] <timeless> s/cosat/coast/
# [21:02] <timeless> ... we intentionally picked this
# [21:02] <timeless> ... for good attendance
# [21:03] <timeless> ... we're tentatively in Europe Oct 31-Nov 3
# [21:03] <tantek> I think decoupling Media src/streams vs. DRM would benefit *both*, i.e. permit the folks that want to urgently meet quickly on DRM to go ahead and do so in a more agile fashion, and reduce the number of folks to coordinate with for meeting time/place preferences etc.
# [21:03] <timeless> ... for TPAC
# [21:03] <timeless> ... the general model is that Web Apps would meet Mon Tue
# [21:03] <tantek> woohoo - TPAC during Halloween again!
# [21:03] <timeless> ... and HTML would meet Thu Fri
# [21:04] <timeless> ... the pattern since 2009
# [21:04] <timeless> ... Plenary on Wed
# [21:04] <timeless> ... some have W3C process in cache
# [21:04] <timeless> ... usual process in W3C is 8 weeks notice
# [21:04] <timeless> ... that doesn't preclude us
# [21:04] * Joins: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252)
# [21:04] <adrianba> -> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/ TPAC 2012
# [21:04] <timeless> ... from having separate topical meetings by phone
# [21:04] <timeless> q?
# [21:04] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [21:05] <timeless> ... plh: anything to add about a F2F
# [21:05] <timeless> plh: everything has been said
# [21:05] <timeless> ... would be concern about meeting F2F every two weeks
# [21:05] <timeless> ... a lot of work on participants
# [21:05] <glenn> won't be present at afternoon's session, but cox votes +1 for including Encrypted Media Extension in "core html.next" deliverables
# [21:05] <timeless> ack me
# [21:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:05] <timeless> Josh_Soref: this meeting painful for me to get to
# [21:06] <timeless> acolwell: trying to schedule F2F now may be premature
# [21:06] <timeless> ... does it make sense to see where it goes before?
# [21:06] <timeless> chaals: Josh_Soref isn't the only person
# [21:06] * Quits: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252) (Client exited)
# [21:06] <timeless> ... there are people not in this room
# [21:07] <timeless> ... for the same reason it was painful for him
# [21:07] <timeless> ... you need to plan with a pile of lead time
# [21:07] <timeless> ... and you'll hit Summer
# [21:07] <timeless> ... two months of misery
# [21:07] <timeless> ... Americans don't work in July
# [21:07] <timeless> ... Europeans don't work in August
# [21:07] <timeless> ... from a practical perspective
# [21:07] <timeless> ... we should figure it out in the next week
# [21:07] <timeless> ... if you want to do it before you get buried in summer
# [21:07] <timeless> paulc: it was strictly getting rooms
# [21:07] <timeless> ... which was the problem
# [21:08] <timeless> ... which is why we had to change dates
# [21:08] <timeless> ... as the person paying the bills
# [21:08] <timeless> ... it isn't cheap
# [21:08] <timeless> ... i even have to pay for security
# [21:08] <timeless> ... it's less expensive doing it here than in a hotel
# [21:08] <timeless> chaals: i can get dirt cheap meeting space in Morocco
# [21:09] <joesteele> +1 for Morrocco
# [21:09] <timeless> paulc: rubys, do you think we have enough feedback from the WG?
# [21:09] <timeless> rubys: I think so
# [21:09] <MikeSmith> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/May2012F2FMeeting
# [21:09] <joesteele> s/Morrocco/Morocco/
# [21:09] <timeless> s/sam:/rubys:/g
# [21:09] * timeless thanks joesteele
# [21:09] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [21:09] <timeless> paulc: the rest of you, please corner us 1-on-1
# [21:09] <timeless> ... if anyone wants to host, please let us know directly
# [21:10] <timeless> glenn: presumably this wouldn't be the whole
# [21:10] <timeless> paulc: at least one company indicated a willingness to divide focus
# [21:10] * Quits: kennyluck (kennyluck@114.43.117.240) (Ping timeout)
# [21:10] <timeless> ... i wouldn't be surprised if we divided the time
# [21:10] <timeless> ... if we needed a room for at least 30 people
# [21:10] <timeless> ... especially if Mark_Vickers indicated others might get engaged
# [21:10] <timeless> ... Duey - Truman phenomena
# [21:11] <timeless> glenn: Cox can volunteer meeting space in Atlanta
# [21:11] <timeless> BobLund: CableLabs can offer space in Denver
# [21:11] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: Comcast can offer space in Philadelphia
# [21:11] <timeless> mark: are the chairs saying we're going to work on these two items in ernest?
# [21:12] <timeless> paulc: I'm not hearing dissent at all
# [21:12] <timeless> ... i'd like to agree on the order for after lunch
# [21:12] <joesteele> s/ernest/earnest/
# [21:12] * timeless thanks
# [21:12] <timeless> ... everyone put up your hands if you'll be hear at 5pm
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# [21:13] <timeless> ... raise your hand if you'll be here at 4pm
# [21:13] <timeless> ... raise your hand if you'll be here at 3pm
# [21:13] <timeless> ... looks like we're losing people at lunch
# [21:13] <timeless> ... chaals can scribe
# [21:13] <timeless> ... proposal: we move agenda down
# [21:13] <timeless> ... nice segway doing charter after lunch
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# [21:14] <timeless> s/segway/segue/
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# [21:17] <timeless> [ Lunch ]
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# [21:51] <timeless> Zakim, BobLund has left F2F
# [21:51] <Zakim> timeless, I was not aware that BobLund was in F2F
# [21:51] <timeless> Zakim, BobLund has entered F2F
# [21:51] <Zakim> +BobLund; got it
# [21:51] <timeless> Zakim, BobLund has left F2F
# [21:51] <Zakim> -BobLund; got it
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# [22:16] <timeless> Topic: Charter v.Next
# [22:16] * Joins: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [22:16] <timeless> plh: some of you are lucky enough not to be familiar with how we work
# [22:16] * Joins: Wonsuk (wonsuk73@205.248.100.252)
# [22:17] <timeless> ... when people look to joining the group
# [22:17] <timeless> ... you're committing to RF agreements
# [22:17] <timeless> ... so you go to the lawyers
# [22:17] <timeless> ... if i put a charter that said "you can do whatever you want"
# [22:17] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@66.87.2.131)
# [22:17] <timeless> ... your lawyers will kill me right away
# [22:17] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter
# [22:17] <timeless> ... i put a list of things in the wiki
# [22:17] <timeless> ... of things we could put in the charter
# [22:18] <timeless> ... i'm only interested in In-Scope or Out-Of-Scope for the WG
# [22:18] <timeless> ... it doesn't affect how many Specs
# [22:18] <timeless> ... of course, we try to draw the charter to give freedom for the WG to, e.g. add a new html element
# [22:18] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@85.228.140.157)
# [22:18] <timeless> ... this morning we had a discussion on Media Source and Encrypted Media extensions
# [22:18] <timeless> ... and you guys agreed to make a TF
# [22:18] <timeless> No!
# [22:19] <timeless> plh: oh, a ML
# [22:19] <timeless> ... can we assume you're ok with adding that to the charter
# [22:19] <timeless> tantek: is there a methodology for what is in HTML WG v. Web Apps?
# [22:19] <timeless> plh: i don't think there's a clear methodology
# [22:19] <timeless> ... sometimes it's historically
# [22:19] <timeless> s/historically/for historical reasons/
# [22:19] <timeless> tantek: let me put forth a straw proposal
# [22:20] <timeless> ... if something makes sense in a more focused WG
# [22:20] <timeless> ... maybe it can be in that WG
# [22:20] <timeless> plh: I don't think anything in the proposal...
# [22:20] <timeless> ... except for Web Intents
# [22:20] * Joins: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98)
# [22:20] <timeless> tantek: sure
# [22:20] <timeless> plh: I know hiro_away wanted to add http+aes/https+aes schemes
# [22:20] <timeless> s/hiro_away/Hixie/
# [22:20] <timeless> ... any objection to that?
# [22:21] <timeless> paulc: you have that under media
# [22:21] <timeless> ddorwin: I think it's generic
# [22:21] <timeless> anne: it was in the proposals for Encrypted Media extensions
# [22:21] <timeless> plh: i didn't hear someone say "we want it out-of-scope"
# [22:21] <timeless> anne: that would seem kind of lame
# [22:21] <timeless> paulc: why?
# [22:22] <timeless> anne: it was a proposal in context for Encrypted Media
# [22:22] <ddorwin> to clarify, it was proposed as an alternative, not "in the proposals"
# [22:22] <timeless> ... so why exclude?
# [22:22] <timeless> plh: then there was MikeSmith 's list
# [22:22] <timeless> ... one of the problems we're having is that we have other WGs extending HTML
# [22:22] <timeless> ... is there anything in that list that we'd rather do in the HTML WG?
# [22:23] <timeless> ... e.g., we rejected the ping= attribute for HTML5
# [22:23] <timeless> ... people should be free to bring it up for .Next
# [22:23] <timeless> ... two things to consider now:
# [22:23] <timeless> ... Web Components
# [22:23] <timeless> ... Web Intents
# [22:23] <timeless> ... they're currently in Web Apps
# [22:23] <timeless> ... at some point, Web Apps, was like "it seems outside our area, more into HTML than into Web Apps"
# [22:23] <timeless> ... should we add Web Components into scope for this WG
# [22:24] <timeless> ... or should we let Web Apps deal with it?
# [22:24] <timeless> q?
# [22:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:24] <timeless> anne: HTML Parser will most likely change for Web Components
# [22:24] <timeless> ... if you want to keep defining HTML Parser, then you should add Web Components to Scope
# [22:24] <timeless> chaals: The Web Apps charter says that
# [22:25] <timeless> ... ~ a "low barrier process to move stuff from one group to the other"
# [22:25] <timeless> ... the fact that you have to change the parser should be severable from defining Web Components
# [22:25] <timeless> ... HTML WG defines the Parsing
# [22:25] <timeless> ... i'm not sure you need a tight joint deliverable
# [22:25] <timeless> plh: the Parser is already in Scope
# [22:25] <timeless> chaals: we should ensure that the Parser is in Scope
# [22:26] <timeless> anne: Web Components would tie into certain specific elements of the Parser
# [22:26] <timeless> plh: does the deliverable need to be listed in the HTML spec?
# [22:26] <timeless> anne: I, personally, think all HTML elements should be listed in the HTML spec
# [22:26] <timeless> paulc: let's put it in the HTML WG charter
# [22:26] <timeless> anne: it's unclear how we'd organize it
# [22:27] <timeless> plh: i'd like to avoid the HTML WG later saying "let's put it in the HTML spec"
# [22:27] <timeless> ... and someone says "it's not in Charter"
# [22:27] <timeless> chaals: let's put it in the charter
# [22:27] <timeless> mjs: for specific elements
# [22:27] <timeless> ... it might be debatable where things should be developed
# [22:27] <timeless> ... but perhaps we should have a catchall item in charter
# [22:28] <timeless> ... to say anything that involves changes to the parser
# [22:28] <timeless> ... could be in scope either as a joint deliverable or sole deliverable
# [22:28] <timeless> plh: i'm fine with something
# [22:28] <timeless> ... that says elements or attributes
# [22:28] <timeless> paulc: "it's in the scope of the HTML WG to define the syntax of elements and attributes within the HTML elements"
# [22:29] <timeless> mjs: as long as it says "this is a non exhaustive list of items"
# [22:29] <timeless> paulc: "The following is a set of examples"
# [22:29] <timeless> plh: would web intents fall into that?
# [22:29] <timeless> MikeSmith: Web Intents is only one element
# [22:29] <timeless> ... and it wouldn't involve parser changes
# [22:29] <timeless> paulc: who does that require coordination with?
# [22:29] <timeless> Josh_Soref: DAP+WebApps
# [22:30] <MikeSmith> q?
# [22:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:30] <timeless> paulc: as a general principle, should the charter indicate who is currently working on items?
# [22:30] <timeless> plh: yes
# [22:30] <timeless> paulc: so we should include references to the other group's + deliverables
# [22:30] <timeless> plh: i gather it's the same for the others
# [22:30] <timeless> ... we'd use this catch all sentence as well
# [22:30] <timeless> paulc: this list
# [22:30] <timeless> ... has been accessible for quite some time
# [22:31] <timeless> ... is there any reason we wouldn't include the entire list?
# [22:31] <timeless> tantek: more of a meta comment on the list
# [22:31] <timeless> ... there's an antipattern
# [22:31] <timeless> ... new person comes to web platform
# [22:31] <timeless> ... with new feature, requests new element
# [22:31] <timeless> ... i'd request the opposite
# [22:31] <timeless> ... we should be very conservative
# [22:31] <timeless> paulc: why is that an antipattern
# [22:31] <timeless> tantek: it's what every new person does
# [22:32] <timeless> ... and it's most often the wrong answer
# [22:32] <timeless> ... we have CSS, we have rel= attributes
# [22:32] <timeless> ... there are various other ways to do it
# [22:32] <timeless> ... that Browser devs know to do instead
# [22:32] <timeless> mjs: do we have lists that proposed
# [22:32] <timeless> ... new types/rels?
# [22:32] <timeless> ... are there new attributes?
# [22:33] <timeless> MikeSmith: this list doesn't cover new attribute values/apis
# [22:33] <timeless> mjs: we shouldn't presume they'll be added in the form proposed
# [22:33] <timeless> ... i agree with not wanting to favor new elements
# [22:33] <timeless> ... "here are some examples of elements and features"
# [22:33] <timeless> tantek: i'm for examples
# [22:33] <timeless> ... but not as elements
# [22:33] <timeless> rubys: MikeSmith, "not for new attributes?"
# [22:33] <timeless> MikeSmith: not new attribute _values_
# [22:34] <timeless> plh: I don't think we should put that text
# [22:34] <timeless> ... it would be too descriptive
# [22:34] <timeless> ... i'd be fine with a generic statement from mjs
# [22:34] * Quits: frankolivier (cdf86554@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [22:34] <MikeSmith> q?
# [22:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:34] <timeless> mjs: how about a generic statement and a link to a list of examples
# [22:35] <timeless> mjs: tantek: should features include "no elements", or does he object to an "exclusive list of elements"
# [22:35] <timeless> tantek: I'm ok with a list of functionality
# [22:35] <timeless> ... "Web Intents is functionality"
# [22:35] <timeless> ... but <intent> is picking a specific solution
# [22:35] <timeless> mjs: you want a list of Functional Areas
# [22:35] <timeless> ... but not to describe Syntax
# [22:35] <timeless> tantek: right
# [22:35] <timeless> ... Syntax is inappropriate for a charter
# [22:36] <timeless> paulc: i understand the point you're making
# [22:36] <MikeSmith> q?
# [22:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:36] <timeless> ... the fact that the bad practice that you want to eliminate/avoid
# [22:36] <timeless> ... is that people view the HTML WG as owning the syntax/language
# [22:36] <MikeSmith> q+ to speak
# [22:36] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [22:36] <timeless> ... the charter has to say that
# [22:36] <timeless> ... if someone does want to follow the antipattern of adding the new element
# [22:36] <timeless> ... but they should come to the HTML WG
# [22:36] <timeless> tantek: that if you want a new element, you can come to the HTML WG
# [22:37] <timeless> s/WG/WG?/
# [22:37] <timeless> ... No. I'd rather it not say, and they be confused
# [22:37] <timeless> ... and have them ask, and be told, "no, do something else"
# [22:37] <timeless> mjs: if people are confused, they won't know to whom to ask
# [22:37] <timeless> ... and they'll get the wrong answer
# [22:37] <timeless> ... and they'll decide it's ok to do
# [22:37] <timeless> paulc: mjs stole my next question
# [22:38] <timeless> ... do you want the charter should say "no one else in w3c should be creating new elements in the html language"
# [22:38] <timeless> tantek: no
# [22:38] <MikeSmith> q?
# [22:38] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [22:38] <timeless> cyns: Aria is a good example
# [22:38] <timeless> tantek: +1 to cyns
# [22:38] <timeless> ... even the style attribute
# [22:38] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [22:38] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to speak
# [22:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:38] <timeless> MikeSmith: ARIA is a good example of an extension developed outside HTML WG
# [22:38] * Joins: paulc (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [22:38] <timeless> ... but which came back
# [22:38] <timeless> ... the idea of extensions being developed
# [22:38] * Joins: cyns (cdf86654@128.30.52.43)
# [22:38] <timeless> ... but never being folded back
# [22:39] <timeless> ... i think having new elements being created and not folded back
# [22:39] <mjs> q+
# [22:39] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [22:39] <timeless> ... i don't think that's a good idea
# [22:39] <timeless> ... let me talk about a specific example
# [22:39] <timeless> ... look at <speech> stuff
# [22:39] <timeless> ... there still isn't consensus
# [22:39] <timeless> ... on new features for speech/tts
# [22:39] <timeless> ... that there needs to be markup at all
# [22:39] <timeless> ... i'd argue if there doesn't need to be markup,
# [22:39] <timeless> ... then there's no need to coordinate
# [22:40] <rubys> q+
# [22:40] * Zakim sees mjs, rubys on the speaker queue
# [22:40] <timeless> ... "for these features, if new elements/attributes seem to be necessary/desirable
# [22:40] <timeless> ... ... then that work is in scope for the HTML WG"
# [22:40] <timeless> ... i'd further assert, that the group should consider
# [22:40] <timeless> ... whether it should restrict itself more to Markup features
# [22:40] <timeless> ... an example of this is WebGL
# [22:40] <timeless> ... <canvas> work was done before it came to HTML WG
# [22:40] <timeless> ... work continues to be done in HTML WG
# [22:40] <timeless> ... but it could be done somewhere else
# [22:41] <timeless> ... it was done somewhere else
# [22:41] <timeless> ... hypothetically, it could be bound to another element
# [22:41] <timeless> ... there are other APIs under discussion, today and in the future
# [22:41] <timeless> ... where the WG does not necessarily have to do the work on the APIs
# [22:41] <timeless> ... the work could be done ... elsewhere ... in a more efficient way
# [22:41] <timeless> ... WebGL is an existence proof
# [22:42] <timeless> ... there was no coordination with khronos about WebGL
# [22:42] <timeless> ... and it seems to have worked out fairly well
# [22:42] <timeless> Josh_Soref: WebApps should have been more in that coordination
# [22:42] <timeless> MikeSmith: The spec defines HTML as having an implied Namespace
# [22:42] <timeless> ... new elements and attributes
# [22:42] <timeless> ... APIs, if they aren't tied to elements/attributes
# [22:42] <timeless> ... we have interfaces in DOM
# [22:43] <timeless> ... for HTML elements
# [22:43] <timeless> ... and they have to be somewhere
# [22:43] <MikeSmith> q?
# [22:43] * Zakim sees mjs, rubys on the speaker queue
# [22:43] <mjs> ack mjs
# [22:43] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [22:43] <timeless> ... but we have things that aren't as tightly bound
# [22:43] <timeless> mjs: it seems like there are two interesting dimensions to the charter
# [22:43] <timeless> ... we should mention both
# [22:43] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [22:43] <timeless> ... one is subject matter areas that the group can work on
# [22:44] <plh> q?
# [22:44] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [22:44] <timeless> ... charters are not totally care on whether they're minimum or maximum scope
# [22:44] <timeless> ... if not working on them, they're considered to have failed
# [22:44] <timeless> ... there's also a technological area of focus
# [22:44] <timeless> ... CSS WG
# [22:44] <timeless> ... most acknowledge that if you want to introduce a new CSS attribute
# [22:44] <timeless> ... you should do it in CSS WG, or in conjunction with CSS WG
# [22:44] <timeless> ... I don't know if the charter says so
# [22:45] <timeless> ... but for HTML
# [22:45] <timeless> ... it should probably say that you should probably talk to the HTML WG
# [22:45] <plh> q+
# [22:45] * Zakim sees rubys, plh on the speaker queue
# [22:45] <timeless> ... if you want an Element, Attribute, Value, or Parser Change
# [22:45] <timeless> ... I think the charter should cover both the low level functional domain
# [22:45] <timeless> ... as well as subject matter areas open to work
# [22:45] <timeless> ... the second for IPR review
# [22:46] <timeless> ... and member companies may not sign off if you don't make reasonably clear
# [22:46] <timeless> ... I agree with tantek 's concern about not predefining the solution for an area
# [22:46] <plh> ack rubys
# [22:46] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [22:46] <timeless> rubys: I agree we can make a stronger statement for parser changes
# [22:46] <timeless> ... new elements/attributes, different people will disagree
# [22:46] <timeless> ... anne made a point about Web Components
# [22:46] <timeless> ... parser changes should get HTML WG involved
# [22:46] <timeless> plh: i don't say parser is in scope of HTML WG
# [22:47] <timeless> ... but i'm uncomfortable about saying "no one else can work on parser"
# [22:47] <timeless> ... we assert rights by coordination
# [22:47] <timeless> rubys: can't you say as a positive statement "This is the group that defines the parser"
# [22:47] <timeless> paulc: and you can put in the Liason section, "This is the group of possible offenders"
# [22:47] <timeless> ... WebApps for Web Components
# [22:47] <timeless> ... PF for ARIA
# [22:48] <timeless> ... etc.
# [22:48] <timeless> ... I agree the upper part of charter should say "we own this backyard, and no one else comes here"
# [22:48] <timeless> plh: Canvas 2D additions
# [22:49] <timeless> ... i'm assuming no one will argue against doing those additions in the WG
# [22:49] <timeless> [ No objections ]
# [22:49] <timeless> plh: MikeSmith, the bugzilla component has other items
# [22:49] <timeless> MikeSmith: the list was proposals that were Markup features
# [22:49] * timeless MikeSmith 11693 ??
# [22:50] <MikeSmith> eh?
# [22:50] * timeless the summary is a URL
# [22:50] * timeless offhand is it ad-spam?
# [22:50] <timeless> paulc: should the charter say
# [22:50] <timeless> ... "items deferred from HTML5 including the following"
# [22:50] <timeless> ... you have more experience than anyone in the room
# [22:51] <timeless> ... i've only listed 9 or 10
# [22:51] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
# [22:51] <timeless> plh: in general, we try not to list
# [22:51] <timeless> paulc: it's not uncommon to have
# [22:51] <timeless> ... deliverables that are requirements for the next version
# [22:52] <timeless> plh: i'm under the impression the group would like more flexibility
# [22:52] <timeless> paulc: the extremes are "leave the trap door open
# [22:52] <timeless> ... causing IPR pain"
# [22:52] <timeless> ... or you close the trap door, and cause the
# [22:52] <timeless> ... -- Make the charter vague enough that you fail AC review
# [22:53] <timeless> ... -- Make an interim charter causing the WG to deliver a set of features
# [22:53] <timeless> ... put that out to get feedback and do an explicit revised charter
# [22:53] <timeless> plh: tantek would like to work on a <decompress> element
# [22:53] <timeless> [ Laughter ]
# [22:54] <timeless> chaals: where's the Line element?
# [22:54] <timeless> plh: Fullscreen is being taken care of
# [22:55] <timeless> paulc: does video enhancements
# [22:55] <timeless> ddorwin: next frame is squishy
# [22:55] <adrianba> q?
# [22:55] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [22:55] <adrianba> q+
# [22:55] * Zakim sees plh, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [22:56] <timeless> paulc: following mjs's request for a high level
# [22:56] <timeless> ... does this mean "additional forms functionality"?
# [22:56] <timeless> ... or "additional functionality based on existing language constructs"?
# [22:56] <timeless> ... tantek, don't throw your chair at me
# [22:56] * tantek_ looks for other more aerodynamic objects.
# [22:57] <timeless> ... something that says "new elements and attributes", but "extensions to the existing language"
# [22:57] <timeless> plh: looking at the existing charter
# [22:57] * Quits: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [22:57] <timeless> Josh_Soref: is there anything wrong with the current scope
# [22:57] <timeless> s/scope/scope?/
# [22:58] <anne> "classic HTML" really?
# [22:58] <timeless> ... there's a thing about workshops
# [22:58] <anne> that text is hilarious
# [22:58] <timeless> plh: in general, we don't do that normally for charters
# [22:58] <timeless> adrianba: I wanted to talk about 2.1
# [22:58] <timeless> ... this has things that are in scope
# [22:58] <timeless> ... it seems like a reasonable compromise
# [22:58] <timeless> ... maybe we can look at the other proposals
# [22:59] <timeless> plh: do you think the media items are within scope for the existing charter?
# [22:59] <timeless> adrianba: I've said before that i believe they are
# [22:59] <timeless> cyns: second bullet from the bottom seems to cover it
# [22:59] <timeless> plh: alright, if it's already in scope, we can already work on it as much as we want
# [22:59] <timeless> paulc: is there anything we want to throw away
# [22:59] <timeless> cyns: probably "evolved from html4"
# [22:59] <timeless> rubys: still a true statement
# [23:00] <timeless> Josh_Soref: do you want to move that thing about meetings?
# [23:00] <timeless> plh: we can move that to another section
# [23:00] <adrianba> q-
# [23:00] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [23:00] <timeless> paulc: there are 7 bullets there
# [23:00] <timeless> > A language evolved from HTML4 for describing the semantics of documents and applications on the World Wide Web. This will be a complete specification, not a delta specification.
# [23:00] <timeless> plh: HTML4 => HTML5
# [23:01] <timeless> ... maybe remove the second sentence
# [23:01] <timeless> ... i'd suggest to remove it
# [23:01] <timeless> mjs: +1
# [23:01] <timeless> adrianba: +1
# [23:01] <timeless> chaals: +1
# [23:01] <timeless> [ General agreement ]
# [23:01] <timeless> > An extensible, serialized form of such a language, using XML.
# [23:01] <timeless> plh: during Web Apps
# [23:01] <timeless> ... the Web Components will only be applicable to one syntax, HTML, not XHTML
# [23:02] <timeless> ... to be allowed to do this thing...
# [23:02] <timeless> paulc: is this particular bullet met and satisfied by the polyglot spec?
# [23:02] <timeless> plh: you need the xhtml syntax to do polyglot
# [23:02] <timeless> paulc: where is xhtml in our deliverables?
# [23:02] <timeless> plh: it's in section 9
# [23:03] <timeless> paulc: polyglot came in
# [23:03] <timeless> ... i'm wondering what words were in the original charter
# [23:03] <timeless> ... other than the director
# [23:03] <timeless> adrianba: > This group will maintain and produce incremental revisions to the HTML specification, which includes the series of specifications previously published as XHTML version 1. Both XML and 'classic HTML' syntaxes will be produced.
# [23:03] <timeless> chaals: what does this commit us to do
# [23:03] <timeless> ... and what does it except?
# [23:03] <timeless> plh: as is the case anyway
# [23:04] <timeless> chaals: here, it's reasonable to assume you can do html5 in xml
# [23:04] <timeless> ... we should make it clearer that you can't
# [23:04] <timeless> plh: that there are differences between the two syntaxes?
# [23:04] <timeless> chaals: yes
# [23:04] <timeless> ... there are semantic and capability differences
# [23:04] <timeless> > A serialized form of such a language using a defined, non-XML syntax compatible with the 'classic HTML' parsers of existing Web browsers.
# [23:04] <timeless> anne: why "classic"
# [23:04] <timeless> adrianba: that's why it's classic
# [23:04] <timeless> cyns: "classic is good"
# [23:05] <timeless> anne: "classic" seems alien
# [23:05] <timeless> chaals: "it sounds better than the moronist/crappy html"
# [23:05] <timeless> anne: or the TAG call it "tag soup"
# [23:05] <timeless> plh: i'm fine with s/'classic HTML'/HTML/
# [23:06] <timeless> paulc: do you get rid of 'existing' if you get rid of 'classic'?
# [23:06] * Quits: laura (laura@131.212.219.176) (Quit: laura)
# [23:06] <timeless> cyns: yes
# [23:06] <timeless> paulc: it seems to imply if you had a new browser that came along
# [23:06] <timeless> anne: HTML language with HTML an XHTML syntaxes
# [23:07] <timeless> chaals: it's in this charter, because it was a big shift from what we had
# [23:07] <timeless> ... but now we have it
# [23:07] <timeless> > Document Object Model (DOM) interfaces providing APIs for such a language.
# [23:07] <timeless> Josh_Soref: wasn't there a DOM WG?
# [23:07] <timeless> cyns: there was
# [23:07] <timeless> chaals: Web Apps took over DOM Core
# [23:07] <MikeSmith> "An abstract language for describing documents and applications, with HTML an XHTML syntaxes, and some APIs for interacting with in-memory representations of resources that use this language."
# [23:08] <timeless> ... the rest of DOM are belong to us
# [23:08] <timeless> cyns: there's a piece missing
# [23:08] <timeless> ... about how the UA maps DOM to existing OSs
# [23:08] <timeless> MikeSmith: does that need to be in the HTML WG?
# [23:08] <timeless> cyns: I'm not sure who else would do it
# [23:08] <timeless> ... we have overlap
# [23:08] <timeless> paulc: what's the deliverable
# [23:09] * anne http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22399865252
# [23:09] <timeless> cyns: a document mapping how HTML constructs map to Accessibility constructs in a variety of platforms
# [23:09] <plh> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/default/Overview.html
# [23:09] <timeless> paulc: you're saying the high level deliverables don't cover that deliverable
# [23:10] <timeless> s|http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/default/Overview.html|-> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/default/Overview.html HTML to Platform Accessibility APIs Implementation Guide|
# [23:10] <timeless> paulc: a specification mapping HTML elements and attributes to accessibility API Roles
# [23:11] <timeless> ... States and Properties on a variety of platforms
# [23:11] <timeless> ... that would let this document map to that requirement
# [23:11] <timeless> janina: this is important
# [23:11] <timeless> ... because there will be an HTML.next and an ARIA.next
# [23:11] <timeless> cyns: and the platforms are evolving
# [23:11] <timeless> > Forms and common UI widgets such as progress bars, datagrids, menus, and other controls.
# [23:11] <timeless> cyns: we need more of those
# [23:11] <timeless> ... i don't think those are the right ones
# [23:11] <timeless> rubys: the examples should be updated
# [23:12] * Joins: kennyluck (kennyluck@114.43.117.240)
# [23:12] <timeless> cyns: chaals is bored, he wants a soap opera to watch
# [23:12] <timeless> > APIs for the manipulation of linked media.
# [23:12] <timeless> > Editing APIs and user-driven WYSIWYG editing features.
# [23:12] <timeless> cyns: those still need work
# [23:12] <timeless> paulc: is there anything we want to add?
# [23:13] <timeless> ... in general, are the things we've talked about adequately covered by the evolving bullets we have here?
# [23:13] <timeless> cyns: which bullets covers canvas?
# [23:13] <timeless> plh: interesting point
# [23:13] <timeless> [ Uh ]
# [23:13] <timeless> mjs: Man, I never thought we'd get to have this conversation
# [23:13] * Quits: davidb (davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb)
# [23:14] <timeless> plh: maybe i should put some wording for the <canvas> element
# [23:14] <timeless> mjs: at some point there was an addition for canvas
# [23:14] <timeless> paulc: was that in a note to AC or in the charter?
# [23:15] <timeless> > Data and canvas are reasonable areas of work for the group. On the one hand, they elaborate areas touched on in HTML4. On the other hand, these elaborations are much deeper than the features of HTML4, but also they form separate subsystems, and these subsystems have strong overlaps with other design areas.
# [23:15] <timeless> plh: so, we should make sure microdata is in scope as well?
# [23:15] <timeless> paulc: update the bullets
# [23:15] <timeless> ... and then reverse engineer the bullets from the deliverables
# [23:15] <timeless> ... Accessibility Document
# [23:15] <timeless> ... Canvas
# [23:16] <timeless> ... Polyglot (covered, but obscurely)
# [23:16] <timeless> MikeSmith: why does Canvas 2d need to be in HTML WG
# [23:16] <timeless> ... where WebGL isn't?
# [23:16] <timeless> ... is it historical?
# [23:16] <timeless> ... assuming it's the right place is maybe not the right assumption
# [23:16] <timeless> plh: do you want to create another?
# [23:17] <timeless> ... anyone want to do it outside the WG?
# [23:17] <timeless> MikeSmith: alright, let's resolve then
# [23:17] <timeless> rubys: if someone actually proposed that
# [23:17] <timeless> ... i think we should consider it
# [23:18] * Joins: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [23:18] <timeless> paulc: are we done?
# [23:18] <timeless> plh: there was DOM Parsing and Serialization
# [23:18] <timeless> ISSUE-184?
# [23:18] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-184
# [23:18] <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
# [23:18] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
# [23:19] <timeless> ISSUE-198?
# [23:19] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-198
# [23:19] <trackbot> ISSUE-198 -- Ensure innerHTML and related APIs are subject to the W3C patent policy -- open
# [23:19] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/198
# [23:19] <timeless> rubys: ISSUE-198 failed for lack of an editor
# [23:19] <timeless> ... microsoft identified an editor
# [23:19] <timeless> ... it's now in scope of chairs
# [23:19] <timeless> ... proposal to change
# [23:19] <timeless> ... assumption in W3C
# [23:19] <timeless> ... this came up during web apps charter
# [23:20] <timeless> plh: it's in Web Apps charter atm
# [23:20] <timeless> chaals: that charter has been finished and approved
# [23:20] <timeless> ... does HTML want to fight us for it?
# [23:20] <timeless> paulc: i sent an email to the cochairs
# [23:20] <timeless> ... didn't this material come out of html spec?
# [23:20] <timeless> anne: yes
# [23:21] <timeless> paulc: straw man, doesn't it make sense to do it here, since it's from here?
# [23:21] <timeless> hober: a number of things have been spread out
# [23:21] <timeless> anne: html spec is too big
# [23:21] <timeless> ... and once spun out, it's also wrong
# [23:21] <timeless> mjs: there was an individual from ms who volunteered to do the work
# [23:22] <timeless> ... would he object to do it if it were a webapps deliverable instead of in html?
# [23:22] <timeless> paulc: we'll pass on your question
# [23:22] <timeless> rubys: shouldn't we get the editor's input?
# [23:22] <timeless> paulc: yes
# [23:22] <timeless> ... cochairs should discuss this
# [23:22] <timeless> ... given we have a volunteer to do the work
# [23:22] <timeless> ... and we'll get back to both WGs with a proposed solution
# [23:22] <timeless> plh: it's in scope of Web Apps
# [23:23] <timeless> paulc: that's a likely solution
# [23:23] <anne> (my "too big" was a quote)
# [23:23] <timeless> paulc: plh, on Apr 24
# [23:23] <timeless> ... you sent out a proposal to have a charter
# [23:24] <timeless> ... are you going to take our input today and go directly to AC?
# [23:24] <timeless> plh: no, i'd like to write a charter
# [23:24] <timeless> ... to ask MikeSmith to do it
# [23:24] <timeless> ... and circulate it to the WG
# [23:24] <timeless> paulc: can we have a time table for tha?
# [23:24] <timeless> s/tha/that/
# [23:24] <timeless> plh: MikeSmith ?
# [23:24] <timeless> MikeSmith: next month?
# [23:24] <timeless> chaals: the first or second?
# [23:24] <timeless> MikeSmith: not likely i can do it by the end of this month
# [23:25] <timeless> ACTION MikeSmith to draft revised HTML WG charter for May 31
# [23:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [23:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-212 - Draft revised HTML WG charter for May 31 [on Michael[tm] Smith - due 2012-05-11].
# [23:25] <MikeSmith> action-212 due May 312
# [23:25] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-212.
# [23:25] <trackbot> ACTION-212 Draft revised HTML WG charter for May 31 due date now May 312
# [23:25] <MikeSmith> action-212 due May 31
# [23:25] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-212.
# [23:25] <trackbot> ACTION-212 Draft revised HTML WG charter for May 31 due date now May 31
# [23:26] <timeless> paulc: plh, are we done?
# [23:26] <timeless> plh: i believe so
# [23:26] <timeless> [ Time check ]
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# [23:28] <timeless> [ Short Break ]
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# [23:36] <timeless> s/Short/Cookie/
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# [23:42] <timeless> paulc: sometimes the HTML WG doesn't have good notes from meetings
# [23:42] <timeless> ... i suspect this will be an exception
# [23:42] <timeless> ... on behalf of the HTML WG
# [23:43] <timeless> [ paulc presents a bottle of Red Wine to Josh_Soref, scribe ]
# [23:43] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [23:43] * Joins: janina (janina@205.248.100.252)
# [23:43] <timeless> Topic: ISSUE-204
# [23:43] <timeless> ISSUE-204?
# [23:43] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-204
# [23:43] <trackbot> ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open
# [23:43] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
# [23:43] <timeless> s/Topic: ISSUE-204/Topic: ISSUE-204 ARIA-Hidden/
# [23:43] <timeless> hober: there have been several proposals
# [23:44] <timeless> ... the major point of disagreement
# [23:44] <timeless> ... is whether or not
# [23:44] <timeless> ... the spec should mandate that the content of the individual
# [23:44] <timeless> ... element should be flattened in the Accessibility tree
# [23:44] <timeless> cyns: as far as i can tell
# [23:44] <timeless> ... the diff is hard to read
# [23:44] <timeless> ... you deleted almost the same things i deleted
# [23:44] <timeless> cyns: the options
# [23:44] <timeless> ... and we can go into which are feasible
# [23:44] <timeless> ... later
# [23:45] <timeless> ... aria-described-by/aria-labeled-by
# [23:45] <timeless> ... you could flatten it and do the name calculation
# [23:45] <timeless> ... which puts a strain
# [23:45] <timeless> ... or you could create a subtree
# [23:45] <timeless> ... out of what it's pointing to
# [23:45] <timeless> mjs: i think the other proposal doesn't specify how to do it
# [23:45] <timeless> ... which leaves it to the Aria implementer's guide
# [23:45] <timeless> hober: which avoids baking in flattening
# [23:46] <timeless> cyns: the reason flattening is called out explicitly
# [23:46] <timeless> ... what happens now for similar calculations
# [23:46] <timeless> ... is it goes into a string field
# [23:46] <timeless> ... with a certain length
# [23:46] <timeless> ... markup stripped out
# [23:46] <timeless> ... if what you point to is a complex marked up tree
# [23:46] <timeless> ... that's problematic
# [23:46] <timeless> ... but sometimes what's in there is text
# [23:46] <timeless> ... and it works well enough
# [23:46] <timeless> ... what i tried to do in my proposal
# [23:46] <timeless> ... is make clear that's how the api works
# [23:46] <timeless> ... and how it fits into the api strucutre
# [23:47] <timeless> s/strucutre/structure
# [23:47] <timeless> ... and make it clear to authors what you want in there
# [23:47] <timeless> mjs: are you saying Aria spec requires it
# [23:47] <timeless> ... or all implementations do it
# [23:47] <timeless> ... or it's fundamentally impossible to do
# [23:47] <timeless> cyns: 1 and 2 yes
# [23:47] <timeless> ... not sure about 3
# [23:47] <timeless> mjs: 3 i know it's false
# [23:47] <timeless> hober: good to know
# [23:48] <timeless> mjs: anything in dom, it's possible to expose with full semantics
# [23:48] <JF> Q+
# [23:48] * Zakim sees plh, JF on the speaker queue
# [23:48] <timeless> ... it's possible to put into the accessibility tree
# [23:48] <timeless> cyns: it seems like a very
# [23:48] <timeless> ... i agree it's technically possible
# [23:48] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98) (Client exited)
# [23:48] <timeless> ... it seems a strange implementation
# [23:48] <timeless> hober: my understanding is that the accessibility tree is based on the content of the render tree
# [23:48] <timeless> ... but we don't create things for elements that aren't displayed
# [23:49] <timeless> cyns: i don't think we do that for native applications
# [23:49] <timeless> ... i don't think we do that for nodes not part of the ui
# [23:49] <timeless> ... it isn't how UIA works
# [23:49] <timeless> ... it seems strange from how ATs
# [23:49] <timeless> ... and how users are used to things
# [23:49] <timeless> ... what we do now with similar constructs is "you may grab text"
# [23:49] <timeless> ... or you may do nothing
# [23:49] <timeless> hober: for us, we may grab text
# [23:49] <timeless> cyns: what does VoiceOver do with that
# [23:50] <timeless> ... is it similiar with that
# [23:50] <timeless> mjs: we don't have anything like that
# [23:50] <timeless> ... but it could work like:
# [23:50] <timeless> ... when you're on an element
# [23:50] <timeless> ... it could work the same way as if it were directly
# [23:50] <timeless> ... whether content was visible to sighted users or not
# [23:50] <timeless> ... often we're faced with content that's offscreen
# [23:51] <timeless> cyns: you have offscreen content?
# [23:51] <timeless> Josh_Soref: "skip to content" is offscreen
# [23:51] <timeless> JF: the more complex the tabable offscreen element is
# [23:51] <timeless> ... if you tab through offscreen elements
# [23:51] <timeless> ... it's a horrible UE
# [23:51] <timeless> s/UE/UX/
# [23:51] <timeless> mjs: when I mean keyboard navigation
# [23:51] <timeless> ... i do not mean tab navigation
# [23:52] <timeless> ... VoiceOver has special navigation
# [23:52] * Joins: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98)
# [23:52] <timeless> ... for character by character
# [23:52] <timeless> ... word by word
# [23:52] <timeless> ... etc
# [23:52] <timeless> ... when VoiceOver does this
# [23:52] <timeless> ... it has a box so sighted users can see what the user is hearing
# [23:52] <timeless> ... it's possible to structure stuff so it's visible on screen
# [23:52] <timeless> ... i agree focusable controls may be a separate issue
# [23:53] <timeless> ... tables, rope commands
# [23:53] <timeless> ... may be doable
# [23:53] <timeless> ... i'm not claiming we have it implemented now
# [23:53] <timeless> ... but based on my understanding of what we have
# [23:53] <timeless> ... i'd be sad if we couldn't do this
# [23:53] <cyns> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Correct_Hidden_Attribute_Section_v2
# [23:54] <timeless> s|http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Correct_Hidden_Attribute_Section_v2|-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Correct_Hidden_Attribute_Section_v2 Correct Hidden Attribute Section v2|
# [23:54] <timeless> > User agents should not create accessible objects in the platform accessibility API tree for elements that have the hidden attribute specified.
# [23:54] <timeless> mjs: what's the justification around SHOULD NOT
# [23:54] <timeless> cyns: I don't know how to create a reasonable UI
# [23:54] <timeless> mjs: for tables
# [23:54] <timeless> ... what's the reason not to?
# [23:54] <timeless> cyns: it doesn't fit with how things work now
# [23:55] <timeless> ... it's a documenting how things work now
# [23:55] <timeless> mjs: documenting is ok
# [23:55] <timeless> ... as a warning
# [23:55] <timeless> ... but a 'should'
# [23:55] <timeless> cyns: it was focusable elements
# [23:55] <timeless> paulc: "SHOULD NOT" means "you shouldn't do it unless you have a good reason"
# [23:55] <timeless> rubys: can you flip it to
# [23:55] <timeless> ... "Authors should not presume"
# [23:55] <timeless> cyns: maybe we could make it tighter
# [23:56] <timeless> ... I'm not sure how to build the tree in UIA
# [23:56] <timeless> mjs: i'm not sure
# [23:56] <timeless> ... i could see how it's fair to create a warning to authors
# [23:56] <timeless> ... that requires to be understandable
# [23:56] <timeless> ... users have to understand the scemantics
# [23:56] <timeless> cyns: i think we may want to be more careful with focusable elements
# [23:56] <timeless> hober: if a couple years from now
# [23:57] <timeless> ... they did think of a good way to do it
# [23:57] <timeless> cyns: i could see that
# [23:57] <timeless> ... but i'm worried that people would think that's a good idea
# [23:57] <timeless> ... there's a worry that people spend all their time
# [23:57] <timeless> ... thinking about visual readers
# [23:57] <timeless> ... putting things offscreen as a good thing for accessibility
# [23:57] <timeless> ... is an antipattern
# [23:57] <timeless> mjs: how do you handle offscreen?
# [23:57] <timeless> cyns: keyboard focus goes offscreen
# [23:58] <timeless> ... if i find that on a microsoft site, i try to shop it from shipping
# [23:58] <timeless> mjs: it seems that if a user tabs to something offscreen
# [23:58] <timeless> ... you should temporarily show it
# [23:58] <timeless> ... if a UA can give a better experience
# [23:58] <timeless> ... i think they should be encouraged to try
# [23:58] <timeless> ... i can see the argument for not encouraging authors to try
# [23:58] <timeless> ... while they do not exist
# [23:58] <timeless> cyns: would you be comfortable with a
# [23:59] <timeless> ... "browsers may flatten, they may create a subtree"
# [23:59] <timeless> mjs: by may, that'd be fine
# [23:59] <timeless> cyns: I meant MAY
# [23:59] <timeless> mjs: it seems that should be in the aria-implementers-guide
# [23:59] <timeless> ... it seems weird to be in the html spec
# [23:59] <timeless> cyns: so if we shortened this significantly
# [23:59] <timeless> ... so hidden was exempted from
# [23:59] <timeless> ... aria-described|labeled-by
# Session Close: Sat May 05 00:00:00 2012

The end :)