/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2012-11-01 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Nov 01 00:00:01 2012
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:05] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 1 new commit to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/ec5dd89bfb2afdf101d6367426cb9adcbd3aca20
# [00:05] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg ec5dd89 ianh: [giow] (3) Be more strict about what <script type=''> handling should look like....
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# [01:05] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 2 new commits to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/ec5dd89bfb2a...fcca364e971a
# [01:05] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg 17cedfa ianh: [giow] (1) Prevent a race condition between <video onerror> and <body onload>...
# [01:05] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg fcca364 ianh: [e] (0) Clarify that 'directionality' applies to all elements....
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# [02:05] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 1 new commit to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/42cafdc36c72315f8ecfc802d6c6b0100c22c38f
# [02:05] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg 42cafdc ianh: [e] (0) Match Selectors terminology better...
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# [08:42] <paulc> zakim, what is the code?
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# [08:43] <paulc> zakim, what is the code?
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# [08:45] <paulc> F2F agenda topics: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2012#Topics
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# [08:54] <adrianba> zakim, this is HTML_WG
# [08:54] <Zakim> "HTML_WG" matches HTML_WG()4:00AM, and HTML_WG(HTML2)4:00AM, adrianba
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# [08:55] <paulc> zakim, call rhone_3
# [08:55] <Zakim> sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is
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# [08:55] <krisk> what conference is this?
# [08:55] <adrianba> zakim, this is HTML_WG()
# [08:55] <Zakim> adrianba, I see HTML_WG()4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be HTML_WG()".
# [08:55] <matt> zakim, this will be html_wg()
# [08:55] <Zakim> ok, matt; I see HTML_WG()4:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
# [08:55] <matt> zakim, call rhone_3
# [08:55] <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
# [08:55] <Zakim> HTML_WG()4:00AM has now started
# [08:55] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
# [08:56] <Zakim> -Rhone_3
# [08:56] <Zakim> HTML_WG()4:00AM has ended
# [08:56] <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3
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# [08:56] <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [08:56] <matt> zakim, call rhone_3
# [08:56] <Zakim> apparently HTML_WG()4:00AM has ended, matt
# [08:56] <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
# [08:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see Cyril, MikeSmith, tantek, Takahiro, Shinji, Magnus_Olsson, matt, sakkuru, rubys, glenn, dsinger, a12u, krisk, Zakim, adrianba, paulc, acolwell, pal, markw__, ddorwin,
# [08:56] <Zakim> ... Joshue108, cabanier, MartinSoukup, dveditz, icaaq, hao_, silvia
# [08:56] <Zakim> HTML_WG()4:00AM has now started
# [08:56] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
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# [08:58] <Arnaud> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
# [08:58] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
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# [09:00] <krisk> present+ kris_krueger
# [09:00] <krisk> who os here?
# [09:00] <krisk> who is here?
# [09:00] <plh> present+ Philippe Le Hegaret
# [09:00] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
# [09:00] * matt it's 'zakim, who is here?'
# [09:00] <krisk> zakim, who is here
# [09:00] <Zakim> krisk, you need to end that query with '?'
# [09:00] <krisk> zakim, who is here?
# [09:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3, Cynthia_Shelly
# [09:00] <Zakim> On IRC I see darobin, Yune, Arnaud, edoyle, giuseppe, plh, Cyril, MikeSmith, tantek, Takahiro, Shinji, Magnus_Olsson, matt, sakkuru, rubys, glenn, dsinger, a12u, krisk, Zakim,
# [09:00] <Zakim> ... adrianba, paulc, acolwell, pal, markw__, ddorwin, Joshue108, cabanier
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# [09:01] <krisk> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2012
# [09:01] <krisk> is the link to the wiki for Face to Face topics
# [09:01] * plh rrsagent, generate minutes
# [09:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html plh
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# [09:01] <plh> Meeting: HTML
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# [09:01] <edoyle> present+ Erika_Doyle_Navara
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# [09:03] <plh> Chair: Paul
# [09:03] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [09:03] * Zakim sees on the phone: Rhone_3, Cynthia_Shelly
# [09:03] <plh> regrets+ Sam
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# [09:04] * rubys waves
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# [09:04] <plh> regrets- Sam
# [09:04] * plh waves back to Sam :)
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# [09:05] * plh changes topic to 'HTML f2f - Rhone 3'
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# [09:07] <matt> Present+ Matt
# [09:07] <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk__Lee
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# [09:08] <matt> scribe: Matt
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# [09:09] <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2012#Topics HTML Topics wiki
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# [09:10] <matt> paulc: Let's scan down the wiki, see what's on the list of topics.
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# [09:11] <matt> paulc: We're in Rhone 3. We also have Rhone 2. We'll see if we need it. We've arranged a separate IRC channel and call-in number for rhone 2.
# [09:11] <matt> paulc: At the end of this session, I'd like to have all the TBDs filled in.
# [09:12] <matt> paulc: I'm not sure if anyone other than Cynthia would like to join, but let's get this updated.
# [09:12] <matt> paulc: I'd like to see the minutes posted on the wiki from the sessions.
# [09:12] <matt> paulc: Coffee breaks are 10:30-11:30, so we'll break at 11. We could break earlier.
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# [09:13] <matt> paulc: And 3-4 in the afternoon. We'll have to decide when we look at the agenda how long each of the two days go.
# [09:13] <matt> paulc: Break 3:30 and then a 90 minute session until 6:00.
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# [09:15] <matt> paulc: Topics: Email list organization, several bugs, four tracker requests, alt guidance and alt text, multilingual web group coordination (I talked to Felix and suggested tomorrow morning 9-9:30), i18n (30m slot next to multilingual if possible)
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# [09:15] <matt> paulc: Review of outstanding bugs for i18n
# [09:15] <matt> darobin: We do have a few bugs left, have to discuss them and move forward.
# [09:15] <matt> paulc: Please get the bug numbers and update them in the wiki.
# [09:16] * matt coffee not available until 10:30… so we're blocked on that.
# [09:16] * hober matt: indeed.
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# [09:17] <matt> paulc: Media task force has been meeting on alternating Tuesdays. Encrypted Media Extension and the Media Source Extensions. Both have come with a detailed list of bugs on these proposals. The WG hasn't approved the proposals as FPWDs, but the plan would be to make as much progress as possible to flatten many of these bugs and get closer to a FPWD.
# [09:17] <matt> plh: I'd like to know the timeline for EME and MSE.
# [09:17] <matt> paulc: The WG needs to be rechartered and Plan 2014 has a timeline for 5.1 and 5.2, but if the charter could give a proposed timeline for EME and MSE, that would make the charter that much more complete when it goes to the AC.
# [09:18] <matt> [[+1 to discussing timeline for EME and MSE]]
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# [09:18] <matt> paulc: Responsive image extension specs, this has been requested for day 1. There are people here for that that won't be here tomorrow.
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# [09:18] <matt> paulc: The EME and MSE would take up most of the afternoon, so there might be a natural ordering here.
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# [09:19] <matt> paulc: Evolving AppCache discussions in WebApps. They've suggested they might want to take over that work.
# [09:19] <matt> paulc: Maincontent element extension spec.
# [09:19] <matt> paulc: Completing ISSUE-204?
# [09:20] <cjones> cjones - present
# [09:20] <matt> ??: @@bugs@@
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# [09:20] * matt please identify yourself when talking, missed it trying to get a name :)
# [09:20] <hober> s/??/hober/
# [09:20] <matt> paulc: Next item is working group status. I sent the report that mjs, sruby, plh and I worked on for the AC.
# [09:20] <hober> s/@@bugs@@/there are several interrelated bugs on the hidden="" section, which we'll probably address all at once/
# [09:20] <matt> paulc: Could look at that and discuss what would happen in the draft charter. I don't expect this item to be big.
# [09:21] * matt thanks hover!
# [09:21] * matt grrr, autocorrect
# [09:21] <matt> paulc: Preparing for CR, already sent a draft to Director.
# [09:21] <matt> paulc: Features at Risk, go over them, determine consensus amongst people in the room that we have the list correct or if there are items missing.
# [09:21] <matt> paulc: We already have consensus on the CR exit criteria.
# [09:22] <matt> paulc: Status of the CR WDs, will we see them before this meeting is over?
# [09:22] <matt> darobin: We do have CR drafts, have some changes like exit date and get them checked by people.
# [09:22] <matt> paulc: Chairs want to get to CR as quickly as possible. plh has a sharp stick in our ribs.
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# [09:23] <matt> paulc: Want to discuss these topics and know how quickly and when we can do a call for consensus on two remaining items to get to CR: items at risk and ??.
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# [09:23] <matt> paulc: There's an item on HTML 5.1 planning, with proposed new elements
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# [09:23] <matt> MikeSmith: I've got a list that needs updating.
# [09:23] <matt> paulc: And then the status of the 5.1 WDs. We'll want editors drafts started at least after CR. And we need to discuss FPWD schedule for 5.1
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# [09:23] <matt> paulc: Any additions to the list?
# [09:24] <matt> MichaelC: I added to the wiki HTML 5 accessibility techniques. If anyone is interested in joining the Task Force, let me know.
# [09:24] <matt> paulc: Any other topics?
# [09:24] <matt> paulc: None.
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# [09:26] <matt> paulc: Proposal 1: I've already seen interest in the media stuff.
# [09:26] <matt> matt: There's also the people from the Web and TV IG who are interested and not here (at AC, or not interested in rest of agenda).
# [09:26] <matt> paulc: Let's do that in the afternoon then in two slots.
# [09:27] <matt> paulc: Break from 10:30 to 11. Lunch is at 12:30-2.
# [09:27] <matt> paulc: 2-3:30 then break from 3:30 until 4.
# [09:27] <matt> paulc: And the last session is from 4 until 5:30 plus or minus.
# [09:28] <matt> paulc: Media folks, which session will be longer? EME or MSE?
# [09:28] * darobin has loaded up the i18n bugs into the wiki
# [09:28] <matt> adrianba: I suspect we have enough things to fill both of them, but I don't imagine we'll get through everything.
# [09:28] <matt> paulc: We can put them in any order then.
# [09:29] <matt> paulc: I believe everyone involved in these would like to meet tomorrow to take the results of this meeting and move the specs along.
# [09:29] <matt> paulc: We have two requests to meet tomorrow morning: multilingual web at 9 and i18n at 9:30.
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# [09:30] <matt> paulc: The responsive images folks had a request for today. I suggest we do that after coffee this morning.
# [09:31] <matt> paulc: I believe our CR discussion is important.
# [09:31] <matt> paulc: Let's do that tomorrow.
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# [09:31] <matt> matt: Friday afternoon people start leaving.
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# [09:32] <matt> paulc: Everyone put up their hand if here at noon, 3, 4… looks pretty good for the afternoon for quorum.
# [09:32] * matt wonders if it makes sense to have someone sit in at the table in the middle and run the mic for paul
# [09:32] <matt> paulc: Is that sixty minutes to do CR plh?
# [09:32] <matt> plh: Including features at risk? More than 60 minutes.
# [09:33] * matt let me rephrase that: anyone want to volunteer to run the mic for paul?
# [09:33] <matt> paulc: What about testing?
# [09:33] <matt> paulc: It'd be good to have a report on testing.
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# [09:34] * darobin and github!
# [09:34] <matt> Chris: There's been talk about the repository and combining it all together. Another item on how to publish test results, that's part of the 2014 Plan.
# [09:34] <matt> paulc: Less than an hour?
# [09:34] <matt> Chris: An hour is a safe bet.
# [09:34] <matt> paulc: Let's put status item along with CR item together.
# [09:34] <matt> paulc: And we should talk about schedule for EME and MSE in that session so we can say tomorrow the schedule.
# [09:35] <matt> paulc: What else is really important to get on the agenda?
# [09:35] <matt> Josh: The accessibility task force is meeting upstairs, please get in touch with me if you want to get involved.
# [09:35] <matt> paulc: Looking to the floor for nominations of the next important item.
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# [09:36] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [09:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [09:36] <matt> adrianba: I don't think it'll be a long discussion, but the future of AppCache.
# [09:36] <matt> paulc: Art? Do you have restrictions on being here?
# [09:36] <matt> ArtB: I might be here tomorrow morning for a few hours.
# [09:36] <matt> paulc: 30 minute slot tomorrow morning for AppCache does that work?
# [09:36] <matt> adrianba: Works.
# [09:37] <matt> ??: HTTP request generation and enhancement. It'd be good to discuss with browser vendors in the room and get ext spec written with normative requirements.
# [09:37] <matt> s/??/Cameron/
# [09:37] <matt> paulc: Cameron, you won't be here tomorrow afternoon, so let's see what we have.
# [09:38] <matt> paulc: Let's look at the 2nd day in the morning.
# [09:38] * Quits: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:38] <matt> ArtB: I'm not sure I'm critical path for the AppCache discussion
# [09:38] <matt> henri?: We need a lot of time for that.
# [09:39] <matt> paulc: There may be a lot of overlap, but this group needs to express it's opinion.
# [09:39] <matt> mjs: We should survey this room to see if we need to have a longer session at all.
# [09:39] <matt> paulc: Let's do AppCache immediately after coffee and put ISSUE-195 into this slot.
# [09:39] * matt really? no one wants to run the mic for Paul?
# [09:40] <matt> cameron: Let's recap on the AppCache thing too.
# [09:40] <matt> s/after coffee/before coffee/
# [09:40] <matt> paulc: That'll open the slot in the main room for Cameron.
# [09:40] <matt> paulc: Nominees for other important items? We still haven't put testing anywhere?
# [09:40] <matt> Chris: Can we do that tomorrow?
# [09:41] <matt> paulc: OK, large room? So far we've been surviving with the one large room. Should we squeeze the agenda to keep us in one room?
# [09:41] <matt> MikeSmith: Best to have everyone in the same room if we can.
# [09:41] <matt> paulc: Testing for an hour in the 14:00-15:00 slot tomorrow.
# [09:42] <matt> paulc: Lots of bugs in the wiki and ISSUE-204 as well. Anyone in the room want to nominate a particular item off the wiki to fill in the remaining slots?
# [09:42] <matt> Cameron: Two bugs about client-side localization are important for HTML 5 and I think there's a misunderstanding about the use of language tags and they are in spec for HTML5, and well, the whole issue of client-side localization is moving forward and it'd be good to discuss that.
# [09:43] <matt> paulc: Could we collapse that into that session?
# [09:43] <matt> Cameron: Yes.
# [09:43] <matt> paulc: Let's add these two bugs to that session.
# [09:43] * Joins: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak)
# [09:43] <matt> r12a: We have a few other bugs besides that, and about 15 minutes for the item I want to present at 10. It's getting a little full.
# [09:43] <matt> paulc: How many bugs?
# [09:43] <matt> r12a: 16 bugs.
# [09:44] <matt> r12a: Not sure we'll go through all of those.
# [09:44] <matt> darobin: Some may be quick.
# [09:44] <matt> paulc: Can someone send a list of those bugs to public-html before that session?
# [09:44] <matt> darobin: They're on the wiki.
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# [09:44] <matt> paulc: The status of these are all bugs in the 130 post LC process?
# [09:44] <matt> darobin: Unless I missed it, yes.
# [09:45] <matt> paulc: The editor's since July/August have been working on the post-LC bug queue, those that came after the LC date ended. There were 490 of those bugs. Dropped to 460/450 after spam. The editorial team has been attacking that bug list as aggressively as possible.
# [09:45] <matt> paulc: Now it's about 130.
# [09:45] <plh> --> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=HTML+WG&component=HTML5+spec&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&longdesc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bug_id_type=anyexact&bug_id
# [09:45] <plh> =&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0= 136 bugs
# [09:45] <matt> paulc: 136 outstanding bugs. That's a living list.
# [09:46] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [09:46] * Joins: ddorwin1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [09:46] <matt> -> http://w3.org/brief/Mjk1 bug list
# [09:47] <matt> paulc: We need more time tomorrow morning. Let's free up half an hour off responsive images and make it 11-12 and 12-12:30 do Cameron's item
# [09:47] <matt> paulc: No objections in the room.
# [09:47] <matt> ISSUE-195?
# [09:47] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-195
# [09:47] <trackbot> ISSUE-195 -- Enhance http request generation from forms -- open
# [09:47] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/195
# [09:47] <matt> paulc: Nomination for last two slots on Friday afternoon?
# [09:48] <matt> paulc: We have a bunch of FPWD requests and accessibility items.
# [09:48] <matt> plh: ???
# [09:48] * Quits: ddorwin (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:48] <matt> paulc: That's a media issue.
# [09:48] <matt> paulc: One of the media groups, can't remember which --
# [09:48] <matt> ??: MSE
# [09:48] <matt> paulc: MSE were scratching their heads on how IDs work in the video and audio elements. They filed bugs on the main spec.
# [09:48] <Cyril> s/???/what about the bug 18971 Text track should have an id/
# [09:49] <matt> paulc: And they have more dependent on that bug. Let's have a session of miscellaneous bugs and put the most popular ones in that session.
# [09:49] <matt> plh: When?
# [09:49] <matt> paulc: Friday afternoon.
# [09:49] <matt> ??: I don't expect the discussion to take long on track ID, maybe ten minutes.
# [09:49] <matt> plh: What about XML stylesheet?
# [09:49] <Cyril> s/??/acolwell/
# [09:50] <matt> ??: Use first of five or ten minutes of MSE session that bug.
# [09:50] <matt> paulc: That's a good way to handle it.
# [09:50] <Cyril> s/??/acolwell/
# [09:50] * matt thanks Cyril
# [09:50] <matt> paulc: Let's put 14689 and ISSUE-204 in there.
# [09:51] <matt> paulc: I want ISSUE-204 to have discussion as we've taken it off the list of formal objections.
# [09:51] <matt> darobin: There's also the XML stylesheet thing from XML core. Probably requires 5-10 minutes.
# [09:51] <matt> paulc: Ted, ISSUE-204, is 10-15 good?
# [09:51] <matt> Ted: Yes.
# [09:52] <matt> paulc: Put ten minutes into ISSUE-204 --
# [09:52] <matt> plh: Can we do that before preparing for CR?
# [09:52] <matt> paulc: All the formal objections have been withdrawn. I just want to ensure they don't reappar.
# [09:52] <matt> paulc: Tracker requests, put it under misc bugs.
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# [09:53] <matt> -> http://intertwingly.net/tmp/wgstatus.html#tracker-requests Tracker Requests
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# [09:53] <matt> paulc: These are bugs that the filer has disagreed with the disposition. They're all post-LC bugs that have been unresolved.
# [09:53] <matt> mjs: There are still 4 tracker requests
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# [09:54] <matt> mjs: The bugs might align with other topics, such as add an adaptive image element.
# [09:54] <matt> mjs: The bug is someone objecting to the extension spec approach. Maybe we should combine that with the responsive images discussion.
# [09:54] <matt> mjs: It's bug 18384.
# [09:54] <hober> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18384
# [09:54] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18384 Add an adaptive image mechanism
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# [09:55] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [09:55] <matt> glen: ?? scoped stylesheets??
# [09:55] <adrianba> i/scribe: Matt/Topic: Organization/
# [09:55] <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
# [09:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
# [09:55] <matt> mjs: I think we're waiting for a bug to specifically identify the bug and hopefully the editor's will resolve it to their satisfaction. The previous bug didn't seem to address CSS-WGs latest concerns about scoped stylesheets.
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# [09:56] <matt> paulc: mjs and I went to the CSSWG meeting (pre-coffee!!!) and there was some concern about some features in HTML 5 that at CR would be inadequately specced. One was scoped stylesheets and another maybe?
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# [09:57] <matt> mjs: There was some discussion of pseudo-class elements, but we agreed that wasn't an issue and I believe scoped stylesheets are the only concern. And the scoped stylesheets discussion was still being discussed as being at risk or not.
# [09:57] * Quits: JonasJacek (~JonasJacek@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:57] <matt> paulc: If you remove features from your CR you can't go to PR without doing another LCWD. But, if you identify features at risk, don't achieve interop on those features, you can go to PR.
# [09:57] <matt> paulc: There is some danger of not getting the features at risk done.
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# [09:58] <matt> paulc: If we mark it at risk the CSS WG might be okay with that.
# [09:58] <matt> plh: I believe so.
# [09:58] <matt> paulc: Looking at the other tracker requests, one was a feature request for a better drag and drop model.
# [09:58] <matt> s/paulc/mjs/
# [09:58] <matt> mjs: That might be interesting for the next HTML.
# [09:59] <matt> paulc: Tobie Langel wants to complain about the current drag and drop model and he asked for time on it. But he didn't update the wiki.
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# [09:59] <matt> paulc: We added the item to the list. Should we keep 4:30-5 for overflow?
# [09:59] <matt> paulc: Can we put 5.1 planning under CR?
# [09:59] <matt> plh: Sure.
# [10:00] <matt> paulc: Let's do that. darobin and the poor editorial team, we ask for heartbeats and CR drafts and now 5.1 drafts.
# [10:00] <matt> darobin: XML Core confirmed to show for stylesheet discussion.
# [10:00] * hober matt: it's Stevef
# [10:01] <matt> Steve_Faulkner: These last two items: alt guidance is important and maincontent element is just a five minute thing.
# [10:01] * matt thanks hover!
# [10:01] * matt grrrrrrr, autocorrect.
# [10:01] * matt thanks hoBer.
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# [10:01] * hober really needs to work on his levitation skills
# [10:01] <matt> paulc: Put those in the last slot, categorize as FPWD request.
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# [10:02] <matt> SteveF: Are the appropriate people going to be around for the alt-guidance stuff going to be around?
# [10:02] <matt> Cynthia: I'll be there late Friday.
# [10:02] <matt> paulc: Let's try to get Michael available. Are the editor's going to be leaving before the last slot?
# [10:02] <matt> paulc: All editors will be here.
# [10:03] * matt really happy to see people staying for all of Friday afternoon. That rarely happens in my WGs :/
# [10:03] <matt> paulc: We might have to overflow into the last session.
# [10:03] * darobin awww, poor matt
# [10:03] <matt> paulc: Looks like everyone wants to stay in this room for everything.
# [10:03] * darobin it's because this group is so much about love!
# [10:03] * matt It's kind of nice if you just want to jam something through without much discussion :)
# [10:04] <matt> ArtB: I just got pinged that I have to go to the AC meeting, can we do the AppCache thing real quick?
# [10:04] * darobin just understood why device orientation turned out the way it is :)
# [10:04] * matt hey now!
# [10:04] * matt low blow.
# [10:04] <matt> Topic: Evolving AppCache
# [10:04] <ArtB> http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/Papers.html
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# [10:05] * hober notes that http://www.w3.org/2011/web-apps-ws/report 404s
# [10:05] <darobin> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache
# [10:05] <darobin> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/appcache-london
# [10:06] * darobin hober: I think that no one ever wrote the final report...
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# [10:06] * matt missed all of this setting up display.
# [10:07] <matt> ArtB: 8 said WebApps WG, 1 said (darobin) HTML and another had strong preference for a coordination group.
# [10:07] <matt> ArtB: I sent a mail summarizing what I just said.
# [10:07] * matt link?
# [10:07] * darobin oh shit, I hadn't noticed
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# [10:07] <ArtB> WebApps' minutes: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webapps-minutes.html#item06
# [10:07] <matt> paulc: For historical purposes: the HTML WG has devolved itself of some responsibilities in the past. mjs or adrianba have a view of what ArtB just said?
# [10:07] <tomoyuki> s/coordination group/community group/
# [10:07] <darobin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Oct/0194.html -> Art's email
# [10:08] <matt> paulc: Anyone in HTML reject Art's request on giving the responsibility of AppCache to WebApps?
# [10:08] <matt> paulc: No objections.
# [10:08] <plh> Present+ Art_Barstow
# [10:08] <matt> darobin: If it moves to WebApps I would like to know if we should pull it from the spec and if WebApps wants to do a delta-spec?
# [10:08] <matt> paulc: Delta-spec meaning extension?
# [10:09] <matt> darobin: There are multiple options: fix it by monkey-patching it or remove it from HTML5 and let WebApps sort it out.
# [10:09] <mjs> q+
# [10:09] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [10:09] <matt> paulc: Which spec? Marking it at risk in the CR or removing it from the CR?
# [10:09] <matt> darobin: Removing it in this case.
# [10:09] <plh> q+
# [10:09] * Zakim sees mjs, plh on the speaker queue
# [10:09] <plh> q+ Art
# [10:09] * Zakim sees mjs, plh, Art on the speaker queue
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# [10:09] <matt> mjs: Speaking as an implementer, I'd prefer not to remove it from the spec as it has multiple interoperable impls and has content already. It'd do a disservice for it to remove it.
# [10:10] <matt> mjs: Extensions don't have to just be patches or deltas, but can completely replace parts of the spec.
# [10:10] <plh> q+ James
# [10:10] * Zakim sees mjs, plh, Art, James on the speaker queue
# [10:10] * matt we should be careful as delta-spec has a specific meaning in w3c.
# [10:10] <mjs> ack mjs
# [10:10] * Zakim sees plh, Art, James on the speaker queue
# [10:10] <matt> mjs: Dropping it does a disservice to everyone.
# [10:10] * darobin saying your spec replaces a section *is* monkey patching :) not that it's necessarily wrong
# [10:11] <matt> adrianba: A few comments: 1. the way that AppCache is embedded in the spec in multiple places and is hard to remove, which is a problem as we missed some of the pieces of AppCache as it was in places we didn't expect. 2. During the discussions that I've seen minutes of with...
# [10:12] <matt> adrianba: various different people proposing fixing AppCache there's a general consensus that the current implementations of what's in the spec, and that there's content out there, we should make sure to extend or enhance it so that existing content still works. It needs to stay somewhere.
# [10:12] <plh> ack plh
# [10:12] * Zakim sees Art, James on the speaker queue
# [10:12] <matt> plh: Since we don't have another specification we shouldn't remove it, but mark it at risk I am okay with that.
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# [10:12] <plh> ack Art
# [10:12] * Zakim sees James on the speaker queue
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# [10:12] <matt> ArtB: I agree with plh. Leave in, mark at risk. I'll push the WG for someone to start the real work.
# [10:12] <matt> q?
# [10:12] * Zakim sees James on the speaker queue
# [10:13] <plh> ack James
# [10:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:13] <matt> James: Inevitably AppCache is an inherent part of the doc loading process and so I don't object to us moving it out, but if we do it in a separate spec we need to coordinate strongly with it to have hooks.
# [10:14] <matt> paulc: I didn't hear objection to moving AppCache to WebApps, but did hear objections to removing it from our doc. Also heard people supporting marking it at as a Feature at Risk.
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# [10:14] <matt> paulc: And if the WebApps WG can move so quickly that it could satisfy us for CR and didn't break existing content perhaps, that by the time we exit CR we could remove it and point as James just said to a spec that would be invoked during the document loading process.
# [10:14] * matt I hope we don't invoke specs during doc load :)
# [10:15] <adrianba> q+
# [10:15] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
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# [10:15] <matt> paulc: ArtB when we generate our minutes, I'll do what you did: respond to your email with decision of HTML WG and then it sounds like it's something we need to coordinate at the progress level so we know what progress your group is making.
# [10:15] <MikeSmith> q?
# [10:15] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [10:15] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [10:15] <matt> adrianba: Quick question: ArtB do you believe it is necessary for WebApps to recharter for this work?
# [10:16] <matt> ArtB: plh asked that same question. I'd have to look at the charter, but my guess would be yes.
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# [10:16] <matt> euro: Yes.
# [10:16] <matt> paulc: Break time early!
# [10:16] <matt> paulc: Who will volunteer to scribe for the next session?
# [10:16] <adrianba> q-
# [10:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:17] <hbang> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [10:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [10:17] <darobin> "Specifically, because of the close relationship of the WebApps WG and the HTML WG in terms of participants, market, and community, the WebApps WG may opt to take on a limited number of specifications which were initially part of the HTML5 specification that have been split off for more general use with other languages. Consistent with W3C process, an Advisory Committee Review will evaluate whether the additional deliverable should be added to t
# [10:17] <darobin> he WebApps WG charter. The expectation is that if the review is successful, Working Group participants will not be required to re-join the Working Group. For any work transferred to the WebApps WG, the first draft published in the WebApps WG is considered the first public Working Draft for application of the Patent Policy exclusion rules."
# [10:17] <matt> paulc: Chris volunteers to scribe. Break now.
# [10:17] <krisk> I can scribe the next sessions
# [10:17] <matt> s/Chris/Kris/
# [10:17] <matt> s/Chris/Kris/g
# [10:17] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
# [10:17] <plh> s/sessions/session/
# [10:17] * plh :)
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# [10:17] <matt> zakim, drop rhone_3
# [10:17] <Zakim> Rhone_3 is being disconnected
# [10:17] <Zakim> HTML_WG()4:00AM has ended
# [10:17] <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3, Cynthia_Shelly
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# [10:24] * Joshue108 [HTML-A11y-TF] For anyone interested in helping with our work to create practical HTML5 techniques for WCAG, please do join us today. We have the Room Salon VIP (Rhone Floor) available today and will be working on existing techniques there after lunch. You can view existing work http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/HTML5 follow us on IRC #html-techs-tf. So if this is of interest, do get involved.
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# [10:25] * masinter wants to talk more about URL
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# [10:28] * Joshue108 @masinter Yup?
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# [10:47] <tomoyuki> Present+ Tomoyuki_Shimizu
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# [10:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()4:00AM has now started
# [10:58] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
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# [10:59] <krisk> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [10:59] <Zakim> On the phone I see Cynthia_Shelly
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# [11:00] <krisk> Zakim, call rhone_3
# [11:00] <Zakim> ok, krisk; the call is being made
# [11:00] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
# [11:00] * Marcos notes slides are at responsiveimagescg.github.com/meta/presentations/TPAC2012
# [11:00] <krisk> scribe: krisk
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# [11:01] <krisk> We are about to get started on the responsive images
# [11:01] <mjs> http://usecases.responsiveimages.org
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# [11:01] <krisk> mjs: see the pasted in link above
# [11:01] <mjs> http://picture.responsiveimages.org
# [11:01] <mjs> http://dev.w3.org/html5/srcset/
# [11:02] <krisk> mjs: two drafts for the use cases
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# [11:02] <krisk> mjs: their could be some convergence for these use cases
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# [11:02] <krisk> mjs: would anyone like to chat about these?
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# [11:03] <krisk> marcos: I can walk room through the use cases
# [11:03] <Marcos> responsiveimagescg.github.com/meta/presentations/TPAC2012
# [11:03] <krisk> group looking at the deck from marcos
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# [11:04] <sgodard> Present+ sgodard
# [11:04] <krisk> marcos: background had a hard time dealing with high res devices
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# [11:05] <krisk> marcos: got more organized and started a CG
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# [11:05] <krisk> CG == community group
# [11:05] <markw> #join #ac rhone
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# [11:05] <krisk> marcos: from the feedback we started to create use cases
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# [11:06] <krisk> marcos: we have also started to think about a new element, but this is not the primary use case
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# [11:06] <krisk> marcos: 'ART DIRECTION' is the primary use case
# [11:06] <krisk> marcos: 'DESIGN BREAKPOINTS' is the secondary use case
# [11:07] <krisk> see the slides
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# [11:07] <krisk> targets getting the right image for the right size and can potentially save bandwitdth
# [11:08] <krisk> s/bandwitdth/bandwidth/
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# [11:09] <krisk> marcos: printing has much, much larger DPI (1000 vs 96), images and text is a problem
# [11:09] <krisk> Now on the media types and features
# [11:09] <krisk> ..slide
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# [11:10] <cyns> q+
# [11:10] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [11:10] <krisk> marcos: another use case is orientation
# [11:10] <krisk> ...for a device
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# [11:10] <krisk> marcos: another use case is relative units
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# [11:11] <krisk> marcos: zooming in on a page or section of the page, can result in a bad image next 2 clear text
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# [11:12] <krisk> marcos: need apis to switch media sources on the fly (e.g. canvas, webrtc)
# [11:12] <krisk> ..new image formats are coming...
# [11:12] <krisk> ...jpeg2000, Web_, JPEG-XR
# [11:13] <krisk> ...very hard for web devs to do this w/o hacks (like ua sniffing)
# [11:13] <krisk> ..mobile platform would benifit alot since the new formats can have a significant bandwidth saving (30%)
# [11:14] <krisk> ..'match image sources with media queries - upate the source of an image automatically'
# [11:14] <krisk> ..'no server-side processing'
# [11:14] <krisk> ..'automatic fallback to legacy useragents'
# [11:15] <krisk> ...'simple api'
# [11:15] <krisk> 'what is the current source'
# [11:15] <krisk> 'what media is attached'
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# [11:15] <krisk> ...now on the breakpoint friendly slie (7)
# [11:16] <krisk> ..finally the requirement needs ot be poly-fillable
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# [11:16] <krisk> shelly: have we though about high contrast use cases
# [11:17] <cyns> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh465764.aspx
# [11:17] <krisk> marcos: we thought about, but looked at stuff that is online today
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# [11:17] <krisk> cyns: the above link is how w instruct people to address high contrast
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# [11:17] <cyns> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh465764.aspx
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# [11:18] <krisk> marcos: we need to provide a who and where to make it a use case
# [11:18] <krisk> cyns: I'll send you some who and where for your use cases
# [11:18] <krisk> marcos: here is our solution!
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# [11:18] <krisk> marcos: may or may not...
# [11:18] <hsivonen> need to compare that design with epub night reading mode design
# [11:18] <krisk> ...the picture element
# [11:19] <krisk> ...see the picture element slide
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# [11:19] <krisk> marcos: it looks alot like the html5 video element, multiple sources and fallback
# [11:19] <hsivonen> so get rid of prefixes!
# [11:19] <krisk> marcos: though vendor prefixing gets really messy
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# [11:19] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [11:20] <krisk> ..we also have fallback text for accessibility
# [11:20] <krisk> marcos: showing a live demo of this in action
# [11:21] <krisk> ???: private chromium build with a private patch
# [11:21] <krisk> marcos: showing source of the page
# [11:21] <hober> s/???/Yoav/
# [11:21] <hsivonen> yoav weiss
# [11:22] <krisk> yoav: you can see as the browser is resized the network trace shows getting the right image automatically
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# [11:23] <krisk> yoav: see how image is prefetched before css in network trace
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# [11:24] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [11:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
# [11:24] <krisk> yoav: we may need to reconsider how the fallback image gets downloaded...which is not needed and bad for perf
# [11:25] <krisk> marcos: it does have some trade-offs, it does work...maybe not ideal but does solve some real issues
# [11:25] <krisk> marcos: moving on to the srcset attribute
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# [11:26] <krisk> see ROUND-1 fight slide comparing srcset vs picture element
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# [11:27] <krisk> marocs: srcset would need an api to complete the use case
# [11:28] <Stevef> paulc: re timing of alt and main element discussions, apogies I relaized after that my flight was earlier than i thought, so need to leave TPAC at 4, requesting that the disucssion be moved to an ealrier time slot
# [11:28] <krisk> marcos: it's not trivial to do the parsing - it would be better to have a DOMTokenList (which is how classlist works)
# [11:29] <krisk> marcos: so one path would be to combine srcset and picture element
# [11:29] <krisk> marocs: result is less code
# [11:30] <krisk> marcos: can we have a mailing list?
# [11:30] <krisk> the html mailing list is too much
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# [11:30] <adrianba> q+
# [11:30] * Zakim sees cyns, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [11:30] <krisk> marcos: questions?
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# [11:30] <SimonPieters> q+
# [11:30] * Zakim sees cyns, adrianba, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [11:31] <hsivonen> q+
# [11:31] <krisk> pal: have you looked at CSS for solutions?
# [11:31] * Zakim sees cyns, adrianba, SimonPieters, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [11:31] <pal> pal?
# [11:31] <krisk> marcos: using css it's possible, but you can't use the image element must use divs
# [11:32] <pal> s/pal/???/
# [11:32] <krisk> yoav: css doesn't change alot, unlike image/content
# [11:32] <Zakim> +??P2
# [11:32] <krisk> mjs: is it possible for someone to talk about srcset?
# [11:33] <Stevef> zakim, ??P2 is SteveF
# [11:33] <Zakim> +SteveF; got it
# [11:33] <krisk> mjs: it seems odd that the 'round 1 -flight' only have red checks for srcset
# [11:33] <krisk> hober: will talk about srcset
# [11:33] <adrianba> s/???/pbakaus/
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# [11:33] <hsivonen> s/fligth/fight/
# [11:33] <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
# [11:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
# [11:34] <krisk> hober: we are not designing a feature in isolation
# [11:34] * ArtB btw, the mins from yesterday's #respimg session are http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-minutes.html
# [11:34] <krisk> hober: for example, css, svg, etc...
# [11:34] <krisk> hober: two use cases...
# [11:34] <adrianba> i/scribe: krisk/Topic: Responsive Images/
# [11:34] <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
# [11:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
# [11:34] <krisk> ...one is clipping and image
# [11:35] <krisk> ..the motivation is to get the right image loaded taking into account for size and bandwidth
# [11:36] <krisk> ..part of the design for srcset, the ua can pick the right asset
# [11:36] <krisk> ..that can save bandwidth
# [11:36] <adrianba> s/who os here?//
# [11:36] <adrianba> s/who is here?//
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# [11:37] <krisk> hober: multiple elements is complex and though we do this for audio/video
# [11:37] <krisk> ...they didn't exist. Unlike the image element
# [11:37] <adrianba> s/??: MSE/acolwell: MSE/
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# [11:38] <adrianba> s/#join #ac rhone//
# [11:38] <krisk> hober: if consider picking an image on pixel density, it's quite appealing to use srcset
# [11:39] <adrianba> s/..new/... new/
# [11:39] <krisk> looking at round 1 flight slide
# [11:39] * Joshue108 There is a recurring typo in the Use Cases doc: gridd
# [11:39] <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
# [11:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
# [11:40] <krisk> marcos: do people like the current syntax for srcset? how do we deal with this conflict
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# [11:40] <Cyril> q+
# [11:40] * Zakim sees cyns, adrianba, SimonPieters, hsivonen, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [11:41] <krisk> marcos: some people are quite concerned with ems -> 1, 2, 3 times
# [11:41] <krisk> marocs: not bad, maybe just a educational problem..since it's a bit differenet?
# [11:41] <krisk> marcos: can we work together to make this better?
# [11:41] <krisk> hober: of course
# [11:42] <adrianba> q-
# [11:42] * Zakim sees cyns, SimonPieters, hsivonen, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [11:42] <krisk> hober: a change to the syntax could be made and I'm happy to listen to suggestions
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# [11:43] <krisk> marcos: is it possble to makes an image load in srcset? for example for a web author needs to be force the image being loaded to test
# [11:43] <krisk> hober: you could just remove the srcset and then test
# [11:43] <krisk> yoav: one comment on vw/vh
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# [11:44] <krisk> yoav: zoom designs doesn't impact the view port pixles
# [11:45] <krisk> hsivonen: if you zoom in on a desktop browser, indeed pixel change
# [11:45] <krisk> ...you only need ems when the UA has the base font size not equal to 16
# [11:45] <krisk> ..1 em == 16px
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# [11:46] <krisk> ..part of the design of srcset is because site compat depends upon 1 em == 16px
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# [11:47] <krisk> mjs: I don't thing you'll find a browser that doesn't change one vs the other (em, pixle)
# [11:47] <krisk> ...so the user stylesheet is the only case
# [11:47] <darobin> q?
# [11:47] * Zakim sees cyns, SimonPieters, hsivonen, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [11:48] <hober> ack
# [11:48] <krisk> cyns you are on the q
# [11:48] <adrianba> q?
# [11:48] * Zakim sees cyns, SimonPieters, hsivonen, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [11:48] <krisk> ack
# [11:48] <cabanier> q+
# [11:48] * Zakim sees cyns, SimonPieters, hsivonen, Cyril, cabanier on the speaker queue
# [11:48] <darobin> ack Cyril
# [11:48] * Zakim sees cyns, SimonPieters, hsivonen, cabanier on the speaker queue
# [11:48] <adrianba> ack next
# [11:48] * Zakim sees cyns at the head of the speaker queue
# [11:48] <darobin> ack SimonPieters
# [11:48] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, hsivonen, cabanier on the speaker queue
# [11:48] * Zakim sees hsivonen, cabanier on the speaker queue
# [11:48] <SimonPieters> "new" technique that seems to solve the "retina" use case with just one image that has smaller file size than a "normal" image: http://blog.netvlies.nl/design-interactie/retina-revolution/
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# [11:48] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [11:48] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
# [11:48] * darobin stupid autocomplete
# [11:49] <darobin> q+ Cyril
# [11:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen, cabanier, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [11:49] <krisk> simonpieters: see link
# [11:50] <krisk> ...when you zoom in base vs retina would solve some of the use cases
# [11:50] <hober> q+ mjs
# [11:50] * Zakim sees hsivonen, cabanier, Cyril, mjs on the speaker queue
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# [11:51] <hober> ack hsivonen
# [11:51] * Zakim sees cabanier, Cyril, mjs on the speaker queue
# [11:51] <krisk> hsivonen: three comments on the original presentation
# [11:52] <krisk> ...wondering about the grey scale graph, color sentitive photos vs charts?
# [11:52] <krisk> ..we already have svg and media queries which is a better way to do this already
# [11:52] <krisk> ..another point is new image formats, adding new image formats should not be take lightly
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# [11:53] <krisk> ..the addition to the ecosystem is very costly and has a long, long life and attack surface
# [11:53] <SimonPieters> q+
# [11:53] * Zakim sees cabanier, Cyril, mjs, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [11:54] <krisk> ..maybe I am wrong...but I recall a site like facebook had lots of jpgs that were not compresed to the max
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# [11:55] <adrianba> s/..maybe/... maybe/
# [11:55] <krisk> ..given the size of the site and number of jpgs on their site. It might be better to push on the jpg decoder rather than switch to a new format
# [11:55] <adrianba> s/..we/... we/
# [11:55] <adrianba> s/..another/... another/
# [11:55] <adrianba> s/..the addition/... the addition/
# [11:55] <krisk> ..we may find arithmatic jpg encoding could be used as well
# [11:55] <adrianba> s/..given/... given/
# [11:56] <jgraham> I just ran the experiment on arithmetic encoding, and it seems that browsers don't support it
# [11:56] <krisk> marcos: first comment on svg, not very many tools or used to create svg
# [11:57] <krisk> mjs: adobe supports this...
# [11:57] <paulc> q+
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# [11:57] <krisk> marcos: not widely available and costs alot, even inkscape though free is not great
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# [11:57] <krisk> mjs: we need to get back to the q
# [11:58] <krisk> marcos: we have smaller cdn's that would use this so facebook may not be the best example
# [11:58] <hsivonen> q+
# [11:58] * Zakim sees cabanier, Cyril, mjs, SimonPieters, paulc, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [11:58] <yoav_> q+ yoav_
# [11:58] * Zakim sees cabanier, Cyril, mjs, SimonPieters, paulc, hsivonen, yoav_ on the speaker queue
# [11:58] <hober> q+
# [11:58] * Zakim sees cabanier, Cyril, mjs, SimonPieters, paulc, hsivonen, yoav_, hober on the speaker queue
# [11:58] <hober> ack cabanier
# [11:58] * Zakim sees Cyril, mjs, SimonPieters, paulc, hsivonen, yoav_, hober on the speaker queue
# [11:59] <krisk> cabnier: their is no reason why the img tag could not have other attributes
# [11:59] <hober> ack Cyril
# [11:59] * Zakim sees mjs, SimonPieters, paulc, hsivonen, yoav_, hober on the speaker queue
# [11:59] <krisk> cabnier: what happens on older browsers, with the image and p tags?
# [11:59] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [11:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [12:00] <krisk> cyril: he we are talking about content switching and we should have a way to combine content and css
# [12:00] <krisk> cyri: file size seems like a good pivot
# [12:00] <krisk> s/cyri/cyril/
# [12:01] <krisk> cyril: seems like this should work with video, for example streaming video
# [12:01] * Quits: seo (~seo@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:01] <krisk> cyril: in svg we are looking at a simalar issue
# [12:01] <krisk> cyril: how do we do make sure we do less http requests, though this doesn't seem to address
# [12:01] <hober> ack mjs
# [12:01] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, paulc, hsivonen, yoav_, hober on the speaker queue
# [12:03] <krisk> mjs: The early example was intresting, but what about pngs that are used for UI?
# [12:03] <hober> ack SimonPieters
# [12:03] * Zakim sees paulc, hsivonen, yoav_, hober on the speaker queue
# [12:03] * Joins: mdahlstrand (~mdahlstrand@public.cloak)
# [12:03] <adrianba> zakim, close queue
# [12:03] <Zakim> ok, adrianba, the speaker queue is closed
# [12:03] <darobin> Zakim, close the queue
# [12:03] <Zakim> ok, darobin, the speaker queue is closed
# [12:03] <krisk> mjs: since my experience alot of UI is not jpgs and is pngs
# [12:04] <SimonPieters> http://simon.html5.org/dump/compressive/size-50-quality-40-subsampling-422.JPG (214K) vs http://simon.html5.org/dump/compressive/size-50-quality-40-subsampling-420.JPG (198K)
# [12:04] * Joins: masinter (~user@public.cloak)
# [12:04] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [12:04] <krisk> simonpieters: seems like we need more research for logos and I agree with hsivonen on push the jpg encoder
# [12:05] <hober> ack paulc
# [12:05] * Zakim sees hsivonen, yoav_, hober on the speaker queue
# [12:05] <krisk> see the jpgs samples above
# [12:05] <krisk> paulc: I want to switch away from the technical discussion and talk about how to move these proposals forward
# [12:06] <krisk> paulc: though we didn't make a session for lists discussion and we should revisit since new items have a requirement for new lists
# [12:06] * Quits: cyns (~43a88369@public.cloak) ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
# [12:06] <krisk> ...how are we going to move these forward?
# [12:07] <hober> ack hsivonen
# [12:07] * Zakim sees yoav_, hober on the speaker queue
# [12:07] <krisk> paulc: do we just need to find a location and then move on...
# [12:07] <Marcos> +q
# [12:07] * Zakim whispers to Marcos that the speaker queue has been closed
# [12:07] <krisk> hsivonen: comment on svg
# [12:07] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [12:07] <krisk> ...the usage share for browsers that support is at 81% vs 0% for addaptive images
# [12:08] * Joins: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak)
# [12:08] <krisk> ..we should just svg since it's useable and not add a new item format
# [12:08] <krisk> ..if their are bugs (snap to pixels) then we should get the bugs fixed (perf, etc..)
# [12:09] <krisk> ..for tools most logos come from vector based editiors
# [12:10] <krisk> ..we should be pushing for svg rather than add a new format
# [12:10] <hober> ack yoav_
# [12:10] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [12:10] <krisk> marcos: we are not throwing svg under the bus, we love svg
# [12:10] <krisk> yoav: comment on jpg decoder...
# [12:11] * Parts: sgodard (~sgodard@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [12:11] * Joins: sgodard (~sgodard@public.cloak)
# [12:11] * Quits: sgodard (~sgodard@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [12:11] * Joins: sgodard (~sgodard@public.cloak)
# [12:11] <krisk> ..yoav: people are actively working on jpg encoder and I don't think browsers support aritmatic encoders
# [12:12] <krisk> hsivonen: you are correct
# [12:12] <krisk> yoav: no alpha channel exists and thus pngs are used
# [12:12] * Quits: Shinji (shinji@public.cloak)
# [12:13] <krisk> hsivonen: that is not good reason
# [12:13] <hober> q?
# [12:13] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [12:13] <krisk> yoav: we may want to give future image format a chance
# [12:13] <hober> ack hober
# [12:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [12:13] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [12:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [12:14] <krisk> hober: the comment on choosing an asset is works well using css+media query via clipping
# [12:14] <krisk> ...and you don't end up with another http request
# [12:14] <krisk> hober: so you don't need either
# [12:15] <krisk> mjs: I encourage people to continue this discussion on the list and paul and myself will look to get the list issue resolved
# [12:15] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [12:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [12:15] <adrianba> zakim, open queue
# [12:15] <Zakim> ok, adrianba, the speaker queue is open
# [12:15] <adrianba> Topic: Issue 195: Enhance HTTP request generation from forms
# [12:16] * darobin why was Marcos on the screen?
# [12:16] <krisk> next discusson: Isssue 195
# [12:16] * Quits: sburr (~sburr@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [12:16] <krisk> s/Isssue/Issue/
# [12:16] * SimonPieters darobin: he's recording i think
# [12:17] * darobin SimonPieters: yeah, but is that an excuse to put his face on a 4x3 projection?
# [12:17] <hsivonen> DELETE requested across the Web? really?
# [12:17] <krisk> cabanier: the changes involved is to add more HTTP enhancements beyond GET/POST
# [12:18] <krisk> cabanier: we are proposing to say you can't use ADD or DELETE
# [12:18] <krisk> cabanier: it's a black list
# [12:18] * MikeSmith darobin he did that as a parting node to his fans in the room
# [12:18] * Marcos darobin you wanna project IRC?
# [12:18] * darobin no thanks man :)
# [12:18] <krisk> cabanier: add a new element to the form, payload
# [12:19] <MikeSmith> s/cabanier/cjones/
# [12:19] <krisk> ..payload would have three new control terms
# [12:19] * Quits: Travis (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak) ("CGI:IRC")
# [12:19] * MikeSmith krisk cjones
# [12:19] <krisk> could bind to query string, http request header and body (like post)
# [12:19] <MikeSmith> s/member:cabanier: the changes /cjones; the changes/
# [12:20] <krisk> ...it also enables a form to manipulate the query string, body and header.
# [12:20] <MikeSmith> s/cabanier: the changes /cjones; the changes/
# [12:20] <paulc> q+
# [12:20] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [12:20] <krisk> ..this doesn't impact xforms
# [12:20] <SimonPieters> q+
# [12:20] * Zakim sees paulc, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [12:20] <krisk> ..this is just an addition
# [12:20] <MikeSmith> s/cabanier: we are proposing/cjones: we are proposing/
# [12:20] <krisk> ...we are also wanting to add two new form control fields
# [12:20] <paulc> Change proposal pro ISSUE-195: http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Cjones/ISSUE-195
# [12:21] <MikeSmith> s/cabanier: it's a black list/cjones: it's a black list/
# [12:21] <krisk> The three are
# [12:21] <paulc> Counter proposal from Ted: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-195
# [12:21] <krisk> ...username/password
# [12:21] <krisk> ...used for auth and can work with http auth directly (just like XHR)
# [12:22] <krisk> ..just want to provide this in static html
# [12:22] * Quits: ReinaldoFerraz (~ReinaldoFerraz@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:22] <krisk> ..another is a 'logout' attribute, since we adding auth we should add this as well
# [12:22] <MikeSmith> q?
# [12:23] <krisk> ..expects server to do the work
# [12:23] * Zakim sees paulc, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [12:23] <krisk> ..we have a proposal that we have been working on and will be looking to create an extension spec and get this integrated into the lifecycle of HTML5
# [12:23] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("always accept cookies")
# [12:24] <krisk> ..we'll have an extension spec by the end of the year
# [12:24] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:24] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [12:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [12:24] <krisk> ack paulc
# [12:24] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
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# [12:25] * Parts: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak) (Wonsuk)
# [12:25] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [12:25] <krisk> paulc: hober counter proposal to ISSUE 195 was that this was too late
# [12:25] <krisk> paulc: this is a good test for extension spec
# [12:26] <krisk> hober: I think the extension spec could be used
# [12:26] <sicking> q+
# [12:26] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, sicking on the speaker queue
# [12:26] <krisk> hober: I recall gecko had support of this and it was pulled, can someone comment on this?
# [12:26] * Joins: Mark_Vickers (~Mark_Vickers@public.cloak)
# [12:26] <MikeSmith> s/cabanier: the changes involved/cjones: the changes involved/
# [12:27] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [12:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [12:27] * Quits: Jirka (~jirka@public.cloak) (Jirka)
# [12:27] <krisk> simonpieters: the proposal enables new things that go over the wire, has security implication be reviewed?
# [12:27] <krisk> ..in legacy applications
# [12:28] <krisk> cabanier: this is all available today in XHR so their should be no additional security issues
# [12:28] <mjs> q+ to talk about security
# [12:28] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, sicking, mjs on the speaker queue
# [12:29] <Zakim> -SteveF
# [12:29] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [12:29] <krisk> simonpieters: I disagree, many sites apply blacklist approaches
# [12:29] <krisk> q+
# [12:29] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, sicking, mjs, krisk on the speaker queue
# [12:29] <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone
# [12:29] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', paulc
# [12:30] <Stevef> zakim [IPcaller] is me
# [12:30] <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [12:30] <Zakim> On the phone I see Cynthia_Shelly, Rhone_3, [IPcaller]
# [12:30] * Quits: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:30] * Quits: csmithpeters (~csmithpeters@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
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# [12:30] * Quits: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak) (dsinger)
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# [12:30] <krisk> sicking: commenting about gecko..
# [12:30] * Joins: knobuta2 (~knobuta2@public.irc.w3.org)
# [12:31] <SimonPieters> ack SimonPieters
# [12:31] * Zakim sees sicking, mjs, krisk on the speaker queue
# [12:31] * Quits: nkic (~Norifumi_Kikkawa@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [12:31] <krisk> ...I was not involved specifically, though we are trying to get away of password
# [12:31] <jgraham> ack sicking
# [12:31] * Zakim sees mjs, krisk on the speaker queue
# [12:31] <krisk> ...since passwords have problems and want to have a ID
# [12:31] <cjones> q+
# [12:31] * Zakim sees mjs, krisk, cjones on the speaker queue
# [12:31] * Quits: jet (~jet@public.cloak) (jet)
# [12:32] <krisk> ..we would like to move to crypto tokens and not investing in user/passwords, since crypto is better
# [12:32] <hober> ack mjs
# [12:32] <Zakim> mjs, you wanted to talk about security
# [12:32] * Zakim sees krisk, cjones on the speaker queue
# [12:33] <krisk> mjs: XHR has been on same origin until CORS
# [12:33] <hober> ack krisk
# [12:33] * Zakim sees cjones on the speaker queue
# [12:33] <krisk> ...it's not simple as saying XHR is safe:
# [12:34] <hsivonen> q+
# [12:34] * Zakim sees cjones, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [12:34] * Quits: Joshue108 (~Joshue@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
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# [12:34] <hober> ack cjones
# [12:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
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# [12:35] * Quits: sgodard (~sgodard@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:35] <Marcos> +q
# [12:35] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Marcos on the speaker queue
# [12:35] <krisk> cabanier: this stuff was added for UAs that has not CORS support, etc..
# [12:35] * Quits: Mark_Vickers (~Mark_Vickers@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [12:36] <krisk> ..it just about basic html
# [12:37] <Marcos> -q
# [12:37] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [12:37] <krisk> ..cabanier: going back to the gecko bug, it initially didn't have some headers which made PUSH DELETE verbs useless
# [12:37] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:37] * hober krisk: cjones, not cabanier
# [12:38] <krisk> cjones: redirects were not being handled which also impacted XHR
# [12:38] <hober> ack hsivonen
# [12:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [12:39] <krisk> hsivonen: during the intro was that this was requested alot on the web, which I don't believe is true.
# [12:39] <krisk> ...do we have any data that indicates this is really a key need for this feature
# [12:39] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:39] * Quits: markw (~markw@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:40] <krisk> hsivonen: what is the actualy implementation environement since XHR is available all over
# [12:40] <krisk> ..seems odd to favor a user agent or environment that doesn't have XHR
# [12:40] <krisk> cjones: the web should be able to work without javascript support
# [12:40] <jgraham> q+
# [12:40] * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
# [12:40] <krisk> ..the intrest comes from about every 6 months on public html
# [12:41] <krisk> ..stackoverflow or other programing sites this comes up alot...
# [12:41] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:41] <krisk> ..php supports this and may other backend solutions as well
# [12:41] <krisk> cjones: once they don't find this they stop looking...
# [12:42] <krisk> hsivonen: why did people stop and not use XHR?
# [12:42] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [12:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [12:42] * hsivonen SGML-based templates? did I hear right?
# [12:43] <krisk> cjones: SGML-based template solutions are what people are using
# [12:43] * Marcos hsivonen, it's the new hot! :)
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# [12:44] <hober> q?
# [12:44] * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
# [12:44] <hober> ack jgraham
# [12:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [12:44] <krisk> jgraham: it may not really implementable by a browser, from what I heard today browsers vendors would not be happy about implementing.
# [12:44] * Quits: dan_romascanu (~dan_romascanu@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
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# [12:44] <hbang> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [12:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [12:44] * Parts: giuseppe (~giuseppep@public.cloak) (giuseppe)
# [12:44] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
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# [12:44] * Quits: Yune (~Yune@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [12:44] <yoav_> hsivonen - This is the "em based MQ" technique I was referring to in the responsive images session http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html
# [12:44] <krisk> sorry cjones/cabanier about the mixup
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# [12:44] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [12:45] <krisk> This session is over, we'll start again in 1:12 minutes
# [12:45] <yoav_> http://blog.cloudfour.com/the-ems-have-it-proportional-media-queries-ftw/
# [12:45] <krisk> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [12:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html krisk
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# [12:47] <Zakim> -Rhone_3
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# [12:47] <Zakim> HTML_WG()4:00AM has ended
# [12:47] <Zakim> Attendees were Cynthia_Shelly, Rhone_3, SteveF, [IPcaller]
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# [13:42] <craig> ping
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# [13:46] <matt> Chair: Paul_Cotton
# [13:46] <matt> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2012#Agenda
# [13:46] <matt> Meeting: HTML WG TPAC F2F Day 1
# [13:46] <paulc> Present+1 Paul Cotton
# [13:46] <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [13:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html matt
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# [13:48] <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [13:48] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html matt
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# [13:56] <Zakim> HTML_WG()4:00AM has now started
# [13:56] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [13:56] <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [13:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller]
# [13:56] <glenn> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [13:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller]
# [13:56] <matt> zakim, dial rhone_3
# [13:56] <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
# [13:56] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
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# [13:56] <matt> zakim, IPcaller is Steve
# [13:56] <Zakim> +Steve; got it
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# [13:57] <nkic> present+ /me
# [13:57] <glenn> scribenick: glenn
# [13:57] * matt doesn't think present+ /me works.
# [13:57] <yoav_> present +yoav_
# [13:57] <glenn> present+ glenn
# [13:57] <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [13:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html matt
# [13:57] <Cyril> present+ Cyril
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# [13:58] <glenn> paulc: 2-3:30pm session: MSE, HTML5 Bug 18971
# [13:58] <glenn> ... coffee break 3-4pm
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# [13:58] <glenn> ... 2nd session 4-5:30pm perhaps longer
# [13:59] <glenn> ... have room til 1800
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# [13:59] <glenn> paulc: MSE - media source extensions
# [13:59] <glenn> ... and ED, not yet FPWD
# [13:59] <glenn> ... under development of media TF since May F2F
# [13:59] <glenn> ... tuesday morning telcons alternate between MSE/EME
# [14:00] <matt> -> http://w3.org/brief/Mjk2 MSE Bugs
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# [14:00] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Oct/0051.html
# [14:00] <glenn> ... see link above
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# [14:00] <glenn> ... this format will drive discussion
# [14:00] <glenn> ... bugs are rows in this table with status
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# [14:01] <glenn> ... needsinfo means don't understand
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# [14:01] <Johnsimmons> present +Johnsimmons
# [14:01] <glenn> ... wontfix ... eds believe no problem, or reporter doesn't understand spec
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# [14:01] <Magnus_Olsson> present+ Magnus_Olsson
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# [14:01] <glenn> ... 2nd list of bugs categorized as new feature
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# [14:01] <glenn> s/feature/features/
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# [14:01] <glenn> ... 11 new features
# [14:01] <glenn> ... may run out of time
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# [14:02] <glenn> ... acolwell, how would you like to proceed?
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# [14:02] <glenn> acolwell: 17002
# [14:03] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17002 Bug 17002 - Specify a mechanism to determine which SourceBuffer an AudioTrack,VideoTrack, or TextTrack belong to.
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# [14:03] <MikeSmith> infobot inform plh radio check
# [14:03] <matt> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Oct/att-0051/mse-bugs.htm MSE Bug summary
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# [14:03] * MikeSmith oops
# [14:03] <matt> s/infobot inform plh radio check//
# [14:03] <paulc> mse bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17002
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# [14:04] <glenn> acolwell: bug 17002 - desire to take track on elt and figure which source buffers assoc witih it
# [14:04] <glenn> ... proposal to use ID on track
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# [14:04] <glenn> ... looking at existing track intfcs, found text track doesn't have ID
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# [14:04] <glenn> ... i.e., needs @id on track element
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# [14:05] <glenn> ... are folks OK with adding to make consistent with A/V tracks?
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# [14:05] <glenn> paulc: reads bug description
# [14:06] <glenn> ... any q/c? on this proposal?
# [14:06] <plh> q+
# [14:06] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [14:06] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18971 Bug 18971 - TextTrack should have an id attribute
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# [14:06] <glenn> plh: asks how one gets track?
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# [14:07] <glenn> ... see 4.8.9 defines HTMLTrackElement
# [14:07] <matt> -> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/single-page.html#the-track-element Track Element
# [14:07] <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/the-track-element.html#the-track-element
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# [14:08] <matt> -> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/single-page.html#the-video-element video element
# [14:08] <glenn> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/single-page.html#texttrack
# [14:08] <glenn> travis: HTMLTrackElement has ID, but TrackElement does not
# [14:08] <tantek> so this is the trackid
# [14:08] <glenn> plh: tnx
# [14:09] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
# [14:09] <SimonPieters> s/but TrackElement/but TextTrack/
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# [14:09] <glenn> travis: some concerns in WebRTC to maintain consistency
# [14:09] * Cyril yeah, harmonization between WebRTC and MediaSource !
# [14:10] <SimonPieters> q?
# [14:10] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [14:10] <SimonPieters> ack plh
# [14:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:10] <dsinger> seems like it shouldn't make a difference to script whether I supply a multiplex including the text track (e.g. an MP4 file) or a separate <track> element containing it. In multiplexes all tracks have IDs, in the latter case we need them to also.
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# [14:11] <hbang> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [14:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [14:11] <plh> q?
# [14:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [14:11] <glenn> glenn: asks if name to use would be 'id' same as name of property on HTMLTextElement
# [14:11] <glenn> acolwell: yes
# [14:11] <glenn> glenn: probably confusing for authors
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# [14:11] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [14:12] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [14:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
# [14:12] <glenn> dsinger: ... [scribe missed]
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# [14:12] * dsinger ooh ugh, 'id' has a formal meaning in XML and sort-of in HTML, yes. and it's not one of those
# [14:12] <glenn> paulc: MSE eds should work with HTML5 eds to get this into HTML5
# [14:12] * dsinger to Glenn: typed my point above already, you're fine
# [14:12] <SimonPieters> q+
# [14:12] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [14:12] <glenn> ... will have some issues with layering back into 5.0
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# [14:13] <glenn> s/.../paulc:/
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# [14:13] * matt thinks dsinger's message about ID is worth getting on the record.
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# [14:13] <glenn> paulc: travis will propose solution to 17002
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# [14:14] <glenn> paulc: hope to publish 5.1 WD as soon as possible
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# [14:14] <glenn> robin: est ~2wks
# [14:14] <glenn> acolwell: should 5.1 spec be refd in general from MSE?
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# [14:15] <glenn> paulc: suggests it is possible to define @id in MSE itself
# [14:15] <darobin> s/est ~2wks/est ~2wks before the CfC/
# [14:15] <SimonPieters> q?
# [14:15] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [14:15] * darobin (to be entirely clear)
# [14:15] <glenn> s/robin/darobin/
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# [14:15] * dveditz_ is now known as dveditz
# [14:15] <matt> q?
# [14:15] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [14:15] <matt> ack Simon
# [14:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:16] <glenn> simonpieters: objects to having MSE define, but prefers defining in 5.1 itself
# [14:17] * yohAway is now known as yoh
# [14:17] <glenn> paulc: this would delay moving MSE forward to 2016 if it has norm ref to 5.1
# [14:17] <glenn> simonpieters: notes that this isn't necessarily a barrier
# [14:17] <glenn> paulc: depends on how stable refd spec is
# [14:18] <glenn> ACTION to paulc Figure out how Extension specs can refer to 5.1
# [14:18] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [14:18] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find to. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [14:18] <glenn> Action paulc: Figure out how extension specs can refer to HTML 5.1
# [14:18] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [14:18] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [14:18] <trackbot> Created ACTION-223 - Figure out how extension specs can refer to HTML 5.1 [on Paul Cotton - due 2012-11-08].
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# [14:20] <glenn> acolwell: 18960
# [14:20] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18960
# [14:20] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18960 Bug 18960 - Define how AudioTrack.id & VideoTrack.id are generated
# [14:20] <glenn> ... when using media source, about what fields should return
# [14:20] <glenn> s/fields/id fields/
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# [14:20] <glenn> ... need to be clearer about which ids are used
# [14:20] <Cyril> q+
# [14:20] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [14:21] <Cyril> q?
# [14:21] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [14:21] <glenn> cyril: can't just copy id from container file
# [14:21] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [14:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [14:21] <glenn> ... e.g., a and v tracks may use same id
# [14:22] <glenn> acolwell: if using a manifest using info about ids, can make use of that info
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# [14:22] <glenn> ack cyril
# [14:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:22] <glenn> acolwell: can discuss
# [14:22] <glenn> paulc: asks if this is to give a name to id?
# [14:23] <glenn> acolwell: MSE can permit construction where tracks change over times
# [14:23] <glenn> ... therefore more collision potential
# [14:23] <glenn> ... need to create rule to maintain track id uniqueness
# [14:23] * Quits: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:24] <glenn> simonpieters: are we still discussing text track id?
# [14:24] <dsinger> q+ to agree that the IDs need to be unique within the media element, and consistent over time
# [14:24] * Zakim sees dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:24] <markw> q+
# [14:24] * Zakim sees dsinger, markw on the speaker queue
# [14:24] <glenn> acolwell: also audio and video
# [14:24] <glenn> simonpieters: why uniqueness constraint?
# [14:24] <glenn> acolwell: due to getTrackById()
# [14:24] <glenn> ... if not unique, can't return one object
# [14:25] <glenn> acolwell: didn't want to cause change in HTML spec
# [14:25] * Parts: Marcos (~Adium@public.cloak) (Marcos)
# [14:25] <glenn> simonpieters: if we discover problem, then should consider changing HTML spec
# [14:25] <matt> q?
# [14:25] <matt> [[PLEASE don't change the semantics of ID]]
# [14:25] <matt> q?
# [14:25] * Zakim sees dsinger, markw on the speaker queue
# [14:25] * Zakim sees dsinger, markw on the speaker queue
# [14:25] <matt> ack dsinger
# [14:25] <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to agree that the IDs need to be unique within the media element, and consistent over time
# [14:25] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
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# [14:25] <glenn> dsinger: if playing a media file directly, then ids come from media
# [14:26] <glenn> ... if coming from dash, then dash layer should provide ids
# [14:26] <glenn> ... we should write rule for (a) unique, (b) consistent over time
# [14:26] <matt> ack markw
# [14:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:26] <glenn> markw: this is example of a general category
# [14:27] <glenn> ... can write code that doesn't need to know much about source
# [14:27] <glenn> ... but MSE needs more
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# [14:27] <glenn> ... concurs with dsinger about defining consistency rules
# [14:27] <SimonPieters> q?
# [14:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [14:28] <glenn> paulc: summarizes - multiple options presented here for consideration
# [14:28] <Cyril> q+
# [14:28] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [14:28] <glenn> acolwell: one other thing ... if we don't have original id, then in a multiplex, can't identify particular track
# [14:29] <markw> q+
# [14:29] * Zakim sees Cyril, markw on the speaker queue
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# [14:29] <glenn> adrianba: depends on how one views MSE and common uses
# [14:30] <glenn> ... if you look at MSE, API is designed to use formats that use manifest
# [14:30] <Cyril> s/MSE, API is/MSE as an API/
# [14:30] <glenn> ... if you look at MSE as way of abstracting how data gets into media element, then may not have a manifest
# [14:31] <matt> q?
# [14:31] * Zakim sees Cyril, markw on the speaker queue
# [14:31] <glenn> ... should consider how to approach MSE in this latter case, since no manifest available
# [14:31] <matt> ack cyril
# [14:31] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [14:31] <glenn> cyril: q is should id be static?
# [14:31] <glenn> ... may need to change id
# [14:32] <glenn> acolwell: thinks spec currently says it shouldn't change
# [14:32] <glenn> ... need to choose which rule to violate
# [14:32] <glenn> markw: problematic if UA generates ids
# [14:33] <SimonPieters> We could have two attributes: id (stable, unique) and containerid (from the container, not necessarily unique or stable)
# [14:33] <glenn> ... if script supplies ids, then should allow control by script
# [14:33] <SimonPieters> If there are use cases for having both
# [14:33] <matt> q?
# [14:33] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [14:33] <glenn> paulc: who owns this bug?
# [14:34] <dsinger> I had two cases, not one. If the media engine is playing a manifest directly, then the manifest is the 'origin' of IDs. If the media source extensions are supplying media, they are the source of IDs. (I don't care what is driving those scripts, in the latter case). We just need to say that those IDs are unique within the media element and consistent over time, and leave it to the 'surface' of the media to ensure that's true.
# [14:34] <glenn> ... eds need to assign bug owner
# [14:34] <glenn> acolwell: bug 18601
# [14:34] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18601
# [14:35] <glenn> acolwell: should not require initialization segment?
# [14:35] <glenn> ... pat/pmt in TS proposal is considered initialization segment
# [14:35] <glenn> s/pat\/pmt/PAT\/PMT/
# [14:36] <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [14:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html matt
# [14:36] <glenn> dsinger: notes that some formats are self-initializing
# [14:36] * matt has a feeling \/ doesn't work, but you can use | as a separator.
# [14:36] <glenn> acolwell: some slight differences in terminology about what 'initialization segment' means
# [14:36] <glenn> paulc: proposal is WONTFIX unless someone brings a media format
# [14:36] <matt> s|pat/pmt|PAT/PMT|
# [14:36] <hober> s|pat/pmt|PAT/PMT|
# [14:36] <glenn> acolwell: remove conflict
# [14:37] <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [14:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html matt
# [14:37] <glenn> paulc: 19531
# [14:37] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19531
# [14:37] <dsinger> notes that the definition of initialization segment to me, at least, excludes self-initializing media segments, and if that's not intended the text (and examples) need revision
# [14:37] * darobin "simplify mime type capability" sounds like a bug on the entire web :)
# [14:38] <glenn> adrianba: issue about what mime types MSE could accept
# [14:38] <glenn> ... need feedback on two proposals
# [14:38] <glenn> ... one is add method isTypeSupported()
# [14:38] <glenn> ... will say if source buffer can be created for some mime type
# [14:39] <adrianba> q+
# [14:39] * Zakim sees markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [14:39] <glenn> ... alternate is something like canPlayType() => probably, maybe, no
# [14:39] <glenn> ... isn't clear which is best
# [14:39] <glenn> s/adrianba:/acolwell:/
# [14:39] * matt we seem to be hitting a bug in scribe.perl where some substitutions are failing. They work fine if you use: http://www.w3.org/2005/02/minutes?uri=http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-irc.txt which whomever is cleaning up the minutes can check back in over the original minutes
# [14:39] <glenn> ... prefers former (return binary value)
# [14:39] <matt> ack next
# [14:39] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [14:39] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [14:40] <matt> ack next
# [14:40] * Zakim sees adrianba at the head of the speaker queue
# [14:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:40] <markw> q-
# [14:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:40] <Cyril> q+ canPlayType is for when you don't have codec parameters
# [14:40] * Zakim Cyril, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [14:40] <glenn> adrianba: matter of consistency
# [14:40] <markw> bool isTypeSupported seems ok to me, but if canPlayType is NO then isTypeSupported should be false
# [14:41] <glenn> ... if you have code for canPlayType for basic media, then perhaps should reuse that here
# [14:41] <glenn> ... in EME, will extend canPlayType()
# [14:41] <matt> q+ Cyril to say canPlayType is for when you don't have codec parameters
# [14:41] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [14:41] * Cyril thanks matt
# [14:41] * matt no problem
# [14:41] <glenn> ... may be necessary to apply same params here (with MSE)
# [14:41] <dsinger> q+ to say that we need a differentiation between whole files and MSE-supported files
# [14:41] * Zakim sees Cyril, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:41] <matt> ack Cyril
# [14:41] <Zakim> Cyril, you wanted to say canPlayType is for when you don't have codec parameters
# [14:41] * Zakim sees dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:42] <glenn> cyril: canPlayType() .... may not know how many tracks
# [14:42] <markw> q+
# [14:42] * Zakim sees dsinger, markw on the speaker queue
# [14:42] <glenn> ... but in this case could be asked on a per-track basis
# [14:42] <adrianba> q?
# [14:42] * Zakim sees dsinger, markw on the speaker queue
# [14:42] <markw> isContainerSupported ?
# [14:43] <glenn> acolwell: this seems more about whether byte stream format is supported as opposed to whether that content can be played
# [14:43] <glenn> ... donesn't think anything gained by using canPlayType... thinks returning "probably" is not helpful
# [14:43] <glenn> ... either you support that format or you don't
# [14:44] <matt> q?
# [14:44] * Zakim sees dsinger, markw on the speaker queue
# [14:44] <matt> ack next
# [14:44] * Zakim sees dsinger at the head of the speaker queue
# [14:44] <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to say that we need a differentiation between whole files and MSE-supported files
# [14:44] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [14:44] <glenn> cyril: may not care about track format vs container format
# [14:44] <glenn> dsinger: asking different questions
# [14:44] <glenn> ... may support may types but not support playing with MSE
# [14:45] <glenn> ... thinks orthogonal issues of getting segments into media versus playing media (consisting of such segments)
# [14:45] * Cyril +1
# [14:45] <glenn> markw: agrees, wonders if 'isContainerSupported' is better
# [14:45] <matt> ack next
# [14:45] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [14:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:46] * Cyril could be the case for H264 in MP4 vs H264 in MPEG-2 TS
# [14:46] <glenn> paulc: acolwell, do you have enough here for a decision?
# [14:46] * matt Cyril, these sound like good comments to have in the record.
# [14:46] <adrianba> q+
# [14:46] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [14:46] <glenn> acolwell: agrees testing 2 diff things
# [14:46] * Joins: noriya_ (~noriya@public.irc.w3.org)
# [14:46] <markw> is it possible that an implementation could support some codec X when supplied in an WebM file but not when supplied in WebM format over MediaSource ? We hope not.
# [14:47] <Cyril> To answer Dave's comment, there could be the case that someone supports H264 in MP4 but not H264 in MPEG-2 TS (or vice versa)
# [14:47] <adrianba> ack me
# [14:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:47] <glenn> acolwell: interpreted dsinger as supporting position
# [14:48] <glenn> adrianba: does anyone object to isTypeSupported on MS?
# [14:48] <glenn> paulc: no objections noted
# [14:48] <glenn> cyril: testing only container
# [14:48] <adrianba> s/on MS?/on MSE?/
# [14:48] <hbang> rrsagent, draft minuites
# [14:48] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minuites', hbang. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [14:49] <hbang> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [14:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [14:49] <glenn> acolwell: bug 18962
# [14:49] * SimonPieters thinks it's "make minutes"
# [14:49] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18962 Bug 18962 - Allow appending with XHR
# [14:49] <glenn> acolwell: use XHT to append data?
# [14:49] <adrianba> q+
# [14:49] <glenn> s/XHT/XHR/
# [14:49] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [14:50] <Cyril> q+
# [14:50] * Zakim sees adrianba, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [14:50] <glenn> acolwell: would allow appending stream object that comes from XHR
# [14:50] * Quits: leetv3 (~leetv3@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:50] <adrianba> ack me
# [14:50] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [14:50] <SimonPieters> http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/ (search for "stream")
# [14:51] <glenn> adrianba: raised in WebApps, has action to write spec
# [14:51] <glenn> ... addition of some events to signal progress of append
# [14:51] * Quits: jyp (~jyp@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [14:51] * Quits: Kiyoshi_ (~Kiyoshi@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [14:51] <glenn> ... purpose - asynchronously append data from network stream without having to involve JS
# [14:52] * Quits: leetv (~leetv@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:52] <glenn> ... should reduce code complexity, better performance (memory and speed)
# [14:52] <glenn> ... while XHR is primary use case, but doesn't actually need to know source is XHR
# [14:52] * Joins: jyp (~jyp@public.irc.w3.org)
# [14:53] <glenn> ... needs way to tell application when its safe to append again
# [14:53] * Joins: leetv (~leetv@public.cloak)
# [14:53] * Joins: richt (~richt@public.cloak)
# [14:53] <glenn> ... need to understand what circumstances can have append fail
# [14:53] <glenn> ... should assume appends [always] succeed? probably not
# [14:53] * Quits: jyp (~jyp@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [14:53] * Joins: leetv2 (~leetv2@public.irc.w3.org)
# [14:54] * Joins: leetv_ (~leetv@public.cloak)
# [14:54] <glenn> ... may need to indicate what type of failure occurred
# [14:54] <matt> q?
# [14:54] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [14:54] * Joins: jyp (~jyp@public.irc.w3.org)
# [14:54] <matt> ack next
# [14:54] * Zakim sees Cyril at the head of the speaker queue
# [14:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:54] <glenn> paulc: this bug refers to that XHR addition?
# [14:54] * Joins: massimo (~AndChat393204@public.cloak)
# [14:54] <adrianba> q?
# [14:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:54] <glenn> adrianba: yes
# [14:54] <glenn> cyril: is there a requirement array is populated in JS?
# [14:55] <glenn> ... could it be populated only when accessed [in JS]?
# [14:55] <markw> q+
# [14:55] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [14:55] <glenn> acolwell: it's possible, but not how [Google] currently implements it
# [14:55] <glenn> adrianba: during download possible to look at array buffer
# [14:55] <glenn> ... expected array buffer represents continguous memory block
# [14:56] <glenn> ... wants to allow media engine to be in control of moving data into [decoder]
# [14:56] <adrianba> q?
# [14:56] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [14:56] <matt> ack next
# [14:56] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [14:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:56] <glenn> markw: thinks couldn't get array buffer [with known length] until transfer complete
# [14:56] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:56] <markw> q-
# [14:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:56] <glenn> acolwell: thinks he has enough to run with this
# [14:57] <markw> also, can't use arraybuffer with open range requests
# [14:57] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18963 Bug 18963 - Provide a mechanism for rate limiting appending
# [14:58] <glenn> paulc: bug 18963
# [14:58] * Joins: mdahlstrand (~mdahlstrand@public.cloak)
# [14:58] * Joins: fwtnb_ (~fwtnb@public.irc.w3.org)
# [14:58] <Cyril> q+
# [14:58] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [14:58] <glenn> adrianba: should there be mechanism to inform app it is appending data faster than being consumed?
# [14:58] <glenn> ... i.e., rate limiting
# [14:59] <Cyril> q-
# [14:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:59] <glenn> ... do we really need to do this now?
# [14:59] <glenn> ... or is this just an enhancement [that can be postponed]
# [14:59] <glenn> ... what is current behavior for append if buffer is full?
# [14:59] <glenn> acolwell: currently append won't fail
# [15:00] <glenn> ... spec can do GC
# [15:00] <glenn> ... e.g., to remove parts of source buffer
# [15:00] <Cyril> q+
# [15:00] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [15:00] <glenn> ... chrome will trim material earlier than current playback position
# [15:00] * Joins: hitoshi_ (~hitoshi@public.cloak)
# [15:00] <glenn> ... tries to assess usefulness of data for throwing away
# [15:00] <adrianba> q?
# [15:00] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [15:01] <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [15:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html matt
# [15:01] <glenn> ... if there were event, could use remove[Data] to have app make decisions
# [15:01] <glenn> adrianba: failing append used for rate limiting
# [15:02] <matt> rrsagent, pointer?
# [15:02] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-irc#T14-05-44
# [15:02] <glenn> cyril: would be nice to have a presentation occupancy indicator
# [15:02] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak)
# [15:02] <glenn> markw: not clear there's a fixed amount of memory for source buffer
# [15:02] <plh> q?
# [15:02] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [15:02] <Cyril> s/a presentation occupancy/a buffer occupancy/
# [15:02] <glenn> ... if error on append, then wait and try again
# [15:02] <Cyril> q-
# [15:02] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:02] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:02] <glenn> acolwell: if there isn't threshold, then throw an error instead of GC
# [15:03] <adrianba> q?
# [15:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:03] <glenn> cyril: thinks resolution is to throw exception, but may want to know finer exception reason
# [15:04] <glenn> acolwell: agreed
# [15:05] <glenn> acolwell: bug 18709 - remove [data] method
# [15:05] <glenn> s/data/time ranges/
# [15:05] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18709 Bug 18709 - Add SourceBuffer.remove() method
# [15:05] * Quits: rubylin (~rubylin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:05] <glenn> ... what if remove on current playback position?
# [15:06] <glenn> ... if data gets appended over playback position, then what?
# [15:06] <glenn> ... stay paused? seek?
# [15:06] * Joins: shoko (~shoko@public.irc.w3.org)
# [15:06] <glenn> ... keyframe?
# [15:06] <markw> q+
# [15:06] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [15:06] <glenn> ... if seeked, then should those events be internal only or surfaced [to script]?
# [15:07] <dsinger> q+
# [15:07] * Zakim sees markw, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [15:07] <matt> ack next
# [15:07] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [15:07] * Quits: jyp (~jyp@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:07] * Zakim sees dsinger on the speaker queue
# [15:07] <glenn> ack markw
# [15:07] * Zakim sees dsinger on the speaker queue
# [15:07] * Quits: hitoshi_ (~hitoshi@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:07] <glenn> markw: general rule is if you don't have data for current playback position
# [15:07] <glenn> ... then like being in network stall
# [15:08] <glenn> ... when data starts arriving, like resuming from stall
# [15:08] <glenn> ... odd situation
# [15:08] * Quits: yamaday (~yamaday@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:08] * Quits: kawakami (~kawakami@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:08] <glenn> ... if resumed data doesn't really match, then error case
# [15:08] * Joins: kawakami (~kawakami@public.cloak)
# [15:08] <glenn> ... can't happen in current format
# [15:08] * Quits: nkic (~Norifumi_Kikkawa@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:08] <glenn> acolwell: artifact of MSE
# [15:08] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [15:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [15:08] <glenn> markw: like appending with data not starting with I-frame
# [15:09] <matt> ack next
# [15:09] * Zakim sees dsinger at the head of the speaker queue
# [15:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:09] <glenn> ... do you throw away up to I-frame?
# [15:09] <glenn> dsinger: isn't this dependent on implementation behavior?
# [15:09] * Quits: MartinSoukup (~martin.soukup@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:09] <glenn> ... most decoders just keep playing (skipping as needed)
# [15:09] * Joins: nkic (~Norifumi_Kikkawa@public.cloak)
# [15:09] <glenn> ... i.e., this is a quality of implementation issue
# [15:09] <markw> q-
# [15:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:09] <glenn> paulc: could add "this is undedefined" to spec
# [15:10] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
# [15:10] <glenn> acolwell: hearing "stall" but not "seek"
# [15:10] * Quits: sburr (~sburr@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:10] <markw> playback starts again automatically, as if resuming from a network stall, but what is displayed before getting to the next I-Frame is undefined
# [15:10] <glenn> paulc: bug 17094
# [15:11] * Joins: jyp (~jyp@public.irc.w3.org)
# [15:11] <glenn> ... are there MPEG-2 TS experts here?
# [15:11] * Joins: leetv__ (~leetv@public.cloak)
# [15:12] * Quits: leetv_ (~leetv@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:12] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17094 Bug 17094 - Define segment formats for MPEG2-TS
# [15:13] * Quits: leetv2 (~leetv2@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:13] * matt would have scribed what glenn said, but couldn't hear him at all.
# [15:13] * Joins: hitoshi_ (~hitoshi@public.irc.w3.org)
# [15:13] <matt> q?
# [15:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:14] <glenn> Action glenn: Follow up with Bob Lund on bug 17094
# [15:14] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [15:14] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find glenn. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [15:14] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [15:14] <dsinger> self-initing MP4 files all start at time 0, as well, so their order is indeterminate. the same question arises
# [15:14] <glenn> acolwell: because there are no markers for begin/end in media source, there is some issue
# [15:15] <glenn> dsinger: same (similar?) issue with MPEG-4
# [15:15] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:15] <glenn> acolwell: no begin/end in media segment
# [15:16] <Cyril> to answer dave's question, for MP4 you'd have to use timestampOffset when appending
# [15:16] * Joins: massimowww (~AndChat393204@public.cloak)
# [15:16] * Quits: massimo (~AndChat393204@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:16] <markw> with dash/mp4 you don't have a sequence of self-initializing media segments. You just have one and you extract the sub-segments.
# [15:16] <acolwell> acolwell: Because there are no markers for the begin/end of a media segment, it is difficult for MSE to differentiate a TS discontinuity from a out-of-order append.
# [15:16] <dsinger> so, for any format, use timestampoffset to set the correct overall timeline (i.e. after applying this, the timestamps are in the global order)
# [15:16] <markw> the timestamps within a period are monotonic, unlike mpeg2 ts
# [15:17] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17002 Bug 17002 - Specify a mechanism to determine which SourceBuffer an AudioTrack,VideoTrack, or TextTrack belong to.
# [15:17] <glenn> paulc: bug 17002
# [15:17] <glenn> adrianba: mechanism for mapping track object against html media element back to source buffer
# [15:18] <glenn> ... related to track ids discussion
# [15:18] <hbang> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [15:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [15:18] * Quits: shige (~shige@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:18] <glenn> ... given a media element, identify active track, and determine which source buffer applies so you know where to append
# [15:18] <glenn> ... adrianba prefers using id string if it can be made to work
# [15:19] <glenn> ... if have track id, then should be able to map back to source buffer
# [15:19] <glenn> acolwell: use object instead of id?
# [15:19] <glenn> ... yes, that would remove dependency on 5.1
# [15:20] * Quits: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:20] <matt> q?
# [15:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:20] * massimowww is now known as massimo
# [15:20] <glenn> adrianba: any ojection?
# [15:20] <glenn> [scribe: none heard]
# [15:20] * Joins: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak)
# [15:20] * Quits: bjkim (~byungjung@public.cloak) (bjkim)
# [15:21] <adrianba> i/acolwell: use/adrianba: perhaps we should now use the objects to remove the dependency on ids - i'd like to ask if anybody objects to that/
# [15:21] * Joins: Travis (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
# [15:21] * matt MikeSmith shows off his mind powers
# [15:22] <Travis> Alternate form using union types from WebIDL= SourceBuffer? getSourceBuffer((VideoTrack or AudioTrack or TextTrack) track);
# [15:22] * Quits: paul-hw (~paul@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:22] <Travis> Overloaded functions is also supported as-is.
# [15:22] <glenn> present+ Glenn_Adams
# [15:22] * matt thinks the question is whether it's good/best practice, rather than if it's possible.
# [15:23] <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/charter/2012/ Draft charter
# [15:23] * Travis thinks there's no established best-practice as far as I know.
# [15:23] <glenn> paulc: presents charter draft
# [15:23] * matt neither
# [15:23] <glenn> ... deliverables: (1) HtML5 et al (2) HTML 5.1
# [15:23] <glenn> ... dates from "Plan 2014"
# [15:23] * matt is pretty sure plh is far from ok.
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# [15:24] <glenn> ... believes plh is OK if he sends to draft to charter with NO SCHEDULE for media extensions
# [15:24] * Quits: leetv__ (~leetv@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [15:24] <glenn> ... may get comments: why no schedule for media extensions?
# [15:24] <hbang> rssagent, make minutes
# [15:24] <glenn> ... but we could choose 5.1 schedule for media extensions
# [15:24] * Quits: massimo (~AndChat393204@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:24] <markw> q+
# [15:24] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [15:25] <glenn> ... in which case, would have FPWD before end of 2012, but no REC until Q42016
# [15:25] <glenn> ... seems slow
# [15:25] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [15:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [15:25] <glenn> ... in media TF have discussed
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# [15:25] <glenn> ... haven't brought to FPWD due to rennovation of APIs, more object oriented, etc.
# [15:25] <glenn> ... these bugs are primarily clean up from tha twork
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# [15:26] <glenn> s/tha twork/that work/
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# [15:26] <glenn> ... there is a disclosure requirement after FPWD
# [15:26] <glenn> ... not only should design but also scope be well understood before FPWD due to IPR policy consequences
# [15:27] <glenn> ... media TF would like to go to FPWD before end of 2012 [no matter what]
# [15:27] <glenn> ... believes vast majority of bugs will be addressed by then
# [15:27] <glenn> ... if 5.1 sched isn't used, then can make up a [faster] sched
# [15:27] <glenn> ... paulc would propose as follows:
# [15:27] * Joins: kt (~kt@public.irc.w3.org)
# [15:27] <glenn> ... FPWD - Q412
# [15:28] <glenn> ... how long to LC?
# [15:28] <matt> ack markw
# [15:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:28] <glenn> markw: what are LC exit criteria?
# [15:29] <glenn> paulc: an extension could be either more strict or more lax than 5.0
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# [15:29] <glenn> ... should evaluate "public permissive" but may choose differently
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# [15:29] <adrianba> q+ to talk about milestones
# [15:29] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [15:29] <glenn> ... indeed individual media extensions could have distinct criteria
# [15:30] <glenn> paulc: can LC be complete in 2013
# [15:30] <glenn> ... suggest Q413 for LC completion
# [15:30] <jgraham> I note that CR typically does have test requirements
# [15:30] <matt> ack next
# [15:30] * Zakim sees adrianba at the head of the speaker queue
# [15:30] <Zakim> adrianba, you wanted to talk about milestones
# [15:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:30] <ArtB> q+ re schedule
# [15:30] * Zakim sees ArtB on the speaker queue
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# [15:31] <glenn> adrianba: proposes to move aggressively to LC
# [15:31] <glenn> ... shouldn't delay
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# [15:33] <glenn> paulc: will need to meet exit criteria... e.g., impls and some testing
# [15:33] <glenn> adrianba: proposes Q213 for LC completion
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# [15:33] <adrianba> q?
# [15:33] * Zakim sees ArtB on the speaker queue
# [15:33] <matt> ack next
# [15:33] * Zakim sees ArtB at the head of the speaker queue
# [15:33] <Zakim> ArtB, you wanted to discuss schedule
# [15:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:34] <glenn> artb: recommends being as vague and as non-committal as possible in charter
# [15:34] <mjs> q+
# [15:34] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [15:34] <glenn> markw: supports agressive time scale, no opinion on whether its in charter
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# [15:35] * darobin ArtB is completely wrong on this, we should remove all timetables and other such boilerplate from charters, it's just a habit
# [15:35] * darobin err, completely right I meant!
# [15:35] <glenn> ... has some confident can meet an aggressive time scale
# [15:35] <glenn> mark_vickers: concurs... be aggressive
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# [15:35] * darobin not sure how he managed to type "wrong" for "right", blames autocorrect
# [15:35] <matt> q?
# [15:35] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [15:35] <matt> ack next
# [15:35] <glenn> adrianba: supports being vague in published dates, but aggressive on work
# [15:35] * Zakim sees mjs at the head of the speaker queue
# [15:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:36] <glenn> mjs: for HTML5, have milestones in charter
# [15:36] <adrianba> s/published dates/CR and PR dates/
# [15:36] * Cyril just like werewolf and villagers
# [15:36] <glenn> ... due to extreme interest in schedule
# [15:36] <adrianba> s/aggressive on work/agressive on LC/
# [15:36] <glenn> ... but nobody has pressed for schedule on other deliverables
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# [15:36] <glenn> ... little advantage to public date commitments
# [15:36] <matt> q?
# [15:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:36] <adrianba> +1 to mjs
# [15:37] * hober +N even
# [15:37] <glenn> acolwell: agrees with mjs
# [15:37] * darobin it's not that you need the sticks, it's just that we enjoy using them
# [15:37] <matt> [[I've seen schedules at times bring people into the process sooner rather than later, but don't care if it's in the charter or not]]
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# [15:38] <glenn> paulc: is there any objection to not including date sched for media extensions in charter?
# [15:38] <glenn> ... none heard... we'll go with that as current position
# [15:38] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
# [15:38] <glenn> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [15:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html glenn
# [15:38] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [15:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
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# [15:38] <matt> zakim, drop rhone_3
# [15:38] <Zakim> Rhone_3 is being disconnected
# [15:38] <glenn> end of this session
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# [15:38] <Zakim> -Rhone_3
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# [15:39] <glenn> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [15:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html glenn
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# [15:50] <Zakim> + +1.303.661.aaaa
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# [15:51] <BobLund> zakim, 1.303.661.aaaa is me
# [15:51] <Zakim> sorry, BobLund, I do not recognize a party named '1.303.661.aaaa'
# [15:51] <BobLund> zakim, +1.303.661.aaaa is me
# [15:51] <Zakim> +BobLund; got it
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# [15:56] <Mark_Vickers> present+ Mark_Vickers
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# [16:03] <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [16:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see Steve, BobLund
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# [16:04] <matt> zakim, dial rhone_3
# [16:04] <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
# [16:04] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
# [16:04] <Zakim> -Rhone_3
# [16:04] <matt> zakim, dial rhone_3
# [16:04] <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
# [16:04] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
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# [16:05] <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
# [16:05] <yoav_> Present+ yoav_
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# [16:05] * matt scribes, I'm happy to manage the queue and links if that helps.
# [16:05] * matt "Topic: <topic>"
# [16:05] <Travis> Topic: EME
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# [16:06] <BobLund> I've got to leave at half past the hour.
# [16:06] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Nov/0006.html
# [16:06] <matt> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Nov/att-0006/EME_open_bugs_2012-11-1.html EME bugs
# [16:06] <Travis> paulc: looking into the priorized list of EME bugs
# [16:06] * Quits: paul (~paul@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
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# [16:06] * matt linked directly to attachment.
# [16:06] <Travis> .. look at the attachment in Paul's mail link
# [16:07] * matt paulc note that BobLund has to leave in 20 minutes, perhaps best to prioritize on that
# [16:07] * Travis thanks matt for helping.
# [16:07] <Masahito> +q
# [16:07] * Zakim sees Masahito on the speaker queue
# [16:07] * matt Travis, no problem
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# [16:07] <adrianba> q?
# [16:08] * Zakim sees Masahito on the speaker queue
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# [16:08] <Travis> ack Masahito
# [16:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [16:08] <Travis> masinter:
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# [16:09] <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
# [16:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
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# [16:09] <matt> s/masinter://
# [16:09] * matt Masahito speaking
# [16:09] <Travis> Masahito: some comments on EME (co-chair of WebTV XG)
# [16:10] <Travis> ... storage proposal for media content (caching)--how will EME be related to protect that content?
# [16:10] <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2012/tvapis TV APIs discussion yesterday
# [16:10] <adrianba> i/scribenick: glenn/Topic: Media Source Extension/
# [16:10] <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/29-webtv-minutes.html Web and TV IG minutes
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# [16:11] <Travis> ... Use cases for EME seem to address our cases so far.
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# [16:11] <Travis> ... Can I add some additional uses cases in the draft?
# [16:11] <tomoyuki> s/WebTV XG/Web and TV IG/
# [16:11] <Travis> ... Don't seem many use cases in the current draft.
# [16:11] <adrianba> q+ to comment on the Web and TV IG use cases
# [16:11] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [16:11] <Travis> paulc: has anyone filed bugs for other use cases?
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# [16:11] <Travis> q?
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# [16:12] <Travis> ddorwin1: goal is that it's not restrive. That's why there's not many use cases.
# [16:12] <Travis> ... we know we need to add an introduction to how to use.
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# [16:13] <Travis> ... not sure where that would go.
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# [16:13] <Travis> paulc: typical W3C will write a non-normative primer.
# [16:13] <Travis> ... contains examples of what the technology might solve.
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# [16:13] <Travis> ... example was XMLSchema.
# [16:14] <Travis> ... doesn't need to go in the spec itself.
# [16:14] <matt> q?
# [16:14] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [16:14] <Travis> ... the audience for the specs are very different.
# [16:14] <Travis> ack adrianba
# [16:14] <Zakim> adrianba, you wanted to comment on the Web and TV IG use cases
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# [16:15] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [16:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [16:15] <Travis> adrianba: remember that this work is a follow-up the requirements gathered by web and TV IG.
# [16:15] <Travis> ... there are a bunch of use cases and reqs that the IG gathered.
# [16:15] <Travis> ... I repeat that as the Web and TV IG reviewes charter and scope, that they should identify use cases and reqs for content in general...
# [16:16] <Travis> ... and which are satisified by EME and other systems and what the gaps are.
# [16:16] <Travis> q?
# [16:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:16] <Travis> Masahito: Agree, that's a good direction.
# [16:16] <Travis> ... also thinking that from EME's POV, it already covers everything we know
# [16:17] <Travis> ... I'm suggesting that we specifically describe how EME will be used in such cases.
# [16:18] <Travis> markv: Original proposal was done in the IG's task force.
# [16:18] <Travis> paulc: It would be very useful to figure out how to bridge the gulf between the tech spec and the use cases.
# [16:18] <Travis> ... moving on..
# [16:18] <ddorwin1> updated figure: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#introduction
# [16:19] <Travis> ddorwin1: compaint that it wasn't clear what happens to the decrypted frame.
# [16:19] <Travis> ... updated it this week.
# [16:19] <Travis> ... clarified in the graphic in the spec.
# [16:19] <Travis> ... the frames (where they go) is up to the CDM.
# [16:20] <Travis> paulc: graphic is more up-to-date than the prose?
# [16:20] <Travis> ddorwin1: yes.
# [16:20] <Travis> paulc: There is work to do to make the prose match the diagram.
# [16:20] <Travis> ddorwin1: overview doc was [tried to be] passed off to the IG
# [16:21] <markw> proposed text to clarify frame handling is here: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16544
# [16:21] <Travis> ddorwin1: For EME: we could put a static key type api.
# [16:21] <matt> q?
# [16:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:21] <Travis> ... For this group, do we leave canPlayType?
# [16:21] <Cyril> q+
# [16:21] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [16:21] <markw> q+
# [16:21] * Zakim sees Cyril, markw on the speaker queue
# [16:22] <Travis> ack cyril
# [16:22] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:22] <matt> ack next
# [16:22] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [16:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:22] * matt whoops
# [16:22] <matt> q+ markw
# [16:22] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:22] * matt will stop trying to manage queue
# [16:22] <Travis> cyril: will the encryption system be different depending on the media type?
# [16:22] <Travis> ddorwin1: Encryption techinque depends on the container.
# [16:22] <Travis> ... real question: can this key system support ISO common encryption.
# [16:22] <Travis> ... does this UA have a key system X, and does this UA support that?
# [16:23] <Travis> ... it's a matter of where it is in the API
# [16:23] <Travis> ack markv
# [16:23] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:23] <Travis> ack markw
# [16:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:24] <Travis> markw: A UA might support codec A and keysystem B, but not not support the combination.
# [16:24] <adrianba> q?
# [16:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:24] <adrianba> q+
# [16:24] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [16:24] <Travis> ddorwin1: It's a matter of where you want to ask the question.
# [16:24] <Travis> markw: If you ask the full combination than that's fine.
# [16:24] <Travis> ack adrianba
# [16:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:25] <Travis> adrianba: Wondering what's the compatibility of the container format with the key system.
# [16:25] <Travis> ... canPlayType on the media element will give us the vague response.
# [16:25] <Travis> ... if we move it to MSE, then it might be the same good answer for EME.
# [16:26] * Travis make sure folks are happy with the minutes.
# [16:26] * Travis :)
# [16:26] <Travis> paulc: Onto item 4.
# [16:26] <Zakim> +Clarke
# [16:26] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673 Bug 17673 - Define Initialization Data for implementations that choose to support the ISO Base Media File Format
# [16:26] * Travis loves matt for helping put links in.
# [16:26] * matt We are looking at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Nov/att-0006/EME_open_bugs_2012-11-1.html
# [16:27] * matt loves the love :)
# [16:27] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673
# [16:27] <Travis> ddorwin1: currently working on two containers, see two bugs on how to use those.
# [16:27] * Cyril html seems to be all about love :)
# [16:27] <Travis> ... question on how to handle ISO
# [16:28] <Travis> johnsimmons: structure of container guidelines for webM and ISO are the same
# [16:28] <Travis> ... what's the screen info, initializtion and events, etc.
# [16:28] <Travis> ... structure is the same
# [16:28] <Cyril> q+
# [16:28] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [16:28] <Travis> ... we decided to emphaises the common encryption detection scheme
# [16:29] <dsinger> q+ to say that we should say how to identify encryption in general
# [16:29] * Zakim sees Cyril, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [16:29] <Travis> ... replicates some of the info from the ISO 23001-7 spec
# [16:29] <Cyril> q-
# [16:29] * Zakim sees dsinger on the speaker queue
# [16:29] <Travis> ... expected to look up the details in the spec.
# [16:29] <Travis> ... most discussion has been on the initialization steps where most of the discussion has taken place.
# [16:30] * Joins: Clarke (~Clarke@public.cloak)
# [16:30] <Travis> ... [see bottom of the bug]
# [16:30] <ddorwin1> initData is a concatenated list of PSSH blocks
# [16:30] <markw> q+
# [16:30] * Zakim sees dsinger, markw on the speaker queue
# [16:31] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673#c4 Technical info from John
# [16:31] * Joins: craig_ (~craig@public.cloak)
# [16:31] <Travis> ... central issue is that this follows the commen ency spec. except the part about concatenating the pssh blocks
# [16:31] <adrianba> s/commen/common/
# [16:31] * Joins: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak)
# [16:31] <Travis> paulc: proposal is to put this into the spec.
# [16:31] <Travis> q?
# [16:31] * Zakim sees dsinger, markw on the speaker queue
# [16:31] <adrianba> q?
# [16:31] * Parts: rotsuya (~rotsuya@public.cloak) (rotsuya)
# [16:31] * Zakim sees dsinger, markw on the speaker queue
# [16:31] <Travis> ack dsinger
# [16:31] <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to say that we should say how to identify encryption in general
# [16:31] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:31] <Travis> dsinger: It's a little too specific.
# [16:31] * ddorwin1 is now known as ddorwin
# [16:31] <Travis> ... think we should have more generic text for other encryption seq.
# [16:32] <Travis> ... don't mind documenting how to handle common ecryp.
# [16:32] <matt> q?
# [16:32] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:32] <Travis> johnsimmons: I don't object, if someone provides common language.
# [16:32] <Cyril> such documentation should be in the ISO spec not in the EME spec
# [16:33] <Travis> paulc: dsinger and john will talk offline to come up with common text.
# [16:33] <dsinger> would prefer that the section was a little more layered, detecting encryption in general and how to handle it, and then encryption-system specific considerations
# [16:33] <matt> ack next
# [16:33] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [16:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:33] <Cyril> q+
# [16:33] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [16:33] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [16:33] <Travis> markw: when looking at track/sample depends on the box, but it also depends on looking at the flag.
# [16:34] <Travis> q?
# [16:34] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [16:34] <Travis> ack cyrill
# [16:34] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [16:34] * Joins: Judy_clone (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [16:34] * adrianba markw - could you type that into IRC
# [16:34] <Travis> cyrill: is really the job's group to document MP4 format?
# [16:35] <Travis> markw: you have to translate to ISO format to the language in this spec.
# [16:35] <adrianba> q?
# [16:35] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [16:35] <adrianba> q+
# [16:35] * Zakim sees Cyril, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [16:35] <adrianba> ack next
# [16:35] * Zakim sees Cyril at the head of the speaker queue
# [16:35] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [16:35] <Travis> ... you could say it's informative, otherwise someone might concluded that if the sample group is encrypted than the whole thing is encrypted.
# [16:35] * Quits: naomi (naomi@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [16:36] <Travis> cyril: we should make sure we identify what's normative versus what isn't.
# [16:36] <matt> q?
# [16:36] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [16:36] <Travis> ack adrianba
# [16:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:36] * Joins: rubylin (~rubylin@public.cloak)
# [16:36] <adrianba> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#containers Informative container information
# [16:36] * matt Travis, if you're ever unsure of the name of who is next just say 'ack next' and it'll do a pop
# [16:37] <markw> my point was that as well as the track level default (Track Encryption Box) and sample group level default there is also a per sample flag indicating whether a sample is encrypted
# [16:37] <Travis> adrianba: I think the spec's clear about how the mapping happens.
# [16:37] <Travis> ... if you choose to support a format, then you should do it per spec so that it is interoperable.
# [16:37] <markw> q+
# [16:37] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:37] <Travis> ack next
# [16:37] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [16:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:38] * Quits: leetv (~leetv@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:38] * Quits: leetv2 (~leetv2@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:38] <Travis> q+ markw
# [16:38] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:38] <Travis> adrianba: there's a css bug that makes it look wrong
# [16:39] <Travis> paulc: johnsimmons proposed text is to be non-normative
# [16:39] <Travis> ack next
# [16:39] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [16:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:39] * Quits: hitoshi_ (~hitoshi@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:39] <Travis> markw: I think the termonology mapping should be normative. An encryped block in the text means a sample.
# [16:40] * Joins: leetv (~leetv@public.cloak)
# [16:40] <Travis> paulc: the part you want to be normative is the mapping right?
# [16:40] * Joins: leetv2 (~leetv2@public.irc.w3.org)
# [16:40] <Travis> adrianba: I want to think about that. We're trying to make the text solve that, but without normative reqs for a particular format.
# [16:40] <Travis> ... we want to say "it's a must to do it this way, if you do it this way"
# [16:41] <Travis> ... I have some concerns, as I said. We'll continue that discussion, just not today.
# [16:41] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17682 Bug 17682 - Clear Key: Document how keys and key IDs are associated
# [16:41] <adrianba> we need to fix the spec to ensure the "non-normative" appears correctly across browsers
# [16:42] * matt already got it paulc
# [16:42] <Travis> ddorwin1: In the original spec, addKey() had two params... it worked well for webM, but doesn't scale for having multipel keys at a time.
# [16:42] <Travis> ... for clearkey, was a problem
# [16:43] <Travis> johnsimmons: wanted clearkey to be handled by a CDM
# [16:43] <hbang> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [16:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [16:43] <Travis> ... [explains clearkey vs drm systems]
# [16:44] <Travis> ... The inconsistency is: it was unclear when all that was being passed was a key.
# [16:44] <Travis> ... clearkey needed some kind of initData with keyid key pair.
# [16:45] <Travis> ... I proposed using RFC 6030, another propsal using JSON was also suggested.
# [16:45] <markw> q+
# [16:45] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:45] <Travis> ... my text in the bug is to ref one or the other of the container specs.
# [16:45] <mjs> q+
# [16:45] * Zakim sees markw, mjs on the speaker queue
# [16:45] * Joins: hitoshi_ (~hitoshi@public.irc.w3.org)
# [16:45] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17682#c6 MarkW's proposal using JSON
# [16:45] <matt> s/JSON/JSON Web Key/
# [16:45] <Travis> ... and to change the text for clearkey CDN that you would use these containers.
# [16:46] <Travis> ... we also want examples for ISO and webM cases with a presumed same container.
# [16:46] <mjs> q-
# [16:46] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:46] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:46] <Johnsimmons> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17682
# [16:46] * Travis scribe's brain is hurting.
# [16:46] * matt I've been trying to keep bug list pointers
# [16:46] * Quits: trackbot (trackbot@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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# [16:46] <adrianba> q?
# [16:46] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:47] <Travis> Markw: JSON webkey doesn't yet support this.
# [16:47] * Quits: sylvain (~sylvaing@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:47] <Travis> ... it would be trivial for it to support symetric keys, but it doesn't yet.
# [16:47] <matt> ack next
# [16:47] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [16:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:47] * Quits: Travis (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak) ("CGI:IRC")
# [16:48] * Joins: Travis (~5bd9a8dc@public.cloak)
# [16:48] <Travis> johnsimmons: I prefer a JSON solution.
# [16:48] * Joins: lmasinter (~user@public.cloak)
# [16:48] * matt wow, Travis is scribing from CGI:IRC? gah. I think the newer http://irc.w3.org is roughly 17 million times better.
# [16:48] <Travis> paulc: propose that the editors add the proposal from mark
# [16:49] * Quits: Judy_clone (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:49] * Joins: naomi (naomi@public.cloak)
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# [16:49] <Travis> markw: put a referenece in the appendix and get something into an IANA registery.
# [16:49] <Travis> paulc: ... and when it's ready, you can put the link to the registry.
# [16:50] <Travis> paulc: John's outline, with mark's solution is the path forward
# [16:50] <Travis> q?
# [16:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:50] <Travis> markv: also prefer that solution, but there's a dependency that could hurt our agressive schedule.
# [16:51] <Travis> paulc: for mimetypes to they get pulled out of the appendix section of the spec up till CR...
# [16:51] <Travis> ... then from CR->PR and upon registry, then it can come out (very late)
# [16:51] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [16:51] * Joins: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak)
# [16:52] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17470 Bug 17470 - Provide specific guidance on when generateKeyRequest should be called
# [16:52] <Travis> paulc: looking at bug 17470
# [16:52] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17660 Bug 17660 - need token relative with user identity for a new generateKeyRequest parameter
# [16:52] <Travis> ddorwin: next bug is 17660
# [16:53] <Travis> ... provides an optional param for user identify
# [16:53] * Joins: Judy_clone (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [16:53] <Travis> ... the app should handle the identification.
# [16:53] <Travis> ... got a request to reopen.
# [16:53] <Travis> ... to use the keyrequest as a trusted transport stream.
# [16:53] <Travis> ... that's not what it was intended to be used for.
# [16:54] <Travis> paulc: Sees that Joe's not here. We shouldn't make a decision without his input.
# [16:54] <Travis> ddorwin: would like to have a discussion?
# [16:55] <Travis> ... init data doesn't provide any other means of putting licence data into the request.
# [16:55] <Travis> ... there's no other way to provide a secure channel as it's coming from JS directly anyway.
# [16:55] <Travis> ... Joe came up with an alternative way to do this.
# [16:55] <markw> q+
# [16:55] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [16:56] <Travis> ack next
# [16:56] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [16:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:56] <matt> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Oct/0082.html mail on 17660 from Joe Steele
# [16:56] <Travis> markw: in the threads there are two proposals.
# [16:56] <Travis> .. the first ask was ambiguous, they both come down to having an add'n param for createSession.
# [16:56] <Travis> ... one reason is to piggyback app messages to the server.
# [16:57] <Travis> ... the other proposal is for keysystem dependend.
# [16:57] <Travis> ... the app would need to know about the keysystem
# [16:57] <Travis> ... I don't think we need either one.
# [16:57] <adrianba> q+
# [16:57] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [16:57] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
# [16:57] <markw> q-
# [16:57] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [16:57] <Travis> ... good to hear from anyone else?
# [16:57] <Travis> ack next
# [16:57] * Zakim sees adrianba at the head of the speaker queue
# [16:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:58] <Travis> adrianba: I'm not the person looking to support those. On the contrary, in the case of providing data to be packaged to the server--we definately do not want to support that.
# [16:59] <Travis> ... on the second point, providing addn'l data, we agree with markw that it shouldn't be necessary and our implementation wouldn't use it if it was there.
# [16:59] <Travis> paulc: Again, since Martin/Joe is not here, we should reply back to the bug noting the conversation here at TPAC.
# [17:00] <Travis> martin: I still believe it's useful to have that data sent.
# [17:01] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:01] <Travis> paulc: classic question for v1 spec -- is it necessary?
# [17:01] <Travis> ... we'll need to find consensus
# [17:01] <adrianba> martin said that he thinks it is useful because it avoids requiring the network transport to be a secure channel
# [17:01] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:01] * Quits: marilyn (msiderwicz@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
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# [17:02] <markw> you can avoid using a secure transport channel by using a secure application protocol, for which you could consider using the WebCrpyto APIs
# [17:02] * Travis paulc's clock seems to be on Redmond time.
# [17:02] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:03] <ddorwin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17203
# [17:03] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17203 Bug 17203 - Should session ID be required?
# [17:03] * matt no problem ddorwin, it seems like we're going in order, so I'll try to be quicker.
# [17:03] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak)
# [17:03] <Travis> adrianba: session id was added to correlate key message events to add key responses (before refactoring of the API)
# [17:04] <Travis> ... with the changes to the spec, new question: what is the session id for?
# [17:04] <Travis> ... and should it be always required?
# [17:04] <Travis> ... we probably want to tie this to markw key release question.
# [17:04] <Travis> ... we're wondering if this is optional or manditory?
# [17:05] <Travis> ... the reason this has been kept alive, it's not a big overhead to have an incrementing int.
# [17:05] <Travis> ... if everyone implements it this way, is that really all that useful?
# [17:05] <Travis> ddorwin: if we have it, it should be mandatory. Can't say how useful it is without key release.
# [17:06] <Travis> adrianba: question for markw
# [17:06] <Travis> ... I recall you describing use cases for a session id related to key message, so that you could capture telemetry about the session from the app's logic
# [17:06] <Travis> ... could you elaborate?
# [17:06] <matt> q?
# [17:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:07] <Travis> markw: Not sure if can elaborage, but that use case is now covered by the OO API. I now get an object, so I can hang stuff off the object.
# [17:07] <Travis> ... (for as long as that object is alive)
# [17:07] <Travis> ... we'd still like to have it because you may come back hours or days later to recover the object, and you'd need something to refer to it.
# [17:08] <ddorwin> q+
# [17:08] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:08] <Travis> paulc: Is that enough motiviation to have session id?
# [17:08] <adrianba> q?
# [17:08] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:08] <adrianba> q+
# [17:08] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [17:08] <matt> ack next
# [17:08] * Zakim sees ddorwin at the head of the speaker queue
# [17:08] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [17:08] * Quits: kinji (~kinji@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:09] <Travis> ddorwin: there may not be use cases unless they were doing keyrelease...
# [17:09] <markw> s/elaborage/elaborate/
# [17:09] <Travis> ... another option to explore (testing the waters...) if the session id read/write it for various reasons... they don't need it from the key system.
# [17:09] <Travis> paulc: Makes me wonder if this is then mandatory for v1.
# [17:10] <Travis> adrianba: we should propose that this issue be part of the secure key release discussion.
# [17:10] * Quits: mdahlstrand (~mdahlstrand@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:10] * Travis gets a gold star.
# [17:10] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18531 Bug 18531 - Consider renaming addKey method
# [17:11] <Travis> ddorwin: originaly you use addkey to provide a licence. There's other cases for adding keys/changing keys, etc.
# [17:11] <Travis> ... proposals to change the name since it's not always a key.
# [17:11] <Travis> ... we settled on "update" no one liked it, but it was the best we had.
# [17:11] * Quits: Masahito (~Masahito@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:11] <Travis> ... any objections?
# [17:11] * Quits: wiltzius (~wiltzius@public.cloak) (wiltzius)
# [17:11] <Travis> paulc: any comments?
# [17:11] <Travis> [ no comments]
# [17:12] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17199 Bug 17199 - Provide examples for and get feedback on Key Release
# [17:12] <Travis> markw: looking at the last comment.
# [17:12] <matt> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17199#c8 Mark's proposal
# [17:12] <hbang> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [17:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [17:12] <Travis> ... we had text in the original version, then we removed it for the OO API.
# [17:13] <Travis> ... a message attests that the key was destroyed
# [17:13] <Travis> ... use case is that an accurate record of how many streams the user has in progress at one time.
# [17:13] * Joins: mdahlstrand (~mdahlstrand@public.cloak)
# [17:13] <Travis> ... we don't want you to have a thousand streams at once for subscription service.
# [17:14] <Travis> ... for EME the CDN creates these messages (origin specific).
# [17:14] <Travis> ... Need to store these messages, and you might send to the server.
# [17:14] <Travis> ... this can fail.
# [17:14] <Travis> ... need a signal from the server saying "yes I did recieve it"
# [17:15] <Travis> ... hense the requirement for the session id.
# [17:15] <Travis> ... then there are details on how to get the key release messagae.
# [17:16] <Travis> ... other case in 4.3 the media key is destroyed for another reason. We'd like to be able to see the keyrelease message relyably delivered.
# [17:16] <Travis> ... we know this may not be 100% of the time, but in practice, if a large percentage of these messages are recieved the server can mop up the rest.
# [17:17] <Travis> ... now in 4.5, proceedures for checking for stored messages on return to the app
# [17:17] <Travis> ... will create a media key session associated with the old state.
# [17:17] * Quits: craig_ (~craig@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:17] <Travis> ... skipping a few step details...
# [17:18] <Travis> paulc: any questions?
# [17:18] <Travis> ... proposed replacement text for the bug resolution.
# [17:18] <Travis> ... any objections?
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# [17:18] <Travis> ddorwin: heard concerns about how you'd implement this.
# [17:18] <Travis> ... you'd need to save these to disk. Not sure if CNS would want to do this.
# [17:19] <Travis> ... and how to handle the 'navigate away' case. Not sure this system would be useful if that case isn't solved.
# [17:19] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("always accept cookies")
# [17:19] <Travis> markw: on the first point (storage) the CDN needs some kind of storage. Either they support it or not.
# [17:19] <Travis> ... on the issue of browser-close--this is just an implementation challenge for UA.
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# [17:20] <Travis> ... just another example of the general issue of responding to server without blocking the UA.
# [17:20] <Travis> ... Same problem as sync-XHR.
# [17:20] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:20] <Travis> ... would love an alternative to closing a session without hanging up the UI thread.
# [17:21] <Travis> paulc: when the person navigates and it blocks.
# [17:21] <Travis> ... what's the UA behavior.
# [17:21] <Travis> markw: it blocks.
# [17:21] <Travis> ddorwin: ideas have been proposed about having it be synchronous.
# [17:21] <Travis> ... browsers are trending toward making things faster.
# [17:22] <Travis> paulc: the server has all the info on the key sessions, and you'd like to clear it.
# [17:22] <Travis> markw: the server has state that thinks the client is streaming.
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# [17:23] <Travis> pal: keyrelease message is not exceptional (it's a common req.)
# [17:23] <Zakim> -Steve
# [17:23] <Travis> ddorwin: there could be value for keyrelease message in other scenarios. Not sure if the req. for fully-reliable keyrelease makes sense.
# [17:24] <Travis> ddorwin: there are alternative options available.
# [17:24] <Travis> paulc: markw do you see this as an optional feature?
# [17:24] <Travis> markw: [nods]
# [17:25] <Travis> paulc: so is this a V1?
# [17:25] <Travis> ... does anyone want to speak nay about adding this?
# [17:25] <adrianba> q+
# [17:25] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [17:25] <Travis> ddorwin: expiring licences and [other] are two other approaches
# [17:26] <Travis> ... you definately want to know when the licence is not being used anymore.
# [17:26] <Travis> ... we also have to make sure this is implementable.
# [17:26] * Quits: Stevef (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:26] <markw> q+
# [17:26] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
# [17:26] <Travis> paulc: are you suggesting we wait until an implementation?
# [17:26] <matt> ack next
# [17:26] * Zakim sees adrianba at the head of the speaker queue
# [17:26] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [17:26] <Travis> adrianba: I agree with ddorwin
# [17:27] <Travis> ... the think I'm concerned about is specing it, but having know one implement
# [17:27] <Travis> ... sounds like marking a feature at risk and then seeing what happens later.
# [17:27] <Travis> ... we should review the proposal, highlight risks, etc.
# [17:27] <Travis> ... I don't object to this being in the spec.
# [17:27] <Travis> ... I don't think it's likely that we would implement (at first)
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# [17:28] <Travis> ... If there are no implementation during our agressive schedule, then we probably wouldn't implement
# [17:28] <Travis> markw: heartbeats model required a lot of interactions on the server, increasing the reqs. on the server.
# [17:29] <matt> ack next
# [17:29] * Zakim sees markw at the head of the speaker queue
# [17:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:29] <Travis> .... big difference on the server avaialbility (scalability)
# [17:29] <Travis> ... on browsers wanting to make shut-down faster, would love browser maker feedback.
# [17:29] <Travis> ... there are limits. You'd have to remove sync-xhr.
# [17:30] <Travis> ... it would be really valuable to remove sync-xhr, but don't break apps.
# [17:30] <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [17:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html matt
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# [17:30] * Travis suggests just "hiding" the tab, then slowing shutting down :)
# [17:30] <ddorwin> topic: MediaKeys attachment is a method instead of property
# [17:30] <matt> s/topic:/issue:/
# [17:30] * matt otherwise it'll end up as an <h2> and a new spot in the ToC.
# [17:30] <adrianba> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#dom-keys
# [17:31] <ddorwin> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#extensions
# [17:31] <Travis> adrianba: the model is to associate a media keys collection to a media element, we have a key attribute
# [17:31] <Travis> ... attribute MediaKeys keys;
# [17:32] <Travis> ... when you call the setter of keys, it makes the connection.
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# [17:32] <Travis> ... (the bug we didn't get to asks where that binding means only one element maps to one key)
# [17:32] <Travis> ... problem is that it's not obvious (since it's a property) that there is processing that happens.
# [17:33] <Travis> .... I propose making this a method.
# [17:33] <Travis> ... also make the mediaKeys keys attribute be readonly for clarity that setting it is an active process.
# [17:33] <Travis> paulc: any reactions?
# [17:33] <Travis> ddorwin: "Make it so" TM
# [17:33] <Travis> paulc: Adrianba to open a bug to fix it.
# [17:34] <Travis> ddorwin: Media keys can be made and assigned to an element.
# [17:34] <Travis> ... it would also be bad for DOM tree ownership.
# [17:34] <Travis> ... I think this (single ownership) is a must.
# [17:35] <Travis> ... should have errors, etc., in order to make it so.
# [17:35] <Zakim> -BobLund
# [17:35] <Travis> paulc: Chair secret--let the WG out early.
# [17:35] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [17:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [17:35] * Judy_clone is now known as Judy
# [17:35] * Travis oops--shoudn't have minuted that....
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# [17:36] <Travis> paulc: current plan is that draft charter for EME will have not specific schedule (same for MSE)
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# [17:37] <Travis> artb: If folks want to take these specs and run with them, that's awesome! having too many timescales can lead to problems later on.
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# [17:38] <Zakim> -Clarke
# [17:38] <adrianba> i think a similar timeline for EME and MSE is appropriate
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# [17:38] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [17:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
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# [17:38] <Travis> paulc: calls for a recess until tomorrow.
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# [17:39] <Zakim> -Rhone_3
# [17:39] <Zakim> HTML_WG()4:00AM has ended
# [17:39] <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_3, Steve, Cynthia_Shelly, BobLund, Clarke
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# [17:43] <Travis> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [17:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html Travis
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# [17:54] <MikeSmith> trackbot, status?
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# [23:56] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# Session Close: Fri Nov 02 00:00:01 2012

The end :)