/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2012-11-02 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Nov 02 00:00:01 2012
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:05] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 3 new commits to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/42cafdc36c72...b7a8a7561bf2
# [00:05] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg 44de111 ianh: [giow] (3) Try to get a little closer to browsers....
# [00:05] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg fa5f20c ianh: [giow] (3) Another attempt at defining tabindex, :disabled, what can be focused, etc....
# [00:05] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg b7a8a75 ianh: [giow] (2) Storage.getItem() can return null....
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# [01:05] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 1 new commit to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/a66eb4f72165eb6101f9c7f09f3deccfa6133c18
# [01:05] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg a66eb4f ianh: [ac] (3) Define a syntax for comments in WebVTT (doesn't affect parsers)...
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# [03:05] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 1 new commit to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/3c4747eae0785de87cc4626d37ab2526b81724e3
# [03:05] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg 3c4747e ianh: [e] (0) Fix some typos or copypasta....
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# [08:54] <paulc> Present+ Paul Cotton
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# [08:55] <paulc> rrsagent, make minutes
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# [08:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
# [08:55] <Magnus_Olsson> present+ Magnus_Olsson
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# [08:55] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [08:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
# [08:55] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
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# [08:55] <fsasaki> present+ felix_sasaki
# [08:55] <Jirka> Present+Jirka_Kosek
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# [08:56] <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [08:56] <Zakim> sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is
# [08:56] <Zakim> On IRC I see dF, Clemens, SebastianS, hbang, jyp, fumitakaW, acolwell, nkic, Ankit, Zakim, jens, Magnus_Olsson, MikeSmith, daveL, Fredrik, paulc, pnietoca, sakkuru, Ruinan,
# [08:56] <Zakim> ... gilesg-b, matthiasK_, renatb, mdelolmo, DomJones, kfritsche, mhellwig
# [08:56] <Ankit> present+ Ankit_Srivastava
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# [08:56] <MikeSmith> title: HTML WG f2f
# [08:56] <dF> present+ dF
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# [08:57] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
# [08:57] <MikeSmith> present+ MikeSmith
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# [08:57] <MikeSmith> agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2012
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# [08:58] <MikeSmith> Topic: MultilingualWeb-LT
# [08:58] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [08:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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# [08:59] <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [08:59] <Zakim> sorry, adrianba, I don't know what conference this is
# [08:59] <Zakim> On IRC I see Mark_Vickers, leroyfinn, kotakagi, Milan, yamaday, dsinger, kinji_, edoyle, dromasca, Arno, mjs, nsakai, Marcis_Pinnis, dF, Clemens, SebastianS, hbang, jyp, fumitakaW,
# [08:59] <Zakim> ... acolwell, nkic, Ankit, Zakim, jens, Magnus_Olsson, MikeSmith
# [08:59] <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [08:59] <Zakim> sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is
# [08:59] <Zakim> On IRC I see Mark_Vickers, leroyfinn, kotakagi, Milan, yamaday, dsinger, kinji_, edoyle, dromasca, Arno, mjs, nsakai, Marcis_Pinnis, dF, Clemens, SebastianS, hbang, jyp, fumitakaW,
# [08:59] <Zakim> ... acolwell, nkic, Ankit, Zakim, jens, Magnus_Olsson, MikeSmith
# [08:59] <adrianba> zakim, this will be HTML_WG()
# [08:59] <Zakim> ok, adrianba; I see HTML_WG()4:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
# [08:59] <Mark_Vickers> present+ Mark_Vickers
# [08:59] <paulc> zakim, call rhone_3
# [08:59] <Zakim> ok, paulc; the call is being made
# [08:59] <Zakim> HTML_WG()4:00AM has now started
# [08:59] <Zakim> +Rhone_3
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# [09:00] <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [09:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3
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# [09:00] <MikeSmith> meeting: HTML WG f2f
# [09:00] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [09:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [09:00] <MikeSmith> Paul reviews the agenda http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2012
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# [09:00] <MikeSmith> plan is to discuss MultilingualWeb-LT, i18n bugs in the morning
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# [09:01] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [09:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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# [09:01] <MikeSmith> Chair: Paul, Maciej
# [09:01] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [09:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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# [09:02] <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/File:Its20-html5-tpac2012.pdf
# [09:02] <MikeSmith> paulc: we have some friends here from the MultilingualWeb-LT WG
# [09:03] <MikeSmith> fsasaki steps up to the mic
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# [09:04] <MikeSmith> MLW-LT WG members stand up -- 10+ people here
# [09:04] <MikeSmith> fsasaki on slide 2 of his presentation
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# [09:05] <MikeSmith> slide 3 shows example documents
# [09:06] <Jirka> More examples are in editor's draft at http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html
# [09:06] <MikeSmith> fsasaki: "translate" is now a native HTML attribute
# [09:07] <MikeSmith> slide 4 shows more examples
# [09:07] <MikeSmith> fsasaki: this shows one of the hyphenated its attributes
# [09:07] <MikeSmith> slide 5 has some links
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# [09:07] <MikeSmith> fsasaki: Frederick will show some demos
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> fsasaki: we want to go to LC in November
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> … and have validator support when we go to LC
# [09:09] <MikeSmith> … we want feedback on this section "How to use ITS metadata in HTML" by end of November
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# [09:09] <MikeSmith> … I wanted to make you aware of that plan
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# [09:09] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [09:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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# [09:09] <MikeSmith> Fredrik at the decks now
# [09:09] <fsasaki> speaker is frederik linden from enlaso
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# [09:10] <MikeSmith> Frederik describing use cases
# [09:10] <tomoyuki> Present+ Tomoyuki_Shimizu
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> describing filters design, processing through "ITS engine"
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# [09:11] <fsasaki> frederiks slides are at http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/File:Some_Use_Cases_with_the_Current_Okapi_Framework_Implementation_of_ITS_2.0%28Yves_Savourel-2012-09-25%29.pptx
# [09:11] <MikeSmith> now describing "Translation Package Creation" slide
# [09:11] <fsasaki> (sorry, currently ppt only, pdf will come later)
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# [09:12] <MikeSmith> describing benefits
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# [09:13] <fsasaki> here slides in pdf http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/File:Some_Use_Cases_with_the_Current_Okapi_Framework_Implementation_of_ITS_2.0%28Yves_Savourel-2012-09-25%29.pdf
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# [09:14] <MikeSmith> we enter the demonstration
# [09:14] <MikeSmith> showing "Rainbow" implementation
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# [09:17] <MikeSmith> fsasaki: there are other use cases described in our document but we just wanted to show you this one demo for now
# [09:18] <MikeSmith> … main thing we want is your feedback
# [09:18] <MikeSmith> q?
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# [09:18] <MikeSmith> paulc: let's go around the room and see if anybody has any questions
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# [09:18] * MikeSmith Jirka you planning to talk about validator support?
# [09:19] <MikeSmith> paulc: fsasaki you pointed us at your document
# [09:19] <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/File:Its20-html5-tpac2012.pdf
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# [09:20] <JonathanJ1> Present+ Jonathan_Jeon
# [09:20] <MikeSmith> paulc: fsasaki are there any particular parts that you yourself are concerned about? that you may or may not have got right?
# [09:21] <MikeSmith> paulc: the group is large and so it's been difficult to get consensus for comments on other group's specs
# [09:21] <MikeSmith> … so it's more likely that you'll get individual comments
# [09:21] <mjs> q+
# [09:21] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [09:21] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#html5-markup
# [09:22] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [09:22] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_3
# [09:22] * Joins: jkiss (~jkiss@public.cloak)
# [09:22] <MikeSmith> mjs: these ITS extensions to HTML, are they intended to be in actual HTML content that is published over the Web?
# [09:22] <MikeSmith> … or are they intended for internal use?
# [09:22] * Joins: Yongrok (~Yongrok@public.irc.w3.org)
# [09:22] <MikeSmith> Jirka: content published over the Web?
# [09:23] <MikeSmith> mjs: so 3rd-party tools will consume this?
# [09:23] <MikeSmith> Jirka: yeah
# [09:23] * hober why can't i find the "the validator should be ok with its-* attrs in html content" bug? i know there is one. not enough coffee yet to deal with bugzilla i guess
# [09:23] * Joins: shoko (~shoko@public.irc.w3.org)
# [09:23] * Joins: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak)
# [09:23] * mjs hober what component was it in?
# [09:23] * darobin does one ever have enough coffee to deal with bugzilla?
# [09:23] <MikeSmith> cameronjones: is this something that's going to be integrated with HTML itself?
# [09:24] * hober i can't remember if it was the html wg component or one of the validator components
# [09:24] <MikeSmith> Jirka: similar to say, style attribute in HTML. Can use CSS selectors or XPath
# [09:24] <MikeSmith> cameronjones: what's the default?
# [09:24] <MikeSmith> Jirka: XPath
# [09:25] <MikeSmith> Jirka: default is to apply to complete subtree
# [09:25] <MikeSmith> fsasaki: about CSS selectors, we would like to have that support
# [09:25] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak)
# [09:26] * Joins: Fredrik (~Fredrik@public.irc.w3.org)
# [09:26] <MikeSmith> cjones: translation can be quite verbose, anything that can reduce that would be great
# [09:26] <fsasaki> fsasaki: but it is a feature at risk, so if you are interestd i that, please contact us for aslo implementations - thanks
# [09:26] <MikeSmith> … looks like it will help to reduce that verbosity
# [09:26] <MikeSmith> q+
# [09:26] * Zakim sees mjs, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [09:26] * Quits: DomJones (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [09:26] * Quits: Milan (~Milan@public.cloak) (Milan)
# [09:27] <hbang> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [09:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [09:27] <darobin> - new dir values
# [09:27] <darobin> - concerns with ruby
# [09:27] <darobin> - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15278 Adding Islamic calendar support in HTML5
# [09:27] <MikeSmith> paulc thanks the MLW-LT WG for joining us this morning
# [09:27] <darobin> - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16965 i18n-ISSUE-97: Allowing a page to request a given locale (4.10.7.2 normativity)
# [09:28] * Quits: renatb (~renatb@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:28] * Quits: kfritsche (~kfritsche@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:28] <MikeSmith> the W3C Nu validator and validator.nu now already have support for ITS attributes, btw
# [09:28] <MikeSmith> Topic: i18n bugs
# [09:28] * Joins: Milan (~Milan@public.cloak)
# [09:28] <mjs> q-
# [09:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [09:28] * Joins: DomJones (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [09:28] <MikeSmith> q?
# [09:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [09:28] <MikeSmith> q-
# [09:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:28] * Parts: DomJones (~Adium@public.cloak) (DomJones)
# [09:28] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [09:28] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [09:28] * Parts: mdelolmo (~mdelolmo@public.irc.w3.org)
# [09:29] * Quits: pnietoca (~pnietoca@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [09:29] * Joins: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak)
# [09:29] * Joins: cjones (~cjones@public.irc.w3.org)
# [09:29] <MikeSmith> darobin gives an overview
# [09:29] <cjones> preent +cjones
# [09:29] * Quits: Yongrok (~Yongrok@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:29] <cjones> present +cjones
# [09:29] <MikeSmith> r12a: want to set the scene first
# [09:29] * Quits: mhellwig (~mhellwig@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:29] <Norbert> present+ Norbert_Lindenberg
# [09:30] <MikeSmith> … I will take about bi-directional text aka BIDI
# [09:30] * Quits: Ankit (~Ankit@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [09:30] <cjones> present+ cjones
# [09:30] * Joins: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak)
# [09:30] * Quits: leroyfinn (~leroyfinn@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:30] <MikeSmith> r12a: imagine you have a data feed that provides info about restaurants
# [09:30] * Quits: matthiasK_ (~matthiasK@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:30] * Parts: Marcis_Pinnis (~Marcis_Pinnis@public.irc.w3.org)
# [09:31] <MikeSmith> … including the name of the restaurant and some stars to show a rating
# [09:31] * Joins: pal (~pal@public.cloak)
# [09:31] <MikeSmith> r12a: there are cases where you need to isolate a word from the surrounding text
# [09:32] <MikeSmith> r12a: the isolation issue is really important when you don't know the directionality of the surrounding text but it's *also* important even when you do know
# [09:32] <MikeSmith> r12a: the Unicode Consortium is going to introduce some new character codes to address this
# [09:33] <MikeSmith> … and the CSS specifications are going to be updated to address this
# [09:33] <MikeSmith> … and the Unicode Consortium is going to be saying that isolation should be use by default
# [09:34] <MikeSmith> r12a: there are some limitations with current solutions the authors have been using
# [09:34] <MikeSmith> r12a: so we arrive at the bdi element
# [09:35] <MikeSmith> … it creates problems for templating and other things
# [09:35] <MikeSmith> r12a: so it would be much simpler if we could just use the dir attribute
# [09:35] <MikeSmith> … with new values
# [09:35] <hsivonen> q+
# [09:35] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [09:35] <MikeSmith> … say "rli" and "lri"
# [09:35] <fantasai> s/other things/other things, because it splits information across two elements where not necessary/
# [09:35] <MikeSmith> r12a: we are not asking for the bdi element to be replaced
# [09:35] * Quits: SungOk_You (~SungOk_You@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:36] <MikeSmith> … because the bdi element still has some other use cases
# [09:36] * Joins: SungOk_You (~SungOk_You@public.irc.w3.org)
# [09:36] <MikeSmith> r12a: what we're proposing would make it easier for authors
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so considering adding values to the dir attribute, wouldn't that make the new values fall back to left-to-right in older attributes?
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> … what about adding a new attribute instead?
# [09:37] <paulc> ack Hsi
# [09:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> r12a: we want people to stop using ltr and rtl actually
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> … we realize there will be a bit of a difficult transition peried
# [09:37] <mjs> q+
# [09:37] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [09:38] <MikeSmith> … but authors can address that by using some CSS to address older browsers vs newer browsers
# [09:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, makes sense
# [09:38] * Parts: fsasaki (fsasaki@public.cloak)
# [09:38] <MikeSmith> mjs: if you want to deprecate use of the old values and have a combined thing, you can introduce a new attribute, say "isolation" (though maybe a shorter name)
# [09:39] <MikeSmith> … it's usually not a good idea to require people to jump through huge hoops to deal with fallback
# [09:39] <paulc> ack mjs
# [09:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:39] <MikeSmith> mjs: I would strongly suggest that you consider a design for this that has good fallback
# [09:39] <MikeSmith> fantasai: the implementation in Mozilla for this would be one line of code, probably
# [09:40] <MikeSmith> r12a: people will need CSS anyway for bidi support
# [09:40] * Joins: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [09:40] * hober 47% packet loss :(
# [09:40] <MikeSmith> r12a: we want people to take this up, and use of the dir attribute makes that easier
# [09:40] <hsivonen> q+
# [09:40] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [09:40] <mjs> q+
# [09:40] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
# [09:40] <MikeSmith> r12a: about adding a new attribute, we would really like to get this in HTML5
# [09:40] <paulc> ack hs
# [09:40] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [09:40] <plh> q+
# [09:40] * Zakim sees mjs, plh on the speaker queue
# [09:40] * Quits: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [09:41] <MikeSmith> q+ to say adding new values to existing attributes should be considered the same as adding new attributes
# [09:41] * Zakim sees mjs, plh, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [09:41] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think the desire to get this into HTML5 is a terrible reason [for not using the best technical solution]
# [09:41] <paulc> ack mjs
# [09:41] * Zakim sees plh, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [09:41] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
# [09:42] <plh> q-
# [09:42] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [09:42] <MikeSmith> mjs: this would be considered a new feature whether you do it as a new attribute or new values on an existing attribute
# [09:42] <plh> mjs made my point
# [09:42] <MikeSmith> … as far as our CR exit criteria
# [09:42] <paulc> ack mikes
# [09:42] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say adding new values to existing attributes should be considered the same as adding new attributes
# [09:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:42] <cjones> q+
# [09:42] * Zakim sees cjones on the speaker queue
# [09:42] <MikeSmith> ack MichaelC
# [09:42] * Zakim sees cjones on the speaker queue
# [09:42] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
# [09:42] * Zakim sees cjones on the speaker queue
# [09:43] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: mjs made my point too
# [09:43] <paulc> ack cj
# [09:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:43] <MikeSmith> r12a: what I am hearing is that we should develop an extension and that we should consider doing it some way other than adding new values to the dir attribute
# [09:44] <MikeSmith> cjones: deprecating ltr and rtl? good idea to do?
# [09:44] <MikeSmith> r12a: not sure yet
# [09:44] <paulc> - concerns with ruby
# [09:44] <paulc> Next item is - concerns with ruby
# [09:44] <MikeSmith> darobin: will require a few years time
# [09:44] <MikeSmith> Topic: Concerns with ruby markup
# [09:45] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@public.cloak)
# [09:45] <MikeSmith> fantasai: ruby markup is used with Chinese and Japanese content, to annotate the characters with their pronunciations
# [09:45] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [09:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [09:46] <MikeSmith> fantasai: there is "mono ruby" and "group ruby" and from a markup perspective, those are the same
# [09:46] * Joins: Joshue108 (~Joshue@public.cloak)
# [09:46] <MikeSmith> fantasai: we also have "jukugo ruby" which looks the same basically but is different for line breaking
# [09:46] <MikeSmith> … you have to know what the grouping is
# [09:47] <MikeSmith> … so that you don't break them in the wrong place (among other things)
# [09:47] <MikeSmith> fantasai: that XHTML WG came up with a bunch of elements
# [09:47] <MikeSmith> … the HTML WG came up with a simpler solution
# [09:47] <MikeSmith> fantasai: but aside from the number elements, the model for the two approaches are quite different
# [09:48] <MikeSmith> … it is a "column-based model" vs a "row-based model"
# [09:48] * Quits: Fredrik (~Fredrik@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [09:48] <MikeSmith> fantasai: is you are displaying the ruby text inline -- which has some use cases such as, say, display on a mobile phone
# [09:49] <hsivonen> q+
# [09:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [09:49] <MikeSmith> … Stuff like that is very easy if you have a row-based model
# [09:49] <MikeSmith> fantasai: that is a fallback issue, and important
# [09:49] <MikeSmith> fantasai: another case is double-sided ruby
# [09:50] <MikeSmith> … where you have annotations both above the character and below the character
# [09:50] * Joshue108 Is there a URI for todays html meeting agenda?
# [09:50] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:50] * Joins: george (~george@public.irc.w3.org)
# [09:50] <MikeSmith> fantasai: with HTML5 ruby markup you can deal with this by using two rt elements
# [09:50] * MikeSmith to Joshue108 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2012
# [09:51] * Joshue108 Thanks Mike!
# [09:51] <MikeSmith> fantasai: there are cases of double-sided ruby that you can't address just with multiple rt elements
# [09:51] <MikeSmith> … So the solution proposed for that has been to use "nested ruby"
# [09:51] <MikeSmith> … But there are problems with that
# [09:52] <MikeSmith> … One problem is that it amounts to having two different models
# [09:52] * Quits: george (~george@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [09:52] <MikeSmith> … And it requires different styling for nested ruby vs normal ruby
# [09:53] <MikeSmith> fantasai: so an additional thing that has not been considered is that there are cases where you have the possibility of running out of room for the annotations
# [09:53] <MikeSmith> … so that the annotations would end up overlapping
# [09:54] <MikeSmith> … these are things that have to be handled at the style layer
# [09:54] <MikeSmith> … so it's not a bunch of discrete boxes that don't know anything each other
# [09:54] * Quits: pal (~pal@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [09:54] * Joins: pal (~pal@public.cloak)
# [09:54] <MikeSmith> … you ideally need to know "what's in this box next to me"
# [09:55] * Quits: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [09:55] <MikeSmith> fantasai: I think the solution to all these problems is to go to a wholly row-based approach
# [09:55] <MikeSmith> … which is the same approach that's used for the simple ruby case in HTML5
# [09:55] * Parts: Milan (~Milan@public.cloak) (Milan)
# [09:55] <MikeSmith> fantasai: so you need an rb element
# [09:56] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [09:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [09:56] <r12a> q+
# [09:56] * Zakim sees hsivonen, r12a on the speaker queue
# [09:56] <MikeSmith> fantasai: plus an rtc element
# [09:57] <MikeSmith> … which addresses the spanning use case
# [09:57] <MikeSmith> … which current model cannot be used for
# [09:57] <MikeSmith> r12a: is can actually
# [09:57] <MikeSmith> paulc: status of the related bugs?
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> fantasai: Hixie hijacked the bug we had which was just about parsing and [tried to made it into be about something else]
# [10:00] <hober> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13113 ( and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17967 )
# [10:00] <paulc> ack hsi
# [10:00] * Zakim sees r12a on the speaker queue
# [10:00] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have three points -- two of my own and one channeling Hixie
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: first, is there actual statistics on how often a Japanese print reader encounter these various types of ruby? Daily? Once a week? Yearly?
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> fantasai: depends on which case you mean?
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> fantasai: jukugo ruby is quite common
# [10:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what does common mean in this case?
# [10:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: again, daily? weekly?
# [10:01] <MikeSmith> fantasai: Koji can answer that
# [10:02] <MikeSmith> koji: I don't have exact numbers
# [10:02] <MikeSmith> r12a: the jukugo ruby thing is not an issue -- you can achieve it by styling
# [10:02] <MikeSmith> r12a: the thing I think you were asking about more is double-sided ruby
# [10:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I was asking about all of them
# [10:03] <odinho_> Present+ Odin_Hoerthe_Omdal
# [10:03] <MikeSmith> … that you can prioritize their importance
# [10:03] <paulc> q?
# [10:03] * Zakim sees r12a on the speaker queue
# [10:03] * odinho_ RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [10:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html odinho_
# [10:04] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak)
# [10:04] <MikeSmith> r12a: I have had people come up to me from Amazon and others and tell me that they need double-sided ruby support
# [10:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: question two, was the case about fallback for legacy UAs or for the principle of semantics
# [10:05] <paulc> Note we still have 2 more items to discuss in this session:
# [10:05] <paulc> - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15278 Adding Islamic calendar support in HTML5
# [10:05] <MikeSmith> … Leading me to ask, in the case where you'd want it rendered inline with parenthesis, why don't you just mark it up with parenthesis?
# [10:05] <paulc> 2nd item is:
# [10:05] <paulc> - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16965 i18n-ISSUE-97: Allowing a page to request a given locale (4.10.7.2 normativity)
# [10:05] <MikeSmith> fantasai: responsive design is one case
# [10:05] <MikeSmith> darobin: like the case where you want to make the case more compact
# [10:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, last, I think Hixie's argument was about frequency of use
# [10:07] <MikeSmith> … and about implementor indifference. [The implementors should be focusing on implementing simple ruby before they implement complex ruby.]
# [10:07] <MikeSmith> fantasai: question is, why aren't we going with the model that enables extension more easily?
# [10:07] <r12a> http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby-use-cases/
# [10:07] * Quits: daveL (~daveL@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [10:08] <MikeSmith> r12a: the i18n WG did not yet get a lot of traction saying that we should be doing things differently
# [10:08] <MikeSmith> … Hixie has added double-sided support
# [10:08] <MikeSmith> darobin: we could the same thing that we are doing for other features
# [10:08] <MikeSmith> … we could flag the current model as "at risk" and publish an extension spec
# [10:09] <MikeSmith> paulc: is the double-sided support that Hixie came up with already in our CR draft?
# [10:09] <fantasai> http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/weblog/2011/ruby/
# [10:09] <MikeSmith> darobin: yes
# [10:10] * Quits: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak) (Norbert)
# [10:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: would the potential extension spec require a delta spec of the parser algorithm?
# [10:10] <MikeSmith> (discussion)
# [10:10] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [10:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so the answer seems to be that it's unknown at this time
# [10:11] * Quits: Stevef (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [10:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I am generally unhappy about the idea of multiple delta specs to the parser algorithm
# [10:11] <MikeSmith> … especially since we currently have the parsing algorithm implemented in all major browser engines
# [10:11] * Joins: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak)
# [10:11] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [10:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [10:11] <Norbert> q+
# [10:11] * Zakim sees r12a, Norbert on the speaker queue
# [10:12] * Quits: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [10:12] * Quits: Arno (~Arnaud@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [10:12] <MikeSmith> cjones: these two bugs are about the same thing
# [10:12] <hsivonen> q+
# [10:12] * Zakim sees r12a, Norbert, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [10:12] <MikeSmith> … Localization for this case is currently applied as a user setting
# [10:12] * Joins: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [10:12] <MikeSmith> cjones: user's preferred locale is what always ends up being used
# [10:12] * Joins: Arno (~Arnaud@public.cloak)
# [10:12] <fantasai> I agree with hsivonen's sentiment on the parser and would rather see the parser modified to not break potential extensions to ruby, and let the discussion on exactly how ruby is extended be independent of the parser
# [10:13] <MikeSmith> … this is a problem for multi-language documents. It provides no flexibility.
# [10:13] <fantasai> s/fallback for legacy UAs/fallback for legacy UAs, or responsive design,/
# [10:13] <MikeSmith> cjones: this should be seen as a form of translation rather than localization
# [10:13] <MikeSmith> … so maybe this could be controlled through the translate attribute
# [10:14] * Joins: SimonPieters (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [10:14] <paulc> ack r12a
# [10:14] * Zakim sees Norbert, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [10:14] <MikeSmith> … [translate attribute] is something for document consumers and not so much for user agents
# [10:14] <fantasai> s/responsive design is one case/all three are valid points. Fallback is not just for legacy UAs, but also newer layout engines for which ruby is not a high priority -- at least they can render something sensible. Reponsive design, but also to have markup independent of styling--the author has the choice to decide on a different rendering without going back and changing the markup./
# [10:14] <paulc> ack norbert
# [10:14] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [10:15] * Joins: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak)
# [10:15] <r12a> q+
# [10:15] * Zakim sees hsivonen, r12a on the speaker queue
# [10:15] <MikeSmith> Norbert: sometimes a page loads other components that are not in the same language
# [10:16] <MikeSmith> … So start from the element that you want to format, and check to see if it has inherited a language, and if not, then go back up to the user preference
# [10:16] * Joins: divya (~u1924@public.cloak)
# [10:16] <MikeSmith> cjones: the reason browsers have taken the approach they have is that typically users want to see something in their own language
# [10:16] <fantasai> i/fantasai: question is/fantasai: I'm not suggesting we have a model that does everything now/
# [10:16] * Quits: cjones (~cjones@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [10:17] <MikeSmith> … so they are in effect overriding the author preferences with the user preferences
# [10:17] <paulc> ack hsi
# [10:17] * Zakim sees r12a on the speaker queue
# [10:17] <MikeSmith> … but the problem with that is we provide no way to break out of that
# [10:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: browsers don't do right now what is already in the spec
# [10:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the spec already says what you want
# [10:18] <Norbert> q+
# [10:18] * Zakim sees r12a, Norbert on the speaker queue
# [10:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: we can't fix this by having the spec say, "UAs must must must must do this"
# [10:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: and adding new syntax is not going to make it any better
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# [10:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: it is completely unhelpful to munge pieces of a page into the language of the reader
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# [10:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: this is an artifact of the browser just trying to do one thing for the whole page vs trying to be helpful
# [10:21] <paulc> ack r12a
# [10:21] * Zakim sees Norbert on the speaker queue
# [10:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: and issue of having the browser ship with support for all possible languages [that some piece of a page might be in]
# [10:21] <MikeSmith> r12a: I am wondering about whether the lang attribute is the right thing to use for locale
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# [10:22] <MikeSmith> r12a: Cameron, what do you want to have done with these bugs? Why are we discussing them here today?
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# [10:22] <fantasai> s/for the simple ruby case in HTML5/for XHTML ruby/
# [10:22] <MikeSmith> cjones: there are always some dates that are pre-formatted by the server
# [10:22] <MikeSmith> … the problem already exists
# [10:23] <matt> q?
# [10:23] * Zakim sees Norbert on the speaker queue
# [10:23] <paulc> ack norbert
# [10:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [10:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the problem exists in implementations, it does not exist in the current spec text
# [10:23] <MikeSmith> Norbert: I don't agree that the problem does not exist in the spec
# [10:23] <Norbert> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#input-impl-notes
# [10:23] * Parts: janina (~janina@public.cloak) (janina)
# [10:23] <fantasai> i/fantasai: so you need an rb element/fantasai: You can have a create a model that is compatible with both the HTML5 simple ruby as well as a row-based approach for the other cases/
# [10:23] <MikeSmith> … some of the relevant text is non-normative
# [10:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so we can keep it non-normative for CR but make it normative after
# [10:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think it would make it normative, after CR,
# [10:25] <MikeSmith> s/it would make it normative/it would make sense to make it normative/
# [10:25] <paulc> Still pending - - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15278 Adding Islamic calendar support in HTML5
# [10:26] <MikeSmith> darobin: It seems like a resolution for this is to agree to make it normative after CR
# [10:26] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [10:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [10:27] <MikeSmith> r12a: come talk to me about bug 15278 later
# [10:28] <MikeSmith> darobin: a decent number of the remaining i18n bugs are editorial
# [10:28] <Norbert> q+
# [10:28] * Zakim sees Norbert on the speaker queue
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# [10:28] <MikeSmith> paulc: so r12a please work with darobin and the editors to deal with these bugs
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# [10:29] <darobin> ACTION: Robin to summarise I18N discussion and bugs, copy public-i18n
# [10:29] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [10:29] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find Robin. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [10:29] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [10:29] <MikeSmith> i/these two bugs are/Topic: i18n bugs/
# [10:29] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [10:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [10:29] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16959
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# [10:30] <MikeSmith> Norbert: is there any chance of renaming the "global time" and "local time" in the spec
# [10:31] <hober> i18n-ISSUE-88
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# [10:31] <MikeSmith> paulc: get together over coffee for that discussion
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# [10:31] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [10:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
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# [10:36] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Robin to summarise I18N discussion and bugs, copy public-i18n
# [10:36] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [10:36] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find Robin. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [10:36] * RRSAgent records action 6
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# [10:37] <MikeSmith> ACTION: darobin to summarise I18N discussion and bugs, copy public-i18n
# [10:37] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [10:37] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find darobin. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [10:37] * RRSAgent records action 7
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# [10:38] <MikeSmith> trackbot, status
# [10:38] * trackbot knows about these 31 users: Edward, Lachlan, Shawn, Larry, Michael[tm], Doug, Gregory, Philippe, Everett, Julian, Cynthia, Joshue, Glenn, Henri, Maciej, James, Adrian, Matthew, Richard, Ben, Frank, Kris, Manu, Sam, Michael, Ian, Paul, Janina, David, Steve, Jay
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# [10:40] <MikeSmith> trackbot, reload
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# [10:40] <MikeSmith> trackbot, bye
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# [10:40] <MikeSmith> ACTION: darobin to summarise I18N discussion and bugs, copy public-i18n
# [10:40] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [10:40] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [10:40] <trackbot> Created ACTION-224 - Summarise I18N discussion and bugs, copy public-i18n [on Robin Berjon - due 2012-11-09].
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# [10:58] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
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# [11:05] <matt> scribe: Matt
# [11:06] <matt> Topic: Preparing for CR and WG Status
# [11:07] <matt> paulc: We'll review objections, features at risk, CR exit criteria, status of CR drafts, and HTML 5.1 planning.
# [11:07] <matt> paulc: We'll reserve some time at the end for email organization discussion.
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# [11:07] <matt> paulc: We noticed during responsive images discussion that we didn't have a place for the discussion.
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# [11:08] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/News/2012#entry-9619
# [11:08] <matt> paulc: Let's review the list of the recently published drafts
# [11:08] <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/News/2012#entry-9615 Recent Drafts
# [11:08] <matt> paulc: Coming out of this meeting I'd like to at least get a sentiment out of the people in this room about how we'll progress each of these docs.
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# [11:09] <matt> paulc: We'll go back to that list and get agreement on how we're progressing those documents.
# [11:09] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Oct/0026.html
# [11:09] <matt> paulc: This email is what you agreed to do in the past from a CfC point of view.
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# [11:10] <matt> paulc: There was an explicit list of things you weren't agreeing to in that CfC too.
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# [11:10] <matt> paulc: You were agreeing to go to CR, but weren't explicitly agreeing to the exact terms of that.
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# [11:10] <Mark_Vickers> present+ Mark_Vickers
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# [11:11] <matt> paulc: We still need to do the CR transition request, need to request FPWD of 5.1, FPWD of extension specs, and any other transitions for any other specs.
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# [11:11] <matt> paulc: There were two other items: accessibility TF statement (which we won't touch on), and agreement on full list of features at risk.
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# [11:11] <matt> paulc: Given that summary, which drafts are being proposed to go to CR?
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# [11:12] <matt> paulc: I believe we'll go to CR on four or five documents.
# [11:12] <matt> paulc: The HTML 5, Canvas 2D, Polyglot and Alt-Techniques documents.
# [11:12] <matt> s/5/5 Core/
# [11:13] <matt> s/Polyglot/Microdata, Polyglot/
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# [11:13] <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [11:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html matt
# [11:13] <krisk> present+ kris_krueger
# [11:13] <matt> paulc: We need to ask ourselves about the other drafts as well.
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# [11:13] <hsivonen> q+
# [11:13] * Zakim sees Norbert, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [11:13] <Norbert> q-
# [11:13] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [11:13] <matt> paulc: Robin has said three docs would be prepared.
# [11:13] <paulc> 3 cr frafts: http://htmlwg.org/cr/
# [11:14] <adrianba> s/frafts/drafts/
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# [11:15] <adrianba> q?
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# [11:15] <matt> darobin: Those are generated from the same source document, the others I'd have to sync up with the other editors. We'll have a short meeting with Steve about that today. Elliott wasn't here and I have to have a conversation with him about how he generates it in order to get it.
# [11:15] * matt can someone map the human names to what the docs are for me?
# [11:15] <matt> paulc: So those five, does anyone disagree that they go to CR? The 2 docs don't have features at risk.
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# [11:15] <matt> hsivonen: Lachy formally objected to making micro data normative and I second that objection.
# [11:15] <mjs> q+
# [11:15] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
# [11:16] <paulc> FOs: http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/formal-objection-status.html
# [11:16] * matt was it microdata? I might have missed it.
# [11:16] <hober> s/micro data/polyglot/
# [11:16] * matt thanks hober
# [11:16] <jgraham> ack hsivonen
# [11:16] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [11:16] <matt> paulc: The Director asked us to confirm which of the FOs are still pertinent. I may have the number incorrect -- I seem to remember 11 at the time, but might have been higher -- it's now down to 5.
# [11:17] * Lachy hsivonen, I don't remember if I objected to microdata. It doesn't look like it's listed in that formal objection status page.
# [11:17] <matt> paulc: There are two examples of the case just mentioned by hsivonen, Lachlan's objection to the polyglot document being on the Rec track and obviously if that FO was upheld it'd hardly make sense to take that document into CR.
# [11:17] * matt lacy, that was my mistake, it was polyglot.
# [11:17] * darobin I think everyone calls it the polyglot document, we maybe should consider changing the title :)
# [11:17] <matt> paulc: Then there's 2 objections to text alternatives.
# [11:18] * Lachy matt, yes, I object to polyglot
# [11:18] <matt> paulc: These were from May of last year and the 2nd objection fell out of sync with what we now do with extension specs.
# [11:18] * Lachy do you want me in the room for this discussion?
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# [11:18] * hober Lachy: i think that would be nice
# [11:18] * darobin Lachy: we'd want you in the room for your sweet moves
# [11:18] <mjs> Lachy, it would be useful
# [11:18] <matt> paulc: These five were sent to the Director. We sent mail to him last week and let him know we'd done what he asked and pruned the list as much as possible. These five were confirmed as the objector wanted to maintain them. They'll be dealt with by the Director when we go to CR.
# [11:18] * Lachy now?
# [11:19] * darobin yeah, pretty much
# [11:19] * Lachy ok, coming.
# [11:19] <matt> paulc: We'll go to the Director with these docs and these five FOs and we'll come out with 5 or less docs.
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# [11:19] <matt> mjs: After Lachlan made his formal objection to those docs being Rec track (rather than note), we made up a process that doesn't involve the whole change proposal dance for getting WG decision on what should be normative or not.
# [11:20] <matt> mjs: The WG hasn't made a decision on these, the editors chose them being Rec track. No one chose to use that process, and it's unclear if it was because they didn't know the process or wanted FO.
# [11:20] <matt> hsivonen: I was unaware of the process.
# [11:20] <matt> mjs: It's not too late to do it now. Normativity of the document is a sort-of substantial change. If people didn't know about the process, we could do it now. The process is basically write a tracker issue and then have a preference poll.
# [11:20] <MikeSmith> trackbot: reload
# [11:21] <matt> mjs: I'd rather have a WG decision than throwing it in to the Director's corner.
# [11:21] <MikeSmith> trackbot, reload
# [11:21] <matt> glenn: I was wondering if anyone supports those being Rec track rather than notes.
# [11:21] * Parts: Milan (~Milan@public.cloak) (Milan)
# [11:21] <mjs> hsivonen, Lachy: process is here: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy-v3.html#note-vs-rec
# [11:21] <matt> Steve: Yes. The doc I edit on alt techniques is normative because the corresponding advice in the HTML 5 spec is normative.
# [11:22] <matt> Stevef: The reason I developed the document is because the HTML 5 spec wouldn't change.
# [11:22] <matt> glenn: If the HTML 5 spec changed to use non-normative prose would that change your spec?
# [11:22] <matt> Stevef: No.
# [11:22] <mjs> hsivonen, Lachy: I believe that bugs already exist regarding normatively of both of these specs
# [11:22] <matt> paulc: Does anyone want the HTML/XHTML to be normative? The Director asked this to be produce that document.
# [11:23] <matt> paulc: It'd be ironic if the Director has to be the one to deal with the FO.
# [11:23] <matt> paulc: If we ask him if it's normative, I have a feeling we know the answer.
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> yes please can we get agreement to change the formal title of that document to Polygot
# [11:23] <hsivonen> q+
# [11:23] * Zakim sees mjs, hsivonen on the speaker queue
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# [11:23] <mjs> ack mjs
# [11:23] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [11:23] <matt> Cameron: Programmatically vs hand authoring, XHTML is easier to author in an algorithmic fashion and it's still good to have techniques for producing XHTML.
# [11:23] <matt> q?
# [11:23] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [11:24] <MikeSmith> trackbot, reload my gin can
# [11:24] <trackbot> Sorry, MikeSmith, I don't understand 'trackbot, reload my gin can'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help.
# [11:24] <matt> rrsagent, make seconds
# [11:24] <RRSAgent> meeting was that short, eh?
# [11:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html matt
# [11:24] <mjs> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy-v3.html#note-vs-rec
# [11:25] <matt> paulc: Looking at this process, which is part of decision policy v3 -- though this text has been there unchanged for some time. We seem to only ever get into the first stage here, where editor's make up a draft and declare Rec or Note.
# [11:25] <matt> paulc: We don't seem to get to the stage where people object with the initial decision.
# [11:25] <mjs> here's a bug on polyglot being normative: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9969
# [11:26] <matt> paulc: I think mjs was saying it might be better to have a sense of the WG before going to the Director. Aren't we going to get that sense when we go to CfC on the documents?
# [11:26] <matt> paulc: You are suggesting we ask it so we don't get objections at CfC so we can ask it separately?
# [11:27] <matt> mjs: There might be people who are OK with it going to CfC either way and there may be people who object at the FO level until the end, even though the question has never gone to the full WG to decide. It's skipping a step to go from Editor's decision to Director without having the WG decide.
# [11:27] <matt> mjs: I think it'd be cleaner to do it that way.
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# [11:27] <SimonPieters> q?
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# [11:27] <matt> glenn: Agree with mjs on that. Are the last two FO's the same?
# [11:27] <matt> paulc: No, there are two objections in one email.
# [11:27] * matt is so glad I'm not team contact for this WG...
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# [11:28] <matt> paulc: What if we did two CfCs on those two documents?
# [11:28] * Parts: sgodard (~sgodard@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [11:29] <matt> mjs: You can't have a CfC without knowing what the consensus position might be. We usually do CfCs when we think we know the default position and make others argue for it to not be. We could have a CfC and then still have an FO and *scribe fail*
# [11:29] <Stevef> q+
# [11:29] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Stevef on the speaker queue
# [11:29] * Joins: David_MacD_Lenovo (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [11:30] <matt> paulc: If we did a vote and get only 10 responses, vs a CfC where we get 40. What if the vote was 4 and 4 or 6 and 4.
# [11:30] <matt> mjs: The process clearly says it's a preference poll because it's a process not a tech decision, so it's by individual not by org.
# [11:30] * darobin frankly, if only ten people care we can flip a coin
# [11:30] <matt> mjs: It's really not much more complex than a CfC.
# [11:30] <glenn> s/last two FO's the same/last two FO's the same document/
# [11:31] <mjs> and here's a bug on alt techniques being normative: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12726
# [11:31] <matt> paulc: The suggestion on the floor then would be to do two separate preference polls immediately on whether the two drafts (XHTML guidelines and Alt techniques) whether both of those should be rec track.
# [11:31] <jgraham> ack hsivonen
# [11:31] * Zakim sees Stevef on the speaker queue
# [11:32] <matt> hsivonen: So did the chairs decide that there's no reason to invoke the process button?
# [11:32] <matt> paulc: Yeah.
# [11:32] * darobin the tools *will* save us!
# [11:32] <matt> hsivonen: Cameron has said that it's easier to algorithmically produce XHTML, but I've got experience in this that shows that's not true. It's actually easier to put an HTML serializer at the end of the pipeline than try to teach a generic XML producer to learn polyglot.
# [11:33] <matt> hsivonen: A generic XML tool won't produce polyglot and polyglot makes it harder to serialize than to use a serializer that uses HTML.
# [11:33] * Joins: Joshue108 (~Joshue@public.cloak)
# [11:33] <Joshue108> +q
# [11:33] * Zakim sees Stevef, Joshue on the speaker queue
# [11:33] <jgraham> ack Stevef
# [11:33] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
# [11:34] <matt> Stevef: Say the document gets changed to a Note that I edit, then we still have normative text in the HTML 5 spec, then when do I get to make a decision going forward?
# [11:34] <matt> paulc: That's one of the arguments going into it, and you could object to HTML 5 going to CR.
# [11:35] <matt> paulc: That's step one. mjs would it be useful for the co-chairs to follow-up with a note to the Director saying we're continuing to work on these items. He gave us homework and if we change our mind we should tell him.
# [11:35] <matt> mjs: Yes, we should probably tell him to hold off on those as the participants in those want to get a WG decision.
# [11:35] <matt> mjs: The process set up for this does require having supports for and against having these on Rec track each write a brief rationale.
# [11:35] <matt> mjs: Do we have that for each spec?
# [11:36] <matt> Cameron: I'll prepare a rationale on the pro side of polyglot.
# [11:36] <matt> hsivonen: I'll write one against since it's my objection.
# [11:36] <matt> paulc: Does anyone in the room want to write why Alt text shouldn't be on the rec track?
# [11:36] <matt> Lachy: Yes, I can do it.
# [11:36] <matt> Stevef: I'm willing to make a statement for it.
# [11:36] <matt> mjs: You can start writing those now, send them to public-html and the sooner we get that done the sooner we can get it done quickly.
# [11:36] <jgraham> q?
# [11:36] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
# [11:36] <DanielAustin> Cameron: I'll help if you'd like
# [11:37] <matt> mjs: Wednesday of next week say? They can be short, a paragraph.
# [11:37] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [11:37] <matt> Cameron: Can I have two weeks?
# [11:37] <matt> mjs: We'd need another volunteer then.
# [11:37] <jgraham> ack Joshue
# [11:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [11:37] <matt> Cameron: I'll see what I can do.
# [11:37] * hober The First letter of Lachy to the Polygloticians
# [11:38] <matt> Joshue108: The alt techniques doc is a substantive document and I suggest the WG read it thoroughly before making a decision. I'm highly concerned that it gets drowned in the WG process.
# [11:38] * Quits: Joshue108 (~Joshue@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [11:38] <matt> matt: You can also FO for it to be Rec track, so you still have a way out.
# [11:39] * Quits: LeonieWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
# [11:39] <matt> paulc: The idea is to get some indication to give to the Director.
# [11:39] <matt> mjs: I'll write the Director with the current status.
# [11:39] * Quits: takuya (~takuya@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [11:39] <matt> paulc: I don't think the formal objections are going to go away, so I'll consider this item covered.
# [11:40] * Quits: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [11:40] * Joins: ch (~ch@public.irc.w3.org)
# [11:40] <matt> paulc: So I think we have the five docs that will go to CR and decided the WG determined what to do on polyglot and alt-text. Now let's talk about Web authors, differences, Platform Accessibility APIs, and the Markup Language.
# [11:41] <matt> paulc: When the base core spec goes into CR, what should happen with the Web Authors and diffs doc.
# [11:42] <matt> MikeSmith: The diffs doc isn't rec track and can just be a WD, at some point we'll have to decide what to do with it.
# [11:42] * jgraham wonders if we can get Mike a mike
# [11:42] <matt> paulc: It says it's on the Note track. When we publish this do we base i--
# [11:42] <matt> MikeSmith: I'd say we need to republish the author doc. We don't have complete agreement that it should be a Rec track doc. I don't believe it should be personally, but others do.
# [11:43] <matt> MikeSmith: Simon is working on the diffs doc, it'd be a lot of work to do another version. I'm not sure it's worth the time to do it as there aren't going to be many differences that are just editorial.
# [11:43] <matt> paulc: The high bar would be to publish both as WDs as we go to CR, but I'm hearing it's not important for the diffs doc.
# [11:43] <matt> Simon: I don't mind redoing it for this publication.
# [11:43] * darobin SimonPieters: does that involve more than just changing the date?
# [11:44] * Joins: cyns (~43a88369@public.cloak)
# [11:44] <matt> paulc: So we should republish both as a WD?
# [11:44] <matt> SimonPieters: I believe that makes sense.
# [11:44] <cyns> q+
# [11:44] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [11:44] <matt> paulc: So that leaves us with HTML the Markup language, Mike?
# [11:44] <matt> MikeSmith: I'll do it.
# [11:44] <matt> paulc: So we'll publish the Markup Language as a WD.
# [11:44] <jgraham> q?
# [11:44] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [11:45] <matt> q?
# [11:45] <matt> ack next
# [11:45] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [11:45] * Zakim sees cyns at the head of the speaker queue
# [11:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [11:45] * Joins: sakkuru_ (~sakkuru@public.cloak)
# [11:45] <matt> paulc: The last one is the HTML Accessiblity API guide. This is a DW and hasn't gone to LC.
# [11:45] <matt> paulc: In some ways it's on a different timeline than other docs. What are the next steps?
# [11:45] * SimonPieters darobin: i maintain changes to whatwg html as well, even if w3c html5 has no changes, i still need to look it over
# [11:45] * Quits: sakkuru (~sakkuru@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [11:45] <matt> cyns: It's not ready for LC. It was originally conceived as a Note, but we'd like it to go to Rec track.
# [11:46] * Joins: sakkuru (~sakkuru@public.cloak)
# [11:46] * matt sorry, room noise.
# [11:46] <matt> paulc: I don't see why this would have to be co-published.
# [11:46] * darobin SimonPieters: yeah that makes sense
# [11:47] * Quits: David_MacD_Lenovo (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [11:47] * Joins: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [11:47] <matt> cyns: It's in active development so there are changes all the time. I don't see a reason not to when we go to CR on the other 3 that we would also publish the Accessiblity API as a draft as well.
# [11:47] <matt> cyns: We have a few big changes that we were holding off on for the heartbeat draft, but we can get those in. Late November?
# [11:48] <matt> paulc: We'll know better after this meeting. You said it isn't on the rec track, but you want it to be? There's nothing in the SotD to say it's not, which means by default it is.
# [11:48] <matt> cyns: That's fine, I know there was some discussion of it.
# [11:48] <matt> paulc: There is a procedure for someone to object. The situation is that the Editor's have proposed that it be on the Rec track and no one has objected.
# [11:48] <matt> cyns: Great.
# [11:48] * Quits: mdahlstrand (~mdahlstrand@public.cloak) (mdahlstrand)
# [11:49] <MikeSmith> daq?
# [11:49] <matt> paulc: So we have 9 documents, 5 CRs and the rest as WDs published at the same time.
# [11:49] <MikeSmith> q?
# [11:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [11:49] <matt> paulc: Objections to that?
# [11:49] <matt> paulc: OK.
# [11:49] <matt> rrsagent, draft seconds
# [11:49] <RRSAgent> meeting was that short, eh?
# [11:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html matt
# [11:49] * Quits: sakkuru_ (~sakkuru@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [11:49] * Joins: David_MacD_Lenovo (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [11:49] * SimonPieters darobin: i also need to fix this bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19756
# [11:50] <matt> paulc: Given that we've talked about having a preference poll about alt-techniques and polyglot, I say darobin should hold off on working on them.
# [11:50] <matt> darobin: Happy to oblige.
# [11:50] <matt> paulc: We've done FOs. Now CR exit criteria.
# [11:51] <matt> paulc: The CR exit criteria were proposed for Plan 2014, if there are no objections I won't review this now. The docs will point at the CR exit criteria. darobin do the SotDs do that?
# [11:52] <matt> darobin: I don't believe it does. I don't know if we're allowed to point to them or if we have to include them.
# [11:52] <matt> paulc: The 3 CR drafts need to be amended to have the CR exit criteria.
# [11:52] <paulc> exit criteria: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/public-permissive-exit-criteria.html
# [11:54] <cjones> +?
# [11:54] * Zakim wonders where ? is
# [11:54] <cjones> q?
# [11:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [11:54] <jgraham> q+ jgraham
# [11:54] * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
# [11:55] <hsivonen> q+
# [11:55] * Zakim sees jgraham, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [11:55] <cjones> q+
# [11:55] * Zakim sees jgraham, hsivonen, cjones on the speaker queue
# [11:55] <adrianba> q?
# [11:55] * Zakim sees jgraham, hsivonen, cjones on the speaker queue
# [11:55] <matt> paulc: Features at Risk. Does anyone object to the items on the list of Features at Risk? Are there any items missing from the list?
# [11:55] <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=HTML5.0AtRiskFeatures Features at Risk
# [11:55] <MikeSmith> q?
# [11:55] * Zakim sees jgraham, hsivonen, cjones on the speaker queue
# [11:55] <paulc> ack jg
# [11:55] * Zakim sees hsivonen, cjones on the speaker queue
# [11:56] <matt> jgraham: I have a general point and a specific point. I am wondering if we have some defined criteria by which we decide what can be on this list or can't be on this list? So far it seems like anything that people have suggested has gone on the list. That doesn't seem like great criteria.
# [11:57] <matt> paulc: I refer to this as a draft list and I believe your characterization is correct in that it's a wiki and that anyone who wanted to add something to the list did add it. Your second question is about procedure and we do need to get to consensus on what the features at risk are.
# [11:57] <matt> paulc: When we do go to CfC for CR, there will be two elements: documents you can look at, which include explicitly the list of features at risk, and it will also explicitly ask whether we have consensus on those features at risk.
# [11:58] * Joins: LeonieWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [11:58] <matt> paulc: What principles we use for what's on the Features at Risk is that it's not toxic to have things on the Features at Risk list because the criteria is if we had interop on those features.
# [11:58] <matt> paulc: Having the Features at Risk has actually caused people to implement those features so they don't get cut rather than the other way around.
# [11:59] <matt> jgraham: For several of the things on those lists I believe we already have multiple, largely interoperable implemented features. I don't think we should put anything on the list when they've already become part of the interoperable Web.
# [11:59] <plh> q+ to talk about registerProtocolHandler
# [11:59] * Zakim sees hsivonen, cjones, plh on the speaker queue
# [11:59] <matt> jgraham: Specifically I'm looking at registerProtocolHandler. We've got implementations. I don't think it's appropriate to call it at risk from a spec point of view.
# [12:00] <matt> MikeSmith: I put it there.
# [12:00] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [12:00] <gitbot> [html] darobin pushed 3 new commits to CR: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/77652fdd84fc...1cd972ab1a00
# [12:00] <gitbot> html/CR 9d6fa52 Robin Berjon: bp conflict
# [12:00] <gitbot> html/CR b81e1be Robin Berjon: bp conflict
# [12:00] <gitbot> html/CR 1cd972a Robin Berjon: appcache at risk; CR exit criteria
# [12:00] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [12:00] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [12:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
# [12:00] <matt> MikeSmith: I didn't add it because I felt strongly about it other than Larry Masinter brought it up.
# [12:00] <matt> MikeSmith: I'm willing to retract it.
# [12:01] <matt> plh: I would object to removing that from the list with my IETF hat on. The IETF do have concerns about that and I'd like it to remain on the list while we're working it over with IETF.
# [12:01] <matt> plh: Not because of technical issues.
# [12:01] <matt> darobin: It's about potential security risk?
# [12:01] <matt> plh: Yes. I don't want to have to worry about having to remove it without it being marked Feature at Risk.
# [12:01] * Quits: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:02] <matt> jgraham: If it's such a serious concern that it'd have to be removed from implementations, even then it doesn't seem like it should be marked as a Feature at Risk.
# [12:02] * Quits: dromasca (~dromasca@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:02] <matt> darobin: The at risk process lacks granularity. We might have to change it substantially, but it'd still have to be marked a Feature at Risk if we do have to blow it up.
# [12:02] <matt> q?
# [12:02] * Zakim sees hsivonen, cjones, plh on the speaker queue
# [12:03] <matt> hsivonen: Can someone explain to me what the purpose of at risk is?
# [12:03] <matt> hsivonen: jgraham said there are interoperable implementations, but it appears you can get on the list from vague IETF concerns.
# [12:03] <matt> hsivonen: It doesn't seem like there are reasons for Features at Risk. Why not put the whole spec under Features at Risk?
# [12:04] * Parts: Bert (bbos@public.irc.w3.org) (Bert)
# [12:04] * Joins: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak)
# [12:05] * Quits: jkiss (~jkiss@public.cloak) (jkiss)
# [12:05] <matt> hsivonen: I believe all of the navigation stuff is potentially not interoperable exactly as written, so if we took the criteria of having stuff that might not be interoperably implemented or implementable, then it should be on that list. It'd be horrible to remove it.
# [12:05] <matt> darobin: I don't disagree with you. I'd like to get this done without too much process. To answer your question: if we have to make some changes because interoperability problem then we're good to go if they're not too radical. I'd rather not have registerProtocolHandler be on the list because of IETF, but this might just be a good thing to be friendly to them.
# [12:06] * Parts: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak) (Wonsuk)
# [12:06] <matt> paulc: Is there somewhere on public-html where IETF have listed their concerns?
# [12:06] * Quits: yamaday (~yamaday@public.cloak) ("TakIRC")
# [12:06] <matt> plh: We talked about it on our last coord call and someone took an action to do it and send it to us.
# [12:06] <matt> darobin: Timeframe?
# [12:06] <matt> plh: I don't recall.
# [12:06] <matt> paulc: So, no.
# [12:06] <matt> paulc: How are we going to evaluate anything without seeing it?
# [12:07] <hsivonen> it would be editorially horrible to remove navigation, but substantively, I don't want a REC that requires Web-incompatible navigation
# [12:07] <matt> plh: I have shared all I know, and said to them write down what you don't like. And that the best course of action at the time was to mark it Feature at Risk in that section.
# [12:07] * Parts: kenji (~kenji@public.cloak) (Leaving...)
# [12:07] <jgraham> q?
# [12:07] * Zakim sees hsivonen, cjones, plh on the speaker queue
# [12:08] * Quits: naomi (naomi@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [12:08] <matt> paulc: I said 15 minutes before the end we'd switch to the mailing list discussion, so I'm going to pop up a level and ask: is there anything on this list of Features at Risk that people object to? And are there anything missing from the list?
# [12:08] * Quits: Yoshiharu (~Yoshiharu@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:08] <matt> paulc: I answered the 2nd question myself with reference to CSS item and I believe scoped-stylesheets needs to be added.
# [12:08] <matt> plh: It's there.
# [12:08] * Quits: Yoshihiro (~Yoshihiro@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:09] <matt> paulc: We've had some discussion on objections to it, specifically registerProtocolHandler, was there any other?
# [12:09] <matt> jgraham: AppCache is interoperably implemented --
# [12:09] <matt> darobin: The reason it's there is purely procedural: we want to have the option of removing it and putting it in WebApps. If WebApps did a delta on this it might become a complete mess.
# [12:09] <matt> jgraham: That makes sense.
# [12:09] <hsivonen> q+
# [12:09] * Zakim sees hsivonen, cjones, plh on the speaker queue
# [12:09] * Quits: SungOk_You_ (~SungOk_You@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:10] * Quits: sakkuru (~sakkuru@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:10] <matt> paulc: We have three examples of principles of what goes on the list: AppCache because it might be done in an extension spec, non-interoperable items and the registerProtocolHandler is that we may get evidence from an external organization that there are significant security problems and that it might need to be removed even if there is interop.
# [12:10] <matt> paulc: Is there anything missing from the list?
# [12:10] <matt> q?
# [12:10] * Zakim sees hsivonen, cjones, plh on the speaker queue
# [12:11] * jgraham wonders who on the speaker queue has now said what they wanted to say
# [12:11] <matt> hsivonen: What's the consequence of something missing on the list and then not fulfilling the CR exit criteria. I believe navigation won't fulfill the CR exit criteria.
# [12:11] <matt> paulc: If you have something on the list that wasn't identified you'd have to go back to LC.
# [12:11] * Quits: kawakami (~kawakami@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:11] <SimonPieters> q+
# [12:11] * Zakim sees hsivonen, cjones, plh, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [12:11] <matt> paulc: If you read Plan 2014, we're planning on doing that. We're not anticipating getting this list correct. We're going into CR for a long time on a large spec.
# [12:12] <MikeSmith> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18975 registerContentHanlder and registerProtocolHandler open huge security and privacy holes (bug raised by Larry Masinter)
# [12:12] <matt> paulc: The LC would be short, probably just a month. But any item we failed to get interoperable evidence we'd have to go back to LC.
# [12:12] <hsivonen> q-
# [12:12] * Zakim sees cjones, plh, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [12:12] * Quits: SimonPieters (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [12:12] <matt> hsivonen: Why have the list?
# [12:12] * Quits: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
# [12:12] * Quits: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak) (Norbert)
# [12:12] <matt> paulc: It helps drive implementations.
# [12:13] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [12:13] <gitbot> [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to html5_canvas_CR: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/d46707fc59505c7155f6be90681451306716bbf8
# [12:13] <gitbot> html/html5_canvas_CR d46707f Robin Berjon: CR exit criteria
# [12:13] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [12:13] <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [12:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ1
# [12:13] * Joins: kawakami (~kawakami@public.cloak)
# [12:13] <matt> plh: And it draws attention to the implementors. Having the entire spec be in Features at Risk won't do that.
# [12:13] * matt and is a seriously rude move.
# [12:14] <matt> cjones: ?? on the list doesn't meet the CR exit criteria. I'd like to put either a broad form submission algorithm or a method based switching with FTP and javascript means.
# [12:14] * Joins: SimonPieters (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [12:14] <matt> cjones: I'll add it right now.
# [12:14] <MikeSmith> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ietf-w3c/2012Sep/thread.html#msg4 web+ and registerProtocolHandler
# [12:14] <SimonPieters> q?
# [12:14] * Zakim sees cjones, plh, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [12:14] * Quits: LeonieWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
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# [12:15] <matt> paulc: We're not going to make any decisions today, but we need it on the list as quickly as possible.
# [12:15] <matt> ack next
# [12:15] * matt plh, do you want to stay on queue?
# [12:15] <matt> glenn: In the test suites I don't see any tests for ruby or the algorithm defined. I think that should be on this list as well for now.
# [12:15] * Zakim sees cjones at the head of the speaker queue
# [12:15] * Zakim sees plh, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [12:15] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [12:15] <matt> Chris: There are parser tests which does the syntax and the semantics and layout are non-normative.
# [12:15] <matt> paulc: And if it's informative material you don't need tests.
# [12:16] <matt> q?
# [12:16] * Zakim sees plh, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [12:16] <matt> ack next
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# [12:16] <Zakim> plh, you wanted to talk about registerProtocolHandler
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# [12:16] <matt> ack next
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# [12:16] <matt> SimonPieters: hsivonen asked before what's the purpose of this list, and you said to drive implementations. That suggests that this is to micromanage the priority of implementations in browsers.
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# [12:16] <matt> q+
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# [12:16] <jgraham> q+ jgraham
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# [12:17] <matt> SimonPieters: I don't think it's appropriate to do that. If we want flexibility to take stuff out for various reasons then it makes more sense to put the whole spec on the list.
# [12:17] <mjs> q+
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# [12:17] <mjs> q+ to talk about putting the whole spec in the list
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# [12:17] <glenn> there is a rather long "segmentation and categorisation of content" algorithm specified for ruby at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/single-page.html#the-ruby-element
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# [12:23] <matt> paulc: Immediately after lunch we have a session on testing.
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# [12:23] <hbang> rrsagent, generate minutes
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# [12:24] <matt> q?
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# [12:24] <matt> Stevef: I'll be discussing the main element briefly after lunch too.
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# [12:24] <matt> paulc: What we're anticipating happening.
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# [12:24] <[tm]> maybe instead of going down the road Maciej described we should instead have a "Features not at risk" list
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# [12:25] <matt> paulc: 0: Recommendations on the documents 1: preference poll 2: figure out how to finish features at risk 3: Status with features at risk list. Chairs will move as aggressively as possible to get this done.
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# [12:26] <matt> paulc: We're trying to get things done in November/December. Our plan says CR before end of the year.
# [12:27] <matt> paulc: Left on the agenda, plan for 5.1. Chairs have asked editors for drafts and as soon as we get them there will be a CfC for FPWD of the 5.1 versions of the docs.
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# [12:27] <matt> paulc: The bugzilla components have been changed and all new comments on the spec fall into the 5.1 components unless explicitly an interop bug on the CR drafts.
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# [12:28] <matt> paulc: First topic after lunch is testing. I've had a request to move the discussion of the main element in front of the testing slot. Any objections?
# [12:28] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [12:28] <matt> paulc: It'd be limited to ten minutes.
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# [12:28] <matt> paulc: Steve wants to get some feedback on that item and since we're f2f that is reasonable.
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# [12:29] <matt> paulc: Mailing list item, mjs, how do you want to handle it? We still have 75m for lunch if we do it now.
# [12:29] <matt> mjs: I'd like to do it after lunch.
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# [12:29] <matt> paulc: We'll reconvene at 2pm, which will be the main element. There will be a short Q&A, there's a proposed FPWD for that.
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# [12:30] <matt> paulc: Then 15 minutes on public-html list and it's use.
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# [12:30] <matt> paulc: Won't make decisions but get opinions on the table then do the testing session.
# [12:30] <matt> rrsagent, draft seconds
# [12:30] <RRSAgent> meeting was that short, eh?
# [12:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html matt
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# [12:30] <matt> paulc: Scribe?
# [12:30] <matt> rick: I'll do it.
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# [12:30] <matt> paulc: Recess. Please be back before 2pm.
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# [12:31] <mjs> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2012
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# [13:25] <hbang> rrsagent, make minutes
# [13:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html hbang
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# [14:00] <cabanier1> scribenick: cabanier
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# [14:00] <cabanier1> we need to put in a call to implementation
# [14:00] <cabanier1> change to the agenda to go over this
# [14:01] <cabanier1> topic: minimum period for cr
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# [14:01] <ddorwin> Present+ ddorwin
# [14:01] <cabanier1> paulc: I will go over the notes
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# [14:02] <cabanier1> paulc: …we need a mimimum CR period
# [14:02] <cabanier1> paulc: … first item is plan 2014
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# [14:02] <cabanier1> paulc: … we go into cr 4q 2012 and LCF 2014
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# [14:02] <cabanier1> paul: … this is the maximum CR
# [14:03] <cabanier1> paulc: …another option is the one year option. minimum length is 12 month CR
# [14:03] <cabanier1> paul: …if we choose the maximum cr, we can't get out of CR sooner
# [14:04] <cabanier1> paulc:… option c is some earilier date
# [14:04] <cabanier1> paulc: … which is 2013
# [14:04] <krisk> present+ kris_krueger
# [14:04] <cabanier1> paulc:… for some drafts
# [14:04] <cabanier1> paulc: … such as canvas and microdata
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# [14:05] <mjs> q+
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# [14:05] <cabanier1> paulc: …we can debate if we want the same data for everyone or separate dates
# [14:06] <cabanier1> mjs: for the HTML5 spec, we already committed implicitly ourselves to a specific date
# [14:06] <cabanier1> mjs: … we can make if different for different spec
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# [14:07] <cabanier1> paulc: so we would pick the long option for the HTML core spec
# [14:07] <krisk> q+
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# [14:07] <jgraham> ack mjs
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# [14:08] <jgraham> ack krisk
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# [14:08] <cabanier1> chris: the canvas one is the one that we can finish earlier
# [14:08] <cabanier1> chris: … we have a lot of tests
# [14:08] <MikeSmith> eh?
# [14:08] <cabanier1> chris: … I have no opinion on microdata
# [14:08] <MikeSmith> have the microdata dom api tests not been checked into the repo?
# [14:08] <adrianba> s/chris:/krisk:/g
# [14:09] <cabanier1> paulc: I hear sentiment for a earlier cr exit for canvas
# [14:09] <mjs> q+
# [14:09] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [14:09] <krisk> Here is the Microdata tests from OPERA not tantek http://www.w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/Opera/microdata/
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# [14:10] <adrianba> q+
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# [14:10] <MikeSmith> krisk, ah OK those are the ones I was thinking of
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# [14:10] <cabanier1> paulc: … so, the current proposal is that for HTML5 we will say the minimum period is june 2014 and for canvas/microdata it's 6 month period
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# [14:10] <cabanier1> mjs: I would like to give a counterpoint for canvas
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# [14:11] <cabanier1> mjs: … there are several items on the at risk page
# [14:11] <cabanier1> mjs: …especially hit regions
# [14:11] <SimonPieters> q?
# [14:11] * Zakim sees mjs, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [14:11] <jgraham> ack mjs
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# [14:11] <mjs> ack mjs
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# [14:12] <cabanier1> q-
# [14:12] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [14:12] <cabanier1> adrianba: I have one comment
# [14:12] <cabanier1> adrianba: … the polyglot spec could make progress more quickly
# [14:13] <jgraham> ack adrianba
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# [14:13] <cabanier1> Philip: ...
# [14:13] <cabanier1> q+
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# [14:14] <adrianba> i/Philip: .../adrianba: what happens when the spec gets to PR - does it wait for Rec?/
# [14:14] <jgraham> ack cabanier
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# [14:14] <adrianba> s/Philip: .../plh: the director has said that if you can show the features you depend on are stable then you can go to rec/
# [14:15] <cabanier1> cabanier: my fear is that the progress will be so long that by the time the spec is released it will be obsolete
# [14:15] <cabanier1> cabanier1: …because the canvas specification is moving fast
# [14:15] <jgraham> ack mjs
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# [14:16] <adrianba> q+
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# [14:16] <cabanier1> mjs: polyglot has no user agent conformance. It just describes rules. I don't know how to write exit criteria for it
# [14:16] <hsivonen> great reason for not having Polyglot on the REC track
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# [14:17] <cabanier1> paulc: any other opions
# [14:17] <jgraham> ack adrianba
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# [14:17] <cabanier1> adrianba: I didn't mean that polyglot requires parsing behavior
# [14:17] <cabanier1> adrianba: … so this would be an argument for waiting
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# [14:18] <cabanier1> paulc: for HTML5, maciej wants for go for the long time of 2014
# [14:18] <adrianba> s/requires parsing behavior/requires parsing behavior in user agents/
# [14:18] <cabanier1> paulc: for the other items, it's unclear.
# [14:19] <cabanier1> paul: I heard some sentiment to move early except Maciej
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# [14:19] <cabanier1> paulc: hit testing is the one he specifically identified
# [14:19] <adrianba> s/so this would be an argument for waiting/but writing a spec to map two parsers relies on those parser definitions being stable - if they were in flux then that would be an argument for not moving forward more quickly/
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# [14:21] <mjs> maybe polyglot and alt techniques editors should first define their CR exit criteria
# [14:21] <cabanier1> paulc: now we have to find the exit criteria with the editors
# [14:21] <cabanier1> paulc: and they have to find a minimum period
# [14:21] * Parts: Milan (~Milan@public.cloak) (Milan)
# [14:22] <cabanier1> paulc: … we won't preclude to go fast on html5, canvas and microdata to CR if the other two are slower
# [14:22] <cabanier1> paulc: … we can go CR with any spec
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# [14:25] <cabanier> topic: mailing lists
# [14:25] <adrianba> q?
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# [14:25] <adrianba> q+
# [14:25] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [14:25] <cabanier> mjs: one thing I've been hearing, is that people want to do work outside the working group
# [14:25] <cabanier> mjs: … and complaints that the list is too noisy
# [14:25] <cabanier> mjs: … my job is to fix this. If every spec has its own list, it makes it very hard to follow
# [14:25] * hober subscribes to public-html-html5
# [14:25] <cabanier> mjs: … I would like to hear what is bad about public-html
# [14:26] <Marcos> +q
# [14:26] * Zakim sees adrianba, Marcos on the speaker queue
# [14:26] <hsivonen> q+
# [14:26] * Zakim sees adrianba, Marcos, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [14:26] * annevk dumdumdum... the Invited Expert Agreement?
# [14:26] <cabanier> robin: bugzilla email
# [14:26] * Joins: JohnS (~JohnS@public.irc.w3.org)
# [14:26] <cabanier> mjs: poll -> 15 people
# [14:27] * Joins: paulc (~paulc@public.irc.w3.org)
# [14:27] <cabanier> Marcos: too much email
# [14:27] <jgraham> q+ darobin
# [14:27] * Zakim sees adrianba, Marcos, hsivonen, darobin on the speaker queue
# [14:27] <cabanier> mjs: poll -> 2-3 people
# [14:27] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
# [14:28] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [14:28] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
# [14:28] <cabanier> hsivonen: failure to ban people
# [14:28] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) ("TakIRC")
# [14:28] <cabanier> hsivonen: people should be banned immediatly for one week
# [14:28] <MikeSmith> +1000 milion to what hsivonen just said
# [14:28] <cabanier> hsivonen: or people that keep going over the same thing
# [14:28] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [14:28] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@public.cloak)
# [14:29] <cabanier> mjs: failure eliminate trolls -> 10 people
# [14:29] * karl will be in the category of "not too much email" (happy dynamic views wonk), but more in the category of "not enough technical discussions on the list. DIscussions too much inside the bug system."
# [14:29] <cabanier> mjs: failure to stop ratholes -> 10 people
# [14:29] <jgraham> ack hsivonen
# [14:29] * Zakim sees adrianba, Marcos, darobin on the speaker queue
# [14:29] <SimonPieters> q+
# [14:29] * Zakim sees adrianba, Marcos, darobin, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [14:30] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [14:30] <cabanier> adrianba: the WG has a broad charter and diverse membership. it's hard for people to identify where they can contribute
# [14:30] * karl also "circular arguments" which have already been discussed but not documented is another issue.
# [14:30] * Joins: Shinji (shinji@public.cloak)
# [14:31] <cabanier> adrianba: … I agree we don't want to fragment discussion but there should be a way to group topics
# [14:31] <dsinger> q+ to say better subject tagging would help. {agenda}, [aapi] and [<bugzilla>] are the few I see. ideally, emails are tagged with issues or actions, so they are associated with something
# [14:31] * Zakim sees adrianba, Marcos, darobin, SimonPieters, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:31] <Marcos> ack Marcos
# [14:31] * Zakim sees adrianba, darobin, SimonPieters, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:31] <annevk> ack adrianba
# [14:31] * Zakim sees darobin, SimonPieters, dsinger on the speaker queue
# [14:32] <cabanier> mjs: too hard to follow/small set of topics of interest -> 12 people
# [14:32] <dsinger> q-
# [14:32] * Zakim sees darobin, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [14:32] * dsinger as tagging is a response to adrian's comment
# [14:32] <cabanier> mjs: … there are 2 other WGs that have this issue.
# [14:32] <cabanier> mjs: … and they are happy with their mailing list
# [14:33] <cabanier> robin: even though webapps is diverse, it's all about API's
# [14:33] <hober> q?
# [14:33] * Zakim sees darobin, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [14:33] <jgraham> ack darobin
# [14:33] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [14:33] <hober> ack darobin
# [14:33] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [14:33] <cabanier> adrianba: perfectly happy is a bit over generalized
# [14:33] <annevk> WebApps 1) www-dom 2) public-script-coord 3) public-webapps 4) good use of Bugzilla 5) too hard to follow for trolls
# [14:33] <cabanier> darobin: moving process related discussion to another list would help
# [14:33] <fantasai> www-style also does subject-tagging
# [14:34] <cabanier> paulc: can you give an example?
# [14:34] <cabanier> darobin: in dap we did that
# [14:34] <karl> +1 to darobin
# [14:34] * dbaron was about to q+ to say similar thing to what darobin just said: about high ratio of process content to technical content
# [14:35] <hsivonen> q+
# [14:35] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [14:35] <cabanier> mjs: some people have told me that they don't want to see process related email
# [14:35] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [14:35] <cabanier> mjs: mix of process and technical ->15
# [14:35] <Stevef> q+
# [14:35] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, hsivonen, Stevef on the speaker queue
# [14:35] <jgraham> ack SimonPieters
# [14:35] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Stevef on the speaker queue
# [14:35] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
# [14:35] <jgraham> ack hsivonen
# [14:35] * Zakim sees Stevef on the speaker queue
# [14:36] <jgraham> q+ jgraham
# [14:36] * Zakim sees Stevef, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [14:36] <cabanier> hsivonen: the decision process
# [14:36] * Joins: shige__ (~shige@public.irc.w3.org)
# [14:36] <cabanier> hsivonen: it should be about getting stuff done.
# [14:36] <cabanier> hsivonen: there should be no animosity between the chairs and the members
# [14:36] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [14:36] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
# [14:36] * adrianba is there a reason darobin is on one knee?
# [14:37] <fantasai> s/the decision process/the decision process seems optimized to make the chairs seem impartial/
# [14:37] <cabanier> hsivonen: chairs are trying to protect themselves from criticism
# [14:37] <cabanier> mjs: I think things have changed. there might still be some distrust.
# [14:37] <jgraham> q?
# [14:37] * Zakim sees Stevef, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [14:37] * MikeSmith adrianba he was genuflecting in the presence of Henri
# [14:37] <fantasai> s/changed/changed; in first 2 years of WG, lots of traffic was wrt decisions being unfair/
# [14:38] <cabanier> mjs: …is this relevant to the question?
# [14:38] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
# [14:38] <cabanier> hsivonen: if the chairs make more decisions, it would make the list less process heavy
# [14:38] <darobin> +1 to hsivonen
# [14:38] <cabanier> mjs: so you suggest that the chairs should decide contentious issues?
# [14:39] * Joins: Joshue108 (~Joshue@public.cloak)
# [14:39] <cabanier> hsivonen: maybe no for contentious issues but for editorial ones. There is no reason to escalate those.
# [14:40] * Joins: Kiyoshi_ (~Kiyoshi@public.cloak)
# [14:40] <cabanier> mjs: I agree for small issues. however it can become contentious if you decide an issue is small
# [14:40] * fantasai darobin++
# [14:40] * Joins: giuseppe (~giuseppep@public.cloak)
# [14:40] <adrianba> q?
# [14:40] * Zakim sees Stevef, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [14:41] <cabanier> paulc: so you're looking for less process by making earlier decisions and using the decision policy for big issues?
# [14:41] <cabanier> paulc: … and you think that is important?
# [14:42] <cabanier> hsivonen: yes
# [14:42] <cabanier> paulc: because you believe this creates less process?
# [14:42] <cabanier> hsivonen: yes
# [14:42] <darobin> q?
# [14:42] * Zakim sees Stevef, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [14:42] * dsinger wonders if the weight of the decision process applied should be proportional to the weight of the issue (i.e. those that don't involve normative text should get less heavy a process)
# [14:42] <cabanier> mjs: who believes that this decision process is important -> 10 people
# [14:43] <cabanier> glenn: how many people are satisfied with the list?
# [14:43] * Quits: naomi (naomi@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [14:43] * Joins: naomi (naomi@public.cloak)
# [14:43] <cabanier> mjs: satifaction poll -> 2 people
# [14:43] <jgraham> ack Stevef
# [14:43] * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
# [14:44] <hsivonen> q+
# [14:44] * Zakim sees jgraham, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [14:44] * Joins: Travis (~tleithea@public.cloak)
# [14:44] <paulc> q+
# [14:44] * Zakim sees jgraham, hsivonen, paulc on the speaker queue
# [14:44] <cabanier> Stevef: maybe having a digest would be helpful. so you inbox is not filled up
# [14:44] * odinho_ wasn't the digest only for admin-stuff?
# [14:45] * Joins: David_MacD_Lenovo (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [14:45] * Joins: tomoyuki_ (~tshimizu3@public.cloak)
# [14:45] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tshimizu3@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [14:45] * tomoyuki_ is now known as tomoyuki
# [14:45] <cabanier> jgraham: we have to make sure to not fragment the knowledge
# [14:45] <cabanier> jgraham: …because things are moved to other lists
# [14:45] <Stevef> odinho: yes
# [14:45] <jgraham> ack jgraham
# [14:45] * Zakim sees hsivonen, paulc on the speaker queue
# [14:45] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:46] * Parts: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [14:46] <jgraham> ack hsivonen
# [14:46] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [14:46] <cabanier> mjs: do people that this is a current/future problem -> 7 people
# [14:47] <cabanier> hsivonen: it could be that the solution is worse than the problem. (solution = multiple mailing list)
# [14:47] <odinho_> s/having a digest/having a digest for administrativa/
# [14:47] <jgraham> ack paulc
# [14:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:47] * karl reminds Stevef that digests are a "full time job" to write. It is long if you want to write something comprehensive and helpful for others.
# [14:47] <cabanier> paulc: I want to point out that you're autosubscribed to the announce, public and html list
# [14:48] * plh rrsagent, generate minutes
# [14:48] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html plh
# [14:48] * darobin karl: we could automate the digests to some degree
# [14:48] <Stevef> karl: talking about auto digest
# [14:48] <cabanier> paulc: it used to be that public-html got every update on bugs
# [14:48] <karl> s/karl:/karl,/
# [14:48] <cabanier> paulc: …now it seems that people don't even want to see the new bugs
# [14:49] * Joins: MyNickName (~default@public.cloak)
# [14:49] * karl darobin, I would be happy to see an example of what it would give.
# [14:49] <cabanier> paulc: people want public-html to be heavily about technical discussion
# [14:49] * Quits: shige__ (~shige@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:49] <cabanier> paulc: we could move the CFC's to public-announce
# [14:50] * darobin karl: well, for bugzilla for instance you can get a list of all the titles of the new bugs for the week
# [14:50] <cabanier> paulc: … I prefer not to get digests because it's not helping
# [14:50] * darobin thinks that that would work relatively easily
# [14:50] <cabanier> paulc: the chairs could do a better job of starting technical discussion
# [14:51] * karl darobin to try. I fear the spam, but why not trying.
# [14:51] <jgraham> q?
# [14:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:51] <cabanier> glenn: there have been 9500 message on www-style. public-html it's 3500
# [14:51] * karl is still wondering about restarting the open web summary. It takes a lot of time to do and I have another job to do. :)
# [14:52] <cabanier> glenn: …this year so far. there's far less traffic on this list
# [14:52] * Quits: MyNickName (~default@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [14:52] <adrianba> also good evidence that people are staying away from public-html
# [14:52] <cabanier> darobin: I think people are complaining about the content (process decisions etc)
# [14:52] * darobin karl, you mean bugspam? isn't it better to get that in digest
# [14:52] <cabanier> mjs: is there another distinct problem?
# [14:53] * Joins: Norm (~Norm@public.cloak)
# [14:53] <cabanier> *silence*
# [14:53] * Quits: MichaelC_ (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:53] <cabanier> mjs:
# [14:54] <cabanier> mjs: I want it to be a great place for technical discussion. Thanks for the feedback.
# [14:54] * Quits: markw (~markw@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:54] * Quits: MartinSoukup (~martin.soukup@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:54] * karl darobin aaaah… I start to see what you mean by digest. I guess some people are afraid by the number of emails. I don't have this issue it is automatically filtered in views. ok, make sense for people who do not use filtering/dynamic views.
# [14:55] * Joins: Travis_ (~tleithea@public.cloak)
# [14:55] * Quits: pal (~pal@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:55] <adrianba> Topic: Bug 14689
# [14:55] <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14689
# [14:55] * Joins: nkic (~Norifumi_Kikkawa@public.cloak)
# [14:55] <cabanier> Norm: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14689
# [14:55] * Joins: kinji_ (~kinji@public.irc.w3.org)
# [14:56] <cabanier> Norm: there is no expectation for a normative change
# [14:56] * Quits: Joshue108 (~Joshue@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [14:56] <cabanier> norm: look at comment 35.
# [14:56] <adrianba> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14689#c35 Comment 35
# [14:56] <cabanier> norm: the second to last comment
# [14:56] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17976#c2 seems relevant for what needs to be done
# [14:56] <cabanier> mjs: could you give an overview of the technical issue
# [14:57] * Quits: JohnS (~JohnS@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [14:57] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [14:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [14:58] <annevk> there we go http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/33421267632/scumbag-steve-is-worried-browsers-will-stop
# [14:58] <MikeSmith> q?
# [14:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:58] <annevk> (old meme)
# [14:58] <cabanier> norm: xml core would like a non-normative note that this issue exists
# [14:58] <adrianba> q?
# [14:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [14:58] <adrianba> q+
# [14:58] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [14:59] <hober> q+ mjs
# [14:59] * Zakim sees adrianba, mjs on the speaker queue
# [14:59] <krisk> ...today browsers support text/xslt in the PI at the top of a xhtml document
# [14:59] * odinho_ you can often fix that by hitting ctrl+f11 in Opera. Nice feature ;P
# [14:59] <paulc> Proposed solution is in: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14689#c35
# [14:59] * Joins: tomoyuki_ (~tshimizu3@public.cloak)
# [14:59] <SimonPieters> s/xslt/xsl/
# [14:59] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tshimizu3@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [14:59] * Quits: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak) (Norbert)
# [14:59] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest removing the mention of "or application/xslt+xml"
# [14:59] * tomoyuki_ is now known as tomoyuki
# [14:59] * Zakim sees adrianba, mjs, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [14:59] <adrianba> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-stylesheet/ Associating Style Sheets with XML documents 1.0
# [14:59] <annevk> again, the actual solution here is addressing https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17976#c2 ...
# [15:00] <annevk> I mean, if you want to solve the problem
# [15:00] <annevk> you know
# [15:00] <dsinger> q?
# [15:00] * Zakim sees adrianba, mjs, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [15:00] * Quits: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
# [15:00] <plh> ack adrian
# [15:00] * Zakim sees mjs, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [15:00] * Joins: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [15:00] <cabanier> adrianba: could you not fix the document: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-stylesheet/
# [15:00] * Quits: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:00] <annevk> q+ to see if mentioning https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17976#c2 has any effect
# [15:00] * Zakim sees mjs, MikeSmith, annevk on the speaker queue
# [15:01] <Norm> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17976#c2
# [15:01] <cabanier> darobin: I think it could start as an extension spec
# [15:01] <cabanier> darobin: can we agree to a non-normative note?
# [15:01] <jgraham> ack mjs
# [15:01] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, annevk on the speaker queue
# [15:01] <paulc> ack mjs
# [15:01] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, annevk on the speaker queue
# [15:02] * Joins: Bert (bbos@public.cloak)
# [15:02] <cabanier> mjs: it's my recollection when we did xslt, this was the spec we looked at
# [15:02] <MikeSmith> q- later
# [15:02] * Zakim sees annevk, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [15:02] <cabanier> mjs: …I don't know what problem we're solving with the non-normative note since we never needed it before
# [15:02] <cabanier> Norm: my recollection was that it was removed at one point
# [15:03] * Quits: kinji_ (~kinji@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:03] <cabanier> mjs: yes that was an earlier draft of html5
# [15:03] <cabanier> mjs: what problem are you solving:
# [15:03] <cabanier> Norm: since it's non-normative note, I'm not sure
# [15:03] * Joins: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
# [15:04] <cabanier> Norm: the point of the HMTL5 spec. We would like to see some hint of this issue to be restored
# [15:04] <Jirka> q+
# [15:04] * Zakim sees annevk, MikeSmith, Jirka on the speaker queue
# [15:04] <cabanier> mjs: I still don't understand the purpose of the note. why xslt style sheets
# [15:05] <cabanier> mjs: we can leave it up to the editors
# [15:05] <hober> q?
# [15:05] <annevk> q-
# [15:05] * Zakim sees annevk, MikeSmith, Jirka on the speaker queue
# [15:05] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, Jirka on the speaker queue
# [15:05] <MikeSmith> q-
# [15:05] * Zakim sees Jirka on the speaker queue
# [15:05] <paulc> The request is to add this text to the following location in the HTML5 spec: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/history.html#read-xml
# [15:05] <cabanier> glenn: I support Norm's request and there is some language in the CSS spc
# [15:05] <adrianba> q?
# [15:05] * Zakim sees Jirka on the speaker queue
# [15:06] <cabanier> annevk: there is bug 17976
# [15:06] <cabanier> annevk: that lists the solution to this problem
# [15:06] <paulc> See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17976
# [15:06] <hsivonen> q+
# [15:06] * Zakim sees Jirka, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:06] <cabanier> DanielAustin: my proposal is to make this an editorial choice
# [15:07] <cabanier> q?
# [15:07] * Zakim sees Jirka, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:07] <adrianba> ack next
# [15:07] * Zakim sees Jirka at the head of the speaker queue
# [15:07] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:07] <paulc> ack Jirka
# [15:07] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:07] <cabanier> Jirka: there is a document that describes what it should do when it encounters xml
# [15:08] * Quits: LeonieWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
# [15:08] * Joins: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak)
# [15:08] * Joins: Joshue108 (~Joshue@public.cloak)
# [15:09] <jgraham> q?
# [15:09] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [15:09] <Jirka> s/ it encounters xml/ it encounters xml and xml-stylesheets is not mentioned here although browsers honour it/
# [15:09] <jgraham> ack hsivonen
# [15:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:09] <cabanier> hsivonen: I think we can just put the language in there to put the concern that this feature is going to removed at rest.
# [15:09] <paulc> +1
# [15:09] <Jirka> s/there is a document that/HTML spec /
# [15:09] * Joins: MartinSoukup (~martin.soukup@public.cloak)
# [15:09] <Jirka> +1 to hsivonen
# [15:10] <darobin> +1 to hsivonen
# [15:10] <cabanier> DanielAustin: I want to insert this note too. Since we use it in our systems
# [15:10] * Joins: pal (~pal@public.cloak)
# [15:10] <cabanier> DanielAustin: … leaving it out seems like an omission to me
# [15:11] * Quits: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak) (Wonsuk)
# [15:11] <cabanier> mjs: maybe we should have discussed xslt style sheet processing
# [15:12] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [15:12] <cabanier> mjs: no interest because lack of time
# [15:12] <cabanier> all: yes
# [15:12] <Stevef> main element spec https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-extensions/raw-file/tip/maincontent/index.html
# [15:12] <Stevef> main element rationale http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Sfaulkne/main-usecases#Introduction
# [15:12] <Stevef> data in support of the feature http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Oct/0109.html
# [15:12] <cabanier> topic: the main element spec
# [15:12] <Stevef> examples of use of the main/content id value to identify the main content area of a page http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/HTML5-main-content/
# [15:12] <Stevef> data source http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/04/html5-accessibility-chops-data-for-the-masses/
# [15:13] <cabanier> Stevef: (listing the specs and the data)
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# [15:13] <cabanier> Stevef: … the idea is that the main element is a simple structure element
# [15:13] * Quits: Joshue108 (~Joshue@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:13] <cabanier> Stevef: … it identifies the main area of content of the web page
# [15:14] * Quits: Travis_ (~tleithea@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:14] <cabanier> Stevef: … like article, side, section, etc
# [15:14] <cabanier> Stevef: … but we don't have a marker for the main area because the idea that what is not marked up is the main content
# [15:15] <cabanier> Stevef: … so everything else needs to be marked up correctly
# [15:15] * Quits: Travis (~tleithea@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:15] <cabanier> Stevef: … this can tie in with ARIA roles.
# [15:15] * fantasai thought <article> was supposed to be used for this
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# [15:15] <cabanier> Stevef: …since we don't have a main element that can map to this role
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# [15:16] <glenn> s/language in the CSS spc/language in the CSSOM spec/
# [15:16] <cabanier> Stevef: …the main element is a tradition and people have been doing it for a long time
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# [15:17] <cabanier> Stevef: …people create this structure in their mind so why not add it to the structure
# [15:17] <glenn> fyi, re: HTML vs CSS ML traffic in 2012, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Nov/att-0011/mail-list-traffic.htm
# [15:17] <cabanier> Stevef: … Search engines could use it to optimize their algorithms
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# [15:18] <cabanier> Stevef: I would like to hear comments. I've had feedback from browser vendors that it's not hard to implement
# [15:18] <cabanier> Stevef: … but there has been not much excitement
# [15:19] * karl thanks glenn I would have sent it to www-archive@w3.org (for the next time).
# [15:19] <cabanier> Stevef: … however accessibility implementors are
# [15:19] <cabanier> Stevef: … also authors and users are keen on using this feature
# [15:19] <cabanier> fantasai: I believe <article> was meant for this. What is the problem with it?
# [15:20] <hsivonen> q+
# [15:20] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
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# [15:20] <cabanier> Stevef: you can have many articles on the page. It's a different semantical things
# [15:20] <hsivonen> q-
# [15:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:20] <cabanier> mjs: the main content can't be an article at all. It's semantically wrong to use it for this?
# [15:21] <cabanier> hsivonen: the spec says so too. article is broader
# [15:21] <fantasai> hsivonen: e.g. it is also used for blog comments
# [15:21] <cabanier> mjs: does anyone here think it's a bad idea?
# [15:21] * Quits: Yoshihiro (~Yoshihiro@public.irc.w3.org) ("")
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# [15:21] <cabanier> glenn: yes. (However I didn't read the spec)
# [15:22] <cabanier> glenn: it sounds too generic
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# [15:22] <SimonPieters> q?
# [15:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:22] <SimonPieters> q+
# [15:22] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [15:22] <cabanier> Stevef: it used to be called 'main content' but after feedback from people like Maciej we shortened it to <main>
# [15:23] <LeonieWatson> +1 to the main element extension.
# [15:23] <cabanier> SimonPieters: Hixie refuses this idea
# [15:23] <jgraham> q?
# [15:23] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [15:23] <jgraham> ack SimonPieters
# [15:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:24] <cabanier> cynthia: the main content area is not always an article
# [15:24] <jgraham> q+ DanielAustin
# [15:24] * Zakim sees DanielAustin on the speaker queue
# [15:24] <odinho_> ack danielfilho
# [15:24] * Zakim sees DanielAustin on the speaker queue
# [15:25] <jgraham> ack DanielAustin
# [15:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:25] <Jirka> q+
# [15:25] * Zakim sees Jirka on the speaker queue
# [15:25] <cabanier> DanielAustin: the majority of authors are doing this. There is a lot of demand for this to create this semantic difference
# [15:25] <cabanier> mjs: does anyone know why hixie doesn't want this?
# [15:26] <cabanier> jgraham: he believes there is no use case for having a separate algorithm.
# [15:26] <MikeSmith> aka process of elimination
# [15:26] <Stevef> q+
# [15:26] * Zakim sees Jirka, Stevef on the speaker queue
# [15:26] <cabanier> jgraham: … subtract every element that has no semantic
# [15:26] <cabanier> jgraham: … also known as the scooby doo algorithm
# [15:26] <odinho_> q+
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# [15:26] <cabanier> everyone: we believe so too
# [15:27] <cabanier> paulc: will that resolve to more than 1 element?
# [15:27] <cabanier> jgraham: yes
# [15:27] * adrianba Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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# [15:27] <adrianba> q?
# [15:27] * Zakim sees Jirka, Stevef, odinho_ on the speaker queue
# [15:27] <fantasai> q+
# [15:27] <cabanier> q?
# [15:27] * Zakim sees Jirka, Stevef, odinho_, fantasai on the speaker queue
# [15:27] * Zakim sees Jirka, Stevef, odinho_, fantasai on the speaker queue
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# [15:28] * dsinger_ is now known as dsinger
# [15:28] <glenn> naive question: why not use class or role?
# [15:28] <jgraham> ack Jirka
# [15:28] * Zakim sees Stevef, odinho_, fantasai on the speaker queue
# [15:29] <fantasai> jirka: Suppose I have a very simple web page with no navigation, etc., just content
# [15:29] <fantasai> Jirka: Does this mean I have to add a <main> element to it now?
# [15:29] * Quits: Kiyoshi_ (~Kiyoshi@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:30] <fantasai> ??: For a11y, need to be able to skip navigation etc. to the beginning of the main content. Currently use e.g. skip links for it
# [15:30] <fantasai> ??:: That's the main use case
# [15:30] * Quits: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:30] <jgraham> q+
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# [15:30] <fantasai> ??: So in your example, you don't need a <main>
# [15:30] <SimonPieters> s/??/Stevef/
# [15:31] <jgraham> q-
# [15:31] * Zakim sees Stevef, odinho_, fantasai on the speaker queue
# [15:31] <SimonPieters> ack Stevef
# [15:31] * Zakim sees odinho_, fantasai on the speaker queue
# [15:31] <fantasai> Stevef: It's easier to mark up just the <main> content than to rely on everythign else to be correctly marked up
# [15:31] <jgraham> ack odinho_
# [15:31] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
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# [15:32] <cabanier> odinho: you could say that the main element is not needed by elemination
# [15:32] <timeless> ack Stevef
# [15:32] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
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# [15:32] <cabanier> odinho: BUT it's much easier for authors to use such a thing and you often find that they already do it
# [15:32] <fantasai> odinho_: You already need such an algorithm for pages that don't have a <main>
# [15:32] * Quits: nkic (~Norifumi_Kikkawa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:32] * timeless SimonPieters was the for a11y + that's also Stevef ?
# [15:33] <cabanier> odinho: I don't see a problem apart from introducing new HTML elements
# [15:33] <cabanier> odinho: … jumping to the main content would be easier
# [15:33] * SimonPieters timeless: i think so but not 100% sure
# [15:33] <hober> q+
# [15:33] * Zakim sees fantasai, hober on the speaker queue
# [15:33] <cabanier> odinho: .. especially if different ally tools start implementing it
# [15:33] <timeless> s/ally/a11y/
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# [15:34] <hober> ack fantasai
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# [15:34] <jgraham> ack hober
# [15:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [15:34] <cabanier> fantasai: I think these are good points.
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# [15:35] <cabanier> hober: I don't have a strong feeling about this. Steve did a great job on researching this
# [15:35] <cabanier> DanielAustin: a really good use case is to strip off content for screen reader
# [15:35] <timeless> s/??: For a11y/Stevef: For a11y/
# [15:35] * Quits: tomoyuki_ (~tshimizu3@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [15:36] <timeless> s/??:: That/Stevef: That/
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# [15:36] * odinho_ cabanier fantasai -- scribes write what I say much better than I manage to say it...
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# [16:04] <ddorwin> scribe:ddorwin
# [16:04] * Quits: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
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# [16:04] <ddorwin> topic: Update on testing TF
# [16:04] <ddorwin> kris: presenting slide given to AC
# [16:05] <ddorwin> kris: 11907 tests with consensus are correct and valid
# [16:05] * odinho_ RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html odinho_
# [16:05] <ddorwin> kris: presents new contributors since TPAC 2011
# [16:06] <ddorwin> kris: public-html-testsuite@w3.org list. It's pretty quiet. Feel free to participate.
# [16:06] <ddorwin> kris: … new activity: http://testthewebforward.org
# [16:08] <ddorwin> kris: Presents Testing Task Force Status showing test results. 17 tests only pass in one implementation. 11 do not pass in any
# [16:08] <ddorwin> kris: We do not have enough tests.
# [16:08] <ddorwin> kris: … everything at risk needs tests
# [16:09] <ddorwin> kris: questions?
# [16:09] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [16:09] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I don't know what conference this is
# [16:09] <Zakim> On IRC I see Arno, Kiyoshi_, shoko, jcraig, kotakagi, DanielAustin, tomoyuki, Takahiro_, Norbert, r12a, mjs, Yoshihiro, Judy_clone, sgodard, dveditz, dbaron, Bert,
# [16:09] <Zakim> ... David_MacD_Lenovo, naomi, JonathanJ1, Shinji, drublic, koji, paulc, cabanier
# [16:09] <ddorwin> paulc: regarding the page showing test status - what is the correlation of acceptance of tests and pass rates
# [16:09] <ddorwin> kris: WebIDL tests haven't been accepted.
# [16:10] <jgraham> q+
# [16:10] * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
# [16:10] <Mark_Vickers> q+
# [16:10] * Zakim sees jgraham, Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [16:10] <ddorwin> paulc: If I saw this chart for the unapproved test, I would see more red. Would I see some green?
# [16:10] <ddorwin> ??: Yes, some green. Authors of the test usually pass the tests.
# [16:11] <ddorwin> ??: … A lot of the passing tests are parsing tests. We have 4 good parsers.
# [16:11] <SimonPieters> s/??/jgraham/
# [16:11] <jgraham> ack jgraham
# [16:11] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [16:11] <ddorwin> kris: A number of canvas(?) tests.
# [16:12] <ddorwin> Mark_Vickers: Do you have a sense of the goal? What is enough? Do you have a sense of coverage?
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# [16:12] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [16:12] <ddorwin> kris: People have created tests as they add features to their browsers.
# [16:12] <jgraham> ack Mark_Vickers
# [16:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:12] <ddorwin> kris: … What we don't have is tests across the specification.
# [16:13] <ddorwin> Philip: Tried to determine what from the specification the tests are trying to cover.
# [16:13] <ddorwin> Philip: 2400 files, but only 700 are covered
# [16:13] <jgraham> q+
# [16:13] * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
# [16:14] <ddorwin> Philip: Some of the test files have many tests in them
# [16:14] * Quits: Jirka (~jirka@public.cloak) (Jirka)
# [16:14] * darobin plh: could you list the number of tests without metadata at the top (perhaps with a link to a page that lists them) so that we can track that (and see it drop)?
# [16:15] * darobin plh: normally testharness.js should be able to give you the information about the tests in the file (without actually running them)
# [16:15] <ddorwin> On screen is a table showing the data. Includes caniuse data in column 3.
# [16:16] <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
# [16:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
# [16:16] * plh darobin, yep. easy.
# [16:16] * Joins: cyns (~43a88369@public.cloak)
# [16:16] <cyns> q?
# [16:16] * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
# [16:16] <darobin> ack jgraham
# [16:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:16] <adrianba> s/scribenick: cabanier/scribenick: cabanier1/
# [16:16] <cyns> q+ to ask about aria integration testing
# [16:16] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [16:16] <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
# [16:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
# [16:17] <ddorwin> jgraham: the goal of the W3C is to lead the way. One of the goals is to make sure the standards are interoperable. More than getting individual to standards, we want to make them interoperable. We want to get rid of bugs that make it difficult to write interoperable apps.
# [16:17] <ddorwin> jgraham: If there are tests that show a problem with interop, we should have a way of accepting that test regardless of process.
# [16:18] <ddorwin> jgraham: It's not necessarily clear how we balance those two concerns. We don't want to be dropping/refusing tests because we have an immediate goal to get to Rec.
# [16:18] <Mark_Vickers> q+
# [16:18] * Zakim sees cyns, Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [16:18] <ddorwin> kris: With the 2014 plan, we have a risk that we end up with tests that no one passes or only one passes
# [16:18] <SimonPieters> q?
# [16:18] * Zakim sees cyns, Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [16:18] <plh> ack Mark
# [16:18] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [16:19] <darobin> q?
# [16:19] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [16:19] <ddorwin> Mark_Vickers: I think we have to split off the goals of testing for the purpose of the publication process vs. testing for developer support (i.e. webplatform.org). I wouldn't want to have to burden publication by saying every possible test. I would like us to take on the non-spec goal.
# [16:19] <ddorwin> jgraham: I agree, but we have to have a way of separating out the tests that everyone has to pass before we get to rec.
# [16:20] * Judy_clone is now known as Judy
# [16:20] <adrianba> ack cyns
# [16:20] <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to ask about aria integration testing
# [16:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:20] <ddorwin> ???: We have to have the discipline to continue doing that
# [16:20] <Mark_Vickers> sorry i jumped the queue
# [16:20] <ddorwin> cyns: Asks about Aria. It's being tested against HTML4, not HTML5. We have a huge set of tests.
# [16:20] * darobin cyns: can you hear krisk?
# [16:20] <jgraham> q?
# [16:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:21] * Quits: takuya (~takuya@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:21] <ddorwin> kris: Currently all tests are in one big folder that spans multiple specs. we should separate them out.
# [16:21] <ddorwin> kris: I'm not sure where the accessibility tests are.
# [16:21] * Quits: dveditz (~dveditz@public.cloak) (dveditz)
# [16:21] <ddorwin> kris: We really need to submit them to the repository.
# [16:22] <ddorwin> cyns: They are a bit complicated
# [16:22] <SimonPieters> s/???/Doug_Schepers/
# [16:22] <ddorwin> cyns: Michael Cooper is the person to talk to.
# [16:22] * matt jgraham++ for his mic technique.
# [16:22] * SimonPieters wonders if doug is on irc
# [16:22] <ddorwin> kris: Polyglot has a similar problem.
# [16:22] <ddorwin> kris: Problems with screen readers on browser/OS combinations
# [16:22] <ddorwin> cyns: We're not using screen readers.
# [16:22] * matt SimonPieters he is, shepazu I just asked him to join #html-wg
# [16:23] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [16:23] * shepazu heard his name?
# [16:23] * matt you have to invite a werewolf in.
# [16:23] * Quits: Takahiro_ (~takahiro@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:23] * matt no, that's vampires, isn't it?
# [16:23] <SimonPieters> s/Doug_Schepers/shepazu/
# [16:23] * gsnedders thought that was vampires
# [16:23] <ddorwin> kris: Could definitely use experts on this in the testing WG
# [16:23] <adrianba> q?
# [16:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:23] <ddorwin> s/kris:/krisk:/
# [16:24] <ddorwin> s/kris: /krisk: /
# [16:24] <ddorwin> paulc: I don't believe we have transparency about the table and is it available or when it will be available. Is there a plan for a plan?
# [16:25] <ddorwin> krisk: It's tough to produce this table and took a lot of hours.
# [16:25] <ddorwin> kris: Put metadata in the tests (?)
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# [16:26] * Joins: gk (~gk@public.cloak)
# [16:26] <ddorwin> paulc: With our HTML5 public permissive CR exit criteria, identifying the places where we have some public evidence of interop is the best way to show where we need more tests to get out of CR. People may still want to provide more tests in that area. Going to testthewebforward and saying these are the places we need tests because we don't have any evidence would be curcial
# [16:26] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [16:27] * shepazu SimonPieters, you were looking for me?
# [16:27] * SimonPieters shepazu only for autocomplete purposes for the scribe
# [16:27] <ddorwin> jgraham: Unless we know which tests go with which sections, it's hard to tell which sections need more tests. Quantity of tests is not necessarily a good measure.
# [16:28] <SimonPieters> q?
# [16:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:28] <ddorwin> jgraham: Doing this work is hard. There is no magical process or metadata. Writing tests is hard creative work.
# [16:28] * shepazu ah, ok
# [16:28] <Mark_Vickers> q+
# [16:28] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [16:28] <ddorwin> kris: Agreement on changing directory structure
# [16:28] <ddorwin> kris: Approved vs. submitted is important.
# [16:29] <ddorwin> jgraham: Approved vs. submitted has caused problems, such as when you move files around.
# [16:29] <SimonPieters> q+
# [16:29] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [16:29] <ddorwin> jgraham: Preference to have directory structure based on where in the spec it is.
# [16:29] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [16:29] <ddorwin> jgraham: Have approved vs. submitted as metadata
# [16:30] <ddorwin> jgraham: Use scratch folder or branches for stuff people want to check in
# [16:30] <SimonPieters> ack Mark_Vickers
# [16:30] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [16:30] <gsnedders> Or separate repos entirely.
# [16:30] <ddorwin> Mark_Vickers: Related to testing devices & the work on WebDriver - Is there a goal that all of these should work with WebDriver.
# [16:30] <gsnedders> (Given we're using a DVCS)
# [16:30] <ddorwin> krisk: There is not requirement that tests must work with WebDriver.
# [16:31] <ddorwin> krisk: AppCache is an example of something that couldn't be done with WebDriver. Playing a video and listening for sound as well.
# [16:32] <ddorwin> jgraham: You could write a harness to run the tests. For JS tests, it's easy to run them without WebDriver. There are hooks that enable this.
# [16:33] <ddorwin> jgraham: We prefer ref tests. These can be implemented in WebDriver.
# [16:33] <jgraham> q?
# [16:33] * Zakim sees SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [16:33] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:34] * Joins: MartinSoukup (~martin.soukup@public.cloak)
# [16:34] <ddorwin> krisk: Early our principle was that we wanted tests available to everyone and to support everyone.
# [16:34] <hober> ack SimonPieters
# [16:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:35] <ddorwin> SimonPieter: Submitted and approved directories - the point is that things in Approved have been reviewed. But we don't have a good process for reviews and revising the tests after review.
# [16:35] <ddorwin> s/SimonPieter/SimonPieters/
# [16:35] <ddorwin> SimonPieters: Proposes using branches and tests in the main branch are always reviewed.
# [16:36] <Mark_Vickers> q+
# [16:36] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [16:36] <gsnedders> (And the experience in general is we never actually review half the tests, they just get moved through by virtue of no objections)
# [16:36] <ddorwin> ????: Do you have a review tool?
# [16:36] <ddorwin> SimonPieters: Yes.
# [16:36] <ddorwin> krisk: Would like to have a review tool.
# [16:36] * darobin krisk: just FYI I can see evidence that there is at least some support for turning the browser offline in WebDriver
# [16:37] <ddorwin> jgraham: If we move the workflow to github then push to Mercurial, that gives us a review tool. Using the github review tool, however limited it is.
# [16:37] <ddorwin> discussion of how this would work
# [16:37] <JonathanJ1> I think we can host next F2F meeting in Seoul.
# [16:38] <SimonPieters> q?
# [16:38] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [16:38] * darobin wonders: should we try out epic on w3c-test.org? cc MikeSmith SimonPieters odinho_ jgraham
# [16:38] <ddorwin> Mark_Vickers: In terms of tackling the large problem, there are a few paths. You mentioned donation. Another is crowdsourcing through testthewebforward.
# [16:38] * darobin err, critic
# [16:38] * odinho_ lol, epic, like tcr
# [16:38] * darobin though I'm sure it's epic
# [16:38] * gsnedders notes it only supports git
# [16:39] <JonathanJ1> we were already hosted many W3C WG meeting. DAP WG, Media Annotation, MWBP WG ...
# [16:39] * Quits: David_MacD_Lenovo (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427]")
# [16:39] * gsnedders JonathanJ1 Right channel?
# [16:39] * darobin suggests to gsnedders that that might just actually be a feature :)
# [16:39] <JonathanJ1> OMG
# [16:39] <ddorwin> Mark_Vickers: Other ideas: 1) Break down the spec into sections and assign responsibility for testing a section to companies - to figure out a test plan, etc. 2) Outsourcing - pay for testing to be done. Might have to get additional funding, but it might be worth it.
# [16:39] * gsnedders just wonders about how we're dealing with the git/mercurial divide
# [16:39] * JonathanJ1 OMG... sorry.
# [16:39] * SimonPieters darobin yeah. we could try the review tool csswg uses as well, i don't have experience with that
# [16:40] <ddorwin> krisk: I don't think anyone is opposed to getting companies to do things.
# [16:40] * gsnedders JonathanJ1 We've all been there :)
# [16:40] <JonathanJ1> s/I think we can host next F2F meeting in Seoul.//
# [16:40] * MikeSmith to darobin yeah I think it would be worth setting it up and trialing it
# [16:40] * darobin SimonPieters: having worked with the other half of that tool, I'm a little scared of having to use more of it
# [16:40] <ddorwin> kirsk: Hasn't been a lot of stickniess with testthewebfordard. Usually a 1-day thing.
# [16:40] * odinho_ gsnedders Many people like Git :D Ms2ger doesn't come to TPAC so we have consensus :P
# [16:40] * gsnedders thinks we have too much backchannel chat going on now :P
# [16:41] * SimonPieters darobin: you mean the csswg review tool?
# [16:41] * darobin SimonPieters: yes
# [16:41] <ddorwin> jgraham: Of course getting people to write tests is good, but from a browser POV, I don't think it would work. The priority is to write tests when they are implementing. It seems unlikely they would pull people off implementing to write tests.
# [16:41] * gsnedders (not that I can front-channel chat)
# [16:41] * SimonPieters darobin: ok, i guess that's a relevant data point
# [16:41] * darobin SimonPieters: it's the same backend as http://w3c-test.org/framework/app/ and that's not very friendly to being maintained
# [16:42] * fantasai seconds what jgraham is saying, from prior experience
# [16:42] <ddorwin> jgraham: Regarding hiring people to write tests, the trick is to make it good people. There is a strong concentration in browser vendors and other places of people that are good at writing tests. That's not always the case.
# [16:42] <SimonPieters> q?
# [16:42] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [16:42] <ddorwin> jgraham: The places where tests are missing are the complicated bits.
# [16:42] <ddorwin> paulc: Describes previous expereience.
# [16:43] * Quits: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:43] <ddorwin> paulc: A majority of the 25,000 tests in that WG were written by NIST. Not an implementor, but they had test writers.
# [16:43] * gsnedders what WG?
# [16:43] <fantasai> XML Schema
# [16:43] <ddorwin> paulc: This is part of plan 2014
# [16:44] <odinho_> s/that WG/the XML Schema WG/
# [16:44] * gsnedders fantasai, odinho_: thx
# [16:44] <odinho_> s/XML Schema//
# [16:44] <ddorwin> paulc: Do we have any sponsorship money left?
# [16:44] <Mark_Vickers> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Recruitment/#qmgr
# [16:45] <ddorwin> plh: I don't have the answer yet. Hoping by the end of the month.
# [16:45] <SimonPieters> ack Mark_Vickers
# [16:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:45] * Quits: Arno (~Arnaud@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:45] <ddorwin> plh: The link from Mark_Vickers is not the right posting.
# [16:46] <Mark_Vickers> oops
# [16:46] <ddorwin> krisk: I feel we have tapped all our resources, in terms of browsers participating.
# [16:46] * fantasai notes that the fragID is broken there /cc plh
# [16:46] <ddorwin> krisk: Maybe there is something that could be done in terms of membership.
# [16:47] <ddorwin> krisk: Find organizations that care about testsing
# [16:47] <DanielAustin> queue+
# [16:47] * Zakim sees DanielAustin on the speaker queue
# [16:47] <ddorwin> jgraham: We have not tapped browser vendors. We could do better at getting browser vendors to write tests that others can use.
# [16:47] <gsnedders> And release the ones they have.
# [16:48] <SimonPieters> q?
# [16:48] * Zakim sees DanielAustin on the speaker queue
# [16:48] * fantasai gsnedders++
# [16:48] <ddorwin> jgraham: We should have a conversation about whether there are things we can do to make it easier.
# [16:48] <SimonPieters> ack DanielAustin
# [16:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:48] * Quits: yamaday (~yamaday@public.cloak) ("TakIRC")
# [16:48] <ddorwin> DanielAustin: In previous incarnations, we reached out to the HTML Writers Guild. I don't know whether we've reached out to them.
# [16:49] <ddorwin> jgraham & krisk: not aware
# [16:49] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:49] * Joins: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak)
# [16:49] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [16:49] <DanielAustin> http://hwg.org/
# [16:49] * darobin err, XML Schema didn't have tests when it shipped, did it? I think the NIST thing was for XML 1.0
# [16:49] * darobin which was indeed very well tested
# [16:49] * fantasai jgraham++
# [16:50] <ddorwin> mjs: Looking at agenda.
# [16:50] * Quits: gk (~gk@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [16:51] <ddorwin> mjs: remaining items: issue 204, remaining issues, Alt Guidance, Other FPWDs.
# [16:51] * gsnedders thinks fantasai is just incrementing people now :)
# [16:51] <ddorwin> mjs: Asks if there is interest in these.
# [16:51] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:51] * fantasai just generally has a high opinion of colleagues from Opera :)
# [16:51] * darobin issue-204 is sort of the httpRange-14 of the HTML WG :)
# [16:51] * gsnedders hadn't noticed it was just Opera people, either :)
# [16:51] <ddorwin> skipping 204
# [16:52] <ddorwin> topic: Tracker Requests
# [16:52] <ddorwin> paulc: Tracker Requests are bugs that have been addressed by an editor but someone disagreed with and added the Tracker label.
# [16:53] <ddorwin> paulc/Robin: None of the current tracker bugs were disposed of by a current editor
# [16:53] <ddorwin> mjs: is anyone interested in each of these.
# [16:54] * Joins: Arno (~Arnaud@public.cloak)
# [16:54] * Quits: Magnus_Olsson (~Magnus_Olsson@public.irc.w3.org) ("Page closed")
# [16:54] <ddorwin> paulc: drag-and-drop processing model - could not find anyone in this meeting. We don't have the right people.
# [16:55] * matt pinged Tobie about drag and drop
# [16:55] <ddorwin> paulc: 18384 adaptive image mechanism. I think the chairs should deal with this.
# [16:55] <SimonPieters> q?
# [16:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [16:55] <DanielAustin> link to this tracker list?
# [16:56] * odinho_ he already wrote it :P
# [16:56] <ddorwin> paulc: 18384 - Chairs to investigate whether to deal with the tracker request
# [16:56] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tshimizu3@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
# [16:56] <ddorwin> mjs: 13614 <th abbr="">
# [16:56] <matt> -> http://intertwingly.net/tmp/wgstatus.html#tracker-requests Tracker Requests
# [16:56] * matt not same on the screen unfortunately, but what is linked in the agenda.
# [16:56] <ddorwin> SimonPieters: That bug appears to be fixed. Should we remove Tracker
# [16:57] <odinho_> q+ fantasai
# [16:57] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
# [16:57] <DanielAustin> thx
# [16:57] <matt> -> http://w3.org/brief/Mjk3 Tracker Requests
# [16:57] * matt that one should be it.
# [16:57] <ddorwin> concern about adding more text that is meant to be read out (related to i18n)
# [16:57] <fantasai> into an attribute
# [16:58] <ddorwin> Chairs will determine the providence of the Tracker Request 13164.
# [16:58] <ddorwin> s/13164/13614/
# [16:58] <ddorwin> mjs: 13409 - Defining Entity references for characters in XHTML
# [16:58] <ddorwin> The room tries to figure out what it is about.
# [16:59] * Quits: Kiyoshi_ (~Kiyoshi@public.irc.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:59] * Quits: Judy (jbrewer@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:59] <ddorwin> mjs: i believe Sam said he would comment on this, and that it's an interop issue.
# [16:59] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [16:59] <ddorwin> Reviewing the comments in the issue.
# [17:00] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest we talk with David directly about this
# [17:00] * Zakim sees fantasai, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [17:01] <ddorwin> mjs: This is a feature request.
# [17:01] <fantasai> ack fantasai
# [17:01] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [17:01] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
# [17:01] <ddorwin> mjs: Most of these are extension specs, so they will likely be rejected unless someone makes an extension spec.
# [17:01] <darobin> [for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13614 TrackerRequest was added two weeks ago http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2012Oct/0350.html]
# [17:01] <ddorwin> mjs: … or 5.1.
# [17:01] <MikeSmith> q-
# [17:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:02] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tshimizu3@public.cloak)
# [17:02] <ddorwin> TOPIC: Alt Guidance and Alt text in the HTML5 Document Part 1: Analysis of Guidance
# [17:02] <ddorwin> paulc: We don't have the right people
# [17:02] <ddorwin> TOPIC: Other FPWDs
# [17:03] * Joins: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak)
# [17:03] <ddorwin> mjs: Anyone have such a document and want to propose it here?
# [17:03] * darobin is erika on IRC?
# [17:03] * Quits: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [17:03] * matt suggests we all go on vacation for three weeks.
# [17:03] * Joins: kotakagi2 (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
# [17:03] * Quits: Shinji (shinji@public.cloak)
# [17:03] <darobin> q+
# [17:03] * Zakim sees darobin on the speaker queue
# [17:03] <ddorwin> paulc: What is the process for getting extension specs to FPWD?
# [17:03] <ddorwin> paulc: It's not clear what the next step is after the WG gets a request.
# [17:04] <ddorwin> paluc: Travis suggested doing a CfC.
# [17:04] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tshimizu3@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:05] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:05] <ddorwin> mjs: How we have handled FPWDs in the past: First, we expect there to be some indication that the document is ready for FPWD. We have asked in a few cases to make it explicit to show some minimal number of independent contributors to the draft in order to show it is not just a 1-person project. Previously, we have required 3 independent contributors. A contributor can be someone who has filed a bug. We do a CfC. Usually the bar for objection is pretty high.
# [17:05] <SimonPieters> q+
# [17:05] * Zakim sees darobin, SimonPieters on the speaker queue
# [17:06] <ddorwin> mjs: This is outside the scope is a valid objection, but I don't like this generally is not at the FPWD stage.
# [17:06] <ddorwin> mjs: We haven't written down the process because we haven't expected a lot of them. But now we might with the new extension process.
# [17:06] <ddorwin> mjs: We may need to step back and create a process.
# [17:06] * matt just to be precise, that's WDs up to LC don't require consensus, from Last Call WD on (unless it goes back to WD) it does.
# [17:06] <hsivonen> q+
# [17:06] * Zakim sees darobin, SimonPieters, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:06] <ddorwin> mjs: Does anyone have comments on what should be the bar?
# [17:07] <SimonPieters> ack darobin
# [17:07] * Zakim sees SimonPieters, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:07] * Quits: kotakagi2 (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:07] * Joins: shige_ (~shige@public.cloak)
# [17:07] <ddorwin> darobin: I don't disagree that we might need a little bit of process, but we did discuss having less process this morning. It would be nice if process was minimal and maybe rough consensus.
# [17:07] <jgraham> ack SimonPieters
# [17:07] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:08] <ddorwin> SimponPieters: I think we should ask the question what is the implementation interest for what the spec is trying to target. For example, if the feature is targeted at search engines, we should ask if there is search engine interest.
# [17:08] <jgraham> ack hsivonen
# [17:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:08] <ddorwin> SimonPieters: If there isn't implementor interest, we should drop the draft even if there are 10 people involved.
# [17:09] * Quits: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:09] <DanielAustin> queue+
# [17:09] * Zakim sees DanielAustin on the speaker queue
# [17:09] <cabanier> q?
# [17:09] * Zakim sees DanielAustin on the speaker queue
# [17:09] <ddorwin> hsivonen: The general public will think that things this group publishes will be part of HTML5. We should have a filter at the start of the process. For the conformance classes addressed by the spec…(?)
# [17:10] <cabanier> q ?
# [17:10] * Zakim sees DanielAustin on the speaker queue
# [17:10] <ddorwin> Travis: I want to see less process and us having lots of extension specs because it gives us the opportunity for us to pick and choose and for the most popular ones to succeed. CSS 3 as an example.
# [17:11] * Quits: jkiss (~jkiss@public.cloak) (jkiss)
# [17:11] <ddorwin> Travis: We're already there in the public eye and browsers are not willy nilly with what they pick.
# [17:11] <hober> ack DanielAustin
# [17:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:11] * matt if you're just trying to avoid a junk FPWD, it should be noted that plh can and should reject the transition request.
# [17:11] <mjs> q+
# [17:11] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [17:11] <matt> q?
# [17:11] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [17:11] <hsivonen> q+
# [17:11] * Zakim sees mjs, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:12] <ddorwin> DanielAustin: Want to offer a counter example to previous speaker saying we should wait for implementor interest. if we had done that, we wouldn't have iframe.
# [17:12] <ddorwin> DainelAustin: I'd like to think of it as users driving implementors to what they need.
# [17:12] <hober> ack mjs
# [17:12] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [17:12] <jgraham> q+
# [17:12] * Zakim sees hsivonen, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [17:12] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [17:13] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
# [17:13] <ddorwin> mjs: (implementor hat): It is annoying when specs are published that are very likely never going to be implemented by anyone but purport to provide conformance criteria.
# [17:13] <ddorwin> mjs: … On the other hand, when someone is at the FPWD stage, I don't know whether it's something that we'll want to implemented.
# [17:14] <cyns> +1
# [17:14] <SimonPieters> q?
# [17:14] * Zakim sees hsivonen, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [17:14] <ddorwin> mjs: … Apple doesn't speak about future plans and wouldn't want the process to involve explicitly saying I'm interested in implementing this.
# [17:14] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("Computer has gone to sleep.")
# [17:15] <ddorwin> hsivonen: I'm not expecting any implementor to commit to anything. Rather, I'm expecting implementors to say this is a good idea as a spec. But not looking for a commit.
# [17:15] * Quits: Norbert (~standards@public.cloak) (Norbert)
# [17:15] <ddorwin> hsivonen: As for iframe, I though that came about from IE4 being developed at the same time as HTML4 and emerged as a feedback cycle.
# [17:16] <ddorwin> jgraham: I don't think that we should be putting things in FPWD just because we think that then the group might be able to force implementors to do things that certain members want.
# [17:16] <ddorwin> jgraham: I don't think the HTML WG is a good proxy for what users want.
# [17:16] <ddorwin> s/users/authors/
# [17:17] <paulc> q+
# [17:17] * Zakim sees hsivonen, jgraham, paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:17] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:17] <paulc> ack hs
# [17:17] * Zakim sees jgraham, paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:17] <paulc> ack jg
# [17:17] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:17] <ddorwin> jgraham: I don't want to have that type of forcing function just because it's in the group process.
# [17:17] <ddorwin> jgraham: Specs should have to survive on their own merit and not via branding
# [17:17] <DanielAustin> historical note: iframe appeared in IE4, was repeatedly rejected as a proprietary extension, until members complained that they really wanted it
# [17:18] <ddorwin> paulc: (Microsoft hat) The last thing we want is that FPWD means a majority of browser vendors have agreed to implement it.
# [17:18] <odinho_> DanielAustin: Those were also very very dark times... More or less everything is different today.
# [17:18] <ddorwin> paulc: I think a majority of the extensions fall on the end of the requirements that mjs suggested.
# [17:19] <ddorwin> paulc: MSE and EME are examples.
# [17:19] <DanielAustin> not as different as you may think :)
# [17:19] <jgraham> q+
# [17:19] * Zakim sees paulc, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [17:19] <ddorwin> paulc: Gives example of extremely credible effort done by one person.
# [17:19] * Quits: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
# [17:19] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [17:19] <ddorwin> paulc: For those specs that don't meet the requirements, please start saying so on the list.
# [17:20] <SimonPieters> ack paulc
# [17:20] * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
# [17:20] <mjs> q+
# [17:20] * Zakim sees jgraham, mjs on the speaker queue
# [17:20] <hober> ack jg
# [17:20] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [17:20] <ddorwin> paulc: Media TF is going overboard to make sure it doesn't ask for FPWD before it's too early. Making sure to get the design right and flatten as many bugs as possible before FPWD.
# [17:20] <cyns> +1 to say that there has been lots of discussion of the main element in the a11y-tf and in pf.
# [17:21] <hober> ack mjs
# [17:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:21] <SimonPieters> ack jgraham
# [17:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:21] <ddorwin> jgraham: One thing that made <main> more credible is that it appeared the author had obtained buy-in.
# [17:21] <jgraham> from implementors
# [17:21] <ddorwin> mjs: This is a lot easier to consider concretely than in abstract case.
# [17:21] * Quits: naomi (naomi@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:22] <ddorwin> mjs: For anything we have published, do you think it would not have passed?
# [17:22] <ddorwin> hsivonen: I think RDFa would not have passed.
# [17:22] <ddorwin> mjs: Disagrees
# [17:22] * Joins: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
# [17:23] <ddorwin> discussion of whether HTML+RDFa is implemented
# [17:23] <ddorwin> and whether it's use of syntax vs. the spec.
# [17:24] <ddorwin> mjs: Main Content and media specs have traction
# [17:24] <ddorwin> mjs: Unclear whether longdesc has implementation support but …
# [17:24] * Quits: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
# [17:24] <ddorwin> mjs: We probably don't need to create a process for a problem that doesn't exist.
# [17:24] <SimonPieters> q?
# [17:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:25] <ddorwin> paulc: If you look at the report the chairs gave to the AC, there is a reference to a F2F meeting in April 2013.
# [17:25] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [17:25] <ddorwin> paulc: We're expecting the new charter to say F2F meetings twice per year instead of once per year.
# [17:25] <ddorwin> paulc: Looking for a place in Silicon Valley. Possibly paired with WebApps.
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# [17:26] <ddorwin> paulc: If you want to volunteer a host site, talk to plh.
# [17:26] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [17:26] <ddorwin> paulc: Approximately April 22nd.
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# [17:26] <ddorwin> DanielAustin: We are looking at hosting (PayPal)
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# [17:27] <ddorwin> paulc: Thanks to WG members. Thanks to scribes.
# [17:27] <ddorwin> paulc: We'll see you on public-html
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# [17:27] <ddorwin> s/Philip/plh/
# [17:27] <ddorwin> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [17:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html ddorwin
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# [17:34] <ddorwin> s/Philip:/plh:/
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# [17:44] <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [17:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html matt
# [17:44] <matt> \
# [17:45] <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [17:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-html-wg-minutes.html matt
# [17:45] * matt testing new version of rrsagent ,sorry for the spam.
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# Session Close: Sat Nov 03 00:00:01 2012

The end :)