/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2013-02-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 19 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  30. # [11:07] <Stevef> darobin: am pleased with placeholder discussion :-)
  31. # [11:08] <darobin> Stevef: yes, it's a good one — well done!
  32. # [11:09] <Stevef> daribin: unsure whether I am correct in stating we appear to have rough consensus?
  33. # [11:09] <Stevef> darobin: that is
  34. # [11:09] <darobin> Stevef: based on the short discussion I think so
  35. # [11:10] <Stevef> dorbin: think its enough to add some proposed text to the spec for further review
  36. # [11:10] <Stevef> darobin: don't know what up with my typing of your nick this morning
  37. # [11:10] <darobin> ROFL
  38. # [11:11] <darobin> yeah, I'd go ahead and make a concrete proposal
  39. # [11:13] <Stevef> cool will do
  40. # [11:22] <stommepoes> Was this change to MUST NOT based on usability or accessibiliy?
  41. # [11:24] <darobin> what's the difference? :)
  42. # [11:25] <stommepoes> The spec hasn't traditionally said things like MUST NOT based on crappy usability, which devs add to almost every page they touch. Accessibility at least hits some actual laws in some countries.
  43. # [11:26] <stommepoes> Plus, some of the arguments I read about "well browsers do it" and then "but that's okay because browsers send add'l info to accessibility layers" and that was all nothing since accessibility layer isn't seen by, for example, me. Or anyone without a screen reader or Dragon or other specific AT.
  44. # [11:26] <stommepoes> As if adding a hidden something-something for only the blind makes something done by browser chrome a good idea.
  45. # [11:27] <darobin> hence my implied statement that there's no difference
  46. # [11:28] <stommepoes> Then this sets a precedent? That the spec should, in several places, say MUST NOT because thing-is-really-bad-usability?
  47. # [11:28] <stommepoes> That would be rather awesome, but I don't expect it to happen :)
  48. # [11:28] <stommepoes> Though I guess WCAG takes care of most of the MUSTNOTs.
  49. # [11:29] <darobin> we're going for SHOULD NOT rather than MUST NOT
  50. # [11:29] <darobin> but explaining why
  51. # [11:29] <stommepoes> I thought the spec already said SHOULD NOT for placeholders
  52. # [11:29] <stommepoes> ?
  53. # [11:29] <stommepoes> Placeholder SHOULD NOT be used in place of labels.
  54. # [11:29] <darobin> yeah but it doesn't tell people wy
  55. # [11:29] <darobin> why
  56. # [11:29] <stommepoes> Ah
  57. # [11:29] <darobin> which is the most useless form of should not you can get
  58. # [11:29] <stommepoes> I thought the proposal was to make it to MUST NOT.
  59. # [11:29] <darobin> might as well not be there
  60. # [11:30] <stommepoes> agreed.
  61. # [11:30] <Stevef> Also maciej makes the point that MUST NOT is better used for testable statements (i think he means machine checkable)
  62. # [11:30] <stommepoes> hm, now I want to go check what it says about fieldsets w/o legends...
  63. # [11:30] <Stevef> which i see the sense of
  64. # [11:30] <stommepoes> I could see a script checking labels and placeholders.
  65. # [11:31] <stommepoes> Since a script can check that input with id blah has a matching label with for blah and additionally if said input has none-empty placeholder attribute...
  66. # [11:31] <stommepoes> In fact I think I did that once with Javascript.
  67. # [11:31] <Stevef> there are cases where an accessible name can be provided via various mechanisms , but a visible pormpt is provided that is not asscoiated using a label
  68. # [11:31] <stommepoes> long ago, to give labels to IE since Graphic Design Wizard would not allow me to make visible labels :/
  69. # [11:33] <Stevef> <input type="search" aria-label="search keyword"><button>search</button> is an example
  70. # [11:34] <stommepoes> If we're going to conflate usability and accesisbility, the above doesn't work.
  71. # [11:34] <stommepoes> I mean, *i* don't get the benefit of aria-label, unless I load up the screen readers.
  72. # [11:34] <stommepoes> Though, search is the one of two special cases.
  73. # [11:35] <stommepoes> plcaeholder abuse is the worst in the non-two-special-cases forms. Especially long ones.
  74. # [11:35] <stommepoes> And aria-label could well be more than good enough for the user-password logins and search forms. I don't see it as good-enough for any other (longer) forms though.
  75. # [11:38] <Stevef> as I said it was an example, I wasn't implying that it extneds beyond particular cases
  76. # [11:39] <stommepoes> An example of problems doing the testing maciej mentioned you mean?
  77. # [11:39] <stommepoes> That the examples could be valid but more complicated than simply input-hasa-placeholder and not label setup
  78. # [11:39] <Stevef> yes
  79. # [11:40] <stommepoes> Would complicate a script, yes. But, would be similar to validation? These check things, but have parameters you can set, and also, devs are free to ignore :P
  80. # [11:46] <Stevef> need to take into account what conformance checkers are likely to implement
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  89. # [14:13] <Stevef> stommepoes:ping
  90. # [15:00] <Stevef> darobin: we got the call in 5 mins btw
  91. # [15:00] <darobin> Stevef: yup!
  92. # [15:00] <darobin> in #html-a11y, right
  93. # [15:00] <darobin> ?
  94. # [15:01] <Stevef> no in #html-a11y-plan
  95. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> Stevef: I'm still not caught up on that thread as far as how it relates to validation
  96. # [15:03] <Stevef> its OK we have moved off changing conformance requirement
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  102. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> Stevef: ok
  103. # [16:49] <MikeSmith> I did finally read the thread
  104. # [16:50] <Stevef> MikeSmith: righto
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The end :)