/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2013-03-07 / end

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  4. # [00:09] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 1 new commit to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/ed103cd26bb7cd47ee9e68186d8bb35b5a8dd517
  5. # [00:09] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg ed103cd ianh: [giow] (3) Try to more closely match reality....
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  64. # [11:04] <SteveF> darobin:hober: would like to hear from you and other editors on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Mar/0026.html
  65. # [11:05] <SteveF> darobin:hober: no rush but would like to make progress on it over the next month
  66. # [11:08] <mjs> SteveF: what is the best way to express subheadings to assistive technologies via accessibility APIs?
  67. # [11:08] <mjs> I think that is one factor that goes into what markup is best
  68. # [11:08] <mjs> should it look like:
  69. # [11:08] <mjs> - just one big heading?
  70. # [11:08] <mjs> - a heading followed by a clearly identified subheading?
  71. # [11:08] <mjs> - two headings in a row?
  72. # [11:08] <mjs> - a heading with a subheading as a child?
  73. # [11:09] <SteveF> mjs: there is currently no defined method to indicate a subheading
  74. # [11:09] <mjs> so given that, it seems like the first and third are the only available options, at least until/unless AX APIs update
  75. # [11:11] <mjs> in visual terms, it would be good to have markup that, with the default UA stylesheet, puts the subhead on a separate line and makes it smaller than the heading
  76. # [11:11] <SteveF> mjs: there is an option of <hgroup><h1>heading</h1><p>subheading</p></hgroup> where non heading content is given a role=heading without heading level set
  77. # [11:12] <mjs> oh, I forgot that the subhead could be excluded from the heading entirely
  78. # [11:12] <mjs> I am not sure what the hgroup thing you said would do
  79. # [11:13] <SteveF> mjs: for current implementations it would = <h1>heading</h1><p>subheading</p>
  80. # [11:13] <mjs> so it would exclude the subhead from the heading
  81. # [11:14] <mjs> (and not identify it as a separate heading or related subheading). Is that the right thing to do? If so, you don't even need hgroup even.
  82. # [11:15] <SteveF> if defined as any non heading content in a hgroup = subheading and subheading identified by role=heading without level= set then hgroup may be useful
  83. # [11:15] <mjs> it seems like <h1>heading</h1><p>subhead</p> vs <h1>heading<div>subhead</div></h1> are the two basic patterns that can avoid two headings
  84. # [11:15] <mjs> the first makes the subhead unrelated to the heading in current AT, the second makes it part of the heading
  85. # [11:15] <mjs> which is better?
  86. # [11:16] <mjs> that seems more important to me than whether you put a wrapper element around it
  87. # [11:16] <mjs> that's assuming showing up as two headings in current browsers/AT is off the table
  88. # [11:16] <SteveF> its not off the table nothing is :-)
  89. # [11:16] <mjs> I assumed that was the reason original-flavor hgroup was disfavored
  90. # [11:16] <mjs> but anyway
  91. # [11:17] <mjs> I think the interesting properties of the proposals (other than just bikeshedding opinions about the syntax) are:
  92. # [11:17] <mjs> - what would this markup pattern do in current AT?
  93. # [11:17] <SteveF> the reason why origianl hgroup is dsiflavoured is that it does not indicate subheadings to acc layer
  94. # [11:17] <mjs> - what would it do in future AT/browser/AX API combos once updated to fully understand the construct?
  95. # [11:17] <mjs> - what would the default visual styling be?
  96. # [11:18] <mjs> I think no one would use the <span> thing for instance because you have to do a bunch of CSS styling to get it to look right
  97. # [11:18] <mjs> it's way easier to just do <h1>heading</h1><h2>subheading</h2>
  98. # [11:18] <mjs> which results in two unrelated headings presented to AT
  99. # [11:18] <mjs> a solution to this problem has to be similarly convenient to <h1> followed by <h2> or no one will use it
  100. # [11:19] <mjs> if presenting two unrelated headings via AT is ok, then no solution is necessary, at least from an accessibility point of view
  101. # [11:20] <mjs> maybe I should comment on the email thread
  102. # [11:20] <SteveF> what I want to see is subheadings identifies as subheadings if that is what their implied semantics are
  103. # [11:20] <SteveF> how to achieve that is the question
  104. # [11:20] <mjs> but you said no AX API supports that today
  105. # [11:21] <SteveF> no they don't but as i just suggested there is a relatively simple path to achieving that using existing roles and properties
  106. # [11:22] <SteveF> whether <hgroup> is useful to achieve this is a question
  107. # [11:22] <SteveF> but do please respond on list
  108. # [11:24] <SteveF> I can think of ways to improve hgroup semantics, but trying to get a sense of whether there is enough support of its continued inclusion or whether identifying subheadings in a different way would be better in long term
  109. # [11:24] <SteveF> i.e. is hgroup a useful construct/
  110. # [11:25] <SteveF> or can subheadings be better identified using an attribute for example?
  111. # [11:26] <SteveF> or an element
  112. # [11:26] <SteveF> when the data is looked at the markup patterns do not strongly support <hx><hx> patterns
  113. # [11:27] <SteveF> or constraints on subheading placement
  114. # [11:31] <SteveF> mjs: have a look at the examples collected by lachlan http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Hgroup_element keep in mind that these examples were collected to support <hgroup> and the <hx><hx> pattern
  115. # [11:32] <mjs> will look at that before I reply
  116. # [11:43] <SteveF> mjs: note have just editied page a bit and also note looking at linked pages is useful as it gives a better idea of how the subheadings are visually presented
  117. # [11:48] <SteveF> mjs: some of the patterns appear to support <header><hx><hx>
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  120. # [13:25] <SteveF> mjs: FYI http://html5accessibility.com/HTML5data/hgroup.html examples of hgroup use i collected from last year
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  144. # [17:59] <rubys> trackbot, start meeting
  145. # [17:59] * @trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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  147. # [17:59] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-html-wg-irc
  148. # [17:59] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  149. # [17:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  150. # [17:59] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  151. # [17:59] <@trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
  152. # [17:59] <@trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  153. # [17:59] <@trackbot> Date: 07 March 2013
  154. # [17:59] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start now
  155. # [18:00] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  156. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Sam
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  159. # [18:01] <Zakim> +joesteele
  160. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  161. # [18:02] <Eliot> zakim, microsoft has jaymunro and me
  162. # [18:02] <Zakim> +jaymunro, Eliot; got it
  163. # [18:02] <Zakim> +cabanier
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  165. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  166. # [18:02] <hober> Zakim, Apple is me
  167. # [18:02] <Zakim> +hober; got it
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  169. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P2
  170. # [18:03] <janina> zakim, ??P2 is Janina
  171. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Janina; got it
  172. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Tantek
  173. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.415.595.aaaa
  174. # [18:04] <tantek> Zakim, mute Tantek
  175. # [18:04] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
  176. # [18:04] <mjs> hi Zakim, +1.415.595.aaaa is me
  177. # [18:04] <mjs> Zakim, +1.415.595.aaaa is me
  178. # [18:04] <Zakim> +mjs; got it
  179. # [18:05] <rubys> scribenick: rubys
  180. # [18:05] <rubys> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2013JanMar/0020.html
  181. # [18:05] <rubys> mjs: short agenda today
  182. # [18:05] <rubys> topic: 1. Items Closed Last Week
  183. # [18:05] <rubys> CfC: to publish "HTML5 Image Description Extension" specification as a First Public Working Draft, closed February 27
  184. # [18:06] <rubys> mjs: this extension defines longdesc
  185. # [18:06] <rubys> topic: 2. Decisions this week
  186. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  187. # [18:06] <rubys> mjs: the "HTML5 Image Description Extension" call for consensus passes, there was a lot of support and no objections
  188. # [18:06] <rubys> topic: 3. Other Business
  189. # [18:07] <rubys> mjs: April face-to-face
  190. # [18:07] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Mar/0006.html
  191. # [18:07] <rubys> mjs: if you are planning on attending, please register
  192. # [18:07] <rubys> mjs: any other topics?
  193. # [18:08] <rubys> topic: 4. Scribe for next meeting
  194. # [18:08] <rubys> mjs: volunteers?
  195. # [18:08] <rubys> rik volunteers
  196. # [18:08] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  197. # [18:08] <rubys> mjs: thanks!
  198. # [18:08] <rubys> topic: 5. Adjournment
  199. # [18:08] <Zakim> -Janina
  200. # [18:08] <Zakim> -joesteele
  201. # [18:08] <Zakim> -hober
  202. # [18:08] <Zakim> -cabanier
  203. # [18:08] <Zakim> -mjs
  204. # [18:08] * Parts: janina (~janina@public.cloak) (janina)
  205. # [18:08] <Zakim> -Sam
  206. # [18:08] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  207. # [18:08] <Zakim> -Tantek
  208. # [18:08] <rubys> rrsagent, publish minutes
  209. # [18:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-html-wg-minutes.html rubys
  210. # [18:08] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  211. # [18:08] <Zakim> Attendees were Sam, joesteele, jaymunro, Eliot, cabanier, hober, Janina, Tantek, mjs, Cynthia_Shelly
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  218. # [18:18] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  219. # [18:18] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  220. # [18:18] <Zakim> Attendees were
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  247. # [23:08] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 1 new commit to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/5d43fe653ee1496259e27ab5e76f6ec647a47d26
  248. # [23:08] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg 5d43fe6 ianh: [giow] (3) document.open() replaces when the current doc is the initial about:blank...
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  255. # Session Close: Fri Mar 08 00:00:00 2013

The end :)