/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2013-04-23 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Apr 23 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:32] <gitbot> [html] silviapfeiffer pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/dab1a6912807699aa12e24f351702e1bb36861ea
# [00:32] <gitbot> html/master dab1a69 ianh: [giow] (3) Match reality better. (Turns out parts of the spec already assumed this was defined this way anyway.)...
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# [02:11] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 2 new commits to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/5069600eb2e9...a9ffe895f193
# [02:11] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg 5eb5e2b ianh: [e] (0) Clarify what we mean by 'poster frame' of an animation....
# [02:11] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg a9ffe89 ianh: [e] (0) Be clearer about how preparsing handles running out of bytes....
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# [04:36] <darobin> MikeSmith: you're around man?
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# [06:09] <MikeSmith> darobin: here now
# [06:10] <MikeSmith> at Denny's near my hotel
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# [18:22] <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
# [18:22] * @trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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# [18:22] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
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# [18:23] <@trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
# [18:23] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
# [18:23] <@trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [18:23] <@trackbot> Date: 23 April 2013
# [18:23] <timeless> s/HTML Weekly Teleconference/HTML Interim Face to Face/
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# [18:23] <timeless> scribe: Josh_Soref
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# [18:24] <timeless> scribenick: timeless
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# [18:24] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [18:24] <timeless> Topic: Introductions
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# [18:24] <timeless> [ Everyone introduced themselves ]
# [18:25] <timeless> Topic: Agenda bashing
# [18:25] <adrianba> Present+ adrianba
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# [18:25] <chaals> Present+ chaals
# [18:25] <timeless> paulc: we'll start with an Unconference
# [18:25] * Travis asks someone to post the link to the agenda...
# [18:25] <timeless> ... ruby has this page open with the schedule
# [18:25] * timeless http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda
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# [18:26] <timeless> ... there are requests from the Media TF
# [18:26] <timeless> ... for a session on EME
# [18:26] <timeless> ... - current bugs
# [18:26] <timeless> ... - Accessibility TF wants to talk w/ them about alternate media in the clear
# [18:26] <timeless> ... I'm proposing to do these after lunch
# [18:26] <timeless> ... and i'm proposing to do MSE first
# [18:27] <timeless> ... it should take 30 minutes?
# [18:27] * chaals notes that 1.45pm is generally considered morning in Spain...
# [18:27] <timeless> .. eric(?)
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# [18:27] <timeless> ... i'm assuming lunch is 12p-1
# [18:27] <timeless> ... we'll do MSE 1p-2
# [18:27] <timeless> ... then EME after that for 90 mins
# [18:27] <timeless> ... there are a fair number of open topics there
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# [18:27] <timeless> ... a larger section on Candidate REC status
# [18:27] <timeless> ... - update on testsuite, coverage, status
# [18:27] <timeless> ... krisk wanted to talk about github and branching
# [18:28] <timeless> ... i suggested working on figuring out which parts of the document are passing exit criteria
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# [18:28] <timeless> ... and talking about Features AT RISK
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# [18:28] <timeless> ... MicroData met yesterday
# [18:28] <timeless> ... i suggested to darobin that this is a fairly large topic
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# [18:28] <timeless> ... that we start it this morning
# [18:28] <Jungkee> Present+ Jungkee_Song
# [18:29] <timeless> ... we'll finish this section w/in half an hour
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# [18:29] <timeless> ... and then the rest of the morning to start on [hand-pointed] topic
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# [18:29] <timeless> ... the WG has 2 docs out to CR and our job is to get them past
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# [18:29] <timeless> ... ruby: can you put CR status for 9:30a-10:15
# [18:29] <timeless> ... and part 2, 10:30a-12noon
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# [18:29] <timeless> ... that covers the big things
# [18:30] <timeless> ... for this morning and early this afternoon
# [18:30] <timeless> ... Moving the polyglot spec forward
# [18:30] <timeless> ... eliot?
# [18:30] <timeless> eliot: i want to hear where people's feelings are
# [18:30] <timeless> ... it could be 10mins or 45mins
# [18:30] <CyrilRa> Anyone on phone bridge? Been on bridge from Agenda for a while (and on IRC Channel), on my own…
# [18:30] <timeless> paulc: ruby, open a slot tomorrow morning at 9am
# [18:30] * timeless -- raises bridge request
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# [18:31] * timeless someone chases the host to investigate
# [18:31] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
# [18:31] <timeless> paulc: darobin heartbeat, can i lump that w/ misc for tomorrow morning
# [18:31] <timeless> darobin: sure
# [18:32] <timeless> paulc: we want to talk about various documents
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# [18:32] <timeless> ... and we want at least oral concurrence
# [18:32] * timeless () ?
# [18:32] <krisk> krisk: F2F wiki http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda
# [18:32] * timeless darobin speaker?
# [18:32] * darobin wasn't looking, sorry
# [18:32] <eliot> hober
# [18:32] <timeless> hober: did we schedule EME?
# [18:32] <CyrilRa> Update agenda to reflect IRC Channel
# [18:32] <timeless> paulc: yes
# [18:32] * Joins: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak)
# [18:33] * timeless [projector goes offline]
# [18:33] * Joins: johnsim (~johnsim@public.cloak)
# [18:33] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [18:33] <timeless> paulc: assigning transcript to audio/video
# [18:34] <timeless> ... Accessibility TF wanted this
# [18:34] <timeless> ... foliet, do you have any idea how long it will take?
# [18:34] <timeless> foliet: 30mins? maybe longer
# [18:34] <timeless> paulc: ruby, put in post coffee tomorrow morning
# [18:34] <timeless> ... Web Perf issues re:HTML5
# [18:35] <timeless> ... put after coffee in misc 2
# [18:35] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
# [18:35] <timeless> ... session on wiki "Extension Spec Status"
# [18:35] <timeless> ... Moving Image Description aka Longdesc
# [18:35] <timeless> ... - it has a FPWD, and the TF intends to take it to LC
# [18:35] <timeless> ... chaals ?
# [18:35] <timeless> chaals: at least 3 minutes
# [18:35] <timeless> paulc: put it in misc 2
# [18:36] <timeless> janina: some of us won't be here then
# [18:36] <timeless> paulc: ok, create a slot today @ 11:45a
# [18:36] <timeless> s/ok/ok, ruby,/
# [18:36] <timeless> ... i think that covers everything on the list
# [18:36] <timeless> ... anyone have anything else?
# [18:36] <timeless> ... darobin, looks like we have time for another testing slot tomorrow
# [18:36] <timeless> darobin: if we need it
# [18:36] <timeless> paulc: this group needs to figure out how to use the time
# [18:37] <timeless> ... we need to figure out which parts need testing, and which don't
# [18:37] <timeless> ... if we need to drive through the spec section by section, that's what we'll do
# [18:37] <timeless> ... call that "candidate testing part 2" tomorrow afternoon
# [18:37] <timeless> ... other topics?
# [18:37] <timeless> ... "New features for html 5.1?"
# [18:37] <timeless> plh: can we have a slot for HTML WG Charter?
# [18:38] * timeless plh called daniel asking for audio help
# [18:38] * timeless changes topic to 'http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda'
# [18:38] <timeless> paulc: how much time?
# [18:38] <timeless> plh: 30mins
# [18:38] * timeless [plh: you should be able to project again]
# [18:38] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
# [18:39] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:39] * timeless ... or not :)
# [18:39] * Quits: abraud (~anraud@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:40] <timeless> paulc: any other topics?
# [18:40] * timeless [silence]
# [18:40] * timeless paulc: projector isn't working from paulc's / ruby's computers
# [18:41] * timeless plh: i asked for help w/ projector and phone bridge
# [18:41] * timeless paulc: we'll need projector for testing and cr
# [18:41] * timeless ... not sure what to do here
# [18:41] * Joins: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak)
# [18:41] * timeless darobin change agenda
# [18:41] * timeless chaals: do extensions
# [18:42] * Quits: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [18:42] <timeless> Topic: CR and Testing
# [18:43] <timeless> s/Topic: CR and Testing//
# [18:43] <timeless> plh: paulc, wanted Charter tomorrow
# [18:43] <timeless> paulc: ok
# [18:43] <timeless> Topic: CR and Testing
# [18:43] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
# [18:44] <timeless> paulc: * HTML Test Suite coverage, gaps and status
# [18:44] <timeless> ... * Usage of Github and branching (Kris)
# [18:44] <timeless> ... * Review of which parts of HTML5 pass the "passive exit criteria"
# [18:44] <timeless> ... * Status of HTML 5.1 and Canvas open bugs
# [18:44] <timeless> ... * Status of Features at Risk (more, less?)
# [18:44] <timeless> ... * Getting Microdata to CR (Editorial team)
# [18:44] <timeless> ... i think we can do Microdata first
# [18:44] <timeless> ... does an editor want to speak?
# [18:44] <timeless> ... in December when we took HTML5 and Canvas to CR
# [18:44] <timeless> ... we had an Objection in taking Microdata to CR
# [18:44] <timeless> ... which is why it didn't go out at the same time
# [18:44] <timeless> ... we talked about this as chairs and editors
# [18:44] <timeless> ... i think we need a further update
# [18:45] <timeless> MikeSmith: we're even further blocked than before
# [18:45] * Joins: Bin_Hu (~Bin_Hu@public.cloak)
# [18:45] <timeless> ... we'll have fewer implementations potentially than when we spoke a few months ago
# [18:45] <timeless> ... the Google Blink team decided to yank the implementation of the Microdata DOM API
# [18:45] * Joins: abraud (~abraud@public.cloak)
# [18:45] <timeless> ... it's likely to disappear from WebKit also
# [18:45] <timeless> ... the Microdata specification defines some attributes that are extensions to the HTML language
# [18:45] <timeless> ... we don't have implementation conformance requirements
# [18:46] <timeless> ... we only have conformance requirements for validators
# [18:46] <timeless> ... the one thing we have is this DOM API
# [18:46] <timeless> ... we have 2
# [18:46] <timeless> ... we had one in Opera
# [18:46] <timeless> ... my understanding is Opera is End-Of-Lifing their web engine (Presto)
# [18:46] <chaals> q+
# [18:46] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <timeless> ... and they'll be shipping WebKit/Chromium
# [18:46] <timeless> ... I don't think we can count the Opera engine
# [18:46] <timeless> ... we have one implementation in Mozilla (Gecko)
# [18:46] <timeless> ... unfortunately
# [18:46] <timeless> ... in discussing w/ the Chrome team
# [18:47] <timeless> ... they're not just yanking the implementation
# [18:47] <timeless> ... they're not interested in implementing the specification as spec'd
# [18:47] <timeless> ... we could work to go to CR
# [18:47] <timeless> ... but, six months from now, we're unlikely to be able to exit
# [18:47] <timeless> ... also, editorally
# [18:47] <timeless> ... there's no industry momentum behind Microdata
# [18:47] <timeless> ... it was nice at the time
# [18:48] <timeless> ... it lit a fire under the RDFa to force them to make their API fit to market
# [18:48] <timeless> ... it pushed the RDFa partisans to align w/ what we asked them to do
# [18:48] <timeless> ... now that it's done
# [18:48] <timeless> ... I don't think the entire world needs to work on two different
# [18:48] <timeless> ... Practically speaking, Schema.org started w/ Microdata
# [18:48] <timeless> ... but now RDFa has a lite version, which is quite usable
# [18:49] <darobin> [despite its terrible name]
# [18:49] <timeless> ... I don't think orgs like Schema.org which are using embedded metadata
# [18:49] <timeless> ... want to do things twice
# [18:49] <timeless> ... I don't think the investment is necessarily needed to continue
# [18:49] <timeless> ... I, myself, don't think it makes sense to continue to pursue this
# [18:49] <timeless> q?
# [18:49] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:49] <timeless> ack chaals
# [18:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:49] <timeless> chaals: I put myself on the queue to call Bollocks
# [18:50] <timeless> ... 1. Microdata is in large part not directed at browsers
# [18:50] <timeless> ... it's the least interesting application in many cases
# [18:50] <timeless> ... browser implementations aren't always the implementations you're looking for
# [18:50] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@public.cloak)
# [18:50] <timeless> ... in some things we do in HTML
# [18:50] <timeless> ... we couldn't care less if it's used in the browser
# [18:50] <timeless> ... things like Authoring systems
# [18:50] * Joins: markw_ (~markw@public.cloak)
# [18:50] <timeless> ... for Microdata, it's for Data management systems
# [18:50] <timeless> ... you might lose Browser implementations
# [18:51] <timeless> ... Yandex has a Microdata implementation for schema.org
# [18:51] <timeless> ... and we can see interoperable
# [18:51] <CyrilRa> Any update on phone bridge?
# [18:51] <timeless> ... we don't really care if it's implemented in a browser
# [18:51] <rubys> q+
# [18:51] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [18:51] * timeless they came in
# [18:51] <MikeSmith> q+ to thank Chaals for volunteering to serve as the W3C editor for the Microdata CR spec
# [18:51] * Zakim sees rubys, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [18:51] <timeless> ... we want to see if it's really implementable
# [18:51] <timeless> ... the approach for "what is a valid implementation requirement"
# [18:51] <timeless> ... should be opened up a bit
# [18:51] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [18:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
# [18:52] <timeless> ... there are boatloads of Microdata in Russia
# [18:52] <timeless> ... we use Microdata in Yandex, which we implemented early
# [18:52] <timeless> ... so there's a lot of it
# [18:52] <timeless> ... we lead the Russian market
# [18:52] <timeless> ... as Google leads the US market
# [18:52] <timeless> ... i'm not necessarily disagreeing w/ MikeSmith 's conclusion
# [18:52] <timeless> ... but i'm disagreeing your steps
# [18:53] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [18:53] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to thank Chaals for volunteering to serve as the W3C editor for the Microdata CR spec
# [18:53] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [18:53] <timeless> MikeSmith: if you are invested in it
# [18:53] <timeless> ... then you're welcome to edit
# [18:53] <timeless> ack rubys
# [18:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:53] <timeless> rubys: i want people to focus on actual recommendations
# [18:53] <timeless> ... MikeSmith was talking about Terminating as a NOTE
# [18:53] <timeless> ... and that was what i heard
# [18:53] * Joins: SteveF (~SteveF@public.cloak)
# [18:53] <timeless> ... but from chaals, you said we don't care about the html bit?
# [18:53] <timeless> ... but we want the rest?
# [18:54] <timeless> chaals: i was trying to avoid committing to find an editor
# [18:54] <timeless> rubys: if we don't have an editor, we should terminate
# [18:54] <timeless> chaals: we should do things for reasons that make sense
# [18:54] <timeless> ... if we don't have an editor, no one cares about it, we walk away
# [18:54] <timeless> paulc: when chairs did a call for editors last summer
# [18:54] <timeless> ... we had a lot of answers, but they had limited experience
# [18:54] <timeless> ... and we turned them down
# [18:55] <timeless> ... don't assume the only possible editors are in the room
# [18:55] <timeless> ... people might not have a primary interest in Microdata
# [18:55] <timeless> ... but they might volunteer to get editing experience
# [18:55] * Quits: MichaelC_SJO (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [18:55] <timeless> ... the right way forward is for chairs to do a call for volunteers
# [18:55] <timeless> MikeSmith: yes
# [18:55] <timeless> ... if a WG, esp a high profile WG like this
# [18:55] <timeless> ... puts out a call for editors
# [18:55] <timeless> ... we'll have a lot of people who will step up and say "yes"
# [18:55] <timeless> ... "oh, btw, what is Microdata?"
# [18:56] <timeless> ... we don't want people who don't know what it is to step up
# [18:56] <timeless> ... they won't stick around
# [18:56] <darobin> q?
# [18:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:56] <timeless> ... abundance of potential editors isn't a solution
# [18:56] <timeless> rubys: you suggested the APIs are AT RISK
# [18:56] <timeless> ... we could take some decision on the APIs
# [18:56] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
# [18:56] <timeless> ... you were suggesting is that the parts that chaals spoke to
# [18:56] <timeless> ... search engines, processing systems
# [18:56] <timeless> ... are the attributes
# [18:57] <timeless> ... and we could propose to move them somewhere else?
# [18:57] <timeless> rubys: when we went to CR
# [18:57] <timeless> ... we had a missing section
# [18:57] <timeless> ... we spoke about moving it to the HTML base spec
# [18:57] * Quits: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [18:57] <timeless> paulc: i don't think people in the room understand what happened at the Director's TR Call for Microdata
# [18:57] <timeless> ... I want to refresh people's minds
# [18:57] <timeless> MikeSmith: i'm trying to remember that call
# [18:58] <timeless> ... if someone else on the call?
# [18:58] <timeless> darobin: we had a Director's Call to move Microdata to CR
# [18:58] <timeless> ... during the call, we noticed a section had gone AWOL
# [18:58] <timeless> ... there was a merge error from the WHAT WG spec
# [18:58] <timeless> ... the call failed, because we couldn't ship a spec missing an entire section
# [18:58] <timeless> ... after which the Blink announcement happened
# [18:58] <timeless> rubys: three things
# [18:59] <timeless> ... 1. API
# [18:59] <timeless> ... - no one in room has interest
# [18:59] <timeless> ... 2. Definition of Microdata
# [18:59] <timeless> ... - Yandex is interested, but not necessarily to find an editor
# [18:59] <timeless> chaals: if you want the spec in Russian...
# [18:59] <timeless> rubys: 3. Microdata in HTML
# [18:59] <timeless> ... which is currently in the HTML spec
# [18:59] <timeless> ... it should probably be tombstoned
# [18:59] <timeless> ... if decision is to make it a FINAL NOTE
# [18:59] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that another possibility is that we just put Microdata back into the spec where it started from
# [18:59] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [18:59] <timeless> ... it should probably be moved back
# [19:00] <timeless> paulc: why wouldn't we fix the missing section
# [19:00] <timeless> ... and go to CR w/ the API marked at risk
# [19:00] <timeless> rubys: if there's interest and an editor
# [19:00] <timeless> ... that makes sense
# [19:00] <timeless> paulc: trying to make sense w/o worrying on editor
# [19:00] <timeless> darobin: i don't think we should focus on finding an editor
# [19:00] * MichaelC is now known as MichaelC_SJC
# [19:00] <timeless> ... i don't think it's a lot of editorial work
# [19:01] <chaals> q-
# [19:01] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [19:01] <timeless> ... tombstoning, dropping API, etc, all are short
# [19:01] * Joins: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak)
# [19:01] <timeless> ... if there's strong interest from Yandex
# [19:01] <timeless> ... we can probably take to CR w/o the API
# [19:01] <timeless> ... if you want us to take it
# [19:01] <timeless> ... show us another company w/ interest
# [19:02] <timeless> MikeSmith: we made a decision a long time ago to split the Microdata stuff out of the HTML spec
# [19:02] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
# [19:02] <timeless> ... the upstream spec is continugous
# [19:02] <timeless> ... we could put it back there/leave it there
# [19:02] <timeless> ... part of why we pulled it out was political
# [19:02] * plh on the phone bridge, the reservation didn't go through in EBay
# [19:03] <timeless> ... to show we didn't want to give it an unfair advantage over RDFa
# [19:03] <timeless> ... we could put it into HTML.next
# [19:03] * plh we might get this afternoon .... or tomorrow :(
# [19:03] <timeless> paulc: that's another
# [19:03] <timeless> ... alternative
# [19:03] <timeless> ... 1. go to CR w/ part of spec AT RISK
# [19:03] <timeless> ... 2. archive w/ WG NOTE
# [19:04] <rubys> q+
# [19:04] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, rubys on the speaker queue
# [19:04] <timeless> ... 3. fold the attributes in HTML for 5.1 - as Yandex, and schema.org use them
# [19:04] <timeless> MikeSmith: 3 is what i'd suggest
# [19:04] <timeless> ... let's reduce the amount of extra work for myself
# [19:04] <timeless> darobin: not just you
# [19:05] <timeless> paulc: darobin, how much work is it to integrate back into HTML5.1?
# [19:05] <timeless> darobin: even less than the ohters
# [19:05] <timeless> s/ohters/others/
# [19:05] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [19:05] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that another possibility is that we just put Microdata back into the spec where it started from
# [19:05] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [19:05] <timeless> ack rubys
# [19:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:05] <timeless> rubys: MikeSmith, what do you propose to do w/ the API?
# [19:05] <timeless> MikeSmith: leave it there for now
# [19:05] <timeless> paulc: anyone in the room want to express an opinion on the three options?
# [19:06] <timeless> ... 1. go to CR w/ part of spec AT RISK
# [19:06] <darobin> [we could even come up with a better API that also covers RDFa]
# [19:06] <timeless> ... 2. archive w/ WG NOTE
# [19:06] <timeless> ... 3. fold the attributes in HTML for 5.1
# [19:06] * Quits: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:06] <timeless> chaals: we'd like it to go to CR, so it isn't spinning around
# [19:06] <timeless> hober: i agree w/ MikeSmith, roll it into 5.1
# [19:06] <timeless> paulc: other opinions?
# [19:07] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: confused
# [19:07] <timeless> ... MikeSmith spoke about this
# [19:07] <timeless> ... can we get multiple implementations
# [19:07] <timeless> ... is everyone turning away from this?
# [19:07] <timeless> ... option 3, doesn't that cause more risk?
# [19:07] <timeless> ... to the 5.1 spec
# [19:07] <timeless> ... not getting multiple implementations?
# [19:07] <timeless> ... not getting things people want?
# [19:08] <timeless> ... and it seems to contradict the extensions spec model
# [19:08] <timeless> darobin: i understand your confusion
# [19:08] <timeless> ... putting it in 5.1
# [19:08] <timeless> ... a. it's less work for us
# [19:08] <timeless> ... b. it gives us more time, 5.1 target is 2016
# [19:08] <timeless> ... it doesn't push us to make a decision in the next six months
# [19:08] <timeless> ... give people a chance to use it, or give us a chance to notice it's completely dead
# [19:08] <timeless> ... re: relationship to extension specs
# [19:09] <timeless> ... it interacts w/ lots of other sections
# [19:09] <timeless> ... it interacts w/ syntax, drag and drop, etc.
# [19:09] <timeless> ... it's difficult to extract
# [19:09] <timeless> s/re:/c. re:/
# [19:09] <timeless> paulc: other questions/comments?
# [19:09] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
# [19:10] <timeless> paulc: chairs will take an action item for a proposal
# [19:10] <timeless> ... need to figure out if we want to do a CfC or something else, I expect to hear an objection if we do a CfC
# [19:10] <timeless> chaals: i doubt Yandex will raise an Objection
# [19:10] <timeless> ... unless we offer to pony up resources
# [19:10] <timeless> ... this isn't a hill we'll die on
# [19:10] <timeless> ... strong objection path is unlikely
# [19:10] <timeless> paulc: what if we move the attributes to 5.0?
# [19:11] <timeless> ... the reason this is in microdata5.0
# [19:11] <timeless> ... was because the WG made a decision to split out the content
# [19:11] <timeless> ... it's the attributes you're most interested in, right/
# [19:11] <rubys> action: sam to bring microdata proposals to the working group 1) terminate as a note, 2) take attributes to CR, 3) move to 5.1
# [19:11] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:11] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [19:11] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-225 - Bring microdata proposals to the working group 1) terminate as a note, 2) take attributes to CR, 3) move to 5.1 [on Sam Ruby - due 2013-04-30].
# [19:11] <timeless> s|/|?|
# [19:11] <timeless> chaals: yes
# [19:11] <timeless> paulc: why can't we just fold this back into 5.0?
# [19:12] <timeless> chaals: same political reasons as why we split it out
# [19:12] <timeless> MikeSmith: if we put the attributes back into the spec, it won't affect progress of the spec
# [19:12] <timeless> ... we don't have conformance requirements
# [19:12] <timeless> paulc: right, that's why i asked
# [19:12] <timeless> ... but chaals, i think you're right, we'd get an Objection
# [19:12] <timeless> [ Time check ]
# [19:13] * timeless paulc 10 minute coffee break
# [19:13] * timeless and then darobin starts on HTML test suite?
# [19:13] * timeless darobin yes
# [19:13] <timeless> topic: HTML Test Suite coverage, gaps and status
# [19:13] <timeless> i/think we can do Microdata first/Topic: Getting Microdata to CR (Editorial team)/
# [19:13] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [19:13] <ArtB> zakim, code?
# [19:13] <Zakim> sorry, ArtB, I don't know what conference this is
# [19:14] * timeless ArtB we don't have a bridge
# [19:14] * timeless plh: we're getting the hardware
# [19:15] * ArtB yes I can see that; not sure why Zakim is running ...
# [19:15] * timeless but it'll probably be set up by the afternoon
# [19:15] * timeless well, zakim is running the queue :)
# [19:15] * timeless runs to break
# [19:15] * ArtB thanks timeless
# [19:15] * Quits: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:17] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
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# [19:19] * Quits: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:29] * timeless paulc: the guy gave us some mics
# [19:29] <timeless> darobin: i suppose most of you are familiar w/ W3 process
# [19:29] <timeless> ... one of the things you need to go from CR to PR
# [19:29] <timeless> ... is a Test Suite
# [19:29] <timeless> ... to prove that the nice piece of prose is supported by implementations
# [19:29] <timeless> ... when you have a spec as large as HTML
# [19:29] <timeless> ... writing a Test Suite is a big task
# [19:29] <timeless> ... we put a lot of effort into it
# [19:30] <timeless> ... we did an extra push
# [19:30] <timeless> ... to ensure we have a good Test Suite, so we can exit CR on schedule
# [19:30] <paulc> Topic: HTML Test Suite coverage, gaps and status
# [19:30] <timeless> ... a few testing topics that I want to introduce
# [19:30] * timeless that's lready there from the break
# [19:30] <timeless> ... the testing repository has moved to github
# [19:31] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
# [19:31] * timeless https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests
# [19:31] * timeless AV guy is going to call up the bridge
# [19:31] * timeless [dial tones]
# [19:31] * Joins: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak)
# [19:32] * timeless chaals you know you've been doing this too long when you recognize that dialing tone sequence
# [19:32] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [19:32] * Zakim has not yet started, plh
# [19:32] * Zakim sees on irc: BobLund, krisk, MichaelC_SJC, SteveF, markw_, jernoble, abraud, Bin_Hu, acolwell, jeff, johnsim, edoyle, eliot, bryan, wseltzer, cabanier, CyrilRa, adrianba, Jungkee,
# [19:32] * Zakim ... JF, aizu, rubys, Mark_Vickers, Travis, chaals, ddorwin, glenn_
# [19:32] <plh> zakim, list conference
# [19:32] <Zakim> I don't understand 'list conference', plh
# [19:32] <plh> zakim, list conferences
# [19:32] <Zakim> I see T&S_(DNTC)1:00PM, HTML_CG(F2F)12:00PM, W3C_DOCS()1:00PM active
# [19:32] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are Team_(site-design)17:03Z, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM, WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM
# [19:32] <plh> zaki, this is html_cg
# [19:32] <plh> zakim, this is html_cg
# [19:32] <Zakim> ok, plh; that matches HTML_CG(F2F)12:00PM
# [19:32] <krisk> See -> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests
# [19:32] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [19:32] * Zakim sees on the phone: CyrilRa, Paypal
# [19:33] <timeless> s/See //
# [19:33] * timeless ArtB : you can call in
# [19:33] <timeless> darobin: we have a relatively new repo on github
# [19:33] <timeless> ... in addition to HTML tests
# [19:33] <timeless> ... this is the repo for all w3 related technologies from W3C
# [19:33] * Joins: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
# [19:33] <timeless> ... possibly also for Khronos
# [19:33] <timeless> ... there's 2d canvas
# [19:34] <timeless> ... webapps tests
# [19:34] <timeless> ... an html directory - the html test suite
# [19:34] <timeless> ... in github fashion
# [19:34] <timeless> ... if you want to contribute
# [19:34] <timeless> ... you fork the repo
# [19:34] <timeless> ... clone it locally
# [19:34] <timeless> ... make changes
# [19:34] <timeless> ... push changes back
# [19:34] <timeless> ... make pull request
# [19:34] <timeless> ... someone working on test review team
# [19:34] <timeless> ... will give feedback or merge in
# [19:34] <timeless> ... we have a fairly straightforward workflow
# [19:35] <timeless> ... we had a test suite
# [19:35] <timeless> ... we noticed the bottleneck was in reviewing tests
# [19:35] <timeless> ... people would write them, submit them
# [19:35] <timeless> ... but they'd get stuck there
# [19:35] <timeless> ... if you're interested in helping review tests
# [19:35] <timeless> ... writing tests is difficult if you're not familiar w/ the proces
# [19:35] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:35] <timeless> s/proces/process/
# [19:35] <ArtB> zakim, code?
# [19:36] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ArtB
# [19:36] <timeless> ... but reviewing them is a good way to start
# [19:36] <timeless> ... we have w3c-test.org
# [19:36] <timeless> ... it has a web platform test subdirectory
# [19:36] * timeless http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/ (someone please -> http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/ Web Platform Tests)
# [19:36] <timeless> ... for HTML, see we have a breakdown
# [19:37] <darobin> http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/tools/coverage/?algos=2&assume-idl=85&assume-tooling=50&idl=5&level=1&propdef=8&reftest-factor=2&review-success=50&review-time=30&rfc2119=4&sort-by=id&spec=html&test-time=60
# [19:37] <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
# [19:37] <timeless> foliet: where is the Accessibility section?
# [19:37] * Joins: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak)
# [19:37] <timeless> darobin: this is html
# [19:37] <timeless> ... w3c has a fellow on loan from Facebook
# [19:38] <timeless> ... tobie
# [19:38] <chaals> -> http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/ Web Platform Tests
# [19:38] <timeless> ... and they're working on figuring out how to make the accessibility testing side work
# [19:38] <timeless> ... accessibility testing is harder to make automatable
# [19:38] <timeless> ... they're considering Web Driver
# [19:38] <timeless> foliet: there's a community of driven people
# [19:38] <plh> q+
# [19:38] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [19:38] <timeless> ... we could put Brawn instead
# [19:39] <timeless> darobin: we're in the process of raising funds
# [19:39] <timeless> ... and trying to develop tools, to do test running, result gathering, analysis, etc.
# [19:39] <timeless> ... for manual tests, we have a prototype, we're not happy w/ it
# [19:39] <timeless> ... i wouldn't want to launch a big crowd sourcing on it now
# [19:39] <timeless> ... they'd give up on it within a day
# [19:39] <timeless> ... for CSS, there are plenty of things you can't automate
# [19:39] <plh> q-
# [19:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:39] <timeless> ... we want to push a crowd-sourcing effort
# [19:40] <timeless> ... no timeline for that
# [19:40] <timeless> ... plh ?
# [19:40] <timeless> plh: we're going to develop the infrastructure
# [19:40] <timeless> ... i don't think we'll be in a position to push for crowd-sourcing w/in 6 months
# [19:40] <timeless> ... and it's hard to align with a timeline
# [19:40] <timeless> ... i can't rely on crowd-sourcing if i need to deliver by 2014
# [19:40] <timeless> darobin: you were talking about crowd-sourcing writing of tests
# [19:41] <timeless> ... but foliet was talking about crowd-sourcing running
# [19:41] <timeless> foliet: we have a strong community, both professional and volunteer
# [19:41] <timeless> ... who'd be able to run tests
# [19:41] <timeless> plh: for long term, we'd like to rely on Driver
# [19:41] <timeless> ... i don't think we'll rely on it before next year
# [19:41] <timeless> darobin: Accessibility testing is definitely part of it
# [19:42] <timeless> plh: when we test <track> or [Media].mediagroup, it would be part of that
# [19:42] <timeless> darobin: to give you a sense of the size of the Test Suite
# [19:42] <timeless> ... we have over 10,000 tests
# [19:42] <chaals> [/me wonders about webdriver running accessibility tools that are not built into browsers - but not sure that's a critical thing to say here]
# [19:42] <timeless> ... we want 26,000
# [19:42] <timeless> paulc: from my point of view, this is going at it ass-backwards
# [19:43] <timeless> ... HTML5 WG went into CR w/ a passive exit critera
# [19:43] <timeless> s/critera/criteria/
# [19:43] <timeless> ... that we don't need to test things if we claim we have interop
# [19:43] <timeless> ... we have a grant to not to write tests
# [19:43] <timeless> ... i understand there's a wide desire to have a broad test suite for the platform
# [19:43] <timeless> ... our job in this WG is to get out of CR
# [19:44] <timeless> ... if we believe we have compat in an area, then we don't need tests there
# [19:44] <timeless> ... this is creating a higher mountain than we have to climb
# [19:44] <timeless> darobin: there are 2 things
# [19:44] <timeless> ... `the test suite we need to exit criteria`
# [19:44] <timeless> paulc: no
# [19:44] <timeless> ... we need test results
# [19:44] <timeless> ... you don't need a test suite to get out of CR
# [19:44] <timeless> ... you need interop proof that the director will accept
# [19:45] <timeless> ... this WG went into CR w/ another way to do that as well
# [19:45] <timeless> ... "if we can identify parts of the spec that are broadly implemented
# [19:45] <timeless> ... by implementations out there
# [19:45] <timeless> ... then we don't need a test suite for that"
# [19:45] <timeless> darobin: we would need 8.5 years to finish this
# [19:45] <timeless> ... i don't think our goal is to exit CR in 2021
# [19:45] <timeless> ... which is why, within the context of exiting CR for the HTML WG
# [19:46] <timeless> ... there's a subset we need to target
# [19:46] <timeless> ... we don't need 100% in all these boxes
# [19:46] <timeless> ... it's important to have syntax, and some other things
# [19:46] <timeless> ... but we need to prioritize
# [19:46] <timeless> ... figure out which areas we feel definitely need a test suite to demonstrate interoperability
# [19:46] <krisk> q+
# [19:46] * Zakim sees krisk on the speaker queue
# [19:46] <timeless> ... i don't think we can go to the Directory and say we don't have any tests
# [19:46] <bryan> q+
# [19:46] * Zakim sees krisk, bryan on the speaker queue
# [19:46] <timeless> ... this group needs to decide as a group which to work on
# [19:47] <timeless> ... we have 6000 tests waiting for review
# [19:47] <timeless> ... testing for Video, Track, things we know are new
# [19:47] * chaals mjs
# [19:47] <timeless> mjs: it makes sense to prioritize the tests
# [19:47] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:47] <timeless> ... stating the criteria as the new features that need tests
# [19:47] <timeless> ... isn't the right reason
# [19:48] <timeless> ... <video> is possibly not what we need tests for
# [19:48] <timeless> ... we have lots of real world consumers
# [19:48] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [19:48] <timeless> ... whereas microdata has less use, or older elements
# [19:48] <timeless> ... even though they've been around forever
# [19:48] <timeless> ... e.g. if they were loosely defined before and are now strongly defined
# [19:49] <timeless> ... we should ask "do we have some reason other than a test suite to decide if something is strongly interoperable"
# [19:49] <timeless> ack krisk
# [19:49] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
# [19:49] <glenn_> q+
# [19:49] * Zakim sees bryan, glenn_ on the speaker queue
# [19:49] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [19:50] <timeless> [ laughter re using microphone ]
# [19:50] <timeless> krisk: master branch has WebGL and other stuff
# [19:50] * mjs manages to join
# [19:50] <timeless> ... really concerned we're losing focus
# [19:50] <timeless> ... there's a CR branch that hasn't had updates in month
# [19:50] <timeless> ... there's tons of action in master
# [19:50] * chaals wonders if you can hear on the bridge
# [19:50] <timeless> ... there's tons of tests in master branch for canvas, but they don't work
# [19:50] <timeless> ... the tests in CR branch work
# [19:51] * ArtB no, only Robin and Paul can be heard (and now Kris)
# [19:51] <timeless> ... in concerned about how this test suite which will last for many years converges w/ our plan to get the spec to REC
# [19:51] <timeless> darobin: i agree
# [19:51] <timeless> ... the html testing TF
# [19:51] * chaals notes that means we need to be strict about using the mic...
# [19:51] <timeless> ... should focus on getting to REC
# [19:51] <timeless> ... contributing to the broader thing, but not getting lost in it completely
# [19:51] <timeless> ... i wasn't aware the canvas test suite was broken
# [19:51] <timeless> krisk: testing wants stuff to be automated
# [19:52] <timeless> ... we made canvas automated w/ TestHarness.s
# [19:52] <timeless> s/TestHarness.s/TestHarness.js/
# [19:52] <timeless> ... but we're churning it
# [19:52] <timeless> darobin: you should raise a bug on that
# [19:52] <timeless> ... we are saving time by making them automatable
# [19:52] <timeless> krisk: if we're just trying to say that <canvas> works and we're done
# [19:52] <CyrilRa> silence
# [19:52] <timeless> MikeSmith: ms2ger made automation for <canvas> testing
# [19:53] <timeless> q?
# [19:53] * Zakim sees bryan, glenn_ on the speaker queue
# [19:53] <krisk> Here is an example http://www.w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/2dcontext/path-objects/2d.path.arc.angle.5.html
# [19:53] <timeless> [ paulc will carry mic around for the next half hour ]
# [19:53] <rubys> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/public-permissive-exit-criteria.html
# [19:53] <timeless> ack bryan
# [19:53] * Zakim sees glenn_ on the speaker queue
# [19:53] <timeless> bryan: we should clarify focus on the spec
# [19:53] <krisk> This is in the master branch (doesn't work)
# [19:53] <timeless> ... which section needs tests
# [19:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:53] <timeless> ... that would help `ben` go through the spec
# [19:53] <timeless> ... to decide which parts need testing
# [19:54] <timeless> ... there's a need to get down to the next level
# [19:54] <krisk> In the CR it's working http://www.w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/CR/canvas2d/path-objects/2d.path.arc.angle.5.html
# [19:54] <timeless> ... we'd like to focus the test writing
# [19:54] <timeless> ... which parts we should be writing tests
# [19:54] <timeless> ... which sections will have this `informal exit criteria`
# [19:54] <timeless> [ paulc projects http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/public-permissive-exit-criteria.html ]
# [19:54] <timeless> paulc: this is the exit criteria
# [19:54] <JF> s/`ben`/Bin (Hu)
# [19:55] * Joins: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak)
# [19:55] <timeless> "For features that are well known to be widely implemented and deployed, and where implementations are believed to match the specification, the Working Group will assume effective real-world interoperability without testing."
# [19:55] <timeless> paulc: i want this WG to start identifying those sections
# [19:55] <timeless> ... instead of building a massive infrastructure for html5
# [19:55] <CyrilRa> mic
# [19:55] <timeless> ... that will identify which in that bar graph need testing
# [19:55] <timeless> paulc: i was reading the text from the judgement level
# [19:55] <timeless> ... i'd like us to spend some time at this meeting
# [19:56] <chaals> [+1]
# [19:56] <timeless> ... w/ the ToC of HTML5 and Canvas
# [19:56] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:56] <timeless> ... Accessibility
# [19:56] <timeless> ... mjs, i'll pile on on Video
# [19:56] <timeless> ... but someone will put up a hand "in section .2 there's this feature i tried the other day"
# [19:56] <timeless> ... ah, ok, now we're getting the exception list
# [19:56] <timeless> ... to tell the testing people "we need a test there"
# [19:56] <timeless> ... i don't care what they do
# [19:57] <timeless> ... but we need the interoperability results
# [19:57] <timeless> ... "here's a test, MS, you don't do this the same way as Google
# [19:57] <timeless> ... we need to figure out if the spec is wrong, if you're wrong, if they're wrong
# [19:57] <timeless> ... of if something else is wrong"
# [19:57] <timeless> ... i agree w/ darobin, we won't get to the humongous test suite in time
# [19:57] <timeless> ... w/ the task ahead of us
# [19:57] <glenn_> q-
# [19:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:57] <timeless> darobin: we [w3] will get to the humongous pile, but not this group
# [19:58] <timeless> ... there's another group that wants to do that, but not this group
# [19:58] <timeless> ... the two are related, which is why i wanted to present the context
# [19:58] <timeless> q+ tantek
# [19:58] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <chaals> q+ tantek
# [19:58] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <timeless> tantek: Tantek Celik, Mozilla
# [19:58] <plh> --> http://www.w3.org/2013/04/test_plan2.html W3C open Web Platform testing plan
# [19:58] <timeless> ack ta
# [19:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <mjs> q+
# [19:58] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <timeless> tantek: there were large parts of CSS we thought were widely deployed and interop
# [19:58] <timeless> ... e.g. Margin collapsing
# [19:58] <timeless> ... in CSS1
# [19:59] <timeless> ... while developing the test suite for CSS2.1
# [19:59] <timeless> ... we thought things were widely implemented and deployed
# [19:59] <timeless> ... unless you think browsers are better implemented than CSS
# [19:59] <timeless> ... i'd challenge the assertion than the belief
# [19:59] <chaals> q+ krisk
# [19:59] * Zakim sees mjs, krisk on the speaker queue
# [19:59] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:59] <timeless> ack krisk
# [19:59] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:59] <timeless> krisk: thanks mjs (for yielding)
# [19:59] <timeless> ... back to darobin 's report
# [20:00] <rubys> q+
# [20:00] * Zakim sees mjs, rubys on the speaker queue
# [20:00] <timeless> ... going from the spec, section by section
# [20:00] <timeless> ... some are "this is just a definition"
# [20:00] <timeless> darobin: this has been updated since the first version
# [20:00] <timeless> krisk: in "infrastructure", there are a bunch of definitions
# [20:00] <timeless> ... a good thing to recognize
# [20:00] <plh> q+
# [20:00] * Zakim sees mjs, rubys, plh on the speaker queue
# [20:00] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@public.cloak)
# [20:00] <timeless> ack mjs
# [20:00] * Zakim sees rubys, plh on the speaker queue
# [20:00] <timeless> mjs: the point i'd like to make is thatr
# [20:00] <timeless> s/thatr/that/
# [20:00] <timeless> ... as the w3 process is set up
# [20:00] <timeless> ... getting to the REC stage
# [20:01] <timeless> ... the final stage of the process
# [20:01] <chaals> q+
# [20:01] * Zakim sees rubys, plh, chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:01] * Joins: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak)
# [20:01] <timeless> ... has a couple of different purposes, w/ different goals
# [20:01] <timeless> ... 1. is test suite driven and interoperable
# [20:01] <plh> q- later
# [20:01] * Zakim sees rubys, chaals, plh on the speaker queue
# [20:01] <timeless> ... 2. is to prove that a specification is truly ready and should be referenced
# [20:01] * ArtB wonders … if the group decides feature X is "widely interoperable" and hence no interop testing is needed, does the group have a requirement to objectively measure/show/demonstrate "widely interoperable"
# [20:01] <timeless> ... 3. is the w3c patent policy starts applying
# [20:01] <timeless> ... until that point, the policy is at best informal
# [20:01] <timeless> ... this leads to a tension
# [20:02] <timeless> ... between wanting interop
# [20:02] <timeless> .. and wanting the patent policy and getting people to "use this thing"
# [20:02] <timeless> s/../.../
# [20:02] <timeless> ... part of the reason for the informal interop bit
# [20:02] <timeless> ... is to allow for the second to parts
# [20:02] <timeless> ... i don't want to downplay making a comprehensive test suite
# [20:02] <timeless> ... but it does make sense to prioritize portions for the test suite
# [20:03] <timeless> ... even though i agree on roughly interoperable bits
# [20:03] <timeless> ... there are bits that are slightly complicated
# [20:03] <rubys> q-
# [20:03] * Zakim sees chaals, plh on the speaker queue
# [20:03] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:03] * davidb_ is now known as davidb
# [20:03] <timeless> ... saying "html5 is so much better than html4" is worth doing
# [20:03] <timeless> ... and not waiting too long
# [20:03] <timeless> paulc: darobin, if this WG could identify areas that need testing, that would be useful
# [20:03] <timeless> darobin: yes
# [20:03] <bryan> +1
# [20:03] <timeless> paulc: and areas where this group doesn't think need testing
# [20:03] <timeless> ... that would be useful
# [20:04] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [20:04] * Quits: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:05] <timeless> ... and work to identify qualitatively, interoperable, independent, implementations and judgement level
# [20:05] <plh> q?
# [20:05] * Zakim sees chaals, plh on the speaker queue
# [20:05] <Travis> q+
# [20:05] * Zakim sees chaals, plh, Travis on the speaker queue
# [20:05] <plh> ack chaals
# [20:05] * Zakim sees plh, Travis on the speaker queue
# [20:05] <timeless> ack chaals
# [20:05] * Zakim sees plh, Travis on the speaker queue
# [20:05] <timeless> chaals: what mjs said, we think it's important to ship this spec
# [20:05] <timeless> ... we expect we'll find more bugs
# [20:05] <timeless> ... we will want to improve stuff
# [20:05] <timeless> ack plh
# [20:05] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
# [20:05] <plh> --> http://www.w3.org/2013/04/test_plan2.html W3C open Web Platform testing plan
# [20:06] * timeless Travis : http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2340932
# [20:06] * timeless try that on IE10?
# [20:06] <timeless> plh: the test goal of this WG is different than the other test group
# [20:06] <timeless> ... a point i made to the testing team
# [20:06] <timeless> ... is that the HTML WG testing group will go for the minimum
# [20:06] <timeless> ... the goals are different
# [20:07] <timeless> ... even if the goal of the testing project is valuable
# [20:07] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@public.cloak) ("Verlassend")
# [20:07] <timeless> ... to push HTML5 to CR
# [20:07] * Joins: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak)
# [20:07] <timeless> ... i pasted a link by tobie for what we think for the testing project
# [20:07] <timeless> ... it's what we sent to our ...
# [20:07] <timeless> ... people are welcome to provide feedback
# [20:07] <timeless> ... this is wider than the scope of the HTML WG
# [20:07] <timeless> q?
# [20:07] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
# [20:08] <plh> ack Travis
# [20:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:08] * timeless krisk actually, maybe that url is for you :)
# [20:08] <timeless> Travis: the chart is good
# [20:08] <timeless> ... now we're trying to transition to defining what the WG needs to do for testing
# [20:08] <timeless> ... i'd like to focus the quantitative bits on our goals
# [20:09] <timeless> paulc: this topic isn't over
# [20:09] <timeless> ... i'd like us to seriously consider using the time we have tomorrow
# [20:09] <timeless> ... to use qualitative judgement
# [20:09] <timeless> ... not sure if we should do it as the group as a whole, or crowd-sourcing (breaking up into smaller groups)
# [20:09] <timeless> ... you should expect we'll spend some time tomorrow
# [20:10] <timeless> paulc: i'll return to the agenda
# [20:10] <timeless> Topic: Usage of Github and branching (Kris)
# [20:10] <timeless> paulc: did you make your point?
# [20:10] * Travis timeless: I've loaded the pastebin page--what am I looking for?
# [20:10] * timeless Travis save html locally and load in IE
# [20:10] * timeless if you see missing text in hebrew/english, it's bad :)
# [20:11] <timeless> krisk: the effort gone
# [20:11] <chaals> q+
# [20:11] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:11] <timeless> ... into setting this up in github, could go on forever
# [20:11] <timeless> ... is that where the CR branch come into play?
# [20:11] <timeless> darobin: yes
# [20:11] <timeless> krisk: so all changes there?
# [20:11] <timeless> darobin: no
# [20:11] <timeless> darobin: github repo has 2 branches
# [20:11] <timeless> ... 1. master
# [20:11] <timeless> ... 2. cr branch
# [20:11] <timeless> ... - designed as a subbranch
# [20:12] <timeless> s/master/master - where everything goes first/
# [20:12] <timeless> ... people interested in maintaining cr cherrypick
# [20:12] <timeless> paulc: does that apply to Canvas and others?
# [20:12] <timeless> darobin: yes
# [20:12] <timeless> krisk: also for webapps?
# [20:12] <timeless> darobin: idea was webapps would do the same thing
# [20:12] <timeless> ... but not our problem at all
# [20:12] <timeless> krisk: for a day or two
# [20:13] <timeless> chaals: we're following the html wg down the github rabbit hole
# [20:13] * Joins: acolwell_ (~acolwell@public.cloak)
# [20:13] <timeless> ack chaals
# [20:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:13] <timeless> chaals: w3 signed up for a decade long project
# [20:13] <timeless> ... w/ github
# [20:13] * Quits: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:13] <timeless> ... you're committed to making sure it stays alive?
# [20:13] <timeless> darobin: we're committed
# [20:13] <plh> q?
# [20:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:14] <timeless> krisk: the master branch
# [20:14] <timeless> ... e.g. for canvas
# [20:14] <timeless> ... wanting to avoid unnecessary churn
# [20:14] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:15] <timeless> paulc: who is the person responsible for the cr branch in github?
# [20:15] <timeless> darobin: probably me
# [20:15] <timeless> paulc: you, or the testing tf, or ?
# [20:15] <timeless> krisk: anyone part of w3 w/ pull privs can
# [20:15] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
# [20:15] <timeless> darobin: so far we've been working on the assumption that anyone willing to do work was welcome to do the work
# [20:15] <timeless> ... i was working on CR, but i haven't in a while
# [20:15] <timeless> ... but we don't have someone specifically responsible
# [20:15] <timeless> krisk: the TF could
# [20:16] <timeless> ... changes at TPAC, and moving to github
# [20:16] * plh do we have in effect differences between html 5.1 and html 5.0 tests at this point?
# [20:16] <timeless> ... html needs to move forward
# [20:16] <timeless> paulc: what about test results?
# [20:16] <timeless> ... if i'm an indivual
# [20:16] <timeless> ... or a company
# [20:16] <timeless> ... and trying to decide if i want to use the tests
# [20:16] <timeless> ... what's the setup to using the tests?
# [20:17] <timeless> darobin: if you go to w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/ there's a way to run the test suite
# [20:17] <timeless> ... you can check out the test suite
# [20:17] <timeless> ... we'd like implementors to use the test suite directly in their CI systems
# [20:18] <timeless> krisk: it's in github, but it's synced to w3c-test.org
# [20:18] <timeless> paulc: so i load this, and click this, and click this
# [20:18] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [20:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [20:18] <timeless> krisk: and you click a .html file
# [20:18] <timeless> ... "you passed!"
# [20:18] <timeless> darobin: it's missing straightforward navigation
# [20:18] <timeless> ... great browser, it supports document.title
# [20:19] <JonathanJ> Present+ Jonghong_Jeon
# [20:19] <timeless> paulc: on criteria in exit criteria
# [20:19] <timeless> ... the exit criteria testing requirements need to be publicly available
# [20:19] <chaals> -
# [20:19] <timeless> ... w/o that, crowd-sourcing wouldn't be possible
# [20:19] <timeless> s/-//
# [20:19] <chaals> q-
# [20:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:19] <timeless> s/-//
# [20:19] <timeless> s/-//
# [20:19] * timeless kicks chaals
# [20:19] <timeless> s/crowd/crowd-/
# [20:20] <timeless> paulc: i've been in groups where the interop requirements were confidential
# [20:20] <timeless> ... krisk any points on github/branching?
# [20:20] <timeless> krisk: action to make sure that it's clear
# [20:20] <timeless> ... what's to do
# [20:21] <timeless> paulc: action on Testing TF to make organization of github test suite is documented and clear?
# [20:21] <timeless> krisk: correct
# [20:21] <rubys> action on krisk make sure that the organizational structure of github test suite is well documented
# [20:21] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [20:21] <@trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [20:21] * timeless action failed!
# [20:21] <timeless> paulc: let's skip: Review of which parts of HTML5 pass the "passive exit criteria"
# [20:21] <timeless> Topic: Status of HTML 5.1 and Canvas open bugs
# [20:21] <rubys> action: krisk to make sure that the organizational structure of github test suite is well documented
# [20:21] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [20:21] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [20:21] <@trackbot> Error finding 'krisk'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [20:21] <chaals> q+ to raise the question of testing beyond the browser implementations
# [20:21] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:22] * Joins: aizu_ (~aizu@public.cloak)
# [20:22] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/tmp/wgtrends.cgi
# [20:22] <timeless> s|Topic: Status of HTML 5.1 and Canvas open bugs||
# [20:22] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/tmp/wgstatus.html
# [20:22] <timeless> ack chaals
# [20:22] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to raise the question of testing beyond the browser implementations
# [20:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:22] <timeless> chaals: there's testing for browsers
# [20:22] * Quits: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:22] <timeless> ... but browsers are not the web
# [20:22] <timeless> ... there's one of the pieces of the web
# [20:23] <timeless> ... people need to create stuff
# [20:23] <timeless> ... i don't see that all in the plan
# [20:23] <timeless> ... that seems like a failure
# [20:23] <timeless> ... quite happy w/ "testing of can you do this is anecdotal"
# [20:23] <timeless> ... saying "browsers will implement this code as specified"
# [20:23] <timeless> ... without saying "people will produce it as specified"
# [20:23] <timeless> ... is a problem
# [20:23] <timeless> paulc: how would we tackle this problem?
# [20:24] <timeless> ... if you made this point when we were discussing our exit criteria
# [20:24] <timeless> ... would we have changed them?
# [20:24] <timeless> chaals: i did raise it then
# [20:24] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [20:24] <rubys> action: on Kris Krueger to make sure that the organizational structure of github test suite is well documented
# [20:24] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [20:24] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [20:24] <@trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [20:24] <timeless> chaals: it's about also looking at authoring systems and usage workflows
# [20:24] <timeless> ... everything has been done
# [20:24] * timeless action <victim> not action on <victim>
# [20:24] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [20:24] <rubys> action: Kris Krueger to make sure that the organizational structure of github test suite is well documented
# [20:24] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [20:24] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [20:24] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-226 - Krueger to make sure that the organizational structure of github test suite is well documented [on Kris Krueger - due 2013-04-30].
# [20:25] <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
# [20:25] <timeless> chaals: i'll type a comment
# [20:27] * Quits: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:27] <chaals> chaals: We have a lot of testing oriented toward browsers. But (like accessibility testing that goes beyond "simple" browsers) we haven't talked about other parts of the infrastructure - processing systems, authoring systems, content management and maintenance tools. If these don't produce what is in the spec, it doesn't matter what browsers do since they won't be processing that kind of content
# [20:28] <chaals> ... so I think it is important that we remember the rest of teh infrastructure in testing
# [20:28] <timeless> Topic: Status of HTML 5.1 and Canvas open bugs
# [20:28] <timeless> paulc: microdata fell steeply
# [20:28] <timeless> darobin: looks steep, but it fell from 9 to 1
# [20:28] <timeless> paulc: when we appointed the editorial team last fall
# [20:28] <timeless> ... we had 480 bugs
# [20:28] <timeless> ... i think the editorial team quickly got rid of the spam
# [20:28] <timeless> ... when people typed the home row
# [20:28] <timeless> ... down to 420
# [20:28] <timeless> ... and since then, we're down to less than half
# [20:29] <timeless> ... we still have a bunch of important bugs
# [20:29] <timeless> ... bugs that might impact HTML5 or Canvas CR
# [20:29] <timeless> ... not clear what the situation is
# [20:29] <timeless> ... we need a downward trend
# [20:29] <timeless> ... and editors need to understand how to balance editing and fixing bugs
# [20:29] <timeless> ... darobin ?
# [20:29] <chaals> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [20:29] <Zakim> On the phone I see CyrilRa, Paypal
# [20:29] <timeless> darobin: thinking about that
# [20:29] <timeless> ... want to go through the buglist and mark absolutely must be fixed for CR
# [20:29] <timeless> paulc: maybe it'd be useful if you did that
# [20:30] <timeless> ... we could add another histogram of that
# [20:30] <timeless> ... to see our flight path of zero bugs to cr
# [20:30] <rubys> action: robin to give us a clear indication as to which html5 bugs apply to CR due in one month
# [20:30] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [20:30] * @trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [20:30] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-227 - Give us a clear indication as to which html5 bugs apply to CR due in one month [on Robin Berjon - due 2013-04-30].
# [20:30] <timeless> ... let's do that, on darobin on behalf of the editorial team
# [20:30] <timeless> ... and on the canvas editors?
# [20:31] <timeless> cabanier: i think there are like 6
# [20:31] <timeless> paulc: should be very easy
# [20:31] <timeless> cabanier: i think they're all for the next version
# [20:31] <timeless> ... there's one we're going to remove
# [20:31] <timeless> ... hit regions, that changes an example
# [20:31] <timeless> paulc: darobin if we can get that in the next month
# [20:31] <timeless> darobin: yeah yeah
# [20:31] <timeless> paulc: also, based on the editor's meeting
# [20:32] <timeless> ... it isn't appropriate for someone to file a bug and wait 6 months for a response from the editors
# [20:32] <timeless> ... someone needs to triage incoming bugs
# [20:32] <chaals> i/Topic: Status/[The search engine and other processing implementations of microdata are an example of important but non-browser implementations, and on the other side so are code generators which actually create microdata e.g. for schema.org]
# [20:32] <timeless> ... comments from editors?
# [20:32] <timeless> Topic: Status of Features at Risk (more, less?)
# [20:32] <timeless> paulc: suggested at last week's WG meeting
# [20:32] <timeless> ... that we might look at Features AT RISK
# [20:33] * timeless Travis did you find a second browser? :P
# [20:33] <timeless> paulc: this is the status section from the html draft
# [20:34] <timeless> ... looking at this
# [20:34] <glenn_> <h2 class="no-num no-toc" id="status-of-this-document">Status of This document</h2>
# [20:34] <timeless> ... there's a lot of history here
# [20:34] <timeless> ... anyone have comments on these items?
# [20:34] <timeless> ... App Cache was added AT RISK because of talk of an App Cache v2
# [20:34] <timeless> ... I believe from TPAC was that this would be done in WebApps
# [20:34] <timeless> ... chairs had an offline discussion
# [20:34] <timeless> ... chaals, i don't think you got yourselves suitably rechartered
# [20:34] <glenn_> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#status-of-this-document
# [20:34] <timeless> chaals: we believe that work is covered by our existing charter
# [20:35] <timeless> ... we'll check again
# [20:35] <timeless> ... if it isn't, we'll recharter
# [20:35] <timeless> darobin: WebApps has a "get out of jail for free"
# [20:35] <timeless> chaals: it isn't free
# [20:35] <timeless> darobin: simply by notifying AC
# [20:35] <timeless> chaals: a bit more complex than that
# [20:35] <timeless> darobin: to take things that were worked on by HTML
# [20:35] <timeless> chaals: it's an admin discussion
# [20:35] <timeless> ... between chairs and w3 and AC
# [20:36] <timeless> paulc: will you discuss AppCache v2 this week?
# [20:36] <timeless> chaals: yes
# [20:36] <timeless> paulc: what did we do about <hgroup>?
# [20:36] <timeless> chaals: it got kicked out
# [20:36] <timeless> paulc: anything else to take out
# [20:36] <timeless> plh: or add to the list
# [20:36] <timeless> paulc: not sure how to add to a CR at risk list
# [20:37] <timeless> rubys: we seem to think that API for Microdata is at risk
# [20:37] <timeless> darobin: it's in microdata
# [20:37] <timeless> paulc: anyone know what the cite= / bug 18915 thing is?
# [20:37] <timeless> mjs: spec has a requirement that if you use cite= that the UA has to have a way to get to the url
# [20:37] <timeless> ... great wishlist, but never implemented
# [20:38] <timeless> chaals: implemented in rare places, but yeah
# [20:38] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask if we talked about style@scoped
# [20:38] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [20:38] <timeless> paulc: not seeing further actions
# [20:38] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [20:38] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask if we talked about style@scoped
# [20:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:38] <timeless> MikeSmith: we have two style@scoped implementations
# [20:38] <timeless> paulc: i'll ask darobin and the editorial team
# [20:39] <timeless> ... we're talking about heartbeat documents for 5.1
# [20:39] <timeless> ... do the editors think it would make sense to publish a heartbeat of the CR?
# [20:39] <timeless> darobin: we could
# [20:39] <timeless> ... not sure if there would be extreme value in it
# [20:39] <timeless> paulc: if we did a heartbeat, then it would be useful to update the status
# [20:39] <timeless> ... to note that it's unlikely for the feature to be dropped because we saw implementations
# [20:40] <timeless> ... what would cause us to do a heartbeat for the CR?
# [20:40] <timeless> chaals: a handful of important changes
# [20:40] <timeless> ... taking <hgroup> out of the spec
# [20:40] <timeless> ... @ Yandex, after they struggled through the badly written English in Russian
# [20:40] <timeless> ... and then told them that it changed
# [20:40] <timeless> paulc: we have dropping <hgroup> and adding <main>
# [20:41] <timeless> ... anyone in the group who think that's enough to trigger a heartbeat?
# [20:41] <timeless> chaals: what's the cost of a heartbeat?
# [20:41] <timeless> darobin: grumpy editors
# [20:41] <timeless> tantek: question i'd ask
# [20:41] <timeless> ... is any features that were dropped or changed were at-risk?
# [20:41] <timeless> ... if they were at-risk, then i'd see no problem w/ a heartbeat
# [20:42] <timeless> paulc: <hgroup> was at risk
# [20:42] <timeless> ... but <main> was added
# [20:42] <timeless> ... we know we're going back to LC
# [20:42] <timeless> ... <main> is in 5.1,
# [20:42] <timeless> ... we're folding 5.0
# [20:42] <timeless> ... but we were going to publish a NOTE
# [20:42] <timeless> ... but plan 2014 permitted extensions to be folded in
# [20:42] <timeless> q?
# [20:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:43] <timeless> q+ tantek
# [20:43] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [20:43] <timeless> glenn_: what do you mean heartbeat of a CR?
# [20:43] <timeless> ... a new CR?
# [20:43] <timeless> ... experience in other WGs
# [20:43] <timeless> ... if you make a substantive change, you need a new CR, doesn't mean going to LC
# [20:43] <timeless> ack
# [20:43] <timeless> s/ack//
# [20:43] <timeless> ack t
# [20:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:43] <timeless> tantek: my preference is to issue a new CR
# [20:44] <timeless> ... i don't think that's supported by the CR process
# [20:44] <timeless> paulc: we've issued WDs saying they were updated versions of CRs in other WGs
# [20:44] <timeless> chaals: i'm working on the process document
# [20:44] <timeless> ... tantek, your point is noted
# [20:45] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [20:45] * timeless plh: hosts to get us more mics for later
# [20:45] <timeless> glenn_: changes sylvia has made for Text Track
# [20:46] * timeless darobin did i spell that right/ nick?
# [20:46] <timeless> paulc: were those changes in 5.0 or 5.1?
# [20:46] <timeless> glenn_: one specific change was made to 5.0
# [20:46] <timeless> ... most changes were in 5.1
# [20:46] <timeless> ... one of the changes was going to be backwards incompatible
# [20:46] <timeless> ... so she made one change to 5.0
# [20:46] * darobin not sure what you're asking about spelling timeless
# [20:46] * timeless `sylvia`?
# [20:46] * darobin oh, no, Silvia
# [20:46] <timeless> paulc: where / when was this discussion?
# [20:46] * darobin think German
# [20:47] <timeless> s/sylvia/Silvia/
# [20:47] * Joins: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
# [20:47] <timeless> Chair: paulc, rubys
# [20:47] <timeless> paulc: Silvia was trying to abstract out of the extension spec
# [20:47] <timeless> s/of/to/
# [20:47] <plh> one can udpate a CR
# [20:47] <plh> the Process allows that
# [20:47] <timeless> ... the portion for captioning
# [20:48] <timeless> Janina: longdesc is obsolete in CR
# [20:48] <timeless> ... what's the status?
# [20:48] <timeless> darobin: we have an open bug
# [20:48] <timeless> ... i haven't removed yet
# [20:48] <timeless> ... but i will, it will happen
# [20:48] <timeless> paulc: another change to CR?
# [20:48] <timeless> darobin: yes
# [20:48] <timeless> paulc: thank you janina
# [20:48] <glenn_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Apr/0063.html
# [20:48] <timeless> ... people said earlier, their bar would be different by kind
# [20:49] <timeless> darobin: this is moving a had to be supported out of obsolete
# [20:49] <timeless> paulc: isn't that what Silvia's proposal was as well?
# [20:49] <timeless> darobin: possibly
# [20:49] <glenn_> glenn: see above link regarding possible change (or need to change) html5.0 re: WebVTT features
# [20:50] <timeless> Topic: Moving Image Description Extension to Last Call and plans for re-integration with HTML 5.0 (A11Y TF) [longdesc]
# [20:50] <timeless> chaals: we have this spec
# [20:50] <timeless> ... the spec is HTML Community Description Extension
# [20:50] <timeless> ... we have FPWD
# [20:50] <timeless> ... we've described longdesc
# [20:50] <timeless> ... we have outstanding
# [20:50] <timeless> ... we expect to go to LC
# [20:50] * Joins: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak)
# [20:50] <timeless> janina: June 11
# [20:50] <timeless> chaals: the thing according to the timeline of the patent policy
# [20:51] <timeless> ... we expect 150 days after FPWD, that we'll be done
# [20:51] <timeless> ... the question of integration into HTML -something- is open
# [20:51] <timeless> ... we haven't had nor sought agreement to integrate into html
# [20:51] <timeless> ... we figured we'd think about that more
# [20:51] <timeless> ... when the spec is actually finished
# [20:51] <timeless> ... when we'd actually gotten all that
# [20:51] <timeless> ... when the thing is ready
# [20:52] <timeless> ... whatever version of HTML is in the timeline in the point of process
# [20:52] <timeless> paulc: re: what Janina brought up
# [20:52] <timeless> ... do you need the change darobin pointed to when you go to LC?
# [20:52] <timeless> chaals: we don't need it
# [20:52] <timeless> ... but we'd like it to be made
# [20:52] <timeless> ... it isn't time critical
# [20:52] <timeless> paulc: just wanted to understand if it's a hard linkage
# [20:52] <timeless> janina: no
# [20:52] <timeless> paulc: do you need help from the WG on the 11 bugs?
# [20:52] <timeless> chaals: yes, i'm supposed to close 9 on thursday
# [20:52] <timeless> ... the way the TF works
# [20:53] <timeless> ... we propose resolutions
# [20:53] <timeless> ... at meetings, w/ a week delay since not everyone goes to meetings
# [20:53] <timeless> ... there are 2 bugs left
# [20:53] <timeless> paulc: when you go to LC
# [20:53] <timeless> ... is that a CfC between PF and HTML WGs?
# [20:53] <timeless> janina: I expect
# [20:53] <timeless> chaals: yes
# [20:53] <timeless> paulc: you're effectively giving a Time Table to the WG and people who read our notes
# [20:53] <timeless> ... that approximately in June
# [20:53] <timeless> ... to see a CfC
# [20:54] <timeless> ... since the TF owns the spec and does the work
# [20:54] <timeless> ... the TF will propose a Draft LC WD
# [20:54] <timeless> ... that would go to PF and HTML WG for CfCs
# [20:54] <timeless> ... and it would be published jointly by the WGs as the extension spec
# [20:54] <timeless> ... is that fair janina?
# [20:54] <timeless> janina: yes
# [20:54] <timeless> paulc: this is an example of Plan 2014 working
# [20:55] <timeless> ... when we first proposed this, a number of people were nervous
# [20:55] <timeless> ... and suspicious
# [20:55] <timeless> ... this is an example of Plan 2014 at its best
# [20:55] <timeless> ... only thing better is if we actually fold it back in
# [20:55] <timeless> chaals: from my perspective, so far so good
# [20:55] <timeless> janina: +1
# [20:55] <timeless> paulc: experience as chair, best thing to do is recess/adjourn early
# [20:55] <timeless> rubys: lunch is out there
# [20:55] <timeless> paulc: please gather before 1pm
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# [20:56] <timeless> ... topic will be MSE
# [20:56] <timeless> [ Lunch ]
# [20:56] <timeless> topic: Media Source Extensions (MSE) (Media TF)
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# [21:02] <Zakim> -CyrilRa
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# [21:11] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 1 new commit to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/03feebf25072ba37ee7095da756a8641b920f51f
# [21:11] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg 03feebf ianh: [giow] (0) ImageData objects now expose an explicit pixel density, enabling them to be converted to BitmapImage objects correctly....
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# [21:18] <SteveF> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/W3C-WHATWG-Differences
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# [21:38] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/dab1a6912807...dd337bd21b90
# [21:38] <gitbot> html/master 18097b2 steve faulkner: tweaked aria-valuetext translatable conditions
# [21:38] <gitbot> html/master dd337bd steve faulkner: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/w3c/html
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# [22:06] <timeless> paulc: in HTML WG, we have a Media TF that's working on MSE and EME
# [22:06] <timeless> ... at TPAC last fall, we spent probably 2 hours going over individual bugs
# [22:06] <timeless> ... I humorously commented that Google was telling Netflix how to build their service
# [22:06] <timeless> ... and Netflix was telling Google how to build their browser
# [22:06] <timeless> ... I got feedback that we had made good progress
# [22:06] <timeless> ... we don't have that many bugs
# [22:06] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [22:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, CyrilRa
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# [22:08] * timeless paulc fell off irc which is annoying for the scribe
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# [22:09] <timeless> paulc: we had a couple of topics
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# [22:09] <timeless> ... open bugs, and getting MSE to LC
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# [22:11] <paulc> MSE bugs; http://tinyurl.com/6pdnzej
# [22:11] <timeless> s|MSE bugs; http://tinyurl.com/6pdnzej|-> http://tinyurl.com/6pdnzej MSE bugs|
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# [22:12] <timeless> paulc: based on what worked @TPAC in Nov
# [22:12] <timeless> ... my principle is that we step through these bugs
# [22:12] <timeless> ... you tell us what you know about them
# [22:12] <timeless> ... tell me what to do
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# [22:12] * timeless acolwell
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# [22:13] <timeless> acolwell: Aaron Colwell, editor of MSE
# [22:13] * Travis timeless: Here's that nVidia driver you wanted-- http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles/6md647ww.exe
# [22:13] <timeless> ... bug 20760 - defining interface for quality metrics
# [22:13] <timeless> ... adrianba had a proposal
# [22:13] <timeless> ... this is a subset
# [22:13] <timeless> ... i'm not sure of current status
# [22:13] <timeless> adrianba: we want to discuss this
# [22:13] * timeless paulc do you want a mic?
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# [22:13] * timeless adrianba sure
# [22:13] * timeless paulc he's right behind you (MikeSmith , MichaelC )
# [22:14] <timeless> adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft
# [22:14] <timeless> ... we're getting close to agreement here
# [22:14] <timeless> ... couple of minor things
# [22:14] <timeless> ... reflected towards the end
# [22:14] <timeless> ... we proposed a method, rather than an attribute to make it clear you'd get a new object each time
# [22:15] <timeless> ... it's possible that the application could remember the timestamp for when it called the method
# [22:15] <timeless> ... but if there's latency, having the timestamp in the object makes sense
# [22:15] <timeless> ... we want to make sure all the data is from the same time
# [22:15] <timeless> ... not sure whether we think that just this data is sufficient
# [22:15] <timeless> ... it's obviously less than what we originally proposed
# [22:15] <timeless> ... which we thought was a good small subset
# [22:16] <timeless> ... it seems we're heading toward consensus with this limited subset
# [22:16] <timeless> ... if there are problems w/ implementation experience, we can change
# [22:16] <timeless> acolwell: how should we proceed?
# [22:16] <timeless> ... i can live w/ the timestamp
# [22:16] <timeless> ... i don't strongly object
# [22:16] <timeless> ... the framerate i think you can derive
# [22:16] <timeless> ... jitter, i don't know
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# [22:16] <timeless> adrianba: i'm fine w/ leaving out those data values for now
# [22:16] <timeless> ... i'd like to see
# [22:17] <timeless> ... do you agree a method conveys more clearly than an attribute?
# [22:17] <timeless> ... i think people assume a value from an attribute they assume it's constant
# [22:17] <timeless> acolwell: i know the `buffered` attribute on a MediaElement says it's a new object each time
# [22:17] <timeless> ... not sure about elsewhere
# [22:17] <timeless> paulc: you said you wanted an object
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# [22:17] <timeless> adrianba: i wanted a method to indicate it's a new object
# [22:17] <timeless> acolwell: i was using the MediaElement as an example
# [22:18] <timeless> ... i'll take an action to incorporate those changes into the spec
# [22:18] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20760
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# [22:18] * timeless adrianba how does smith spell his name?
# [22:18] <timeless> XX: total video frames, how is that?
# [22:19] <timeless> acolwell: originally it was frames before decode
# [22:19] <timeless> ... theoretically displayed
# [22:19] <timeless> XX: these values convey intended framerate and dropped frames
# [22:19] <timeless> ... initially we had a proposal for frame jitter
# [22:19] <timeless> ... how was that resolved?
# [22:19] <timeless> adrianba: feedback so far, we want to make this as simple as possible
# [22:19] <timeless> ... there's agreement on determining frames being dropped
# [22:20] <timeless> ... "how essential to applications is jitter?"
# [22:20] <timeless> ... there doesn't appear to be much support for jitter right now
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# [22:20] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/610e94d71afef8168a155903fb64261c3c0ab3a2
# [22:20] <gitbot> html/master 610e94d steve faulkner: remove hgroup from element list...
# [22:20] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [22:20] <timeless> ... we want to support things where there's consensus
# [22:20] <timeless> ... the question is can we make a case for jitter?
# [22:20] <timeless> acolwell: my concern is was that jitter significant?
# [22:20] <bryan> jitter is an important metric especially in variable network environments
# [22:20] <timeless> ... will people understand which to use
# [22:21] <timeless> paulc: you'll raise adding jitter later?
# [22:21] <timeless> adrianba: rate
# [22:21] <timeless> paulc: and later, we'll open a new bug and point back
# [22:21] <timeless> s/XX/jerry/
# [22:21] <timeless> s/XX/jerry/
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# [22:21] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to CR: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/5ebde5b9f609f00548800d882e0d8b346f8d789f
# [22:21] <gitbot> html/CR 5ebde5b steve faulkner: remove hgroup from element list...
# [22:21] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [22:22] <timeless> acolwell: adrianba, can we do "out of order" last?
# [22:22] <timeless> paulc: do out of order out of order?
# [22:22] <timeless> adrianba: sure
# [22:22] <paulc> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21298
# [22:22] <timeless> acolwell: this is the media primer bug
# [22:22] <timeless> ... i kept it open because they requested a diagram
# [22:22] * timeless Travis installer failed :)
# [22:22] <timeless> paulc: adrianba, you sent an email
# [22:23] <timeless> ... saying that the TF was requesting chairs do a call for volunteers for a primer for MSE
# [22:23] <timeless> ... i responded saying i'd do that
# [22:23] <timeless> ... i haven't done that
# [22:23] <timeless> acolwell: you were saying this bug would be resolved by someone writing a primer
# [22:23] <timeless> ... i could resolve this as later for the primer
# [22:23] <timeless> ... this shouldn't block getting to LC
# [22:23] <timeless> ... i wanted to see i can get agreement on that
# [22:23] <timeless> paulc: proposal to resolve as LATER
# [22:23] <timeless> ... put it in later, or in a primer
# [22:24] <timeless> ... 21298 is resolved LATER, w/ possibility of inserting diagram later
# [22:24] <paulc> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21431
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# [22:24] <timeless> acolwell: i believe this can be resolved
# [22:24] <timeless> ... i'm not an expert
# [22:24] <timeless> ... i believe glenn_ said the preference would be to have a reasonable behavior
# [22:24] <timeless> ... and not have to deal w/ overlapping text tracks
# [22:25] <timeless> ... i believe we can properly handle splicing of text tracks
# [22:25] <timeless> ... assuming we don't have to deal w/ overlapped ones
# [22:25] <timeless> ... the behavior is predictable if you have overlapped
# [22:25] <timeless> ... but it isn't optimal
# [22:25] <timeless> ... i plan to close this bug
# [22:25] <timeless> paulc: how will you resolve this?
# [22:25] <timeless> acolwell: WONTFIX
# [22:26] <timeless> glenn_: does the current text cover text tracks that support/override the behavior?
# [22:26] <timeless> acolwell: it doesn't
# [22:26] <timeless> glenn_: i'd like to see that
# [22:26] <timeless> acolwell: can you provide suggested text and location?
# [22:26] <timeless> paulc: if glenn_ can give a target and non-normative text
# [22:26] <timeless> ... saying that the format of a Text Track might override that
# [22:27] <paulc> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21536
# [22:27] <timeless> acolwell: i think adrianba is on the hook to provide text
# [22:27] <timeless> ... this is about origin/data handed to MSE
# [22:27] <timeless> adrianba: we um
# [22:27] <timeless> ... talked about this in the context of
# [22:27] <timeless> ... some of the other origin related questions
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# [22:27] <timeless> ... there are some aspects of the video
# [22:27] <timeless> ... element
# [22:27] <timeless> ... that depend upon whether or not the source of the data is Same-Origin or not
# [22:28] <timeless> ... since MSE allows applications to append data to data they have access to already, into the media buffer
# [22:28] <timeless> ... that data should be considered same origin
# [22:28] <timeless> ... we think there should be a note in the spec
# [22:28] <timeless> ... to make clear that any operations on the Media element will be considered Same Origin
# [22:28] <timeless> ... and I just need to do the work
# [22:28] <timeless> paulc: sounds like a proposal
# [22:28] <timeless> ... you'll write it up?
# [22:28] <timeless> adrianba: it's assigned to me, i will
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# [22:29] <timeless> paulc: we're waiting on adrianba to resolve this bug
# [22:29] <timeless> s/to/in order to/
# [22:29] <paulc> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21703
# [22:29] <timeless> acolwell: this is non-contentious, i just need to add the text
# [22:29] <timeless> ... I just need to add `unrestricted` and then resolve FIXED
# [22:29] <paulc> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21796
# [22:29] <timeless> acolwell: also pretty trivial
# [22:29] <timeless> ... there's an issue box in the spec right now
# [22:30] <timeless> ... "we need to define error codes from append"
# [22:30] <timeless> ... but it isn't clear what we need to return
# [22:30] <timeless> ... we'll remove this until we get implementation experience
# [22:30] <timeless> paulc: so this is LATER?
# [22:30] <timeless> acolwell: no, i need to remove text pending implementation experience
# [22:30] <timeless> adrianba: the spec calls for a Simple Event to be fired
# [22:31] <timeless> ... which has no way to convey additional information
# [22:31] <timeless> ... we included this issue in our original submission
# [22:31] <timeless> ... about thinking about a way to provide additional information about the error
# [22:31] <timeless> ... we got this far w/o finding a need for it
# [22:31] <timeless> ... so we propose to remove it
# [22:31] <timeless> ... the note is asking for consumers to explain what they'd need/why
# [22:32] <timeless> ... right now we just fire an event to say there was an error
# [22:32] <timeless> ... and then we stop
# [22:32] <timeless> acolwell: sometimes the error will be reported via XHR
# [22:32] <timeless> paulc: 21796 will be resolved FIXED by removing the issue box
# [22:32] <paulc> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20901
# [22:33] <timeless> adrianba: we talked about this on the call a couple of weeks ago
# [22:33] <timeless> ... this bug was originally filed because of the need
# [22:33] <timeless> ... when you're supporting transport streams
# [22:33] <timeless> ... to indicate if an Append() is based on where you left off
# [22:33] <timeless> ... or resetting to a different timestamp
# [22:34] <timeless> ... and the solution was to modify Abort() to indicate why you're stopping
# [22:34] <timeless> ... to indicate if an Append() is a continuation
# [22:34] <timeless> ... this combined with other changes
# [22:34] <timeless> ... means that ultimately we found ourselves in a situation where
# [22:34] * Travis timeless: You've got a Quadro NVS3100M, try nVidia's site: http://www.nvidia.com/object/quadro-notebook-win8-win7-64bit-311.50-whql-driver.html
# [22:34] <timeless> ... even for formats w/ embedded timestamp information
# [22:34] <timeless> ... you wouldn't be able to do an overlapping or out of order fragment
# [22:35] <timeless> ... w/o calling Abort()
# [22:35] <timeless> ... we found that when snapping to the latest snap test
# [22:35] <timeless> ... that the tests we built previously stopped working
# [22:35] <timeless> ... since the file format supported out-of-order fragments
# [22:35] <timeless> ... we weren't including checks to prevent that
# [22:35] <timeless> ... we think this is a valuable part of the spec
# [22:35] <timeless> ... thus this solution for transport streams was imposing an extra burden
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# [22:36] <timeless> ... on formats that didn't require this capability
# [22:37] <timeless> ... ideally, formats that support out of order append
# [22:37] <timeless> ... would be required to take no additional steps
# [22:37] <timeless> acolwell: it's more about no ambiguity of steps
# [22:37] <timeless> ... in the transport case, it's unclear if it's a discontinuity or an out of order append
# [22:37] <acolwell> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/media-source/media-source.html#sourcebuffer-coded-frame-processing
# [22:37] * timeless travis (downloading)
# [22:38] <timeless> acolwell: step 7 here is the crux of the problem
# [22:38] <timeless> ... where we're detecting if the thing being appended is w/in a range of what was previously appended
# [22:38] <timeless> ... i'm guessing that when this got implemented
# [22:38] <timeless> ... which we haven't implemented in Chrome
# [22:38] <timeless> ... things broke because out-of-order was determined
# [22:38] <timeless> ... when it wasn't before
# [22:39] <timeless> ... we could make it optional for only transport streams only
# [22:39] <timeless> markw: make it required for transport streams
# [22:39] <timeless> ... i'd like to support adrianba 's proposal
# [22:39] <timeless> ... the absence of this is one of the many reasons that MPEG2 transport streams are a bad solution
# [22:39] <timeless> ... which is why other formats are better
# [22:39] <timeless> ... i was surprised that this arrived as a result of the MPEG2 transport stream
# [22:40] <timeless> ... if you need extra hoops for MPEG2 transport streams
# [22:40] <timeless> ... then add it to your list of extra hoops
# [22:40] <timeless> acolwell: does bob or the other cable people
# [22:40] <timeless> BobLund: the motivation for htis
# [22:40] <timeless> s/htis/this/
# [22:40] <timeless> ... this is a response to MPEG2 transport stream
# [22:40] <timeless> ... which has a
# [22:40] <timeless> acolwell: a discontinuity allows
# [22:40] <timeless> ... the timestamps to just shift
# [22:40] <timeless> ... you have to see the frame before
# [22:41] <timeless> ... if you do appends right on the boundary
# [22:41] <timeless> ... it's ambiguous if it's out-of-order or not
# [22:41] <timeless> ... the rule to fix this
# [22:41] <timeless> ... appends were assumed to always be contiguous
# [22:41] <timeless> ... if this happened, you always new the append was supposed to be adjacent
# [22:41] <adrianba> q?
# [22:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:41] <adrianba> q+
# [22:41] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [22:41] <timeless> ... the proposal is to make this only the case for transport streams
# [22:41] <timeless> ... for MPEG4-ISO and WebM
# [22:41] <timeless> ... there's no need
# [22:42] <timeless> ... the only effect would be that on transport streams, you'll have to call Abort() more often than for ISO/WebM
# [22:42] <timeless> BobLund: you'd have to call Abort() when it's discontinuous?
# [22:42] <timeless> acolwell: no, when you want to do an out-of-order append
# [22:42] <timeless> BobLund: is there a way to signal when there is a discontinuity
# [22:42] <timeless> ... strips will know that
# [22:42] <timeless> acolwell: i was under the impression that scripts wouldn't know
# [22:42] <timeless> ... in HLS you would
# [22:43] <timeless> BobLund: i think that's alright
# [22:43] <timeless> paulc: proposal is in
# [22:43] <timeless> ... in Section-3.5.7 Coded Frame Processing
# [22:43] <timeless> acolwell: i need to look
# [22:43] <timeless> ... i need to figure out exactly where
# [22:43] <timeless> ... i'll put a note saying that for transport streams, the behavior is slightly different
# [22:43] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [22:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:44] <timeless> adrianba: maybe we can agree here that we do want to change this model
# [22:44] <timeless> ... and make what's currently there not be a problem for formats that include timestamp data
# [22:44] <timeless> ... i have concerns that just changing step 7 to make XX a bit optional
# [22:44] <timeless> s/XX a bit/parts of it/
# [22:44] <timeless> ... using Abort() in this way seemed odd to me
# [22:44] <paulc> Step 7 in 3.5.7 Coded Frame Processing
# [22:44] <timeless> ... it doesn't feel like you're necessarily
# [22:44] <timeless> ... sometimes you call abort when you aren't aborting anything
# [22:45] <timeless> ... Abort() is normally for cancelling a pending append/remove
# [22:45] <timeless> ... here you're calling it outside of that to set some flag
# [22:45] <timeless> acolwell: i think there might be more that needs to change
# [22:45] <timeless> ... i think there's certain state
# [22:45] <timeless> ... Abort() allows us to reset state
# [22:45] <timeless> ... if we don't use Abort(), we'd need to figure out the pieces of the state
# [22:46] <timeless> adrianba: we could create a new method
# [22:46] <timeless> ... and have the bits move there
# [22:46] <timeless> ... and have it be a no-op for other formats
# [22:46] <timeless> acolwell: i think there are a couple of issues w/ how Abort() is being used
# [22:46] <timeless> ... we need to figure out the right separation
# [22:46] <timeless> paulc: do we know what we're going to do here
# [22:46] <adrianba> q?
# [22:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:47] <timeless> paulc: adrianba, you were asking if we need a different method?
# [22:47] <timeless> adrianba: i was saying i think it's more than making a part optional
# [22:47] <timeless> paulc: so, acolwell, it falls in your court to come up w/ a proposal
# [22:47] * timeless Travis failed again
# [22:47] <timeless> ... i believe that's the last one
# [22:47] <timeless> ... only other item for MSE is
# [22:47] <timeless> ... as we go to 0 bugs, do we feel we could do an LC?
# [22:48] <timeless> ... any time you do an LC, you have to ask "how long would that LC have to be?"
# [22:48] <timeless> chaals: 3 weeks is the absolute minimum
# [22:48] <timeless> ... longer specs should have more
# [22:48] <adrianba> q+
# [22:48] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [22:48] <timeless> paulc: between 3 and 6 weeks depending on size of spec
# [22:48] <timeless> ... it could be 6 months for some reason
# [22:48] <timeless> ... the TF can make a recommendation
# [22:48] <timeless> ... we'd do a CfC at the WG level
# [22:48] <timeless> ... do you have an idea of schedule
# [22:48] <timeless> ... this is April 23, will we reach 0 bugs in May?
# [22:48] <timeless> acolwell: yes
# [22:49] <timeless> paulc: anyone in the room think once we go to 0 bugs, we shouldn't go to LC?
# [22:49] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [22:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:49] <timeless> adrianba: i'd like to make a slightly different proposal
# [22:49] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
# [22:49] <timeless> ... historically trying to say we'll get to 0 bugs has been a good way to make things last a long time
# [22:49] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [22:49] <timeless> adrianba: my alternative proposal is to say
# [22:49] <timeless> ... what we've done in this group is
# [22:49] <timeless> ... "we believe we're getting close to a LC"
# [22:49] <timeless> ... we have work to go and resolve them
# [22:50] <timeless> ... now is the time for a Pre-LC for WG members
# [22:50] <timeless> ... to make sure they've looked through it
# [22:50] <timeless> ... and filed bugs
# [22:50] <timeless> ... if people file bugs after that deadline
# [22:50] <timeless> ... those don't block LC
# [22:50] <timeless> ... the point of LC is to get bugs from outside the WG
# [22:50] <timeless> ... but we're likely to get bugs from inside the WG
# [22:50] <chaals> q+ to say exclusion period means 90 days between LC and...
# [22:50] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [22:51] <timeless> ... we'd commit to resolve bugs filed before the deadline before going to LC
# [22:51] <timeless> ... and others as part of LC
# [22:51] <timeless> ack chaals
# [22:51] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say exclusion period means 90 days between LC and...
# [22:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:51] <timeless> chaals: shortening LC period doesn't necessarily help you
# [22:51] * Quits: kliehm (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949]")
# [22:51] <timeless> ... keep the patent exclusion period in mind
# [22:52] <timeless> janina: you can start the patent exclusion period sooner
# [22:52] <timeless> chaals: it's necessarily from LC
# [22:52] <timeless> acolwell: i'd like to do it as quickly as possible
# [22:52] <timeless> ... we made progress
# [22:52] <timeless> ... i came here a year ago and proposed this spec
# [22:52] <timeless> ... i'd like to keep this pace
# [22:52] <timeless> paulc: where's this in the Process document, chaals ?
# [22:53] <timeless> chaals: it's in the Patent Policy
# [22:53] <timeless> paulc: adrianba 's suggestion is good
# [22:53] <timeless> ... adrianba 's asking for
# [22:53] <timeless> ... Chairs to send out a notice to WG
# [22:53] <timeless> ... "we're getting close to wanting to go to LC in MSE"
# [22:54] <timeless> ... "we're declaring an X-week pre-LC period"
# [22:54] <timeless> ... "any bugs filed after that period will be dealt w/ during LC"
# [22:54] <timeless> ... it sounds like a 3-4 week period for the X-week
# [22:54] <timeless> ... i'll take an action to take an action to discuss that w/ my cochairs
# [22:54] <timeless> adrianba: yes
# [22:55] <timeless> s/pre-LC period/pre-LC period -- bugs filed during that period will be dealt with before LC/
# [22:55] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [22:55] <timeless> Topic: Encrypted Media Extensions (EME) (Media TF)
# [22:55] <timeless> paulc: the Accessibility people had a topic they wanted to discuss
# [22:56] <timeless> topic: [EME] Encouraging alternate media to be in the clear when primary media is encrypted (A11Y TF)
# [22:56] <timeless> paulc: would someone from A11Y TF like to introduce the topic?
# [22:56] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [22:56] <timeless> janina: sure
# [22:56] <timeless> ... the question is
# [22:56] <timeless> ... do we need to encrypt/drm protect/etc
# [22:57] <timeless> ... the various alternative kinds of media that supplement Video/Audio
# [22:57] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
# [22:57] <timeless> ... in the TF, we've canvased around the Group
# [22:57] <timeless> ... people who create Captions, Described Videos
# [22:57] <timeless> ... if you've read our documents, you'd know we're contemplated other alternative forms
# [22:57] <timeless> ... e.g. a parallel sign language track would cover more cases
# [22:57] <timeless> ... the question is that "does this need to be encrypted?"
# [22:57] <timeless> ... no one seems to really need that
# [22:58] <timeless> ... no one seems to have a UC/need for that
# [22:58] <timeless> ... then, if we go w/ unencrypted content
# [22:58] <chaals> q+ johnf
# [22:58] * Zakim sees johnf on the speaker queue
# [22:58] <timeless> ... how do we make sure that if you don't do so, you won't
# [22:58] <timeless> ... history shows that
# [22:58] <Mark_Vickers> q+
# [22:58] * Zakim sees johnf, Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
# [22:58] <timeless> ... once you can, people check the box to encrypt
# [22:58] <timeless> ... which presents accessibility issues
# [22:58] <timeless> ... which we should probably avoid unless you need to
# [22:58] <paulc> rrsagent prepare the minutes
# [22:58] <chaals> q+
# [22:58] * Zakim sees johnf, Mark_Vickers, chaals on the speaker queue
# [22:59] <markw> q+
# [22:59] * Zakim sees johnf, Mark_Vickers, chaals, markw on the speaker queue
# [22:59] <timeless> ... i'd like to ask johnf to speak
# [22:59] <timeless> ... i know he has a contrary view
# [22:59] <timeless> s/foliet/johnf/g
# [22:59] <timeless> johnf: the issue is
# [23:00] <timeless> ... not whether they can/we can
# [23:00] <timeless> ... but whether descriptive audio/descriptive text are encrypted
# [23:00] <timeless> ... they can be mixed in
# [23:00] <timeless> ... you have content A which is unencrypted
# [23:00] <timeless> ... but you have a secondary provider which might want to license additional content B
# [23:00] <chaals> q- later
# [23:00] * Zakim sees johnf, Mark_Vickers, markw, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:00] <timeless> ... and secure their additional content
# [23:01] <timeless> ... i'd like to tease this out w/ the technical guys
# [23:01] <timeless> ... to see if this were a problem
# [23:01] <timeless> ... if we have two streams from different CDMs
# [23:01] <timeless> ... like janina, it isn't like we have definitive answers
# [23:01] <timeless> ... but we have questions to the floor
# [23:01] <timeless> ack Mark_Vickers
# [23:01] * Zakim sees johnf, markw, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:01] <timeless> Mark_Vickers: we're talking about transport formats
# [23:01] <timeless> ... older formats
# [23:01] <timeless> ... captions in the older standards were in band
# [23:02] <timeless> ... if things were encrypted, it was all encrypted
# [23:02] <timeless> ... the import thing is
# [23:02] <timeless> ... not whether it's encrypted
# [23:02] <timeless> ... but whether it's brought out through the standard Text Track APIs
# [23:02] <timeless> ... then it doesn't matter if it's originally encrypted
# [23:02] <timeless> ... i don't believe we have a mandate in the spec that says you have to do that
# [23:02] <timeless> ... you have to make Tracks
# [23:02] <timeless> ... there's nothing that mandates that the stuff comes out
# [23:02] <adrianba> q?
# [23:02] * Zakim sees johnf, markw, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:02] <timeless> q?
# [23:02] * Zakim sees johnf, markw, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:03] <timeless> ack johnf
# [23:03] * Zakim sees markw, chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:03] <JF_> Q+
# [23:03] * Zakim sees markw, chaals, JF_ on the speaker queue
# [23:03] <timeless> ack markw
# [23:03] * Zakim sees chaals, JF_ on the speaker queue
# [23:03] <adrianba> q+
# [23:03] * Zakim sees chaals, JF_, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [23:03] <timeless> markw: for Netflix, we don't encrypt Captions tracks
# [23:03] <timeless> ... we don't see any reason to
# [23:03] <timeless> ... or reason why we'd need to in the future
# [23:03] <timeless> ... for this spec, i'd advocate not doing additional work
# [23:03] <timeless> ... w/o requirements
# [23:03] <timeless> ... i don't think we have support/needs for CDMs rendering captions
# [23:03] <timeless> ack chaals
# [23:03] * Zakim sees JF_, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [23:03] * Parts: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) (Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
# [23:03] <timeless> chaals: i filed a bug on EME
# [23:04] <timeless> ... for the case johnf outlined
# [23:04] * Parts: hober (~ted@public.cloak) (ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
# [23:04] <BobLund> q+
# [23:04] * Zakim sees JF_, adrianba, BobLund on the speaker queue
# [23:04] <joesteele> +q
# [23:04] * Zakim sees JF_, adrianba, BobLund, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [23:04] * Joins: hober (~ted@public.cloak)
# [23:04] <timeless> ... there are third party services that do captioning/description
# [23:04] <timeless> ... i know of services that do it
# [23:04] <paulc> Charles bug on tracks: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21741
# [23:04] <timeless> ... i can't think of a service that charges for it
# [23:04] <timeless> ... actually, no, i can.
# [23:04] <timeless> ... if they're charging, and if you have an encryption api
# [23:04] <timeless> ... i'd expect them to want to use it
# [23:05] <timeless> ... i'd expect the people wanting to help people w/ disabilities wouldn't be able to
# [23:05] <timeless> s/johnf/JF_/g
# [23:05] <timeless> ack JF_
# [23:05] * Zakim sees adrianba, BobLund, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [23:05] <timeless> JF_: because of the possibility of this ... that it could happen
# [23:05] <MarkS> q+ Janina
# [23:05] * Zakim sees adrianba, BobLund, joesteele, Janina on the speaker queue
# [23:05] <timeless> ... between a rock and a hard place
# [23:05] <timeless> ... if the answer is that if it's very easy, very difficult, or something between
# [23:05] <timeless> ... that would help weight what to do
# [23:05] <glenn> q+
# [23:05] * Zakim sees adrianba, BobLund, joesteele, Janina, glenn on the speaker queue
# [23:06] <timeless> ... if people say it's a 2 to fix (1..10), v. if it's a 8
# [23:06] <timeless> ... i'd like to understand how hard it'd be to fix
# [23:06] <timeless> ... i'm just concerned it's lingering out there
# [23:06] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [23:06] * Zakim sees BobLund, joesteele, Janina, glenn on the speaker queue
# [23:06] <timeless> adrianba: the reason we chose not to try to solve this problem in the first release
# [23:06] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [23:06] <timeless> ... was it wasn't entirely clear how we should try to think about this
# [23:06] <timeless> ... because of support for presenting video+audio frames
# [23:06] <timeless> ... typically a UA that would process encrypted captions
# [23:07] <timeless> ... would have to have access to the video/audio
# [23:07] <ddorwin> q+
# [23:07] * Zakim sees BobLund, joesteele, Janina, glenn, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [23:07] <timeless> s|video/audio|captions|
# [23:07] <joesteele> q-
# [23:07] * Zakim sees BobLund, Janina, glenn, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [23:07] <timeless> ... we have a bug 21569
# [23:07] <timeless> ... which talks about the consequence of having Encrypted data in the media element
# [23:07] <MarkS> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21569
# [23:07] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [23:08] <timeless> ... talks about not being able to read data from a <video> element
# [23:08] <Zakim> + +1.617.966.aaaa
# [23:08] <timeless> ... e.g. if you have encrypted <video> and you use the <canvas> draw api
# [23:08] <timeless> ... we have a bug to add info to the spec to highlight that case
# [23:08] <timeless> ... it puts the onus on the consuming api
# [23:08] <timeless> ... to handle cases beyond Cross-Origin
# [23:08] <timeless> ... to handle the error path when you don't have access to the media data
# [23:08] <timeless> ... in the absence of the api
# [23:09] <timeless> ... Text Tracks either work or don't
# [23:09] <timeless> ... if a particular app doesn't mind
# [23:09] <timeless> ... it could be seemless to the app
# [23:09] <timeless> ... an app could take in band encrypted captions
# [23:09] <timeless> ... apply it to the video
# [23:09] <timeless> ... but not make it available to the text track api
# [23:09] <paulc> q?
# [23:09] * Zakim sees BobLund, Janina, glenn, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [23:09] <glenn> q-
# [23:09] * Zakim sees BobLund, Janina, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [23:09] <timeless> ... the api could not work if the UA doesn't allow access
# [23:10] <timeless> ... i don't tihnk we need to provide for this explicitly in the spec
# [23:10] <timeless> ... once we gain more implementation experience
# [23:10] <timeless> JF_: you're talking about Text Tracks, what about Descriptive Audio
# [23:10] <timeless> adrianba: we believe we have support for multiple Audio streams
# [23:10] <timeless> JF_: in that UC, your video is encrypted w/ scheme A
# [23:11] <timeless> ... and your audio is encrypted w/ scheme B
# [23:11] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [23:11] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 1 new commit to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/f57d22e461085c6b27e05580ebbd1dcc8e72dd54
# [23:11] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg f57d22e ianh: [giow] (2) Add bitcoin: to the URL scheme whitelist, by request. It's more or less like mailto:....
# [23:11] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [23:11] <timeless> ... will that work
# [23:11] <timeless> chaals: and you don't see that's critical today
# [23:11] <timeless> adrianba: i don't think we need to change the spec to satisfy the requirements
# [23:11] <timeless> ack BobLund
# [23:11] * Zakim sees Janina, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [23:11] <timeless> BobLund: seems like there are 2 situations
# [23:11] <timeless> ... one is when the tracks are encrypted
# [23:11] <timeless> ... and one where they are not
# [23:12] <timeless> ... it seems like it's up to the CDM to handle embedded encrypted tracks
# [23:12] <timeless> ... for the non-encrypted case
# [23:12] * Quits: gbabula (~gbabula@public.cloak) (gbabula)
# [23:12] <timeless> ... it seems we need to specify how those are exposed by the UA
# [23:12] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [23:12] <timeless> ... the assumption is that normal audio/video tracks are made available in a standard way
# [23:12] <timeless> ... i don't think we can leave it up to the implementation to decide which tracks are available
# [23:12] <timeless> ack janina
# [23:12] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [23:13] <timeless> janina: back to JF_ 's point
# [23:13] * Joins: johnsim (~johnsim@public.cloak)
# [23:13] <timeless> ... i think we have a terminology concern here
# [23:13] <timeless> ... alternative media might be Audio, or Video, or Text Track
# [23:13] <timeless> ... not necessarily one or the other
# [23:13] <adrianba> q?
# [23:13] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [23:13] <timeless> ... both are possible
# [23:13] <timeless> ... how to make it visible
# [23:13] <adrianba> q+
# [23:13] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [23:13] <timeless> ... we ask for quite a lot in UA requirements
# [23:13] <timeless> ... we don't want to just make it visible
# [23:13] <timeless> ... we also want to control
# [23:13] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [23:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [23:13] <timeless> ... font color, background, size, portion of resource
# [23:14] <timeless> ... i'm really concerned if we start by worrying about encryption and what can/can't be exposed
# [23:14] <timeless> ... just because we might need it
# [23:14] <timeless> ... we're talking about the current version of the spec
# [23:14] <timeless> ... not the last version
# [23:14] <timeless> ... if we don't have demand for it
# [23:14] <mjs> q+
# [23:14] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba, mjs on the speaker queue
# [23:14] <timeless> ... why focus on it right now
# [23:14] <timeless> ... we have lots of requirements right now
# [23:14] <timeless> ... seems they're more important
# [23:14] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [23:14] * Zakim sees adrianba, mjs on the speaker queue
# [23:15] <adrianba> q- later
# [23:15] * Zakim sees mjs, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [23:15] <timeless> ddorwin: you're worrying that unencrypted text tracks might not be made available during encrypted playback
# [23:15] <timeless> ... i believe it's implied that they would be available
# [23:15] <timeless> ... i don't know how we can
# [23:15] <timeless> ... i think we should discourage encrypting these tracks
# [23:15] <timeless> ... the biggest concern is that it will be hard to be compatible w/ a lot of platforms
# [23:16] <timeless> ... if someone wants to encrypt, they can do out of band traps
# [23:16] <adrianba> q-
# [23:16] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [23:16] <timeless> ... and use WebCrypto for the same level of protections
# [23:16] <timeless> ack mjs
# [23:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:16] <timeless> mjs: question... maybe someone knows the answer
# [23:16] <timeless> ... maybe people who know more about media production
# [23:16] <timeless> ... in DRM production on Web today
# [23:16] <timeless> ... w/ plugin today
# [23:16] <timeless> ... are captions today encrypted?
# [23:17] <timeless> ... if they aren't encrypted today
# [23:17] <timeless> ... i'd think there's very little demand for HTML5 solutions
# [23:17] <timeless> q+ chaals
# [23:17] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [23:17] <JF_> Q+
# [23:17] * Zakim sees chaals, JF_ on the speaker queue
# [23:17] <CyrilRa> q+ CyrilRa
# [23:17] * Zakim sees chaals, JF_, CyrilRa on the speaker queue
# [23:17] <timeless> ... and perhaps not to be supported
# [23:17] <joesteele> q+
# [23:17] * Zakim sees chaals, JF_, CyrilRa, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [23:17] <timeless> BobLund: in encrypted transport of classic format
# [23:17] <timeless> ... it's encrpyted
# [23:17] <timeless> ... in other forms, it's likely not to be
# [23:17] <markw> q+
# [23:17] * Zakim sees chaals, JF_, CyrilRa, joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
# [23:18] <timeless> s/encrpyted/encrypted/
# [23:18] <timeless> s/BobLund/glenn/
# [23:18] <timeless> ... except for the third-party encryption case
# [23:18] <timeless> joesteele: when we have encrypted content
# [23:18] <timeless> ... we duplicate them and send them out of band in unencrypted form
# [23:19] * Joins: jgay (~jgay@public.cloak)
# [23:19] <timeless> ... on a world-wide basis, i'm not sure if everyone is doing this
# [23:19] <timeless> ack chaals
# [23:19] * Zakim sees JF_, CyrilRa, joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
# [23:19] <timeless> chaals: my impression is that there isn't a huge amount of alternative/extended content being encrypted
# [23:19] <timeless> ... a concern i have today
# [23:19] <timeless> ... is original UC
# [23:19] <timeless> ... the point of being able to encrypt content is that content providers have it as part of their business model
# [23:19] <timeless> ... it seems odd to say that a content provider has the right to do this
# [23:20] <timeless> ... but a disability provider doesn't have that right
# [23:20] <timeless> ... it seems back-ass-words way to do
# [23:20] <timeless> ack JF_
# [23:20] * Zakim sees CyrilRa, joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
# [23:20] <timeless> JF_: what chaals said
# [23:20] <timeless> ... that we don't have demand now is great
# [23:20] <timeless> ... but that door seems really wide open
# [23:20] <timeless> ... too often, A11Y is chasing after the bus has left
# [23:20] <timeless> ack CyrilRa
# [23:20] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
# [23:21] <timeless> CyrilRa: at XXX we're aiming at supporting all 3 modes
# [23:21] <timeless> ... embedded in the video
# [23:21] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [23:21] <CyrilRa> sorry about that… We are embedding CC within video
# [23:21] <CyrilRa> hence being encrypted
# [23:22] <timeless> chaals: and thus encrypting them?
# [23:22] <adrianba> that assumes that it isn't feasible to do this - my assertion was that the spec doesn't need to change to support this - if there are specific changes someone thinks is needed then that should be proposed concretely
# [23:22] <adrianba> q?
# [23:22] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
# [23:23] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [23:23] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [23:23] * hober tantek: vf trpxb cynaavat ba vzcyrzragvat n EBG13 PQZ?
# [23:23] <ddorwin> CyrilRa: What container?
# [23:23] <timeless> joesteele: w/ our DRM, we support encrypted text data in the streams
# [23:23] <timeless> ... judging on the number of bugs in the area
# [23:23] <CyrilRa> MPEG2-TS and MP4
# [23:23] <timeless> ... i don't think anyone is using it
# [23:23] <timeless> ... because i don't think my code is bug free
# [23:23] <CyrilRa> using HLS and HDS
# [23:24] <timeless> ... people use 608/708 data, captions encrypted because stream is encrypted
# [23:24] <timeless> paulc: so you're doing the opposite
# [23:24] <timeless> ... of markw
# [23:24] <ddorwin> CyrilRa: AFAIK: You don't need to encrypt the all streams in a fragmented MP4.
# [23:24] <timeless> joesteele: we're not doing it
# [23:24] <timeless> paulc: someone using your information could do it
# [23:24] <timeless> joesteele: correct
# [23:25] <timeless> ... if we were to provide an API for the CDM to extract that information
# [23:25] <ddorwin> (Not sure about HDS's requirements.)
# [23:25] <timeless> ... then i don't see the point in encrypting it
# [23:25] <paulc> q?
# [23:25] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [23:25] <timeless> ... someone said you could use WebCrypto and it would be just as secure
# [23:25] <timeless> ... i'd agree w/ that
# [23:25] <timeless> ack markw
# [23:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:25] <timeless> markw: we don't encrypt the captions and don't see the reason to
# [23:25] <timeless> ... for audio/video assistive content
# [23:25] <timeless> ... i don't think we have many
# [23:26] <joesteele> s/I don't think anyone is using it/I am not sure it is being used/
# [23:26] <timeless> ... for captions, if you really want full DRM, you'd be asking the CDM to decrypt and render
# [23:26] <timeless> ... that would be a big additional requirement on the spec
# [23:26] <timeless> ... the only encrypted caption is whether they're embedded in the transport stream
# [23:26] <timeless> ... MPEG2 brings a number of hoops
# [23:27] <timeless> ... if you're given a bunch of hoops and implementing APIs in CDMs
# [23:27] <timeless> ... or just pulling it out yourself
# [23:27] <adrianba> q+
# [23:27] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [23:27] <timeless> ... I know which makes more sense
# [23:27] <timeless> ... the APIs don't exist in protected media pipelines today
# [23:27] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [23:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:27] <timeless> adrianba: agree w/ what markw just said
# [23:27] <timeless> ... i don't think anything in the spec today prevents someone from doing it
# [23:28] <timeless> ... i don't think there's anything necessary to add to enable this capability
# [23:28] <markw> s/pulling it out yourself/pulling the captions out at the sending side/
# [23:28] * Quits: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:28] <timeless> ... if anyone has a concrete issue not covered by the spec
# [23:28] <timeless> ... i'd like to have it raised
# [23:28] <timeless> paulc: as the queue is empty, i'll move along
# [23:29] <timeless> ... janina, and JF_, you asked for opinions on the current spec, and from content providers
# [23:29] <timeless> ... I think we've come close to meeting your initial goal
# [23:29] <timeless> JF_: hearing it isn't a huge fire
# [23:29] <timeless> ... i'd like to say thanks to the technical guys for lettings us talk through this issue
# [23:29] <timeless> janina: i'm good
# [23:29] <timeless> paulc: i'd like to remind people of what adrianba said
# [23:29] <timeless> ... when you're working in a TF environment
# [23:29] <timeless> ... the best thing to do is give it a concrete bug
# [23:30] <timeless> ... with a pointer saying "this is a bug here, please fix it"
# [23:30] <timeless> ... i'd like to encourage the A11Y TF to treat them the same way as you
# [23:30] <timeless> ... and i'd like to praise chaals for raising a bug to consider the issue
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# [23:31] <timeless> [ Coffee break ]
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# Session Close: Wed Apr 24 00:00:00 2013

The end :)