/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2013-04-24 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 24 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:07] <paulc> test
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# [00:08] <timeless> topic: Encrypted Media Extensions (EME) (Media TF)
# [00:08] <timeless> paulc: two items
# [00:08] <timeless> ... deep dive into EME bugs
# [00:08] <timeless> ... - take an hour or so
# [00:08] <timeless> ... take a look at the situation of FPWD of EME
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# [00:13] <MichaelC> q+ Daniel
# [00:13] * Zakim sees Daniel on the speaker queue
# [00:14] <timeless> adianba: we'd like to start with consistent interoperable errors
# [00:15] <timeless> ... here is a UC for sites to report error conditions back to their hosts
# [00:15] <timeless> ... XXX
# [00:15] * timeless bug url?
# [00:15] <ddorwin> adrianba: Call to action: Review the content protection systems you work with, and collect the error codes that you might want to work with and report those.
# [00:16] <timeless> ddorwin: we don't necessarily need to start w/ the existing bugs
# [00:16] <arun> q+ Austin
# [00:16] * Zakim sees Daniel, Austin on the speaker queue
# [00:16] <paulc> bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21798
# [00:16] <timeless> ... not trying to stuff bugs - round peg squareholes
# [00:17] <timeless> paulc: 21795
# [00:17] * Joins: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak)
# [00:17] <timeless> ... 16737
# [00:17] <arun> q- Austin
# [00:17] * Zakim sees Daniel on the speaker queue
# [00:17] <timeless> ... 16617
# [00:17] <ddorwin> s/stuff bugs/force error codes/
# [00:17] <ddorwin> s/squareholes/square holes/
# [00:17] * timeless adrianba : i didn't do a good job of scribing, i was trying to push a working video driver on my laptop
# [00:17] * Joins: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak)
# [00:17] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: Daniel_Austin, PayPal
# [00:17] <timeless> q?
# [00:17] * Zakim sees Daniel on the speaker queue
# [00:18] <timeless> ack d
# [00:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:18] <timeless> ... i think we might want to provide a uniform set of status codes
# [00:18] <timeless> ... so users and sites can do diagnostics
# [00:18] <timeless> ... working w/ the WebPerf WG
# [00:18] <timeless> ... i posed a list of status codes to their group
# [00:18] <timeless> s/posed/posted/
# [00:19] <timeless> ... now's a good time to try to get them synced
# [00:19] <adrianba> q?
# [00:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:19] <timeless> paulc: has anyone else from the TF looked at this?
# [00:19] <timeless> ... I assume one of the parts of the TF will meet next week
# [00:19] <timeless> ... adrianba did you have a time table?
# [00:19] <timeless> adrianba: we have lots of bugs
# [00:19] <timeless> chaals: yesterday would be great
# [00:20] <joesteele> q+
# [00:20] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [00:20] <timeless> [ crickets and popcorn ]
# [00:20] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [00:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:20] <timeless> joesteele: one of the error codes in there
# [00:20] <timeless> ... service error
# [00:20] <timeless> ... i shouldn't have gone through the existing errors
# [00:20] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [00:20] <timeless> ... but reported the actual errors we use
# [00:20] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
# [00:20] <timeless> ... one distinction in errors i'd like to make
# [00:21] <timeless> ... is customer service errors
# [00:21] <timeless> ... and cdm errors
# [00:21] <timeless> ... an end user error v. a customer's license server triggered failure
# [00:21] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: WebPerf errors don't distinguish that
# [00:21] <timeless> joesteele: we could distinguish errors by domain
# [00:21] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: great suggestion
# [00:21] <timeless> ... i don't want an incomplete set of status codes coming out of perf
# [00:22] <paulc> q+
# [00:22] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [00:22] <timeless> ack paulc
# [00:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:22] <timeless> paulc: surely WebPerf isn't trying to make the one-ring-to-rule-them-all of error codes
# [00:22] <timeless> ... this is about the distributed web
# [00:22] <timeless> ... we want a spec that says these are some error codes
# [00:22] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: we recommend the IANA registry for HTTP status codes
# [00:23] <timeless> ... we proposed an additional set of error codes for DNS errors
# [00:23] <timeless> ... and SSL errors
# [00:23] * Joins: virginie_ (~virginie@public.cloak)
# [00:23] <timeless> ... and a set of errors for when a user abandons a page
# [00:23] <timeless> ... we haven't taken into account adrianba 's classes
# [00:23] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: i don't want errors scattered across other specs
# [00:23] <adrianba> q+
# [00:23] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [00:24] <ddorwin> Currently being displayed: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2013Apr/att-0007/WebRequestStatusCodes4.html
# [00:24] <timeless> paulc: what about "HTML spec" errors?
# [00:24] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: if you'd like them available to the WebPerf NavigationTiming spec
# [00:25] <markw> q+
# [00:25] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
# [00:25] <arun> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/NavigationTiming/Overview.html
# [00:25] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: WebPerf WG has published specs for letting apps read counters from the browser
# [00:25] <timeless> ... navigation timings
# [00:25] <timeless> ... resource timings
# [00:25] <timeless> ... a new spec for error logging
# [00:26] <timeless> ... [for when something doesn't load from a CDN]
# [00:26] <Zakim> - +1.617.966.aaaa
# [00:27] <timeless> paulc: what's the link to the logging spec
# [00:27] <timeless> ... and how does it relate to what other WGs are trying to do
# [00:27] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: i'll post a link to the spec
# [00:27] <timeless> ... it doesn't have much beyond the error codes
# [00:27] <timeless> paulc: does this api simply return an error?
# [00:28] <ddorwin> Web Perf Error Logging spec: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/3298bdfd617b/specs/ErrorLogging/Overview.html
# [00:28] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: it returns a list of error codes, and the objects that returned the error, and when
# [00:28] <timeless> ... there are two cases
# [00:28] <timeless> ... one is page load
# [00:28] <timeless> ... and another is for when the browser crashes
# [00:29] <timeless> ... we proposed a limited subset of the data
# [00:29] <timeless> ... that would be persisted
# [00:29] <timeless> ... that would be returned to the source site later
# [00:29] <timeless> ... that case is much more difficult
# [00:29] <timeless> ... we've decided not to specify a specific persistence mechanism
# [00:29] <adrianba> q?
# [00:29] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
# [00:29] <timeless> paulc: i'll end this discussion now
# [00:29] <timeless> ... we'll give you 15 mins tomorrow
# [00:30] <timeless> ... to give an intro to this spec and what it would mean to the HTML5 UA
# [00:30] <timeless> ... we have time in tomorrow's schedule
# [00:30] <timeless> ... i won't disagree w/ you
# [00:30] <timeless> ... that if the implications are close to what i said
# [00:30] <timeless> ... that this will have implications to what a UA would have to implement
# [00:30] <timeless> ... we'll talk at the end of today or tomorrow morning
# [00:30] <timeless> ... I tried to move of 21798
# [00:30] <markw> ack markw
# [00:30] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [00:30] <timeless> ... and joesteele spoke on CDM
# [00:30] <timeless> ... which led to confusion on CDN
# [00:31] <adrianba> q-
# [00:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:31] <timeless> ... so, to 20668
# [00:31] <timeless> s/68/88/
# [00:31] <joesteele> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20688
# [00:31] <timeless> adrianba: i think we need to start w/ a bit of history, unfortunately
# [00:31] <timeless> ... we made a bunch of changes over time to the spec
# [00:31] <timeless> ... that brought us to the situation
# [00:32] <timeless> ... in our original submission to the WG
# [00:32] <timeless> ... we had this notion that during the acquisition of a license
# [00:32] * chaals hears "sit right back and I'll tell you a tale..."
# [00:32] <timeless> ... the CDM could force the browser to fire a message to the browser
# [00:32] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [00:32] <timeless> [ long complicated and roundabout ]
# [00:32] * Joins: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak)
# [00:32] <timeless> adrianba: it's in the bug
# [00:33] <timeless> ... comment 2 in the bug says what i said
# [00:33] <timeless> ... we modified the API to use a more object oriented approach
# [00:33] <timeless> ... this means that, the way the messages/events are fired
# [00:33] <timeless> ... is a little different than we intended at the beginning
# [00:33] <timeless> ... we talked about it a few times on the call
# [00:33] <timeless> ... i summarized how we were thinking about the model
# [00:33] <timeless> ... but it isn't what's described in the spec
# [00:33] <timeless> ... this value is about one of the events
# [00:34] <timeless> ... keep "KeyAdded", be more precise about what it's for
# [00:34] <timeless> ... in my model, KeyAdded means "license acquisition is complete"
# [00:34] * darobin RRSAgent, pointer?
# [00:34] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-irc#T22-32-25
# [00:34] <timeless> ... think about it like progress events, it's like "load event"
# [00:34] <timeless> ... we're done loading, and you can move on
# [00:34] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [00:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [00:34] <timeless> adrianba: KeyAdded isn't saying that a key is added
# [00:35] <timeless> ... but that the conversation w/ CDM is finished
# [00:35] <timeless> ... ddorwin said how do you deal w/ license renewal?
# [00:35] <timeless> ... sure you ended initial conversation
# [00:35] <timeless> ... but later during playback, you need to refresh the license
# [00:35] <timeless> ... and i suspect markw is going to comment as well
# [00:35] <timeless> ... and final comment on this, this model is related to some of the other bugs
# [00:35] <timeless> ... bug 19208
# [00:36] <timeless> ... - asks the question about when KeyMessage should be fired
# [00:36] <timeless> ... bug 16553
# [00:36] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19208
# [00:36] <timeless> ... - asks the question about a NeedKey event should be fired [an event before this whole process]
# [00:36] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16553
# [00:36] <timeless> ... resolving this lifecycle is the largest unanswered question of the spec today
# [00:36] <timeless> ... that's the setup
# [00:37] <timeless> ... i was hoping people would weigh in w/ other questions we'd need to answer
# [00:37] <timeless> ... or suggestions about how we solve this
# [00:37] <timeless> q?
# [00:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:37] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@public.cloak)
# [00:37] <markw> q+
# [00:37] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [00:37] <timeless> ack markw
# [00:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:37] <timeless> markw: i wonder whether we should take the approach
# [00:37] <ddorwin> q+
# [00:37] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [00:37] <timeless> ... of defining an explicit state
# [00:37] <timeless> ... and defining a variable w/ the state
# [00:37] <timeless> ... [a state machine]
# [00:37] <timeless> ... i think we could try to make that more concrete
# [00:37] <timeless> ... not sure what the states would be
# [00:38] <timeless> ... maybe 3, maybe 4
# [00:38] <timeless> ... i think that would make it much easier to talk about these things
# [00:38] <timeless> ddorwin: even if we had a state for a session, there may be multiple message transfers in progress
# [00:38] <timeless> ... between a CDM and a License server
# [00:38] <adrianba> q+
# [00:38] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [00:38] <timeless> ... you could have two renewal messages for different keys
# [00:39] <timeless> ... if you had a session to represent communication between a CDM and a License server
# [00:39] <markw> q+
# [00:39] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
# [00:39] <timeless> ... you could have two in progress concurrently
# [00:39] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [00:39] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
# [00:39] <adrianba> q- later
# [00:39] * Zakim sees markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [00:39] <timeless> ack markw
# [00:39] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [00:39] <timeless> markw: on that point
# [00:39] <timeless> ... i think we could take the approach of "what are all things a CDM could want to do"
# [00:39] <timeless> ... or "what is the simple state model that makes sense - and make CDMs work w/ that model"
# [00:40] <timeless> ... if the CDM wants to do two things at once, it constructs a message w/ two things in it
# [00:40] <ddorwin> q+ to ask What specifically does having a "completed" state gain us?
# [00:40] * Zakim sees adrianba, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [00:40] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [00:40] <timeless> ... instead of us imagining everything a CDM might want to do
# [00:40] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [00:40] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [00:40] <joesteele> q+
# [00:40] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [00:41] <timeless> adrianba: i think we need to support two or more pending transactions to license services
# [00:41] <timeless> ... no constraint on count to license server or transactions to a license server
# [00:41] <timeless> ... during decoding, you could encounter a need for another key from another license server
# [00:42] <timeless> ... we do need to have multiple conversations w/ a license server in flight at one time
# [00:42] <timeless> ... at the beginning
# [00:42] <timeless> ... at least, at some point, i had in mind that a session represented that communication
# [00:42] <timeless> ... you'd have one per conversation with a license service
# [00:42] <timeless> ... i think one of the problems is that we've slightly overloaded what we mean
# [00:42] <markw> q+
# [00:42] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
# [00:42] <timeless> ... with a license service session
# [00:42] <timeless> ... and think we may need to break it into multiple models
# [00:42] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [00:42] <Zakim> ddorwin, you wanted to ask What specifically does having a "completed" state gain us?
# [00:43] <ddorwin> What specifically does having a "completed" state gain us?
# [00:43] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
# [00:43] <timeless> ddorwin: you completed
# [00:43] <timeless> ... and send multiple messages
# [00:43] <timeless> ... what do we get from that
# [00:43] <ddorwin> Maybe states for an "initialized" and "has key(s)" would be sufficient?
# [00:43] <virginie_> q?
# [00:43] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
# [00:43] <ddorwin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20689
# [00:43] <timeless> ... there's a bug about being told when you have nothing else to send to the server
# [00:44] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [00:44] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [00:44] <timeless> joesteele: if i have a session open
# [00:44] <timeless> ... and i've done my initial exchange w/ a license server
# [00:44] <timeless> ... i do one, two, three exchanges
# [00:44] <johnsim> q+
# [00:44] * Zakim sees markw, johnsim on the speaker queue
# [00:44] <timeless> ... and then my license expires, maybe this is key renewal
# [00:44] <timeless> ... the CDM knows i need to renew it
# [00:44] <timeless> ... can it just send a request
# [00:44] <timeless> ... is the app ready to accept that?
# [00:45] <timeless> ... if i have multiple sessions going on
# [00:45] <timeless> ... they can all be in this state at the same time
# [00:45] <adrianba> q+
# [00:45] * Zakim sees markw, johnsim, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [00:45] <timeless> ... they're all independent as far as the application is concerned
# [00:45] <timeless> ack markw
# [00:45] * Zakim sees johnsim, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [00:45] <timeless> markw: to adrianba 's concern
# [00:45] <timeless> ... about multiple sessions
# [00:45] <timeless> ... and key messages
# [00:45] <timeless> ... we left it open for different CDMs to do it different ways
# [00:45] <timeless> ... you could file NeedKey
# [00:45] <timeless> ... or ...
# [00:46] <timeless> ... I think it's best to just pick a model
# [00:46] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [00:46] <timeless> ddorwin: i think with CreateSession we said there was one way
# [00:46] <timeless> ack johnsim
# [00:46] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [00:46] <timeless> johnsim: it's important that the states the CDM goes through
# [00:46] <timeless> ... that the application needs to know about
# [00:46] <timeless> ... are signaled/ known about by the application
# [00:46] <timeless> ... w/o a state diagram, it's hard for the application
# [00:47] <timeless> ... i think that's the missing piece
# [00:47] <timeless> ... wrt how a session is defined
# [00:47] <timeless> ... i think you can't let the way a session is defined be CDM specific
# [00:47] <timeless> ... because then an application won't be able to have a CDM agnostic behavior
# [00:48] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
# [00:48] <timeless> paulc: you're saying something like what markw said
# [00:48] <timeless> ... abstract to the simplest number of cases
# [00:48] <timeless> ... and then a CDM may have to change its behavior to match our model
# [00:48] <timeless> johnsim: three things
# [00:48] <timeless> ... 1. define the states any CDM will go through that an app needs to know about
# [00:48] <timeless> ... - CDMs can go through states an app doesn't care about
# [00:49] <joesteele> q+
# [00:49] * Zakim sees adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [00:49] <timeless> ... for any state an app needs to know about, document it in a generic way
# [00:49] <timeless> ... providing events for the application
# [00:49] <timeless> ... 2. define it in such a way, that two different CDMs by different providers
# [00:49] <timeless> ... behave the same way wrt event pattern
# [00:49] <ddorwin> q+ to ask What states do we need/care about? Do we need states if the application knows exactly what it needs to do for a given event? Rephrasing what I asked earlier, do we need one of those states to be "closed"/"ended"?
# [00:49] * Zakim sees adrianba, joesteele, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [00:49] <timeless> s/three/two/
# [00:50] <timeless> paulc: if we take it at face value that you're right, johnsim
# [00:50] <timeless> ... then we need to know which states the App needs to know about
# [00:50] <timeless> ... what are those states?
# [00:50] <timeless> johnsim: the current spec doesn't define those states
# [00:50] <timeless> ... as much as they're implicit in the event model
# [00:50] <timeless> paulc: and that was markw 's point
# [00:50] <timeless> ... if we defined the points, it would help
# [00:50] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [00:50] * Zakim sees joesteele, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [00:50] <timeless> adrianba: i like markw 's suggestion of having a state variable
# [00:51] <timeless> ... with clearly defined values
# [00:51] <timeless> ... and i think ddorwin 's suggestion of having
# [00:51] <timeless> ... what i described as Finished
# [00:51] <timeless> ... actually indicate "reached steady state"
# [00:51] <joesteele> q-
# [00:51] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [00:51] <timeless> ... the proposal i sort of hinted at in the bug
# [00:51] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
# [00:51] <timeless> ... was to provide a set of events based on progress events
# [00:51] <timeless> ... idea would be, an event fires
# [00:51] <timeless> ... to indicate that the session was initialized
# [00:52] <timeless> ... "load start" equivalent
# [00:52] <timeless> ... what we have for KeyMessage would be the equivalent of "progress"
# [00:52] <timeless> ... and we would fire an equivalent of "loaded" for when KeyAdded was in the proposal
# [00:52] <timeless> ... to indicate that the session was established
# [00:52] <timeless> ... you may still get future key messages for renewal
# [00:52] <timeless> ... but the initial conversation was done
# [00:53] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [00:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [00:53] <timeless> adrianba: i'm not sure we'd need to be explicit about Expired or some other reason for a Renewal
# [00:53] <adrianba> q?
# [00:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [00:53] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [00:53] <Zakim> ddorwin, you wanted to ask What states do we need/care about? Do we need states if the application knows exactly what it needs to do for a given event? Rephrasing what I asked
# [00:53] <Zakim> ... earlier, do we need one of those states to be "closed"/"ended"?
# [00:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:53] <markw> q+ to say how keyrelease fits into this model
# [00:53] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [00:54] <timeless> ddorwin: it's currently stateless
# [00:54] <timeless> ... you get a key message
# [00:54] * Quits: Mark_Vickers (~Mark_Vickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [00:54] <timeless> ... get something from the server, pass it back
# [00:54] <timeless> ... works for initialized
# [00:54] <timeless> ... Otherwise, i like adrianba 's states
# [00:54] <timeless> adrianba: one reason i think we need something like loaded
# [00:54] <ddorwin> What states do apps need/care about? Do we need states if the application knows exactly what it needs to do for a given event? Rephrasing what I asked earlier, do we need one of those states to be "closed"/"ended"? If not, then just responding to events may be sufficient.
# [00:54] <timeless> ... is one of the bugs i called out before
# [00:55] * timeless ddorwin : if you q+ to say something, then Zakim 's reminder to say it appears in the logs
# [00:55] <timeless> q?
# [00:55] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [00:55] <timeless> ack markw
# [00:55] <Zakim> markw, you wanted to say how keyrelease fits into this model
# [00:55] * Quits: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [00:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:56] <timeless> markw: if we define a bunch of states
# [00:56] <timeless> ... and discover that the states are implicit from the message sequence
# [00:56] <joesteele> q+
# [00:56] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [00:56] <timeless> ... we could leave them in or rip them out
# [00:56] <timeless> ... adrianba mentioned keyrelease
# [00:56] <timeless> ... in that state, if the CDM supports "proof of key release"
# [00:56] <timeless> ... then it's in the position to give you that proof
# [00:56] <timeless> ... and we define what happens for that state transition
# [00:56] <ddorwin> q+
# [00:56] * Zakim sees joesteele, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [00:57] <timeless> paulc: doing a state transition model is important
# [00:57] <timeless> ... so that people can understand what's going on
# [00:57] <timeless> markw: discovering if the implicit thing works or not
# [00:57] <timeless> ... is to be explict
# [00:57] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [00:57] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [00:57] <timeless> joesteele: adrianba 's point
# [00:57] <timeless> ... there's one state needed that isn't implicit
# [00:57] <timeless> ... if a CDM already has a particular key w/o key exchange
# [00:58] <timeless> ... then you want the application to not get a keyrequest message
# [00:58] <timeless> s/not get/not wait to get/
# [00:58] <ddorwin> My summary of (my understanding of) Adrian's proposal:
# [00:58] <ddorwin> States: Uninitialized, initialized ("loadstart"), keymessage ("progress"), keyadded replacement ("loaded")
# [00:58] <ddorwin> I think the last three might be events. The first state is probably implicit.
# [00:58] <ddorwin> The keyadded replacement could be useful for a case where the CDM immediately initializes a session with existing material.
# [00:59] <timeless> ddorwin: the events in quotes are video equivalents
# [00:59] <timeless> ... keyadded is already going to be renamed
# [00:59] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [00:59] <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, CyrilRa
# [00:59] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [01:00] <timeless> paulc: we need to decide if someone is going to write a proposal
# [01:00] <adrianba> q?
# [01:00] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [01:00] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
# [01:00] <timeless> ... someone writes a state diagram and shows if it maps
# [01:00] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [01:00] <timeless> ... and if not ...
# [01:00] <ddorwin> ack ddorwin
# [01:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:00] <timeless> ... will someone do this?
# [01:00] <timeless> [ paulc lists a bunch of bug numbers ]
# [01:00] <timeless> paulc: there's probably a bug on key release
# [01:00] <timeless> ... adrianba, ddorwin, do you know the next steps?
# [01:01] <timeless> adrianba: it feels like we've made progress in this discussion
# [01:01] <timeless> ... i think the editors have enough to get together
# [01:01] <timeless> ... to make a proposal back to the group
# [01:01] <johnsim> q+
# [01:01] * Zakim sees johnsim on the speaker queue
# [01:04] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
# [01:04] <timeless> ack johnsim
# [01:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:04] <timeless> johnsim: one of the things, you already have a key
# [01:04] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [01:04] <timeless> ... e.g. from a store
# [01:04] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [01:04] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [01:04] <timeless> ... there could be a case where the app wants to force the CDM to make an acquisition
# [01:04] <timeless> ... a CDM could make a License server request
# [01:04] <timeless> ... but CDMs can also make a disk protected key
# [01:04] <adrianba> q+
# [01:04] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [01:04] <timeless> ... some applications might want to force the CDM to get a new key from the License server
# [01:04] <timeless> ... if you support getting a key from the disk
# [01:04] <timeless> ... you need to give the app a way to specify if it permits using a key from the disk
# [01:04] <joesteele> q+
# [01:04] * Zakim sees adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [01:04] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
# [01:04] <timeless> adrianba: i'd like johnsim to file a new bug on this
# [01:04] <timeless> ... to make sure we don't lose it
# [01:04] <timeless> ... proposal i will then make in that bug
# [01:04] <timeless> ... maybe when the event fires to indicate that the session is loaded
# [01:05] <timeless> ... it's possible we want to provide some indication of how it got to that point
# [01:05] <timeless> ... e.g. if it did it through cached key material
# [01:05] <timeless> ... the application could do something
# [01:05] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [01:05] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [01:05] <ddorwin> alternatively, tag the keymessage to indicate "already in progress"
# [01:05] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [01:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:05] <timeless> joesteele: specific case is renewing a set of entitlements before going offline
# [01:05] <markw> How about this: http://www.websequencediagrams.com/cgi-bin/cdraw?lz=dGl0bGUgQ0RNIFN0YXRlIFByb2dyZXNzaW9uCgpub3RlIG92ZXIgQ0RNOiBVbmluaXRpYWxpemVkAA8OLCBBcHA6IHRpbWUgcGFzc2VzAC0QSQAzCGFlZApDRE0tPgAtBWtleW1lc3NhZ2UKQXBwLT4AZAV1cGRhdGUoKQpvcHQAAyllbgCBBQ86IHJlYWR5AIEUFXBsYXliYWNrACQ-AD0QAIE4CmNsb3NlKCkAgjIQABIFAIFpFiAoa2V5IHJlbGVhc2UpAIF5FA&s=napkin
# [01:05] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
# [01:05] <timeless> ... if i'm about to go offline
# [01:06] <timeless> ... i thought about offline content long ago
# [01:06] <timeless> ... and decided not to file it
# [01:06] <timeless> ... because offline playback in the browser wasn't a UC under discussion at the time
# [01:06] <timeless> paulc: offline entitlements are different, or just cover more time?
# [01:06] <timeless> joesteele: cover more time
# [01:07] <timeless> paulc: you'll be disconnected, and can't get a renew
# [01:07] <timeless> ... you'd say "give me one now", and it will last longer
# [01:07] <timeless> johnsim: even in the live video case
# [01:07] <timeless> ... or OnDemandVideo
# [01:07] <timeless> ... you're playing content from the web
# [01:07] <timeless> ... you're allowing for local key storage
# [01:07] <timeless> ... the main reason why i felt it needed to be addressed
# [01:08] <timeless> ... i knew in general, such a UC is very common in DRM systems
# [01:08] <paulc> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16540
# [01:08] <timeless> ... we shouldn't restrict what we're doing in EME to what we're trying to do now for OnDemandVideo
# [01:08] <timeless> adrianba: this is one joesteele wanted us to talk about
# [01:08] <timeless> joesteele: my concern with this
# [01:08] <timeless> ... the bug is confusing to read now
# [01:09] <timeless> ... about how you're supposed to use the key system
# [01:09] <timeless> ... 1. can we roll capabilities into it
# [01:09] <timeless> ... it was split out, and we decided not to do that in the key system
# [01:09] <timeless> ... 2. verisioning
# [01:09] <timeless> ... UC was to request a specific version of a CDM
# [01:09] <timeless> ... a particular version of a CDM may have a feature an earlier one did not
# [01:09] * Parts: jgay (~jgay@public.cloak)
# [01:09] <timeless> ... a particular version of a CDM may have been breached
# [01:09] <timeless> ... want to avoid using those
# [01:09] <timeless> s/want/- want/
# [01:10] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [01:10] <timeless> ... i was thinking we'd register com.adobe.access and com.adobe.access.v{n}
# [01:10] <timeless> ... so we could request the latest one and the generic one
# [01:10] <timeless> ... does that make sense?
# [01:10] <adrianba> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#key-system
# [01:10] <timeless> paulc: is versioning mention in the bug?
# [01:10] <timeless> ddorwin: you have to look at the spec
# [01:11] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [01:11] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 2 new commits to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/f57d22e46108...31bbb5f68cbf
# [01:11] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg e2287ae ianh: [e] (0) Try to clarify use of the term 'expose' in the WebIDL sense....
# [01:11] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg 31bbb5f ianh: [e] (0) Remove redundant requirements....
# [01:11] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [01:11] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [01:11] <adrianba> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#dom-istypesupported
# [01:11] <timeless> paulc: your proposal was appending something to example com.example.somesystem.1 and com.example.somesystem.1_5
# [01:12] <timeless> paulc: this is obscure being linked to this particular bug
# [01:12] <timeless> adrianba: i pasted another link that talks about this
# [01:12] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
# [01:12] * Quits: virginie_ (~virginie@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [01:12] <timeless> ... joesteele was talking about isTypeSupported()
# [01:12] <timeless> ... the original design is that
# [01:12] <timeless> ... you could make a request isTypeSupported( com.example.somesystem )
# [01:12] <timeless> ... that would return true if the general system is supported
# [01:12] <timeless> ... if no, you wouldn't interrogate further
# [01:13] <timeless> ... if yes, you could ask about v1, v1.5
# [01:13] <timeless> ... i think the question raised in this bug is
# [01:13] <timeless> ... do we need to add
# [01:13] <timeless> ... text to the spec that describes this more
# [01:13] <timeless> ... gives greater guidelines
# [01:13] <timeless> ... is this pattern something that's actually neede
# [01:13] <timeless> s/neede/needed/
# [01:13] <timeless> ... or is it something down to the CDM?
# [01:13] <timeless> ... it's unlikely that you'd write code that follows this pattern in a generic way
# [01:14] <timeless> ... since the capabilities of different versions will be different across different systems
# [01:14] <timeless> paulc: joesteele, is the system powerful enough to use in the way you want to use
# [01:14] <timeless> joesteele: yes, it's probably overkill than what we'd want
# [01:14] <timeless> ... we could live w/ an explicit string match
# [01:14] <timeless> ... having browsers do this is more than we'd need
# [01:14] <timeless> chaals: this code assumes linear progression
# [01:14] <timeless> ... and you want hasMinimumVersion()
# [01:15] <timeless> ... is that likely to be a pattern?
# [01:15] <timeless> paulc: i'll take anything after version 3?
# [01:15] <timeless> chaals: if IE3
# [01:15] <timeless> adrianba: and the people that do, we're trying to shoot
# [01:16] <timeless> ... it's no coincidence that this is tied to the other bug about capability detection
# [01:16] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [01:16] <timeless> ... no coincidence that we'd park that bug until we decided on what we need to detect
# [01:16] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [01:16] <timeless> ... maybe we can say we don't need this sophisticated approach
# [01:17] <timeless> ... maybe we can push toward feature detection instead of particular versions
# [01:17] <timeless> chaals: did you discover trying to push people to feature detection
# [01:17] <timeless> ... because people did version detection?
# [01:17] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
# [01:17] <timeless> ... are we opening up a way for authors to make mistakes early?
# [01:17] <timeless> adrianba: maybe
# [01:17] <timeless> ... i'd rather try to catch it early than try to predict and get it wrong
# [01:17] <timeless> chaals: i think i'd like to do the same
# [01:18] <timeless> paulc: enough discussion on 16540?
# [01:18] <timeless> ... sounds like simple string matches
# [01:18] <timeless> ... if we aren't doing capabilities
# [01:18] <timeless> ... after that, you can use another mechanism
# [01:18] <timeless> ... next is 19009
# [01:18] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19009
# [01:19] <timeless> adrianba: we discussed this on a call
# [01:19] <timeless> ... the minutes didn't really
# [01:19] <timeless> ... describe a conclusion
# [01:19] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@public.cloak)
# [01:19] <timeless> paulc: these are the minutes in comment 6?
# [01:19] <timeless> adrianba: yes, but it points to a not useful, but lengthy discussion
# [01:19] <timeless> ... conclusion i think we reached
# [01:19] <timeless> ... was that we should add a note to the spec
# [01:20] <timeless> ... that some implementations might require the media keys be attached to a media element before the event sequence would take place on a session
# [01:20] <timeless> ... this is somewhat tangentially related to the original bug
# [01:20] <timeless> ... i think that conclusion means that we're ok to
# [01:20] <timeless> ... follow the pattern we have right now
# [01:20] <timeless> ... make it so that implementations may throw an exception if they don't support media keys being shared across multiple elements
# [01:20] <timeless> ... that's likely for initial implementations
# [01:21] <timeless> ... important thing is that we need to add a note about requiring attachment
# [01:21] <timeless> paulc: action?
# [01:21] <timeless> adrianba: action is to edit the spec w/ the note
# [01:21] <timeless> ... just wanted to clarify that this is the next action
# [01:21] <timeless> ... and give people a chance to comment if they disagree
# [01:21] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [01:21] * Joins: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak)
# [01:21] <timeless> paulc: any last things to address?
# [01:21] <timeless> ddorwin: 20335
# [01:22] <ddorwin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20335
# [01:22] <timeless> ... canPlayType
# [01:22] <timeless> ... supports "", "maybe", "probably"
# [01:22] <timeless> ... initially in MSE, we have isTypeSupported
# [01:22] <timeless> ... should we also return boolean?
# [01:22] <timeless> ... does anyone support canPlayType()s 3 states, none of which are true
# [01:22] <timeless> ... anyone have an opinion?
# [01:22] <johnsim> q+
# [01:22] * Zakim sees johnsim on the speaker queue
# [01:23] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
# [01:23] <timeless> paulc: if we change it to a boolean, the probably case goes away?
# [01:23] <timeless> [ maybe ]
# [01:23] <timeless> paulc: what's the UC for Probably?
# [01:23] <timeless> q
# [01:23] <timeless> s/q//
# [01:23] <timeless> q?
# [01:23] * Zakim sees johnsim on the speaker queue
# [01:23] <adrianba> q+
# [01:23] * Zakim sees johnsim, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [01:24] <timeless> ack johnsim
# [01:24] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [01:24] <chaals> q+ bobl
# [01:24] * Zakim sees adrianba, bobl on the speaker queue
# [01:24] <timeless> johnsim: Probably/Maybe concepts
# [01:24] <chaals> q- adrianba later
# [01:24] * Zakim sees bobl on the speaker queue
# [01:24] <timeless> ... is ...
# [01:24] <chaals> q+ adrianba
# [01:24] * Zakim sees bobl, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [01:24] <timeless> ... you can't tell from media util you play it whether you can really play it
# [01:24] <timeless> ... it isn't just searching for attributes
# [01:24] <timeless> ... i don't see a case where any uncertainty should reside
# [01:24] <timeless> ... as to whether or not content is decryptable by that key system
# [01:24] <joesteele> q+
# [01:24] * Zakim sees bobl, adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [01:25] <timeless> ... you don't know if the license server will honor the request for the key
# [01:25] <timeless> ddorwin: we pass in the container as well
# [01:25] <timeless> ack BobLund
# [01:25] * Zakim sees bobl, adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [01:25] <timeless> ack b
# [01:25] * Zakim sees adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [01:25] <timeless> BobLund: canPlayType
# [01:25] <timeless> ... probably is meant to say "does the UA support mime type"
# [01:25] * Joins: virginie_ (~virginie@public.cloak)
# [01:26] <timeless> ... whether UA can decrypt it is irrelevant to canPlayType
# [01:26] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [01:26] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [01:26] <timeless> adrianba: i wanted to describe two alternatives
# [01:26] <timeless> ... spec has isTypeSupported as a boolean
# [01:26] <timeless> ... you use this method to answer
# [01:26] <timeless> ... "does the UA support decrypting content in this format using this content protection system"
# [01:26] <timeless> ... if the UA says "probably" or "maybe"
# [01:26] <timeless> ... and you add in the content type
# [01:27] <timeless> ... and key system
# [01:27] <timeless> ... might you get the same answer as canPlayType
# [01:27] <timeless> ... otoh, supporting canPlayType and isTypeSupported
# [01:27] <timeless> ... then a bool would work
# [01:27] * timeless runs around in circles
# [01:27] <timeless> ... what does an app do differently if it sees maybe or probably?
# [01:28] <timeless> ... it's just going to try to play the content
# [01:28] <adrianba> q?
# [01:28] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [01:28] <timeless> ... if you know definitively that it won't work, you probably try the next content
# [01:28] <timeless> ... but if you know it's potentially supported
# [01:28] * Joins: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
# [01:28] <timeless> ... then you probably just try to play it
# [01:28] <ddorwin> There are probably less random formats to deal with in EME as well.
# [01:28] <timeless> joesteele: we'd probably prefer a boolean
# [01:28] <timeless> ... yes it may fail
# [01:28] <timeless> ... it may mean it can't play that instance, but just that instance
# [01:28] <timeless> paulc: hearing a bool pref
# [01:29] * Joins: danielfi_ (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
# [01:29] * Quits: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [01:29] <timeless> ... anyone can give us an example of why it shouldn't be a boolean
# [01:29] <timeless> joesteele: you ask about a mime type
# [01:29] <timeless> paulc: and i can give you a mislabeled stream
# [01:29] <timeless> ... ddorwin you asked about this type
# [01:29] <timeless> ... did i get you an answer?
# [01:30] <timeless> ... and don't say "probably" or "maybe"
# [01:30] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [01:30] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [01:30] <timeless> Topic: First Public Working Draft status
# [01:31] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Feb/0123.html
# [01:31] <timeless> paulc: we asked about whether something was in scope
# [01:31] <timeless> ... eventually ruled it was in scope
# [01:31] <timeless> ... whether FPWD contained enough to be implemented interoperably
# [01:32] <timeless> ... we asked for clear and specific bug reports in Bugzilla by Feb 15
# [01:32] <timeless> ... once that was complete, we were going to seek answer from editors on how to proceed
# [01:32] <timeless> ... process bar for FPWD is fairly low
# [01:32] <timeless> ... when we reevaluate request to publish
# [01:32] <timeless> ... we'd only consider things based on bugs
# [01:32] <timeless> ... but no requirement of reaching 0 bugs
# [01:33] <timeless> ... TF received approximately 15 bugs
# [01:33] <timeless> ... in the window
# [01:33] <timeless> ... i provided a summary on the Media TF
# [01:33] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Apr/0089.html
# [01:33] <timeless> ... my first email goes over the history
# [01:33] <timeless> s/15/13/
# [01:34] <timeless> ... it's a bit hard to give concise status of bugs
# [01:34] <timeless> ... it's hard to handle REOPENed
# [01:35] <timeless> ... the respondent disagreed with being able to take a document to FPWD with bugs open
# [01:35] <timeless> ... some respondents have commented on everything as "i disagree"
# [01:35] <timeless> ... which makes it hard to have a dialog
# [01:35] <timeless> s/dialog/dialogue/
# [01:35] <timeless> ... for 20944
# [01:35] <timeless> ... - we left it open and proposed to add a SOTD
# [01:35] <timeless> ... i think we did this for 2 or 3
# [01:35] <timeless> adrianba: 3
# [01:35] <timeless> paulc: we believe there's technical merit in the comment
# [01:35] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [01:36] <timeless> ... but we don't believe it should stop us from going to FPWD
# [01:36] <timeless> ... we resolved several as WONTFIX
# [01:36] <timeless> ... i included link to bug and editor's response explaining why
# [01:36] <timeless> ... - which typically includes the link to the minutes
# [01:36] <timeless> ... here's one w/ needsinfo
# [01:36] <timeless> ... - which was reopened w/ no new info
# [01:36] <timeless> ... a couple were resolved worksforme
# [01:36] <timeless> ... - we took an appropriate action
# [01:37] <timeless> ... 20965 and 20966 were SOTD items
# [01:37] <timeless> ... one we resolved as a duplicate
# [01:37] <timeless> ... and one as later
# [01:37] <timeless> ... several of these bugs have been reopened by the correspondent on a regular basis
# [01:37] <timeless> ... even if the correspondent didn't change the status of the bug
# [01:38] <timeless> ... all of these bugs are attempts to characterize why not to do EME in the HTML WG
# [01:38] <timeless> ... there are more filed after the bug-window
# [01:38] <timeless> ... there are probably 4 or 5 more
# [01:38] <timeless> ... the people against this work being done in the WG
# [01:38] <timeless> ... when their current arguments fail
# [01:38] <timeless> ... they find new arguments
# [01:39] <timeless> paulc: the TF + editors have responded to chairs
# [01:39] <timeless> ... based on the bugs in the window to Feb 15
# [01:39] <timeless> ... i think it's germane for the chairs to review if the bugs have been dealt w/ adequately
# [01:39] <timeless> ... and decide if we can replay the CfC
# [01:39] <timeless> ... or decide if the document can be published
# [01:40] <timeless> rubys: i don't think CfC is the right step
# [01:40] <timeless> ... we don't need Consensus per process
# [01:40] <plh> q+
# [01:40] * Zakim sees joesteele, plh on the speaker queue
# [01:40] <timeless> ... having read the bugs, i don't think we have questions
# [01:40] <timeless> paulc: i want to be fair to my cochairs and apologize to the TF
# [01:40] * Parts: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) (divya)
# [01:40] <timeless> ... this has been on my plate for a while
# [01:40] <timeless> ... i told rubys and mjs that i sent this after lunch
# [01:41] <timeless> ... the appropriate step is for chairs to take this under advisement and report back to the WG
# [01:41] <timeless> ... mjs, there's a lot of reading
# [01:41] <timeless> ... do any of the 3 editors of EME want to comment?
# [01:41] <timeless> ... did i summarize this accurately?
# [01:41] <timeless> adrianba: yes, good summary
# [01:41] <timeless> ... we call out 3 of the bugs in SOTD
# [01:41] <timeless> ... two issues:
# [01:42] <timeless> ... 1. degree to which spec supports interop between implementations
# [01:42] <timeless> ... 2. issue around privacy considerations
# [01:42] <timeless> ... from discussions we've gone through these bugs
# [01:42] <timeless> ... i think we've made progress on privacy
# [01:42] * Quits: danielfi_ (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [01:42] <timeless> ... my suggestion for privacy is to add a section to the spec which is privacy considerations for CDMs
# [01:42] <timeless> ... people in WG asked if the current API would support some privacy related situations
# [01:42] <timeless> ... some of the cases I believe are already handled
# [01:43] <timeless> ... beyond guidance to CDMs
# [01:43] <timeless> ... which we'd add in an informative way
# [01:43] <timeless> ... does anyone see API changes necessary for privacy aspects
# [01:43] <timeless> paulc: has that direction been reflected in the bug at all?
# [01:43] <timeless> adrianba: no, we need to update the bug
# [01:43] <timeless> paulc: that would be useful, if you could do that post-facto to this discussion
# [01:43] <plh> q?
# [01:43] * Zakim sees joesteele, plh on the speaker queue
# [01:43] <timeless> ... chairs will use my summary as the response to the CfC
# [01:44] <timeless> ... and we'll get back to editors+TF as soon as possible
# [01:44] <timeless> q- joesteele
# [01:44] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [01:44] <timeless> ack plh
# [01:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:44] <timeless> plh: if i heard chairs correctly
# [01:44] <timeless> ... we may not have a new CfC
# [01:44] <timeless> rubys: statement i made, not a chair statement
# [01:44] <timeless> plh: my concern is if it will surprise the group if we don't have a CfC
# [01:44] <timeless> mjs: we have past precedent for CfC to publish a WD
# [01:45] <timeless> ... and having done a good faith effort, we said "with these addressed, it was ok to publish"
# [01:45] <timeless> ... if we wanted to follow W3 process
# [01:45] <timeless> ... we could have a formal vote
# [01:45] <timeless> [ paulc reads from previous chairs CfC response ]
# [01:46] <timeless> rubys: i sent an email on the 24th
# [01:46] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [01:46] <timeless> ... ~consensus is not a requirement for publication~
# [01:46] <wseltzer> q+
# [01:46] * Zakim sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
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# [01:46] <timeless> steve: are chairs saying
# [01:47] <timeless> ... there will be a FPWD
# [01:47] <timeless> rubys: still deciding
# [01:47] <timeless> steve: and that decision will not be a CfC?
# [01:47] <timeless> rubys: my input is it probably will not be
# [01:47] <timeless> paulc: it won't be public
# [01:47] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [01:47] <timeless> ack wseltzer
# [01:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:47] <timeless> wseltzer: Wendy Seltzer
# [01:47] <timeless> ... noting that the response to several of the bugs
# [01:48] <timeless> ... ~CDMs are out of scope for this document~
# [01:48] <timeless> ... several seem to be things people are complaining about
# [01:48] <timeless> ... are things required of CDMs
# [01:48] <timeless> ... but not things above them
# [01:48] <adrianba> q+
# [01:48] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [01:48] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak)
# [01:48] <markw> q+
# [01:48] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
# [01:48] <timeless> ... would it be ok for them to file bugs asking for CDMs to be brought into scope
# [01:48] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Apr/0053.html
# [01:48] <timeless> ... this is requiring activity but not specifying it
# [01:48] * Joins: mjs_ (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [01:48] <mjs_> q+
# [01:48] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw, mjs_ on the speaker queue
# [01:48] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [01:48] * Zakim sees markw, mjs_ on the speaker queue
# [01:49] <timeless> paulc: i'd like to thank chaals for his leg-work
# [01:49] <timeless> [ applause ]
# [01:49] <timeless> adrianba: it's true there were a number of bugs
# [01:49] <timeless> ... commenting on CDMs being out of scope of the EME spec
# [01:49] <timeless> ... it's true that this is the design of the EME spec
# [01:49] <timeless> ... EME is designed to abstract away CDMs
# [01:49] <timeless> ... to provide a common api for CDMs
# [01:50] <timeless> ... and provide a common api for that abstraction
# [01:50] <timeless> ... W3 decided that such an API was within scope for the WG
# [01:50] <timeless> ... EME spec is a solution for the problem
# [01:50] <timeless> ... it isn't the only way to solve the problem
# [01:50] <timeless> ... someone who believes the full capabilities should be w/in scope
# [01:50] <timeless> ... may write the spec
# [01:50] <timeless> ... to try to address a spec that by design isn't in scope
# [01:50] <timeless> ... is essentially saying throw away the spec and start again
# [01:50] <timeless> ack markw
# [01:50] * Zakim sees mjs_ on the speaker queue
# [01:51] <timeless> markw: we could add something to say what we mean by CDMs being out of scope
# [01:51] <timeless> ... we don't define the APIs that the CDM might support
# [01:51] <timeless> ... it has key messages, we talk about a state machine
# [01:51] <timeless> ... we say CDM is out of scope
# [01:51] <timeless> ... but we define a bit about how you talk to it
# [01:51] <chaals> q+
# [01:51] * Zakim sees mjs_, chaals on the speaker queue
# [01:51] <timeless> ... it sounds like defining part of CDM
# [01:51] <timeless> ack mjs_
# [01:51] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [01:51] <timeless> mjs_: re: what is exactly required for CDMs
# [01:51] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [01:52] <timeless> ... i think there's one bug left open
# [01:52] <timeless> ... with an issue note in the spec
# [01:52] <timeless> ... 20944
# [01:52] <timeless> ... EME sure do more to ensure CDM level interop
# [01:52] <timeless> ... there's been a lot of discussion in that bug
# [01:52] <timeless> ... many of the other bugs were roundabout ways to get at the same issue
# [01:52] <timeless> ... i think it's best of have one bug for that matter
# [01:52] <timeless> ... ---
# [01:52] <timeless> mjs_: a more procedural issue
# [01:52] <timeless> ... 21016
# [01:52] <timeless> ... ClearKey
# [01:53] <timeless> ... - i don't care much about the bug actually
# [01:53] <timeless> ... our usual approach for LATER is to use only for "not this current version of this spec"
# [01:53] <adrianba> q+
# [01:53] * Zakim sees chaals, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [01:53] <timeless> ... i assume we'll have implementation experience by CR
# [01:53] <timeless> ... i'd propose keeping the bug open
# [01:53] <timeless> ... and having an implementation marker
# [01:54] <timeless> q?
# [01:54] * Zakim sees chaals, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [01:54] <timeless> ack chaals
# [01:54] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [01:54] <timeless> chaals: instead of writing an entire spec from scratch
# [01:54] <timeless> ... they could propose a modified version of the spec
# [01:54] <timeless> ... which modifies the scoping
# [01:54] <timeless> ... if you modify the proposal for a tower
# [01:54] <timeless> ... to have the tower have an antenna on top
# [01:54] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [01:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:55] <timeless> adrianba: could you start from EME and add in a CDM
# [01:55] <timeless> ... and remove the abstraction of CDM
# [01:55] <timeless> ... sure
# [01:55] <timeless> ... is that different from starting from scratch?
# [01:55] <timeless> ... i dunno
# [01:55] <timeless> paulc: you guys are making it hard for me to recess by 5pm
# [01:55] <timeless> chaals: if you want to make a smaller change to the scope
# [01:55] <timeless> ... then the difference becomes more interesting
# [01:55] <timeless> paulc: no one has tried to ask about an extension spec to an extension spec
# [01:55] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [01:56] <timeless> adrianba: mjs_ made the point that there's still a bug about part of this
# [01:56] <timeless> ... many of the bugs essentially raised the same point
# [01:56] <timeless> ... about interop
# [01:56] <timeless> ... between UAs
# [01:56] <timeless> ... and it's a valid issue
# [01:56] <wseltzer> q?
# [01:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:56] <timeless> ... the bugs wseltzer mentioned where CDMs were indicated as out of scope
# [01:56] <timeless> ... asked for essential design changes
# [01:56] <timeless> ... my position is
# [01:56] <timeless> ... if i were to solve for those bugs
# [01:56] <timeless> ... i probably wouldn't start w/ this spec
# [01:57] * wseltzer some of those were design-related bugs, others were W3C-process related
# [01:57] <timeless> paulc: thank you Josh_Soref for scribing
# [01:57] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [01:57] <timeless> paulc: do we need to retrace our steps with you?
# [01:57] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [01:58] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: everything is locked at 5pm
# [01:58] <timeless> paulc: and we're in a different room?
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# [01:58] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: yes, you'll be escorted to the new room like today
# [01:58] <timeless> ... please keep your badges
# [01:58] <timeless> ... there's a reception tomorrow
# [01:58] <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
# [01:58] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [01:59] <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [01:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, timeless
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# [02:00] <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [02:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [03:06] <Zakim> Attendees were CyrilRa, Paypal, Art_Barstow, +1.617.966.aaaa
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# [18:09] <timeless> RRSAgent, pointer
# [18:09] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-irc#T16-07-19
# [18:09] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda#Agenda_April_24
# [18:09] <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
# [18:09] * @trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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# [18:09] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
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# [18:09] <@trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
# [18:09] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
# [18:09] <@trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [18:09] <@trackbot> Date: 24 April 2013
# [18:09] * timeless changes topic to 'http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda#Agenda_April_24'
# [18:10] <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
# [18:10] <timeless> scribe: Josh_Soref
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# [18:10] <timeless> scribenick: timeless
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# [18:10] <timeless> s/John Foliot/John_Foliot/
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# [18:11] <SteveF> zakim, present+
# [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand 'present+', SteveF
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# [18:11] <timeless> s/zakim, present+//
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# [18:11] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [18:11] <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, timeless
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# [18:12] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [18:12] <timeless> chair: paulc, rubys, mjs
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# [18:13] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [18:13] <timeless> present+ edoyle
# [18:13] <timeless> s/edoyle/glenn/
# [18:13] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [18:18] <timeless> s/Weekly Teleconference/Interim Face to Face/
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# [18:19] <MarkVickers> present+ MarkVickers
# [18:19] <timeless> topic: Miscellaneous topics (including polyglot)
# [18:20] <timeless> eliot: i want to thank the chairs for adding Leif as an editor
# [18:20] <timeless> ... that's been a huge help
# [18:20] <timeless> ... we're down to three open bugs on polyglot
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# [18:20] <timeless> ... we expect to hit 0 bugs in the next week or two
# [18:20] <timeless> ... given the history of discussion around polyglot
# [18:20] <timeless> ... especially around normative spec and around UCs
# [18:20] <timeless> ... i thought it'd be opportune to throw out
# [18:21] <timeless> ... the idea that we're getting close to a CfC about Status of Polyglot
# [18:21] <adrianba> Present+ adrianba
# [18:21] <timeless> ... to ask the people assembled if there are areas of discussion
# [18:21] <timeless> ... and recommendations for the spec before we get to that point
# [18:21] <timeless> ... the three open bugs
# [18:21] <timeless> ... one is to drop XHTML from the title of the document
# [18:21] <timeless> ... leif has made a first edit on that
# [18:21] <timeless> ... we're waiting for a response if any before resolving that as fixed
# [18:22] <paulc> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19925
# [18:22] <timeless> ... my understanding is he was waiting to see if there was any response to his subtle change
# [18:22] * plh [we're still waiting on more power in the room and getting the polycom fixed]
# [18:22] <paulc> Leif's direction: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19925
# [18:22] <timeless> paulc: the comment 16 has what he intends to do
# [18:22] <timeless> eliot: and later he talks about
# [18:22] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19925#c16
# [18:22] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:22] * Zakim sorry, plh, I don't know what conference this is
# [18:23] * Zakim sees on irc: adrianba, MarkVickers, MichaelC, jeff, BobLund, glenn, Bin_Hu, chaals, plh, edoyle, SteveF, eliot, JF, ddorwin, Zakim, yosuke, acolwell, aizu, paulc, a1zu, darobin,
# [18:23] * Zakim ... MarkS, tobie, JonathanJ, Jungkee, wonsuk, LeifHalvardSilli, bryan
# [18:23] <plh> zakim, this will be html
# [18:23] <Zakim> ok, plh; I see HTML_CG(F2F)12:00PM scheduled to start 21 minutes ago
# [18:23] <timeless> paulc: larry was giving arguments for keeping it
# [18:23] <timeless> eliot: two paragraphs earlier "i'll try to incorporate more comments"
# [18:23] <paulc> Title: «Polyglot Markup: A robust profile of the HTML5 vocabulary»
# [18:23] <timeless> ... the other assigned to leif is 21174
# [18:23] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21174
# [18:24] <timeless> ... he opened the bug
# [18:24] <timeless> ... and said what he's planning on doing
# [18:24] <timeless> ... and he said he'll work on this in the near future
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# [18:26] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21174
# [18:26] <timeless> paulc: item 6 here says something about the HTML5 spec
# [18:27] * chaals notes that Maciej arrives earlier than expected
# [18:27] * timeless it says vioLOATion not violation :)
# [18:27] * timeless LeifHalvardSilli:
# [18:27] <paulc> Leif: When will bugs 21174 and 19925 be processed?
# [18:28] <eliot> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20197
# [18:28] <timeless> eliot: on this one, i need to speak w/ rubys
# [18:28] <adrianba> s/Leif:/Leif,/
# [18:28] <timeless> ... he said rubys described Polyglot as an applicable spec according to HTML5's terminology
# [18:29] <timeless> ... you had a should/could/had-to be an applicable spec
# [18:29] <timeless> rubys: i believe i made that remark
# [18:29] <timeless> ... i didn't necessarily intend for a change to the spec
# [18:29] <timeless> eliot: in my understanding
# [18:29] <timeless> ... there's no required definition of Polyglot as an applicable spec
# [18:29] <timeless> ... so we'll be down to two bugs
# [18:30] <timeless> paulc: can we find the results of the first CfC?
# [18:30] <timeless> ... was it in December?
# [18:30] <timeless> ... - trying to take HTML, canvas, microdata to CR?
# [18:31] <timeless> eliot: it was right after TPAC
# [18:31] <timeless> paulc: we decided we'd do a Preference Poll after we got Objections
# [18:31] <timeless> ... we wanted to get down to 0 bugs
# [18:31] <timeless> rubys: we assigned a new editor, that helped
# [18:32] <timeless> paulc: you, rubys, built the survey
# [18:33] <timeless> rubys: if it's Editor's intent to persue REC, then yes
# [18:33] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:33] <timeless> ... you need the Poll
# [18:33] <paulc> Rationale for keeping on Recommendation Track: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/PolyglotRecommendationRationale
# [18:33] * Joins: rubys2 (~rubys2@public.cloak)
# [18:34] <rubys2> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/polyglot-status-preference-poll/
# [18:34] <timeless> paulc: it's possible the rationales need to be updated
# [18:34] <timeless> rubys2: the preference poll is not yet opened
# [18:35] <timeless> ... it references two rationales
# [18:35] <paulc> Statement why Polyglot should be informative: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Nov/0006.html
# [18:35] <timeless> paulc: before we run this poll
# [18:35] <timeless> ... i think we should make sure both rationales still stand
# [18:36] <timeless> ... chairs should ask the rationale authors to see if they should be updated
# [18:36] <timeless> rubys2: one of the rationale statement editors is here
# [18:36] <timeless> paulc: could you and he, eliot, check to see if it needs to be updated?
# [18:36] <timeless> paulc: this is a case where we will ACTUALLY COUNT HEADS
# [18:36] <timeless> ... every for and against actually counts
# [18:36] <timeless> rubys2: BY PERSON
# [18:37] <timeless> paulc: i'm not sure what the preference poll actually says
# [18:37] <timeless> ... "Survey is by individual, not organization, simple majority wins"
# [18:37] <timeless> ... since this is a process, not technical
# [18:37] <timeless> paulc: we don't need to ask for additional statements
# [18:37] <timeless> ... we're assuming this is the definitive list
# [18:38] <timeless> rubys2: once we get LeifHalvardSilli and eliot updating their statement
# [18:38] <timeless> ... and spec
# [18:38] <timeless> ... we will ask to see if anyone else wants to expand on hsivonen's comment
# [18:39] <timeless> paulc: does the survey point at the Polyglot document?
# [18:39] <timeless> ... it doesn't appear to
# [18:39] <timeless> rubys2: that (first paragraph/sentence of survey question) would be the place to do it
# [18:39] <timeless> paulc: when we go to 0 bugs
# [18:39] <timeless> ... and do a survey
# [18:40] <timeless> ... if the doc isn't stable
# [18:40] <timeless> ... people bitch
# [18:40] <timeless> eliot: ok, no changes during the survey
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# [18:40] <timeless> paulc: people say the document keeps changing underneath me
# [18:40] <timeless> rubys2: Am updating it now
# [18:40] <timeless> s/Miscellaneous topics (including polyglot)/Polyglot document/
# [18:40] <timeless> paulc: assuming Poll result is "Normative"
# [18:40] <timeless> ... then that would mean we'd publish as CR
# [18:41] <timeless> ... the reason some people think it shouldn't be normative because it's a subset
# [18:41] <timeless> ... we'd need exit-criteria for/from CR
# [18:41] <timeless> ... editors need to think about those
# [18:41] <timeless> ... but we won't process it until after the Poll
# [18:41] <timeless> ... just as a forewarning of how to get out of CR
# [18:41] <timeless> ... and the period of review
# [18:41] <rubys2> poll has been updated
# [18:42] <timeless> topic: Plans for Heartbeat publications
# [18:43] <timeless> darobin: in terms of heartbeats, we haven't published in a little while
# [18:43] <timeless> ... we need to issue a bunch of new documents
# [18:43] <timeless> ... those we plan to publish as simple heartbeats
# [18:43] <timeless> ... are HTML5.1 with simple changes
# [18:43] <timeless> ... Canvas 2D level 2 with simple changes
# [18:43] <timeless> ... and Differences between HTML4.01 and HTML5
# [18:44] <timeless> ... that part isn't really contentious
# [18:44] <timeless> ... after that, we have documents we plan to discontinue
# [18:44] <timeless> ... documents which we'll publish as NOTE
# [18:44] <timeless> ... one is <main> which we're folding into HTML5
# [18:44] <timeless> ... - indicate that
# [18:44] <timeless> ... one is HTML5 for web authors
# [18:44] <timeless> ... - few authors actually use them
# [18:44] <timeless> ... we've been in touch with the webplatform.org people
# [18:45] <timeless> ... who might have a use for pieces
# [18:45] <timeless> ... other parts may be folded into HTML5
# [18:45] <timeless> s/we're folding into HTML5/we've folded into HTML5.1 and are folding into HTML5.0/
# [18:45] <timeless> paulc: this sets precedent that an extension spec
# [18:45] <timeless> ... if it gets folded into some HTML version
# [18:46] <timeless> ... then we'd publish the extension spec as a WG NOTE with a SOTD indicating that we folded it into the HTML spec
# [18:46] <timeless> darobin: to make it clear what happened
# [18:46] <timeless> paulc: plh, do WG NOTEs show up directly on TR page?
# [18:46] <timeless> plh: they do
# [18:46] <timeless> paulc: template is different?
# [18:46] <timeless> darobin: it says "NOTE" in the corner
# [18:47] <plh> example of discontinued item: http://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/
# [18:47] <timeless> darobin: we're also discontinuing "HTML The Markup Language"
# [18:47] <timeless> paulc: we can tell the room that's what we want to do
# [18:47] <timeless> ... we're resource constrained
# [18:47] <timeless> ... do we do a call for volunteers
# [18:48] <timeless> ... if we could have people edit them
# [18:48] <timeless> ... do we want them to continue
# [18:48] <timeless> ... or do we not think they should survive?
# [18:48] <MikeSmith> q+ to saay
# [18:48] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [18:48] <timeless> ... or do we want a CfC w/ an anchor to the document of that time
# [18:48] <timeless> darobin: if we had volunteers, we could talk about it
# [18:48] <timeless> ... but only one, and not both
# [18:48] <timeless> ... HTML for web authors is generated from the HTML spec
# [18:48] <timeless> ... it's complicated and tends to break
# [18:49] <timeless> ... if we were to keep one of them alive, i'd say it would be "HTML The Markup Language"
# [18:49] <timeless> ... but it would be a better fit for webplatform.org
# [18:49] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [18:49] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to saay
# [18:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:49] <timeless> MikeSmith: both of those documents are generated
# [18:49] <timeless> ... HTML The Markup Language is generated from the Schema of the validator
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# [18:49] <timeless> ... both of them have XSL Style Sheets
# [18:49] <timeless> ... anyone volunteering should be able to prove they can handle the pain
# [18:49] <timeless> ... or they could redo them
# [18:49] <eliot> q+
# [18:49] * Zakim sees eliot on the speaker queue
# [18:50] <timeless> ... the issue is there's not much demand
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# [18:50] <timeless> ... not many who would miss them
# [18:50] <adrianba> q+
# [18:50] * Zakim sees eliot, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [18:50] <timeless> paulc: are there bugs?
# [18:50] <timeless> MikeSmith: they're mostly non-normative bugs
# [18:50] <timeless> SteveF: what's the difference?
# [18:50] <timeless> MikeSmith: source for HTML spec is marked up w/ class values w/ every paired ref and in some cases even spans of text
# [18:51] <timeless> ... e.g. that only apply to HTML UA implementers
# [18:51] <timeless> ... the build script drops the HTML UA sections
# [18:51] <timeless> ... the idea was so that you didn't have to do the style switching
# [18:51] <timeless> ... the spec has dfn's marked up w/ generated cross references
# [18:51] <timeless> ... in the source for the html spec .. in Hixie 's upstream version
# [18:52] <timeless> ... but the refs don't work across the multipage document
# [18:52] <timeless> ... if you click up a dfn term
# [18:52] <timeless> ... it shows a popup with everywhere it's used in the doc
# [18:52] <timeless> ... but you have to use the 6mb spec document
# [18:52] <timeless> ... when i wrote the build, i made it work across multipage for the author's version
# [18:52] <timeless> ... the other problem is that sometimes it references stuff
# [18:52] <timeless> ... even when you get a popup
# [18:52] <timeless> ... sometimes it references something only in the full spec version
# [18:53] <timeless> ... so i made the script distinguish between "in author edition"
# [18:53] <timeless> ... and "need to link to full version of spec"
# [18:53] <timeless> ... i don't care, and no one has filed bugs
# [18:53] <timeless> ... indicates no one is using it
# [18:53] <timeless> ... if someone was able to show they're serious about maintaining
# [18:53] <timeless> ... i'd say ok, let them do it
# [18:53] <chaals> q+
# [18:53] * Zakim sees eliot, adrianba, chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:53] <timeless> darobin: if we have someone we don't like
# [18:53] <timeless> ... and want them to spend time on it
# [18:53] <timeless> MikeSmith: a honey pot
# [18:53] <timeless> paulc: plh could handle it?
# [18:54] <timeless> [ records stop ]
# [18:54] <timeless> SteveF: with the style switcher, we get the author view w/o the pain
# [18:54] <timeless> MikeSmith: yes
# [18:54] <timeless> ... also with HTML The Markup Language
# [18:54] <timeless> ... the spec has attributes w/ short descriptions
# [18:54] <timeless> ... so you don't have to go down to the core
# [18:54] <darobin> q?
# [18:54] * Zakim sees eliot, adrianba, chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:54] <timeless> ... but Hixie did that to the upstream spec
# [18:55] <timeless> ... also, there are rules in HTML that people still are confused by
# [18:55] <timeless> ... and XML and HTML helped confuse people
# [18:55] <timeless> ... you can omit <body>, you can omit <html>
# [18:55] <adrianba> q-
# [18:55] * Zakim sees eliot, chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:55] <timeless> ... there's a section in the spec (syntax) where the rules for omission are listed
# [18:55] <timeless> ... Hixie recently put the tag omission rules into the individual tag sections
# [18:56] <timeless> ... so now this added value is obsolete
# [18:56] <timeless> ... there are a couple of other style things we could migrate
# [18:56] <timeless> ... we don't need to worry about losing
# [18:56] <timeless> paulc: sounds like we need emails to html-admin@
# [18:56] <timeless> ... "discontinued document X"
# [18:56] <timeless> ... with rationale heard here today
# [18:56] <timeless> ... with an explicit request that people who disagree please respond to the thread
# [18:56] <timeless> ... the emails should provide the positive reasons
# [18:57] <timeless> ... - that the base doc now satisfies these needs
# [18:57] <timeless> ... one of the editors should sign up to send these messages
# [18:57] <timeless> ... both you, MikeSmith ?
# [18:57] <timeless> MikeSmith: yes, both me
# [18:57] <timeless> paulc: do two separate messages w/ clear subject field
# [18:57] <timeless> ... first paragraph w/ executive summary
# [18:57] <timeless> ... why document will be discontinued
# [18:57] <timeless> ... publish as WG NOTE
# [18:57] <timeless> ... give story as you gave now
# [18:57] <timeless> rubys2: make the default what you want
# [18:58] <timeless> ... that they go away
# [18:58] <timeless> q?
# [18:58] * Zakim sees eliot, chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:58] <timeless> ack eliot
# [18:58] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:58] <timeless> eliot: rubys2 you lost your projecting
# [18:58] <timeless> ... that's not why i'm on the queue
# [18:58] <timeless> eliot: to respond to darobin
# [18:58] <timeless> ... i reached out to shepazu
# [18:58] <timeless> ... he and i will look at the content and see where it makes sense to merge it over
# [18:58] * rubys is now known as rubys0
# [18:58] <timeless> ... we're happy to take content
# [18:58] <timeless> ack chaals
# [18:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:59] * rubys2 is now known as rubys
# [18:59] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [18:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [18:59] <chaals> ack chaals
# [18:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:59] <timeless> darobin: there are bugs in the publication system
# [18:59] <timeless> ... we're working on fixing them
# [18:59] <timeless> ... hopefully by the end of the week
# [18:59] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [18:59] <timeless> paulc: editors need to publish the chairs
# [18:59] <timeless> ... for the three documents
# [18:59] <timeless> ... HTML5.1 heartbeat
# [18:59] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [18:59] <timeless> ... Canvas2D level 2 heartbeat
# [19:00] <timeless> ... HTML4.01 to HTML5 heartbeat
# [19:00] <timeless> ... you need to give stable versions of those documents
# [19:00] <timeless> ... we'll run a CfC together to get them published
# [19:00] <timeless> ... sound like a plan?
# [19:00] <timeless> ... we should try to publish those every 3 months
# [19:00] <timeless> darobin: 3 months
# [19:00] <timeless> paulc: <main> is in HTML5.1
# [19:00] <timeless> ... current activity is getting <main> in HTML5.0
# [19:00] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak)
# [19:00] <timeless> ... that doesn't hold up this heartbeat?
# [19:01] <timeless> darobin: right, it's been in HTML5.1 for 2 months
# [19:01] <timeless> ... at some point i'd like to publish a FPWD of the Ruby Extension spec
# [19:01] <timeless> ... i'll talk to you about issuing a CfC on that
# [19:01] <timeless> paulc: i think you sent a note to public-html@ about that spec
# [19:01] <timeless> ... did yoy get a response?
# [19:01] <timeless> s/yoy/you/
# [19:01] <timeless> darobin: not on the list
# [19:01] <timeless> ... but i did get direct
# [19:02] <timeless> ... partly from implementers, "yeah, that looks good"
# [19:02] <timeless> ... and one from i18n people, they found a bug
# [19:02] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [19:02] <timeless> paulc: you're putting something into HTML5.0
# [19:02] <timeless> ... stuff that overrides what's in HTML5.0?
# [19:02] <timeless> ... was that in the AT RISK list?
# [19:02] <timeless> darobin: i don't think so
# [19:02] <timeless> paulc: is it your intention
# [19:02] <timeless> ... you've spent a lot of time on this
# [19:02] <timeless> ... was your intention to get this spec caught up so it could fold into HTML5.0?
# [19:02] <timeless> darobin: it would be nice
# [19:02] <timeless> ... but i don't think the implementation schedule lines up
# [19:02] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:03] <timeless> paulc: the problem isn't tests
# [19:03] <timeless> ... it's implementations
# [19:03] <timeless> darobin: hard to fold into spec without implementations
# [19:03] <timeless> paulc: chaals and A11Y TF learned
# [19:03] <timeless> ... there are granular blocks of time between FPWD and LC
# [19:03] <rubys> q+
# [19:03] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [19:03] <timeless> ... no reason to wait to 0 bugs before LC
# [19:03] <timeless> darobin: i just think it should be fixed first
# [19:04] <timeless> paulc: darobin is on hook to tell chairs when he is ready w/ Ruby spec
# [19:04] <timeless> ... and we'd do a CfC on Ruby
# [19:04] <timeless> s/LC/FPWD/
# [19:04] <timeless> paulc: question to Process experts
# [19:04] <timeless> ... can you do FPWD and LC at the same time?
# [19:04] <timeless> plh: yes
# [19:04] <timeless> chaals: yes
# [19:04] <timeless> paulc: do you have to wait for LC?
# [19:05] <timeless> chaals: it's common to wait
# [19:05] <timeless> ... there's the 60 day timeout
# [19:05] <timeless> paulc: is there any reason not to do FPWD and LC at the same time?
# [19:05] <timeless> darobin: i'm happy to do them at the same time
# [19:05] <timeless> paulc: seeing some people shake their heads
# [19:05] <timeless> ... i thought process and Patent Policy were written to encourage people to bring well formed work to Consortia
# [19:06] <timeless> ... so if it was a NOTE it didn't have to do multiple WDs before LC
# [19:06] <timeless> chaals: in principle, yeah
# [19:06] <timeless> ... in practice
# [19:06] <timeless> ... FPWD and look for comments before LC
# [19:06] <timeless> ... isn't a bad idea
# [19:06] <timeless> ... if you do FPWD and LC at once
# [19:06] <timeless> ... you're more likely to get a second LC
# [19:06] <timeless> ... it's a social thing
# [19:06] <timeless> ... best not to have "LC" isn't "first in a series"
# [19:06] <timeless> paulc: right
# [19:06] <timeless> ... you're saying if you do LC, it should really be _the_ LC
# [19:07] <timeless> darobin: either way is fine
# [19:07] <timeless> ... if we do them together, we need a long LC period anyway
# [19:07] <timeless> paulc: just wanted to consider possibility
# [19:07] <timeless> q?
# [19:07] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [19:07] <timeless> ack rubys
# [19:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:07] <timeless> rubys: what do you recommend we do in HTML5.0?
# [19:07] <timeless> ... i understand current target is 5.1
# [19:07] <timeless> ... ruby isn't marked as AT RISK
# [19:07] <timeless> ... what should happen to it?
# [19:07] <timeless> darobin: it's a problem
# [19:07] <timeless> ... i didn't think about marking as AT RISK
# [19:08] <timeless> ... what's there is really buggy
# [19:08] <timeless> ... it doesn't make i18n people happy at all
# [19:08] <timeless> ... if this doesn't make it
# [19:08] <timeless> ... we should look into dropping what's there
# [19:08] <timeless> ... ideally we could get this in 5.0
# [19:08] <timeless> rubys: if it doesn't make CR exit criteria
# [19:08] <timeless> ... it doesn't make sense to put in
# [19:08] <timeless> ... but it might make sense to drop the current ruby
# [19:08] <timeless> darobin: the way the spec is written is very buggy
# [19:08] <timeless> rubys: it's got an infinite loop
# [19:09] <timeless> darobin: it doesn't really work
# [19:09] <timeless> chaals: are they using what's in the spec
# [19:09] <timeless> ... or markup like it
# [19:09] <timeless> MikeSmith: this isn't a candidate that's buggy enough to remove
# [19:09] <timeless> darobin: the spec is really buggy
# [19:09] <timeless> paulc: you collected all the bugs on ruby in the document
# [19:09] <timeless> ... and instead of attempting to fix the 5.0 document
# [19:09] <timeless> ... you put the suggested change in an extension spec
# [19:10] <timeless> ... what did you do for the bugs in 5.0?
# [19:10] <timeless> darobin: we don't have a component, we could make one
# [19:10] <timeless> ... they're still left open, assigned to me
# [19:10] <timeless> paulc: some of those bugs might not be sufficient grounds to take them out of
# [19:10] <timeless> MikeSmith: i'd say they aren't
# [19:10] <timeless> ... i know the guy who implemented it in Chrome
# [19:10] <timeless> ... he didn't have a huge amount of trouble implementing it
# [19:11] <timeless> darobin: he'd have to read between the lines
# [19:11] <timeless> ... as is, you get lots of infinite loops
# [19:11] <timeless> hober: that's really where Ruby is, it's between the lines
# [19:11] <timeless> [ Laughter, Applause ]
# [19:11] <timeless> MikeSmith: i don't remember there being big problems
# [19:11] <timeless> ... it's in WebKit, Chrome, Blink, IE
# [19:11] <timeless> paulc: saying it's being used didn't prevent us from removing
# [19:12] <timeless> ... <hgroup>
# [19:12] <timeless> darobin: there's perhaps a way to fix part of it
# [19:12] <timeless> ... and the rest in extension
# [19:12] <timeless> MikeSmith: main use is Japan
# [19:12] <timeless> ... they won't be happy if you remove it from the spec
# [19:12] <timeless> ... it's a waste of time to talk about removing it
# [19:12] <timeless> darobin: hybrid approach, take fixes from extension spec
# [19:12] <timeless> ... migrate to HTML5 spec
# [19:12] <timeless> ... but w/o introducing new features
# [19:12] <timeless> MikeSmith: sounds fine
# [19:12] <hober> q?
# [19:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:13] <hober> q+
# [19:13] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [19:13] <timeless> ... but yanking doesn't seem valuable
# [19:13] <timeless> rubys: value in having in spec
# [19:13] <timeless> darobin: we can split it
# [19:13] <timeless> ... extension spec adds features
# [19:13] <timeless> ... we can leave them out
# [19:13] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
# [19:13] <timeless> ... existing docs really doesn't work
# [19:13] <timeless> ... happy to look at webkit
# [19:13] <timeless> MikeSmith: talk to roland
# [19:13] * timeless roland ??
# [19:13] <timeless> paulc: straw man
# [19:13] <timeless> ... darobin closes final bug on his Ruby spec
# [19:14] <timeless> ... that we publish FPWD
# [19:14] <timeless> ... would that by itself cause a storm of response?
# [19:14] <timeless> MikeSmith: no, they'd be happy w/ that
# [19:14] <timeless> paulc: darobin, does your draft enumerate the bugs it's trying to solve?
# [19:14] <timeless> darobin: not as bugs, but it states the UCs
# [19:14] <timeless> glenn: i'd like to have a FPWD and not do LC simultaneously
# [19:14] <timeless> paulc: that's fine, i wanted to examine things
# [19:15] <timeless> ... but we agree that's rushing the horse out of the barn
# [19:15] <timeless> ... but, darobin, i'd like the status section to indicate the bugs it's addresssing
# [19:15] <timeless> s/addresssing/addressing/
# [19:15] <hober> q-
# [19:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:15] <timeless> ... but agree w/ MikeSmith
# [19:15] <timeless> ... want to contact implementers
# [19:15] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [19:15] <timeless> darobin: implementers read it and gave feedback
# [19:15] <timeless> MikeSmith: would be nice to get input from Mozilla
# [19:15] <timeless> ... instead of not implementing
# [19:16] <timeless> q?
# [19:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:16] <timeless> SteveF: sounds like there's some spec that should go back into 5.0
# [19:16] <timeless> ... and some to sit outside of 5.0
# [19:16] <timeless> ... why not put it in 5.1 spec for review
# [19:16] <timeless> ... bits we agree upon that could go back to 5.0?
# [19:16] <timeless> darobin: i don't want to commit
# [19:16] <timeless> ... it's one big painful algorithm
# [19:16] <timeless> ... i'm not sure whether it's splittable or not
# [19:16] <timeless> ... into sensible pieces
# [19:17] <timeless> SteveF: will it eventually sit in 5.1?
# [19:17] <timeless> darobin: at some point
# [19:17] <timeless> ... but i'd rather not do the work of integrating just yet
# [19:17] <timeless> ... it's a fairly big delta
# [19:17] <mjs> q+
# [19:17] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:17] <timeless> q+ break to have coffee
# [19:17] * Zakim sees mjs, break on the speaker queue
# [19:17] <timeless> ack mjs
# [19:17] * Zakim sees break on the speaker queue
# [19:17] <timeless> mjs: first step before backporting
# [19:17] <timeless> ... is to identify most critical
# [19:18] <timeless> ... if backporting doesn't work out
# [19:18] <timeless> ... maybe someone will be motivated to hotfix the most critical issues
# [19:18] <timeless> darobin: you have to replace the entire algorithm
# [19:18] <timeless> mjs: have you checked to see if the new algorithm matches the existing implementations
# [19:18] <timeless> darobin: the new features...
# [19:18] <timeless> mjs: ignoring those
# [19:18] <timeless> ... for the feature set people tried to implement
# [19:19] <timeless> darobin: it partially matches
# [19:19] <timeless> ... except where i think they're wrong
# [19:19] <timeless> ... e.g. WebKit loses whitespace
# [19:19] <timeless> ... where i think it shouldn't
# [19:19] <timeless> ... it doesn't come up often
# [19:19] <timeless> ... only matters w/ Ruby on Latin languages
# [19:19] <timeless> ... but it matches most of the rest
# [19:19] <timeless> ... afaic=t
# [19:19] <timeless> s/=//
# [19:19] <timeless> q?
# [19:19] * Zakim sees break on the speaker queue
# [19:19] <timeless> paulc: steps
# [19:19] <timeless> darobin: 1. file bugs not currently filed
# [19:20] <timeless> 2. fix bugs in my alg
# [19:20] <timeless> s/2/... 2/
# [19:20] <timeless> ... 3. fix bug in extension spec
# [19:20] <timeless> ... 4. make SOTD point to actual bugs
# [19:20] <timeless> ... 5. talk to chairs about FPWD
# [19:20] <timeless> ... 6. see about backporting to 5.0
# [19:20] <timeless> paulc: i'll assume MikeSmith agrees then
# [19:20] <timeless> paulc: i heard mjs asked
# [19:20] <timeless> ... double check to make sure your algorithm
# [19:21] <timeless> ... see how it matches existing code
# [19:21] <timeless> darobin: in my view, it's part of backporting to 5.0 (#6)
# [19:22] <Zakim> HTML_CG(F2F)12:00PM has now started
# [19:22] <Zakim> +Paypal
# [19:22] <timeless> [ #2 and #3 are the same, so there are really only 5 points ]
# [19:22] * plh notes that the html f2f room is now on the bridge
# [19:22] <timeless> q?
# [19:22] * Zakim sees break on the speaker queue
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# [19:23] <timeless> paulc: schedule has us talking about issue-194
# [19:23] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:23] <timeless> ... reconvene @ 10:35
# [19:23] <timeless> q- break
# [19:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:23] <timeless> Topic: Assigning a transcript to audio or video (ISSUE-194)(A11Y TF)
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# [19:33] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/218c893c5bbd4767dd26579010ae1ac955c4cb6f
# [19:33] <gitbot> html/master 218c893 steve faulkner: added style switcher files
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# [19:46] <timeless> JF: a recap of the issue formerly known as issue-194
# [19:46] <timeless> ... we have a longstanding issue
# [19:46] <timeless> ... to have a programmatically associated transcript to a video
# [19:47] <timeless> ... a group of us looked at UCs
# [19:47] <timeless> ... we went through a WBS survey
# [19:47] <timeless> ... got 4 responses
# [19:47] <timeless> ... this is sitting in limbo ASAP
# [19:47] <timeless> ... from an engineering perspective, it may not seem big
# [19:47] <hober> q+
# [19:47] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [19:47] <timeless> ... but there's legislative ... that can...
# [19:48] <timeless> ... there was an idea of introducing transcript= and <transcript>
# [19:48] <timeless> ... the <transcript> element would be what contains the transcript
# [19:48] <timeless> ... and transcript= would take an idref to that <transcript>
# [19:49] <timeless> ... there could be a link to an external document, an embedded iframe/div
# [19:49] <timeless> ... or dynamic html
# [19:49] <timeless> ... you could get visual highlighting of words as they're spoken
# [19:49] <timeless> ... the definition of Transcript is very broad and very vague
# [19:50] <timeless> ... we looked at putting <transcript> as a child of <video>
# [19:50] <timeless> ... but the UCs for displaying it onscreen would be very messy
# [19:50] <timeless> ... we haven't gotten implementation by browsers
# [19:50] <timeless> ... this can't be mothballed [because of legislative consequences]
# [19:50] <timeless> ... we wanted to have a dialogue in this WG
# [19:50] <timeless> ... the group that worked on this was 5 or 6 people
# [19:50] <timeless> ... we need broader input
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# [19:51] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/5af0b7eb875841e4a5f923ef596ee8927c1ab0e9
# [19:51] <gitbot> html/master 5af0b7e stevefaulkner: Update Makefile...
# [19:51] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [19:51] <timeless> MarkVickers: is there a time for when Regulations come into effect?
# [19:51] <timeless> JF: it's complicated, it's an international question
# [19:51] <timeless> ... we don't have a specific date on a caendar
# [19:51] <timeless> ... there's the US Digital Communication Act
# [19:51] <timeless> ... the area of video accessibility on the web
# [19:52] <timeless> ... sooner rather than later
# [19:52] <timeless> ... legislation will probably lead demand
# [19:52] <paulc> q?
# [19:52] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [19:52] <timeless> MarkVickers: there's a captioning requirement coming into effect in January
# [19:52] <timeless> JF: we're hearing feedback when we talk to accessibility providers
# [19:52] <timeless> ... it would be huge when you have a Professor drawing a venn diagram on a blackboard
# [19:53] <timeless> ... in a University
# [19:53] <timeless> ... we have legislative requirements for this
# [19:53] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [19:53] <timeless> ... we need a standardized solution ... in HTML5, 5.1, or extension
# [19:53] <timeless> ack hober
# [19:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:53] <timeless> hober: JF's description is pretty accurate
# [19:53] * Joins: rubys_ (~rubys@public.cloak)
# [19:53] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [19:53] <timeless> ... we had an active survey on 2 proposals when Plan 2014 was adopted
# [19:54] <timeless> ... by adopting Plan 2014, we agreed people interested in pursuing this could proposal proposals
# [19:54] <timeless> ... i'm not aware of new technical issues
# [19:54] <timeless> ... i think we've talked about this a lot
# [19:54] <timeless> ... the next step is writing an extension spec
# [19:54] <timeless> paulc: one or two?
# [19:54] <timeless> hober: i'd expect 2, as there are two proposals
# [19:55] <timeless> ... unless someone leads to convergence
# [19:55] <timeless> paulc: is that what you want, JF ?
# [19:55] <timeless> JF: if that's the only feedback we get from the group
# [19:55] <timeless> ... we haven't gotten feedback from the implementers
# [19:55] <timeless> ... my perception is that this has been low under the radar
# [19:55] <timeless> ... as other issues have been dealt with
# [19:55] <timeless> ... but this could spike very quickly
# [19:55] <timeless> ... we need to actively engage on this
# [19:55] <timeless> q?
# [19:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:56] <timeless> [ rubys projects Plan 2014 ]
# [19:56] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [19:56] <timeless> paulc: "when you want cookies, don't go to the shoe counter"
# [19:56] <timeless> ... i understand you're coming here
# [19:56] <timeless> ... but this says the TF has the authority to produce specs
# [19:56] <timeless> ... the TF is encouraged to converge onto a single solution
# [19:57] <timeless> ... i'm a fairly regular attendee
# [19:57] <timeless> ... i don't think this item has been on the agenda
# [19:57] <timeless> ... this was a clear agenda from 2014
# [19:57] <timeless> ... wonder what happened to other items on this list
# [19:57] <timeless> SteveF: when i first became co-chair of the TF
# [19:57] <timeless> ... i approached people involved
# [19:57] <timeless> ... including hober
# [19:57] <timeless> ... asking whether they'd be interested in developing extension specs
# [19:58] <timeless> ... i didn't get any positive response
# [19:58] <timeless> ... it hasn't been brought up since then
# [19:58] <timeless> q?
# [19:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <timeless> chaals: i'm chairing the next TF meeting
# [19:58] <timeless> ... i've noted it for the agenda
# [19:58] <timeless> paulc: anyone can write an extension spec
# [19:58] <timeless> ... if we don't have volunteers to write them
# [19:58] <timeless> ... maybe we'll have two
# [19:58] <timeless> ... history of this was
# [19:58] <timeless> ... - two different approaches
# [19:59] <timeless> paulc: 1 lawyer in town goes broke, 2 in a town make a lot of money
# [19:59] <timeless> ... if you want convergence, write your extension spec
# [19:59] <timeless> ... that will probably get the other to come out of the woodwork
# [19:59] <timeless> ... until one occurs, not much will happen
# [19:59] <timeless> JF: taking advantage of the people at this F2F
# [19:59] <timeless> ... the A11Y group has engineering holes
# [20:00] <timeless> ... we need help
# [20:00] <timeless> paulc: hober do you remember if we asked
# [20:00] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
# [20:00] <timeless> hober: i think we did ask
# [20:00] <timeless> paulc: we have 2 proposals
# [20:00] <timeless> ... we tried to get some sense for what implementers would actually implement
# [20:01] <timeless> ... there's a bit of work to writing an extension spec
# [20:01] <timeless> ... but JF 's view is
# [20:01] <timeless> ... this is a piece of functionality which is really important
# [20:01] <timeless> ... if the implementers would say "yay, we want to do it one way"
# [20:01] <timeless> ... that would make it easier for us to work on it
# [20:01] <timeless> chaals: we had preference for design A or B, in varying proportions
# [20:01] <timeless> ... but the margin of error was the biggest winner
# [20:02] <timeless> hober: i could take an Action to find the results from that meeting
# [20:02] <timeless> paulc: my only other suggestion
# [20:02] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [20:02] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/0a9e5b78ccac3d016b0be954cd8fb5ef7cafc8b1
# [20:02] <gitbot> html/master 0a9e5b7 steve faulkner: tweaked author CSS
# [20:02] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [20:02] <timeless> ... once hober replays that
# [20:02] <timeless> ... perhaps chaals, we could get more people to the call on that topic
# [20:02] <timeless> ... failing that, if you want to add it as a topic to a WG meeting
# [20:02] <timeless> chaals: i think, we raised the thing, noted the issue
# [20:02] <timeless> ... TF -- go write extension spec
# [20:02] <timeless> ... see if TF gets consensus
# [20:03] <timeless> ... if not, bring to WG, see which way we jump
# [20:03] <MikeSmith> agenda?
# [20:03] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
# [20:03] <timeless> mjs: any implementers want to express an opinion?
# [20:03] <timeless> agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda#Agenda_April_24
# [20:03] <timeless> agenda?
# [20:03] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
# [20:03] * timeless grumbles
# [20:03] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [20:03] <MikeSmith> q+ to say, note for later: TPAC 2013
# [20:03] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [20:04] <timeless> topic: Web Performance WG issues related to HTML5
# [20:04] <MikeSmith> q-
# [20:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:04] <timeless> DanielAustin: we started talking yesterday about WebPerf on Media Status codes
# [20:04] <timeless> ... we met this morning
# [20:04] <timeless> ... we divided these errors into persistent errors and connection related errors
# [20:04] <DanielAustin> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/NavigationErrorLogging/Overview.html
# [20:05] <timeless> ... the spec we mentioned yesterday has been dropped into two drafts
# [20:05] <timeless> ... my proposal was that since we're doing error logging anyway
# [20:05] <DanielAustin> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/ResourceErrorLogging/Overview.html
# [20:05] <timeless> ... it might make sense to join forces
# [20:05] <timeless> ... between media status codes
# [20:05] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [20:05] <timeless> ... what we're trying to do is supplement the existing Navigation and ResourceTiming APIs
# [20:05] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek_@public.cloak)
# [20:05] <timeless> ... we've cataloged a bunch of errors
# [20:06] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about whether we (HTML WG) already have plans to meet at TPAC 2013
# [20:06] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [20:06] <timeless> ... a bunch from the IANA registries and from the HTTP RFCs
# [20:06] <timeless> ... we added things for DNS
# [20:06] <timeless> ... but things wouldn't work if we couldn't handle media errors
# [20:06] <adrianba> q?
# [20:06] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [20:06] <adrianba> q+
# [20:06] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:06] <timeless> ... my proposal was to combine forces and have status codes standardized as part of webperf error logging activity
# [20:07] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [20:07] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [20:07] <MikeSmith> q- later
# [20:07] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [20:07] <timeless> adrianba: the error codes
# [20:07] <MikeSmith> q-
# [20:07] <timeless> ... and types of error
# [20:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:07] <timeless> ... that you're trying to support w/ these apis are focused on Networking
# [20:07] <timeless> ... is that true?
# [20:07] <timeless> DanielAustin: networking and http
# [20:07] <timeless> ... but we spoke about CSS and JS errors
# [20:07] <timeless> ... if you're feeling it isn't necessary/don't want to do it now
# [20:08] <timeless> ... it occurred to me we're working in the same direction
# [20:08] <timeless> adrianba: my feeling is we're not working in the same direction
# [20:08] <timeless> ... these things are orthogonal
# [20:08] <timeless> ... it's possible some communication errors that you're logging might occur during applications doing media playback
# [20:08] <timeless> ... in that situation, the resource error logging would already be in place
# [20:08] <timeless> ... should be using some aspect of the Media element, or XHR
# [20:08] <timeless> ... that would already be covered by the resource logging
# [20:09] <timeless> ... my question for WebPerf
# [20:09] <timeless> ... could you give us an example of something that wouldn't be handled by Resource Logging that we should consider?
# [20:09] <timeless> DanielAustin: my thinking
# [20:09] <timeless> ... i have a page w/ Media and it fails
# [20:09] <timeless> ... and you return a status saying media file didn't start
# [20:09] <timeless> ... as someone reporting diagnostics, i'd want to say why did that fail
# [20:10] <timeless> ... i have two disconnected systems for logging
# [20:10] <timeless> ... and i'd have to try to correlate
# [20:10] <timeless> adrianba: i don't think that's true
# [20:10] <timeless> ... for the places where that error would occur, i think the resource loading error spec would already cover that
# [20:10] <timeless> ... the resource loading in media would already be covered by the normal bit
# [20:10] <timeless> ... in MSE, the JS app is responsible for where it gets data
# [20:11] <timeless> ... it could be from network, some other api, file api
# [20:11] <timeless> ... whichever mechanism the app is using
# [20:11] <timeless> ... if it's loading using network, logging would catch that
# [20:11] <timeless> ... i don't think that's something not already covered
# [20:11] <timeless> ... if during WebPerf discussions you identify something
# [20:11] <timeless> DanielAustin: we split Error Logging from Timing
# [20:11] <timeless> ... alright, if that's the sense of the group
# [20:11] <plh> q+
# [20:11] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [20:11] <timeless> q?
# [20:11] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [20:11] <timeless> ack plh
# [20:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:12] <plh> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Web_Performance/Publications
# [20:12] <timeless> plh: WebPerf WG...
# [20:12] <timeless> ... some of them are actually looking at extending the HTML language
# [20:12] <timeless> ... one is a resource priority specification
# [20:12] <timeless> ... right now you only have differ= attribute on elements
# [20:13] <timeless> ... we'd like to see if we can do more with that, for css, ...
# [20:13] <timeless> ... don't sue us
# [20:13] <timeless> ... the first draft came up last week
# [20:13] <timeless> ... it isn't complete of course
# [20:13] <timeless> ... i wanted to inform this WG
# [20:13] <timeless> paulc: would this thing label itself an extension spec?
# [20:13] <timeless> plh: it would be an extension
# [20:14] <timeless> ... but it might also refer to non html stuff
# [20:14] <timeless> ... resources linked from css
# [20:14] <timeless> paulc: so it's a @webplatform extension spec?
# [20:14] <timeless> XX: which we'd usually call a spec
# [20:14] <timeless> plh: we'd probably come back to the html-wg when we figure out what we want to do
# [20:14] <timeless> paulc: you're proposing to change the order in which html, css, js resources are loaded
# [20:15] <timeless> plh: we're proposing to give control to the UA to change this order
# [20:15] <timeless> paulc: is order defined in the spec?
# [20:15] <timeless> plh: for <script> it is
# [20:15] <timeless> adrianba: there's a processing order required
# [20:15] <timeless> paulc: downloading is different
# [20:15] <timeless> plh: we're talking about download
# [20:15] <timeless> adrianba: clearly it makes sense to make sure things you need first
# [20:15] <timeless> ... you might download first
# [20:16] <timeless> ... but spec doesn't require you to download in some order
# [20:16] <timeless> paulc: are you proposing that the page developer is smarter than the algorithms used today?
# [20:16] <timeless> plh: yes
# [20:16] <timeless> adrianba: yes
# [20:16] <timeless> paulc: ok... alright
# [20:16] <timeless> q?
# [20:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:17] <timeless> paulc: surely it wouldn't be mandatory
# [20:17] <timeless> ... i assume plh that the markup would be advisory?
# [20:17] <timeless> ... right?
# [20:17] <timeless> plh: i don't know
# [20:17] <paulc> An example of error codes in HTML spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/single-page.html#error-codes
# [20:18] <timeless> paulc: question for DanielAustin
# [20:18] * Quits: DanielAustin (~DanielAustin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:18] <timeless> ... these are the error codes defined in 4.8.4.1
# [20:18] <timeless> ... trying to understand
# [20:19] <timeless> ... if you get media-error-aborted network-error-not-supported
# [20:19] <timeless> ... you want your logging interface to know which is returned
# [20:19] <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#error-codes
# [20:19] <timeless> ... why wouldn't you go through the http spec the same way you went through the error codes?
# [20:19] <timeless> [ DanielAustin left the room ]
# [20:20] <timeless> [ DanielAustin returns to the room ]
# [20:20] <timeless> s/left/had left/
# [20:20] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask if anybody raised bugs about those type of error codes being used in the EME spec
# [20:20] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [20:20] <timeless> adrianba: these are the error codes you can get for media playback
# [20:20] <timeless> ... this is orthogonal
# [20:20] <timeless> ... primarily the resource error logging is about stuff that happened at the network layer
# [20:20] <timeless> ... this is things that happened primarily at the decode layer
# [20:21] <timeless> ... trying to mix those two things together may not make sense
# [20:21] <timeless> ... you get something saying that a network error occurred
# [20:21] <timeless> ... well, you could go to the network error logging
# [20:21] <timeless> ... this is a higher error together
# [20:21] <timeless> DanielAustin: we mix layer 4 errors with layer 5 errors with ..
# [20:22] <timeless> ... - dns, ssl, http
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# [20:22] <timeless> ... your spec has similar format to the ones i linked to in irc
# [20:22] <timeless> ... otherwise your object is a spitting image of the error object we have
# [20:22] <MikeSmith> q=
# [20:22] * Zakim MikeSmith, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
# [20:22] <MikeSmith> q-
# [20:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:22] <timeless> ... the error imagery is similar
# [20:23] <timeless> ... your next step is that you'd interrogate your error logging api
# [20:23] <timeless> adrianba: and this is no different than for an <img>
# [20:23] <timeless> ... when an error fires on an <img>, that might be from an http source as well
# [20:23] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [20:23] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/674539907acd6ce3baff6bfc8624cf0513952da3
# [20:23] <gitbot> html/master 6745399 stevefaulkner: Update Makefile...
# [20:23] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [20:23] <timeless> DanielAustin: are these similar
# [20:23] <timeless> paulc: why didn't WebPerf look at the html5 spec?
# [20:24] <timeless> ... i found this by looking at the ToC
# [20:24] <timeless> adrianba: i don't think it's a surprise
# [20:24] <timeless> ... i still think they're different
# [20:24] <timeless> paulc: i'm asking WebPerf to do their work
# [20:24] <timeless> Travis: at what scope do you want to collect these errors
# [20:24] <timeless> ... we could go deep
# [20:24] <timeless> ... for every parse error
# [20:24] <timeless> ... everything that throws an exception/error event
# [20:25] <timeless> ... you could try to catch that
# [20:25] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [20:25] <timeless> ... at some point you get diminishing returns
# [20:25] <timeless> DanielAustin: i don't want to get every CSS error
# [20:25] <timeless> ... WebPerf wants HTTP, anything that's around performance
# [20:25] <timeless> ... we talked about errors from JS
# [20:25] <timeless> ... didn't do details
# [20:25] <timeless> ... it's a harry monster
# [20:25] <timeless> s/harry/hairy/
# [20:25] <timeless> ... if it isn't fully baked, i'm happy to take that back to the group
# [20:26] <timeless> ... but i think there's some scope for cooperation
# [20:26] <timeless> ... i'd like to hope to avoid multiple collections of errors
# [20:26] <timeless> ... with similar
# [20:26] <timeless> paulc: we have lots of schemes
# [20:26] <timeless> ... the one to rule them all
# [20:27] <timeless> paulc: adrianba, you see nothing in conflict between what they're doing and what you're doing
# [20:27] <timeless> ... we're doing something at a higher level
# [20:27] <timeless> ... but the UA could provide this through the interface if it wanted to
# [20:27] <timeless> ... i don't see anywhere in the html 5 spec where we try to do what they're doing
# [20:27] <timeless> adrianba: there are all kinds of parts of HTML5 spec and other specs
# [20:28] <timeless> ... that make requests from the network
# [20:28] <timeless> ... we don't specify
# [20:28] <timeless> ... once you get the URI for something
# [20:28] <timeless> ... exactly how you go and get that resource
# [20:28] <timeless> ... resource error reporting
# [20:28] <timeless> ... is at that layer
# [20:28] <timeless> ... it's different to what's in scope here
# [20:28] <timeless> Travis: it's worth considering the lens at which you're considering
# [20:28] <timeless> ... does it affect perf
# [20:28] <timeless> ... Parser, it's going to parse the same way
# [20:29] <timeless> DanielAustin: i'll take that back to the WebPerf WG
# [20:29] <timeless> ... and look through HTML spec
# [20:29] <timeless> ... all through, i think error logging is really important
# [20:29] <timeless> ... if everyone is defining an object similar to what's being defined here
# [20:29] <timeless> ... that's a duplication
# [20:29] <timeless> Travis: i'd point you to WebRTC
# [20:29] <timeless> ... who have a bunch of other errors
# [20:29] <timeless> DanielAustin: i'll take that back to WebPerf
# [20:30] <timeless> ... we'll talk about this
# [20:30] <timeless> topic: HTML WG Charter status
# [20:30] <timeless> paulc: "The F2F discussed the charter."
# [20:32] <timeless> [ minutes will be collated here later ]
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# [20:34] <gitbot> [html-tools] darobin pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html-tools/commit/387fff26b78efcf334f38be823d89c177dcc8216
# [20:34] <gitbot> html-tools/master 387fff2 Robin Berjon: copy over the switcher directory
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# [20:45] * timeless http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/
# [20:45] * timeless http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
# [20:49] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [20:49] <tantek> q+ jeff
# [20:49] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
# [20:50] <paulc> ack jeff
# [20:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [20:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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# [20:55] <tantek> q+ to mention support for standard open licenses
# [20:55] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
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# [20:57] <tantek> q-
# [20:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:57] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [20:57] <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal
# [20:58] <timeless> topic: W3C TPAC meeting, Shenzhen, China, Nov 11-15
# [20:58] <timeless> paulc: note that the date of the meetin
# [20:58] <timeless> s/meetin/meeting/
# [20:58] <timeless> ... the original dates would be one week later
# [20:58] <timeless> ... but nov 17 has the largest IT conference in Shenzhen
# [20:58] <timeless> ... so the decision was made w/ W3C and the sponsor Tenzent
# [20:58] * timeless ??
# [20:59] <timeless> ... to move the week one week earlier
# [20:59] <timeless> s/Tenzent/Tencent/
# [20:59] <timeless> ... location of a meeting affects who attends
# [20:59] <timeless> ... W3C is aware that having a meeting in China
# [20:59] <timeless> ... may decrease the number of usual suspects
# [21:00] <timeless> ... and increase the number of Chinese suspects
# [21:00] <timeless> ... it's not uncommon for chairs to get observers when we come to the Bay Area
# [21:00] <timeless> ... i want to make people aware of the fact that there are plans to have the meeting in Shenzhen
# [21:01] <timeless> ... it's 1 hour by train / subway, or ferry from Hong Kong
# [21:01] <timeless> darobin: you want to fly to Hong Kong
# [21:01] <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/
# [21:01] <timeless> paulc: i won't say who can get a special visa to enter the special administrative zone
# [21:01] <timeless> ... it changes all the time
# [21:01] <jeff> q+ to comment on Visas
# [21:01] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
# [21:01] <timeless> ... current assumption is TPAC like any other TPAC
# [21:01] <timeless> ... MT-ThF for meetings
# [21:01] <timeless> ... w/ Plenary on W
# [21:02] <timeless> ... intent here to put this item on the table
# [21:02] <timeless> ... to make people aware this is likely to be where this F2F will be
# [21:02] <timeless> ... the draft charter specifically permits the HTML WG to have 2 F2Fs a year
# [21:02] <timeless> ... this meeting here now is our first
# [21:02] <timeless> ... the second would be at TPAC
# [21:02] <timeless> ack jeff
# [21:02] <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on Visas
# [21:02] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:02] <timeless> jeff: depending on where you're coming from / going to, your mileage will differ
# [21:03] <timeless> ... our Chinese host in BayHung University has graciously offered to issue Visa Invitations
# [21:03] <timeless> ... I can't speak for the Chinese government
# [21:03] <timeless> ... we've gotten assurances from our host and our sponsor that they can get people the visas they need
# [21:03] <timeless> paulc: in most cases, the only way to do it is in your country of residence
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# [21:04] <timeless> ... MS has rules as well on business visas
# [21:04] <timeless> ... because they generate a sponsoring letter
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# [21:04] <timeless> ... in Ottawa, you go in a day, hand in passport
# [21:04] <timeless> ... get it back the next day
# [21:04] <timeless> ... don't know if anyone has any questions about this
# [21:04] <timeless> ... there was some question about internet connectivity
# [21:05] <timeless> ... laptop security
# [21:05] <timeless> ... those were discussed at the chairs meeting
# [21:05] <timeless> jeff: on internet connectivity
# [21:05] <timeless> ... there's some successful record of when they host meetings such as this
# [21:05] <timeless> ... that even sites such as Facebook/Google are blocked
# [21:05] <timeless> ... they have a way of getting international visitors access for sites
# [21:05] <timeless> ... our hosts will work to get reasonably unfiltered internet connectivity
# [21:05] <timeless> ... on laptop security
# [21:06] <timeless> ... that's something that people have different levels of concern/worries about
# [21:06] <timeless> ... i've spoken to people who work for companies
# [21:06] <timeless> ... with no issue whatsoever
# [21:06] <timeless> ... i've heard other people who work for other companies who have some concern
# [21:06] <timeless> ... first advice is
# [21:06] <timeless> ... consult your corporate policies
# [21:06] <timeless> ... for W3 Team
# [21:06] <timeless> ... we've had conversation internally
# [21:06] <timeless> ... a lot of the W3 Team is headquartered at MIT
# [21:07] <timeless> ... MIT has a well defined policy for traveling with your laptop
# [21:07] <timeless> ... if you do these things, you should be comfortable traveling w/ your laptop anywhere in the world
# [21:07] <timeless> ... if not, you shouldn't be traveling with it anywhere in the world
# [21:07] <timeless> ... it's about hygiene of protecting your data
# [21:07] <timeless> ... if you want to travel w/ a "clean" laptop
# [21:08] <timeless> ... people are encouraged to do what they feel comfortable
# [21:08] <timeless> paulc: that's fine
# [21:08] <timeless> ... whenever i talk about this meeting to anyone involved at W3, those items come up
# [21:08] <timeless> ... that and how to get in/out of the country
# [21:08] <timeless> ... in general, HTML WG meets ThF
# [21:08] <timeless> ... we coordinate w/ WebApps, which meets MT
# [21:08] <timeless> ... we presume we'd continue to do that
# [21:08] <timeless> ... i can't see any reason to change that
# [21:09] <timeless> ... sometimes people prefer to get away or arrive early
# [21:09] <timeless> ... i think we'd stick with what we have done in the past
# [21:09] <timeless> ... any personal/private questions, you can talk to myself or jeff
# [21:09] <timeless> [ Lunch ]
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# [22:14] <timeless> topic: Check status on other extension specs
# [22:14] <timeless> paulc: i think we did that for longdesc= and Ruby
# [22:14] <timeless> ... and Polyglot, Microdata, and <main>
# [22:14] <timeless> ... we talked about heartbeat
# [22:15] <timeless> ... i think that's covered
# [22:15] <timeless> ... we did MSE, EME
# [22:15] <timeless> ... i believe that item is done
# [22:15] <timeless> ... so, we did all the items on our agenda for today
# [22:15] <timeless> ... and then we have an item for review passive exit criteria
# [22:15] <timeless> ... had we been in yesterday's room
# [22:15] <timeless> ... with round tables
# [22:15] <timeless> ... i'd have split us around the tables
# [22:16] <timeless> [ paulc describes chairing a group on web services in Hawaii ]
# [22:16] <timeless> s/.. and then we have an item for/Topic:/
# [22:16] <timeless> s/... had/paulc: had/
# [22:17] <timeless> paulc: i'd be tempted to take the HTML ToC
# [22:17] <timeless> ... and put it into a spreadsheet
# [22:17] <timeless> ... i don't know if darobin_ would be interested in doing that
# [22:17] * Joins: MarkS (msadecki@public.cloak)
# [22:18] <timeless> ... the goal is to make the test suite as small as possible
# [22:18] <timeless> ... it might be that the WG says we have interoperability
# [22:18] <timeless> ... and we have tests
# [22:18] <timeless> ... maybe someone should test the tests
# [22:18] <timeless> ... to see if we have partial proof of interop
# [22:18] <timeless> ... perhaps the tests are broken
# [22:18] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
# [22:18] <timeless> ... the Implementation, the Spec, and the Test can be broken
# [22:18] <timeless> darobin_: even several at once
# [22:19] <timeless> paulc: rubys put up the document
# [22:19] <timeless> [ html/wg/drafts/html/master ]
# [22:19] <jeff> q+
# [22:19] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
# [22:19] <timeless> krisk: you can skip section 1
# [22:19] <timeless> darobin_: it might be better to just scan through the actual document
# [22:19] <timeless> ... sometimes the titles are deceptively simple
# [22:20] <timeless> paulc: where do we start?
# [22:20] <timeless> chaals: common microsyntaxes
# [22:20] <timeless> krisk: there's a bit on character encoding in terminology
# [22:20] <timeless> ... but it's covered later
# [22:20] <timeless> paulc: oh, your machine is thinking
# [22:21] <timeless> [ Connecting to dvcs.w3.org ]
# [22:22] * timeless waits for someone to drop linnk
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# [22:23] <chaals> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#common-microsyntaxes
# [22:23] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#common-microsyntaxes
# [22:23] * Quits: rubys (~rubys2@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [22:24] <timeless> paulc: if you don't get floating point, or NaNs right
# [22:24] <timeless> ... you're already screwed
# [22:25] <timeless> MikeSmith: there are differences
# [22:25] * Quits: rubys0 (~sruby@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [22:25] <timeless> ... the list of White_Space characters is different from everywhere else
# [22:25] <timeless> darobin_: i'm sure if we write tests for corner cases for that, we'll find bugs
# [22:25] <timeless> ... are those corner cases important enough to make blocking for REC
# [22:25] <timeless> paulc: to me, the test is, does it disturb the user's experience?
# [22:26] <timeless> MikeSmith: bad White_Space will disturb user experience
# [22:26] <timeless> ... what's the target?
# [22:26] <timeless> chaals: "pretty much works"
# [22:26] <timeless> krisk: would be good to identify areas that are sensitive
# [22:26] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Sep/0215.html
# [22:26] <chaals> q+ jeff
# [22:26] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
# [22:27] <timeless> MikeSmith: seems to be "something that exposed to web content"
# [22:27] <timeless> s/content/content as a feature/
# [22:27] <timeless> ack jeff
# [22:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:27] <timeless> jeff: darobin_ asked about corner cases
# [22:27] <timeless> ... if we didn't use the permissive criteria, we'd have come up w/ tests
# [22:27] <timeless> ... anything corner cases we wouldn't need to think about
# [22:28] <timeless> ... anything that would be exposed by existing tests, we'd need to think about
# [22:28] <timeless> [ ?? ]
# [22:28] <timeless> darobin_: if we wrote all tests for this, w/o extreme detail
# [22:28] <timeless> jeff: the typical thing
# [22:28] <timeless> darobin_: would we catch those corner cases?
# [22:28] <timeless> ... i'm not sure
# [22:28] <timeless> ... catching corner cases would be rather deliberate
# [22:29] <timeless> ... i don't think we'll get errors unless we sought out to get them
# [22:29] <timeless> ... there's a difference between Space Characters and White_Space characters
# [22:29] <timeless> ... i'd be surprised if someone didn't get it wrong
# [22:29] <timeless> jeff: normal testing of specs doesn't catch corner cases
# [22:29] <timeless> ... look at a spec
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# [22:30] <timeless> ... if it's sufficiently used in the marketplace
# [22:30] <timeless> ... the marketplace has done "good enough", and thus we can skip this section
# [22:30] <timeless> ... talking about this spec
# [22:30] <timeless> MikeSmith: as long as we're talking about this one
# [22:30] <adrianba> q?
# [22:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:30] <darobin_> q+ to ask that we not revisit the discussion we had yesterday
# [22:30] * Zakim sees darobin_ on the speaker queue
# [22:30] <timeless> chaals: MikeSmith, there's a tension between shipping and perfection
# [22:30] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
# [22:31] <timeless> ... here's a pretty reliable spec, while we do the next version
# [22:31] <timeless> ... while we do fixes in next+1
# [22:31] <MikeSmith> q+ to say, because interoperability
# [22:31] * Zakim sees darobin_, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [22:31] <timeless> ... if we did perfection, it'd be useless
# [22:31] <timeless> ... people want to build interop
# [22:31] <timeless> ... people do things that are normal
# [22:31] <timeless> ... it's valuable to ship something that's, recognized not perfect, but will be fixed
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# [22:31] <timeless> MikeSmith: you don't find the pain points w/o testing
# [22:32] <timeless> ... entire platform is not corner cases
# [22:32] <timeless> chaals: <p> elements work
# [22:32] <paulc> q+
# [22:32] * Zakim sees darobin_, MikeSmith, paulc on the speaker queue
# [22:32] <timeless> ack darobin
# [22:32] <Zakim> darobin_, you wanted to ask that we not revisit the discussion we had yesterday
# [22:32] <darobin> ack me
# [22:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, paulc on the speaker queue
# [22:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, paulc on the speaker queue
# [22:32] <MikeSmith> q+ to say, the entre Web platform is corner cases
# [22:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, paulc on the speaker queue
# [22:32] <timeless> darobin: i agree, we need a wonderful test suite for the platform
# [22:32] <timeless> ... we're working on it
# [22:32] <timeless> ... we do need to ship
# [22:32] <timeless> ... i'd like the Patent Policy to apply to HTML5
# [22:33] <timeless> ... it'd be nice for the Patent portfolio to apply
# [22:33] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [22:33] <timeless> ... we can keep working on improving the test suite
# [22:33] <timeless> ... we don't have to have finished the test suite in order to ship
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# [22:33] <timeless> ... we iterate, we ship 5.1 in a few years
# [22:33] <rubys> q+
# [22:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, paulc, rubys on the speaker queue
# [22:33] <timeless> ... instead of trying to get the perfect test suite
# [22:33] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [22:33] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say, because interoperability and to say, the entre Web platform is corner cases
# [22:33] * Zakim sees paulc, rubys on the speaker queue
# [22:33] <timeless> MikeSmith: nobody is saying the goal here is perfect
# [22:34] <timeless> ... the goal is to find bugs, and expose them before they get exposed to users
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# [22:34] <timeless> ... i understand what we're doing here
# [22:34] <timeless> ... the rhetoric isn't necessary
# [22:34] <timeless> ... we've set a deadline
# [22:34] <timeless> ... it doesn't sound like
# [22:34] <timeless> chaals: sounds like what i said i was saying
# [22:35] <timeless> MikeSmith: this isn't the right message to send to consumers of this specification
# [22:35] <timeless> ... it isn't perfect, but this is good enough
# [22:35] <jeff> q+ to support Mike
# [22:35] * Zakim sees paulc, rubys, jeff on the speaker queue
# [22:35] <timeless> ... that's not acceptable
# [22:35] <timeless> ack paulc
# [22:35] * Zakim sees rubys, jeff on the speaker queue
# [22:35] <timeless> paulc: the model i'd propose here
# [22:35] <timeless> ... may partially deal w/ your concern, MikeSmith
# [22:35] <timeless> ... i'd like to go through and identify sections for which we think no further testing is required
# [22:35] <timeless> ... and publish that list
# [22:35] <timeless> ... and say "this is a call for objection"
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# [22:36] <timeless> ... if someone thinks there's a problem w/ whitespace, then they can object w/ a test case
# [22:36] <timeless> MikeSmith: i'm not talking about whitespace
# [22:36] <timeless> paulc: i'm talking about an algorithm
# [22:36] <timeless> darobin: this is a way to find ...
# [22:36] <timeless> [ cross talk ]
# [22:37] <timeless> ack rubys
# [22:37] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
# [22:37] <timeless> rubys: we need a micro-exit criteria for getting passed individual sections
# [22:37] <timeless> ... i was part of the discussion of the previous discussion
# [22:37] <timeless> ... we need a spec better than HTML4 and XHTML1
# [22:37] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek_@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [22:37] <timeless> ... "is this section better than HTML4 and XHTML1" or "do we need more testing to determine that"
# [22:37] <timeless> ack jeff
# [22:37] <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to support Mike
# [22:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:38] <timeless> jeff: i wanted to partly agree and partly disagree w/ MikeSmith
# [22:38] <tantek> the "well it's better than HTML4 and XHTML1" is not a particularly high bar
# [22:38] <timeless> ... paulc started by saying "the objective here is to minimize the number of tests we have to create"
# [22:38] <timeless> ... the objective is to increase interoperability in a reasonable amount of time
# [22:38] <krisk> q+
# [22:38] * Zakim sees krisk on the speaker queue
# [22:38] <timeless> ... i wasn't suggesting ignore/not ignoring corner cases (as we spoke about whitespace)
# [22:39] <MikeSmith> there are about 5 testable assertions in the entire HTML4 spec
# [22:39] <timeless> ... but what's our confidence level that a particular section is testing in the field
# [22:39] <krisk> q-
# [22:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:39] <timeless> ... to the extent that we'd have tested it internally
# [22:39] <timeless> MikeSmith: that's an odd criteria to use, not one we've ever used
# [22:39] <timeless> ... it doesn't seem sound at a high level
# [22:39] <timeless> jeff: we need some criteria
# [22:40] <timeless> ... when we go to the director
# [22:40] <timeless> ... we've tested these this way, and these that way
# [22:40] <timeless> ... the director will say "how did you decide"
# [22:40] <tantek> MikeSmith - to be fair, there are far more than 5 testable assertions in HTML4, more like dozens or hundreds: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Test/HTML401/current/assertions/assertions_toc.html
# [22:40] <timeless> ... the point rubys made is "we should have some criteria"
# [22:40] <chaals> ["shipping is a feature"]
# [22:40] <timeless> glenn: mjs expressed this well
# [22:41] <timeless> ... give a priority to timing
# [22:41] <timeless> ... and overtetsing
# [22:41] <bryan_> +1 to the need for clear criteria and documented evidence per it, both for permissive passing and otherwise
# [22:41] <timeless> s/tets/test/
# [22:41] <timeless> ... the industry and consumers want everything
# [22:41] <timeless> ... timing, quick testing, interop
# [22:41] <timeless> ... we have to make choices
# [22:41] <chaals> s/and overtesting/over testing/
# [22:41] <timeless> ... we agree timing takes priority
# [22:41] <timeless> ... someone who wants to prioritize testing more, they should take onus
# [22:42] <timeless> ... --- we may diverge into a discussion on metrics
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# [22:42] <timeless> paulc: jeff, the criteria says
# [22:42] <tantek> q+ to ask if there are any criteria for minimum number of tests per feature/section?
# [22:42] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [22:42] <timeless> ... "in any case where judgement is debatable
# [22:42] <timeless> ... it will be a WG decision on interop"
# [22:42] <SteveF> present+ SteveF
# [22:42] <timeless> ... chairs could ask WG for a decision
# [22:43] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
# [22:43] <timeless> ... anyone could have a different reason
# [22:43] <timeless> paulc: i find it ironic that i'm at a WG meeting and having a discussion w/ 3 members of W3 Team
# [22:43] <timeless> paulc: darobin, backing up
# [22:43] <timeless> darobin: 2.5 "common microsyntaxes"
# [22:44] <timeless> q?
# [22:44] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [22:44] <timeless> ack tantek
# [22:44] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask if there are any criteria for minimum number of tests per feature/section?
# [22:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:44] <timeless> tantek: there's a nontrivial amount on date/time formats
# [22:44] <timeless> ... i don't think there's a lot of interop
# [22:44] <timeless> ... they're pretty freshly new
# [22:44] <timeless> paulc: using rubys 's criteria
# [22:45] <timeless> ... your point is 2.5.5 "dates and times"
# [22:45] <timeless> ... is possibly new and could be a target of testing
# [22:45] <timeless> ... that's a good critera, tantek, thank you
# [22:45] <timeless> darobin: is it surfaced to be testable?
# [22:45] <timeless> krisk: they're reflected, but not transformed
# [22:45] <timeless> tantek: you could test it from a validation perspective
# [22:45] <timeless> ... handy for content authors and search engines
# [22:46] <timeless> ... wanted to call out this section v. html4
# [22:46] <timeless> ... and new for standards
# [22:46] <timeless> krisk: propose that when we talk about sections
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# [22:46] <timeless> ... we break it into is it "UA" or "validator"
# [22:46] <timeless> darobin: in the interest of going through relatively quickly
# [22:46] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [22:46] <timeless> ... if someone is not comfortable, we get a quick sentence and add it to the test list
# [22:46] <timeless> paulc: if we keep features at-risk in cache
# [22:47] <timeless> ... <input type=date> <input type=time> <input type=datetime> that are in at-risk
# [22:47] <timeless> darobin: they're also used in <time>
# [22:47] <timeless> paulc: one candidate, thanks tantek
# [22:48] <timeless> rubys: 2.5.6 "Colors"
# [22:48] <timeless> paulc: i can't see them often
# [22:48] <timeless> [ rubys drives through ]
# [22:48] <timeless> paulc: what do we do when HTML5 has a Normative reference to another spec
# [22:49] <timeless> tantek: punt on testing to that normative spec
# [22:49] <timeless> darobin: yes
# [22:49] <timeless> paulc: trying to follow jeff 's suggestion, as we find patterns
# [22:49] * jeff thanks, Paul.
# [22:49] <timeless> krisk: Media Queries is done in CSS
# [22:49] <timeless> paulc: tell Director, he approved it once, he should again
# [22:49] <timeless> rubys: 2.6 "URLs"
# [22:49] <timeless> darobin: bloody nightmare
# [22:50] <timeless> krisk: needs more testing
# [22:50] <timeless> paulc: what about it?
# [22:50] <timeless> darobin: there's no interop on urls whatsover
# [22:50] <timeless> [ krisk's statement is laughed at ]
# [22:50] <timeless> chaals: dynamic changes to base urls is unlikely to be what it says
# [22:50] <timeless> darobin: anne has tests for urls
# [22:50] <timeless> krisk: masinter has tests
# [22:51] <timeless> MikeSmith: chris webber has a bunch
# [22:51] <timeless> paulc: are these URLs bad formed?
# [22:51] <tantek> for a good time some of the challenges that URLs present, I give you: http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-pieces
# [22:51] <timeless> ... and it fetches
# [22:51] <timeless> darobin: it might fetch a resource, but not the one you want
# [22:51] <timeless> ... if you mix Unicode w/ URLs you get worlds of pleasure
# [22:51] <timeless> paulc: darobin, if you know what's in the test suite, it'd be nice to know what's there
# [22:52] <timeless> darobin: going sync for that will take forever
# [22:52] <timeless> [ "Fetching Resources" ]
# [22:52] <tantek> here is an tweet containing a URL that is non-interop in a number of ways: https://twitter.com/codepo8/status/327070476977446914
# [22:52] <timeless> MikeSmith: that's a WIP
# [22:52] <timeless> ... it will be split out
# [22:52] <timeless> Travis: that other spec is not a W3 spec
# [22:52] <timeless> paulc: it's not germane to our CR
# [22:52] <timeless> darobin: getting an open license would maybe make it easier to re-import
# [22:52] <tantek> example of a real world URL that has interop problems: http://tsa.gov/tsa-pre✓™
# [22:53] <timeless> paulc: does this need testing?
# [22:53] <tantek> (yes, with the checkmark and trademark symbols included)
# [22:53] <timeless> rubys: we've lost control of the meeting
# [22:54] * Joins: ddorwin (~ddorwin@public.cloak)
# [22:54] <timeless> MikeSmith: end users / people developing web content
# [22:54] <timeless> ... don't see it as a feature
# [22:54] <timeless> ... they can fetch resources, but sometime it does get what they want
# [22:55] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
# [22:55] <timeless> darobin: don't focus on testing fetch here
# [22:55] <timeless> ... we want to test it broader
# [22:55] <timeless> paulc: there are subsections here
# [22:55] <timeless> darobin: there's a reason it's being moved outside
# [22:55] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
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# [22:55] <timeless> paulc: would have been funny to mark Fetch AT-RISK
# [22:55] <timeless> MikeSmith: it isn't that kind of feature to be tested
# [22:55] <timeless> paulc: objection?
# [22:55] <timeless> [ silence ]
# [22:56] <timeless> [ "Common DOM interfaces" ]
# [22:56] <timeless> darobin: reflecting i think is ok
# [22:56] <timeless> chaals: +1
# [22:56] <timeless> darobin: Transferable is there, but not test there
# [22:57] * Joins: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak)
# [22:57] * Quits: bryan_ (~bryan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [22:57] <timeless> MikeSmith: odd place for Transferables to live
# [22:57] <timeless> paulc: are they elsewhere?
# [22:57] <timeless> MikeSmith: they're w/ WebWorkers
# [22:57] <timeless> darobin: let's not rewrite the spec as we go
# [22:57] <bryan> q+
# [22:57] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
# [22:57] <timeless> ... or else we won't make it to section 3
# [22:57] <timeless> krisk: there are tests for it
# [22:58] <timeless> darobin: i don't want to test 2.8.6 "DOM feature strings"
# [22:58] <timeless> ... 2.8.7 "Garbage collection", i don't know what we'd test
# [22:59] <timeless> ack bryan
# [22:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:59] <timeless> bryan: Ben put up a page w/ assertions outline count
# [22:59] <timeless> ... i'd like a clear rationale for why we're skipping
# [22:59] <timeless> darobin: i'm capturing it
# [22:59] <timeless> paulc: that's why i have dual scribes (timeless, darobin)
# [22:59] <timeless> ... to give us some advice if we were at cross perposes
# [23:00] <timeless> s/perposes/purposes
# [23:00] <timeless> ... i'm hoping darobin will give post first-traversal advice
# [23:00] <bryan> q-
# [23:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:00] <timeless> rubys: and i'm hoping it will be posted
# [23:00] <timeless> [ "Namespaces" ]
# [23:01] <timeless> chaals: there are interop issues
# [23:01] <timeless> ... but people won't cry here
# [23:01] <timeless> paulc: summary?
# [23:01] <timeless> darobin: some tests, a bunch of non tests
# [23:01] <timeless> paulc: URL part?
# [23:01] <timeless> darobin: "Dates and Times" and "URLs"
# [23:01] <timeless> [ "Semantics, strucutre, and APIs of HTML documents"
# [23:01] <timeless> s/s"/s" ]/
# [23:02] <timeless> darobin: Document object, probably want to test
# [23:02] <timeless> ... exec command will not be something interoperable
# [23:02] <timeless> darobin: title and cookie work
# [23:02] <timeless> ... last modified we probably don't have interop
# [23:02] <timeless> ... some things are more problematic
# [23:03] <timeless> s/exec command/execCommand/
# [23:03] <timeless> paulc: so, selective tests?
# [23:04] <timeless> darobin: there are a bunch of event handlers
# [23:04] <timeless> ... not sure about onwait/onstall
# [23:04] <timeless> rubys: another pass?
# [23:04] <timeless> darobin: offline
# [23:04] <timeless> paulc: detailed review
# [23:04] <timeless> darobin: probably have some tests
# [23:05] <timeless> [ "Security" ]
# [23:05] <timeless> darobin: we can skip
# [23:07] <timeless> "This box is non-normative. Implementation requirements are given below this box."
# [23:07] <timeless> JF: this is why you don't only use color to distinguish things
# [23:07] <timeless> darobin: 3.1 "Documents" is a test target
# [23:08] <timeless> s/strucutre/structure/
# [23:08] <timeless> [ "Eleements" ]
# [23:08] <timeless> s/Eleements/Elements/
# [23:08] <timeless> chaals: contentEditable
# [23:08] <timeless> darobin: draggable
# [23:08] <timeless> ... needs tests
# [23:09] <timeless> [ "Global attributes" ]
# [23:09] <timeless> darobin: "translate=" is when you have a name and you want to say don't tanslate
# [23:09] <timeless> ... you say no
# [23:09] <timeless> s/tanslate/translate/
# [23:10] <timeless> darobin: not sure what to test for translate
# [23:10] <timeless> krisk: could someone building a translator could use translate=
# [23:10] <timeless> tantek: does google translate support translate=no?
# [23:10] <timeless> chaals: some don't
# [23:10] <timeless> ... but some professional tools
# [23:11] <timeless> rubys: will be there two tools that do it interoperably
# [23:11] <timeless> ... needs publicly accessible
# [23:11] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
# [23:12] <timeless> darobin: xmlbase
# [23:13] <timeless> darobin: do we need to test dir=?
# [23:13] <timeless> travis: those might be edge cases
# [23:13] <timeless> darobin: propose we not test class= and style=
# [23:13] <timeless> darobin: test dataset=
# [23:14] <timeless> s/dataset/data-*/
# [23:14] * Quits: LeifHalvardSilli (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:14] <timeless> darobin: that * means something than the other *
# [23:14] <timeless> [ "Element Definitions" ]
# [23:14] <timeless> darobin: not normative
# [23:14] <timeless> [ "Content models" ]
# [23:15] <timeless> [ "Requirements relating to bidrectional-algorithm formatting characters" ]
# [23:15] <timeless> krisk: should be tested, there's tests
# [23:15] <timeless> [ "WAI-ARIA" ]
# [23:15] <timeless> darobin: who cares?
# [23:16] <timeless> SteveF: there are MUST for those sections
# [23:16] <timeless> paulc: is this a reference, or usage?
# [23:16] <timeless> SteveF: it says UAs MUST implement roles and
# [23:16] <timeless> paulc: is some of this implemented today?
# [23:16] <timeless> SteveF: yes
# [23:16] <timeless> ... no official tests
# [23:17] <timeless> JF: they're going through it now
# [23:17] <timeless> paulc: is their mechanism correlated to their ...
# [23:17] <timeless> SteveF: yeah
# [23:17] <timeless> ... i pointed tobie to michael cooper
# [23:17] <timeless> paulc: i know you could create tests/harnesses
# [23:17] <timeless> ... for the semantics in this sectoin
# [23:18] <timeless> s/sectoin/section/
# [23:18] <timeless> ... do we believe a item is implemented
# [23:18] <MikeSmith> q+ to wonder what PF is testing. Are they testing whether browsers expose aria attributes in HTML to platform a11y APIs?
# [23:18] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [23:18] <timeless> [ "Strong Native Semantics" ]
# [23:18] <timeless> krisk: i don't think we have ARIA tests in github
# [23:18] <timeless> darobin: do we need validator tests?
# [23:19] <timeless> MikeSmith: i have support, but no tests
# [23:19] <timeless> krisk: you have to use a screen reader
# [23:19] <timeless> rubys: is it broadly implementable enough to say it works
# [23:19] <timeless> MikeSmith: the whole thing
# [23:19] <timeless> darobin: needs tests
# [23:20] <timeless> [ "Interactions with Path and XSLT" ]
# [23:20] <timeless> q- MikeSmith
# [23:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:20] <timeless> darobin: not a high priority
# [23:20] <timeless> ... not all browsers implement document.evaluate()
# [23:21] <timeless> [ "Dynamic markup insertion" ]
# [23:21] <timeless> darobin: document.open, document.write
# [23:21] <timeless> ... we have a fair bit of tests
# [23:21] <timeless> ... "needs tests"
# [23:22] <timeless> [ "The elements of HTML" ]
# [23:23] <timeless> [ "The root element" ]
# [23:23] <timeless> rubys: those probably work
# [23:23] <timeless> [ "The base element" ]
# [23:23] <timeless> -- the base element needs tests --
# [23:23] <timeless> [ "The meta element" ]
# [23:23] <timeless> krisk: character encoding needs tests
# [23:24] <timeless> ( the group agrees )
# [23:24] <timeless> [ "Scripting" ]
# [23:24] <timeless> darobin: "oh, there's nothing wrong with that"
# [23:24] <timeless> ... we need tests
# [23:24] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [23:24] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/611c964f3a03867f994dbbc861e6d8eec4cc1001
# [23:24] <gitbot> html/master 611c964 steve faulkner: tweaked switch script
# [23:24] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [23:24] <timeless> ... defer, async
# [23:24] <timeless> krisk: there are tests for those
# [23:24] <timeless> darobin: what about <noscript>?
# [23:25] <timeless> Josh_Soref: NoScript and similar are used by "noisy" users who would thus test it
# [23:25] <timeless> [ "Sections" ]
# [23:25] <timeless> [ "The body element" ]
# [23:25] <timeless> darobin: probably basic tests for new elements
# [23:25] <timeless> rubys: minimal tests?
# [23:26] <timeless> darobin: <article>, <section>, <nav>, <aside>, <header>, <footer>
# [23:26] <timeless> ... test that it's not implementing "HTML unknown elements"
# [23:26] <timeless> krisk: and you can style it
# [23:26] <timeless> rubys: and you can put elements inside it?
# [23:27] <timeless> [ "The address element" ]
# [23:27] <timeless> darobin: <address> should be ok
# [23:27] <timeless> bryan: do we need to test new attributes?
# [23:27] <timeless> darobin: testing global elements tests this
# [23:29] <timeless> darobin: "Creating an outline"
# [23:29] <timeless> ... may be at risk
# [23:29] <timeless> paulc: Outline algorithm is a feature AT-RISK
# [23:29] <timeless> ... how do you put something as a feature at risk if you can't test it?
# [23:29] <tantek> q+
# [23:29] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [23:29] <timeless> darobin: you're going to implement it in the validator, right?
# [23:29] <timeless> MikeSmith: it's in the validator
# [23:30] <timeless> ... the section describes how to build an outline
# [23:30] <timeless> ... but there's no exposure to dom/scripts
# [23:30] <timeless> ... there's no way from a web document to generate an outline
# [23:30] <timeless> adrianba: but two people can independently build tests
# [23:30] <timeless> MikeSmith: there's no defined conformance class required to implement
# [23:31] <timeless> rubys: don't need tests
# [23:31] <timeless> ack tantek
# [23:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:31] <timeless> tantek: non-normative,
# [23:31] * hober notes that we have two implementations: the validator, and anolis
# [23:31] <timeless> ... it's non-normative
# [23:31] <timeless> ... which means we don't need to test it
# [23:31] <timeless> ... but it doesn't mean we should ignore it
# [23:31] <timeless> ... we should still list it at risk
# [23:32] <timeless> MikeSmith: ok, i remember why we put it at risk, i put it there
# [23:32] <timeless> ... logic
# [23:32] <timeless> ... if we have no implementation expected to support this
# [23:32] * Joins: wonsuk_ (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
# [23:32] <timeless> ... we could drop it from the spec, because it doesn't need to be there
# [23:32] <tantek> q-
# [23:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:32] <timeless> [ cross talk definition on "normative" ]
# [23:33] <timeless> paulc: feature at-risk
# [23:33] <timeless> ... no tests for it
# [23:33] <timeless> ... no consensus on what it means
# [23:33] <timeless> ... then WG will have to decide whether to keep it
# [23:34] <timeless> ... i think i restated, MikeSmith 's rationale
# [23:34] <timeless> SteveF: every <heading> in a <section> is an implied section
# [23:35] <timeless> [ "Usage summary" ]
# [23:35] <timeless> darobin: non-normative
# [23:35] <timeless> [ "Grouping content" ]
# [23:35] <timeless> [ "The p element" ]
# [23:35] <timeless> chaals: i assert that works, sufficiently well
# [23:35] <timeless> darobin: all good to dd
# [23:35] <timeless> ... but want tests on <figure> and <figcaption>
# [23:36] <timeless> [ "Text-level semantics" ]
# [23:36] <timeless> darobin: The <a> element
# [23:36] <timeless> ... the <abbr> shouldn't that be acronym? :)
# [23:36] <timeless> darobin: <time> needs tests
# [23:36] <timeless> ... not sure about <samp> and <kbd>
# [23:37] <timeless> ... <mark>
# [23:37] <MikeSmith> when we get to <ins> and <del> I guess we get Daniel Glazman on the phone to ask his opinion
# [23:37] <timeless> ... <ruby> needs tests
# [23:37] <timeless> ... <rt>, <rp> need tests
# [23:37] <timeless> ... <bdi> and <bdo> need tests
# [23:37] <timeless> rubys: <wbr> is new in a spec
# [23:38] <timeless> ... needs tests
# [23:38] <timeless> [ "Edits" ]
# [23:38] <timeless> Josh_Soref: <del> needs tests
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# [23:38] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/46d77af9414a1cfd779e7c57dbf201b0068e4f39
# [23:38] <gitbot> html/master 46d77af stevefaulkner: Update header-w3c-html-core...
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# [23:39] <timeless> [ break ]
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# [23:56] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/d8c4e1bb994ef0205959094ad9d63fd71cf671a6
# [23:56] <gitbot> html/master d8c4e1b stevefaulkner: Update middle-author-mode-links...
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The end :)