/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2013-04-24 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 24 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:04] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  4. # [00:05] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  5. # [00:05] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
  6. # [00:05] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  7. # [00:06] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  8. # [00:06] * Quits: krit1 (~krit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  9. # [00:07] <paulc> test
  10. # [00:07] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
  11. # [00:08] <timeless> topic: Encrypted Media Extensions (EME) (Media TF)
  12. # [00:08] <timeless> paulc: two items
  13. # [00:08] <timeless> ... deep dive into EME bugs
  14. # [00:08] <timeless> ... - take an hour or so
  15. # [00:08] <timeless> ... take a look at the situation of FPWD of EME
  16. # [00:12] * Quits: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  17. # [00:12] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak)
  18. # [00:12] * Joins: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.cloak)
  19. # [00:12] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
  20. # [00:13] * Quits: libbyr (~libbyr@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  21. # [00:13] <MichaelC> q+ Daniel
  22. # [00:13] * Zakim sees Daniel on the speaker queue
  23. # [00:14] <timeless> adianba: we'd like to start with consistent interoperable errors
  24. # [00:15] <timeless> ... here is a UC for sites to report error conditions back to their hosts
  25. # [00:15] <timeless> ... XXX
  26. # [00:15] * timeless bug url?
  27. # [00:15] <ddorwin> adrianba: Call to action: Review the content protection systems you work with, and collect the error codes that you might want to work with and report those.
  28. # [00:16] <timeless> ddorwin: we don't necessarily need to start w/ the existing bugs
  29. # [00:16] <arun> q+ Austin
  30. # [00:16] * Zakim sees Daniel, Austin on the speaker queue
  31. # [00:16] <paulc> bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21798
  32. # [00:16] <timeless> ... not trying to stuff bugs - round peg squareholes
  33. # [00:17] <timeless> paulc: 21795
  34. # [00:17] * Joins: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak)
  35. # [00:17] <timeless> ... 16737
  36. # [00:17] <arun> q- Austin
  37. # [00:17] * Zakim sees Daniel on the speaker queue
  38. # [00:17] <timeless> ... 16617
  39. # [00:17] <ddorwin> s/stuff bugs/force error codes/
  40. # [00:17] <ddorwin> s/squareholes/square holes/
  41. # [00:17] * timeless adrianba : i didn't do a good job of scribing, i was trying to push a working video driver on my laptop
  42. # [00:17] * Joins: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak)
  43. # [00:17] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: Daniel_Austin, PayPal
  44. # [00:17] <timeless> q?
  45. # [00:17] * Zakim sees Daniel on the speaker queue
  46. # [00:18] <timeless> ack d
  47. # [00:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  48. # [00:18] <timeless> ... i think we might want to provide a uniform set of status codes
  49. # [00:18] <timeless> ... so users and sites can do diagnostics
  50. # [00:18] <timeless> ... working w/ the WebPerf WG
  51. # [00:18] <timeless> ... i posed a list of status codes to their group
  52. # [00:18] <timeless> s/posed/posted/
  53. # [00:19] <timeless> ... now's a good time to try to get them synced
  54. # [00:19] <adrianba> q?
  55. # [00:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  56. # [00:19] <timeless> paulc: has anyone else from the TF looked at this?
  57. # [00:19] <timeless> ... I assume one of the parts of the TF will meet next week
  58. # [00:19] <timeless> ... adrianba did you have a time table?
  59. # [00:19] <timeless> adrianba: we have lots of bugs
  60. # [00:19] <timeless> chaals: yesterday would be great
  61. # [00:20] <joesteele> q+
  62. # [00:20] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  63. # [00:20] <timeless> [ crickets and popcorn ]
  64. # [00:20] <timeless> ack joesteele
  65. # [00:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  66. # [00:20] <timeless> joesteele: one of the error codes in there
  67. # [00:20] <timeless> ... service error
  68. # [00:20] <timeless> ... i shouldn't have gone through the existing errors
  69. # [00:20] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  70. # [00:20] <timeless> ... but reported the actual errors we use
  71. # [00:20] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
  72. # [00:20] <timeless> ... one distinction in errors i'd like to make
  73. # [00:21] <timeless> ... is customer service errors
  74. # [00:21] <timeless> ... and cdm errors
  75. # [00:21] <timeless> ... an end user error v. a customer's license server triggered failure
  76. # [00:21] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: WebPerf errors don't distinguish that
  77. # [00:21] <timeless> joesteele: we could distinguish errors by domain
  78. # [00:21] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: great suggestion
  79. # [00:21] <timeless> ... i don't want an incomplete set of status codes coming out of perf
  80. # [00:22] <paulc> q+
  81. # [00:22] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  82. # [00:22] <timeless> ack paulc
  83. # [00:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  84. # [00:22] <timeless> paulc: surely WebPerf isn't trying to make the one-ring-to-rule-them-all of error codes
  85. # [00:22] <timeless> ... this is about the distributed web
  86. # [00:22] <timeless> ... we want a spec that says these are some error codes
  87. # [00:22] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: we recommend the IANA registry for HTTP status codes
  88. # [00:23] <timeless> ... we proposed an additional set of error codes for DNS errors
  89. # [00:23] <timeless> ... and SSL errors
  90. # [00:23] * Joins: virginie_ (~virginie@public.cloak)
  91. # [00:23] <timeless> ... and a set of errors for when a user abandons a page
  92. # [00:23] <timeless> ... we haven't taken into account adrianba 's classes
  93. # [00:23] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: i don't want errors scattered across other specs
  94. # [00:23] <adrianba> q+
  95. # [00:23] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  96. # [00:24] <ddorwin> Currently being displayed: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2013Apr/att-0007/WebRequestStatusCodes4.html
  97. # [00:24] <timeless> paulc: what about "HTML spec" errors?
  98. # [00:24] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: if you'd like them available to the WebPerf NavigationTiming spec
  99. # [00:25] <markw> q+
  100. # [00:25] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
  101. # [00:25] <arun> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/NavigationTiming/Overview.html
  102. # [00:25] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: WebPerf WG has published specs for letting apps read counters from the browser
  103. # [00:25] <timeless> ... navigation timings
  104. # [00:25] <timeless> ... resource timings
  105. # [00:25] <timeless> ... a new spec for error logging
  106. # [00:26] <timeless> ... [for when something doesn't load from a CDN]
  107. # [00:26] <Zakim> - +1.617.966.aaaa
  108. # [00:27] <timeless> paulc: what's the link to the logging spec
  109. # [00:27] <timeless> ... and how does it relate to what other WGs are trying to do
  110. # [00:27] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: i'll post a link to the spec
  111. # [00:27] <timeless> ... it doesn't have much beyond the error codes
  112. # [00:27] <timeless> paulc: does this api simply return an error?
  113. # [00:28] <ddorwin> Web Perf Error Logging spec: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/3298bdfd617b/specs/ErrorLogging/Overview.html
  114. # [00:28] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: it returns a list of error codes, and the objects that returned the error, and when
  115. # [00:28] <timeless> ... there are two cases
  116. # [00:28] <timeless> ... one is page load
  117. # [00:28] <timeless> ... and another is for when the browser crashes
  118. # [00:29] <timeless> ... we proposed a limited subset of the data
  119. # [00:29] <timeless> ... that would be persisted
  120. # [00:29] <timeless> ... that would be returned to the source site later
  121. # [00:29] <timeless> ... that case is much more difficult
  122. # [00:29] <timeless> ... we've decided not to specify a specific persistence mechanism
  123. # [00:29] <adrianba> q?
  124. # [00:29] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
  125. # [00:29] <timeless> paulc: i'll end this discussion now
  126. # [00:29] <timeless> ... we'll give you 15 mins tomorrow
  127. # [00:30] <timeless> ... to give an intro to this spec and what it would mean to the HTML5 UA
  128. # [00:30] <timeless> ... we have time in tomorrow's schedule
  129. # [00:30] <timeless> ... i won't disagree w/ you
  130. # [00:30] <timeless> ... that if the implications are close to what i said
  131. # [00:30] <timeless> ... that this will have implications to what a UA would have to implement
  132. # [00:30] <timeless> ... we'll talk at the end of today or tomorrow morning
  133. # [00:30] <timeless> ... I tried to move of 21798
  134. # [00:30] <markw> ack markw
  135. # [00:30] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  136. # [00:30] <timeless> ... and joesteele spoke on CDM
  137. # [00:30] <timeless> ... which led to confusion on CDN
  138. # [00:31] <adrianba> q-
  139. # [00:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  140. # [00:31] <timeless> ... so, to 20668
  141. # [00:31] <timeless> s/68/88/
  142. # [00:31] <joesteele> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20688
  143. # [00:31] <timeless> adrianba: i think we need to start w/ a bit of history, unfortunately
  144. # [00:31] <timeless> ... we made a bunch of changes over time to the spec
  145. # [00:31] <timeless> ... that brought us to the situation
  146. # [00:32] <timeless> ... in our original submission to the WG
  147. # [00:32] <timeless> ... we had this notion that during the acquisition of a license
  148. # [00:32] * chaals hears "sit right back and I'll tell you a tale..."
  149. # [00:32] <timeless> ... the CDM could force the browser to fire a message to the browser
  150. # [00:32] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  151. # [00:32] <timeless> [ long complicated and roundabout ]
  152. # [00:32] * Joins: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak)
  153. # [00:32] <timeless> adrianba: it's in the bug
  154. # [00:33] <timeless> ... comment 2 in the bug says what i said
  155. # [00:33] <timeless> ... we modified the API to use a more object oriented approach
  156. # [00:33] <timeless> ... this means that, the way the messages/events are fired
  157. # [00:33] <timeless> ... is a little different than we intended at the beginning
  158. # [00:33] <timeless> ... we talked about it a few times on the call
  159. # [00:33] <timeless> ... i summarized how we were thinking about the model
  160. # [00:33] <timeless> ... but it isn't what's described in the spec
  161. # [00:33] <timeless> ... this value is about one of the events
  162. # [00:34] <timeless> ... keep "KeyAdded", be more precise about what it's for
  163. # [00:34] <timeless> ... in my model, KeyAdded means "license acquisition is complete"
  164. # [00:34] * darobin RRSAgent, pointer?
  165. # [00:34] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-irc#T22-32-25
  166. # [00:34] <timeless> ... think about it like progress events, it's like "load event"
  167. # [00:34] <timeless> ... we're done loading, and you can move on
  168. # [00:34] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  169. # [00:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  170. # [00:34] <timeless> adrianba: KeyAdded isn't saying that a key is added
  171. # [00:35] <timeless> ... but that the conversation w/ CDM is finished
  172. # [00:35] <timeless> ... ddorwin said how do you deal w/ license renewal?
  173. # [00:35] <timeless> ... sure you ended initial conversation
  174. # [00:35] <timeless> ... but later during playback, you need to refresh the license
  175. # [00:35] <timeless> ... and i suspect markw is going to comment as well
  176. # [00:35] <timeless> ... and final comment on this, this model is related to some of the other bugs
  177. # [00:35] <timeless> ... bug 19208
  178. # [00:36] <timeless> ... - asks the question about when KeyMessage should be fired
  179. # [00:36] <timeless> ... bug 16553
  180. # [00:36] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19208
  181. # [00:36] <timeless> ... - asks the question about a NeedKey event should be fired [an event before this whole process]
  182. # [00:36] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16553
  183. # [00:36] <timeless> ... resolving this lifecycle is the largest unanswered question of the spec today
  184. # [00:36] <timeless> ... that's the setup
  185. # [00:37] <timeless> ... i was hoping people would weigh in w/ other questions we'd need to answer
  186. # [00:37] <timeless> ... or suggestions about how we solve this
  187. # [00:37] <timeless> q?
  188. # [00:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  189. # [00:37] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@public.cloak)
  190. # [00:37] <markw> q+
  191. # [00:37] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  192. # [00:37] <timeless> ack markw
  193. # [00:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  194. # [00:37] <timeless> markw: i wonder whether we should take the approach
  195. # [00:37] <ddorwin> q+
  196. # [00:37] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  197. # [00:37] <timeless> ... of defining an explicit state
  198. # [00:37] <timeless> ... and defining a variable w/ the state
  199. # [00:37] <timeless> ... [a state machine]
  200. # [00:37] <timeless> ... i think we could try to make that more concrete
  201. # [00:37] <timeless> ... not sure what the states would be
  202. # [00:38] <timeless> ... maybe 3, maybe 4
  203. # [00:38] <timeless> ... i think that would make it much easier to talk about these things
  204. # [00:38] <timeless> ddorwin: even if we had a state for a session, there may be multiple message transfers in progress
  205. # [00:38] <timeless> ... between a CDM and a License server
  206. # [00:38] <adrianba> q+
  207. # [00:38] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba on the speaker queue
  208. # [00:38] <timeless> ... you could have two renewal messages for different keys
  209. # [00:39] <timeless> ... if you had a session to represent communication between a CDM and a License server
  210. # [00:39] <markw> q+
  211. # [00:39] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
  212. # [00:39] <timeless> ... you could have two in progress concurrently
  213. # [00:39] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  214. # [00:39] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
  215. # [00:39] <adrianba> q- later
  216. # [00:39] * Zakim sees markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
  217. # [00:39] <timeless> ack markw
  218. # [00:39] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  219. # [00:39] <timeless> markw: on that point
  220. # [00:39] <timeless> ... i think we could take the approach of "what are all things a CDM could want to do"
  221. # [00:39] <timeless> ... or "what is the simple state model that makes sense - and make CDMs work w/ that model"
  222. # [00:40] <timeless> ... if the CDM wants to do two things at once, it constructs a message w/ two things in it
  223. # [00:40] <ddorwin> q+ to ask What specifically does having a "completed" state gain us?
  224. # [00:40] * Zakim sees adrianba, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  225. # [00:40] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  226. # [00:40] <timeless> ... instead of us imagining everything a CDM might want to do
  227. # [00:40] <timeless> ack adrianba
  228. # [00:40] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  229. # [00:40] <joesteele> q+
  230. # [00:40] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
  231. # [00:41] <timeless> adrianba: i think we need to support two or more pending transactions to license services
  232. # [00:41] <timeless> ... no constraint on count to license server or transactions to a license server
  233. # [00:41] <timeless> ... during decoding, you could encounter a need for another key from another license server
  234. # [00:42] <timeless> ... we do need to have multiple conversations w/ a license server in flight at one time
  235. # [00:42] <timeless> ... at the beginning
  236. # [00:42] <timeless> ... at least, at some point, i had in mind that a session represented that communication
  237. # [00:42] <timeless> ... you'd have one per conversation with a license service
  238. # [00:42] <timeless> ... i think one of the problems is that we've slightly overloaded what we mean
  239. # [00:42] <markw> q+
  240. # [00:42] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
  241. # [00:42] <timeless> ... with a license service session
  242. # [00:42] <timeless> ... and think we may need to break it into multiple models
  243. # [00:42] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  244. # [00:42] <Zakim> ddorwin, you wanted to ask What specifically does having a "completed" state gain us?
  245. # [00:43] <ddorwin> What specifically does having a "completed" state gain us?
  246. # [00:43] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
  247. # [00:43] <timeless> ddorwin: you completed
  248. # [00:43] <timeless> ... and send multiple messages
  249. # [00:43] <timeless> ... what do we get from that
  250. # [00:43] <ddorwin> Maybe states for an "initialized" and "has key(s)" would be sufficient?
  251. # [00:43] <virginie_> q?
  252. # [00:43] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
  253. # [00:43] <ddorwin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20689
  254. # [00:43] <timeless> ... there's a bug about being told when you have nothing else to send to the server
  255. # [00:44] <timeless> ack joesteele
  256. # [00:44] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  257. # [00:44] <timeless> joesteele: if i have a session open
  258. # [00:44] <timeless> ... and i've done my initial exchange w/ a license server
  259. # [00:44] <timeless> ... i do one, two, three exchanges
  260. # [00:44] <johnsim> q+
  261. # [00:44] * Zakim sees markw, johnsim on the speaker queue
  262. # [00:44] <timeless> ... and then my license expires, maybe this is key renewal
  263. # [00:44] <timeless> ... the CDM knows i need to renew it
  264. # [00:44] <timeless> ... can it just send a request
  265. # [00:44] <timeless> ... is the app ready to accept that?
  266. # [00:45] <timeless> ... if i have multiple sessions going on
  267. # [00:45] <timeless> ... they can all be in this state at the same time
  268. # [00:45] <adrianba> q+
  269. # [00:45] * Zakim sees markw, johnsim, adrianba on the speaker queue
  270. # [00:45] <timeless> ... they're all independent as far as the application is concerned
  271. # [00:45] <timeless> ack markw
  272. # [00:45] * Zakim sees johnsim, adrianba on the speaker queue
  273. # [00:45] <timeless> markw: to adrianba 's concern
  274. # [00:45] <timeless> ... about multiple sessions
  275. # [00:45] <timeless> ... and key messages
  276. # [00:45] <timeless> ... we left it open for different CDMs to do it different ways
  277. # [00:45] <timeless> ... you could file NeedKey
  278. # [00:45] <timeless> ... or ...
  279. # [00:46] <timeless> ... I think it's best to just pick a model
  280. # [00:46] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  281. # [00:46] <timeless> ddorwin: i think with CreateSession we said there was one way
  282. # [00:46] <timeless> ack johnsim
  283. # [00:46] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  284. # [00:46] <timeless> johnsim: it's important that the states the CDM goes through
  285. # [00:46] <timeless> ... that the application needs to know about
  286. # [00:46] <timeless> ... are signaled/ known about by the application
  287. # [00:46] <timeless> ... w/o a state diagram, it's hard for the application
  288. # [00:47] <timeless> ... i think that's the missing piece
  289. # [00:47] <timeless> ... wrt how a session is defined
  290. # [00:47] <timeless> ... i think you can't let the way a session is defined be CDM specific
  291. # [00:47] <timeless> ... because then an application won't be able to have a CDM agnostic behavior
  292. # [00:48] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  293. # [00:48] <timeless> paulc: you're saying something like what markw said
  294. # [00:48] <timeless> ... abstract to the simplest number of cases
  295. # [00:48] <timeless> ... and then a CDM may have to change its behavior to match our model
  296. # [00:48] <timeless> johnsim: three things
  297. # [00:48] <timeless> ... 1. define the states any CDM will go through that an app needs to know about
  298. # [00:48] <timeless> ... - CDMs can go through states an app doesn't care about
  299. # [00:49] <joesteele> q+
  300. # [00:49] * Zakim sees adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
  301. # [00:49] <timeless> ... for any state an app needs to know about, document it in a generic way
  302. # [00:49] <timeless> ... providing events for the application
  303. # [00:49] <timeless> ... 2. define it in such a way, that two different CDMs by different providers
  304. # [00:49] <timeless> ... behave the same way wrt event pattern
  305. # [00:49] <ddorwin> q+ to ask What states do we need/care about? Do we need states if the application knows exactly what it needs to do for a given event? Rephrasing what I asked earlier, do we need one of those states to be "closed"/"ended"?
  306. # [00:49] * Zakim sees adrianba, joesteele, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  307. # [00:49] <timeless> s/three/two/
  308. # [00:50] <timeless> paulc: if we take it at face value that you're right, johnsim
  309. # [00:50] <timeless> ... then we need to know which states the App needs to know about
  310. # [00:50] <timeless> ... what are those states?
  311. # [00:50] <timeless> johnsim: the current spec doesn't define those states
  312. # [00:50] <timeless> ... as much as they're implicit in the event model
  313. # [00:50] <timeless> paulc: and that was markw 's point
  314. # [00:50] <timeless> ... if we defined the points, it would help
  315. # [00:50] <timeless> ack adrianba
  316. # [00:50] * Zakim sees joesteele, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  317. # [00:50] <timeless> adrianba: i like markw 's suggestion of having a state variable
  318. # [00:51] <timeless> ... with clearly defined values
  319. # [00:51] <timeless> ... and i think ddorwin 's suggestion of having
  320. # [00:51] <timeless> ... what i described as Finished
  321. # [00:51] <timeless> ... actually indicate "reached steady state"
  322. # [00:51] <joesteele> q-
  323. # [00:51] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  324. # [00:51] <timeless> ... the proposal i sort of hinted at in the bug
  325. # [00:51] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
  326. # [00:51] <timeless> ... was to provide a set of events based on progress events
  327. # [00:51] <timeless> ... idea would be, an event fires
  328. # [00:51] <timeless> ... to indicate that the session was initialized
  329. # [00:52] <timeless> ... "load start" equivalent
  330. # [00:52] <timeless> ... what we have for KeyMessage would be the equivalent of "progress"
  331. # [00:52] <timeless> ... and we would fire an equivalent of "loaded" for when KeyAdded was in the proposal
  332. # [00:52] <timeless> ... to indicate that the session was established
  333. # [00:52] <timeless> ... you may still get future key messages for renewal
  334. # [00:52] <timeless> ... but the initial conversation was done
  335. # [00:53] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  336. # [00:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
  337. # [00:53] <timeless> adrianba: i'm not sure we'd need to be explicit about Expired or some other reason for a Renewal
  338. # [00:53] <adrianba> q?
  339. # [00:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  340. # [00:53] <timeless> ack ddorwin
  341. # [00:53] <Zakim> ddorwin, you wanted to ask What states do we need/care about? Do we need states if the application knows exactly what it needs to do for a given event? Rephrasing what I asked
  342. # [00:53] <Zakim> ... earlier, do we need one of those states to be "closed"/"ended"?
  343. # [00:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  344. # [00:53] <markw> q+ to say how keyrelease fits into this model
  345. # [00:53] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  346. # [00:54] <timeless> ddorwin: it's currently stateless
  347. # [00:54] <timeless> ... you get a key message
  348. # [00:54] * Quits: Mark_Vickers (~Mark_Vickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  349. # [00:54] <timeless> ... get something from the server, pass it back
  350. # [00:54] <timeless> ... works for initialized
  351. # [00:54] <timeless> ... Otherwise, i like adrianba 's states
  352. # [00:54] <timeless> adrianba: one reason i think we need something like loaded
  353. # [00:54] <ddorwin> What states do apps need/care about? Do we need states if the application knows exactly what it needs to do for a given event? Rephrasing what I asked earlier, do we need one of those states to be "closed"/"ended"? If not, then just responding to events may be sufficient.
  354. # [00:54] <timeless> ... is one of the bugs i called out before
  355. # [00:55] * timeless ddorwin : if you q+ to say something, then Zakim 's reminder to say it appears in the logs
  356. # [00:55] <timeless> q?
  357. # [00:55] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
  358. # [00:55] <timeless> ack markw
  359. # [00:55] <Zakim> markw, you wanted to say how keyrelease fits into this model
  360. # [00:55] * Quits: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  361. # [00:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  362. # [00:56] <timeless> markw: if we define a bunch of states
  363. # [00:56] <timeless> ... and discover that the states are implicit from the message sequence
  364. # [00:56] <joesteele> q+
  365. # [00:56] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  366. # [00:56] <timeless> ... we could leave them in or rip them out
  367. # [00:56] <timeless> ... adrianba mentioned keyrelease
  368. # [00:56] <timeless> ... in that state, if the CDM supports "proof of key release"
  369. # [00:56] <timeless> ... then it's in the position to give you that proof
  370. # [00:56] <timeless> ... and we define what happens for that state transition
  371. # [00:56] <ddorwin> q+
  372. # [00:56] * Zakim sees joesteele, ddorwin on the speaker queue
  373. # [00:57] <timeless> paulc: doing a state transition model is important
  374. # [00:57] <timeless> ... so that people can understand what's going on
  375. # [00:57] <timeless> markw: discovering if the implicit thing works or not
  376. # [00:57] <timeless> ... is to be explict
  377. # [00:57] <timeless> ack joesteele
  378. # [00:57] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  379. # [00:57] <timeless> joesteele: adrianba 's point
  380. # [00:57] <timeless> ... there's one state needed that isn't implicit
  381. # [00:57] <timeless> ... if a CDM already has a particular key w/o key exchange
  382. # [00:58] <timeless> ... then you want the application to not get a keyrequest message
  383. # [00:58] <timeless> s/not get/not wait to get/
  384. # [00:58] <ddorwin> My summary of (my understanding of) Adrian's proposal:
  385. # [00:58] <ddorwin> States: Uninitialized, initialized ("loadstart"), keymessage ("progress"), keyadded replacement ("loaded")
  386. # [00:58] <ddorwin> I think the last three might be events. The first state is probably implicit.
  387. # [00:58] <ddorwin> The keyadded replacement could be useful for a case where the CDM immediately initializes a session with existing material.
  388. # [00:59] <timeless> ddorwin: the events in quotes are video equivalents
  389. # [00:59] <timeless> ... keyadded is already going to be renamed
  390. # [00:59] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  391. # [00:59] <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, CyrilRa
  392. # [00:59] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  393. # [01:00] <timeless> paulc: we need to decide if someone is going to write a proposal
  394. # [01:00] <adrianba> q?
  395. # [01:00] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
  396. # [01:00] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
  397. # [01:00] <timeless> ... someone writes a state diagram and shows if it maps
  398. # [01:00] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  399. # [01:00] <timeless> ... and if not ...
  400. # [01:00] <ddorwin> ack ddorwin
  401. # [01:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  402. # [01:00] <timeless> ... will someone do this?
  403. # [01:00] <timeless> [ paulc lists a bunch of bug numbers ]
  404. # [01:00] <timeless> paulc: there's probably a bug on key release
  405. # [01:00] <timeless> ... adrianba, ddorwin, do you know the next steps?
  406. # [01:01] <timeless> adrianba: it feels like we've made progress in this discussion
  407. # [01:01] <timeless> ... i think the editors have enough to get together
  408. # [01:01] <timeless> ... to make a proposal back to the group
  409. # [01:01] <johnsim> q+
  410. # [01:01] * Zakim sees johnsim on the speaker queue
  411. # [01:04] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  412. # [01:04] <timeless> ack johnsim
  413. # [01:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  414. # [01:04] <timeless> johnsim: one of the things, you already have a key
  415. # [01:04] * Quits: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  416. # [01:04] <timeless> ... e.g. from a store
  417. # [01:04] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  418. # [01:04] * Joins: divya (~Adium@public.cloak)
  419. # [01:04] <timeless> ... there could be a case where the app wants to force the CDM to make an acquisition
  420. # [01:04] <timeless> ... a CDM could make a License server request
  421. # [01:04] <timeless> ... but CDMs can also make a disk protected key
  422. # [01:04] <adrianba> q+
  423. # [01:04] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  424. # [01:04] <timeless> ... some applications might want to force the CDM to get a new key from the License server
  425. # [01:04] <timeless> ... if you support getting a key from the disk
  426. # [01:04] <timeless> ... you need to give the app a way to specify if it permits using a key from the disk
  427. # [01:04] <joesteele> q+
  428. # [01:04] * Zakim sees adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
  429. # [01:04] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  430. # [01:04] <timeless> adrianba: i'd like johnsim to file a new bug on this
  431. # [01:04] <timeless> ... to make sure we don't lose it
  432. # [01:04] <timeless> ... proposal i will then make in that bug
  433. # [01:04] <timeless> ... maybe when the event fires to indicate that the session is loaded
  434. # [01:05] <timeless> ... it's possible we want to provide some indication of how it got to that point
  435. # [01:05] <timeless> ... e.g. if it did it through cached key material
  436. # [01:05] <timeless> ... the application could do something
  437. # [01:05] <timeless> ack joesteele
  438. # [01:05] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  439. # [01:05] <ddorwin> alternatively, tag the keymessage to indicate "already in progress"
  440. # [01:05] <timeless> ack adrianba
  441. # [01:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  442. # [01:05] <timeless> joesteele: specific case is renewing a set of entitlements before going offline
  443. # [01:05] <markw> How about this: http://www.websequencediagrams.com/cgi-bin/cdraw?lz=dGl0bGUgQ0RNIFN0YXRlIFByb2dyZXNzaW9uCgpub3RlIG92ZXIgQ0RNOiBVbmluaXRpYWxpemVkAA8OLCBBcHA6IHRpbWUgcGFzc2VzAC0QSQAzCGFlZApDRE0tPgAtBWtleW1lc3NhZ2UKQXBwLT4AZAV1cGRhdGUoKQpvcHQAAyllbgCBBQ86IHJlYWR5AIEUFXBsYXliYWNrACQ-AD0QAIE4CmNsb3NlKCkAgjIQABIFAIFpFiAoa2V5IHJlbGVhc2UpAIF5FA&s=napkin
  444. # [01:05] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  445. # [01:05] <timeless> ... if i'm about to go offline
  446. # [01:06] <timeless> ... i thought about offline content long ago
  447. # [01:06] <timeless> ... and decided not to file it
  448. # [01:06] <timeless> ... because offline playback in the browser wasn't a UC under discussion at the time
  449. # [01:06] <timeless> paulc: offline entitlements are different, or just cover more time?
  450. # [01:06] <timeless> joesteele: cover more time
  451. # [01:07] <timeless> paulc: you'll be disconnected, and can't get a renew
  452. # [01:07] <timeless> ... you'd say "give me one now", and it will last longer
  453. # [01:07] <timeless> johnsim: even in the live video case
  454. # [01:07] <timeless> ... or OnDemandVideo
  455. # [01:07] <timeless> ... you're playing content from the web
  456. # [01:07] <timeless> ... you're allowing for local key storage
  457. # [01:07] <timeless> ... the main reason why i felt it needed to be addressed
  458. # [01:08] <timeless> ... i knew in general, such a UC is very common in DRM systems
  459. # [01:08] <paulc> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16540
  460. # [01:08] <timeless> ... we shouldn't restrict what we're doing in EME to what we're trying to do now for OnDemandVideo
  461. # [01:08] <timeless> adrianba: this is one joesteele wanted us to talk about
  462. # [01:08] <timeless> joesteele: my concern with this
  463. # [01:08] <timeless> ... the bug is confusing to read now
  464. # [01:09] <timeless> ... about how you're supposed to use the key system
  465. # [01:09] <timeless> ... 1. can we roll capabilities into it
  466. # [01:09] <timeless> ... it was split out, and we decided not to do that in the key system
  467. # [01:09] <timeless> ... 2. verisioning
  468. # [01:09] <timeless> ... UC was to request a specific version of a CDM
  469. # [01:09] <timeless> ... a particular version of a CDM may have a feature an earlier one did not
  470. # [01:09] * Parts: jgay (~jgay@public.cloak)
  471. # [01:09] <timeless> ... a particular version of a CDM may have been breached
  472. # [01:09] <timeless> ... want to avoid using those
  473. # [01:09] <timeless> s/want/- want/
  474. # [01:10] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
  475. # [01:10] <timeless> ... i was thinking we'd register com.adobe.access and com.adobe.access.v{n}
  476. # [01:10] <timeless> ... so we could request the latest one and the generic one
  477. # [01:10] <timeless> ... does that make sense?
  478. # [01:10] <adrianba> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#key-system
  479. # [01:10] <timeless> paulc: is versioning mention in the bug?
  480. # [01:10] <timeless> ddorwin: you have to look at the spec
  481. # [01:11] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  482. # [01:11] <gitbot> [html] rubys pushed 2 new commits to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/f57d22e46108...31bbb5f68cbf
  483. # [01:11] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg e2287ae ianh: [e] (0) Try to clarify use of the term 'expose' in the WebIDL sense....
  484. # [01:11] <gitbot> html/feature/whatwg 31bbb5f ianh: [e] (0) Remove redundant requirements....
  485. # [01:11] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  486. # [01:11] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  487. # [01:11] <adrianba> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#dom-istypesupported
  488. # [01:11] <timeless> paulc: your proposal was appending something to example com.example.somesystem.1 and com.example.somesystem.1_5
  489. # [01:12] <timeless> paulc: this is obscure being linked to this particular bug
  490. # [01:12] <timeless> adrianba: i pasted another link that talks about this
  491. # [01:12] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
  492. # [01:12] * Quits: virginie_ (~virginie@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  493. # [01:12] <timeless> ... joesteele was talking about isTypeSupported()
  494. # [01:12] <timeless> ... the original design is that
  495. # [01:12] <timeless> ... you could make a request isTypeSupported( com.example.somesystem )
  496. # [01:12] <timeless> ... that would return true if the general system is supported
  497. # [01:12] <timeless> ... if no, you wouldn't interrogate further
  498. # [01:13] <timeless> ... if yes, you could ask about v1, v1.5
  499. # [01:13] <timeless> ... i think the question raised in this bug is
  500. # [01:13] <timeless> ... do we need to add
  501. # [01:13] <timeless> ... text to the spec that describes this more
  502. # [01:13] <timeless> ... gives greater guidelines
  503. # [01:13] <timeless> ... is this pattern something that's actually neede
  504. # [01:13] <timeless> s/neede/needed/
  505. # [01:13] <timeless> ... or is it something down to the CDM?
  506. # [01:13] <timeless> ... it's unlikely that you'd write code that follows this pattern in a generic way
  507. # [01:14] <timeless> ... since the capabilities of different versions will be different across different systems
  508. # [01:14] <timeless> paulc: joesteele, is the system powerful enough to use in the way you want to use
  509. # [01:14] <timeless> joesteele: yes, it's probably overkill than what we'd want
  510. # [01:14] <timeless> ... we could live w/ an explicit string match
  511. # [01:14] <timeless> ... having browsers do this is more than we'd need
  512. # [01:14] <timeless> chaals: this code assumes linear progression
  513. # [01:14] <timeless> ... and you want hasMinimumVersion()
  514. # [01:15] <timeless> ... is that likely to be a pattern?
  515. # [01:15] <timeless> paulc: i'll take anything after version 3?
  516. # [01:15] <timeless> chaals: if IE3
  517. # [01:15] <timeless> adrianba: and the people that do, we're trying to shoot
  518. # [01:16] <timeless> ... it's no coincidence that this is tied to the other bug about capability detection
  519. # [01:16] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  520. # [01:16] <timeless> ... no coincidence that we'd park that bug until we decided on what we need to detect
  521. # [01:16] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  522. # [01:16] <timeless> ... maybe we can say we don't need this sophisticated approach
  523. # [01:17] <timeless> ... maybe we can push toward feature detection instead of particular versions
  524. # [01:17] <timeless> chaals: did you discover trying to push people to feature detection
  525. # [01:17] <timeless> ... because people did version detection?
  526. # [01:17] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
  527. # [01:17] <timeless> ... are we opening up a way for authors to make mistakes early?
  528. # [01:17] <timeless> adrianba: maybe
  529. # [01:17] <timeless> ... i'd rather try to catch it early than try to predict and get it wrong
  530. # [01:17] <timeless> chaals: i think i'd like to do the same
  531. # [01:18] <timeless> paulc: enough discussion on 16540?
  532. # [01:18] <timeless> ... sounds like simple string matches
  533. # [01:18] <timeless> ... if we aren't doing capabilities
  534. # [01:18] <timeless> ... after that, you can use another mechanism
  535. # [01:18] <timeless> ... next is 19009
  536. # [01:18] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19009
  537. # [01:19] <timeless> adrianba: we discussed this on a call
  538. # [01:19] <timeless> ... the minutes didn't really
  539. # [01:19] <timeless> ... describe a conclusion
  540. # [01:19] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@public.cloak)
  541. # [01:19] <timeless> paulc: these are the minutes in comment 6?
  542. # [01:19] <timeless> adrianba: yes, but it points to a not useful, but lengthy discussion
  543. # [01:19] <timeless> ... conclusion i think we reached
  544. # [01:19] <timeless> ... was that we should add a note to the spec
  545. # [01:20] <timeless> ... that some implementations might require the media keys be attached to a media element before the event sequence would take place on a session
  546. # [01:20] <timeless> ... this is somewhat tangentially related to the original bug
  547. # [01:20] <timeless> ... i think that conclusion means that we're ok to
  548. # [01:20] <timeless> ... follow the pattern we have right now
  549. # [01:20] <timeless> ... make it so that implementations may throw an exception if they don't support media keys being shared across multiple elements
  550. # [01:20] <timeless> ... that's likely for initial implementations
  551. # [01:21] <timeless> ... important thing is that we need to add a note about requiring attachment
  552. # [01:21] <timeless> paulc: action?
  553. # [01:21] <timeless> adrianba: action is to edit the spec w/ the note
  554. # [01:21] <timeless> ... just wanted to clarify that this is the next action
  555. # [01:21] <timeless> ... and give people a chance to comment if they disagree
  556. # [01:21] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  557. # [01:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  558. # [01:21] * Joins: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak)
  559. # [01:21] <timeless> paulc: any last things to address?
  560. # [01:21] <timeless> ddorwin: 20335
  561. # [01:22] <ddorwin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20335
  562. # [01:22] <timeless> ... canPlayType
  563. # [01:22] <timeless> ... supports "", "maybe", "probably"
  564. # [01:22] <timeless> ... initially in MSE, we have isTypeSupported
  565. # [01:22] <timeless> ... should we also return boolean?
  566. # [01:22] <timeless> ... does anyone support canPlayType()s 3 states, none of which are true
  567. # [01:22] <timeless> ... anyone have an opinion?
  568. # [01:22] <johnsim> q+
  569. # [01:22] * Zakim sees johnsim on the speaker queue
  570. # [01:23] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  571. # [01:23] <timeless> paulc: if we change it to a boolean, the probably case goes away?
  572. # [01:23] <timeless> [ maybe ]
  573. # [01:23] <timeless> paulc: what's the UC for Probably?
  574. # [01:23] <timeless> q
  575. # [01:23] <timeless> s/q//
  576. # [01:23] <timeless> q?
  577. # [01:23] * Zakim sees johnsim on the speaker queue
  578. # [01:23] <adrianba> q+
  579. # [01:23] * Zakim sees johnsim, adrianba on the speaker queue
  580. # [01:24] <timeless> ack johnsim
  581. # [01:24] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  582. # [01:24] <chaals> q+ bobl
  583. # [01:24] * Zakim sees adrianba, bobl on the speaker queue
  584. # [01:24] <timeless> johnsim: Probably/Maybe concepts
  585. # [01:24] <chaals> q- adrianba later
  586. # [01:24] * Zakim sees bobl on the speaker queue
  587. # [01:24] <timeless> ... is ...
  588. # [01:24] <chaals> q+ adrianba
  589. # [01:24] * Zakim sees bobl, adrianba on the speaker queue
  590. # [01:24] <timeless> ... you can't tell from media util you play it whether you can really play it
  591. # [01:24] <timeless> ... it isn't just searching for attributes
  592. # [01:24] <timeless> ... i don't see a case where any uncertainty should reside
  593. # [01:24] <timeless> ... as to whether or not content is decryptable by that key system
  594. # [01:24] <joesteele> q+
  595. # [01:24] * Zakim sees bobl, adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
  596. # [01:25] <timeless> ... you don't know if the license server will honor the request for the key
  597. # [01:25] <timeless> ddorwin: we pass in the container as well
  598. # [01:25] <timeless> ack BobLund
  599. # [01:25] * Zakim sees bobl, adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
  600. # [01:25] <timeless> ack b
  601. # [01:25] * Zakim sees adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
  602. # [01:25] <timeless> BobLund: canPlayType
  603. # [01:25] <timeless> ... probably is meant to say "does the UA support mime type"
  604. # [01:25] * Joins: virginie_ (~virginie@public.cloak)
  605. # [01:26] <timeless> ... whether UA can decrypt it is irrelevant to canPlayType
  606. # [01:26] <timeless> ack adrianba
  607. # [01:26] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  608. # [01:26] <timeless> adrianba: i wanted to describe two alternatives
  609. # [01:26] <timeless> ... spec has isTypeSupported as a boolean
  610. # [01:26] <timeless> ... you use this method to answer
  611. # [01:26] <timeless> ... "does the UA support decrypting content in this format using this content protection system"
  612. # [01:26] <timeless> ... if the UA says "probably" or "maybe"
  613. # [01:26] <timeless> ... and you add in the content type
  614. # [01:27] <timeless> ... and key system
  615. # [01:27] <timeless> ... might you get the same answer as canPlayType
  616. # [01:27] <timeless> ... otoh, supporting canPlayType and isTypeSupported
  617. # [01:27] <timeless> ... then a bool would work
  618. # [01:27] * timeless runs around in circles
  619. # [01:27] <timeless> ... what does an app do differently if it sees maybe or probably?
  620. # [01:28] <timeless> ... it's just going to try to play the content
  621. # [01:28] <adrianba> q?
  622. # [01:28] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
  623. # [01:28] <timeless> ... if you know definitively that it won't work, you probably try the next content
  624. # [01:28] <timeless> ... but if you know it's potentially supported
  625. # [01:28] * Joins: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
  626. # [01:28] <timeless> ... then you probably just try to play it
  627. # [01:28] <ddorwin> There are probably less random formats to deal with in EME as well.
  628. # [01:28] <timeless> joesteele: we'd probably prefer a boolean
  629. # [01:28] <timeless> ... yes it may fail
  630. # [01:28] <timeless> ... it may mean it can't play that instance, but just that instance
  631. # [01:28] <timeless> paulc: hearing a bool pref
  632. # [01:29] * Joins: danielfi_ (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
  633. # [01:29] * Quits: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  634. # [01:29] <timeless> ... anyone can give us an example of why it shouldn't be a boolean
  635. # [01:29] <timeless> joesteele: you ask about a mime type
  636. # [01:29] <timeless> paulc: and i can give you a mislabeled stream
  637. # [01:29] <timeless> ... ddorwin you asked about this type
  638. # [01:29] <timeless> ... did i get you an answer?
  639. # [01:30] <timeless> ... and don't say "probably" or "maybe"
  640. # [01:30] <timeless> [ laughter ]
  641. # [01:30] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  642. # [01:30] <timeless> Topic: First Public Working Draft status
  643. # [01:31] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Feb/0123.html
  644. # [01:31] <timeless> paulc: we asked about whether something was in scope
  645. # [01:31] <timeless> ... eventually ruled it was in scope
  646. # [01:31] <timeless> ... whether FPWD contained enough to be implemented interoperably
  647. # [01:32] <timeless> ... we asked for clear and specific bug reports in Bugzilla by Feb 15
  648. # [01:32] <timeless> ... once that was complete, we were going to seek answer from editors on how to proceed
  649. # [01:32] <timeless> ... process bar for FPWD is fairly low
  650. # [01:32] <timeless> ... when we reevaluate request to publish
  651. # [01:32] <timeless> ... we'd only consider things based on bugs
  652. # [01:32] <timeless> ... but no requirement of reaching 0 bugs
  653. # [01:33] <timeless> ... TF received approximately 15 bugs
  654. # [01:33] <timeless> ... in the window
  655. # [01:33] <timeless> ... i provided a summary on the Media TF
  656. # [01:33] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Apr/0089.html
  657. # [01:33] <timeless> ... my first email goes over the history
  658. # [01:33] <timeless> s/15/13/
  659. # [01:34] <timeless> ... it's a bit hard to give concise status of bugs
  660. # [01:34] <timeless> ... it's hard to handle REOPENed
  661. # [01:35] <timeless> ... the respondent disagreed with being able to take a document to FPWD with bugs open
  662. # [01:35] <timeless> ... some respondents have commented on everything as "i disagree"
  663. # [01:35] <timeless> ... which makes it hard to have a dialog
  664. # [01:35] <timeless> s/dialog/dialogue/
  665. # [01:35] <timeless> ... for 20944
  666. # [01:35] <timeless> ... - we left it open and proposed to add a SOTD
  667. # [01:35] <timeless> ... i think we did this for 2 or 3
  668. # [01:35] <timeless> adrianba: 3
  669. # [01:35] <timeless> paulc: we believe there's technical merit in the comment
  670. # [01:35] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  671. # [01:36] <timeless> ... but we don't believe it should stop us from going to FPWD
  672. # [01:36] <timeless> ... we resolved several as WONTFIX
  673. # [01:36] <timeless> ... i included link to bug and editor's response explaining why
  674. # [01:36] <timeless> ... - which typically includes the link to the minutes
  675. # [01:36] <timeless> ... here's one w/ needsinfo
  676. # [01:36] <timeless> ... - which was reopened w/ no new info
  677. # [01:36] <timeless> ... a couple were resolved worksforme
  678. # [01:36] <timeless> ... - we took an appropriate action
  679. # [01:37] <timeless> ... 20965 and 20966 were SOTD items
  680. # [01:37] <timeless> ... one we resolved as a duplicate
  681. # [01:37] <timeless> ... and one as later
  682. # [01:37] <timeless> ... several of these bugs have been reopened by the correspondent on a regular basis
  683. # [01:37] <timeless> ... even if the correspondent didn't change the status of the bug
  684. # [01:38] <timeless> ... all of these bugs are attempts to characterize why not to do EME in the HTML WG
  685. # [01:38] <timeless> ... there are more filed after the bug-window
  686. # [01:38] <timeless> ... there are probably 4 or 5 more
  687. # [01:38] <timeless> ... the people against this work being done in the WG
  688. # [01:38] <timeless> ... when their current arguments fail
  689. # [01:38] <timeless> ... they find new arguments
  690. # [01:39] <timeless> paulc: the TF + editors have responded to chairs
  691. # [01:39] <timeless> ... based on the bugs in the window to Feb 15
  692. # [01:39] <timeless> ... i think it's germane for the chairs to review if the bugs have been dealt w/ adequately
  693. # [01:39] <timeless> ... and decide if we can replay the CfC
  694. # [01:39] <timeless> ... or decide if the document can be published
  695. # [01:40] <timeless> rubys: i don't think CfC is the right step
  696. # [01:40] <timeless> ... we don't need Consensus per process
  697. # [01:40] <plh> q+
  698. # [01:40] * Zakim sees joesteele, plh on the speaker queue
  699. # [01:40] <timeless> ... having read the bugs, i don't think we have questions
  700. # [01:40] <timeless> paulc: i want to be fair to my cochairs and apologize to the TF
  701. # [01:40] * Parts: divya (~Adium@public.cloak) (divya)
  702. # [01:40] <timeless> ... this has been on my plate for a while
  703. # [01:40] <timeless> ... i told rubys and mjs that i sent this after lunch
  704. # [01:41] <timeless> ... the appropriate step is for chairs to take this under advisement and report back to the WG
  705. # [01:41] <timeless> ... mjs, there's a lot of reading
  706. # [01:41] <timeless> ... do any of the 3 editors of EME want to comment?
  707. # [01:41] <timeless> ... did i summarize this accurately?
  708. # [01:41] <timeless> adrianba: yes, good summary
  709. # [01:41] <timeless> ... we call out 3 of the bugs in SOTD
  710. # [01:41] <timeless> ... two issues:
  711. # [01:42] <timeless> ... 1. degree to which spec supports interop between implementations
  712. # [01:42] <timeless> ... 2. issue around privacy considerations
  713. # [01:42] <timeless> ... from discussions we've gone through these bugs
  714. # [01:42] <timeless> ... i think we've made progress on privacy
  715. # [01:42] * Quits: danielfi_ (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  716. # [01:42] <timeless> ... my suggestion for privacy is to add a section to the spec which is privacy considerations for CDMs
  717. # [01:42] <timeless> ... people in WG asked if the current API would support some privacy related situations
  718. # [01:42] <timeless> ... some of the cases I believe are already handled
  719. # [01:43] <timeless> ... beyond guidance to CDMs
  720. # [01:43] <timeless> ... which we'd add in an informative way
  721. # [01:43] <timeless> ... does anyone see API changes necessary for privacy aspects
  722. # [01:43] <timeless> paulc: has that direction been reflected in the bug at all?
  723. # [01:43] <timeless> adrianba: no, we need to update the bug
  724. # [01:43] <timeless> paulc: that would be useful, if you could do that post-facto to this discussion
  725. # [01:43] <plh> q?
  726. # [01:43] * Zakim sees joesteele, plh on the speaker queue
  727. # [01:43] <timeless> ... chairs will use my summary as the response to the CfC
  728. # [01:44] <timeless> ... and we'll get back to editors+TF as soon as possible
  729. # [01:44] <timeless> q- joesteele
  730. # [01:44] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  731. # [01:44] <timeless> ack plh
  732. # [01:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  733. # [01:44] <timeless> plh: if i heard chairs correctly
  734. # [01:44] <timeless> ... we may not have a new CfC
  735. # [01:44] <timeless> rubys: statement i made, not a chair statement
  736. # [01:44] <timeless> plh: my concern is if it will surprise the group if we don't have a CfC
  737. # [01:44] <timeless> mjs: we have past precedent for CfC to publish a WD
  738. # [01:45] <timeless> ... and having done a good faith effort, we said "with these addressed, it was ok to publish"
  739. # [01:45] <timeless> ... if we wanted to follow W3 process
  740. # [01:45] <timeless> ... we could have a formal vote
  741. # [01:45] <timeless> [ paulc reads from previous chairs CfC response ]
  742. # [01:46] <timeless> rubys: i sent an email on the 24th
  743. # [01:46] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  744. # [01:46] <timeless> ... ~consensus is not a requirement for publication~
  745. # [01:46] <wseltzer> q+
  746. # [01:46] * Zakim sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
  747. # [01:46] * Joins: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak)
  748. # [01:46] <timeless> steve: are chairs saying
  749. # [01:47] <timeless> ... there will be a FPWD
  750. # [01:47] <timeless> rubys: still deciding
  751. # [01:47] <timeless> steve: and that decision will not be a CfC?
  752. # [01:47] <timeless> rubys: my input is it probably will not be
  753. # [01:47] <timeless> paulc: it won't be public
  754. # [01:47] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
  755. # [01:47] <timeless> ack wseltzer
  756. # [01:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  757. # [01:47] <timeless> wseltzer: Wendy Seltzer
  758. # [01:47] <timeless> ... noting that the response to several of the bugs
  759. # [01:48] <timeless> ... ~CDMs are out of scope for this document~
  760. # [01:48] <timeless> ... several seem to be things people are complaining about
  761. # [01:48] <timeless> ... are things required of CDMs
  762. # [01:48] <timeless> ... but not things above them
  763. # [01:48] <adrianba> q+
  764. # [01:48] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  765. # [01:48] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak)
  766. # [01:48] <markw> q+
  767. # [01:48] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
  768. # [01:48] <timeless> ... would it be ok for them to file bugs asking for CDMs to be brought into scope
  769. # [01:48] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Apr/0053.html
  770. # [01:48] <timeless> ... this is requiring activity but not specifying it
  771. # [01:48] * Joins: mjs_ (~mjs@public.cloak)
  772. # [01:48] <mjs_> q+
  773. # [01:48] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw, mjs_ on the speaker queue
  774. # [01:48] <timeless> ack adrianba
  775. # [01:48] * Zakim sees markw, mjs_ on the speaker queue
  776. # [01:49] <timeless> paulc: i'd like to thank chaals for his leg-work
  777. # [01:49] <timeless> [ applause ]
  778. # [01:49] <timeless> adrianba: it's true there were a number of bugs
  779. # [01:49] <timeless> ... commenting on CDMs being out of scope of the EME spec
  780. # [01:49] <timeless> ... it's true that this is the design of the EME spec
  781. # [01:49] <timeless> ... EME is designed to abstract away CDMs
  782. # [01:49] <timeless> ... to provide a common api for CDMs
  783. # [01:50] <timeless> ... and provide a common api for that abstraction
  784. # [01:50] <timeless> ... W3 decided that such an API was within scope for the WG
  785. # [01:50] <timeless> ... EME spec is a solution for the problem
  786. # [01:50] <timeless> ... it isn't the only way to solve the problem
  787. # [01:50] <timeless> ... someone who believes the full capabilities should be w/in scope
  788. # [01:50] <timeless> ... may write the spec
  789. # [01:50] <timeless> ... to try to address a spec that by design isn't in scope
  790. # [01:50] <timeless> ... is essentially saying throw away the spec and start again
  791. # [01:50] <timeless> ack markw
  792. # [01:50] * Zakim sees mjs_ on the speaker queue
  793. # [01:51] <timeless> markw: we could add something to say what we mean by CDMs being out of scope
  794. # [01:51] <timeless> ... we don't define the APIs that the CDM might support
  795. # [01:51] <timeless> ... it has key messages, we talk about a state machine
  796. # [01:51] <timeless> ... we say CDM is out of scope
  797. # [01:51] <timeless> ... but we define a bit about how you talk to it
  798. # [01:51] <chaals> q+
  799. # [01:51] * Zakim sees mjs_, chaals on the speaker queue
  800. # [01:51] <timeless> ... it sounds like defining part of CDM
  801. # [01:51] <timeless> ack mjs_
  802. # [01:51] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  803. # [01:51] <timeless> mjs_: re: what is exactly required for CDMs
  804. # [01:51] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  805. # [01:52] <timeless> ... i think there's one bug left open
  806. # [01:52] <timeless> ... with an issue note in the spec
  807. # [01:52] <timeless> ... 20944
  808. # [01:52] <timeless> ... EME sure do more to ensure CDM level interop
  809. # [01:52] <timeless> ... there's been a lot of discussion in that bug
  810. # [01:52] <timeless> ... many of the other bugs were roundabout ways to get at the same issue
  811. # [01:52] <timeless> ... i think it's best of have one bug for that matter
  812. # [01:52] <timeless> ... ---
  813. # [01:52] <timeless> mjs_: a more procedural issue
  814. # [01:52] <timeless> ... 21016
  815. # [01:52] <timeless> ... ClearKey
  816. # [01:53] <timeless> ... - i don't care much about the bug actually
  817. # [01:53] <timeless> ... our usual approach for LATER is to use only for "not this current version of this spec"
  818. # [01:53] <adrianba> q+
  819. # [01:53] * Zakim sees chaals, adrianba on the speaker queue
  820. # [01:53] <timeless> ... i assume we'll have implementation experience by CR
  821. # [01:53] <timeless> ... i'd propose keeping the bug open
  822. # [01:53] <timeless> ... and having an implementation marker
  823. # [01:54] <timeless> q?
  824. # [01:54] * Zakim sees chaals, adrianba on the speaker queue
  825. # [01:54] <timeless> ack chaals
  826. # [01:54] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
  827. # [01:54] <timeless> chaals: instead of writing an entire spec from scratch
  828. # [01:54] <timeless> ... they could propose a modified version of the spec
  829. # [01:54] <timeless> ... which modifies the scoping
  830. # [01:54] <timeless> ... if you modify the proposal for a tower
  831. # [01:54] <timeless> ... to have the tower have an antenna on top
  832. # [01:54] <timeless> ack adrianba
  833. # [01:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  834. # [01:55] <timeless> adrianba: could you start from EME and add in a CDM
  835. # [01:55] <timeless> ... and remove the abstraction of CDM
  836. # [01:55] <timeless> ... sure
  837. # [01:55] <timeless> ... is that different from starting from scratch?
  838. # [01:55] <timeless> ... i dunno
  839. # [01:55] <timeless> paulc: you guys are making it hard for me to recess by 5pm
  840. # [01:55] <timeless> chaals: if you want to make a smaller change to the scope
  841. # [01:55] <timeless> ... then the difference becomes more interesting
  842. # [01:55] <timeless> paulc: no one has tried to ask about an extension spec to an extension spec
  843. # [01:55] <timeless> [ laughter ]
  844. # [01:56] <timeless> adrianba: mjs_ made the point that there's still a bug about part of this
  845. # [01:56] <timeless> ... many of the bugs essentially raised the same point
  846. # [01:56] <timeless> ... about interop
  847. # [01:56] <timeless> ... between UAs
  848. # [01:56] <timeless> ... and it's a valid issue
  849. # [01:56] <wseltzer> q?
  850. # [01:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  851. # [01:56] <timeless> ... the bugs wseltzer mentioned where CDMs were indicated as out of scope
  852. # [01:56] <timeless> ... asked for essential design changes
  853. # [01:56] <timeless> ... my position is
  854. # [01:56] <timeless> ... if i were to solve for those bugs
  855. # [01:56] <timeless> ... i probably wouldn't start w/ this spec
  856. # [01:57] * wseltzer some of those were design-related bugs, others were W3C-process related
  857. # [01:57] <timeless> paulc: thank you Josh_Soref for scribing
  858. # [01:57] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  859. # [01:57] <timeless> paulc: do we need to retrace our steps with you?
  860. # [01:57] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  861. # [01:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  862. # [01:58] * Quits: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  863. # [01:58] * Quits: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  864. # [01:58] * Quits: Bin_Hu (~Bin_Hu@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  865. # [01:58] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: everything is locked at 5pm
  866. # [01:58] <timeless> paulc: and we're in a different room?
  867. # [01:58] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  868. # [01:58] * Quits: abraud (~abraud@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  869. # [01:58] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  870. # [01:58] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  871. # [01:58] <timeless> Daniel_Austin: yes, you'll be escorted to the new room like today
  872. # [01:58] <timeless> ... please keep your badges
  873. # [01:58] <timeless> ... there's a reception tomorrow
  874. # [01:58] <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
  875. # [01:58] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  876. # [01:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  877. # [01:58] * Quits: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  878. # [01:59] <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs public
  879. # [01:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, timeless
  880. # [01:59] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  881. # [01:59] * Quits: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  882. # [01:59] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  883. # [01:59] * Quits: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  884. # [01:59] * Quits: johnsim (~johnsim@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  885. # [02:00] <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
  886. # [02:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  887. # [02:00] * Quits: MarkS (msadecki@public.cloak)
  888. # [02:00] * Quits: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  889. # [02:00] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  890. # [02:00] * Quits: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  891. # [02:01] * Quits: JF_ (~JF@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  892. # [02:01] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  893. # [02:01] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  894. # [02:01] * Quits: markw (~markw@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  895. # [02:01] * Quits: mjs_ (~mjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  896. # [02:01] <Zakim> -CyrilRa
  897. # [02:01] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  898. # [02:02] * Quits: arun (~arun@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  899. # [02:02] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  900. # [02:03] * Quits: yosuke (~yosuke@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  901. # [02:03] * Quits: glenn (~glenn@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  902. # [02:03] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  903. # [02:03] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  904. # [02:04] * Quits: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  905. # [02:05] * Quits: eliot (~eliot@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  906. # [02:05] * Quits: ddorwin (~ddorwin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  907. # [02:07] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  908. # [02:07] * Quits: chaals (~chaals@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  909. # [02:13] * Parts: CyrilRa (~anonymous@public.cloak) (CyrilRa)
  910. # [02:14] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  911. # [02:48] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  912. # [02:49] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  913. # [03:06] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Paypal, in HTML_CG(F2F)12:00PM
  914. # [03:06] <Zakim> HTML_CG(F2F)12:00PM has ended
  915. # [03:06] <Zakim> Attendees were CyrilRa, Paypal, Art_Barstow, +1.617.966.aaaa
  916. # [03:12] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
  917. # [03:14] * Parts: virginie_ (~virginie@public.cloak)
  918. # [03:17] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  919. # [03:38] * Joins: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
  920. # [03:43] * Quits: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  921. # [03:51] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  922. # [04:03] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  923. # [04:04] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
  924. # [04:22] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  925. # [04:32] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  926. # [04:32] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/6e3d038632054634da4b9a127a91a68ab306ce8d
  927. # [04:32] <gitbot> html/master 6e3d038 steve faulkner: CSS style switcher script
  928. # [04:32] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  929. # [04:37] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  930. # [04:37] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/ec9ab241c985dfc10aa23a3ca709cf9f0930c62b
  931. # [04:37] <gitbot> html/master ec9ab24 stevefaulkner: Update header-w3c-html-core...
  932. # [04:37] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  933. # [04:40] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  934. # [04:40] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/e9d4d4e54c6a323c69ea512ca1ea6e70156e7d41
  935. # [04:40] <gitbot> html/master e9d4d4e steve faulkner: moved CSS swap script
  936. # [04:40] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  937. # [04:49] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  938. # [04:49] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/3c90ab886fe9c61f71b2966fbe451196d727abd0
  939. # [04:49] <gitbot> html/master 3c90ab8 steve faulkner: W3C-ED dev view CSS
  940. # [04:49] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  941. # [04:52] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  942. # [04:52] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/a4a72db3cc7676f20e9aee2d4a4d3c2ac7508f4b
  943. # [04:52] <gitbot> html/master a4a72db steve faulkner: removed css switcher files...
  944. # [04:52] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  945. # [04:54] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  946. # [04:54] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/d4307f7aafaef10ff7233e621e17d2f3056d91d3
  947. # [04:54] <gitbot> html/master d4307f7 stevefaulkner: Update header-w3c-html-core...
  948. # [04:54] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  949. # [05:02] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  950. # [05:02] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  951. # [05:37] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  952. # [05:38] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@public.cloak)
  953. # [05:39] * Joins: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
  954. # [05:40] * Joins: danielfi_ (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
  955. # [05:40] * Quits: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  956. # [05:43] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
  957. # [05:44] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@public.cloak) (jarek)
  958. # [05:56] * Quits: danielfi_ (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  959. # [06:05] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  960. # [06:10] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
  961. # [06:14] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
  962. # [06:18] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  963. # [06:28] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  964. # [06:29] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
  965. # [07:52] * Joins: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
  966. # [07:56] * Quits: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  967. # [08:08] * Joins: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
  968. # [08:09] * Quits: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  969. # [08:15] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
  970. # [08:16] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  971. # [08:19] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  972. # [08:21] * Joins: stommepoes (~stommepoes@public.cloak)
  973. # [08:41] * Joins: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak)
  974. # [08:53] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  975. # [09:13] <stommepoes> zomg discovered "dirty flag values" in HTML... boy do I know little.
  976. # [09:19] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  977. # [09:31] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  978. # [09:42] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  979. # [09:52] * Joins: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
  980. # [09:55] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
  981. # [09:56] * Quits: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  982. # [10:04] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  983. # [10:12] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  984. # [10:12] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
  985. # [10:16] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
  986. # [10:21] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  987. # [10:23] * Joins: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak)
  988. # [11:00] * Joins: nonge_ (~nonge@public.cloak)
  989. # [11:04] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  990. # [11:09] * Quits: logbot (~logbot@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  991. # [11:15] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  992. # [11:30] * Joins: johnlshe_ (~johnlsheridan@public.cloak)
  993. # [11:31] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  994. # [11:31] * Joins: logbot (~logbot@public.cloak)
  995. # [11:42] * Quits: johnlshe_ (~johnlsheridan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  996. # [11:45] * Joins: danielfilho|w (~danielfilho@public.cloak)
  997. # [11:45] * Joins: Joshue (~Joshue@public.cloak)
  998. # [12:10] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  999. # [12:12] * Quits: stommepoes (~stommepoes@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1000. # [12:14] * Joins: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak)
  1001. # [12:14] * Quits: Jedi (~Jedi@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1002. # [12:17] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
  1003. # [12:22] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  1004. # [12:24] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1005. # [12:27] * Joins: Jedi (~Jedi@public.cloak)
  1006. # [12:31] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1007. # [12:48] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1008. # [12:59] * Joins: cfit (~Joshue@public.cloak)
  1009. # [13:01] * cfit is now known as Cathead
  1010. # [13:02] * Cathead is now known as JoshueCFIT
  1011. # [13:15] * Quits: yoav (~yoav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1012. # [13:25] * Joins: yoav (~yoav@public.cloak)
  1013. # [13:28] * Quits: JoshueCFIT (~Joshue@public.cloak) ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
  1014. # [13:49] * Joins: darfia (~darfia@public.cloak)
  1015. # [13:49] * Joins: darfia_ (~darfia@public.cloak)
  1016. # [14:02] * Quits: Joshue (~Joshue@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
  1017. # [14:03] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  1018. # [14:03] * Joins: Joshue108 (~Joshue@public.cloak)
  1019. # [14:04] * Quits: darfia (~darfia@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  1020. # [14:04] * Quits: darfia_ (~darfia@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  1021. # [14:23] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
  1022. # [14:23] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  1023. # [14:23] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1024. # [14:23] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
  1025. # [14:45] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1026. # [14:59] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak)
  1027. # [15:04] * Joins: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak)
  1028. # [15:09] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1029. # [15:19] * Quits: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  1030. # [15:23] * Joins: gbabula (~gbabula@public.cloak)
  1031. # [15:31] * Quits: Joshue108 (~Joshue@public.cloak) ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
  1032. # [15:31] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1033. # [15:38] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
  1034. # [15:45] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1035. # [15:46] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
  1036. # [15:47] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  1037. # [15:50] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak)
  1038. # [16:20] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
  1039. # [16:51] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  1040. # [16:53] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1041. # [16:53] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak)
  1042. # [16:59] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  1043. # [17:02] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1044. # [17:03] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  1045. # [17:14] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1046. # [17:22] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1047. # [17:30] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  1048. # [17:39] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1049. # [17:47] * Joins: Joshue (~Joshue@public.cloak)
  1050. # [17:50] * Joins: abraud (~abraud@public.cloak)
  1051. # [17:58] * Joins: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak)
  1052. # [17:58] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  1053. # [18:00] * Joins: LeifHalvardSilli (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1054. # [18:01] * Joins: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
  1055. # [18:02] * Joins: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.cloak)
  1056. # [18:03] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
  1057. # [18:04] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  1058. # [18:06] <Jungkee> Present+ Jungkee_Song
  1059. # [18:07] * Joins: MarkS (msadecki@public.cloak)
  1060. # [18:07] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1061. # [18:07] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  1062. # [18:07] * Joins: darobin_ (rberjon@public.cloak)
  1063. # [18:07] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1064. # [18:08] * Joins: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak)
  1065. # [18:08] * Joins: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak)
  1066. # [18:08] * Joins: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak)
  1067. # [18:09] * Joins: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak)
  1068. # [18:09] <timeless> RRSAgent, pointer
  1069. # [18:09] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-irc#T16-07-19
  1070. # [18:09] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda#Agenda_April_24
  1071. # [18:09] <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
  1072. # [18:09] * @trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
  1073. # [18:09] * Joins: yosuke (~yosuke@public.cloak)
  1074. # [18:09] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  1075. # [18:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  1076. # [18:09] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  1077. # [18:09] <@trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
  1078. # [18:09] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
  1079. # [18:09] <@trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  1080. # [18:09] <@trackbot> Date: 24 April 2013
  1081. # [18:09] * timeless changes topic to 'http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda#Agenda_April_24'
  1082. # [18:10] <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
  1083. # [18:10] <timeless> scribe: Josh_Soref
  1084. # [18:10] * Joins: ddorwin (~ddorwin@public.cloak)
  1085. # [18:10] <abraud> present+ Arnaud_Braud
  1086. # [18:10] <timeless> scribenick: timeless
  1087. # [18:10] * Joins: JF (~JF@public.cloak)
  1088. # [18:10] <paulc> present+ paulc
  1089. # [18:10] <darobin_> Present+ Robin
  1090. # [18:10] <JonathanJ> Present+ Jonghong_Jeon
  1091. # [18:10] <acolwell> present+ acolwell
  1092. # [18:10] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  1093. # [18:10] <ddorwin> present+ ddorwin
  1094. # [18:10] <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
  1095. # [18:10] <JF> present+ John Foliot
  1096. # [18:10] * Joins: eliot (~eliot@public.cloak)
  1097. # [18:10] * Joins: SteveF (~SteveF@public.cloak)
  1098. # [18:10] <timeless> s/John Foliot/John_Foliot/
  1099. # [18:11] * Joins: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak)
  1100. # [18:11] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  1101. # [18:11] <SteveF> zakim, present+
  1102. # [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand 'present+', SteveF
  1103. # [18:11] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  1104. # [18:11] <eliot> present+
  1105. # [18:11] <plh> present+ plh
  1106. # [18:11] <timeless> s/zakim, present+//
  1107. # [18:11] <yosuke> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
  1108. # [18:11] <timeless> present+ SteveF
  1109. # [18:11] <SteveF> present+
  1110. # [18:11] * Joins: chaals (~chaals@public.cloak)
  1111. # [18:11] * Joins: Bin_Hu (~Bin_Hu@public.cloak)
  1112. # [18:11] <edoyle> present+
  1113. # [18:11] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1114. # [18:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1115. # [18:11] <Bin_Hu> present+ Bin_Hu
  1116. # [18:11] <eliot> present+ eliot
  1117. # [18:11] <MarkVickers> present+ MarkVickers
  1118. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
  1119. # [18:11] <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs public
  1120. # [18:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, timeless
  1121. # [18:12] <MarkS> present+ Mark_Sadecki
  1122. # [18:12] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1123. # [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1124. # [18:12] <edoyle> present+ edoyle
  1125. # [18:12] * Joins: glenn (~glenn@public.cloak)
  1126. # [18:12] <timeless> chair: paulc, rubys, mjs
  1127. # [18:12] * Joins: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak)
  1128. # [18:12] <BobLund> present+
  1129. # [18:12] * Joins: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak)
  1130. # [18:13] <glenn> present+
  1131. # [18:13] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1132. # [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1133. # [18:13] <timeless> present+ edoyle
  1134. # [18:13] <timeless> s/edoyle/glenn/
  1135. # [18:13] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1136. # [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1137. # [18:14] <timeless> present+ BobLund
  1138. # [18:14] <aizu> present+ aizu
  1139. # [18:14] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
  1140. # [18:14] <chaals> Present+ chaals
  1141. # [18:14] <jeff> Present+ jeff
  1142. # [18:15] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1143. # [18:17] * Quits: yoav_ (~yoav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1144. # [18:18] <timeless> s/Weekly Teleconference/Interim Face to Face/
  1145. # [18:19] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
  1146. # [18:19] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  1147. # [18:19] <MarkVickers> present+ MarkVickers
  1148. # [18:19] <timeless> topic: Miscellaneous topics (including polyglot)
  1149. # [18:20] <timeless> eliot: i want to thank the chairs for adding Leif as an editor
  1150. # [18:20] <timeless> ... that's been a huge help
  1151. # [18:20] <timeless> ... we're down to three open bugs on polyglot
  1152. # [18:20] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  1153. # [18:20] <timeless> ... we expect to hit 0 bugs in the next week or two
  1154. # [18:20] <timeless> ... given the history of discussion around polyglot
  1155. # [18:20] <timeless> ... especially around normative spec and around UCs
  1156. # [18:20] <timeless> ... i thought it'd be opportune to throw out
  1157. # [18:21] <timeless> ... the idea that we're getting close to a CfC about Status of Polyglot
  1158. # [18:21] <adrianba> Present+ adrianba
  1159. # [18:21] <timeless> ... to ask the people assembled if there are areas of discussion
  1160. # [18:21] <timeless> ... and recommendations for the spec before we get to that point
  1161. # [18:21] <timeless> ... the three open bugs
  1162. # [18:21] <timeless> ... one is to drop XHTML from the title of the document
  1163. # [18:21] <timeless> ... leif has made a first edit on that
  1164. # [18:21] <timeless> ... we're waiting for a response if any before resolving that as fixed
  1165. # [18:22] <paulc> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19925
  1166. # [18:22] <timeless> ... my understanding is he was waiting to see if there was any response to his subtle change
  1167. # [18:22] * plh [we're still waiting on more power in the room and getting the polycom fixed]
  1168. # [18:22] <paulc> Leif's direction: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19925
  1169. # [18:22] <timeless> paulc: the comment 16 has what he intends to do
  1170. # [18:22] <timeless> eliot: and later he talks about
  1171. # [18:22] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19925#c16
  1172. # [18:22] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
  1173. # [18:22] * Zakim sorry, plh, I don't know what conference this is
  1174. # [18:23] * Zakim sees on irc: adrianba, MarkVickers, MichaelC, jeff, BobLund, glenn, Bin_Hu, chaals, plh, edoyle, SteveF, eliot, JF, ddorwin, Zakim, yosuke, acolwell, aizu, paulc, a1zu, darobin,
  1175. # [18:23] * Zakim ... MarkS, tobie, JonathanJ, Jungkee, wonsuk, LeifHalvardSilli, bryan
  1176. # [18:23] <plh> zakim, this will be html
  1177. # [18:23] <Zakim> ok, plh; I see HTML_CG(F2F)12:00PM scheduled to start 21 minutes ago
  1178. # [18:23] <timeless> paulc: larry was giving arguments for keeping it
  1179. # [18:23] <timeless> eliot: two paragraphs earlier "i'll try to incorporate more comments"
  1180. # [18:23] <paulc> Title: «Polyglot Markup: A robust profile of the HTML5 vocabulary»
  1181. # [18:23] <timeless> ... the other assigned to leif is 21174
  1182. # [18:23] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21174
  1183. # [18:24] <timeless> ... he opened the bug
  1184. # [18:24] <timeless> ... and said what he's planning on doing
  1185. # [18:24] <timeless> ... and he said he'll work on this in the near future
  1186. # [18:25] * Joins: sruby (~sruby@public.cloak)
  1187. # [18:25] * sruby is now known as rubys
  1188. # [18:26] * Joins: jdsmith (~jdsmith@public.cloak)
  1189. # [18:26] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21174
  1190. # [18:26] <timeless> paulc: item 6 here says something about the HTML5 spec
  1191. # [18:27] * chaals notes that Maciej arrives earlier than expected
  1192. # [18:27] * timeless it says vioLOATion not violation :)
  1193. # [18:27] * timeless LeifHalvardSilli:
  1194. # [18:27] <paulc> Leif: When will bugs 21174 and 19925 be processed?
  1195. # [18:28] <eliot> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20197
  1196. # [18:28] <timeless> eliot: on this one, i need to speak w/ rubys
  1197. # [18:28] <adrianba> s/Leif:/Leif,/
  1198. # [18:28] <timeless> ... he said rubys described Polyglot as an applicable spec according to HTML5's terminology
  1199. # [18:29] <timeless> ... you had a should/could/had-to be an applicable spec
  1200. # [18:29] <timeless> rubys: i believe i made that remark
  1201. # [18:29] <timeless> ... i didn't necessarily intend for a change to the spec
  1202. # [18:29] <timeless> eliot: in my understanding
  1203. # [18:29] <timeless> ... there's no required definition of Polyglot as an applicable spec
  1204. # [18:29] <timeless> ... so we'll be down to two bugs
  1205. # [18:30] <timeless> paulc: can we find the results of the first CfC?
  1206. # [18:30] <timeless> ... was it in December?
  1207. # [18:30] <timeless> ... - trying to take HTML, canvas, microdata to CR?
  1208. # [18:31] <timeless> eliot: it was right after TPAC
  1209. # [18:31] <timeless> paulc: we decided we'd do a Preference Poll after we got Objections
  1210. # [18:31] <timeless> ... we wanted to get down to 0 bugs
  1211. # [18:31] <timeless> rubys: we assigned a new editor, that helped
  1212. # [18:32] <timeless> paulc: you, rubys, built the survey
  1213. # [18:33] <timeless> rubys: if it's Editor's intent to persue REC, then yes
  1214. # [18:33] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  1215. # [18:33] <timeless> ... you need the Poll
  1216. # [18:33] <paulc> Rationale for keeping on Recommendation Track: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/PolyglotRecommendationRationale
  1217. # [18:33] * Joins: rubys2 (~rubys2@public.cloak)
  1218. # [18:34] <rubys2> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/polyglot-status-preference-poll/
  1219. # [18:34] <timeless> paulc: it's possible the rationales need to be updated
  1220. # [18:34] <timeless> rubys2: the preference poll is not yet opened
  1221. # [18:35] <timeless> ... it references two rationales
  1222. # [18:35] <paulc> Statement why Polyglot should be informative: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Nov/0006.html
  1223. # [18:35] <timeless> paulc: before we run this poll
  1224. # [18:35] <timeless> ... i think we should make sure both rationales still stand
  1225. # [18:36] <timeless> ... chairs should ask the rationale authors to see if they should be updated
  1226. # [18:36] <timeless> rubys2: one of the rationale statement editors is here
  1227. # [18:36] <timeless> paulc: could you and he, eliot, check to see if it needs to be updated?
  1228. # [18:36] <timeless> paulc: this is a case where we will ACTUALLY COUNT HEADS
  1229. # [18:36] <timeless> ... every for and against actually counts
  1230. # [18:36] <timeless> rubys2: BY PERSON
  1231. # [18:37] <timeless> paulc: i'm not sure what the preference poll actually says
  1232. # [18:37] <timeless> ... "Survey is by individual, not organization, simple majority wins"
  1233. # [18:37] <timeless> ... since this is a process, not technical
  1234. # [18:37] <timeless> paulc: we don't need to ask for additional statements
  1235. # [18:37] <timeless> ... we're assuming this is the definitive list
  1236. # [18:38] <timeless> rubys2: once we get LeifHalvardSilli and eliot updating their statement
  1237. # [18:38] <timeless> ... and spec
  1238. # [18:38] <timeless> ... we will ask to see if anyone else wants to expand on hsivonen's comment
  1239. # [18:39] <timeless> paulc: does the survey point at the Polyglot document?
  1240. # [18:39] <timeless> ... it doesn't appear to
  1241. # [18:39] <timeless> rubys2: that (first paragraph/sentence of survey question) would be the place to do it
  1242. # [18:39] <timeless> paulc: when we go to 0 bugs
  1243. # [18:39] <timeless> ... and do a survey
  1244. # [18:40] <timeless> ... if the doc isn't stable
  1245. # [18:40] <timeless> ... people bitch
  1246. # [18:40] <timeless> eliot: ok, no changes during the survey
  1247. # [18:40] * Joins: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak)
  1248. # [18:40] <timeless> paulc: people say the document keeps changing underneath me
  1249. # [18:40] <timeless> rubys2: Am updating it now
  1250. # [18:40] <timeless> s/Miscellaneous topics (including polyglot)/Polyglot document/
  1251. # [18:40] <timeless> paulc: assuming Poll result is "Normative"
  1252. # [18:40] <timeless> ... then that would mean we'd publish as CR
  1253. # [18:41] <timeless> ... the reason some people think it shouldn't be normative because it's a subset
  1254. # [18:41] <timeless> ... we'd need exit-criteria for/from CR
  1255. # [18:41] <timeless> ... editors need to think about those
  1256. # [18:41] <timeless> ... but we won't process it until after the Poll
  1257. # [18:41] <timeless> ... just as a forewarning of how to get out of CR
  1258. # [18:41] <timeless> ... and the period of review
  1259. # [18:41] <rubys2> poll has been updated
  1260. # [18:42] <timeless> topic: Plans for Heartbeat publications
  1261. # [18:43] <timeless> darobin: in terms of heartbeats, we haven't published in a little while
  1262. # [18:43] <timeless> ... we need to issue a bunch of new documents
  1263. # [18:43] <timeless> ... those we plan to publish as simple heartbeats
  1264. # [18:43] <timeless> ... are HTML5.1 with simple changes
  1265. # [18:43] <timeless> ... Canvas 2D level 2 with simple changes
  1266. # [18:43] <timeless> ... and Differences between HTML4.01 and HTML5
  1267. # [18:44] <timeless> ... that part isn't really contentious
  1268. # [18:44] <timeless> ... after that, we have documents we plan to discontinue
  1269. # [18:44] <timeless> ... documents which we'll publish as NOTE
  1270. # [18:44] <timeless> ... one is <main> which we're folding into HTML5
  1271. # [18:44] <timeless> ... - indicate that
  1272. # [18:44] <timeless> ... one is HTML5 for web authors
  1273. # [18:44] <timeless> ... - few authors actually use them
  1274. # [18:44] <timeless> ... we've been in touch with the webplatform.org people
  1275. # [18:45] <timeless> ... who might have a use for pieces
  1276. # [18:45] <timeless> ... other parts may be folded into HTML5
  1277. # [18:45] <timeless> s/we're folding into HTML5/we've folded into HTML5.1 and are folding into HTML5.0/
  1278. # [18:45] <timeless> paulc: this sets precedent that an extension spec
  1279. # [18:45] <timeless> ... if it gets folded into some HTML version
  1280. # [18:46] <timeless> ... then we'd publish the extension spec as a WG NOTE with a SOTD indicating that we folded it into the HTML spec
  1281. # [18:46] <timeless> darobin: to make it clear what happened
  1282. # [18:46] <timeless> paulc: plh, do WG NOTEs show up directly on TR page?
  1283. # [18:46] <timeless> plh: they do
  1284. # [18:46] <timeless> paulc: template is different?
  1285. # [18:46] <timeless> darobin: it says "NOTE" in the corner
  1286. # [18:47] <plh> example of discontinued item: http://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/
  1287. # [18:47] <timeless> darobin: we're also discontinuing "HTML The Markup Language"
  1288. # [18:47] <timeless> paulc: we can tell the room that's what we want to do
  1289. # [18:47] <timeless> ... we're resource constrained
  1290. # [18:47] <timeless> ... do we do a call for volunteers
  1291. # [18:48] <timeless> ... if we could have people edit them
  1292. # [18:48] <timeless> ... do we want them to continue
  1293. # [18:48] <timeless> ... or do we not think they should survive?
  1294. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> q+ to saay
  1295. # [18:48] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1296. # [18:48] <timeless> ... or do we want a CfC w/ an anchor to the document of that time
  1297. # [18:48] <timeless> darobin: if we had volunteers, we could talk about it
  1298. # [18:48] <timeless> ... but only one, and not both
  1299. # [18:48] <timeless> ... HTML for web authors is generated from the HTML spec
  1300. # [18:48] <timeless> ... it's complicated and tends to break
  1301. # [18:49] <timeless> ... if we were to keep one of them alive, i'd say it would be "HTML The Markup Language"
  1302. # [18:49] <timeless> ... but it would be a better fit for webplatform.org
  1303. # [18:49] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
  1304. # [18:49] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to saay
  1305. # [18:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1306. # [18:49] <timeless> MikeSmith: both of those documents are generated
  1307. # [18:49] <timeless> ... HTML The Markup Language is generated from the Schema of the validator
  1308. # [18:49] * Quits: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  1309. # [18:49] <timeless> ... both of them have XSL Style Sheets
  1310. # [18:49] <timeless> ... anyone volunteering should be able to prove they can handle the pain
  1311. # [18:49] <timeless> ... or they could redo them
  1312. # [18:49] <eliot> q+
  1313. # [18:49] * Zakim sees eliot on the speaker queue
  1314. # [18:50] <timeless> ... the issue is there's not much demand
  1315. # [18:50] * Joins: wonsuk (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
  1316. # [18:50] <timeless> ... not many who would miss them
  1317. # [18:50] <adrianba> q+
  1318. # [18:50] * Zakim sees eliot, adrianba on the speaker queue
  1319. # [18:50] <timeless> paulc: are there bugs?
  1320. # [18:50] <timeless> MikeSmith: they're mostly non-normative bugs
  1321. # [18:50] <timeless> SteveF: what's the difference?
  1322. # [18:50] <timeless> MikeSmith: source for HTML spec is marked up w/ class values w/ every paired ref and in some cases even spans of text
  1323. # [18:51] <timeless> ... e.g. that only apply to HTML UA implementers
  1324. # [18:51] <timeless> ... the build script drops the HTML UA sections
  1325. # [18:51] <timeless> ... the idea was so that you didn't have to do the style switching
  1326. # [18:51] <timeless> ... the spec has dfn's marked up w/ generated cross references
  1327. # [18:51] <timeless> ... in the source for the html spec .. in Hixie 's upstream version
  1328. # [18:52] <timeless> ... but the refs don't work across the multipage document
  1329. # [18:52] <timeless> ... if you click up a dfn term
  1330. # [18:52] <timeless> ... it shows a popup with everywhere it's used in the doc
  1331. # [18:52] <timeless> ... but you have to use the 6mb spec document
  1332. # [18:52] <timeless> ... when i wrote the build, i made it work across multipage for the author's version
  1333. # [18:52] <timeless> ... the other problem is that sometimes it references stuff
  1334. # [18:52] <timeless> ... even when you get a popup
  1335. # [18:52] <timeless> ... sometimes it references something only in the full spec version
  1336. # [18:53] <timeless> ... so i made the script distinguish between "in author edition"
  1337. # [18:53] <timeless> ... and "need to link to full version of spec"
  1338. # [18:53] <timeless> ... i don't care, and no one has filed bugs
  1339. # [18:53] <timeless> ... indicates no one is using it
  1340. # [18:53] <timeless> ... if someone was able to show they're serious about maintaining
  1341. # [18:53] <timeless> ... i'd say ok, let them do it
  1342. # [18:53] <chaals> q+
  1343. # [18:53] * Zakim sees eliot, adrianba, chaals on the speaker queue
  1344. # [18:53] <timeless> darobin: if we have someone we don't like
  1345. # [18:53] <timeless> ... and want them to spend time on it
  1346. # [18:53] <timeless> MikeSmith: a honey pot
  1347. # [18:53] <timeless> paulc: plh could handle it?
  1348. # [18:54] <timeless> [ records stop ]
  1349. # [18:54] <timeless> SteveF: with the style switcher, we get the author view w/o the pain
  1350. # [18:54] <timeless> MikeSmith: yes
  1351. # [18:54] <timeless> ... also with HTML The Markup Language
  1352. # [18:54] <timeless> ... the spec has attributes w/ short descriptions
  1353. # [18:54] <timeless> ... so you don't have to go down to the core
  1354. # [18:54] <darobin> q?
  1355. # [18:54] * Zakim sees eliot, adrianba, chaals on the speaker queue
  1356. # [18:54] <timeless> ... but Hixie did that to the upstream spec
  1357. # [18:55] <timeless> ... also, there are rules in HTML that people still are confused by
  1358. # [18:55] <timeless> ... and XML and HTML helped confuse people
  1359. # [18:55] <timeless> ... you can omit <body>, you can omit <html>
  1360. # [18:55] <adrianba> q-
  1361. # [18:55] * Zakim sees eliot, chaals on the speaker queue
  1362. # [18:55] <timeless> ... there's a section in the spec (syntax) where the rules for omission are listed
  1363. # [18:55] <timeless> ... Hixie recently put the tag omission rules into the individual tag sections
  1364. # [18:56] <timeless> ... so now this added value is obsolete
  1365. # [18:56] <timeless> ... there are a couple of other style things we could migrate
  1366. # [18:56] <timeless> ... we don't need to worry about losing
  1367. # [18:56] <timeless> paulc: sounds like we need emails to html-admin@
  1368. # [18:56] <timeless> ... "discontinued document X"
  1369. # [18:56] <timeless> ... with rationale heard here today
  1370. # [18:56] <timeless> ... with an explicit request that people who disagree please respond to the thread
  1371. # [18:56] <timeless> ... the emails should provide the positive reasons
  1372. # [18:57] <timeless> ... - that the base doc now satisfies these needs
  1373. # [18:57] <timeless> ... one of the editors should sign up to send these messages
  1374. # [18:57] <timeless> ... both you, MikeSmith ?
  1375. # [18:57] <timeless> MikeSmith: yes, both me
  1376. # [18:57] <timeless> paulc: do two separate messages w/ clear subject field
  1377. # [18:57] <timeless> ... first paragraph w/ executive summary
  1378. # [18:57] <timeless> ... why document will be discontinued
  1379. # [18:57] <timeless> ... publish as WG NOTE
  1380. # [18:57] <timeless> ... give story as you gave now
  1381. # [18:57] <timeless> rubys2: make the default what you want
  1382. # [18:58] <timeless> ... that they go away
  1383. # [18:58] <timeless> q?
  1384. # [18:58] * Zakim sees eliot, chaals on the speaker queue
  1385. # [18:58] <timeless> ack eliot
  1386. # [18:58] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  1387. # [18:58] <timeless> eliot: rubys2 you lost your projecting
  1388. # [18:58] <timeless> ... that's not why i'm on the queue
  1389. # [18:58] <timeless> eliot: to respond to darobin
  1390. # [18:58] <timeless> ... i reached out to shepazu
  1391. # [18:58] <timeless> ... he and i will look at the content and see where it makes sense to merge it over
  1392. # [18:58] * rubys is now known as rubys0
  1393. # [18:58] <timeless> ... we're happy to take content
  1394. # [18:58] <timeless> ack chaals
  1395. # [18:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1396. # [18:59] * rubys2 is now known as rubys
  1397. # [18:59] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  1398. # [18:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
  1399. # [18:59] <chaals> ack chaals
  1400. # [18:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1401. # [18:59] <timeless> darobin: there are bugs in the publication system
  1402. # [18:59] <timeless> ... we're working on fixing them
  1403. # [18:59] <timeless> ... hopefully by the end of the week
  1404. # [18:59] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  1405. # [18:59] <timeless> paulc: editors need to publish the chairs
  1406. # [18:59] <timeless> ... for the three documents
  1407. # [18:59] <timeless> ... HTML5.1 heartbeat
  1408. # [18:59] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1409. # [18:59] <timeless> ... Canvas2D level 2 heartbeat
  1410. # [19:00] <timeless> ... HTML4.01 to HTML5 heartbeat
  1411. # [19:00] <timeless> ... you need to give stable versions of those documents
  1412. # [19:00] <timeless> ... we'll run a CfC together to get them published
  1413. # [19:00] <timeless> ... sound like a plan?
  1414. # [19:00] <timeless> ... we should try to publish those every 3 months
  1415. # [19:00] <timeless> darobin: 3 months
  1416. # [19:00] <timeless> paulc: <main> is in HTML5.1
  1417. # [19:00] <timeless> ... current activity is getting <main> in HTML5.0
  1418. # [19:00] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak)
  1419. # [19:00] <timeless> ... that doesn't hold up this heartbeat?
  1420. # [19:01] <timeless> darobin: right, it's been in HTML5.1 for 2 months
  1421. # [19:01] <timeless> ... at some point i'd like to publish a FPWD of the Ruby Extension spec
  1422. # [19:01] <timeless> ... i'll talk to you about issuing a CfC on that
  1423. # [19:01] <timeless> paulc: i think you sent a note to public-html@ about that spec
  1424. # [19:01] <timeless> ... did yoy get a response?
  1425. # [19:01] <timeless> s/yoy/you/
  1426. # [19:01] <timeless> darobin: not on the list
  1427. # [19:01] <timeless> ... but i did get direct
  1428. # [19:02] <timeless> ... partly from implementers, "yeah, that looks good"
  1429. # [19:02] <timeless> ... and one from i18n people, they found a bug
  1430. # [19:02] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  1431. # [19:02] <timeless> paulc: you're putting something into HTML5.0
  1432. # [19:02] <timeless> ... stuff that overrides what's in HTML5.0?
  1433. # [19:02] <timeless> ... was that in the AT RISK list?
  1434. # [19:02] <timeless> darobin: i don't think so
  1435. # [19:02] <timeless> paulc: is it your intention
  1436. # [19:02] <timeless> ... you've spent a lot of time on this
  1437. # [19:02] <timeless> ... was your intention to get this spec caught up so it could fold into HTML5.0?
  1438. # [19:02] <timeless> darobin: it would be nice
  1439. # [19:02] <timeless> ... but i don't think the implementation schedule lines up
  1440. # [19:02] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1441. # [19:03] <timeless> paulc: the problem isn't tests
  1442. # [19:03] <timeless> ... it's implementations
  1443. # [19:03] <timeless> darobin: hard to fold into spec without implementations
  1444. # [19:03] <timeless> paulc: chaals and A11Y TF learned
  1445. # [19:03] <timeless> ... there are granular blocks of time between FPWD and LC
  1446. # [19:03] <rubys> q+
  1447. # [19:03] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
  1448. # [19:03] <timeless> ... no reason to wait to 0 bugs before LC
  1449. # [19:03] <timeless> darobin: i just think it should be fixed first
  1450. # [19:04] <timeless> paulc: darobin is on hook to tell chairs when he is ready w/ Ruby spec
  1451. # [19:04] <timeless> ... and we'd do a CfC on Ruby
  1452. # [19:04] <timeless> s/LC/FPWD/
  1453. # [19:04] <timeless> paulc: question to Process experts
  1454. # [19:04] <timeless> ... can you do FPWD and LC at the same time?
  1455. # [19:04] <timeless> plh: yes
  1456. # [19:04] <timeless> chaals: yes
  1457. # [19:04] <timeless> paulc: do you have to wait for LC?
  1458. # [19:05] <timeless> chaals: it's common to wait
  1459. # [19:05] <timeless> ... there's the 60 day timeout
  1460. # [19:05] <timeless> paulc: is there any reason not to do FPWD and LC at the same time?
  1461. # [19:05] <timeless> darobin: i'm happy to do them at the same time
  1462. # [19:05] <timeless> paulc: seeing some people shake their heads
  1463. # [19:05] <timeless> ... i thought process and Patent Policy were written to encourage people to bring well formed work to Consortia
  1464. # [19:06] <timeless> ... so if it was a NOTE it didn't have to do multiple WDs before LC
  1465. # [19:06] <timeless> chaals: in principle, yeah
  1466. # [19:06] <timeless> ... in practice
  1467. # [19:06] <timeless> ... FPWD and look for comments before LC
  1468. # [19:06] <timeless> ... isn't a bad idea
  1469. # [19:06] <timeless> ... if you do FPWD and LC at once
  1470. # [19:06] <timeless> ... you're more likely to get a second LC
  1471. # [19:06] <timeless> ... it's a social thing
  1472. # [19:06] <timeless> ... best not to have "LC" isn't "first in a series"
  1473. # [19:06] <timeless> paulc: right
  1474. # [19:06] <timeless> ... you're saying if you do LC, it should really be _the_ LC
  1475. # [19:07] <timeless> darobin: either way is fine
  1476. # [19:07] <timeless> ... if we do them together, we need a long LC period anyway
  1477. # [19:07] <timeless> paulc: just wanted to consider possibility
  1478. # [19:07] <timeless> q?
  1479. # [19:07] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
  1480. # [19:07] <timeless> ack rubys
  1481. # [19:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1482. # [19:07] <timeless> rubys: what do you recommend we do in HTML5.0?
  1483. # [19:07] <timeless> ... i understand current target is 5.1
  1484. # [19:07] <timeless> ... ruby isn't marked as AT RISK
  1485. # [19:07] <timeless> ... what should happen to it?
  1486. # [19:07] <timeless> darobin: it's a problem
  1487. # [19:07] <timeless> ... i didn't think about marking as AT RISK
  1488. # [19:08] <timeless> ... what's there is really buggy
  1489. # [19:08] <timeless> ... it doesn't make i18n people happy at all
  1490. # [19:08] <timeless> ... if this doesn't make it
  1491. # [19:08] <timeless> ... we should look into dropping what's there
  1492. # [19:08] <timeless> ... ideally we could get this in 5.0
  1493. # [19:08] <timeless> rubys: if it doesn't make CR exit criteria
  1494. # [19:08] <timeless> ... it doesn't make sense to put in
  1495. # [19:08] <timeless> ... but it might make sense to drop the current ruby
  1496. # [19:08] <timeless> darobin: the way the spec is written is very buggy
  1497. # [19:08] <timeless> rubys: it's got an infinite loop
  1498. # [19:09] <timeless> darobin: it doesn't really work
  1499. # [19:09] <timeless> chaals: are they using what's in the spec
  1500. # [19:09] <timeless> ... or markup like it
  1501. # [19:09] <timeless> MikeSmith: this isn't a candidate that's buggy enough to remove
  1502. # [19:09] <timeless> darobin: the spec is really buggy
  1503. # [19:09] <timeless> paulc: you collected all the bugs on ruby in the document
  1504. # [19:09] <timeless> ... and instead of attempting to fix the 5.0 document
  1505. # [19:09] <timeless> ... you put the suggested change in an extension spec
  1506. # [19:10] <timeless> ... what did you do for the bugs in 5.0?
  1507. # [19:10] <timeless> darobin: we don't have a component, we could make one
  1508. # [19:10] <timeless> ... they're still left open, assigned to me
  1509. # [19:10] <timeless> paulc: some of those bugs might not be sufficient grounds to take them out of
  1510. # [19:10] <timeless> MikeSmith: i'd say they aren't
  1511. # [19:10] <timeless> ... i know the guy who implemented it in Chrome
  1512. # [19:10] <timeless> ... he didn't have a huge amount of trouble implementing it
  1513. # [19:11] <timeless> darobin: he'd have to read between the lines
  1514. # [19:11] <timeless> ... as is, you get lots of infinite loops
  1515. # [19:11] <timeless> hober: that's really where Ruby is, it's between the lines
  1516. # [19:11] <timeless> [ Laughter, Applause ]
  1517. # [19:11] <timeless> MikeSmith: i don't remember there being big problems
  1518. # [19:11] <timeless> ... it's in WebKit, Chrome, Blink, IE
  1519. # [19:11] <timeless> paulc: saying it's being used didn't prevent us from removing
  1520. # [19:12] <timeless> ... <hgroup>
  1521. # [19:12] <timeless> darobin: there's perhaps a way to fix part of it
  1522. # [19:12] <timeless> ... and the rest in extension
  1523. # [19:12] <timeless> MikeSmith: main use is Japan
  1524. # [19:12] <timeless> ... they won't be happy if you remove it from the spec
  1525. # [19:12] <timeless> ... it's a waste of time to talk about removing it
  1526. # [19:12] <timeless> darobin: hybrid approach, take fixes from extension spec
  1527. # [19:12] <timeless> ... migrate to HTML5 spec
  1528. # [19:12] <timeless> ... but w/o introducing new features
  1529. # [19:12] <timeless> MikeSmith: sounds fine
  1530. # [19:12] <hober> q?
  1531. # [19:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1532. # [19:13] <hober> q+
  1533. # [19:13] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
  1534. # [19:13] <timeless> ... but yanking doesn't seem valuable
  1535. # [19:13] <timeless> rubys: value in having in spec
  1536. # [19:13] <timeless> darobin: we can split it
  1537. # [19:13] <timeless> ... extension spec adds features
  1538. # [19:13] <timeless> ... we can leave them out
  1539. # [19:13] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  1540. # [19:13] <timeless> ... existing docs really doesn't work
  1541. # [19:13] <timeless> ... happy to look at webkit
  1542. # [19:13] <timeless> MikeSmith: talk to roland
  1543. # [19:13] * timeless roland ??
  1544. # [19:13] <timeless> paulc: straw man
  1545. # [19:13] <timeless> ... darobin closes final bug on his Ruby spec
  1546. # [19:14] <timeless> ... that we publish FPWD
  1547. # [19:14] <timeless> ... would that by itself cause a storm of response?
  1548. # [19:14] <timeless> MikeSmith: no, they'd be happy w/ that
  1549. # [19:14] <timeless> paulc: darobin, does your draft enumerate the bugs it's trying to solve?
  1550. # [19:14] <timeless> darobin: not as bugs, but it states the UCs
  1551. # [19:14] <timeless> glenn: i'd like to have a FPWD and not do LC simultaneously
  1552. # [19:14] <timeless> paulc: that's fine, i wanted to examine things
  1553. # [19:15] <timeless> ... but we agree that's rushing the horse out of the barn
  1554. # [19:15] <timeless> ... but, darobin, i'd like the status section to indicate the bugs it's addresssing
  1555. # [19:15] <timeless> s/addresssing/addressing/
  1556. # [19:15] <hober> q-
  1557. # [19:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1558. # [19:15] <timeless> ... but agree w/ MikeSmith
  1559. # [19:15] <timeless> ... want to contact implementers
  1560. # [19:15] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  1561. # [19:15] <timeless> darobin: implementers read it and gave feedback
  1562. # [19:15] <timeless> MikeSmith: would be nice to get input from Mozilla
  1563. # [19:15] <timeless> ... instead of not implementing
  1564. # [19:16] <timeless> q?
  1565. # [19:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1566. # [19:16] <timeless> SteveF: sounds like there's some spec that should go back into 5.0
  1567. # [19:16] <timeless> ... and some to sit outside of 5.0
  1568. # [19:16] <timeless> ... why not put it in 5.1 spec for review
  1569. # [19:16] <timeless> ... bits we agree upon that could go back to 5.0?
  1570. # [19:16] <timeless> darobin: i don't want to commit
  1571. # [19:16] <timeless> ... it's one big painful algorithm
  1572. # [19:16] <timeless> ... i'm not sure whether it's splittable or not
  1573. # [19:16] <timeless> ... into sensible pieces
  1574. # [19:17] <timeless> SteveF: will it eventually sit in 5.1?
  1575. # [19:17] <timeless> darobin: at some point
  1576. # [19:17] <timeless> ... but i'd rather not do the work of integrating just yet
  1577. # [19:17] <timeless> ... it's a fairly big delta
  1578. # [19:17] <mjs> q+
  1579. # [19:17] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  1580. # [19:17] <timeless> q+ break to have coffee
  1581. # [19:17] * Zakim sees mjs, break on the speaker queue
  1582. # [19:17] <timeless> ack mjs
  1583. # [19:17] * Zakim sees break on the speaker queue
  1584. # [19:17] <timeless> mjs: first step before backporting
  1585. # [19:17] <timeless> ... is to identify most critical
  1586. # [19:18] <timeless> ... if backporting doesn't work out
  1587. # [19:18] <timeless> ... maybe someone will be motivated to hotfix the most critical issues
  1588. # [19:18] <timeless> darobin: you have to replace the entire algorithm
  1589. # [19:18] <timeless> mjs: have you checked to see if the new algorithm matches the existing implementations
  1590. # [19:18] <timeless> darobin: the new features...
  1591. # [19:18] <timeless> mjs: ignoring those
  1592. # [19:18] <timeless> ... for the feature set people tried to implement
  1593. # [19:19] <timeless> darobin: it partially matches
  1594. # [19:19] <timeless> ... except where i think they're wrong
  1595. # [19:19] <timeless> ... e.g. WebKit loses whitespace
  1596. # [19:19] <timeless> ... where i think it shouldn't
  1597. # [19:19] <timeless> ... it doesn't come up often
  1598. # [19:19] <timeless> ... only matters w/ Ruby on Latin languages
  1599. # [19:19] <timeless> ... but it matches most of the rest
  1600. # [19:19] <timeless> ... afaic=t
  1601. # [19:19] <timeless> s/=//
  1602. # [19:19] <timeless> q?
  1603. # [19:19] * Zakim sees break on the speaker queue
  1604. # [19:19] <timeless> paulc: steps
  1605. # [19:19] <timeless> darobin: 1. file bugs not currently filed
  1606. # [19:20] <timeless> 2. fix bugs in my alg
  1607. # [19:20] <timeless> s/2/... 2/
  1608. # [19:20] <timeless> ... 3. fix bug in extension spec
  1609. # [19:20] <timeless> ... 4. make SOTD point to actual bugs
  1610. # [19:20] <timeless> ... 5. talk to chairs about FPWD
  1611. # [19:20] <timeless> ... 6. see about backporting to 5.0
  1612. # [19:20] <timeless> paulc: i'll assume MikeSmith agrees then
  1613. # [19:20] <timeless> paulc: i heard mjs asked
  1614. # [19:20] <timeless> ... double check to make sure your algorithm
  1615. # [19:21] <timeless> ... see how it matches existing code
  1616. # [19:21] <timeless> darobin: in my view, it's part of backporting to 5.0 (#6)
  1617. # [19:22] <Zakim> HTML_CG(F2F)12:00PM has now started
  1618. # [19:22] <Zakim> +Paypal
  1619. # [19:22] <timeless> [ #2 and #3 are the same, so there are really only 5 points ]
  1620. # [19:22] * plh notes that the html f2f room is now on the bridge
  1621. # [19:22] <timeless> q?
  1622. # [19:22] * Zakim sees break on the speaker queue
  1623. # [19:23] * Joins: DanielAustin (~DanielAustin@public.cloak)
  1624. # [19:23] <timeless> paulc: schedule has us talking about issue-194
  1625. # [19:23] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1626. # [19:23] <timeless> ... reconvene @ 10:35
  1627. # [19:23] <timeless> q- break
  1628. # [19:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1629. # [19:23] <timeless> Topic: Assigning a transcript to audio or video (ISSUE-194)(A11Y TF)
  1630. # [19:27] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1631. # [19:27] * Quits: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1632. # [19:27] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1633. # [19:28] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
  1634. # [19:28] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  1635. # [19:29] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  1636. # [19:30] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  1637. # [19:31] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  1638. # [19:32] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  1639. # [19:33] * Parts: stearns (~anonymous@public.cloak) (stearns)
  1640. # [19:33] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  1641. # [19:33] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/218c893c5bbd4767dd26579010ae1ac955c4cb6f
  1642. # [19:33] <gitbot> html/master 218c893 steve faulkner: added style switcher files
  1643. # [19:33] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  1644. # [19:34] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  1645. # [19:34] * Joins: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak)
  1646. # [19:39] * Joins: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak)
  1647. # [19:39] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1648. # [19:41] * Joins: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak)
  1649. # [19:42] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1650. # [19:44] * Quits: tantek (~tpod@public.cloak) ("Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi")
  1651. # [19:46] <timeless> JF: a recap of the issue formerly known as issue-194
  1652. # [19:46] <timeless> ... we have a longstanding issue
  1653. # [19:46] <timeless> ... to have a programmatically associated transcript to a video
  1654. # [19:47] <timeless> ... a group of us looked at UCs
  1655. # [19:47] <timeless> ... we went through a WBS survey
  1656. # [19:47] <timeless> ... got 4 responses
  1657. # [19:47] <timeless> ... this is sitting in limbo ASAP
  1658. # [19:47] <timeless> ... from an engineering perspective, it may not seem big
  1659. # [19:47] <hober> q+
  1660. # [19:47] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
  1661. # [19:47] <timeless> ... but there's legislative ... that can...
  1662. # [19:48] <timeless> ... there was an idea of introducing transcript= and <transcript>
  1663. # [19:48] <timeless> ... the <transcript> element would be what contains the transcript
  1664. # [19:48] <timeless> ... and transcript= would take an idref to that <transcript>
  1665. # [19:49] <timeless> ... there could be a link to an external document, an embedded iframe/div
  1666. # [19:49] <timeless> ... or dynamic html
  1667. # [19:49] <timeless> ... you could get visual highlighting of words as they're spoken
  1668. # [19:49] <timeless> ... the definition of Transcript is very broad and very vague
  1669. # [19:50] <timeless> ... we looked at putting <transcript> as a child of <video>
  1670. # [19:50] <timeless> ... but the UCs for displaying it onscreen would be very messy
  1671. # [19:50] <timeless> ... we haven't gotten implementation by browsers
  1672. # [19:50] <timeless> ... this can't be mothballed [because of legislative consequences]
  1673. # [19:50] <timeless> ... we wanted to have a dialogue in this WG
  1674. # [19:50] <timeless> ... the group that worked on this was 5 or 6 people
  1675. # [19:50] <timeless> ... we need broader input
  1676. # [19:51] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  1677. # [19:51] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/5af0b7eb875841e4a5f923ef596ee8927c1ab0e9
  1678. # [19:51] <gitbot> html/master 5af0b7e stevefaulkner: Update Makefile...
  1679. # [19:51] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  1680. # [19:51] <timeless> MarkVickers: is there a time for when Regulations come into effect?
  1681. # [19:51] <timeless> JF: it's complicated, it's an international question
  1682. # [19:51] <timeless> ... we don't have a specific date on a caendar
  1683. # [19:51] <timeless> ... there's the US Digital Communication Act
  1684. # [19:51] <timeless> ... the area of video accessibility on the web
  1685. # [19:52] <timeless> ... sooner rather than later
  1686. # [19:52] <timeless> ... legislation will probably lead demand
  1687. # [19:52] <paulc> q?
  1688. # [19:52] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
  1689. # [19:52] <timeless> MarkVickers: there's a captioning requirement coming into effect in January
  1690. # [19:52] <timeless> JF: we're hearing feedback when we talk to accessibility providers
  1691. # [19:52] <timeless> ... it would be huge when you have a Professor drawing a venn diagram on a blackboard
  1692. # [19:53] <timeless> ... in a University
  1693. # [19:53] <timeless> ... we have legislative requirements for this
  1694. # [19:53] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1695. # [19:53] <timeless> ... we need a standardized solution ... in HTML5, 5.1, or extension
  1696. # [19:53] <timeless> ack hober
  1697. # [19:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1698. # [19:53] <timeless> hober: JF's description is pretty accurate
  1699. # [19:53] * Joins: rubys_ (~rubys@public.cloak)
  1700. # [19:53] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
  1701. # [19:53] <timeless> ... we had an active survey on 2 proposals when Plan 2014 was adopted
  1702. # [19:54] <timeless> ... by adopting Plan 2014, we agreed people interested in pursuing this could proposal proposals
  1703. # [19:54] <timeless> ... i'm not aware of new technical issues
  1704. # [19:54] <timeless> ... i think we've talked about this a lot
  1705. # [19:54] <timeless> ... the next step is writing an extension spec
  1706. # [19:54] <timeless> paulc: one or two?
  1707. # [19:54] <timeless> hober: i'd expect 2, as there are two proposals
  1708. # [19:55] <timeless> ... unless someone leads to convergence
  1709. # [19:55] <timeless> paulc: is that what you want, JF ?
  1710. # [19:55] <timeless> JF: if that's the only feedback we get from the group
  1711. # [19:55] <timeless> ... we haven't gotten feedback from the implementers
  1712. # [19:55] <timeless> ... my perception is that this has been low under the radar
  1713. # [19:55] <timeless> ... as other issues have been dealt with
  1714. # [19:55] <timeless> ... but this could spike very quickly
  1715. # [19:55] <timeless> ... we need to actively engage on this
  1716. # [19:55] <timeless> q?
  1717. # [19:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1718. # [19:56] <timeless> [ rubys projects Plan 2014 ]
  1719. # [19:56] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1720. # [19:56] <timeless> paulc: "when you want cookies, don't go to the shoe counter"
  1721. # [19:56] <timeless> ... i understand you're coming here
  1722. # [19:56] <timeless> ... but this says the TF has the authority to produce specs
  1723. # [19:56] <timeless> ... the TF is encouraged to converge onto a single solution
  1724. # [19:57] <timeless> ... i'm a fairly regular attendee
  1725. # [19:57] <timeless> ... i don't think this item has been on the agenda
  1726. # [19:57] <timeless> ... this was a clear agenda from 2014
  1727. # [19:57] <timeless> ... wonder what happened to other items on this list
  1728. # [19:57] <timeless> SteveF: when i first became co-chair of the TF
  1729. # [19:57] <timeless> ... i approached people involved
  1730. # [19:57] <timeless> ... including hober
  1731. # [19:57] <timeless> ... asking whether they'd be interested in developing extension specs
  1732. # [19:58] <timeless> ... i didn't get any positive response
  1733. # [19:58] <timeless> ... it hasn't been brought up since then
  1734. # [19:58] <timeless> q?
  1735. # [19:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1736. # [19:58] <timeless> chaals: i'm chairing the next TF meeting
  1737. # [19:58] <timeless> ... i've noted it for the agenda
  1738. # [19:58] <timeless> paulc: anyone can write an extension spec
  1739. # [19:58] <timeless> ... if we don't have volunteers to write them
  1740. # [19:58] <timeless> ... maybe we'll have two
  1741. # [19:58] <timeless> ... history of this was
  1742. # [19:58] <timeless> ... - two different approaches
  1743. # [19:59] <timeless> paulc: 1 lawyer in town goes broke, 2 in a town make a lot of money
  1744. # [19:59] <timeless> ... if you want convergence, write your extension spec
  1745. # [19:59] <timeless> ... that will probably get the other to come out of the woodwork
  1746. # [19:59] <timeless> ... until one occurs, not much will happen
  1747. # [19:59] <timeless> JF: taking advantage of the people at this F2F
  1748. # [19:59] <timeless> ... the A11Y group has engineering holes
  1749. # [20:00] <timeless> ... we need help
  1750. # [20:00] <timeless> paulc: hober do you remember if we asked
  1751. # [20:00] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
  1752. # [20:00] <timeless> hober: i think we did ask
  1753. # [20:00] <timeless> paulc: we have 2 proposals
  1754. # [20:00] <timeless> ... we tried to get some sense for what implementers would actually implement
  1755. # [20:01] <timeless> ... there's a bit of work to writing an extension spec
  1756. # [20:01] <timeless> ... but JF 's view is
  1757. # [20:01] <timeless> ... this is a piece of functionality which is really important
  1758. # [20:01] <timeless> ... if the implementers would say "yay, we want to do it one way"
  1759. # [20:01] <timeless> ... that would make it easier for us to work on it
  1760. # [20:01] <timeless> chaals: we had preference for design A or B, in varying proportions
  1761. # [20:01] <timeless> ... but the margin of error was the biggest winner
  1762. # [20:02] <timeless> hober: i could take an Action to find the results from that meeting
  1763. # [20:02] <timeless> paulc: my only other suggestion
  1764. # [20:02] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  1765. # [20:02] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/0a9e5b78ccac3d016b0be954cd8fb5ef7cafc8b1
  1766. # [20:02] <gitbot> html/master 0a9e5b7 steve faulkner: tweaked author CSS
  1767. # [20:02] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  1768. # [20:02] <timeless> ... once hober replays that
  1769. # [20:02] <timeless> ... perhaps chaals, we could get more people to the call on that topic
  1770. # [20:02] <timeless> ... failing that, if you want to add it as a topic to a WG meeting
  1771. # [20:02] <timeless> chaals: i think, we raised the thing, noted the issue
  1772. # [20:02] <timeless> ... TF -- go write extension spec
  1773. # [20:02] <timeless> ... see if TF gets consensus
  1774. # [20:03] <timeless> ... if not, bring to WG, see which way we jump
  1775. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> agenda?
  1776. # [20:03] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
  1777. # [20:03] <timeless> mjs: any implementers want to express an opinion?
  1778. # [20:03] <timeless> agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda#Agenda_April_24
  1779. # [20:03] <timeless> agenda?
  1780. # [20:03] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
  1781. # [20:03] * timeless grumbles
  1782. # [20:03] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1783. # [20:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1784. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> q+ to say, note for later: TPAC 2013
  1785. # [20:03] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1786. # [20:04] <timeless> topic: Web Performance WG issues related to HTML5
  1787. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> q-
  1788. # [20:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1789. # [20:04] <timeless> DanielAustin: we started talking yesterday about WebPerf on Media Status codes
  1790. # [20:04] <timeless> ... we met this morning
  1791. # [20:04] <timeless> ... we divided these errors into persistent errors and connection related errors
  1792. # [20:04] <DanielAustin> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/NavigationErrorLogging/Overview.html
  1793. # [20:05] <timeless> ... the spec we mentioned yesterday has been dropped into two drafts
  1794. # [20:05] <timeless> ... my proposal was that since we're doing error logging anyway
  1795. # [20:05] <DanielAustin> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/ResourceErrorLogging/Overview.html
  1796. # [20:05] <timeless> ... it might make sense to join forces
  1797. # [20:05] <timeless> ... between media status codes
  1798. # [20:05] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  1799. # [20:05] <timeless> ... what we're trying to do is supplement the existing Navigation and ResourceTiming APIs
  1800. # [20:05] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek_@public.cloak)
  1801. # [20:05] <timeless> ... we've cataloged a bunch of errors
  1802. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about whether we (HTML WG) already have plans to meet at TPAC 2013
  1803. # [20:06] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1804. # [20:06] <timeless> ... a bunch from the IANA registries and from the HTTP RFCs
  1805. # [20:06] <timeless> ... we added things for DNS
  1806. # [20:06] <timeless> ... but things wouldn't work if we couldn't handle media errors
  1807. # [20:06] <adrianba> q?
  1808. # [20:06] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1809. # [20:06] <adrianba> q+
  1810. # [20:06] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, adrianba on the speaker queue
  1811. # [20:06] <timeless> ... my proposal was to combine forces and have status codes standardized as part of webperf error logging activity
  1812. # [20:07] <timeless> ack adrianba
  1813. # [20:07] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1814. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> q- later
  1815. # [20:07] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1816. # [20:07] <timeless> adrianba: the error codes
  1817. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> q-
  1818. # [20:07] <timeless> ... and types of error
  1819. # [20:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1820. # [20:07] <timeless> ... that you're trying to support w/ these apis are focused on Networking
  1821. # [20:07] <timeless> ... is that true?
  1822. # [20:07] <timeless> DanielAustin: networking and http
  1823. # [20:07] <timeless> ... but we spoke about CSS and JS errors
  1824. # [20:07] <timeless> ... if you're feeling it isn't necessary/don't want to do it now
  1825. # [20:08] <timeless> ... it occurred to me we're working in the same direction
  1826. # [20:08] <timeless> adrianba: my feeling is we're not working in the same direction
  1827. # [20:08] <timeless> ... these things are orthogonal
  1828. # [20:08] <timeless> ... it's possible some communication errors that you're logging might occur during applications doing media playback
  1829. # [20:08] <timeless> ... in that situation, the resource error logging would already be in place
  1830. # [20:08] <timeless> ... should be using some aspect of the Media element, or XHR
  1831. # [20:08] <timeless> ... that would already be covered by the resource logging
  1832. # [20:09] <timeless> ... my question for WebPerf
  1833. # [20:09] <timeless> ... could you give us an example of something that wouldn't be handled by Resource Logging that we should consider?
  1834. # [20:09] <timeless> DanielAustin: my thinking
  1835. # [20:09] <timeless> ... i have a page w/ Media and it fails
  1836. # [20:09] <timeless> ... and you return a status saying media file didn't start
  1837. # [20:09] <timeless> ... as someone reporting diagnostics, i'd want to say why did that fail
  1838. # [20:10] <timeless> ... i have two disconnected systems for logging
  1839. # [20:10] <timeless> ... and i'd have to try to correlate
  1840. # [20:10] <timeless> adrianba: i don't think that's true
  1841. # [20:10] <timeless> ... for the places where that error would occur, i think the resource loading error spec would already cover that
  1842. # [20:10] <timeless> ... the resource loading in media would already be covered by the normal bit
  1843. # [20:10] <timeless> ... in MSE, the JS app is responsible for where it gets data
  1844. # [20:11] <timeless> ... it could be from network, some other api, file api
  1845. # [20:11] <timeless> ... whichever mechanism the app is using
  1846. # [20:11] <timeless> ... if it's loading using network, logging would catch that
  1847. # [20:11] <timeless> ... i don't think that's something not already covered
  1848. # [20:11] <timeless> ... if during WebPerf discussions you identify something
  1849. # [20:11] <timeless> DanielAustin: we split Error Logging from Timing
  1850. # [20:11] <timeless> ... alright, if that's the sense of the group
  1851. # [20:11] <plh> q+
  1852. # [20:11] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  1853. # [20:11] <timeless> q?
  1854. # [20:11] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  1855. # [20:11] <timeless> ack plh
  1856. # [20:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1857. # [20:12] <plh> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Web_Performance/Publications
  1858. # [20:12] <timeless> plh: WebPerf WG...
  1859. # [20:12] <timeless> ... some of them are actually looking at extending the HTML language
  1860. # [20:12] <timeless> ... one is a resource priority specification
  1861. # [20:12] <timeless> ... right now you only have differ= attribute on elements
  1862. # [20:13] <timeless> ... we'd like to see if we can do more with that, for css, ...
  1863. # [20:13] <timeless> ... don't sue us
  1864. # [20:13] <timeless> ... the first draft came up last week
  1865. # [20:13] <timeless> ... it isn't complete of course
  1866. # [20:13] <timeless> ... i wanted to inform this WG
  1867. # [20:13] <timeless> paulc: would this thing label itself an extension spec?
  1868. # [20:13] <timeless> plh: it would be an extension
  1869. # [20:14] <timeless> ... but it might also refer to non html stuff
  1870. # [20:14] <timeless> ... resources linked from css
  1871. # [20:14] <timeless> paulc: so it's a @webplatform extension spec?
  1872. # [20:14] <timeless> XX: which we'd usually call a spec
  1873. # [20:14] <timeless> plh: we'd probably come back to the html-wg when we figure out what we want to do
  1874. # [20:14] <timeless> paulc: you're proposing to change the order in which html, css, js resources are loaded
  1875. # [20:15] <timeless> plh: we're proposing to give control to the UA to change this order
  1876. # [20:15] <timeless> paulc: is order defined in the spec?
  1877. # [20:15] <timeless> plh: for <script> it is
  1878. # [20:15] <timeless> adrianba: there's a processing order required
  1879. # [20:15] <timeless> paulc: downloading is different
  1880. # [20:15] <timeless> plh: we're talking about download
  1881. # [20:15] <timeless> adrianba: clearly it makes sense to make sure things you need first
  1882. # [20:15] <timeless> ... you might download first
  1883. # [20:16] <timeless> ... but spec doesn't require you to download in some order
  1884. # [20:16] <timeless> paulc: are you proposing that the page developer is smarter than the algorithms used today?
  1885. # [20:16] <timeless> plh: yes
  1886. # [20:16] <timeless> adrianba: yes
  1887. # [20:16] <timeless> paulc: ok... alright
  1888. # [20:16] <timeless> q?
  1889. # [20:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1890. # [20:17] <timeless> paulc: surely it wouldn't be mandatory
  1891. # [20:17] <timeless> ... i assume plh that the markup would be advisory?
  1892. # [20:17] <timeless> ... right?
  1893. # [20:17] <timeless> plh: i don't know
  1894. # [20:17] <paulc> An example of error codes in HTML spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/single-page.html#error-codes
  1895. # [20:18] <timeless> paulc: question for DanielAustin
  1896. # [20:18] * Quits: DanielAustin (~DanielAustin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1897. # [20:18] <timeless> ... these are the error codes defined in 4.8.4.1
  1898. # [20:18] <timeless> ... trying to understand
  1899. # [20:19] <timeless> ... if you get media-error-aborted network-error-not-supported
  1900. # [20:19] <timeless> ... you want your logging interface to know which is returned
  1901. # [20:19] <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#error-codes
  1902. # [20:19] <timeless> ... why wouldn't you go through the http spec the same way you went through the error codes?
  1903. # [20:19] <timeless> [ DanielAustin left the room ]
  1904. # [20:20] <timeless> [ DanielAustin returns to the room ]
  1905. # [20:20] <timeless> s/left/had left/
  1906. # [20:20] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask if anybody raised bugs about those type of error codes being used in the EME spec
  1907. # [20:20] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1908. # [20:20] <timeless> adrianba: these are the error codes you can get for media playback
  1909. # [20:20] <timeless> ... this is orthogonal
  1910. # [20:20] <timeless> ... primarily the resource error logging is about stuff that happened at the network layer
  1911. # [20:20] <timeless> ... this is things that happened primarily at the decode layer
  1912. # [20:21] <timeless> ... trying to mix those two things together may not make sense
  1913. # [20:21] <timeless> ... you get something saying that a network error occurred
  1914. # [20:21] <timeless> ... well, you could go to the network error logging
  1915. # [20:21] <timeless> ... this is a higher error together
  1916. # [20:21] <timeless> DanielAustin: we mix layer 4 errors with layer 5 errors with ..
  1917. # [20:22] <timeless> ... - dns, ssl, http
  1918. # [20:22] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  1919. # [20:22] <timeless> ... your spec has similar format to the ones i linked to in irc
  1920. # [20:22] <timeless> ... otherwise your object is a spitting image of the error object we have
  1921. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> q=
  1922. # [20:22] * Zakim MikeSmith, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
  1923. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> q-
  1924. # [20:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1925. # [20:22] <timeless> ... the error imagery is similar
  1926. # [20:23] <timeless> ... your next step is that you'd interrogate your error logging api
  1927. # [20:23] <timeless> adrianba: and this is no different than for an <img>
  1928. # [20:23] <timeless> ... when an error fires on an <img>, that might be from an http source as well
  1929. # [20:23] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  1930. # [20:23] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/674539907acd6ce3baff6bfc8624cf0513952da3
  1931. # [20:23] <gitbot> html/master 6745399 stevefaulkner: Update Makefile...
  1932. # [20:23] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  1933. # [20:23] <timeless> DanielAustin: are these similar
  1934. # [20:23] <timeless> paulc: why didn't WebPerf look at the html5 spec?
  1935. # [20:24] <timeless> ... i found this by looking at the ToC
  1936. # [20:24] <timeless> adrianba: i don't think it's a surprise
  1937. # [20:24] <timeless> ... i still think they're different
  1938. # [20:24] <timeless> paulc: i'm asking WebPerf to do their work
  1939. # [20:24] <timeless> Travis: at what scope do you want to collect these errors
  1940. # [20:24] <timeless> ... we could go deep
  1941. # [20:24] <timeless> ... for every parse error
  1942. # [20:24] <timeless> ... everything that throws an exception/error event
  1943. # [20:25] <timeless> ... you could try to catch that
  1944. # [20:25] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  1945. # [20:25] <timeless> ... at some point you get diminishing returns
  1946. # [20:25] <timeless> DanielAustin: i don't want to get every CSS error
  1947. # [20:25] <timeless> ... WebPerf wants HTTP, anything that's around performance
  1948. # [20:25] <timeless> ... we talked about errors from JS
  1949. # [20:25] <timeless> ... didn't do details
  1950. # [20:25] <timeless> ... it's a harry monster
  1951. # [20:25] <timeless> s/harry/hairy/
  1952. # [20:25] <timeless> ... if it isn't fully baked, i'm happy to take that back to the group
  1953. # [20:26] <timeless> ... but i think there's some scope for cooperation
  1954. # [20:26] <timeless> ... i'd like to hope to avoid multiple collections of errors
  1955. # [20:26] <timeless> ... with similar
  1956. # [20:26] <timeless> paulc: we have lots of schemes
  1957. # [20:26] <timeless> ... the one to rule them all
  1958. # [20:27] <timeless> paulc: adrianba, you see nothing in conflict between what they're doing and what you're doing
  1959. # [20:27] <timeless> ... we're doing something at a higher level
  1960. # [20:27] <timeless> ... but the UA could provide this through the interface if it wanted to
  1961. # [20:27] <timeless> ... i don't see anywhere in the html 5 spec where we try to do what they're doing
  1962. # [20:27] <timeless> adrianba: there are all kinds of parts of HTML5 spec and other specs
  1963. # [20:28] <timeless> ... that make requests from the network
  1964. # [20:28] <timeless> ... we don't specify
  1965. # [20:28] <timeless> ... once you get the URI for something
  1966. # [20:28] <timeless> ... exactly how you go and get that resource
  1967. # [20:28] <timeless> ... resource error reporting
  1968. # [20:28] <timeless> ... is at that layer
  1969. # [20:28] <timeless> ... it's different to what's in scope here
  1970. # [20:28] <timeless> Travis: it's worth considering the lens at which you're considering
  1971. # [20:28] <timeless> ... does it affect perf
  1972. # [20:28] <timeless> ... Parser, it's going to parse the same way
  1973. # [20:29] <timeless> DanielAustin: i'll take that back to the WebPerf WG
  1974. # [20:29] <timeless> ... and look through HTML spec
  1975. # [20:29] <timeless> ... all through, i think error logging is really important
  1976. # [20:29] <timeless> ... if everyone is defining an object similar to what's being defined here
  1977. # [20:29] <timeless> ... that's a duplication
  1978. # [20:29] <timeless> Travis: i'd point you to WebRTC
  1979. # [20:29] <timeless> ... who have a bunch of other errors
  1980. # [20:29] <timeless> DanielAustin: i'll take that back to WebPerf
  1981. # [20:30] <timeless> ... we'll talk about this
  1982. # [20:30] <timeless> topic: HTML WG Charter status
  1983. # [20:30] <timeless> paulc: "The F2F discussed the charter."
  1984. # [20:32] <timeless> [ minutes will be collated here later ]
  1985. # [20:34] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  1986. # [20:34] <gitbot> [html-tools] darobin pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html-tools/commit/387fff26b78efcf334f38be823d89c177dcc8216
  1987. # [20:34] <gitbot> html-tools/master 387fff2 Robin Berjon: copy over the switcher directory
  1988. # [20:34] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  1989. # [20:37] * Joins: CyrilRa (~CyrilRa@public.cloak)
  1990. # [20:39] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  1991. # [20:40] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
  1992. # [20:40] * Joins: bryan_ (~bryan@public.cloak)
  1993. # [20:42] * Quits: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  1994. # [20:42] * Quits: CyrilRa (~CyrilRa@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  1995. # [20:42] * Joins: CyrilRa (~CyrilRa@public.cloak)
  1996. # [20:44] * Quits: CyrilRa (~CyrilRa@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  1997. # [20:44] * Joins: CyrilRa (~CyrilRa@public.cloak)
  1998. # [20:45] * timeless http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/
  1999. # [20:45] * timeless http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
  2000. # [20:49] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2001. # [20:49] <tantek> q+ jeff
  2002. # [20:49] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
  2003. # [20:50] <paulc> ack jeff
  2004. # [20:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2005. # [20:51] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
  2006. # [20:51] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2007. # [20:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  2008. # [20:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  2009. # [20:54] * Joins: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak)
  2010. # [20:55] <tantek> q+ to mention support for standard open licenses
  2011. # [20:55] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  2012. # [20:56] * Quits: jdsmith (~jdsmith@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2013. # [20:56] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
  2014. # [20:57] <tantek> q-
  2015. # [20:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2016. # [20:57] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  2017. # [20:57] <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal
  2018. # [20:58] <timeless> topic: W3C TPAC meeting, Shenzhen, China, Nov 11-15
  2019. # [20:58] <timeless> paulc: note that the date of the meetin
  2020. # [20:58] <timeless> s/meetin/meeting/
  2021. # [20:58] <timeless> ... the original dates would be one week later
  2022. # [20:58] <timeless> ... but nov 17 has the largest IT conference in Shenzhen
  2023. # [20:58] <timeless> ... so the decision was made w/ W3C and the sponsor Tenzent
  2024. # [20:58] * timeless ??
  2025. # [20:59] <timeless> ... to move the week one week earlier
  2026. # [20:59] <timeless> s/Tenzent/Tencent/
  2027. # [20:59] <timeless> ... location of a meeting affects who attends
  2028. # [20:59] <timeless> ... W3C is aware that having a meeting in China
  2029. # [20:59] <timeless> ... may decrease the number of usual suspects
  2030. # [21:00] <timeless> ... and increase the number of Chinese suspects
  2031. # [21:00] <timeless> ... it's not uncommon for chairs to get observers when we come to the Bay Area
  2032. # [21:00] <timeless> ... i want to make people aware of the fact that there are plans to have the meeting in Shenzhen
  2033. # [21:01] <timeless> ... it's 1 hour by train / subway, or ferry from Hong Kong
  2034. # [21:01] <timeless> darobin: you want to fly to Hong Kong
  2035. # [21:01] <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/2013/11/TPAC/
  2036. # [21:01] <timeless> paulc: i won't say who can get a special visa to enter the special administrative zone
  2037. # [21:01] <timeless> ... it changes all the time
  2038. # [21:01] <jeff> q+ to comment on Visas
  2039. # [21:01] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
  2040. # [21:01] <timeless> ... current assumption is TPAC like any other TPAC
  2041. # [21:01] <timeless> ... MT-ThF for meetings
  2042. # [21:01] <timeless> ... w/ Plenary on W
  2043. # [21:02] <timeless> ... intent here to put this item on the table
  2044. # [21:02] <timeless> ... to make people aware this is likely to be where this F2F will be
  2045. # [21:02] <timeless> ... the draft charter specifically permits the HTML WG to have 2 F2Fs a year
  2046. # [21:02] <timeless> ... this meeting here now is our first
  2047. # [21:02] <timeless> ... the second would be at TPAC
  2048. # [21:02] <timeless> ack jeff
  2049. # [21:02] <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on Visas
  2050. # [21:02] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2051. # [21:02] <timeless> jeff: depending on where you're coming from / going to, your mileage will differ
  2052. # [21:03] <timeless> ... our Chinese host in BayHung University has graciously offered to issue Visa Invitations
  2053. # [21:03] <timeless> ... I can't speak for the Chinese government
  2054. # [21:03] <timeless> ... we've gotten assurances from our host and our sponsor that they can get people the visas they need
  2055. # [21:03] <timeless> paulc: in most cases, the only way to do it is in your country of residence
  2056. # [21:04] * Quits: CyrilRa (~CyrilRa@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  2057. # [21:04] <timeless> ... MS has rules as well on business visas
  2058. # [21:04] <timeless> ... because they generate a sponsoring letter
  2059. # [21:04] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  2060. # [21:04] <timeless> ... in Ottawa, you go in a day, hand in passport
  2061. # [21:04] <timeless> ... get it back the next day
  2062. # [21:04] <timeless> ... don't know if anyone has any questions about this
  2063. # [21:04] <timeless> ... there was some question about internet connectivity
  2064. # [21:05] <timeless> ... laptop security
  2065. # [21:05] <timeless> ... those were discussed at the chairs meeting
  2066. # [21:05] <timeless> jeff: on internet connectivity
  2067. # [21:05] <timeless> ... there's some successful record of when they host meetings such as this
  2068. # [21:05] <timeless> ... that even sites such as Facebook/Google are blocked
  2069. # [21:05] <timeless> ... they have a way of getting international visitors access for sites
  2070. # [21:05] <timeless> ... our hosts will work to get reasonably unfiltered internet connectivity
  2071. # [21:05] <timeless> ... on laptop security
  2072. # [21:06] <timeless> ... that's something that people have different levels of concern/worries about
  2073. # [21:06] <timeless> ... i've spoken to people who work for companies
  2074. # [21:06] <timeless> ... with no issue whatsoever
  2075. # [21:06] <timeless> ... i've heard other people who work for other companies who have some concern
  2076. # [21:06] <timeless> ... first advice is
  2077. # [21:06] <timeless> ... consult your corporate policies
  2078. # [21:06] <timeless> ... for W3 Team
  2079. # [21:06] <timeless> ... we've had conversation internally
  2080. # [21:06] <timeless> ... a lot of the W3 Team is headquartered at MIT
  2081. # [21:07] <timeless> ... MIT has a well defined policy for traveling with your laptop
  2082. # [21:07] <timeless> ... if you do these things, you should be comfortable traveling w/ your laptop anywhere in the world
  2083. # [21:07] <timeless> ... if not, you shouldn't be traveling with it anywhere in the world
  2084. # [21:07] <timeless> ... it's about hygiene of protecting your data
  2085. # [21:07] <timeless> ... if you want to travel w/ a "clean" laptop
  2086. # [21:08] <timeless> ... people are encouraged to do what they feel comfortable
  2087. # [21:08] <timeless> paulc: that's fine
  2088. # [21:08] <timeless> ... whenever i talk about this meeting to anyone involved at W3, those items come up
  2089. # [21:08] <timeless> ... that and how to get in/out of the country
  2090. # [21:08] <timeless> ... in general, HTML WG meets ThF
  2091. # [21:08] <timeless> ... we coordinate w/ WebApps, which meets MT
  2092. # [21:08] <timeless> ... we presume we'd continue to do that
  2093. # [21:08] <timeless> ... i can't see any reason to change that
  2094. # [21:09] <timeless> ... sometimes people prefer to get away or arrive early
  2095. # [21:09] <timeless> ... i think we'd stick with what we have done in the past
  2096. # [21:09] <timeless> ... any personal/private questions, you can talk to myself or jeff
  2097. # [21:09] <timeless> [ Lunch ]
  2098. # [21:09] * Quits: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
  2099. # [21:09] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  2100. # [21:09] * Quits: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  2101. # [21:09] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2102. # [21:12] * Quits: MarkS (msadecki@public.cloak)
  2103. # [21:12] * Quits: eliot (~eliot@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2104. # [21:13] * Quits: SteveF (~SteveF@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2105. # [21:13] * Quits: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2106. # [21:15] * Quits: glenn (~glenn@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2107. # [21:18] * Joins: glenn (~glenn@public.cloak)
  2108. # [21:18] * Quits: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2109. # [21:21] * Quits: LeifHalvardSilli (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2110. # [21:21] * Joins: LeifHalvardSilli_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  2111. # [21:21] * LeifHalvardSilli_ is now known as LeifHalvardSilli
  2112. # [21:22] * Joins: darobin_ (rberjon@public.cloak)
  2113. # [21:22] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2114. # [21:24] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  2115. # [21:24] * Quits: ddorwin (~ddorwin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2116. # [21:25] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@public.cloak)
  2117. # [21:29] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2118. # [21:29] * davidb_ is now known as davidb
  2119. # [21:34] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2120. # [21:57] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
  2121. # [22:05] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
  2122. # [22:08] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  2123. # [22:08] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
  2124. # [22:11] * Joins: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak)
  2125. # [22:11] * Joins: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak)
  2126. # [22:13] * Joins: Jungkee (~Jungkee@public.cloak)
  2127. # [22:14] <timeless> topic: Check status on other extension specs
  2128. # [22:14] <timeless> paulc: i think we did that for longdesc= and Ruby
  2129. # [22:14] <timeless> ... and Polyglot, Microdata, and <main>
  2130. # [22:14] <timeless> ... we talked about heartbeat
  2131. # [22:15] <timeless> ... i think that's covered
  2132. # [22:15] <timeless> ... we did MSE, EME
  2133. # [22:15] <timeless> ... i believe that item is done
  2134. # [22:15] <timeless> ... so, we did all the items on our agenda for today
  2135. # [22:15] <timeless> ... and then we have an item for review passive exit criteria
  2136. # [22:15] <timeless> ... had we been in yesterday's room
  2137. # [22:15] <timeless> ... with round tables
  2138. # [22:15] <timeless> ... i'd have split us around the tables
  2139. # [22:16] <timeless> [ paulc describes chairing a group on web services in Hawaii ]
  2140. # [22:16] <timeless> s/.. and then we have an item for/Topic:/
  2141. # [22:16] <timeless> s/... had/paulc: had/
  2142. # [22:17] <timeless> paulc: i'd be tempted to take the HTML ToC
  2143. # [22:17] <timeless> ... and put it into a spreadsheet
  2144. # [22:17] <timeless> ... i don't know if darobin_ would be interested in doing that
  2145. # [22:17] * Joins: MarkS (msadecki@public.cloak)
  2146. # [22:18] <timeless> ... the goal is to make the test suite as small as possible
  2147. # [22:18] <timeless> ... it might be that the WG says we have interoperability
  2148. # [22:18] <timeless> ... and we have tests
  2149. # [22:18] <timeless> ... maybe someone should test the tests
  2150. # [22:18] <timeless> ... to see if we have partial proof of interop
  2151. # [22:18] <timeless> ... perhaps the tests are broken
  2152. # [22:18] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
  2153. # [22:18] <timeless> ... the Implementation, the Spec, and the Test can be broken
  2154. # [22:18] <timeless> darobin_: even several at once
  2155. # [22:19] <timeless> paulc: rubys put up the document
  2156. # [22:19] <timeless> [ html/wg/drafts/html/master ]
  2157. # [22:19] <jeff> q+
  2158. # [22:19] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
  2159. # [22:19] <timeless> krisk: you can skip section 1
  2160. # [22:19] <timeless> darobin_: it might be better to just scan through the actual document
  2161. # [22:19] <timeless> ... sometimes the titles are deceptively simple
  2162. # [22:20] <timeless> paulc: where do we start?
  2163. # [22:20] <timeless> chaals: common microsyntaxes
  2164. # [22:20] <timeless> krisk: there's a bit on character encoding in terminology
  2165. # [22:20] <timeless> ... but it's covered later
  2166. # [22:20] <timeless> paulc: oh, your machine is thinking
  2167. # [22:21] <timeless> [ Connecting to dvcs.w3.org ]
  2168. # [22:22] * timeless waits for someone to drop linnk
  2169. # [22:22] * Quits: rubys_ (~rubys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2170. # [22:22] * Joins: eliot (~eliot@public.cloak)
  2171. # [22:23] <chaals> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#common-microsyntaxes
  2172. # [22:23] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#common-microsyntaxes
  2173. # [22:23] * Quits: rubys (~rubys2@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2174. # [22:24] <timeless> paulc: if you don't get floating point, or NaNs right
  2175. # [22:24] <timeless> ... you're already screwed
  2176. # [22:25] <timeless> MikeSmith: there are differences
  2177. # [22:25] * Quits: rubys0 (~sruby@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2178. # [22:25] <timeless> ... the list of White_Space characters is different from everywhere else
  2179. # [22:25] <timeless> darobin_: i'm sure if we write tests for corner cases for that, we'll find bugs
  2180. # [22:25] <timeless> ... are those corner cases important enough to make blocking for REC
  2181. # [22:25] <timeless> paulc: to me, the test is, does it disturb the user's experience?
  2182. # [22:26] <timeless> MikeSmith: bad White_Space will disturb user experience
  2183. # [22:26] <timeless> ... what's the target?
  2184. # [22:26] <timeless> chaals: "pretty much works"
  2185. # [22:26] <timeless> krisk: would be good to identify areas that are sensitive
  2186. # [22:26] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Sep/0215.html
  2187. # [22:26] <chaals> q+ jeff
  2188. # [22:26] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
  2189. # [22:27] <timeless> MikeSmith: seems to be "something that exposed to web content"
  2190. # [22:27] <timeless> s/content/content as a feature/
  2191. # [22:27] <timeless> ack jeff
  2192. # [22:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2193. # [22:27] <timeless> jeff: darobin_ asked about corner cases
  2194. # [22:27] <timeless> ... if we didn't use the permissive criteria, we'd have come up w/ tests
  2195. # [22:27] <timeless> ... anything corner cases we wouldn't need to think about
  2196. # [22:28] <timeless> ... anything that would be exposed by existing tests, we'd need to think about
  2197. # [22:28] <timeless> [ ?? ]
  2198. # [22:28] <timeless> darobin_: if we wrote all tests for this, w/o extreme detail
  2199. # [22:28] <timeless> jeff: the typical thing
  2200. # [22:28] <timeless> darobin_: would we catch those corner cases?
  2201. # [22:28] <timeless> ... i'm not sure
  2202. # [22:28] <timeless> ... catching corner cases would be rather deliberate
  2203. # [22:29] <timeless> ... i don't think we'll get errors unless we sought out to get them
  2204. # [22:29] <timeless> ... there's a difference between Space Characters and White_Space characters
  2205. # [22:29] <timeless> ... i'd be surprised if someone didn't get it wrong
  2206. # [22:29] <timeless> jeff: normal testing of specs doesn't catch corner cases
  2207. # [22:29] <timeless> ... look at a spec
  2208. # [22:30] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
  2209. # [22:30] <timeless> ... if it's sufficiently used in the marketplace
  2210. # [22:30] <timeless> ... the marketplace has done "good enough", and thus we can skip this section
  2211. # [22:30] <timeless> ... talking about this spec
  2212. # [22:30] <timeless> MikeSmith: as long as we're talking about this one
  2213. # [22:30] <adrianba> q?
  2214. # [22:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2215. # [22:30] <darobin_> q+ to ask that we not revisit the discussion we had yesterday
  2216. # [22:30] * Zakim sees darobin_ on the speaker queue
  2217. # [22:30] <timeless> chaals: MikeSmith, there's a tension between shipping and perfection
  2218. # [22:30] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  2219. # [22:31] <timeless> ... here's a pretty reliable spec, while we do the next version
  2220. # [22:31] <timeless> ... while we do fixes in next+1
  2221. # [22:31] <MikeSmith> q+ to say, because interoperability
  2222. # [22:31] * Zakim sees darobin_, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  2223. # [22:31] <timeless> ... if we did perfection, it'd be useless
  2224. # [22:31] <timeless> ... people want to build interop
  2225. # [22:31] <timeless> ... people do things that are normal
  2226. # [22:31] <timeless> ... it's valuable to ship something that's, recognized not perfect, but will be fixed
  2227. # [22:31] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  2228. # [22:31] <timeless> MikeSmith: you don't find the pain points w/o testing
  2229. # [22:32] <timeless> ... entire platform is not corner cases
  2230. # [22:32] <timeless> chaals: <p> elements work
  2231. # [22:32] <paulc> q+
  2232. # [22:32] * Zakim sees darobin_, MikeSmith, paulc on the speaker queue
  2233. # [22:32] <timeless> ack darobin
  2234. # [22:32] <Zakim> darobin_, you wanted to ask that we not revisit the discussion we had yesterday
  2235. # [22:32] <darobin> ack me
  2236. # [22:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, paulc on the speaker queue
  2237. # [22:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, paulc on the speaker queue
  2238. # [22:32] <MikeSmith> q+ to say, the entre Web platform is corner cases
  2239. # [22:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, paulc on the speaker queue
  2240. # [22:32] <timeless> darobin: i agree, we need a wonderful test suite for the platform
  2241. # [22:32] <timeless> ... we're working on it
  2242. # [22:32] <timeless> ... we do need to ship
  2243. # [22:32] <timeless> ... i'd like the Patent Policy to apply to HTML5
  2244. # [22:33] <timeless> ... it'd be nice for the Patent portfolio to apply
  2245. # [22:33] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2246. # [22:33] <timeless> ... we can keep working on improving the test suite
  2247. # [22:33] <timeless> ... we don't have to have finished the test suite in order to ship
  2248. # [22:33] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak)
  2249. # [22:33] <timeless> ... we iterate, we ship 5.1 in a few years
  2250. # [22:33] <rubys> q+
  2251. # [22:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, paulc, rubys on the speaker queue
  2252. # [22:33] <timeless> ... instead of trying to get the perfect test suite
  2253. # [22:33] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
  2254. # [22:33] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say, because interoperability and to say, the entre Web platform is corner cases
  2255. # [22:33] * Zakim sees paulc, rubys on the speaker queue
  2256. # [22:33] <timeless> MikeSmith: nobody is saying the goal here is perfect
  2257. # [22:34] <timeless> ... the goal is to find bugs, and expose them before they get exposed to users
  2258. # [22:34] * Joins: yosuke_ (~yosuke_@public.cloak)
  2259. # [22:34] <timeless> ... i understand what we're doing here
  2260. # [22:34] <timeless> ... the rhetoric isn't necessary
  2261. # [22:34] <timeless> ... we've set a deadline
  2262. # [22:34] <timeless> ... it doesn't sound like
  2263. # [22:34] <timeless> chaals: sounds like what i said i was saying
  2264. # [22:35] <timeless> MikeSmith: this isn't the right message to send to consumers of this specification
  2265. # [22:35] <timeless> ... it isn't perfect, but this is good enough
  2266. # [22:35] <jeff> q+ to support Mike
  2267. # [22:35] * Zakim sees paulc, rubys, jeff on the speaker queue
  2268. # [22:35] <timeless> ... that's not acceptable
  2269. # [22:35] <timeless> ack paulc
  2270. # [22:35] * Zakim sees rubys, jeff on the speaker queue
  2271. # [22:35] <timeless> paulc: the model i'd propose here
  2272. # [22:35] <timeless> ... may partially deal w/ your concern, MikeSmith
  2273. # [22:35] <timeless> ... i'd like to go through and identify sections for which we think no further testing is required
  2274. # [22:35] <timeless> ... and publish that list
  2275. # [22:35] <timeless> ... and say "this is a call for objection"
  2276. # [22:36] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
  2277. # [22:36] * Joins: Jin_Peng (~Jin_Peng@public.cloak)
  2278. # [22:36] <timeless> ... if someone thinks there's a problem w/ whitespace, then they can object w/ a test case
  2279. # [22:36] <timeless> MikeSmith: i'm not talking about whitespace
  2280. # [22:36] <timeless> paulc: i'm talking about an algorithm
  2281. # [22:36] <timeless> darobin: this is a way to find ...
  2282. # [22:36] <timeless> [ cross talk ]
  2283. # [22:37] <timeless> ack rubys
  2284. # [22:37] * Zakim sees jeff on the speaker queue
  2285. # [22:37] <timeless> rubys: we need a micro-exit criteria for getting passed individual sections
  2286. # [22:37] <timeless> ... i was part of the discussion of the previous discussion
  2287. # [22:37] <timeless> ... we need a spec better than HTML4 and XHTML1
  2288. # [22:37] * Quits: tantek_ (~tantek_@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2289. # [22:37] <timeless> ... "is this section better than HTML4 and XHTML1" or "do we need more testing to determine that"
  2290. # [22:37] <timeless> ack jeff
  2291. # [22:37] <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to support Mike
  2292. # [22:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2293. # [22:38] <timeless> jeff: i wanted to partly agree and partly disagree w/ MikeSmith
  2294. # [22:38] <tantek> the "well it's better than HTML4 and XHTML1" is not a particularly high bar
  2295. # [22:38] <timeless> ... paulc started by saying "the objective here is to minimize the number of tests we have to create"
  2296. # [22:38] <timeless> ... the objective is to increase interoperability in a reasonable amount of time
  2297. # [22:38] <krisk> q+
  2298. # [22:38] * Zakim sees krisk on the speaker queue
  2299. # [22:38] <timeless> ... i wasn't suggesting ignore/not ignoring corner cases (as we spoke about whitespace)
  2300. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> there are about 5 testable assertions in the entire HTML4 spec
  2301. # [22:39] <timeless> ... but what's our confidence level that a particular section is testing in the field
  2302. # [22:39] <krisk> q-
  2303. # [22:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2304. # [22:39] <timeless> ... to the extent that we'd have tested it internally
  2305. # [22:39] <timeless> MikeSmith: that's an odd criteria to use, not one we've ever used
  2306. # [22:39] <timeless> ... it doesn't seem sound at a high level
  2307. # [22:39] <timeless> jeff: we need some criteria
  2308. # [22:40] <timeless> ... when we go to the director
  2309. # [22:40] <timeless> ... we've tested these this way, and these that way
  2310. # [22:40] <timeless> ... the director will say "how did you decide"
  2311. # [22:40] <tantek> MikeSmith - to be fair, there are far more than 5 testable assertions in HTML4, more like dozens or hundreds: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Test/HTML401/current/assertions/assertions_toc.html
  2312. # [22:40] <timeless> ... the point rubys made is "we should have some criteria"
  2313. # [22:40] <chaals> ["shipping is a feature"]
  2314. # [22:40] <timeless> glenn: mjs expressed this well
  2315. # [22:41] <timeless> ... give a priority to timing
  2316. # [22:41] <timeless> ... and overtetsing
  2317. # [22:41] <bryan_> +1 to the need for clear criteria and documented evidence per it, both for permissive passing and otherwise
  2318. # [22:41] <timeless> s/tets/test/
  2319. # [22:41] <timeless> ... the industry and consumers want everything
  2320. # [22:41] <timeless> ... timing, quick testing, interop
  2321. # [22:41] <timeless> ... we have to make choices
  2322. # [22:41] <chaals> s/and overtesting/over testing/
  2323. # [22:41] <timeless> ... we agree timing takes priority
  2324. # [22:41] <timeless> ... someone who wants to prioritize testing more, they should take onus
  2325. # [22:42] <timeless> ... --- we may diverge into a discussion on metrics
  2326. # [22:42] * Joins: SteveF (~SteveF@public.cloak)
  2327. # [22:42] <timeless> paulc: jeff, the criteria says
  2328. # [22:42] <tantek> q+ to ask if there are any criteria for minimum number of tests per feature/section?
  2329. # [22:42] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  2330. # [22:42] <timeless> ... "in any case where judgement is debatable
  2331. # [22:42] <timeless> ... it will be a WG decision on interop"
  2332. # [22:42] <SteveF> present+ SteveF
  2333. # [22:42] <timeless> ... chairs could ask WG for a decision
  2334. # [22:43] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  2335. # [22:43] <timeless> ... anyone could have a different reason
  2336. # [22:43] <timeless> paulc: i find it ironic that i'm at a WG meeting and having a discussion w/ 3 members of W3 Team
  2337. # [22:43] <timeless> paulc: darobin, backing up
  2338. # [22:43] <timeless> darobin: 2.5 "common microsyntaxes"
  2339. # [22:44] <timeless> q?
  2340. # [22:44] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  2341. # [22:44] <timeless> ack tantek
  2342. # [22:44] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask if there are any criteria for minimum number of tests per feature/section?
  2343. # [22:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2344. # [22:44] <timeless> tantek: there's a nontrivial amount on date/time formats
  2345. # [22:44] <timeless> ... i don't think there's a lot of interop
  2346. # [22:44] <timeless> ... they're pretty freshly new
  2347. # [22:44] <timeless> paulc: using rubys 's criteria
  2348. # [22:45] <timeless> ... your point is 2.5.5 "dates and times"
  2349. # [22:45] <timeless> ... is possibly new and could be a target of testing
  2350. # [22:45] <timeless> ... that's a good critera, tantek, thank you
  2351. # [22:45] <timeless> darobin: is it surfaced to be testable?
  2352. # [22:45] <timeless> krisk: they're reflected, but not transformed
  2353. # [22:45] <timeless> tantek: you could test it from a validation perspective
  2354. # [22:45] <timeless> ... handy for content authors and search engines
  2355. # [22:46] <timeless> ... wanted to call out this section v. html4
  2356. # [22:46] <timeless> ... and new for standards
  2357. # [22:46] <timeless> krisk: propose that when we talk about sections
  2358. # [22:46] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  2359. # [22:46] <timeless> ... we break it into is it "UA" or "validator"
  2360. # [22:46] <timeless> darobin: in the interest of going through relatively quickly
  2361. # [22:46] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2362. # [22:46] <timeless> ... if someone is not comfortable, we get a quick sentence and add it to the test list
  2363. # [22:46] <timeless> paulc: if we keep features at-risk in cache
  2364. # [22:47] <timeless> ... <input type=date> <input type=time> <input type=datetime> that are in at-risk
  2365. # [22:47] <timeless> darobin: they're also used in <time>
  2366. # [22:47] <timeless> paulc: one candidate, thanks tantek
  2367. # [22:48] <timeless> rubys: 2.5.6 "Colors"
  2368. # [22:48] <timeless> paulc: i can't see them often
  2369. # [22:48] <timeless> [ rubys drives through ]
  2370. # [22:48] <timeless> paulc: what do we do when HTML5 has a Normative reference to another spec
  2371. # [22:49] <timeless> tantek: punt on testing to that normative spec
  2372. # [22:49] <timeless> darobin: yes
  2373. # [22:49] <timeless> paulc: trying to follow jeff 's suggestion, as we find patterns
  2374. # [22:49] * jeff thanks, Paul.
  2375. # [22:49] <timeless> krisk: Media Queries is done in CSS
  2376. # [22:49] <timeless> paulc: tell Director, he approved it once, he should again
  2377. # [22:49] <timeless> rubys: 2.6 "URLs"
  2378. # [22:49] <timeless> darobin: bloody nightmare
  2379. # [22:50] <timeless> krisk: needs more testing
  2380. # [22:50] <timeless> paulc: what about it?
  2381. # [22:50] <timeless> darobin: there's no interop on urls whatsover
  2382. # [22:50] <timeless> [ krisk's statement is laughed at ]
  2383. # [22:50] <timeless> chaals: dynamic changes to base urls is unlikely to be what it says
  2384. # [22:50] <timeless> darobin: anne has tests for urls
  2385. # [22:50] <timeless> krisk: masinter has tests
  2386. # [22:51] <timeless> MikeSmith: chris webber has a bunch
  2387. # [22:51] <timeless> paulc: are these URLs bad formed?
  2388. # [22:51] <tantek> for a good time some of the challenges that URLs present, I give you: http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-pieces
  2389. # [22:51] <timeless> ... and it fetches
  2390. # [22:51] <timeless> darobin: it might fetch a resource, but not the one you want
  2391. # [22:51] <timeless> ... if you mix Unicode w/ URLs you get worlds of pleasure
  2392. # [22:51] <timeless> paulc: darobin, if you know what's in the test suite, it'd be nice to know what's there
  2393. # [22:52] <timeless> darobin: going sync for that will take forever
  2394. # [22:52] <timeless> [ "Fetching Resources" ]
  2395. # [22:52] <tantek> here is an tweet containing a URL that is non-interop in a number of ways: https://twitter.com/codepo8/status/327070476977446914
  2396. # [22:52] <timeless> MikeSmith: that's a WIP
  2397. # [22:52] <timeless> ... it will be split out
  2398. # [22:52] <timeless> Travis: that other spec is not a W3 spec
  2399. # [22:52] <timeless> paulc: it's not germane to our CR
  2400. # [22:52] <timeless> darobin: getting an open license would maybe make it easier to re-import
  2401. # [22:52] <tantek> example of a real world URL that has interop problems: http://tsa.gov/tsa-pre✓™
  2402. # [22:53] <timeless> paulc: does this need testing?
  2403. # [22:53] <tantek> (yes, with the checkmark and trademark symbols included)
  2404. # [22:53] <timeless> rubys: we've lost control of the meeting
  2405. # [22:54] * Joins: ddorwin (~ddorwin@public.cloak)
  2406. # [22:54] <timeless> MikeSmith: end users / people developing web content
  2407. # [22:54] <timeless> ... don't see it as a feature
  2408. # [22:54] <timeless> ... they can fetch resources, but sometime it does get what they want
  2409. # [22:55] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
  2410. # [22:55] <timeless> darobin: don't focus on testing fetch here
  2411. # [22:55] <timeless> ... we want to test it broader
  2412. # [22:55] <timeless> paulc: there are subsections here
  2413. # [22:55] <timeless> darobin: there's a reason it's being moved outside
  2414. # [22:55] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  2415. # [22:55] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
  2416. # [22:55] <timeless> paulc: would have been funny to mark Fetch AT-RISK
  2417. # [22:55] <timeless> MikeSmith: it isn't that kind of feature to be tested
  2418. # [22:55] <timeless> paulc: objection?
  2419. # [22:55] <timeless> [ silence ]
  2420. # [22:56] <timeless> [ "Common DOM interfaces" ]
  2421. # [22:56] <timeless> darobin: reflecting i think is ok
  2422. # [22:56] <timeless> chaals: +1
  2423. # [22:56] <timeless> darobin: Transferable is there, but not test there
  2424. # [22:57] * Joins: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak)
  2425. # [22:57] * Quits: bryan_ (~bryan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2426. # [22:57] <timeless> MikeSmith: odd place for Transferables to live
  2427. # [22:57] <timeless> paulc: are they elsewhere?
  2428. # [22:57] <timeless> MikeSmith: they're w/ WebWorkers
  2429. # [22:57] <timeless> darobin: let's not rewrite the spec as we go
  2430. # [22:57] <bryan> q+
  2431. # [22:57] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
  2432. # [22:57] <timeless> ... or else we won't make it to section 3
  2433. # [22:57] <timeless> krisk: there are tests for it
  2434. # [22:58] <timeless> darobin: i don't want to test 2.8.6 "DOM feature strings"
  2435. # [22:58] <timeless> ... 2.8.7 "Garbage collection", i don't know what we'd test
  2436. # [22:59] <timeless> ack bryan
  2437. # [22:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2438. # [22:59] <timeless> bryan: Ben put up a page w/ assertions outline count
  2439. # [22:59] <timeless> ... i'd like a clear rationale for why we're skipping
  2440. # [22:59] <timeless> darobin: i'm capturing it
  2441. # [22:59] <timeless> paulc: that's why i have dual scribes (timeless, darobin)
  2442. # [22:59] <timeless> ... to give us some advice if we were at cross perposes
  2443. # [23:00] <timeless> s/perposes/purposes
  2444. # [23:00] <timeless> ... i'm hoping darobin will give post first-traversal advice
  2445. # [23:00] <bryan> q-
  2446. # [23:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2447. # [23:00] <timeless> rubys: and i'm hoping it will be posted
  2448. # [23:00] <timeless> [ "Namespaces" ]
  2449. # [23:01] <timeless> chaals: there are interop issues
  2450. # [23:01] <timeless> ... but people won't cry here
  2451. # [23:01] <timeless> paulc: summary?
  2452. # [23:01] <timeless> darobin: some tests, a bunch of non tests
  2453. # [23:01] <timeless> paulc: URL part?
  2454. # [23:01] <timeless> darobin: "Dates and Times" and "URLs"
  2455. # [23:01] <timeless> [ "Semantics, strucutre, and APIs of HTML documents"
  2456. # [23:01] <timeless> s/s"/s" ]/
  2457. # [23:02] <timeless> darobin: Document object, probably want to test
  2458. # [23:02] <timeless> ... exec command will not be something interoperable
  2459. # [23:02] <timeless> darobin: title and cookie work
  2460. # [23:02] <timeless> ... last modified we probably don't have interop
  2461. # [23:02] <timeless> ... some things are more problematic
  2462. # [23:03] <timeless> s/exec command/execCommand/
  2463. # [23:03] <timeless> paulc: so, selective tests?
  2464. # [23:04] <timeless> darobin: there are a bunch of event handlers
  2465. # [23:04] <timeless> ... not sure about onwait/onstall
  2466. # [23:04] <timeless> rubys: another pass?
  2467. # [23:04] <timeless> darobin: offline
  2468. # [23:04] <timeless> paulc: detailed review
  2469. # [23:04] <timeless> darobin: probably have some tests
  2470. # [23:05] <timeless> [ "Security" ]
  2471. # [23:05] <timeless> darobin: we can skip
  2472. # [23:07] <timeless> "This box is non-normative. Implementation requirements are given below this box."
  2473. # [23:07] <timeless> JF: this is why you don't only use color to distinguish things
  2474. # [23:07] <timeless> darobin: 3.1 "Documents" is a test target
  2475. # [23:08] <timeless> s/strucutre/structure/
  2476. # [23:08] <timeless> [ "Eleements" ]
  2477. # [23:08] <timeless> s/Eleements/Elements/
  2478. # [23:08] <timeless> chaals: contentEditable
  2479. # [23:08] <timeless> darobin: draggable
  2480. # [23:08] <timeless> ... needs tests
  2481. # [23:09] <timeless> [ "Global attributes" ]
  2482. # [23:09] <timeless> darobin: "translate=" is when you have a name and you want to say don't tanslate
  2483. # [23:09] <timeless> ... you say no
  2484. # [23:09] <timeless> s/tanslate/translate/
  2485. # [23:10] <timeless> darobin: not sure what to test for translate
  2486. # [23:10] <timeless> krisk: could someone building a translator could use translate=
  2487. # [23:10] <timeless> tantek: does google translate support translate=no?
  2488. # [23:10] <timeless> chaals: some don't
  2489. # [23:10] <timeless> ... but some professional tools
  2490. # [23:11] <timeless> rubys: will be there two tools that do it interoperably
  2491. # [23:11] <timeless> ... needs publicly accessible
  2492. # [23:11] * Quits: jeff (jeff@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2493. # [23:12] <timeless> darobin: xmlbase
  2494. # [23:13] <timeless> darobin: do we need to test dir=?
  2495. # [23:13] <timeless> travis: those might be edge cases
  2496. # [23:13] <timeless> darobin: propose we not test class= and style=
  2497. # [23:13] <timeless> darobin: test dataset=
  2498. # [23:14] <timeless> s/dataset/data-*/
  2499. # [23:14] * Quits: LeifHalvardSilli (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2500. # [23:14] <timeless> darobin: that * means something than the other *
  2501. # [23:14] <timeless> [ "Element Definitions" ]
  2502. # [23:14] <timeless> darobin: not normative
  2503. # [23:14] <timeless> [ "Content models" ]
  2504. # [23:15] <timeless> [ "Requirements relating to bidrectional-algorithm formatting characters" ]
  2505. # [23:15] <timeless> krisk: should be tested, there's tests
  2506. # [23:15] <timeless> [ "WAI-ARIA" ]
  2507. # [23:15] <timeless> darobin: who cares?
  2508. # [23:16] <timeless> SteveF: there are MUST for those sections
  2509. # [23:16] <timeless> paulc: is this a reference, or usage?
  2510. # [23:16] <timeless> SteveF: it says UAs MUST implement roles and
  2511. # [23:16] <timeless> paulc: is some of this implemented today?
  2512. # [23:16] <timeless> SteveF: yes
  2513. # [23:16] <timeless> ... no official tests
  2514. # [23:17] <timeless> JF: they're going through it now
  2515. # [23:17] <timeless> paulc: is their mechanism correlated to their ...
  2516. # [23:17] <timeless> SteveF: yeah
  2517. # [23:17] <timeless> ... i pointed tobie to michael cooper
  2518. # [23:17] <timeless> paulc: i know you could create tests/harnesses
  2519. # [23:17] <timeless> ... for the semantics in this sectoin
  2520. # [23:18] <timeless> s/sectoin/section/
  2521. # [23:18] <timeless> ... do we believe a item is implemented
  2522. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> q+ to wonder what PF is testing. Are they testing whether browsers expose aria attributes in HTML to platform a11y APIs?
  2523. # [23:18] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  2524. # [23:18] <timeless> [ "Strong Native Semantics" ]
  2525. # [23:18] <timeless> krisk: i don't think we have ARIA tests in github
  2526. # [23:18] <timeless> darobin: do we need validator tests?
  2527. # [23:19] <timeless> MikeSmith: i have support, but no tests
  2528. # [23:19] <timeless> krisk: you have to use a screen reader
  2529. # [23:19] <timeless> rubys: is it broadly implementable enough to say it works
  2530. # [23:19] <timeless> MikeSmith: the whole thing
  2531. # [23:19] <timeless> darobin: needs tests
  2532. # [23:20] <timeless> [ "Interactions with Path and XSLT" ]
  2533. # [23:20] <timeless> q- MikeSmith
  2534. # [23:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2535. # [23:20] <timeless> darobin: not a high priority
  2536. # [23:20] <timeless> ... not all browsers implement document.evaluate()
  2537. # [23:21] <timeless> [ "Dynamic markup insertion" ]
  2538. # [23:21] <timeless> darobin: document.open, document.write
  2539. # [23:21] <timeless> ... we have a fair bit of tests
  2540. # [23:21] <timeless> ... "needs tests"
  2541. # [23:22] <timeless> [ "The elements of HTML" ]
  2542. # [23:23] <timeless> [ "The root element" ]
  2543. # [23:23] <timeless> rubys: those probably work
  2544. # [23:23] <timeless> [ "The base element" ]
  2545. # [23:23] <timeless> -- the base element needs tests --
  2546. # [23:23] <timeless> [ "The meta element" ]
  2547. # [23:23] <timeless> krisk: character encoding needs tests
  2548. # [23:24] <timeless> ( the group agrees )
  2549. # [23:24] <timeless> [ "Scripting" ]
  2550. # [23:24] <timeless> darobin: "oh, there's nothing wrong with that"
  2551. # [23:24] <timeless> ... we need tests
  2552. # [23:24] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  2553. # [23:24] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/611c964f3a03867f994dbbc861e6d8eec4cc1001
  2554. # [23:24] <gitbot> html/master 611c964 steve faulkner: tweaked switch script
  2555. # [23:24] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  2556. # [23:24] <timeless> ... defer, async
  2557. # [23:24] <timeless> krisk: there are tests for those
  2558. # [23:24] <timeless> darobin: what about <noscript>?
  2559. # [23:25] <timeless> Josh_Soref: NoScript and similar are used by "noisy" users who would thus test it
  2560. # [23:25] <timeless> [ "Sections" ]
  2561. # [23:25] <timeless> [ "The body element" ]
  2562. # [23:25] <timeless> darobin: probably basic tests for new elements
  2563. # [23:25] <timeless> rubys: minimal tests?
  2564. # [23:26] <timeless> darobin: <article>, <section>, <nav>, <aside>, <header>, <footer>
  2565. # [23:26] <timeless> ... test that it's not implementing "HTML unknown elements"
  2566. # [23:26] <timeless> krisk: and you can style it
  2567. # [23:26] <timeless> rubys: and you can put elements inside it?
  2568. # [23:27] <timeless> [ "The address element" ]
  2569. # [23:27] <timeless> darobin: <address> should be ok
  2570. # [23:27] <timeless> bryan: do we need to test new attributes?
  2571. # [23:27] <timeless> darobin: testing global elements tests this
  2572. # [23:29] <timeless> darobin: "Creating an outline"
  2573. # [23:29] <timeless> ... may be at risk
  2574. # [23:29] <timeless> paulc: Outline algorithm is a feature AT-RISK
  2575. # [23:29] <timeless> ... how do you put something as a feature at risk if you can't test it?
  2576. # [23:29] <tantek> q+
  2577. # [23:29] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  2578. # [23:29] <timeless> darobin: you're going to implement it in the validator, right?
  2579. # [23:29] <timeless> MikeSmith: it's in the validator
  2580. # [23:30] <timeless> ... the section describes how to build an outline
  2581. # [23:30] <timeless> ... but there's no exposure to dom/scripts
  2582. # [23:30] <timeless> ... there's no way from a web document to generate an outline
  2583. # [23:30] <timeless> adrianba: but two people can independently build tests
  2584. # [23:30] <timeless> MikeSmith: there's no defined conformance class required to implement
  2585. # [23:31] <timeless> rubys: don't need tests
  2586. # [23:31] <timeless> ack tantek
  2587. # [23:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2588. # [23:31] <timeless> tantek: non-normative,
  2589. # [23:31] * hober notes that we have two implementations: the validator, and anolis
  2590. # [23:31] <timeless> ... it's non-normative
  2591. # [23:31] <timeless> ... which means we don't need to test it
  2592. # [23:31] <timeless> ... but it doesn't mean we should ignore it
  2593. # [23:31] <timeless> ... we should still list it at risk
  2594. # [23:32] <timeless> MikeSmith: ok, i remember why we put it at risk, i put it there
  2595. # [23:32] <timeless> ... logic
  2596. # [23:32] <timeless> ... if we have no implementation expected to support this
  2597. # [23:32] * Joins: wonsuk_ (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
  2598. # [23:32] <timeless> ... we could drop it from the spec, because it doesn't need to be there
  2599. # [23:32] <tantek> q-
  2600. # [23:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2601. # [23:32] <timeless> [ cross talk definition on "normative" ]
  2602. # [23:33] <timeless> paulc: feature at-risk
  2603. # [23:33] <timeless> ... no tests for it
  2604. # [23:33] <timeless> ... no consensus on what it means
  2605. # [23:33] <timeless> ... then WG will have to decide whether to keep it
  2606. # [23:34] <timeless> ... i think i restated, MikeSmith 's rationale
  2607. # [23:34] <timeless> SteveF: every <heading> in a <section> is an implied section
  2608. # [23:35] <timeless> [ "Usage summary" ]
  2609. # [23:35] <timeless> darobin: non-normative
  2610. # [23:35] <timeless> [ "Grouping content" ]
  2611. # [23:35] <timeless> [ "The p element" ]
  2612. # [23:35] <timeless> chaals: i assert that works, sufficiently well
  2613. # [23:35] <timeless> darobin: all good to dd
  2614. # [23:35] <timeless> ... but want tests on <figure> and <figcaption>
  2615. # [23:36] <timeless> [ "Text-level semantics" ]
  2616. # [23:36] <timeless> darobin: The <a> element
  2617. # [23:36] <timeless> ... the <abbr> shouldn't that be acronym? :)
  2618. # [23:36] <timeless> darobin: <time> needs tests
  2619. # [23:36] <timeless> ... not sure about <samp> and <kbd>
  2620. # [23:37] <timeless> ... <mark>
  2621. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> when we get to <ins> and <del> I guess we get Daniel Glazman on the phone to ask his opinion
  2622. # [23:37] <timeless> ... <ruby> needs tests
  2623. # [23:37] <timeless> ... <rt>, <rp> need tests
  2624. # [23:37] <timeless> ... <bdi> and <bdo> need tests
  2625. # [23:37] <timeless> rubys: <wbr> is new in a spec
  2626. # [23:38] <timeless> ... needs tests
  2627. # [23:38] <timeless> [ "Edits" ]
  2628. # [23:38] <timeless> Josh_Soref: <del> needs tests
  2629. # [23:38] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  2630. # [23:38] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/46d77af9414a1cfd779e7c57dbf201b0068e4f39
  2631. # [23:38] <gitbot> html/master 46d77af stevefaulkner: Update header-w3c-html-core...
  2632. # [23:38] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  2633. # [23:39] <timeless> [ break ]
  2634. # [23:40] * Quits: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2635. # [23:41] * Quits: tinkster (~tai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2636. # [23:54] * Quits: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  2637. # [23:56] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  2638. # [23:56] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/d8c4e1bb994ef0205959094ad9d63fd71cf671a6
  2639. # [23:56] <gitbot> html/master d8c4e1b stevefaulkner: Update middle-author-mode-links...
  2640. # [23:56] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  2641. # [23:57] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  2642. # [23:57] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2643. # [23:58] * Quits: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  2644. # [23:59] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek_@public.cloak)

The end :)