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- # Session Start: Thu Apr 25 00:00:00 2013
- # Session Ident: #html-wg
- # [00:00] * Joins: bryan (~bryan@public.cloak)
- # [00:04] <timeless> [ "Embedded content" ]
- # [00:04] <timeless> darobin: i think <img> is roughly ok
- # [00:05] <timeless> ... i think <iframe> needs tests for new stuff
- # [00:05] <timeless> travis: seamless
- # [00:05] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
- # [00:05] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/5713d99aa94628fb9367f37fddc769b22640b75b
- # [00:05] <gitbot> html/master 5713d99 stevefaulkner: Update header-w3c-html-core...
- # [00:05] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
- # [00:05] <timeless> darobin: <embed> and <object> ... probably need tests
- # [00:05] <timeless> travis: interplay between those two
- # [00:05] <timeless> krisk: a lot of content needs those
- # [00:06] <timeless> rubys: you probably need tests for <param>
- # [00:06] <timeless> ... <video> and <audio> are new
- # [00:06] <timeless> darobin: and we have tests
- # [00:06] <timeless> rubys: <source> and <track>
- # [00:06] <timeless> ... needs tests
- # [00:06] <timeless> [ "Media elements" ]
- # [00:06] <timeless> rubys: needs tests
- # [00:06] <timeless> [ "Canvas elements" ]
- # [00:06] <timeless> paulc: isn't that mostly the Canvas spec?
- # [00:07] <timeless> darobin: <canvas> needs to test getImageData/getImageURL
- # [00:07] <timeless> darobin: <map>, <area>, <imgmap> ok
- # [00:07] <timeless> ... <mathml> do we need tests?
- # [00:07] <timeless> krisk: we have tests
- # [00:08] <timeless> darobin: <svg> we might need tests
- # [00:08] <timeless> ... but possibly covered by parsing
- # [00:08] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
- # [00:08] <timeless> [ "Dimension attributes" ]
- # [00:08] <timeless> darobin: think we're fine
- # [00:08] <timeless> [ "Tabular data" ]
- # [00:08] <timeless> darobin: don't know where we stand on this
- # [00:08] <timeless> ... used to be interop nightmare
- # [00:08] <timeless> rubys: thought to be ok
- # [00:08] <timeless> travis: html4 was underspecified
- # [00:09] <timeless> ... a lot of crazy stuff was dropped in 5
- # [00:09] <timeless> chaals: to a first approximation, tables work properly on the web
- # [00:09] <timeless> ... if you nest them properly
- # [00:09] <timeless> rubys: i've seen people use deeply nested tables
- # [00:09] <timeless> darobin: so, ok
- # [00:09] <timeless> [ "Forms" ]
- # [00:09] <timeless> rubys: intro, ok
- # [00:09] <timeless> ... categories?
- # [00:10] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
- # [00:10] <timeless> darobin: i don't think there's anything normative there
- # [00:10] <timeless> rubys: <form>
- # [00:10] <timeless> darobin: novalidate= isn't universally supported
- # [00:11] <timeless> darobin: <fieldset>
- # [00:11] <timeless> ... anything new?
- # [00:11] <timeless> rubys: i don't think so
- # [00:11] <timeless> darobin: i think the form= attribute needs tests
- # [00:11] <timeless> darobin: <legend>, hope it's ok
- # [00:12] <timeless> ... <label>, don't think there's anything new
- # [00:12] <timeless> ... <input>
- # [00:12] <timeless> paulc: is this with the at-risk?
- # [00:12] <timeless> rubys: <input> has email which is not at-risk
- # [00:13] <timeless> darobin: need to test new ones (url, email, address)
- # [00:13] <timeless> ... have some tests
- # [00:13] <timeless> rubys: <button> ?
- # [00:13] <timeless> darobin: probably ok
- # [00:13] <timeless> ... <select> as well
- # [00:13] <timeless> ... <datalist> is a target
- # [00:13] <timeless> ... <option>, <optlist> probably again
- # [00:14] <timeless> .. what did we do about <keygen>?
- # [00:14] <timeless> s/../.../
- # [00:14] <timeless> adrianba: spec says parsing is necessary, implementation of crypto piece is optional
- # [00:14] <timeless> ... we can test parsing
- # [00:14] <timeless> ... separately, whlie
- # [00:14] <timeless> s/whlie/while/
- # [00:14] <timeless> ... it isn't implemented and won't be implemented in IE
- # [00:14] <timeless> ... and was made optional
- # [00:15] <timeless> ... writing tests would be an option
- # [00:15] <timeless> ... seems to be good interop for browsers that do implement
- # [00:15] <timeless> darobin: agree
- # [00:15] * Joins: JonathanJ (~JonathanJ@public.cloak)
- # [00:15] <timeless> ... <output>, <meter>, <progress> -- need tests
- # [00:15] * Quits: smaug (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
- # [00:16] <timeless> ... "Association of controls and forms" -- already flagged for testing
- # [00:16] <timeless> ... "Attributes common to form controls"
- # [00:16] <timeless> ... _charset_ and isindex - i don't think high priority
- # [00:16] <timeless> ... "isindex" is a value of a name
- # [00:16] <timeless> ... it's very easy to shoot yourself in the foot by using it
- # [00:17] <timeless> ... if you map from a datamodel where something has an index named "isindex"
- # [00:17] <timeless> ... you'll be surprised by the output for the form
- # [00:17] <timeless> travis: minimal testing? no testing?
- # [00:17] <timeless> darobin: none, i think it's interop too
- # [00:17] <timeless> ... it wouldn't be there if it weren't for browsers
- # [00:18] <timeless> rubys: APIIs for the text field selections
- # [00:18] <timeless> s/APII/API/
- # [00:18] <timeless> darobin: flagged as a target
- # [00:19] <timeless> darobin: constraints -- needs testing
- # [00:19] <timeless> rubys: form submission
- # [00:19] <timeless> darobin: we know there are corner cases
- # [00:19] <timeless> ... the brunt of it works
- # [00:19] <timeless> ... no way we're going to solve all the corner cases, w/ encoding
- # [00:19] <timeless> ... it's known broken
- # [00:19] <timeless> ... and we're not defining it
- # [00:19] <timeless> ... we'll get around to defining it at a some point
- # [00:20] <timeless> ... we have sufficient interop
- # [00:20] <timeless> ... "Interactive elements"
- # [00:20] <timeless> ... - <details> and <summary> need testing
- # [00:20] <timeless> ... - <command> should die
- # [00:20] <timeless> paulc: how do you know it won't be implemented?
- # [00:20] <timeless> darobin: i spoke to people
- # [00:21] <timeless> adrianba: no, we said put it at risk
- # [00:21] <timeless> MikeSmith: it's also dropped from WHATWG
- # [00:21] <timeless> paulc: that's a useful datapoint
- # [00:21] <timeless> paulc: yesterday, we asked about republishing
- # [00:21] <timeless> ... we agreed, one possibility was if we had an increased number of things to take out
- # [00:21] <timeless> ... like <hgroup>
- # [00:22] <timeless> ... this (<command>, <menu>) is another one?
- # [00:22] <timeless> SteveF: there's a command= somewhere
- # [00:22] <timeless> ... there's a <menuitem> ?
- # [00:22] <timeless> paulc: you take <command> out of 5.0
- # [00:22] <timeless> chaals: these are "problems for the editors"
- # [00:23] <timeless> rubys: <dialog>
- # [00:23] <timeless> MikeSmith: this is a new <dialog> not related to the other old <dialog>
- # [00:23] <timeless> darobin: needs tests
- # [00:23] <timeless> SteveF: it's at-risk, isn't it?
- # [00:23] <timeless> paulc: it's at-risk
- # [00:23] <timeless> darobin: ok, good
- # [00:24] <timeless> paulc: please include nomenclature to bring the at-risk features into this table
- # [00:24] <timeless> ... publicly stating which items are at risk, for which we need tests, for which we know we don't have implementations
- # [00:24] <timeless> ... is a strong statement
- # [00:24] * Joins: jeff (jeff@public.cloak)
- # [00:25] <tantek> q+ to speak briefly about republishing CR
- # [00:25] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
- # [00:25] <timeless> darobin: i'll take an action to evaluate the impact
- # [00:25] <timeless> ack tantek
- # [00:25] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to speak briefly about republishing CR
- # [00:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
- # [00:26] <timeless> tantek: it would be good to see heartbeat updates of the CR
- # [00:26] <timeless> ... regardless of scope of changes
- # [00:26] <timeless> ... CR announces "you should be implementing this"
- # [00:26] <timeless> ... having that updated w/ minor updates, adds, drops, would be quite handy
- # [00:26] <timeless> paulc: useful to be discussed
- # [00:26] <timeless> ... getting heartbeats for 5.1 documents
- # [00:26] <timeless> ... get that done, get a few other things done
- # [00:27] <timeless> ... chairs will bring up subject
- # [00:27] <timeless> ... we've enumerated changes already made
- # [00:27] <timeless> ... we did not drill as to whether the room had the same sentiment as you
- # [00:27] <timeless> rubys: "Links" ?
- # [00:27] <timeless> darobin: most do nothing
- # [00:28] <timeless> rubys: stylesheet= probably does something
- # [00:28] <timeless> s/stylesheet=/type=stylesheet/
- # [00:28] <timeless> darobin: no conformance requirement on prefetch
- # [00:29] <timeless> darobin: we can't automate <link type=icon> so i don't like that
- # [00:29] <timeless> ... it's a hint, all in ui
- # [00:29] <timeless> ... no conformance requirement
- # [00:29] <timeless> ... i wouldn't test that
- # [00:29] <timeless> ... i'm pretty sure it works
- # [00:29] <timeless> darobin: "Common idioms without dedicated elements"
- # [00:29] <timeless> ... by definition, stuff you can't test
- # [00:29] <timeless> rubys: "Selectors"
- # [00:30] <timeless> darobin: matching html elements using selectors
- # [00:30] <timeless> krisk: isn't this covered by CSS WG?
- # [00:30] <timeless> [ no ]
- # [00:30] <timeless> darobin: probably need to test this
- # [00:30] <timeless> ... :enabled, :disabled, :inrange... need tests
- # [00:30] <timeless> tantek: case sensitivity
- # [00:31] <timeless> ... and id's in html5 are more liberal, so worth testing
- # [00:31] <timeless> rubys: "Loading webpages"
- # [00:31] <timeless> ... "Browsing contexts"
- # [00:32] <timeless> darobin: is it testable?
- # [00:32] <timeless> krisk: some things that can't be automated
- # [00:32] <timeless> darobin: need tests
- # [00:32] <timeless> darobin: Window object
- # [00:32] <timeless> ... - needs tests
- # [00:32] <krisk> krisk: ...but still need tests
- # [00:32] <timeless> rubys: Origin?
- # [00:32] <timeless> darobin: document.domain could use tests
- # [00:32] <timeless> rubys: Sandboxing
- # [00:33] <timeless> krisk: needs, but there are tests
- # [00:33] <timeless> rubys: session history navigation
- # [00:33] <timeless> ... - needs tests
- # [00:33] <timeless> darobin: yes, but hard to write
- # [00:33] <timeless> rubys: Browsing the web?
- # [00:33] * hober darobin: my candidate: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cisindex%3E
- # [00:34] <timeless> darobin: "multiplart/x-mixed-replace" lovely
- # [00:34] <timeless> ... the browsing the web is probably buggy and needs tests
- # [00:34] <timeless> darobin: AppCache (offline web apps) -- needs tets
- # [00:34] <timeless> ... painful to test
- # [00:34] <timeless> rubys: "Web application APIs"
- # [00:34] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
- # [00:34] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/e5c4537602fa3a9877ca2bad7d7a9f4a4615d647
- # [00:34] <gitbot> html/master e5c4537 stevefaulkner: Update middle-w3c-styles...
- # [00:34] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
- # [00:34] <timeless> travis: a lot of this just works
- # [00:35] <timeless> darobin: things that don't work aren't necessarily testable
- # [00:35] <timeless> travis: Base64 utility methods are new
- # [00:35] <timeless> darobin: new in standard
- # [00:35] <timeless> rubys: Timers - probably work
- # [00:35] <timeless> ... user prompts - probably work
- # [00:35] <timeless> ... Navigator object -
- # [00:35] <timeless> hober: i'll write navigator.product
- # [00:36] <timeless> ... tests
- # [00:36] <timeless> [ it always returns "Gecko" ]
- # [00:36] <timeless> darobin: we need tests for custom scheme and content handlers
- # [00:36] <timeless> chaals: dialogs implemented using separate documents - needs tests
- # [00:37] <timeless> darobin: we need to test manually releasing the storage mutex
- # [00:37] <timeless> ... the external interface, that's lovely
- # [00:38] <timeless> Josh_Soref: probably works well enough, oddly enough
- # [00:38] <timeless> darobin: "User Interaction"
- # [00:38] <timeless> ... "hidden attribute" is new, needs testing
- # [00:38] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
- # [00:38] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/e9f83561ade9ed89ef7e13cd36658fdf86ffcc25
- # [00:38] <gitbot> html/master e9f8356 stevefaulkner: Update header-w3c-html-core...
- # [00:38] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
- # [00:39] <timeless> darobin: Inert subtrees is only for <dialog> and <command>
- # [00:39] <timeless> ... and if implementers haven't seen it, i wouldn't be shocked
- # [00:39] <timeless> SteveF: about selectors
- # [00:40] <timeless> darobin: we define some psuedo-selectors
- # [00:40] <timeless> SteveF: where do you use them?
- # [00:40] <timeless> darobin: it's complicated, we define them
- # [00:41] <timeless> ... i agree logically, it could be elsewhere
- # [00:41] <timeless> ... we're sticking to document units
- # [00:41] <timeless> ... it makes our lives easier
- # [00:41] <timeless> SteveF: how many tests rely on tests using optional features
- # [00:41] <timeless> darobin: 99% of our tests rely on JS
- # [00:41] <timeless> ... so w/o the optional JS
- # [00:41] <timeless> ... you won't pass
- # [00:41] <timeless> travis: HTML4 suite hardly uses JS
- # [00:42] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
- # [00:42] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
- # [00:42] <timeless> darobin: Activation, we've all used .click
- # [00:42] <timeless> ... focus, tabIndex
- # [00:42] <timeless> ... -- either it's been broken forever
- # [00:42] <timeless> ... i think we should test it
- # [00:42] <timeless> ... it'd be nice if it finally worked
- # [00:42] <timeless> tantek: or even if the tests were used to fix the tests
- # [00:42] <timeless> chaals: accesskey needs tests
- # [00:42] <tantek> to fix the spec
- # [00:43] <timeless> rubys: Editing/ContentEditable
- # [00:43] <timeless> darobin: Editing is another document
- # [00:43] <timeless> ... it needs only a few tests initially
- # [00:43] <timeless> darobin: we'll probably bring editing APIs in for 5.1
- # [00:43] <timeless> rubys: drag and drop needs tests?
- # [00:43] <timeless> darobin: yes.
- # [00:43] <timeless> rubys: HTML Syntax?
- # [00:44] <timeless> darobin: needs tests, have tests
- # [00:44] <timeless> rubys: XHTML syntax
- # [00:44] <timeless> darobin: sad thing is, it probably needs tests
- # [00:45] <timeless> mjs: parsing xhtml documents probably works interoperably
- # [00:45] <timeless> ... serializing xhtml fragments/parsing xhtml fragments
- # [00:46] <timeless> ... probably need tests
- # [00:46] <timeless> rubys: "Rendering"
- # [00:46] <timeless> darobin: does it have hard requirements?
- # [00:46] <timeless> mjs: it's unusual
- # [00:47] <timeless> ... everything is a suggestion, not a requirement
- # [00:47] <timeless> ... but there's a conformance class
- # [00:47] <timeless> ... that requires implement everything in the section
- # [00:47] <timeless> ... depending on the conformance class we pick as a target
- # [00:47] <timeless> mjs: for a desktop browser, we could probably make it
- # [00:47] <timeless> ... but for mobile browsers, probably not
- # [00:48] <timeless> mjs: <details> / <meter> / <progress> - probably needs tests
- # [00:49] <timeless> darobin: elements that need tests, also need to test rendering
- # [00:49] <timeless> rubys: "bindings", if the element needs testing, the rendering needs testing
- # [00:50] <timeless> ... frames and framesets, probably works?
- # [00:50] <timeless> ... interactive media
- # [00:50] <timeless> darobin: probably works
- # [00:50] <timeless> rubys: print media
- # [00:50] <timeless> darobin: probably works
- # [00:50] <timeless> rubys: "unstyled xml" -- we won't hold up html5 for it
- # [00:51] <timeless> rubys: "Obsolete features"
- # [00:51] <timeless> darobin: do we need to test obsolete features?
- # [00:51] <timeless> krisk: there are interop problems for the webidl bindings
- # [00:51] <timeless> rubys: say it isn't a priority
- # [00:51] <timeless> darobin: we don't need to test "IANA"
- # [00:52] <timeless> ... we could test their registration system
- # [00:52] <timeless> tantek: we probably already have
- # [00:52] <timeless> rubys: Index
- # [00:52] <timeless> ... References
- # [00:52] <timeless> ... Acknowledgements
- # [00:52] <timeless> paulc: took 3 hours, minus coffee
- # [00:52] <timeless> darobin: it's not that big a spec
- # [00:53] <timeless> [ laughter ]
- # [00:53] <tantek> nicely done team
- # [00:53] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
- # [00:53] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/505b4c046645c092ecae56da4d772ebb4ad2ab9a
- # [00:53] <gitbot> html/master 505b4c0 stevefaulkner: Update header-w3c-html-core...
- # [00:53] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
- # [00:53] <timeless> paulc: in CR discussions
- # [00:53] <timeless> ... we said we had two long poles
- # [00:53] <timeless> ... testing
- # [00:53] <timeless> ... getting implementations
- # [00:53] <timeless> ... we have a lot of microdata here
- # [00:54] <timeless> ... where we can indicate what's at risk
- # [00:54] <timeless> ... but it'd be nice to say which items need implementations
- # [00:54] <timeless> ... for things where we have implementations
- # [00:54] <timeless> ... you'd think you'd want to write tests
- # [00:54] <timeless> ... before writing tests where there are no implementations
- # [00:54] <timeless> ... wonder if that's a criteria for considering the order of generating tests
- # [00:55] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
- # [00:55] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/7005b905b033debccf9eb8ed821cb11cc94045fc
- # [00:55] <gitbot> html/master 7005b90 stevefaulkner: Update middle-w3c-styles...
- # [00:55] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
- # [00:55] <timeless> darobin: in a lot of cases, we do have tests
- # [00:55] <timeless> paulc: chaals, a number of items were A11Y related
- # [00:55] <timeless> ... should we ask the A11Y TF to look at darobin 's work
- # [00:55] <timeless> ... to double check his item
- # [00:55] <timeless> s/item/items/
- # [00:56] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
- # [00:56] <gitbot> [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/18d188d7795ad256f054d13961e25fb1e56b95be
- # [00:56] <gitbot> html/master 18d188d stevefaulkner: Update header-w3c-html-core...
- # [00:56] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
- # [00:56] <timeless> ... a number of A11Y people are trying to get ARIA out of CR today
- # [00:56] <timeless> ... to have them look at the list and see if we missed anything
- # [00:56] <timeless> paulc: darobin, estimate for a cleaned up docment
- # [00:56] <timeless> s/docment/document/
- # [00:56] <timeless> darobin: try to have it by monday
- # [00:57] <timeless> ... i'm vacationing next week
- # [00:57] * Quits: Bin_Hu (~Bin_Hu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
- # [00:57] <timeless> paulc: figure out how to get WG (not all here)
- # [00:57] <timeless> ... to give feedback
- # [00:57] <timeless> ... on whether we can get consensus
- # [00:58] <timeless> rubys: we post it, and give people weeks, if not a month
- # [00:58] <timeless> paulc: darobin, when you post it
- # [00:58] <timeless> ... you might encourage people
- # [00:58] <timeless> ... if they want to push back
- # [00:58] <timeless> ... for them to rename the thread
- # [00:58] <timeless> ... otherwise you'll have an uberthread
- # [00:58] <timeless> darobin: this is testing, no one will respond
- # [00:59] <timeless> paulc: i tried to confirm we'd cleared the items of the agenda
- # [00:59] <timeless> ... is there AOB?
- # [00:59] * Quits: SteveF (~SteveF@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
- # [00:59] <timeless> i/tried/Topic: AOB
- # [00:59] <timeless> ... i think, we're adjourned
- # [01:00] <timeless> ... we should thank Josh_Soref, the scribe
- # [01:00] <timeless> [ Applause ]
- # [01:00] <krisk> darboin - bin has started a table here http://www.w3.org/wiki/Testing/Test_Management_TF/HTML5_Test_Coverage_Analysis
- # [01:00] <krisk> ...that in theory could be used
- # [01:00] <timeless> s/darboin/darobin/
- # [01:00] <timeless> paulc: thanks everyone
- # [01:00] <timeless> ... i believe we're adjourned
- # [01:00] <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
- # [01:00] <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
- # [01:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
- # [01:01] * timeless paulc we should thank host
- # [01:01] <timeless> jeff: Let's thank Daniel / PayPal for hosting
- # [01:01] <timeless> [ Applause ]
- # [01:01] * Quits: abraud (~abraud@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
- # [01:01] <timeless> s/[ Adjourned ]//
- # [01:01] <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
- # [01:01] <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
- # [01:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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- # [01:18] <Zakim> -Paypal
- # [01:18] <Zakim> HTML_CG(F2F)12:00PM has ended
- # [01:18] <Zakim> Attendees were Paypal
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- # [13:06] <esr> Where can I find an archive of the WG disussions on EME?
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- # [15:40] <MikeSmith> hmm that really was ERic
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- # [23:55] * Topic is 'http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda#Agenda_April_24'
- # [23:55] * Set by timeless on Wed Apr 24 18:07:46
- # Session Close: Fri Apr 26 00:00:00 2013
The end :)