/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2013-09-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 10 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  43. # [10:44] <darobin> quick a11y question: if I have an arbitrary element and I wish it to have an equivalent of img's alt, is using aria-label appropriate?
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  45. # [10:48] <chaals> can be
  46. # [10:49] <chaals> (it won't really give you an equivalent, since it is generally only provided to AT)
  47. # [10:49] <chaals> title will do so for normal browsers (except for keyboard users or people who are relying on eg screenreaders)
  48. # [10:50] <chaals> SteveF probably has better test data, but I suspect in most cases you want title and aria-label redundantly for real-world value.
  49. # [10:50] <chaals> :(
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  51. # [10:52] <SteveF> darobin: re aria-label what are you trying to do?
  52. # [10:54] <darobin> SteveF: http://berjon.com/presentations/20130910-ricg-switch/#/7
  53. # [10:54] <darobin> chaals: ^^
  54. # [10:54] <SteveF> darobin: yeah already found it
  55. # [10:56] <SteveF> darobin: in theory yes, putting role="img" would be appropriate otherwise the switch element would not appear in the acc tree (as its not a UI element
  56. # [10:56] <SteveF> do you have a demo?
  57. # [10:56] <darobin> SteveF: it don't work yet man
  58. # [10:56] <darobin> I just came up with the idea
  59. # [10:57] <darobin> SteveF: mmmmmm
  60. # [10:57] <darobin> this is an element from SVG, maybe it's actually handled properly in the acc tree?
  61. # [10:57] * darobin reckons a girl can dream
  62. # [10:58] <SteveF> OK, the proper handling for a non UI element is no mapping
  63. # [10:58] <chaals> hmm. Actually I think you shold ust put the *** alt into each img element.
  64. # [10:58] <darobin> it's more like a transparent element
  65. # [10:58] <darobin> chaals: no, really, no
  66. # [10:58] <darobin> or at least, if there's any way of avoiding that, I really want to avoid it
  67. # [10:59] <SteveF> so as I said add the role=img to expose as image to acc layer, probably need role=presentation on the img elements inside
  68. # [10:59] <chaals> I undesrtand why you want to avoid it.
  69. # [10:59] <darobin> the images inside may or may not be presentational
  70. # [11:00] <SteveF> darobin: yes but the swithc represnets the img(s)
  71. # [11:00] <chaals> but short of hacking up a good way to assign alt out of aria-label (easy with a shim, of course), it looks like you'll have to pick some ugly mess or other.
  72. # [11:00] <darobin> mmmmmm
  73. # [11:00] <darobin> well, a shim will be needed anyway
  74. # [11:00] <darobin> maybe that can handle assigning the alts as well
  75. # [11:00] <SteveF> chaals in acc tree alt and aria-label = same thing = accessible name
  76. # [11:01] <darobin> (and the roles and all)
  77. # [11:01] <darobin> so it becomes an issue of specifying it right on the switch so it works well when specified
  78. # [11:01] <darobin> s/specified/implemented/
  79. # [11:01] <chaals> steveF sure. But outside acc tree, in browsers for the majority, that doesn't happen today ;(
  80. # [11:02] <darobin> so if we were relying on people implementing this, assuming it has a well-defined role and all, what would be the best attribute choice? alt?
  81. # [11:02] <darobin> <switch alt='...'> ?
  82. # [11:02] <chaals> 20/80 splits on solutions are as bad as not getting working accessibility, right?
  83. # [11:02] <SteveF> right, so alt not exposed when images turned off for example, gotya
  84. # [11:02] <darobin> taking into account the fact that it may switch between things that aren't images, e.g. video, canvas...
  85. # [11:02] <chaals> Hmmm. If people have to implement, it doesn't matter what you call it so much.
  86. # [11:03] <chaals> (canvas sort of is images. And sort of is text editors...)
  87. # [11:03] <darobin> fairy nuff
  88. # [11:03] <chaals> alt is prolly as good as anything, since people are familiar with it...
  89. # [11:04] <darobin> yeah, makes sense
  90. # [11:04] <darobin> alt it is
  91. # [11:04] <darobin> thanks for the help guys!
  92. # [11:04] <SteveF> darobin: why not <switch aria-label="Accessible text">
  93. # [11:04] <SteveF> <img media="(min-width: 45em)" src="large.jpg">
  94. # [11:04] <SteveF> <img media="(min-width: 18em)" src="med.jpg">
  95. # [11:04] <SteveF> <img src="small.jpg">
  96. # [11:04] <SteveF> <title>alt text</title>
  97. # [11:04] <SteveF> </switch>
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  99. # [11:05] <darobin> SteveF: that puts the text in twice
  100. # [11:05] <SteveF> sorry forget about the aria-label - cut and paste error
  101. # [11:06] <darobin> I thought of that, but it has various sorts of wrong
  102. # [11:06] <darobin> first, it's not the existing SVG semantics (as I understand them)
  103. # [11:06] <darobin> (they're not exactly super clear...)
  104. # [11:06] <darobin> second, it's not really well known by users
  105. # [11:07] <darobin> SteveF: in my SVG example, you'll note I put the <title> outside the <switch>, so that it applies to its container
  106. # [11:07] <darobin> I'm not sure <title> applies to <switch>, not sure what it would mean
  107. # [11:10] <SteveF> darobin: best person to talk to on that is your fellow w3c operative doug s
  108. # [11:10] <darobin> yes yes, I know doug :)
  109. # [11:11] <darobin> however, I also know SVG, and I know how bad some parts of that spec are — a fair bit of it my fault
  110. # [11:11] <SteveF> darobin: really i mentioned you and he claimed to know nothing of you...
  111. # [11:12] <darobin> SteveF: well he would, wouldn't he
  112. # [11:12] <darobin> I mean... there are pictures
  113. # [11:13] <SteveF> :-)
  114. # [11:13] <darobin> SteveF: Doug doesn't know me as "Robin", he knows me as "The Boarlicker"
  115. # [11:14] <SteveF> LOL ugh conjures up horrible images
  116. # [11:14] <SteveF> twitter people seem to like useless stats such as '31% of top 100,000 web sites use <!DOCTYPE html> up from 17% in April 2012'
  117. # [11:16] <darobin> SteveF: you have no idea, even chaals is scared of those memories
  118. # [11:16] <darobin> SteveF: http://bash.org/?2999
  119. # [11:18] <chaals> Boarlicker: as far as I can tell, switch > title means "a title for whatever is selected out of this switch". So it would be reasonable, but I agree that people don't know it.
  120. # [11:19] <chaals> The benefit is having an element - attributes !@#$%^&*ck as alternatives to real elements...
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  123. # [11:22] <SteveF> chaals: agreed
  124. # [11:24] <darobin> yeah, elements are best indeed
  125. # [11:24] <chaals> (darobin, can you dcc like it's 1999?)
  126. # [11:24] <darobin> chaals: lol, it took me a minute to undersatnd what it was
  127. # [11:25] <darobin> but accepting it does not seem to do anything
  128. # [11:25] <chaals> I canceled one and started a second one...
  129. # [11:25] <chaals> but not all clients seem to handle it nicely
  130. # [11:26] <darobin> I think mostly there are network problems with it
  131. # [11:26] <darobin> nah, it won't start
  132. # [11:27] <chaals> yeah, I killed them...
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  139. # [12:26] <SteveF> darobin: found working example of switch and tried out use of <desc> and <title> + aria = worked (exposed name/role correctly) https://gist.github.com/stevefaulkner/6507474 even works with AT, somewhat funky though
  140. # [12:27] <SteveF> desc worked better
  141. # [12:27] <SteveF> note need to apply role on svg not switch
  142. # [12:30] <SteveF> also note svg has a default role=diagram (system level acc role not ARIA)
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  149. # [14:08] <darobin> SteveF: thanks, that's useful
  150. # [14:08] <darobin> it's certainly something we can apply, if anything comes of this proposal
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The end :)