/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2013-09-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 11 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  8. # [01:22] <gitbot> [validator] sideshowbarker pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/validator/validator/commit/c2c0526cb02c605f2a543e1078ae334c717d5ea7
  9. # [01:22] <gitbot> validator/master c2c0526 Michael[tm] Smith: Send charset=utf-8 w/ JSON response. W3C Bug 23196.
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  15. # [02:02] <gitbot> [syntax] sideshowbarker pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/validator/syntax/compare/838ee33301a2...939e54d42cdb
  16. # [02:02] <gitbot> syntax/master c1398cd Michael[tm] Smith: Tweaked error-message text to make more sense.
  17. # [02:02] <gitbot> syntax/master 939e54d Michael[tm] Smith: Allow rel=category. W3C Bug 23183.
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  57. # [13:18] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/1beccd20474fdc96dad84a1a88cda8c77bab944a
  58. # [13:18] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master 1beccd2 steve faulkner: relaxed cite element def to allow URLs...
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  61. # [13:20] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] none pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/fb3bdcf2fc39...1beccd20474f
  62. # [13:20] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master d1c133e steve faulkner: tweaked last commit
  63. # [13:20] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master bb9c587 steve faulkner: tweaked blockquote def
  64. # [13:20] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master 1beccd2 steve faulkner: relaxed cite element def to allow URLs...
  65. # [13:20] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  66. # [13:21] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] none pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/fb3bdcf2fc39...1beccd20474f
  67. # [13:21] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master d1c133e steve faulkner: tweaked last commit
  68. # [13:21] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master bb9c587 steve faulkner: tweaked blockquote def
  69. # [13:21] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master 1beccd2 steve faulkner: relaxed cite element def to allow URLs...
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  71. # [13:22] <gitbot> [html] none pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/fb3bdcf2fc39...1beccd20474f
  72. # [13:22] <gitbot> html/master d1c133e steve faulkner: tweaked last commit
  73. # [13:22] <gitbot> html/master bb9c587 steve faulkner: tweaked blockquote def
  74. # [13:22] <gitbot> html/master 1beccd2 steve faulkner: relaxed cite element def to allow URLs...
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  77. # [13:35] <SteveF_> tantek: feedback on <cite> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element would be appreciated
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  83. # [13:37] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] none pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/fb3bdcf2fc39...1beccd20474f
  84. # [13:37] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master d1c133e steve faulkner: tweaked last commit
  85. # [13:37] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master bb9c587 steve faulkner: tweaked blockquote def
  86. # [13:37] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master 1beccd2 steve faulkner: relaxed cite element def to allow URLs...
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  91. # [14:15] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/dc88f04742cf1354b2e368315f244e5b94ff437b
  92. # [14:15] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master dc88f04 steve faulkner: added cite example with URL...
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  111. # [15:51] <tantek> hey SteveF
  112. # [15:51] <tantek> oh he's gone already
  113. # [15:52] <davidb> he's usually around
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  118. # [16:25] <SteveF> tantek: here now
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  123. # [17:26] <SteveF> tantek: ping
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  126. # [17:42] <tantek> oh hey SteveF
  127. # [17:42] <tantek> sorry - been here in CSSWG meeting
  128. # [17:42] <SteveF> tantek: np just wanted to get your thoughts on cite chnages
  129. # [17:43] <tantek> so my work with <cite> and citations in general led me to a bunch more research and documentation and h-cite
  130. # [17:43] <SteveF> tantek: right, there is a lot to consider
  131. # [17:44] <tantek> I mean that's what I came up with when I went through all the existing uses and use-cases.
  132. # [17:44] <tantek> which then led me back around to what should the simple <cite> element be used for
  133. # [17:44] <tantek> my opinion has shifted a bit over time
  134. # [17:44] <SteveF> tantek: sure
  135. # [17:45] <tantek> while I'm less of a personal advocate/user of using <cite> for names of speakers, it still seems like a valid use, and the documented examples in the wild provide a good case: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Cite_element#Examples_in_the_Wild
  136. # [17:45] <tantek> some of those uses seem "forced"
  137. # [17:45] <tantek> whereas some feel reasonable
  138. # [17:46] <SteveF> tantek: yes, I used that info along with data from recent greps of top 100,000 sites
  139. # [17:47] <SteveF> tankek: also looked at how it is sued in search result pages on google and bing
  140. # [17:50] <SteveF> tantek: if you could take a look at the proposed definition and provide feedback http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element
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  142. # [17:50] <SteveF> tantek: which are forced and which are reasonable?
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  145. # [17:53] <tantek> authors of comments in blog posts shouldn't be <cite>
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  147. # [17:54] <tantek> SteveF - have you looked at the <blockquote> and <cite> markup that Twitter itself provides when you copy the markup to "embed" a tweet?
  148. # [17:54] <tantek> e.g. go to any tweet permalink, click the (…) More button, and choose Embed
  149. # [17:54] <tantek> then copy paste that markup and look at it
  150. # [17:54] <tantek> it's an interesting example (not passing judgment either way)
  151. # [17:55] <SteveF> tantek: ok will do
  152. # [17:55] <tantek> It might be better than the example with karlpro in the spec text
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  154. # [17:55] <SteveF> tantek: "authors of comments in blog posts shouldn't be <cite>" thats a common use in the wild
  155. # [17:56] <tantek> I know - it's because of wordpress templates
  156. # [17:56] <tantek> and I think some bad decisions some of us (myself likely included) made and recommended
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  158. # [17:56] <tantek> I think we could point it out as an obsolete use but not make it non-conforming
  159. # [17:56] <tantek> just not recommend it
  160. # [17:57] <tantek> so here's the thing:
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  162. # [17:57] <tantek> when you are citing a speaker and quoting them, that is a proper *citation* since it's not first party content, you're publishing content *from* someone else, therefore you are citing them
  163. # [17:58] <tantek> However, when someone writes a blog post comment, they themselves are writing/publishing it - it is primary content - it is not a *reference* nor a *citation* to primary content. Thus it is incorrect (or at best badly semantically diluting) to use <cite> for the authors of blog post comments
  164. # [17:58] <tantek> make sense?
  165. # [17:58] <tantek> I should probably blog that
  166. # [17:59] <SteveF> tantek: think so need to process
  167. # [18:00] <tantek> ok no problem
  168. # [18:00] <tantek> yes this area / set of problems has been on my mind for a long time, and I've spent a lot of time processing on it ;)
  169. # [18:01] <tantek> even posted a bit about it https://www.google.com/search?as_sitesearch=tantek.com&tbs=sbd%3A1%2Ccdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1970&q=cite+OR+citation
  170. # [18:01] <SteveF> tantek: ok so twitter include author name inside blockquote
  171. # [18:01] <tantek> yes
  172. # [18:01] <tantek> so there it makes sense because it is an *embedding*
  173. # [18:01] <tantek> because someone *else* is citing the Twitter user and what they are saying
  174. # [18:02] <darobin> I guess though that if you write a comment reply citing the text you're replying to it would then become a proper use
  175. # [18:02] <tantek> darobin precisely
  176. # [18:02] <tantek> citing text you're replying to is a good use
  177. # [18:03] <SteveF> this is now allowed in updated blockquote but must be inside <cite> or <footer>
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  179. # [18:03] <tantek> one use that's not in your examples SteveF but I think we should consider is <cite> around an entire structured citation
  180. # [18:03] <tantek> including the author, name of work, date of publication etc.
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  182. # [18:04] <tantek> e.g. scroll to the bottom of http://tantek.com/2013/231/b1/questions-twitter-related-headlines-feature
  183. # [18:04] <tantek> and check out the "HTML"
  184. # [18:04] <tantek> input box
  185. # [18:04] <tantek> would appreciate your opinion of that use, e.g.
  186. # [18:05] <tantek> <cite class="h-cite"><a class="u-url p-name" href="http://tantek.com/2013/231/b1/questions-twitter-related-headlines-feature">Questions About @Twitter's Related Headlines Feature</a> (<abbr class="p-author h-card" title="Tantek Çelik">Çelik</abbr> <time class="dt-published">2013-08-19</time>)</cite>
  187. # [18:05] <SteveF> tantek: I had that but got stiff resistance on list to it, so pulled it back
  188. # [18:05] <SteveF> it is not disallowed
  189. # [18:05] <tantek> as I created that for easy copy/paste of a complete hyperlink citation
  190. # [18:05] <tantek> of a blog post
  191. # [18:05] <tantek> ok
  192. # [18:05] <tantek> good to know
  193. # [18:05] <SteveF> i saw that in h-cite
  194. # [18:05] <tantek> It's a bit experimental for sure
  195. # [18:05] <tantek> may be worthy of a different element
  196. # [18:05] <tantek> wanted to see what people thought about it
  197. # [18:07] <SteveF> a lot of what I have been doing with blockquote is to allow uses cases as per http://oli.jp/example/blockquote-metadata/
  198. # [18:08] <SteveF> and take into account how authors include citation info in blockquote in the wild, rather than forbidding trying to allow it structurally but distinguish it semantically
  199. # [18:09] <SteveF> tantek: anyway gotta give the kids a bath will think about what you have said, thanks!
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The end :)