/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2013-11-14 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Nov 14 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 2 new commits to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/5e80777aaa47...3927ececc1ac
# [00:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/feature/whatwg 75b7b5f ianh: [giow] (3) Adjust the rules on rendering images without 'alt' attributes....
# [00:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/feature/whatwg 3927ece ianh: [giow] (3) OnBeforeUnloadEventHandler is supposed to allow null return values (and some markup error fixes, oops)...
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# [01:43] <paulc> trackbot, start meeting
# [01:43] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
# [01:43] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [01:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
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# [01:43] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
# [01:43] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
# [01:43] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [01:43] <trackbot> Date: 14 November 2013
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# [01:45] <paulc> zakim, what is the code?
# [01:45] <Zakim> sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is
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# [01:54] <paulc> We are trying to get the conference setup with a polycom. Please be patient.
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# [01:57] <acolwell> paulc: I'm assuming this channel be the one used for all html-wg proceedings? The wiki states #html-media
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# [02:00] <paulc> I will fix the wiki,
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# [02:02] <paulc> The teleconference code with be HTML (4865) once we are setup.
# [02:03] <glenn__> zakim, list conferences
# [02:03] <Zakim> I see Team_(crypto)00:35Z, UW_MdCap()7:00PM, WAI_Indie()7:00PM, W3C_AC(*Shenzhen)7:00PM active
# [02:03] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time is Team_(eo)00:07Z
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# [02:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Shenzhen
# [02:04] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I don't know what conference this is
# [02:04] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
# [02:04] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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# [02:04] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [02:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [02:04] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
# [02:04] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
# [02:04] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [02:04] <trackbot> Date: 14 November 2013
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# [02:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, room for 10?
# [02:04] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; conference Team_(html-wg)01:04Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 0204Z
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# [02:06] <glenn__> zakim, this is 26631
# [02:06] <Zakim> glenn__, I see Team_(html-wg)01:04Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 26631".
# [02:06] <glenn__> zakim, this will be 26631
# [02:06] <Zakim> ok, glenn__; I see Team_(html-wg)01:04Z scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
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# [02:06] <glenn__> zakim, please call shenzhen
# [02:06] <Zakim> ok, glenn__; the call is being made
# [02:06] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)01:04Z has now started
# [02:06] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
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# [02:06] <glenn__> mikesmith: i took care of it
# [02:07] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
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# [02:11] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda
# [02:11] <Eliot> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda
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# [02:11] <Eliot> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda
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# [02:12] <acolwell> paulc: I'm getting "The conference is restricted at this time" when I try to join the call.
# [02:12] <ddorwin> acolwell: discussing it now
# [02:12] <acolwell> ddorwin: ok.
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# [02:13] <ddorwin> …MikeSmith is looking into it I believe.
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# [02:13] <ddorwin> Starting to discuss agenda.
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# [02:18] <MikeSmith> acolwell, I can skype you in from my laptop for now if you want
# [02:18] <MikeSmith> honestly the sound quality from the polycoms in these big rooms is close to useless anyway
# [02:20] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [02:20] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen
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# [02:21] <Zakim> +Amy
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# [02:23] <ddavis> acolwell: Someone else was able to dial in. Please could you try again? The code is 26631 (CONF1)
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# [02:24] <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
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# [02:24] * adrianba hi aaron!
# [02:24] <acolwell> adrianba: hi
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# [02:35] <joesteele_> Zakim, aaaa is me
# [02:35] <Zakim> +joesteele_; got it
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# [02:39] <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [02:39] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen, Aaron_Colwell, joesteele_
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# [02:41] <paulc> All MSE LC bugs: http://tinyurl.com/lfq3scr
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# [02:42] <cyns> scribe: cyns
# [02:42] <cyns> TOPIC: MSE last call bug discussion and moving to CR
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# [02:43] <cyns> PC: 23663 resolved fixed
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# [02:43] <ddorwin> acolwell: you're breaking up. You may want to type a summary
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# [02:43] <acolwell> made proposed text changes
# [02:43] <ddorwin> acolwell: We can't really hear you
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# [02:44] <paulc> actual change: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23663#c2
# [02:44] <acolwell> provided links to discussion about primer and preference for algorithmic text instead of duplicate informative text
# [02:45] <adrianba> q+
# [02:45] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [02:45] <cyns> PC: updated 2.4.3 with changes proposed in comment 1
# [02:46] <cyns> ack adrianba
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# [02:47] <cyns> AB: we talked about this on the last conferece call and the conclusion was that in general this was a duplicate request of the ones for an MSE primer. The spec is currently focused on what is needed to implement MSE, and we've asked for volunteers for an authoring guide
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# [02:47] <cyns> AB: this bug is for more details on how to use API, we still have that request pending. Aaron made a small change to clarify
# [02:47] <cyril> q+
# [02:47] * Zakim sees cyril on the speaker queue
# [02:48] <cyns> PC: Aaron has implemented the chagne that was previously agreed upon. response to comment is that we need a volunteer
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# [02:48] <cyns> CC: I am considering volunteering.
# [02:49] <cyns> CC: we also talked about where it would be. is webplatforms.org the right place?
# [02:49] <cyril> http://www.webplatform.org/
# [02:49] <cyns> PC: webplatform.org is a project in w3 to document as much of web platform as possible. anyone can supply documentation
# [02:50] <cyns> EG: we would welcome that contact on webplatform.org
# [02:50] <adrianba> s/webplatforms.org/www.webplatform.org/
# [02:50] <cyns> PC: Eliott can help you get started. I know you were worried about how much work. On webplatform.org, you can start an outline and crowdsource the rest.
# [02:51] <cyns> PC: only outstanding bug is 23619
# [02:51] <paulc> Bug 23169 - reconsider the jitter video quality metrics again
# [02:51] <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169
# [02:51] <cyns> PC: this was originally closed. David Singer asked to have it reopened. I've been trying to get David or Apple to give us some feedback.
# [02:52] <cyns> PC: David is at the AG meeting. Sending Cyril to go get him
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# [02:53] <cyns> PC: bug 23441
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# [02:54] <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23441
# [02:54] <cyns> Pieer Lemieux repoppended. asking for a text change.
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# [02:54] <cyns> text implied that if text was not listed in table it could never be used
# [02:55] <adrianba> +1
# [02:55] <cyns> PC: ask the editors to implement change in comment 3
# [02:55] <acolwell> q+
# [02:55] * Zakim sees cyril, acolwell on the speaker queue
# [02:55] <adrianba> ack cyr
# [02:55] * Zakim sees acolwell on the speaker queue
# [02:55] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23441#c3 is the proposed change,
# [02:55] <acolwell> Does this also Adrian's concern about the language being strong enough?
# [02:55] * adrianba aaron, you will probably have to type and speak
# [02:55] <paulc> ack acol
# [02:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [02:56] <adrianba> yes
# [02:56] <acolwell> ok
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# [02:56] <cyns_> scribe: cyns
# [02:56] <cyns_> scribe: cyns_
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# [02:57] <cyns_> PC: the last bug 23169
# [02:57] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169#c13
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# [02:58] <cyns_> DS: the comment was that the sum of all frame delays. If you're a small amount late, it won't matter because it will hit the same refresh
# [02:58] <cyns_> DS: 2000 frames there were each 5 seconds late is very different from 5 frames that are miliseconds late
# [02:59] <cyns_> DS: we weren't sure this would help us detect that the media engine is getting into trouble
# [02:59] <MikeSmith> q?
# [02:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [02:59] <paulc> Orginal problems: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169#c0
# [02:59] <cyns_> DS: we weren't sure that this metric was useful.
# [03:00] <cyns_> see bug comment for details
# [03:01] <cyril> q+
# [03:01] * Zakim sees cyril on the speaker queue
# [03:01] <cyns_> ack cyril
# [03:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [03:02] <cyns_> CC: who would provide the threshold? the applciation or the engine?
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# [03:02] <cyns_> DS: intitalized to a default, then app would set it
# [03:02] <cyril> ack
# [03:03] <cyns_> BW: Option 3 is best. can't have a bunch of isolated late frames without having a lot stacked up behind very late ones, or you'll see drop frames.
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# [03:04] <cyns_> BW: you'd want to sample more often. Behind each very late frame, eitehr all the ones behind it are rendered and they are also late, or they are dropped. I feel like you can do it with a modified version fo the existing text.
# [03:05] <cyns_> DS: 2.5 seconds late will result in a burst of late seconds. 10 frames late is badly late, but 10 frame lateness may not be distinguisable from 50 frames taht are slightly late. There may be a serious grey area.
# [03:05] <cyns_> BW: Isn't that the same example? distinguising the one that is a lot late from many that are a little late.
# [03:05] <acolwell> q+
# [03:05] * Zakim sees acolwell on the speaker queue
# [03:06] <cyns_> DS: there is a grey area
# [03:06] <adrianba> q+
# [03:06] * Zakim sees acolwell, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [03:06] <cyns_> BW: I don't think it is very big
# [03:06] <shan> s/eitehr/either/
# [03:06] <cyns_> PC: 3 alternatives. I've heard one vote for #3.
# [03:06] <MikeSmith> q?
# [03:06] * Zakim sees acolwell, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [03:06] <acolwell> Should we defer this metric until we have more implementation experience with MSE? Netflix and YouTube are already shipping adaptive streaming players based on top of MSE w/o this and are essentially using prefixed versions of totalVideoFrames and droppedVideoFrames. It doesn't feel like this should block MSE from moving forward since this is essentially an extension of the HTMLVideoElement.
# [03:07] <cyns_> DS: this was the most minor part. If we want more experience with this metric before changing, that's ok
# [03:07] <cyns_> ack acolwell
# [03:07] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [03:08] <cyns_> PC: what we're saying is that there is no measure of late frames in those 2 numbers?
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# [03:08] <cyns_> DS: today we have totalvideoframes, droppedvideoframes, and totalframedelay.
# [03:09] <cyns_> PS: If you only have the total delay, you don't have a measure of slightly late and noticeably late
# [03:09] <cyns_> ack adrianba
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# [03:10] <cyns_> AB: I think what aaron was suggesting was similar. I think Aaron's suggestion is that people aren't currently using the frame delay in their experimental implementations based on browswers currently supporting this.
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# [03:10] <cyns_> AB: I think Aaron's proposal is that we move forward and he doesn't think this is blocking.
# [03:10] <acolwell> +1
# [03:11] <dsinger> It may be that we need experience with multiple media engines, and finding the cases where we are not adapting appropriately because of the 'strange' behavior of some media engine(s). We did not intend this as a blocking issue (indeed, expected it to be deferred as we posted it after a deadline).
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# [03:11] <cyns_> AB: my comment was going to be that we should have the chagnes Mark talked about to chagne the approach so it's based on frame rate. Perhaps we can mark this at risk, and determine during impl whether this is correct, doesn't matter, or needs to be modified.
# [03:11] <cyns_> PC: Can I have a better definition of what mark wants to change
# [03:12] <acolwell> I'm fine with including Mark's proposed text
# [03:12] * Quits: kotakagi (~kotakagi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:12] <cyns_> change is in comment 15
# [03:12] <paulc> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23169#c15
# [03:12] * Joins: ChristianFuhrhop (~christianfuhrhop@public.cloak)
# [03:13] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [03:13] <cyns_> PC: we talked offline, DS wasn't expecting to block last call. could this be marked at risk and ask for impl
# [03:13] <shan> s/chagnes/changes/
# [03:13] <cyns_> DS: Mark's changes will allow us to cover the important part of the bug.
# [03:14] * Quits: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:14] <cyns_> PC: editors, do you know what changes you need to make?
# [03:14] <shan> s/chagne/change/
# [03:14] <cyns_> AB: Mark made a proposal for specific chagnes. DS was that ok?
# [03:14] <cyns_> DS: yes, his changes fixed my points 1&3, 4 can be handled late
# [03:15] <cyns_> PC: what section is this in?
# [03:15] <adrianba> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#videoplaybackquality
# [03:15] * Quits: plh3 (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:15] * n5206 is now known as mark_vickers
# [03:15] <dsinger> so, summary, fix points 1-3 by editing, mark totalFrameDelay as 'at risk' or under consideration, get implementation experience with a variety of media engines and uses, and see where we go?
# [03:15] * Joins: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak)
# [03:16] <cyns_> PC: make changes in explanation in section 5 VideoPlaybackQuality Object
# [03:16] <Arno_> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [03:16] <RRSAgent> ok, Arno_; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [03:16] <cyns_> PC: all last call bugs are processed with good disposition. Next step is propose to go to CR
# [03:16] <cyns_> PC: here's what we need to do.
# [03:16] * Joins: danny_ (~Danny@public.cloak)
# [03:16] <cyns_> PC: 1. editors need to finish resolving bugs and prodcue candidate CR draft
# [03:16] <acolwell> ok. Is this just a new WD or do I have to make a special version?
# [03:17] <cyns_> PC: assume we'll have that by end of November. faster is ok too
# [03:17] <cyns_> AB: approx Nov 30.
# [03:17] <Arno_> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [03:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html Arno_
# [03:17] <acolwell> I think that is reasonable.
# [03:17] <cyns_> PC: 2 do a CFC in task force and/or in workign group. run simultatiously
# [03:18] <cyns_> (no objections)
# [03:18] <shan> s/prodcue/produce/
# [03:18] <cyns_> PC: 3 what is the minimum time for CR to run
# [03:18] * Quits: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak) (dsinger)
# [03:18] <ChristianFuhrhop> s/workign/working/
# [03:18] <Arno_> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [03:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Arno_
# [03:18] <cyns_> PL: There are some features hard to test without implementations
# [03:18] <cyns_> PC: yes, get out of CR by knowing that combo of impl and test results
# [03:19] <cyns_> PL: so we won't be able to exit for awile?
# [03:19] <cyns_> PC: asking for minimum. there is no maximum. need to warn people how long they have
# [03:19] <acolwell> 3-6 months seem reasonable since IE & Chrome already have implementations started
# [03:19] <cyns_> PC: assuming we'll use same criteria as html5, 2 independent interop implementaitons (not 10)
# [03:20] <cyns_> PC: I propose 3 months.
# [03:20] <adrianba> for example, see HTML5 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#status-of-this-document
# [03:20] <cyns_> CC: do we know how many tests?
# [03:20] * Quits: malaclyps (~Danny@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:20] <adrianba> "This Candidate Recommendation is expected to advance to Proposed Recommendation no earlier than 01 September 2014."
# [03:20] * Joins: kotakagi (~kotakagi@public.cloak)
# [03:21] <cyns_> PC: no we need to do that work. discuss at Dec 3 taskforce meeting. TF needs to move from speccing to testing
# [03:21] <cyns_> PC: 3 months
# [03:21] <cyns_> (no objections)
# [03:21] <cyns_> PC: 4. Are there any secitons we should mark at risk?
# [03:22] <ChristianFuhrhop> s/secitons/sections/
# [03:22] <cyns_> PC: If we have a section taht we're not sure we're going to get interoperability proof for, if that's marked at risk, then we can cut that feature from the spec and go forward.
# [03:23] <cyns_> PC: if you haven;t warned that the feature is at risk, they you have to go back to last call before going to PR.
# [03:23] <ChristianFuhrhop> s/taht/that/
# [03:23] * Joins: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak)
# [03:23] <acolwell> totalFrameDelay and appendStream() are the only 2 I can think of. TotalFrameDelay because of the previous discussion. AppendStream() because the Stream API is not stable.
# [03:23] <cyns_> PC: you want to get the list right, but it's a bit of a black art to get list right, because it's based on impl experience. we've already have metrix suggested for at risk
# [03:24] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
# [03:24] <cyns_> PC: videoplaybackqualtiy object is a candidate for at risk. Is it the whole object?
# [03:24] * Quits: danny_ (~Danny@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:24] <cyns_> AB: can we mark one attribute at risk.
# [03:24] * Joins: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak)
# [03:24] <acolwell> I'd prefer just marking the one attribute
# [03:24] <cyns_> PC: "one or more of the attributes" allows you to drop all or some
# [03:25] <adrianba> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#sourcebuffer-stream-append-loop
# [03:25] <adrianba> q+
# [03:25] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [03:25] <cyns_> CC: 3.5.6 Stream Object may be at risk.
# [03:25] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [03:25] <denis> zakim, call shenzhen
# [03:25] <Zakim> ok, denis; the call is being made
# [03:25] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [03:25] * Quits: r12a (rishida@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [03:25] * adrianba working on fixing the telcon
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# [03:26] <adrianba> q?
# [03:26] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [03:26] <cyns_> CC: depends on Streams API which is in flux
# [03:26] <cyns_> CC: are our refrences stable enough?
# [03:26] <cyns_> PC: HTML5, so we're our own worst enemy
# [03:26] * Joins: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [03:26] <cyns_> PC: File API is now a last call, not working draft
# [03:27] <cyns_> Robin: these are all marked as informative references, but I think that's a bug and they should be normative.
# [03:27] <cyns_> CC: yes, they are normative
# [03:27] <cyns_> Robin: file API is a problematic dependency, that's not its first last call. some parts are stable.
# [03:28] * Joins: nsakai_ (~nsakai@public.cloak)
# [03:28] <cyns_> PC: Streams API is marked as editors draft, was just made working draft Nov 5.
# [03:28] <MikeSmith> q?
# [03:28] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [03:28] <cyns_> ack adrianba
# [03:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [03:28] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [03:28] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that Streams API should not be considered stable at all
# [03:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [03:29] <MikeSmith> q-
# [03:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [03:29] <ddavis> zakim, call shenzhen
# [03:29] <Zakim> ok, ddavis; the call is being made
# [03:29] * Joins: Jirka (~jirka@public.cloak)
# [03:29] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [03:29] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [03:29] <cyns_> AB: Cyril's point is that streams concept in gerenal is in flux, so you should rely on the status of working draft.
# [03:29] <MikeSmith> what AB said
# [03:29] * ddavis MikeSmith - the phone seems to have gone dead again.
# [03:29] <cyns_> AB: disucussed this at the last conf call, options for stream dependency
# [03:29] * Joins: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak)
# [03:29] <cyns_> AB: option 1 mark sections that are dependent on stream at risk
# [03:30] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call shenzhen
# [03:30] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [03:30] <Zakim> +Shenzhen.a
# [03:30] <MikeSmith> zakimm, who's on the phone?
# [03:30] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the pone?
# [03:30] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
# [03:30] * ddavis acolwell: Can you hear us?
# [03:30] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [03:30] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), Aaron_Colwell, joesteele_, Shenzhen.a (muted)
# [03:30] <acolwell> nope
# [03:30] <cyns_> AB: option 2: are we insulated enough from details of stream, just take it as a param, and details of streams spec left out. Might be blocked from CR, but wouldn't have to modify text
# [03:30] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Shenzhen.a
# [03:30] <Zakim> Shenzhen.a is being disconnected
# [03:30] <Zakim> -Shenzhen.a
# [03:30] <shan> s/disucussed/discussed/
# [03:30] <ddavis> zakim, unmute shenzhen
# [03:30] <Zakim> Shenzhen should no longer be muted
# [03:30] <denis> zakim, unmute Shenzhen
# [03:30] <Zakim> Shenzhen was not muted, denis
# [03:31] <cyns_> AB: option 3: stream changes enough taht we drop it
# [03:31] <acolwell> just heard some beeping
# [03:31] <ddavis> zakim, call shenzhen
# [03:31] <Zakim> ok, ddavis; the call is being made
# [03:31] <Zakim> +Shenzhen.a
# [03:31] <cyns_> AB: my opionion is that we don't want to drop it, so we need to wait and see.
# [03:31] <Zakim> -joesteele_
# [03:31] <cyns_> PC: AB does not want to mark at risk or remove.
# [03:31] <acolwell> I agree w/ adrian. We don't want to drop it
# [03:31] * Quits: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:31] <Zakim> -Shenzhen.a
# [03:32] <ddavis> zakim, call shenzhen
# [03:32] <Zakim> ok, ddavis; the call is being made
# [03:32] <Zakim> +Shenzhen.a
# [03:32] <denis> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [03:32] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen, Aaron_Colwell, Shenzhen.a
# [03:32] <cyns_> q?
# [03:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [03:32] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [03:32] <joesteele_> can you post the conf code again - my phone was disconnected
# [03:33] <adrianba> zakim, code?
# [03:33] <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), adrianba
# [03:34] <cyns_> AC: I'd like to keep it in there. I think I agree that we really only rely on the name of stream object
# [03:34] * Quits: ChristianFuhrhop (~christianfuhrhop@public.cloak) ("Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de")
# [03:34] <cyns_> AC: right now msft ships with a prefixed stream object. will that block interop and moving out of CR
# [03:34] <cyns_> PC: msft policy is to leave prefix until spec leaves CR. Is that correct?
# [03:35] * Quits: nsakai_ (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:35] <cyns_> AB: that is a judgement call. not the same for every spec.
# [03:35] <cyns_> AB: want more demonstration of interop before droppign prefix. I don't see the prefix stream as a blocker for testing. I think we can make progress.
# [03:36] <cyns_> PC: Stream NOT marked as risk
# [03:36] * adrianba MikeSmith, joe says the conference says it is restricted
# [03:36] * Quits: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:36] <cyns_> CC: filed a bug that informative references should be informative
# [03:36] <adrianba> q?
# [03:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [03:36] <shan> s/droppign/dropping/
# [03:37] * darobin FWIW, in ReSpec, if you use [[FOO]] you get an informative ref; if you use [[!FOO]] you get a normative ref
# [03:37] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:37] * darobin reckons that's where the bug is
# [03:37] <cyns_> CC: I agree stream is an important feature, especially for embedded device. It's a feature we need. You could maybe leave it out for a first version.
# [03:37] <MikeSmith> joesteele_, please try again
# [03:37] <cyns_> CC: on the stream API spec, it's completely changing. maybe the new one will be the same from a usage point of view, but maybe not. not marking as risk is risky
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# [03:37] <cyns_> PL: what is plan b?
# [03:38] <cyns_> PL: what happens if stream API changes in ways that don't work for this spec?
# [03:38] <cyns_> AB: there's broad recognition that we need the concept of stream. lots of use cases, this is one. I belive the discussions will lead ot a solution that works for MSE
# [03:39] <cyns_> AB: I'm not convinced there will be a complete chagne that willl not work for MSE. I don't think we need a plan b. Plan B is to go back to last call and try again with this feature.
# [03:39] <cyns_> PL: are we talking to streams about our requirements and schedule?
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# [03:40] <acolwell> I have been talking with the Streams editor that works for Google
# [03:40] <cyns_> PC: that's something the chair should do. I'll take an action if we agre
# [03:40] <cyns_> CC: what is the downside of marking a feature at risk?
# [03:41] * Quits: Marcus_Altman__ (~Marcus_Altman@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:41] <cyns_> PC: usually causes it to be tested first. people who think it's important will work hard to demonstrate that it works.
# [03:41] * Quits: droh (~droh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:41] <cyns_> PC: If people don't think MSE should go forward without Streams, then we shouldn't mark it at risk.
# [03:41] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [03:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [03:42] <cyns_> PC: another Plan B. If streams API changes too much, we can pull the part we want into our spec. The Director won't like that.
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# [03:42] <cyril> for the minutes, the bug I filed regarding normative references is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23818
# [03:42] <cyns_> PC: Plan B is that we make our intent really clear to web apps
# [03:43] <cyns_> AB: the reson we have stream in MSE is so we can consume streams created from other specs, likely doens't make sense to suck it into MSE
# [03:43] <MikeSmith> again, what AB siid
# [03:43] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [03:43] <MikeSmith> s/siid/said/
# [03:43] <cyns_> PL: Please share intended features and also timing
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# [03:44] <denis> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [03:44] <Zakim> On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, Shenzhen.a
# [03:44] <pal_> PL suggests creating an explicit action to communicate intentions to webapps re: Streams API
# [03:45] <cyns_> PC: summary: editors produce a candidate CR draft by Nov 30. fix normaitve/informative reference bug. Draft presented to TF and WG to go into CR. Draft would indicate minimum CR period of 3 months. The only feature at risk is the one we idenitifed earlier. Chairs have action to coordinate with Web apps on stream object.
# [03:45] <cyns_> ACTION: paulc to coordinate with Web Apps on the streams API, give them MSE requirements and timeline
# [03:45] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [03:45] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [03:45] <trackbot> Created ACTION-231 - Coordinate with web apps on the streams api, give them mse requirements and timeline [on Paul Cotton - due 2013-11-21].
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# [03:46] <cyns_> PC: objections from people in the room. CFC will be in early december, and you can object then if you wish.
# [03:46] <ddavis> s/objections from/no objections from/
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# [03:49] <shan> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [03:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html shan
# [03:50] <Zakim> -Aaron_Colwell
# [03:50] * Quits: mark_vickers (~mav@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [03:51] <denis> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [03:51] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen.a
# [03:51] <denis> zakim, drop Shenzhen.a
# [03:51] <Zakim> Shenzhen.a is being disconnected
# [03:51] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)01:04Z has ended
# [03:51] <Zakim> Attendees were Shenzhen, Amy, Aaron_Colwell, +1.925.648.aaaa, joesteele_, Shenzhen.a
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# [03:52] <denis> zakim, this will be html
# [03:52] <Zakim> ok, denis; I see HTML_WG()8:00PM scheduled to start 113 minutes ago
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# [03:53] <denis> zakim, call shenzhen
# [03:53] <Zakim> ok, denis; the call is being made
# [03:53] <Zakim> HTML_WG()8:00PM has now started
# [03:53] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [03:53] <denis> joesteele_, can you try to call zakim?
# [03:53] <denis> zakim, code?
# [03:53] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), denis
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# [03:55] <Zakim> +joesteele_
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# [04:10] <Zakim> -joesteele_
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# [04:21] <denis> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [04:21] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen
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# [04:22] <denis> zakim, code?
# [04:22] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), denis
# [04:22] * Quits: shan (~shan@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [04:22] <Zakim> +joesteele_
# [04:23] * Joins: shan (~shan@public.cloak)
# [04:23] <darobin> paulc: we're going to process bugs for EME
# [04:23] * Joins: ChristianFuhrhop (~christianfuhrhop@public.cloak)
# [04:23] <darobin> ... we might continue after lunch
# [04:23] * Joins: Noriya (~Noriya@public.cloak)
# [04:23] <darobin> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [04:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, darobin
# [04:23] <darobin> scribenick: darobin
# [04:23] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [04:24] <darobin> Topic: MSE bugs
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# [04:24] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0015.html
# [04:24] <darobin> paulc: David Dorwin gave an update about some changes he'd made
# [04:24] * Joins: Nicks (~Nicks@public.cloak)
# [04:24] <darobin> ... I responded with an email of the outstanding bugs
# [04:25] * Joins: cyril (~cyril@public.cloak)
# [04:25] <darobin> ... David responded overnight with an enumeration of the order in which we should discuss these bugs [see link above]
# [04:25] * Joins: Jirka (~jirka@public.cloak)
# [04:25] * Joins: Takahiro (~takahiro@public.cloak)
# [04:25] <darobin> ... he hasn't relettered them, but they're in an order that he feels best for discussion
# [04:25] <darobin> ... he has also enumerated a subset of the bugs that are lower priority
# [04:26] <darobin> ... I would like to close as many as we can
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# [04:26] <denis> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [04:26] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), joesteele_ (muted)
# [04:26] <ddavis> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [04:26] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), joesteele_ (muted)
# [04:26] * Joins: yuka_o (~yuka_o@public.cloak)
# [04:26] * Joins: chen (~chen@public.cloak)
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# [04:26] * Quits: jjj (~Android@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:26] <adrianba> zakim, unmute Shenzhen
# [04:26] <Zakim> Shenzhen should no longer be muted
# [04:26] <denis> zakim, unmute Shenzhen
# [04:26] <ddavis> zakim, unmute Shenzhen
# [04:26] <Zakim> Shenzhen was not muted, denis
# [04:26] <Zakim> Shenzhen was not muted, ddavis
# [04:27] * wseltzer zakim, who is on the phone?
# [04:27] * Zakim sees on the phone: Shenzhen, joesteele_ (muted)
# [04:27] <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [04:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen, joesteele_ (muted)
# [04:27] * ddavis joesteele_: Can you hear us?
# [04:27] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [04:27] <darobin> paulc: since we have joesteele_ here, and I don't know what TZ he's in, should we do any of his items first?
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# [04:28] <joesteele_> don't worry about my items -- I am sitting at home
# [04:28] <darobin> davidd: we can jump to 17660
# [04:28] * ddavis Joe can hear us but it's noisy apparently.
# [04:30] <darobin> Topic: d) Bug 17660 - need token relative with user identity for a new generateKeyRequest parameter
# [04:31] <paulc> test
# [04:31] <joesteele_> I cannot understand well enough to respond to questions unless they are in the IRC
# [04:31] * Joins: hoyang1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [04:31] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [04:32] <darobin> paulc: david, do you want to introduce?
# [04:32] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17660
# [04:32] * adrianba joe - we were just figuring out projecting in the room
# [04:32] <darobin> david: this was filed by joe a long time ago
# [04:32] <darobin> adrianba: this is one of my actions that I didn't complete
# [04:32] <darobin> ACTION-54?
# [04:32] * trackbot is looking up ACTION-54.
# [04:32] <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-09-26 -- CLOSED
# [04:32] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
# [04:32] * Quits: pal_ (~pal@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:32] <darobin> [that's not the right action]
# [04:33] <darobin> adrianba: joe initially raised this issue about the need to provide information in createSession, which for his use case was about user information
# [04:33] <darobin> ... we actually have a more general issue here
# [04:33] * Quits: hoyang (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:33] <darobin> ... which is that playready provides a way of having app specific info included in the key request
# [04:34] <darobin> ... a while ago you could package that up with EME in the same request you used to the license server
# [04:34] <ddorwin> q+
# [04:34] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [04:34] <darobin> ... more that ??% have used this functionality
# [04:34] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/54
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# [04:34] <ddorwin> s/??%/50%/
# [04:34] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [04:34] <darobin> ... so in our implementation today we have an additional parameter which allows people to provide this data
# [04:34] <darobin> ... there may be a more general solution to this that may address joesteele_'s concern
# [04:34] <ddorwin> s/more that/more than/
# [04:35] <ddorwin> ack me
# [04:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:35] <paulc> Media TF action item on Adrian is still outstanding.
# [04:35] <darobin> ... the CDN can decide what it wants to do with this information later
# [04:35] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/54
# [04:36] <darobin> paulc: so ACTION-54 is still outstanding
# [04:36] <paulc> ack Dd
# [04:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:36] <darobin> david: so I think this causes interop problem
# [04:36] <joesteele_> the more general solution I proposed was to "bless" a direct communication channel between the CDM and the application where necessary - using the keyRequest/update channel
# [04:36] <darobin> ... this makes it more difficult and likely that other DRMs will be supported
# [04:36] <darobin> ... so I'm not a fan of adding a parameter that decreases interop
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# [04:37] <markw> q+
# [04:37] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [04:37] <paulc> joe?
# [04:37] <joesteele_> did you ask a question? all I heard was "joe"
# [04:37] <darobin> markw: I think there are two separate issues
# [04:38] * wseltzer joesteele_, question was whether you wanted to say anything
# [04:38] * Joins: rniwa_ (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [04:38] <darobin> ... adrianba's proposal is about the app providing an extra piece of data to the CDN which it then includes in message
# [04:38] <darobin> ... whereas david's something else
# [04:38] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:38] * rniwa_ is now known as rniwa
# [04:38] <markw> s/david's/joe's/
# [04:38] <darobin> adrianba: so I think there are a number of separate but related issues
# [04:39] <joesteele_> I am in favor of Adrians proposal -- but it is separate issue as Mark pointed out and does not address my whole concern
# [04:39] * Joins: kimwoonyoung (~kimwoonyoung@public.cloak)
# [04:39] <joesteele_> but would help
# [04:39] <markw> s/something else/communication between CDM and client-side application code/
# [04:39] * Joins: silvia1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [04:39] <darobin> ... my action is to summarise why I think providing information to the CDM which it can decide what to do with
# [04:39] <darobin> ... that certainly could cause issues with interop
# [04:40] <darobin> ... if you didn't already need to have a CDM-specific server point, with CDM-specific logic processing
# [04:40] <ddorwin> q+
# [04:40] * Zakim sees markw, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [04:40] * Quits: plh3 (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:40] <darobin> ... in practice I don't thikn it causes a problem
# [04:40] <paulc> ack markw
# [04:40] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [04:40] <darobin> ... so I think there are multiple items related by a common thread
# [04:41] <joesteele_> I agree -- in practice this will not be a problem -- for either of our proposals
# [04:41] <darobin> ... I think there are a number of apps that have logic that varies with using different CDMs
# [04:41] <shan> s/thikn/think/
# [04:41] <darobin> ... while it 's possible to write apps that can operate with multiple CDMs
# [04:41] * Joins: Marcus_Altman (~Marcus_Altman@public.cloak)
# [04:41] <darobin> ... in practice people will need to do something that's CDM-specific
# [04:41] <ddavis> q?
# [04:41] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [04:41] <markw> q+
# [04:41] * Zakim sees ddorwin, markw on the speaker queue
# [04:41] <paulc> ack dd
# [04:42] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [04:42] <darobin> ddorwin: some of those 50% have very big @@ and for that reason don't want to port
# [04:42] <paulc> ack markw
# [04:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:42] <ddorwin> ack me
# [04:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:42] <wseltzer> s/have very big @@/are already supporting playready/
# [04:42] <darobin> markw: our principle here is to place the burden on the service provider rather than on the user
# [04:42] <darobin> ... it should be that if the service providers need to adapt then it's the whole idea
# [04:43] * Quits: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:43] <darobin> ... I can see a situation in which the information is passed inside the key message
# [04:43] <darobin> ... if there's a second system that doesn't support this
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# [04:43] <darobin> ... then the provider need to update to pass the information out of band
# [04:43] * Joins: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [04:43] <darobin> ... so it seems that this is a transitionary thing while there's a provider that supports a key system that doesn't support this
# [04:44] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [04:44] <darobin> ... so the question should be how important we think it is to support that transtion
# [04:44] <joesteele_> that assumes that the mechanism you are referring to is not a significant feature add for the provider
# [04:44] <joesteele_> in those cases the provider will *not* want to make the transition
# [04:44] <joesteele_> and will instead rely on existing DRMs
# [04:45] <darobin> Topic: q) Bug 22909 - Needs non-normative Security Considerations section
# [04:45] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22909
# [04:45] <adrianba> q+
# [04:45] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [04:45] <markw> @joesteele_: I didn't assume it's not a significant feature. I just said that whether we include it in the specification depends on how important we think it is to support this transition.
# [04:45] <darobin> ddorwin: I dropped some of the action done
# [04:46] <darobin> markw: I had actions to address these bugs for non-norm security and privacy sections
# [04:46] <darobin> ... to get discussion going I provided some text
# [04:46] <darobin> ... I expect comments, not polished
# [04:46] <ddorwin> text starts here: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#security
# [04:46] <darobin> ... encourage anyone with expertise to review
# [04:46] <adrianba> q-
# [04:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:46] <darobin> ... text in the ED
# [04:46] <darobin> ... [link above]
# [04:47] <darobin> ... in both cases users rely on the UA to look out for their interests
# [04:47] <ddorwin> And for bug 22910: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#privacy
# [04:47] <darobin> ... we have a case in which the key system and CDM are from different people
# [04:47] * Quits: mkelly (~mkelly@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:47] <darobin> ... the CDM implementers are going to have to provide information to the UA about privacy and security properties
# [04:48] <darobin> ... so that UAs can make informed decisions
# [04:48] <darobin> ... we should thnk about how to make that happen
# [04:48] <darobin> ... it's an important aspect of the ecosystem we're creating
# [04:48] <ddorwin> q+
# [04:48] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [04:48] <wseltzer> q+
# [04:48] * Zakim sees ddorwin, wseltzer on the speaker queue
# [04:48] <darobin> ... UAs should meet users' expectations
# [04:48] * Joins: olivier (~olivier.thereaux@public.cloak)
# [04:48] <darobin> paulc: I take it these sections satisfy the AI
# [04:49] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:50] <darobin> adrianba: we have feedback saying that if they're non-normative we shouldn't use RFC 6919 keywords
# [04:50] * Joins: pal (~pal@public.cloak)
# [04:50] * wseltzer is that SHOULD NOT ?
# [04:50] <darobin> paulc: you've left the action open?
# [04:50] <darobin> markw: the bugs are still open
# [04:50] * Joins: nicks_ (~nicks@public.cloak)
# [04:50] <darobin> ... do we close these bugs and let people raise more on specific issues?
# [04:51] <darobin> paulc: that's typical
# [04:51] <darobin> ... it'll get too confusing
# [04:51] <adrianba> q+
# [04:51] * Zakim sees ddorwin, wseltzer, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [04:51] <darobin> ... mark as resolved, and people who want frther changes file additional bugs
# [04:51] <ddorwin> ack me
# [04:51] * Zakim sees wseltzer, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [04:52] <paulc> ack dd
# [04:52] * Zakim sees wseltzer, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [04:52] <paulc> ack wsel
# [04:52] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [04:52] <darobin> wseltzer: W3C staff
# [04:52] <darobin> ... member of the Privacy IG
# [04:52] <darobin> ... thanks Mark for sending us notice of these sections, we've been trying to get this reviewed
# [04:52] <darobin> ... will increase the urgency
# [04:53] <darobin> ... the points you've made here, interaction between browser and CDM, are interesting and we want to review
# [04:53] <darobin> ... we can try to see if the Security group can find people to review
# [04:53] <darobin> paulc: there's a thread
# [04:53] <darobin> ... wseltzer is referring to a dialogue between the TF and the PING
# [04:54] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Oct/0046.html
# [04:54] <paulc> ac adr
# [04:54] <paulc> ack adr
# [04:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:54] <darobin> adrianba: the reason I didn't resolve the bugs
# [04:54] <wseltzer> s/ac adr//
# [04:55] <darobin> ... I put markw's text into the specs
# [04:55] <darobin> ... wasn't sure if we wanted to do something in spec to indicate stability of these sections
# [04:55] * Quits: wonsuk (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (wonsuk)
# [04:55] * Joins: Zac (~zac@public.cloak)
# [04:55] * Quits: Nicks (~Nicks@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:55] <darobin> ... I want people to understand that we welcome solid feedback here
# [04:56] <markw> q+
# [04:56] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [04:56] * Joins: darobis (~darobis@public.cloak)
# [04:56] <darobin> paulc: we've done this before, you can add markers to indicate this
# [04:56] <darobin> ... we give the editors some leeway to indicate to people that this isn't a fait accompli
# [04:57] <pal> q+
# [04:57] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
# [04:57] <darobin> markw: two things
# [04:57] <darobin> ... I agree we should put markers in the spec
# [04:57] <darobin> ... leave the bugs open and indicate that in the bugs
# [04:58] <darobin> ... and also ask people to raise new bugs for new issues
# [04:58] <darobin> ... also, I was wondering if wseltzer is volunteering to find someone to review the secruty section
# [04:58] <darobin> s/secruty/security/
# [04:58] <darobin> paulc: any suggestions on where we might find such an expert
# [04:59] <darobin> ... webappsec?
# [04:59] <wseltzer> q+ to say I'll ask the WebSec IG
# [04:59] * Zakim sees markw, pal, wseltzer on the speaker queue
# [04:59] * Quits: Zac (~zac@public.cloak) ("")
# [04:59] <darobin> glenn__: just a reminder I made a link to RFC6973 about privacy considerations for internet protocols, maybe the list of authors can help
# [04:59] <darobin> paulc: if it's just privacy it doesn't help
# [04:59] <slightlyoff> note that the TAG can help coordinate if this group would find it usefu
# [05:00] * Parts: hoyang1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (hoyang1)
# [05:00] * Joins: hoyang1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [05:00] * Quits: kimwoonyoung (~kimwoonyoung@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [05:00] <wseltzer> q-
# [05:00] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
# [05:00] <darobin> ACTION: Paul to work with Wendy to make sure we get a security review
# [05:00] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [05:00] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [05:00] <trackbot> Created ACTION-232 - Work with wendy to make sure we get a security review [on Paul Cotton - due 2013-11-21].
# [05:01] <darobin> paulc: I would prefer to close the bugs
# [05:01] <darobin> ... we've given the inital attempt, we want review
# [05:01] * Joins: junil_ (~junil@public.cloak)
# [05:01] * wseltzer 22909, 22910
# [05:01] <darobin> ... any object to closing 22909 or 22910?
# [05:01] <darobin> [silence]
# [05:02] * Parts: hoyang1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (hoyang1)
# [05:02] <darobin> CLOSING bugs 22909 and 22910
# [05:02] * Joins: hoyang1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [05:02] * masatakayakura is now known as myakura
# [05:02] <darobin> pal: to help others schedule their review, what's the timeline?
# [05:02] * Parts: hoyang1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (hoyang1)
# [05:02] * Joins: hoyang1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [05:03] <darobin> paulc: I'd know the answer if I knew the results from the comments
# [05:03] <darobin> ... is Dec 15 reasonable?
# [05:03] <darobin> wseltzer: I will make sure I can get an answer on whether that's reasonable
# [05:03] <darobin> RESOLUTION: we plan to give a month from today to review these sections
# [05:04] * Quits: saki (~saki@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [05:04] <darobin> Topic: t) Bug 23733 - Consider prohibiting support of active content by CDMs
# [05:04] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23733
# [05:05] <darobin> markw: this came from the text I initially proposed there was a mention of active content
# [05:05] <darobin> ... some people commented that we might simply want to prohibit CDMs from processing active content
# [05:05] <pal> q+
# [05:05] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
# [05:05] <darobin> ... it would certainly simplify our security section
# [05:05] <joesteele_> q+
# [05:05] * Zakim sees markw, pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [05:06] <paulc> ack mark
# [05:06] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [05:06] <darobin> pal: I commented on that bug
# [05:06] * Joins: wilhelm (~wilhelm@public.cloak)
# [05:06] <darobin> ... what does active content really mean?
# [05:07] <darobin> ... if this is made normative, we have to think really hard about the definition of that term
# [05:07] <mark_vickers> +1 on active content being too vague.
# [05:07] * Quits: markw (~markw@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:07] <darobin> ... if I read the definition in RFC 4949 pretty much everything falls under that
# [05:08] <paulc> ack pal
# [05:08] * Zakim sees joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [05:08] <adrianba> ack joe
# [05:08] * Zakim unmutes joesteele_
# [05:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [05:08] <joesteele_> my comment was basically agreeing with pal -- and also to point out that BD+ uses active content by this definition
# [05:09] <pal> q+
# [05:09] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [05:09] * Joins: lgombos__ (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [05:09] <paulc> ack pal
# [05:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [05:10] * Joins: saki (~saki@public.cloak)
# [05:10] <mark_vickers> q+
# [05:10] * Zakim sees mark_vickers on the speaker queue
# [05:10] <darobin> pal: hopefully everyone agrees that the client executing arbitrary native code in a trusted env is a really bad idea
# [05:10] * Quits: lgombos_ (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:10] <darobin> ... but the definition of active content in the document is much broader than that
# [05:10] <darobin> ... there are other examples of content that would all under that, e.g. PDF
# [05:11] <ddorwin> I don't think we want things like PDF running in CDMs
# [05:11] <darobin> paulc: so how is this term actually used?
# [05:11] <darobin> pal: the question was about whether to make the prohibition normative
# [05:12] <darobin> ... my comment is in reaction to that
# [05:12] <darobin> ... unless active content can be defined in a way that makes sense, there cannot be such a prohibitions
# [05:12] <darobin> paulc: so what markw wanted was an addition to the security section for this
# [05:13] <darobin> ... I hear people saying that we should understand what we're doing but not hearing yay or nay
# [05:13] <darobin> pal: with current text, nay
# [05:13] <paulc> ack mark
# [05:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [05:13] <darobin> mark_vickers: I would say no under that definition
# [05:13] <darobin> ... also point out that the RFC is information, not standards track
# [05:14] <darobin> markw: we need a better definition, I just saw that the text was already there, wondering if it was good enough
# [05:14] <darobin> ... executing code from the internet that may have access to system API would raise a security question
# [05:14] * Quits: ChristianFuhrhop (~christianfuhrhop@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:14] <darobin> ... we should keep this under review, the question of excluding some active content remains open
# [05:15] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
# [05:15] <adrianba> q?
# [05:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [05:15] <darobin> paulc: so we keep this open, and should ask the security reviewer when we find them
# [05:15] <mark_vickers> q+
# [05:15] * Zakim sees mark_vickers on the speaker queue
# [05:15] * wseltzer ack
# [05:15] <paulc> ack mark
# [05:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [05:15] * Joins: markw (~markw@public.cloak)
# [05:15] <darobin> mark_vickers: if this is the only definition we have, I would say we don't want to do that
# [05:15] <darobin> ... if we have something we should exclude, we should list that
# [05:16] <darobin> ... if we want to say no to executing arbitrary code from an unknown source, fine
# [05:16] <darobin> .... but I'm not sure what we're going for since the text is too vague
# [05:16] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [05:17] <darobin> glenn__: just a note to markw, I defined active object content in the DIS standard 2003
# [05:17] <darobin> ... there is at least one definition
# [05:17] <darobin> DASE
# [05:18] * Quits: Jirka (~jirka@public.cloak) (Jirka)
# [05:18] <glenn__> http://www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a100/a_100_1.pdf
# [05:18] <darobin> paulc: other opinions?
# [05:18] <glenn__> see "active object content" definition in section 3.3
# [05:18] <darobin> ddorwin: difference between seeing something and acting on it, and actually running it
# [05:19] <pal> q+
# [05:19] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [05:19] <darobin> ... I think running active content in the context of a CDM, hardware or root, would be bad
# [05:19] <mark_vickers> q+
# [05:19] * Zakim sees pal, mark_vickers on the speaker queue
# [05:19] <paulc> acl pal
# [05:19] <darobin> pal: what's needed is for someone to make a proposal for something better than current definition
# [05:19] <darobin> ... unless there's a better proposal we can't leave this open forever
# [05:19] <wseltzer> q+
# [05:19] * Zakim sees pal, mark_vickers, wseltzer on the speaker queue
# [05:20] <darobin> mark_vickers: I want to close because I don't udnerstand what this is doing, so unsure how to help wirte text
# [05:20] <darobin> ... things I've heard so far seem to apply to all parts of the UA
# [05:20] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@public.cloak) (kennyluck)
# [05:20] <darobin> ... so why are we applying this here?
# [05:20] * Quits: danielkim (~mz_modeltaxi@public.cloak) ("")
# [05:20] <ddorwin> q+
# [05:20] * Zakim sees pal, mark_vickers, wseltzer, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [05:20] <darobin> paulc: so if HTML5 had a security consideration section, why would it say something different?
# [05:20] <darobin> mark_vickers: right
# [05:20] * Quits: taocai (~taocai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:20] <joesteele_> isn't the key concern about "unrestricted code execution" not the particular type of code being executed?
# [05:20] <darobin> paulc: so maybe because CDM is out of scope?
# [05:21] <darobin> mark_vickers: but there are also lots of other things that are linked to by the UA, nothing CDM unique about this
# [05:21] <darobin> wseltzer: webappsec probably has some definition that could be useful here
# [05:22] <darobin> ... there's a difference between the user trusting a CDM accepting arbitrary content, and a process doing the same but without the sort of opaque power that the CDM has
# [05:22] <ddorwin> q-
# [05:22] * Zakim sees pal, mark_vickers, wseltzer on the speaker queue
# [05:22] <pal> q-
# [05:22] * Zakim sees mark_vickers, wseltzer on the speaker queue
# [05:22] <wseltzer> q-
# [05:22] * Zakim sees mark_vickers on the speaker queue
# [05:22] <pal> ack mark_vickers
# [05:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [05:22] <mark_vickers> q-
# [05:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [05:23] <darobin> Topic: j) Bug 20944 - EME should do more to encourage/ensure CDM-level interop
# [05:23] * Joins: krit (~sid15081@public.cloak)
# [05:23] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20944#c31
# [05:23] <Tomoyuki> s/rich/rice/
# [05:23] <darobin> paulc: appears to be an open ended question
# [05:24] * Quits: kurosawa_ (~kurosawa@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [05:24] <darobin> ... outstanding since last phone call
# [05:24] <darobin> ddorwin: I think the privacy and security issues were the last outstanding from that draft
# [05:24] <markw> q+
# [05:24] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [05:24] <darobin> paulc: I think this issue was there in the FPWD
# [05:25] <darobin> ... sotd now points to bits for review
# [05:25] * Joins: ChristianFuhrhop2 (~christianfuhrhop@public.cloak)
# [05:25] <MikeSmith> q?
# [05:25] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [05:25] <darobin> ... but 20944 is still outstanding
# [05:26] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask what efforts are being made to get DMR reps participating in the discussion
# [05:26] * Zakim sees markw, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [05:26] <pal> q+
# [05:26] * Zakim sees markw, MikeSmith, pal on the speaker queue
# [05:26] <darobin> markw: want to point out that 1) my summary of roc's proposal of what should be a possible resolution, I think it wouldn't work for some people but I haven't heard back from anyone
# [05:26] <ddorwin> s/ddorwin: I think the privacy and security issues were the last outstanding from that draft/ddorwin: I think this and the privacy and security issues were the last outstanding from the discussion around FPWD/
# [05:26] <darobin> [summarises the comment]
# [05:27] <darobin> ... both 2 and 3 would be progress
# [05:27] <darobin> q?
# [05:27] * Zakim sees markw, MikeSmith, pal on the speaker queue
# [05:27] <paulc> ack markw
# [05:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, pal on the speaker queue
# [05:27] <mark_vickers> q+
# [05:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, pal, mark_vickers on the speaker queue
# [05:27] <paulc> ack Mike
# [05:27] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask what efforts are being made to get DMR reps participating in the discussion
# [05:27] * Zakim sees pal, mark_vickers on the speaker queue
# [05:27] <darobin> MikeSmith: so this discussion has been pretty much going nowhere
# [05:27] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [05:28] <darobin> ... part of the reason is that the people participating are not those in a position to comment on whether the proposals are acceptable
# [05:28] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:28] * Joins: igarashi (~androirc@public.cloak)
# [05:28] <darobin> ... we should elicit direct public feedback from CDM vendors as to whether this is acceptable, and if not why not
# [05:28] <darobin> ... but there has been no effort to make this happen
# [05:28] <ddorwin> q+
# [05:28] * Zakim sees pal, mark_vickers, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [05:28] <paulc> ack pal
# [05:28] * Zakim sees mark_vickers, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [05:28] <darobin> pal: this group can't compel anyone to respond to anything
# [05:29] * Joins: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak)
# [05:29] <darobin> ... what happens if no response is received?
# [05:29] * Quits: nsakai_ (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [05:29] <paulc> ack pal
# [05:29] * Zakim sees mark_vickers, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [05:30] * Quits: saki (~saki@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [05:30] * Quits: Tomoyuki (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (Tomoyuki)
# [05:30] * Joins: Tomoyuki (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
# [05:30] <wseltzer> darobin: if there's no response on an important bug, then at the next transition, the Director might conclude that there has not been broad review, and decline the transition request
# [05:30] <darobin> paulc: this is important enough, the team might ask for a Director's call before LC (instead of CR)
# [05:30] <MikeSmith> q?
# [05:30] * Zakim sees mark_vickers, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [05:30] <paulc> ack mark
# [05:31] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [05:31] <paulc> ack mark
# [05:31] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [05:31] <darobin> mark_vickers: I just think that looking at these proposals, if you substitute CDM for UA it would be clearly unreasonable
# [05:31] <darobin> ... the publicity of APIs for instance wouldn't work, e.g. file system APIs
# [05:32] <darobin> ... otherwise, why isn't this a general W3C policy on components of a UA
# [05:32] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that the comparison to the FileSystem API is not relevant
# [05:32] * Zakim sees ddorwin, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [05:32] * Joins: jjj (~Android@public.cloak)
# [05:32] <markw> q+
# [05:32] * Zakim sees ddorwin, MikeSmith, markw on the speaker queue
# [05:32] <ddorwin> 3 comments:
# [05:32] <darobin> ... I think the CDM is being singled out in an unfair manner
# [05:32] <ddorwin> 1) Does what is being discussed even address the real concerns/objections?
# [05:32] <ddorwin> 2) I worry about putting requirements to document any internal implementation? It could result in a) slow development (imagine writing publicly visible design documentation for your entire project) b) lead to stale and useless documentation, and c) discourage supporting additional platforms
# [05:32] <ddorwin> 3) As for a registry, the same key system name can be implemented in different ways on different platforms.
# [05:32] <paulc> ack dd
# [05:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, markw on the speaker queue
# [05:32] * Quits: junil_ (~junil@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:33] * darobin ddorwin++ for self-scribing ahead of time
# [05:33] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that CDM vendors are not being singled out; what is being is asked here is not unreasonable; what is being asked is for CDM vendors to provide the same information that other systems do
# [05:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, markw on the speaker queue
# [05:34] <paulc> ack Mike
# [05:34] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that the comparison to the FileSystem API is not relevant and to say that CDM vendors are not being singled out; what is being is asked here is not
# [05:34] <Zakim> ... unreasonable; what is being asked is for CDM vendors to provide the same information that other systems do
# [05:34] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [05:34] <pal> q+
# [05:34] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
# [05:34] <darobin> MikeSmith: I completely disagree about this being unreasonable
# [05:34] <darobin> ... I don't think that other people involved in the bug discussion find this unreasonable
# [05:34] <darobin> ... there's discussion of the level of detail that a vendor could provide without compromising the security of their system
# [05:34] * olivier is baffled that this discussion is happening without any CDM implementors in the room
# [05:35] <darobin> ... it's certainly not true that CDM vendors are being singled-out
# [05:35] <joesteele_> It would be more reasonable to ask the CDM vendors to disclose the details of the message requests and responses. That would at least have some privacy value.
# [05:35] <darobin> ... the discussion is about exposing just the information to enable open source implementations to interact with their system
# [05:35] <darobin> ... but again, we haven't had a chance to interact with someone who might find this unreasonable
# [05:35] <darobin> ... I think we're treading water
# [05:35] <darobin> q?
# [05:35] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
# [05:36] <paulc> ack mark
# [05:36] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [05:36] <darobin> markw: difference between item 1 and items 2-3
# [05:36] <darobin> ... the latter are small and reasonable
# [05:36] <joesteele_> +1 to Marks comment -- those are easily discoverable in any event
# [05:36] <darobin> ... there is a Play Ready porting kit
# [05:36] <darobin> ... item 2 would just require [very fast talking]
# [05:37] <darobin> ... so it seems very reasonable to require
# [05:37] <joesteele_> #1 is far too ague to be actionable
# [05:37] <joesteele_> s/ague/vague/
# [05:37] <darobin> ... for item 3, if you've built a UA that uses specific components from an OS, it's pretty reasonable to ask that the APIs be published
# [05:37] <darobin> ... seems reasonable and encourages interop
# [05:38] <darobin> ... we can't require people to do this, but we can make it a condition of registration
# [05:38] <darobin> pal: not going to argue for solution
# [05:38] <joesteele_> I disagree that this would help interop in any significant way
# [05:38] <wseltzer> s/[very fast talking]/you to map from the playready API to the CDM API so everyone doesn't have to determine that independently/
# [05:38] <darobin> ... it would be goood for this group to have a plan
# [05:38] <darobin> ... it won't close itself
# [05:38] <darobin> paulc: I think I'd like to talk to some members of the TF about this
# [05:39] <darobin> ... may have to go to the Team to figure out how to handle this bug
# [05:39] <darobin> ... don't think there are action items on this
# [05:39] <markw> #joesteele_ Robert O'Calaghan provides a more detailed description of #1 earlier in the bug
# [05:39] <darobin> ... I am concerned that we will have to anticipate how the Director will want this bug handled or not handled
# [05:39] <MikeSmith> q+ I'm prepared to give initial feedback on what the team response would be
# [05:39] * Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [05:39] <darobin> ... if the group WONTFIXes this, we'll get an FO
# [05:40] <darobin> paulc: I think that MikeSmith's comments about this bug languishing are factual
# [05:40] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [05:40] <MikeSmith> q+ to say I'm prepared to give initial feedback on what the team response would be
# [05:40] * Zakim sees pal, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [05:41] <darobin> ACTION: Paul to report back about the plan for 20944 due 2013-12-15
# [05:41] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [05:41] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [05:41] <trackbot> Created ACTION-233 - Report back about the plan for 20944 due 2013-12-15 [on Paul Cotton - due 2013-11-21].
# [05:41] <darobin> ACTION-233 due 2013-12-15
# [05:41] * trackbot is changing the due date on ACTION-233.
# [05:41] <trackbot> Set ACTION-233 Report back about the plan for 20944 due 2013-12-15 due date to 2013-12-15.
# [05:41] <darobin> MikeSmith: God forbid that I ever were the Director
# [05:41] <darobin> ... but my response would be "what have you done to resolve this?"
# [05:41] <darobin> ... there hasn't been sufficient action on this bug
# [05:42] <darobin> ... it's not clear what we can do
# [05:42] <darobin> ... I'm giving my feedback early to gain time
# [05:42] <darobin> Topic: c) Bug 17202 - Explicitly document how keys are to be shared
# [05:42] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17202
# [05:43] * Quits: Tomoyuki (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:43] <joesteele_> q+
# [05:43] * Zakim sees pal, MikeSmith, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [05:43] <darobin> ddorwin: I think these bugs are open for reasons different from their original summaries
# [05:43] <MikeSmith> q-
# [05:43] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [05:43] <joesteele_> ack me
# [05:43] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [05:43] <joesteele_> My comments are in the bug
# [05:43] <darobin> ... I propose that we close these bugs and ask for use cases to address
# [05:44] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21869
# [05:44] <adrianba> q?
# [05:44] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [05:44] * Quits: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak) ("Ex-Chat")
# [05:45] <darobin> ddorwin: I suggest we take action agreed upon, close those bugs, and for unmet use cases open new bugs
# [05:45] * Quits: chen (~chen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [05:45] * adrianba pal, are you left on the queue from before?
# [05:45] <joesteele_> I do not want 21869 closed without action
# [05:45] * Quits: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak) (dsinger)
# [05:45] <darobin> paulc: are you suggesting we close these bugs and look at new proposals
# [05:45] <darobin> ddorwin: lots of discussion on the UCs behind the proposals
# [05:45] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
# [05:45] <darobin> ... I think we're down to no change necessary
# [05:45] <darobin> ... if something missing, he can file new bug
# [05:46] <adrianba> joe, the proposal is for you to file a new bug to track the action
# [05:46] <joesteele_> q+
# [05:46] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [05:46] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:46] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [05:46] <joesteele_> no -- the issue is that the spec does not explicitly say that sharing of keys is allowed -- it must say that
# [05:46] <darobin> ddorwin: I think that this is similar to before, close and people can open more specific bugs
# [05:46] <adrianba> joe, because the bugs have drifted from the original point
# [05:46] <joesteele_> or point me to the text that says it
# [05:47] <joesteele_> I am tired of opening bugs to say the same thing -- key sharing is a requirement
# [05:47] <darobin> paulc: suggesting we can just action this bug but it says new — is there a concrete proposal that we have already adopted?
# [05:47] * Quits: silvia1 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [05:47] <darobin> ... I understand your point on the first bug but not on the second
# [05:47] <darobin> ddorwin: I have gone through those many pages recently, but there's no actionable item in the summary — don't know what to do
# [05:48] <joesteele_> I need clarity on the CDMs ability to store keys -- that is the title of the bug
# [05:48] <joesteele_> what needs clarification?
# [05:48] <darobin> adrianba: do we have spec text proposed? ddorwin said no. So get spec text from the person who wants the spec changes
# [05:48] <adrianba> q?
# [05:48] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [05:48] <darobin> paulc: okay, let's do these bugs one at a time
# [05:48] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17202
# [05:48] * Quits: gwm (~gwm@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:48] <paulc> see Joe proposal for 17202: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0022.html
# [05:49] <joesteele_> I am fine with closing 17202 -- Davids solution made sense to me
# [05:49] <paulc> ack pal
# [05:49] * Zakim sees joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [05:49] <adrianba> ack joe
# [05:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [05:50] <darobin> [group argues about what joesteele_ meant on IRC]
# [05:50] * Quits: mark_vickers (~mav@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [05:50] <joesteele_> q+
# [05:50] * Zakim sees joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [05:50] * Quits: cyril (~cyril@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:50] <darobin> [ongoing IRC exegesis]
# [05:51] * Joins: mark_vickers (~mav@public.cloak)
# [05:51] <darobin> joesteele_: for 17202 ddorwin pointed out that a UC could be solved by framing a player @@ okay to close with no change to spec
# [05:51] * darobin couldn't hear really well
# [05:51] <darobin> paulc: objection to closing?
# [05:52] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17202#c3
# [05:52] * Quits: yosuke (~yosuke@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:52] <darobin> The editors will take into consideration the unrelated in the above link
# [05:52] * Quits: hoyang1 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [05:52] * Quits: Marcus_Altman (~Marcus_Altman@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:53] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [05:53] * Joins: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak)
# [05:53] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Shenzhen
# [05:53] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [05:53] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [05:53] <darobin> paulc: is that wording in c3 or other discussion?
# [05:53] <darobin> ddorwin: mostly c3, but I will be sure not to break his UC
# [05:53] * Quits: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:54] <darobin> ddorwin: in summary I don't think we want to share content keys between sessions
# [05:54] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [05:54] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Shenzhen
# [05:54] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [05:54] <darobin> ... joesteele_ wants to share the key hierarchy
# [05:54] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [05:54] * Quits: igarashi (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:54] <darobin> ... I will try to specify that the former is not allowed, while allowing the latter
# [05:54] <joesteele_> yes -- I want to share the key hierarchy -- not the content key
# [05:54] <joesteele_> I can't hear you guys anymore BTW
# [05:54] <darobin> Topic: p) Bug 21869 - Need clarity on stored keys for CDMs
# [05:55] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Shenzhen
# [05:55] <Zakim> Shenzhen is being disconnected
# [05:55] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [05:55] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21869
# [05:55] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Shenzhen
# [05:55] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [05:55] <Zakim> -joesteele_
# [05:55] <Zakim> +joesteele_
# [05:55] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [05:55] * Quits: ChristianFuhrhop2 (~christianfuhrhop@public.cloak) ("Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de")
# [05:55] * adrianba joe, we're going to break for an hour
# [05:55] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [05:56] * Quits: giuseppep (~giuseppep@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [05:56] * adrianba and hopefully the phone will stay connected
# [05:56] <darobin> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [05:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, darobin
# [05:56] * wseltzer rrsagent, make minutes
# [05:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html wseltzer
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# [05:57] <joesteele_> ok -- you guys dropped me. I will try ti dial back in
# [05:57] <Zakim> -joesteele_
# [05:57] <Zakim> HTML_WG()8:00PM has ended
# [05:57] <Zakim> Attendees were Shenzhen, joesteele_
# [05:57] * wseltzer joesteele_ we're off for lunch
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# [05:57] <joesteele_> cya later!
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# [05:57] * wseltzer joesteele_ , back in an hour
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# [07:01] <joesteele_> Zakim, code?
# [07:01] <Zakim> the conference code is hidden, joesteele_
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# [07:04] <joesteele_> Zakim, code?
# [07:04] <Zakim> the conference code is hidden, joesteele_
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# [07:06] <adrianba> ScribeNick: adrianba
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# [07:06] <adrianba> Scribe+ Adrian_Bateman
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# [07:07] <adrianba> zakim, call Shenzhen
# [07:07] <Zakim> sorry, adrianba, I don't know what conference this is
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# [07:08] * adrianba joe, we're just getting the call sorted out
# [07:08] <joesteele_> ok
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# [07:08] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call shenzhen
# [07:08] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I don't know what conference this is
# [07:08] <denis> zakim, this will be html
# [07:08] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, denis
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# [07:09] <denis> zakim, this will be HTML_WG
# [07:09] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, denis
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# [07:09] <MikeSmith> zakim, list
# [07:09] <Zakim> I see Team_(webperf)05:37Z, AB_ABW3()12:00AM, Team_(indie-ui)06:02Z, Team_(crypto)00:35Z, Team_(svg)06:02Z, UW_MdCap()7:00PM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15
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# [07:09] <Zakim> ... minutes
# [07:10] * Joins: yuka_o (~yuka_o@public.cloak)
# [07:10] * Quits: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:10] * dsinger_ is now known as dsinger
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# [07:11] <denis> zakim, this will be html
# [07:11] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, denis
# [07:11] <denis> zakim, this will be HTML_WG
# [07:11] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, denis
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# [07:14] <MikeSmith> zakim, list
# [07:14] <Zakim> I see Team_(webperf)05:37Z, AB_ABW3()12:00AM, Team_(indie-ui)06:02Z, Team_(crypto)00:35Z, Team_(svg)06:02Z, UW_MdCap()7:00PM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15
# [07:14] <Zakim> ... minutes
# [07:14] <MikeSmith> zakim, this is HTML_WG
# [07:14] <Zakim> MikeSmith, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be HTML_WG".
# [07:14] <Ralph> zakim, this will be html
# [07:14] <Zakim> ok, Ralph; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start 15 minutes ago
# [07:15] <denis> zakim, call Shenzhen
# [07:15] <Zakim> ok, denis; the call is being made
# [07:15] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
# [07:15] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [07:15] <denis> zakim, code?
# [07:15] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), denis
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# [07:15] <MikeSmith> thank you Ralph very much
# [07:15] * Ralph nods and exits stage left
# [07:15] * Parts: Ralph (rswick@public.cloak) (Ralph)
# [07:15] <Zakim> + +1.503.264.aaaa - is perhaps Wayne_Carr
# [07:15] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [07:15] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, pointer
# [07:15] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-irc#T06-15-58
# [07:15] <denis> zakim, call Shenzhen
# [07:15] <Zakim> ok, denis; the call is being made
# [07:15] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [07:15] <Zakim> +joesteele_
# [07:16] <glenn__> zakim, please call shenzhen
# [07:16] <Zakim> ok, glenn__; the call is being made
# [07:16] <Zakim> +Shenzhen.a
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# [07:16] <denis> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [07:16] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), Wayne_Carr, joesteele_, Shenzhen.a (muted)
# [07:16] <denis> zakim, unmute Shenzhen
# [07:16] <Zakim> Shenzhen was not muted, denis
# [07:16] <glenn__> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [07:16] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen, Wayne_Carr, joesteele_, Shenzhen.a (muted)
# [07:16] <adrianba> zakim, unmute shenzhen.a
# [07:16] <Zakim> Shenzhen.a should no longer be muted
# [07:16] <Zakim> -joesteele_
# [07:16] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [07:16] <glenn__> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [07:17] <Zakim> On the phone I see Wayne_Carr, Shenzhen.a
# [07:17] <Zakim> -Shenzhen.a
# [07:17] <Zakim> +joesteele_
# [07:17] <glenn__> zakim, pleaes call shenzhen
# [07:17] <Zakim> I don't understand 'pleaes call shenzhen', glenn__
# [07:17] <adrianba> TOPIC: Bug 17673 - Define Initialization Data for implementations that choose
# [07:17] * Quits: JonathanJ (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [07:17] <adrianba> to support the ISO Base Media File Format
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# [07:17] <glenn__> zakim, please call shenzhen
# [07:17] <Zakim> ok, glenn__; the call is being made
# [07:17] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [07:17] <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673
# [07:17] <adrianba> paulc: we had some action items on johnsim to work on corner cases and to draft a proposal
# [07:18] <adrianba> ... i don't think we've seen any action - what do we do?
# [07:18] <glenn__> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [07:18] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen, Wayne_Carr, joesteele_
# [07:18] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [07:18] <adrianba> ddorwin: there are two models for this
# [07:18] <adrianba> ... for bmff, cenc is one of the possible modes of encryption
# [07:18] <adrianba> ... but others could be
# [07:18] <glenn__> zakim, call shenzhen
# [07:18] <Zakim> ok, glenn__; the call is being made
# [07:18] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [07:18] <adrianba> ... we're not putting data into initdata the way the iso bmff spec is written
# [07:19] <denis> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [07:19] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen, Wayne_Carr, joesteele_
# [07:19] <adrianba> ... the target is cenc because it is easier for the main use cases
# [07:19] <adrianba> ... but this isn't as flexible
# [07:19] <adrianba> ... would like to have a discussion and move forward
# [07:19] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [07:19] <adrianba> dsinger: i need a little education on the problem
# [07:19] <Zakim> -joesteele_
# [07:19] <adrianba> ... if we said initdata is sinf followed by any pssh then we would have every thing
# [07:20] <Zakim> +joesteele_
# [07:20] * Quits: kazho (~kazho@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:20] <adrianba> ... there are other things in sinf that you might want even in cenc case
# [07:20] <adrianba> q?
# [07:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [07:20] <denis> Zakim, call Shenzhen
# [07:20] <Zakim> ok, denis; the call is being made
# [07:20] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [07:20] <adrianba> ddorwin: i'm not an iso expert but i believe the problem is pssh don't always appear with sinf?
# [07:21] <adrianba> dsinger: i'm suggesting you get the scheme information inside the sinf
# [07:21] <adrianba> ... it may be empty with cenc sometimes
# [07:21] <adrianba> ... you could say get sinf if not empty and then pssh
# [07:21] <adrianba> ... i think this covers everything
# [07:22] <adrianba> dsinger: [quickly describes the moov box]
# [07:22] <adrianba> ... the data starts with one time initialisation
# [07:22] <adrianba> ... pssh might appear with the initialisation or later in the fragment
# [07:22] <adrianba> ... today the API returns the concatenated PSSH since the beginning
# [07:23] <adrianba> q+
# [07:23] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [07:23] <adrianba> ... i'm saying prepend that with SINF
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# [07:23] <adrianba> ddorwin: you're proposing to always append pssh to the sinf
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# [07:24] <adrianba> paulc: do we know where this belongs in the spec?
# [07:24] <adrianba> ddorwin: yes, the BMFF section
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# [07:24] <adrianba> markw: my recollection of the history was that we went through the exercise of describing it with sinf
# [07:24] <adrianba> ... and we found some problems and then we were talking about going back to pssh
# [07:25] <adrianba> ... henri asks the question of why we need to support formats other than CENC
# [07:25] <adrianba> ... he wanted justification for other formats
# [07:25] <adrianba> q?
# [07:25] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [07:26] <ddorwin> "…it sounds like using |sinf| might also be incompatible with SampleGroups. This means that supporting other scheme types limits our ability to support features of specific scheme types."
# [07:26] <ddorwin> ^ from the bug
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# [07:26] <paulc> ack adrian
# [07:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [07:27] <pal_> adrianb: one option (see david singer), find the sinf box and then, if cenc, append pssh box
# [07:27] <pal_> ... and use the result as init data
# [07:28] <pal_> ... does the implementation need to keep sinf if future pssh are found
# [07:28] <pal_> ... initidata is fired everytime pssh is found
# [07:29] <pal_> davids: need to keep sinf around
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# [07:30] <pal_> adrianb: second option, UA parses sinf. if cenc, provide pssh only. if other, TBD in future specification
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# [07:30] <pal_> ... initdata is sequence of boxes
# [07:31] * Quits: dopi (~dopi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:31] <markw> q+
# [07:31] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
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# [07:33] <pal_> davids: propose that, everytime sinf is found, append any pssh and provide as initdata. later in the file, if pssh are found, just provide those as init data
# [07:33] <adrianba> q?
# [07:33] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [07:34] <adrianba> ddorwin: we are saying the first needkey event would have a different set of boxes?
# [07:34] <adrianba> dsinger: yes?
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# [07:34] <paulc> ack markw
# [07:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [07:34] <adrianba> markw: i think one of the things mentioned in the bug is that could be a sinf in each track?
# [07:34] <pal_> markw: what about one sinf in each track?
# [07:34] <adrianba> dsinger: yes, but also pssh in each track
# [07:35] <adrianba> markw: so there could be multiple sinfs not just one
# [07:35] * hober is in a maze of twisty media acronyms, all alike.
# [07:35] <adrianba> ... but we haven't addressed henri's question
# [07:35] <adrianba> dsinger: i don't understand how you can decrypt the data without the SINF
# [07:36] <adrianba> markw: you don't have to have the all the data to decrypt
# [07:36] <adrianba> dsinger: so why pass the PSSH at all?
# [07:36] <adrianba> markw: you might get the initdata from another source
# [07:36] <adrianba> dsinger: but there are systems that need SINF data
# [07:37] <adrianba> dsinger: i think the mechanism of getting all the SINF with a non-empty encrpytion atom
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# [07:38] <adrianba> ... and adding PSSH will give you everything you need and often SINF will not be included for CENC
# [07:38] <adrianba> [some discussion about whether to limit to CENC or more open]
# [07:38] <adrianba> s/or more/or be more/
# [07:39] <adrianba> dsinger: think it should be possible to use this with fairplay
# [07:39] <adrianba> pal: is there a proposal on the table?
# [07:39] <adrianba> q+
# [07:39] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [07:39] <paulc> ack adr
# [07:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [07:40] <dsinger> Suggestion: given a movie atom, give me the sinf boxes from each track (possibly optimized to say if it has a non-empty scheme information box), plus the pssh boxes (if any); for a movie fragment, give me pssh boxes (if any).
# [07:40] <silvia> I ran MediaStreamTrack.getSources(function(result) {console.log(result);}); in the console of chrome31
# [07:41] * silvia oops, sorry, wrong channel
# [07:41] <dsinger> That allows the API to confirm the scheme type, the original format, and so on, and is quite general.
# [07:41] * darobin silvia: could've fooled me :)
# [07:41] <dsinger> It gives the cenc 'track encryption' box when present.
# [07:41] * hober was in fact fooled
# [07:43] <ddorwin> q+
# [07:43] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [07:43] <paulc> ack dd
# [07:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [07:44] <adrianba> ddorwin: we think the current text is buggy but i don't remember the details
# [07:44] <ddorwin> it sounds like using |sinf| might also be incompatible with SampleGroups. This means that supporting other scheme types limits our ability to support features of specific scheme types.
# [07:44] * Quits: Jirka (~jirka@public.cloak) (Jirka)
# [07:45] <adrianba> [discussion about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673#c10]
# [07:45] <adrianba> dsinger: this about a different topic
# [07:45] <adrianba> ... this is a related but different problem
# [07:45] <adrianba> ... you can set-up defaults at the beginning of the file
# [07:45] <pal_> q+
# [07:45] * Zakim sees pal_ on the speaker queue
# [07:46] <adrianba> ... you can also include sample groups
# [07:46] <adrianba> ... as you walk down the file you can have data that belongs to different groups
# [07:46] <adrianba> ... the first version of CENC used that
# [07:46] <pal_> q-
# [07:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [07:46] <adrianba> ... so you can have runs of samples using different groups
# [07:47] <adrianba> ... later, you wanted to introduce new sample group descriptions after you started the movie
# [07:47] <adrianba> ... in the latest version you can include group descriptions in later fragments
# [07:47] <adrianba> ... if we don't get the sample groups out later then we won't be able to use them
# [07:47] <adrianba> ... and the question is how to handle this
# [07:47] <adrianba> ... question is how to handle sample groups later in the move
# [07:48] <adrianba> paulc: do we agree that we should put comment 10 into a separate bug?
# [07:48] <adrianba> dsinger: the second half, yes
# [07:48] <markw> q+
# [07:48] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [07:48] <adrianba> paulc: and the solution?
# [07:49] <adrianba> dsinger: i need to refresh my understanding of the boxes - maybe you don't need this at the api level
# [07:49] <adrianba> markw: the assumption is there is sufficient information in PSSH to know what keys it needs to fetch
# [07:49] <adrianba> ... for that PSSH is sufficient
# [07:49] <adrianba> ... you don't need this in the initdata
# [07:49] <adrianba> paulc: still think this is an orthogonal bug - resolve it that way
# [07:50] <adrianba> ddorwin: sounds like this is resolved
# [07:50] <adrianba> dsinger: can markw write a response to comment 10?
# [07:50] <adrianba> markw: yes
# [07:51] <adrianba> paulc: and we need to tell johnsim that his actions are done
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# [07:51] <adrianba> adrianba: think we have the general outline - might need some help
# [07:51] <adrianba> dsinger: happy to help with editing
# [07:51] * Quits: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak) (dsinger)
# [07:52] <adrianba> ddorwin: 21869 - we will have to revisit
# [07:52] <adrianba> ddorwin: 17750 - adrian has done work on close - will need to revisit in telcons
# [07:53] <adrianba> ddorwin: 21798 - recommendation for media key error codes - waiting for feedback
# [07:53] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21798
# [07:53] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17750
# [07:53] <adrianba> ... feedback is coming in on mailing list
# [07:53] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21869
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# [07:53] <joesteele_> I left a comment for 21869 -- you should be able to close it I think
# [07:53] <adrianba> ddorwin: 18515 - think this would be good for the broader group
# [07:53] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18515
# [07:53] <joesteele_> I had not read the latest section 8.2
# [07:53] <adrianba> TOPIC: Bug 18515 - Provide more details on behavior of the media element when
# [07:53] <adrianba> the key for an encrypted block is not available
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# [07:54] <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18515
# [07:54] <adrianba> q+
# [07:54] * Zakim sees markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [07:54] <adrianba> ddorwin: not clear what to do here, for example if you have the data from the network but are blocked for some reason
# [07:54] * Quits: danielkim (~mz_modeltaxi@public.cloak) ("")
# [07:54] <markw> q-
# [07:54] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [07:55] <ddorwin> ack adrianba
# [07:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [07:55] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [07:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
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# [07:57] <adrianba> adrianba: there is an action on jerry to make a proposal for this
# [07:57] <adrianba> ... we've been discussing at microsoft
# [07:58] <adrianba> ... [discussion of why we want to solve this problem]
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# [07:58] <adrianba> ... the beginning of the proposal might be to update the waiting event to include a reason for why the media element is waiting
# [07:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [07:58] <adrianba> ... if it is something other than waiting for data from the network
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# [07:59] <adrianba> TOPIC: Bug 23619 - Drop or change MediaKeyError constant prefix
# [07:59] <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23619
# [08:00] <adrianba> ddorwin: proposal to use strings instead of numeric constants
# [08:00] <adrianba> ... seen this for other places but not for error codes
# [08:00] <adrianba> ... if anyone has guidance on this it would be good to hear
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# [08:00] <denis> zakim, who's making noise?
# [08:00] <adrianba> ... we haven't seen other APIs use enums for error codes
# [08:00] <Zakim> denis, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shenzhen (59%)
# [08:01] <adrianba> ddorwin: i could talk to Alex directly
# [08:01] <adrianba> paulc: nobody from the TAG is here
# [08:01] <MarkS> zakim, [IPcaller] is stevefaulkner
# [08:01] <Zakim> +stevefaulkner; got it
# [08:01] <adrianba> paulc: we discussed 7 comments in detail
# [08:01] <adrianba> ... 4 of them are going to be closed
# [08:01] <adrianba> ... there are a bunch still to be worked on
# [08:01] <adrianba> ... sounds like 10+ bugs still open after this
# [08:02] <adrianba> ... do we want to spend more time making progress here?
# [08:02] <adrianba> ... we have all tomorrow afternoon
# [08:02] <joesteele_> did you see my comment about closing 21869? Or was there another reason to keep it open
# [08:03] * Joins: dsinger_ (~dsinger@public.cloak)
# [08:04] <ddorwin> agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda#Agenda
# [08:04] * Quits: saki (~saki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:04] * hober loves that w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/ and w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ both exist and are different things
# [08:05] <joesteele_> I will not be available that late tomorrow -- are there any more issues you need my input on?
# [08:05] * Joins: saki (~saki@public.cloak)
# [08:05] <ddorwin> Thanks joesteele_. I just mentioned it in the room.
# [08:05] <adrianba> paulc: we'll organise a session after lunch
# [08:06] * Quits: danny_ (~Danny@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:06] * darobin silvia: we're doing CR bugs
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# [08:06] <adrianba> ScribeNick: edoyle
# [08:06] <Zakim> -joesteele_
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# [08:06] <ddorwin> joesteele_, nothing stands out. Thanks for attending!
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# [08:07] <SteveF> ok
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# [08:07] <edoyle> Next topic: Status of CR bugs on HTML5 and Canvas2D
# [08:08] <SteveF> Bug 20987 - The main element could do with some more examples
# [08:08] <SteveF> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20987
# [08:08] <edoyle> TOPIC: Status of CR bugs on HTML5 and Canvas2D
# [08:09] * edoyle how would i do a 'subtopic'?
# [08:09] <SteveF> This is editorial and should not be blocking anything (in my opinion)
# [08:09] <edoyle> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21579
# [08:09] * Quits: markw (~markw@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:11] <edoyle> SteveF: will review and resolve 21579 within the next week
# [08:11] * Joins: ddorwin (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [08:11] <edoyle> its a matter of clarifying what's in the spec (nothing controversial)
# [08:11] <edoyle> SteveF to provide the text
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# [08:12] <MarkS> ACTION: stevefaulkner to resolve bug 21579 and will provide spec text
# [08:12] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [08:12] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [08:12] <trackbot> Error finding 'stevefaulkner'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
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# [08:12] <SteveF> my nick is SteveF
# [08:13] <MarkS> ACTION: stevef to resolve bug 21579 and will provide spec text https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21579
# [08:13] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [08:13] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [08:13] <trackbot> Error finding 'stevef'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [08:13] <slightlyoff> apologies for not seeing the ping earlier...ddorwin how can I help?
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# [08:14] <SteveF> ACTION: SteveF to resolve bug 21579 and will provide spec text https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21579
# [08:14] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [08:14] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [08:14] <trackbot> Error finding 'SteveF'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [08:14] <MarkS> ACTION: Steve to resolve bug 21579 and will provide spec text https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21579
# [08:14] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [08:14] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [08:14] <trackbot> Created ACTION-234 - Resolve bug 21579 and will provide spec text https://www.w3.org/bugs/public/show_bug.cgi?id=21579 [on Steve Faulkner - due 2013-11-21].
# [08:15] <edoyle> MarkS: those were the 2 assigned to SteveF, there are 3 remaining ones that janina will take care of
# [08:16] <edoyle> (going through this list by assignee: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=REOPENED&component=HTML5%20spec&keywords=CR)
# [08:16] * Quits: nkic (~nkic@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:16] <Zakim> -stevefaulkner
# [08:17] <edoyle> hober: 18728 is editorial, nothing to block CR
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# [08:18] <edoyle> ACTION: hober to resolve 18728 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19728
# [08:18] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [08:18] * RRSAgent records action 9
# [08:18] <trackbot> Created ACTION-235 - Resolve 18728 https://www.w3.org/bugs/public/show_bug.cgi?id=19728 [on Edward O'Connor - due 2013-11-21].
# [08:19] <edoyle> next is i18n issue: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16970
# [08:19] <edoyle> hober: requires testing to know what we should be specifying
# [08:20] <edoyle> ...probably the most useful thing to make progress on this bug is feedback from i18n
# [08:21] <edoyle> r12a: addison can help out here
# [08:22] <edoyle> paulc: so we need a test case demonstrating the problem and then interop report
# [08:22] <edoyle> r12a to ask for such a test
# [08:23] <edoyle> ...so we can know whether to change implementations or spec (or both)
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# [08:24] <MarkS> ED: translate attribute. looks like we need a test. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23208
# [08:25] <MarkS> RI: I think we need more clarification in the spec. I think you agree that there would be named attributes that would not be translatable. That is what I am asking for here.
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# [08:25] <MarkS> ...the following attributes are translatable attributes
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# [08:26] <MarkS> PC: what is missing is anything not on this list. is that what you would like to see?
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# [08:28] <MarkS> RI: translate set to no: you don't translate the attribute value either.
# [08:28] <MarkS> PC: the following attributes are translatable when the parent has translate set to yes
# [08:28] <MarkS> ...make the corner cases explicit
# [08:29] <MarkS> RI: question about the translatable attributes contained in that list
# [08:29] <MarkS> PC: orthogonal question. would require a new bug
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# [08:31] <MikeSmith> trackbot, reload
# [08:31] <MikeSmith> trackbot, status
# [08:31] * trackbot knows about these 35 users: Glenn, Adrian, Robin, Michael, Paul, Erika, Steve, James, Ian, Lachlan, Kris, Philippe, Larry, Matthew, Shawn, Ben, Jay, Joshue, Edward, Frank, Julian, Gregory, Sam, Mark, Janina, Doug, Richard, Cynthia, David, Henri, Jerry, Michael[tm], Manu, Maciej, Everett
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# [08:32] <MarkS> ACTION: erica to resolve bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23208 as discussed
# [08:32] * RRSAgent records action 10
# [08:32] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [08:32] <trackbot> Error finding 'erica'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [08:32] <MarkS> ACTION: erika to resolve bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23208 as discussed
# [08:32] * RRSAgent records action 11
# [08:32] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [08:32] <trackbot> Created ACTION-236 - Resolve bug https://www.w3.org/bugs/public/show_bug.cgi?id=23208 as discussed [on Erika Doyle Navara - due 2013-11-21].
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# [08:33] <MarkS> ED: https://www.w3.org/bugs/public/show_bug.cgi?id=22326 bulk of conversation is happening on WHATWG
# [08:33] <MarkS> ...changing the default behavior of the dir attribute. isolation instead of embedding behavior.
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# [08:34] * hober waves at mjs
# [08:34] <MarkS> ...seems like good evidence that making this change should be good and should not have any negative implications.
# [08:34] <mjs> hello hober!
# [08:34] * mjs oops, is there a meeting happening right now?
# [08:34] * mjs did not mean to add noise
# [08:34] * darobin oooh, mjs!
# [08:34] <MarkS> ...i made the change and put it to the public list for review on WHATWG
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# [08:35] <hober> s/hello hober!//
# [08:35] <MarkS> RI: there was a request to tackle <bdo> as well (isolation) which involves the same thing. do we need a separate bug for that?
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# [08:36] <MarkS> RB: I think your comment in the bug is enough to add the bdo change. email public-html
# [08:37] <edoyle> Next are robin's 5 ruby-related bugs
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# [08:37] <edoyle> ...these will be addressed by the ruby extension spec.
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# [08:38] <edoyle> bugs 19251 through 19255
# [08:39] <edoyle> these should all be fixed by end of yar
# [08:39] <edoyle> s/yar/year
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# [08:39] <edoyle> robin to update these bugs with an indication that they are being addressed by ruby extension sepc
# [08:39] <edoyle> s/sepc/spec
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# [08:40] <edoyle> Next are the bugs on travis
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# [08:41] <edoyle> travis to check if these should be fixed in time for CR
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# [08:42] <edoyle> travis to look into this. it may be a non-issue for CR due to a cascade of at-risk feature removal
# [08:44] <edoyle> (in reference to 16957, 16959, 16960)
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# [09:00] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
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# [09:08] <jcraig> Zakim, passcode?
# [09:08] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), jcraig
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# [09:09] <Zakim> +James_Craig
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# [09:14] <denis> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [09:14] <Zakim> On the phone I see Wayne_Carr, James_Craig
# [09:14] * darobin test, please ignore
# [09:14] <denis> zakim, call Shenzhen
# [09:14] <Zakim> ok, denis; the call is being made
# [09:14] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
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# [09:14] <jcraig> Zakim, unmute sh
# [09:14] <Zakim> Shenzhen was not muted, jcraig
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# [09:18] <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [09:18] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen, Wayne_Carr, James_Craig
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# [09:19] <glenn__> scribenick: glenn
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# [09:19] <glenn__> intros of guests from WAI
# [09:20] <hober> scribenick: glenn__
# [09:20] <glenn__> s/WAI/WAI and pF/
# [09:20] * jcraig Can't hear much of what's going on in the room (except MichaelC is clear). Please ping me via IRC if needed.
# [09:20] * MarkS thanks james. will do.
# [09:20] <glenn__> paulc: thanks to janina for participating today
# [09:20] <glenn__> ... made a list of possible discussion items
# [09:21] <glenn__> ... (1) 3 A10Y CR bugs
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# [09:21] <jcraig> s/A10y/A11y/
# [09:21] <glenn__> jcraig: tnx
# [09:21] * MichaelC is right by a phone
# [09:22] <glenn__> paulc: relationship between DOM3 and DOM4
# [09:22] * MichaelC but looks like it's the only one in the room
# [09:22] <glenn__> ... believes this answered off list
# [09:22] * jcraig glenn__ np
# [09:22] <glenn__> paulc: (4) status of canvas CR spec
# [09:23] <glenn__> ... draw custom focus ring
# [09:23] <glenn__> ... one request to extend
# [09:23] <glenn__> ... will discuss tomorrow morning
# [09:23] <glenn__> ... probably best handled in canvas session
# [09:23] <glenn__> janina: would like more time probably for coming to conclusion, at least no earlier than next THU
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# [09:24] <glenn__> paulc: no problem with that
# [09:24] <jcraig> could someone clarify scribe comment "relationship between DOM3 and DOM4"
# [09:24] <glenn__> jcraig: no
# [09:24] <MarkS> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
# [09:25] <glenn__> paulc: 18574
# [09:25] <glenn__> hober: 19277
# [09:25] <MarkS> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277
# [09:25] <glenn__> hober: summarize bug...
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# [09:25] <glenn__> ... hidden attribute
# [09:26] <glenn__> ... rendering sections defines as sugar on top of display: none
# [09:26] <glenn__> ... several interrelated problems
# [09:26] <glenn__> ... in common style sheets ... div.foo
# [09:26] <glenn__> ... might style .foo as display: flex, but if hidden present, wouldn't hide
# [09:26] <glenn__> ... change default for hidden to display: none !important
# [09:27] <glenn__> ... but other problems with this
# [09:27] <glenn__> ... thinking of resolving according to Boris' comment 5
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# [09:27] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19277#c16
# [09:27] <glenn__> ... should be able to describe in terms of existing features
# [09:27] <glenn__> ... also use cases where authors should be able to use visibility: hidden
# [09:28] <glenn__> ... inclined to resolve as Boris suggests
# [09:28] <glenn__> ... i.e., as display: none
# [09:28] <glenn__> ... thinks it will resolve both of these bugs (18574 and 19277)
# [09:28] * Parts: hoyang1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (hoyang1)
# [09:28] <jcraig> +1 to Boris comment #16 item 2, "No CSS box (e.g. display:none) means no accessible object."
# [09:29] <jcraig> so this is somewhat of a non-issue in most user agents
# [09:29] <glenn__> paulc: janina?
# [09:29] <jcraig> (for accessibility)
# [09:29] <glenn__> janina: appears this was conflated with discussion "issue 204"
# [09:29] <glenn__> ... maybe related (or not)... needs clarity
# [09:29] <jcraig> however, I agree that the mapping in HTML should be move from "strong" semantics table to the "weak" semantics table. b/c
# [09:30] * Parts: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) (shepazu)
# [09:30] <glenn__> ... is there a relation between this solution and where "issue 204" ended up?
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# [09:30] <glenn__> ... wants to check with ARIA subteam in PF
# [09:30] <jcraig> currently WebKit is the only UA that correctly implements: <div hidden aria-hidden="false">exposed to accessibility API, but not rendered visually</div>
# [09:30] <glenn__> ... need to be careful
# [09:30] <glenn__> hober: yes, related to 204
# [09:31] <glenn__> ... need to make sure that this resolution doesn't affect 204 resolution
# [09:31] <jcraig> q+ to have someone read my comments started with the +1 to boris
# [09:31] * Zakim sees jcraig on the speaker queue
# [09:31] <glenn__> janina: probably could take up on ARIA call this coming week
# [09:32] <glenn__> paulc: sounds like reasonable plan
# [09:32] <glenn__> ... reference to comment #15, janina takes away, discuss, etc, inform hober
# [09:32] <glenn__> janina: sounds ok
# [09:33] <paulc> ack jc
# [09:33] <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to have someone read my comments started with the +1 to boris
# [09:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:33] <jcraig> currently WebKit is the only UA that correctly implements: <div hidden aria-hidden="false">exposed to accessibility API, but not rendered visually</div>
# [09:33] <glenn__> jcraig: comment about move from "strong" to "weak" semantics table
# [09:33] * kurosawa_ is now known as kurosawa
# [09:34] <glenn__> ... do agree it can be resolved
# [09:34] <glenn__> hober: describing 18574
# [09:35] <jcraig> and boris is absolutely right that "No CSS box (e.g. display:none) means no accessible object." (unless overriden with aria-hidden="false")
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# [09:35] <glenn__> cynthia: can we do in TF on THU?
# [09:36] <glenn__> janina: yes
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# [09:37] <glenn__> paulc: 19277 and 18574... plan to discuss on ARIA call, also agenda item for THU TF call
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# [09:37] <glenn__> ... attempt to get consensus on Boris' comment
# [09:37] <glenn__> paulc: third item 23380
# [09:38] <glenn__> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23380
# [09:38] <glenn__> janina: recent bug
# [09:38] <glenn__> ... due diligence matter
# [09:39] <glenn__> ... get right people to handle soon...
# [09:39] <glenn__> paulc: ARIA related
# [09:39] <glenn__> ... assigned to SteveF
# [09:39] <glenn__> paulc: janina to confer with SteveF
# [09:39] <glenn__> ... wants deterministic status
# [09:40] <glenn__> paulc: final item - image description
# [09:40] <glenn__> ... when HTML5 came out of LC to CR
# [09:40] <glenn__> ... a few contentious issues kept in WG
# [09:41] <glenn__> ... one was definition of longdesc
# [09:41] <glenn__> ... chairs proposed something called plan 2014
# [09:41] <silvia> q?
# [09:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [09:41] <glenn__> ... delegated to A11Y TF
# [09:41] <glenn__> ... the dev of an extension spec
# [09:41] <glenn__> ... a significant success
# [09:41] <glenn__> ... what are plans going foward
# [09:42] <glenn__> janina: have gone through LC on spec published early 2013
# [09:42] <glenn__> ... continuing to work on comments
# [09:42] <glenn__> ... finalizing responses to comments
# [09:42] <glenn__> ... mostly editoria.
# [09:42] <glenn__> s/editoria/editorial/
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# [09:42] <glenn__> ... but probably won't come to unanimity
# [09:43] <glenn__> ... due to polarization in a minority community
# [09:43] <glenn__> ... some have asked to be more prescriptive
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# [09:43] <glenn__> ... e.g. how longdesc is discoverable
# [09:43] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [09:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
# [09:43] <glenn__> ... don't want to be overly prescriptive on this now
# [09:44] <glenn__> ... left a lot up to UA
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# [09:44] <glenn__> ... how UA exposes is UA dependent
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# [09:44] <glenn__> ... have serious of tests and results
# [09:44] <glenn__> s/serious/series/
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# [09:45] <glenn__> ... on way to CR, not sure on CR duration or post-CR, e.g., whether to maintain as standalone spec
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# [09:45] <glenn__> ... or whether to ask to fold back into HTML5
# [09:45] <MarkS> -> https://rawgithub.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/master/html-longdesc/test-results.html Test results
# [09:45] <glenn__> ... perhaps ask WG to resolve
# [09:46] <glenn__> marks: good summary
# [09:46] <glenn__> ... getting consensus from TF about final responses
# [09:46] <glenn__> ... a few outstanding Qs but mostly straightforward
# [09:46] <glenn__> ... 22 tets
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# [09:46] <glenn__> s/tets/tests/
# [09:47] <glenn__> ... HTML testing TF invited to submit to github platform repo
# [09:47] <glenn__> paulc: plan 2014 shows paragraph about folding back in
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# [09:47] <glenn__> ... to identify date 3 months before completion of CR
# [09:48] <Zakim> -James_Craig
# [09:48] <glenn__> ... for which can identification extension specs to fold back into HTML5 spec
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# [09:48] <glenn__> ... A11Y TF took care of longdesc work with option to fold back into HTML5 spec
# [09:49] <glenn__> ... would require decision by WG, but process has worked well
# [09:49] <glenn__> ... could also take directly to REC, but chairs haven't looked at this yet
# [09:49] <glenn__> ... community has been waiting some time, so really looking to A11Y TF for guidance/recommendation
# [09:50] <glenn__> ... good example of using modularity/extensions to empower people to progress more rapidly than larger group
# [09:50] <glenn__> paulc: look forward to complation of AIs (janina)
# [09:50] <glenn__> ... taking breaks (sam also) until early Dec
# [09:51] <glenn__> paulc: only outstanding A11Y item is canvas, to deal with focus ring issues
# [09:51] <glenn__> ... to discuss tomorrow AM
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# [09:52] <glenn__> ... next segment is HTML5 testing
# [09:52] <glenn__> take 5mins break
# [09:52] <shan> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [09:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html shan
# [09:52] <MarkS> scribe: MarkS
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# [10:07] <MarkS> Topic: Testing and HTML5 Exit Criteria
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# [10:08] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/public-permissive-exit-criteria.html
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# [10:09] <MarkS> PC: Model CR Exit criteria. Rules for exiting CR stage. Looking for independent, interoperable implementations. Features that are well known, deployed and match the spec, we will assume good to go.
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# [10:10] <MarkS> ...went through HTML5 and Canvas spec at last F2F to identify sections we *thought* were interoperable.
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# [10:10] <MarkS> ...Overview of testing in view of CR document.
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# [10:11] <MarkS> ...either considerd interoperable, requires testing, at risk has tests, has implementations and has implementations and tests.
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# [10:11] <MarkS> RB: this key made sense at the time, looking back on it, we now know it probably does.'t
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# [10:12] <MarkS> ...it is a bit confusing.
# [10:12] * Parts: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [10:12] <MarkS> ...anything blue or yellow bar needs testing.
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# [10:13] <MarkS> ...if its not green it is not widely considered interop
# [10:13] <MarkS> ...there should probably be requires testing and does not have tests and req testing and does have tests.
# [10:13] <MarkS> ...i will most likely go through and update this document.
# [10:14] <MarkS> PC: eventually, the purple items will require tests and we will report on them to the director
# [10:14] <MarkS> ...the chairs have not produced a WG Decision on the original CfC
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# [10:14] <MarkS> ...in september we received feedback on 3 points. first was a bug report, chairs would like to see a decision on that bug
# [10:15] <MarkS> ...bug 18490
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# [10:16] <MarkS> ED: this bug we asked i18n if we could remove CR keyword, but the referencing bug is the one we talked about today.
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# [10:16] <MarkS> ...we are ready to go forward on this.
# [10:17] <MarkS> PC: is 22326 directly related to his issue?
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# [10:17] <MarkS> ED: don't know at this time.
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# [10:17] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18490#c14
# [10:18] <MarkS> Comment 14 indicates this bug is no longer blocking the CfC
# [10:18] <MarkS> PC: look at more recent research that have gone into testing this condition
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# [10:19] <MarkS> ...earlier this week, I asked erika, denis and robin to go through HTML5 test suite and look through TOC to identify places where we didn't have tests
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# [10:19] <MarkS> ...produced this list
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# [10:19] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Nov/0025.html
# [10:20] <MarkS> ED: went through the suite and identified sections that had NO tests. cross referenced with robin's chart
# [10:20] <MarkS> PC: this should help robin update his doc
# [10:20] <MarkS> ...this research doesn't included un-reviewed tests
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# [10:21] <MarkS> JG: their are thousands of un-reviewed tests
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# [10:21] <MarkS> RG: reviewing is a fair bit of work, sometimes more than writing the tests.
# [10:21] <MarkS> ...denis is working on reviewing tests
# [10:22] <MarkS> ...anyone who is considering writing tests should look for existing tests, then in non-reviewed tests to see if tests have already been written
# [10:22] <MarkS> ...lots of improvement on testing documentation.
# [10:23] <MarkS> ...canvas test suite is working again. improved test writing documentation
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# [10:23] <MarkS> JG: this came up in web apps as well, a tool for seeing which tests touch which specs (and where)
# [10:24] <MarkS> PC: robin, your recommendation on this? if that one bug was resolved, can chairs close this and issue a resolution?
# [10:25] <MarkS> ...can you take an action item to update this by dec?
# [10:26] <paulc> revision of http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit.html
# [10:26] <MarkS> ACTION: robin to give us a revised overview of testing document - in 4 weeks
# [10:26] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [10:26] * RRSAgent records action 12
# [10:26] <trackbot> Created ACTION-237 - Give us a revised overview of testing document - in 4 weeks [on Robin Berjon - due 2013-11-21].
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# [10:26] <darobin> ACTION-237 due 2013-12-4
# [10:26] * trackbot is changing the due date on ACTION-237.
# [10:26] <trackbot> Set ACTION-237 Give us a revised overview of testing document - in 4 weeks due date to 2013-12-04.
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# [10:27] <MarkS> PC: in the previous sessions, we now have a clear picture of CR bugs. it was 480 when robin came on board. with new editors, we've reduced that number to 20 or less.
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# [10:28] <MarkS> ...to get out of CR we need 3 things: no bugs, tests, and implementations for those places were we don't have tests that aren't satisfied by the exit criteria. No tests, we don't get out of CR.
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# [10:29] <MarkS> ...wanted to come out of this F2F with a better understanding of at least 2 of those.
# [10:29] <MarkS> ...implementation timing is harder to nail down.
# [10:29] <MarkS> ...no implementations, they will most likely get cut from 5.0 (stay in 5.1)
# [10:29] <MarkS> ...thanks to tobie, erika, denis etc for all this work.
# [10:30] <MarkS> ...need tests in order to prove implementations.
# [10:30] <MarkS> ...if we have a Spring meeting, major topic will be testing. may be the only reason. Web apps may do the same. Need to get the right people in the room to achieve this.
# [10:31] <MarkS> RI: i look at the overview document and see areas where I have submitted tests that indicate no tests. Are we going to update it...
# [10:31] <MarkS> RB: yes, we have a clear plan to do that.
# [10:31] <MarkS> PC: will have a discussion about canvas tomorrow.
# [10:32] <MarkS> M5: i will be able to show some canvas test results.
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# [10:33] <MarkS> TL: w3c testing fellowship from Facebook. Looking for testing coverage from members to extend my fellowship. If this is of interest to you or your company, please talk to me or Phillippe
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# [10:34] <Zakim> -Wayne_Carr
# [10:34] <MarkS> PC: motion to adjourn and reconvene tomorrow morning. We will start with Canvas, features at risk, Accessibility features....
# [10:34] <MarkS> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-11-Agenda
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# [10:35] <MarkS> expect to adjourn no later than 3PM tomorrow
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# [10:35] <MarkS> rrsagent, make minutes
# [10:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html MarkS
# [10:35] <denis> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [10:35] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen
# [10:35] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [10:36] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
# [10:36] <Zakim> Attendees were Shenzhen, +1.503.264.aaaa, joesteele_, Shenzhen.a, stevefaulkner, James_Craig
# [10:36] <MarkS> rrsagent, make minutes
# [10:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html MarkS
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# [10:36] <SteveF> darobin: groundhog day 'Editor's Draft 7 November 2013' less 青啤 more HTML编码 ;-)
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# [10:52] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/450185e45fde0f23d00b5d97ad500d5fdc50b76b
# [10:52] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master 450185e steve faulkner: fix hidden/aria-hidden...
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# [10:54] <MikeSmith> SteveF: :-)
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# [10:57] <SteveF> hober: i took https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574 as I have made a change to spec to hopefully resolve, if you want to keep change back :-)
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# [11:01] <SteveF> MikeSmith: working every angle to get robins arse into gear :-)
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# [11:15] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/985415ccc0d5ae13c0acc61d0dcbf3e50112c01e
# [11:15] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master 985415c steve faulkner: fix link to required in aria section...
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# [11:17] <SteveF> darobin: the audio is for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tER_2xmVlU
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# [13:04] <stommepoes> SteveF 青啤, trying to make us thirsty
# [13:05] <SteveF> stommepoes: always thirsty
# [13:05] <stommepoes> You *do* keep talking about this... false dichotomy of "drinking" and "coding"... haven't you heard of the Ballmer Peak?
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# [13:08] <stommepoes> see, now I'm seeing double stevefaulkner s
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# [23:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/a43f5fb21c05c159be980c9567bcaa59a49308f1
# [23:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/feature/whatwg a43f5fb ianh: [cgiow] (3) Change how dir='' works, from being an embedding to being an override, for better results on mixed-directionality sites. THIS IS A HIGH RISK CHANGE, EXPECT BREAKAGE. Please report breakage on the bug if it's higher than acceptable, so we can revert the change if necessary....
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# Session Close: Fri Nov 15 00:00:00 2013

The end :)