/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2013-11-15 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Nov 15 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [01:56] * MikeSmith is on his way but may be about 5 minutes late
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# [02:01] <paulc> trackbot, start meeting
# [02:01] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
# [02:01] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [02:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
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# [02:01] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
# [02:01] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()8:00PM scheduled to start now
# [02:01] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [02:01] <trackbot> Date: 15 November 2013
# [02:01] <paulc> rrsagent, make minutes
# [02:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
# [02:01] <paulc> zakim, what is the code?
# [02:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
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# [02:02] <Zakim> HTML_WG()8:00PM has now started
# [02:02] <paulc> zakim, phone shenzen
# [02:02] <Zakim> I am sorry, paulc; I do not know a number for shenzen
# [02:02] <Zakim> + +1.971.998.aaaa
# [02:03] <paulc> zakim, call Shenzhen
# [02:03] <Zakim> ok, paulc; the call is being made
# [02:03] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
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# [02:03] <paulc> Is there anyone else that is going to join the teleconfernce?
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# [02:10] <darobin> Zakim, this meeting spans midnight
# [02:10] <Zakim> I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight', darobin
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# [02:10] <darobin> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [02:10] <RRSAgent> ok, darobin; I will not start a new log at midnight
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# [02:27] <Travis> scribe: travis
# [02:27] <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
# [02:27] <paulc> Status of CfC on Canvas: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Oct/0009.html
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# [02:28] <paulc> Canvas CR features at risk: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-2dcontext-20121217/
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# [02:28] <Travis> paulc: Now looking at at-risk features in original canvas CR
# [02:28] <Travis> ... some folks mistook an at-risk wiki as normative
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# [02:29] <paulc> Editors draft with different features at risk: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/2dcontext/html5_canvas_CR/
# [02:29] <Travis> ... showing current editor's draft of canvas 2d w/ at-risk features
# [02:29] <Travis> ... path objects + hit regions (in the original)
# [02:29] <Travis> ... now a revised set of at-risk features in editor's draft
# [02:29] <Travis> ... added more stuff from path objects
# [02:30] <Travis> ... hit regions still there
# [02:30] <Travis> ... all attributes of text-metrics (except width)
# [02:30] <Travis> ... ellipse is going out due to lack of implementations..
# [02:30] <Travis> ... focus ring stuff
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# [02:30] <Travis> ... So we didn't have the right at-risk feature list originally.
# [02:30] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [02:30] <Travis> ... how to move forward?
# [02:31] <Travis> ... we could 1) publish revised version of canvas w/revised at-risk features.
# [02:31] <Travis> ... but we'd have to go back to LC.
# [02:31] <Travis> ... per the process
# [02:31] <Travis> ... or 2) we could remove all the items from the spec
# [02:31] <Travis> ... go back to LC then directly to PR.
# [02:32] <Travis> ... there's also some variations possible
# [02:32] <Travis> ... a11y TF is also considering removal of all but focus-ring items
# [02:32] <Travis> ... go to LC then back to CR
# [02:32] <paulc> A11Y TF CfC on Canvas features at risk: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0006.html
# [02:33] <Travis> ... quotes the mail
# [02:33] <Travis> ... in long term, some features may transition to canvas L2
# [02:33] <Travis> ... a11y looking for CfC on this. Should close on Wednesday
# [02:34] <Travis> ... wanted to ask folks in room what they think of this plan.
# [02:34] <Travis> ... and whether we should keep the focus-ring stuff in the spec.
# [02:34] <Travis> ... ack. that we're missing Rich (IBM)'s opinion
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# [02:34] <Travis> ... there's a proposal to keep the a11y TF open.
# [02:35] <Travis> MarkS: No sure--don't have consensus
# [02:35] <MikeSmith> -> http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/ Canvas2D test results
# [02:35] <Travis> paulc: Mike can you update on canvas testing?
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# [02:36] <MikeSmith> -> http://w3c-test.org/testrunner/2dcontext/failures.html Canvas2D test (non)failures
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# [02:36] <Travis> MikeSmith: now looking at Canvas 2d test results
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# [02:36] <Travis> ... should have safari there eventually
# [02:36] <Travis> ... purpose was to see the failures.
# [02:36] <Travis> ... we have Fx26, Cr 31, IE10
# [02:37] <Travis> ... results generated from test framework authored by ms2ger
# [02:37] <Travis> ... green = good
# [02:37] <Travis> ... other colors = bad
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# [02:38] <Travis> ... some tests failed because test case harness issues (generator failures--those in yellow)
# [02:38] <Travis> ... reds are failing, we know why most of them are, but not all.
# [02:39] <Travis> paulc: need to understand why some tests are failing.
# [02:39] <MarkS> q+ MarkS to ask how complete the test coverage is
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# [02:39] <Travis> MikeSmith: one more class (blue?) are manual tests
# [02:39] <Travis> ... I haven't run those.
# [02:40] <Travis> paulc: CR exit criteria is 2 interop impls.
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# [02:40] <Travis> ... the implementation has to be "public" could be a beta release.
# [02:40] <Zakim> - +1.971.998.aabb
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# [02:40] <Travis> ... are there other options other than the implementations we've looked at?
# [02:41] <Travis> MikeSmith: blink/webkit are not far enough apart in the failure details.
# [02:41] <Travis> ... for me, it looks like we're ready to go into the CR transition given the test results.
# [02:41] <Travis> ... note: test suite doesn't include at-risk features.
# [02:41] <Travis> ... otherwise, we're ready to go.
# [02:41] <Travis> paulc: summary:
# [02:41] <Travis> ... if we remove at-risk features, we can go back to short last call.
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# [02:42] <Travis> ... and declare that we'll go (next) to PR.
# [02:42] <MarkS> q-
# [02:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [02:42] <Travis> ... perhaps we could have a canvas REC early in 2014.
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# [02:42] <Travis> ... looks like a11y TF wanted to get consensus to leave focus-ring in, and extend the CR
# [02:42] <Travis> ... I want to chat about that.
# [02:42] <Travis> ... (hear from the group)
# [02:42] <Travis> ... we won't make decisions here today
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# [02:43] <Travis> ... but want to know what a CfC result might be.
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# [02:43] <Travis> ... looking for input on at-risk features in editor's draft
# [02:43] <MikeSmith> q?
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# [02:43] <Travis> q+ jmann
# [02:43] * Zakim sees jmann on the speaker queue
# [02:43] <Lisa> Q+
# [02:43] * Zakim sees jmann, Lisa on the speaker queue
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# [02:44] <Travis> cynthia: any chance that canvas l1 rec earlier would speed up v2?
# [02:44] <Travis> paulc: yes.
# [02:44] <MikeSmith> q+ to express support to the chairs and group from the team side for readiness of transition out of CR for features that are in the test suite
# [02:44] * Zakim sees jmann, Lisa, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [02:45] <Travis> jmann: hi folks
# [02:45] <Travis> ... worked on implementing canvas
# [02:45] <paulc> ack jmann
# [02:45] * Zakim sees Lisa, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [02:45] <Travis> ... we've been looking at draw focus ring
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# [02:45] <Travis> ... seems like draw focus ring stuff needs work
# [02:45] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [02:45] <Travis> ... ric and I have some feedback
# [02:45] <Travis> ... draw focus ring seems to be trumping user's settings
# [02:46] <Travis> ... some of the methods may need more thinking
# [02:46] <Travis> ... focus rings and hit regions may have some overlap
# [02:46] <Travis> ... also API name may be a bit confusing
# [02:46] <Travis> ... the draw command doesn't actually draw anything
# [02:46] <Travis> ... and it's not a ring
# [02:46] <Travis> ... we have 2 early implementations
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# [02:47] <Travis> ... cabanier also has some spec questions
# [02:47] <hober> q+
# [02:47] * Zakim sees Lisa, MikeSmith, hober on the speaker queue
# [02:47] <adrianba> q?
# [02:47] * Zakim sees Lisa, MikeSmith, hober on the speaker queue
# [02:47] <Travis> ... I propose we move these to v2 for clarifying
# [02:47] <cyns> ack lisa
# [02:47] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, hober on the speaker queue
# [02:47] <Travis> Lisa: I wasn't following this issue
# [02:47] <Travis> ... bear with me
# [02:48] <Travis> ... legislation around the world fines folks for not producing a11y content
# [02:48] <WayneCarr> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [02:48] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), [IPcaller] (muted)
# [02:48] <Travis> ... folks will produce quick fixes just to ship
# [02:48] <Travis> ... people need to make a11y content
# [02:49] <cyns> q+
# [02:49] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, hober, cyns on the speaker queue
# [02:49] <Travis> ... please don't release canvas until you have a solution that works for a11y
# [02:49] <Travis> q+ jmann
# [02:49] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, hober, cyns, jmann on the speaker queue
# [02:49] <Travis> paulc: canvas is in CR.
# [02:49] * WayneCarr the room is muted. please unmute it.
# [02:49] <MikeSmith> I agree with Jatinder's assessment about DrawCustomFocusRing and further would state it as, we don't have consensus on DrawCustomFocusRing and in particular we don't have implementor agreement on DrawCustomFocusRing (and I say that having followed all the public discussions on blink-dev (chromium-dev?) and webkit-dev and mozilla bug and now the comments from Jatinder here)
# [02:49] * WayneCarr the telecon that is, the room is probably fine
# [02:49] <cyns> ack mike
# [02:49] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to express support to the chairs and group from the team side for readiness of transition out of CR for features that are in the test suite
# [02:49] * Zakim sees hober, cyns, jmann on the speaker queue
# [02:49] <cyns> ack mikesmith
# [02:49] * Zakim sees hober, cyns, jmann on the speaker queue
# [02:49] <Travis> ... today, if someone builds a site with canvas, can they still get fined (canvas features from today's draft)?
# [02:49] <Travis> Lisa: yes
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# [02:50] <Travis> MikeSmith: acks. lots of history around this
# [02:50] <Travis> ... draw system focus ring is not as controversial
# [02:50] <MarkS> q+
# [02:50] * Zakim sees hober, cyns, jmann, MarkS on the speaker queue
# [02:51] <Travis> ... draw custom focus ring (with lots of discussion from implementors)...
# [02:51] <Travis> ... from W3C team side, looking at results and making objective assessment
# [02:51] <Travis> ... chairs and WG are in a good position to transition canvas spec with the given features
# [02:51] <cyns> ack hober
# [02:51] * Zakim sees cyns, jmann, MarkS on the speaker queue
# [02:52] <Travis> hober: thanks jmann, good summary
# [02:52] <cabanier> q+
# [02:52] * Zakim sees cyns, jmann, MarkS, cabanier on the speaker queue
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# [02:52] <Travis> ... it's important that we get this right and have accessible canvas.
# [02:52] <Travis> ... what's current speced in draw ** focus ring doesn't meet high quality bar
# [02:52] <Travis> ... for getting the feature right
# [02:52] <Travis> ... in response to lisa:
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# [02:52] <Travis> ... browsers have shipped this for years
# [02:53] <Travis> ... we need to get the spec done
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# [02:53] <paulc> q+
# [02:53] * Zakim sees cyns, jmann, MarkS, cabanier, paulc on the speaker queue
# [02:53] <Travis> ... we need to get a11y right
# [02:53] <Travis> ... we probably can't get these out simultaneously
# [02:53] <cyns> ack me
# [02:53] * Zakim sees jmann, MarkS, cabanier, paulc on the speaker queue
# [02:53] <Travis> ... a11y seems to be taking longer, but we need to do the right thing
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# [02:54] <Travis> cynthia: if we ship what we have, we can focus on a11y, and shift our attention to it.
# [02:54] <cyns> ack jmann
# [02:54] * Zakim sees MarkS, cabanier, paulc on the speaker queue
# [02:54] <paulc> ack jmann
# [02:54] * Zakim sees MarkS, cabanier, paulc on the speaker queue
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# [02:54] <Travis> jmann: for lisa: canvas ships with one accessibility feature (shadow dom -- meaning content tree under canvas)
# [02:54] <Travis> ... does work for some scenarios, not all (game)
# [02:54] <cyns> ack mark
# [02:54] * Zakim sees cabanier, paulc on the speaker queue
# [02:54] <paulc> ack marks
# [02:54] * Zakim sees cabanier, paulc on the speaker queue
# [02:54] <Travis> MarkS: lisa is right.
# [02:54] <WayneCarr> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [02:54] <Zakim> On the phone I see Shenzhen (muted), [IPcaller] (muted)
# [02:54] <cyns> q+
# [02:54] * Zakim sees cabanier, paulc, cyns on the speaker queue
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# [02:55] <Travis> ... we hear from epub (e.g.) that focus stuff is important
# [02:55] <Travis> ... we should set a high a11y bar
# [02:55] <Travis> ... yes jmann, we do have shadow dom, but...
# [02:55] <WayneCarr> zakim, please unmute Shenzhen
# [02:55] <Zakim> Shenzhen should no longer be muted
# [02:55] <Travis> ... seems like we're getting close and can meet a minimum bar
# [02:56] <Travis> ... is there a possibility for the big three browsers to get these all working minimally
# [02:56] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [02:56] <Travis> ... we are sending a message that there will be a rec without this a11y support.
# [02:56] <Travis> ... devs will say, my app needs only canvas v1, w/out a11y features.
# [02:56] <rniwa> q+
# [02:56] * Zakim sees cabanier, paulc, cyns, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [02:56] <paulc> ack cab
# [02:56] * Zakim sees paulc, cyns, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [02:56] <Travis> ... we should be cautious
# [02:57] <Travis> cabanier: jmann said you can use shadow dom--it's pretty powerful and accessible
# [02:57] * Joins: jungkees (~jungkees@public.cloak)
# [02:57] <Travis> ... the implementations in Fx and Cr are differnet, spec needs to be clarified
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# [02:57] <Zakim> + +1.503.264.aacc - is perhaps Wayne_Carr
# [02:57] <Travis> ... I don't think it helps to ship something today
# [02:57] <Travis> ... no reason to not have a short level 2
# [02:58] <Travis> hober: a 1.1?
# [02:58] <Travis> paulc: here's another alternative
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# [02:58] <Travis> ... no reason not to move these to an extension spec
# [02:58] <adrianba> q+
# [02:58] * Zakim sees paulc, cyns, rniwa, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [02:58] <Travis> ... do these a11y features on top of canvas as an extension spec
# [02:58] <cabanier> q+
# [02:58] * Zakim sees paulc, cyns, rniwa, adrianba, cabanier on the speaker queue
# [02:58] <Travis> ... and not tie these new features to a v2 at all.
# [02:58] <Travis> ... what do folks think? It's another possibility.
# [02:59] <Travis> ... moving these out of band may be helpful
# [02:59] <cyns> ack paulc
# [02:59] * Zakim sees cyns, rniwa, adrianba, cabanier on the speaker queue
# [02:59] <Travis> hober: clarify that we have a process for extension specs
# [02:59] <Travis> ... modularity is good
# [02:59] <Travis> ... there's a concern that extensions specs are less real
# [02:59] <Zakim> -Wayne_Carr
# [02:59] <MikeSmith> to be clear, I don't think cabanier was saying the implementations of the content tree under canvas (what in the past has been called the "canvas shadow dom") are different; instead he was talking about the implementations of DrawCustomFocusRing (I think)
# [02:59] <Travis> ... clearly not the case.
# [03:00] <adrianba> q?
# [03:00] * Zakim sees cyns, rniwa, adrianba, cabanier on the speaker queue
# [03:00] <Travis> paulc: empowering people to work on a separate spec, improves it's visibility
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# [03:00] <paulc> ack cyns
# [03:00] * Zakim sees rniwa, adrianba, cabanier on the speaker queue
# [03:00] <Travis> cyns: to MarkS a bad API codified in browsers will live forever.
# [03:01] * Quits: Daniel_Austin (~Daniel_Austin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:01] <Travis> ... we don't want to end up there.
# [03:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [03:01] <Travis> ... sounds like all browsers are working on this.
# [03:01] <paulc> who is rniwa?
# [03:01] <Travis> ... moving to extension spec, v2, whatever may not be a concern
# [03:01] <rniwa> paulc: Ryosuke Niwa from Apple
# [03:01] <WayneCarr> zakim, IPcaller is WayneCarr
# [03:01] <Zakim> +WayneCarr; got it
# [03:01] <Travis> ... does the idea of extension spec work for epub?
# [03:01] <Travis> ... I think it could work.
# [03:02] <paulc> ack rniwa
# [03:02] * Zakim sees adrianba, cabanier on the speaker queue
# [03:02] <Travis> rniwa: google implemented in chrome.
# [03:02] <Travis> ... then AT comes in and shows the focus ring
# [03:02] <Travis> ... API is deceiving
# [03:03] <paulc> Thank Ryosuke
# [03:03] <Travis> ... may be worse having the bad feature name in the spec v1
# [03:03] <MarkS> s/shadow dom, but/sub dom, but drawFocusRing is an important component in making the sub dom accessible
# [03:03] <Travis> ... browser will be able to implement new features soon
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# [03:03] <MikeSmith> about DrawCustomFocusRing and a11y, if people want a perspective from somebody who has particular insight all-around on this (including from having tried to implement it per spec), talk with Dominic Manzonni
# [03:03] <Travis> ... we will see interop soon
# [03:03] * Quits: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:04] <paulc> ack ad
# [03:04] * Zakim sees cabanier on the speaker queue
# [03:04] <Travis> adrianba: will be brief, we all seem to be agreeing
# [03:04] <Travis> ... so why move this spec forward?
# [03:04] <Travis> ... some folks have said we need a rec, but why?
# [03:04] <Travis> ... agree with engineering discussion that needs to fix the focus stuff.
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# [03:04] <Travis> ... it won't stop; browsers keep working on it.
# [03:05] <Travis> ... there are important IP considerations here.
# [03:05] <Travis> ... don't want to revisist
# [03:05] <Travis> ... there are some old discussions about canvas in HTML5
# [03:05] <MarkS> s/my app needs only canvas v1/my app meets canvas v1 and that is good enough for me
# [03:05] <Travis> ... the royalty free committment in the rec is desired
# [03:05] <Travis> ... there are important consequences to have a rec
# [03:05] <Travis> ... we're happy to see lots of green in the test suite
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# [03:06] <Travis> cabanier: some red box are because the test are relying on some html5 features that aren't working quite as nice in implementatios
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# [03:06] <Travis> ... if we move this to extension spec
# [03:06] <MikeSmith> big +1 to what adrianba said about importance of getting canvas to rec for IP/RF-agreement reasons
# [03:06] <Travis> ... want feedback from a11y group on our open questions.
# [03:07] <Travis> ... let's not let the discussion die. We need to make progress.
# [03:07] <Travis> q?
# [03:07] * Zakim sees cabanier on the speaker queue
# [03:07] <Travis> ack cabanier
# [03:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [03:07] <Travis> paulc: summarize the state of the world
# [03:07] <Travis> ... we have CfC that I don't see consensus.
# [03:07] <Travis> ... we also have offline discussion going on, but we need to make this more visible
# [03:07] <Travis> ... especially yanina & charles.
# [03:08] <Travis> ... we need to see answers on the list.
# [03:08] <Travis> ... we need to see the discussion in either the TF or somewhere else.
# [03:08] <MarkS> s/yanina/janina
# [03:08] <Travis> ... how to move forward.
# [03:08] * Travis thanks!
# [03:09] <Travis> ... I would get strong support for moving this forward, probably will get formal objections
# [03:09] <Travis> ... love given those FO's to the director
# [03:09] <Travis> ... please, cabanier, jmann, hober summarize your questions, take it to the list
# [03:09] <Travis> ... start good "solid" thread
# [03:09] <Travis> ... will make it easier for TF facilitators to identify next steps.
# [03:10] <Travis> ... we've met my goal of having an open discussion, and we've seen the test results
# [03:10] <Travis> ... show's we've got the right data to send to the director.
# [03:10] <Travis> ... thanks all!
# [03:10] <darobin> http://darobin.github.io/html-ruby/
# [03:11] <Travis> topic: ruby markup
# [03:11] <Travis> darobin: we have minutes linked from somewhere.
# [03:11] <Travis> paulc: prestart...
# [03:11] * rniwa thanks Travis
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# [03:12] <Zakim> -WayneCarr
# [03:12] <Travis> darobin: ruby has been a long-time problem in html
# [03:12] <Travis> ... some work over the years, but it wasn't done.
# [03:12] <Travis> ... last 2 years of use cases gathered by i18n
# [03:12] <Travis> ... based on this, we started on improving ruby in html
# [03:12] <Travis> ... we also coordinated with *those* css people
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# [03:13] <Travis> ... because there's a complicated rendering that goes with it.
# [03:13] <Travis> ... and I think we've got it!
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# [03:13] <Travis> ... on plenary day, we had a breakout session about ruby
# [03:13] <Travis> ... we agreed (non-binding) about
# [03:13] <r12a> http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby-use-cases/
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# [03:13] <Travis> ... taking the current ruby spec and integrate it into html
# [03:13] <paulc> W3C HTML Ruby Markup Extensions: http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-html-ruby-extensions-20131022/
# [03:13] <Travis> ... would include some limited parser changesj
# [03:14] <Travis> ... not huge changes
# [03:14] <Travis> ... adding rb elements so they're not implicit
# [03:14] <Travis> ... these are in content (real ruby content)
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# [03:14] <Travis> ... also adding rtc elements
# [03:14] <Travis> ... (ruby text container)
# [03:14] <Travis> ... first step is do document this plan
# [03:15] <Travis> ... then to integrate the changes
# [03:15] <Travis> ... plan to do that in the next few weeks
# [03:15] <paulc> Ruby HTML CR bugs: 19251-19255 in:
# [03:15] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=REOPENED&component=HTML5%20spec&keywords=CR&list_id=29878
# [03:15] <Travis> ... then speak to implementors
# [03:15] <Travis> ... I hope that with a few tests we'll show that ruby is interoperable
# [03:15] <Travis> ... to show decent ruby support in html5.0
# [03:15] <Travis> paulc: showing the bugs related to ruby
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# [03:16] <Travis> ... when we looked at HTML5.0 cr bugs, ~18
# [03:16] <Travis> ... 5 of these are fixed by the ruby extension spec.
# [03:16] <Travis> ... my question: after interop, and you attempt to fold in the new material.
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# [03:16] <Travis> ... will the old info be corrected/replaced?
# [03:16] <Travis> darobin: yes. I can close the bugs, the html spec will be fixed.
# [03:17] <Travis> paulc: this will show interop in html.
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# [03:17] <Travis> ... timeframe?
# [03:17] <Travis> darobin: starting now
# [03:18] <Travis> paulc: I know epub really needs this.
# [03:18] <Travis> darobin: ditto
# [03:18] <Travis> paulc: I've talked with some folks in the hallway that don't understand the licensing experiment
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# [03:19] <Travis> ... using cc-by only applies to extension specs
# [03:19] <Travis> ... when we fold ruby back in, it will then be covered by the doc license of the HTML spec
# [03:19] <Travis> ... make sure that (for the community) we publish a heartbeat doc under cc-by that will be the exact same thing we fold in.
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# [03:20] <Travis> ... if we all die tomorrow, someone could pick it up and run with it.
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# [03:20] <Travis> darobin: I can do that (publish the final ruby extension spec before folding it in)
# [03:20] <Travis> paulc: questions?
# [03:20] * Travis smiles
# [03:21] <Travis> paulc: last call?
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# [03:21] <Travis> ... we're on break!
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# [03:23] <shan> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [03:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html shan
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# [03:43] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [03:43] <Zakim> HTML_WG()8:00PM has ended
# [03:43] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.971.998.aaaa, Shenzhen, +1.971.998.aabb, +1.503.264.aacc, WayneCarr
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# [04:08] <darobin> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML_Normative_References
# [04:09] <hober> scribenick: hober
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# [04:09] <hober> topic: Normative References
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# [04:09] <hober> darobin: in order to ship, we need to ensure the references in our spec are to things that are stable
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# [04:10] <hober> ... the documents they point at don't have to be entirely stable, but the features we rely on in them need to be
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# [04:10] <hober> ... i've been going through our existing references to fix
# [04:10] <hober> ... erring on the side of inclusion
# [04:10] <masinter> ((can someone repost the URL of what is showing??))
# [04:10] <hober> ... many references are safe
# [04:11] <hober> ... unused references have already been pruned from the spec
# [04:11] <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML_Normative_References
# [04:11] <hober> ... there are a number of refs that can be made informative
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# [04:11] <hober> ... e.g. the references to the whatwg wiki and becss can be made informative
# [04:12] <hober> ... there are a number of references to LC or CR documents
# [04:12] <hober> ... these are lower risk, overall they're fine
# [04:12] <hober> ... then there are the problematic references
# [04:12] <hober> ... many of them can be dealt with easily
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# [04:13] <hober> ... e.g. xhr, but we only rely on progress events
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# [04:13] <hober> ... so we can reference the other progress events doc instead
# [04:13] * hober darobin please fix the above if i got that wrong
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# [04:14] <hober> paulc: are these changes editorial or are you filing bugs for them?
# [04:14] <hober> darobin: changes are largely editorial
# [04:14] <hober> paulc: should we have an uber bug covering all of these changes?
# [04:14] <hober> darobin: any change that involves a change in behavior will have bug filed
# [04:15] <hober> ... biggest issue are a chunk of references we can't possibly remove or make informative
# [04:15] <hober> ... e.g. dom4, which this wg has taken on and will advance
# [04:15] <hober> ... travis, where are you with dom parsing / innerHTML
# [04:15] <hober> Travis: I've made 3 years of progress in the past few nights
# [04:16] <hober> ... I thought DOM parsing and serialization would be one bug fix
# [04:16] <hober> ... i've ported bug fixes from the living standard
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# [04:16] <hober> ... hopefully start a last call next week
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# [04:16] <hober> darobin: other problematic refs include encoding, url
# [04:17] <hober> ... talking with anne, i think we can handle this
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# [04:17] <hober> ... nightmare reference is mime sniffing
# [04:17] <hober> ... no w3c spec, whatwg spec full of missing pieces and TODOs
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# [04:17] <hober> ... we need this for image loading, etc.
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# [04:17] <adrianba> q?
# [04:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:18] <adrianba> q+
# [04:18] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [04:18] <hober> ... that document has some good parts, but we need a plan to get a doc we could rely on
# [04:18] <hober> masinter: this doc was in the ietf web security wg for a while
# [04:18] <hober> ... abarth was working on it but abandoned it
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# [04:19] <hober> darobin: went to ietf and got abandoned, went to whatwg next and has largely languished
# [04:19] <Daniel_Austin> [XHTMLMOD] should point here: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/
# [04:19] <hober> paulc: why can't the html spec say this is up to the UAs?
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# [04:19] <hober> MikeSmith: we need interoperable behavior here
# [04:19] <hober> paulc: are the existing browsers sniffing in the same way?
# [04:19] <hober> darobin: they're not
# [04:20] <hober> annevk: they're pretty close though
# [04:20] <hober> adrianba: i agree with aspiration to have clear spec on this
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# [04:20] <hober> ... but we don't have one
# [04:20] <masinter> to finish ALL of mime sniffing you have to specify file: and ftp:
# [04:20] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [04:20] <hober> ... it would be OK but not desirable to leave it undefined now and fix it later
# [04:20] <hober> paulc: these are all subjective
# [04:21] <hober> ... not many people in the wg realized robin was doing this work; i wanted people to be aware of it
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# [04:21] <hober> ... some of these need bugs to be more visible in the wg
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# [04:21] <hober> ... so interested parties can weigh in; people have different opinions
# [04:21] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
# [04:21] * Zakim sees adrianba, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [04:22] <hober> ... would we hold up html5 until we can demonstrate interoperable sniffing?
# [04:22] <hober> masinter: to really spec sniffing, you need to spec it for http, ftp, files, etc
# [04:22] <hober> ... no one's been willing to do this
# [04:23] <hober> ... you could say there's some process to go from a url to data with a mime type, and leave it at that
# [04:23] <hober> MikeSmith: where we started was with this in the spec, then removed it
# [04:23] <hober> ... if something isn't working per spec, not correct to punt and say it's UA defined
# [04:23] <hober> ... [describes page loading as an example of this]
# [04:24] <hober> ... i don't think this is a prudent way to go about this
# [04:24] <masinter> it would make more sense to merge it with "Fetch" and start a working group to finish fetch
# [04:24] <darobin> q+
# [04:24] * Zakim sees adrianba, MikeSmith, darobin on the speaker queue
# [04:24] <hober> ... the only reason sniffing is separate is because we moved it out; it's logically the same spec
# [04:24] <hober> annevk: sniffing is largely interoperable
# [04:24] <masinter> i'm not in favor of saying "implementation dependent", but it is in the OS and not the browser in many cases
# [04:25] <hober> ... the work abarth did has led mozilla and chrome to have largely aligned behavior here
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# [04:25] <hober> ... most of the red boxes in the spec are related to work gordan has been actively working on
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# [04:25] <MikeSmith> it is and absurdly http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/
# [04:25] <MikeSmith> s/it is and absurdly//
# [04:26] <hober> darobin: you mean the spec looks bad but isn't that bad
# [04:26] <hober> annevk: yes
# [04:26] * Quits: Ruinan_ (~Ruinan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:26] <hober> ... the red boxes are around new stuff related to parsing and serializing mime types
# [04:26] <hober> ... octet stream v. code point stream, etc.
# [04:26] <MikeSmith> -> http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ MIME Sniffing spec
# [04:26] <hober> darobin: could we ship it in a year if someone worked on it
# [04:26] <hober> annevk: yes
# [04:27] <MikeSmith> we also need a test suite for MIME sniffing...
# [04:27] * Quits: JatinderMann (~JatinderMann@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:27] <hober> darobin: maybe we could do this as an extension spec
# [04:27] <hober> masinter: what about merging it with fetch?
# [04:27] <hober> annevk: i've been trying to think about the layering there
# [04:27] <hober> ... not quite sure what i would think of that right now
# [04:27] <hober> ... fetch is getting the bag of bits
# [04:27] <hober> ... sniffing is an api endpoint thing and not a network thing
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# [04:28] <hober> ... fetch is about getting the bytes; endpoint decides what to do with the bytes
# [04:28] <hober> [HTTP example]
# [04:28] * Quits: mark_vickers (~mav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:28] <hober> masinter: protocol could be "here's a uri, give me the bag of bytes and your best guess mime type"
# [04:29] <hober> paulc: we won't solve this today
# [04:29] <hober> masinter: one of the normative references marked safe
# [04:29] <hober> ... multipart form data, RFC2388
# [04:30] <paulc> [RFC2388] Returning Values from Forms: multipart/form-data, L. Masinter. IETF.
# [04:30] <hober> ... hixie asked me to update it, since i wrote it 15 years ago
# [04:30] <paulc> see http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/88/slides/slides-88-appsawg-8.pdf
# [04:30] <hober> ... turns out people didn't do non-ascii names like RFC2047
# [04:30] <hober> ... can we get some of the ietf specs updated to reflect new reality
# [04:31] <hober> ... it was a lot of work to convince ietf ADs etc. to do this work
# [04:31] <hober> [summarizes form processing material from slides linked above]
# [04:32] <hober> ... i have a github repo
# [04:32] <paulc> https://github.com/masinter/multipart-form-data
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# [04:34] <hober> ... i put the whatwg spec in the repo to, so we can figure out what will need to change in it
# [04:34] <plh3> q+
# [04:34] * Zakim sees adrianba, MikeSmith, darobin, plh on the speaker queue
# [04:34] <hober> ... i haven't fixed much
# [04:34] <darobin> ack me
# [04:34] * Zakim sees adrianba, MikeSmith, plh on the speaker queue
# [04:34] <hober> ... still some work to be done to align this with reality
# [04:34] <adrianba> q-
# [04:34] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, plh on the speaker queue
# [04:35] <hober> darobin: the classification i made is process-wise
# [04:35] <hober> ... in terms of interop, this work is needed
# [04:35] <Zakim> HTML_WG()8:00PM has now started
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# [04:35] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [04:35] <hober> masinter: you should edit the document to say this work is ongoing
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# [04:35] <hober> ... don't make a time dependence on this
# [04:36] <plh3> q-
# [04:36] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [04:36] <hober> ... we should proceed to work on this, but not make it the long tentpole
# [04:36] <plh3> queue=
# [04:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:36] <hober> paulc: raising a bug on this would give us a great way to track this
# [04:36] <WayneCarr> zakim, IPcaller is WayneCarr
# [04:36] <Zakim> +WayneCarr; got it
# [04:37] <hober> masinter: i would love help on doing the technical work
# [04:37] <hober> paulc: good way to get help is to file a bug
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# [04:38] <WayneCarr> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [04:38] <Zakim> On the phone I see WayneCarr
# [04:38] <hober> topic: joint meeting with web performance wg
# [04:38] <adrianba> ScribeNick: adrianba
# [04:39] <MikeSmith> q?
# [04:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:39] <adrianba> TOPIC: Web Performance
# [04:39] <adrianba> TOPIC: Prerender
# [04:39] <paulc> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-prerender
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# [04:40] <adrianba> jmann: thanks for having us here - we have two topics that will be quick
# [04:40] <adrianba> ... first topic is prerender
# [04:40] <adrianba> ... we opened a bug 22737
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# [04:40] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22737
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# [04:40] <adrianba> ... today the html5 spec defines link rel prefetch but doesn't define prerender
# [04:40] <paulc> <link rel="prerender" href="http://www.example.org/survey/question-2">
# [04:41] <adrianba> ... both IE and Chrome support prerender and while we have added the item into the registry we were hoping to also get it into the html5 spec
# [04:41] <adrianba> ... there was a discussion in the bug about putting in html 5.1
# [04:41] <adrianba> ... but we have two implementations so we wonder if it will be able to go to 5.0
# [04:41] <adrianba> ... they also support dns-prefetch - maybe we could bring this in too
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# [04:41] <adrianba> ... dns-prefetch isn't in this example but the approach is the same
# [04:42] <adrianba> ... this is the first item
# [04:42] <adrianba> paulc: comments from the floor?
# [04:42] <adrianba> ... either the general functionality or moving into 5.0?
# [04:42] <adrianba> ... reps from webperf say they have interop
# [04:43] <adrianba> jmann: we can provide test cases
# [04:43] <adrianba> paulc: is there a spec?
# [04:43] <adrianba> plh: you are looking at it
# [04:43] <adrianba> ... the spec says to do what we did and add to the wiki
# [04:43] <adrianba> ... this is the spec as best as we can so far
# [04:43] <adrianba> paulc: are there other rel values in this page?
# [04:43] <adrianba> plh: this is just one value - dns-prefetch is somewhere else on the same wiki
# [04:44] * Quits: masinter (~user@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:45] <adrianba> paulc: the html5 spec proposed to use extensibility using the wiki
# [04:45] * Joins: hoyang (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [04:45] <adrianba> ... why would we make your proposals more important by putting in the spec
# [04:45] <adrianba> jmann: because the spec includes prefetch - it is odd to only have half of the solution
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# [04:45] * Parts: hoyang (~Adium@public.cloak) (hoyang)
# [04:46] <adrianba> plh: also this one has an impact on user agents - for example, the license one you looked at doesn't have an impact on UA
# [04:46] <adrianba> ... like prefetch, these have an impact on UAs
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# [04:46] <adrianba> paulc: so the list is two parts, those that impact UAs and those that don't and you would like to propose to get these into HTML5 because they do impact UA
# [04:46] <adrianba> q?
# [04:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:47] <Jirka> list of rel values is at http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions
# [04:47] <darobin> http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions
# [04:47] <adrianba> larry: http 2.0 group is working on this using a push model
# [04:47] <adrianba> ... and you might question the long term stability of this feature because of that
# [04:48] <adrianba> arvin: the http 2 implementation for push is different than this
# [04:48] <adrianba> ... that is when the web server knows what to push
# [04:48] <plh3> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Controlling_DNS_prefetching
# [04:48] <plh3> http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/dns-prefetching
# [04:48] <adrianba> ... but this is where the publisher is making a hint to the browser to decide what to do
# [04:48] <adrianba> rniwa: one qualifying question
# [04:49] <adrianba> ... is the prerender required, are UAs required to do this or is it a hint
# [04:49] <adrianba> arvin: this is a hint
# [04:49] <adrianba> rniwa: so it is still valid if you don't do this
# [04:49] <adrianba> Daniel_Austin: how do developers do this in http2? web developers do this in mark-up
# [04:50] <adrianba> paulc: i think larry is saying that if servers are pushing and UAs pulling they have to work together
# [04:50] <adrianba> ... as co-chair, you have done the right thing putting it into wiki
# [04:50] <adrianba> ... you have asked us about putting in html
# [04:51] <adrianba> ... plan 2014 says publish an extension spec and if you catch up in time then it can be folded into html5
# [04:51] <adrianba> ... so if you have the spec with the test cases and through the process and you catch-up to html 5.0 then you could better propose adding in
# [04:51] <adrianba> ... worst case you miss the train but you have the spec and demonstrate interop
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# [04:52] <adrianba> TOPIC: Resource Priorities update
# [04:52] * Quits: mark_vickers (~mav@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:52] <adrianba> jmann: second item is webperf wg is working on new spec called resource priorities
# [04:52] <adrianba> ... touches html and we wanted to make sure there is visibility
# [04:52] <adrianba> ... want to get your feedback
# [04:52] <adrianba> ... today browsers download resources in doc order
# [04:53] <adrianba> ... we don't have signal from dev about what is important
# [04:53] <adrianba> ... we want dev to give browser a hint about what is important
# [04:53] <adrianba> ... we have lazy load attribute to give to elements
# [04:53] <sunyang> can you provide a link about this, thank you?
# [04:53] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/
# [04:53] <adrianba> ... in cases of constrained network, for example, no more connections available
# [04:53] <sunyang> thanks
# [04:53] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/#attr-lazyload
# [04:53] <adrianba> ... priority would be given to elements that do not have this attribute
# [04:54] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/#attr-postpone
# [04:54] <adrianba> ... we are also considering postpone attribute which means don't download unless in the viewport
# [04:54] <adrianba> ... touches image element for example
# [04:54] <adrianba> ... want people to see this and give feedback
# [04:54] <adrianba> ... may be in this one spec or maybe we put html pieces in html and svg in svg
# [04:54] <hober> q?
# [04:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [04:54] <darobin> q+
# [04:54] * Zakim sees darobin on the speaker queue
# [04:55] <adrianba> ... but we're doing end to end design first
# [04:55] <adrianba> darobin: as a general comment this is interesting - of course needs work
# [04:55] <adrianba> ... in terms of putting in html spec i don't think we need everything related to html in the html spec
# [04:55] <adrianba> ... big doc published not often
# [04:55] <adrianba> ... if can define orthogonal and can implement on its own then in general better not to touch html spec
# [04:56] <adrianba> ... not rejecting idea - just a process question
# [04:56] <adrianba> ... this simplifies life
# [04:56] <WayneCarr> zakim, call Shenzhen
# [04:56] <Zakim> ok, WayneCarr; the call is being made
# [04:56] <Zakim> +Shenzhen
# [04:56] <adrianba> ... of course sometimes it makes no sense to stay outside
# [04:56] <WayneCarr> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [04:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see WayneCarr (muted), Shenzhen (muted)
# [04:56] <WayneCarr> zakim, unmute Shenzhen
# [04:56] <Zakim> Shenzhen should no longer be muted
# [04:57] <adrianba> zakim, unmute shenzhen
# [04:57] <Zakim> Shenzhen was not muted, adrianba
# [04:57] <adrianba> paulc: if it is an extension spec then needs to track whether it applies to new elements
# [04:57] <plh3> q+
# [04:57] * Zakim sees darobin, plh on the speaker queue
# [04:57] <adrianba> ... but it isn't amending deep understanding of algorithm, where having that outside makes life harder
# [04:58] <adrianba> darobin: for example, html template was making parser changes and was hard to review
# [04:58] <adrianba> darobin: next question is bikeshedding but it looks like lazy load is not doing lazy load
# [04:59] <hober> q+
# [04:59] * Zakim sees darobin, plh, hober on the speaker queue
# [04:59] <adrianba> ... lazy load is load when you need it but this is about not loading when resource restricted
# [04:59] * Travis start bikeshedding
# [04:59] <hober> ack darobin
# [04:59] * Zakim sees plh, hober on the speaker queue
# [04:59] <adrianba> jmann: we're open to name changes - initially was defer but that existed
# [04:59] <adrianba> ... looking for single word - it is fpwd looking for ideas
# [04:59] <plh3> http://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/1015-webperf-update/#/7
# [04:59] <darobin> ack plh3
# [04:59] * Zakim sees plh, hober on the speaker queue
# [04:59] * Travis load-me-with-lower-priority-please attribute
# [04:59] <darobin> ack plh
# [04:59] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
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# [05:00] <adrianba> plh: i did presentation about lazy load last month listing how it affects script element
# [05:00] <adrianba> ... we are modifying ordering of when things happen
# [05:00] <adrianba> ... both for async and defer
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# [05:01] <adrianba> ... so that would modify precise ordering question especially for defer
# [05:01] <adrianba> ... then maybe that would be one consideration
# [05:01] <fantasai> wrt name changes, I propose swapping 'postpone' and 'lazyload'
# [05:01] <adrianba> darobin: good point - if impacting the way script is loading when it is supposed to be deterministic then it warrants a change to the spec
# [05:01] <adrianba> larry: if resources are on multiple servers then it can't be deterministic
# [05:02] <fantasai> since postpone is really more about lazyloading, and lazyload seems to be more about postponing
# [05:03] <adrianba> adrianba: the html5 spec does make it deterministic today so this would be a change
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# [05:03] <adrianba> q?
# [05:03] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [05:03] <darobin> ack hober
# [05:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [05:04] <adrianba> hober: more of a css question - how does the webperf wg think this will work with postpone in css?
# [05:04] <adrianba> jmann: we're considering removing that piece - we put it in to get broad feedback
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# [05:04] <adrianba> ... with the network layer and styling being far apart it doesn't make much sense
# [05:04] <adrianba> ... we got lots of good feedback yesterday
# [05:04] <adrianba> ... and so the spec is out of date
# [05:05] <adrianba> ... so please review and continue to give feedback
# [05:05] <adrianba> paulc: did we meet the webperf wg goals?
# [05:05] <adrianba> ... about how to fold things in to html5
# [05:05] <adrianba> ... and getting visibility
# [05:05] <adrianba> ... we will hold people to plan 2014
# [05:05] <hober> s/this will work with postpone in css/the postpone value of the resource-priorities css property will interact with the preload scanner/
# [05:06] <adrianba> paulc: we have lunch from now until 1.30 for EME
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# [05:06] <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
# [05:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
# [05:07] <Zakim> -WayneCarr
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# [06:37] <Zakim> -Shenzhen
# [06:37] <Zakim> HTML_WG()8:00PM has ended
# [06:37] <Zakim> Attendees were WayneCarr, Shenzhen
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# [06:37] <adrianba> zakim, what call is this?
# [06:37] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, adrianba.
# [06:37] <adrianba> zakim, code?
# [06:37] <Zakim> the conference code is hidden, adrianba
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# [06:38] <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [06:38] <Zakim> apparently HTML_WG()8:00PM has ended, paulc
# [06:38] <Zakim> On IRC I see paulc, gwm, koji, ddorwin, myakura, Youngsun_Ryu, adrianba, Eliot, saki_, shan, plh, yosuke, igarashi, AutomatedTester, silvia, dsinger, ddavis, Tomoyuki, tao,
# [06:38] <Zakim> ... jernoble_, kazho, fantasai, Zakim, chaals, lgombos, glenn, Lachy, krit
# [06:38] <paulc> track0at, start meeting
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# [06:38] <paulc> trackbot, start meeting
# [06:38] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
# [06:38] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [06:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [06:38] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
# [06:38] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
# [06:38] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [06:38] <trackbot> Date: 15 November 2013
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# [06:38] <paulc> rrsagent, make minutes
# [06:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
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# [06:39] <paulc> zakim, call Shenzhen
# [06:39] <Zakim> sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is
# [06:39] <paulc> Topic: EME bugs Part 3
# [06:39] <paulc> test
# [06:40] <paulc> rrsagent, make minutes
# [06:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
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# [06:41] <paulc> Bug 23619 - Drop or change MediaKeyError constant prefix
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# [06:41] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23619
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# [06:42] <hober> ScribeNick: hober
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# [06:42] <hober> paulc: recent comment: do we use an enum or character error codes
# [06:42] <hober> ... david is looking for suggestions on how to do this
# [06:42] <paulc> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23619#c6
# [06:43] <hober> adrianba: we asked alex and travis for guidance on this
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# [06:43] <hober> ... we probably need a bit more help to get this right
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# [06:43] <hober> ... the solution is to use the name attribute of error
# [06:43] <hober> ... we also need the system code, we can't use DOMError, so we'll extend it
# [06:43] <hober> ... this way we don't have to define a list of numeric values
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# [06:44] <hober> paulc: which of numeric short or string do you end up using?
# [06:44] <hober> adrianba: neither
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# [06:44] <hober> ... this bug represents the pattern we should use
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# [06:45] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21798
# [06:45] <hober> ... bug 21798 is the bug which tracks exactly what the errors should be and what strings we'll need
# [06:45] <slightlyoff> sorry I can't be tehre in person; happy to help design a good answer; likely with Yehuda, Travis, and Anne.
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# [06:45] <paulc> Proposed errors are in thread at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0011.html
# [06:46] <hober> adrianba: for now we can say that these two bugs track the errors related to sessions
# [06:46] <hober> ... we need to finalize granularity of errors
# [06:46] <hober> ... ongoing discussion; we probably won't finish up this meeting
# [06:46] <hober> paulc: action on edtitors to make a concrete proposal?
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# [06:47] <hober> ... yes, editors will resolve these two bugs
# [06:48] <hober> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21203
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# [06:49] <hober> adrianba: we've revisited this several times to get all the issues raised
# [06:49] <hober> ... bug is misnamed now
# [06:49] <paulc> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0011.html
# [06:49] <hober> ... there are a couple of interrelated things here
# [06:49] <hober> ... this is also error related
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# [06:50] <hober> ... previously we tried to define the error that would occur when an application unaware of eme tries to load encrypted content
# [06:50] <hober> ... when the needkey is fired, it was providing information about the media to the application
# [06:50] <hober> ... that can't happen cross-origin
# [06:50] <hober> ... so we also threw an error
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# [06:51] <hober> ... this is complicated
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# [06:51] <hober> ... but we've arrived at a simpler approach
# [06:51] <hober> ... described in comment 30
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# [06:51] <hober> ... instead of throwing an error, we will fire the needkey event again but without the init data
# [06:51] <hober> ... if an app can get the init data from another source, it could continue playing
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# [06:52] <hober> ... instead of detecting apps which can't handle eme, we know that the media element will block waiting for a key and it'll never get one
# [06:52] <hober> ... which is fine since it never would have played anyway
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# [06:52] * adrianba MEDIA_ERR_ENCRYPTED
# [06:52] <hober> ... this lets us eliminate MEDIA_ERR_ENCRYPTED
# [06:53] <paulc> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21203#c30
# [06:53] <hober> ... this is a bit messy, since we're extending an enum from HTML5
# [06:53] <hober> ... there's a risk of collision, so it's nice to eliminate the need to do that
# [06:53] <hober> paulc: you now have a way forward here?
# [06:53] <hober> adrianba: yes
# [06:54] <hober> ... we will implement this soon unless we get objections
# [06:54] <hober> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17750
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# [06:55] <paulc> see https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/rev/196e6b904b22
# [06:55] <hober> adrianba: i've implemented most of what's necessary for the new closed state
# [06:55] <hober> paulc: would you like an answer to the question here (in the bug)
# [06:56] <hober> adrianba: i wasn't sure how to handle this re: key release; maybe it should be discussed when we talk about that bug
# [06:56] <hober> ... maybe we need another bug for finishing key release
# [06:57] <hober> ... i have to update the diagram to match the new text
# [06:57] <hober> s/diagram/state transition diagram/
# [06:57] <hober> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23827
# [06:58] <hober> adrianba: this is how we're tracking features at risk for cr
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# [06:58] <hober> ... keysystem attribute of source element
# [06:58] <hober> ... had a bug to remove the attr
# [06:59] <hober> ... we will keep it for now, but if people don't implement it, there's a concern
# [06:59] <hober> ... so this is a good candidate for the cr at risk list
# [06:59] <hober> ... wondering where keyrelease will fit into this
# [06:59] <hober> ... haven't heard of any planned implementation
# [06:59] <hober> ... at least in the same timeframe as the rest of the spec
# [07:00] <hober> ... there's a bunch of remaining work to do to define key release
# [07:00] <hober> ... raises the question: should we spend the time now to add it (in v1) given the lack of implementor interest?
# [07:00] <markw> q+
# [07:00] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [07:00] <hober> paulc: you mean, if we're going to put it at risk, should we even bother finishing the work on it now
# [07:00] <hober> adrianba: yes
# [07:01] <hober> markw: 1) what exactly do we need to document for key release
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# [07:01] <hober> ... may want to document as little as possible, like the heartbeat feature
# [07:02] <hober> ... with key release, you just go through the PENDING state into the CLOSED state
# [07:02] <hober> ... we need a mechanism to retreive an old session
# [07:02] <hober> ... could explicitly provide session id for previous session
# [07:03] <hober> ... 2) should this be at risk? i expect there to be implementations
# [07:03] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [07:03] <hober> ... i don't have problems marking things as at risk
# [07:03] <hober> ... maybe doing so will cause implementations to happen sooner
# [07:03] <hober> paulc: is this a feature of significant value you'd want to use on your site?
# [07:03] <hober> markw: yes
# [07:04] <hober> paulc: which bug is this under? 17199?
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# [07:04] <hober> markw: arguably yes
# [07:04] <hober> ... with the CLOSED state, we could declare the messaging in that case done, which just leaves recovering pre-existing sessions
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# [07:04] <paulc> Key releas MRDV (minimum required to declare victory) is in bug 17199: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17199
# [07:04] <ddorwin> q+
# [07:04] * Zakim sees markw, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [07:04] <hober> ack markw
# [07:04] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [07:04] <ddorwin> ack markw
# [07:05] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
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# [07:05] <hober> ddorwin: there are various other scenarios that we're not targeting here
# [07:06] <hober> [...scribe missed...]
# [07:06] <hober> ddorwin: there's a whole host of other issues we may need to deal with
# [07:06] <ddorwin> ack m
# [07:06] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [07:06] <ddorwin> ack me
# [07:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [07:06] * hober ddorwin: i missed most of that; please flesh out minutes
# [07:07] <hober> adrianba: sounds like mark is happy to do the editing work for this
# [07:07] <hober> markw: we need to decide what we want to do first
# [07:07] <hober> adrianba: build a strawman and add it; people will file bugs on it
# [07:07] <hober> ddorwin: section 5 is just sitting there; need to revisit after this
# [07:08] <hober> paulc: looks like 17199 is on markw
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# [07:08] <hober> ... media tf meets in ~2 weeks
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# [07:08] <hober> ... please send agenda info on this to the list
# [07:09] <hober> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23828
# [07:09] <hober> ddorwin: this is related to the source element
# [07:09] <hober> ... how to most reliably get best performance across impls
# [07:09] <hober> ... you can get that with source element instead of js
# [07:10] <hober> ... this bug suggests to create new media keys with the key system when you have a source element match
# [07:10] <hober> ... implicitly run when source element is selected
# [07:11] <hober> adrianba: it seems like a simple change
# [07:11] <hober> paulc: what haven't we touched?
# [07:12] <hober> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19156
# [07:12] <hober> ddorwin: did this yesterday
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# [07:12] <paulc> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19156#c9
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# [07:13] <hober> s/19156/20991/
# [07:13] <hober> s/19156/20991/
# [07:13] <hober> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19156
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# [07:13] <hober> ddorwin: we added the suggested text and removed some old incompatible text
# [07:13] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20991 for previous discussion
# [07:13] <hober> ... this discussion led to the new <source> bug we just talked about (23828)
# [07:14] <hober> adrianba: wanted people to know we've done this work
# [07:14] <hober> ... and how we arrived at the followup questions
# [07:14] <hober> ddorwin: we closed some other bugs during the meeting
# [07:15] <hober> [bug math]
# [07:15] <hober> paulc: we're making progress
# [07:15] <hober> ... these 15 bugs are all in progress
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# [07:15] <hober> ... any specific ones you want review on?
# [07:15] <hober> ddorwin: the error codes one
# [07:15] <hober> paulc: getting the granularity correct
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# [07:16] <hober> ddorwin: yes
# [07:16] <paulc> Thread on error codes would be good to get input on: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Nov/0011.html
# [07:16] <hober> ddorwin: we want to make sure the error codes we define have use cases
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# [07:16] <hober> ... error codes that an application can actually do something with
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# [07:17] <WayneCarr> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [07:17] <Zakim> apparently HTML_WG()8:00PM has ended, WayneCarr
# [07:17] <hober> adrianba: it's not whether to signal an error, but when to distinguish errors
# [07:17] <Zakim> On IRC I see Noriya_, rniwa, mark_vickers, taocai, kotakagi, igarashi2, jjj, nkic, ChristianFuhrhop, WayneCarr, darobin, Travis, yohsumi, annevk, shoko, Zac, sunyang, markw,
# [07:17] <Zakim> ... kuroawa, aizu, paulc, gwm, ddorwin, Youngsun_Ryu, adrianba, Eliot
# [07:17] <hober> ... is an app going to display something different to the user when it sees a different error code?
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# [07:18] <paulc> rrsagent, gernerate minutes
# [07:18] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'gernerate minutes', paulc. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [07:18] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [07:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
# [07:18] <hober> adrianba: we haven't yet talked about bug 21854
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# [07:19] <hober> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21854
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# [07:20] <hober> adrianba: we're debating : should an application be able to call update at any point?
# [07:20] <hober> ... my proposal is that we should be precise about when you're allowed to call update
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# [07:20] <hober> ... ddorwin has some cases where he would like more flexibility
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# [07:21] <hober> adrianba: we talked about all the other bugs yesterday
# [07:21] <hober> paulc: yes
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# [07:21] <hober> topic : adjournment
# [07:22] <hober> paulc: thank you everyone for attending
# [07:22] <hober> ... neither the wg nor the media tf are meeting next week
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# [07:22] <hober> ... i encourage people who participated in the canvas discussion to join the a11y tf call on thursday
# [07:22] <hober> ... still haven't decided what the plan is for the next F2F
# [07:22] <hober> ... likely to be in the spring
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# [07:23] <hober> ... other working groups are interested in colocating
# [07:23] <hober> ... we'll start planning in more detail in december
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# [07:23] <hober> daniel_austin: ebay hosted 5 wgs last spring, including html and webapps
# [07:24] <hober> ... we'd be more than happy to do it again this coming spring
# [07:24] <hober> paulc: thank you for the offer!
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# [07:24] <hober> ... we are adjourned
# [07:24] <hober> RRSAgent: make minutes
# [07:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/14-html-wg-minutes.html hober
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# [17:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 3 new commits to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/a43f5fb21c05...61c8f70f00ad
# [17:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/feature/whatwg 4ec120e ianh: [giow] (2) Move javascript: processing entirely into HTML, and fix its definitions to match reality better at the same time....
# [17:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/feature/whatwg fac6cac ianh: [giow] (2) Define the task settings for the javascript: task...
# [17:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/feature/whatwg 61c8f70 ianh: [e] (0) Mention that scripted changes don't fire 'input' and 'change' on <input>....
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# [22:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 2 new commits to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/61c8f70f00ad...1bdfd7cc1975
# [22:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/feature/whatwg 2391b70 ianh: [e] (0) Clean up how we describe the 'delay the load event' logic for loading nested iframes...
# [22:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/feature/whatwg 1bdfd7c ianh: [giow] (2) imageSmoothingEnabled logic was backwards, oops...
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# [23:41] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to feature/whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/28a110cbe716a4440c022ceafca088781d5e3ca0
# [23:41] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/feature/whatwg 28a110c ianh: [giow] (3) Handle the case of removing the 'src' attribute on a live <iframe>, and some minor clarity changes....
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# Session Close: Sat Nov 16 00:00:00 2013

The end :)