/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2014-04-08 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  34. # [03:23] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] silviapfeiffer pushed 1 new commit to CR: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/3ed2f459ba285575c683e2b1be62c7337a959b93
  35. # [03:23] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/CR 3ed2f45 Silvia Pfeiffer: Fix a merge error: re-add "track" attribute on TextTrackCue...
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  97. # [18:15] <jaymunro> anyone on
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  99. # [18:15] <abraud> present+ Arnaud_Braud
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  101. # [18:15] * MarkS here
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  103. # [18:15] <paulc> PaulC is here
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  106. # [18:15] <plh> zakim, list conferences?
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  112. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> radio check
  113. # [18:15] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
  114. # [18:15] * Zakim sorry, plh, I don't know what conference this is
  115. # [18:15] * Zakim sees on irc: gavin, zqzhang, paulc, AAA_awright, jaymunro, adrianba, darobin, krisk, plh, abraud, gsnedders, Lachy, stommepoes, anssik, janina, yoav, arronei, heycam, cabanier,
  116. # [18:15] * Zakim ... decadance, johndrinkwater, Josh_Soref_, pdr, timeless_, cwilso_, slightlyoff, tobie__, mattur, paul___irish, jgraham, jmb, MarkS, Philip, logbot, stryx`, Hixie, ed,
  117. # [18:15] * Zakim ... krijnhoetmer, MikeSmith, trackbot
  118. # [18:15] <plh> zakim, list conferences?
  119. # [18:15] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, plh.
  120. # [18:15] <plh> zakim, list conferences
  121. # [18:15] <Zakim> I see T&S_DNTC()12:00PM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM, WAI_WCAG()11:00AM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM active
  122. # [18:15] <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are Team_(csvw)15:55Z, RWC_PEWG()11:00AM
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  133. # [18:17] * MikeSmith notes we're missing hober
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  137. # [18:17] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/08-html-wg-irc
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  139. # [18:17] <plh> Regrets: Mark Watson, John Jansen
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  141. # [18:18] * rubys waves
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  143. # [18:18] <plh> Topic: Agenda bashing
  144. # [18:18] <plh> scribe: nick
  145. # [18:18] <plh> scribe: plh
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  150. # [18:20] <plh> Paul: we have 9-10:15, 10:30- 12, 1-3, 3:15-5
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  154. # [18:20] <plh> Paul: we were approached for fixed timeslot on Wednesday 2pm
  155. # [18:20] <plh> ... from the IAB
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  161. # [18:23] <plh> Paul: Wednesday morning is EME and MSE
  162. # [18:23] <plh> ... from 9:00-12:00
  163. # [18:23] <plh> ... some of them will phone in tomorrow
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  165. # [18:23] <plh> ... we'll to send a reminder for how to connect
  166. # [18:24] <plh> ... David Darwin sent a detailed list of outstanding bugs
  167. # [18:26] <plh> ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Apr/0051.html
  168. # [18:26] <plh> ... we'll start with MSE, then do EME
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  170. # [18:26] <plh> ... [Paul going through the list]
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  173. # [18:26] <plh> ... http://w3c.github.io/html/test-results/less-than-2.html
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  176. # [18:26] <plh> ... for date/time, we'll wait for Tantek
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  179. # [18:26] <plh> Robin: would be good to have Travis for those
  180. # [18:26] <plh> Paul: Travis is away...
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  182. # [18:27] <plh> Adrian: I've got some note from him, would need input from i18n folks
  183. # [18:27] <plh> Paul: [continuing through the list]
  184. # [18:28] * plh otes that if we have remote folks, please let us know and we'll get the bridge
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  186. # [18:29] <plh> Paul: [trying to collect data on agenda items length]
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  188. # [18:29] <plh> Robin: 15 minutes for DOM4 update
  189. # [18:29] <plh> Mark: 15 minutes for Canvas2D CR
  190. # [18:30] <plh> Paul: anything to do on canvas2d level 2?
  191. # [18:31] <plh> Jay: nothing to discuss on level 2 today
  192. # [18:33] <plh> Paul: one hour + timeslot for testing, norm references, featurs at risk
  193. # [18:33] <plh> Paul: datetime depends on Tantek
  194. # [18:33] <plh> ... also for divergence item
  195. # [18:33] <plh> ... I'll give that a 30 minutes slot
  196. # [18:34] <plh> ... Other specs: (extensions and LCs) 30 minutes
  197. # [18:34] <plh> ... (changing to 90 minutes for HTML 5.0)
  198. # [18:34] <plh> ... HTML 5.1 (60 minutes)
  199. # [18:35] <plh> ... let's start with DOM4 and Canvas2D
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  201. # [18:35] <plh> ... {Paul edits the agenda]
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  205. # [18:36] <plh> ... HTML 5.0 from 10:30 to 12:00 today
  206. # [18:37] <plh> ... divergence and WG culture and participation at 13:00-14:00
  207. # [18:37] <plh> ... 14:00-15:00 for other specs (extensions and LC)
  208. # [18:38] <plh> ... 15:15 to 16:15 for HTML 5.1
  209. # [18:38] <plh> ... 16:15 to 17:00 is overflow
  210. # [18:40] <plh> ... [folks should reload the agenda page]
  211. # [18:40] <plh> ... tomorrow at 1pm for datetime item
  212. # [18:41] <plh> ... tomorrow might be overflow for HTML 5.0 discussion
  213. # [18:41] <plh> ... at 3pm
  214. # [18:42] <plh> Topic: Canvas 2D Level 1
  215. # [18:42] <plh> Paul: lots of the heavy lifting has been done already, but let's get an update
  216. # [18:43] <plh> ... we have http://tinyurl.com/pjbhuj3
  217. # [18:43] <plh> ... http://tinyurl.com/o6xb946
  218. # [18:43] <plh> ... zero bugs outstanding
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  220. # [18:44] <paulc> waves
  221. # [18:44] * plh waves
  222. # [18:44] <plh> Mark: back in september, we looked at the CR document
  223. # [18:44] <plh> ... some things were missing
  224. # [18:44] <plh> ... focus ring and hit region
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  226. # [18:45] <plh> ... focus is critical for keyboard user
  227. # [18:45] <plh> ... and hit region for a11y api
  228. # [18:45] <plh> ... so we formed a subgroup
  229. # [18:45] <plh> ... we made progress on a weekly basis
  230. # [18:45] <plh> ... we tried to achieve both
  231. # [18:45] <plh> ... drawFocusIfNeeded
  232. # [18:46] <plh> ... once we finished that, Mozilla attempted to implement and didn't like the approach
  233. # [18:46] <plh> ... so we worked ona hit region based solution
  234. # [18:46] <plh> ... was a rather complicated section of the spec
  235. # [18:46] <plh> ... Mozilla demonstrated a quick prototype
  236. # [18:46] <plh> ... we reduced hit regions to something easy to implement
  237. # [18:46] <plh> ... while maintaining forward compatibility
  238. # [18:47] <plh> ... and we're in a good sape
  239. # [18:47] <plh> s/sape/shape/
  240. # [18:47] <paulc> Open Canvas2D CR Bugs - CR keyword - zero bugs http://tinyurl.com/pjbhuj3
  241. # [18:47] <plh> ... a few clarifications to make, will go over them with Jay today
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  243. # [18:47] <plh> ... so should be able to move to LC next week
  244. # [18:47] <plh> Paul: plan is to take it back to LC
  245. # [18:47] <plh> ... 4 weeks
  246. # [18:48] <plh> ... disclosure is a long pole
  247. # [18:48] <plh> ... won't be able to move to PR within 60 days
  248. # [18:48] <plh> ... we don't expect substantive comments on the LC
  249. # [18:48] <plh> ... current CR had several at risk features
  250. # [18:49] <plh> ... we got rid of them through a bug
  251. # [18:49] <plh> ... so adding the hit region material. they have at most one implementation currently. so hit region itself will be at risk.
  252. # [18:49] <plh> ... otherwise we would be blocked and have to go to LC again to remove it
  253. # [18:50] <plh> ... it's a standalone section
  254. # [18:50] <plh> ... Jay and Mark will give a stable draft this week
  255. # [18:50] <plh> ... then we'll do a CfC for LC
  256. # [18:51] <plh> ... targeting publication on or before April 22
  257. # [18:52] <krisk> * test
  258. # [18:52] <plh> ... this means LC ends May 20 or earlier
  259. # [18:52] <plh> ... since we won't skip CR, we won't say anything in the status
  260. # [18:53] <plh> ... on CR length, let's hold for that on the HTML 5 discussion
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  262. # [18:54] * plh notes that if people want to attend remotely, they should tell us
  263. # [18:54] <krisk> * hint johnjan if you want to talk about webdriver and web platform tests at a certain time
  264. # [18:55] <plh> Paul: most important item is the second implementation for hit region
  265. # [18:55] <plh> ... test results
  266. # [18:55] <plh> ... at a previous HTML Group meeting
  267. # [18:55] <plh> ... http://www.w3.org/html/test/results/2dcontext/
  268. # [18:55] <JohnJansen> I'm on IRC and would like to call in when the test status discussion starts
  269. # [18:56] <plh> ... is there a plan to get these test results updated?
  270. # [18:56] <plh> Robin: I can do that
  271. # [18:56] <plh> ACTION: Robin to provide updated results for Canvas 2D Level 1
  272. # [18:56] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  273. # [18:56] <trackbot> Created ACTION-238 - Provide updated results for canvas 2d level 1 [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-15].
  274. # [18:57] * RRSAgent records action 1
  275. # [18:57] * jgraham If you discuss the mechanics of testing (rather than just the results/Process requirements), ping me and I will try to follow along
  276. # [18:58] <plh> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/2dcontext/drawing-paths-to-the-canvas
  277. # [18:58] * hober jgraham: will do
  278. # [18:58] * plh jgraham, roger
  279. # [19:02] <plh> Paul: on canvas results, the sense was that we had enough data, modulo hit regions
  280. # [19:02] <plh> ... so Robin will just udpate the results
  281. # [19:03] <plh> ... so only thing on critical path is the second implementation of hit region
  282. # [19:03] <plh> Glenn: and if we don't get it?
  283. # [19:03] <plh> Paul: several possibility: extension spec, level 2 only, (I don't think we want to consider dropping it)
  284. # [19:04] <plh> ... then criteria will be trade-off between waiting or having the REC
  285. # [19:04] <plh> ... we'll mark hit regions at risk in the LC and the CR
  286. # [19:04] <plh> Topic: DOM4 LC results
  287. # [19:05] <plh> ... https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=DOM4&list_id=34640&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced
  288. # [19:05] <plh> ... bugs are resolved
  289. # [19:05] <plh> Robin: initially, I subsetted the DOM WHATWG spec to remove Promises
  290. # [19:06] <plh> ... but then it got removed from DOM WHATWG as well, so we're back in sync
  291. # [19:06] <plh> q+
  292. # [19:06] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  293. # [19:07] <plh> [looking at http://w3c.github.io/dom/]
  294. # [19:07] <plh> Robin: we have red in the status section
  295. # [19:08] <plh> w3c.github.io/dom/test-results/less-than-2.html#test-file-44
  296. # [19:08] <plh> ... we have warnings in the spec
  297. # [19:08] <plh> ... I would expect to survive CR and be in the Recommendation
  298. # [19:10] <plh> plh: DOMError will go away. What does it mean?
  299. # [19:10] <plh> Tantek: +1
  300. # [19:10] <plh> Robin: we can rephrasing it
  301. # [19:11] <plh> ACTION: Robin to rephrase the warnings in DOM4
  302. # [19:11] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  303. # [19:11] * RRSAgent records action 2
  304. # [19:11] <trackbot> Created ACTION-239 - Rephrase the warnings in dom4 [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-15].
  305. # [19:11] <plh> Tantek: "will go away" is confusing indeed for implementers
  306. # [19:12] <plh> http://w3c.github.io/dom/#collections:-elements
  307. # [19:13] <plh> ACTION: Robin to look at the WebIDL http://w3c.github.io/dom/#collections:-elements
  308. # [19:13] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  309. # [19:13] * RRSAgent records action 3
  310. # [19:13] <trackbot> Created ACTION-240 - Look at the webidl http://w3c.github.io/dom/#collections:-elements [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-15].
  311. # [19:14] <plh> Paul: DOM test suite results
  312. # [19:14] <plh> http://w3c.github.io/dom/test-results/less-than-2.html
  313. # [19:14] <plh> Robin: the situation improved a lot since I sent my messages
  314. # [19:15] <plh> ... 181/47132 (0.38%)
  315. # [19:15] <plh> ... this is a good test suite but of course not perfect
  316. # [19:15] <plh> ... some of the them are disputable
  317. # [19:15] <plh> ... like historical tests
  318. # [19:15] <plh> ... the spec doesn't require folks to remove features
  319. # [19:15] <plh> ... a bunch of interfaces that fail
  320. # [19:16] <plh> ... some WebIDL bugs
  321. # [19:16] <plh> ... events related tests
  322. # [19:16] <plh> ... tests results are good enough
  323. # [19:16] <rubys> s/some WebIDL bugs/some alleged WebIDL bugs/
  324. # [19:17] <plh> http://w3c.github.io/dom/#interface-nodelist
  325. # [19:18] <plh> Paul: is it an at risk feature?
  326. # [19:18] <plh> Robin: yes, that's a candidate
  327. # [19:18] <plh> Paul: any other?
  328. # [19:19] <plh> Plh: both NodeList and Elements don't support Array :(
  329. # [19:19] <plh> Robin: 5.2.6 might be dropped
  330. # [19:21] <plh> [discussion on whether we can support ArrayClass]
  331. # [19:21] <plh> [implementers are shaking their heads on making progress on this]
  332. # [19:22] <plh> Paul: so, we'll need the list of at risk features, 5.2.6 and ArrayClass on 5.2.7
  333. # [19:22] <plh> ... we'll need the action items looked at
  334. # [19:22] <plh> ... what length for CR?
  335. # [19:23] <plh> Plh: 4 weeks?
  336. # [19:23] <plh> Paul: let's pick 4 weeks at the minimum
  337. # [19:23] <plh> ... we'll get an updated draft from Robin
  338. # [19:23] <plh> ... with cleanup text and at risk features
  339. # [19:24] <plh> ACTION: Robin to provide an updated draft for DOM4
  340. # [19:24] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  341. # [19:24] * RRSAgent records action 4
  342. # [19:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-241 - Provide an updated draft for dom4 [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-15].
  343. # [19:25] <plh> Ted: Sylvia has limited ability to attend, can we talk about DataCue at 1pm?
  344. # [19:26] <plh> [Paul updates agenda to include DataCue at 1pm today]
  345. # [19:26] <plh> [break for 10 minutes]
  346. # [19:29] <JohnJansen> trying to call in but 4865 is 'not a valid code'
  347. # [19:29] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
  348. # [19:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/08-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
  349. # [19:30] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  350. # [19:30] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to gh-pages: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/0f2107d4e61c82b0b324226137306d6c9f684787
  351. # [19:30] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/gh-pages 0f2107d Robin Berjon: add canvas results
  352. # [19:30] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  353. # [19:32] * Joins: wonsuk_ (~wonsuk@public.cloak)
  354. # [19:34] * denis_ is now known as denis
  355. # [19:35] * Joins: tH (~Rob@public.cloak)
  356. # [19:37] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  357. # [19:37] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] erikadoyle pushed 1 new commit to gh-pages: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/dd718c650eb596d5a29e9949ccff057fb39f1820
  358. # [19:37] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/gh-pages dd718c6 Erika Doyle Navara: IE11 results for canvas and html suites
  359. # [19:37] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  360. # [19:39] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  361. # [19:39] <jgraham> gitbot says WG calls break: work starts
  362. # [19:41] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  363. # [19:41] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to gh-pages: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/9eb337b756007a6c224075265a233cccfa406775
  364. # [19:41] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/gh-pages 9eb337b Robin Berjon: add WebKit results
  365. # [19:41] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  366. # [19:48] <krisk> * test...
  367. # [19:51] <plh> zakim, room for 5?
  368. # [19:51] <Zakim> ok, plh; conference Team_(html-wg)17:52Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 1852Z
  369. # [19:52] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
  370. # [19:52] <cyns> scribe: cyns
  371. # [19:52] * rubys JohnJansen try 26632
  372. # [19:52] <cyns> PC: moved datacue to 1:00 to accomodate Silva
  373. # [19:53] <cyns> PC: moved datetime to a 30 minute slot at the end of today, and added 30 minutes tomorrow for dom 4 test results.
  374. # [19:53] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)17:52Z has now started
  375. # [19:53] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  376. # [19:53] <JohnJansen> 26632 worked, but I'm alone.
  377. # [19:54] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  378. # [19:54] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  379. # [19:54] <cyns> Philipe is crawling around fixing the phone :)
  380. # [19:54] <JohnJansen> video?
  381. # [19:54] <darobin> the new DOM4 results http://w3c.github.io/dom/test-results/less-than-2.html
  382. # [19:54] <Zakim> +[Paypal]
  383. # [19:54] * darobin edoyle --^
  384. # [19:55] <MarkS> present+ MarkS
  385. # [19:55] <cyns> TOPIC: HTML 5.0 status and time table, testing results
  386. # [19:56] <darobin> http://w3c.github.io/html/test-results/less-than-2.html
  387. # [19:56] <cyns> Robin: link to results report on tests with <2 passes
  388. # [19:57] <cyns> PC: document with all results is very large
  389. # [19:57] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  390. # [19:57] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  391. # [19:57] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to gh-pages: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/de6c91af615e17e2ef5ea98767e3785ea7d04419
  392. # [19:57] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/gh-pages de6c91a Robin Berjon: updated results
  393. # [19:57] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  394. # [19:57] <tantek> greetings from the IRC web interface
  395. # [19:58] <cyns> robin: 9% failure rate
  396. # [19:59] <cyns> PC: why did it change from 4% to 9%
  397. # [20:00] <cyns> robin: results for IE were actually results for firefox
  398. # [20:00] * Joins: glenn (~glenn@public.cloak)
  399. # [20:00] <cyns> testing chrome 36, ff30, ie11, presto engine from opera because it predates the blink fork
  400. # [20:01] <cyns> pc: couldn't use the current opera browser because it uses blink and isn't an independent implementation
  401. # [20:01] <cyns> robin: also webki
  402. # [20:01] <cyns> s/webki webkit
  403. # [20:01] <paulc> Test files with failures: 480; Subtests with fewer than 2 passes: 13712; Failure level: 13712/142441 (9.63%)
  404. # [20:01] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  405. # [20:02] <cyns> PC: what does this tell us about our status?
  406. # [20:05] <plh> 7.86% of the failures are due to WebIDL failures
  407. # [20:07] * Joins: cyns_ (~cyns@public.cloak)
  408. # [20:07] <cyns_> scribe: cyns_
  409. # [20:07] <cyns_> PC: what is the likelyhood that an end user would ever trip across this corner case
  410. # [20:08] <cyns_> chris: a lot of these are in reflection
  411. # [20:08] <cyns_> robin: for example, set every value in the idl to infinity, and see if the error handling is right. If you fail that, you will fail thougsands of tests
  412. # [20:08] <JohnJansen> s/chris/kris
  413. # [20:09] * Quits: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  414. # [20:09] <cyns_> mc: if these are testing webidl more than html, maybe we should remove it from this test suite
  415. # [20:09] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
  416. # [20:09] <cyns_> pc: specs sometimes mean implemenation defined or implementation dependent
  417. # [20:09] <cyns_> s/ mc ms
  418. # [20:10] <cyns_> pc: if we did that, then that might be grounds for taking the tests out.
  419. # [20:10] <cyns_> sr: can we do that?
  420. # [20:11] * Joins: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak)
  421. # [20:11] <cyns_> plh: webidl has 2 sections, one on syntax and one on how to bind in javascript
  422. # [20:12] <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/webstorage/#dependencies
  423. # [20:12] <cyns_> plh: we had a problem like that for webstorage, we used a sentence in the seciton on dependencies
  424. # [20:12] <plh> The IDL blocks in this specification are conforming IDL fragments as defined by the WebIDL specification. [WEBIDL]
  425. # [20:13] <cyns_> plh: effectively in html5 we are using webidl syntax, but we're not doing well on binding those semantics
  426. # [20:13] * darobin points jgraham to look the other way :)
  427. # [20:13] <cyns_> pc: i don't think the scenarios we were talking about have to do with javascript bindings. it's about failures in boundary test cases and that they are multiplicitive
  428. # [20:14] <cyns_> pc: that doesn't have to do with the bindings, but about the values being past in the tests
  429. # [20:14] <cyns_> plh: the windows bindings to javacript, for example, will never pass because they are 20 years old and yet are core to teh web
  430. # [20:15] <cyns_> pc: if we take those 9 or 10 rows of test results out, then we are down 1.77% failure rate. What does that tell us?
  431. # [20:15] <cyns_> robin: we're pretty close to home
  432. # [20:15] <cyns_> pc: what do we tell the director about the number and bredth and number of tests?
  433. # [20:16] <cyns_> robin: we have set a record for the number tests for a w3c spec. granted 2% of 150,000 tests is a lot of failures. However, many of these are corner cases or at-risk items that haven't been removed from teh test cases.
  434. # [20:17] <cyns_> robin: list of at risk features is from when we entered cr, and needs update
  435. # [20:17] <cyns_> robin: media element rows 62-144 has a lot of things that aren't implemented well.
  436. # [20:18] <cyns_> PC: media is kind of important...
  437. # [20:18] <cyns_> robin: yes, this needs more investigation. some of these are going to be problems with tests, but others are likely real faiures.
  438. # [20:19] <cyns_> PC: plan 2014 has another last call, but not another CR.
  439. # [20:19] <cyns_> plh: or marked at risk in last call.
  440. # [20:19] <cyns_> PC: at risk and last call don't match for me
  441. # [20:19] <cyns_> robin: I think it works process-wise
  442. # [20:19] <cyns_> plh: +1
  443. # [20:20] <cyns_> pc: need to identify all the sets of tests that are failing
  444. # [20:20] <krisk> http://w3c-test.org/html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding is another item to note for possible at risk feature
  445. # [20:20] <cyns_> robin: need to make sure that tests that are reporting false are correct
  446. # [20:20] <cyns_> pc: can you point us to the html5 spec subsections that are the culprits?
  447. # [20:21] <cyns_> robin: text tracks
  448. # [20:21] <cyns_> ms: oncuechange
  449. # [20:21] <cyns_> ms: that is part of text track
  450. # [20:21] <jgraham> That query-encoding test is buggy
  451. # [20:22] <jgraham> I pushed a PR today, although I'm not sure it fixes the whole problem
  452. # [20:22] <plh> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/embedded-content-0.html#timed-text-tracks
  453. # [20:22] <cyns_> glen: text track cue constructor should not be supported... this is a questionable test, testing whether something from an earlier draft has been deprecated. row 62
  454. # [20:23] <cyns_> glen: this test is producing a lot of failures, but I don't know if it's essential to test. the old version could be there without impacting interoperability of new features
  455. # [20:24] <cyns_> PC: we need a definitive list of features that we may need to cut. let's put that on the agenda for tomorrow.
  456. # [20:24] <cyns_> robin: i will try to compile that list
  457. # [20:24] <paulc> CR exit criteria: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit/
  458. # [20:25] <cyns_> ACTION: darobin to compile list of sections of html5 spec that are failing tests
  459. # [20:25] * RRSAgent records action 5
  460. # [20:25] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  461. # [20:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-242 - Compile list of sections of html5 spec that are failing tests [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-15].
  462. # [20:25] <cyns_> robin: this document reflects an up to date view of the quality of the test suite
  463. # [20:26] <cyns_> pc: previous data tells us how we're doing on the tests we have, this one tell us where we need more tests
  464. # [20:26] <cyns_> plh: this is from april 2013
  465. # [20:26] <cyns_> pc: these show areas where we needed more coverage. where do we stand on this
  466. # [20:27] <cyns_> plh: a year ago we thought we needed more testing, for example for 2.4.5. The checks say that we now thing we have enough tests.
  467. # [20:28] <cyns_> robin: no, the green ones are where the group said we didn't need tests. green + check means we don't need tests but we have them. purple with check means we need and have tests.
  468. # [20:28] <cyns_> pc: so I need to look for ones without checkmarks.
  469. # [20:30] <cyns_> 3.1.4 loading xml documents is priority, no check, needs tests and doesn't have them.
  470. # [20:30] <cyns_> robin: in most of these cases, we have pull requests that need reviewing
  471. # [20:30] <cyns_> pc: that will give us tests, but not results or implemenations
  472. # [20:31] <cyns_> plh: section 5 is not well tests at all
  473. # [20:31] <MarkS> q+ to ask what differentiates sections with a priority flag and without
  474. # [20:31] * Zakim sees plh, MarkS on the speaker queue
  475. # [20:31] <cyns_> robin: for most of these, I think we will be good soon. loading xml is a feature we're likely to drop. many others have open pull requests. section 5 is our weekness
  476. # [20:32] <cyns_> glen: a lot of these are new features to html5
  477. # [20:32] <cyns_> robin: not necesarily
  478. # [20:32] <plh> #769, #773, #660, #634, #521, #612
  479. # [20:32] <cyns_> robin: obviously anything new needs to be tested, but a lot of the purple lines are things where we knew there were historical issues
  480. # [20:33] <cyns_> robin: section 5 is about the window object. the rules were never written down before, and everyone does it differently.
  481. # [20:33] <cyns_> plh: pasted in pull request numbers that are waiting.
  482. # [20:33] <glenn> s/glen/glenn/g
  483. # [20:33] <cyns_> pc: 38 rows that have the word 'priority' in them
  484. # [20:34] <cyns_> robin: most in section 5
  485. # [20:34] <krisk> 22 of the 38 are in section 5
  486. # [20:34] <plh> #463
  487. # [20:34] <cyns_> pc: these 38 rows, we need tests, we need results, and then we need to evaluate the results to see if we have implementations
  488. # [20:34] <cyns_> pc: so, what are we going to about these? are we going to do anything?
  489. # [20:35] <cyns_> robin: a number of section 5 items have tests that need reviewing
  490. # [20:35] <plh> 660, 634, 521, 612
  491. # [20:35] <plh> section 5.1, 5.2
  492. # [20:35] <plh> section 5.7
  493. # [20:36] <darobin> sections 5.1.6, 5.2, 5.2.3, 5.2.4, 5.5.2, 5.5.3, 5.6.4, 5.6.6, 5.6.11 have tests that need reviewing
  494. # [20:36] <cyns_> pc: do these pull requests decrease the number from 38?
  495. # [20:36] <cyns_> plh: yes, but not to 0.
  496. # [20:36] <cyns_> plh: decrease by not more than 30%
  497. # [20:37] <cyns_> pc: this seems like a high priority item
  498. # [20:37] <cyns_> robin: section 5 is our ship problem, other things we have a clear plan
  499. # [20:37] <cyns_> glenn: section 8?
  500. # [20:37] <cyns_> robin: that's parsing, and it's well tested
  501. # [20:41] * Quits: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  502. # [20:41] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24812 Features at risk bug
  503. # [20:42] <paulc> See Robin's response in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24812
  504. # [20:42] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24812#c11
  505. # [20:42] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
  506. # [20:43] <rubys> > * Application Cache This is interoperably implemented and should not be removed.
  507. # [20:43] <rubys> > * <dialog> There is movement on implementation, but it's not clear that it'll make the cut
  508. # [20:43] <tantek> Deprecate appcache maybe?
  509. # [20:43] <tantek> or is it already?
  510. # [20:44] * Quits: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  511. # [20:44] * Quits: cyns_ (~cyns@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  512. # [20:45] <krisk> * Test
  513. # [20:45] <tantek> I see krisk * Test
  514. # [20:45] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
  515. # [20:45] <cyns> scribe: cyns
  516. # [20:45] <cyns> plh: do we have any successful tests with dialog?
  517. # [20:46] <cyns> robin: show modal, also fail
  518. # [20:46] <cyns> plh: that will tell us how far we are. do we have even 1 implmentation
  519. # [20:47] <cyns> pc: when are you going to go into last call? how long will we wait? we want to go into last call in june
  520. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> At Risk with Extreme Prejudice
  521. # [20:48] * Joins: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak)
  522. # [20:50] <cyns> pc: want to come out of this meeting with: no bugs, no issues (currently there?), minimum problems with normative references, ideally no at risk features. plan 2014 says rec in 4th quarter. tests, results and implemenations must happen over the summer. If we don't have that, then we are dead, or have to take out feature.
  523. # [20:50] <cyns> PC: with that in mind, we've said: let's remove app cache.
  524. # [20:50] <cyns> pc: what do we do with dialog?
  525. # [20:50] <cyns> robin: 2 options. take it out now, or at the last minute
  526. # [20:50] <cyns> plh: only 2 tests
  527. # [20:50] <cyns> robin: other tests in other places
  528. # [20:50] <krisk> http://w3c.github.io/html/test-results/less-than-2.html#test-file-285 dialog info
  529. # [20:51] <cyns> pc: let's look at all the tests first. table dialog
  530. # [20:51] <rubys> > * <details> and <summary> Irrespective of the source of the implementations, they still fail some pretty basic tests like html/semantics/interfaces.html.
  531. # [20:51] <cyns> pc: details and summary.
  532. # [20:51] <tantek> btw re: dialog and Gecko - you can track "status" here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=840640
  533. # [20:51] * Quits: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  534. # [20:52] <cyns> ms: there was alate bug about interactive content inside summary element, which makes a problem about where the click is.
  535. # [20:53] <tantek> details & summary are not implemented in Gecko. status here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=591737
  536. # [20:54] <rubys> > * <input type=color> Supported in both Chrome and pre-Blink Opera.
  537. # [20:54] <cyns> cyns: there is another issue around details/summary, which is that it was one replacement for the @summary attribute on table.
  538. # [20:54] <cyns> pc: input type color
  539. # [20:55] <plh> 4.10.5.1.14 Color state (type=color)
  540. # [20:55] <plh> pull request #773
  541. # [20:56] <tantek> input type=color appears to be partially implemented in Gecko, status of what's implemented vs. what's left to be implemented can be found here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=547004
  542. # [20:56] <cyns> pc: what are we going to do with the at risk items that need testing and don't have tests?
  543. # [20:57] <cyns> plh: we do have a pull request.
  544. # [20:57] <cyns> kris: color will either work or not work. it won't be complicated like app cache
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  555. # [21:07] <SteveF> re: summary details implementation - no implementations as defined in spec
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  561. # [22:00] <paulc> waves
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  564. # [22:02] <paulc> Topic: Datacue discussion
  565. # [22:02] * rubys waves
  566. # [22:02] <krisk> scribe: krisk
  567. # [22:04] * Joins: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak)
  568. # [22:04] <plh> s/Datacue/DataCue/
  569. # [22:04] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  570. # [22:04] * Joins: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak)
  571. # [22:05] <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
  572. # [22:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], [Paypal]
  573. # [22:05] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
  574. # [22:05] <paulc> We are waiting for Sylvia.
  575. # [22:05] <krisk> hober: Here is a summary of the proposal
  576. # [22:05] <krisk> ...it's in the spec section
  577. # [22:06] <krisk> .....4.7.10.12.6 Test Tracks exposing meta data
  578. # [22:06] <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content.html#datacue
  579. # [22:06] <plh> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/embedded-content-0.html#text-tracks-exposing-in-band-metadata
  580. # [22:07] <paulc> 4.7.10.12.6 Text tracks exposing in-band metadata
  581. # [22:07] <krisk> hober: The idea is that sites streaming media an stream custom metadata
  582. # [22:07] * Joins: jdsmith (~jdsmith@public.cloak)
  583. # [22:07] <krisk> hober: It can be text or custom for the page author
  584. # [22:08] <krisk> hober: Normally metadata is decoded by the browser(s)
  585. # [22:08] <krisk> hober; I3 for example has data about the show, or the teams playing and the score
  586. # [22:09] <krisk> Hober: We like to be a bit more like xhr where we can expose a document, or blob
  587. # [22:09] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  588. # [22:10] <krisk> hober: we don't want to have then take time to decode the data buffer
  589. # [22:10] * Parts: stommepoes (~stommepoes@public.cloak) (stommepoes)
  590. # [22:11] <krisk> glenn: The generic use and specific should be seperate use cases
  591. # [22:11] <krisk> glenn: Having other metadata to help the user agent decode would be good
  592. # [22:12] <krisk> hober: The first case seems fine, I'm only talking about the latter
  593. # [22:13] * plh wonders how one gets a DataCue in the first place
  594. # [22:13] <krisk> mjs: Does the user agent have a way to determine the data stream?
  595. # [22:13] * Joins: SteveF (~SteveF@public.cloak)
  596. # [22:13] <krisk> krisk: An attribute exists that has this information
  597. # [22:15] * plh sees http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/embedded-content-0.html#dom-texttrack-inbandmetadatatrackdispatchtype
  598. # [22:15] * plh but still doesn't doesn't ow to get the DataCue itself?
  599. # [22:16] <krisk> hober: basically just change from arraybuffer to any
  600. # [22:16] <krisk> glenn: what is raw data? framing and payload?
  601. # [22:18] <krisk> glenn: what if we wanted to expose more than one type?
  602. # [22:18] * Joins: xiaoqian (xiaoqian@public.cloak)
  603. # [22:19] <krisk> glenn: I though .text was kept for backward compat
  604. # [22:20] <krisk> The current is useful, if it's plain text you need to extract from arraybuffer
  605. # [22:20] * Quits: SteveF (~SteveF@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  606. # [22:20] <krisk> hober: data sticks around and replace text?
  607. # [22:21] * Quits: xiaoqian_ (xiaoqian@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  608. # [22:22] <krisk> paulc: which version 5.0 or 5.1?
  609. # [22:22] <krisk> hober: it's in 5.0 4.7.10.12.6
  610. # [22:23] <krisk> glenn: It's worth mentioning that the WHATWG doesn't have this at all
  611. # [22:23] <krisk> hober: The next topic is part of talking about this..
  612. # [22:23] <krisk> hober: Ian thinks this is useless
  613. # [22:24] <krisk> glenn: Unless the useragent knows what it is and can decode this data
  614. # [22:24] <krisk> plh: How do you get a DataCue in HTML5 today
  615. # [22:25] <krisk> glenn: You need to know that this part of text track queues
  616. # [22:25] <krisk> glenn: Using typeOf or the track type itself
  617. # [22:25] <krisk> mjs: instanceOf will work
  618. # [22:26] <krisk> mjs: It's like getElementById - you need to check or know what type of element that is returned
  619. # [22:27] <krisk> hober: I wanted to raise the issue and do a sanity check on this issue
  620. # [22:27] <krisk> paulc: what is the elevator pitch?
  621. # [22:27] <krisk> hober: Add a new filed which exposed the encode type
  622. # [22:27] <krisk> s/filed/field/
  623. # [22:27] <krisk> hober: glenn seems ok with replacing .text
  624. # [22:28] <krisk> hober: we could add some non-normative examples in the spec
  625. # [22:28] <krisk> hober: I'm open with the name of this
  626. # [22:29] <krisk> paulc: This item (text0 is basically at risk no tests, no implementation
  627. # [22:29] <krisk> s/(text0/text/
  628. # [22:30] <hober> WebKit bug: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123907
  629. # [22:30] <krisk> paulc: are we done?
  630. # [22:30] <krisk> hober: I can have an action item to add a bug for this issue
  631. # [22:31] <krisk> paulc: Next item on Agenda is HTML WG culture and participation and divergence from WHATWG specs
  632. # [22:32] <krisk> TOPIC: HTML WG culture and participation and divergence from WHATWG specs
  633. # [22:32] <krisk> paulc: first item is from tantek
  634. # [22:32] <krisk> second is robins spec diffs
  635. # [22:32] * Joins: edoyle_ (~edoyle@public.cloak)
  636. # [22:32] <krisk> third is the work mode document
  637. # [22:33] <krisk> paulc: Let's start with work mode document
  638. # [22:33] <krisk> rubys: It's been a while since we updated the decision policy
  639. # [22:33] <krisk> ..a number sections are old, not used
  640. # [22:34] <krisk> ..whatwg has a doc is this a better base for changes?
  641. # [22:34] <paulc> Workmode document: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/WorkMode
  642. # [22:34] * plh wonders if Mark is aware of test changes related to hit region
  643. # [22:34] <krisk> rubys: I sent this proposal to the list and had only one positive commit
  644. # [22:35] <paulc> 'Proposal need to suggest one or more editors, be able to identify independent support, be within the scope of the working group, and not attract strong objections"
  645. # [22:35] <krisk> glenn: I'd propose removing the second sentance (see above)
  646. # [22:35] * Quits: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  647. # [22:36] * darobin FWIW http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit/ now has a checkbox that allows one to just show the sections in need of attention
  648. # [22:36] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  649. # [22:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  650. # [22:36] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
  651. # [22:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
  652. # [22:36] <krisk> It's not removing the second sentance...
  653. # [22:36] <krisk> paulc: Sam and I did a personal rude Q and A
  654. # [22:37] <glenn> s/the second sentence/the last phrase "and not attract strong objections"/
  655. # [22:37] <krisk> paulc: Like why did we have this in the first place
  656. # [22:37] * Joins: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak)
  657. # [22:37] <krisk> paulc: We'd like to not have this but had to add this in the past to make progress on working group decision
  658. # [22:38] <jaymunro> Possible wording: Proposal need to suggest one or more editors, be able to identify independent support, and be within the scope of the working group.
  659. # [22:39] <krisk> paulc: We'd like to have a lighter weight process, especially in pre-last call and last call
  660. # [22:40] <krisk> paulc: We would like to have the editors do this work and not have this heavy process in place to make progress
  661. # [22:40] * Hixie suggests maybe the wg should also consider a rule of "we won't copy other groups' work if they ask us not to"
  662. # [22:41] <krisk> paulc: If we don't have any objections the chairs are going to impl this change
  663. # [22:42] <krisk> glenn: So basically we are going to a lighter weight process and if needed we can handle one off issues
  664. # [22:42] <krisk> rubys: Yes - with the current editiors we have had zero issues
  665. # [22:43] <krisk> paulc: the extension specs seem to have helped as well since it has taken pressure off and exists to get changes made to the spec for alternate solutions
  666. # [22:43] <krisk> glenn: quesiton about extension specs...
  667. # [22:43] <mjs> q+
  668. # [22:43] * Zakim sees plh, MarkS, mjs on the speaker queue
  669. # [22:43] <krisk> ....would we move items at risk into an extension spec?
  670. # [22:44] <plh> q-
  671. # [22:44] * Zakim sees MarkS, mjs on the speaker queue
  672. # [22:44] <krisk> rubys: ruby got moved into 5.0 from an extension spec
  673. # [22:44] <krisk> glenn: my ask is the opposite - remove feature and move to an extension spec
  674. # [22:45] <krisk> paulc: Yes if it can be cleanly removed - canvas 2d hit testing is an example
  675. # [22:45] <paulc> ack marks
  676. # [22:45] <Zakim> MarkS, you wanted to ask what differentiates sections with a priority flag and without
  677. # [22:45] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  678. # [22:46] <paulc> ack mjs
  679. # [22:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  680. # [22:46] <krisk> ...One having a light process is much better
  681. # [22:46] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  682. # [22:46] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to gh-pages: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/f4eda02f5c9456aa2045b21353889bd9bef3a385
  683. # [22:46] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/gh-pages f4eda02 Robin Berjon: updated safari results
  684. # [22:46] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
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  686. # [22:47] <tantek> q+
  687. # [22:47] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  688. # [22:47] <krisk_> Though for the 1% having a process in place is helpful
  689. # [22:48] <krisk_> rubys: I understand this point - other WG have this 1% issue, but so far this has not been the case
  690. # [22:50] <rubys> q+
  691. # [22:50] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys on the speaker queue
  692. # [22:50] <hober> q+
  693. # [22:50] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys, hober on the speaker queue
  694. # [22:50] <plh> ack tantek
  695. # [22:50] * Zakim sees rubys, hober on the speaker queue
  696. # [22:51] * Joins: paulc_ (~paulc@public.cloak)
  697. # [22:51] <MikeSmith> for the sake of being accurate here, the "original problem" really hasn't been solved. The problem that Hixie mentioned here just earlier here remains. Unless we somehow don't consider that a problem.
  698. # [22:52] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  701. # [22:53] <krisk__> tantek: Seem that one needs to just escalate to the chairs like in other working groups
  702. # [22:53] <krisk__> rubys: Or higher if needed
  703. # [22:55] * Quits: krisk_ (~krisk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  704. # [22:55] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  705. # [22:55] <krisk__> paulc: Art asked the chairs why we were doing CFC for heartbeat drafts for example
  706. # [22:55] * Joins: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak)
  707. # [22:56] <krisk__> robin: moving this into the wiki woudl be good and keeping the work mode short is very helpful for new commers
  708. # [22:56] <krisk__> tantek: New person comment is realy helpful since it will help people feel more welcome working/joining the group
  709. # [22:57] <krisk__> tantek: The previous policy had the effect of turning people away from the HTML WG
  710. # [22:57] <krisk__> tantek: This seems to undo some of this damage and better by moving to a wiki
  711. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  712. # [22:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  713. # [22:57] <krisk__> paulc: That was one of our objections
  714. # [22:58] <krisk__> paulc: We started to look at this after TPAC from feedback and now have this change in place for approval
  715. # [22:59] <krisk__> tantek: If the group decides to copy move specs from whatwg we should try to minimize divergence
  716. # [22:59] <krisk__> tantek: Keeping track of just the diffs is not enough
  717. # [23:00] <Hixie> or, you know, the wg could STOP COPYING OUR WORK in the first place
  718. # [23:01] <krisk__> paulc: The charter calls out that we can take work from other sources
  719. # [23:05] <MikeSmith> q+ to point out that the decision about whether to copy specs from the WHATWG at all is ultimately an HTML WG decision, not some kind of unchangeable external requirement
  720. # [23:05] * Zakim sees rubys, hober, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  721. # [23:07] <paulc_> ack rubys
  722. # [23:07] * Zakim sees hober, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  723. # [23:07] <tantek> q+ re: one way convergence
  724. # [23:07] * Zakim sees hober, MikeSmith, tantek on the speaker queue
  725. # [23:07] <krisk__> rubys: Glenn made a suggestion - he should update the wiki
  726. # [23:08] <paulc_> ack hober
  727. # [23:08] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, tantek on the speaker queue
  728. # [23:08] <krisk__> hober: We were talking about how the previous work mode came about from the failure mode we had at that time
  729. # [23:08] * Joins: SteveF (~SteveF@public.cloak)
  730. # [23:09] <krisk__> hober: The opposite case is that editor has captured the consensus of the group, but one still objects
  731. # [23:09] <krisk__> hober: The new document, talks about potentially changing the editor
  732. # [23:10] <darobin> q+ to bring up deforking
  733. # [23:10] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, tantek, darobin on the speaker queue
  734. # [23:10] <krisk__> hober: We should maybe protect the group from a DoS
  735. # [23:10] <krisk__> paulc: It's possible to do this and needs to be done with extreem care
  736. # [23:11] <krisk__> paulc: so we do have a way to protect the group from a DoS (both sides of the problem)
  737. # [23:11] <krisk__> paulc: In the Ally TF we have had chairs attend this meeting to make sure all parties are being heard
  738. # [23:12] <rubys> q+ to ask tantek if https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=HTML%2Fwg%2FWorkMode&diff=72827&oldid=72766 addresses his concern
  739. # [23:12] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, tantek, darobin, rubys on the speaker queue
  740. # [23:13] <paulc_> ack Mike
  741. # [23:13] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to point out that the decision about whether to copy specs from the WHATWG at all is ultimately an HTML WG decision, not some kind of unchangeable external
  742. # [23:13] <Zakim> ... requirement
  743. # [23:13] * Zakim sees tantek, darobin, rubys on the speaker queue
  744. # [23:13] <krisk__> tantek: Having a personal touch and not process is ideal
  745. # [23:13] * tantek rubys yes that change helps a lot.
  746. # [23:13] <Hixie> maybe that diff should instead just say "Editors of documents that have an independent existence outside of the working group SHOULD NOT exist"
  747. # [23:13] <rubys> q-
  748. # [23:13] * Zakim sees tantek, darobin on the speaker queue
  749. # [23:14] <krisk__> mikesmith: I wanted to make the point that we have been talking around the issue..
  750. # [23:14] <krisk__> ..it's possible that we have an upstream spec under a diff license
  751. # [23:15] <krisk__> ..one that says you can republish, modify
  752. # [23:15] <krisk__> ..then we would not have this luxury
  753. # [23:16] <paulc_> q+
  754. # [23:16] * Zakim sees tantek, darobin, paulc_ on the speaker queue
  755. # [23:16] <krisk__> ..so wanted to mention this that the circumstance we are in are not written in stone
  756. # [23:16] <paulc_> ack tantek
  757. # [23:16] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to discuss one way convergence
  758. # [23:16] * Zakim sees darobin, paulc_ on the speaker queue
  759. # [23:16] <krisk__> tantek: rubys: made a point that I wanted to follow up on.
  760. # [23:16] <krisk__> ..tantek we are stuck with the w3c license to possible change
  761. # [23:17] <krisk__> ..the ab is working on this and is being worked on
  762. # [23:17] <krisk__> ..it's also published on the AB wiki as well
  763. # [23:18] <paulc_> ack darobin
  764. # [23:18] <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to bring up deforking
  765. # [23:18] * Zakim sees paulc_ on the speaker queue
  766. # [23:18] <krisk__> robin: we are moving to a new work mode and trying to faciliate document convergence
  767. # [23:18] <krisk__> ..editors talked (minus travis - he is on vacation)
  768. # [23:19] <krisk__> ..we wanted to re-visit some possible forks
  769. # [23:19] <krisk__> ..in case when a single person was the source and is no longer participating
  770. # [23:19] <krisk__> ..which would potentially unfork these parts of the spec
  771. # [23:20] <krisk__> rubys: 5.0 or 5.1?
  772. # [23:20] <krisk__> robin: 5.0
  773. # [23:20] <krisk__> robin: it's alot of small tiny items
  774. # [23:20] <krisk__> tantek: The smaller the list looks the better
  775. # [23:21] <krisk__> rubys: I'm worried about the schedule - 5.1 seems much safer in terms of risk
  776. # [23:21] <krisk__> paulc: 2014 has alot of pressure
  777. # [23:21] <krisk__> robin: It's not just the chairs
  778. # [23:23] <krisk__> paulc: I agree with sam that doing this for 5.0 seems dangerous
  779. # [23:23] <krisk__> rubys: I think 5.1 is better, it's been a long time since w3c published a html spec
  780. # [23:24] <krisk__> paulc: I encourage the editors to do this on the list
  781. # [23:24] <krisk__> robin: fair enough as long as we get to do this
  782. # [23:24] <krisk__> rubys: The new work mode really opens this up for the editors
  783. # [23:25] <paulc_> q?
  784. # [23:25] * Zakim sees paulc_ on the speaker queue
  785. # [23:25] <krisk__> tantek: last call comments can be made by anyone - including the editors
  786. # [23:25] <krisk__> ..if you see easy ones that have new information the seems reasonable for last call
  787. # [23:26] * Quits: xiaoqian (xiaoqian@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  788. # [23:27] <paulc_> ack pa
  789. # [23:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  790. # [23:27] <krisk__> paulc: I no longer need to be on the queue
  791. # [23:27] <eliot> q+
  792. # [23:27] * Zakim sees eliot on the speaker queue
  793. # [23:27] <krisk__> tantek: Doing the human to human connection
  794. # [23:28] <krisk__> ..is the right approach as paul mentioned
  795. # [23:29] <krisk__> Eliot: what about the twitter account? Should we use it more?
  796. # [23:29] <krisk__> tantek: I'd suggest you give the 'keys' to the chairs
  797. # [23:30] <krisk__> paulc: would having the chairs use this be helpful?
  798. # [23:30] <krisk__> group - yes, good oppertunity for w3c
  799. # [23:30] <Hixie> so... have the chairs even acknowledged that they should consider not copying another group's work? or has the discussion moved on to something else without the topic being discussed?
  800. # [23:32] <krisk__> paulc: Group has agreed to move to this new work mode
  801. # [23:33] <krisk__> tantek: At minimum we should cite where it comes from
  802. # [23:33] <krisk__> tantek: we should be explicit
  803. # [23:33] <Hixie> if the source doesn't want the text to be copied, that doesn't seem like the minimum.
  804. # [23:35] <krisk__> tantek: Two very big diffs in work mode exists - living spec vs w3c mode
  805. # [23:35] <paulc_> q+
  806. # [23:35] * Zakim sees eliot, paulc_ on the speaker queue
  807. # [23:35] <paulc_> ack eliot
  808. # [23:35] * Zakim sees paulc_ on the speaker queue
  809. # [23:35] <darobin> q+
  810. # [23:35] * Zakim sees paulc_, darobin on the speaker queue
  811. # [23:35] <krisk__> tantek: html5.0 and html5.1 is different than the living standard do to the diff work modes
  812. # [23:36] <paulc_> ack darobin
  813. # [23:36] * Zakim sees paulc_ on the speaker queue
  814. # [23:37] <MarkS> q+
  815. # [23:37] * Zakim sees paulc_, MarkS on the speaker queue
  816. # [23:40] <MikeSmith> q?
  817. # [23:40] * Zakim sees paulc_, MarkS on the speaker queue
  818. # [23:40] <paulc_> ack paulc
  819. # [23:40] * Zakim sees MarkS on the speaker queue
  820. # [23:40] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  821. # [23:41] <krisk__> marks: How do you feel we are doing with canvas? We know of differences and have action items to follow up.
  822. # [23:42] <krisk__> paulc: As others mentioned we have the constrains we are bound to work in..
  823. # [23:42] <krisk__> ..In the case of canvas I would have recommend to use the extension spec process
  824. # [23:47] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  825. # [23:48] <krisk__> TOPIC: Other spec updates - Extension specs, Polyglot and Image Description LC status
  826. # [23:48] <krisk__> marks: Do you want to given an update to image description?
  827. # [23:49] * Joins: xiaoqian (xiaoqian@public.cloak)
  828. # [23:49] <krisk__> marks: We hope to have londdesc CR document ready in the next few weeks
  829. # [23:49] <krisk__> s/londdesc/longdesc/
  830. # [23:49] <krisk__> marks: we were hoping to skip CR, but no won't be able to skip CR
  831. # [23:50] <krisk__> paulc: Do you have a rough timetable?
  832. # [23:51] <krisk__> paulc: so you have taken care of last call comments, so what is the general time for CR then?
  833. # [23:51] <krisk__> marks: 4 weeks
  834. # [23:51] <krisk__> paulc: and you do have tests as well
  835. # [23:53] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
  836. # [23:53] <krisk> elitot: we have no bug but no test cases
  837. # [23:54] <krisk> paulc: we need a list of items that need to enter CR
  838. # [23:54] <krisk> paulc: I would think a list of items at risk and a list of tests to create so that multiple browsers pass each test
  839. # [23:55] <krisk> s/elitot/eliot/
  840. # [23:55] <krisk> paulc: seems like the chairs just need to continue work with the editors on timeframes for each
  841. # [23:56] <krisk> paulc: plh do you think we should be doing these on the same schedule? Or have them get pushed faster?
  842. # [23:56] <krisk> plh: I think having longdesc shipped before html5 would be best
  843. # [23:58] * Quits: krisk__ (~krisk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  844. # [23:59] * Quits: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  845. # [23:59] * Joins: krisk_ (~krisk@public.cloak)
  846. # [23:59] <krisk_> HTML5 tech for providing text alternates
  847. # Session Close: Wed Apr 09 00:00:00 2014

The end :)