/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2014-04-09 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 09 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:00] <krisk_> This has been moved into html5 and will be published as a note
# [00:00] <krisk_> Next is using WAI-ARIA in HTML
# [00:01] <paulc_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Apr/0007.html
# [00:01] * Quits: SteveF (~SteveF@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:02] <krisk_> If you have any comments on this plan you should respond back and/or work with the editors
# [00:02] <krisk_> Next is HTML Forms JSON submissions
# [00:03] <paulc_> http://darobin.github.io/formic/specs/json/
# [00:03] * Quits: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:04] <krisk_> robin: I have one issue that needs to be adressed - one or two paragraphs and then it can for to first pub working draft
# [00:04] * Joins: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [00:04] <krisk_> robin
# [00:06] <paulc_> XML:ID extension spec: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Jan/0157.html
# [00:06] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
# [00:06] <krisk> Lief's xml spec will not move forwards at this point
# [00:07] <krisk> hober: source set has implementations in a few browsers
# [00:07] <krisk> ..so that I think we will have two+ implementation so that it can go to CR
# [00:07] <krisk> paulc: We have 2 bugs and no heartbeats recently?
# [00:08] <krisk> paulc: can we get an update or come back?
# [00:08] <krisk> darobin: We can do a heartbeat that would be doable
# [00:09] <krisk> darobin: The extension spec was crowd funded to be implemented!
# [00:09] <darobin> go give money! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/picture-element-implementation-in-blink
# [00:10] <krisk> hober: What I expect to happen is that source set can go to CR with items not impl be marked 'at risk'
# [00:10] <plh> q+
# [00:10] * Zakim sees MarkS, plh on the speaker queue
# [00:11] <krisk> paulc: having both published at the same time would be great
# [00:11] <krisk> q-
# [00:11] * Zakim sees MarkS, plh on the speaker queue
# [00:11] <paulc_> ack Mark
# [00:11] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [00:11] <paulc_> ack plh
# [00:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:11] <plh> http://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/subresourceintegrity/
# [00:11] * Quits: krisk_ (~krisk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:12] <paulc_> Summary:
# [00:12] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [00:12] <hober> s/source set/srcset/g
# [00:12] <krisk> plh: I wanted to make this group be aware - src set as well
# [00:12] <paulc_> a) Editors will work on publishing heartbeats of <picture> element and srcset attribute at the same time
# [00:13] <paulc_> b) XML:id extensions spec work is not going forward
# [00:13] <krisk> Their is an extension spec in webapps that may conflict
# [00:13] <paulc_> c) ARIA in HTML work is being refactored and will done in HTML 5.1 timeframe
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# [00:13] <paulc_> d) Alt text alternatives in HTML has been folded in HTML 5.0 and will be published as a WG Note
# [00:14] <rubys> s/Their is/There is/
# [00:14] <paulc_> e) Polyglot will go to CR
# [00:14] <paulc_> f) Image Description will go to CR
# [00:15] <tantek> <br>
# [00:15] <paulc_> g) JSON extension spec will go to FPWD when Robin can complete the current work
# [00:15] <krisk> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [00:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/08-html-wg-minutes.html krisk
# [00:17] <paulc_> Correction: Early discussion of Using ARIA in HTML should have been about HTML to Platform A11Y API implementation Guide.
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# [00:43] -gitbot:#html-wg- [syntax] sideshowbarker pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/validator/syntax/commit/e55cfdc11c4c1e1178ad1b87eeaa121390b95530
# [00:43] -gitbot:#html-wg- syntax/master e55cfdc Michael[tm] Smith: Warn for year < 1000 || year > 3000.
# [00:43] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [00:45] <paulc_> RE: c) ARIA in HTML work is being refactored and will done in HTML 5.1 timeframe
# [00:45] <paulc_> This should refer to the API Implementation Guide work.
# [00:46] <krisk> TOPIC: HTML 5.1
# [00:46] <paulc_> The status of the ARIA in HTML work is under discussion in A11Y TF
# [00:46] <krisk> rubys: First of is list of bugs - we have 235 bugs
# [00:47] <krisk> darobin: Most of these have not been touched, as we have been pushing for CR
# [00:47] <krisk> paulc: Have you looked to see if any of these are potentially for HTML5.0? Maybe editorial quick wins
# [00:48] <krisk> Link -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=REOPENED&component=HTML5%20spec&list_id=32878&product=HTML%20WG
# [00:48] <paulc_> HTML 5.1 timeline: See http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-2014-plan.html
# [00:49] <paulc_> HTMl 5.1 Last Call: 2014 Q3
# [00:50] <krisk> darobin: When we have shipped 5.0 - we can tidy up and then look for items that are implemented
# [00:50] <paulc_> HTML 5.0 LCf: 2014 Q3
# [00:50] <krisk> ..so that we have one source document and just remove items that are not stable is the optimal work mode
# [00:51] <krisk> ..shipping once a year would be my ideal schedule
# [00:51] <krisk> rubys: working back on the dates would be intresting
# [00:51] <krisk> darobin: I would hope for a .1 would not need 2 years
# [00:52] <krisk> ..we have a bunch of items in place that should help shorted CR periods
# [00:52] <krisk> ..even if we only have a few features
# [00:52] <krisk> rubys: Maybe late 2015 early 2016
# [00:53] <krisk> plh: what does it mean for CR, last call dates, etc...
# [00:53] <paulc_> q+
# [00:53] * Zakim sees paulc_ on the speaker queue
# [00:54] <krisk> darobin: in theory by then cr and lc will be merged so it'll be lcr which is shorter
# [00:54] <krisk> darobin: Maybe late October we enter lcr?
# [00:55] <krisk> paulc: Can we update the early deliverable on LC for HTMl5.1 by Q3 2014
# [00:56] * Joins: jkiss (~jkiss@public.cloak)
# [00:56] <krisk> Is it reasonable to shift focus later in summer to attack 5.1 (bugs) once other specs have progressed?
# [00:57] * Quits: jgraham (~jgraham@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [00:57] <krisk> paulc: The goal was that HTMl5.1 would show progress when HTML5 ships
# [00:57] <krisk> ..in 2014
# [00:57] <krisk> darobin: It makes sense to show progress on 5.1 when 5.0 ships..
# [00:58] <krisk> I think the Q3 2014 for LC for 5.1
# [00:58] <krisk> ..knowning that their is alot more features in 5.1 and the LCR time dates are smaller
# [00:59] <krisk> darobin: I would say Q2 2015 and skip CR so that rec occurs in Q4 2015
# [00:59] * Joins: jgraham (~jgraham@public.cloak)
# [00:59] <krisk> darobin: since the plan should be to just remove items that are not implemented
# [00:59] <krisk> rubys: So then we need to start a 5.2 then right?
# [01:00] <krisk> darobin: yes
# [01:00] * Quits: jinsong (wjs@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:00] <krisk> rubys: I really think this removes pressure, for items at risk if we get into a yearly schedule
# [01:01] <adrianba> +1
# [01:01] <krisk> +2
# [01:01] <krisk> plh: the charter ends at june 2015
# [01:01] <krisk> darobin: I think this will not be an issue
# [01:02] <krisk> paulc: I was thinking about how we communicate the changes
# [01:03] <krisk> paulc: we don't have to update the charter, but we do need to inform the AC
# [01:03] <paulc_> Current schedule is in the charter: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html
# [01:03] <krisk> rubys: Then we should communicate LC for 5.1 won't happen in Q3 and that we are going to ship HTML5.1 earlier
# [01:04] * Joins: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [01:04] <krisk> rubys: Editors should start to think about a date for 5.2 bugs
# [01:04] <krisk> darobins: we can actually use the milestone field in bugzilla :)
# [01:05] <krisk> paulc: Getting this list of bug and plan is important, especially with all the 5.0 work
# [01:05] <krisk> darobin: I don't think it's reasonable to work on this until HTML5 gets to PR (can't speak about other editors)
# [01:06] <krisk> paulc: maybe other editors can work on 5.1 bugs
# [01:06] <krisk> hober: that seem reasonable
# [01:06] <krisk> s/seem/seems/
# [01:06] <krisk> paulc: do we know the AB schedule for section 7 in the process document and when it will come into effect
# [01:08] * Joins: krisk_ (~krisk@public.cloak)
# [01:08] <krisk_> paulc: Let me ask two qs
# [01:08] <rubys> q?
# [01:08] * Zakim sees paulc_ on the speaker queue
# [01:09] <plh> q+
# [01:09] * Zakim sees paulc_, plh on the speaker queue
# [01:09] <plh> ack paul
# [01:09] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [01:09] <tantek> Process improvement project: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Process
# [01:09] <krisk_> In 5.0 we needed to go to no just last call, but pre-last call
# [01:10] <krisk_> Do we think we will need this for 5.1?
# [01:10] <krisk_> paulc: so are we ok that 5.0 is marching to be done...
# [01:11] <krisk_> we are just really asking for a review for 5.1 which is much smaller in scope than 5.0
# [01:11] <krisk_> ..so that the model for 5.1 can be much differenet
# [01:11] <krisk_> darobin: yes
# [01:12] <krisk_> paulc: I think it's key to communicate this diff
# [01:12] <krisk_> paulc: Next is that I think the ally focus are thinking the 5.1 timeframe will be the same as 5.0
# [01:13] <krisk_> paulc: basically we have to communicate this outside an inside the group
# [01:13] <krisk_> rubys: In theory if we do ship yearly then it should not be problem, like other 'at risk features'
# [01:13] * Quits: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:14] <tantek> q+ to ask why are people considering "5.1 timeframe" for new features? not a good framing. new specs/features should go in extension specs which have their own timelines.
# [01:14] * Zakim sees plh, tantek on the speaker queue
# [01:14] <krisk_> * krisk_ says goodbye to krisk
# [01:14] <plh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2014Mar/0019.html
# [01:14] <krisk_> paulc: that is my point, maybe do a paln 2016
# [01:14] * Quits: jkiss (~jkiss@public.cloak) (jkiss)
# [01:14] <rubys> d/paln/plan/
# [01:14] <krisk_> s/paln/plan/
# [01:15] <krisk_> plh: we can use new process if we are not in last call...
# [01:15] <krisk_> ..if you are in last call then you can't use the new process
# [01:15] <rubys> q?
# [01:15] * Zakim sees plh, tantek on the speaker queue
# [01:16] <rubys> ack plh
# [01:16] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [01:17] <krisk_> paulc: the only spec that this could impact I *think* is EME
# [01:17] <rubys> ack next
# [01:17] * Zakim sees tantek at the head of the speaker queue
# [01:17] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask why are people considering "5.1 timeframe" for new features? not a good framing. new specs/features should go in extension specs which have their own
# [01:17] <Zakim> ... timelines.
# [01:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:17] <krisk_> tantek: I was confused about extension specs and 5.1
# [01:19] <krisk_> paulc: you should read the ally TF work
# [01:19] <krisk_> paulc: I think they are really looking at 5.0 in 2014 and then 5.1 2016
# [01:20] <krisk_> tantek: I'm all for lining up to other schedules, though it goes against the spirt of extension specs
# [01:21] <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [01:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/08-html-wg-minutes.html plh
# [01:21] <krisk_> paulc: The api mapping document pre-dates the concept of extension specs
# [01:21] <plh> Meeting: HTML Working Group face-to-face meeting
# [01:21] <plh> Chair: Paul and Sam
# [01:22] <krisk_> rubys: Their is a very human aspect to this...
# [01:22] <krisk_> ..other people want to work with us and we should reach out
# [01:23] <krisk_> ..I think the main purpose of this discusion was to get an idea on the schedule - 2016 may not make sense, or that we can get some agreement about moving to a new yearly schedule
# [01:23] <rubys> q?
# [01:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:23] <krisk_> ..which will lead to a set of action items where stuff can land - 5.1, 5.2 etc..
# [01:23] <plh> Present: MarkS, MarkV, Sam, Plh, Maciej, Adrian, Xiaoqian, Joe, Kris, Robin, Tantek, Ted, Arnaud, Erika, Jay, Eliot, Mike, Bob, Glenn, Cynthia, Paul
# [01:23] * Quits: jdsmith (~jdsmith@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:23] <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [01:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/08-html-wg-minutes.html plh
# [01:24] <krisk_> rubys: did your point get covered?
# [01:24] <krisk_> tantek: I think so and it's matter of communicating and moving forward
# [01:24] <xiaoqian> Present+ zqzhang
# [01:25] <krisk_> marks: This really is not an extension spec, it's a whole document
# [01:25] * Quits: silvia (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [01:25] <krisk_> rubys: I'm trying to decouple the labels - 5.1, 5.2, 5.005 and focus on the date
# [01:26] <krisk_> paulc: when we revist at risk features tomorrow we should leverage this as well
# [01:27] <krisk_> paulc: Do you think the json spec would rolled in or stay seperate
# [01:27] <MarkS> s/a whole document/a series of documents one of which involves HTML, with a core spec published by PF,
# [01:30] <krisk_> darobin: If a feature doesn't need to be in the main spec, especially if it has no other dependancies
# [01:30] <krisk_> darobin: so with JSON it should be seperate
# [01:30] <krisk_> rubys: The next item in topic is ally wishlist
# [01:30] <krisk_> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist
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# [01:31] <krisk_> darobin: I think we need to talk about the content editable and the 5.1 timeframe
# [01:31] <krisk_> * br vs div vs p tag?
# [01:32] <krisk_> paulc: OK we can get 15 to talk about tomorrow
# [01:32] <adrianba> Extensible Web Summit home page: http://lanyrd.com/2014/extensible-web-summit/
# [01:32] <krisk_> plh: some are not part of HTML
# [01:34] <krisk_> darobin: having more details (use case) would be very helpful...not picking oh Haptic output,
# [01:34] <krisk_> ...it's just that it doesn't have info on what exists today and where it fails, etc..
# [01:36] <krisk_> cynthia: menu has issue(s)
# [01:36] <krisk_> rubys: details and summary are just missing implementations
# [01:37] <krisk_> darobin: yes it's not about the spec, or if we have tests, just not enough implementation
# [01:37] <krisk_> marks: This is not a complete list and indeed needs more refinement
# [01:38] <krisk_> cynthia: content editable has accessibility issue
# [01:38] <krisk_> plh: yes content editable needs work
# [01:38] * darobin content editable has issues on pretty much every single aspect you can think og
# [01:39] <krisk_> marks: I'll update the wish list with some details and use cases
# [01:39] <krisk_> darobin: thanks
# [01:39] <krisk_> TOPIC: Datetime input timezone issues
# [01:40] <krisk_> travil won't be able to discuss due to being on vacation (previously planned)
# [01:40] <krisk_> tantek: Is this about 5.0?
# [01:40] <krisk_> bug 16597
# [01:41] <krisk_> tantek: has this been fixed in 5.0?
# [01:41] <paulc_> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16957
# [01:41] <krisk_> darobin: yes it has been moved to 5.0
# [01:41] <krisk_> paulc: note the keyword 'CR' - it means it was fixed in the 5.0 CR
# [01:42] <krisk_> tantek: What is health warning?
# [01:42] <paulc_> See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16957#c6 for Travis's comment about resolving this in 5.0
# [01:43] <krisk_> darobin: Basically is you use this input you might mess up...it's not normative
# [01:43] <krisk_> next bug is 16959
# [01:43] <paulc_> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16959
# [01:43] <krisk_> * I was about to paste that in paul :)
# [01:44] <krisk_> paulc: Is this in 5.0?
# [01:45] <krisk_> tantek: Me too since it had the CR removed
# [01:45] <krisk_> darobin: why is it still open, it looks like the change was made and intl is happy?
# [01:45] <krisk_> edoyle: Kept open since it was part of the F2F
# [01:46] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [01:46] <krisk_> tantek: It raised the flag since it seems to have diverged?
# [01:47] <krisk_> tantek: maybe not an issue if it has not been implemented
# [01:48] <krisk_> darobin: what is the current status of datetime input types with this bug
# [01:50] <krisk_> tantek: Whatever the path is forward drop datetime-local, or has same functionality as datetime gets in back in sync
# [01:50] <krisk_> tantek: since this bug was just fixed, but was last talked about in june 2013
# [01:50] <krisk_> paulc: is the simple issue just change local to floating?
# [01:51] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, [Paypal], in Team_(html-wg)17:52Z
# [01:51] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)17:52Z has ended
# [01:51] <Zakim> Attendees were JohnJansen, [Paypal]
# [01:52] <krisk_> tantek: seems like this is confusing enough to drop for 5.0
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# [01:53] <krisk_> darobin: Only pre-blink Opera has support for input datetime
# [01:53] <krisk_> s/input datetime/input type=datetime/
# [01:53] <krisk_> tantek: Then indeed we should remove from 5.0
# [01:54] <krisk_> paulc: this is on the at risk list already
# [01:54] <krisk_> rubys: yes we will discuss tomorrow
# [01:54] <krisk_> paulc: darobin can you do quick check what changes have been made?
# [01:55] <krisk_> rubys: The bug(s) has links to the diffs
# [01:55] <krisk_> rubys: No real reason to worry about these bugs since indeed the whole section is at risk to be removed
# [01:56] <krisk_> tantek: The other reason was that it touches on two items...
# [01:56] <krisk_> one if this was actually well implemented we would have a big issue
# [01:57] <krisk_> ...it raises the issue of new features that have no implemetations
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# [01:57] <krisk_> ..it could be that the idea is bad and the group could propose a different solution
# [01:58] <krisk_> ..for example a extentsion spec that gets implementations
# [01:59] <krisk_> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [01:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html krisk_
# [01:59] <krisk_> rubys: meeting ar recess until tomorrow morning at 9am PST
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# [02:00] <rubys> s/ar recess/at recess/
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# [02:02] -gitbot:#html-wg- [syntax] sideshowbarker pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/validator/syntax/commit/cb21b5354cc6fd939cf38e8221282c17b6f5e79d
# [02:02] -gitbot:#html-wg- syntax/master cb21b53 Michael[tm] Smith: Minor change.
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# [05:19] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] techtoons pushed 1 new commit to html5_canvas_CR: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/c209df326f23fa17f95edf9187dfab12e231a0ef
# [05:19] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/html5_canvas_CR c209df3 Jay Munro: Added clearHitRegion() and other edits...
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# [05:23] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] techtoons pushed 1 new commit to html5_canvas_CR: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/b17e400197770c9cae24bbd7b5398076cc02ce3f
# [05:23] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/html5_canvas_CR b17e400 Jay Munro: added trace a path back...
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# [18:02] * markw Is this meeting starting ? Zakim says "The conference is restricted at this time"
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# [18:02] <acolwell> Yeah. I'm getting that as well
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# [18:04] <plh> we're getting ready
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# [18:05] <plh> we'll start in 5 minutes
# [18:05] <plh> I'll setup the bridge passcode then
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# [18:07] <joesteele> scribenick: joesteele
# [18:07] <joesteele> chair: paulc
# [18:07] <joesteele> Zakim?
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# [18:07] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-irc
# [18:08] <joesteele> scribenick: joesteele
# [18:08] <joesteele> chair: paulc
# [18:08] <joesteele> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:08] <Zakim> sorry, joesteele, I don't know what conference this is
# [18:08] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, IanPouncey, adrianba, joesteele, rubys, ArtB, aizu, cyril, markw, plh, dsinger, paulc, glenn, acolwell, jernoble, tantek, darobin, anssik, Lachy,
# [18:08] <Zakim> ... krit, krijnhoetmer, arronei, jaymunro, denis, jgraham, wilhelm, tH, gavin, slightlyoff_, hober, cwilso__, paul___irish, decadance, tobie__, AAA_awright, gsnedders, heycam|away,
# [18:08] <Zakim> ... cabanier, johndrinkwater, Josh_Soref_, pdr, timeless_, mattur, jmb, MarkS, Philip, logbot, stryx`, Hixie, ed, MikeSmith, trackbot
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# [18:09] * jernoble , hober, and tantek are still en-route. :)
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# [18:11] <plh> zakim, room for 10 for 120 minutes?
# [18:11] <Zakim> ok, plh; conference Team_(html-wg)16:12Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 120 minutes until 1812Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
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# [18:11] <markw> .me conference bridge is still "restricted"
# [18:11] <plh> passcode is 26631
# [18:12] <plh> please use this when connecting on the bridge
# [18:12] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)16:12Z has now started
# [18:12] <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
# [18:12] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:12] <Zakim> +[Paypal]
# [18:12] <markw> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
# [18:12] <Zakim> +markw; got it
# [18:12] <joesteele> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal]
# [18:13] <Zakim> On IRC I see adrianba, edoyle, krisk, Arrrno, eliot, xiaoqian, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanPouncey, joesteele, rubys, ArtB, aizu, cyril, markw, plh, dsinger, paulc, glenn, acolwell,
# [18:13] <Zakim> ... jernoble, tantek, darobin, anssik, Lachy, krit, krijnhoetmer, arronei, jaymunro, denis, jgraham, wilhelm, tH, gavin, slightlyoff_, hober, cwilso__, paul___irish, decadance,
# [18:13] <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:13] <Zakim> ... tobie__, AAA_awright, gsnedders, heycam|away, cabanier, johndrinkwater, Josh_Soref_, pdr, timeless_, mattur, jmb, MarkS, Philip, logbot, stryx`, Hixie, ed, MikeSmith, trackbot
# [18:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal]
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# [18:13] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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# [18:13] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:13] * Zakim sees on the phone: Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal], [IPcaller]
# [18:13] <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html joesteele
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# [18:14] <cyril> zakim, who is here ?
# [18:14] <Zakim> On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal], [IPcaller]
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# [18:14] <Zakim> On IRC I see adrianba_, BobLund, adrianba, edoyle, krisk, Arrrno, eliot, xiaoqian, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanPouncey, joesteele, rubys, ArtB, aizu, cyril, markw, plh, dsinger, paulc,
# [18:14] <Zakim> ... glenn, acolwell, jernoble, tantek, darobin, anssik, Lachy, krit, krijnhoetmer, arronei, jaymunro, denis, jgraham, wilhelm, tH, gavin, slightlyoff_, hober, cwilso__,
# [18:14] <Zakim> ... paul___irish, decadance, tobie__, AAA_awright, gsnedders, heycam|away, cabanier, johndrinkwater, Josh_Soref_, pdr, timeless_, mattur, jmb, MarkS, Philip, logbot, stryx`, Hixie,
# [18:14] <Zakim> ... ed, MikeSmith
# [18:14] <joesteele> paulc: walking through the agenda first
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# [18:14] <cyril> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
# [18:14] <Zakim> +cyril; got it
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# [18:15] <joesteele> paulc: this is the meila - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Apr/0058.html
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# [18:15] <joesteele> ... posted a link to the review of the pull request
# [18:15] <krisk> A number of issues are in the 'critic' tool - indeed some good tests that expose interop issues in IE and Chrome
# [18:15] <joesteele> ... some comments supplied by folks in the room
# [18:15] <krisk> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/951
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# [18:16] <joesteele> ... maybe Phillipe could give a review
# [18:16] * Parts: Mick (~Mick@public.cloak)
# [18:16] <joesteele> phillipe: <discussing the review process>
# [18:16] <joesteele> ... fixed link in one of the test -- Simon saying it needs to be fixed
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# [18:16] <joesteele> ... once it is addressed, people says whether is acceptable
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# [18:17] <joesteele> paulc: was Aaron notified of each of the comments?
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# [18:17] <joesteele> acolwell: hadn't been notified of some comments
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# [18:17] <joesteele> ... put saw when Kris posted to the pull request
# [18:18] <joesteele> paulc: next step is for Aaron to work with the critics and see what changes can be made
# [18:18] <joesteele> discussion of which email address should be used -- looks like Aaron was setup incorrectly
# [18:18] <joesteele> acolwell: ok -- did not know about the comments before
# [18:18] <joesteele> paulc: right -- I coped the folks sending comments and sent to you
# [18:18] * darobin acolwell: do you see your email address in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/home ? (Also check you're signed in to the system)
# [18:18] <krisk> Until the critic email notification is fixed we can just make sure to make a comment in github when their is a status change
# [18:19] <joesteele> ... like to assign an action item to you for this
# [18:19] <joesteele> acolwell: ok
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# [18:19] <joesteele> ACTION: acolwell to Review the comments on proposed MSE test suites in two weeks
# [18:19] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:19] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:19] <trackbot> Error finding 'acolwell'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [18:19] * darobin acolwell: there are two email addresses (that may be the same): one used to send you email, and the other used to match git commits to you (so it has to be the same you use in GitHub)
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# [18:20] <joesteele> acolwell: resolution may take longer to figure out what the right behavior is
# [18:20] <joesteele> paulc: if you need help with github -- asl
# [18:20] <joesteele> s/asl/ask/
# [18:20] * darobin acolwell: if you want, #testing is the best channel for Critic support
# [18:21] <joesteele> Topic: CR bug status of MSE
# [18:21] <joesteele> pauc: 5 of these bugs are fixed
# [18:21] <joesteele> s/pauc: /paulc: /
# [18:21] <joesteele> paulc: aaron sent out "cyril draft"
# [18:21] <joesteele> ... going to second link in the email
# [18:22] <joesteele> ... Aaron summarizes long thread about this problem
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# [18:22] <joesteele> ... some expressions of support for this direction
# [18:22] <joesteele> ... in email
# [18:23] <joesteele> acolwell: David Singers resposne talks about one of the requests
# [18:23] <joesteele> ... resolution for this I think is two remove some of the definitions MSE makes of language and tie on the track objects
# [18:23] <joesteele> s/and tie/and time/
# [18:23] <joesteele> paulc: MSE proposed to make language and time mutable -- ie change in full flight
# [18:24] <joesteele> ... lots of push back on this
# [18:24] <joesteele> ... general conclusion is that those should be fixed during the track and should not change
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# [18:24] <joesteele> ... applies to audio, text, anything
# [18:24] <joesteele> ?1: user can elect to change
# [18:25] <joesteele> acolwell: proposed changes is to remove the definitions from MSE
# [18:25] <joesteele> ... MSE will conform to what HTML5 spec says does not add text for this
# [18:25] <joesteele> ... if time needs to change within a track follow HTML5 guideline
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# [18:25] <joesteele> ... think that means removing the track and adding a new track
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# [18:26] <joesteele> ... second part -- one of orig. justifications is that time is not available in ISOBMFF file
# [18:28] <joesteele> ... third thing - MSE spec should be more clear around language and time
# [18:28] <joesteele> ... looking for input from David and others on how to change this MPEG spec
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# [18:29] <joesteele_> pal: one #2 have a question
# [18:29] <joesteele_> ... are you syaing this cannot be communicated via HTML5?
# [18:29] * markw what text is pal referring to ?
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# [18:29] <cyril> q+
# [18:29] * Zakim sees cyril on the speaker queue
# [18:29] <joesteele_> acolwell: no - saying we would defined boxes saying what the time attributes could be -- not communicated today
# [18:29] <markw> q+
# [18:29] * Zakim sees cyril, markw on the speaker queue
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# [18:30] <joesteele_> pal: this might exist outside the ISOBMFF package?
# [18:30] <joesteele_> acolwell: if so then the app has to deal with it
# [18:30] <joesteele_> pal: then you are proposing to duplicate this rather than using it where is is today?
# [18:31] <joesteele_> pal: is there another way of communicating that information so it can be reflect back to the HTML attributes?
# [18:31] <joesteele_> acolwell: could probably define special docs? to do this
# [18:31] <joesteele_> paulc: pierre is looking for an API solution
# [18:31] <joesteele_> pal: trying to avoid having these boxes be a requirement
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# [18:32] <joesteele_> acolwell: making time immutable seems to be most natural - but that creates a problem
# [18:32] <joesteele_> pal: would like to explore ways of doing this that do not require a new required box
# [18:32] <joesteele_> q?
# [18:32] * Zakim sees cyril, markw on the speaker queue
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# [18:32] <BobLund> q+
# [18:33] * Zakim sees cyril, markw, BobLund on the speaker queue
# [18:33] <joesteele_> ack cyril
# [18:33] * Zakim sees markw, BobLund on the speaker queue
# [18:33] <joesteele_> cyril: I proposed with CableLabs some extensions to the DASH manifest for new roles values that would map to HTML time
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# [18:33] <joesteele_> ... I think would be a good idea to carry the time in the MP4 format for WebVTT for example
# [18:34] <joesteele_> ... I also agree with Pierre - maybe an API to set the time and language in some sort of constructor
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# [18:34] <joesteele_> ... not at just any time -- would be useful
# [18:34] <joesteele_> ack markw
# [18:34] * Zakim sees BobLund on the speaker queue
# [18:34] <joesteele_> markw: the time needs to be in the manifest whatever manifest we use
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# [18:34] <joesteele_> ... needs to know when it is downloaded
# [18:35] <joesteele_> ... could also be in the MP4 file but must be in the manifest
# [18:35] <joesteele_> ... also agree that there is not need to change it after construction
# [18:35] <joesteele_> ack BobLund
# [18:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:35] <markw> s/time needs to be/kind needs to be/
# [18:35] <joesteele_> BobLund: agree it should be in the manifest and should not be mutable
# [18:36] <joesteele_> ... but not all media formats include thi sin-band
# [18:36] <markw> s/needs to know when/application needs to know before/
# [18:36] <joesteele_> glenn: if we add something to ISOBMFF need to add for other formats
# [18:36] <joesteele_> ... seems to have been added by WebVTT folks
# [18:37] <joesteele_> cyril: need to make my contribution public and then will send to the list
# [18:37] <joesteele_> paulc: sounds like this was made to imply it is mutable at any time
# [18:37] <joesteele_> ... but having a constructor to set this would be a good idea
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# [18:37] <joesteele_> markw: have a chicken and egg problem - no point at which you can intercept construction of the track
# [18:38] <joesteele_> cyril: but when your source buffer is single track this is possible?
# [18:38] * markw @joesteele_ this is/was aaron speaking
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# [18:38] <joesteele_> aaron: not sure what that buys us though
# [18:38] * cyril exactly!
# [18:38] <joesteele_> s/markw: have a /acolwell: have a /
# [18:38] <joesteele_> s/aaron: /acolwell: /
# [18:39] <joesteele_> paulc: sounds like we have concensus for #1
# [18:39] <joesteele_> pal: #2 is not sufficient
# [18:39] <joesteele_> paulc: #3 we need to get these changes made to HTML5 - and what she should do about it is the next step there
# [18:39] <joesteele_> ... pal - you need to respond to this and continue the dialogue
# [18:39] <acolwell> q+
# [18:39] * Zakim sees acolwell on the speaker queue
# [18:40] <joesteele_> ... we can get #1 and #3 started
# [18:40] * Joins: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak)
# [18:40] <joesteele_> ... Aaron think that is enough for today
# [18:40] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@public.cloak)
# [18:40] <joesteele_> acolwell: think we have concensus for #1 - is there an alternate proposed or should I just remove language?
# [18:41] <joesteele_> paulc: I am ok with leaving the bug open with note about waiting for concensus
# [18:41] <joesteele_> acolwell: since we are removing mutable language -- process issues?
# [18:41] <joesteele_> paulc: worry about that later
# [18:41] <joesteele_> .. .may be first of several items
# [18:42] <joesteele_> ACTION: paulc to make sure HTML5 bugs filed for item #3
# [18:42] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:42] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:42] <trackbot> Created ACTION-243 - Make sure html5 bugs filed for item #3 [on Paul Cotton - due 2014-04-16].
# [18:42] <joesteele_> Topic: Last two items
# [18:42] <joesteele_> paulc: Aaron publishers an editors draft that resolve 3 of the bugs - cyril should review
# [18:42] <joesteele_> s/publishers/published/
# [18:42] <joesteele_> cyril: will review
# [18:43] <joesteele_> Topic: Audio bytestream format
# [18:43] <joesteele_> paulc: Aaron posted this in his email -- seemed to be some support
# [18:43] <joesteele_> cyril: yes I was about to submit something for that also
# [18:43] <joesteele_> s/Last two items/Editors draft/
# [18:44] <joesteele_> cyril: question about byte range format - would work as expecte din sequence mode but not in segment mode - correct?
# [18:44] <joesteele_> acolwell: would act very similar
# [18:44] <joesteele_> s/expect din/expected in/
# [18:44] * Joins: IanPouncey (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:44] <joesteele_> cyril: will look more carefully then
# [18:45] <joesteele_> paulc: if Aaron posts the link in that email you can contiue to provide comments
# [18:45] <joesteele_> ... Aaron more to talk about?
# [18:45] <joesteele_> acolwell: are people ok with me putting the spec in the registry?
# [18:46] <joesteele_> paulc: any objections or more time needed?
# [18:46] <joesteele_> ?2: would like to review
# [18:46] <joesteele_> paulc: please add this to email
# [18:46] <joesteele_> s/?2/jdsmith/
# [18:46] <joesteele_> s/?2: /jdsmith: /
# [18:47] <joesteele_> pal: question about Aarons concern - is the concern that when you do addsourcebuffer, you don't know how many tracks will be created?
# [18:47] <joesteele_> acolwell: application has not information to uniquely identify tracks, so would be hard for application to target tracks
# [18:47] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:47] <joesteele_> pal: go it
# [18:48] <joesteele_> paulc: reviewing email again --
# [18:48] <joesteele_> ... Aaron will hold of on making changes until more dialog about API possibilities
# [18:48] <joesteele_> ... box format will wait for more feedback from David Singer
# [18:49] <joesteele_> ... Cyril will review spec updates
# [18:49] <joesteele_> ... Jerry will take time to review audio formats
# [18:49] <joesteele_> Topic: EME discussion
# [18:50] <krisk> scribe: krisk
# [18:50] * Quits: IanPouncey (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:51] <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [18:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html plh
# [18:52] <plh> Meeting: HTML Working Group face-to-face
# [18:52] <plh> Regrets: Travis
# [18:52] <krisk> We are going to be going through a number of EME Bugs
# [18:52] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
# [18:52] <krisk> See -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Apr/0051.html
# [18:52] <paulc> q?
# [18:53] * Zakim sees acolwell on the speaker queue
# [18:53] <paulc> ack ac
# [18:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:53] <krisk> First bug is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25199
# [18:53] <krisk> EME should use promises
# [18:54] <krisk> TOPIC: EME Should use Promises
# [18:54] <krisk> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25199
# [18:54] <plh> Present: Mike, Eliot, PAL, adrian, Erika, MarkS, Jay, Bob, Kris, Robin, Jerry, Arnaud, Zhihang, Cindy, Neils, Cynthia, Glenn, plh, Sam, Paul, Tantek, Ted, Jer, David, Aaron, MarkW, Cyril, MarkV
# [18:54] <plh> Present+ Joe
# [18:54] * ted sets mode: +o plh
# [18:54] <krisk> Which Blocks: 17750 21798 24081 24216 24771.
# [18:54] * ted sets mode: -t
# [18:54] <Arrrno> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
# [18:55] * darobin MikeSmith: you may now set the topic
# [18:55] * plh changes topic to 'HTML Working Group Face-to-face: passcode 26631'
# [18:56] <MikeSmith> excellemente
# [18:56] <krisk> All the bugs deal with async and promises are mechanism for async
# [18:56] <krisk> At the last meeting April 1st people needed more time to think about using promises for this purpose
# [18:56] <@plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [18:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html plh
# [18:57] <krisk> The main bug has the proposed IDL change
# [18:57] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [18:57] <krisk> Any feedback?
# [18:57] <Zakim> -cyril
# [18:57] <krisk> joesteele: This is a good change and in the direction of the W3C tag
# [18:58] <krisk> ...are other changes like this going to be made in HTML5? Or will it wait until 5.1?
# [18:58] <krisk> darobin: New apis are expected to use promises
# [18:58] <krisk> paulc: Others have been changed in last call/WD status even before promises moved out of DOM4 and into ECMA script
# [18:59] <adrianba> q+
# [18:59] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [18:59] <krisk> paulc: any objections?
# [18:59] <krisk> ack adrianba
# [18:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:59] <paulc> ack adrian
# [18:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:59] <krisk> adrianba: This is a good direction and change to make, but I have some detail questions
# [19:00] <krisk> ..for example I'm not sure how the promise works with the release method
# [19:00] <krisk> ..it's not clear when the promise completes
# [19:00] * @plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [19:00] * Zakim sees on the phone: Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal]
# [19:00] <krisk> ..The best approach maybe to make this change and then itterate on the details that comeout
# [19:01] <krisk> ddorwin: Yes I added a comment in the bug about this.
# [19:01] <krisk> paulc: Room agrees
# [19:01] <@plh> Present+ Prabhakar_Goyal
# [19:01] <JohnJansen> Present+ JohnJansen
# [19:01] <@plh> Present+ Sean_Snider
# [19:01] <krisk> paulc: I'm concerned about not discussing the other bugs that are blocked
# [19:01] <krisk> * Hi johnjan!
# [19:01] * Quits: cyril (~cyril@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:02] <krisk> jdsmith: We have all replied back to these bugs
# [19:02] <krisk> paulc: What I am asking for when is the next meeting and with enough next steps to know the overall status of the next meeting
# [19:03] <krisk> paulc: Maybe these 'blocked' bugs can be addressed or have progress on once the main bug is addressed (25199)
# [19:03] <joesteele_> q+
# [19:03] * Zakim sees joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [19:03] <krisk> ddorwin: Some of these may just be fixed or need minor changes
# [19:04] <krisk> paulc: Once the root bug is fixed can you send something to the TF on what needs to be done with the other bugs (maybe close/duped by the root bug)
# [19:04] <krisk> Action: ddorwin
# [19:04] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [19:04] * trackbot doesn't understand that ACTION command.
# [19:04] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [19:05] <krisk> Action: ddorwin to fix the main bug and propose a direction for the other 5 blocker bugs
# [19:05] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [19:05] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [19:05] <trackbot> Error finding 'ddorwin'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [19:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [19:05] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
# [19:05] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
# [19:05] <krisk> joesteele: Some of the bugs may not be fixed...
# [19:06] <krisk> Bug 17750, Bug 24216
# [19:07] <krisk> paulc: The right think to do is send an email that even with the async change these bugs won't be addressed
# [19:07] <krisk> joesteele: OK
# [19:08] <krisk> adrianba: I wonder if we can have this discussion now about these bugs
# [19:08] <krisk> joesteele Sure
# [19:08] <krisk> joesteele: Let discuss and email on the list
# [19:09] * Joins: rubys2 (~rubys2@public.cloak)
# [19:09] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [19:09] <joesteele_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Apr/0004.html
# [19:09] <krisk> joesteele: The issue I'm trying to raise here - a session is composed of licenses and keys
# [19:10] <krisk> ..Load session and release assume a single content key
# [19:10] <krisk> joesteele: You can deliver keys at a higher level that a specific content stream
# [19:11] <krisk> ..if you impl release/session on a lower level it can impact a higher level
# [19:11] <joesteele_> https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/128iTMqVgI3gCPo7q1mB2RIq-iCV3og0FMfVlY0mRWOg/edit?usp=sharing
# [19:11] <joesteele_> this is the diagram I was talking about
# [19:12] <krisk> joesteele: This is from a number of DRMs
# [19:12] <krisk> joesteele: It more complex - device, player, content and wrapper keys
# [19:12] <krisk> ...The spec needs to allow the CDN manage these keys
# [19:13] <krisk> The app need to just know about two keys
# [19:13] * Joins: pal (~pal@public.cloak)
# [19:13] <krisk> ...Mark has talked about an app releasing a specific key - so that a movie can then be played on another device
# [19:14] <krisk> paulc: These are really about the API and not about the async
# [19:14] <krisk> joesteele: Yes this orthogonal to the async bug
# [19:14] <krisk> paulc: do we have a specific bug that covers supported a differenet model
# [19:15] <krisk> ddorwin: I'm not aware of such a bug
# [19:15] <joesteele_> This is the bug -- https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25218
# [19:15] <krisk> joesteele: Bug 25218 is close but nor complete
# [19:15] <krisk> s/nor/not/
# [19:16] <krisk> paulc: Is this email linked to bug #25218
# [19:16] <krisk> ddorwin: The goal is to make various systems interoperable
# [19:16] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25218
# [19:16] <krisk> ...alot of other ways exist
# [19:16] <krisk> ..but EME is generic and simple
# [19:17] <krisk> ..the model is session based
# [19:17] <krisk> ..What happens if you load a key from another sessions, you should not do this...
# [19:17] <krisk> ..I understand the domain thing, but I don't think it's interoperable
# [19:18] <krisk> ..Likewise if it's built to support a specific device it won't work on other devices
# [19:18] <niels_t> q+
# [19:18] * Zakim sees joesteele_, niels_t on the speaker queue
# [19:18] <krisk> ..I'm worried that do this change will cause more interop issues
# [19:18] <glenn> q+
# [19:18] * Zakim sees joesteele_, niels_t, glenn on the speaker queue
# [19:18] <krisk> ..We should fix the common case and then move to some other complex cases
# [19:19] <krisk> ..For example web crypto..
# [19:19] <paulc> ack joe
# [19:19] * Zakim sees niels_t, glenn on the speaker queue
# [19:19] <pal> q+
# [19:19] * Zakim sees niels_t, glenn, pal on the speaker queue
# [19:19] <krisk> niels_t: We do see limits in EME
# [19:19] <joesteele_> +q
# [19:19] * Zakim sees niels_t, glenn, pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [19:19] <krisk> ..allowing the CDM to contact the license server directly
# [19:19] <krisk> ..intitlal for legacy
# [19:19] <krisk> ..but now we see additional use cases (init)
# [19:20] <krisk> ..could be allowed by this change
# [19:20] <ddorwin> q+
# [19:20] * Zakim sees niels_t, glenn, pal, joesteele_, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:20] <krisk> ..it could be more of a conceptual change in the abstract
# [19:20] <markw> q+
# [19:20] * Zakim sees niels_t, glenn, pal, joesteele_, ddorwin, markw on the speaker queue
# [19:20] <paulc> ack niels
# [19:20] * Zakim sees glenn, pal, joesteele_, ddorwin, markw on the speaker queue
# [19:20] <paulc> ack glenn
# [19:20] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_, ddorwin, markw on the speaker queue
# [19:20] <krisk> glenn: To the comments about supporting exist solutions
# [19:21] <BobLund> q+
# [19:21] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_, ddorwin, markw, BobLund on the speaker queue
# [19:21] <krisk> ..EME came about to support existing systems is an implicit goals
# [19:21] * Quits: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak) (dsinger)
# [19:21] <krisk> ..from cox's perspect we do have intrest in various legacy systems (adobe, microsoft, etc.) would be a major issue for adopting EME
# [19:21] <paulc> ack pal
# [19:21] * Zakim sees joesteele_, ddorwin, markw, BobLund on the speaker queue
# [19:22] <krisk> pal: At a very high level, encrypted media comes in, but I have a CDM
# [19:22] <krisk> ..I get a key and decrypt
# [19:22] <krisk> ..or a few others, so I create a connection to the CDM
# [19:22] * Joins: astearns (~sid15080@public.cloak)
# [19:23] <krisk> ..CDM can make a call to get the right keys to the client
# [19:23] <krisk> ..This part doesn't really matter - how the keys get created by the CDM
# [19:23] <krisk> ..I don't understand how this impacts apps
# [19:24] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [19:24] <krisk> ddorwin: It comes down to wanting to release a single key driven by the app and impact the whole session
# [19:25] <krisk> pal: doesn't the api support this?
# [19:25] <krisk> joesteele: But this starts all over
# [19:25] <niels_t> q+
# [19:25] * Zakim sees joesteele_, ddorwin, markw, BobLund, niels_t on the speaker queue
# [19:25] <krisk> ..I'm done releaseing the license for a movie the only way is to release them all
# [19:26] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [19:26] <krisk> ddorwin: joe wants to release some but not all keys
# [19:27] <krisk> joesteel: The CDM can tell the app to release specific keys
# [19:27] <krisk> ..The spec says to release all keys
# [19:27] <krisk> pal: I'm just trying to understand
# [19:27] <krisk> ddorwin: I don't think the spec states this..
# [19:28] <krisk> others agree in the room
# [19:28] <krisk> glenn: But the app has no 'hints'
# [19:28] <krisk> pal: The current spec doesn't block this..
# [19:29] <krisk> pal: are we missing arguments in the release call itself?
# [19:29] <krisk> boblund: If the you want to persist some information then the CDM needs some information
# [19:30] <krisk> ddorwin: Their is ambiguity in this and they exploit this ambigutiy we have interop issues
# [19:30] <krisk> ..We are seeing this in real places that breaks interop
# [19:30] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:31] <krisk> ..This is even using the simple model that makes a Chrome, Microsoft and Adobe app not work when they should
# [19:31] <glenn> q+
# [19:31] * Zakim sees joesteele_, ddorwin, markw, BobLund, niels_t, glenn on the speaker queue
# [19:31] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [19:31] <pal> q+
# [19:31] * Zakim sees joesteele_, ddorwin, markw, BobLund, niels_t, glenn, pal on the speaker queue
# [19:31] <joesteele_> ack joesteele_
# [19:31] * Zakim sees ddorwin, markw, BobLund, niels_t, glenn, pal on the speaker queue
# [19:31] <paulc> ack dd
# [19:31] * Zakim sees markw, BobLund, niels_t, glenn, pal on the speaker queue
# [19:31] <krisk> ddorwin: I want to point out that it's not just about API compliance, it's about the behaviour you get
# [19:32] <krisk> ..So we need to not have this ambiguity
# [19:32] <joesteele_> +q
# [19:32] * Zakim sees markw, BobLund, niels_t, glenn, pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <krisk> ..I have seen in production this breaks interop and solve behaviour compliance and not just the API compliance
# [19:32] <paulc> ack markw
# [19:32] * Zakim sees BobLund, niels_t, glenn, pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [19:33] <krisk> markw: I think that ddorwin if correct that adding complexity is the way to go
# [19:33] <krisk> s/adding/removing/
# [19:33] <joesteele_> my goal is to *hide* the complexity not to expose it
# [19:34] <krisk> markw: The whole point about EME was to make this easy and simple which will address interop on various devices
# [19:34] <ddorwin> I agree with what Mark said above.
# [19:35] <paulc> ack bob
# [19:35] * Zakim sees niels_t, glenn, pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [19:35] <krisk> boblund: I agree with markw that EME should make things as simple as possible
# [19:35] <krisk> boblund: But if we don't suport uses cases that are used today we are not going to get broad adoption
# [19:35] <paulc> ack niel
# [19:35] * Zakim sees glenn, pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [19:36] <krisk> niels_t: from my analysis side channel communication will help interop and enable broad adoption
# [19:37] <krisk> ..I don't know the limits where a specific interop issue will arise with side channel
# [19:37] <krisk> ddorwin: This won't work with current EME and impacts privacy and security (CORS)
# [19:39] <krisk> ddorwin: part of the spec process is to respect normal web security and privacy
# [19:39] <paulc> ack glenn
# [19:39] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [19:39] <krisk> glenn: On a release issue - release is only advisory issue, correct?
# [19:39] <krisk> ddorwin: correct
# [19:39] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [19:39] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to CR: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/043fcbf6006a8c540aedd8dad0a6cf57408bab07
# [19:39] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/CR 043fcbf Robin Berjon: trailing comma in enum SelectionMode...
# [19:39] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [19:39] <krisk> glenn: So adding a hint doesn't seem to increase ambiguity
# [19:39] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [19:39] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/6af16dbb6b11ba3ba71a8696707ae78eaff62726
# [19:39] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master 6af16db Robin Berjon: trailing comma in enum SelectionMode
# [19:39] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [19:39] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:40] <krisk> glenn: since we have not speced the UA to CDM nothing is preventing the UA to create issues
# [19:40] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
# [19:40] <krisk> ..maybe it's not a problem between CDM and UAs
# [19:40] <paulc> q?
# [19:40] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [19:40] <krisk> ..I think their are options here
# [19:40] <krisk> pal: I'm trying get to the actual spec, let's talk about release
# [19:40] <krisk> ..is their a problem with release as spec'd
# [19:41] <krisk> joesteele: Yes it needs to be more specific
# [19:41] <krisk> pal: It's spec'd as a hint...
# [19:41] <krisk> joesteele: I have seem that this has become more than a hit and impacts a CDM
# [19:42] <paulc> ack joe
# [19:42] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [19:42] <krisk> s/hit/hint/
# [19:42] <paulc> ack pal
# [19:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:42] <krisk> joesteele: The last thing I wanted to point out was that adding support for domains increase complexity
# [19:43] <krisk> joesteele: We just need text in the spec that either says this is OK or gets specific
# [19:43] <krisk> ..leaving this in the domain in the CDM
# [19:43] <krisk> paulc: are their any specific bugs to change the release method?
# [19:44] <krisk> ..Because I don't see them..
# [19:44] <krisk> joesteele: Not in the bug just in the email
# [19:45] <krisk> paulc: Let's try to continue on the agenda and assume when we get to the related bug later to skip over since we had a good discussion about this issue
# [19:45] <krisk> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [19:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html krisk
# [19:47] * Quits: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [19:48] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:52] * Quits: Mick_Hakobyan (~Mick_Hakobyan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:52] * Quits: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:59] * Joins: Mick_Hakobyan (~Mick_Hakobyan@public.cloak)
# [20:00] <joesteele_> q:
# [20:00] <joesteele_> q?
# [20:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:01] * Quits: ddorwin (~ddorwin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:03] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:03] <krisk> TOPIC: Bug 25267 - Remove ability for in-memory sessions to be re-used
# [20:03] <krisk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25267
# [20:04] <krisk> paulc: are the dependancies correct?
# [20:04] <krisk> ddorwin: It's to deal with interop issues
# [20:04] <krisk> dorwin: I think we need to have more consistent behaviour
# [20:05] <krisk> ..when doing adaptive streaming you can get the same keys, over and over
# [20:05] <krisk> ..which will create new media sessions
# [20:05] <krisk> ..So this text was added to just re-use an existing session
# [20:06] <krisk> Paulc: is related to 25268?
# [20:06] <krisk> ddorwin: I'd like to find a new way other than this bug..basically if we fix bug 25268 it should resolve this issue
# [20:07] <krisk> pal: can we bring up the text?
# [20:07] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
# [20:07] * Joins: ddorwin (~ddorwin@public.cloak)
# [20:08] <ddorwin> 25267 is referring to the Otherwise branch of step 10 of https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#dom-createsession
# [20:08] <krisk> ddrobin: basically remove all of the checks...
# [20:09] <krisk> ..or maybe refered to in the normative note
# [20:09] <krisk> adrianba: I think it's section 6.2
# [20:10] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
# [20:10] <joesteele_> q+
# [20:10] * Zakim sees joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [20:11] <paulc> ack joe
# [20:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:11] <krisk> ddorwin: I agree with adrianba (other than what we discussed earlier)
# [20:11] <krisk> joesteele: I need more clarity
# [20:11] <krisk> ddorwin: You would always expect a message to be fired
# [20:12] <krisk> pal: TO understand the specific
# [20:12] <krisk> ..step 10 would be changed?
# [20:12] <krisk> paulc: no in step 6 is where it will get done
# [20:12] <joesteele_> q+
# [20:12] * Zakim sees joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [20:13] <krisk> adrianba: yes, at the end in step 10 you can move to ready
# [20:13] * Joins: BobLund (~BobLund@public.cloak)
# [20:13] <krisk> ..basically you don't need to fire a message
# [20:13] <krisk> ..so step 6 part 2 make this required
# [20:14] <krisk> pal: request variable, what is the variable type?
# [20:14] <krisk> adrianba: the message attribute has this information
# [20:14] <krisk> pal: the proposal is to always fire the message, but could be null
# [20:15] <krisk> adrianba: could be an empty array
# [20:16] <krisk> adrianba: I think having empty messages could cause more interop issues
# [20:16] <krisk> ddorwin: I agree with adrianba
# [20:16] <krisk> joesteele: I don't here is whay..
# [20:16] <krisk> s/whay/why/
# [20:17] <krisk> one case is that the device has the key and not need to make a request
# [20:17] <krisk> ddorwin: This is not interoperable
# [20:18] <krisk> joesteele: I like the way the spec is today..
# [20:18] <krisk> paulc: what should we do with these bugs?
# [20:19] <krisk> ddorwin: I know what I'd like to do with these bugs...
# [20:19] <krisk> ...not take this change and accept 25268
# [20:19] <krisk> adrianba: I don't understand why making firing the event optional makes writitng apps harder
# [20:20] <krisk> ddorwin: This came from app devs...
# [20:20] <krisk> ddorwin: I'd like to solve the overall problem and then this goes away
# [20:20] <krisk> pal: Do we have specifics from an app dev why making this change makes it easier
# [20:21] <krisk> ddorwin: putting the app in control - maybe they want a new session is lost with this change
# [20:21] <krisk> paulc: so their is no symetry
# [20:22] <krisk> adrianba: why would you want this??
# [20:23] <krisk> pal: is it that the app started a new session and didn't get a new key from the cdm
# [20:23] <krisk> ..on the new session?
# [20:23] <krisk> ddorwin: yes that is what was presented to me
# [20:23] <adrianba> q?
# [20:23] * Zakim sees joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [20:24] <krisk> ddorwin: it's really up to the CDM
# [20:24] <krisk> joesteele: It really is that the CDM may or maynot provide a key
# [20:24] <krisk> ..maybe add another flag?
# [20:25] <krisk> ddorwin: I'd rather move to the next bug which will fix this issue
# [20:25] <krisk> paulc: will the editors take on these bugs?
# [20:25] <krisk> adrianba: we have not reached concensus on 25267
# [20:25] <krisk> ..and have not discussed 25268 to set the scene
# [20:26] <krisk> with 25268 ddorwin is describing a problem we have discussed a few times
# [20:26] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25268
# [20:26] <krisk> ..basically you end up with multiple net requests...
# [20:27] <krisk> ..it doesn't sound like this woudl be a complete fix
# [20:27] <krisk> ddorwin: 25268 is the biggest issue for EME app devs..
# [20:27] <krisk> Bug 25268 - Reduce the burden on applications to dedupe initData from
# [20:28] <krisk> ddorwin: what is an app to do? simplest is to ignore but is key system specific
# [20:28] <krisk> ..the goal is to allow the app to know what to do...
# [20:28] <krisk> ..The previous misses some cases
# [20:28] <krisk> ...It pretty complex for an app to deal with..
# [20:28] <krisk> ..and might break down with key rotation
# [20:29] <krisk> ..even in the previous bug you'll end up with hundreds of sessions which is not good
# [20:29] <paulc> Review previous bugs related to this: (bug 16553, bug 19208, bug 21855)
# [20:29] <krisk> paulc: Please review the old bugs listed in 25268
# [20:30] <krisk> TOPIC: Bug 25269 - Add a container-independent initialization data type for
# [20:30] <krisk> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25269
# [20:30] <krisk> ddorwin: nothing fundemental says that the keys must come from the media
# [20:31] <krisk> ..basically it's container independent structure for keys or psh systems
# [20:31] <krisk> ..the license request should not be restricted by a container format
# [20:31] <joesteele_> q+
# [20:31] * Zakim sees joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [20:32] <krisk> ..simple just need to make it accessible via javascript
# [20:32] <krisk> ..herry was asking why psh's are even needed?
# [20:32] <paulc> See historical email about PSSHs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013May/0018.html
# [20:32] <@plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [20:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html plh
# [20:33] <krisk> ...but this is ortho to this issue
# [20:33] <paulc> ack joe
# [20:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:33] <krisk> joesteele: The reason I brought this up - not that this is a bad idea
# [20:33] <krisk> joesteele: How would one support this for content that exists
# [20:34] <adrianba> q+
# [20:34] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:34] <krisk> ..the only mechansim for how I would support tihs would be to make a new request and I would get the actual psh
# [20:34] <krisk> ..which leads to what is in the session, since thie psh is now part of the session
# [20:35] <krisk> ..It's not a bad idea but I don't see how this would work for DRM's that use pshs
# [20:35] <krisk> ddorwin: This is part of accepting using EME
# [20:35] <krisk> joesteele: This is fundemental to how DRM exists today
# [20:36] <krisk> ddorwin: If an app wants to do this then their key systems needs to support this but it's not required.
# [20:36] <krisk> ..We are not replacing PSHs
# [20:36] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [20:36] <krisk> ..adrianba has a nice change in the spe
# [20:36] <ddorwin> initDataType registry: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/encrypted-media/initdata-format-registry.html
# [20:36] <krisk> s/spec/spec/
# [20:37] <krisk> We would add a new item but all of these are optional, just like webm or cenc
# [20:37] <krisk> paulc: any more need to discuss
# [20:37] <adrianba> q?
# [20:37] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:38] <krisk> joesteele: doesn't seem to do damage but doesn't seem to support my DRM system
# [20:38] <krisk> joesteele: what is missing?
# [20:38] <krisk> ..we would need to have more information in the session
# [20:38] <krisk> ddorwin: you can do this today
# [20:39] <paulc> q?
# [20:39] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:39] <paulc> ack ad
# [20:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:39] <krisk> adrianba: The one question I had was the for the other intitData types, we talk about how they get called
# [20:39] <krisk> ..is this just for call createsession with?
# [20:40] <niels_t> q+
# [20:40] * Zakim sees niels_t on the speaker queue
# [20:40] <krisk> adrianba: it sounds like a good solution when you get keys from a manifest
# [20:40] <krisk> ..so it seems reasonable
# [20:40] <krisk> ddorwin: only need to figureout the best format
# [20:40] <paulc> ack niels
# [20:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:40] <krisk> neils
# [20:41] <krisk> neils: To support joe's view we have simalar need to persist the pshs
# [20:41] <jaymunro> s/PSHs/PSSHs
# [20:41] <krisk> TOPIC: Bug 25092 - Need a way to inform script that resolution restrictions
# [20:41] <krisk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25092
# [20:42] <krisk> Looks like Mark responded
# [20:42] <krisk> paulc: what is the next step here
# [20:42] <krisk> ddorwin: We don't have a good use case for this issue
# [20:42] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25092#c8
# [20:42] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25092#c9
# [20:42] <pal> q+
# [20:42] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [20:43] <krisk> markw: I'm looking right now..
# [20:43] <krisk> pal: we discussed this in the past that was simalar
# [20:43] <krisk> ..for example some css transformation may not be available
# [20:44] <krisk> ..seems like we don't have a way to inform the app what is available, permitted or not permitted
# [20:45] <krisk> glenn: no real way to do this in general - some terrible poor hueristics
# [20:45] <krisk> markw: the multiple key thinks looks like a hack
# [20:45] <ddorwin> s/We don't have a good use case for this issue/We don't have an agreed upon solution for this issue/
# [20:47] <krisk> paulc: we'll just continue the dialog in the bug, please add your comments to the bug
# [20:47] <krisk> TOPIC: Bug 25200 - Add optional "licenseType" parameter to createSession()
# [20:47] <krisk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25200
# [20:47] <paulc> See clarification in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25200#c6
# [20:48] <krisk> ddorwin: I was going for the normal streaming case as well as persisted (offline on a plane)
# [20:48] <joesteele_> q+
# [20:48] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [20:48] <krisk> ddorwin: app needs to tell drm what it wants - save to play later (offline) for example
# [20:49] <krisk> ddorwin: The others are TBD or other session types...
# [20:49] <krisk> paulc: we have a long email thread, is the related?
# [20:49] <markw> q+
# [20:49] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_, markw on the speaker queue
# [20:49] <krisk> ddorwin: I tried to clarify that I am trying to solve the offline case, though other cases are being discussed
# [20:50] <krisk> ..I'm trying to get back to the main use case and then from their we could potentially build on the enum
# [20:50] <krisk> ..to support other use cases
# [20:50] <adrianba> q+
# [20:50] * Zakim sees pal, joesteele_, markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:50] <paulc> ack pal
# [20:50] * Zakim sees joesteele_, markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:50] <paulc> ack joe
# [20:50] * Zakim sees markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:50] <paulc> ack markw
# [20:51] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:51] <paulc> ack ad
# [20:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:51] <joesteele_> q+
# [20:51] * Zakim sees joesteele_ on the speaker queue
# [20:51] * markw actually, I wanted to be on the queue but did not get to the unmute fast enough!
# [20:51] <markw> q+
# [20:51] * Zakim sees joesteele_, markw on the speaker queue
# [20:52] <krisk> adrianba: The message signature - I'd like a dictionary, since I'm worried we need to add another para later
# [20:52] <krisk> s/para/param/
# [20:52] <krisk> ddorwin: the point of this is to make it obvious so as long as the dictionary is specific
# [20:52] <paulc> ack joe
# [20:52] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [20:53] <pal> q+
# [20:53] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
# [20:53] <krisk> joesteele: I wanted to add one more, I'm more conserned about persistance to not keep request access
# [20:53] <krisk> ..but I do support the dictionary proposal from adrianba
# [20:54] <paulc> ack mark
# [20:54] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [20:54] <krisk> ddorwin: The type may have more information if it's persisted or no (flags)
# [20:55] <krisk> markw: will the server need do anything differenent?
# [20:55] <krisk> ddorwin: I'm aware of two cases...
# [20:55] <krisk> joesteele: if it's an open device (kiosk) the app may want to NOT persist stuff
# [20:55] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@public.cloak)
# [20:56] <krisk> joesteele: it's really about providing a hint
# [20:56] <krisk> ddorwin: the goal is to allow an app to make a specific request
# [20:56] <krisk> ddorwin: multiple systems have this in the request today
# [20:56] <adrianba> q+
# [20:56] * Zakim sees pal, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:57] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [20:57] <krisk> Markw: asking question...
# [20:58] <krisk> markw: I don't disgree with the proposal, but I don't think in your case we want to use the persistance
# [20:59] <krisk> markw: it might be temporary so you can actually persist this information
# [20:59] <krisk> ddorwin: yes
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# [21:00] <markw> s/so you can actually persist this information/but you my still have a persistent session even though the license and keys were temporary/
# [21:00] <krisk> paulc: Lets' see if we can talk about content editable during the IAB talk from 14:00 -> 15:00
# [21:01] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [21:04] <krisk> paulc: We need to discuss when EME TF wants to meet - maybe next tuesday
# [21:04] <krisk> dorwin: we need people to respond first to make session
# [21:05] <krisk> paulc: maybe the EME folks can meet today and work on these issues working F2F
# [21:06] <krisk> room agrees to take advantage of F2F to discuss more about these EME issues and make more progress
# [21:06] <krisk> paulc: It would be great to take simple notes and send to the group
# [21:07] <krisk> We are now breaking for lunch and will meet back at 13:00 (DOM4 stuff)
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# [21:08] -gitbot:#html-wg- [validator] sideshowbarker pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/validator/validator/compare/6d683741370f...ce09a2bf571e
# [21:08] -gitbot:#html-wg- validator/master 4bf9182 Michael[tm] Smith: Simplify the default version string for the CLI.
# [21:08] -gitbot:#html-wg- validator/master ce09a2b Michael[tm] Smith: For warnings, "Bad value"⇒ "Potentially bad value"
# [21:08] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [21:08] * markw ok, bye everyone
# [21:10] <adrianba> q?
# [21:10] * Zakim sees pal, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [21:10] <adrianba> queue=
# [21:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [22:01] <cyns> scribe: cyns
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# [22:01] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML5.0AtRiskFeatures#DOM4_Features_at_Risk
# [22:02] <cyns> TOPIC: DOM 4 test results and features at risk
# [22:03] <darobin> Elements interface (whole section), query/queryAll
# [22:03] <darobin> ArrayClass extended attribute
# [22:03] <darobin> append/prepend
# [22:03] <darobin> before/after/replace
# [22:03] <darobin> MutationObservers
# [22:03] <cyns> robin: we have a small set of features at risk.
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# [22:04] <cyns> robin: I"m not sure that these aren't supported, but I'm sure that we don't have enough tests to prove it
# [22:04] <cyns> robin: the first 2 are known failures
# [22:04] <cyns> robin: the last 3 are new things where we don't have enough tests
# [22:05] <paulc> Based on analysis of: http://w3c.github.io/dom/test-results/less-than-2.html
# [22:05] <paulc> Test files with failures: 43; Subtests with fewer than 2 passes: 1719; Failure level: 1719/47132 (3.65%)
# [22:06] <cyns> robin: I tried to err on teh side of including things in the at-risk list, so we are as safe as possible.
# [22:06] <darobin> http://w3c.github.io/dom/test-results/less-than-2.html#test-file-36
# [22:06] <cyns> robin: if we test and they pass, we just keep them
# [22:06] <cyns> robin: less than 2 list has not changed since yesterday.
# [22:06] <cyns> robin: most are idl, many others are corner cases.
# [22:06] <paulc> Majority of failures are IDL failures whch we need to filter out to explain.
# [22:07] <cyns> robin: overall test results are pretty good
# [22:07] <cyns> pc: keeping track of our 10 different documents that express status
# [22:08] <krisk> MutationObservers is implemented in all browsers
# [22:08] <krisk> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/MutationObserver?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=DOM%2FMutationObserver
# [22:08] <krisk> Unlike the prepend and append https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/ParentNode
# [22:08] <cyns> pc: robin was to prepare a candidate cr, with changes to red text. we didn't set a date for that
# [22:08] <krisk> q+
# [22:08] * Zakim sees krisk on the speaker queue
# [22:08] <cyns> pc: we proposed a min length of 30 days for cr. we also identified 5 items at risk
# [22:09] <cyns> pc: we also need to have a meeting with the director. when do we want to do that, and do we want to do them together?
# [22:09] <cyns> robin: don't think we need to coordinate publications, but a single meeting would be ok.
# [22:10] <cyns> pc: a phone call with Ralph may be enough
# [22:10] <cyns> pc: I will also send an announcement to the chairs list
# [22:11] <cyns> pc: will you do a page, like we have for canvas, that explains the bad results?
# [22:12] <cyns> robin: yes
# [22:12] <darobin> ACTION: Robin to draft a page explaining the failures in the DOM test suite
# [22:12] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [22:12] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:12] <trackbot> Created ACTION-244 - Draft a page explaining the failures in the dom test suite [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-16].
# [22:12] <cyns> kris: the features at risk, mutation observers are in a different class than append and prepend
# [22:12] <cyns> plh: class?
# [22:13] <cyns> kris: I don't think any browsers support append/prepend. we have some tests for mutation observers, and mozilla has an implementation
# [22:13] <cyns> kris: if you write a test for mutation observers, you may find it exists. not so for append/prepend
# [22:14] <cyns> ACTION: krisk to submit mutation observer tests to webplatform
# [22:14] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [22:14] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:14] <trackbot> Error finding 'krisk'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
# [22:15] <@plh> trackbot, list users
# [22:15] <trackbot> Sorry, plh, I don't understand 'trackbot, list users'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
# [22:15] * Quits: markw (~markw@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:16] <cyns> pc: when can you give us the draft document
# [22:16] <cyns> robin: in a couple weeks
# [22:16] * MarkS just added krisk as an alias for kris krueger
# [22:16] <@plh> ACTION: kris to submit mutation observer tests to webplatform
# [22:16] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:16] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [22:16] <trackbot> Created ACTION-245 - Submit mutation observer tests to webplatform [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-16].
# [22:17] <jaymunro> TOPIC: content editable
# [22:17] <adrianba> scribe:jaymunro
# [22:17] <adrianba> http://oksoclap.com/p/extensible_content_editing
# [22:18] <jaymunro> adrianb at the extnesible web summit break out session
# [22:18] <jaymunro> editing in general
# [22:18] <jaymunro> what'll improve operablity. high level point of view
# [22:19] <jaymunro> content edited should be done in detail, so all browser could do it the same
# [22:19] <jaymunro> other - not necessary to do the same results in all browsers
# [22:19] <jaymunro> Doesn't think that kind of precision is necessary
# [22:20] <jaymunro> because of bugs in browsers, differences, there isn't good interop here. Most editing libs try to override all the browser does for you.
# [22:20] <jaymunro> editors do it themselves.
# [22:20] <JohnJansen> s/operablity/interoperability
# [22:20] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [22:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
# [22:21] <cyns> q+
# [22:21] * Zakim sees krisk, cyns on the speaker queue
# [22:21] <jaymunro> some wanted rich html, some wanted different styles, etc...
# [22:21] <jaymunro> discussed creating a new content editable.
# [22:21] <jaymunro> very basic
# [22:22] <jaymunro> last thing, had a good discussion about improving selection api. Robin mentioned overlap with webaps
# [22:22] <jaymunro> Microsoft thinks it's key to the browser.
# [22:22] <jaymunro> bi directional, consistent selection
# [22:22] <jaymunro> like to focus on the selection API.
# [22:22] <jaymunro> robin: the selection API is in web apps
# [22:22] <jaymunro> the content editable cojuld go in HTML
# [22:23] <jaymunro> ade: the editing command would work better on a range.
# [22:23] <krisk> s/cojuld/could/
# [22:23] <jaymunro> robin; contentent edita ble = basic, would this work better.
# [22:23] <jaymunro> ade:
# [22:23] <jaymunro> we didn't spend time drilling down
# [22:24] <jaymunro> from my perseptive the more basic ediable, it disables the intgeraction peices.
# [22:24] <jaymunro> s/intgeration/interaction
# [22:24] <jaymunro> discussion of whether pressing enter, what does it do.
# [22:25] <rubys> s/contentent edita ble/content editable
# [22:25] <jaymunro> what should hitting enter i- n a time element.
# [22:26] <jaymunro> robin: web frameworks, feedback went 90%. composing characters can be wrong, customers just says give us events.
# [22:26] <jaymunro> cyn: some people want full rich editor to do everything. people just want a tag for a rich editor
# [22:27] <jaymunro> confusion on what basic means
# [22:27] <cyns> ack me
# [22:27] * Zakim sees krisk on the speaker queue
# [22:27] <krisk> ack krisk
# [22:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:28] <jaymunro> pc: are we talking about having work split between working groups
# [22:28] <jaymunro> robin: how much work is needed, how much work is needed for content editable
# [22:28] <jaymunro> ade: feels to me that we should serialize the work. solving for selection api, will give us the frame work for how to change editing
# [22:29] <cyns> my point was more about a simple rich text editor that covers the simple cases, like blog posts and comments, that web authors could just drop in with an element, and not have to code.
# [22:29] <cyns> and that such and element would be wired up to accessibility api, and also create clean markup
# [22:29] <jaymunro> pc: do we need a report back for webaps?
# [22:29] <jaymunro> robin: no, we don't need extra coordination.
# [22:29] <jaymunro> doing them one after the other is good
# [22:30] <jaymunro> we don't need to do anything on the HTML front yet
# [22:30] <jaymunro> cyn: is there any support in 5.1 and later ?
# [22:31] <jaymunro> ted: a lot of the content editable, they want the controls fit in with the adds. there's a challenge to design the controls.
# [22:31] <jaymunro> we did ok for video controls.
# [22:31] <jaymunro> ade: almost everybody has diff requirements, like blog comments, what styles, use css, etc?
# [22:31] <jaymunro> even for similar cases they have diff req..
# [22:32] <jaymunro> ted: it worth considering that platform feature set, where content editing gets used heavily,
# [22:32] <jaymunro> cyn: what Im thinkinmg about is not fancy, for the people who don't need to go searching for controls.
# [22:33] <jaymunro> robin: it would be good to have a rich text area, like text area,
# [22:34] <jaymunro> robin: even for trivial cases, like linking - a lot of small subtlities. need someone comes to ta ble with a good description
# [22:34] <jaymunro> ade: we need a web component for this, if it satisfied it requirements, then we'll see if it goes into the platform.
# [22:35] <jaymunro> ted: I'd extend my worry to the basic set, we don't want to make authors redo stuff.
# [22:36] <jaymunro> mark: i could see dev doinig a markdown for a user.
# [22:36] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [22:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
# [22:37] <jaymunro> robin: the advangtage over the min model over current model,-
# [22:37] <jaymunro> some users using the json model to create markup
# [22:39] <@plh> Topic: HTML5 Features at risk
# [22:39] <@plh> scribe: plh
# [22:39] <darobin> robin: the substance.io people use a nicer MVC approach that doesn't mix editing the view with editing the model
# [22:39] <@plh> Paul: appcache, we keep
# [22:39] <@plh> ... dialog, details, sumary, not decided
# [22:39] <@plh> ... color, keep
# [22:39] <@plh> ... we're on datetime ow
# [22:39] <@plh> s/ow/now/
# [22:40] <darobin> https://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML5.0AtRiskFeatures#HTML_5.0_Features_at_Risk
# [22:41] <@plh> Robin: I have a proposal
# [22:41] <@plh> ... things to remove, things to keep at risk
# [22:42] <@plh> ... DataCue, we don't have tests
# [22:42] <@plh> Glenn: it's not in webkit or blink
# [22:42] <@plh> ... I'd prefer it to be at risk
# [22:43] <@plh> Mike: it's likely that DataCue will change
# [22:43] * Parts: @plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [22:43] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [22:44] <plh> Glenn: some features from texttrackcue attribute
# [22:45] <plh> ... were removed and, in response, datacue was added
# [22:45] <plh> Robin: the feature can be removed easily
# [22:46] <plh> Ted: i'll write a proposal to modify datacue
# [22:46] <plh> Robin: details and summary should be killed
# [22:46] <plh> Sam: Steve Faulkner that implementation don't match the spec anyway
# [22:46] <plh> Robin: dialog?
# [22:47] <plh> ... it's in a semi disrepaired state
# [22:47] <plh> Mike: they're still working on it
# [22:47] <plh> Ted: lots of questions around it, like focus management
# [22:48] <plh> Robin: we don't have implementation at all for it
# [22:48] <plh> ... ok dialog will be removed
# [22:49] <tantek> also: dialog should go into an extension spec rather than 5.1
# [22:49] <plh> Robin: :die, :invalid, :valid
# [22:49] <plh> s/die/dir/
# [22:49] <plh> Robin: firefox does valid and invalid
# [22:50] <plh> ... no one does :dir
# [22:50] <darobin> http://www.w3c-test.org/html/semantics/selectors/pseudo-classes/valid-invalid.html
# [22:51] <plh> Robin: let's drop :dir, and keep :valid, :invalid for the moment
# [22:51] * Parts: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [22:51] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [22:51] <krisk> MDN has a nice example that seems to work fine in a few browsers
# [22:51] <krisk> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/:invalid
# [22:51] <hober> e.g. the WebKit bug is marked RESO FIXED https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27357
# [22:51] <plh> Tantek: I thought we had interop on valid and invalid btw
# [22:52] <plh> Robin: iframe/seamless
# [22:52] <krisk> I agree with tantek...
# [22:52] <plh> Sean: it's tough to implement. I would move it out of 5.0
# [22:52] <plh> ... it needs more work and use cases
# [22:53] <adrianba> here is our valid/invalid test drive; http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/HTML5/Forms/ - click on New PseudoClasses tab
# [22:53] <plh> ... I don't see how we can use this effectively
# [22:53] <plh> Robin: Chrome removed it
# [22:53] <tantek> Gecko bug for iframe seamless: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=631218
# [22:54] <plh> Ted: safari supports it
# [22:54] <JohnJansen> no one minuted paul?
# [22:54] <plh> Mike: the other feedback is that it doesn't match the needs fro the devs
# [22:54] <plh> Tantek: candidate for extension spec
# [22:54] <plh> Sean: agree
# [22:55] <plh> Robin: I'm ok for extension spec, but someone needs to pick it up
# [22:55] * rubys notes that there is 5 minutes to the next agenda item
# [22:55] <plh> iframe/seamless is out
# [22:56] <hober> re: :invalid and :valid pseudoclasses, they seem to work fine for me in Safari 7: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/css/pseudo-invalid-001.html?format=raw
# [22:56] <plh> Robin: isContentHandlerRegistered/isProtocolHandlerRegistered aren't implemented
# [22:56] <plh> ... ok removed
# [22:56] <plh> Robin: input times+
# [22:57] <plh> Tantek: date ok?
# [22:57] <plh> Robin: yes
# [22:57] <adrianba> hober, that works in IE11 too
# [22:57] <plh> Tantek: don't understand why datetime doesn't have interop
# [22:58] * Joins: wwu (wuwei@public.cloak)
# [22:58] <plh> Robin: we could put it at risk and keep time only
# [22:58] * hober adrianba: :)
# [22:59] <tantek> plh no I said don't understand why *time* doesn't have interop
# [22:59] <plh> s/datetime/time/
# [23:00] <plh> [short interrupt]
# [23:01] <tantek> tantek: it's also useful to keep input type=time as that then provides developers with a building block, along with input type=date, to build their own composite datetime UIs
# [23:01] * plh thanks Tantek
# [23:01] * adrianba JohnJansen, we'll drink on your behalf
# [23:02] <jaymunro> scribe:jaymunro
# [23:02] * JohnJansen adrianba three pints please
# [23:02] <jaymunro> TOPIC: IAB
# [23:03] * Joins: wuwei (wuwei@public.cloak)
# [23:03] <jaymunro> presenting: chris mejia IAB, sean snider yahoo, prabhakar goyal, microsoft.
# [23:03] <paulc> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Apr/att-0036/IAB_HTML5_Security_Extension_Proposal.pdf
# [23:03] <jaymunro> chrisM: here with sean and prabhaker.
# [23:03] <jaymunro> brief intro what IAB isd
# [23:04] <jaymunro> s/isd/is
# [23:04] <jaymunro> agenda: intro, use case, safeframe over view, html5 sandbox/csp, next steps
# [23:05] <jaymunro> Interactive Advertising bureau
# [23:05] <jaymunro> membership of online media companies
# [23:05] <jaymunro> only ad group just digital
# [23:05] <jaymunro> over 600 members
# [23:05] <jaymunro> 86% of ads in us are on IAB membersites
# [23:06] <jaymunro> our interests - we develop digital ad standards
# [23:06] <jaymunro> IAB recently part of W3C
# [23:06] * Quits: wwu (wuwei@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:07] <jaymunro> ad content served from 3rd parties in real time
# [23:07] <jaymunro> concerned with site and user security
# [23:07] * Joins: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak)
# [23:07] <jaymunro> most web content is paid ads, they belive in the free web (ad paid)
# [23:08] <jaymunro> Prab: use case real time content serving
# [23:08] <jaymunro> showing a diagram,
# [23:08] <jaymunro> common case : goes to ad serverf
# [23:08] <jaymunro> s/serverf/server
# [23:09] <jaymunro> browser calls exchange, calls ad server, if no ad, returns. if ad served, advertiser are sent to be bid on, highest bidder wins
# [23:10] <jaymunro> the publisher doesn't know what ad content is
# [23:10] <jaymunro> you can't use a black or white list to control content.
# [23:10] <jaymunro> publisher areas of concern:
# [23:10] <jaymunro> isolation, separation between publsher and 3rd party
# [23:11] <jaymunro> ad tag is usually a script. always done that way, sometimes an iframe
# [23:11] <jaymunro> (intro into SafeFrame)
# [23:11] <jaymunro> no way to monitor scripts in real time.
# [23:12] <jaymunro> looking to control data leakage, content, cookies, data
# [23:12] <jaymunro> prevent js and css collision
# [23:12] <jaymunro> but allow rich interactions with out providing full access (covered by safeframe + iframe
# [23:12] <jaymunro> controls auto play, restricts certain media types
# [23:13] <jaymunro> allows rich interaction without full access.
# [23:13] <jaymunro> Ability to control other attack surface areas - prefent downloads
# [23:14] <jaymunro> sean: use case - Safe frame - a cross domain iframe
# [23:14] <jaymunro> where we stick the content, but wrap it with a javascript library, each frame defines a lib the content can talk to
# [23:14] * Joins: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [23:15] <jaymunro> host decides whether actions are takein when iframe request info.
# [23:15] <jaymunro> agnostic domain - hosts a base level doc.
# [23:16] <jaymunro> some data sharing - events from browser , we send msgs to iframe -
# [23:16] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:16] <jaymunro> SafeFrame APIs - agnostic origin, every safe fram e is in the same origin, talk to each other, but not top level
# [23:17] <jaymunro> display ads are snippets of html, freeform js and html.
# [23:17] <jaymunro> alwyas delivered with script or iframe.
# [23:17] <jaymunro> s/alwyas/always
# [23:18] <jaymunro> safeframe will let them show a display ad, it just works, doesn't need changes.
# [23:18] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [23:18] <jaymunro> host creates an safeframe iframe, handles interaction between host and server.
# [23:19] <jaymunro> HTML5 sandbox - similar to safeframe.
# [23:19] <jaymunro> sanbox attributes are too coarse grain, additional areas of control that publishers want
# [23:20] <jaymunro> IAB wants enhancements to allow finer controls, ie ability to restrict
# [23:21] <jaymunro> safe frame sets up xdomain plus csp- can't whitelist individual content, but can restict certain plug ins, or downloads (eg)
# [23:22] <jaymunro> showed a list comparing safeframe, sandbox, and csp
# [23:23] <jaymunro> things like allow/block plugins, plugin types, media types, require user interactions.
# [23:23] <jaymunro> one thing to controls that's desiared is autoplay.
# [23:23] <jaymunro> s/desiared/desired
# [23:24] <jaymunro> problem with nested scripts/iframes
# [23:24] <jaymunro> very challenging
# [23:24] <jaymunro> chris; trying to protect user and advertiser.
# [23:25] <jaymunro> as publisher, they're always under attack by nefarious
# [23:25] <jaymunro> persons
# [23:25] <jaymunro> sean: we're trying to give more control
# [23:26] <jaymunro> showing more features
# [23:26] <jaymunro> that's our presentation in a nutshell - questions
# [23:27] <jaymunro> greg: to what extent does tech rely on extensions addons.
# [23:27] <jaymunro> sean: pure HTML, no plugins. one hack. undlying doc is cachable so you don't have a separate request for every piece of content
# [23:28] <jaymunro> greg: the original site/webpage right,
# [23:28] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:28] <jaymunro> sean: Yes. they way we set up the spec, there are rules where you can't embed this in other iframe or host in "evil.com"
# [23:29] <jaymunro> chris: google is releasing safeframe in one area end of summer (DFP)
# [23:29] <jaymunro> sean: because now you have a clear box, you have more options.
# [23:30] <jaymunro> you couldn't do that before.
# [23:30] <jaymunro> you have much more control.
# [23:31] <jaymunro> chris: thank you for your time. we've talked with philip and others. Trying to find positive things to work on, and bridge the groups.
# [23:31] <jaymunro> we should be not doing everything on our own.
# [23:32] <jaymunro> we'd like to get your input.
# [23:32] <adrianba> q+
# [23:32] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [23:32] <jaymunro> questions?
# [23:32] * Joins: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak)
# [23:32] <jaymunro> robin: uses cases make sense. most of what you want are extension to sandbox?
# [23:33] <jaymunro> sean: sandbox is too course, we need more fine grain.
# [23:33] <jaymunro> csp - content security policy
# [23:33] <jaymunro> csp is in w3 on rec track
# [23:34] <jaymunro> white listing at a feature level might work.
# [23:34] <jaymunro> but not at content level
# [23:35] <jaymunro> robin: no rule of thumb of where this concept will live, sandbox or csp.
# [23:35] <jaymunro> sandbox easier to implement for users.
# [23:36] <jaymunro> maybe merge both
# [23:36] <jaymunro> you don't need to block on where to solve thse things.
# [23:36] <jaymunro> it's not a big deal to move features between the two (csp/sandbox)
# [23:36] <jaymunro> at some point we'll figure the best way.
# [23:37] <plh> ack adrianba
# [23:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:37] <jaymunro> ade: there definitly needs to be coordination with web app security. the best way to get it goiong is to write a spec
# [23:38] <jaymunro> pc: do you guys understand what an extension spec. just need to write it and post it to get discussion on the html-wg
# [23:38] <jaymunro> robin: if it needs to move, we can do it later.
# [23:38] <jaymunro> pc: the chairs and the team are very willing to work with you.
# [23:39] <jaymunro> the web consortium encourages modularity
# [23:39] <jaymunro> if it grows, we can give it a bugzilla component.
# [23:39] <jaymunro> sean: if you have an origin in a sandbox, how does iframe know it's been sandboxed.
# [23:40] <jaymunro> robin: don't believe it does.
# [23:40] <jaymunro> ade: expectation is that these things are coordinated.
# [23:41] <jaymunro> sean: a simpler case is a service provider spawns an iframe, - I don't know if they coordinate for a sandbox.
# [23:43] <jaymunro> chris: you may have read about this recently, its estimated that ad insustry is being defrauded in 1-6 billion dollars. follow the money back to sophisticated crime blocks.
# [23:43] <jaymunro> mostly eastern block with engineers that can't get legit work.
# [23:44] <jaymunro> told story about callcenter of malicious ad center
# [23:45] <jaymunro> bad guys using ads to launder money. biggest thing is using bots. best way to deliver a bot is thorugh ads.
# [23:45] <jaymunro> s/thorugh/through
# [23:45] * plh wonders if now is the right time to talk about WebDriver :)
# [23:46] <jaymunro> talked about bogus ads
# [23:46] <jaymunro> sean: is it possible to know if it's in a browser and not a programmable user agent.
# [23:47] <jaymunro> someone loads pages and fake clicks through.
# [23:47] <jaymunro> robin: the only way is to put DRM on the browser engines.
# [23:47] <jaymunro> Michel: is that a bad thing robin?
# [23:47] <plh> s/Michel/Mike/
# [23:48] <jaymunro> robin: the browser needs to be on a secure elementl.
# [23:48] <jaymunro> s/elementl/element
# [23:49] <jaymunro> sean: there are a lot of good uses for scripting access, but it also is used for bad things.
# [23:49] * Joins: wwu (wuwei@public.cloak)
# [23:49] <jaymunro> prak: it's a problem that is getting bigger.
# [23:49] * Joins: dsinger_ (~dsinger@public.cloak)
# [23:50] <jaymunro> robin: first thing is to ask webapps if it's in their scope.
# [23:50] <jaymunro> then I'd go to the websecrity IG,
# [23:50] <jaymunro> no promise for solution.
# [23:51] <jaymunro> chris: is this a security issue or a fraud issue. usually to do the fraud, there's a securty issue.
# [23:51] <jaymunro> s/securty/security
# [23:52] <jaymunro> problem is that there's a symbiotic relationships in the industry, there's consequences .
# [23:52] * plh the other way is to remove the humans
# [23:52] <jaymunro> greed rules, companies looking the other way.
# [23:53] * Quits: dsinger (~dsinger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:53] * dsinger_ is now known as dsinger
# [23:53] <jaymunro> sean: loading javascript into webpages can be really evil. but some are making money.
# [23:53] * Quits: wuwei (wuwei@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:54] <jaymunro> chris: these issues are being discussed at all levels, law inforcement, etc... if there are technical ways to work on this it would be good.
# [23:54] <jaymunro> pc: interviews with michael lewis, about trapdoor in trading markets where the margin costs went down.
# [23:55] <jaymunro> the fact that the stockmarkets sell their trading stream, they can take advantage.
# [23:56] <jaymunro> chris: when we first talked about this, one of the sec firms told us where they follwed money to banks. they're all connected to ad networks
# [23:57] * Quits: anssik (~uid10742@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [23:57] <jaymunro> pc: although michael lewis makes money on the book, the iax exchange has passed on 800 tips to the FBI
# [23:57] <jaymunro> the general point, the more public it is, the better it could be.
# [23:57] * Quits: lgombos (~gombos@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:58] * Quits: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [23:59] <jaymunro> rrsagent,generate minutes
# [23:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html jaymunro
# Session Close: Thu Apr 10 00:00:00 2014

The end :)