/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2014-10-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 02 00:00:01 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  59. # [11:20] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] stevefaulkner pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/fd501aa4b6167338bd994609e89d267fd2f1b422
  60. # [11:20] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/master fd501aa steve faulkner: added lang attribute to html elements examples
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  90. # [18:01] <tantek> good morning HTMLWG
  91. # [18:02] <darobin> hey tantek
  92. # [18:02] * Joins: janina (~janina@public.cloak)
  93. # [18:02] * tantek checks the email archives
  94. # [18:02] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  95. # [18:02] <plh> no meeting today
  96. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P20
  97. # [18:03] <Zakim> -??P20
  98. # [18:03] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  99. # [18:03] <Zakim> Attendees were
  100. # [18:03] <tantek> Zakim, who is here?
  101. # [18:03] <Zakim> apparently HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended, tantek
  102. # [18:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see janina, tantek, Lachy_, nicolasbadia, ShaneM, anssik, SteveF, plh, darobin, stryx`, gavin_, cwilso, slightlyoff, tommorris, mattur_, ed, krit, timeless, MarkS,
  103. # [18:03] <Zakim> ... johndrinkwater, paul___irish, cabanier, pdr__, tobie, Zakim, Hixie, krijnhoetmer, Josh_Soref___, AAA_awright, tH, hober, logbot, heycam|away, Philip, jgraham, decadance, jmb,
  104. # [18:03] <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, gsnedders, trackbot
  105. # [18:03] * plh changes topic to 'October 2 meeting is cancelled'
  106. # [18:03] <tantek> plh, link?
  107. # [18:03] <plh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2014OctDec/0000.html
  108. # [18:04] <tommorris> shortest WG meeting ever. :)
  109. # [18:04] <plh> zakim, bye
  110. # [18:04] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  111. # [18:05] <tantek> seriously
  112. # [18:05] <ShaneM> and awesome, since i volunteered to scribe. I want full credit!
  113. # [18:06] <darobin> we could use the time to talk about URL instead
  114. # [18:06] <tantek> scribenick ShaneM
  115. # [18:06] * ShaneM lol
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  118. # [18:15] <tantek> darobin - I haven't caught up on that thread
  119. # [18:15] <tantek> figured I'd give it some time to flameout
  120. # [18:17] <darobin> which thread :) there are quite a few
  121. # [18:17] <darobin> this is sustainable energy
  122. # [18:18] <ShaneM> It feels like the same argument people have been having forever. "Your group is too slow, we will do it on our own." "Well, your new group lacks formalism, so we won't use your work". Happens all the time. I have been through like 5 different standards organizations that all arose for these same reasons.
  123. # [18:18] <darobin> I wish it were that simple in this case :)
  124. # [18:18] <ShaneM> And I used to be you, darobin. The young energetic guy who wants to fix everything. Now I'm the old guy. When did that happen?
  125. # [18:21] <darobin> I'm the young energetic guy who wants to fix everything?
  126. # [18:21] <darobin> man, I thought I was over that phase ten years ago
  127. # [18:21] <tantek> ShaneM - it's expected that different standards orgs have different cultures and values
  128. # [18:21] <ShaneM> nope darobin, sorry. you are not yet completely jaded.
  129. # [18:21] <ShaneM> are you coming to TPAC?
  130. # [18:22] <darobin> ShaneM: trust me, by the end of the URL discussion I will be
  131. # [18:22] <darobin> yup!
  132. # [18:22] <ShaneM> tantek: I agree. Of course I agree. It is just what I hear when I see arguments like this. Hell, we had this argument between ANSI and ISO in.... 1985? Can't remember. Ages ago.
  133. # [18:22] <tantek> the question is can we find an interface (normative reference policy perhaps) that impedance matches sufficiently for different standards orgs (even just 2 of them) to refer to each others documents (even in just one direction) rather than copy/diverge documents.
  134. # [18:23] <tantek> the latter making it more work for everyone, and more confusion too
  135. # [18:23] <ShaneM> tantek: in a sane world we can. some of it is (artificially constrained) timing in this case.
  136. # [18:23] <tantek> scheduling presents an additional constraint and thus difficulty / challenge
  137. # [18:25] <tantek> in the case of URL, (some at) the W3C's demand for more "formalism" (whether "stability", and/or "test suites", and/or "provable interop") is finally causing some amount of "emperor's new clothes" revelation about the IETF's past work.
  138. # [18:25] <ShaneM> long term I am confident that there will be a way to point from one group's specs to another. The laywers just want stability. And yes, the IETF's past work on this is lacking. I have never thought any RFC was well done.
  139. # [18:26] <tantek> past? I meant present as well. as there's still no requirement for RFCs to have *open* / free test suites, and implementation reports as well.
  140. # [18:26] <ShaneM> fact.
  141. # [18:27] <ShaneM> the IETF never made the leap from "3 guys and a dog" to "real standards organization" despite their being de facto charged with standardizing the internt
  142. # [18:27] <tantek> and while I think it's reasonable to have such requirements, even in normatively referenced external documents, we may want to invoke some degree of grandfathering / loosening of those requirements for URL
  143. # [18:27] <tantek> the question in my mind is, is the new URL standard at least as good as the latest IETF URL/URI/IRI RFC
  144. # [18:28] <tantek> (I can never keep track which name is in fashion)
  145. # [18:28] <ShaneM> it definitely is not. sad.
  146. # [18:28] <tantek> (at the IETF at least)
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  148. # [18:28] <ShaneM> it is very browser-centric.
  149. # [18:28] <tantek> from a (perhaps browser-centric) implementation interop perspective, I think the URL standard is greatly improved
  150. # [18:28] <tantek> and perhaps that's sufficient for HTML5
  151. # [18:29] <ShaneM> maybe. I doubt the AC or the Director will think so though. They are sort of old school. And the AC is made up of a lot of people who are not necessarily topic experts on the things they are voting upon.
  152. # [18:29] <tantek> I don't want to assume the AC or Director or anyone else acting in good faith at W3C is "old school"
  153. # [18:30] <tantek> and I'm saying that as a member of the AB
  154. # [18:30] <tantek> so I feel like I have some exposure to that sort of thing
  155. # [18:31] <tantek> I want to assume that the AC and the Director *want* a reasonably solid HTML5 by the end of the year. Obviously that implies several parameters that can be tweaked. But that's up to this WG to propose the tweaking if that's to occur.
  156. # [18:31] <ShaneM> maybe. to some extent it is out of this working group's hands (by process)
  157. # [18:31] <ShaneM> the URL spec is being done by a different group. And the spec is past CR.
  158. # [18:32] <tantek> some of it is (by process), however all of those parties (AB, AC, Director) very much listen to what this WG expresses, whether in or out of process.
  159. # [18:32] <ShaneM> as well they should.
  160. # [18:33] <tantek> I believe plh pointed out during last week's call that the W3C's WebApp URL spec lacked sufficient interop per test suite to be "past CR".
  161. # [18:33] <tantek> hence IMO that effort (having W3C do a copy of the URL standard) was likely a mistake (too strict per our processes)
  162. # [18:34] <tantek> whereas asking the question, is the URL standard (snapshot or not) better than the latest IETF RFC on the same, for the purposes of HTML5?
  163. # [18:34] <tantek> and to that, I think we can say yes
  164. # [18:35] <ShaneM> yes. I meant HTML5 is past CR. and maybe it is better. If it had a different name or didn't purport to supplant the relevant RFC I would find it less objectionable.
  165. # [18:35] <tantek> It's an ideal outcome. But it is one way to meet that aforementioned timing/schedule.
  166. # [18:35] <ShaneM> yes, it would help meet the schedule.
  167. # [18:35] <tantek> Ah, those are specific objections that I think are worth documenting and addressing.
  168. # [18:36] <ShaneM> maybe. I was trying to stay out of it. I feel like every time I get involve in something I irritate more people.
  169. # [18:36] <ShaneM> so I try to save my bullets.
  170. # [18:37] <tantek> you're likely expressing what others (who are staying silent) are feeling, and thus it makes sense to document *your* objections from that perspective.
  171. # [18:37] <tantek> what I do object to is weasel-worded objections, that is "some may object due to ..."
  172. # [18:37] <ShaneM> oh. yeah. that's not helpful. "unnamed sources at the white house..."
  173. # [18:37] <ShaneM> I will consider it. thanks. anyway, we are not going solve it here now. I am going to shower and get ready for my next meetings since I am forced to leavve the house for them.
  174. # [18:38] <tantek> this is one of my favorite documentation pieces for that reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
  175. # [18:38] <tantek> ok good to know. I think by iterating we are developing more common understanding so that's a step forward if not a solution. thanks.
  176. # [18:39] <tantek> darobin, did you have anything to add before we close this informal meeting? ;)
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  178. # [18:41] <tantek> hearing silence for 1+ minute I hereby close this informal meeting about URL in the context of #html-wg. talk to you all later!
  179. # [18:45] <darobin> hehe
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  210. # Session Close: Fri Oct 03 00:00:00 2014

The end :)