/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2014-10-31 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Oct 31 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:00] <timeless> tzivia: BBB
# [00:00] * Joins: Kenny (hbwhzk@public.cloak)
# [00:00] <timeless> dcramer: David Cramer, CCC
# [00:00] <timeless> paulc: two topics PFWG wanted to talk about, overlapped w/ DpubIG and CSS
# [00:00] <dauwhe> s/tzivia/tzviya/
# [00:00] <timeless> ... support for notes/footnotes
# [00:00] * Joins: MichaelC_ (cooper@public.cloak)
# [00:00] <timeless> ... roles/validation
# [00:01] <timeless> ... and since Canvas TF is a11y related
# [00:01] <timeless> ... i'm going to overrule my original decision
# [00:01] <timeless> ... we'll do Canvas last
# [00:01] * MichaelC_ is now known as MichaelC
# [00:01] * MichaelC rrsagent, make minutes
# [00:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html MichaelC
# [00:01] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:01] <timeless> s/BBB/Tzviya Siegman/
# [00:01] <timeless> janina: PF is mushrooming
# [00:02] * Joins: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak)
# [00:02] <timeless> ... we're thrilled to be working w/ DpubIG on enhancing access to books
# [00:02] <timeless> ... making that accessible
# [00:02] <timeless> ... desire of DpubIG is to leverage HTML5 to do this
# [00:02] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [00:02] <timeless> ... it doesn't quite meet their requirements
# [00:02] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:02] <timeless> ... a lot of our discussion just concluded was on what doesn't meet this
# [00:02] <timeless> ... wanted to share our approach w/ HTML WG
# [00:02] <timeless> ... 1. semantic markup
# [00:02] <timeless> ... need to know what's what when you publish a book
# [00:03] <timeless> ... what's a chapter, subsection
# [00:03] <timeless> ... might function like a chapter
# [00:03] * Joins: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak)
# [00:03] <timeless> ... but it might be another word
# [00:03] * Quits: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:03] <timeless> ... Dante's Inferno uses Canto's -- like chapters
# [00:03] <timeless> ... PF as gatekeeper
# [00:03] <timeless> ... community extensible vocabulary, PF manages to avoid collisions of definitions
# [00:03] <timeless> ... roles will help identify what's what
# [00:03] <timeless> ... and help assistive technology present it appropriately
# [00:03] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [00:04] <timeless> s/AAA/Dpub Roles/
# [00:04] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:04] <timeless> ... ARIA needs to change slightly, but not much
# [00:04] <timeless> ... footnotes we do need better support from HTML
# [00:04] * Joins: bobtung (~bobbytung@public.cloak)
# [00:04] <timeless> ... footnotes is best as an example of what's missing
# [00:04] <timeless> ... not the only thing that's missing
# [00:04] <timeless> ... #frag isn't enough
# [00:04] <timeless> ... want to know where it starts, and where it ends
# [00:05] <timeless> ... <p>...</p> don't have for footnotes
# [00:05] <dauwhe_> q+ for Tzviya
# [00:05] * Zakim sees dauwhe_ on the speaker queue
# [00:05] <timeless> ... what kinds these structures
# [00:05] <timeless> ... don't treat it as the full object
# [00:05] <timeless> ... hard to know where to end
# [00:05] <timeless> ... additional problems
# [00:05] <timeless> ... you came from somewhere, something referenced it
# [00:05] <timeless> ... you need to go back to where you came from
# [00:05] <timeless> ... but you could come from many places
# [00:05] <timeless> ... you want to go back to the right place
# [00:06] <timeless> ... i'd be remiss if i didn't touch on
# [00:06] <timeless> ... we had a Director's decision about a Formal Objection on longdesc=
# [00:06] <timeless> ... Dpub needs that, but it isn't enough
# [00:06] <timeless> ... different kinds of media
# [00:06] <timeless> ... braille + graphic + texted description as targets
# [00:06] <timeless> ... may be need for different description for image for different audiences
# [00:07] <timeless> ... want to work with them
# [00:07] <timeless> ... everyone who hates longdesc=, or those who like it
# [00:07] <timeless> ... help us build a better mousetrap
# [00:07] <timeless> ... for kids in schools, and professionals
# [00:07] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
# [00:07] <timeless> ... to be fairly tested on their knowledge, not lack of sensory ability
# [00:07] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:07] <timeless> ... what did i miss Tzviya?
# [00:07] * Joins: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [00:07] <timeless> Tzviya: vocabulary for role, would cover how long
# [00:07] <timeless> ... if i link to footnote
# [00:07] <timeless> ... we don't have a method to get back to the content
# [00:08] <dauwhe_> ack dauwhe_
# [00:08] <Zakim> dauwhe_, you wanted to discuss Tzviya
# [00:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:08] <timeless> ... it's really crappy to navigate through an eBook right now
# [00:08] <timeless> ... we see sexy manipulation, footnote pops up
# [00:08] <rubys1> zakim, q?
# [00:08] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
# [00:08] <timeless> ... but for sighted readers,
# [00:08] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
# [00:08] <timeless> ... if i turn the page, it might not be there
# [00:08] <timeless> ... if i want to cite it, it's not there
# [00:08] <timeless> ... if i want to print it
# [00:08] <timeless> .. it's not there
# [00:08] <timeless> s/../.../
# [00:08] <timeless> Tzviya: we need some method for maintaining these
# [00:08] <timeless> ... linking them
# [00:08] <timeless> ... maintaining a functional body
# [00:09] <timeless> ... one group exploring this is Annotations WG
# [00:09] <timeless> ... maybe
# [00:09] * Joins: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak)
# [00:09] <timeless> janina: how to build a better footnote
# [00:09] <timeless> ... how to treat that object in a publication
# [00:09] <timeless> ... we'll identify the structures that need it
# [00:09] <timeless> paulc: you want the equivalent of the back button?
# [00:10] <timeless> jfolio: increasingly complex if you have 3 refs to the same footnote in the document
# [00:10] <timeless> ... on the second instance, you jump down and read the footnote
# [00:10] <timeless> ... the requirement is to go back to the same resource that sent you
# [00:10] <timeless> ... there's memory capture
# [00:10] <timeless> paulc: that's what the back reference does
# [00:11] <timeless> ... 3 refs to IBM quarterly results
# [00:11] <timeless> ... i can click on one of them, go to the content, and click back
# [00:11] * Quits: bobtung (~bobbytung@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:11] <timeless> darobin_: if i click back twice accidentally, i've lost my place
# [00:11] <timeless> ... and yay footnotes
# [00:12] <timeless> paulc: are people hypothesizing a <footnote> ?
# [00:12] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
# [00:12] <timeless> [ No ]
# [00:12] <timeless> rniwa: i think the back button not working seems like an Implementation issue
# [00:12] <timeless> ... more than a spec bug
# [00:12] <timeless> ... is back() spec'd ?
# [00:13] <timeless> zcorpan: the behavior of the Back button depends on the
# [00:13] <timeless> ... navigation part of the spec
# [00:13] <timeless> ... which is a mess
# [00:13] <timeless> darobin_: in ebook navigation context, you might not be exactly in the same context as in the browser
# [00:13] <timeless> ... if you go from a footnote, and hit back twice, you might exit the book
# [00:13] <mhakkinen> +q
# [00:13] * Zakim sees mhakkinen on the speaker queue
# [00:13] <MikeSmith> q?
# [00:13] * Zakim sees mhakkinen on the speaker queue
# [00:14] <timeless> Josh_Soref: that case, it will probably be better, since the book should remember the last place you were in
# [00:14] <timeless> s/+q/q+/
# [00:14] <rniwa> q+
# [00:14] * Zakim sees mhakkinen, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [00:14] <timeless> darobin_: you might want to know where the footnote came from for something
# [00:14] <timeless> ack mhakkinen
# [00:14] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [00:14] <timeless> mhakkinen: i've been working on print style footnotes in html+css
# [00:14] <timeless> ... people will code footnote at point of reference
# [00:14] <timeless> ... renderings involve moving that content to somewhere else in the document
# [00:14] <timeless> ... bottom of page, floated to margin as a marginal note
# [00:15] <timeless> ... sometimes we want to put something where it was
# [00:15] <timeless> ... larger problem
# [00:15] <timeless> ... if you float it, you might want a marker at point of origin
# [00:15] <timeless> s/mhakkinen/skramer/
# [00:15] <timeless> ... might be able to use to create this
# [00:15] <timeless> Tzivya: we have that need in many places
# [00:16] <timeless> paulc: we've spent 4 hours today telling people who come to us to do it on their own
# [00:16] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [00:16] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
# [00:16] <timeless> mhakkinen: Mark Hakkinen, Educational Testing Service (ETS)
# [00:16] <timeless> ... footnote
# [00:16] <timeless> ... we have test items, delivered in HTML
# [00:16] <timeless> ... reading task items
# [00:16] <timeless> ... going back and forth
# [00:16] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [00:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [00:16] <timeless> ... "in the following sentence"
# [00:16] <timeless> ... you want to go back / forth in the sentence
# [00:17] <timeless> ... we don't want to hard code
# [00:17] <timeless> ... really hard code
# [00:17] <timeless> q?
# [00:17] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [00:17] <MikeSmith> s/skramer/dauwhe_/
# [00:17] <timeless> ... hard to code for assistive technologies
# [00:17] <timeless> ack rniwa
# [00:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:17] <timeless> rniwa: ebook reader
# [00:17] <MikeSmith> dauwhe_ is Dave Cramer
# [00:17] <timeless> ... if they have a special UI to get out of a book, that's outside the realm of html wg
# [00:17] <timeless> ... i have a hard time of reconciling that
# [00:17] * Joins: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
# [00:17] <timeless> ... if the UC is inside the page
# [00:18] <timeless> ... if it's involving iBook content
# [00:18] <timeless> ... not really a web app per say
# [00:18] <timeless> s/say/se/
# [00:18] <timeless> darobin_: we need UCs
# [00:18] <timeless> ... to be pretty clear
# [00:18] <timeless> ... paulc said you'd be on your own
# [00:18] <timeless> ... obviously we'd be helping
# [00:18] <timeless> ... value: bring UCs
# [00:18] <timeless> ... explaining what the problem is
# [00:18] * Joins: AndChat708441 (~AndChat708441@public.cloak)
# [00:18] <timeless> ... what can't be solved w/ existing technologies
# [00:18] <timeless> ... with code examples
# [00:19] <timeless> ... we might come back w/ you could use this
# [00:19] <timeless> rniwa: we also need to figure out which part of those problems that can be solved w/in HTML WG
# [00:19] * Joins: shoko_ (~shoko@public.cloak)
# [00:19] <timeless> ... maybe some in other WGs, maybe government regulations
# [00:19] * Joins: jamesx (~jamesx@public.cloak)
# [00:19] * Joins: renmin_ (~renmin@public.cloak)
# [00:19] <timeless> darobin_: it might always be HTML, some may be CSS,
# [00:19] <timeless> Tzivya: we came here to talk about ARIA
# [00:19] * Joins: song_ (~song@public.cloak)
# [00:19] <timeless> ... the only ask of HTML is Validation of Role
# [00:20] <timeless> ... work is to provide information to PF
# [00:20] <timeless> ... i have time
# [00:20] <timeless> janina: as long as you're ok w/ using rel= as a model
# [00:20] * Joins: hiroto_ (~hiroto@public.cloak)
# [00:20] <timeless> s/rel=/role=/
# [00:20] <timeless> darobin_: if we start adding too many roles
# [00:20] <timeless> ... are there cases where you expect someone to want two roles?
# [00:21] <timeless> Tzivya: no
# [00:21] <timeless> ... that's our task to prevent
# [00:21] <timeless> janina: that's why we want a gatekeeper for role=s
# [00:21] <timeless> s/Dpub Roles/Dpub Roles and footnotes/
# [00:21] <timeless> paulc: you're the 3rd/4th WG that came in here, that i said the same thing
# [00:22] * Quits: wei-james (~wei-james@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:22] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:22] <timeless> topic: Canvas TF
# [00:22] * Quits: shoko (~shoko@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:22] * Quits: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:22] * timeless MarkS ?
# [00:22] <timeless> MarkS: Mark Sodecky
# [00:22] * timeless drop link?
# [00:22] * Joins: Youngsun_Ryu_ (~Youngsun_Ryu@public.cloak)
# [00:22] <timeless> ... majority of recent work was a11y focussed
# [00:23] <timeless> ... a lot of work was Canvas subgroup, of HTML/a11y TF
# [00:23] <timeless> ... now it's Canvas TF under HTML
# [00:23] <MikeSmith> s/Sodecky/Sadecki
# [00:23] * Parts: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (dauwhe_)
# [00:23] <timeless> ... public-canvas-api@
# [00:23] <timeless> ... we have Canvas Level 2 in CR
# [00:23] <timeless> ... currently writing tests
# [00:23] * Quits: Youngsun_Ryu (~Youngsun_Ryu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:23] <timeless> ... identified 24 testable statements -- tests written for all but 3
# [00:23] <timeless> ... we need to use an a11y inspector for some conditions
# [00:23] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:24] <timeless> ... jonny diggs from igalia, contributor webkit gtk thinks we can automate it
# [00:24] * Quits: song (~song@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:24] <timeless> ... there's one where we need to get a bug fixed in webkit
# [00:24] * Quits: mhakkinen (~mhakkinen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:25] <timeless> ... two may prevent us from exiting CR
# [00:25] <timeless> ... 2 changes to the spec, one is purely editorial
# [00:25] * Quits: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:25] <timeless> ... one is an oddity, support in 2 browsers
# [00:25] <timeless> ... records of talking about this feature in our minutes
# [00:25] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:25] <timeless> ... actions to add this to the spec
# [00:25] <timeless> ... we looked into adding it to the spec
# [00:25] <timeless> ... but it isn't in the spec @CR
# [00:25] <timeless> ... we'll have to add that back to the spec
# [00:25] <timeless> ... we recently lost our editor from MS
# [00:26] <timeless> ... all editors are currently not actively editing
# [00:26] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [00:26] <timeless> ... i've talked to Rick Am to pick up editing
# [00:26] * timeless MikeSmith ???^
# [00:26] <timeless> ... question to you, do we have to go back to LC?
# [00:26] <timeless> rubys: if it's substantive
# [00:26] <timeless> MarkS: yes
# [00:26] <timeless> ... then we'll have to go back
# [00:26] <MikeSmith> s/Rick Am/Rik Cabanier
# [00:26] <timeless> plh: you can go to LC, or switch to new Process
# [00:27] <timeless> ... and go to CR
# [00:27] <timeless> paulc: summarize new process
# [00:27] <timeless> plh: a lot easier to go to REC w/ new process
# [00:27] <cabanier> I thought we can stay in CR
# [00:27] * timeless not on Process 2005
# [00:27] <timeless> ... the new Process would let you update in CR, still need Director approval
# [00:28] <timeless> paulc: doesn't the 90 day IP LC period still apply?
# [00:28] <timeless> plh: maybe
# [00:28] <timeless> paulc: new Process, if you're in CR, you can cycle in CR
# [00:28] <timeless> ... old Process, you were in CR, leave CR back to LC, then back to CR
# [00:28] <timeless> ... sometimes people would skip CR
# [00:28] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [00:28] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
# [00:28] <timeless> ... nowhere on the Agenda was whether we should switch to the new Process
# [00:29] <timeless> plh: the Process applies on a per spec basis
# [00:29] <timeless> ... do whatever is simplest
# [00:29] <timeless> hober: at the last CSS F2F (Sofia), we agreed to move to the new Process at spec time
# [00:29] <timeless> s/spec/publication/
# [00:29] * Joins: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [00:29] <timeless> paulc: their interpretation was one decision
# [00:29] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [00:30] <timeless> ... as soon as they republish a document, it's published under the new Process
# [00:30] <timeless> ... reality, we have a C&P/Delete error, it impacts implementations, and needs to be fixed
# [00:30] <timeless> ... when will it be fixed?
# [00:30] <timeless> MarkS: next week
# [00:30] <timeless> ... and we have support in implementations
# [00:30] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
# [00:30] <timeless> janina: test results, just not spec language
# [00:31] * timeless MikeSmith can you fix CCC earlier?
# [00:31] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [00:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [00:31] * Joins: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak)
# [00:31] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/public-permissive-exit-criteria.html
# [00:31] <timeless> paulc: model criteria for HTML WG
# [00:32] <timeless> ... apply to all our documents
# [00:32] <timeless> Implementation
# [00:32] <timeless> A user agent which:
# [00:32] <timeless> (1) implements the "Web browsers and other interactive user agents" conformance class of the specification.
# [00:32] <timeless> (2) is available to the general public. The implementation may be a shipping product or other publicly available version (i.e., beta version, preview release, or “nightly build”). Non-shipping product releases must have implemented the feature(s) for a period of at least one month in order to demonstrate stability, or be endorsed by their responsible
# [00:32] <timeless> organization as sufficiently stable.
# [00:32] <timeless> (3) is not experimental (i.e., a version specifically designed to pass the test suite and is not intended for normal usage going forward).
# [00:32] <timeless> (4) is suitable for a person to use as his/her primary means of accessing the Web.
# [00:33] <timeless> paulc: do your implementations pass this bar?
# [00:33] <timeless> MarkS: i believe so
# [00:33] <timeless> ... hit region, drawfocus,
# [00:33] <timeless> s/drawfocus/drawfocus:ifneeded/
# [00:33] <timeless> ... Firefox Nightly, Chrome Canary, WebKit
# [00:33] <timeless> paulc: i wanted to make sure i ran this by you
# [00:33] * Quits: AndChat708441 (~AndChat708441@public.cloak) ("Bye")
# [00:34] <timeless> ... other questions of Canvas TF?
# [00:34] <timeless> [ Silence ]
# [00:34] * Joins: jcraig_ (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [00:34] * Joins: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak)
# [00:34] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:34] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:34] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
# [00:35] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [00:35] <timeless> Topic: Process 2014
# [00:35] * timeless http://www.w3.org/2014/Process-20140801/
# [00:35] <MarkS> s/Sadocky/Sadecki/G
# [00:36] * Joins: wilhelm (~wilhelm@public.cloak)
# [00:36] <MarkS> s/jonny diggs/joanie diggs/G
# [00:36] <MarkS> s/bug fixed in webkit/bug fixed in chrome
# [00:36] <MarkS> s/Rick Am/Rik Cabanier
# [00:37] <timeless> plh: the motivation for the new process
# [00:37] <timeless> ... was to resolve the case
# [00:37] <timeless> ... you're making a change to a CR
# [00:37] <timeless> ... you have to go all--the-way back to LC
# [00:37] <timeless> ... wait a while
# [00:37] <timeless> ... and then to CR
# [00:37] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:37] <timeless> ... we did that for HTML5 this year, despite the fact that we were in CR
# [00:37] <rubys> q+
# [00:37] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [00:37] <timeless> ... the AB decided to make it more agile
# [00:38] <timeless> ... we allow the group to update their CR
# [00:38] <timeless> ... just require Director approval
# [00:38] <timeless> ... additionally, the new process recognized that LC wasn't the best vehicle to do large review of documents
# [00:38] <timeless> ... wanted to give WG a more flexible way to do Wide-Review
# [00:38] <timeless> ... you have a WD
# [00:38] <timeless> ... you iterate
# [00:38] <timeless> ... then you go to CR
# [00:38] <timeless> ... then iterate
# [00:38] <timeless> ... once you're done, you go to PR
# [00:39] * Quits: marcjohlic (~AndChat531456@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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# [00:39] <timeless> ... don't be fooled -- thinking that you don't need review
# [00:39] <timeless> ... process says you need to demonstrate wide-review before CR
# [00:39] <timeless> ... there was a discussion yesterday
# [00:39] <timeless> ... and there's a wikipage
# [00:39] <timeless> ... if you make a substantive change in CR
# [00:39] * Quits: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:39] <timeless> ... the Director will ask if you have wide-review for the change
# [00:39] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:39] * jcraig_ is now known as jcraig
# [00:39] * Joins: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak)
# [00:39] <MikeSmith> s/CCC/Hachette Livre
# [00:40] <timeless> ... wide-review will depend on the change
# [00:40] <timeless> ... if it was a change of a function name,
# [00:40] <adrianba> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas#What_is_Wide_Review_and_How_do_we_achieve_it TPAC break-out on wide review
# [00:40] <timeless> ... it will be if you got review from implementers
# [00:40] <timeless> ... from Patent Policy
# [00:40] <timeless> ... it changes LC to CR
# [00:40] * Parts: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [00:40] <timeless> ... what does it mean if we make a change in CR and publish
# [00:40] * Quits: xhuang (~emu@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [00:40] <timeless> ... the answer is you trigger a 60 day period for IP
# [00:40] * Joins: stone (~emu@public.cloak)
# [00:40] <timeless> ... if you go to Director asking to go to PR
# [00:41] <timeless> ... he'll want to wait for it to close
# [00:41] <timeless> ... when do you change Process
# [00:41] <timeless> ... it can be per-spec
# [00:41] <timeless> ... but CSS decided, for each publication, when they publish, they'll switch
# [00:41] <timeless> ... that's it
# [00:41] <timeless> ack rubys
# [00:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:41] <timeless> rubys: i interpreted it as an explicit endorsement
# [00:41] <timeless> hober: that's correct
# [00:42] <timeless> rubys: and i heard it as not saying there's a step back
# [00:42] * Quits: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [00:42] <timeless> paulc: the most common way of answering a Q in TR ->CR/ ->PR
# [00:42] <timeless> ... is to ask "did you get wide-review"
# [00:42] <timeless> ... is to answer with the link for bugzilla for LC
# [00:42] <timeless> ... that's what we did for HTML5
# [00:42] <timeless> ... that's what we did for Pre-LC and LC
# [00:42] <timeless> ... what plh is saying you still have to be able to demonstrate wide-review
# [00:43] <timeless> rubys: we still put in the bugzilla link
# [00:43] <timeless> paulc: the bugzilla link is to all bugs since you started the document
# [00:43] <timeless> ... i've not heard any mention of LC
# [00:43] <timeless> ... was LC wasn't required, many people were doing testing/review while they did spec work
# [00:43] <timeless> ... why should they do WD/testing,
# [00:43] * Quits: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak) ("Bye")
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# [00:43] * Quits: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak) ("Bye")
# [00:43] <timeless> ... then you go to a public CR for implementations
# [00:43] * Joins: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak)
# [00:43] * Quits: Ryladog (~Ryladog@public.cloak) ("Bye")
# [00:44] <timeless> ... going to CR is an onus on Chairs to prove to the Directors that you have more implementations
# [00:44] <timeless> rubys: i've heard no downsides
# [00:44] <timeless> paulc: when i Chaired XML-Query WG
# [00:44] * Parts: bcampbell (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [00:44] <timeless> ... a family of specs rivaling size of HTML5
# [00:44] <timeless> ... i couldn't reach LC
# [00:44] <timeless> ... because people wouldn't review the document as a WD
# [00:45] <timeless> ... until it got into LC
# [00:45] <timeless> ... so i had to do multiple LCs
# [00:45] <timeless> ... XQuery had 4 LCs
# [00:45] <timeless> ... the last had 120 comments
# [00:45] <timeless> ... the only w/ more was the Patent Policy itself
# [00:45] <timeless> ... having a stage saying it's functionally complete
# [00:45] <timeless> ... we want your comments on it before we do a call for implementation
# [00:45] <timeless> rubys: does the new process get rid of LC
# [00:45] <timeless> plh: you could "say it's a LC"
# [00:46] <timeless> ... but you can't call it W3 LC
# [00:46] * hober back in the LC / back in the LC / back in the LCCR!
# [00:46] <timeless> rubys: it gets rid of the step
# [00:46] <timeless> paulc: you move "LC" out of the Title, into the document
# [00:46] <timeless> ... you can always express your intent
# [00:46] <timeless> ... whether people understand that is open for judgement
# [00:46] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
# [00:47] <timeless> fantasia: Elika J. Etemad
# [00:47] <timeless> ... XYZ, different sets of features
# [00:47] <timeless> ... we're done w/ algorithm
# [00:47] <timeless> ... we're done w/ the api
# [00:47] <timeless> s|... we're done w/ the api||
# [00:47] <timeless> s|... we're done w/ algorithm||
# [00:47] <timeless> s|... we're done w/ the api||
# [00:47] <timeless> s|... we're done w/ the api||
# [00:47] <timeless> s/|||//
# [00:47] <timeless> ... we're done w/ the api
# [00:47] <timeless> ... we're done w/ algorithm
# [00:47] <timeless> ... i'm hoping we're doing better w/ the spec templates
# [00:48] <timeless> ... so we can communicate
# [00:48] <timeless> ... mostly in the head
# [00:48] <timeless> ... to help you communicate what you're looking for in your reviews
# [00:48] <timeless> ... not just LC, but developing your WD
# [00:48] <timeless> rubys: i understand what paulc was saying
# [00:48] <Zakim> +??P6
# [00:48] <timeless> ... i'll suggest that's a different problem than Canvas
# [00:48] * Joins: Hitoshi_ (~Hitoshi@public.cloak)
# [00:48] <timeless> ... sounds like it's worth evaluating for Canvas
# [00:48] <timeless> paulc: hypothetical
# [00:49] <timeless> ... i think i've convinced myself i'm neutral on this
# [00:49] <timeless> ... say we develop 10-15 modules
# [00:49] <timeless> ... and decide we need to publish a consolidated document
# [00:49] <timeless> ... would we want to give the community a chance to see that as a LC rather than as CR
# [00:49] <timeless> ... or do we feel confident today that we can choose how to handle the fact
# [00:49] <timeless> ... CSS can make a blanket decision that they'll say small
# [00:49] <timeless> hober: small is not an attitude i've heard of CSS
# [00:50] * Quits: renmin_ (~renmin@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [00:50] <timeless> paulc: you'll never do a union of CSS level 4 specs
# [00:50] <timeless> ... i'd opt to do it on a per spec basis
# [00:50] <timeless> ... it doesn't hurt us on a per spec basis
# [00:50] <timeless> ... as soon as we've made the decision a couple of times
# [00:50] <timeless> ... and have some experience
# [00:50] <timeless> ... the WG will tell us
# [00:50] <timeless> plh: you have 2 years
# [00:50] <timeless> ... after 2 years, you'll be forced to the new Process
# [00:51] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
# [00:51] <timeless> Josh_Soref: which new Process
# [00:51] <timeless> plh: 2014
# [00:51] <timeless> paulc: when we recharter, or a specific date?
# [00:51] * glazou ahem
# [00:51] <timeless> plh: i believe it's 2 years after approval of Process-2014
# [00:52] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
# [00:52] <timeless> paulc: if they've given us two years, let's try it for Canvas
# [00:52] <timeless> ... put a CfC in front of WG for Canvas, and see what happens
# [00:52] * timeless glazou ?
# [00:52] * glazou re. the small css mentions above
# [00:53] * timeless glazou : hober took offense too
# [00:53] <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [00:53] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, ??P6
# [00:53] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, MikeSmith, darobin, timeless
# [00:53] <timeless> s/fantasia/fantasai/
# [00:53] <jcraig> ??P6, (SIP caller?) please identify yourself
# [00:54] * Quits: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [00:54] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
# [00:54] <timeless> fantasai: we're also asking for feedback on the new spec template for all WGs
# [00:54] <timeless> paulc: fantasai please send a request to public-html-admin@
# [00:54] <jgraham> s/fantasia/fantasai
# [00:54] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [00:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [00:54] * timeless jgraham: that may fail
# [00:54] * timeless hopes
# [00:55] <jgraham> s/the spec templates/the spec tamplates, particularly reducing boilerplate in status section
# [00:55] <timeless> s| s/fantasia/fantasai||
# [00:55] <timeless> s|s/fantasia/fantasai||
# [00:55] <timeless> s/s|||/
# [00:55] * jcraig rniwa, you are being summoned to #html-wg
# [00:55] <timeless> s|s/fantasia/fantasai||
# [00:55] <jgraham> s/not just LC, but developing your WD/want WGs to experiment with WD process that works for you, not just one-size-fits-all LC process/
# [00:55] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
# [00:55] <Santabarbara> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2014Oct/0115.html
# [00:55] <timeless> topic: allow <link> in body + DOM position as a rendering hint
# [00:56] <jgraham> s/we can communicate/we can communicate better the status of the document, expected timelines, and what kinds of reviews are solicited
# [00:56] <timeless> paulc: there's been active discussion in the last 24 hours on the topic
# [00:56] * xiaoqian current discussion in public-web-perf/whatwg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2014Oct/thread.html#msg115
# [00:56] <timeless> ... i need someone to introduce the topic
# [00:56] * Joins: chunming (chu@public.cloak)
# [00:57] <timeless> ... Context: Baidu made a member submission
# [00:57] <rniwa> q+
# [00:57] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [00:57] * timeless -> link ??
# [00:57] <timeless> ... at WebPerf WG meeting Mon/Tue
# [00:57] <timeless> ... feedback to them was let's understand your UC, and talk to HTML WG
# [00:57] <timeless> ack rniwa
# [00:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [00:57] <myakura> http://www.w3.org/Submission/first-screen-paint/
# [00:57] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/Submission/first-screen-paint/
# [00:57] <MarkS> s/jonny diggs/joanie diggs
# [00:57] <timeless> rniwa: i was an observer in that WG
# [00:57] <jgraham> i/XYZ/Purpose of removing LC is to allow WG to break down review requests in more appropriate ways and help to solicit reviews earlier in the process (by not having LC be a fixed point in process where everyone comments)
# [00:57] <timeless> rniwa: in most major browsers
# [00:57] <timeless> ... we have this behavior where
# [00:58] <timeless> ... if you have any pending stylesheets
# [00:58] <timeless> ... we'll block painting of the page
# [00:58] <timeless> ... until a timer fires, or all stylesheets load
# [00:58] * Joins: forty41 (~forty4@public.cloak)
# [00:58] <timeless> ... problem w/ their website, is they want to draw critical part of websites ASAP
# [00:58] <timeless> ... say page is 200k
# [00:58] * Joins: rkawada (~rkawada@public.cloak)
# [00:58] <timeless> ... loads 4 50k stylesheets
# [00:58] <timeless> ... some aren't critical content
# [00:58] <timeless> ... say parts visible in phone
# [00:58] <timeless> ... we still block until those stylesheets are loaded
# [00:58] <timeless> ... we don't know if they have rules that apply to the top of the page
# [00:59] <timeless> Travis: unstyled, or semi-styled content
# [00:59] <timeless> rniwa: Amazon, you have product description
# [00:59] <timeless> ... then related product
# [00:59] <timeless> s/duct/ducts/
# [00:59] <timeless> ... then comments
# [00:59] <MikeSmith> FOUOSSC!
# [00:59] <timeless> paulc: and if you're going to that page to just see the product price
# [00:59] * Quits: Hitoshi_ (~Hitoshi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:59] <timeless> ... and you're hoping price is near top of page
# [01:00] <timeless> ... I'll be really careful to ensure people use Q and mic
# [01:00] <timeless> [ angel asks if Baidu is on irc ]
# [01:00] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [01:00] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [01:01] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [01:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, ??P6
# [01:01] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, MikeSmith, darobin, timeless
# [01:01] <timeless> Zakim, ??p6 is Baidu
# [01:01] <Zakim> +Baidu; got it
# [01:01] * Quits: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:01] * Quits: forty41 (~forty4@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [01:01] <timeless> rniwa: they want to provide critical parts of the page that's immediately rendered
# [01:01] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
# [01:01] <timeless> ... and have the browser paint those parts
# [01:01] <timeless> ... w/o having to manually load the stylesheets via script
# [01:01] <timeless> ... you can work around this behavior
# [01:01] <timeless> ... but it's a big hassle
# [01:01] <timeless> ... have to do that on every single page
# [01:01] <timeless> q+ travis
# [01:01] * Zakim sees travis on the speaker queue
# [01:02] * timeless AC rep of baidu
# [01:02] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [01:02] * jgraham wonders if this has an analogy to <script async>
# [01:02] <chunming> q?
# [01:02] * Zakim sees travis on the speaker queue
# [01:02] * timeless suspects it does
# [01:03] * rniwa jgraham: yes!
# [01:03] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
# [01:03] * timeless rniwa so, only one person in Baidu, or many on this bridge?
# [01:03] * rniwa jgraham: what we want to add is blocking script though…
# [01:03] <timeless> Zakim, Baidu_AC_rep has entered Baidu
# [01:03] <Zakim> +Baidu_AC_rep; got it
# [01:03] * Joins: Hitoshi (~Hitoshi@public.cloak)
# [01:03] <timeless> ack tr
# [01:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:03] <timeless> Travis: based on rniwa
# [01:03] <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [01:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, Baidu
# [01:03] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, MikeSmith, darobin, timeless
# [01:03] <Zakim> Baidu has Baidu_AC_rep
# [01:04] <timeless> ... this sounds like defer'd styles, like defer'd scripts
# [01:04] * Joins: html (~html@public.cloak)
# [01:04] <timeless> ... rniwa is nodding his head
# [01:04] * zcorpan jgraham it's more like <script src> in body, not <script async> in body, aiui
# [01:04] <timeless> paulc: something that already exists
# [01:04] <timeless> ... or <style defer> as an analog to <script defer>
# [01:04] <timeless> rniwa: it's very similar to <script defer>/<script async>
# [01:04] <MikeSmith> timeless, Baidu_AC_rep is Yue Min
# [01:05] <timeless> ... but we also need the ability to block the painting of parts
# [01:05] <timeless> ... we don't want to paint related products while the stylesheets are still loading
# [01:05] <zcorpan> q+
# [01:05] * Zakim sees zcorpan on the speaker queue
# [01:05] <timeless> ... baidu wants to add a hint that it blocks painting of content after
# [01:06] <timeless> <script>...</script> <node>
# [01:06] <timeless> <node> isn't inserted until after <script> is parsed
# [01:06] <timeless> Travis: still trying to understand
# [01:06] <timeless> ... you have a dependency graph between <stylesheets> and subtrees in the DOM
# [01:06] <timeless> ... and you wan to tell the subtree that it depends on the stylesheet before it paints
# [01:06] <timeless> q?
# [01:06] * Zakim sees zcorpan on the speaker queue
# [01:06] <timeless> zakim, Baidu_AC_rep is Yue_Min
# [01:06] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'Baidu_AC_rep'
# [01:07] <MikeSmith> ack zcorpan
# [01:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:07] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) ("")
# [01:07] <timeless> zcorpan: currently the spec allows the <style> element if it has scope=
# [01:07] <timeless> Travis: in <body>
# [01:07] <timeless> zcorpan: i don't know what the behavior is
# [01:07] <timeless> ... in theory you could put critical content
# [01:07] <MikeSmith> s/scope=/scoped=
# [01:08] <timeless> ... and then have a <div> w/ <style scoped=> @import () </style> </div>
# [01:08] <timeless> ... not necessarily the best
# [01:08] <timeless> darobin: a bit of a hack
# [01:08] <timeless> paulc: zcorpan proposed a solution
# [01:08] <timeless> ... people nodding their heads, moving their shoulders
# [01:08] <timeless> ... yeah maybe
# [01:08] <timeless> ... worth investigating
# [01:08] <timeless> ... zcorpan is nodding
# [01:08] <timeless> zcorpan: another point
# [01:08] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [01:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, Baidu
# [01:09] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, MikeSmith, darobin, timeless
# [01:09] <Zakim> Baidu has Baidu_AC_rep
# [01:09] <timeless> zcorpan: when you have <style> ... </style>
# [01:09] * Quits: MarkVickers__ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) ("(null)")
# [01:09] * Joins: MarkVickers__ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
# [01:09] <timeless> ... it means you have to revaluate the earlier document
# [01:09] <rniwa> q+
# [01:09] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [01:09] <timeless> ... bad for perf, can cause repainting
# [01:09] <zcorpan> q?
# [01:09] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [01:09] <timeless> zakim, Yue_Min has entered Baidu
# [01:09] <Zakim> +Yue_Min; got it
# [01:09] <timeless> zakim, Baidu_AC_rep has left Baidu
# [01:09] <Zakim> -Baidu_AC_rep; got it
# [01:09] <timeless> ack rniwa
# [01:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:10] <timeless> rniwa: I think zcorpan 's proposal would be workable
# [01:10] <timeless> ... if everyone implemented it
# [01:10] <timeless> ... i think that solution is better wrt not reevaluating elements outside of that
# [01:10] <timeless> ... the solution in WebPerf has a drawback
# [01:10] * Joins: igarashi (~iga@public.cloak)
# [01:10] <timeless> ... even if the author meant not to affect elements above <style> elements
# [01:11] <MikeSmith> -> http://caniuse.com/#feat=style-scoped Browser support for style[scoped]
# [01:11] <zcorpan> q?
# [01:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:11] <zcorpan> q+
# [01:11] * Zakim sees zcorpan on the speaker queue
# [01:11] <timeless> ... if we did <style scoped=> we have a problem
# [01:11] <jcraig> http://caniuse.com/#feat=style-scoped
# [01:11] <timeless> ... in that Blink and WebKit removed <style scoped=>
# [01:11] <MikeSmith> yes, Firefox is the only browser that supports style[scoped]
# [01:11] <timeless> rniwa: that's the one drawback
# [01:12] <timeless> ... if we use the <link rel=xxx> it would work for everyone
# [01:12] * timeless doesn't udnerstand
# [01:12] <html> q+
# [01:12] * Zakim sees zcorpan, html on the speaker queue
# [01:12] <timeless> ack zcorpan
# [01:12] * Zakim sees html on the speaker queue
# [01:13] <timeless> zcorpan: it's not a blocking problem if the scoped= attribute isn't implemented yet
# [01:13] <timeless> ... if the behavior is what we want
# [01:13] <timeless> ... then it should work ok w/, w/o scoped=
# [01:13] <timeless> ... even if it gets implemented later
# [01:13] <timeless> ... you said my proposal would be acceptable if scoped= was implemented
# [01:13] <timeless> ... i don't see why it needs to be implemented
# [01:13] <timeless> ... the important part is what the behavior is
# [01:13] <timeless> ... right?
# [01:14] <timeless> paulc: i thought you said you could do this w/ <style scoped=>
# [01:14] <timeless> ... we're hearing that's not widely implemented
# [01:14] <timeless> ... is that not what you said
# [01:14] <timeless> ... please clarify
# [01:14] <timeless> rniwa: i'm a bit confused
# [01:14] <timeless> ... it sounds like your solution does include <style scoped=>
# [01:14] <timeless> zcorpan: the proposed spec change is not changing UA requirements
# [01:14] <timeless> ... it's changing authoring requirements
# [01:15] <timeless> ... this is in theory already possible w/ today's authoring requirements in the spec
# [01:15] <timeless> ... assuming the <style> element has the behavior you want in existing browsers
# [01:15] <timeless> [ rniwa nods ]
# [01:15] * timeless barely gets it
# [01:15] <rniwa> q+
# [01:15] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [01:16] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [01:16] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, Baidu
# [01:16] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, MikeSmith, darobin, timeless
# [01:16] <Zakim> Baidu has Yue_Min
# [01:16] <zcorpan> q?
# [01:16] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [01:16] <timeless> Yue_Min: i'd like to give some background introduction for this proposal
# [01:16] * Quits: MarkVickers__ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:16] <timeless> ... we're the Baidu mobile browser team
# [01:16] <timeless> ... from experience
# [01:16] <timeless> ... by judging the first screen
# [01:16] <timeless> ... displaying th
# [01:16] <xiaoqian> s/Yue_Min/Ping Wu
# [01:16] <timeless> ... if this content can be shown quickly
# [01:17] <timeless> ... then user will think browser is very fast
# [01:17] <timeless> ... and will spend time reading
# [01:17] <timeless> ... and we propose this tag in the <head> tag
# [01:17] <xiaoqian> s/Ping Wu/Ping_Wu
# [01:17] <timeless> ... it's not about layout speed
# [01:17] <timeless> ... it's first content speed
# [01:17] <timeless> ... this UX optimization
# [01:17] <timeless> ... may have some effect to overall loading page speed
# [01:17] <timeless> ... we think it isn't very important to UX
# [01:17] <timeless> ... that's the background to this proposal
# [01:18] <timeless> ... some colleagues from WebPerf introduced this
# [01:18] <timeless> ... critical-section
# [01:18] <timeless> ... we want to emphasize
# [01:18] <timeless> ... it's "above-the-fold" first screen
# [01:18] <timeless> ... in the first edition of this proposal
# [01:18] * rniwa points out that the speaker was talking about http://www.w3.org/Submission/first-screen-paint/
# [01:18] <timeless> ... we wanted to make the develop
# [01:18] <timeless> ... give a link
# [01:18] <timeless> ... a <div> w/ first screen paint
# [01:18] <timeless> ... but it may have some
# [01:19] <timeless> ... due to different devices/orientation
# [01:19] * Joins: taku (~taku@public.cloak)
# [01:19] <timeless> ... this kind of solution may be hard
# [01:19] <timeless> ... also browsers can judge whether their layout size has reached this critical part
# [01:19] <timeless> ... at the same time
# [01:19] <timeless> ... some colleagues have mentioned that
# [01:19] <timeless> ... in the paint phase
# [01:19] <timeless> ... we're waiting for CSS/JS resources
# [01:19] <timeless> ... no matter if these are blocking or not
# [01:19] <timeless> ... we will try to wait until the first paint
# [01:20] <timeless> ... we will try to change the original browser implementation
# [01:20] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [01:20] <timeless> ... pass-layout-pass-layout
# [01:20] <timeless> ... until we detect that we've reached the full screen
# [01:20] <timeless> ... of first paint
# [01:20] <jamesx> should be parse - layout - parse - layout
# [01:20] <timeless> ... before the first paint, we wait for downloading/non-blocking css
# [01:20] <rniwa> q?
# [01:20] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [01:20] <timeless> ... background and implementation and introduction
# [01:20] <timeless> s/pass-/parse-/
# [01:20] <jcraig> s/pass-layout-pass-layout/parse-layout-parse-layout/
# [01:20] <timeless> s/pass-/parse-/
# [01:21] <timeless> s|s/pass-layout-pass-layout/parse-layout-parse-layout/||
# [01:21] * timeless sorry jcraig :)
# [01:21] * jcraig np
# [01:21] <timeless> [ Project First Screen Paint in Advance ]
# [01:21] <timeless> rniwa: first, we wait for stylesheets to load
# [01:21] <timeless> ... also have a timer
# [01:21] <timeless> ... basically a switch to turn this off
# [01:21] <timeless> ... i don't want to repeat the conversation from WebPerf
# [01:21] <timeless> ... so i'll be brief
# [01:21] <timeless> ... we talked to people in Perf group
# [01:22] <timeless> ... if we gave that switch to web developers
# [01:22] <timeless> ... we'll spend a lot of cpu time repainting content
# [01:22] <timeless> paulc: until timer goes out or stylesheets load
# [01:22] <timeless> rniwa: right
# [01:22] <timeless> ... terrible
# [01:22] <timeless> ... this is why WebPerf suggested link element
# [01:22] <timeless> ... and letting browser paint content above it
# [01:22] <timeless> q?
# [01:22] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [01:22] <zcorpan> q?
# [01:22] <MikeSmith> q?
# [01:22] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [01:22] * Zakim sees html, rniwa on the speaker queue
# [01:22] <timeless> q=
# [01:22] * Zakim timeless, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
# [01:23] <timeless> s/q=//
# [01:23] <timeless> q- html
# [01:23] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [01:23] <timeless> q- rniwa
# [01:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:23] <jcraig> ack html
# [01:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:23] <timeless> jcraig: to clarify
# [01:23] <timeless> ... before you (rniwa) were talking about arbitrary subtrees
# [01:23] <timeless> ... but w/ <link> you're talking about a specific point in the source
# [01:23] <timeless> ... but which is the requirement
# [01:23] <timeless> ... independent subtrees
# [01:23] <timeless> ... or just this much source to here?
# [01:24] <timeless> rniwa: i don't know
# [01:24] <timeless> ... in terms of REQs and UCs
# [01:24] <hober> s/jcraig/jgraham/
# [01:24] <timeless> ... people in other browsers said per sub tree is very hard
# [01:24] <timeless> ... binary bit is easier
# [01:24] <timeless> paulc: member submission implies above the fold
# [01:24] <timeless> ... not multiple subtrees
# [01:24] <timeless> rniwa: right
# [01:25] <timeless> jgraham: that's fine, it sounds like it's a different solution to zcorpan 's previous discussion
# [01:25] <MikeSmith> the problem / use-case is what paul described
# [01:25] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
# [01:25] <timeless> ... sounds like it'd be useful to have clear understanding of UCs
# [01:25] <timeless> ... slightly concerned w/ how to know where the fold is
# [01:25] <timeless> Travis: +1 to that
# [01:25] <timeless> ... putting a marker in HTML source code has little/no bearing at all on where that content will be positioned
# [01:25] <timeless> ... UA.css, user.css, page css
# [01:26] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
# [01:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [01:26] <timeless> ... hard to identified the fold
# [01:26] <timeless> ... w/o knowing the UCs
# [01:26] <timeless> ... on/off for painting, maybe it could work
# [01:26] <timeless> ... seems tricky
# [01:26] <timeless> jgraham: seems like it'll work well on specific screen sizes, and like rubbish elsewhere
# [01:26] <timeless> q?
# [01:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [01:26] * Quits: Hitoshi (~Hitoshi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:26] <timeless> rniwa: the reason we came up w/ this solution is MS mentioned Amazon already does this
# [01:26] <zcorpan> q+
# [01:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, zcorpan on the speaker queue
# [01:26] <timeless> ... send first part
# [01:26] <timeless> ... then later fetches the rest of the content
# [01:27] <timeless> ... first paint, fetch, second paint
# [01:27] <plh> q+
# [01:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, zcorpan, plh on the speaker queue
# [01:27] <timeless> paulc: so they've adapted their page construction to the way browsers work
# [01:27] <timeless> ... if browsers change
# [01:27] <timeless> ... they have a this-is-where-the-fold should be
# [01:27] <timeless> jgraham: i think facebook is similar
# [01:27] <timeless> ... i remember reading a blog post
# [01:27] <timeless> ... i imagine they download the initial stuff
# [01:27] <timeless> ... paint that
# [01:28] <timeless> ... download and start inserting the gaps
# [01:28] <timeless> ... could be anywhere
# [01:28] <zcorpan> q?
# [01:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, zcorpan, plh on the speaker queue
# [01:28] <timeless> paulc: angel, ask them if they have other questions
# [01:28] <timeless> ... sounds like feedback was that <meta> wasn't very useful
# [01:28] <timeless> ... maybe using a <link rel=> element
# [01:28] <timeless> ... sounds like we really want a clear understanding of the UC
# [01:29] <timeless> ... to make sure we don't end up solving something that isn't exactly what baidu wants
# [01:29] <timeless> [ nods ]
# [01:29] <timeless> paulc: as cochair
# [01:29] <timeless> ... having more and more dialog about the UCs
# [01:29] <timeless> ... is the best first step here
# [01:29] <timeless> q+ to ask if we couldn't survey Amazon and Facebook (and Gmail/Gmaps) about this
# [01:29] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, zcorpan, plh, timeless on the speaker queue
# [01:29] <timeless> paulc: things should be measured against specific UC
# [01:29] <timeless> ... first reaction was you could end up repainting the page over and over again
# [01:29] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [01:29] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
# [01:29] * Zakim sees zcorpan, plh, timeless on the speaker queue
# [01:30] <timeless> MikeSmith: as far as i understand
# [01:30] <timeless> ... the problem case
# [01:30] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [01:30] <timeless> ... it's simply about the initial page load
# [01:30] <timeless> ... not anything beyond that
# [01:30] <timeless> ... first view-port chunk
# [01:30] <timeless> ... to make that load
# [01:30] <timeless> ... faster
# [01:30] <timeless> ... to have the user experience "page" load faster
# [01:30] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
# [01:30] <timeless> paulc: people measure effectiveness of your mobile browser of how your first viewport is painted, the Business case?
# [01:31] <timeless> MikeSmith: the problem you want to solve
# [01:31] <timeless> ... if people aren't going to your site, browser doesn't show your content, people give up/go away
# [01:31] <timeless> ... point to make here
# [01:31] <timeless> ... effect of this on HTML spec
# [01:31] <html> q+
# [01:31] * Zakim sees zcorpan, plh, timeless, html on the speaker queue
# [01:31] <timeless> ... don't have to define the behavior
# [01:31] <timeless> ... i think it could be done in WebPerf
# [01:31] <timeless> ... for HTML WG, we could
# [01:31] * Joins: renmin_ (~renmin@public.cloak)
# [01:31] <timeless> ... have some discussion about the right markup
# [01:31] <timeless> ... but in the end, probably
# [01:32] <timeless> ... say we go w/ this <link rel=...>
# [01:32] <jgraham> q+
# [01:32] * Zakim sees zcorpan, plh, timeless, html, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [01:32] <timeless> ... <link rel=firstpaint>
# [01:32] <timeless> ... we make a minor change to specification for link element
# [01:32] <timeless> ... say that it could appear anywhere in the document
# [01:32] <timeless> ... right now, we say it has to be in the <head>
# [01:32] <timeless> ... microdata says it can be in the body
# [01:32] <timeless> ... RDFa says it can be in the body
# [01:32] <timeless> Zakim, close the queue
# [01:32] <Zakim> ok, timeless, the speaker queue is closed
# [01:32] <timeless> ... that's all we'd have to do in the HTML spec
# [01:33] <html> q+
# [01:33] * Zakim whispers to html that the speaker queue has been closed
# [01:33] <timeless> zcorpan: rel=firstpaint wouldn't have a good backcompat story
# [01:33] <timeless> ... rel=stylesheet would
# [01:33] <timeless> ... if we think scoped= stylesheets is what we want to restrict authors to doing
# [01:33] <timeless> ... then we could add scoped= to linked
# [01:33] <timeless> q?
# [01:33] * Zakim sees zcorpan, plh, timeless, html, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [01:33] <timeless> ack zcorpan
# [01:33] * Zakim sees plh, timeless, html, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [01:33] <timeless> ack plh
# [01:33] * Zakim sees timeless, html, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [01:33] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:34] <timeless> plh: the UC is all about above-the-fold
# [01:34] <hober> <link rel=stylesheet scoped href=...>
# [01:34] <timeless> ... how long it takes for the user to see something
# [01:34] <timeless> ... browsers have techniques to avoid flash
# [01:34] <timeless> ... browsers want to paint as fast, but not flash
# [01:34] <timeless> ... different techniques
# [01:34] <timeless> ... iirc IE if you wait 200ms and cpu doesn't do anything, it starts painting
# [01:34] <timeless> ... another is to put </html>
# [01:34] <timeless> ... when the browser sees that, it starts painting
# [01:34] <timeless> ... and continues parsing
# [01:35] <timeless> ... this is all ugly, can we find something else that allows you to do that
# [01:35] <timeless> ... <link rel=stylesheet> works in some browser already
# [01:35] <timeless> ... not specified, but it works
# [01:35] <timeless> q?
# [01:35] * Zakim sees timeless, html, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [01:35] <timeless> ack me
# [01:35] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask if we couldn't survey Amazon and Facebook (and Gmail/Gmaps) about this
# [01:35] * Zakim sees html, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [01:35] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:35] <timeless> paulc: seems like a good question
# [01:36] <timeless> jgraham: yes
# [01:36] <timeless> ... there's work going on for a script dependency for html
# [01:36] <timeless> ... Hixie 's working on it w/ TC39
# [01:36] <timeless> ... seems related script-loading/style-loading
# [01:36] <timeless> ... perhaps we shouldn't punt off to WebPerf
# [01:36] <darobin> for reference: https://whatwg.github.io/loader/
# [01:36] <timeless> ... it should be like other things in the platform
# [01:36] <timeless> q?
# [01:36] * Zakim sees html, jgraham on the speaker queue
# [01:36] <timeless> ack jgraham
# [01:36] * Zakim sees html on the speaker queue
# [01:36] <timeless> ack html
# [01:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:37] <timeless> MMM: some people have mentioned we have wasted a lot of time
# [01:37] <timeless> ... we've only
# [01:37] <timeless> ... when we reach layout to the full screensize, we ...
# [01:37] <timeless> ... people have mentioned
# [01:37] <timeless> ... to avoid flash
# [01:37] <timeless> ... let's BBB
# [01:37] <timeless> ... crack
# [01:37] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:37] <timeless> ... this way, we may not crack result
# [01:37] <Zefa_> s/WWW/Wu Ping
# [01:38] <timeless> ... during parsing
# [01:38] <jcraig> s/crack/correct/
# [01:38] <timeless> s/MMM/Wu_Ping/
# [01:38] <timeless> ... 400,000
# [01:38] <jcraig> s/crack/correct/
# [01:38] <timeless> ... tokens
# [01:38] <timeless> ... we may still see incorrect results
# [01:38] <timeless> ... we want a way for developers to direct to the browser
# [01:38] <timeless> ... if you have many dynamic resources
# [01:38] <timeless> ... first-screen-content
# [01:38] <timeless> ... you may tell the browser you don't want this optimization
# [01:39] * Quits: song_ (~song@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:39] <timeless> ... also mentioned Facebook may have similar techniques
# [01:39] <timeless> ... i don't know if i remember correctly
# [01:39] <timeless> ... sending first page content first
# [01:39] <timeless> ... this kind of thing could help
# [01:39] <timeless> ... but it requires a reorganization of the page
# [01:39] <timeless> ... in the optimization case, the browser can do it itself
# [01:39] <timeless> ... we also have UCs, like Data and Snapshot of high-speed-camera
# [01:40] <timeless> ... which captures displaying video of firstscreen content
# [01:40] <rniwa> q?
# [01:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:40] <timeless> ... optimization can tell painting time from 2000ms to 1000ms
# [01:40] <timeless> ... most mobile site pages can now be restricted to 1s
# [01:40] <timeless> ... under this kind of optimization
# [01:40] <timeless> Zakim, open the queue
# [01:40] <Zakim> ok, timeless, the speaker queue is open
# [01:40] <timeless> paulc: we had a discussion in WebPerf
# [01:41] <timeless> ... we've exposed the problem to people around the table here
# [01:41] <timeless> ... heard some solutions
# [01:41] <timeless> ... maybe not all discussed in WebPerf/whatwg
# [01:41] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [01:41] <timeless> ... maybe what we require is a super-general solution
# [01:41] <timeless> ... relation of html page to script
# [01:41] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [01:41] <timeless> ... i don't know what to tell Baidu about where the next discussion
# [01:41] <timeless> ... by default, it's going on in WebPerf
# [01:41] <timeless> ... plh, you're the staff contact for WebPerf?
# [01:41] <timeless> plh: yes
# [01:42] <timeless> paulc: i'll put the ball in your court
# [01:42] <timeless> ... we have a UC, maybe it needs to be described in more detail
# [01:42] <timeless> ... maybe discuss isolated, or very powerful solution
# [01:42] <timeless> ... maybe some of us here, could put it on in WebPerf, i think the thread is copied to whatwg
# [01:42] <timeless> ... then that's where the discussion should continue
# [01:42] <timeless> plh: i think there's an action in WebPerf
# [01:43] <timeless> ... maybe we discussed how to move forward
# [01:43] * Quits: AndChat|531456 (~AndChat531456@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [01:43] <timeless> rniwa: paulc's/jgraham's points on UCs
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# [01:43] <timeless> ... their UCs are tied to their solution
# [01:43] <timeless> ... i think we need User Scenarios
# [01:43] <timeless> ... maybe we need UCs from other vendors
# [01:43] <timeless> ... Facebook/Gmail/Amazon/...
# [01:43] <timeless> ... and work forward in Web Perf
# [01:44] * Quits: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [01:44] <timeless> paulc: 5:45pm; we meet again tomorrow morning @ 8:30am
# [01:44] <timeless> ... to meet on EME
# [01:44] <plh> s/maybe we discussed/we'll discuss/
# [01:44] <timeless> ... I predict we'll adjourn at Coffee in the afternoon
# [01:44] <timeless> ... i think that's a pretty strong indication from the agenda
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# [01:44] <timeless> ... thanks everyone
# [01:44] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak) (rniwa)
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# [01:44] <Zakim> -Santabarbara
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# [01:45] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [01:45] <Zakim> -Baidu
# [01:45] <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:30AM has ended
# [01:45] <Zakim> Attendees were rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith, darobin, benjamp, Baidu, Baidu_AC_rep, Yue_Min
# [01:45] <timeless> s/?P6, (SIP caller?) please identify yourself//
# [01:45] <timeless> s/s|||//
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# [01:45] <timeless> s/s|||//
# [01:45] <timeless> s|s///||
# [01:46] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [01:46] <timeless> s|s///||
# [01:46] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [01:47] <timeless> s/s|||//
# [01:47] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [01:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [16:35] <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
# [16:35] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
# [16:35] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [16:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
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# [16:35] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
# [16:35] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()11:30AM already started
# [16:35] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [16:35] <trackbot> Date: 31 October 2014
# [16:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [16:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs world
# [16:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, timeless
# [16:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [16:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, logs span midnight
# [16:35] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'logs span midnight', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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# [16:35] <timeless> RRSAgent, meeting span midnight
# [16:35] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'meeting span midnight', timeless. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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# [16:36] <timeless> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [16:36] <RRSAgent> ok, timeless; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [16:36] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [16:36] <paulc> EME outstanding bugs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0101.html
# [16:36] <timeless> topic: EME Bugs
# [16:36] <timeless> s/topic: EME Bugs//
# [16:36] <timeless> i/EME/topic: EME Bugs/
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# [16:38] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [16:38] <Zakim> On the phone I see BobLund
# [16:38] <timeless> Zakim, call Santabarbara
# [16:38] <Zakim> ok, timeless; the call is being made
# [16:38] <Zakim> +Santabarbara
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# [16:38] <timeless> Zakim, Santabarbara contains paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele
# [16:38] <Zakim> +paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele; got it
# [16:38] <timeless> Zakim, darobin has entered Santabarbara
# [16:38] <Zakim> +darobin; got it
# [16:39] <timeless> paulc: good morning darobin
# [16:39] <timeless> topic: Introductions
# [16:39] <timeless> paulc: i'll carry the mic around the room
# [16:39] <timeless> ... and we'll introduce new faces
# [16:39] <timeless> adrianba: adrian bateman, microsoft
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# [16:39] <timeless> paulc: paul cotton, cochair
# [16:39] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
# [16:40] <timeless> rubys: Sam Ruby, cochair
# [16:40] <ddorwin> present+ David_Dorwin
# [16:40] <timeless> joesteele: Joe Steele, Adobe
# [16:40] <timeless> AAA: aaa
# [16:40] <BillHofmann> present+ Bill Hofmann
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# [16:40] <timeless> s/AAA/jdsmith/
# [16:40] <timeless> MikeSmith: Mike Smith, W3C
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# [16:41] <timeless> [ Scribe did not transcribe the room, sorry ]
# [16:41] <timeless> s/Bill Hofmann/Bill_Hofmann/
# [16:41] <timeless> Topic: Agenda for Friday
# [16:41] <timeless> s/Topic: Agenda for Friday//
# [16:41] <hober> Present+ hober
# [16:41] <timeless> paulc: it'd help if people marked themselves as present
# [16:41] <markw> present+ Mark Watson
# [16:41] <BobLund> Present+
# [16:41] <igarashi> present+ igarashi
# [16:41] * timeless present+ First_Last
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# [16:42] <timeless> s/Mark Watson/Mark_Watson/
# [16:42] <rubys> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda
# [16:42] <timeless> Topic: Agenda for Friday
# [16:42] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
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# [16:42] <k_takabayashi> present+ k_takabayashi
# [16:42] * yosuke present+ yosuke
# [16:42] <edoyle> present+ Erika_Navara
# [16:43] <igarashi> present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi
# [16:43] <timeless> BobLund: this is Bob Lund, from Cable Labs
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# [16:43] <timeless> s/Topic: Agenda for Friday//
# [16:44] <timeless> paulc: please be aggressive in q+'ing
# [16:44] <timeless> Topic: Agenda for Friday
# [16:44] <timeless> s/Topic: Agenda for Friday//
# [16:44] <timeless> i/2014/Topic: Agenda for Friday/
# [16:44] <timeless> paulc: Morning is for Media TF
# [16:44] <timeless> ... this morning, i broke it up into three parts
# [16:44] <timeless> ... i suggest we attack ~25 open bugs
# [16:45] <timeless> ... i had a request from MarkVickers to time-anchor the discussion for bug-26332
# [16:45] <timeless> ... MarkVickers, you said you'd have someone call in for that
# [16:45] <timeless> MarkVickers: correct, he may call in earlier, but i said then to him
# [16:45] <timeless> paulc: Coffee break 10:30-11
# [16:45] <timeless> ... 12:30, acolwell will call in on MSE
# [16:45] <timeless> ... Lunch 1-2:00pm
# [16:45] <timeless> ... then darobin will give us an update on DOM4
# [16:46] <timeless> ... link is for test results
# [16:46] <timeless> ... we had a CfC to get to PR, and got a formal objection
# [16:46] <timeless> ... we're working on interop
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# [16:46] <timeless> ... expected last session is to trawl through the Extension specs 3-3:30
# [16:46] <timeless> ... and yesterday, i predicted we'd break at Coffee
# [16:46] * Joins: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
# [16:46] <timeless> ... a shown of hands yesterday showed one of the principle people is ddorwin at 1pm
# [16:47] <timeless> ... thus Media before 1pm
# [16:47] * plinss rrsagent, pointer?
# [16:47] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T15-46-57
# [16:47] <timeless> s/people/people we are losing/
# [16:47] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [16:47] * Quits: Santabarbara (~rubys@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:47] <paulc> EME bugs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0101.html
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# [16:48] <glenn> Present+ Glenn Adams
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# [16:48] * rubys1 is now known as Santabarbara
# [16:48] <timeless> s/Glenn Adams/Glenn_Adams/
# [16:48] <paulc> EME bugs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0101.html
# [16:48] <timeless> i/EME/Topic: EME Bugs
# [16:48] <plinss> Present+ Peter_Linss
# [16:48] <timeless> paulc: i sent an email on Oct 19
# [16:48] <timeless> ... each of the lines in this list is from Oct 19
# [16:48] <timeless> ... 10 days later, I updated the status
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# [16:49] <timeless> ... no-action may no longer be correct
# [16:49] <timeless> ... if someone did something after i sent this out
# [16:49] <timeless> ... my proposal is
# [16:49] <timeless> ... these are the outstanding bugs up to ... 19
# [16:49] <timeless> ... then there is a series of bugs filed after Oct 14
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# [16:49] <timeless> ... then another range 24..29 filed after my Oct 19 email
# [16:49] <timeless> ... suggest we start at the top
# [16:50] <timeless> ... obviously, because of the time element, if we get to that one, i'll skip it
# [16:50] <timeless> ... we have 1 1/2, 1, 1 1/2
# [16:50] <timeless> ... 200-300 mins, 30 bugs, ~7 mins/bug
# [16:50] <timeless> ... some prep CR/LC, we'll skip
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# [16:50] <timeless> ... some are more recent which we want to get to since we've never had substantial discussion
# [16:50] <timeless> ... i'll try to go broad rather than deep
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# [16:51] <timeless> ... anyone w/ other suggestions?
# [16:51] <timeless> [ None ]
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# [16:51] <timeless> paulc: because we have BobLund on the phone, we'll pass the mic around
# [16:51] <timeless> ... please use the q
# [16:51] <timeless> ddorwin: we have TAG reps here
# [16:51] <timeless> paulc: how long are TAG reps here for?
# [16:51] <timeless> XXX: here to 11am
# [16:51] <timeless> XXY: same constraint
# [16:52] <timeless> paulc: well, we could switch to those bugs right away
# [16:52] <timeless> ... lower down on the list, but newer
# [16:52] <timeless> ... ok if we did that?
# [16:52] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:52] <timeless> ddorwin: yeah
# [16:52] <timeless> paulc: ok, let's do that
# [16:52] <plinss> s/XXX/plinss/
# [16:52] <timeless> [ Projected bugs 20-24 ]
# [16:52] <plinss> s/XXY/slightlyoff/
# [16:53] <timeless> paulc: three initial bugs from TAG: See 27053, 27054 and 27055 below.
# [16:53] <timeless> ... and then two additional spun out
# [16:53] <timeless> Topic: Bug 27053 - Platform Segmentation
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# [16:53] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27053
# [16:53] <timeless> paulc: I asked for clarification on this bug filed by the TAG but so far none has been supplied. We will review the state of this bug at the F2F meeting.
# [16:53] <timeless> ... could a TAG rep present this?
# [16:54] <timeless> ddorwin: trying to find Dominic
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# [16:54] <timeless> paulc: ok, he's not here, we'll go back to the list from the top
# [16:54] <Cyril> RRSAgent, pointer
# [16:54] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T15-54-40
# [16:54] <timeless> Topic: Bug 25923 - The mechanism for checking key system support should be asynchronous
# [16:54] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25923#c42
# [16:54] <timeless> paulc: David is working is on the open issues and will request feedback when he makes more progress.
# [16:55] <timeless> ddorwin: i updated the basic structure
# [16:55] <timeless> ... there's a Dictionary w/ some structure
# [16:55] <timeless> ... plan is to modify it, compare two shapes of the dictionary in the bug
# [16:55] <timeless> ... the bug just has the list of open issues
# [16:55] <timeless> paulc: are you looking for input?
# [16:55] <timeless> ddorwin: i need to redesign the Dictionary and get feedback
# [16:56] <timeless> ... but we completely changed how we create media keys
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# [16:56] <timeless> ... we call requestMediaSystemAccess()
# [16:56] <timeless> ... which gives you a MediaSystemAccess object
# [16:56] <timeless> ... and you ask it for keys
# [16:56] <timeless> paulc: a lot of these ddorwin assigned to you
# [16:56] <timeless> ... you can reject the request
# [16:56] <timeless> ... can we get an ETA/ordering?
# [16:56] <timeless> ddorwin: technical spec writing one, top (high priority)
# [16:56] <timeless> paulc: anyone have feedback to editor?
# [16:56] <timeless> [ None ]
# [16:56] <timeless> paulc: next
# [16:57] <ddorwin> Current state: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#obtaining-access-to-key-systems
# [16:57] <timeless> topic: Bug 25966 - Use ArrayBufferView and ArrayBuffer instead of Uint8Array in APIs
# [16:57] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25966
# [16:57] <timeless> paulc: This bug is editorial and David is awaiting IDL feedback due to a possible bug in IDL spec.
# [16:57] <timeless> paulc: Oct 29 status: RESOLVED FIXED. See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25966#c5
# [16:57] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [16:57] <Zakim> +Domenic
# [16:57] * Joins: Domenic (~sid10976@public.cloak)
# [16:57] * Joins: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak)
# [16:57] * Joins: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
# [16:57] <timeless> s/Dominic/Domenic/
# [16:58] <timeless> paulc: Domenic do you want to introduce yourself
# [16:58] <timeless> Domenic: Domenic XXW, W3 TAG
# [16:58] <timeless> ... not @TPAC
# [16:58] <timeless> paulc: introduce yourself/schedule
# [16:58] <timeless> Domenic: mostly free this morning
# [16:58] <timeless> ... i realize i threw a lot of work at you guys, so i'm available
# [16:58] <timeless> paulc: we were waiting for you to arrive
# [16:58] <timeless> ... we'll finish the one bug, and then switch back to the TAG bugs
# [16:59] <timeless> paulc: so this bug is done
# [16:59] * Quits: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [16:59] <timeless> i/do you want to introduce/Topic: Domenic joins the bridge/
# [16:59] <timeless> Topic: Bug 27053 - Platform Segmentation
# [16:59] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [16:59] <timeless> paulc: i asked for clarifications
# [17:00] <timeless> ... clarifications are at a minimum in Comment 2, and comment 7
# [17:00] <timeless> ... but could you introduce this bug briefly for us
# [17:00] <timeless> ... and then general discussion
# [17:00] <timeless> Domenic: this bug came out of concerns from tbl
# [17:00] <timeless> ... we have a high standard of Web APIs and how they work
# [17:00] <timeless> ... how open they are to the web
# [17:00] <timeless> ... a lot of parties involved w/ DRM
# [17:00] <timeless> ... through open standards/standardization
# [17:00] <timeless> ... we want to allow independent content providers to be able to use EME
# [17:00] <timeless> ... new browser vendors of course
# [17:01] <timeless> ... you should be able to create new browsers from the spec and support EME
# [17:01] <timeless> ... but Desktop and Mobile browsers
# [17:01] * Joins: khoya (~khoya@public.cloak)
# [17:01] <timeless> ... and new EME key implementers should be able to join the ecosystem
# [17:01] * Joins: rkawada (~rkawada@public.cloak)
# [17:01] <timeless> ... not just standardizing WyPlay, Adobe, or MSPlay
# [17:01] <timeless> ... but others should be able to join
# [17:01] <timeless> ... content providers/developers should be able to implement code that supports content from multiple systems
# [17:02] <timeless> ... developers / content providers shouldn't have to special case that
# [17:02] <timeless> ... concerns from tbl
# [17:02] <timeless> ... that we were standardizing the needs for specific companies
# [17:02] * timeless joesteele : can you fix WyPlay/...
# [17:02] <timeless> paulc: response from EME/Media TF?
# [17:02] <joesteele> q+
# [17:02] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [17:02] * Joins: taku (~taku@public.cloak)
# [17:03] * Joins: igarashi_ (~igarashi@public.cloak)
# [17:03] <timeless> ... i noticed Sergey Konstantinov declined to give proposed change
# [17:03] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [17:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:03] <timeless> joesteele: i have a clarifying question
# [17:03] * timeless ddorwin can you fix WyPlay/... ?
# [17:03] <timeless> ... seems to be standardizing a protocol
# [17:03] <timeless> ... so servers can implement on backend
# [17:03] <ddorwin> s/WyPlay/Widevine/
# [17:03] * Joins: Ruinan (~Ruinan@public.cloak)
# [17:03] <timeless> Domenic: seems like that's the most important part of achieving the objectives
# [17:04] <timeless> ... but i agree with your assessment
# [17:04] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [17:04] <timeless> joesteele: Adobe wouldn't have a problem implementing such a protocol
# [17:04] <timeless> ... but there's another party who isn't in the room
# [17:04] * Quits: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:04] * Quits: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:04] <timeless> ... -- the studios --
# [17:04] <timeless> ... i don't know how to solve that
# [17:04] <timeless> ... from a standards perspective, we think it's great
# [17:04] <ddorwin> q+
# [17:04] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:04] <timeless> ... but implementing something which won't be used by anyone isn't practical
# [17:04] <timeless> q?
# [17:04] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:04] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [17:04] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [17:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:05] * timeless joesteele: can you fix Adobe near MSPlay ?
# [17:05] * Joins: ShaneM_ (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
# [17:05] <timeless> ddorwin: maybe signatures are opaque
# [17:05] <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [17:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html plh
# [17:05] <timeless> ... it's a big effort
# [17:05] <timeless> ... we're going to need approvals
# [17:05] * Joins: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak)
# [17:05] <timeless> ... important to maintain robustness, features people want
# [17:05] <timeless> ... i'm not convinced the security is in the format so much
# [17:05] <timeless> ... have the experience of the people who know these things
# [17:06] * timeless adrianba please fix MSPlay?
# [17:06] <Yves> Present+ Yves_LAfon
# [17:06] <timeless> q?
# [17:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:06] <markw> q+
# [17:06] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [17:06] <timeless> MarkVickers_: thanks
# [17:06] <glenn> q+
# [17:06] * Zakim sees markw, glenn on the speaker queue
# [17:06] <timeless> ... i can't represent all the studios
# [17:06] <timeless> ... but we have a studio in my company
# [17:06] <timeless> ... studios don't want proprietary technology
# [17:06] <timeless> ... they evaluate/set criteria based on protection
# [17:06] <timeless> ... i don't think it would be negative
# [17:06] <timeless> ... we'd welcome it/evaluate it
# [17:07] <timeless> ... w/ EME, we can interface w/ the available technologies
# [17:07] <timeless> ... but the same interface could work for open-standards or standards-protocol based implementation
# [17:07] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:07] <timeless> ack markw
# [17:07] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
# [17:08] <timeless> markw: similar comment to MarkVickers_
# [17:08] <timeless> ... if DRM vendors want to get together and agree on open formats, that's great
# [17:08] <timeless> ... if that work is done here
# [17:08] <timeless> ... what does that really mean from an IPR perspective?
# [17:08] <timeless> ... various DRM vendors won't propose something to which they have rights
# [17:08] <timeless> ... maybe they have the right to use it
# [17:08] <timeless> ... but maybe not the right to grant licenses
# [17:08] <timeless> .... there are dragons there
# [17:08] <timeless> ... of going in this direction
# [17:08] <timeless> ... this would take some time
# [17:09] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [17:09] <timeless> ... time to get support into DRMs
# [17:09] <ddorwin> q+
# [17:09] * Zakim sees glenn, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:09] <timeless> ... we wouldn't want to see EME held up for that length of time
# [17:09] <timeless> ... we'd like to see EME deployed w/ proprietary protocols
# [17:09] <adrianba> q+
# [17:09] * Zakim sees glenn, ddorwin, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [17:09] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin, you said you were thinking of something on the table
# [17:09] <timeless> ... were you thinking of a place in EME for a hook to a second spec?
# [17:09] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [17:09] * Zakim sees glenn, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [17:09] <timeless> ddorwin: i don't know
# [17:09] <timeless> ... i was thinking of a second parameter
# [17:10] <timeless> ... we could have a second document in the same directory
# [17:10] <timeless> ... iterate on that
# [17:10] <timeless> ... i agree we don't want to block
# [17:10] <timeless> ... we want to ship, as well
# [17:10] <timeless> ... same approach as PSSH
# [17:10] <timeless> ... yes these exist, but people should be moving in this direction
# [17:10] * timeless ddorwin ? PSSH ??
# [17:10] <timeless> ack glenn
# [17:10] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [17:10] <timeless> glenn: not sure there's any bug, w/ EME documented here
# [17:10] <markw> s/to which they have rights/to which they don't have rights/
# [17:10] <timeless> ... unless the presumption here is requesting excluding proprietary DRMs be excluded
# [17:11] <timeless> ... i'd suggest we close this bug as LATER/noaction now
# [17:11] <timeless> ... nothing in there that reads on EME, unless it's adding a note for future work
# [17:11] <timeless> q?
# [17:11] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [17:11] * Joins: rkawada_ (~rkawada@public.cloak)
# [17:11] <timeless> Domenic: i'd caution against pushing this work onto your future selves
# [17:11] <timeless> ... especially if ddorwin says he has an idea of how to get started on this
# [17:11] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
# [17:11] <timeless> ... it doesn't have to prevent these features from shipping in their more proprietary form
# [17:12] <joesteele> q+
# [17:12] * Zakim sees adrianba, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [17:12] <timeless> ... but we should be able to get started on this to get it better
# [17:12] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [17:12] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [17:12] <timeless> adrianba: clarifying question
# [17:12] * timeless ddorwin ? PSSH ?? <- please fix
# [17:12] <timeless> adrianba: do you mean network protocols for exchange between clients and servers for messages
# [17:12] <timeless> ... or client protocol between ECM and Service
# [17:12] * timeless adrianba ECM ??
# [17:12] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:13] * Joins: jamesx (~jamesx@public.cloak)
# [17:13] <timeless> Domenic: lot of moving parts here
# [17:13] <timeless> ... my understanding is that the Server protocol would be important
# [17:13] <timeless> ... down to goals we have
# [17:13] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [17:13] <timeless> s/ECM/CDM/
# [17:13] <markw> Q+
# [17:13] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
# [17:13] <ddorwin> q+
# [17:13] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:13] <timeless> ... i guess we want anyone to be able to communicate w/ CDM
# [17:13] <markw> q+
# [17:13] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:13] <timeless> ... i think the network protocol as well
# [17:13] <timeless> adrianba: i think w/ current EME structure
# [17:13] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [17:14] <timeless> ... communication to License service is in the realm of the application owner
# [17:14] <timeless> ... nothing proprietary in that exchange
# [17:14] <pal> q+
# [17:14] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw, ddorwin, pal on the speaker queue
# [17:14] <timeless> ... i don't think we have an objection to standardizing that
# [17:14] <timeless> ... that would open up new scenarios
# [17:14] <timeless> ... you could have common code running a player knowing automatically how to get licenses from different service providers
# [17:14] <timeless> ... because the api could be the same
# [17:14] <timeless> ... for the common case, i don't think that's really blocking
# [17:14] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [17:15] <timeless> ... we abstracted that at the API level in the spec
# [17:15] <timeless> ... i don't see that as blocking interoperable implementation
# [17:15] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [17:15] * Zakim sees markw, ddorwin, pal on the speaker queue
# [17:15] <timeless> joesteele: when i asked about network-protocol
# [17:15] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
# [17:15] <timeless> ... i was thinking not so much about App sending opaque to license server
# [17:15] <timeless> ... i was thinking what does a license look like
# [17:15] <timeless> ... how are keys included, things like that
# [17:15] <timeless> ... other comment was
# [17:15] * Quits: rkawada (~rkawada@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:15] <timeless> ... about Q on APIs, protocol between App and License Server
# [17:15] * rkawada_ is now known as rkawada
# [17:15] <timeless> ... as between CDM and Platform
# [17:16] <timeless> ... don't know if we could do that, i'd like to see work there
# [17:16] * Joins: song (~song@public.cloak)
# [17:16] <timeless> ... not sure if W3C is right place for that, definitely long term proposal
# [17:16] <timeless> ... just negotiating such a spec would be a year
# [17:16] <timeless> ... and implementing it longer
# [17:16] <timeless> ... third? ... i'll have to think about other thing
# [17:16] <timeless> ack markw
# [17:16] * Zakim sees ddorwin, pal on the speaker queue
# [17:16] <timeless> markw: i think standardization of Opaque blobs
# [17:16] <timeless> ... license server might be something else, dealt w/ libraries
# [17:17] <timeless> ... Q of standard api for CDM
# [17:17] <timeless> ... is something, for browser vendors
# [17:17] <timeless> ... browsers created NPAPI
# [17:17] <timeless> ... something like that
# [17:17] <timeless> ... MS published CDMI
# [17:17] <timeless> ... i think, going towards that
# [17:17] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) (Lachy)
# [17:17] <timeless> ... for things they wanted to do
# [17:17] <timeless> ... it isn't really in our scope, it'd be good
# [17:17] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [17:17] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [17:17] <adrianba> if it is the format of the blob then that is the protocol between the CDM and the client application that we're talking about not network at all
# [17:17] <timeless> ddorwin: this is about the License Protocol
# [17:17] <timeless> ... CDMI is very narrow in what platforms may need
# [17:17] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:17] <timeless> ... platforms vary so much
# [17:17] <timeless> ... a fraction of what we have in Chrome for various things
# [17:18] <timeless> ... even the interface we provide in Chrome isn't what's used in Chrome, because we have a shim
# [17:18] <timeless> ... as long as you're clear about what you're expecting from a browser
# [17:18] <markw> http://download.microsoft.com/download/E/A/4/EA470677-6C3C-4AFE-8A86-A196ADFD0F78/Content%20Decryption%20Module%20Interface%20Specification.pdf
# [17:18] <timeless> ... it's easy to shim
# [17:18] <timeless> ... Hardware, SSEs are implementing things over and over
# [17:18] <timeless> joesteele: that's what i'd like to see standardized
# [17:18] <timeless> ack pal
# [17:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:18] <timeless> pal: Pal, MoviLabs
# [17:19] <timeless> ... struggling how EME doesn't support a fully open CDM
# [17:19] <timeless> ... unless EME doesn't do that
# [17:19] <ddorwin> q+
# [17:19] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:19] <timeless> ... i'm not sure there's a bug here
# [17:19] <timeless> ... what is the bug?
# [17:19] <timeless> markw: that CDM doesn't exist
# [17:19] <plh> q+
# [17:19] * Zakim sees ddorwin, plh on the speaker queue
# [17:19] <timeless> pal: that's orthogonal
# [17:19] <timeless> ... there is an open and fully specified DRM today
# [17:19] <timeless> paulc: for fear of getting on w3-meme
# [17:19] <timeless> ... i don't want to speak for the Director
# [17:20] <timeless> ... when we call for implementations of EME
# [17:20] <markw> q+
# [17:20] * Zakim sees ddorwin, plh, markw on the speaker queue
# [17:20] <Domenic> q+
# [17:20] * Zakim sees ddorwin, plh, markw, Domenic on the speaker queue
# [17:20] <timeless> ... one thing Director asks is to get new people to come with implementations
# [17:20] <timeless> ... the call is meant to demonstrate that the spec can be used by a third party who wasn't in the room, to implement
# [17:20] <timeless> ... pal, you're saying they could implement it
# [17:20] <timeless> s/Pal/Pierre/
# [17:20] <ddorwin> q?
# [17:20] * Zakim sees ddorwin, plh, markw, Domenic on the speaker queue
# [17:20] <timeless> paulc: could you put that they could in the bug?
# [17:21] <timeless> pal: can we resolve this bug today
# [17:21] <timeless> ... if i write in the bug, can we resolve it?
# [17:21] <timeless> paulc: two people said we might resolve this LATER/something else
# [17:21] <joesteele> q?
# [17:21] * Zakim sees ddorwin, plh, markw, Domenic on the speaker queue
# [17:21] <timeless> ... one person said they might make a proposal to add something to EME
# [17:21] <timeless> ... seems like we might need more discussion
# [17:22] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [17:22] * Zakim sees plh, markw, Domenic on the speaker queue
# [17:22] * timeless un ack
# [17:22] <timeless> ack Domenic
# [17:22] * Zakim sees plh, markw on the speaker queue
# [17:22] <timeless> Domenic: wanted to second interoperable implementations
# [17:22] <plh> q-
# [17:22] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [17:22] <timeless> ... and Director's concerns there
# [17:22] <timeless> ... one of the best things to be done
# [17:22] <timeless> ... would be go beyond "hey, 2 browsers implement EME, and APIs exist"
# [17:23] <timeless> ... want to show multiple EMEs, content providers, interacting in an interoperable way
# [17:23] <pal> q+
# [17:23] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
# [17:23] <timeless> ... that's what we're trying to get at
# [17:23] <timeless> ddorwin: reiterating what Domenic said
# [17:23] <timeless> ... all EME does now is expose proprietary blobs
# [17:23] <timeless> ... they want to see interoperable
# [17:23] * Joins: forty41 (~forty4@public.cloak)
# [17:23] <timeless> ... instead of just a spec
# [17:23] <BobLund> q+
# [17:23] * Zakim sees markw, pal, BobLund on the speaker queue
# [17:24] <timeless> ... part of it is "what does it mean to have 2 interoperable"
# [17:24] <timeless> ack markw
# [17:24] * Zakim sees pal, BobLund on the speaker queue
# [17:24] <timeless> markw: EME is operating today
# [17:24] <timeless> ... w/ multiple browsers, providers
# [17:24] <timeless> ... we need to support multiple key systems server side
# [17:24] <joesteele> q+
# [17:24] * Zakim sees pal, BobLund, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [17:24] <timeless> ... it's equally difficult for us as anyone else
# [17:24] <timeless> ... EME could support an open DRM CDM today if someone made it
# [17:24] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
# [17:24] <timeless> ... we could write something into the EME spec that CDMs support a specific thing
# [17:25] <timeless> ... different thing, go to DRMs saying you can keep your proprietary
# [17:25] * Parts: jeff_ (jeff@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [17:25] <timeless> ... but we want you to support an open thing too
# [17:25] <timeless> ack pal
# [17:25] * Zakim sees BobLund, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [17:25] <timeless> pal: i think some of the things said here
# [17:25] <timeless> ... were interesting suggestions
# [17:25] <timeless> ... Exit-Criteria
# [17:25] <timeless> ... things to put in the Spec
# [17:25] <timeless> ... but that isn't the bug
# [17:25] <timeless> ... how do we resolve this bug
# [17:25] <timeless> ... do we close this bug and open other bugs?
# [17:25] <timeless> ack BobLund
# [17:25] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [17:26] <timeless> BobLund: wanted to respond to Domenic 's point about Interop
# [17:26] <timeless> ... we've demonstrated ability to take single piece of content
# [17:26] <timeless> ... encrypt w/ multiple keysystems
# [17:26] <timeless> ... and play back w/ multiple CDMs
# [17:26] <markw> s/keep your proprietary/keep your proprietary robustness solution and business arrangements/
# [17:26] <timeless> ... is that interop, because that exists
# [17:26] <timeless> Domenic: how much code was keysystem specific?
# [17:26] <markw> s/an open thing too/open message formats/
# [17:27] <timeless> ... sounds like your comments and markw 's that there's a good start on interop
# [17:27] * Joins: stone (~emu@public.cloak)
# [17:27] * Quits: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:27] <timeless> ... sounds like on license that it isn't interoperable
# [17:27] <slightlyoff> that would be helpful
# [17:27] <timeless> BobLund: we'd be happy to share the details
# [17:27] <timeless> ... tell us the right venue/mechanism
# [17:27] <timeless> paulc: the bug
# [17:27] <timeless> Domenic: largely a matter in showing interop to go to CR
# [17:27] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
# [17:27] <timeless> ... we're happy to help get involve
# [17:27] <timeless> q?
# [17:27] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [17:27] <timeless> ... happy to continue conversation sometime
# [17:27] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [17:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:28] * Quits: stone (~emu@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [17:28] <timeless> joesteele: not clear on part of the goal of this bug
# [17:28] <timeless> ... same server on server side could service any key system on the client side
# [17:28] <timeless> ... i don't think that's possible
# [17:28] <timeless> ... since key encryption is hardware specific
# [17:28] <timeless> ... and requires specific stuff on the server side
# [17:28] <timeless> ... i think that might enforce proprietary code on server side
# [17:28] * Joins: ddavis_ (~ddavis_@public.cloak)
# [17:28] <timeless> paulc: i've heard
# [17:28] * Joins: stone (~emu@public.cloak)
# [17:28] <timeless> ... a) no issue
# [17:28] <Domenic> joesteele: I think that is pretty well covered by https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27053#c7
# [17:28] <timeless> ... b) here's the proof
# [17:29] <timeless> ... that's what we want added into the bug
# [17:29] * Quits: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:29] <timeless> ... and ddorwin you had something to propose
# [17:29] * Quits: ddavis_ (~ddavis_@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [17:29] <timeless> ... i think people understand the direction TAG suggests we go
# [17:29] <timeless> ... think we should have some dialog
# [17:29] <timeless> q?
# [17:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:29] <timeless> ... i think it's presumptuous to close this bug
# [17:29] <timeless> topic: Bug 27054 Accessibility Concerns
# [17:29] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
# [17:30] <ddavis> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27054 Accessibility Concerns
# [17:30] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27054
# [17:30] <timeless> paulc: I asked for clarification on this bug filed by the TAG and then asked the A11Y TF to supply their view which was done in:
# [17:30] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27054#c3
# [17:30] <timeless> paulc: john folliet said he didn't see a problem
# [17:31] <timeless> ddorwin: john said he didn't see a problem
# [17:31] <Yves> s/folliet/foliot
# [17:31] <timeless> ... and then YYY said their interpretation wasn't right
# [17:31] <timeless> ... no one's done the wrong thing
# [17:31] <timeless> ... audio, i don't know the accessibility features there
# [17:31] <timeless> ... if that's over protected HDMI, there's a problem
# [17:31] <timeless> ... secure video path is a problem
# [17:31] <MarkVickers_> q+
# [17:31] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
# [17:31] <timeless> ... there are concerns there
# [17:31] <timeless> ... don't know the answer
# [17:31] <plh> q+
# [17:31] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_, plh on the speaker queue
# [17:31] <timeless> ack MarkVickers_
# [17:31] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [17:31] <timeless> MarkVickers_: thanks paulc
# [17:32] <timeless> ... i read through this bug, i don't understand
# [17:32] <timeless> ... strong benefits of EME is accessibility
# [17:32] <timeless> ... if you want access for captions
# [17:32] <timeless> ... trick-plays
# [17:32] <plh> q-
# [17:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:32] <timeless> ... any of those things are done by completely arbitrary interfaces
# [17:32] * plh found his answer
# [17:32] <timeless> ... done through proprietary means
# [17:32] <timeless> ... EME API provides HTML5 standard access for Caption, Trick Play, moving through media streams
# [17:33] <timeless> ... references to media streams
# [17:33] <timeless> ... huge improvements for Accessibilty
# [17:33] <timeless> ... strong driver for us to move our content to it
# [17:33] <timeless> ... i don't see downsides, i see all improvements
# [17:33] <timeless> q?
# [17:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:33] * Joins: emu_ (~emu@public.cloak)
# [17:33] <timeless> Domenic: largely agree w/ ddorwin 's assessment
# [17:33] <timeless> ... a11y came back w/ good review
# [17:34] <timeless> ... but harry came back w/ points
# [17:34] <timeless> ... worth just watching
# [17:34] <timeless> ... i agree better-than-best
# [17:34] <timeless> ... goal should be as accessible as unencrypted
# [17:34] <timeless> ... not as-accessible-as-flash
# [17:34] <timeless> paulc: MarkVickers_ is saying we're better rather than equal
# [17:34] <Domenic> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27054#c7 is what i was thinking of
# [17:34] <timeless> s/harry/hsivonen
# [17:35] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin did you propose changes
# [17:35] <timeless> ddorwin: John Foliot and i discussed
# [17:35] <markw> q+
# [17:35] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [17:35] <timeless> ... i thought someone was going to file a bug and fill it in
# [17:35] <timeless> ... one problem area is high-contrast
# [17:35] <timeless> paulc: you'll spin off bugs for audio/video/text
# [17:35] <MarkVickers_> I'm believe that EME provides ALL the same HTML5 accessibility for encrypted content as for unencrypted content.
# [17:36] <timeless> markw: biggest is video
# [17:36] <timeless> ... any accessibility function can be done in device
# [17:36] <timeless> ... can still be done w/ DRM
# [17:36] <timeless> ... but that's a QoI thing
# [17:36] <timeless> ... impact on a11y tools
# [17:36] <timeless> ... any tool that accepts HDMI can work
# [17:36] <timeless> ... but tools are reduced if they do HDCP will reduce a11y tool
# [17:36] <timeless> q?
# [17:36] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [17:37] <timeless> ack markw
# [17:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:37] <timeless> topic: Bug 27055 Surfacing license to the user
# [17:37] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27055
# [17:37] <timeless> paulc: I asked for clarification on this bug filed by the TAG and this has generated new active discussion.
# [17:37] <timeless> ... who wants to introduce?
# [17:38] <timeless> Domenic: not sure we'll be able to have a productive discussion on bug
# [17:38] <timeless> ... it's mostly Sergey Konstantinov, and he isn't in the room
# [17:38] <timeless> ... seems like a reasonable request to me
# [17:38] <timeless> ... to translate machine readable request
# [17:38] * Quits: stone (~emu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:38] <slightlyoff> +1, I agree that we aren't going to make progress on this here
# [17:38] <timeless> ... machine readable 1 hour
# [17:38] <timeless> ... reasonable to give chance for human to understand
# [17:38] <markw> it's content providers who insist on HDCP and it is this insistence that reduces the set of a11y tools that could manipulate video to those that support HDCP not anything in EME
# [17:38] <timeless> joesteele: when i read this, it seems like a restriction on the application
# [17:38] <timeless> ... we could expose it from the CDM layer
# [17:38] <timeless> ... but if the application chooses not to expose it
# [17:39] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [17:39] <timeless> ... and i don't know any application that would
# [17:39] <timeless> ... how useful would it be?
# [17:39] <timeless> Domenic: you click the lock icon in your url bar
# [17:39] <timeless> ... 90% of users don't
# [17:39] <timeless> ... but some users do, to want to verify it
# [17:39] <timeless> paulc: there could be guidance in the spec for UAs
# [17:39] <timeless> ... whether we could make it mandatory would be hard
# [17:39] <timeless> Domenic: yeah, there's discussion in the bug
# [17:40] <joesteele> timeless:FCC Chair was here Wednedsayd regulations could happen -- whether we ask for them or not
# [17:40] <markw> q+
# [17:40] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [17:40] <joesteele> ... this is not an unreasonable authoring encouragement
# [17:40] <adrianba> q+
# [17:40] * Zakim sees markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [17:40] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [17:40] <joesteele> ... be aware that it might make sense to add a regulatory hook -- that FCC can point to
# [17:41] <slightlyoff> I don't understand that suggestion...is there a concrete proposal?
# [17:41] <timeless> s/Wednedsayd/Wednesday/
# [17:41] <timeless> markw: perfectly reasonable for service providers to express
# [17:41] <timeless> ... and if they don't do it, it's outside of scope
# [17:41] <timeless> ... and w/o those, regulations may happen
# [17:41] <timeless> ... but that's different from Technical restrictions in the key
# [17:41] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:41] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
# [17:42] <timeless> ... unclear that those technical restrictions are meaningful
# [17:42] <timeless> q?
# [17:42] * Zakim sees markw, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [17:42] <MarkVickers_> +1
# [17:42] <timeless> ack markw
# [17:42] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [17:42] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [17:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:42] <markw> q-
# [17:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:42] <timeless> adrianba: i agree w/ markw
# [17:42] <timeless> ... technical restrictions conveyed in licenses can vary considerably in various scenarios
# [17:43] <timeless> ... very time consuming to try to put together a technical API for the various restrictions
# [17:43] * Joins: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [17:43] <timeless> paulc: to bring this bug to a Media TF and get Sergey Konstantinov to attend
# [17:43] <MarkVickers_> q+
# [17:43] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
# [17:43] <timeless> ddorwin: i'll action paulc to arrange meeting w/ Sergey
# [17:44] <timeless> ... done
# [17:44] <timeless> topic: Bug 27093 Support for proprietary/system-specific formats in initData should be discouraged/deprecated
# [17:44] <timeless> s|topic: Bug 27093 Support for proprietary/system-specific formats in initData should be discouraged/deprecated||
# [17:44] <timeless> topic: Bug 27166 - All identifiers associated with a user should be clearable in the same way cookies are
# [17:44] * Joins: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak)
# [17:44] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27166
# [17:44] <adrianba> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/68 Paul's action
# [17:45] <timeless> paulc: TAG is asking that keys be flushable like cookies
# [17:45] * Quits: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:45] <timeless> Domenic: i understand it might not be robust
# [17:45] <timeless> ... hsivonen had some idea
# [17:45] <ddorwin> q+
# [17:45] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:45] <timeless> ... something to be exposed to users if it's that possible
# [17:45] <timeless> topic: Bug 27165 - User agents should warn users if they bring along unclearable identifiers
# [17:46] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27165
# [17:46] <timeless> paulc: sounds like these bugs are very related
# [17:46] <timeless> topic: Bug 27166 - All identifiers associated with a user should be clearable in the same way cookies are
# [17:46] <MarkVickers_> q-
# [17:46] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:46] <joesteele> q+
# [17:46] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [17:46] <timeless> markw: if people agree to 27166, maybe we don't need 27165
# [17:46] * Quits: igarashi_ (~igarashi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:46] * Joins: igarashi__ (~igarashi@public.cloak)
# [17:46] <timeless> ... do it first and see
# [17:47] <timeless> ... for NetFlix, there's no requirement for browsers to have unclearable identifiers
# [17:47] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:47] <timeless> ... if the identifiers are clearable, it's fine by us
# [17:47] * Domenic \o/
# [17:47] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [17:47] <timeless> It would be ideal if we required that clearing ones cookies, history, etc. also cleared any such identifiers.
# [17:47] <timeless> I am unsure this is possible for robustness reasons, and as such filed bug #27165 to explore mitigating strategies, but if there is even a chance of requiring they be clearable that would be much better, and would love to have that discussion in this bug.
# [17:47] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:47] <timeless> q?
# [17:47] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [17:47] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [17:47] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [17:47] <timeless> ddorwin: you asked how are we going to address this
# [17:47] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [17:47] <timeless> ... probably a series of shoulds
# [17:47] <jdsmith> q+
# [17:47] * Zakim sees joesteele, jdsmith on the speaker queue
# [17:48] <timeless> ... implementation guidelines
# [17:48] <markw> specifically, I a referring to identifiers that uniquely identify a device
# [17:48] <timeless> paulc: do we have a security and privacy section?
# [17:48] <timeless> ddorwin: yes, currently non-normative
# [17:48] * Joins: wooglae1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [17:48] <timeless> ... we could do it elsewhere or here (in this room, now)
# [17:48] <timeless> ... no id, clearable, reset this if i want
# [17:48] <timeless> ... various robustness
# [17:48] <timeless> ... i think ids are overused
# [17:48] <timeless> ... don't use an id unless you actually need
# [17:48] <timeless> q?
# [17:48] * Zakim sees joesteele, jdsmith on the speaker queue
# [17:48] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [17:48] * Zakim sees jdsmith on the speaker queue
# [17:49] <timeless> joesteele: Q, I agree w/ this bug
# [17:49] <timeless> ... but what do they mean by identifiers
# [17:49] <timeless> ... a list of things given
# [17:49] <timeless> ... what is the scope of the identifier being given
# [17:49] <pal> q+
# [17:49] * Zakim sees jdsmith, pal on the speaker queue
# [17:49] <timeless> ... if a key used by all CDMs for a keysystem
# [17:49] <timeless> ... is that an identifier
# [17:49] <ddorwin> q+
# [17:49] * Zakim sees jdsmith, pal, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:49] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:49] <timeless> ... this would be a permanent identifier, baked into the CDM client
# [17:49] <timeless> ... you're using the CDM
# [17:50] * Quits: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:50] <glenn> q+
# [17:50] * Zakim sees jdsmith, pal, ddorwin, glenn on the speaker queue
# [17:50] <timeless> paulc: is TAG issue about whether a identifier can identify the person using the UA
# [17:50] <timeless> Domenic: exactly
# [17:50] <timeless> ... it's a fingerprinting issue
# [17:50] <timeless> ... if you can identify the CDM/system in play
# [17:50] <timeless> joesteele: answers my question
# [17:50] <timeless> ack jdsmith
# [17:50] * Zakim sees pal, ddorwin, glenn on the speaker queue
# [17:50] <timeless> jdsmith: Jerry Smith, Microsoft
# [17:50] <timeless> jdsmith: in PlayReady
# [17:50] <timeless> s/MSPlay/MS PlayReady/
# [17:50] <timeless> ... we have an identifier in personsalization of key system
# [17:51] <timeless> ... we looked at privacy aspect
# [17:51] <timeless> ... we felt it was a fairly low risk
# [17:51] <timeless> ... exploiting it
# [17:51] <joesteele> it would be great if the comment about what types of identifiers are concerned about (aka fingerprinting user versus KeySystems) could be added to the bug
# [17:51] <timeless> ... took license servers, required them to retrieve it
# [17:51] <timeless> ... we concluded to allow users to delete it
# [17:51] <timeless> q?
# [17:51] * Zakim sees pal, ddorwin, glenn on the speaker queue
# [17:51] <timeless> ... wouldn't object to recommending that in the spec
# [17:51] <timeless> ack pal
# [17:51] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn on the speaker queue
# [17:51] <timeless> pal: is there a W3C spec that mandates/recommends clearing cookies?
# [17:51] <timeless> ... under what circumstances
# [17:52] <wseltzer> q+ re fingerprinting guidance
# [17:52] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer on the speaker queue
# [17:52] <timeless> slightlyoff: Alex Russel, Google
# [17:52] <timeless> ... there's no spec
# [17:52] <timeless> ... there's rough consensus of UAs
# [17:52] * Joins: adrianba_ (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [17:52] <timeless> ... users have consensus of expectations
# [17:52] <timeless> ... and as vendors, we understand that there's a third rail
# [17:52] <timeless> ... we're powerfully compelled to do this on their behalf
# [17:52] <adrianba_> q?
# [17:52] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer on the speaker queue
# [17:52] <timeless> pal: all this is done w/o a spec
# [17:53] <plh> q+
# [17:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer, plh on the speaker queue
# [17:53] <timeless> plh: Philippe Le Hégaret W3
# [17:53] <wseltzer> [Fingerprinting guidance being developed in the Privacy Interest Group: https://w3c.github.io/fingerprinting-guidance/ ]
# [17:53] <slightlyoff> pal: it's a good point, at the same time, the concern is that there might be specs that put undue constraints on impls in this way
# [17:53] <timeless> ... we have Web Story, User Tracking
# [17:53] <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/webstorage/#privacy
# [17:53] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
# [17:53] <joesteele> s/personsalization/personalization/
# [17:53] <timeless> s/Story/Storage/
# [17:53] <markw> q+
# [17:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, wseltzer, plh, markw on the speaker queue
# [17:53] <timeless> ... so there's no reason this spec couldn't do this as well
# [17:53] <wseltzer> q-
# [17:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, plh, markw on the speaker queue
# [17:54] <timeless> ... it's a REC actually
# [17:54] <timeless> paulc: i guess it does matter
# [17:54] <timeless> q?
# [17:54] * Zakim sees ddorwin, glenn, plh, markw on the speaker queue
# [17:54] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [17:54] * Zakim sees glenn, plh, markw on the speaker queue
# [17:54] <slightlyoff> pal: the specific concern is that if impls are REQUIRED by some combination of tech and licenses to break these assumptions, it's very bad
# [17:54] <slightlyoff> and is likely to be unacceptable
# [17:54] <timeless> ddorwin: clearly there's disagreement on what constitutes a privacy concern
# [17:54] <timeless> ... something to work out
# [17:54] <timeless> ... in interest of users if we work it out
# [17:54] <timeless> ... take steps to help them
# [17:54] <timeless> ... even w/ a permanent HW ID
# [17:54] <plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/IndexedDB/#privacy
# [17:54] <timeless> ... mechanisms to protect them
# [17:55] <timeless> ... also, Desktop browsers have done good things here
# [17:55] <timeless> ... also have to remember devices
# [17:55] <timeless> ... also browsers/native apps exposing the same id
# [17:55] <timeless> ... browser vendors should take that seriously
# [17:55] <timeless> ... i don't think solving this fixes the previous one
# [17:55] <timeless> ... cryptographic cookie
# [17:55] <timeless> ... could rebuild firefox/chromium and put whatever
# [17:56] <timeless> paulc: you just had pushback on closing this
# [17:56] <timeless> markw: WebStorage spec
# [17:56] * Quits: taku (~taku@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [17:56] <glenn> q-
# [17:56] * Zakim sees plh, markw on the speaker queue
# [17:56] <timeless> ... text came from the same source
# [17:56] <timeless> ... into the EME privacy section
# [17:56] <timeless> ... i think i copied+pasted
# [17:56] <timeless> ... in WebStorage it says here are things you could do
# [17:56] <pal> q+
# [17:56] * Zakim sees plh, markw, pal on the speaker queue
# [17:56] <timeless> ... we could say these are required/should
# [17:56] <timeless> ... on cookie DRM ids
# [17:56] <timeless> ... if you can clear the identifier and make a new one
# [17:57] <timeless> ... you could make one device and look like multiple
# [17:57] <timeless> ... we don't care
# [17:57] <plh> q-
# [17:57] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
# [17:57] <timeless> ... if you can make multiple devices look like one
# [17:57] <timeless> ... we care
# [17:57] <joesteele> +1
# [17:57] <timeless> ... you can copy cookies across devices
# [17:57] <timeless> ... that's a problem
# [17:57] <timeless> ack markw
# [17:57] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [17:58] * Joins: danbri1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [17:58] <timeless> ack pal
# [17:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:58] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:58] <timeless> paulc: updating 27166 to point to existing material
# [17:58] <timeless> ... and ask about whether it should be NORMATIVE is the next tep
# [17:58] <timeless> s/tep/step/
# [17:58] <ddorwin> q+
# [17:58] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [17:59] <timeless> markw: it's Non Normative in the spec
# [17:59] <timeless> ... different to WebStorage (where it's normative)
# [17:59] <adrianba_> s/pal: the specific concern/pal, the specific concern/
# [17:59] <timeless> ... but neither have shoulds/musts
# [17:59] <timeless> ddorwin: it's non normative
# [17:59] <pal> slightlyoff, can you elaborate on the specific concerns?
# [17:59] <timeless> ... we could have "here's introduction"
# [17:59] <timeless> ... and then "here's the recommendations", and that's normative
# [17:59] <timeless> paulc: an editor assigned to this bug?
# [17:59] <timeless> [ Adrian ]
# [18:00] <timeless> markw: i'll work on it
# [18:00] <slightlyoff> pal: consider a situation where we had a persistent identifier across browsers for a specific bit of hardware in some other way
# [18:00] <slightlyoff> pal: and where users couldn't clear it
# [18:00] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin assign it to markw
# [18:00] <timeless> ... markw will bring it up to date
# [18:00] <slightlyoff> pal: (e.g., a CPUID)
# [18:00] <timeless> ... I think that covers the TAG bugs
# [18:00] <timeless> ... we're going to switch to another item at 10am
# [18:00] <slightlyoff> pal: browser vendors are very likely to mask that and/or prevent it from being available
# [18:00] <timeless> ... bug about https:
# [18:01] <timeless> topic: Bug 27165 - User agents should warn users if they bring along unclearable identifiers
# [18:01] <slightlyoff> pal: because privacy is a key component of what a browser promises to "be" in terms of an agent for the user's interests
# [18:01] <pal> slightlyoff, ok... so I am still no sure what is incorrect with the EME specification
# [18:01] <timeless> paulc: we'll come back to this after 27166
# [18:01] * Quits: adrianba_ (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:01] * Joins: adrianba_ (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [18:01] <timeless> topic: Bug 26332 Applications should only use EME APIs on secure origins (e.g. HTTPS)
# [18:01] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332
# [18:01] <timeless> paulc: Belongs in batch of security related bugs which also includes: Bug 26838 - Normatively address vulnerabilities related to initData contained in media data
# [18:01] <timeless> ... thirty five comments
# [18:02] <timeless> ... ddorwin made a change, people asked it to be changed
# [18:02] <slightlyoff> pal: perhaps nothing! The question from the TAG is roughly along the lines of "is it the case that users are likely to be able to control this in common implementations?"
# [18:02] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332#c130
# [18:02] <timeless> markw: I discussed the spec change with David and we agreed to change the text for the moment so that it is clear the behavior on unauthenticated origins is an open issue.
# [18:02] <timeless> ... The procedures still describe the check for an unauthenticated origin, but the subsequent behaviour is noted as open with a reference to this bug.
# [18:02] <timeless> ... There is no disagreement that there is a problem to be solved here.
# [18:02] * ShaneM_ is now known as ShaneM
# [18:02] <timeless> ... The disagreement is about the solution and it requires continued discussion.
# [18:02] <slightlyoff> pal: the spec text has bearing on it, but what this room agrees to is more important because it'll help us understand the likely implications, which are what's important
# [18:02] <timeless> [ from the bug ]
# [18:03] <timeless> markw: it's been proposed that we require an authenticated origin from EME
# [18:03] <timeless> ... a bunch of problems it would resolve
# [18:03] * adrianba_ is now known as adrianba
# [18:03] <timeless> ... there are implications
# [18:03] <timeless> ... from serving the site, it would be great
# [18:03] <pal> slightlyoff, ok... I think it is very difficult for this group to make progress on these bugs without a clear proposal and/or pointers to specific areas that are broken.
# [18:03] <timeless> ... but for serving the content, we don't believe switching to https isn't great for privacy
# [18:03] <timeless> ... costs of actually serving media over https
# [18:03] * Joins: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak)
# [18:03] <timeless> ... it would be 30-50% increase in server load
# [18:03] <timeless> ... $10s-100s millions / year
# [18:04] <timeless> ... best way forward
# [18:04] <timeless> ... look at what are the conditions
# [18:04] <timeless> ... in which it's reasonable to use http://
# [18:04] <timeless> ... if they're met, it's ok, if not, it's ok
# [18:04] <timeless> ... discuss in detail about the conditions
# [18:04] <timeless> ... look at those
# [18:04] <timeless> paulc: does anything in the bug define those criteria?
# [18:04] <timeless> markw: i think someone agreed to make one
# [18:04] <slightlyoff> pal: the way to think about it is a question: the TAG wants to understand what's likely as a way to understand how it'll impact the overall architecture. If the spec text needs stronger language to constrain impls, that's something we want to understand
# [18:04] <timeless> ... hsivonen?
# [18:04] <pal> slightlyoff, in other words, I am concerned with "perhaps nothing" since it is difficult to come up with a solution when the problem is not well scoped/understood
# [18:05] <timeless> ... for people who don't want to read all 130 comments, just reading hsivonen's comments would be good
# [18:05] <slightlyoff> pal: the TAG isn't going to dive in and require things of WGs which are acting in good faith and for which implementations conform to social and architectural norms
# [18:05] * Joins: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak)
# [18:06] <slightlyoff> pal: so the goal is to understand
# [18:06] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [18:06] <ddorwin> q+
# [18:06] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [18:06] <slightlyoff> pal: and, based on that, come to some common agreement. If this process is adversarial, the TAG is doing it wrong
# [18:06] <timeless> paulc: markw 's suggestion was to develop criteria for whether you use a secured origin or not
# [18:06] <timeless> markw: booked on spectrum
# [18:06] <joesteele> Here is a related email -- but not distilled well -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0092.html
# [18:06] <timeless> ... if you had a unique, non-clearable-id, in EME messages in the clear, and sent in the clear
# [18:07] <timeless> ... if that was allowed at all, that definitely need to be restricted to secure origin
# [18:07] <timeless> ... then there's stuff which are encrypted already
# [18:07] <joesteele> q+
# [18:07] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [18:07] <timeless> ... for that, i think http: is reasonable
# [18:07] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [18:07] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [18:07] <timeless> ddorwin: might be disagreement of if that's reasonable
# [18:07] <timeless> ... 2 aspects
# [18:07] <timeless> ... 1. privacy
# [18:07] * Joins: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
# [18:07] <timeless> ... 2. security
# [18:07] <timeless> ... the former is dealable
# [18:07] <timeless> ... the other is harder
# [18:07] * Joins: IsabelleH (~IsabelleH@public.cloak)
# [18:08] <timeless> ... stuff that could be scrubbed
# [18:08] <timeless> ... always security until there's no robustness
# [18:08] <markw> s/stuff which are encrypted already/stuff which are encrypted already, per-origin, clearable/
# [18:08] <timeless> ... up to UAs on what they're willing to deal w/
# [18:08] <timeless> ... until w/ move to TLS
# [18:08] <timeless> ... then UAs
# [18:08] <timeless> ... if you provide options, the option will be "no", because they won't get Netflix
# [18:08] <timeless> ... platform segmentation, or no security/privacy
# [18:08] <timeless> ... even if someone has an unclearable ID in TV
# [18:09] * Quits: wooglae1 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:09] <timeless> ... think they should use https: they add that, try to use it
# [18:09] <timeless> ... netflix doesn't work, they remove it
# [18:09] <timeless> ... it goes over the wire
# [18:09] <markw> q+
# [18:09] * Zakim sees joesteele, markw on the speaker queue
# [18:09] <timeless> ... privacy, no-clearable-id
# [18:09] <timeless> ... security aspects are hard to define
# [18:09] <timeless> ... Venues proposed requiring sandboxing
# [18:09] <timeless> ... no normative ways to address security concerns
# [18:09] <timeless> ... this is an issue for...
# [18:10] <timeless> ... generally effort is to require TLS for powerful APIs
# [18:10] <timeless> ... what we know in historical implementations
# [18:10] <timeless> ... today ones
# [18:10] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [18:10] <timeless> ... those are Exceptional vs. anything else that can be implemented in OSS
# [18:10] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [18:10] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [18:10] <timeless> joesteele: there's at least the bones of a proposal
# [18:10] <pal> q+
# [18:10] * Zakim sees markw, pal on the speaker queue
# [18:10] <timeless> ... origin specific id, so leaking it isn't a risk
# [18:10] <glenn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332#c123
# [18:10] <timeless> ... sandbox, normatively spec what it looks like
# [18:11] <glenn> see above for proposal by Henri
# [18:11] <timeless> ... proposal, what if we added a normative requirement to the spec
# [18:11] <timeless> ... that a CDM
# [18:11] <timeless> ... operating in UA
# [18:11] <timeless> ... that there need to be a Security Review (possibly source level)
# [18:11] <timeless> ... of the CDM
# [18:11] <slightlyoff> q+
# [18:11] * Zakim sees markw, pal, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [18:11] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:11] <slightlyoff> it seems likely to me that there's a composition problem; e.g., what's allowed in an iframe?
# [18:11] <timeless> ... that be available to Browser Vendor
# [18:12] <timeless> ... that's the one who has to make the security+privacy
# [18:12] <timeless> ... the browser can do whatever they want
# [18:12] <timeless> ... if the browser vendor isn't able to inspect CDM properly
# [18:12] <timeless> ... then there's a problem (possibly third party binary)
# [18:12] <timeless> ... concern for larger community
# [18:12] <ddorwin> slightlyoff: Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but yes, we probably need to check the full set of frames
# [18:12] <timeless> ... i want to remove that concern
# [18:12] <timeless> ... Adobe would be ok w/ that requirement
# [18:12] <timeless> ack markw
# [18:12] * Zakim sees pal, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [18:12] <glenn> another proposal by Anne https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332#c125
# [18:12] <ddorwin> the current text checks just the document that contains the MediaKeys
# [18:12] <timeless> markw: i think what joesteele suggested would be a great improvement
# [18:13] <timeless> ... i'd like to hear if that would be acceptable of the other CDM vendors
# [18:13] * Quits: JonathanJ3 (~JonathanJ3@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:13] <timeless> ... hsivonen points out that https: doesn't solve that
# [18:13] <timeless> ... if people wants to poke holes in CDMs, they can get a publicly trusted Cert and poke
# [18:13] <slightlyoff> q-
# [18:13] * Zakim sees pal on the speaker queue
# [18:13] <timeless> ... we can ensure methods are validated
# [18:13] <timeless> ... work on what sandboxing means
# [18:13] <timeless> ... privileges no greater than those of renders
# [18:13] <timeless> ... we need to do work, but there's a way forward
# [18:13] <ddorwin> HTTPS prevents injection (even of other HTTPS origins)
# [18:13] <timeless> ack pal
# [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:14] <timeless> pal: i want to address markw
# [18:14] <joesteele> just to be clear the Security Review would need to cover both security and privacy concerns
# [18:14] <timeless> ... you can specify guidelines that lead to the right privacy/security attributes
# [18:14] <jdsmith> q+
# [18:14] * Zakim sees jdsmith on the speaker queue
# [18:14] <timeless> ... you can normatively specify attributes leading to the right requirements
# [18:14] <markw> @ddorwin: Henri explains it better than me, but it's not hard to an attacker to trick people into visiting their HTTPS site
# [18:14] <timeless> ddorwin: i'd welcome those requirements
# [18:14] <timeless> ... i don't know them
# [18:14] <timeless> ... the problem is that the issue we have is robustness
# [18:15] <timeless> ... and robustness is out of scope
# [18:15] <timeless> ... normatively securing them would probably break most impls
# [18:15] * Quits: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:15] <timeless> pal: that's true for any technology integrated by UA vendor
# [18:15] <markw> q+
# [18:15] * Zakim sees jdsmith, markw on the speaker queue
# [18:15] <timeless> ... UA has to do due-diligence to ensure technology isn't nefarious
# [18:15] <timeless> ... video driver could be nefarious
# [18:15] <timeless> ack jdsmith
# [18:15] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [18:15] <timeless> jdsmith: in favor of Defense in Depth
# [18:16] <timeless> ... counter measure to ID
# [18:16] <timeless> ... may be difficult to anticipate all gaps
# [18:16] <timeless> ... but applying https: on the connection itself is more likely to be secure
# [18:16] <timeless> ... question is how secure do we want to be
# [18:16] * Travis needs to run. Waves at the room. See you all next time!
# [18:16] * Travis darobin: I've got a test suite update coming for you soon.
# [18:16] <timeless> ... do what joesteele proposed
# [18:16] <timeless> ... some potential that https: could add additional protection
# [18:16] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:16] <timeless> ... over time, we should be trying to migrate our implementations toward
# [18:17] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [18:17] <timeless> paulc: didn't annevk suggest that in a bug comments?
# [18:17] <ddorwin> q+
# [18:17] * Zakim sees markw, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <timeless> ... ok to use today, but at some point in the future, a clock clicks
# [18:17] <timeless> ... and in order to conform you'd need to use https
# [18:17] <joesteele> q+
# [18:17] * Zakim sees markw, ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <timeless> ack markw
# [18:17] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <timeless> markw: absolutely
# [18:17] <timeless> ... perfectly reasonable to discuss how that migration would happen over time
# [18:17] <timeless> ... one to have gradual migration switching over one-by-one
# [18:17] <timeless> ... frog doesn't notice water is getting warmer, problem is solved
# [18:18] <timeless> ... but migrating 10s of percent, video is US peak 50% of traffic
# [18:18] <timeless> ... can't happen overnight
# [18:18] <timeless> ... involves 10s of ISPs
# [18:18] <timeless> ... slight economic problem
# [18:18] <timeless> ... from browser's perspective, you've solved problems for all sites
# [18:18] <joesteele> ISPs and CDNs are involved
# [18:18] <timeless> ... but for a single site that's already solved it
# [18:18] <timeless> ... it's marginal benefit
# [18:18] <slightlyoff> q+
# [18:18] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [18:19] <timeless> ... difference of who benefits, who pays
# [18:19] <timeless> ... needs some coordination
# [18:19] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [18:19] * Zakim sees joesteele, slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [18:19] <timeless> ddorwin: web in general is moving to secure origins
# [18:19] <timeless> ... that may happen w/in impls before any date we set
# [18:19] <timeless> ... not just in EME
# [18:19] <timeless> ... even though Geolocation and getUserMedia have shipped
# [18:19] <timeless> ... browsers will flip over
# [18:19] <timeless> ... sites need to adapt
# [18:19] <timeless> ... Domenic mentioned this
# [18:19] <timeless> ... annevk has a proposal w/ messages
# [18:20] <timeless> ... get security, while allowing sites to adapt
# [18:20] <timeless> ... markw mentioned 30-50% server hit
# [18:20] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:20] <timeless> ... that's not for all/most servers
# [18:20] <timeless> ... they've done a job of optimizing things
# [18:20] <timeless> ... we're not seeing nearly that
# [18:20] <timeless> ... i'm trying to get numbers released
# [18:20] <timeless> ... we're serving video traffic over https:, not un-doable
# [18:20] <timeless> ... things that need to happen
# [18:20] <timeless> ... let's try to solve those
# [18:20] <timeless> ... netflix can help lead the way there, we (google) would be happy to help
# [18:20] <pal> q+
# [18:20] * Zakim sees joesteele, slightlyoff, pal on the speaker queue
# [18:21] <timeless> ... saying we can't do anything will help us
# [18:21] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [18:21] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, pal on the speaker queue
# [18:21] * Quits: emu_ (~emu@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [18:21] <timeless> joesteele: Adobe is generally in favor of moving the web towards more security
# [18:21] <timeless> ... not owning browsers ourselves, we'd like public by-when-date
# [18:21] <timeless> ... that would be useful from the viewpoint of talking to our customers
# [18:21] <pal> q-
# [18:21] * Zakim sees slightlyoff on the speaker queue
# [18:21] <timeless> ... to say "by-the-way, we won't be able to support your http server by XXXX"
# [18:22] <timeless> paulc: HTTP-BIZ in IETF had the opportunity to make https: mandatory
# [18:22] <markw> q+
# [18:22] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, markw on the speaker queue
# [18:22] <timeless> ... they chose not to
# [18:22] <Yves> s/biz/bis
# [18:22] <wseltzer> q+
# [18:22] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, markw, wseltzer on the speaker queue
# [18:22] <timeless> ... IETF to me, from a distance
# [18:22] <timeless> s/BIZ/BIS/
# [18:22] <timeless> ... chose not to, which seems like it isn't the time
# [18:22] <timeless> s|s/biz/bis|
# [18:22] <timeless> ... statement that it's going to happen wholesale
# [18:22] <timeless> ... why didn't it happen in HTTP-BIS?
# [18:22] <timeless> ... i wish i had mark here
# [18:22] * Quits: edoyle (~edoyle@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:23] <timeless> slightlyoff: game theory works against anybody but a particularly motivated vendor
# [18:23] <MarkVickers_> q+
# [18:23] * Zakim sees slightlyoff, markw, wseltzer, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
# [18:23] <timeless> ... we'll pay a large price from a Chrome perspective when we try to move users away from http:
# [18:23] <timeless> ... because users will be unhappy
# [18:23] * Quits: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:23] <timeless> ... it's a cost w/ low return in the short run
# [18:23] <timeless> ... i'm sympathetic to markw 's concerns
# [18:23] <timeless> ... maybe if we could identify privacy concerns
# [18:23] <timeless> ... content is encrypted
# [18:24] <timeless> ... parent page over https: isn't a concern
# [18:24] * Quits: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:24] <timeless> ... serving media itself will cost large amounts of money
# [18:24] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [18:24] * yosuke s/mark here/mark (mnot) here/
# [18:24] <timeless> ... can we discuss what mixed-content means in this scenario
# [18:24] <timeless> ... discuss goals in privacy design
# [18:24] <timeless> ack slightlyoff
# [18:24] * Zakim sees markw, wseltzer, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <timeless> ack mark
# [18:24] * Zakim sees markw, wseltzer on the speaker queue
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# [18:24] * timeless @$@$@
# [18:24] <timeless> markw: i agree w/ that
# [18:24] <timeless> q+ MarkVickers_
# [18:24] * Zakim sees markw, wseltzer, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <timeless> ... serving parent page over https, we'd love to
# [18:25] <timeless> ... but then the media would have to come over https
# [18:25] <timeless> ack markw
# [18:25] * Zakim sees wseltzer, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
# [18:25] <timeless> ack wseltzer
# [18:25] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
# [18:25] <timeless> wseltzer: Wendy Seltzer, W3C
# [18:25] <timeless> ... hearing about secure-origin discussion in several different groups
# [18:25] <timeless> ... concern
# [18:25] * Domenic brb
# [18:25] <timeless> ... particular threat model that i've heard most compelling
# [18:25] <timeless> ... connecting to an un-authenticated-origin
# [18:25] <timeless> ... and permitting active-content
# [18:25] <timeless> ... that's MITM'd
# [18:26] <timeless> ... allowing it to run content
# [18:26] <timeless> ... exposing client to risk from who knows where
# [18:26] <timeless> ... running on your network connection
# [18:26] <timeless> ... threat model that
# [18:26] <timeless> ... as W3C, looking to work w/ TAG, and Security Group
# [18:26] <timeless> ... to more broadly address it
# [18:26] <timeless> ... not just spec by spec basis
# [18:26] <timeless> ... unfortunately, discussion is just beginning
# [18:26] <timeless> ... when it came up earlier in WebAppSec
# [18:27] <timeless> ... i hope we can bring together the people to think wholistically on how to improve ecosystem
# [18:27] <timeless> ack MarkVickers_
# [18:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:27] <timeless> MarkVickers_: two things
# [18:27] <timeless> Zakim, close the queue
# [18:27] <Zakim> ok, timeless, the speaker queue is closed
# [18:27] <timeless> ... I want to support adding things that mandate end-to-end security
# [18:27] <timeless> ... nothing wrong w/ when we plan to move to https
# [18:27] <timeless> ... we have to do this
# [18:27] <timeless> ... secure PII on the web
# [18:27] <timeless> ... to do that, we do very very detailed investigation of our CDMs/...
# [18:28] <timeless> ... supporting what markw said
# [18:28] <timeless> ... let's get them in there
# [18:28] <timeless> ... regardless of https: or not
# [18:28] <timeless> ... idea that there could be an exception to https: origin property
# [18:28] <timeless> ... problem is video data
# [18:28] <timeless> ... it isn't executable code
# [18:28] <timeless> ... it's already encrypted
# [18:28] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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# [18:28] <timeless> ... massive amount of (50%) Internet bandwidth
# [18:28] * Joins: stone (~emu@public.cloak)
# [18:29] <timeless> ... in general, exceptions to rules are problematic
# [18:29] <timeless> ... it doesn't have privacy problems
# [18:29] <timeless> ... bandwidth-cost issue, if we could make an exception to that
# [18:29] <timeless> ... it'd make things go more quickly
# [18:29] <timeless> q?
# [18:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:29] <ddorwin> Not: Whether the video is already encrypted is irrelevant. It is still observable and fingerprintable
# [18:29] <timeless> paulc: we agreed to break for coffee at 10:30am
# [18:29] <ddorwin> s/Not: /Note: /
# [18:29] <timeless> ... lots of concrete suggestions
# [18:29] <timeless> ... good to put a short summary of suggestions into the bug
# [18:29] <timeless> ... slightlyoff 's suggestion
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# [18:30] <timeless> ... was along the lines of what markw said and what MarkVickers_ supported
# [18:30] <timeless> ... break for Coffee
# [18:30] <timeless> ... and switch over to the top of the bugs
# [18:30] <timeless> [ Coffee break ]
# [18:30] * Quits: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:30] * Domenic back
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# [18:31] * Domenic sounds like the TAG-ey bugs are over with?
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# [18:34] * Domenic taking off; thanks all! Very productive session! Will lurk, so ping me if I can be of help.
# [18:34] <Zakim> -Domenic
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# [18:44] <Zakim> -BobLund
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# [18:48] <MarkVickers_> Regarding drowns note above: I agree that there is privacy value in using HTTPS for encrypted content. I was making a crawl-walk-run argument. We could more quickly move the non-video content to HTTPS as an intermediate stage towards all content over HTTPS.
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# [18:59] * timeless Domenic please call back
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# [18:59] <timeless> Topic: Updates to bugs w/ F2F
# [18:59] <timeless> paulc: editor's suggested a different approach instead of top down
# [18:59] <timeless> ... but they're not ready
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# [19:00] <timeless> Topic: Media TF next F2F
# [19:00] <timeless> paulc: does Media TF need another F2F?
# [19:01] <timeless> ... instead of waiting until next April
# [19:01] <timeless> ... if we spent a whole day somewhere
# [19:01] <timeless> ... maybe longer than one day
# [19:01] <timeless> ... would that get us to the point where
# [19:01] <timeless> ... maybe break down into groups
# [19:01] * Domenic timeless: I unfortunately have an AB+TAG meeting right now; is there something in particular I can help with?
# [19:01] <timeless> ... and get progress
# [19:01] * timeless ddorwin wanted you on for something
# [19:01] * timeless when do you resume
# [19:01] <timeless> jdsmith: it'd be useful
# [19:01] <timeless> pal: do you think it would be useful
# [19:01] <timeless> paulc: if we identified people w/ proposals
# [19:02] <timeless> ... and/or dedicate time to develop on the fly
# [19:02] <joesteele> I think it would be useful
# [19:02] <timeless> pal: exactly
# [19:02] <timeless> ... extremely helpful, going into that discussion
# [19:02] <ddorwin> domenic: That's probably okay. timeless: Thanks.
# [19:02] <timeless> ... if someone made a proposal on each open issue
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# [19:02] <timeless> ddorwin: this has been more productive and last fractured than email
# [19:02] <timeless> ... i'd prefer that as well
# [19:02] <timeless> ... i'm happy w/ a F2F
# [19:03] <timeless> ... one thing for the group, don't wait for milestones
# [19:03] <timeless> ... Tuesday morning is popular for bug updates
# [19:03] <timeless> ... i'd like something more fluid
# [19:03] <timeless> ... we don't need Tuesday morning (or Pacific time)
# [19:03] <timeless> ... but i'd like more continuous involvement
# [19:03] <timeless> paulc: i won't disagree
# [19:03] <timeless> ... i've tried to get people off 6am Pacific bug fixes
# [19:03] <timeless> ... not sure how to push people to do what you wawnt
# [19:04] <timeless> MarkVickers_: i'm for another F2F
# [19:04] <timeless> ... anytime/anyplace
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# [19:04] <timeless> paulc: pal suggested spread them out
# [19:04] <timeless> ... and/or have time to develop proposals on the spot
# [19:04] <timeless> ... problem w/ allocating all morning on a discussion
# [19:04] <timeless> ... 90mins on TAG bugs
# [19:04] <timeless> ... we're still surface level
# [19:04] <timeless> pal: hard for a group to just open a bug and get to a point w/o any prep
# [19:04] <timeless> ... key is to have strawman proposal
# [19:05] <timeless> ... even if it's horribly wrong
# [19:05] <ddorwin> q+
# [19:05] * Zakim whispers to ddorwin that the speaker queue has been closed
# [19:05] * joesteele Hawaii is nice for a F2F :-)
# [19:05] <timeless> paulc: rubys, "the way to find and answer is to say something that's wrong"
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# [19:05] <timeless> Zakim, open the queue
# [19:05] <Zakim> ok, timeless, the speaker queue is open
# [19:05] <timeless> ddorwin: trying to move forward in an iterative approach
# [19:05] <timeless> ... requestMediaKeySystemAccess
# [19:06] <timeless> ... we'll iterate
# [19:06] <timeless> ... i'd like smaller bugs
# [19:06] <timeless> ... yeah, that's a problem, file a bug
# [19:06] <timeless> ... please give me text to add
# [19:06] <markw> q+
# [19:06] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [19:06] <MarkVickers_> q+
# [19:06] * Zakim sees markw, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
# [19:06] <timeless> ... discuss this small issue
# [19:06] <timeless> ... break things down into manageable things
# [19:06] <timeless> ... move forward, even if we have to change
# [19:06] <timeless> pal: some of these bugs are incredibly broad and vague
# [19:06] <timeless> ... in discussion spawn three other issues
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# [19:07] <timeless> paulc: usually in bugzilla
# [19:07] <timeless> ... you have a bug, you file 3 bugs, mark dependencies
# [19:07] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:07] <timeless> ... and close the dependencies, and then revisit and close the original
# [19:07] <timeless> MarkVickers_: what's called for
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# [19:07] <timeless> ... make clear text-change is strawman for "cunningham's law internet"
# [19:07] * Quits: a12u (~androirc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:07] <timeless> ... spec changes for promoting discussion
# [19:07] <timeless> ... spec changes for completing discussion
# [19:07] <joesteele> s/is strawman/as strawman/
# [19:08] <timeless> markw: avoid doing things for obviously controversial
# [19:08] <timeless> ... what would it look like on github?
# [19:08] <timeless> pal: branching
# [19:08] <timeless> ... or proposal in plain text in bugs
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# [19:08] <timeless> ... problem is ddorwin is 99% right
# [19:09] <timeless> ... you have to lower your percentages
# [19:09] <timeless> https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-main/pull/48
# [19:09] <timeless> https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-main/pull/49
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# [19:10] <timeless> paulc: html5 spec after html5 will probably be done in git
# [19:10] <timeless> ... github or similar
# [19:10] <timeless> ... i don't want to drill on that today
# [19:10] <timeless> ... great lunchtime conversation
# [19:10] <timeless> ... jdsmith responded to my list
# [19:11] <timeless> ... pal suggested dealing w/ proposals that are presented
# [19:11] <timeless> i/48/[ Examples of what github can look like ]
# [19:11] <timeless> topic: Bug 26776 Diagnosing and resolving CDM errors needs a numeric systemCode (deleted with MediaKeyError)
# [19:11] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26776
# [19:11] <timeless> paulc: jdsmith will submit a proposal in time for F2F meeting.
# [19:12] <timeless> jdsmith: previously
# [19:12] <timeless> i|pre|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26776#c9 "Bug 26776 comment 9"|
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# [19:12] <timeless> ... looking for key-specific-error-codes
# [19:12] <timeless> ... i know there was a discussion about key-status
# [19:12] <timeless> ... looking for aspect of it
# [19:13] <timeless> ... benefiting from specific error code
# [19:13] <timeless> ... talked to ddorwin about philosophical Q, not discussed as a group
# [19:13] <timeless> ... do we want CDM specific error codes
# [19:13] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [19:13] <timeless> ... or drive to standardized error codes?
# [19:13] * Quits: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:13] <timeless> ... is my proposal reasonable/acceptable to support, or not
# [19:14] <ddorwin> q+
# [19:14] * Zakim sees markw, MarkVickers_, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:14] <timeless> o "acquired",
# [19:14] <timeless> o "expired",
# [19:14] <timeless> o "notyetvalid",
# [19:14] <timeless> o "renewalfailed",
# [19:14] <timeless> o "playbacksexceeded",
# [19:14] <timeless> o "authorizationfailed",
# [19:14] <timeless> o "outputnotallowed",
# [19:14] <timeless> o "downscaling",
# [19:14] <timeless> o "released"
# [19:14] <timeless> jdsmith: adding a specific code
# [19:14] <timeless> ... interested to flesh out the list
# [19:14] <joesteele> q+
# [19:14] * Zakim sees markw, MarkVickers_, ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:14] <timeless> paulc: datatype of "systemcode"
# [19:14] <timeless> jdsmith: it's a number
# [19:15] <timeless> paulc: where does it come form?
# [19:15] <timeless> s/form/from/
# [19:15] <timeless> jdsmith: it's out of band
# [19:15] <timeless> ... you have a range of problems that can occur
# [19:15] <timeless> i|you|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26372 "Bug 26372" - Report issues/events not related to a specific method call|
# [19:16] <timeless> paulc: so, do we want CDM specific error codes
# [19:16] <timeless> ... for debugging?
# [19:16] <timeless> ... for end user?
# [19:16] <timeless> jdsmith: for initial implementation
# [19:16] <timeless> ... they were important for telemetry
# [19:16] <timeless> ddorwin: 2 issues
# [19:16] <timeless> ... 1. how to report this (technical)
# [19:16] <timeless> ... 2. does the platform want to let us expose non-standardized values (TAG feedback)
# [19:16] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:16] <timeless> ... we have to deal w/ this
# [19:17] <timeless> ... 1st isn't worth dealing w/
# [19:17] <timeless> ... developer debuggability is in javascript-console
# [19:17] <ddorwin> ack ddo
# [19:17] * Zakim sees markw, MarkVickers_, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:17] <timeless> s/TAG/annevk/
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# [19:17] <MarkVickers_> q-
# [19:17] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:17] <timeless> ack markw
# [19:17] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:17] <timeless> markw: we should be clear
# [19:17] <timeless> ... if we expose codes like this, they shouldn't drive client script
# [19:18] <timeless> ... if we want to let the script drive actions, that should be standardized
# [19:18] <timeless> ... then there's exposing system specific
# [19:18] <timeless> s/fic/fics/
# [19:18] <timeless> ... that's an antipattern
# [19:18] <timeless> ... but explicit errors from IE etc was really important for us to debug
# [19:18] <ddorwin> Anne's comments: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25896#c5
# [19:18] <timeless> ... errors are specific to CDMs
# [19:18] <timeless> q?
# [19:18] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:18] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [19:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:18] <timeless> joesteele: i'd like to have this
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# [19:19] <timeless> ... system-code-level available for debugging purposes
# [19:19] <timeless> ... sensitive to the issue of not having a common way to use these
# [19:19] <timeless> ... keysystem specific, platform specific
# [19:19] <timeless> ... would it be good enough if this was in javascript console, but not programmatically to the application
# [19:19] <timeless> [ markw shook his head -- no ]
# [19:19] <timeless> paulc: in an open standard like EME
# [19:20] <timeless> ... returning a proprietary specific code is bad
# [19:20] <ddorwin> q+
# [19:20] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:20] <timeless> ... but i can point to IETF specs
# [19:20] <timeless> ... SQL state
# [19:20] <timeless> ... there's an implementation defined range
# [19:20] <ddorwin> I think Paul said ISO
# [19:20] <timeless> s/IETF/ISO/
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# [19:20] <timeless> ... and the SQL spec says "don't ever take action on one of those values"
# [19:20] <timeless> ... ISO standards say that because it's really useful
# [19:20] * Quits: jamesx (~jamesx@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:21] <timeless> ... if you get underflow in a phenomenally complex piece of code, it can be very very useful
# [19:21] <timeless> ... used by developers when they're developing their code
# [19:21] <timeless> ... i'm less worried about implementations exposing beyond the standard
# [19:21] <timeless> ... just paulc's personal opinion
# [19:21] <timeless> ddorwin: argument is that should be the exception message
# [19:21] <timeless> ... not a number
# [19:21] <timeless> ... that's why i wanted TAG to be here
# [19:22] * timeless Domenic
# [19:22] <timeless> ... i wanted declarative text
# [19:22] <timeless> ... is there a way that an application can't do this
# [19:22] <timeless> ... but the server needs to see the error code
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# [19:22] <timeless> paulc: sentiment of the room?
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# [19:22] <timeless> ... straw poll, good facility to have?
# [19:23] <timeless> [ 7 hands -- good ]
# [19:23] <timeless> [ 0 hands for don't ]
# [19:23] <timeless> paulc: jdsmith, make a concrete proposal
# [19:23] <timeless> ... and make sure annevk's aware of your proposal
# [19:23] <ddorwin> and the TAG
# [19:23] <timeless> topic: Bug 26887 Allowing license servers and CDMs to control data persistence and secure release
# [19:23] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26887
# [19:24] <timeless> paulc: Jerry to update proposal based on previous TF discussions.
# [19:24] <timeless> i|Jerry|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26887#c13 "Comment 13" Jerry Smith 2014-10-30 22:32:25 UTC|
# [19:24] <timeless> jdsmith: we had a discussion on a Tuesday call
# [19:25] <timeless> ... i listed feedback in comment 13
# [19:25] <timeless> ... strong input from apps to have influence over data storage
# [19:25] <timeless> ... apps in control over new keys/reuse
# [19:25] <timeless> ... we'd like to
# [19:25] <timeless> ... session-type temp/persistent, we can retain
# [19:25] <timeless> ... instead of app generate request for license w/ init data
# [19:26] <timeless> ... instead let app load local license w/ same info
# [19:26] <timeless> ... not exact
# [19:26] <timeless> ... it gives app control
# [19:26] <timeless> ... relatively transparent way
# [19:26] <timeless> ... they're not obligated to associate media-key-session-ids with the session itself
# [19:26] <timeless> ... there's more to it, and i can let others talk
# [19:26] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:26] <timeless> ... we retained retrieving keys/removing
# [19:26] <timeless> ... we also added remove key methods
# [19:27] <timeless> ddorwin: thanks for taking that feedback, noting it, addressing it
# [19:27] <timeless> ... i like this better than the last one
# [19:27] <timeless> ... i commented on specific apis
# [19:27] <timeless> ... markw addressed... i didn't read through all of his comment
# [19:27] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:28] <timeless> ... markw indicated PlayReady doesn't let you have the whole id
# [19:28] * SteveF_ is now known as SteveF
# [19:28] <timeless> ... might be multiple sessionids
# [19:28] <timeless> ... what happens
# [19:28] <timeless> ... app might want to load specifically one id
# [19:28] <timeless> ... if we have retrieve-by-id, let you get whatever you want from that
# [19:28] <markw> q+
# [19:28] * Zakim sees ddorwin, markw on the speaker queue
# [19:28] <timeless> ... removeallkeys is odd
# [19:28] <timeless> ... removekeybykeyids seemed odd
# [19:28] <joesteele> q+
# [19:28] * Zakim sees ddorwin, markw, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:28] <timeless> ... if a license has multiple key ids, it doesn't make sense
# [19:29] <timeless> ... you can't rip key ids out of licenses
# [19:29] <timeless> ... loading by init data seems fine
# [19:29] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:29] <timeless> ... in a more pure case, you might get session by init id
# [19:29] <timeless> ... but that's putting apps through extra work
# [19:29] <timeless> ... the remove stuff, the way keys are removed is redundant
# [19:29] <timeless> ... or do on sessions
# [19:29] <timeless> ... that you can't play back w/ session id is a problem
# [19:29] <timeless> ... iterate on this
# [19:30] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [19:30] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:30] <timeless> jdsmith: we don't really believe session-id is a good way to map stored keys
# [19:30] <timeless> ... we'd like to get away from using session-id to manage/retrieve keys
# [19:30] <timeless> ... that's why new key management api is proposed
# [19:30] <timeless> ... remove key/session w/ one operation
# [19:30] <timeless> ... session-id is an arbitrary number
# [19:30] <timeless> ... happens to get coordinating messages
# [19:31] <timeless> ... could be multiple messages w/in a key experience
# [19:31] <ddorwin> q+
# [19:31] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:31] <timeless> ... not a great identifier for managing stores
# [19:31] <timeless> ... retained to support Secure-Release UC
# [19:31] <timeless> ddorwin: we're storing something
# [19:31] <timeless> ... to retrieve, you need an index
# [19:31] <timeless> ... ~ IndexedDB, there's an id
# [19:31] <timeless> ... it's odd that if you had 2, you don't know which you'd get back
# [19:32] <timeless> ... index is not unique
# [19:32] <timeless> ... change meaning to clarify
# [19:32] <timeless> ... seems you should retrieve by id
# [19:32] <timeless> ... or people might want to
# [19:32] <timeless> ... more like rental cae
# [19:32] <timeless> s/cae/case/
# [19:32] <timeless> ... want to load things, and want to play it
# [19:32] <timeless> ... change model of EME?
# [19:32] <timeless> q?
# [19:32] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele, ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <ddorwin> acc ddo
# [19:32] <ddorwin> ack ddo
# [19:32] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele on the speaker queue
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# [19:32] <timeless> ack markw
# [19:32] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <timeless> markw: when i looked at this
# [19:32] <timeless> ... and compare it to our existing api
# [19:33] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:33] <timeless> ... you can polyfil it either way
# [19:33] <timeless> ... functionally it's not very different
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# [19:33] <timeless> ... they might look different, but they might be the same
# [19:33] <timeless> ... trouble deciding which is better
# [19:33] <timeless> ... no really strong reason for choosing one/other
# [19:33] <timeless> ... need to look for underlying principle
# [19:33] <timeless> ... polyfill just has a mapping
# [19:33] <timeless> ... doesn't need to be in a secure boundary
# [19:33] <timeless> ... could be in js
# [19:34] <timeless> ... perhaps, pull out keyRelease
# [19:34] <timeless> ... atm, we're overloading session-id thing
# [19:34] <timeless> ... from original approach to not define keyRelease
# [19:34] <timeless> ... now we seem to be moving toward explicit definitions
# [19:34] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [19:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:34] <timeless> joesteele: specific example
# [19:34] <timeless> ... putting aside keyReleae
# [19:34] <timeless> ... just talking about load
# [19:34] <timeless> ... spec talks about proprietary PSSHs
# [19:34] <timeless> s/keyReleae/keyRelease/
# [19:35] <timeless> ... only way it can do this is via loadSession
# [19:35] <timeless> ... even if app stores all sessions it had previously acquired keys for
# [19:35] <timeless> ... app can't decide which session introduced the keys
# [19:35] <ddorwin> q+
# [19:35] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:35] <timeless> ... w/o being able to parse RRR
# [19:35] <timeless> ... blob is not key system specific
# [19:35] <timeless> ... it can be passed down for playing offline content in a general way
# [19:36] <timeless> ... this lets app avoid trying to load a lot of sessions and trying each to see if it can play the content
# [19:36] <timeless> ... session-id for us doesn't make sense for us
# [19:36] <timeless> ... we don't manage content
# [19:36] <timeless> ... we could make a shim, as markw suggested
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# [19:36] <timeless> ... to make an offline content player, i couldn't do it today
# [19:36] <timeless> ... very difficult
# [19:36] <timeless> q?
# [19:36] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:36] * timeless joesteele RRR ??
# [19:36] <MarkVickers_> q+
# [19:36] * Zakim sees ddorwin, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
# [19:36] <timeless> paulc: you could do it w/ jdsmith 's proposal
# [19:36] <timeless> joesteele: specific piece from jdsmith 's proposal that's helpful is load()
# [19:37] <timeless> ... and clean way
# [19:37] <timeless> ... if i'm offline, unclear what loadSession
# [19:37] <timeless> ... can app assume no key request?
# [19:37] * Joins: tH (~Rob@public.cloak)
# [19:37] <timeless> ... in load() we could say, only load from keys we have, don't make key requests
# [19:37] <timeless> q?
# [19:37] * Zakim sees ddorwin, MarkVickers_ on the speaker queue
# [19:37] <markw> q+
# [19:37] * Zakim sees ddorwin, MarkVickers_, markw on the speaker queue
# [19:37] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [19:37] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_, markw on the speaker queue
# [19:37] <timeless> ddorwin: CDM needs to know what load() is intended to do
# [19:37] <timeless> ... alg currently lets it send messages
# [19:37] <timeless> ... whether it does anything w/ that, who knows
# [19:38] <timeless> ... you can load things while on line
# [19:38] <timeless> ... playlimits
# [19:38] <timeless> ... if you want an "i'm offline boolean"
# [19:38] <ddorwin> I don't agree that the application does not know which session ID is associated with specific content.
# [19:38] <timeless> ... you'd probably be ignored
# [19:38] <timeless> ... i don't agree app doesn't know which session-id's
# [19:38] <timeless> ... if you downloaded a movie, either got a manifest w/ init data
# [19:38] <timeless> ... either got need-key or similar events
# [19:38] <timeless> ... if it's aware of sessions, i don't see why it doesn't know session-ids
# [19:39] <timeless> ... apps might not want to track that, just want to play
# [19:39] <ddorwin> If we are going to remove load-by-ID, I think it should be a separate bug.
# [19:39] <timeless> ... markw 's right, it seems you could polyfill both of these
# [19:39] <timeless> ... apps might want to do by id
# [19:39] <timeless> ... If we are going to remove load-by-ID, I think it should be a separate bug.
# [19:39] <joesteele> s/RRR/the KeySystem specific initData/
# [19:39] <timeless> ... verify w/ people that they don't need that functionality
# [19:39] <timeless> ... jdsmith added load-by-data, that i don't quite understand
# [19:39] <timeless> ... may be specific features we want to talk about
# [19:39] <timeless> q?
# [19:39] * Zakim sees MarkVickers_, markw on the speaker queue
# [19:39] <timeless> ack MarkVickers_
# [19:39] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [19:40] <timeless> MarkVickers_: two styles of interface
# [19:40] <ddorwin> s/load-by-ID/load-and-use-to-play-by-ID/
# [19:40] <timeless> ... at least two CDMs would prefer one way, i think that's a natural way to go that way
# [19:40] <timeless> ... all things otherwise equal
# [19:40] <timeless> ... i'd favor that, it seems there's agreement
# [19:40] <timeless> ... i'd favor UC joesteele 's offering on offline
# [19:40] <joesteele> q+
# [19:40] * Zakim sees markw, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:40] <timeless> ... i think this is resolved
# [19:40] <timeless> ddorwin: want to remind people that authors have a higher constituency concern than implementers
# [19:40] <timeless> ... know what authors want
# [19:41] <timeless> ack markw
# [19:41] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:41] <timeless> markw: joesteele gave an example of a UC
# [19:41] <timeless> ... that he couldn't do
# [19:41] <timeless> ... you can store map of init to session-id
# [19:41] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:41] <timeless> ... in IndexedDB
# [19:41] <timeless> ... you can polyfill
# [19:41] <timeless> ... it's hard to distinguish
# [19:41] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [19:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:41] <timeless> joesteele: a bit of confusion
# [19:41] <timeless> ... when i say the app doesn't know which keys are required
# [19:41] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
# [19:41] <timeless> ... not init-data to session-id
# [19:41] <timeless> ... application given that it could be operating on a number of key systems
# [19:42] <timeless> ... it doesn't know which keys were delivered in a given session
# [19:42] <timeless> ... load session could provide a number of keys at once
# [19:42] <ddorwin> q+
# [19:42] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:42] <timeless> ... but the app doesn't know which particular id
# [19:42] <timeless> ... if i can load by init data that i have
# [19:42] <timeless> ... i know that's supposed to result in a key
# [19:42] <timeless> ... it's a backwards mapping
# [19:42] <timeless> ... init-data i know will cause key to be satisfied
# [19:42] <timeless> ... i'm working through the argument
# [19:42] * Joins: song_ (~song@public.cloak)
# [19:43] <timeless> ... i could scan through all the ones i've mapped
# [19:43] <ddorwin> We don't load by key; we load by session (i.e. license). The application could store a list of session(s) it has for the title.
# [19:43] <timeless> ... and assuming it matches exactly, then it will work
# [19:43] <timeless> ... but it's a proprietary format, an exact match may not be possible
# [19:43] <timeless> q?
# [19:43] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:43] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [19:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:43] <timeless> ddorwin: are you assuming your application doesn't know what it's plaing
# [19:43] <timeless> s/ing/ying/
# [19:43] <timeless> ... or what it played previously
# [19:43] <timeless> ... you got an encrypted event, now you're trying to find a license
# [19:43] <MarkVickers_> I agree with David that we must prioritize application needs over implementation needs, what I said is that if either style of API is neutral for applications, then implementation preferences should be considered
# [19:43] <timeless> joesteele: i have streams A, and streams B
# [19:44] * Quits: song (~song@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:44] <timeless> ... i play A, and then get a key that lets me play A+B
# [19:44] <timeless> ... i can do loadkey
# [19:44] <timeless> ... i have to do an exact match
# [19:44] <timeless> ... it may fail
# [19:44] <timeless> ddorwin: not the model i've thought about
# [19:44] <timeless> ... i want to play Wizard of Oz
# [19:44] <timeless> ... i have it, metadata of it
# [19:44] <timeless> ... one requires one session, or a list
# [19:44] <timeless> ... user clicks play, puts media in
# [19:45] <timeless> ... calls load session
# [19:45] <timeless> ... handle encrypted
# [19:45] <timeless> ... or request session, preemptively loading
# [19:45] <timeless> ... that's the model i'm thinking of
# [19:45] <timeless> ... yes weird things w/ PSSHs
# [19:45] <timeless> ... not thought of that
# [19:45] <timeless> ... not clear to me, esp w/ proprietary PSSHs
# [19:45] <timeless> ... that even CDM knows
# [19:45] <timeless> ... PSSH doesn't need to have all the keys
# [19:45] <timeless> ... servers know
# [19:45] <timeless> ... potentially a flawed design
# [19:45] * Quits: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:45] <timeless> ... --- what can you do
# [19:46] <timeless> ... if you're trying to load
# [19:46] <timeless> ... --- very different
# [19:46] <timeless> ... i want to parse init data, figure out which keys it needs, and try to find them
# [19:46] <timeless> ... different from retrieval by init data
# [19:46] <timeless> ... i think if we don't do that, we have other issues
# [19:46] <timeless> q?
# [19:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:46] <timeless> paulc: next steps?
# [19:46] <timeless> ... beauty context?
# [19:46] <ddorwin> q+
# [19:46] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:46] <timeless> ... markw suggested that
# [19:46] <timeless> s/ext/est/
# [19:47] <timeless> jdsmith: reloading license w/o cross mapping
# [19:47] <timeless> ... hadn't thought that init data might not be unique/match particular content
# [19:47] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [19:47] <joesteele> I am happy to support both models -- but if we only support one -- the initData model is more flexible
# [19:47] <timeless> ... heard ddorwin that reloading based on session should be in a different bug
# [19:47] <timeless> ... didn't hear loading local licenses by init data
# [19:47] <timeless> ... as problematic
# [19:47] * Joins: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak)
# [19:47] <timeless> paulc: you heard support on that
# [19:47] <ddorwin> I'd argue the initData model is less exact and more difficult to reason about
# [19:48] <timeless> ... refactoring so that's done in this, or another
# [19:48] <joesteele> we can add a separate bug for the "I am offline" issue
# [19:48] <timeless> ddorwin: every time initData comes up, there are holes
# [19:48] <timeless> ... always problem we have
# [19:48] <joesteele> q+
# [19:48] * Zakim sees ddorwin, joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:48] <timeless> ... a) why I support session-id
# [19:48] <timeless> ... why we should solve corner cases
# [19:48] <timeless> ... i recognize app doesn't want to store in indexedDB, just want to play it
# [19:49] <timeless> ... in those cases, the load you proposed makes sense
# [19:49] <timeless> ... yes broad support, still concerns
# [19:49] <timeless> ack ddorwin
# [19:49] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:49] <timeless> q- joesteele
# [19:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:49] <timeless> topic: Bug 24082 Several issues discussed in the TF point to the need for defined extensibility points in EME
# [19:49] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24082
# [19:49] <ddorwin> also, you can map imprecise on top of precise but not vice versa
# [19:49] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [19:49] <timeless> paulc: Jerry is to discuss this item with Adrian.
# [19:49] <timeless> s/MarkVickers_/MarkVickers/G
# [19:50] <timeless> jdsmith: this bug
# [19:50] * Joins: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak)
# [19:50] <timeless> i|bug|-> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24082#c14 "Comment 14" Jerry Smith 2014-10-31 15:21:33 UTC|
# [19:50] <timeless> ... currently WONTFIX
# [19:50] <timeless> ... websites might try to do extensions on top of EME
# [19:50] <timeless> ... we had a mechanism createCDMdata
# [19:50] * timeless ??
# [19:50] * MarkVickers_ is now known as MarkVickers
# [19:50] <joesteele> q+
# [19:50] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [19:50] <timeless> ... to allow passing license data back to license server
# [19:51] <ddorwin> It's an interoperable problem and layering problem.
# [19:51] <timeless> ... viewed as an opportunity for interoperability problem
# [19:51] <timeless> ... haven't made a conscious choice to lock down
# [19:51] <timeless> ... so there are no viable ways to extend it
# [19:51] * Quits: nsakai (~nsakai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:51] <timeless> ... so if they want to work around, it isn't support by us
# [19:51] <timeless> ... or try to offer a constrained mechanism
# [19:52] <timeless> ... so we could deprecate a specific thing and close the extension mechanism
# [19:52] <timeless> ... if done in an unspecified way, we won't have that ability
# [19:52] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [19:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:52] <timeless> joesteele: apologize for reopening
# [19:53] <ddorwin> If you extend an API, you run the risk that you will be broken in the future. More incentive not to extend.
# [19:53] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [19:53] <timeless> ... it raises a concern to me, as jdsmith was saying
# [19:53] <timeless> ... even if we support all UCs as defined now
# [19:53] <ddorwin> q+
# [19:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [19:53] <timeless> ... there may be new UCs that require extension points
# [19:53] <timeless> scribe: joesteele
# [19:53] <adrianba> q+
# [19:53] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:53] <joesteele> paulc: we would come back after CR
# [19:53] <joesteele> ddorwin: it will be hard to get through CR with a void* that is what we want
# [19:54] <joesteele> ... we have identified a few of these issue
# [19:54] <timeless> s/what we/do what you/
# [19:54] <joesteele> ... we should either do them or branch
# [19:54] <joesteele> ... we want to make sure these things are defined -- know what they look like
# [19:54] <joesteele> ... domains is an example
# [19:55] <joesteele> ... impossible to know how folks are going to do it now
# [19:55] <joesteele> ... there are specific points where if you want to ask for afeature you can
# [19:55] <joesteele> ... explicitily defining key release is an example markw mentioned
# [19:55] <joesteele> ... identifying these would allow us to move forward
# [19:55] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:55] <joesteele> ... but would prefer not to have a blanket statement like "add your stuff here"
# [19:56] <joesteele> paulc: we will close the bug
# [19:56] <timeless> s/close/leave/
# [19:56] * Quits: rkawada (~rkawada@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.91 [SeaMonkey 2.30/20141013232806]")
# [19:56] <timeless> s/bug/bug closed/
# [19:56] <joesteele> paulc: those were the 3 I had in my list for you Jerry
# [19:56] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:56] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
# [19:56] <joesteele> ... any other bugs nominated to bring to the top of the list?
# [19:56] <joesteele> ... did not see any others where an explcit action since the 29th
# [19:57] <joesteele> ddorwin: item #24
# [19:57] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [19:57] <joesteele> paulc: these came in after Oct 19th
# [19:57] <timeless> topic: Bug 27111 - Separate "persistent" session type into persistent license and presistent key release
# [19:57] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27111
# [19:57] <timeless> s/timeless/scribe/
# [19:57] <joesteele> ddorwin: markw alluded to this
# [19:57] <joesteele> ... tried to have persistent sessions handle anything storage related
# [19:57] <joesteele> ... for simplicity, issue like persistent and temporary
# [19:58] <joesteele> ... and defining behavior
# [19:58] <markw> q+
# [19:58] * Zakim sees ddorwin, adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <joesteele> ... this bug is mainly cosmetic, but addresses some of the confusion
# [19:58] <joesteele> ... for persistent licenses which is ambiguous now
# [19:58] <joesteele> ack ddorwin
# [19:58] * Zakim sees adrianba, markw on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <joesteele> ... some implementations might do key requests -- would be better to be explicit
# [19:59] <joesteele> ... AFAIK we don't have anything that are are diffeent type of license (other than domain keys)
# [19:59] <adrianba> q-
# [19:59] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [19:59] <joesteele> ack adrianba
# [19:59] * Zakim sees markw on the speaker queue
# [19:59] <timeless> s/diffeent/different/
# [19:59] <joesteele> ack markw
# [19:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:59] <joesteele> markw: how do people think we should deal with key release?
# [19:59] <joesteele> .... sessions were the only way of dealing with key release
# [19:59] <timeless> s/..../.../
# [19:59] <joesteele> ... issue with no closing sessions gracefully
# [20:00] <joesteele> ... should we really be using sessions for that?
# [20:00] <joesteele> ... should we have a getKeyRelease()
# [20:00] * Quits: Ruinan (~Ruinan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:00] <joesteele> ddorwin:
# [20:00] <joesteele> ... would be more specific
# [20:00] <joesteele> ddorwin: who or what would we be firing messages at
# [20:00] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [20:00] <joesteele> ... I would say loadReleasedSession or something like that
# [20:01] * Quits: aizu (~aizu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:01] <joesteele> .... I would rather have an iterator model
# [20:01] <timeless> s/trackbot, start meeting//
# [20:01] <joesteele> ... there is an ascpect to removing the session
# [20:01] <joesteele> ... no matter how you get the session, it is valuable to have it
# [20:01] <timeless> q?
# [20:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:01] <joesteele> paulc: you said might be cosmetic
# [20:01] <joesteele> ... other key types in the taxonomy
# [20:02] <joesteele> ... ?
# [20:02] <timeless> s/item #24//
# [20:02] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [20:02] <joesteele> markw: persistence in the session question -- is it assumed that you are asking about both the key release and the keys in the session
# [20:02] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:02] <joesteele> ddorwin: I think we asked that -- does that really exist?
# [20:02] <joesteele> q+
# [20:03] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [20:03] <joesteele> ... generally it can expire - think you want key release with an offline license
# [20:03] <joesteele> ... our implementation would do different things
# [20:03] * Quits: BillHofmann (~BillHofmann@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [20:03] <joesteele> ... persistent licenses is a superset
# [20:03] <joesteele> q?
# [20:03] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [20:03] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [20:03] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [20:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:04] <timeless> joesteele: i don't know if i'll be able to prove you wrong
# [20:04] <timeless> ... for key release
# [20:04] <timeless> ... the specific thing in this case
# [20:04] <timeless> ... in all the cases that i've seen key release used
# [20:04] <timeless> ... it's about (con?)current session counting on the server
# [20:04] * Quits: Youngsun_Ryu (~Youngsun_Ryu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:04] <timeless> ... i don't think every server wants a notification about key-release
# [20:04] <timeless> ... we could require that
# [20:04] <timeless> ... i think some servers would drop it on the floor
# [20:05] <timeless> ddorwin: what functionality are they using?
# [20:05] <timeless> joesteele: they're saying; the local application is flushing the keystore
# [20:05] * Joins: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak)
# [20:05] <timeless> ... they're trusting the app to do the proper thing
# [20:05] <timeless> ddorwin: you can still load a session and release its keys
# [20:05] <timeless> ... key release is an online streaming license
# [20:05] <timeless> ... with persistance
# [20:05] <timeless> ... you want to retrieve the receipt later
# [20:05] <timeless> joesteele: multiple UCs?
# [20:06] <timeless> ... some use offline licenses and don't care about the message to the server
# [20:06] <timeless> ... i don't care in this fight
# [20:06] <timeless> ... server could drop it on the floor
# [20:06] <timeless> ddorwin: offline + don't care what happens
# [20:06] <timeless> ... fine to ignore
# [20:06] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
# [20:06] <timeless> ... but we were thinking offline would have an ack
# [20:06] <timeless> ... UCs where it is necessary (rentals)
# [20:06] <timeless> ... we can avoid these things, solve interop
# [20:06] <timeless> ... a) app could have trouble w/ that behavior
# [20:07] <timeless> ... i guess, app doesn't care, it could do that
# [20:07] <timeless> ... risk of malware, inject "delete all licenses"
# [20:07] <timeless> ... we should talk about that, my vision of offline was there was always a receipt
# [20:07] <timeless> ... CDM would not know to delete license/receipt
# [20:07] <timeless> ... talk about that, separate issue
# [20:07] <timeless> scribe: joesteele
# [20:07] <joesteele> ... ?
# [20:07] <joesteele> paulc: so what is the next step
# [20:07] <joesteele> ddorwin: do folks think this is a step forward?
# [20:08] <joesteele> ... joesteele just said that there arepotentially other models for this
# [20:08] <joesteele> paulc: any objections?
# [20:08] <joesteele> ... no -- then you can go ahead
# [20:08] <joesteele> paulc: should we go to the top of the list?
# [20:08] * timeless http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Oct/0101.html
# [20:09] <joesteele> s/arepotentially/are potentially/
# [20:09] <timeless> topic: Bug 26738 Add entry for MPEG-2 TS CENC to the Stream Format Registry
# [20:09] <timeless> scribe:
# [20:09] <timeless> s/scribe:/scribe: timeless/
# [20:09] <timeless> paulc: blocked w/ boblund (not here)
# [20:10] <timeless> topic: Bug 26372 Report issues/events not related to a specific method call
# [20:10] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26372
# [20:10] <timeless> ddorwin: i'm going to implement something like we agreed, and iterate
# [20:10] * Quits: jerome_ (~jerome@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:10] <timeless> ... it's going to look "maplike"
# [20:10] <timeless> topic: Bug 26811 Separate definitions of Initialization Data Types from Stream Format parsing
# [20:10] <timeless> paulc: lower priority
# [20:10] <timeless> ... it blocks Bug 26738
# [20:11] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [20:11] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
# [20:11] <timeless> ... can you raise priority
# [20:11] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:11] <timeless> ddorwin: i want to do 26372 first
# [20:11] <timeless> topic: Bug 26573 Prepare for Last Call
# [20:11] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26573
# [20:11] <timeless> ddorwin: questions around references
# [20:11] <timeless> paulc: plh?
# [20:11] <timeless> ... i can't hit him
# [20:12] <timeless> ... ddorwin was asking current best normative reference to WebIDL
# [20:12] <timeless> ... MikeSmith ?
# [20:12] <timeless> darobin: "reference it and say don't implement bindings"
# [20:12] <timeless> ddorwin: we're adding things added to the living standard version last week
# [20:12] <timeless> ... but the URL is /TR/ (old)
# [20:12] <timeless> pal: update TR
# [20:13] <timeless> paulc: darobin, advice here?
# [20:13] <timeless> darobin: nope
# [20:13] <timeless> ... we could try to get WebApps to update /TR/
# [20:13] <timeless> paulc: action on me
# [20:13] <timeless> ... i sent plh an email
# [20:13] <timeless> ... i
# [20:13] <timeless> s/i/i'll give you feedback/
# [20:13] <timeless> topic: Bug 24771 Provide guidance on object and CDM lifetime (including when events are guaranteed to be fired)
# [20:14] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24771
# [20:14] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:14] <timeless> ddorwin: i added new objects -- MediaKeyAccess
# [20:14] * Quits: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:14] <timeless> paulc: this needs to be expanded?
# [20:14] <timeless> ddorwin: yes, but it isn't affecting compat, so lower priority
# [20:14] <timeless> topic: Bug 26838 Normatively address vulnerabilities related to initData contained in media data
# [20:14] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26838
# [20:14] <timeless> paulc: we looked on Oct 14
# [20:14] <timeless> ... said "discuss at F2F"
# [20:15] <timeless> ... made change on Oct 17
# [20:15] <timeless> ddorwin: that's the https: bug
# [20:15] <timeless> ... "data you can't validate is bad"
# [20:15] <timeless> ... "data you're passing that can't be sandboxed is bad"
# [20:15] <timeless> ... "inject random stuff, that's even worse -- network attack"
# [20:15] <joesteele> q+
# [20:15] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [20:16] <timeless> ... left w/ "make it so you can sanitize it"
# [20:16] * shepazu is now known as shepazoOoOoOo
# [20:16] <timeless> ... some implementations can't
# [20:16] <timeless> ... they're working to improve
# [20:16] <timeless> paulc: is this dependent on bug 26332?
# [20:16] <timeless> ddorwin: yes
# [20:16] <timeless> ... both, it and bug 27093
# [20:16] <timeless> paulc: so this is the nullset once those two others are done
# [20:16] <timeless> ddorwin: i'm open to other ideas
# [20:17] <timeless> ... but that's what the analysis boils down to
# [20:17] * Quits: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:17] <timeless> paulc: given discussion on https:
# [20:17] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
# [20:17] <timeless> ... is that the only solution?
# [20:17] <timeless> ddorwin: it depends on, influences 26332
# [20:17] <timeless> ... it's one of the reasons you want a secure-origin
# [20:17] <timeless> paulc: markw, when you discussed things in 26332
# [20:17] <timeless> ... is this initData case one of those things?
# [20:18] <timeless> markw: could be
# [20:18] <timeless> ... yeah, this was one of the
# [20:18] <timeless> ... in 26332, we talked about security + privacy
# [20:18] * Quits: Zefa__ (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:18] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:18] <timeless> ... are there different considerations for validating initData v.
# [20:18] <timeless> ... update messages in the update() method
# [20:18] <timeless> ... require UAs ensure those things are validated
# [20:18] <timeless> ... minimum standards for sandboxing etc?
# [20:19] <timeless> ... go through that, could allow unauthenticated storage
# [20:19] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [20:19] <timeless> paulc: wanted you to think about it
# [20:19] <timeless> q?
# [20:19] * Zakim sees joesteele on the speaker queue
# [20:19] <timeless> ack joesteele
# [20:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:19] <timeless> joesteele: markw, you asked ddorwin if those types of data are different
# [20:19] <timeless> ... they are different
# [20:19] <timeless> ... getting to a place where initdata is in the media, is a common format which is validatable
# [20:20] <timeless> ... is easier than getting messages from server are validatable
# [20:20] <ddorwin> q+
# [20:20] * Zakim sees ddorwin on the speaker queue
# [20:20] <timeless> ... those messages are entirely encrypted w/ a key that the app won't have a way
# [20:20] <timeless> paulc: so it depends on how you get the initData ?
# [20:20] <timeless> joesteele: no
# [20:20] <timeless> ... initData can be common-format, or proprietary format
# [20:20] <timeless> ... getting everyone to use common-format is easier problem to solve
# [20:20] <timeless> ... other thing
# [20:20] * Joins: markw_ (~markw@public.cloak)
# [20:20] <timeless> ... in initialization-data portion
# [20:20] <timeless> ... where it talks about what it may contain
# [20:21] <markw_> q+
# [20:21] * Zakim sees ddorwin, markw_ on the speaker queue
# [20:21] <timeless> ... one minor nit to pick w/ it, ddorwin and i have talked
# [20:21] <timeless> ... i may file a bug to make the change required
# [20:21] * Joins: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
# [20:21] <timeless> ... right now, the text there requiring validating initialization data
# [20:21] <timeless> ... requires being able to validate that
# [20:21] <timeless> ... initially i thought there was no way
# [20:21] <timeless> ... but after browser vendor discussion
# [20:21] <timeless> ... validation may be minimal, but if that's ok
# [20:21] <ddorwin> q-
# [20:21] * Zakim sees markw_ on the speaker queue
# [20:21] <timeless> ... it's up to browser vendor
# [20:21] <timeless> q?
# [20:21] * Zakim sees markw_ on the speaker queue
# [20:21] <timeless> ack markw_
# [20:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:22] <timeless> s/markw_/markw/G
# [20:22] <timeless> markw_: validation requirements to put in place
# [20:22] <timeless> ... require that data must be validated
# [20:22] <timeless> ... in processes no-greater privs than rendering
# [20:22] <timeless> ... gives flexibility
# [20:22] <timeless> ... maybe UA validates
# [20:22] <timeless> ... maybe CDM does it (if it's reviewed)
# [20:22] <joesteele> +1 to that proposal
# [20:22] <timeless> ... ensures validation happens, but don't dictate where
# [20:23] <timeless> topic: Bug 25092 Need a way to inform script that resolution restrictions are applied
# [20:23] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25092#c23
# [20:23] <timeless> paulc: i don't think URI has done anything about this?
# [20:23] <timeless> markw: no progress i'm aware of
# [20:23] <timeless> ... still, CSS side people or other media people + browsers
# [20:23] <timeless> ... from which we need input
# [20:23] <timeless> paulc: ok
# [20:24] <timeless> ... on my list of things to followup / find someone to help
# [20:24] <timeless> topic: Bug 25268 Reduce the burden on applications to deduplicate initData from many needkey events
# [20:24] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25268
# [20:24] <timeless> paulc: We will close this at the F2F if no solution is provided.
# [20:24] <timeless> ... no proposal here
# [20:24] <timeless> joesteele: i second
# [20:24] <timeless> paulc: glenn said it was an optimization
# [20:24] <timeless> ... ddorwin reduced priority
# [20:25] <timeless> ... we agreed on Oct 14 to resolve this
# [20:25] <timeless> ... wontfix/later?
# [20:25] <timeless> ddorwin: LATER
# [20:25] <timeless> paulc: objections?
# [20:25] * Quits: markw (~markw@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:25] <timeless> jdsmith: makes sense
# [20:25] <timeless> joesteele: no objection
# [20:25] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin do that now
# [20:25] <timeless> ddorwin: done
# [20:25] * Joins: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [20:25] <timeless> topic: Bug 20944 EME should do more to encourage/ensure CDM-level interop
# [20:26] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20944
# [20:26] <timeless> paulc: we'll skip -- probably last thing we do before LC
# [20:26] <timeless> ddorwin: it has a formal objection
# [20:26] <timeless> paulc: we don't need to deal w/ that until CR
# [20:26] <timeless> ... or we could change Process
# [20:26] <timeless> Bug 25434 Remove unsupported informative text in Abstract regarding OOB communication.
# [20:26] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25434
# [20:26] <timeless> paulc: This bug was re-opened after the Editors closed it. We will discuss at the F2F meeting.
# [20:27] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [20:27] <timeless> [ hg server is broken ]
# [20:27] <timeless> [ randomly ]
# [20:27] <timeless> ddorwin: i'm in favor of moving to git
# [20:28] <timeless> ddorwin: EME to be used to identify what's supported
# [20:28] <timeless> ... TAG stated that you send things through the application
# [20:28] <timeless> ... we can't enforce things if we can't control what goes through the UA
# [20:28] <timeless> ... this bug was opened claiming that the normative text doesn't enforce this
# [20:28] * Quits: IsabelleH (~IsabelleH@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:29] <timeless> ... this fixes this by additionally normally defining that you can't do out of band
# [20:29] <timeless> ... but i added an exception, individualization goes through the UA
# [20:29] <timeless> ... user clears id, you can do it again
# [20:29] <timeless> ... i added an exception for that
# [20:29] <timeless> ... debate over words, i've tried to clarify
# [20:29] <timeless> paulc: status?
# [20:29] <timeless> ddorwin: closed
# [20:30] * Quits: igarashi__ (~igarashi@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [20:30] * Joins: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak)
# [20:30] <timeless> topic: Bug 23827 Need to add features at risk prior to entry into Candidate Recommendation
# [20:30] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23827
# [20:30] <timeless> paulc: CR, checklist -- later
# [20:30] * Quits: yohsumi (~yohsumi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:30] <timeless> Topic: Bug 24874 Positive isTypeSupported() may be misleading (MSE vs. .src=)
# [20:30] <timeless> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24874
# [20:30] * Quits: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:30] <timeless> paulc: David to update bug now based on how MediaKey get created -- bug 25923.
# [20:31] <timeless> Zakim, who's on the call?
# [20:31] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara
# [20:31] <Zakim> Santabarbara has paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele, darobin
# [20:31] * Joins: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak)
# [20:32] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin, did you do the update?
# [20:32] <timeless> ... yes, you did in comment 2
# [20:32] <MarkVickers> q+
# [20:32] * Zakim sees MarkVickers on the speaker queue
# [20:32] <timeless> Zakim, ddorwin has entered slightlyoff
# [20:32] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'slightlyoff'
# [20:32] <timeless> Zakim, ddorwin has entered Santabarbara
# [20:32] <Zakim> +ddorwin; got it
# [20:32] <timeless> ddorwin: some implementations only support EME w/ MSE
# [20:32] <timeless> ... video.src=foo.mp4
# [20:32] <timeless> ... it doesn't work
# [20:33] <timeless> ... when we return it isn't supported
# [20:33] <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
# [20:33] <timeless> ... there's no indication that it isn't supported, only w/ MSE
# [20:33] <timeless> ... maybe some TV type devices, won't put any effort in
# [20:33] <timeless> ... do we care?
# [20:33] <timeless> ... worth adding an extra attribute?
# [20:33] <timeless> ... how do we make default behavior correct?
# [20:34] <timeless> ddorwin: i'm turning into a pumpkin
# [20:34] <timeless> MarkVickers: ddorwin mentioned he's working on git
# [20:34] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:34] <timeless> ... and then commiting to hg
# [20:34] <timeless> ... seems like busywork
# [20:34] <timeless> ... can we let it stay in git?
# [20:34] <timeless> paulc: continue to use bugzilla for bugs?
# [20:35] <timeless> MikeSmith: as the person who got stuck w/ maintaining the Hg server
# [20:35] <timeless> ... i'd like to get out of the Hg server
# [20:35] <timeless> ... you can move to github and keep using bugzilla
# [20:35] <timeless> ... maybe eventually you'd start using github issues
# [20:35] <timeless> ... but please do so as soon as possible
# [20:35] <timeless> ... i'll do the work to migrate you
# [20:35] <timeless> paulc: as the rep of the company that bought the hg server
# [20:35] <timeless> ... do i get the money back?
# [20:36] <timeless> MikeSmith: we'll repurpose the server for a more useful thing for the world
# [20:36] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin, make a proposal to move to github
# [20:37] <timeless> topic: Introductions
# [20:37] <timeless> acolwell: Aaron Colwell, MSE spec editor
# [20:37] <timeless> ... I support using git instead of hg
# [20:38] * Quits: ddorwin (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [20:38] <timeless> topic: MSE qqq
# [20:38] <timeless> paulc: we had a heartbeat
# [20:38] <adrianba> q+
# [20:38] * Zakim sees MarkVickers, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:38] <timeless> ... that blew away the Streams object definition we were using
# [20:38] * Quits: masatakayakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:38] <timeless> ... first acolwell, do we have an MSE bug related to this?
# [20:39] <timeless> ... i know i had an action item
# [20:39] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [20:39] <timeless> acolwell: i was planning to file two bugs
# [20:39] <timeless> ... one to remove the existing text
# [20:39] <timeless> ... one to add new text
# [20:39] <timeless> s/add new text/figure out a new way to integrate with the new version of the spec/
# [20:40] <timeless> paulc: appendStream() ?
# [20:40] <timeless> ... needs to be redefined?
# [20:40] <timeless> acolwell: one path forward is to completely remove it
# [20:40] <timeless> ... that didn't work out
# [20:40] <timeless> ... figure out a new way that's more natural
# [20:40] <timeless> ... to integrate w/ new Stream spec
# [20:40] <timeless> ... we could shoehorn, but it wouldn't be good
# [20:40] <timeless> ... Domenic 's spec
# [20:41] <timeless> paulc: i expected that the w3c spec to tell me how do to things i was doing previously
# [20:41] <timeless> q?
# [20:41] * Zakim sees MarkVickers, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:41] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [20:41] * Zakim sees MarkVickers on the speaker queue
# [20:41] <timeless> adrianba: we talked about this
# [20:41] <MarkVickers> q-
# [20:41] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:41] <timeless> ... for a fair amount of time as part of WebApps WG meeting
# [20:41] <timeless> ... 1st, from a spec status perspective
# [20:41] <timeless> ... there was a heartbeat publication of WebApps
# [20:42] <timeless> ... that describes the objects in Domenic 's spec
# [20:42] <timeless> ... ReadableStreams, WritableStreams
# [20:42] <timeless> ... those are the things we care about
# [20:42] <timeless> ... points to Domenic 's spec @ whatwg
# [20:42] <timeless> ... part of discussion for future of that spec
# [20:42] * Quits: k_takabayashi (~k_takabayashi@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [20:42] <timeless> ... is Domenic is interested in potentially having foundational pieces of Streams spec
# [20:42] <timeless> ... independent of browsers, really JS language features
# [20:42] <timeless> ... being moved to TC39
# [20:43] <timeless> ... incorporated in discussions @ECMA
# [20:43] <timeless> ... caveat is that he's not sure if the group would adopt that
# [20:43] <timeless> ... Microsoft's position is that we're supportive of tha
# [20:43] <timeless> s/of tha/of that/
# [20:43] <timeless> ... the next question is how to update MSE spec to use the new way that Streams are exposed to the platform
# [20:43] <timeless> ... previously we just had a Stream object
# [20:44] <timeless> ... we wanted to keep the concept of adding data from a stream
# [20:44] <timeless> ... take a dependency in the CR draft w/ a note understanding that we'd need to update to the new spec
# [20:44] <timeless> ... in WebApps, we talked about a couple of different options
# [20:44] <timeless> ... this is what acolwell meant
# [20:44] <timeless> ... to integrate w/ the new approach to Streams
# [20:44] <timeless> ... it's very different
# [20:45] <timeless> ... one approach is ReadableStream w/ bytes, or ReadableByteStream
# [20:45] <timeless> ... we could do that and be done
# [20:45] <timeless> paulc: reference would be to Domenic 's current document
# [20:45] <timeless> ... w/ possibility that it might actually be an ECMA reference?
# [20:45] <timeless> adrianba: i'd prefer to deal w/ technical aspect
# [20:45] <timeless> ... we could change appendStream to take a ReadableStream or ReadableByteStream
# [20:45] <timeless> ... call that good and move on
# [20:46] <timeless> ... but question is, whether that's really in the spirit of the new Stream API
# [20:46] * timeless Domenic ???
# [20:46] <timeless> ... spectrum of things you might do beyond that
# [20:46] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [20:46] <timeless> ... in WebApps, we discussed "maybe that's good for now"
# [20:46] * Domenic literally speaking in another meeting right now, sorry :(!!
# [20:46] <timeless> ... and in v2 discuss changing things
# [20:46] <timeless> ... maybe change the MSE Stream API
# [20:46] <timeless> ... to expose a WritableStream API
# [20:46] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [20:46] <timeless> ... to let you build Pipes
# [20:47] <timeless> ... but there was a general consensus that it wasn't required
# [20:47] <timeless> ... given we've moved to CR
# [20:47] <timeless> ... called for implementations
# [20:47] <acolwell> q+
# [20:47] * Zakim sees acolwell on the speaker queue
# [20:47] <timeless> ... maybe this isn't the right time to do that
# [20:47] <timeless> ... that's a summary re: new [Streams] spec
# [20:47] <timeless> ... rewrite implementation to new design
# [20:47] <timeless> ... personally favoring small change rather than large change
# [20:48] <timeless> paulc: your changes "2. small change" "3. future change"
# [20:48] <timeless> ... eliminating "1. remove feature from MSE"
# [20:48] <timeless> adrianba: we discussed #1 twelve months ago and decided it wasn't a good idea
# [20:48] <Domenic> I am willing to submit a pull request with updated text if that would help
# [20:48] <timeless> paulc: we kept it w/ a reference to the gone thing
# [20:48] <timeless> ... your preference is #2
# [20:49] <timeless> adrianba: we discussed it twelve months ago
# [20:49] <timeless> ... right now favor #2
# [20:49] <timeless> ... but i might be persuaded
# [20:49] <timeless> ack acolwell
# [20:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:49] <timeless> acolwell: adrianba did a good job of describing
# [20:49] <timeless> ... i'm in favor of 2
# [20:49] <timeless> ... less work for me, and implementations
# [20:49] <timeless> ... depends on how people feel about it not being as natural
# [20:49] <timeless> ... it would achieve the original intent of appendStream()
# [20:50] <timeless> ... from a platform perspective of everything hooking together, is this ok to have?
# [20:50] <timeless> ... it's kind of too late
# [20:50] <timeless> paulc: can you re-iterate the two bugs?
# [20:50] <timeless> acolwell: 2 bugs is if we take option #1 path and then immediately do option #3
# [20:50] <timeless> ... #3 -- figure out something more natural
# [20:50] <timeless> ... adrianba is pro #2
# [20:51] <timeless> ... and i don't object severely
# [20:51] <timeless> paulc: Domenic are you willing to do that for option #2
# [20:51] <timeless> ... (or was that for #3?)
# [20:51] * Joins: nsakai2 (~nsakai2@public.cloak)
# [20:51] <timeless> acolwell: if we take option #2, i don't think we need Domenic
# [20:52] <timeless> ... it's really just changing implementations to use Promises
# [20:52] <markw_> q+
# [20:52] * Zakim sees markw_ on the speaker queue
# [20:52] <timeless> ... two people have said option #2 is the way to go
# [20:52] <timeless> paulc: we're in CR
# [20:52] <timeless> ... is there a bug for change #2
# [20:52] <jdsmith> q+
# [20:52] * Zakim sees markw_, jdsmith on the speaker queue
# [20:52] <timeless> acolwell: i can file one
# [20:52] <MikeSmith> q?
# [20:52] * Zakim sees markw_, jdsmith on the speaker queue
# [20:52] <timeless> adrianba: i think Domenic was probably proposing option #3
# [20:52] <timeless> ack markw_
# [20:52] * Zakim sees jdsmith on the speaker queue
# [20:53] <timeless> markw_: original intention of putting this in here
# [20:53] <timeless> ... sounds like an optimization
# [20:53] <Domenic> yes, was proposing option 3
# [20:53] <timeless> ... media data doesn't need to flow up to js and then down again
# [20:53] <timeless> ... but sometimes, it might not be an optimization
# [20:53] <timeless> ... we have an implementation that does that
# [20:53] <timeless> ... using ArrayBuffers
# [20:53] <timeless> ... but there's another reason
# [20:53] <timeless> ... Q to browsers, do browsers have an optimization
# [20:54] <timeless> ... if they don't, then we want option #3, but do it later
# [20:54] <timeless> acolwell: i haven't looked at what Chrome's implementation of the new stream api
# [20:54] <timeless> ... but based on the code for the old impl
# [20:54] <timeless> ... i wouldn't expect a big difference between old/new
# [20:54] <timeless> ... i don't think it really matters
# [20:54] <timeless> ack jdsmith
# [20:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:54] <timeless> jdsmith: in WebApps
# [20:54] <timeless> ... Domenic took an action to help us understand the capabilities of WritableStreams
# [20:55] <timeless> ... what specificaly we'd gain
# [20:55] <timeless> ... i think there's merit in embracing ReadableStreams
# [20:55] <timeless> ... how soon we'd want to pursue option #3
# [20:55] <timeless> ... how much we could optimize our impl
# [20:55] <timeless> acolwell: when we implement a WritableStream
# [20:55] * Quits: nsakai2 (~nsakai2@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [20:55] * Domenic Zakim, code?
# [20:55] * Zakim saw 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org) given for the conference code, Domenic
# [20:55] <timeless> ... both appendBuffer and appendStream could maintain backwards compat w/ the API
# [20:56] <Zakim> +Domenic
# [20:56] <timeless> paulc: markw was asking if there was merit in maintaining the current
# [20:56] <timeless> jdsmith: speaking for IE
# [20:56] <timeless> ... we've spent effort in implementing current
# [20:56] <timeless> ... but i don't think we've spent much to optimize
# [20:56] <timeless> ... we actually don't believe migrating to ReadableStream is difficult
# [20:56] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [20:57] <timeless> paulc: Domenic, sounds like were po
# [20:57] <timeless> s/were po/we're proposing is option #2/
# [20:57] <timeless> ... redefine on top of ReadableStream/ReadableByteStream
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# [20:57] <timeless> ... leave pending going to WriteableByteStream for a later version of the spec
# [20:58] <timeless> Domenic: might be more awkward for some consumers
# [20:58] <timeless> ... but even if you started w/ the current stream spec
# [20:58] <timeless> ... you might want appendStream anyway
# [20:58] * Quits: aaa (~aaa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:58] <timeless> paulc: so, acolwell, you'll do #2
# [20:58] <timeless> Domenic: i'm glad you guys are working to build on this
# [20:58] <timeless> ... i did similar w/ Promises
# [20:58] <timeless> ... i'm happy to help
# [20:59] <timeless> ... writing up how to use Streams in TAG,
# [20:59] <timeless> ... make pull requests
# [20:59] <timeless> ... etc.
# [20:59] <timeless> paulc: we'll do this and then ask for your feedback
# [20:59] <timeless> Topic: MSE CR Status
# [20:59] <MikeSmith> -> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/labels/media-source Open PRs for MSE tests
# [21:00] * Domenic off the phone, still in IRC and can call back in :). thanks all.
# [21:00] <Zakim> -Domenic
# [21:00] <timeless> paulc: acolwell, you sent an email to the list about status
# [21:00] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
# [21:00] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [21:00] <timeless> ... i think your pull request to Chrome was accepted?
# [21:00] <timeless> ... and you submitted more tests?
# [21:00] <timeless> ... don't know offhand current status
# [21:00] * Quits: yinagaki (~yinagaki@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [21:00] <timeless> ... don't know if anyone else submitted
# [21:00] <timeless> MikeSmith: Uchira
# [21:01] <timeless> paulc: someone else submitting tests
# [21:01] <MikeSmith> s/Uchira/Uchida
# [21:01] <timeless> ... hoping someone would know overall status
# [21:01] <timeless> ... if that was me, i don't know the answer
# [21:01] <timeless> acolwell: that's the current state
# [21:01] * Quits: shepazoOoOoOo (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
# [21:01] <timeless> ... i commented on all the other tests that were submitted
# [21:01] <timeless> ... most were included in my update
# [21:01] <timeless> ... i suggested waiving off a number since they were covered in my landing
# [21:02] <timeless> ... one-or-two not covered
# [21:02] <timeless> ... i'd like someone else from the TF to step up
# [21:02] <timeless> ... i know jerry-noble from Apple had TTT
# [21:02] <timeless> paulc: this it the front end, people submitting tests
# [21:02] <timeless> ... i don't believe we've started to construct an implementation report
# [21:02] <timeless> ... to tell us coverage of tests
# [21:02] <timeless> ... or results for implementations
# [21:03] <timeless> ... we went into CR in Jan
# [21:03] <timeless> ... and we haven't made much progress 10 months later
# [21:03] <timeless> plh: someone needs to step up
# [21:03] <timeless> acolwell: i'd prefer it not be me
# [21:03] * timeless MikeSmith TTT?
# [21:03] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [21:03] <timeless> ... we need understanding from chairs
# [21:03] <timeless> ... intent of providing Blink Tests
# [21:03] <timeless> ... was to get this started
# [21:04] <timeless> ... i'd like to see other implementers engaged
# [21:04] <timeless> paulc: i guess that's not the kind of question between you and lunch
# [21:04] <timeless> acolwell: i understand
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# [21:04] * timeless acolwell were you putting stuff in from Chrome, or donating tests from Blink?
# [21:04] <timeless> paulc: i guess we need to find more tests
# [21:05] <timeless> ... and find someone from outside the TF
# [21:05] <acolwell> timeless: The Blink tests are Chrome's tests
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# [21:05] <timeless> paulc: we've had 3 separate submissions
# [21:05] <timeless> ... acolwell 's original blink tests
# [21:06] <timeless> ... independent tests that overlap
# [21:06] <plh> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+label%3Amedia-source
# [21:06] <timeless> ... acolwell 's second batch that need to be reviewed
# [21:06] * Quits: song_ (~song@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:06] <timeless> ... no one has done analysis of those tests against MSE spec
# [21:06] <timeless> ... it isn't a small task
# [21:06] <timeless> ... you could look to darobin
# [21:07] <timeless> ... you can look at our DOM implementation report
# [21:07] <plh> q+
# [21:07] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, plh on the speaker queue
# [21:07] <timeless> ... team members, plh heavily involved in WebPlatform testing
# [21:07] <timeless> ... alright, Cyril maybe you can help prune off items
# [21:07] <timeless> ... and then maybe we can find other resources
# [21:08] * Quits: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [21:08] <timeless> [ rubys recorded action in Media TF ]
# [21:08] <timeless> ack MikeSmith
# [21:08] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
# [21:08] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [21:08] <timeless> MikeSmith: not a great situation
# [21:08] <timeless> ... we had a guy who went in, studied specification in enough detail
# [21:08] <timeless> ... put in several weeks of work
# [21:08] <timeless> ... writing testcases for your spec
# [21:08] <timeless> ... submitted the tests for review, many months ago
# [21:08] <timeless> ... and no one reviewed them
# [21:08] <timeless> Cyril: i started reviewing them
# [21:09] <timeless> MikeSmith: from his perspective
# [21:09] <timeless> ... he's pretty frustrated
# [21:09] <timeless> glenn: we'll get around to it
# [21:09] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:09] <timeless> MikeSmith: several months
# [21:09] <timeless> paulc: connection between Pull-Request and MSE
# [21:09] <timeless> ... isn't obvious
# [21:09] <timeless> MikeSmith: but i came to you
# [21:09] <timeless> Cyril: critique system is hard to use
# [21:10] <timeless> MikeSmith: i don't want to hand hold
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# [21:10] <timeless> paulc: MS volunteered to try to help
# [21:10] <timeless> ... but the staff was reassigned
# [21:10] <timeless> ... to other work
# [21:10] <timeless> ... it's on the agenda
# [21:10] <timeless> ... we have at least one person stepping up
# [21:10] <timeless> ... work w/ Team, Cyril, myself
# [21:10] <timeless> q?
# [21:10] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [21:10] <timeless> ack plh
# [21:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:10] <timeless> plh: answer how we take
# [21:11] <timeless> ... we have 13 pull-requests
# [21:11] * Quits: markw_ (~markw@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:11] <timeless> ... each is at least 100 lines of code
# [21:11] <timeless> ... i'm assuming you're not familiar w/ the testing system
# [21:11] <timeless> ... at least a full week of work
# [21:11] <timeless> ... 1-2 days to get into the code
# [21:11] <timeless> ... 2-3 days to go through the tests
# [21:11] <timeless> ... i'm assuming you're somehow familiar w/ the spec
# [21:11] <timeless> ... if not, it'll take you longer
# [21:11] <timeless> Cyril: i have implemented MSE in open source software
# [21:12] <timeless> ... i know a bit about the testing framework
# [21:12] <timeless> ... but it's so difficult finding which tests have been reviewed
# [21:12] <timeless> ... i wasn't aware of the Pull Requests
# [21:12] <timeless> ... wher?
# [21:12] <timeless> s/er/ere/
# [21:12] <timeless> paulc: MikeSmith, that's the point I was making
# [21:12] <timeless> ... let's do lunch
# [21:12] <timeless> ... pointer to pull-requests?
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# [21:12] <timeless> plh: we improved thanks to jgraham
# [21:13] <timeless> ... the documentation
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# [21:13] <timeless> Cyril: i met jgraham in London in August
# [21:13] <timeless> ... huge step in understanding
# [21:13] <timeless> ... if you want other people to help
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# [21:13] <timeless> ... you want them to not have to meet jgraham directly
# [21:13] <timeless> paulc: slope to climb
# [21:13] <timeless> ... glenn before lunch
# [21:14] <timeless> glenn: plh, status of support of https: in webplatform tests?
# [21:14] <timeless> plh: we have a pull-request for it
# [21:14] <timeless> paulc: acolwell, i think if you wanted to bring this up
# [21:14] <timeless> ... and your hope was to get a volunteer
# [21:14] <timeless> ... i think that actually happened (Cyril)
# [21:14] <timeless> ... maybe in 2-3 weeks we can schedule a test discussion on the MSE Tuesday call
# [21:14] <timeless> ... acolwell, please feel free to get Domenic 's help
# [21:14] * plh glenn, see https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1302
# [21:14] <timeless> acolwell: that's fine
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# [21:14] <timeless> paulc: recessed until 2pm
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# [21:15] <timeless> ... darobin up then is DOM4 implementation / status
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# [21:15] <timeless> darobin: can we come back late?
# [21:15] <timeless> paulc: let's try for 2pm
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# [21:15] <timeless> [ Lunch ]
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# [21:15] <Zakim> -Aaron_Colwell
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# [22:06] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [22:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
# [22:07] <darobin> http://w3c.github.io/test-results/dom/less-than-2.html
# [22:07] <timeless> topic: AAA
# [22:07] <timeless> s|AAA|DOM4 implementation / status|
# [22:08] <timeless> s|topic: DOM4 implementation / status||
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# [22:08] <timeless> i|http|topic: DOM4 implementation / status||
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# [22:09] <timeless> i|http|topic: DOM4 implementation / status|
# [22:09] <timeless> s/http//
# [22:09] <timeless> s|topic: DOM4 implementation / status||
# [22:09] <timeless> s/i|||//
# [22:09] <timeless> darobin: there are parts of the spec that don't represent reality
# [22:09] <timeless> ... HTML5 not withstanding
# [22:09] * glazou joins from SFO
# [22:10] <timeless> paulc: i have two more press interviews on Monday
# [22:10] <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
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# [22:10] <timeless> darobin: bz's objection was the behavior of createDocument()
# [22:10] * glazou is currently implementing all of DOM4 in Haxe
# [22:10] <timeless> ... if you create something that should be an xhtml document
# [22:10] <timeless> ... document has a type, either HTML, or xml
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# [22:10] <paulc> Boris's objection: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0014.html
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# [22:10] <timeless> ... the spec doesn't say if an xml document should have type=xml
# [22:10] <timeless> ... you could create an XML document object with type = html
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# [22:11] <timeless> ... if you create an xml document from the html element
# [22:11] <timeless> ... it creates an document object w/ type=html
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# [22:11] <zcorpan_> q+
# [22:11] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
# [22:11] <timeless> darobin: we tried to review the tests
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# [22:11] <timeless> ... to see if interop/spec issue
# [22:11] <timeless> ... to see if it's just impls that haven't caught up
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# [22:11] <timeless> ... no need to go through all tests
# [22:11] <timeless> ... if people want to contribute, we can talk about that
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# [22:12] <timeless> ... some situations are things where browsers haven't caught up
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# [22:12] <timeless> ... WebIDL -- nothing to fix in DOM, problems go away when impls catch up
# [22:12] <timeless> ... createNodeIterator
# [22:12] <timeless> ... so many errors that it impacts scrolling
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# [22:12] <timeless> ... spec isn't 100% clear
# [22:12] <timeless> ... Firefox has a behavior no one else has
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# [22:13] <timeless> ... if you look at less than two
# [22:13] <timeless> ... it's clear that the spec isn't clear
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# [22:13] <timeless> ... the test follows Gecko's behavior
# [22:13] <timeless> ... no one else does
# [22:13] <timeless> ... spec probably needs to be clarified
# [22:13] <timeless> ... and the spec changed
# [22:13] <timeless> ... and then the others turn green
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# [22:13] <timeless> glenn_: doesn't mean it's correct
# [22:13] <plh> http://w3c.github.io/test-results/dom/less-than-2.html
# [22:14] <timeless> darobin: you can pass three things, one is a node filter
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# [22:14] <timeless> ... it's exposed as a node filter, but the spec isn't clear how to construct that object
# [22:14] * glazou thinks he supports, based on his own implem, boris’s objection
# [22:14] * glazou hard to test here at SFO
# [22:14] <timeless> ... it's fairly clear that the spec doesn't define how to construct it
# [22:14] <timeless> ... i think that's a spec bug
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# [22:14] <timeless> ... that's like createElement
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# [22:15] <timeless> ... and i'd like to remind people to discuss on www-dom@w3.org
# [22:15] <timeless> ... not public-html@
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# [22:15] <timeless> ... if there's no bug, create a bug
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# [22:15] <timeless> ... if there is, make sure there's a discussion on ML / in bug
# [22:15] <plh> q?
# [22:15] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
# [22:15] <timeless> ... whereever annevk is happy
# [22:15] <timeless> ack zcorpan_
# [22:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:16] <timeless> zcorpan_: you said the spec doesn't define if createDocument should create Document w/ html flag set/not
# [22:16] <timeless> ... but that isn't true
# [22:16] <timeless> ... the ED says ...
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# [22:16] <timeless> ... "a document is assumed to be an xml document unless it's flagged as being an html document"
# [22:16] <timeless> darobin: if you follow the spec to the letter, you'll get clear behavior
# [22:16] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:16] * Quits: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:16] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [22:16] <timeless> ... you have an XML Document interface, its flag could be set to html
# [22:17] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [22:17] <timeless> zcorpan_: there's no API to create XML Document w/ html flag set
# [22:17] <timeless> darobin: seems to be what chrome is doing
# [22:17] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3278
# [22:17] <timeless> ... if seems to be doing
# [22:17] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:17] <timeless> zcorpan_: i pasted a link, and it seems to not be set
# [22:17] <timeless> darobin_: my tests were ...
# [22:17] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [22:18] <timeless> darobin_: wrong case
# [22:18] <timeless> ... createDocument w/ html namespace
# [22:18] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [22:18] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, Mark_Vickers
# [22:18] <Zakim> Santabarbara has paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele, darobin, ddorwin
# [22:19] <timeless> Zakim, ddorwin has left Santabarbara
# [22:19] <Zakim> -ddorwin; got it
# [22:19] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3279
# [22:19] * shepazutu is now known as shepazu
# [22:19] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [22:19] * Quits: danbri1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:21] <darobin_> http://jsfiddle.net/003c04ew/1/
# [22:21] <darobin_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Oct/0007.html
# [22:21] <timeless> Zakim, joesteele has left Santabarbara
# [22:21] <Zakim> -joesteele; got it
# [22:21] * Quits: ddorwin (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [22:21] * Joins: danbri1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [22:21] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3280
# [22:21] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:22] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3281
# [22:22] <timeless> darobin_: the other thing is that only gecko supports XMLDocument.load
# [22:22] <timeless> ... so we could kill that feature
# [22:22] <timeless> paulc: we used Gecko as a legacy implementation to get test results?
# [22:22] <timeless> darobin_: Gecko is pretty recent
# [22:22] <timeless> ... last time this was discussed... 3..5 years ago
# [22:22] <timeless> ... introduced by IE6? 5?
# [22:22] <timeless> ... Gecko emulated it
# [22:23] <timeless> ... 3..5 years ago, this had to be supported for compat
# [22:23] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [22:23] <timeless> ... then IE dropped it
# [22:23] <timeless> ... now, Gecko is the only one keeping it around
# [22:23] <timeless> ... so maybe we can drop thit
# [22:23] <zcorpan_> q+
# [22:23] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
# [22:23] <zcorpan_> q?
# [22:23] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
# [22:23] <timeless> ack zcorpan_
# [22:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:23] <timeless> zcorpan_: the last two links test namespaceuri instead
# [22:24] * Quits: danbri1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:24] <timeless> ... that shows a difference in chrome
# [22:24] <timeless> ... document w/ null namespace+tagname
# [22:24] <timeless> ... createElement creates an element in null ns
# [22:24] <timeless> ... if you do it w/ an html element, you get html ns
# [22:24] <timeless> ... that's bz's issue
# [22:24] <timeless> zcorpan_: that's a known bug/change
# [22:25] <timeless> ... it's where we wanted implementations to go
# [22:25] <timeless> darobin_: bz seemed to disagree w/ that direction
# [22:25] <timeless> zcorpan_: my opinion is that we should push impls in that direction
# [22:25] <timeless> darobin_: we're trying to find problems to actually help
# [22:25] <timeless> zcorpan_: i want it to go in this direction
# [22:25] <timeless> darobin_: discuss on list
# [22:26] <timeless> ... XMLDocument.load is an example
# [22:26] <timeless> ... bz said we needed it for compat
# [22:26] <timeless> ... but no one supports it
# [22:26] <timeless> ... if we can update and dropping it
# [22:26] <timeless> ... we now have much better results than 6 months ago
# [22:26] <timeless> ... nodeIterator wasn't there, and it found problems
# [22:26] <timeless> ... which is why i don't think we need to dig deep in meetings
# [22:27] <timeless> ... that's the plan
# [22:27] <timeless> paulc: schedule?
# [22:27] <timeless> ... priority list?
# [22:27] <timeless> darobin_: good to get it done not too long from now, in November
# [22:27] <timeless> plh: what are exact steps?
# [22:27] <timeless> ... to understand exact steps
# [22:27] <timeless> ... we need to identify what is important, and file bugs? start discussion?
# [22:28] <timeless> darobin_: same thing
# [22:28] <timeless> ... just a triage operation
# [22:28] <timeless> paulc: the spec is in CR
# [22:28] <timeless> darobin_: if we fix this, it'd go back
# [22:28] <timeless> paulc: do we want to run this on the new Process?
# [22:28] <timeless> [ new Process avoids needing LC ]
# [22:29] <rubys1> action: paulc prepare CfC concerning moving DOM4 to the new process
# [22:29] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [22:29] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:29] <trackbot> Created ACTION-250 - Prepare cfc concerning moving dom4 to the new process [on Paul Cotton - due 2014-11-07].
# [22:29] <timeless> plh: nice to have a list of the failures that matter
# [22:29] <timeless> paulc: triage list to ones we want to investigate
# [22:29] <timeless> ... identify those that need to change the specification
# [22:29] * Parts: astearns (~sid15080@public.cloak)
# [22:29] <timeless> darobin_: no cases we're sure of
# [22:29] <timeless> ... createDocument thing thought spec should match reality
# [22:29] <timeless> ... but there's pushback
# [22:30] <timeless> paulc: i'll hold my CfC until you show me at least one
# [22:30] <timeless> ... i'd like to refer to that in my CfC
# [22:30] <timeless> ... quantify, 10 failures or 100?
# [22:30] <timeless> darobin_: like 30 something
# [22:30] <timeless> [ ignoring IDL ones ]
# [22:30] <timeless> darobin_: 30 ... features
# [22:30] <timeless> ... the dom spec has a file per feature
# [22:31] <timeless> q?
# [22:31] <timeless> q+ plh
# [22:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:31] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [22:31] <timeless> plh: you have 1100 failures total
# [22:31] <timeless> ... less than two, we might want to look at complete-fails instead
# [22:31] <timeless> ... half from nodeIterator
# [22:31] <timeless> ... quarter from WebIDL
# [22:31] <timeless> ... 250-300 individual tests failing
# [22:31] <timeless> ack plh
# [22:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:32] <timeless> darobin_: good spec, decent interop
# [22:32] <timeless> Josh_Soref: have you run a spell checker against your spec?
# [22:32] <timeless> darobin_: perhaps not
# [22:32] <timeless> ... different kind of lies
# [22:32] <timeless> ... lies, damn lies, spelling errors
# [22:32] <timeless> paulc: steps
# [22:32] <timeless> ... look at failures
# [22:32] <timeless> ... determine significance
# [22:32] <timeless> ... determine spec/tests
# [22:33] <timeless> ... consider moving to new Process if we need to make a breaking change to CR
# [22:33] <timeless> ... get early feedback from bz
# [22:33] <timeless> ... discussion on www-dom@w3.org
# [22:33] * Quits: tomoyuki (~Tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
# [22:33] <timeless> ... is that all?
# [22:33] <timeless> darobin_: yeah
# [22:33] <timeless> Topic: Extension Spec status
# [22:33] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
# [22:33] * timeless http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionSpecifications
# [22:34] <timeless> paulc: Travis raised this
# [22:34] <timeless> i|Travis|-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionSpecifications ExtensionSpecifications|
# [22:34] <timeless> paulc: EME/MSE, under dev in Media TF
# [22:34] * Joins: nigel (~nigel@public.cloak)
# [22:34] <timeless> ... sourceset= and <picture> should have been moved down
# [22:34] <timeless> ... "former extension specs"?
# [22:34] <timeless> rubys1: yes, should have been
# [22:34] <timeless> ... moved
# [22:35] <timeless> paulc: Public Identifiers for entity resolution in XHTML
# [22:35] <timeless> ... no progress made
# [22:35] <timeless> ... Form HTTP Extensions
# [22:35] <timeless> ... no progress made
# [22:35] <timeless> ... action: chairs to contact proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the specs
# [22:35] <timeless> ... Polyglot Markup: A robust profile of the HTML5 vocabulary
# [22:35] <timeless> ... it's in CR
# [22:36] <timeless> ... afaik, no one has submitted any TestCases
# [22:36] <timeless> ... leif promised to do that, even before CR
# [22:36] <timeless> s/leif/Leif H. Silli/
# [22:36] <rubys1> action: paulc to contact public identifiers and Form HTTP Extension proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the specs
# [22:36] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [22:36] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:36] <trackbot> Created ACTION-251 - Contact public identifiers and form http extension proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the specs [on Paul Cotton - due 2014-11-07].
# [22:36] * Joins: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak)
# [22:36] <timeless> ... chairs should look at what editors of spec say
# [22:36] <timeless> q?
# [22:36] <timeless> plh: look at status of editors themselves?
# [22:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:36] <timeless> paulc: yes
# [22:36] <timeless> ... Leif is very hard to contact
# [22:37] <timeless> ... pretty non-responsive to email
# [22:37] <timeless> MikeSmith: he's been away
# [22:37] <timeless> paulc: MikeSmith, if you have backchannel
# [22:37] <timeless> SteveF: i tried to contact him
# [22:37] <timeless> paulc: i know he physically moved residences
# [22:37] * timeless Steve-F ?
# [22:37] <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
# [22:37] <timeless> plh: is Eliot Graff still an editor?
# [22:37] <rubys1> action: paulc - Contact polyglot proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the spec
# [22:37] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:37] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [22:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-252 - - contact polyglot proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the spec [on Paul Cotton - due 2014-11-07].
# [22:37] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [22:37] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara
# [22:37] <Zakim> Santabarbara has paulc, rubys, timeless, darobin
# [22:38] <timeless> paulc: HTML JSON form submission
# [22:38] <timeless> ... whose is this?
# [22:38] <timeless> darobin: mine
# [22:38] <timeless> paulc: statu
# [22:38] <timeless> s/u/us/
# [22:38] <timeless> darobin: large amount of developer interest
# [22:38] <timeless> ... emails weekly asking when it will ship
# [22:38] <timeless> ... no vendor interest
# [22:39] <timeless> ... traditionally vendors have no interest in developer ergonomics
# [22:39] <timeless> plh: a few vendors around the table
# [22:39] <timeless> darobin: stays in limbo
# [22:39] <zcorpan_> q+
# [22:39] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
# [22:39] <timeless> zcorpan_: are there bugs filed on browsers asking them to implement
# [22:39] <timeless> darobin: i'm not aware of
# [22:39] <timeless> ... i could do that if you think it'd be the most helpful
# [22:39] <timeless> zcorpan_: it's sometimes a working approach
# [22:40] <timeless> darobin: i'll take an action item
# [22:40] <timeless> paulc: ED is the most recent version?
# [22:40] <rubys1> action: darobin to file bugs on implementors re: HTML JSON form submission
# [22:40] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [22:40] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [22:40] <trackbot> Created ACTION-253 - File bugs on implementors re: html json form submission [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-11-07].
# [22:40] <MikeSmith> ack zcorpan_
# [22:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:40] <timeless> darobin: i fixed a bunch of bugs before publishing
# [22:40] <timeless> ... a few since, nothing that would justify going for a WD at this point
# [22:40] * SteveF did that for outline algorithm...
# [22:40] <timeless> paulc: longdesc
# [22:41] <timeless> ... - A11y TF
# [22:41] <timeless> ... latest news:
# [22:41] <paulc> Longdesc CFC to move to PR: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0109.html
# [22:41] <timeless> ... link to CfC i sent seconds ago
# [22:41] <timeless> ... that CfC closes next Friday
# [22:41] * Quits: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:42] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:42] <timeless> ... HTML5/HTML4 differences document
# [22:42] <timeless> ... zcorpan_ 's document
# [22:42] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
# [22:42] * Joins: adrianba (~adrianba@public.cloak)
# [22:42] <paulc> HTML5 to HTML4 differences CfC to WG Note: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0110.html
# [22:42] * timeless watches as everyone hits wifi snags at the same time
# [22:42] <timeless> ... we sent CfC to publish this document as a WG Note
# [22:42] <timeless> ... ideally we did it at the same time as publishing HTML5
# [22:42] <timeless> ... this closes Friday as well
# [22:43] <timeless> ... that closes off the work
# [22:43] <timeless> ... we should thank zcorpan_ for tracking the progress of HTML5 backwards against HTML4
# [22:43] <timeless> ... darobin has an action item to update the Landscape document
# [22:43] * Quits: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 32.0.3/20140923175406]")
# [22:43] <timeless> ... recommendation of Editors+Chairs was to archive this as a WG Note
# [22:43] <timeless> ... both of those CfCs are open now
# [22:43] * Joins: SteveF (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [22:43] <timeless> ... Anything else we need to look at?
# [22:44] <timeless> ... SteveF, Text Alternatives document
# [22:44] <plh> q+
# [22:44] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [22:44] <timeless> ... it was supposed to be published before the meeting
# [22:44] <timeless> ... what happened?
# [22:44] <timeless> SteveF: yes, it got published
# [22:44] <timeless> ack plh
# [22:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:44] <plh> http://w3c.github.io/resource-hints/
# [22:45] <timeless> plh: WebPerf WG published FPWD
# [22:45] <timeless> ... extending preload/preconnect
# [22:45] <timeless> s/ing/ing rel= to/
# [22:45] <timeless> ... wanted to raise it to the WG
# [22:45] <timeless> paulc: in spirit of work yesterday
# [22:45] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:45] <timeless> ... when a WG like that asks this WG to review
# [22:45] <timeless> ... it would be really good to ask a pointed question
# [22:45] <timeless> ... so start leading by example here
# [22:46] <timeless> ... so if someone from WebPerf could send pointer to draft
# [22:46] <timeless> ... w/ pointer to concerns
# [22:46] <timeless> plh: i called it an ad more than anything else
# [22:46] <timeless> ... we aren't saying it's READY
# [22:46] <timeless> ... not asking for a formal review
# [22:46] <timeless> Cyril: this spec is under?
# [22:46] <timeless> plh: WebPerf WG
# [22:46] <timeless> ... impls in at least 2 browsers
# [22:47] <Cyril> q+
# [22:47] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [22:47] <timeless> ... experimental/deployed impls
# [22:47] <timeless> ... we expect that spec to move relatively fast
# [22:47] <timeless> rubys1: there are implementers?
# [22:47] <timeless> plh: yes
# [22:47] <timeless> ... implementation won't be an issue for that spec
# [22:47] <timeless> ... it might be in REC in 6 months
# [22:47] <timeless> ... at least shipped in a stable browser by then
# [22:47] <timeless> paulc: anyone else have any other Extension specs inside/outside WG?
# [22:48] <Cyril> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-sourcing-inband-tracks/
# [22:48] * Quits: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
# [22:48] <paulc> ack cyril
# [22:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:48] * Quits: nigel (~nigel@public.cloak) ("")
# [22:48] <timeless> Cyril: HTML Sourcing inband tracks
# [22:48] <plh> s/in REC/shipped in stable browsers/
# [22:48] * glazou goes to plane gate and closes the laptop, bye guys
# [22:48] <timeless> ... as w/ plh, it's a WIP
# [22:48] <timeless> ... not final yet
# [22:48] <timeless> ... i'd like to ask people, in particular browser vendors, to review it
# [22:48] <timeless> ... if they could join the CG, that'd be helpful
# [22:48] * timeless CG == ??
# [22:48] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [22:48] * timeless (which one)
# [22:49] <timeless> ... in HTML5 you can do src=mp4 file or
# [22:49] <timeless> ... mpeg-dash manifest
# [22:49] <timeless> ... if you want to build apps relying on tracks from the resource
# [22:49] <timeless> ... in an interoperable way
# [22:49] <timeless> ... we need a spec for that
# [22:49] <timeless> ... giving guidelines, normative text, for how that should be exposed
# [22:49] <timeless> ... Track has id property
# [22:50] <timeless> ... mp4 tracks have an id
# [22:50] <timeless> ... can we rely on them being the same?
# [22:50] <timeless> ... covers mp4, ogg, WebM, mpeg-dash, ...
# [22:50] <timeless> ... requests for HLS as well
# [22:50] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:50] * Joins: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [22:51] <timeless> ... "Media Resource In-band Tracks Community Group"
# [22:51] <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
# [22:51] <timeless> ... labels, languages, would be properties of tracks
# [22:51] <timeless> q+ to ask why "Media Resource In-band Tracks Community Group" isn't in document
# [22:51] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [22:51] <paulc> See http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#sourcing-in-band-text-tracks
# [22:51] <timeless> paulc: does it relate to this material in html5?
# [22:52] <timeless> Cyril: yes it does
# [22:52] <timeless> ... i'll take it that it should have an introduction
# [22:52] <timeless> ... pointing to that
# [22:52] <timeless> paulc: yes, that'd be good
# [22:52] <timeless> ack timeless
# [22:52] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to ask why "Media Resource In-band Tracks Community Group" isn't in document
# [22:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:52] <timeless> Cyril: and that it should identify the CG
# [22:52] <timeless> paulc: darobin, didn't we give information about resources into html5
# [22:52] <timeless> darobin: a registry, yes
# [22:52] <timeless> paulc: similar thing
# [22:53] <timeless> ... can you whip up the ToC
# [22:53] <timeless> Cyril: that was only applicable to MSE
# [22:53] <timeless> paulc: no, it was in HTML5 as well
# [22:53] <timeless> ... we went to the Director w/ a question about non-normative references to things that sound like normative text
# [22:53] <timeless> ... you're right there are companion documents
# [22:53] <timeless> ... which say MUST
# [22:54] * Joins: danbri1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [22:54] <timeless> ... but the origin pointer were non-normative
# [22:54] <timeless> ... If you have material that would be better for developers to see directly from html5
# [22:54] <timeless> ... if we could point directly, instead of backwards
# [22:54] <timeless> darobin: if you look at html5 spec
# [22:54] <timeless> ... there are parts that link to inband tracks
# [22:55] <darobin> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-html5-20141028/single-page.html search for [INBANDTRACKS]
# [22:55] <Cyril> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-html5-20141028/single-page.html#sourcing-in-band-text-tracks
# [22:56] <timeless> paulc: so this document is already referred to from html5
# [22:56] <timeless> ... yep
# [22:57] <timeless> Cyril: what words should we use?
# [22:57] <timeless> ... MUST?
# [22:57] <timeless> paulc: doesn't matter
# [22:57] <timeless> ... if you want to use rfc2119
# [22:57] <timeless> ... MUST
# [22:57] * Quits: danbri (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:57] * Joins: nigel (~nigel@public.cloak)
# [22:57] <timeless> ... we have a judgement from the Director
# [22:57] <timeless> ... that as long as the reference is non-normative
# [22:57] <timeless> darobin: yes, write it like a real spec
# [22:57] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:58] <timeless> rubys1: yes
# [22:58] <timeless> Cyril: and if someone claims conformance to HTML5 + INBANDTRACKS
# [22:58] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [22:58] * Joins: jcverdie (~jcverdie@public.cloak)
# [22:58] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:58] <timeless> ... then rfc2119 must applies
# [22:58] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:58] <timeless> paulc: pattern in the past has been to have a F2F in Spring May/April
# [22:58] <timeless> ... and then TPAC
# [22:58] <timeless> ... next year, TPAC is this week in Saporo Japan
# [22:58] * Joins: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [22:59] <Cyril> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html Cyril
# [22:59] <timeless> ... Chairs/Team were looking for hosts
# [22:59] <timeless> ... previously, PayPal hosted a couple of times
# [22:59] <rubys1> http://www.w3.org/2015/11/TPAC/
# [22:59] <timeless> ... Microsoft hosted it in Silicon Valley
# [22:59] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
# [22:59] <timeless> ... we usually hosted in Silicon Valley, we get better attendance
# [22:59] <timeless> plh: difficulty
# [22:59] <timeless> ... we like to get WebApps to meet at the same time
# [23:00] <timeless> ... and when the two get together, others like to meet there then too
# [23:00] <timeless> ... Charter of this group runs out in June
# [23:00] <timeless> ... if you tell me in March you want to meet in April, not going to happen
# [23:00] <timeless> paulc: when I made the arrangements, it was hard 4 months in advance
# [23:00] * Joins: yinagaki (~yinagaki@public.cloak)
# [23:00] <timeless> ... 2+ rooms for 5 days
# [23:00] <timeless> ... not necessarily easy to find
# [23:00] <timeless> ... finding someone to Host+Pay is equally hard
# [23:00] <timeless> ... I don't want to wait until TPAC to meet
# [23:00] <timeless> ... in particular
# [23:01] <timeless> ... i'll be the person to throw a rock at
# [23:01] <timeless> ... if we don't meet
# [23:01] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [23:01] <timeless> ... and I'm concerned about attendance @TPAC
# [23:01] <timeless> ... there's movement for January for Media TF meeting
# [23:01] <timeless> ... many of us have budgets
# [23:01] <timeless> ... we need to think about it
# [23:01] <timeless> ... I'd generally say yes
# [23:02] <timeless> rubys: anyone want to volunteer
# [23:02] <timeless> XXX: we might be able to host
# [23:02] <timeless> Cyril: in Paris
# [23:02] <timeless> ... France
# [23:02] * Joins: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak)
# [23:02] <timeless> XXX: we're a teaching institution
# [23:02] <timeless> ... we have trimesters
# [23:02] <timeless> ... school breaks around Christmas, Easter
# [23:02] * Quits: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:02] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:03] <timeless> ... HTML meets Thu/Fri
# [23:03] <timeless> ... Wed, other groups piggyback
# [23:03] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [23:03] <timeless> ... or HTML meets Mon, Tue
# [23:03] <timeless> ... WebApps meets later
# [23:03] <timeless> ... sometimes they're more realistic on who stays Fri
# [23:03] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aaaa
# [23:03] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:03] <timeless> ... at least those two groups
# [23:03] <timeless> ... could be just four days
# [23:03] <timeless> ... in past, WebCrypto/WebAppSec
# [23:04] <timeless> ... because they want to overlap
# [23:04] <timeless> Cyril: no problem, we've hosted hundreds
# [23:04] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [23:04] <timeless> rubys: Paris in April doesn't sound bad
# [23:04] <timeless> plh: AC meeting is May
# [23:04] <timeless> s/is/is beginning of/
# [23:04] * Joins: ddavis (ddavis@public.cloak)
# [23:04] <timeless> ... some people would like to have that meeting the week before/after
# [23:05] <timeless> paulc: i think you've found one
# [23:05] <timeless> rubys: May 5-7 AC meeting in Paris, France
# [23:05] <timeless> Cyril: i'll take action to confirm availability
# [23:05] * timeless rubys who spoke up beyond Cyril ?
# [23:06] * Quits: nigel (~nigel@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:06] <timeless> paulc: give us an offer
# [23:06] <timeless> ... Canadians will bring beer
# [23:06] * timeless Cyril who did you look to behind+ to right?
# [23:06] <timeless> plh: how late can you book those rooms?
# [23:06] <timeless> ... what would you recommend?
# [23:06] <timeless> XXX: reserve them now for both dates
# [23:06] <timeless> paulc: high cost in losing
# [23:07] <timeless> ... not a high cost in giving them back
# [23:07] <timeless> plh: now i have to ask other WGs
# [23:07] <timeless> XXX: room for 20 people?
# [23:07] <timeless> plh: I need 1 rooms 4 days, 50 people
# [23:07] <jcverdie> s/XXX/JC Dufourd
# [23:07] <timeless> XXX: that's difficult
# [23:07] <timeless> s/JC Dufourd/jcdufourd/
# [23:07] <timeless> s/XXX:/jcdufourd:/
# [23:08] <timeless> s/XXX:/jcdufourd:/
# [23:08] <timeless> s/XXX:/jcdufourd:/
# [23:08] <timeless> s/XXX:/jcdufourd:/
# [23:08] <timeless> jcdufourd: some rooms are teach classrooms, less comfortable, forward oriented, fixed tables
# [23:08] <timeless> plh: we try to limit attendance of other WGs
# [23:08] <timeless> ... but i get slapped
# [23:08] <timeless> ... one room is certain
# [23:09] <timeless> ... in the past, i don't want them to meet, they insisted
# [23:09] <timeless> paulc: plh, AC meeting is Tue-Thu
# [23:10] <timeless> jcdufourd: Jean-Claude Dufourd
# [23:10] <timeless> paulc: no complaints about Paris in spring
# [23:10] <timeless> ... anything else?
# [23:10] <timeless> plh: none from me
# [23:10] <timeless> paulc: round of applause for Josh_Soref
# [23:11] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [23:11] <timeless> paulc: thank you
# [23:11] <joesteele> +1 -- Josh you are awesome
# [23:11] <rubys> +1
# [23:11] <myakura> +1
# [23:11] <timeless> ... I know i'll benefit from a good mintues
# [23:11] * Quits: LJWatson (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("Carpe diem")
# [23:11] <timeless> s/tues/utes/
# [23:11] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [23:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara, Mark_Vickers, +1.408.536.aaaa
# [23:11] <Zakim> Santabarbara has paulc, rubys, timeless, darobin
# [23:11] <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
# [23:11] <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aaaa
# [23:11] * Quits: joesteele (~joesteele@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
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# [23:12] <timeless> ... thanks to W3C for arranging / hosting us here at the Marriott
# [23:12] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [23:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [23:14] <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
# [23:14] <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
# [23:14] * trackbot is ending a teleconference.
# [23:14] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
# [23:14] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been BobLund, paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele, darobin, Domenic, ddorwin, Aaron_Colwell, Mark_Vickers, +1.408.536.aaaa
# [23:14] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [23:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html trackbot
# [23:14] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
# [23:14] <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-actions.rdf :
# [23:14] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Robin to triage new WHATWG updates, HTML bugs, Landscape document in order to list priority content for modules [1]
# [23:14] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T17-10-37
# [23:14] <Zakim> -Santabarbara
# [23:15] <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:30AM has ended
# [23:15] <Zakim> Attendees were BobLund, paulc, rubys, timeless, joesteele, darobin, Domenic, ddorwin, Aaron_Colwell, Mark_Vickers, +1.408.536.aaaa
# [23:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: paulc prepare CfC concerning moving DOM4 to the new process [2]
# [23:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T21-29-04
# [23:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: paulc to contact public identifiers and Form HTTP Extension proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the specs [3]
# [23:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T21-36-08
# [23:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: paulc - Contact polyglot proponents to ask what they plan to do w/ the spec [4]
# [23:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T21-37-41
# [23:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: darobin to file bugs on implementors re: HTML JSON form submission [5]
# [23:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T21-40-20
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# Session Close: Sat Nov 01 00:00:00 2014

The end :)