/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2015-10-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 08 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> tantek: thanks for the heads-up
  4. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> fixed now
  5. # [00:06] <MikeSmith> ah man :( https://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/semantics.html#the-picture-element is now coming back "Service Temporarily Unavailable"
  6. # [00:06] <MikeSmith> and I cannot fix that
  7. # [00:06] <tantek> time for #sysreq?
  8. # [00:06] <tantek> MikeSmith - also a good reason to STOP getting bad specs published at W3C in TR space
  9. # [00:07] <tantek> rather, terminating bad specs as notes
  10. # [00:07] <tantek> with perhaps strong enough warnings so people don't treat them as specs
  11. # [00:07] <tantek> e.g. that online HTML5 course "mooc"? that W3C is promoting that dives into "HTML5 microdata" in its first week that is confusing the crap out of people
  12. # [00:09] * Joins: [Beta] (~beta@public.cloak)
  13. # [00:09] <tantek> e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-06#t1444189881419
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  17. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> tantek: the developers of those course materials are highly responsive to feedback
  18. # [00:18] <tantek> not in this case
  19. # [00:18] <MikeSmith> oh, that's not good, then
  20. # [00:18] <MikeSmith> and we should do something about that
  21. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> if you want to loop me in on it somewhere where I can follow up myself, I will do that
  22. # [00:19] <tantek> basically, I'm || this close to pulling the trigger on raising it to the AB, that the HTML5 mooc that the W3C keeps bragging about is filled with crap that is not HTML5
  23. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> not that I have any real power over it either
  24. # [00:19] <tantek> I've seen what you can do :)
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  26. # [00:20] <MikeSmith> tantek: I actually would suggest that raising it should be raised to the AB
  27. # [00:20] * Quits: jcraig_ (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig_)
  28. # [00:20] <MikeSmith> it is something that risks degrading the organizational value of the W3C to the orgs and community that are investing time and money in the W3C
  29. # [00:21] <tantek> agreed
  30. # [00:21] <tantek> ok here's a screenshot of their materials: https://ben.thatmustbe.me/static/W3Cx-2.jpg (demonstrating the problem)
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  32. # [00:21] * MikeSmith looks
  33. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> oh boy
  34. # [00:21] <tantek> even in the outline explicitly https://ben.thatmustbe.me/static/W3Cx.jpg
  35. # [00:22] <tantek> from the first screenshot (for the record) "Microdata is the HTML5 way" LOL no.
  36. # [00:23] <tantek> FYI, This was pointed out to me by Ben Roberts, when he confronted the instructure Michel Buffa, he admitted Steve Faulkner (HTMLWG) raised the same concern. (but did nothing about it)
  37. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> yeah as many specific gaffes like that which can be pointed out, the better
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  40. # [00:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
  41. # [00:24] <tantek> here's another https://ben.thatmustbe.me/static/W3Cx-3.jpg
  42. # [00:24] <tantek> where near the bottom you can see that clearly it's a promo thing for schema
  43. # [00:25] <MikeSmith> Steve volunteered time, completely uncompensated, and helped try to get as many things fixed as he can (and that is something, because Steve basically does client work for a living and is always on the clock, so time he spends on something like this is real time/money he could otherwise be booking to some client work)
  44. # [00:25] * MikeSmith looks
  45. # [00:26] <tantek> exactly
  46. # [00:26] <tantek> and then W3C releases press releases about it http://www.w3.org/2015/09/w3cx-xseries.html.en
  47. # [00:27] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  48. # [00:27] <MikeSmith> so yeah I support bringing this up with that AB if you want to do that, and feel free to loop me in if you want. I don't know what better way to escalate it
  49. # [00:27] * MikeSmith looks
  50. # [00:27] <tantek> W3C PR is promoting something as teaching HTML5, that is not teaching HTML5
  51. # [00:27] <tantek> I suggest pointing these flaws out direclty to Karen Myers too since that's the PR contact at the bottom
  52. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> well yeah along with the fact that the partisan weight within the W3C organizationally to begin with is strongly against Microdata, at least when it's offered up without any mention of RDFa
  53. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> so this is internally inconsistent even with W3C consensus around this stuff
  54. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> as far as I can see from what you cited
  55. # [00:30] <MikeSmith> to be clear, I am not offering to bring this up myself with Karen nor anybody else
  56. # [00:30] <MikeSmith> it's not my barbecue
  57. # [00:31] <MikeSmith> and I already have territorial acrimony to deal with around other things I've tried to give my views on that conflict with positions taken by others on the team
  58. # [00:32] <MikeSmith> so I am not going to make myself the point person for trying to get others to fix the course-content problems
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  60. # [00:43] <tantek> totally fair - just asking if you can help be the messenger
  61. # [00:44] <tantek> you can point out that as your role of staff / activity related to HTML(5) WG, you were asked to look into this by a concerned member of the AB
  62. # [00:44] <tantek> and that I chose to do so (contact W3C staff about it) first, before raising it as a big issue within the AB, hopefully giving W3T a chance to handle it before it becomes an AB issue.
  63. # [00:45] <tantek> since you seemed like the appropriate topic-area W3C staff, being involved with the WG etc.
  64. # [00:45] <tantek> if W3T does not act on it, then yes you can say that I will raise it to the AB as an AB issue.
  65. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> I cannot be the messenger on this, if by that you mean the one to write up e-mail about it
  66. # [00:49] <MikeSmith> to be clear, I am not the current team contact for the HTML work, nor will I be for the new Web Platform WG
  67. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> that said, I do have some responsibility for the W3C technical program
  68. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> but this course materials are not part of the W3C technical program
  69. # [00:51] <MikeSmith> they are ancillary to it and are handled by other people on the team whose activities and responsibilities are quite separate from mine
  70. # [00:54] <MikeSmith> I would speculate that in fact a message coming from you or somebody other than me on this might carry a lot more weight and get a lot more attention and response than one coming from me
  71. # [00:57] <tantek> ok that is good to know
  72. # [00:57] <tantek> who is the current team contact for the HTML work, and will be for the new Web Platform WG? plh?
  73. # [00:57] <tantek> who is the team contact for W3C course materials?
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  78. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> tantek: stepped out for a bit and back now
  79. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> the team contact for the HTML work is effectively plh
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  81. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> it was Robin but as yet we have no replacement for Robin and I am not volunteering to be his replacement
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  85. # [01:42] <MikeSmith> the team contact for the course materials is Marie-Claire
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