/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2010-12-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Dec 11 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  37. # [01:57] <SergeantScar> question for any of you. use a proxy for IRC? if so.. which one?
  38. # [01:58] <paul_irish> nah i dont
  39. # [01:59] <paul_irish> (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-tceeiwngojanzzrs)
  40. # [01:59] <paul_irish> not when i got a hostmask that l33t
  41. # [01:59] <SergeantScar> ah, hostmask. that is a good idea
  42. # [01:59] <tw2113> i still have my fedora one
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  44. # [02:00] <SergeantScar> cool.
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  73. # [04:43] <jort> Is anyone here?
  74. # [04:51] <paul_irish> yes
  75. # [04:51] <paul_irish> hi jort
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  78. # [04:56] <jort> hi paul_irish, I have a question about html... I thought "<div></div>" was the same as "<div />"? Am I wrong or is firefox?
  79. # [04:56] <paul_irish> yah its pretty much the same
  80. # [04:57] <paul_irish> but thats not true with all elements
  81. # [04:57] <paul_irish> and FF is particular bitchy about selfclosing
  82. # [04:57] <paul_irish> but i dont remember it with divs in partic
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  98. # [05:52] <ron_frown> anyone got recommendations or examples on how to efficiently display and style tabular data?
  99. # [05:56] <dilvie> <table>
  100. # [05:57] <dilvie> so today I did some cross browser testing to see if you can use obnoxiously-long-data-namespaces-in-the-new-data-attribute-safely
  101. # [05:58] <dilvie> tested on about a billion browsers.
  102. # [05:58] <dilvie> well, not quite a billion
  103. # [05:58] <dilvie> didn't try to test the extreme limits.. just 422 character attribute names
  104. # [05:58] <dilvie> http://ericleads.com/2010/12/cross-browser-testing-for-html-attribute-lengths/
  105. # [05:59] <dilvie> in case you're curious... it works just fine. Feel free to create data-namespaces-that-are-way-too-friggin-deep-to-be-of-any-practical-value
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  111. # [06:13] <ron_frown> so as far as html5 goes, theres really nothing above and beyond your traditional html for styling
  112. # [06:15] <ron_frown> thats more of a css3 and tables
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  116. # [07:33] <paul_irish> dilvie: i tried a classname that was like 30k long
  117. # [07:33] <paul_irish> worked fine everywhere
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  119. # [07:35] <HAITI> yes w/ a grid
  120. # [07:36] <HAITI> pardon me
  121. # [07:36] <HAITI> #html5
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  136. # [09:37] <dilvie> paul_irish: Very cool. Now I just need to come up with a silly reason to use 30k attribute names -- just because we can.
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  153. # [11:08] <amagee> hey i want to create an html5 canvas or svg app where a user can create different shapes (mainly circles and ellipses) and then be able to select them and drag/drop them. will any of the html5 libraries help with detecting which shape the user has clicked/dragged, or is that something i have to handle myself?
  154. # [11:10] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.236.68) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  155. # [11:10] <obert-> jquery draggable?
  156. # [11:11] <amagee> obert-: use that with an svg shape?
  157. # [11:12] <obert-> no idea
  158. # [11:12] <amagee> is that what you'd recommend?
  159. # [11:13] <obert-> amagee no idea about a html5 lib :)
  160. # [11:13] <amagee> ok
  161. # [11:14] <amagee> i'm just really new to this stuff.. i'm not sure whether to use canvas, svg or something else
  162. # [11:14] <amagee> svg seems more appropriate as i can attach handlers to svg elements, which doesn't seem to have any analog in canvas as far as i can see
  163. # [11:14] <obert-> me too.just saying to had saw that jquery draggable thing
  164. # [11:15] <amagee> ok, fair enough
  165. # [11:15] <amagee> thanks
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  167. # [11:17] <obert-> let me know if you find something funny
  168. # [11:17] <amagee> funny? :P
  169. # [11:18] <obert-> interesting
  170. # [11:18] <amagee> will do :)
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  173. # [11:30] <andr0id> hey!!!!!!!
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  184. # [12:50] <phrearch> hi
  185. # [12:58] <phrearch> anyone here uses websockets?
  186. # [12:58] <jetienne> not anymore :)
  187. # [12:58] <jetienne> phrearch: yes
  188. # [12:58] <phrearch> jetienne: what kind of messaging protocol do you use?
  189. # [12:58] <jetienne> phrearch: but huge security issue appears 3 days ago. so browser support is going down
  190. # [12:59] <jetienne> phrearch: ? well i send string in json
  191. # [12:59] <phrearch> jetienne: thats only until the handshake is fixed i think
  192. # [12:59] <jetienne> phrearch: me too. but then you need to get all browser to update, and socket io node to update too
  193. # [12:59] <jetienne> i think it will be several months at best
  194. # [13:00] <phrearch> im using a twisted python implementation, which shouldnt be hard to adapt
  195. # [13:00] <phrearch> im studying a way how to make routing over websockets most effective. did you think of a way how to handle function routing?
  196. # [13:00] <phrearch> im currently using something like https://github.com/phrearch/hwios/wiki/Hwm
  197. # [13:01] <phrearch> for server=>client function calls, im thinking of making urls as well
  198. # [13:01] <phrearch> like client_uuid/path/to/resource/
  199. # [13:01] <jetienne> phrearch: what you want to add routing on the server side ?
  200. # [13:02] <jetienne> good idea. even in the client side thinking abou tit
  201. # [13:02] <phrearch> im a bit in doubt whether i should add a queue to process websocket messages
  202. # [13:02] <phrearch> having a unique uri to the client, would make it possible to deliver messages after the client reconnects later
  203. # [13:03] <phrearch> currently im using only a reference to the transport object
  204. # [13:03] <jetienne> phrearch: keep it simple
  205. # [13:03] <jetienne> phrearch: all the reconnection and backlog seems a lot.
  206. # [13:03] <jetienne> phrearch: i havent thought about this
  207. # [13:03] <phrearch> yea, ill try to make it simple
  208. # [13:04] <phrearch> urls are really nice to simulate get/post parameters in a websocket message
  209. # [13:04] <jetienne> phrearch: personnaly i send event like message. then you push the message received from the websocket into a event dispatcher, and up to the implementation to know what to do with those message/event
  210. # [13:04] <phrearch> yea, im using the same kinda system
  211. # [13:05] <phrearch> i added a simple jquery plugin to handle the websocket events and to add methods
  212. # [13:05] <phrearch> but maybe i better combine that with jquery's bind event later
  213. # [13:05] <phrearch> currently only one function can subscribe to an event
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  215. # [13:06] <phrearch> it used jsonrpc as protocol at first, but the stuff in the protocol didnt seem to make sense
  216. # [13:07] <phrearch> it doesnt need to know its jsonrpc v2 on each call, or have an id i think
  217. # [13:08] <phrearch> did you see the collaborative processing.js environment?
  218. # [13:08] <phrearch> it would be cool to add a collaborative processing editor for students
  219. # [13:08] <jetienne> phrearch: nope i dunno it.
  220. # [13:09] <jetienne> my reflex would be to be as standard as possible and as webby as possible
  221. # [13:09] <phrearch> http://www.hascanvas.com/
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  223. # [13:09] <phrearch> yea
  224. # [13:10] <phrearch> its based on a javascript port of processing: http://processingjs.org/
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  226. # [13:10] <jetienne> phrearch: is hadcanvas your stuff ?
  227. # [13:11] <phrearch> jetienne: nope, i just saw it when looking for a collaborative code editor
  228. # [13:11] <phrearch> im developing an opensource websocket cms called hwios
  229. # [13:11] <jetienne> phrearch: the one from mozilla made a lot of buzz, dunno how good it is in practice
  230. # [13:12] <phrearch> yea, respin or something
  231. # [13:12] <phrearch> im focussing on http://www.jinfinote.com/
  232. # [13:12] <phrearch> that guy ported the infinote protocol to a clientside implementation
  233. # [13:13] <phrearch> its pretty cool. allows you to collaboratively edit a textbox
  234. # [13:13] <jetienne> nice indeed
  235. # [13:13] <phrearch> all it needs is a serverside implementation to keep the logs sane.
  236. # [13:14] <jetienne> phrearch: would it be suitable to plug that into gist/github kinda
  237. # [13:14] <phrearch> the source?
  238. # [13:15] <jetienne> phrearch: out of the blue, i was thinking "you edit the stuff with many people, but keep track of the modification with git"
  239. # [13:15] <jetienne> and git on the web, may be gist
  240. # [13:16] <phrearch> ah, well im not sure whether that works. i havent come up with a history system in the first place
  241. # [13:16] <phrearch> my first thought was that the history will be based on the same infinote protocol that the client uses
  242. # [13:16] <jetienne> phrearch: nice too
  243. # [13:17] <phrearch> there are multiple options i guess, but i want it to have a time-slider just like gwave
  244. # [13:18] <phrearch> not sure if that can be mixed with git then
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  246. # [13:19] <jetienne> phrearch: git can do that. i was thinking about git because this currently is the natural choise for version control
  247. # [13:19] <jetienne> phrearch: and with github, websupport is good
  248. # [13:22] <phrearch> are there some git libraries for python?
  249. # [13:23] <phrearch> hm http://gitorious.org/git-python
  250. # [13:23] <phrearch> but having a git repository to store a wiki's content...i dont know
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  253. # [13:30] <jetienne> phrearch: github is doing it why not you :)
  254. # [13:30] <jetienne> https://github.com/blog/699-making-github-more-open-git-backed-wikis
  255. # [13:30] <phrearch> well, github has git as their core service
  256. # [13:30] <phrearch> thanks, ill read up
  257. # [13:31] <jetienne> phrearch: btw just suggesting here
  258. # [13:31] <phrearch> yea, ill try to understand the pro's and cons
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  260. # [13:33] <phrearch> yea thats something really useful, being able to easily show the changes between versions
  261. # [13:35] <phrearch> so accessing a repo can be as easy as creating it with git init, and then use gitpython to read from it?
  262. # [13:37] <phrearch> hm, this could work :)
  263. # [13:38] <jetienne> phrearch: depends on your goal here
  264. # [13:38] <phrearch> thanks for bringing it up
  265. # [13:39] <phrearch> well, it should be integrated with the cms
  266. # [13:39] <jetienne> phrearch: but my best advice would be "keep it simple" :)
  267. # [13:39] <phrearch> well, using git as backend history storage makes sense
  268. # [13:39] <jetienne> phrearch: keep it atomic. aka do one thing but do it well
  269. # [13:39] <phrearch> yea, im not trying to reinvent the wheel :)
  270. # [13:40] <phrearch> i only need some way to reconstruct the whole article on the serverside, and save versions once in a while or after a save button is pressed
  271. # [13:42] <phrearch> one problem i can see is that its hard to search through articles when using git
  272. # [13:42] <phrearch> databases have these nice querying mechanisms
  273. # [13:45] <jetienne> phrearch: yep dunno if git is suitable
  274. # [13:45] <jetienne> phrearch: going for lunch, have fun and good luck ;)
  275. # [13:45] <phrearch> thanks! bon appetit
  276. # [13:46] <phrearch> will be posting a wiki-demo soon hopefully :-)\
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  281. # [14:11] <phrearch> sweet: https://github.com/kanaka/noVNC
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  283. # [14:21] <ron_frown> anyone recommend more of a best practices site for ui
  284. # [14:22] <ron_frown> I am contemplating on how to build a ui around context chooser, like the idea of tabs
  285. # [14:22] <ron_frown> but just not tabs =)
  286. # [14:22] <ron_frown> maybe not best practices
  287. # [14:22] <ron_frown> but usability
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  289. # [14:28] <phrearch> hm im using jquery ui
  290. # [14:28] <phrearch> it has a css class framework thats really nice
  291. # [14:29] <phrearch> another useful thing about jquery ui is that its easy to make new templates, using the themeroller app
  292. # [14:29] <ron_frown> bleh
  293. # [14:29] <ron_frown> I am over jquery
  294. # [14:29] <ron_frown> seems like knd of a hack
  295. # [14:29] <ron_frown> mootools for some reason gives me more of a grown up feel
  296. # [14:29] <phrearch> hm, i havent had that feeling yet
  297. # [14:30] <phrearch> im sure mootools may have something simular
  298. # [14:30] * moo_ highligh highlight
  299. # [14:30] <phrearch> http://code.google.com/p/mootools-ui/
  300. # [14:32] <ron_frown> my question is more of a practice, not so much of a html or js question
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  303. # [14:39] <phrearch> hm, i guess having a look at the filament group blog is useful
  304. # [14:40] <ron_frown> dont know what that is
  305. # [14:40] <phrearch> they have all kinds of useful info on widget elements and design
  306. # [14:40] <phrearch> http://www.filamentgroup.com/lab/jquery_ui_selectmenu_an_aria_accessible_plugin_for_styling_a_html_select/
  307. # [14:40] <phrearch> i think they made jquery_ui as well
  308. # [14:40] <ron_frown> I'm not saying I wont ever use it
  309. # [14:40] <ron_frown> just that it wouldnt be my first pick
  310. # [14:41] <phrearch> there are some general design things i think they did pretty good
  311. # [14:41] <phrearch> i guess the most important thing they did is making a design consistent with default widgets and css classes for all kinds of things
  312. # [14:41] <phrearch> but thats a bit vague :)
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  314. # [14:45] <Wes-> I want to turn elements on and off from script -- is there a better way in HTML5 to define this type of behaviour other than just the ol' "make up your own tag, dig for it in the DOM, and update each element's style.display?"
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  316. # [14:49] <ron_frown> what?
  317. # [14:49] <ron_frown> with jquery and mootools you have a rich selector api
  318. # [14:49] <ron_frown> and others
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  321. # [14:51] <Wes-> ron_frown: That's just one way of iterating through the DOM. ;) The real question - is inventing tags and giving them behaviour kosher in HTML5, and/or has HTML5 solved this problem in a better way?
  322. # [14:52] <Wes-> ISTR, FE, that xhtml made tag-invention a pain due to DTDs
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  324. # [14:53] <Dorward> Wes-: No. Class names are still the way forward. You couldn't make up your own elements in XHTML either - only produce mixed-namespace documents (which aren't text/html kosher)
  325. # [14:54] <Wes-> Dorward: Oh! Of course - you're suggesting I use an existing container, e.g. a span, give those a user-defined class name (rather than a user-defined tag) and use HTML5 getElementsByClassName() or similar to apply the behaviour I want
  326. # [14:54] <Wes-> That makes good sense!
  327. # [14:56] <Dorward> Wes-: If you are wanting to show/hide them, then I'd have body.no-foo .foo { display: none; } and then just change the className on the body rather than looping over all the elements.
  328. # [14:59] <Wes-> Dorward: I'm trying to figure out an easy way to show/hide a few elements per form so I can reuse add/edit forms on an app I'm building. This is because the forms vary slightly in layout if they are used to add an item as opposed to edit an item -- and I don't want to hard-code that info in script, but rather just let the script turn certain elements on/off as the screen is shown,...
  329. # [14:59] <Wes-> ...depending on the mode it needs to operate in
  330. # [14:59] <Wes-> Dorward: simplified example of what I want to express at the layout level: <h3><mode class=edit>Edit</mode><mode class=add>Add> a widget</h3>
  331. # [15:00] <Dorward> Wes-: You really should handle this by changing the HTML generated by the script. A good rule of thumb is "If it doesn't make sense when CSS is turned off, then you're doing it wrong"
  332. # [15:01] <Wes-> Dorward: That is a good rule of thumb -- but I prefer to generate my HTML with a text editor than a script
  333. # [15:02] <Dorward> Then do it manually.
  334. # [15:03] <Wes-> Dorward: Then I wind up with 2 pages for each form, which are nearly but not quite identical
  335. # [15:03] <Wes-> Here's a question for you
  336. # [15:03] <Wes-> say you were a document that was a form and associated documenation (no style, straight up layout)
  337. # [15:03] <Wes-> It wound up being ~4KB
  338. # [15:03] <Wes-> Now you need exactly that page, but you need to change 4 or 5 words
  339. # [15:04] <Dorward> Then all hail Template-Toolkit (or whatever your template language of choice is)
  340. # [15:05] <Wes-> do you a) generate both pages completely in script, b) write a script that tweaks the DOM with layout knowledge embedded in the script, c) write two pages, d) write a script that looks at the document and tweaks the elements based on info in the page?
  341. # [15:05] <Wes-> Dorward: Hm, that's a good 6th option
  342. # [15:05] <Dorward> That's choice (a) as far as I'm concerned.
  343. # [15:06] <Wes-> True, except I'm trying to avoid add server-side deps and don't really want to write a template system
  344. # [15:06] <Wes-> Hm - of course, if I can refactor to XHTML, I can read in the pages as E4X, apply E4X selects and emit XHTML fairly cheaply
  345. # [15:09] <Wes-> Which actually means that I'm doing exactly the same thing on the server that I was proposing doing on the client
  346. # [15:09] <Wes-> Hm.
  347. # [15:11] <Wes-> By the way, whoever put the html5rocks.com slides together, you rock!
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  350. # [15:37] <Ms2ger> Wes-, you don't invent your own elements. You can use div and span with classes
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  370. # [18:06] <Arimil> The HTML5 doctype is just <!DOCTYPE HTML> right?
  371. # [18:06] <nimbupani> yes
  372. # [18:06] <Arimil> Alright thanks.
  373. # [18:23] <paul_irish> no prob!
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  381. # [18:39] <paul_irish> nimbupani: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4407891/html5-boilerplate-with-blueprint-css
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  383. # [18:39] <nimbupani> yeah I answered one before :)
  384. # [18:40] <paul_irish> kay
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  388. # [18:45] <Arimil> In HTML5 <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style.css" /> is incorrect right? Shouldn't it be <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style.css">
  389. # [18:45] <Arimil> > vs /> if you didn't see it
  390. # [18:47] <Arimil> I do believe /> had something to do with XML which is not in HTML5.
  391. # [18:47] <nimbupani> ?g diveintohtml5 @ Arimil
  392. # [18:47] <bot-t> Arimil, Dive Into HTML5 - http://diveintohtml5.org/
  393. # [18:47] <nimbupani> read that Arimil
  394. # [18:47] <Arimil> thanks
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  405. # [19:08] <ldexterldesign> hey, could anyone recommend a good html5 book?
  406. # [19:08] <paul_irish> ?g diveintohtml5 @ ldexterldesign
  407. # [19:08] <bot-t> ldexterldesign, Dive Into HTML5 - http://diveintohtml5.org/
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  409. # [19:09] <paul_irish> divya you saw necolas mentioned you
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  411. # [19:11] <nimbupani> where?
  412. # [19:12] <nimbupani> well we were @ replying back and forth on twittz
  413. # [19:13] <nimbupani> OH
  414. # [19:13] <nimbupani> i see
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  416. # [19:16] <ldexterldesign> paul_irish: oooo, forgot about this
  417. # [19:16] <ldexterldesign> paul_irish: hope there's a pdf somewhere
  418. # [19:17] <ldexterldesign> paul_irish: http://www.amazon.com/HTML5-Up-Running-Mark-Pilgrim/dp/0596806027?ie=UTF8&tag=diveintomark-20&creativeASIN=0596806027
  419. # [19:17] <paul_irish> yes?
  420. # [19:19] <ldexterldesign> i'd like a non-web document, otherwise i'll just go on facebook and look at fit girls
  421. # [19:20] <nimbupani> i think latter would be a good idea.
  422. # [19:21] <nimbupani> re: http://nicolasgallagher.com/css-drop-shadows-without-images/ I think his rationale for supporting firefox 3 is flawed
  423. # [19:21] <nimbupani> coz according to caniuse.com firefox 3 doesnt even support box shadows
  424. # [19:22] <nimbupani> http://caniuse.com/#search=box-shadow
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  432. # [19:53] <Arimil> nimbupani: Thanks for that I read some of it but I need to get back to work and I don't really see this book answering my question. It may have ansewred it indirectly. It said XHTML works in HTML5 but it didn't say anything about closing tags.
  433. # [19:53] <nimbupani> thats what it means Arimil
  434. # [19:54] <nimbupani> XHTML syntax is what the book talked about.
  435. # [19:54] <Arimil> Yeah, I thought someone told me a while ago that html5 didn't use /> tags but it was correct to do <br> but I guess I was wrong.
  436. # [19:58] <nimbupani> yes.
  437. # [19:58] <nimbupani> i mean yes that is an incorrect assumption.
  438. # [19:58] <Arimil> Alright, thanks.
  439. # [20:08] <Dorward> Arimil: <br> is correct. (<br/> is also correct. It lets you use that syntax if you are an XML junkie)
  440. # [20:09] <Arimil> Oh even better lol :p
  441. # [20:09] <Arimil> Thanks a lot.
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  481. # [21:17] <FalsAlarm> can html5 do everything flash currently can?
  482. # [21:18] <FalsAlarm> or actionscript can
  483. # [21:18] <nimbupani> no
  484. # [21:18] <nimbupani> but the specs are moving towards that.
  485. # [21:18] <FalsAlarm> vector graphics?
  486. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> SVG
  487. # [21:19] <FalsAlarm> what about hardware gpu acceleration?
  488. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> Sure
  489. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> Browsers are implementing that, and you don't need to do anything for it
  490. # [21:19] <FalsAlarm> very cool, how many year until html5 becomes mainstream?
  491. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> It is mainstream already :)
  492. # [21:20] <FalsAlarm> ok that was a control question that i already know the answer too, you just been busted
  493. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> At least, some parts are, and some parts are still distant future
  494. # [21:21] <FalsAlarm> cool
  495. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> HTML5 is too big to give a meaningful answer to your question, I'm afraid
  496. # [21:24] <FalsAlarm> cant wait
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  501. # [21:38] <paul_irish> you just been busted!
  502. # [21:46] <paul_irish> bot-t: tell nimbupani http://macperformanceguide.com/ boilerplattttttte
  503. # [21:46] <bot-t> paul_irish, Okay.
  504. # [21:52] <dilvie> haha
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  506. # [21:53] <dilvie> falsalargm: what are you waiting for?
  507. # [21:53] <dilvie> falsalarm: what are you waiting for?
  508. # [21:54] <FalsAlarm> waiting for the majority of users to be using a web browser that supports htmls5
  509. # [21:54] <FalsAlarm> html5
  510. # [21:55] <FalsAlarm> when 5% of the worlds surfers aren't using a web browser that supports html5, i'll start using at that moment
  511. # [21:55] <FalsAlarm> :)
  512. # [21:55] <Rik`> FalsAlarm: what does "support HTML5 means" ?
  513. # [21:55] <Rik`> you just need to look at the features you need
  514. # [21:56] <FalsAlarm> ya that's true
  515. # [21:57] <dilvie> falsalarm: A whole lot of HTML5 is already supported in current browsers dating back to IE6 and older. Check out boilerplate, h5Validate, etc..
  516. # [21:58] <FalsAlarm> i'll probably wait for someone to make a smooth library like one that is comparable to the actionscript 3 librar
  517. # [21:59] <FalsAlarm> has base object, x, y positions on objects, Sprites, MovieClips, etc
  518. # [21:59] <FalsAlarm> a nice IDE for drawing and doing design type work on those objects
  519. # [21:59] <FalsAlarm> code hinting :)
  520. # [22:01] <FalsAlarm> anyone working on those?
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  525. # [22:08] <FalsAlarm> maybe i should be the guy to make that library
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  528. # [22:14] <paul_irish> FalsAlarm: yah you should.
  529. # [22:15] <paul_irish> honestly i think we need more libraries that help transition y'all flash folks into this side of things
  530. # [22:19] <cardona507> wurd
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  534. # [22:25] <FalsAlarm> think up a real good name for the library and i'll startup a open source project for this task
  535. # [22:26] <FalsAlarm> FlashToHtmlConversion library, your turn
  536. # [22:26] <FalsAlarm> Html5Won library, your turn
  537. # [22:26] <FalsAlarm> :)
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  539. # [22:26] <FalsAlarm> Html5Forever sounds like a good one ?
  540. # [22:28] <paul_irish> Stage.js
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  542. # [22:31] <dilvie> falsalarm: by "code hinting" do you mean intellisense?
  543. # [22:32] <FalsAlarm> yes
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  553. # [22:59] <phrearch> hm, processing.js ? :)
  554. # [23:02] <cardona507> bridgeloan.js
  555. # [23:02] <cardona507> ?
  556. # [23:03] <cardona507> coldturkey.js?
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The end :)