/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2010-12-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 30 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  4. # [00:09] <kolor> whats wrong with hsl() ?
  5. # [00:09] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Leaving)
  6. # [00:10] <nimbupani> who says anything is wrong with hsl?
  7. # [00:10] <bckenny> it smells funny
  8. # [00:10] <kolor> i mean guy asked for a tint()
  9. # [00:10] <kolor> why not use hsl
  10. # [00:11] <BrianBlakely> kolor: Hi, HSL is just a way of describing a color
  11. # [00:12] <BrianBlakely> "tint" is a way of altering an existing element's overall color
  12. # [00:13] <BrianBlakely> Its text, background, etc
  13. # [00:13] <nimbupani> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tint-tone-shade.svg
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  15. # [00:13] <nimbupani> bckenny is a hsl-racist
  16. # [00:13] <BrianBlakely> nimbupani: This is what I was saying before
  17. # [00:13] <BrianBlakely> SS4 needs a "tint" property
  18. # [00:13] <BrianBlakely> 5:35
  19. # [00:13] <BrianBlakely> Like to tint the visible pixels of an element
  20. # [00:13] <BrianBlakely> 5:35
  21. # [00:13] <BrianBlakely> Like, if I have an icon, and I want to change its color from green to red or somesuch
  22. # [00:13] <BrianBlakely> 5:36
  23. # [00:13] <BrianBlakely> tint: irc://irc.freenode.net/#f00 0.5;  // Maybe it has a strength setting as well, or maybe it should just require RGBa
  24. # [00:14] <BrianBlakely> CSS4*
  25. # [00:15] <nimbupani> well changing color from green to red is hardly tinting.
  26. # [00:22] <BrianBlakely> Well shucks nimbupani, call it "hue" then
  27. # [00:23] <nimbupani> yeah i hope calc property gets the attention back.
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  35. # [00:32] <Etherael> What's the situation with html5 and customised scroll areas, such as in html4 you would have used a styled div with extensive customised javascript to pull off?
  36. # [00:34] <BrianBlakely> Etherael: No change
  37. # [00:35] <BrianBlakely> nimbupani: I'd like to see something to the tune of — width: 10%; height: elem.width; — for perfectly square elements
  38. # [00:35] <BrianBlakely> nimbupani: That might be possible with a revised calc
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  41. # [00:37] <nimbupani> i hope it happens BrianBlakely there are people who resist adding such calculations in CSS
  42. # [00:38] <BrianBlakely> nimbupani: I personally think .style should be excluded from JS use as much as is feasible
  43. # [00:39] <BrianBlakely> BTW, one handy thing I've been doing for square elements — padding: 0 10%; width: 0; height: 0;
  44. # [00:39] <BrianBlakely> Of course, this is for specific purposes, not for elements with visible content
  45. # [00:40] <BrianBlakely> Mostly just image replacement (fueled by background-size)
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  47. # [00:41] <BrianBlakely> Oh, actually the padding value should be padding: 10%;
  48. # [00:41] <BrianBlakely> That will always use the width of the parent as a reference, so the top/bottom values will match the left/right
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  50. # [00:57] <Etherael> That sounds a little ambiguous due to order of evaluation though.
  51. # [00:58] <Etherael> What you want is for the inherited property to be equal to the evaluated amount of the parent property, but it might be misinterpreted to mean that you want the inhereted property to be a copy of the parent property, thus evaluated separately.
  52. # [01:04] <BrianBlakely> Etherael: Yeah, there would need to be a distinction between the computed style and the property value
  53. # [01:05] <BrianBlakely> Getting up-to-date computed style is a glaring hole in CSS (well, one of them :P)
  54. # [01:05] <Etherael> Maybe something like you can do in various languages where you can distinguish between a property and a method.
  55. # [01:05] <Etherael> element.value element[:value]
  56. # [01:07] <BrianBlakely> Time to go home, laytah
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  80. # [02:27] <grantg> Is the canvas 2d api covered here?
  81. # [02:27] <grantg> I'm wondering if the canvas api could ever include a color palette api.
  82. # [02:28] <grantg> After working with doing a javascript gameboy color emulator, it got me thinking.
  83. # [02:28] * Joins: ajpiano (~ajpiano@cpe-68-173-41-149.nyc.res.rr.com)
  84. # [02:28] <grantg> It can allow you to change coloring of multiple tiles on the fly, so why not use it as a 2d api for canvas?
  85. # [02:29] <grantg> anyone have an opinion on this?
  86. # [02:29] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
  87. # [02:30] <grantg> (Also, do NOT ask me for a ROM of Pokemon). :/
  88. # [02:31] <grantg> My current work is focused on my WIP js GBA emulator, but the GBC emulator is @ http://www.grantgalitz.org/gameboy/
  89. # [02:32] <grantg> And use Firefox 4 with it, since only firefox 4 right now has a native audio api.
  90. # [02:32] <grantg> Audio kind of works in chrome, but through a hacky and slow data uri trick that involves creating wav pcm data in js and packaging it through a special way.
  91. # [02:33] <tw2113> give them time, it'll all come around in the end
  92. # [02:33] <grantg> tw2113: ?
  93. # [02:34] <grantg> tw2113: I'm asking if there should or could be a color palette api added to the current 2d api.
  94. # [02:35] <tw2113> i was just talking about browser support for X browser
  95. # [02:35] <tw2113> :D
  96. # [02:35] <grantg> Where mappings to the paletting could be done by matching a pixel-component range to a platte to only target x pixels.
  97. # [02:35] <grantg> similar to how masking is done for green screens.
  98. # [02:36] <grantg> But make it so it can be wired in real api, so to possibly be hardware accelerated later on.
  99. # [02:37] <grantg> tw2113: Right now I compute *all* the graphics in javascript.
  100. # [02:37] <grantg> Since the canvas api isn't good enough.
  101. # [02:37] <grantg> Since I need to do things super fast and at one scan line at a time.
  102. # [02:37] <tw2113> :P
  103. # [02:38] <grantg> tw2113: There is a webkit audio api in the works, but it's nothing like the mozilla audio api found in firefox 4.
  104. # [02:38] <grantg> I personally think the webkit audio api sucks for outputting audio.
  105. # [02:38] <grantg> Since it's async.
  106. # [02:39] <grantg> b/c of event handlers being used as the method(s) to write out audio to the system.
  107. # [02:39] <grantg> FF lets you pass your audio array directly to an api function to output audio.
  108. # [02:40] <paul_irish> grantg: you should get on the audio xg and offer your feedback
  109. # [02:40] <grantg> webkit audio makes you have to have a whole audio chaining system going and have a stupid event handler to do something so simple.
  110. # [02:40] <grantg> paul_irish: yeah
  111. # [02:41] <grantg> pauk_irish: The data uri trick I did gave me nightmares, a better way is a must.
  112. # [02:41] <grantg> Though it works in all browsers except IE.
  113. # [02:41] * Quits: Killman (~Killman@unaffiliated/killman) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  114. # [02:41] <grantg> (doesn't work in IE9 as far as I know)
  115. # [02:42] <grantg> paul_irish: Does chrome have typed arrays JITTED yet?
  116. # [02:42] <grantg> Seems that chrome is way slower than firefox 4 on my emulators.
  117. # [02:43] <grantg> specifically Uint8Array and Float32Array
  118. # [02:44] <grantg> Uint8Array is used for the entire memory sub-system, except the CPU registers (A, B, C, D, E, F, H, L, PC, SP) because the CPU registers are explicitely targeted with handling funcs.
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  120. # [02:44] <grantg> Is there a js audio api channel here?
  121. # [02:44] <grantg> Or shalt I do a 90s styled email? :/
  122. # [02:45] <paul_irish> i'm not sure but yeah i saw some perf tests that indicated the typed arrays were kinda slow
  123. # [02:45] <paul_irish> email fo sho
  124. # [02:45] <grantg> paul_irish: typed arrays are 40% faster than normal arrays for me.
  125. # [02:45] <grantg> in FF4
  126. # [02:45] <grantg> slower in chrome only.
  127. # [02:45] <paul_irish> some of them are over in #audio on irc.mozilla.org
  128. # [02:45] <grantg> I was just there.
  129. # [02:45] <paul_irish> but an email to the xg would reach chris, which is who matters :)
  130. # [02:46] <paul_irish> ah
  131. # [02:46] <grantg> Chris doesn't hang out in #audio though. :/
  132. # [02:46] <paul_irish> yeah i figured
  133. # [02:46] * Joins: Killman (~Killman@186.3.10.4)
  134. # [02:46] <grantg> And I think he's the one doing webkit audio.
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  137. # [02:46] <paul_irish> yuppp
  138. # [02:46] <paul_irish> whats your last name btw?
  139. # [02:47] <grantg> People are hell bent on saying webkit api is superior to the moz api. :/
  140. # [02:47] <grantg> galitz
  141. # [02:47] <grantg> hence the g in my nick
  142. # [02:47] <grantg> and my URL
  143. # [02:47] <grantg> :P
  144. # [02:47] <paul_irish> got it :)
  145. # [02:47] <grantg> paul_irish: Debugging roms right now
  146. # [02:47] <tw2113> it makes so much sense now
  147. # [02:47] <grantg> debug hell now
  148. # [02:48] <tw2113> grantg i bet you can't tell what paul's last name is
  149. # [02:48] <grantg> lol
  150. # [02:48] <grantg> irishimo. :P
  151. # [02:48] <paul_irish> grantg: you've seen dynamicaudio.js right?
  152. # [02:48] <grantg> Yeah, but I'm a no plugin guy
  153. # [02:49] <grantg> I HATE flash.
  154. # [02:49] <paul_irish> hahah i can dig it :)
  155. # [02:49] <grantg> You should see what I did to get it working in browsers that DON'T support putImageData or canvas entirely.
  156. # [02:49] <tw2113> if i could, i'd make Lady Gaga play whenever paul entered the IRC room
  157. # [02:50] <grantg> http://www.grantgalitz.org/gameboy/js/other/BMPCanvas.js
  158. # [02:50] <grantg> Does kind of what I did for audio, but with creating raw BMP data instead
  159. # [02:50] <grantg> And I do tiling to not go over the IE8 32kb limit
  160. # [02:51] <grantg> slow as hell (0.5 fps) in IE8, but it works once you click through the bizillion slow script warnings.
  161. # [02:53] <grantg> paul_irish: TIL there's an HTML4.01 media player. :D
  162. # [02:54] <grantg> in js
  163. # [02:55] <grantg> Anyhow, I'm looking at doing a fallback as a java app.
  164. # [02:55] <paul_irish> intersting.
  165. # [02:55] <paul_irish> let me know when you do.
  166. # [02:56] <paul_irish> i'm big into fallbacks.
  167. # [02:56] <grantg> But the data uri trick will stay, unless the java fallback is specified in the settings.
  168. # [02:56] <grantg> paul irish: My current config - mozAudio => webkit audio => data uri
  169. # [02:57] <grantg> paul_irish: It's a shame typed arrays aren't jitted yet in webkit.
  170. # [02:57] <grantg> I wonder how fast it'd be in chrome if jitted.
  171. # [02:57] <paul_irish> http://code.google.com/p/v8/issues/entry file it!
  172. # [02:58] <paul_irish> and tell them your use case on why it matters
  173. # [02:58] <grantg> heh, I should also make my stuff benchmarks, since it's cpu emulation in js
  174. # [02:59] <grantg> Order of perf as I see it: Firefox 4, Chrome, Opera, IE9, Safari 5
  175. # [03:00] <grantg> Though IE9 fails on a core statement in the interpreter loop.
  176. # [03:00] <grantg> Since IE9 I guess does some sort of dead code removal on a rarely used, but important, if statement for the program counter bug unique to classic gameboys.
  177. # [03:01] * grantg is disappoint, IE9
  178. # [03:01] <grantg> Also WTF IE9 with no WAVE PCM support? I mean it's Microsoft's codec!
  179. # [03:01] <paul_irish> that's pretty weak
  180. # [03:03] <grantg> As far as I can tell, it fails when determining whether wave pcm can play by the mime type by the canPlayType method.
  181. # [03:04] <grantg> I tried using bgsound, but that just crashed IE9 preview 7.
  182. # [03:05] <grantg> Also a stretched canvas is slow to blit to on anything other than FF4.
  183. # [03:05] <grantg> Even IE9 is slow as shit when trying to render via putImageData
  184. # [03:06] <grantg> U_U
  185. # [03:06] <grantg> <endRant>
  186. # [03:06] <grantg> </endRant>
  187. # [03:07] <grantg> hmm, I need to remove the note that I'm using some code from jsGB
  188. # [03:07] <grantg> I rewrote the little bit I took from it.
  189. # [03:08] <grantg> Ever since I rewrote the entire CPU emulation.
  190. # [03:08] * Joins: svenlito_ (~svenlito@p5496BF09.dip.t-dialin.net)
  191. # [03:08] * grantg gives opcode LD SP, n the evil look.
  192. # [03:09] <grantg> paul_irish: Wait til GBA is out.
  193. # [03:09] <grantg> ARM7TDMI CPU emulation FTW.
  194. # [03:09] <paul_irish> hotttt
  195. # [03:09] <grantg> in js, no plugins
  196. # [03:09] <grantg> Still tooling the opcodes.
  197. # [03:09] <grantg> I hatz teh conditional breaks.
  198. # [03:10] <grantg> paul
  199. # [03:10] <grantg> I might do a NES emu in js as well
  200. # [03:10] <grantg> Since JSNES is way too slow
  201. # [03:10] * Quits: svenlito (~svenlito@p5496BE42.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  202. # [03:11] <grantg> I mean my GBC emu is faster than it (fullspeed on my mac) and does more MIPs than a NES
  203. # [03:11] <paul_irish> innnnteresting
  204. # [03:11] <paul_irish> get ben firsch in a perf war :)
  205. # [03:11] <paul_irish> well holler when it is.. i'd love to do a spotlight on html5rocks on it.
  206. # [03:11] <paul_irish> and connect you to the jsconf, txjs folks.
  207. # [03:12] <grantg> Probably b/c ben muddied up the memory.
  208. # [03:12] <grantg> paul_irish: My trick was assigning the memory handling functions to an array, and depending on what address is being read, a specific handling func is called
  209. # [03:13] <grantg> Instead of an ugly switch case doing a lookup every read and write
  210. # [03:13] <grantg> that goes 5 levels deep
  211. # [03:13] <grantg> :/
  212. # [03:13] <grantg> paul_irish: TIL there is the whole source code in one file: http://www.grantgalitz.org/gameboy/js/GameBoyCore.js
  213. # [03:15] <grantg> paul_irish: Anyone can do what ever with it, showcase it, mod it themselves, etc.
  214. # [03:15] <paul_irish> intense.
  215. # [03:15] <grantg> It's open source and free to look at. :D
  216. # [03:16] <grantg> fav part is the GBC boot ROM in one js array.
  217. # [03:16] <grantg> :D
  218. # [03:16] <grantg> VBA doesn't even have that
  219. # [03:16] <grantg> (VisualBoyAdvance)
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  221. # [03:17] <grantg> paul_irish: If you're wondering how files can be loaded in, it supports the File API
  222. # [03:18] <grantg> So you can load ROMs into it directly from your comp
  223. # [03:18] <grantg> Though you first need to get the roms from a site like http://www.doperoms.com/roms/Gameboy_And_Gbc/.html
  224. # [03:18] * Quits: krunkosaurus (~krunkosau@173-13-142-170-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: krunkosaurus)
  225. # [03:18] <grantg> Well, legally, you need to dump the roms from games you own yourself. :/
  226. # [03:19] <grantg> heh, the boot rom wasn't easy to get (thank costis at gbdev).
  227. # [03:20] * Quits: MattDiPasquale (~MattDiPas@rrcs-184-74-229-10.nyc.biz.rr.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  228. # [03:20] <grantg> Shit like that is hidden from normal cpu reads, and requires serious hackery to get (playing doctor on your GB's motherboard).
  229. # [03:20] <paul_irish> i was hoping for drag n drop file reader action :)
  230. # [03:21] <grantg> eh
  231. # [03:21] <grantg> click, file, go to open as, then click local file
  232. # [03:21] <paul_irish> drag n drop!
  233. # [03:21] <paul_irish> do it do it
  234. # [03:21] <grantg> What if someone accidentally dropped an image or something?
  235. # [03:21] <paul_irish> you could even make it look like the top of the gameboy as you drag in
  236. # [03:21] <grantg> :P
  237. # [03:22] <grantg> paul_irish: It runs on mobile safari, forgot to mention that. :P
  238. # [03:22] <grantg> like 5 fps on an iphone 4
  239. # [03:22] <paul_irish> nice
  240. # [03:23] <grantg> Though you need to load in roms on mobile safari through the url address method (ajax'd in through a proxy script).
  241. # [03:23] <grantg> paul_irish: I'm porting it to java and c++
  242. # [03:23] <grantg> So it can run as an applet as well, and as an iphone and android app
  243. # [03:24] <grantg> Since the current iOS GBC emus suck big time.
  244. # [03:24] <grantg> One currently for the iphone even crashes on a test rom. LOL
  245. # [03:24] <grantg> Apparently gameboy4iphone hangs on a HALT opcode test.
  246. # [03:25] <grantg> and locks up the iphone.
  247. # [03:25] <grantg> and the G.B.C. A.D. one just plainly sucks at accuracy.
  248. # [03:26] <paul_irish> shitty
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  251. # [03:29] <grantg> Though thankfuly other people are picking up fixing old emulators and/or writing new ones as well.
  252. # [03:29] <grantg> *thankfully
  253. # [03:29] <grantg> BGB is gonna get an update.
  254. # [03:29] <grantg> after half a decade. <_<
  255. # [03:29] <grantg> So windows users won't be left out in the cold.
  256. # [03:30] <grantg> paul_irish: I had base code for an n64 emu, probably gonna redo it.
  257. # [03:31] <paul_irish> hahah
  258. # [03:31] <paul_irish> that's a hell of a todo list.
  259. # [03:31] <grantg> I need to get dynarec code going for the MIPS r4300i.
  260. # [03:31] <grantg> and webgl working right.
  261. # [03:31] <grantg> paul_irish: Another todo - SNES
  262. # [03:31] <grantg> xD
  263. # [03:31] <paul_irish> but of course.
  264. # [03:32] <grantg> DS is possible
  265. # [03:32] <grantg> TIL there is a Nintendo DS being run in javascript + html5.
  266. # [03:32] <grantg> ;)
  267. # [03:34] <grantg> If anyone is wondering, all the GB/GBC pokemon roms run in the js GBC emulator.
  268. # [03:34] <grantg> heheh
  269. # [03:35] <grantg> paul_irish: There's a js project that already exists that I think does MIPS
  270. # [03:35] <grantg> jsMIPS or such
  271. # [03:35] <paul_irish> ?g jsmips
  272. # [03:35] <bot-t> paul_irish, JSMIPS - http://codu.org/projects/jsmips/
  273. # [03:35] <grantg> I need to see how close it is to what I'm doing
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  275. # [03:36] <grantg> RCP is a bitch though with N64 emulation.
  276. # [03:36] <grantg> Might just stick with HLE like any other N64 emu.
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  279. # [03:38] <grantg> paul_irish: I find it funny I just did the first GameBoy Color emulator in js and I'm already moving on the js GBA and other platforms.
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  281. # [03:39] <grantg> There are shitty GB (non-color) emus that hardly work in js, but nothing even this close or with sound.
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  283. # [03:39] <grantg> Not a demo. :)
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  286. # [03:40] <grantg> full thing. :D
  287. # [03:40] <paul_irish> boom boom
  288. # [03:40] <grantg> ?
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  292. # [03:45] * grantg is redlining at 85% CPU usage
  293. # [03:45] <grantg> Still full speed. :/
  294. # [03:46] <grantg> paul_irish: Also, it's an offline webpage. :)
  295. # [03:47] <grantg> I maketh HTML5 and JS bleed.
  296. # [03:47] <grantg> with localStorage usage
  297. # [03:48] <paul_irish> thats hot
  298. # [03:48] <grantg> It falls under many html5 new tech groups. :P
  299. # [03:50] <grantg> offline + file access + multimedia + performance + storage + graphics + presentation
  300. # [03:50] <grantg> :/
  301. # [03:52] <grantg> One thing that needs to be added to js: Better bitwise
  302. # [03:52] <grantg> You can't type single vars, only give it a value
  303. # [03:52] <grantg> I'd like a ubyte
  304. # [03:52] <grantg> or a u_int_16
  305. # [03:52] <grantg> :P
  306. # [03:53] <grantg> I use typed arrays on the arrays though of course
  307. # [03:54] <grantg> paul_irish: Drag n drop, eh?
  308. # [03:54] <grantg> Can do I guess
  309. # [03:56] <grantg> Anyhow, any word on what I asked when I came in here?
  310. # [03:56] <grantg> a palette system for canvas 2d?
  311. # [03:56] <grantg> As an extension to the api.
  312. # [03:57] <grantg> So things like green screening or color manipulation to multiple pixels at once becomes even easier.
  313. # [03:59] <grantg> like have an event handler that is given the CanvasPixelArray and an array filled with info on the pixels that were found to be a match
  314. # [03:59] <grantg> And the event handler can do the processing
  315. # [04:00] <grantg> but the palette is a matching for the values in the range
  316. # [04:00] <grantg> to target specific pixels
  317. # [04:00] <grantg> Or a direct color conversion could be passed to the api, to skip the event handler entirely.
  318. # [04:01] <grantg> So things like recoloring a bg tile can be done for all the target pixels at once.
  319. # [04:01] <grantg> without having to have a js script sniff out the target pixels manually.
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  321. # [04:04] <grantg> My next question is to provide helper api to webgl for the matrix math.
  322. # [04:04] <grantg> Important enough to add to webgl?
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  325. # [04:12] <grantg> heh, google chrome crashed on the html5rocks cube demo @ http://studio.html5rocks.com/#Cube
  326. # [04:12] <grantg> Turning it too much blew it up. :/
  327. # [04:13] <grantg> paul_irish: Does the chrome store really have flash apps?
  328. # [04:14] <paul_irish> i dont think this helps but check out http://peternitsch.net/bitmapdata.js/
  329. # [04:14] <paul_irish> yup it does
  330. # [04:14] <grantg> ewwww
  331. # [04:14] <grantg> I would have said, if you want to be accepted here, translate your flash crap to js
  332. # [04:14] <grantg> since there's webgl now
  333. # [04:15] <paul_irish> grantg: yeah i think a lot of matrix shit should be added to the Math object
  334. # [04:15] <grantg> yeah
  335. # [04:15] <paul_irish> so everyone isnt including sylvester in their shit
  336. # [04:15] <grantg> so true
  337. # [04:15] <grantg> + it could accelerate the ops
  338. # [04:15] <grantg> gtg
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  343. # [04:39] <bckenny> ha
  344. # [04:39] <bckenny> no more on Math!
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  414. # [12:47] <bx2> hi all - is there any way to detect if user is using ie. Opera browser ? (besides JS of course)
  415. # [12:48] <jetienne> bx2: ie got funky "if"
  416. # [12:48] <jetienne> http://www.javascriptkit.com/howto/cc2.shtml <- this is what i was talking about
  417. # [12:49] <bx2> ok I know about IE
  418. # [12:49] <bx2> but what without Opera
  419. # [12:49] <bx2> *about
  420. # [12:50] <jetienne> bx2: dunno any, but im not authority
  421. # [12:50] <jetienne> bx2: #opera may know
  422. # [12:50] <bx2> :) I know about JS way, but was wondering if there is any native html feature for that - I doubt that thou, but it will do no harm to ask :)
  423. # [12:52] <Ms2ger> No
  424. # [12:52] <Ms2ger> And you probably don't need it either
  425. # [12:52] <jetienne> bx2: from a standard pov, the feature detection is better than the browser detection.
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  427. # [13:05] <sean`> sup JKarsrud
  428. # [13:06] <JKarsrud> nothing much, sean`
  429. # [13:06] <JKarsrud> just updating my CV before next week
  430. # [13:07] <JKarsrud> sup with you?
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  432. # [13:15] <sean`> why the update
  433. # [13:16] <sean`> not much, just chillin @ facebook
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  444. # [14:47] <JKarsrud> sean`: Doing some consulting work for work, and they needed an updated CV. Just had to deliver some transfer papers for a car I sold, so I was afk :)
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  468. # [16:43] <tw2113> any of you know if html5 stuff works even without the doctype?
  469. # [16:43] <nimbupani> of course they do!
  470. # [16:43] <tw2113> just double checking
  471. # [16:44] <tw2113> i have a form to make today
  472. # [16:44] <nimbupani> but their working is suspect in browsers that go into quirks mode without any doctype
  473. # [16:45] <tw2113> only when lacking a doctype? or even with the old ones?
  474. # [16:45] <nimbupani> well when using old ones you should make sure you are using one that triggers standards mode
  475. # [16:45] <nimbupani> coz quirks mode introduces its own set of problems as that mode was designed to render webpages like it was 1996.
  476. # [16:46] <tw2113> wouldn't they just default to text in those cases?
  477. # [16:46] <nimbupani> ?g truth about doctypes
  478. # [16:46] <bot-t> nimbupani, The Truth about Doctypes | Nimbupani Designs - http://nimbupani.com/the-truth-about-doctypes.html
  479. # [16:48] <tw2113> looks like the site it'd be for is xhtml transitional
  480. # [16:48] <Evet> could you recommend a framework to emulate cli?
  481. # [16:49] <tw2113> hmmm, i may just suck it up and use all text fields :(
  482. # [16:49] <nimbupani> no why?
  483. # [16:50] <nimbupani> all you have is an extra attribute.
  484. # [16:50] <tw2113> hmmm
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  508. # [18:34] <dilvie> Does boilerplate reset the new HTML5 pseudo-classes for form validation? :valid, :invalid, :optional, :required, etc...?
  509. # [18:34] <nimbupani> it doesnt "reset"
  510. # [18:35] <nimbupani> just provides basic default styles for input and textarea
  511. # [18:35] <nimbupani> for :invalid.
  512. # [18:35] <dilvie> ok.
  513. # [18:36] <dilvie> Thanks for the tip. =) We need a full reset because we don't want the default browser styling messing with our visual presentation.
  514. # [18:37] <nimbupani> whats a "full reset"?
  515. # [18:38] <dilvie> some browsers do css shadows, others red border color, others add little icons...
  516. # [18:39] <dilvie> I mean full reset of all that garbage.
  517. # [18:39] <dilvie> I don't want the default browser behaviors.
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  519. # [18:40] <tw2113> you want to remove the accessability features?
  520. # [18:40] * cardona507 is now known as cgcardona
  521. # [18:40] <tw2113> me liked cgcardona when he was still cardona507
  522. # [18:40] <tw2113> *whistles* oh hey
  523. # [18:40] <cgcardona> I'm all grown up now
  524. # [18:40] <tw2113> 12?
  525. # [18:40] <dilvie> tw2113: I want to remove the default browser styling of the new form pseudo selectors. We have our own styles that clash with the browser defaults. =)
  526. # [18:40] <cgcardona> when I became a man I put away childish things ;)
  527. # [18:40] <cgcardona> heh
  528. # [18:42] <cgcardona> the internet connection at my house is soooo slow it's seriously an issue
  529. # [18:42] <nimbupani> its an interesting question dilvie
  530. # [18:42] <cgcardona> the weird thing is some days its great and some days it's really slow
  531. # [18:42] <cgcardona> i don't know whats up
  532. # [18:42] <nimbupani> i wonder if we can provide a full-fledged reset.
  533. # [18:42] <dilvie> that would be nice.
  534. # [18:43] <dilvie> We're already using boilerplate. =)
  535. # [18:43] <dilvie> This is for production use at Zumba.com. Millions of people looking at our shiny new HTML5 forms.
  536. # [18:44] <cgcardona> cool
  537. # [18:44] <cgcardona> or is that the wrong word again :-/
  538. # [18:44] <tw2113> wow, according to this article, IE has more uses than downloading chrome/firefox/opera
  539. # [18:44] <tw2113> http://www.theonion.com/articles/internet-explorer-makes-desperate-overture-to-beco,6338/
  540. # [18:46] <dilvie> cgcardona: I hope cool is the right word this time. ;)
  541. # [18:47] <tw2113> i like that the fields default to text when there's no browser support for it
  542. # [18:47] <nimbupani> the only invalid default UI i have seen is the use of box-shadow
  543. # [18:48] <nimbupani> and boilerplate resets that.
  544. # [18:48] <dilvie> yay!
  545. # [18:48] <dilvie> did you check Opera?
  546. # [18:48] <dilvie> last time I looked it was adding stupid icons.
  547. # [18:48] <dilvie> Maybe they took that out.
  548. # [18:48] <nimbupani> yes they have a new UI now
  549. # [18:49] <dilvie> Also, ff 4 beta was doing red borders.
  550. # [18:50] <dilvie> I'll upgrade my Opera. =)
  551. # [18:51] <dilvie> Opera 11: check.
  552. # [18:52] <dilvie> Yay! Stupid icons are gone in Opera.
  553. # [18:52] <dilvie> phwew.
  554. # [18:59] <tw2113> now to just make everyone upgrade to the latest :P
  555. # [19:02] <dilvie> Seriously.
  556. # [19:02] <dilvie> Actually, I think Opera has auto-updates.
  557. # [19:02] <nimbupani> no it doesnt :(
  558. # [19:03] <nimbupani> but you can set it i think
  559. # [19:03] <dilvie> oh crap.
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  561. # [19:07] <dilvie> nimbupani: Thanks for investigating. =)
  562. # [19:07] <nimbupani> no worries dilvie!
  563. # [19:09] <dilvie> I'm trying to get the company to invest in a cross-browser emulation server so our design guys can see how this stuff renders on all our target browsers at once.
  564. # [19:09] <dilvie> That will be nice. =)
  565. # [19:10] * tw2113 throws up the mandatory "sites don't need to look the same in every browser" arguement
  566. # [19:10] * cgcardona agrees
  567. # [19:10] <dilvie> tw2113: Agreed, but they do need to look GOOD in all our target browsers.
  568. # [19:11] * tw2113 also notes that IE6 is no longer a browser, just a monstrosity
  569. # [19:11] <dilvie> LOL
  570. # [19:11] <dilvie> yeah.
  571. # [19:11] <dilvie> No argument there.
  572. # [19:12] <cgcardona> +1234
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  574. # [19:12] <tw2113> ironically..i'm attempting to install Windows 2000 just for a native version of IE6 for testing some stuff
  575. # [19:13] <dilvie> sadly, there are 15-20 times as many visitors using IE6 as Opera for us.
  576. # [19:13] <cgcardona> sad indeed
  577. # [19:13] <dilvie> stupid users.
  578. # [19:13] <tw2113> just a VM
  579. # [19:14] <dilvie> I'm planning to set up a VM server running a bunch of virtualized browser environments -- planning to install IE6 native. Any tips from other people who have done the same?
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  586. # [19:29] <tw2113> i wonder how well Win2k will handle wireless
  587. # [19:32] <cgcardona> good question
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  590. # [19:42] <tw2113> hahahaaha, cgcardona i got the install up and running, it's giving me IE5 :D
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  592. # [19:43] <cgcardona> epic!
  593. # [19:43] <cgcardona> screenshots! I demand screenshot!
  594. # [19:44] <tw2113> no internet with it, probably due to major wireless lack
  595. # [19:44] <tw2113> i'll have to play around a bit more with it at home later when i can get a wired into it
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  598. # [19:55] <cgcardona> the web must have been a sad place before firebug and the dev tools that have followed
  599. # [19:55] <cgcardona> i can't seem to find the link but I read that firebug is about to change
  600. # [19:56] <cgcardona> they are going to create a new model for debugging js instead of stepping through line by line
  601. # [19:57] <cgcardona> fire bug did so much to change the world I am stoked to see what they come up with
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  630. # [21:07] <tw2113> hee, tomorrow should be interesting
  631. # [21:07] <tw2113> i was told to work from home due to bad weather coming in
  632. # [21:08] <prgmrBill> I've done that all week
  633. # [21:08] <prgmrBill> today is the first day I came in
  634. # [21:09] <tw2113> hey! Chance of Snow: 90%
  635. # [21:10] <cgcardona> really?!
  636. # [21:10] <cgcardona> i guess I forgot it was winter :p
  637. # [21:11] <tw2113> you have to go outside to remember that, cgcardona
  638. # [21:11] <cgcardona> :p
  639. # [21:12] <cgcardona> oh I go outside - picture me swimmin here http://goo.gl/PUhpe
  640. # [21:12] <cgcardona> boom
  641. # [21:12] <tw2113> where do you live again?
  642. # [21:12] <cgcardona> kauai
  643. # [21:12] <cgcardona> the northernmost hawaiian island
  644. # [21:13] <tw2113> ah
  645. # [21:13] <tw2113> yeah, that explains your constant warm weather
  646. # [21:13] <cgcardona> the garden island :D
  647. # [21:14] <cgcardona> the weather on the radio is like a joke here - every day it says "mid 80's partly cloudy partly sunny 50% chance of rain" :-/
  648. # [21:14] <tw2113> i'm sure you get tired of that
  649. # [21:14] <cgcardona> yeah it's rough sometimes
  650. # [21:14] <cgcardona> that's why i retreat into this dark cave and stare at this monitor
  651. # [21:14] <cgcardona> it makes me feel safe
  652. # [21:14] <tw2113> tomorrow's high? 11F
  653. # [21:14] <cgcardona> ouch
  654. # [21:15] <tw2113> i've been in much worse
  655. # [21:15] <tw2113> upwards of -40F with windchill before
  656. # [21:15] <cgcardona> dang
  657. # [21:15] <tw2113> you'd be an instant ice cicle
  658. # [21:16] <tw2113> 34F right now, and yet i'm still eating ice cream
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  661. # [21:17] <cgcardona> haha
  662. # [21:17] <cgcardona> nice
  663. # [21:22] <tw2113> sadly, i don't think a table is the most semantic way to lay out some form elements for searching an event calendar
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  666. # [21:36] * tw2113 points at cgcardona and says "just dance"
  667. # [21:36] <tw2113> yah i'm a bit weird
  668. # [21:37] * cgcardona does the electric slide
  669. # [21:37] <cgcardona> oh yeah
  670. # [21:37] <cgcardona> boogie woogie woogie
  671. # [21:37] <tw2113> why do i think it'd be funny to see paul irish dance
  672. # [21:37] <tw2113> plus where is he? he's awol
  673. # [21:37] <cgcardona> "It's electric!"
  674. # [21:37] <cgcardona> he got pulled into tron during the 3d viewing at google is my suspicion
  675. # [21:38] <tw2113> he's becoming part of modernizr
  676. # [21:38] <cgcardona> suspicion
  677. # [21:38] <cgcardona> what a funny word
  678. # [21:39] <cgcardona> it doesn't seem spelled right if you read it over and over
  679. # [21:39] <cgcardona> heh
  680. # [21:39] <tw2113> suspicion
  681. # [21:39] <tw2113> maybe
  682. # [21:39] <tw2113> google says we're right
  683. # [21:39] <tw2113> and we trust the google to not be evil
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  685. # [21:40] <cgcardona> or suspicous
  686. # [21:40] <cgcardona> so we're good
  687. # [21:41] <tw2113> granted my dad and brother think google is failing at not being evil
  688. # [21:45] <cgcardona> i don't think your dad and brother are alone
  689. # [21:45] <tw2113> probably not
  690. # [21:45] <tw2113> i made attempts to clean up my yahoo mail ID
  691. # [21:46] <tw2113> part of me just wanting to go against the grain with gmail and all, but still use my gmail accounts too
  692. # [21:46] <tw2113> the other part is legacy with yahoo
  693. # [21:46] <cgcardona> gmail is the best around
  694. # [21:46] <cgcardona> and fwiw i will forever love what wave could have been
  695. # [21:46] <tw2113> didn't apache pick that up
  696. # [21:47] <cgcardona> they did
  697. # [21:47] <tw2113> makes you wonder what they may do with it
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  716. # [22:26] <cgcardona> as long as it's open source it's fair game for anyone to use which is cool
  717. # [22:32] <dilvie> Why do tutti connections drop all the time?
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  731. # Session Close: Fri Dec 31 00:00:00 2010

The end :)