/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-01-21 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Jan 21 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:19] <paul_irish> Thasmo: one probably doesnt want to include it in bottom.
# [00:20] <Thasmo> paul_irish, I guess it would break the html5shiv?
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# [00:20] <paul_irish> Thasmo: how are you using modernizr
# [00:21] <Thasmo> in the head ofc
# [00:21] <paul_irish> great! case closed.
# [00:21] <Thasmo> it's just I got 2 scripts now. one in the head - rest on the botton. thought there's a way to get it all to bottom.
# [00:21] <Thasmo> lol paul xD
# [00:22] <paul_irish> you can put modernizr at the bottom if 1) you dont use html5 semantic elements section/nav/header/blah and 2) you dont use the .no-feature css classes it gives you
# [00:23] <Thasmo> paul_irish, alright. But including at at the bottom and running it on page load doesnt work either?
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# [00:24] <digitalfiz> mainly the reason for the head requirement is thats where it tricks IE into displaying the html5 symantics properly
# [00:25] <paul_irish> Thasmo: as long as you dont need those two other things you can load it whenever you want to
# [00:25] <paul_irish> it's uncommon people just need the Modernizr.feature results
# [00:26] <Thasmo> paul_irish, k. Ofc I need them. :>
# [00:26] <paul_irish> no.. that thats the ONLY part of modernizr you use
# [00:26] <paul_irish> so thats why we dont really document reasons why you could lazyload it or whatever
# [00:26] <paul_irish> most people use the .no-boxshadow or whatever classes.. and the html5shiv aspect
# [00:27] <paul_irish> if you dont.. you're fine
# [00:27] <Thasmo> but couldnt the css classes still be applied when lazy loading it at the bottom?
# [00:27] <paul_irish> it could but you'd get a flash of unstyled content assuming your styles are based off that
# [00:28] <Thasmo> Ah k , got it.
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# [00:49] <Neiluj> does somebody have some time to loose on reducing a bug on chrome ? :-)
# [00:49] <Neiluj> <video> related
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# [01:23] <Neiluj> paul_irish: the autoplay "false positive" bug with chrome was only with injected video (audio seems to have the same), and I'm hesitating to put this on the undetectables page, what do you think ?
# [01:23] <cheilmann> seeinghttp://html5shirt.com/ I could not resist http://html5pants.com/
# [01:24] <dgathright> lol
# [01:25] <dgathright> cheilmann: Good RWW article. Forwarding that to every recruiter I know. :)
# [01:25] <Thasmo> Can someone figure out why there are this huge gaps between the resources beeing fetched in the net panel of firebug? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64204/waterfall.png
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# [01:27] <cheilmann> dgathright: thanks - I thought this thing would start a comment race but it seems to be too ling
# [01:27] <Neiluj> cheilmann: you should have put the logo on the <center> :D
# [01:27] <cheilmann> long
# [01:28] <Neiluj> like an arrow indicating the killer feature
# [01:28] <cheilmann> Neiluj: cafepress doesn't allow that
# [01:28] <Neiluj> too sad :)
# [01:28] <dgathright> Then it would just appear to be HTML1
# [01:28] <Neiluj> :D
# [01:29] <Neiluj> are they shipping in france ?
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# [01:33] <cheilmann> i think so
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# [01:34] <tw2113> evening all
# [01:35] <Neiluj> hi tw2113
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# [01:37] <cheilmann> The problem with working for a company that does everything openly on the web is that you never stop working as you don't need to sign in to anything
# [01:38] <tw2113> your brain never shuts down does it?
# [01:38] <cheilmann> ipad view source bookmarklet http://www.ravelrumba.com/blog/ipad-view-source-bookmarklet/
# [01:38] <antonkovalyov> what company does everything open on the web?
# [01:38] <tw2113> i almost touched an ipad once :D
# [01:38] <dgathright> cheilmann: No VPNs or anything? Can totally see that then. I'm sure I'd work (email, etc..) much more in my free time if I didn't have to make that conscious effort to long into the network.
# [01:39] <tw2113> mozilla, i imagine is which chris is talking about
# [01:39] <cheilmann> dgathright: yes, nothing of that sort in mozilla
# [01:39] <dgathright> Whoa, that's crazy talk
# [01:39] <cheilmann> some IRC channels that need passwords and the mail system is zimbra
# [01:39] <cheilmann> :)
# [01:39] <cheilmann> which was very ironic for me
# [01:39] <dgathright> lol
# [01:40] <dgathright> Was just thinking about Zimbra yesterday. Has VMWare done much with it?
# [01:40] <dgathright> Kinda forgot about them
# [01:40] <dgathright> Expected/Hoped for much more.
# [01:41] <tw2113> hmmm, good question..what are the visitor and facilities access policies at mozilla?
# [01:41] <tw2113> is it card access?
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# [01:42] <cheilmann> yeah
# [01:42] <cheilmann> the main entrance hall is open to anyone
# [01:42] <cheilmann> you need to badge into the meeting rooms and the main office
# [01:42] <cheilmann> there is no reception - it is a big dinosaur with a phone next to it
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# [01:43] <cheilmann> http://www.flickr.com/photos/codepo8/4522736273/
# [01:43] <antonkovalyov> haha
# [01:43] <antonkovalyov> cheilmann, are you still accross the street from google?
# [01:43] <tw2113> cool, some access :D
# [01:44] * tw2113 was a front desk security bitch for 17 months
# [01:44] <tw2113> brb
# [01:44] <cheilmann> no, mozilla is at the end of castro
# [01:44] <cheilmann> in mountain view
# [01:45] <cheilmann> across the street is a mortuary
# [01:45] <dgathright> You mean AOL, right?
# [01:45] <dgathright> (zing)
# [01:45] <cheilmann> with the ghostbusters car: http://www.flickr.com/photos/codepo8/5278261863/
# [01:46] <cheilmann> you mean the company that might buy Yahoo?
# [01:46] <cheilmann> :)
# [01:46] <dgathright> oh snap!
# [01:46] <dgathright> Yeah, if AOL can raise 20x it's own value, then yes, they may buy Yahoo.
# [01:47] <digitalfiz> pocket change
# [01:47] <antonkovalyov> cheilmann, do you have chrome fans at mozilla? :)
# [01:47] <cheilmann> yeah, we all have our faves
# [01:48] <antonkovalyov> sounds like a nice company
# [01:48] <franksalim__> i'm about 500 yards away on castro street. i should send a smoke signal
# [01:48] <cheilmann> It is a sign of a good company if you are allowed to have your own tastes
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# [01:48] <cheilmann> I mean I was at Yahoo for 4.5 years and all my emails are gmail
# [01:49] <cheilmann> The biggest change was to start working from home
# [01:49] <cheilmann> no more office to go to
# [01:49] <cheilmann> means you force yourself to read your good morning emails in a cafe so you can be bothered to put on proper clothes
# [01:49] <cheilmann> :)
# [01:50] <cheilmann> I've just been to a presentation of Bruce Lawson on HTML5
# [01:50] <dgathright> You mean HTML, right?
# [01:50] <cheilmann> a very good audience question was "how could I detect server side that the browser supports HTML5 features"
# [01:50] <cheilmann> which is impossible to answer
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# [01:52] <dgathright> How could you? Easy, user agent. How could you reliably? Yeah, impossible.
# [01:52] <franksalim__> or just impractical. serve up test content first
# [01:53] <dgathright> Or use a variety of checks on capabilities in JC on first page-load, store in cookie via JS, then read cookie server-side on the subsequent HTTP requests.
# [01:53] <dgathright> JC=JS
# [01:59] <paul_irish> http://code.google.com/p/gwtmodernizr/
# [01:59] <paul_irish> https://github.com/jamesgpearce/modernizr-server etc etc
# [02:00] <paul_irish> mod-server uses a double load technique (i think) which is kinda ugly.. like flushes the <head>.. the js runs.. and then it reloads the page
# [02:01] <paul_irish> ah here's the tweet. http://twitter.com/Modernizr/status/5453938144837632
# [02:01] <socialhapy> http://bit.ly/dIEVbp @Modernizr: Server-side Modernizr modules available now. Ruby: http://goo.gl/ibDzE , Python: http://goo.gl/HzwTu , PHP: http://goo.gl/RSB3T
# [02:03] <paul_irish> ^ cc dgathright cheilmann
# [02:03] <dgathright> Ah, neat, looks like it uses the cookie method. Makes sense.
# [02:04] <paul_irish> Neiluj: report it to crbug.com!
# [02:04] <cheilmann> very cool
# [02:04] <cheilmann> that's what I said, too
# [02:04] <cheilmann> test stuff, set cookie
# [02:05] <cheilmann> to which the answer was - what if the client has no JS
# [02:05] <cheilmann> this was from a guy from the W3C mobile consortium
# [02:05] <cheilmann> which makes sense
# [02:05] <Neiluj> paul_irish: actually, I made another test and wasn't able to reproduce, damn it
# [02:06] <paul_irish> if he has no js? the page is gonna be very boring to moderately boring, depending on how good of a PE job you did.
# [02:06] <Neiluj> knowing what browser supports on the server side sounds like something is going wrong to me
# [02:07] <dgathright> No JS? Could detect some things like <video> by initially embedding them, and looking for the return HTTP request for the video file. But that sounds like a pain in the ass, and only works on things that fire HTTP.
# [02:07] <tw2113> there's an idea...great accessibility...use JS to spit out your css
# [02:07] <cheilmann> well a use case I can think of is having a server side script only returning the right video instead of listing all
# [02:07] <tw2113> if no js, they get the bare site
# [02:08] <Neiluj> I'm coding both on server and client sides and I saw to many people who wants to do "everything" on only one, mostly server, and it stinks really hard
# [02:08] <cheilmann> tw2113: that is the perfect world, yes. But then you look at HTML5 demos and they have a lot of HTML elements that don't do anything without JS
# [02:08] <tw2113> i know :(
# [02:08] <Neiluj> I can't figure out one case where it could be "really" useful...
# [02:08] <cheilmann> Neiluj: it is a paranoid approach I guess, people are still afraid of the unknown client
# [02:08] <Neiluj> cheilmann: totally
# [02:09] <cheilmann> then of course there is also the job of monitoring
# [02:09] <cheilmann> and statistics
# [02:09] * tw2113 is going to ditch his rss reader at work soon
# [02:10] <Neiluj> I did like this before and I knew I was doing it all wrong, you can even ignore it
# [02:10] <dgathright> But on the other-hand, things like <canvas> are worthless with no JS. So, yeah, that would be my solution for no JS, use a hidden <video> to ping a URL which just sets a cookie.
# [02:10] <Neiluj> can't*
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# [02:12] <paul_irish> tw2113: modernizr gives you .no-js and .js hooks for styling based on js-ness
# [02:12] <cheilmann> Well diveintoHTML5 says Scripting is here to stay and I do agree with the statement. It is a bit moot to say HTML5 is HTML as most of the spec is about APIs
# [02:13] <cheilmann> paul_irish: yes, I would love to see statistics though of how many people really use this the way it was intended
# [02:13] <paul_irish> guys ive thought long and hard about what exactly the definition of HTML5 is
# [02:13] <cheilmann> offering the option doesn't make people understand the consequences
# [02:13] <paul_irish> and i finally know.
# [02:13] <paul_irish> HTML5 IS ♥
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# [02:14] <cheilmann> A good example is HTML5 audio/video players who don't add a control attribute that only gets removed when JS is supported.
# [02:14] <paul_irish> cheilmann: yeah def. gotta evangelize the best practice at the same time. just sayin there is a handy API just waiting for you
# [02:14] <cheilmann> So in a capable browser with JS off (on a mobile device for example) the video is not working
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# [02:15] <paul_irish> i wonder in what mobile browsers can you actually turn off javascript.
# [02:15] <cheilmann> I've been advocating the class="js" on the html/body for years
# [02:15] <cheilmann> such a clever way to allow CSS designers to have two states
# [02:15] <ben_c> Blackberry's love turning JS off
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# [02:15] <paul_irish> personally i prefer styling my .no-js state explicitly
# [02:15] <ben_c> I think pre BB 6 JS was off by default
# [02:15] <paul_irish> but i dont care much
# [02:16] <paul_irish> ben_c: ah
# [02:16] <digitalfiz> i say we boycott blackberry then
# [02:16] <boaz_> shepazu: !
# [02:16] <cheilmann> but when you look at what people do you will see just 12 jQuery plugins and 3 YUI widgets in use on the same page :)
# [02:16] <ben_c> I'm in the anti BB camp
# [02:16] <shepazu> boaz_: !!!!!!
# [02:16] <cheilmann> shepazu: lovely to see you here!
# [02:16] <tw2113> i vote boycotting IE6 by this point
# [02:16] <boaz_> shit, am i really _'d?
# [02:16] <paul_irish> how embarassing.
# [02:16] * cheilmann tugs shepazu's sideburns
# [02:16] <dgathright> cheilmann: You say that like there's something wrong with that practice. :p
# [02:16] <shepazu> none of your sass, cheilmann
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# [02:17] <cheilmann> SASS? Nah
# [02:17] <boaz> that's better
# [02:17] <chriseppstein> stop making my irc beep
# [02:17] <chriseppstein> :P
# [02:17] <boaz> SASS? naw, i'd prefer @mixins thanks
# [02:17] <Neiluj> I FOUND IT !!!!!
# [02:18] <cheilmann> Good
# [02:19] <shepazu> it's over there! omg, it's moving! kill it!!!
# [02:19] <Neiluj> :D
# [02:20] <digitalfiz> hey guys do you remember when javascript was the bastard child of html? now its the future
# [02:20] <Neiluj> this is great, I reduce 2 bugs in one case
# [02:21] <Neiluj> do not inject <video> inside a <a> :D
# [02:21] <Neiluj> chrome hates that :D
# [02:21] <cheilmann> digitalfiz: funny you say that - I am actually writing a keynote on that topic for a German Java conference.
# [02:21] <digitalfiz> fail
# [02:21] <cheilmann> I am the only speaker without a tie on the photo
# [02:21] <digitalfiz> cheilmann, i was just thinking about a few years ago wondering how long before javascript dies
# [02:22] <dgathright> lol @ Chris speaking at a Java conference.
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# [02:25] <digitalfiz> all i can remember is dreading all the sites with dynamicdrive crap all over them and wanting to strangle the "web master"
# [02:25] <tw2113> m m m muenster cheese sandwiches tonight :D
# [02:25] <cheilmann> I started with JS as I wanted to work offline on trains (used to be a Perl developer)
# [02:25] <digitalfiz> 300 line scripts to add 2 + 2
# [02:25] <cheilmann> Now it is almost impossible to write JS that doesn't use some web resource
# [02:26] <digitalfiz> thats where the demand is
# [02:26] <tw2113> lawls @ dhtml
# [02:27] <cheilmann> well there is http://dhtml5.com
# [02:27] <tw2113> so i've seen :)
# [02:28] <digitalfiz> that site is AWESOME
# [02:28] <dgathright> At the Java conference be sure to ask them what ever happened to JavaFX. Oh, and I'll give you $5 if you include brian leroux's twitpic of the homeless guy wearing the Java jacket.
# [02:28] <cheilmann> JavaFaces
# [02:29] <cheilmann> so many great(!) ideas
# [02:29] <cheilmann> then again I am looking forward to this - we need to go more to backend conferences and talk about HTML5
# [02:29] <cheilmann> no need to bore the same audiences with repetition
# [02:30] <cheilmann> Oh, new technology to make images on the web expire after a certain time... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12215921
# [02:30] <cheilmann> wouldn't serving them through an API do the same?
# [02:31] <cheilmann> oh, it needs a browser add-on
# [02:32] <cheilmann> hooray we have ipix again http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12215921
# [02:32] <tw2113> hmmm, there's an idea....javascript/php/whathaveyou that string replaces <!> with the html5 doctype
# [02:32] <dgathright> Uhhh.... can't you just take a screencap? That's a stupid idea.
# [02:32] <cheilmann> always was, always is
# [02:32] <tw2113> that way i could put <!> for my doctype in my template files, but when you validate, the latter is served to the browser :D
# [02:32] <dgathright> happy hour time! later doods.
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# [02:33] <cheilmann> the only reason for the doctype is causing standards mode
# [02:33] <tw2113> i do it cause it makes me cool on the interweb
# [02:36] <cheilmann> you keep that up and you'll get chicks - I heard about that guy once
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# [02:37] <tw2113> one could only hope
# [02:38] <cheilmann> Oh I just remembered http://www.monkeysaudio.com/ - shame that one never got made open
# [02:42] <tw2113> oooh tempting....amonkeysuncle.com is available
# [02:42] <digitalfiz> bwahahaha
# [02:43] <digitalfiz> i would have thought that would be taken
# [02:43] <tw2113> illbeamonkeysuncle.com is parked with godaddy
# [02:44] <digitalfiz> im tempted to purchase it just because
# [02:44] <digitalfiz> but i have a few domains with the same purpose just because
# [02:44] <cheilmann> Just got myself a 22" LCD to watch movies on
# [02:44] <cheilmann> 100 GBP instead of 153
# [02:45] <cheilmann> sounded like a good idea
# [02:45] <digitalfiz> you know that makes me mad everytime i see 22" ws's for less then $200
# [02:45] <digitalfiz> i bought mine a few years agot cost me $500
# [02:45] <digitalfiz> ago
# [02:45] <digitalfiz> now you can get one for like $150
# [02:46] <tw2113> that's always the case
# [02:46] <tw2113> the joys of early adaptors :P
# [02:46] <digitalfiz> i know you would think id be used to it by now but no
# [02:47] <tw2113> the problem with finding out good domain names are available....finding uses for them
# [02:48] <cheilmann> OK time for bed
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# [02:49] <digitalfiz> im sure twitter started that way tw2113
# [02:49] <digitalfiz> twitter.com was bought and the question was asked "now what can we do with this domain, its cool but the name doesnt mean anything..."
# [02:49] <digitalfiz> then BAM
# [02:50] <digitalfiz> who knew knowing when your buddy us taking a shit would be so popular
# [02:50] <tw2113> i have started using cynicalchicken.net in the past couple months :D
# [02:51] <digitalfiz> sounds like a crappy hand drawn web comic in the making
# [02:51] <tw2113> i'm treating it like tumblr
# [02:51] <tw2113> except it's WordPress :O
# [02:51] <digitalfiz> lol
# [02:51] <digitalfiz> wordpress ftw
# [02:53] <tw2113> pretty much
# [02:53] <digitalfiz> im a big fan of wordpress it keeps money in my pockets
# [02:54] <tw2113> extremely customizable
# [02:55] <digitalfiz> they should start pushing html5ism
# [02:55] <tw2113> there's some in the default theme
# [02:55] <digitalfiz> the gradiant right?
# [02:56] <digitalfiz> gradient
# [02:56] <tw2113> the doctype and some semantic stuff, from what i recall
# [02:56] <tw2113> i don't look at it much
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# [03:20] <Neiluj> damn, wasn't easy to understand...
# [03:20] <Neiluj> wasn't about injecting the <video> itself
# [03:20] <Neiluj> it was about injecting in its parent
# [03:20] <Neiluj> http://zeedev.aaz.fr/chrome-video-autoplay-bug/
# [03:20] <Neiluj> paul_irish: enough reduced to report ? ;-)
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# [03:37] <Neiluj> paul_irish_: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=70328
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# [03:39] <paul_irish_> Neiluj: !!! BEAUTIFUL reduction
# [03:39] <paul_irish_> :D
# [03:40] <Neiluj> thanks :D
# [03:40] <Neiluj> the original situation was far from this...
# [03:41] <Neiluj> back to paid-work now...
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# [03:47] <Neiluj> I still haven't found a way to reduce the "still-plays-even-after-changing-page" bug btw
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# [05:11] <Neiluj> schizophrenic ?
# [05:13] <dgathright> Back! and kinda drunk. But that's the point of happy hours, right? So who wants some JS coded up for them. I'm ready to rock.
# [05:15] <Neiluj> it's 5AM in here but I'm going to join and take a beer in the fridge...
# [05:16] <dgathright> Yeah!
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# [05:17] <dgathright> But if you really want to join the party, you gotta queue up some N.W.A. as well.
# [05:17] <Neiluj> there's no time to drink a beer -_-
# [05:17] <Neiluj> you got to explain NWA man...
# [05:17] <dgathright> Whoa whoa whoa... when is there ever not enough time for beer.
# [05:17] <Neiluj> I'm french so.. niggaz with attitudes?
# [05:18] <Neiluj> damn google
# [05:19] <dgathright> Yeah. Intro to NWA 101: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMZi25Pq3T8
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# [05:21] <Neiluj> yeah old skool
# [05:23] <dgathright> Hellz yeah. NWA don't give a fuck. They use <table> for layouts. HTML5? Pssh.... they rock HTML 0.5. Bust some <font> tags up in yo face.
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# [05:25] <Neiluj> they got style=""
# [05:25] <dgathright> that++
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# [05:30] <dgathright> If Eazy-E were a webdev, he'd code his shit using MS FrontPage, and you'd still submit it to Hacker News because of how badass it is.
# [05:30] <tw2113> http://trpdsah5.tumblr.com/
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# [10:17] <danbeam> sorry if this question has been asked and answered a ton already, but given that HTML5 is now just HTML, are efforts in promoting and branding the newer features in browsers as "HTML5" going to continue?
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# [10:23] <obert-> danbeam?
# [10:24] <danbeam> obert-, yeah?
# [10:24] <obert-> didnt gotcha the q
# [10:25] <danbeam> uh, what's up?
# [10:25] <danbeam> you're not sure what I was asking?
# [10:25] <obert-> yea
# [10:25] <danbeam> I was just asking if the push for branding HTML5 is still there
# [10:25] <danbeam> if the spec is not really gonna be called HTML5 anymore
# [10:25] <danbeam> (well, OK, there is a snapshot)
# [10:26] <danbeam> but from now on it's just ... HTML
# [10:26] <danbeam> not HTML5
# [10:26] <obert-> ...
# [10:26] <obert-> html5 is in beta
# [10:26] <danbeam> http://blog.whatwg.org/html-is-the-new-html5
# [10:26] <obert-> burp
# [10:27] <danbeam> The HTML specification will henceforth just be known as "HTML" (meaning HTML5 is now *officially* just "HTML")
# [10:28] <obert-> no idea
# [10:28] <obert-> who are them?
# [10:28] <obert-> html 3 html4 html5 whats wrong with that?
# [10:29] <danbeam> not sure, I'm not the one that made that change, :P
# [10:30] <obert-> which change?
# [10:30] <obert-> sorry but or i misunderstood or i dont just get the point:P
# [10:30] <obert-> w3c is the reference to trust
# [10:31] <obert-> not that whatwgiwhatyouget
# [10:31] <danbeam> I'm not entirely sure about that anymore, :P
# [10:32] <obert-> html5 is supposed to be the next xhtml since at w3c they had stopped to write xhtml specs in order to be concentrated over html5
# [10:32] <obert-> as far as i know
# [10:32] <obert-> i always used html4 almost
# [10:32] <obert-> not always but i prefer html4
# [10:33] <obert-> then in theory html5 will be official some days
# [10:33] <obert-> and bye bye xhtml
# [10:35] <obert-> html5 that requires shin.js sounds like to dont be used in production side since it shouldnt be accessible at all,imo
# [10:35] <obert-> *shouldnt/couldnt
# [10:36] <obert-> so i would to continue to use html4 till html5 will be not in beta anymore
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# [10:39] <obert-> i got a long point:P
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# [11:05] <jo-erlend> how is it possible that older browsers, like IE6 is able to handle the new doctype without problems?
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# [11:09] <obert-> jo-erlend html.js
# [11:09] <obert-> shin.js sorry
# [11:09] <obert-> shiv
# [11:09] <jo-erlend> is that something we need to include, or do the browser manufacturers provide them?
# [11:10] <obert-> include
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# [11:11] <obert-> article, aside, header { display: block;} plus
# [11:11] <jo-erlend> hmm. I was told in #CSS that older browsers would not go into quicks mode if you just use <!doctype html>. That's not true?
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# [11:11] <obert-> dunno
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# [11:12] <jo-erlend> oh, you were talking about features. I was just talking about accepting the new doctype as a standards mode doctype.
# [11:13] <obert-> in order to get html5 works
# [11:14] <obert-> <aside> <header> and other basic structure
# [11:14] <obert-> elements
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# [11:23] <jo-erlend> yes, I know that, but that wasn't my question.
# [11:25] <obert-> dunno about dtd and quirks mode
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# [11:26] <jo-erlend> no, I keep finding references that seem to confirm that all current browsers will accept and properly use, the <!doctype html>, even if they don't support html5. The question is how.
# [11:28] <seutje> browsers never cared about dtd afaik
# [11:28] <seutje> some IEs just need a minimum of crap there to avoid quirks mode
# [11:28] <seutje> "they don't support html5" is rather meaningless to me btw
# [11:39] <mike5w3c> jo-erlend: <!doctype html> prevents quirks mode in any browser
# [11:39] <mike5w3c> that is its sole purpose for existing
# [11:39] <mike5w3c> at this point
# [11:40] <mike5w3c> for any browser that actually has a quirks mode
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# [11:42] <jo-erlend> mike5w3c, yes, but how? If that doctype is new in HTML5, how does IE6 know about it?
# [11:42] <mike5w3c> it's not new in HTML5
# [11:42] <mike5w3c> the behavior associated with it is not new
# [11:43] <jo-erlend> the string is new though?
# [11:43] <mike5w3c> the spec for it is new
# [11:43] <mike5w3c> but it is what has for a long time been the minimum string necessary to prevent quirks mode
# [11:43] <jo-erlend> then, how come we've been using these complicated doctypes in order to be in standard mode until now?
# [11:44] <mike5w3c> :)
# [11:44] <mike5w3c> because we were sold a bill of goods :)
# [11:44] <jo-erlend> ... you can't be serious?
# [11:45] <mike5w3c> browsers have never ever done anything with the public ID and system ID parts of doctypes
# [11:45] <mike5w3c> beyond just looking at them enough to decide whether to go into quirks mode or not
# [11:46] <mike5w3c> it was always just a misguided hack for the beginning
# [11:46] <mike5w3c> one we are unfortunately stuck with forever now
# [11:46] <mike5w3c> but I am serious
# [11:46] <jo-erlend> but I've never, ever, seen anyone use <!doctype html> before... And some of them have been quite knowledgeable wrt web.
# [11:46] <obert-> you?
# [11:47] <mike5w3c> jo-erlend: well, there are a lot of pages using it now
# [11:48] <jo-erlend> mike5w3c, it's not that I distrust you, but I really find this quite hard to believe. If this has been possible for years and years, with multiple open source browsers and thousands of webdesigners... And it's managed to stay a secret? Perhaps aliens _did_ crash at Roswell. :>
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# [11:49] <mike5w3c> I don't know that it was a secret, it was just that people copied and pasted the longer doctypes because it's really not a whole lot of work to do that
# [11:50] <mike5w3c> just dropping in one big opaque string into your templates or docs
# [11:50] <Peter`> It was probably one of these "Oh... shit" moments when people figured it'd even work in older browsers
# [11:50] <jo-erlend> that's actually been one of the most annoying things about the web for me. And I've seen quite a number of people who just skip the doctype entirely, presumably because of that.
# [11:51] <jo-erlend> hmm. But wouldn't this also mean that you don't have to even switch doctype in order to use html5?
# [11:52] <mike5w3c> jo-erlend: in a sane world, that would be the rational thing to do (omit the doctype) … unfortunately the platform is not so sane
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# [11:52] <mike5w3c> you don't have to switch doctypes for any processing reasons
# [11:53] <mike5w3c> behavior with the legacy doctypes remains the same and will always remain the same
# [11:53] <mike5w3c> because we can't break compat with existing content
# [11:53] <mike5w3c> or won't
# [11:53] <jo-erlend> so, even this doctype will be ok to use with HTML5 documents? <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
# [11:53] <mike5w3c> for processing, yeah
# [11:53] <jo-erlend> what else would it affect?
# [11:53] <mike5w3c> as far as validity, I think the spec currently defines that doctype as "conforming but obsolete"
# [11:54] <mike5w3c> jo-erlend: validation
# [11:54] <jo-erlend> ah, right.
# [11:54] <mike5w3c> the validator will currently emit a warning if you use that doctype
# [11:54] <mike5w3c> validator.nu I mean
# [11:54] <mike5w3c> or the W3C validator if you manually ask it to validate your doc as HTML5
# [11:55] <mike5w3c> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/syntax.html#obsolete-permitted-doctype-string
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# [11:56] <mike5w3c> or http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/syntax.html#deprecated-doctype if you want a slightly different take on that
# [11:57] <mike5w3c> http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/syntax.html#permitted-public-ID-system-ID-combination
# [11:58] <mike5w3c> those 6 doctypes there remain valid but deprecated
# [11:58] <mike5w3c> and the spec says conformance checkers must emit warnings if people use them
# [11:59] <mike5w3c> btw, there's one more doctype that's also valid
# [11:59] <mike5w3c> http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/syntax.html#legacy-tool-compatible-doctype
# [11:59] <mike5w3c> due to inability of some XML tools to output the <!doctype html> string
# [12:00] <mike5w3c> <!doctype HTML system "about:legacy-compat">
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# [12:06] <jo-erlend> thanks. This was very informative.
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# [13:33] <DukeDrake> hi
# [13:33] <DukeDrake> what about all the "Bad value" ... ": invalid return" errors for onclick or onsubmit?
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# [13:40] <DukeDrake> for example: why is this not valid? onsubmit="return validate();"
# [13:44] <DukeDrake> anyone alive?
# [13:44] <benschwarz> don't use inline events
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# [13:44] <DukeDrake> benschwarz: ah =)
# [13:44] <DukeDrake> benschwarz: and instead .... ?
# [13:44] <benschwarz> its considered a poor practice DukeDrake
# [13:45] <benschwarz> use javascript, either in a <script> tag or an external .js file
# [13:45] <DukeDrake> "poor practice"?
# [13:45] <benschwarz> if you're setting a lot of events, maybe look at a library, like jquery, if selectors only maybe zepto.js
# [13:46] <benschwarz> DukeDrake: something that is not recommended
# [13:46] <DukeDrake> ah
# [13:46] <DukeDrake> what's the easiest way to set up an eventlistener in my case? It's the only time I need an eventlistener...
# [13:50] <benschwarz> you want to use addEventListener()
# [13:50] <DukeDrake> k
# [13:51] <DukeDrake> thanx a lot =)
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# [13:51] <benschwarz> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element.addEventListener
# [13:51] <benschwarz> Oh damn
# [13:51] <benschwarz> oh well
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# [15:31] <beevi7> can i combine several media queries?
# [15:31] <beevi7> i need something like
# [15:31] <beevi7> @media all and (orientation: landscape) and (max-height: 700px) {}
# [15:32] <beevi7> @media all and (orientation: landscape and max-height: 700px) {}
# [15:32] <beevi7> which one is correct? 1 i guess
# [15:33] <beevi7> yes
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# [15:54] <Drule> Hi. What's the correct use of <section>, <article>, and <header>? I see them being used in completely contradicting manners.
# [15:54] <Drule> For example, which element is supposed to be the wrapper?
# [15:57] <Pewpewarrows> Drule: none of them
# [15:57] <Pewpewarrows> HTML5 doesn't mean you completel stop using divs and spans
# [15:58] <Pewpewarrows> for positional or helper elements, div is still the way to go from what I've seen/done
# [15:58] <Pewpewarrows> besides that, header is for the actual top header bar thingy in your layout (if it exists)
# [15:59] <Drule> Is the <body> tag still used? Because I saw a HTML5 example file that used <header>, followed by <section>, followed by <aside> and then <footer>
# [15:59] <Drule> for a standard two col layout
# [15:59] <Pewpewarrows> article is a bit loose in its definition, but I basically use it if the content inside of it is either intended to be syndicated (through rss, atom, etc), or can be thought of as being syndicated even if I don't ever actually syndicate it
# [16:00] <Pewpewarrows> yes you still need a body tag, even though all major browsers will insert it for you, it's still cleaner to specify it yourself
# [16:01] <Drule> Okay, but what's the point of <section>?
# [16:01] <Drule> Is it used to mark sections within articles, such as an article's header, footer etc.
# [16:01] <Pewpewarrows> section and aside are just semantic cousins of the div
# [16:01] <Drule> :-/
# [16:01] <Drule> Ya, but what's their purpose
# [16:01] <Pewpewarrows> sure, you can use them within an <article>
# [16:02] <Pewpewarrows> they're just that, semantic
# [16:02] <Drule> Well, could you also use <header> within article?
# [16:02] <Pewpewarrows> for labeling a piece of the page that's either a "section" or off the "the side"
# [16:02] <Pewpewarrows> you could, sure
# [16:03] <Drule> Well *should* I
# [16:03] <Drule> that's what I'm trying to figure out
# [16:03] <Drule> this all seems very vague to me
# [16:03] <Drule> and I'm getting mixed signals for sites claiming to be good at this
# [16:04] <Pewpewarrows> header, section, aside, and footer are semantic cousins of the div
# [16:04] <Pewpewarrows> they just describe something about what they're containing
# [16:05] <Pewpewarrows> if you think you're correctly describing something by using one, you're probably right
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# [16:11] <Drule> Pewpewarrows: Yeah but they must have a purpose, such as interpretation by crawlers and readers
# [16:12] <Drule> there must be rules governing the elements
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# [16:14] <Pewpewarrows> Drule: http://www.diveintohtml5.org/semantics.html
# [16:14] <Pewpewarrows> scroll down to new semantic elements in html5
# [16:15] <Pewpewarrows> if you want more concrete definitions
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# [16:23] <mikesusz> wow has canvas changed a lot recently? just trying to jump in but example code from ~1yr old howtos is all failing stuff like getContext
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# [16:26] <miketaylr> that sounds...strange
# [16:26] <miketaylr> canvas hasn't really changed at all
# [16:27] <mikesusz> miketaylr - ah okay then it must be me :) i'll keep digging
# [16:27] <miketaylr> mikesusz: paste some code that's being weird?
# [16:27] <dgathright> are the howtos from w3schools? =P
# [16:27] <miketaylr> heh
# [16:28] <Drule> Pewpewarrows: Yeah I have read documentation like this, but I think the definition of <section> is the exact same as <div>
# [16:28] <Drule> Well, almost.
# [16:28] <Pewpewarrows> Drule: that's because it basically is
# [16:29] <Drule> Yeah, and that's what's confusing me.
# [16:29] <mikesusz> miketaylr - aha. i stripped out the library abstraction and am figured it out in raw js :)
# [16:29] <Pewpewarrows> everywhere you used to use div, ask yourself if it makes more sense as a section, aside, header, or footer
# [16:29] <miketaylr> mikesusz: nice
# [16:30] <Pewpewarrows> you're not going to get a neat exact definition and lookup cheatsheet of when to use section Drule
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# [16:30] <Drule> Pewpewarrows: This is what I have done, and in the end I ended up using <section> for everything I previously used DIVs for, so they basically replaced DIV for me
# [16:31] <Drule> so I am asking myself, whats the difference between DIV and section
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# [16:32] <dgathright> drule: If you need to just wrap a few elements inside something else for something like styling, use <div>.
# [16:32] <Pewpewarrows> yeah if you're blindly find/replacing div with section it's about as worse as not using section at all
# [16:33] <Pewpewarrows> http://blog.whatwg.org/is-not-just-a-semantic
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# [16:34] <dgathright> <div> is just a generic container. <section> is a blob of cohesive content. Maybe a good way to think of it is what most people refer to "modules" or "components" that you build a page with.
# [16:36] <Drule> Ok, so they should literally be used as headers and footers for <article>
# [16:36] <Drule> :-|
# [16:37] <Drule> otherwise I would use <article> or <aside>
# [16:37] <Drule> for whatever panels or modules you want to make
# [16:37] <dgathright> Example: http://html5doctor.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/html5-after1.gif
# [16:37] <Drule> depending on whether or not they contain information
# [16:37] <Drule> should <nav> be <aside> in that case?
# [16:38] <Drule> but yes i see
# [16:38] <dgathright> <nav>, <header>, and <footer> are specific types of <section>, and <section> is a specific type of a <div>.
# [16:38] <Drule> alright
# [16:39] <dgathright> http://html5doctor.com/the-section-element/
# [16:41] <Pewpewarrows> Drule: hope you get it this point, we really can't explain it any more than that
# [16:41] <Drule> Ya I think I do.
# [16:41] <Drule> Imma try to make another page from scratch
# [16:41] <Drule> Thanks for the pointers.
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# [16:53] <Michael> paul_irish, I need your help because you're a smart guy
# [16:55] <Michael> I'm looking for a velocity/decay algorithm for spinning down a pseudo-3d-model that uses single images
# [16:55] <Michael> We have it working but the last few ticks are kind of choppy
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# [17:16] <thatryan> http://htmllogo.org/ :(
# [17:16] <thatryan> but i LIKE the logo
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# [17:21] <miketaylr> thatryan: you can continue to use the logo :)
# [17:22] <thatryan> miketaylr: oh i totally am :)
# [17:22] <thatryan> my shirt is on its way ha
# [17:22] <miketaylr> heh
# [17:22] <miketaylr> i need to send away for some free stickers
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# [17:23] <thatryan> I got a sticker!
# [17:23] <miketaylr> politics aside, the logo is pretty
# [17:23] <thatryan> from a sticker fairy heh
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# [17:25] <nimbupani> i knoww that logo is pretty pretty.
# [17:25] <tw2113> it's all orange n shit :D
# [17:25] <thatryan> word!
# [17:25] <thatryan> heh it is now my iPhone background too :p
# [17:26] <tw2113> i still have a background of a candle with a water flame
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# [17:34] <serio> miketaylr, I'm on your websites browsing your pics
# [17:35] <miketaylr> haha, fun weird things there
# [17:35] <serio> indeed!
# [17:35] <serio> wtf happened here: http://miketaylr.com/post/15643c48.png
# [17:35] <serio> ?
# [17:35] <miketaylr> that's me in norway a week after getting hit by a car
# [17:36] <miketaylr> i've got one of those scars on the other side to :X
# [17:36] <thatryan> stop getting hit by cars! :)
# [17:36] <miketaylr> *too
# [17:36] <nimbupani> bastard car drivers
# [17:37] <nimbupani> good thing i am not one.
# [17:38] <miketaylr> i wish i would have been hit in norway, i'd have a lot more money
# [17:38] <nimbupani> :'(
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# [18:08] <Michael> lol who made http://htmllogo.org/?
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# [18:11] <ben_c> the whois offers no help to who made that
# [18:11] <ben_c> Name: Guy Incognito
# [18:11] <ben_c> Address 1: 123 Fake Street
# [18:11] <ben_c> City: Springfield
# [18:12] <ben_c> Name: Guy Incognito
# [18:12] <ben_c> Address 1: 123 Fake Street
# [18:12] <ben_c> City: Springfield
# [18:13] <thatryan> i know that guy
# [18:13] <thatryan> :)
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# [18:16] <thatryan> ben_c: where you the Ben at the meetup last night?
# [18:17] <ben_c> sadly not
# [18:17] <thatryan> ah ok, tryin' to remember the peeps I met ;)
# [18:18] <ben_c> what was the meetup and why wasn't I invited? :P
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# [18:19] <thatryan> lol it was javascript deal
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# [18:42] <paul_irish> ben is not local. :)
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# [18:43] <paul_irish> Michael: cant help you with that. i'm not that smart.
# [18:43] <Michael> it's okay one of our sr guys is doing it
# [18:43] <paul_irish> phew
# [18:44] <Michael> lol
# [18:44] <thatryan> well I KNOW I met a Ben ;)
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# [19:05] <Michael> Be that is it may or may not be
# [19:05] <Michael> as
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# [19:25] <dilvie> paul_irish: Love 11 More Things.
# [19:25] <dilvie> paul_irish: Did you ever consider a career in singing?
# [19:25] <paul_irish> great!
# [19:26] <paul_irish> was in an a capella group. for two weeks!
# [19:26] <dilvie> Nice. =)
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# [19:27] <dilvie> Thank for the tip about cssHooks. I've been kindof keeping one eye on jQuery changes, but that one slipped under my radar -- and shouldn't have. That's very convenient.
# [19:27] <paul_irish> totes
# [19:29] <dilvie> The shiny new AJAX stuff distracted me. =)
# [19:29] <paul_irish> diggin the deffereds?
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# [19:31] <dilvie> Yeah. We had some cool stuff like that in Node.JS land, but it fell out of fashion a bit.
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# [19:32] <dilvie> I think it's very cool stuff. I'm going to play with it for my next pet project.
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# [19:33] <dilvie> paul_irish: Ever seen music trackers? They used to be popular for writing video game and demoscene music.
# [19:33] <dilvie> paul_irish: I'm going to implement a simple tracker in HTML5.
# [19:33] <dilvie> with collaboration features. =)
# [19:33] <dilvie> fancy, eh?
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# [19:40] <rworth> are there any syntax highlighters that someone has updated to use web workers?
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# [19:59] <paul_irish> rworth: as far as ive heard.. the dom manip part of the syntaxhighlight is the most cost.. so when people have done the parsing in a web worker, the benefit is small
# [20:00] <antonkovalyov> holy fuck
# [20:00] <rworth> paul_irish: good to know, thanks
# [20:00] <antonkovalyov> why jsconf tickets are so damn expensive
# [20:00] <nimbupani> :)
# [20:00] <antonkovalyov> pycon is 450
# [20:00] <mikesusz> didn't jsconf sell out in like an hour?
# [20:01] <antonkovalyov> early bird did i guess
# [20:01] <mikesusz> supply/demand in action
# [20:01] <antonkovalyov> they still have general admission tickets
# [20:02] <antonkovalyov> fuck supply/demand :)
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# [20:03] <mikesusz> that's less than an event apart or something
# [20:03] <antonkovalyov> and no list of talks yet
# [20:03] <mikesusz> and cheap hotel. and portland is a freaking awesome city to visit
# [20:03] <paul_irish> yesterday i learned that anton is an anarchist.
# [20:03] <Michael> aw it's in Portland too
# [20:03] <Michael> I love Oregon
# [20:03] <antonkovalyov> oh god
# [20:03] <paul_irish> who doesn't belive in market forces, apparently.
# [20:03] <paul_irish> :)
# [20:04] <nimbupani> ?hi5 antonkovalyov
# [20:04] <bot-t> ⁵ antonkovalyov
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# [20:04] <antonkovalyov> hey
# [20:04] <antonkovalyov> btw
# [20:04] <antonkovalyov> nimbupani, i shipped your package
# [20:04] <nimbupani> THANKS antonkovalyov!
# [20:05] <nimbupani> appreciate it!
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# [20:05] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, i have your tshirt with me now :)
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# [20:05] <antonkovalyov> gonna carry it in backpack
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# [20:05] <antonkovalyov> sooo
# [20:05] <antonkovalyov> who is going to jsconf?
# [20:05] <antonkovalyov> i need to justify $1k conference
# [20:05] <mikesusz> not me - too expensive!~
# [20:06] <antonkovalyov> i paid like 350 for google io last year
# [20:06] <antonkovalyov> and got two fucking phones and a google tv
# [20:06] * paul_irish is.
# [20:06] <antonkovalyov> before that i paid 450 for google io
# [20:06] <antonkovalyov> and also got a phone
# [20:07] <antonkovalyov> so jsconf has to be AMAZING because all the talks will be online sooner or later
# [20:07] <paul_irish> if you like javascript developers. and you like drinking.. then yes it's AMAZING
# [20:07] <jdalton> ya its the bestester
# [20:07] <mikesusz> so why don't you just buy a phone and skip the conference? cheaper
# [20:08] <jdalton> its about meeting the devs
# [20:08] <jdalton> the talks are nice
# [20:08] <jdalton> but face time with the devs is the good part
# [20:08] <jdalton> and then all the fun
# [20:08] <jdalton> its totally worth it
# [20:08] <paul_irish> because face time with people like jdalton is good so that you realize he's not just an enormous douche on the internet.
# [20:08] <mikesusz> jdalton - agreed
# [20:08] <paul_irish> :D
# [20:08] <jdalton> ya, my wife tells me to cut it out all the time
# [20:08] <jdalton> she follows my twitter now
# [20:09] <paul_irish> hehe
# [20:09] <paul_irish> can i follow her?
# [20:09] <jdalton> she has a private twitter thang or smth
# [20:09] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, what is overlap with jquery conf in terms of developers?
# [20:10] <paul_irish> the yayquery crew pretty much.
# [20:10] <antonkovalyov> that's like 4 people
# [20:10] <paul_irish> well there you go
# [20:10] <antonkovalyov> i call bs
# [20:10] <antonkovalyov> :)
# [20:10] <jdalton> its rad
# [20:10] <mikesusz> actually jsconf is probably over the head of ppl like me
# [20:10] <paul_irish> jquery conf talks are about jquery
# [20:10] <mikesusz> but jquery conf is ideal
# [20:10] <paul_irish> jsconf talks are never about jquery
# [20:10] <jdalton> + crockford + brendan
# [20:11] <antonkovalyov> crockford will be on jsconf?
# [20:11] <antonkovalyov> sold
# [20:11] <antonkovalyov> jk :)
# [20:11] <jdalton> we usually is or was the last 2 confs
# [20:11] <miketaylr> crockford is overrated
# [20:11] <jdalton> ya but he is like battle hardened
# [20:11] <miketaylr> just watch him on yahoo tv instead
# [20:11] <antonkovalyov> ?Douglas Crockford
# [20:11] <bot-t> The Immutable Singleton
# [20:11] <mikesusz> if it was crockford AND a free phone
# [20:11] <mikesusz> crockfone
# [20:11] <paul_irish> ?crock
# [20:11] <bot-t> Your sadly pathetic bleatings are harshing my mellow.
# [20:11] <nimbupani> LOLS
# [20:12] <nimbupani> crockfone!
# [20:12] <jdalton> it would be rad if he talked like that
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# [20:12] <jdalton> I havent gotten the nerve to talk to either of em
# [20:12] <miketaylr> maybe he'll repeat his IE6 & HTML5 MUST DIE talk for the Nth time
# [20:12] <jdalton> I would prolly just studder and mumble somthing
# [20:13] <jdalton> I kinda thought, initially, who is the crock guy and why should I care what he says
# [20:13] <jdalton> but then I wiki'ed him
# [20:13] <ajpiano> at TXJS i got to stand there and look annoyed after his talk ran long
# [20:13] <ajpiano> #dominated
# [20:13] <jdalton> and saw his history n jazz so, I still think his jslint jazz is lame, but he's moving things along in js so thats good
# [20:14] <miketaylr> eich is a better speaker, imo
# [20:14] <antonkovalyov> jsconf just lost 4 developers that wanted to attend both jsconf and nodeconf from disqus :(
# [20:14] <ajpiano> ya
# [20:14] <miketaylr> and easier to speak to in person
# [20:14] <ajpiano> i did learn A LOT from crocks YUI videos when i was just getting started with JS thgh
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# [20:14] <jdalton> i gotta work my way up to eich
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# [20:14] <antonkovalyov> i went to crock's talks at yahoo
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# [20:14] <antonkovalyov> he is okay guy in person
# [20:15] <shepazu> I have to say, though I like Eich personally, the couple of times I've seen him speak I was underwhelmed
# [20:15] <jdalton> my buddy emailed him
# [20:15] <jdalton> and got a really rude, short, reply back
# [20:15] <miketaylr> lol shepazu
# [20:15] <nimbupani> gods on a pedestal
# [20:15] <miketaylr> i have to say i was impressed that he showed like a 7 minute evil dead youtube clip at jsconf
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# [20:16] <jdalton> shepazu u shudda seen him talk about proxies
# [20:16] <jdalton> it was bomb.com
# [20:16] <shepazu> Eich is a great idea man, but not a great presenter... he rambles a bit, talked more about the ECMA process and history of JS than the actual new features
# [20:16] <shepazu> but maybe he was just off his game those times
# [20:17] <miketaylr> i was sold when he had a slide with Morrissey
# [20:17] <jdalton> well proxies was like bleeding edge new stuff
# [20:18] <paul_irish> jdalton: we're getting a community-driven fork of jslint going
# [20:18] <jdalton> \o/
# [20:18] <jdalton> DO IT ZOMG
# [20:18] <jdalton> remove all the `style` suggestions
# [20:18] <jdalton> and just the critical error jazz
# [20:18] <jdalton> *and just keep the critical..
# [20:18] <paul_irish> https://github.com/jshint/jshint
# [20:19] <jdalton> I would jshit that
# [20:19] <jdalton> wait
# [20:19] <jdalton> that sounds wrong
# [20:19] <thatryan> lol
# [20:19] <jdalton> js-hit that
# [20:19] <thatryan> very
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# [20:19] <shepazu> but if you want to see a fact-filled roller-coaster of webdev infotainment... go see a paul_irish presentation
# [20:20] <nimbupani> awwww
# [20:20] <shepazu> "Web Pimp — A Paul Irish Production"
# [20:20] <nimbupani> :D
# [20:21] <paul_irish> but if you're SOOO over roller-coasters, doug shepers has the best SVG jawdropping presos of all time. OF ALL TIME
# [20:21] * shepazu hasn't had the chance to see nimbupani present, but if it's half as #bada55 as her thug-life html5 gangsign photo, it would knock me out
# [20:21] <miketaylr> hmm wait, aren't there SVG rollercoasters in those presos?
# [20:21] <nimbupani> HA HA HA HA
# [20:21] <shepazu> miketaylr: guilty
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# [20:22] <paul_irish> good call, mikey
# [20:22] <miketaylr> just need an SVG morrissey
# [20:22] <nimbupani> welll i have not presented enough to be #bada55 yet O_O
# [20:22] <shepazu> paul_irish, Imma let you finish, but you have the best presentations of all time
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# [20:22] <paul_irish> svg cheeseburger.
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# [20:23] <shepazu> nimbupani: the first 4 times I presented I was both bad and ass, but not badass
# [20:23] <miketaylr> zomg
# [20:23] <shepazu> my presentations now are ok, but when I started, I was worthless
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# [20:25] <nimbupani> ha ha aha ha ha shepazu thankssss :)
# [20:25] <nimbupani> that makes me feel much better
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# [20:27] <serio> lol
# [20:27] <serio> "SVG morrissey"
# [20:30] <shepazu> vector around the fountain
# [20:30] <miketaylr> :')
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# [20:35] <serio> I saw this really cute girl with this highly detailed Morrisey tatoo on her arm the other day
# [20:35] <serio> like
# [20:35] <serio> WHY!?
# [20:35] <serio> ?define: emo
# [20:35] <bot-t> serio, emo - (noun) A particular style of hardcore punk rock.
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# [20:35] <serio> pfsh
# [20:36] <paul_irish> worst definition ever.
# [20:36] * serio nods
# [20:37] <digitalfiz> ?define: hipster
# [20:37] <bot-t> digitalfiz, hipster - (noun) A person who is keenly interested in the latest trends or fashions.
# [20:37] <digitalfiz> ?define: hippie
# [20:37] <bot-t> digitalfiz, hippie - (noun) A teenager who imitated the Beatniks.
# [20:37] <digitalfiz> lol
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# [20:48] <thatryan> lol hippie definition
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# [20:55] <antonkovalyov> seriously people
# [20:55] <antonkovalyov> they recommend $145/night hotel on jsconf.us
# [20:56] <antonkovalyov> did i miss the day when every js dev got a bag full of cash?
# [20:56] <ajpiano> seriously
# [20:57] <ajpiano> i'm driving to jsconf in my bathtub with wheels
# [20:57] <ajpiano> and then sleeping int
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# [20:57] <antonkovalyov> haha
# [20:58] <thatryan> antonkovalyov: what else you gonna spend dollas on? :)
# [20:58] <thatryan> also, get me a ticket! ha
# [20:59] <antonkovalyov> thatryan, i dunno i'll find something :)
# [20:59] <thatryan> true dat!
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# [21:07] <dilvie> where's the jsconf 2011 site?
# [21:07] <thatryan> ?jsconf
# [21:07] <bot-t> JSConf US 2010 -> http://jsconf.us/2010/
# [21:07] <thatryan> fail
# [21:07] <thatryan> lol
# [21:08] <dilvie> hm
# [21:08] <dilvie> I'll go speak for free if they pay for my travel / hotel stay. =)
# [21:09] <antonkovalyov> jsconf is sold out already
# [21:09] <dilvie> d'oh
# [21:09] <antonkovalyov> i guess i'll go to texas instead :)
# [21:09] <thatryan> texas?
# [21:09] <dilvie> what's in Texas?
# [21:10] <thatryan> cows and stuff
# [21:10] <antonkovalyov> http://texasjavascript.com/
# [21:10] <antonkovalyov> txjs, ~$150 js conference
# [21:10] <antonkovalyov> and it is in austin, which supposed to be a pretty cool city
# [21:12] <dilvie> nic.
# [21:12] <dilvie> nice
# [21:13] <dilvie> when is the 2011 scheduled?
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# [21:14] <antonkovalyov> dunno yet
# [21:15] <paul_irish> https://twitter.com/#!/txjs/status/24552758426210305
# [21:15] <socialhapy> http://bit.ly/eflO8F @txjs: Take this for what you will, but if you like JavaScript and you could be in Texas on June 11th, 2011... keep it open.
# [21:15] <antonkovalyov> oh cool
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# [21:17] <mikesusz> jquery conf was cheap the first year too, then it moved to a hotel and the price went up 500% :P
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# [21:18] <paul_irish> :(
# [21:18] <antonkovalyov> well conf are pretty good business
# [21:18] <antonkovalyov> i understand them from a business point of view
# [21:19] <mikesusz> i guess for out of towners (especially those whose employers were footing the bill) it had to be awesome
# [21:19] <mikesusz> for locals to fight their way to Logan was un-fun
# [21:19] <mikesusz> (sorry talking about Boston specifically)
# [21:20] <paul_irish> it sucked.
# [21:20] <mikesusz> hope tx can 'keep it real'
# [21:20] <paul_irish> tx keeps its so effing real it hurts.
# [21:20] <paul_irish> rmurphey of yayQuery did it last year.. this year slexaxton is organizing
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# [21:28] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, what sucked?
# [21:28] <antonkovalyov> tx or jquery?
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# [21:38] <paul_irish> the last jquery conf in boston. logistically. :(
# [21:38] <antonkovalyov> ah
# [21:38] <Michael> basstin
# [21:40] <paul_irish> bahstin or bawstin.
# [21:40] <paul_irish> geez
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# [21:44] <comatose_kid> Bump is hiring HTML5 developers in Mountain View, CA. We're working on fun, challenging stuff that lots of people use. Please check out http://bu.mp/jobs . Email me for more info (ajay at bu.mp)
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# [21:47] <paul_irish> sweet
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# [21:48] <serio> any free ticks txjs?
# [21:48] <serio> maybe if I draw a lolrus?
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# [21:50] <davidmurdoch> fluid layout question coming up...
# [21:50] <craigbarnes> I just went away for a few days, check my feed reader and now I'm confused
# [21:50] <craigbarnes> W3C did a blog post renouncing the title HTML5 in favour of just HTML
# [21:50] <shepazu> craigbarnes: that happens to me after a few minutes
# [21:51] <craigbarnes> and there's now a HTML5 logo
# [21:51] <craigbarnes> what order did that happen in and isn't it kind of contradictory?
# [21:51] <shepazu> craigbarnes: no, WHATWG did their announcement, perhaps in reaction to W3C's release of a logo
# [21:51] <serio> they did that cuz I registered html10 in advance
# [21:51] <serio> html10.com
# [21:52] <shepazu> serio, damn you!
# [21:52] <craigbarnes> awesome
# [21:52] <antonkovalyov> is there any meaning to chrome's logo?
# [21:52] <shepazu> serio, we are going to have to use HTMLX
# [21:52] <craigbarnes> I think you'll be dead before HTML10 comes around
# [21:52] <serio> antonkovalyov, http://ivanz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/google-chrome-logo.jpg
# [21:52] <davidmurdoch> I've got a header, main section, and a footer. The header and footer are fixed height. The main section contains an iframe that needs to stretch to fill the remaining height (window.height - header - footer). Any help?
# [21:52] <shepazu> craigbarnes: we'll all probably be dead before HTML5 comes around :)
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# [21:53] <antonkovalyov> serio, hah. that does not explain the letter i in the logo
# [21:54] <shepazu> davidmurdoch: I'm assuming you've tweaked the margins and padding?
# [21:54] <craigbarnes> I think the WHATWG should just implement their own standards and leave those sorry suckers at W3C for dead
# [21:54] <craigbarnes> they're always stirring things up for the worse
# [21:54] <craigbarnes> oops, hope none of them are here
# [21:54] <davidmurdoch> shepazu: what do you mean?
# [21:54] <miketaylr> too late >_>
# [21:55] <BrianBlakely> davidmurdoch: Flexbox should fix that on Gecko/Webkit, JavaScript on everything else
# [21:55] <shepazu> davidmurdoch: giving a margin:0 to the iframe, for example?
# [21:56] <serio> antonkovalyov, http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3120/2824577560_b62bb394aa.jpg
# [21:56] <serio> there you have it
# [21:56] <serio> two (very valid) explanations
# [21:56] <antonkovalyov> hmmmmmm
# [21:56] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, ^ are they valid
# [21:56] <shepazu> craigbarnes: I work for W3C, but I don't take your hipster iconoclasm personally :)
# [21:58] <antonkovalyov> "hipster iconoclasm". :D i will put it in the "what people notice first about you" block on okcupid
# [21:58] <davidmurdoch> I'm trying to avoid using the javascript for this. Webkit is the only browser this need to work on. yay. I'm chekcing flexbox now
# [21:59] <paul_irish> davidmurdoch: flexbox plus html,body{ height: 100%; }
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# [22:01] <davidmurdoch> Thanks. I'm working on it now.
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# [22:08] <davidmurdoch> oooohhh, -webkit-box...not box.
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# [22:09] <davidmurdoch> k, NOW i'm working on it.
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# [22:13] <paul_irish> daleharvey: *you* wrote pastebin.me! cool. :) love that one.
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# [22:17] <dilvie> paul_irish: I'm writing an extensible table helper plugin for jQuery. I'm going to make an .fn alias for it. I learned from the jQuery source, too. =)
# [22:18] <dilvie> paul_irish: Right now we're using it to display big tables of data, but I might make a plugin that'll transform any table into a mini spreadsheet app.
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# [22:20] <mike5w3c> http://www.vodori.com/blog/phantom-limb.html is cool
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# [22:20] <mike5w3c> "Phantom Limb makes desktop browsers simulate touch events"
# [22:20] <mike5w3c> "Phantom Limb replaces your mouse cursor with a creepy disembodied hand"
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# [22:21] <miketaylr> haha awesome
# [22:22] <craigbarnes> #apache
# [22:25] <paul_irish> damnnn
# [22:25] <paul_irish> omg this is amazing
# [22:25] <paul_irish> nice find mike5w3c
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# [22:28] <mike5w3c> I found it from this new service I used sometimes, called "twitter"
# [22:28] <mike5w3c> you all should check it out
# [22:29] <craigbarnes> phantom-limb looks pretty awesome
# [22:30] <craigbarnes> the only thing I don't like about the site is...it seems to use "mobile" and "iOS" interchangeably
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# [22:30] <miketaylr> didn't you know apple invented mobile phones?
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# [22:31] <craigbarnes> I wasn't aware of that
# [22:31] <craigbarnes> do you have references?
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# [22:31] <Pewpewarrows> craigbarnes: www.apple.com
# [22:32] <Pewpewarrows> QED
# [22:32] <miketaylr> ^^
# [22:32] <davidmurdoch> hm, why can't an element be display:block while being a child of a display: box? lame.
# [22:33] <miketaylr> craigbarnes: i should warn you i'm not serious
# [22:34] <craigbarnes> miketaylr, I know, sarcasm doesn't translate very well into written form
# [22:34] <craigbarnes> miketaylr, sarcasm in response to sarcasm even less so
# [22:34] <miketaylr> you have to double up on <sarcasm> tags
# [22:34] <craigbarnes> nested
# [22:35] <masondesu> Wow was the phantom limb made on a damn xerox machine? lol
# [22:36] <davidmurdoch> 100% height/width in a display:box's GRANDchildren should fill it's parent. Not get ignored completely.
# [22:39] <craigbarnes> Found the phone you were talking about, pretty cutting edge for it's day: http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQBdY6I7N-KHFUrHoJWeK2xCozhGBzaQ-eZMvqVgluWptRjVjJaw
# [22:39] <miketaylr> :D
# [22:42] <miketaylr> heh, nice that the phantomlimb bookmarklet relies on dropbox
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# [22:50] <dilvie> what's dropbox?
# [22:52] <craigbarnes> dilvie, www.google.com
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# [22:52] <dilvie> omg
# [22:52] <dilvie> this google thing is amazing!
# [22:53] <davidmurdoch> ok, so how can i get the child element of a -webkit-box-flexed element to stretch 100%?
# [22:53] <craigbarnes> actually if you're serious this link is better
# [22:53] <craigbarnes> http://db.tt/jUQz9RS
# [22:53] <dilvie> wtf.. it's finding pics of my ex girlfriend and she's fat now. OK. Google sucks.
# [22:54] <dilvie> I'm switching back to altavista. It's not smart enough to find that crap.
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# [22:57] <daleharvey> paul_irish: cheers, yeh I wrote that years ago, it could do with a little love, I still find it handy though
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# [23:01] <davidmurdoch> paul_irish, do you know of any to keep the usual block-level rules when they are inside of a box-level element?
# [23:01] <paul_irish> boxparent > boxchildren > displayblockkids
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# [23:05] <davidmurdoch> yah. boxchildren is stretching its height to fill its parent. Now if I set height:100% on the displayblockkids they won't budge.
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# [23:07] <davidmurdoch> hmm. i'm using a <nav> element.
# [23:07] <davidmurdoch> that may be causing some problems
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# [23:11] <davidmurdoch> nope. not it. Its just buggy.
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# [23:15] <daleharvey> btw paul_irish, ill be around SF for most of february it looks like, so if theres any html5/js meetups or just drinks then would be awesome to hear about
# [23:16] <paul_irish> ?g javascript sf pub meetup
# [23:16] <bot-t> paul_irish, San Francisco JavaScript Pub Night (San Francisco, CA) - Meetup - http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-JavaScript-Pub-Night/
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# [23:17] <paul_irish> and look at upcoming events http://jsmag.com/blog/2011/01/news-roundup-twitter-onscroll-performance-ace-editor-cssom-modernizr-2-beta/
# [23:17] <daleharvey> lol @ claire being on the front page
# [23:18] <daleharvey> I work with claire so will make sure she gets me there, perfect cheers
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# [23:49] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, kudos for promoting the meetup :)
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# [23:52] <antonkovalyov> hmm i wonder how big are we in google results
# [23:52] <antonkovalyov> ?g san francisco javascript
# [23:52] <bot-t> antonkovalyov, San Francisco JavaScript Pub Night (San Francisco, CA) - Meetup - http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-JavaScript-Pub-Night/
# [23:52] <antonkovalyov> BOOOM!
# [23:54] <davidmurdoch> paul_irish, iframes don't behave correctly with flexbox.
# [23:55] <paul_irish> file it!
# [23:55] <paul_irish> or even better
# [23:55] <paul_irish> take your testcase and show tabatkins in #whatwg and ask him if its broken
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# Session Close: Sat Jan 22 00:00:00 2011

The end :)