/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-02-04 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Feb 04 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:13] <paul_irish> bot-t: tell grantg http://sebleedelisle.com/2011/02/html5-canvas-sprite-optimisation/
# [00:13] <bot-t> paul_irish, Okay.
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# [00:27] <grantg> Peter': noticed the aliased gfx in firefox?
# [00:27] <bot-t> (13 mins 50 secs ago) <paul_irish> tell grantg http://sebleedelisle.com/2011/02/html5-canvas-sprite-optimisation/
# [00:27] <grantg> That's triggered by the CSS property image-rendering
# [00:27] <grantg> I threw a -moz-crisp-edges in there on purpose for the nearest neighbor effect
# [00:28] <grantg> paul_Irish: the sprouts are done in JS, they're composited from within js
# [00:28] <grantg> For per reasons
# [00:29] <grantg> *Perf
# [00:29] <grantg> Since everything is drawn one scamming at a time
# [00:30] <grantg> Not the conventional frame by frame
# [00:30] <grantg> I blit the frames from which the individual scamming renderings are computed into
# [00:31] <grantg> *scanline
# [00:31] <grantg> damn f'ing iPhone autocorrect
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# [00:36] <jo-erlend> what do you think about this markup? http://pastebin.com/uv1wWuh8
# [00:37] <jo-erlend> is it ok to use the a-tag that way, or should I use article as the outer tag?
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# [00:39] <grantg> The Reddit is too damn slow.
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# [00:49] <digitalfiz> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/microsofts-bing-uses-google-search.html
# [00:49] <digitalfiz> any of you guys read that?
# [00:49] <jo-erlend> yes.
# [00:49] <digitalfiz> funny eh
# [00:49] <jo-erlend> not terribly, I think.
# [00:49] <digitalfiz> think it funny google called them out
# [00:50] <jo-erlend> well.. Google probably isn't the right firm to complain about other companies snatching data from other websites and presenting them to their own customers as their own data.
# [00:51] <jo-erlend> I can see why it's provoking to them though.
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# [00:54] <grantg> So Bing is dogpile now?
# [00:54] <jo-erlend> I don't know what dogpile means.
# [00:55] <grantg> The search site
# [00:55] <grantg> Google it. ;D
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# [00:56] <grantg> http://dogpile.com/
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# [00:57] <grantg> A search engine that searches via other search engines. lol
# [00:57] <jo-erlend> as I understand it, Bings toolbar collects data about the users actions and uses that information in order to improve their search results. As a consequence, they gather information from Google among other services.
# [00:59] <jo-erlend> that may not be entirely accurate though. I haven't invested too much time investigating the issue.
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# [01:11] <marry> hi
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# [03:01] <tw2113> yay! yslow is in FF4beta now
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# [03:18] <grantg> paul_irish: I debugged why webkit audio wan't working for me.
# [03:18] <grantg> I got a WTF error message
# [03:18] <grantg> It says AudioContext is not defined
# [03:18] <grantg> Even when the api is enabled.
# [03:18] <grantg> :/
# [03:19] <grantg> It seems the AudioContext binding is missing.
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# [03:20] <grantg> hmm
# [03:20] <grantg> Unless it was changed?
# [03:20] <grantg> to webkitAudioContext?
# [03:20] <grantg> paul_irish: Is that the case?
# [03:20] <paul_irish> shrug
# [03:20] <paul_irish> it is possible!
# [03:20] <grantg> http://chromium.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/samples/audio/specification/changelog.html
# [03:20] <grantg> lol
# [03:21] <grantg> dd comment for AudioContext contstructor that the 'webkit' prefix is required in prototype WebKit implementation
# [03:21] <grantg> :/
# [03:21] <paul_irish> well that sounds about right
# [03:21] <paul_irish> specs always have unprefixed but implementations always start prefixed
# [03:22] <grantg> OMFG
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# [03:22] <grantg> It's alive
# [03:23] <tw2113> i think grantg just made his own night
# [03:24] <grantg> lol
# [03:24] <grantg> FML
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# [03:25] <grantg> WTF
# [03:25] <grantg> webkit audio is playing it at the wrong sample rate.
# [03:25] <grantg> grr
# [03:25] <grantg> it's f'ing slo-mo
# [03:26] <grantg> *slo-mo audio
# [03:26] <grantg> but it works. xD
# [03:26] <grantg> paul_irish: Step 1 completed.
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# [03:26] <grantg> you can try it
# [03:27] <grantg> I just flashed http://www.grantgalitz.org/gameboy/
# [03:27] <grantg> native audio in google chrome.
# [03:27] <grantg> It's alive!
# [03:28] <benv_> chriskjennings: can i borrow you for a sec
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# [03:29] <digitalfiz> http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/web/02/03/internet.addresses.gone/index.html?hpt=T2
# [03:29] <grantg> outputting raw audio samples directly from javascript to the computer's sound system now works in google chrome. :D
# [03:29] <digitalfiz> WE'RE ALL DOOMED!
# [03:29] <grantg> no more retarded data uri trick
# [03:29] <grantg> digitalfiz: Reminds me of the corporations still using IE6
# [03:29] <digitalfiz> lol
# [03:29] <grantg> like how they're still allocating IPv4
# [03:30] <grantg> WTF
# [03:30] <digitalfiz> im still on ipv4...
# [03:30] <grantg> webkit audio api JUST crashed. D:
# [03:30] <digitalfiz> lol
# [03:30] <grantg> the audio just cut out
# [03:31] <grantg> google chrome can't shut down properly now. arrrh!
# [03:31] <grantg> ->force quit
# [03:31] <grantg> :(
# [03:31] <tw2113> haha
# [03:31] <grantg> my emulator is a google chrome trap!
# [03:31] <grantg> don't do it!
# [03:31] <grantg> It's a trap!
# [03:33] <grantg> Admiral Akbar says it's a trap.
# [03:34] <tw2113> admiral akbar uses firefox
# [03:34] <grantg> tw2113: hater gonna hate
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# [03:34] <tw2113> :D
# [03:34] <tw2113> i use chrome at work still
# [03:35] <grantg> tw2113: At least you're not using IE6 at work still.
# [03:35] <grantg> I remember so many places still using IE6
# [03:35] <grantg> Even cruise ships use IE6 for their internet cafe lounge
# [03:36] <grantg> 10 dollar an hour for IE6? I DON'T THINK SO!
# [03:36] <grantg> RAEGE
# [03:36] <tw2113> only when i have to do basic testing on it
# [03:36] * grantg gives Royal Carribean the evil death stare
# [03:38] <tw2113> silly reddit users
# [03:38] <tw2113> "what I miss about tables...........vertical align"
# [03:38] * grantg hears stereo native audio in webkit audio and cries.
# [03:38] <grantg> F'ing finally
# [03:39] <grantg> Flash has finally been deprecated
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# [03:57] <paul_irish> grantg: \o\ \o/ /o/
# [03:58] <grantg> lololol
# [04:01] <Neiluj> found a new bug with selectivizr
# [04:01] <Neiluj> fixed
# [04:02] <Neiluj> keith should really check his git
# [04:02] <digitalfiz> paul_irish, what do we do about no more ipv4 addresses being left?
# [04:06] <paul_irish> digitalfiz: fuck if i know. i just want the internet to work when i wake up.
# [04:06] <digitalfiz> lol
# [04:08] <tw2113> investigate how ipv6 capable you are
# [04:14] <Neiluj> somebody for a simple regexp please ?
# [04:24] <Neiluj> please ?
# [04:24] <grantg> paul_irish: I'm working on the webkit audio fast path now
# [04:25] <grantg> for outputting these motherf**king audio samples.
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# [04:25] <grantg> the emulator is seriously a trap now for any google chrome users who have enabled webkit audio right now
# [04:25] <grantg> b/c I'm updating my array math right now.
# [04:25] <grantg> :/
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# [04:31] <paul_irish> grantg: hehe. if people have grabbed a chromium nightly AND enabled audio api.. well.. they should expect it. :)
# [04:31] <paul_irish> Neiluj: regex? whatcha need
# [04:32] <grantg> WTF is going on with the sample rate?
# [04:32] <grantg> I think webkit audio is screwing up the sample rate internally
# [04:32] <Neiluj> paul_irish: better way to do this http://pastie.org/1527145
# [04:33] <Neiluj> this can be done with 1 line right ? I'm just not good with regexp :(
# [04:33] <grantg> Like it's going exactly half the correct sample rate. :/
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# [04:36] <grantg> fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu
# [04:37] <grantg> web audio api: Y U NO STABLE?
# [04:38] <Neiluj> paul_irish: selectivizr is playing with <base> and if there's a slash after an hash it's going wrong on IE7... that's why I need it
# [04:39] <paul_irish> Neiluj: gotta love that ~ trick
# [04:39] <Neiluj> ;)
# [04:39] <Neiluj> learnt it from you actually, love it too
# [04:40] <grantg> paul_irish: web audio is a pre-alpha mess
# [04:40] <grantg> It shouldn't even have landed
# [04:40] <grantg> ugh
# [04:40] <paul_irish> hashPosition.replace(/#.*/,'') // Neiluj
# [04:41] <grantg> Too many bugs
# [04:41] <grantg> And ways to trigger chrome crashes
# [04:41] <paul_irish> grantg: it's behind a flag. that means experimental!
# [04:41] <grantg> still
# [04:41] <Neiluj> paul_irish: you mean baseURL.replace(/#.*/, '') :) awesome
# [04:41] <paul_irish> oh whoops. yeah.
# [04:41] <grantg> You'd expect some level of stability before it lands.
# [04:41] <paul_irish> it kills the hash and anything after it
# [04:41] <paul_irish> grantg: yah
# [04:41] <grantg> I repeat: *no freaking stability*
# [04:42] <grantg> D:
# [04:43] <grantg> web audio is playing back the samples at the wrong sample rate
# [04:43] <grantg> and it has random crashes
# [04:43] <grantg> and it cuts off the audio at random times for unexplained reasons other than an internal audio lib crash.
# [04:43] <grantg> total minefield you don't want to fuck with.
# [04:43] <Neiluj> paul_irish: thanks a lot dude
# [04:44] <grantg> not even to experiment with
# [04:44] <grantg> more of a minefield than minefield, the firefox nightly. :/
# [04:52] <grantg> Peter`: I have a possible workaround in mind to get around the JIT deoptimization bug.
# [04:52] <grantg> Where I create separate arrays and reference them with a different property
# [04:52] <grantg> like this.memoryReference = this.memoryWriterGBC
# [04:53] <grantg> and memoryReference can refer to a few different arrays
# [04:53] <grantg> So that there's not one array that gets modified and dirties up V8's logic for optimization.
# [04:54] <grantg> As long as using a reference variable doesn't have to much overhead of its own acting like a pointer.
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# [05:01] <paul_irish> good thinkin
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# [05:02] <grantg> So the solution is to make multiple static arrays
# [05:02] <grantg> and the switch the referencing when the time comes
# [05:03] <grantg> I just hope chrome doesn't deoptimize on the reference switching as well. :/
# [05:03] <grantg> It doesn't seem to
# [05:03] <grantg> Because I use the same technique for my LCD controller handling.
# [05:04] <grantg> Where I switch between referencing an array with one blank function and an array containing 154 scanline handling functions
# [05:04] <grantg> Doesn't seem to de-optimize there, so that's a good sign.
# [05:08] <grantg> abusing the fact that we can even have references and not just copies in javascript FTW
# [05:09] <grantg> to the rescue
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# [05:19] <grantg> woah
# [05:19] <grantg> did firefox nightly just get faster?
# [05:19] * grantg might be hallucinating, but there seems to be a 5% perf improvement
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# [05:32] <grantg> ooh
# [05:32] <grantg> there's a 3d pocket pool game I can load into my emulator. :D
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# [05:35] <Neiluj> I got a question : is HTML5's semantics draft ?
# [05:37] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, you'll have to elaborate.
# [05:38] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: is <article> a draft ? :) is <input type="range"> still a draft ?
# [05:38] <jo-erlend> hmm. Well. It's recommended for early adapters.
# [05:39] <Neiluj> actually, for the story, we're working for a big customer who loves what we're doing as front-end team, but their intranet will be made by another company with SharggggghhPoint
# [05:39] <jo-erlend> SharggggghhPoint?
# [05:39] <Neiluj> I came to this company today and they tell me : nah we can't do HTML5 with Sharepoint
# [05:40] <jo-erlend> oh. Well. I don't know much about sharepoint, but any webserver that can serve webstuff can serve html5.
# [05:40] <Neiluj> "it's not standard" :) "Sharepoint output content is XHTML natively"...
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# [05:40] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: That's what I think
# [05:40] <Neiluj> but Sharepoint is the exception :)
# [05:41] <jo-erlend> xhtml is dead. HTML5 is newly born. You choose.
# [05:41] * grantg wonders if anyone here wants to make an html5 game by programming towards my GBC emulator.
# [05:41] <miketaylr> xhtml5 works too :)
# [05:41] <grantg> jo-erlend: Say that to the content-type of my emulator
# [05:41] <Neiluj> well I did, but those m@ther fuckers made me rename all my <article> with <div class="article">
# [05:41] <grantg> application/xhtml+xml all the way.
# [05:41] <grantg> Awww yeeahhh
# [05:42] <Neiluj> same for <header> and <footer> they suck
# [05:42] <grantg> double rainbow with real xhtml for the gameboy color emulator.
# [05:42] <jo-erlend> I no longer see any use for xhtml, as once I did.
# [05:42] <grantg> jo-erland: I use stub functions to generate XML
# [05:43] <jo-erlend> xhtml is xml.
# [05:43] <grantg> I have it so my PHP generates XML for me
# [05:43] <grantg> I know
# [05:43] <grantg> And I output the XML as XHTML
# [05:43] <grantg> I don't deal with writing the markup
# [05:43] <grantg> my PHP does that *for* me
# [05:43] <grantg> That's why I do XHTML
# [05:44] <jo-erlend> that doesn't make sense.
# [05:44] <grantg> jo-erlend: Ease of editing a site
# [05:44] <jo-erlend> pardon?
# [05:44] <grantg> Instead of sifting through html syntax that could always have an error
# [05:44] <jo-erlend> xml can have errors too, unless its valid.
# [05:45] <grantg> jo-erlend: https://github.com/grantgalitz/GameBoy-Online/blob/master/index.php
# [05:45] <grantg> jo-erlend: My PHP code generates the XML for me, so I don't need to worry
# [05:45] <grantg> heh
# [05:45] <grantg> also
# [05:45] <Neiluj> oh my godness !
# [05:45] <Neiluj> grantg: tell me it's a joke :-)
# [05:46] <grantg> I have it where my XML is recompiled to HTML if the application/xhtml+xml accept type is not sent
# [05:46] <grantg> for browsers like IE8
# [05:46] <grantg> Neiluj: view https://github.com/grantgalitz/GameBoy-Online/blob/master/index.php
# [05:46] <grantg> :P
# [05:46] <jo-erlend> so what you're saying, is that you need your visitors browsers to display ugly errors because your PHP does the job for you?
# [05:46] <Neiluj> are you really typing this code ?? damn ! why the hell ?
# [05:47] <grantg> jo-erland: no ugly errors
# [05:47] <grantg> I have it where it recompiles to HTML for compatibility on the fly
# [05:47] <grantg> hehe
# [05:47] <jo-erlend> oi... That scripts... Looks bad.
# [05:47] <grantg> heh
# [05:48] <Neiluj> "bad" is nice, this is pure suicide
# [05:48] <jo-erlend> yes, I was trying to be nice.
# [05:48] <Neiluj> ;)
# [05:48] <grantg> Neiluj: And THAT index.php file requires https://github.com/grantgalitz/GameBoy-Online/blob/master/res/framework.php
# [05:48] <grantg> lol
# [05:49] <grantg> My proprietary website framework that I did for kicks.
# [05:49] <jo-erlend> "when I go to town, I just build a taxi, make a child, train it as a taxi driver and then ask him to drive me to town! It's cheap. It's easy. It makes sense".
# [05:49] <Neiluj> sniff sniff
# [05:49] <grantg> That framework.php script should be in its own github repo.
# [05:49] <grantg> lol
# [05:50] <Neiluj> sorry to say but even if you're right : your xhtml code must be valid without a doubt, this is pure self-hurting and totally not practical
# [05:50] <Neiluj> you're doing wrong, that's my opinion
# [05:50] <Neiluj> you can't even have autocompletion !
# [05:50] <grantg> Neiluj: Practical for me. :P
# [05:50] <Neiluj> and you're generating on the fly ? wtf ?
# [05:50] <jo-erlend> it's pure insanity.
# [05:50] <grantg> sanity for me
# [05:50] <Neiluj> why not doing templates like everybody, and have a validator test on output ?
# [05:51] <grantg> Neiluj: It's for my own sanity
# [05:51] <Neiluj> grantg: do you eat your poo poo this is insane for most of us
# [05:51] <grantg> heh
# [05:51] <Neiluj> ;)
# [05:51] <grantg> nom nom nom
# [05:51] <Neiluj> :D
# [05:51] <jo-erlend> grantg, seriously... That is quite insane.
# [05:52] <Neiluj> PHP should never know about UA
# [05:52] <grantg> Neiluj: heh, I know
# [05:52] <grantg> It's voodoo to do UA detection server side
# [05:52] <Neiluj> kind of :)
# [05:52] <grantg> But I actually use it for IE compat sometimes
# [05:52] <grantg> check my php file
# [05:52] <grantg> xD
# [05:52] <Neiluj> I am !
# [05:52] <grantg> I mean my CSS file
# [05:53] <grantg> lol
# [05:53] <grantg> https://github.com/grantgalitz/GameBoy-Online/blob/master/css/GameBoy.css.php
# [05:53] <jo-erlend> grantg, where is your xslt-file?
# [05:53] <Neiluj> I can do better than that with front code man
# [05:53] <grantg> The CSS file is a PHP file
# [05:53] <Neiluj> I'm not surprised anymore...
# [05:53] <grantg> jo-erlend: Me hatez xslt
# [05:53] <paul_irish> http://sketch-out.appspot.com/ is mad fun
# [05:54] <Neiluj> grantg: I came from PHP and as a PHP dev I can tell you, this is just crazy...
# [05:54] <grantg> hehe
# [05:54] <jo-erlend> grantg, it's quite obvious to me that you're using the wrong tools at the wrong time for the wrong reasons.
# [05:54] <grantg> For my own sanity
# [05:54] <grantg> I did copypasta with some of my previous code
# [05:54] <jo-erlend> I haven't used PHP in ten years, and I didn't spend five seconds reading the code before understanding how insane it was.
# [05:54] <Neiluj> grantg: ever looked at modernizr ? you can feature detect and apply style based on support
# [05:54] <grantg> Eh
# [05:55] <grantg> I like control at the server
# [05:55] <grantg> not the script level
# [05:55] <miketaylr> paul_irish: thats awesome
# [05:55] <grantg> I have my CSS file as a PHP file so I can test stuff for layout
# [05:55] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: believe me, I never saw such PHP code, and I saw really really bad one, this is the most beautiful ugly code I ever saw
# [05:55] <paul_irish> miketaylr: its via https://gaming.mozillalabs.com/games/winners
# [05:55] <Neiluj> it's well written but what it does is tottally wrong
# [05:56] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, I saw code like that when I was interested in mIRC scripting.
# [05:56] <grantg> heh
# [05:56] <miketaylr> \o/
# [05:56] <grantg> trolling the PHP devs who look at my code.
# [05:56] <grantg> ;D
# [05:56] <Neiluj> grantg: parano about browser have Javascript enabled or not or what ?
# [05:56] <jo-erlend> paul_irish, is it supposed to do anything other than display "LOADING"?
# [05:57] <Neiluj> yeah this is the biggest PHP troll eva !
# [05:57] <grantg> lol
# [05:57] <Neiluj> I have to FAIL this !
# [05:57] <grantg> lol
# [05:57] <Neiluj> "Fail safe for shitty browsers" :D
# [05:57] * Quits: ndimatteo (~ndimatteo@c-98-235-177-36.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: ndimatteo)
# [05:58] <grantg> oh
# [05:58] <Neiluj> body<?php echo($Adjacent_OP); ?> aaaaall the way...
# [05:58] <Neiluj> damn
# [05:58] <grantg> Don't look at this then: http://sourceforge.net/projects/beaconcache/
# [05:58] <grantg> lol
# [05:58] <grantg> Neiluj: lolz
# [05:58] <grantg> I know, I went crazy
# [05:58] <jo-erlend> I've never liked PHP much. I much prefer Python for serverside stuff. I'd prefer it for browserside stuff as well, if only it was supported.
# [05:58] <Neiluj> we had an idea this evening with my team
# [05:59] <Neiluj> we want to do something for fun, an HTML/CSS uglifier
# [05:59] <Neiluj> put some well written code in it
# [05:59] <Neiluj> and it will totally fucking it up, but keeping the style correct :)
# [05:59] * grantg should not have linked my gnutella/gnutella2 web cache
# [05:59] <grantg> oh noes
# [05:59] <miketaylr> haha this favimon game is funny
# [06:00] <Neiluj> like changing every classes by bad not-meaning words :) exploding style everywhere in the css
# [06:00] <paul_irish> haha is it? didnt open
# [06:00] * jo-erlend slams Neiluj around abit with a frozen salmon.
# [06:00] <Neiluj> grantg: you'll love it :D
# [06:00] <miketaylr> its like...fighting favicons pokemon style
# [06:00] <grantg> lol
# [06:00] <miketaylr> damn, flickr.com is wasting me
# [06:00] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: this is for the fun but we'll do it for sure, this is just so funny
# [06:00] * Quits: Killman (~killman@unaffiliated/killman) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
# [06:00] <Neiluj> 90% of the time we're doing front code for ourselves
# [06:01] <jo-erlend> yes, we don't have enough illwritten html on the web as it is...
# [06:01] <Neiluj> but in this project, we just hate those guys and think about some punishment :)
# [06:01] * grantg is surprised by gwebcache project from two years ago is still up
# [06:01] <Neiluj> replacing every classes by id="md5shit" :D
# [06:01] <Neiluj> or worst, one css property = one class = one md5 :D
# [06:02] <Neiluj> this is gonna be great :D
# [06:02] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, want it to be really cool and ugly? Write it from scratch in asm, with an SQL backend and all. When you release it in 2035, the web can probably handle it.
# [06:02] <Neiluj> totally unreadable
# [06:02] <grantg> lol
# [06:02] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: asm ?
# [06:02] <grantg> assembly
# [06:02] <Neiluj> tss :)
# [06:02] <grantg> ?
# [06:03] <Neiluj> no I'll use grantg's framework
# [06:03] <jo-erlend> grand. You want to obfuscate code, but you don't know what asm is... Fills me with hope.
# [06:03] <Neiluj> I didn't know about the abbreviation
# [06:03] <Neiluj> I'm french
# [06:03] * grantg is skimming the IRC lines
# [06:04] <grantg> When you say asm, I'm assuming assembly code for a CPU. :P
# [06:04] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, I've actually seen Fawlty Towers, and he was indeed from Barcelona, which is in Spain, if you were trying to imitate the stupid waiter.
# [06:04] <Neiluj> sorry jo-erlend I didn't understand what you meant :s
# [06:05] <jo-erlend> oh, nevermind me. It's my day off.
# [06:05] <Neiluj> it's 6AM here and worked all night, so pardon me
# [06:05] * grantg dares someone here to read through my beaconcacheII script
# [06:05] <grantg> the gwc.php file I wrote
# [06:05] <grantg> You can't
# [06:05] <Neiluj> grantg: I'm going to have an heart attack
# [06:05] <grantg> There's almost 10k lines of PHP in that one file. lD
# [06:06] <grantg> ;D
# [06:06] <jo-erlend> ok. Can we please stop talking about PHP and other offtopic stuffs?
# [06:06] * grantg wonders if shareaza and quazaa are still using my webcaches
# [06:07] <grantg> lol
# [06:07] <grantg> forgot about that shit
# [06:08] <jo-erlend> I wish this channel could be dedicated to writing good markup. Because that's much more difficult than it seems.
# [06:09] <grantg> Neiluj: Look through gwc.php and notice there are two methods of storing the URLs and IP addresses that I cache.
# [06:09] <grantg> mysql and flat file
# [06:09] <grantg> lolz
# [06:10] <grantg> too much
# [06:10] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: that's why I'm angry against Sharepoint, it forced me to write bad markup, div div div div...
# [06:10] <jo-erlend> http://pastebin.com/uv1wWuh8 <-- that, for instance.. Semantically, it seems to me that the anchor should be part of the article, but on the other hand, I want the entire article to be clickable. I'm not really sure how to markup the teaser as a link. Is it a link, or is it a small article?
# [06:10] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: don't put an <a> wrapping <article>
# [06:10] <jo-erlend> other tips are welcome, of course.
# [06:10] <Neiluj> inverse it
# [06:10] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, why?
# [06:12] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: found this bug with FF3 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=626911
# [06:13] <jo-erlend> yes, I'm not interested in older browsers. By the time I've refreshed my webskills, they'll all be compatible anyway. :)
# [06:13] <grantg> oh shiz, gnutella2 is almost half bootstrapped by my script now. WTF?
# [06:13] <Neiluj> this is actually HTML5 correct but FF3 is breaking the DOM if you're doing it, that is sad
# [06:13] <grantg> and old limewire is still updating?
# [06:13] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: FF3 is the latest non-beta FF...
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# [06:13] <jo-erlend> I believe I was actually the one to discover that bug.
# [06:13] <Neiluj> when I mean FF3 I mean 3.6..
# [06:14] <jo-erlend> yes, and I don't care about it. I don't care about oldIEs either.
# [06:14] <grantg> Neiluj: Here's a running one - http://gwc.dyndns.info:28960/gwc.php?display=gnutella2
# [06:14] <grantg> lol
# [06:14] <Neiluj> grantg: stop I'm gonna puke seriously
# [06:14] <grantg> heh
# [06:15] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: you're doing code for yourselves, not for customers, for sure...
# [06:15] <grantg> http://gwc.frodoslair.net/beacon/gwc.php really? It uses my script.
# [06:15] <grantg> :P
# [06:15] <jo-erlend> oh, that's really beautiful markup.
# [06:15] <Neiluj> grantg: browsers won't never cache anything, this is stupid
# [06:16] <grantg> Neiluj: No, it's not for browsers
# [06:16] <grantg> It's for P2P programs
# [06:16] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, right. I like exploring languages, even though I never actually use them for much in real life. :)
# [06:16] <Neiluj> and I'm not saying anything about <table><table>...
# [06:16] <grantg> It's a bootstrap
# [06:16] <grantg> That I did hella long ago
# [06:16] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: as a pro, I can't say "no I won't give a shit about IE8", I just need to give him less beauty
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# [06:17] <grantg> 74534153 hits just for the frodoslair webcache? WTF?
# [06:17] <jo-erlend> I quit web development for the same reasons I quit IRC development... Noone complies with the protocols and standards and nobody cares.
# [06:17] <grantg> damn, the entire shareaza p2p community must be bootstrapping to it
# [06:18] <Neiluj> grantg: glad to not using it...
# [06:18] * Quits: HAITI (~j@unaffiliated/haiti) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
# [06:18] <grantg> lol, old limewire is still updating to it! http://gwc.frodoslair.net/beacon/gwc.php?display=gnutella
# [06:18] <grantg> lol * infinity
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# [06:18] <grantg> and BearShare. LOL
# [06:18] <monteslu> jo-erlend, web development is still fun because people that like ironing out differences can work on the abstraction layers like dojo and jquery
# [06:19] <monteslu> the rest of us can build stuff with it :)
# [06:19] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: about <a><article> even if it's HTML5 valid, are you not feeling bad to put a block content inside an pseudo-inline one ?
# [06:19] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, I understand that. But even if you were aspiring to be a professional, I think that if you were to begin now, you might as well just disregard the older browsers and study the correct approach from the beginning. There will be some exceptions, sure, but it's better to learn how to do it properly before you start conforming to other peoples errors.
# [06:19] <jo-erlend> monteslu, oh, I so love factories and toolkits and abstraction layers.
# [06:20] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, inline and block are presentational aspects, aren't they?
# [06:20] <monteslu> I love not worrying about the difference in things like mouse event handling and timing
# [06:20] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: the problem was already there when I started years ago ;) and this is something we like without admitting somewhere...
# [06:20] <grantg> Glad to see my blocking algorithms to block media defender worked super-well. (throw confetti into the air)
# [06:20] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, "the problem"?
# [06:20] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: in my mind, not only
# [06:21] <Neiluj> I mean it's like putting a <div> inside a <p>, this is not semantically its place
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# [06:21] <Neiluj> the problem : deal with non-respecting vendors
# [06:21] <jo-erlend> there is nothing semantic about putting a div inside a p, since a div doesn't have any meaning.
# [06:22] <Neiluj> ok.. let's say...
# [06:22] <Neiluj> a <p> in a <span> ? :)
# [06:22] <jo-erlend> yes, that's a radical difference.
# [06:23] <jo-erlend> a span also doesn't mean anything.
# [06:23] <Neiluj> don't know how to say it better but... this is not just about presentation, this is about the nature of the content
# [06:23] <grantg> lol: http://gwc.frodoslair.net/beacon/gwc.php?client=RAZA&version=2.5.3.0&net=gnutella2&get=1&ping=1
# [06:23] <Neiluj> maybe I'm too old and <a> will always be something that could contain a bit of text and nothing else
# [06:24] <Neiluj> and actually, I didn't found the bug by coincidenc, I wanted to put this <article> inside a <a> because it was really practical
# [06:24] <jo-erlend> I don't believe so. There are cases when it makes sense to assume that some data will always be presented in a certain way, just as a fallback to make the content more easily accessible to human readers... Stuff like, if you don't have a stylesheet, then a h1 will be presented with big letters and it will clear before and after.
# [06:25] <Neiluj> but inversing made the job too so, that's why I'm asking
# [06:25] <antonkovalyov> todays meetup was total fail
# [06:25] <Neiluj> antonkovalyov: me too o/ \o
# [06:25] <antonkovalyov> organizer did not show up and didn't tell the venue about the meetup
# [06:25] <Neiluj> we wait 6hours before talking to someone...
# [06:26] <Neiluj> with 2x1h of train to going to them..
# [06:26] <Neiluj> this was a fail day
# [06:26] <antonkovalyov> wait, you are not from sf aren't you?
# [06:26] <jo-erlend> I tend to use divs as I will use sections in the future. That is to say; they are containers for containers and nothing else. "inlines" are just that. They contain data that needs to be emphasized in some way, but without any form of "encapsulation".
# [06:26] <antonkovalyov> i thought you are from france
# [06:26] <Neiluj> antonkovalyov: no I'm not
# [06:27] <Neiluj> but my meeting was also fail :)
# [06:27] <Neiluj> indeed, france
# [06:27] <antonkovalyov> so what're you saying is... today is the day of failed meetings
# [06:27] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: so what are <a> ?
# [06:27] <antonkovalyov> and i believe you
# [06:28] <Neiluj> antonkovalyov: exactly !
# [06:28] <jo-erlend> but semantically; if I have a teaser and I want it to be clickable.. Is it a link that contains an article, or is it an article that contains a link?
# [06:28] <paul_irish> WARNING These experimental features may change, break, or disappear at any time. We make absolutely no guarantees about what may happen if you turn one of these experiments on, and your browser may even spontaneously combust. Jokes aside, your browser may delete all your data, or your security and privacy could be compromised in unexpected ways. Please proceed with caution.
# [06:28] <paul_irish> antonkovalyov: that sucks :(
# [06:28] <grantg> paul_irish: I think they still set the bar too low
# [06:28] <Neiluj> I didn't know anybody there, I came for almost nothing, 1 day lost
# [06:28] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, an a-tag? It's a way to provide a link to other content..
# [06:28] <grantg> for stability
# [06:29] <grantg> or even workability
# [06:29] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, visually, it should be considered inline unless it contains a block element.
# [06:29] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, i know right; i am gonna ask the guy if he needs help
# [06:29] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: problem is, browsers are not "switching" it's appearance considering what's inside
# [06:29] <Neiluj> I must say, that was my conclusion...
# [06:29] <Neiluj> we have to tell "by hand" to display block...
# [06:29] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, and i could not get on oakjs >:(
# [06:30] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, HTML doesn't have an appearance. It's data. Not presentation.
# [06:30] <Neiluj> yeah yeah.. but think about your link
# [06:30] <Neiluj> it's not only data, it's UI man
# [06:30] <grantg> heh
# [06:30] <jo-erlend> no. UI is done using javascript and css.
# [06:30] <Neiluj> so if your link is not correctly viewed, it won't work
# [06:31] * grantg abused fstreamopen so long ago
# [06:31] <jo-erlend> it does work.
# [06:31] <Neiluj> css is UA css at first
# [06:31] <Neiluj> I'm saying UA css should take care about what's inside <a>
# [06:32] <jo-erlend> I refuse to say that the sun revolves around the earth just to uphold old misconceptions.
# [06:32] <Neiluj> if you made some test with <a><article><h1> without styling anything, you'd see it's very confusing..
# [06:32] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, I don't consider that. It doesn't make sense to me.
# [06:32] <Neiluj> if I wanted to handle only data, I would use XML
# [06:33] <jo-erlend> wow... You really are stuck in the nineties, aren't you?
# [06:33] <Neiluj> :)
# [06:33] <Neiluj> I'm the HTML's grantg :)
# [06:33] <jo-erlend> do you use tables for design and css for background colours too?
# [06:33] <grantg> wut
# [06:33] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: don't get to fast ;)
# [06:34] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: you're an extrem-purist, which I respect
# [06:34] * grantg wonders how many people got trolled when they tried to set up the GBC emulator on their server
# [06:34] <Neiluj> I'm also a purist but with earth-to-earth consideration
# [06:34] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, you tell me to use the a-tag as the outer element because it'll look good in "the default stylesheet"?
# [06:34] <grantg> To find out they need XMLWriter for PHP
# [06:34] <grantg> lolz
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# [06:35] <grantg> and DOMDoucment
# [06:35] <grantg> DOMDocument
# [06:36] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: wait, maybe I mis-said, what I'm telling you is just <blocktag> inside <a> hurtED me at first sight, I did want to use it and was perplex about how it renders by default, because it's doesn't fit to its block children
# [06:37] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: that's where you ask yourself "so what, I'm going to tell for every one of them to force display block ? or I'm just going to put it inside block contents"
# [06:37] <jo-erlend> I dislike the notion of blocks and inlines in the context of HTML. It's ok that they have a recommended default stylesheet, but that shouldn't affect the markup.
# [06:38] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: who really cares ?
# [06:38] <Neiluj> blinds ?
# [06:38] <Neiluj> I'm trying to troll here ;)
# [06:38] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, I think that "how it renders by default" is in itself a misconception. Nothing renders by itself. Browsers have stylesheets and as far as I know, there is no standards for them.
# [06:40] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: I know, my consideration is about how to work fast and smart, if browsers aren't smart enough, why should I lost my time when a simple workaround could fix it ? you said it : <a> have no meaning except doing a link, so why putting here instead of there ? :)
# [06:41] <jo-erlend> The Web Platform is about to mature. HTML is for data. CSS is for styling and javascript is for business logic and advanced look&feel.
# [06:41] <jo-erlend> oh, ok...
# [06:41] <Neiluj> and if it has no meaning, why not giving href attributes to any meaning tags? :)
# [06:41] <jo-erlend> I dislike that notion.
# [06:41] <Neiluj> well, it won't hurt your data right ?
# [06:42] <jo-erlend> you seem to be saying that well thought of words are a waste of time, because you can achieve the same effect by showing your finger.
# [06:42] <Neiluj> <a> is meaningless, remove it
# [06:42] <Neiluj> you don't want to, why ? because it's a link, it's UI, not in the graphical sens, in the litteral sense : user can interact with it
# [06:43] <jo-erlend> no.
# [06:43] <Neiluj> :)
# [06:43] <jo-erlend> it's a collection of pieces of data. When presented to a user, I want that piece of data to be presented as one clickable entity, which I do in CSS.
# [06:44] <jo-erlend> the question is whether the link belongs to the article or the article belongs to the link.
# [06:44] * grantg is thinking about trolling shareaza by shutting it down for a few days
# [06:44] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: you have a big change of not being corrupted by real day to day web dev constraints ;) I'm serious, and jalous
# [06:44] <grantg> By poisoning its bootstraps for a bit
# [06:44] * grantg knows the backdoor. :D
# [06:45] <grantg> nah
# [06:45] <grantg> The RIAA would notice the flaw. :P
# [06:46] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, in all contexts, I strongly believe in mastering the language before you start to change it.
# [06:47] <jo-erlend> but this is why I think a channel for HTML is a good idea. To discuss markup. Not PHP, CSS, JavaScript or other technologies and languages. Marking up data is difficult. Does my life belong to me, or do I belong to my life? Mark that up, please. I don't care about fonts or background colours. :)
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# [06:49] <Neiluj> you didn't answer my question : if <a> have no meaning, it's not you nor your life, so why are you choosing one place instead of an other ?
# [06:50] <Neiluj> I, really, don't see how can you find a reason, I mean a real semantical reason to put it there or there... there's not
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# [06:51] <Neiluj> I hate saying that because it can be misunderstood but I'm doing this work since almost 10 (damn 10 yet !?) years now and the only thing I learnt is I'm learning everyday, it's impossible to say "I master this language", except Crockford
# [06:52] <Neiluj> you know the best practices, but look : they're changing
# [06:52] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, the a-tag has a meaning.
# [06:54] <jo-erlend> but let me expand upon the previous example, just to illustrate how silly the notion of inline and block is in releation to HTML; is my life an inline or a block? Am I a block or an inline?
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# [06:55] <jo-erlend> the answer, of course, is that it depends on who's looking. That's CSS's job, not HTML.
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# [06:57] <Neiluj> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element#Block_elements
# [06:57] <Neiluj> http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block.html
# [06:57] <jo-erlend> CSS and JavaScript are no longer optional elements in a webpage. They're part of a greater whole. HTML is for describing data. There are no blocks or inlines.
# [06:57] <Neiluj> this is not talking about CSS
# [06:58] <Neiluj> HTML tags are block-level or inline
# [06:58] <Neiluj> some can't contain the others
# [06:58] <Neiluj> that's a rule
# [06:58] <Neiluj> it is still a rule but <a> is the exception now, well not now becaus HTML5 is a draft :)
# [06:58] <Neiluj> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/HTML/Block-level_elements
# [06:59] <Neiluj> " Inherent in this structural distinction is the idea that block elements create "larger" structures than inline elements."
# [06:59] * grantg completely phased out of this conversation
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# [06:59] * grantg is instead doing better things, like surfing reddit
# [06:59] <grantg> http://imgur.com/C6wme
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# [07:00] <jo-erlend> grantg, I'm a musician. When I phase something out, I want it to go from loud to silent. You seem to have an opposite view.
# [07:00] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, "larger structures"?
# [07:01] <Neiluj> larger data structures ?
# [07:01] <grantg> What I should I have done
# [07:01] <Neiluj> that's a real question
# [07:01] * grantg is now known as grantg|reddit
# [07:01] <grantg|reddit> lolz
# [07:01] * grantg|reddit is now known as grantg|on-reddit
# [07:01] <grantg|on-reddit> better
# [07:01] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, it really doesn't mean anything. You can create just as large structures using inline elements as you can using block elements.
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# [07:02] <Neiluj> other said : block-level is like a document, and inlines are infos inside this document
# [07:02] <Neiluj> there should be a third case, the no-level :)
# [07:03] <Neiluj> my comparison is really wrong I know, but that's the idea right ?
# [07:03] <jo-erlend> no, you're wrong. It's perfectly fine to have an inline document. Python would be written like that, but other languages, which are separated by characters instead of linebreaks, will not have that distinction. The latter is more common than the former.
# [07:05] <jo-erlend> I see only one reason to keep entertaining the notion of block and inline elements; HTML has lived a life and has some baggage which cannot be ignored.
# [07:06] <jo-erlend> from the page you referred to, at mozilla: «By default, block-level elements begin on new lines.» <-- that's obviously presentational.
# [07:06] <Neiluj> indeed, Mozilla guys are such assholes :D
# [07:07] <Neiluj> by baggage you mean rules ?
# [07:07] <jo-erlend> I don't agree with that. I believe that those who write dictionaries must explain how the words are used in practice, not how they wish that they were used.
# [07:08] <Neiluj> assholes because they're not proving what I want to without talking about presentation :)
# [07:08] <jo-erlend> the correct way to change a language, in my opinion, is to use it properly and to tell people why it's preferable to use it properly. That way, dictionaries -- or in this case, browsers -- will eventually be able to use the words properly themselves.
# [07:09] <jo-erlend> writing the HTML5 spec will be the easy part. The difficult part, is to make people understand the difference.
# [07:10] <Neiluj> I really need to sleep and I would love to continue this conversation but my conclusion is just : ok to put <div> inside <a>, but this was forbidden for a reason, this will not later, what about the others ? Why just <a> ?
# [07:10] <jo-erlend> very good question.
# [07:10] <Neiluj> the "no block inside inline" was easy to understand for people
# [07:10] <Neiluj> what should we understand now ?
# [07:11] <jo-erlend> no, it really isn't easy to understand.
# [07:11] <Neiluj> forget what we learnt ? no, you can't fuck with the dom, there are still some rules
# [07:12] <jo-erlend> why should the word "and" be allowed when discussing philosophy, but not when discussing ... something else? They're words. Tags describe data. Some grammar is ok, but it has to make sense. The problem is that HTML is supposed to be evolving, which excludes a revolution.
# [07:12] <Neiluj> btw, if you can explain me the good and bad usage of <section> and <article> I would love to... this other confusing things, and I tried, I read the specs and it didn't talk to me a lot...
# [07:12] <jo-erlend> in my opinion, that's a shame. I think we would be ready for a slight revolution on the web. After all, the web is still in early alpha.
# [07:13] <jo-erlend> Neiluj, that's easy. I've done that on this channel.
# [07:13] <Neiluj> jo-erlend: backlog? :) :)
# [07:15] <Neiluj> I read somewhere that <article> is for embedding "external" data, I don't understand what "external" really mean...
# [07:16] <jo-erlend> my? It'll be faster to just explain it. A section is a vague separation of content. For instance, I'd say that the library is a section of a building, which contains sections containing different kinds of books. The sections will also have sections, called bookshelves, which will have sections known as shelves. Each shelf will have multiple articles, known as books. Each book will have multiple articles called chapters.
# [07:16] <jo-erlend> in other words: div > section > article. The latter is the most specialized.
# [07:17] <Neiluj> I also saw that article > section was possible ? :-/
# [07:17] <Neiluj> I indeed read here that article is a specialized section... it was probably you :D
# [07:17] <jo-erlend> sure. That's semantics... Which is the difficult part.
# [07:18] <Neiluj> there's something as difficult as semantics
# [07:18] <Neiluj> good naming...
# [07:19] <Neiluj> I mean naming id & classes :D
# [07:20] <jo-erlend> sure, and you have microdata and similar stuff. Markup is difficult. That's a very good reason to separate all notions of presentation from the modelling of data.
# [07:21] <jo-erlend> I see no semantic value in the separation between inline and block elements. None. I'll be happy to change my mind if someone can convince me, but I haven't seen any yet.
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# [07:22] <Neiluj> you probably think now that I'm not making the distinction about data and presentation but I can search hours for naming without a presentation meaning, this is - really - hard... semantics have not a lot of possibilities, everybody has its own usage
# [07:23] <jo-erlend> humans are expert expert systems.
# [07:23] <jo-erlend> computers are lousy.
# [07:25] <Neiluj> ;)
# [07:27] <jo-erlend> in my country, there is a growing linguistic bad-habit which is growing rapidly. People are confusing "not necessarily" with "necessarily not". Seems harmless, but the meaning really is significantly different.
# [07:28] <jo-erlend> if _people_ are confused, then there is no hope for computers. None.
# [07:28] <paul_irish> antonkovalyov: http://i.picasion.com/pic38/7a5942c556b37a0a4d770d77594376fe.gif
# [07:29] <antonkovalyov> awesome
# [07:29] <paul_irish> waiting this long to get a M was so worth it
# [07:29] <paul_irish> it feels like home in this t-shirt
# [07:30] * jo-erlend finally killed his facebook account a couple of days ago.
# [07:31] <paul_irish> smart move
# [07:32] <antonkovalyov> i dont see a problem with my fb account
# [07:32] <jo-erlend> Facebook has been a good prototype. Now, let's make the real thing. Open source, open standards, federated and preferably restful.
# [07:32] <antonkovalyov> that's how i remember about birthdays :D
# [07:32] <antonkovalyov> jo-erlend, you forgot ... the one that nobody uses.
# [07:33] <jo-erlend> pardon?
# [07:33] <jo-erlend> statusnet?
# [07:33] <paul_irish> lol statusnet.
# [07:33] <antonkovalyov> what is that
# [07:33] <paul_irish> a good friend of mine is a committer on statusnet.
# [07:33] <paul_irish> it's the open source twitter.
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# [07:33] <antonkovalyov> see
# [07:33] <paul_irish> it's pretty cool. i have some of my code in it :)
# [07:33] <antonkovalyov> i know exactly 0 people who use that
# [07:33] <paul_irish> it's good if you wanna do a yammer but dont wanna pay yammer
# [07:34] <antonkovalyov> oh i see
# [07:34] <paul_irish> and its also good if you're a GPL neckbeard and hates everything non-Free
# [07:34] <jo-erlend> yes, we should all switch to Internet Explorer, because back in the days, that would have been preferable if we wanted to avoid a long evolution of the web.
# [07:35] <jo-erlend> it isn't internet until you have one working FLOSS implementation.
# [07:35] <antonkovalyov> jo-erlend, only if you like to jump between extremes like a teenage person
# [07:37] <paul_irish> actually i really love having the GPL FLOSS people around... doing their thing
# [07:37] <antonkovalyov> webkit, chrome, v8 are very well centralized even if oss; just sayin'
# [07:37] <paul_irish> i just hate arguing with them
# [07:37] <jo-erlend> yes, teenagers change the world.
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# [07:38] <jo-erlend> I don't mind proprietary software at all. I just think that nothing is science until you have peer review. Which is only possible with free software. Once its proven, feel free to do it any way you like without disclosing your source code.
# [07:38] <paul_irish> i like that POV
# [07:38] <paul_irish> jo-erlend: you in europe?? i forget.
# [07:39] <jo-erlend> Norway.
# [07:39] <paul_irish> cool.
# [07:39] <antonkovalyov> facebook is not science and never meant to be
# [07:39] <jo-erlend> paul_irish, it is, kinda. Snowing outside.
# [07:39] <paul_irish> i was in oslo in september. my BFF is going to oslo in a few days
# [07:39] <paul_irish> and i was in bergen! i loved bergen. much better than oslo
# [07:39] <jo-erlend> Facebook is a prototype, that wasn't meant to be. It has shown us what is possible, but the solution to the problem that it accidentally discovered, is wrong.
# [07:40] <jo-erlend> paul_irish, grand. I live in the bullseye of Oslo. :)
# [07:41] <antonkovalyov> see i can see your science POV but i don't buy the prototype thing. facebook is a business. would it be better to have many little facebooks talking to each other? sure but most of them have to be businesses for ecosystem to survive.
# [07:42] <jo-erlend> like the web, you mean?
# [07:42] <jo-erlend> the concept of a webbed and a non-webbed internet, scares me.
# [07:43] <antonkovalyov> exactly; and the web wasn't a big pompous project to create federated open source free system for communication. the creation was chaotic fueled by people building businesses
# [07:44] <jo-erlend> we have no idea what we want. We don't. We do have an opportunity to learn, however. Facebook tells us what people want the internet to do. I don't believe it's wise to hand it over to a single company.
# [07:45] <paul_irish> jo-erlend: you go to the Framsia meetup?
# [07:45] <jo-erlend> antonkovalyov, you know... I play pool. Sometimes, I call a shot and miss, but by strange circumstances, it still works out. I can be honest about it, or I can use my pokerface and present a lie. Let's be honest... Web works and it was lucky.
# [07:45] <jo-erlend> paul_irish, I don't know what that is.
# [07:46] <paul_irish> ?g meetup framsia oslo
# [07:46] <bot-t> paul_irish, framsia (Oslo) - Meetup - http://www.meetup.com/framsia/
# [07:46] <paul_irish> frontend devs. oslo. you'll dig it
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# [07:47] <jo-erlend> I'm not really able to see software as frontends and backends. I'm a micro-manager. :)
# [07:47] <paul_irish> that's cool too
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# [07:49] <jo-erlend> I believe that the internet is part of nature, and that it needs to be explored freely by philosophers, just like the ancients did. I don't explore it in order to accomplish any particular goals.
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# [07:53] <jo-erlend> I believe that the web is going to become a vast network of ideas, whereas todays web is a network of pages.
# [07:55] <antonkovalyov> ya and i believe in anarcho-capitalism. doesn't mean it is happening anytime soon :)
# [07:56] <paul_irish> anton is also learning how to ride a bike properly
# [07:56] <antonkovalyov> fuuuuuuu
# [07:56] <paul_irish> doesn't mean that is happening anytime soon :)
# [07:56] <Neiluj> :D
# [07:56] <antonkovalyov> ;D
# [07:56] <antonkovalyov> dude, i am gonna learn now and we can race
# [07:57] <antonkovalyov> i am competitive :)
# [07:57] <paul_irish> i'm ready. give me a chrome bike and i'll ZOOOOOOOOOOOOM
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# [07:58] <paul_irish> psst we have these all over. this is right in front of my building http://www.flickr.com/photos/slolane/5215174387/
# [07:58] <antonkovalyov> it's on
# [07:58] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, yeah i saw one of these that day
# [07:58] <antonkovalyov> before i almost got killed
# [07:58] <paul_irish> ha
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# [08:00] <jo-erlend> yes. but then soon is also a very relative term.
# [08:02] <jo-erlend> I think Facebook and Twitter will be the cause of their own demise. Once someone creates a good product from those prototypes, people will discuss them on those networks, and they will choose to use the product rather than the prototype.
# [08:09] <jo-erlend> we need to unstack the stacked deck. The web is in its infancy and if we want to move forward, then we need to stop this manic focus on backwards compatibility.
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# [08:10] <antonkovalyov> you know, i am probably much closer to your POV than you think but idiom "put your money where your mouth is" is one of my favorites
# [08:11] <antonkovalyov> in other words, "show me the code" (i think it was Torvalds)
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# [08:14] <paul_irish> antonkovalyov: homegirl is doing wireframing right now and was inspired by my tshirt to figure out how to do comments in her setup and then started looking around and found this http://mockupstogo.net/disqus-comments-system
# [08:15] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, ya we saw it the other day; pretty cool
# [08:15] <paul_irish> ya cool bro
# [08:15] <paul_irish> antonkovalyov: whats your plan for jshint hosting
# [08:15] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, i have my server
# [08:17] <antonkovalyov> oh here we go: http://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/25/132
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# [08:17] <antonkovalyov> "Talk is cheap. Show me the code.
# [08:17] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, i want to finish it up this weekend
# [08:17] <jo-erlend> antonkovalyov, sure, the code is what counts, once people agree on what they want. I believe that XMPP is a vast part of it.
# [08:18] <antonkovalyov> but i need yours and nimbupani's feedback
# [08:18] <antonkovalyov> jo-erlend, no need to agree; implement and iterate
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# [08:50] <jo-erlend> yes, most of the time, that's the best idea. The thought of revolution is usually quite frightening. It is sometimes necessary though.
# [08:51] <jo-erlend> I think this would've been a good time to get ridd of the old presentational aspects of HTML, but I certainly understand the reason why they're still valid.
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# [08:54] <jo-erlend> Evolution gives us plenty of cool stuff to play with. The downside, is that we have superfluous organs and teeth, etc. Leftovers. We should remove them, because the evolution of thought is not bound by the same rules that the evolution of life is.
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# [09:58] <jomn> which is the best code editor for web app development?
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# [10:04] <xonecas> Anyone awake?
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# [10:42] <marry> hi
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# [11:27] <Bacta> Guys, how does the <input type="file"> tag work? Does the file selection get embedded into the DOM?
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# [13:40] <Evet> google's svgweb doesn't work on google's android?
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# [14:09] <monteslu> Evet, nope. Not svg on android
# [14:10] <monteslu> I've been complaining about this for over two years now and no one would listen :)
# [14:10] <monteslu> dojox.gfx with a canvas renderrer has been my workaround
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# [14:15] <Evet> monteslu: what do you think about canvg?
# [14:16] <Evet> http://code.google.com/p/canvg/
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# [14:26] <monteslu> Evet, haven't used it, but looks interesting
# [14:26] <monteslu> The reason I like dojox.gfx is becuase it has several different rendering paths with the same api
# [14:26] <monteslu> canvas, VML, svg, silverlight, flash
# [14:27] <monteslu> and you can set the order you want it to test for them
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# [15:04] <Evet> monteslu: have you tested dojox.gfx in mobile browsers?
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# [15:08] <monteslu> Evet, yup. Works fine
# [15:08] <monteslu> defaults to svg on iOS and canvas on android
# [15:09] <monteslu> not sure about non-webkit based stuff though
# [15:11] <monteslu> A nice thing about SVG and VML is you can attach events to shapes inside of the rendering area such as mouseover an onclick
# [15:12] <monteslu> with canvas, you'll get it to render fine, but you'll need to work out any events inside of the canvas yourself
# [15:12] <monteslu> dojox.gfx helps in that it keeps the scenegraph instead of just a raster in canvas, but still not quite as nice as SVG
# [15:13] <monteslu> I mean canvas is not as nice as svg, dojox.gfx is great :)
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# [15:46] <betz> Greetings! I'm looking for a way to markup the username of the author of an article. Does that exist? I know address, but that looks more for contact information. I just have the username
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# [15:47] <Evet> monteslu: take a look at this, http://www.amplesdk.com/examples/markup/xhtml/canvas/
# [15:49] <tw2113> betz, check out hcard microformats, it may offer some more
# [15:49] <tw2113> but may not be the best fit
# [15:50] <tw2113> actually, it may be
# [15:50] <tw2113> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
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# [16:29] <tw2113> anyone with javascript knowhow around? i got a dumb question but i'm new
# [16:29] <tw2113> with js at least :D
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# [16:43] <Pewpewarrows> tw2113: yeah what's up
# [16:44] <tw2113> how do you display array contents? (document.writeln(array[0])) ?
# [16:44] <tw2113> for an example
# [16:44] <tw2113> and should i be seeing the value stored when i hit view source? or what I see above
# [16:44] <tw2113> i wanna say what i see above, unless i'm doing inspect element
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# [16:44] <Dorward> tw2113: Source shows the source, not a serilization of the current DOM. So, no, you shouldn't.
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# [16:45] <Pewpewarrows> tw2113: display as in show to the browser? or log to the console?
# [16:45] <tw2113> display as in the value gets used
# [16:45] <Dorward> tw2113: document.write should usually be avoided in favour of DOM methods. http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/creating-and-modifying-html/
# [16:45] <tw2113> i'm trying to spit out latitude and longitude for google maps
# [16:46] <Pewpewarrows> and yeah, view source takes a snapshot of the source, it doesn't execute any javascript
# [16:46] <Pewpewarrows> so you'd see what the browser sees before it runs a single line of js
# [16:46] <Dorward> tw2113: If you're using Google Maps data, it presumably is coming in after the inital document load, so document.write is even less of a good idea.
# [16:46] <tw2113> the joys of being dropped in the somewhat deep end of the pool :D
# [16:46] <Pewpewarrows> inspecting the DOM however shows you a live representation, after js has run
# [16:48] <tw2113> hmm
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# [16:49] <tw2113> grr *goes back to work on trying to get this to work*
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# [16:51] <tw2113> thanks you two
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# [16:54] <cheilmann> OK arrived at FOSDEM
# [16:54] <cheilmann> in 10 minutes taxi ride I already got told that all I code is shit and really silly :)
# [16:55] <tw2113> the guy was probably a newb who touched javascript for the first time like me lately :D
# [16:56] <tw2113> which browser has the better javascript tools? chrome or firefox?
# [16:56] <tw2113> or is that subjective?
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# [16:57] <Dorward> tw2113: They are much of a muchness (at least once you install Firebug). I think Chrome has a slight edge (but I tend to use Firefox as Chrome has proven to have periods of not loading random files for me)
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# [16:59] <cheilmann> nono, these are all kernel linux hackers
# [16:59] <cheilmann> this will be a long two days
# [17:00] * tw2113 fires up firefox3.6 for the sake of firebug
# [17:00] <tw2113> mmm linux
# [17:00] <Dorward> tw2113: If that's because Firebug won't run on the betas of 4, you can get a beta version of Firebug that does.
# [17:00] <tw2113> :O
# [17:01] <tw2113> aha, found it
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# [17:05] <grantg> paul_irish: I just finished my fast path for webkit
# [17:05] <grantg> audio
# [17:05] <grantg> webkit audio still crashes after a little
# [17:05] <grantg> Not my fault. :/
# [17:06] <grantg> Also what's trashing it still is that webkit audio calls the callback at the wrong rate.
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# [17:10] <tw2113> woohoo, have my multiple markers working
# [17:17] <grantg> Will file the bug report on this since I can confirm it
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# [17:23] <grantg> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=71951
# [17:24] <grantg> filed
# [17:24] <grantg> paul_irish: crogers needs to see bug http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=71951
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# [17:32] <Pewpewarrows> ugh, the new Chrome stable's resources and network tabs love to crash my compiz on linux every time I open them :/
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# [17:33] <JonathanNeal> hiya
# [17:33] <tw2113> lols compiz
# [17:38] <grantg> heh
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# [18:08] <paulrouget> paul_irish: piiiing?
# [18:08] <paul_irish> hey bro
# [18:08] <paulrouget> hi
# [18:08] <paulrouget> tell me
# [18:08] <paulrouget> what the best way to know if WebGL is available?
# [18:09] <paul_irish> i'm glad you asked.
# [18:09] <paulrouget> paul_irish: I'm looking at https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/blob/master/modernizr.js#L300
# [18:09] <paulrouget> buuuut
# [18:09] <paulrouget> this is not reliable actually
# [18:09] <paulrouget> I think you have to request for the context
# [18:09] <paul_irish> why do you say that
# [18:09] <paul_irish> so.. that's what i used to do
# [18:10] <paulrouget> Here: Firefox 4, no WebGL because the Graphic Card is not compatible.
# [18:10] <paulrouget> but window.WebGLRenderingContext exists
# [18:10] <paul_irish> :(
# [18:10] <paulrouget> exactly: :(
# [18:10] <paul_irish> So in the older version of Modernizr i spun up the experimental-webgl context
# [18:10] <paulrouget> paul_irish: do you know if Chrome has the same behavior?
# [18:11] <paulrouget> ok
# [18:11] <paul_irish> but I was recently told by the chrome gpu team that that was costly and slow
# [18:11] <paulrouget> It is, because you create a GL context
# [18:12] <paul_irish> yeah exactly
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# [18:12] <paul_irish> and the global was reliable to be there since it's in the conformance tests
# [18:12] <paulrouget> maybe Firefox should remove WebGLRenderingContext if no WebGL capability.
# [18:12] <paulrouget> I'll investigate.
# [18:13] <paul_irish> but i suppose we can see false positives too because i doubt the browser is asking the GPU before grabbing the gl context
# [18:13] <paul_irish> yeah i think that would be best.
# [18:13] <paul_irish> i'll confirm that's what chrome does
# [18:13] <paulrouget> ok
# [18:13] <paulrouget> thank you.
# [18:13] <paul_irish> paulrouget: also you can see it in use here https://cvs.khronos.org/svn/repos/registry/trunk/public/webgl/sdk/demos/common/webgl-utils.js
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# [18:17] <paulrouget> paul_irish:
# [18:17] <paulrouget> 18:12 < bjacob> paul: it's not reliable at all
# [18:17] <paulrouget> 18:12 < paul> ok :)
# [18:17] <paulrouget> 18:12 < bjacob> paul: that only tells you if the browser has at least a stub of a WebGL implementation
# [18:17] <paul_irish> hm
# [18:18] <paul_irish> paulrouget: this is what i had before https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/commit/9c0ca3340671a
# [18:18] <paul_irish> webgl-utils also has a nice loop create3DContext() for grabbing it
# [18:20] <Evet> should i use window size as reference to mobile browsers?
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# [18:21] <paulrouget> paul_irish: so basically, we can't know if we don't request for a GL context, so we have to actually test it for real (your first version)
# [18:22] <paul_irish> paulrouget: that's what it looks like yeah.. if the global is unreliable.. i dont know another way to inquire the GPU more forcefully without spinning up a context
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# [18:35] <mokush> paul_irish: in html5 boilerplate, you link the css with "css/style.css?v=1". does the parameter actualy work?
# [18:36] <paul_irish> turn it up to 11 and see what happens.
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# [18:37] <mikesusz> cache buster?
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# [18:38] <mokush> what should happen?
# [18:40] <paul_irish> i'm jk
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# [18:40] <paul_irish> i use it as a cache buster because boilerplate ships with an htaccess with a default expires header for css/js
# [18:41] <mokush> paul_irish: oh, tought so. thanks!
# [18:41] <paul_irish> the build script actually revs your filenames for you. and does it without a query string, which is preferred
# [18:41] <mikesusz> cache busting is a great thing, especially when your clients don't understand shift-reload
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# [18:44] <mokush> '10 things I learned from the html5 boilerplate build script'
# [18:45] <paul_irish> you make it!
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# [18:49] <symb> i learned a lot
# [18:50] <tw2113> paul_irish, what's one of your favorite european cities?
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# [18:51] <paul_irish> olomouc!
# [18:53] <tw2113> thank you
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# [19:50] <mokush> any of you guys used css3 pie?
# [19:55] <skyler_brungardt> Tried
# [19:55] <skyler_brungardt> With Drupal
# [19:55] <skyler_brungardt> Couldn't afford the time to really get it working
# [19:55] <skyler_brungardt> Probably give it another go in a week or so
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# [19:57] <mokush> skyler_brungardt: anything better?
# [19:58] <skyler_brungardt> mokush: Depends on your project, I think
# [19:58] <skyler_brungardt> If you need graceful degradation, I recommend using images instead of rounded corners and shadows and such
# [19:58] <skyler_brungardt> Just be careful about divitis
# [19:59] <skyler_brungardt> Otherwise just let the better browsers support the nice graphics, and let IE be blocky
# [19:59] <skyler_brungardt> Provided the functionality still works well
# [19:59] <Pewpewarrows> mokush: I use css3pie now
# [20:00] <skyler_brungardt> Namely, Progressive Enhancement > Graceful Degradation
# [20:00] <skyler_brungardt> Pewpewarrows: With a CMS, or no?
# [20:00] <Pewpewarrows> no
# [20:00] <mokush> Pewpewarrows: have you used the behaviour on the body?
# [20:00] <Pewpewarrows> mokush: nope, just inner elements
# [20:00] <Pewpewarrows> idk, if it's one too many things I notice a tad bit of slowdown in IE
# [20:00] <Pewpewarrows> on even
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# [20:01] <skyler_brungardt> Yeah, CSS3 is certainly still a little immature
# [20:01] <skyler_brungardt> I wouldn't use it for a high-traffic site
# [20:02] <skyler_brungardt> Well, CSS3PIE anyway
# [20:02] <mokush> I don't think it's actualy pie's fault, it's because ie is slow even with it's own vml
# [20:02] <skyler_brungardt> Yup
# [20:02] <skyler_brungardt> Until IE9 hits mainstream
# [20:03] <Neiluj> mokush: I'll probably give it a try tonight, I need some shadows for IE...
# [20:03] <skyler_brungardt> Neiluj: Love to hear about your experience
# [20:03] <Neiluj> the only problem, I think I'll have to patch to make it change Modernizr's no-boxshadow
# [20:04] <Neiluj> because I'm giving border alternatives
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# [20:05] <mokush> Neiluj: I'm getting pretty good results, it's just the tricky/untested areas that are a bit off
# [20:05] <Neiluj> mokush: can you tell me more (and with simple words, I'm french :D )
# [20:06] <Neiluj> what tricky areas ?
# [20:06] <mokush> Neiluj: I'm romanian, so we're pretty close.
# [20:06] <Neiluj> ;)
# [20:07] <mokush> Neiluj: I wanted multiple abckgrounds on the body. but it couldn't figure out the real height and width, until I set 100% on both the body and html.
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# [20:07] <Neiluj> I'm currently doing a "delivery" to my customer so busy but reading
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# [20:09] <mokush> all-in-all seems pretty solid, if you really must deliver these features to ie.
# [20:10] <Neiluj> interesting storyboard http://2011.beercamp.com/
# [20:10] <Neiluj> mokush: what about perf ?
# [20:10] <skyler_brungardt> Interesting font
# [20:10] <Neiluj> skyler_brungardt: scroll
# [20:10] <mokush> Neiluj: you don't use "perf" and "IE" in the same sentance
# [20:11] <Neiluj> mokush: what about anti-perf ? :D
# [20:11] <skyler_brungardt> Aww sweet!!!
# [20:12] <mokush> Neiluj: plenty of it :D, but just tell your clients their IE is busted
# [20:12] <Neiluj> this customer I have is a really big company, you probably don't know them, Vallourec, they're leading the metal tube market
# [20:12] <Neiluj> we're doing the frond code of their intranet
# [20:13] <Neiluj> so they got guys inside factories with IE7 and not fast computers, I think I'll give css3pie only for IE8 just to in case...
# [20:13] <paul_irish> mokush: alrra is romanian toooo
# [20:13] <paul_irish> and i wes *just* asking him if there was a lot of web devs
# [20:13] <Neiluj> mokush: big company employees don't have the choice of their browsers :)
# [20:14] <BrianBlakely> Working at a big company used to be a privilege
# [20:14] <Neiluj> BrianBlakely: yeah "used"
# [20:14] <mokush> paul_irish: well, in recent years there's more and more of us. that's why the big boys started coming here.
# [20:14] <BrianBlakely> Now it's the best and most direct route to an unfulfilling career… present company excluded >_>
# [20:14] <Neiluj> off-topic : does W3C validator have an API ? or another HTML5 validator ?
# [20:15] <BrianBlakely> Neiluj: I've never even heard of such a thing
# [20:15] <paul_irish> Neiluj: no but you can run the validator on your own. its opensource
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# [20:16] <mokush> paul_irish: romanian devs are the ones competing with the indians on rentacoder, and the rest of the sale-labour market.
# [20:16] <paul_irish> Neiluj: when mike5w3c is back here ask him.. he's one of the validator leads
# [20:16] <paul_irish> mokush: ah
# [20:16] <Neiluj> paul_irish: oh ! great :)
# [20:17] <Neiluj> this chan is full of famous web actors :)
# [20:17] <tw2113> the web all-stars?
# [20:17] <Neiluj> famous and accessible, yeah the web all-stars :)
# [20:17] <tw2113> then why the heck am i here? :D
# [20:18] <Neiluj> tw2113: you're the mascot :D
# [20:18] <tw2113> won't be the first time I'm a mascot for something :D
# [20:20] <Neiluj> hehe
# [20:20] <alrra> mokush: are you from Targu Mures ?
# [20:21] <tw2113> this is my new picture then: http://www.marietta.edu/~biol/biomes/images/deciduous/newt_7401.jpg
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# [20:22] <tw2113> a newt
# [20:23] <mokush> tw2113: speaking of mascots, check the bee after 1:35 http://www.youtube.com/user/nqtv?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/0/ml7ZhupDLok
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# [20:25] <tw2113> good soundtrack for that one
# [20:26] <mokush> tw2113: hell yeah! the best!
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# [20:28] <tw2113> changed my twitter avatar to that image :D
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# [20:33] <mokush> tw2113: the original was cuter, yours is a bit spooky
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# [20:34] <tw2113> that happens sometimes
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# [20:40] <mokush> damn, we ran out of ipv4
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# [20:41] <tw2113> dreamhost posted yesterday that they enabled v6 for domains, so i went in and added it to all of mine
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# [21:13] <antonkovalyov> ?tell nimbupani ping me when you are around
# [21:13] <bot-t> antonkovalyov, Okay.
# [21:13] <tw2113> i can help too if you want
# [21:13] <tw2113> :D
# [21:14] <antonkovalyov> tw2113, okay. ping me when nimbupani is around. :D
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# [21:14] <tw2113> *salutes* sir, yes sir
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# [21:17] <Neiluj> antonkovalyov, Okay.
# [21:18] <antonkovalyov> what is it now, a channel of bots :)
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# [21:22] <BrianBlakely> …and they have a plan
# [21:22] <acies> to take over the world!
# [21:24] <tw2113> robots are dangerous
# [21:24] <tw2113> and people keep wanting them to take over mundane things
# [21:24] <tw2113> pretty sure they'd take over way more than that when given the chance
# [21:25] <tw2113> see: every movie that involves robots handling "decision making"
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# [21:50] <Neiluj> acies, Okay.
# [21:57] <mokush> bot-t is harmless, sort of like Teddy from AI
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# [22:25] <mokush> any polyfill for display: table?
# [22:31] <BrianBlakely> mokush: inline-block?
# [22:31] <BrianBlakely> It's… kind of similar
# [22:31] <snover> pretty sure an inline-block is nothing like a table :)
# [22:32] <mokush> BrianBlakely: good-old-equal-height problem, so inline-block doesn't cut it
# [22:32] <BrianBlakely> Ahhh
# [22:32] <BrianBlakely> Flexbox with a JS polyfill
# [22:32] <BrianBlakely> That's my typical implementation
# [22:32] <BrianBlakely> ?g github flexie
# [22:32] <bot-t> BrianBlakely, doctyper/flexie - GitHub - https://github.com/doctyper/flexie
# [22:33] <BrianBlakely> That guy will interpret flexbox rules, or you could roll your own simple equal height script
# [22:33] <BrianBlakely> I have been doing the latter
# [22:34] <mokush> BrianBlakely: yeah I tried flexie a couple of weeks ago, and it didn't work out well(drove me nuts)
# [22:34] <BrianBlakely> mokush: I haven't used it m'self
# [22:35] <BrianBlakely> As I said, I've just been rolling a small script, a few lines
# [22:35] <BrianBlakely> For IE/Opera
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# [22:41] <mokush> BrianBlakely: think that's what amma gonna do myself.
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# [22:50] <BrianBlakely> Cool :)
# [22:52] <Neiluj> mokush: I tried flexie but no more than 1 level
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# [22:53] <Neiluj> and in case of you don't know it : it needs the "native" property name, you can't just use -webkit-box-flex it needs "box-flex"
# [22:54] <mokush> Neiluj: I know, that's not the problem. the problem was that it broke the rest of the layout.
# [22:54] <Neiluj> mokush: used float ?
# [22:54] <mokush> it's probably usefull in simple layouts, but I had a complex web app layout.
# [22:54] <Neiluj> mokush: mockup somewhere ?
# [22:55] <mokush> no, but I can tell you it needed both hbox and vbox.
# [22:55] <Neiluj> shouldn't be a problem
# [22:56] <Neiluj> but I had some too, especially with FF...
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# [23:02] <masondesu> man, #html5 is bumpin' this afternoon.
# [23:02] <masondesu> ?g bumpin
# [23:02] <bot-t> masondesu, Bumpin Social Media - http://www.bumpin.com/
# [23:02] <masondesu> hah
# [23:03] <tw2113> *does some cheers, since he's the mascot*
# [23:04] <techrush> i despise those "social media toolbars"
# [23:04] <techrush> they are like the slightly more modern version of those browser toolbar plugins that used to get installed with everything
# [23:04] <masondesu> cheer: give me a H, give me a T, give me a M, give me a L, give me a 5 - what does it spell? HTML.
# [23:05] <tw2113> why should i? you just did already
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# [23:06] <masondesu> lol
# [23:07] <tw2113> what do you think? should i really consider catering to the lowest IE denomenator and use PIE.htc?
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# [23:08] <tw2113> or should I just let IE users suffer with square corners and no shadows
# [23:09] <masondesu> I really like css3pie, but paul_irish has commented on it making things a bit slower. I guess it just depends? WIll no drop shadows and rounded corners really hurt the design?
# [23:09] <tw2113> not in my opinion
# [23:10] <tw2113> and i keep saying to let IE users suffer anyway
# [23:10] <tw2113> and i haven't been asked to put it in yet :D
# [23:11] <masondesu> I mean... the thing that I like about it is that it's not just catering to IE6 grandmas... it's for 6,7 and 8
# [23:11] <masondesu> http://gs.statcounter.com/
# [23:13] <tw2113> i could do a .ie7 something, .ie8 something { pie.htc } setup
# [23:13] <tw2113> just ignore IE6
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# [23:13] <masondesu> as of Jan 2011, IE is still 46 of the world's browsers (ugh)
# [23:13] <tw2113> but until i'm told to use it, i will ignore it
# [23:13] <tw2113> i think opera needs more
# [23:13] <tw2113> Firefox is steady and chrome is rocketing
# [23:13] <tw2113> safari is meh
# [23:14] <masondesu> So weird to me that Safari is sooo low
# [23:14] <tw2113> i think even the mac users don't like it
# [23:15] <Neiluj> tw2113: I like it but I know he's not perfect
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# [23:15] <tw2113> he's?
# [23:15] <Neiluj> it's
# [23:15] <tw2113> ah
# [23:17] <masondesu> tw2113, maybe you could use paulirish.com/2008/conditional-stylesheets-vs-css-hacks-answer-neither/ to add pie.htc only for IE7 & 8, but I'm sure that would really be accomplishing much...
# [23:17] <masondesu> *whoops forgot the http:// on that
# [23:18] <tw2113> i already have that in place, without even clicking
# [23:18] <tw2113> thus the .ie7/.ie8 part :D
# [23:18] <masondesu> oh ha sorry missed that message. der.
# [23:18] <blokefrompoland> masondesu: people who uses IE6 probably don't care about rounded corners.
# [23:18] <tw2113> all good
# [23:19] <tw2113> people who use ie6 probably don't know what one is?
# [23:19] <masondesu> seriously. How old is IE6 now anyway? 11 years old?
# [23:20] <tw2113> 2001
# [23:20] <masondesu> I hope css3pie comes out with rounded corners for Mosaic browsers
# [23:20] <acies> past blaster. officially, is href short for hyper reference, hyperlink reference, or hypertext reference, or something else? didn't find it on w3c
# [23:20] <tw2113> i remember when I saw XP for the first time
# [23:20] <blokefrompoland> css3pie slows everything.
# [23:20] <tw2113> i was all like "holy poo! look at that colored interface!"
# [23:21] <tw2113> but at the same time, i liked windows ME
# [23:21] <tw2113> so what do i know
# [23:21] <masondesu> blokefrompoland: by everything you mean IE 6,7,8 right? Not others browsers?
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# [23:22] <blokefrompoland> masondesu: yep. Installed IE6 = slow PC.
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# [23:24] <blokefrompoland> masondesu: if you are testing css3pie on i7 with 6GB of RAM - it's OK, but imagine this on 800MHz with 256RAM ;)
# [23:24] <tw2113> not worth it
# [23:25] <masondesu> sounds like an IE face-melt
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# [23:25] <masondesu> and i don't mean that in a *positive* way
# [23:25] <masondesu> :)
# [23:25] <tw2113> cause you know, face melting is usually considered good
# [23:26] <masondesu> ok that was a bad phrase to use
# [23:26] <tw2113> :D
# [23:26] <tw2113> damn it, it's friday, i'm totally distracted this afternoon
# [23:27] <masondesu> it would be an IE face-solidify
# [23:27] <blokefrompoland> This is something that I don't understand - why people trying to make the website look 'pretty' in browsers like IE6...
# [23:27] <masondesu> [:)
# [23:28] <tw2113> which is why i'm slapping myself for bringing up the topic
# [23:28] <masondesu> Zeldman attributes it to creative directors who treat the web like a giant print ad. I tend to agree
# [23:29] <masondesu> I'm not saying that css3pie is evil. It's a great tool. Just not across the board.
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# [23:33] <masondesu> Utlimately, I think blokefrompoland is right: the likelihood on anyone caring about rounded corners when they're using a 10 year old browser is slim. That number of users who do care does go up, I would guess, in IE7 & 8. Oh well.
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# [23:36] <mokush> you guys know any ready-to-deploy browser upgrade notice?
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# [23:37] <Pewpewarrows> mokush: there's a few good ones
# [23:38] <Pewpewarrows> relevant to the previous discussion about making things look good in ie6: http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/
# [23:39] <Pewpewarrows> mokush: a really dirty one is http://ie6update.com/
# [23:39] <Pewpewarrows> makes it look like an IE info bar
# [23:39] <blokefrompoland> mokush: I'd use conditional comments.  blahblah
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# [23:40] <mokush> Pewpewarrows: I know ie6update, but I'm not trying to trick users. Just a notice and some links maybe
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# [23:41] <Pewpewarrows> mokush: http://www.ie6nomore.com/ is simple enough
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# [23:43] <blokefrompoland> It reminds me of 'best viewed in 800x600' ;>
# [23:48] <paul_irish> Pewpewarrows: http://www.ie6nomore.com/code-samples.html love the outdatedness of the page
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# [23:48] <paul_irish> You're using an outdated outdated notice.
# [23:48] <Pewpewarrows> paul_irish: year after I copy/pasted from my bookmarks I took a look
# [23:48] <paul_irish> haha
# [23:49] <Pewpewarrows> realized it's directing people to ancient chrome versions and such
# [23:49] <Pewpewarrows> jesus
# [23:50] <blokefrompoland> FF 3.5 ;>
# [23:50] <masondesu> paul_irish, wasn't there some thing you and some other dudes made that gave really big instructions on how to turn on JavaScript / upgrade your browser or something?? Did I dream that?
# [23:51] <mokush> I'm just going to write my own script.
# [23:52] <mokush> any ideea where I could find some official browser logos?
# [23:52] <masondesu> http://paulirish.com/2010/high-res-browser-icons/
# [23:52] <Pewpewarrows> ^
# [23:53] <dgathright> time for ie6nomorenomore.com. It's time we replace our outdated outdated notifications for updated outdated notifications.
# [23:53] <masondesu> lol
# [23:53] <masondesu> the irony
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# [23:53] <Pewpewarrows> masondesu: http://www.enable-javascript.com/
# [23:54] <masondesu> yes that was it!
# [23:55] <jpin> anybody using chromium?
# [23:56] <mokush> masondesu: thanks!
# [23:56] <paul_irish> jpin: yup
# [23:56] <jpin> paul_irish: direct chromium or google chrome?
# [23:56] <masondesu> jpin: Im using chromium
# [23:57] <jpin> masondesu: nice... been thinking about that, using google chrome for awhile now
# [23:58] <masondesu> its cool... lets do some neat stuff like check out rotating 3D tea kettles in WebGL
# [23:58] <masondesu> and sometimes jelly fish, too
# [23:58] <masondesu> ha... I bet you're ready to make the switch now, aren't you!?
# [23:59] <masondesu> *let's YOU do....
# [23:59] <masondesu> wasn't suggesting that we look at jelly fish together
# [23:59] <paul_irish> jpin: there isnt really a reason to switch to chromium from chrome
# [23:59] <paul_irish> in fact. there are good reasons not to.
# [23:59] <jpin> paul_irish: tell me
# [23:59] <paul_irish> chromium never updates
# Session Close: Sat Feb 05 00:00:00 2011

The end :)