/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-02-09 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Feb 09 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [01:01] <paul_irish> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Feb/0078
# [01:02] <key> paul_irish: http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua
# [01:02] <key> critique please
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# [01:08] <paul_irish> maybe my subtle powers of saying "no one wants to help a jerk" actually worked.
# [01:10] <andrewjbaker> V. subtle.^^
# [01:10] <paul_irish> oh i actually told him that in PM.
# [01:10] <paul_irish> after ignoring him all day.
# [01:10] <paul_irish> combo attack.
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# [01:11] <andrewjbaker> LOL.
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# [01:15] <niftylettuce> anyone here use sass or haml? the #haml and #sass channels are dead... I'm having permission errors when I try to run "sass-convert" or "compass"... just switched to Debian and did a "sudo gem install compass" likewise for haml... and when I run "sass-convert" and "compass" as my default user it does not recognize these commands (prob b/c I don't have gems folder added to my path?)
# [01:17] <niftylettuce> anyone here use sass or haml? the #haml and #sass channels are dead... I'm having permission errors when I try to run "sass-convert" or "compass"... just switched to Debian and did a "sudo gem install compass" likewise for haml... and when I run "sass-convert" and "compass" as my default user it does not recognize these commands (prob b/c I don't have gems folder added to my path?)
# [01:17] <niftylettuce> woops
# [01:17] <niftylettuce> ah I got it with export PATH=$PATH:/var/lib/gems/1.8/bin, read chriseppstein's stack overflow post @ http://stackoverflow.com/questions/909673/gems-and-ubuntu-9-04
# [01:18] <chriseppstein> niftylettuce: That's not me
# [01:18] <niftylettuce> chriseppstein: ??
# [01:18] <niftylettuce> oh
# [01:18] <niftylettuce> I guess its not safe to assume all chris' are eppstein's
# [01:19] <chriseppstein> relatively safe to assume the other direction
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# [01:45] <andrewjbaker> Anyone know of a modern browser supports using fillText() w/ Web fonts?
# [01:47] <paul_irish> i think they all do
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# [01:47] <paul_irish> you just gotta wait until the font has loaded before you use it
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# [01:47] <paul_irish> in FF window.load is an indicator
# [01:48] <paul_irish> in webkit that is not reliable
# [01:48] <grantg> paul_irish: I suspect my bug report still hold true: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=71951#c21
# [01:48] <paul_irish> looks like it
# [01:49] <grantg> and Google Chrome seems to garbage collect the web audio api, causing it to stop outputting audio after x seconds
# [01:49] <paul_irish> ouch
# [01:49] <grantg> Which is why it works properly in safari and not chrome
# [01:49] <andrewjbaker> paul_irish, Ah... OK. Maybe that's what's been causing my problems. Will jQuery's ready() get around that?
# [01:49] <paul_irish> no
# [01:50] <andrewjbaker> Gah.
# [01:50] <grantg> andrewjbaker: Eww, jquery
# [01:50] <grantg> :P
# [01:50] <paul_irish> http://code.google.com/apis/webfonts/docs/webfont_loader.html#Events active : function(){ ..
# [01:50] <grantg> jquery is the reason websites take so long to load now.
# [01:51] <andrewjbaker> paul_irish, thx.
# [01:51] <grantg> 50 jquery plugins + jquery = one hell of a wait time for a website
# [01:51] <grantg> and only like 10% of that stuff is even used to do something simple.
# [01:52] <grantg> while the other 90% is laziness on the web dev to remove unneeded code.
# [01:52] <paul_irish> also not everyone knows (and enjoys) all the DOM apis
# [01:52] <andrewjbaker> grantg, expediency dude, on the part of the dev. vs. not meeting deadlines... ;-)
# [01:53] <grantg> I swear I'll shoot the next web dev that has like 30 js includes for buggy and near-useless jquery plugins
# [01:53] * andrewjbaker doesn't consider himself shot... just yet.^^
# [01:53] <grantg> :/
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# [01:54] <grantg> I avoid it as I see jquery encompasses too much
# [01:55] <grantg> I don't want a super-js lib
# [01:55] <andrewjbaker> JS gets cached, right? So... ;-)
# [01:55] <paul_irish> jquery specifically isn't that, grantg
# [01:55] <grantg> too large in my books. :P
# [01:55] <paul_irish> what would you remove
# [01:55] <grantg> I only want to exact funcs needed for DOM manipulation.
# [01:56] <grantg> I'd have it where I include only the parts I'd really use
# [01:56] <grantg> not the whole DOM wrapping
# [01:56] <grantg> w/ CSS engine shit
# [01:56] <paul_irish> yeah i'd be fine with a sizzle-less jquery, too.
# [01:57] <paul_irish> SlexAxton was actually going to do something with modularjquery.com that he got a bit ago.
# [01:57] <grantg> paul_irish: Make different subsets of JQuery and that'd be better. ;)
# [01:57] <paul_irish> but it turns out that the core of the library isnt written in a way that facilitates a conditional build very well.
# [01:57] <grantg> for things like basic dom, etc.
# [01:57] <andrewjbaker> Hmm... even better... couldn't we get JS altered to natively support the CSS selector shizzle? OK, I'll shut up now.
# [01:57] <paul_irish> andrewjbaker: it does, bro.
# [01:58] <andrewjbaker> paul_irish, o.O
# [01:58] <paul_irish> ?mdc queryselectorall
# [01:58] <bot-t> paul_irish, document.querySelectorAll - Returns a list of the elements within the document (using depth-first pre-order traversal of the document's nodes) that match the specified group of selectors. The object returned is a NodeList . https://developer.mozilla.org/En/DOM/Document.querySelectorAll
# [01:58] <grantg> andrewjbaker: A lot of code is compat
# [01:58] <grantg> with retarded IE6
# [01:58] <paul_irish> and retarded ie7
# [01:58] <grantg> and sometimes ie8
# [01:58] <realityking> that's certainly one advantage of Mootools - everything is modularized. And it even has a nice builder :)
# [01:58] <paul_irish> killing off ie6 support doesnt reduce the size much.. killing off ie7 too and you can dump most of sizzle
# [01:59] <grantg> paul_irish: I avoid this compat bs by using straight dom 1 walkers.
# [01:59] <grantg> with easy testing
# [02:00] <paul_irish> you would really like et.js
# [02:00] <grantg> heh
# [02:00] <paul_irish> .tweet-recent miketaylr
# [02:00] <grantg> paul_irish: recursive dom1 walkers I mean. ;)
# [02:01] <paul_irish> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/23-ElementTraversal.html
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# [02:05] <andrewjbaker> paul_irish, how would: $('#go_east').css('color', '#000'); look written natively?
# [02:05] <paul_irish> document.getElementById('go_east').style.color = '#000';
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# [02:05] <paul_irish> whoops
# [02:05] <paul_irish> i mean
# [02:06] <paul_irish> document.querySelectorAll('go_east')[0].style.color = '#000';
# [02:06] <paul_irish> cuz lets use the hotness.
# [02:06] <andrewjbaker> LOL. Erm... still quite verbose then, in comparison.
# [02:07] <paul_irish> yes for sure.
# [02:08] <andrewjbaker> I wonder how much of a tradeoff there might be in reality when comparing JS that makes use of jQuery and JS that uses native functionality. Maybe using jQuery would ultimately reduce the downloadable footprint of custom JS heavy Web sites.
# [02:11] <andrewjbaker> If the trend is to move towards incorporating more and more JS, then ultimately using a library could potentially reduce the quantity of code that's downloaded per page.
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# [02:13] <techrush> if the library is custom tailored to that site yes
# [02:13] <techrush> but a general purpose library probably not
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# [02:16] <andrewjbaker> OK, emphasis on *probably*. But surely the potential still exists.
# [02:17] * andrewjbaker enjoys being re-educated about optimisation of JS and Web dev. vs. compiled dev.
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# [04:09] <tw2113> so quite *drops a pin*
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# [04:10] <paul_irish> ;)
# [04:10] <tw2113> at least you didn't yell at me to keep it down in here, and that i'm causing a racket :D
# [04:11] <key> ok guys, input please: http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua
# [04:11] <JSG> It's less lonely in here than #xhtml-strict
# [04:11] <key> i added another version of my html data structuring
# [04:11] <key> JSG: lol
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# [04:12] <tw2113> is the document div meant to be a container?
# [04:12] <key> yes
# [04:12] <key> to fix the width of the web page, and center it
# [04:12] <tw2113> cool, just checking
# [04:12] <key> etc
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# [04:12] <tw2113> you could likely get rid of the menu ID
# [04:12] <miketaylr> any reason to not just use <body> for that?
# [04:13] <tw2113> miketaylr i use containers like that too
# [04:13] <miketaylr> it's cool
# [04:13] <tw2113> unless you mean body { width: 960px; margin: 0 auto; }
# [04:13] <tw2113> :)
# [04:13] <key> miketaylr: i'm torn on how to approach it to, whether to use div or body. thoughts?
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# [04:13] <tw2113> the div won't hurt you at all
# [04:13] <key> tw2113: yea, wouldn't that be how you'd use body for that?
# [04:14] <miketaylr> i typically just use body, but one extra div might come in handy depending on how you style the actual page
# [04:14] <tw2113> i can't say i touch the body too much other than sitewide font stuff and backgrounds
# [04:14] <tw2113> you're not playing with fire enough until you start styling the html ta
# [04:14] <key> miketaylr: see that's a good point, my idea was to use body to style the entire window, then div document to style the actual web page bg, speaking in terms of content
# [04:15] <tw2113> tag*
# [04:15] <paul_irish> https://twitter.com/#!/aleksandarrodic/status/35017032273633280
# [04:15] <socialhapy> http://bit.ly/fWNHKc @aleksandarrodic: 4 projectors, server-side simulation, synchronous WebGL rendering with webSockets. http://imgur.com/hKd5K #webgl #scad #websocket #chrome
# [04:15] <miketaylr> needs moar buzzwords
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# [04:16] <tw2113> it lacks the term bacon
# [04:16] <miketaylr> paul_irish: these cr48 form factors are slick
# [04:16] <paul_irish> you just got a cr48?
# [04:16] <miketaylr> kristin got one today
# [04:16] <paul_irish> hot damn
# [04:16] <miketaylr> i did two approaches:
# [04:16] <key> damn
# [04:16] <miketaylr> 1) me, I'm a dev! 2) her, I'm a mom!
# [04:17] <miketaylr> she won.
# [04:17] <key> https://twitter.com/aleksandarrodic/status/35017032273633280
# [04:17] <socialhapy> http://bit.ly/fWNHKc @aleksandarrodic: 4 projectors, server-side simulation, synchronous WebGL rendering with webSockets. http://imgur.com/hKd5K #webgl #scad #websocket #chrome
# [04:17] <key> damn
# [04:17] <key> impressive
# [04:17] <key> don't know what it means by serverside simulation
# [04:17] <key> and synchronous webgl rendering with web sockets
# [04:17] <tw2113> let your mind run wild with that key
# [04:17] <key> please explain
# [04:17] <tw2113> serverside simulation
# [04:17] <tw2113> mmmmmmm
# [04:17] <paul_irish> he's running part of the jellyfish inside node.js
# [04:18] <tw2113> it's over my head too, no worries
# [04:18] <tw2113> brb
# [04:18] <key> oh so server runs some simulation, then converts to webgl and distributes to clients?
# [04:18] <paul_irish> server is probably doing physics, movement, some other heavy lifting.. goes up via websockets to multiple clients
# [04:18] <paul_irish> webgl up there.. massive shaders..... synchronized multiple browsers
# [04:19] <key> paul_irish: please chime in on this div vs body styling question
# [04:19] <key> nice
# [04:19] <key> man that looks fun
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# [04:19] <paul_irish> i'd much rather discuss webgl problems than semantic ones.
# [04:19] <key> ok, what's cr48 form factor?
# [04:19] <paul_irish> the design of the hardware
# [04:19] <key> what hardware?
# [04:20] <miketaylr> google chromeos notebook
# [04:20] <paul_irish> ?g cr48 @ key
# [04:20] <bot-t> key, Cr48 - Pilot-Program - Chrome OS - http://www.google.com/chromeos/pilot-program-cr48.html
# [04:20] <key> ohh, that
# [04:20] <key> i thought about getting one
# [04:20] <key> how you guys liking it?
# [04:21] <miketaylr> seems cool, but i only played with it for like 15 mins
# [04:21] <key> oh
# [04:21] <miketaylr> plus, it comes with some sweet stickers
# [04:21] <key> what do the stickers look like?
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# [04:22] <miketaylr> dunno, just graphic designey chrome things
# [04:22] <key> k
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# [04:22] <key> ok so what do you think of my idea to use body styling for whole window, then div document styling for the web page styling?
# [04:22] <key> (page, logically speaking)
# [04:22] <paul_irish> sounds great
# [04:22] <paul_irish> kroc camen recommended that a while ago
# [04:22] <paul_irish> and he's pretty smart
# [04:23] <key> paul_irish: ok awesome, thank you! can you envision any problems with http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua version 2?
# [04:23] <key> really?
# [04:23] <key> i didn't see that
# [04:23] <paul_irish> you are using quite a few IDs which seem superfluous to me, but other than that, the structure is peachy
# [04:23] <key> ok let me strip those; i have a feeling you are correct
# [04:24] <tw2113> i see how it is...you listen to him but not me
# [04:24] <tw2113> jk it's all good
# [04:24] <tw2113> as long as it gets done :D
# [04:24] <key> would it make sense to switch them to classes? or? basically, i want to affect style to the document div, the main menu + items, and the section menu + items all distinctly
# [04:24] <key> he's the paul :P
# [04:24] <tw2113> you can target them pretty well without eiter
# [04:24] <paul_irish> ^
# [04:24] <tw2113> either*
# [04:24] <paul_irish> document id you probably want
# [04:25] <paul_irish> the rest i dont see a need for
# [04:25] <paul_irish> s/rest/other two
# [04:25] <key> can you target a UL within a UL within the NAV distinctly from the UL within the NAV?
# [04:25] <paul_irish> yes.......
# [04:25] <paul_irish> nav ul ul {
# [04:26] <tw2113> ^
# [04:26] <paul_irish> typically inside there you'll cancel any generic nav ul { rules you have that you dont want
# [04:26] <key> oh interesting. and that's superior to defining style via #menu ul {} and #section-menu ul {} ?
# [04:26] <tw2113> it gets a bit more difficult if you have nested ul's twice in the same nav, but your current setup is easy enough
# [04:26] <paul_irish> of course if you're not supporting IE6 then you can use nav ul > li > ul { and have plenty of control
# [04:28] <key> just out of curiosity, why is this better than targetting the ul's by their id?
# [04:28] <tw2113> this way you don't even need to declare the IDs
# [04:28] <tw2113> save on page weight
# [04:29] <key> nice.
# [04:29] <tw2113> bingo, i knew it was Andy Clarke that did this article http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/css_specificity_wars.html
# [04:30] <key> reading now
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# [04:30] <tw2113> beware 2 sith lords!
# [04:32] <BrianBlakely> Code is way easier to read with semantic tags over class/id dotted on everything
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# [04:32] * tw2113 won't deny being class happy sometimes
# [04:33] <tw2113> i need to work more with css attribute selectors
# [04:33] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: check this badboy out http://camendesign.com/design/design.css
# [04:34] <key> uh, OMG
# [04:34] <miketaylr> that's some hardcore css
# [04:34] <tw2113> i am not seeing any classes in that paul_irish
# [04:35] <tw2113> i officially feel inferior
# [04:35] <miketaylr> "HTML5, no DIVs/SPANs, no IDs and no classes"
# [04:35] <paul_irish> it's a bit overwhelming
# [04:35] <miketaylr> #whatever #i #do #what { i: want }
# [04:35] <paul_irish> miketaylr++
# [04:36] <key> hmm
# [04:36] <key> nothing shows on the camendesign.com page
# [04:36] <key> in the content area
# [04:36] <BrianBlakely> paul_irish: Nice, I'm very down with attribute selectors
# [04:36] <tw2113> the quote at the top is the content for the page at the moment
# [04:36] <key> is this guy chillin in here?
# [04:36] <paul_irish> attribute selectors are heaven. i think people who dropped IE6 support forget that so many selectors are available to them now
# [04:37] <key> yea i dont care about ie6
# [04:37] <tw2113> i just need to make sure sites are useable in IE, not pixel perfect or anything like that
# [04:38] <tw2113> this camendesign guy had a bit of a rant about RSS not too long ago
# [04:38] <jetienne> do you think he generated that ? or he maintains this file by hand ?
# [04:38] <key> http://camendesign.com/code-is-art/
# [04:39] <tw2113> mmm creative commons
# [04:39] <paul_irish> jetienne: definitely by hand
# [04:40] <paul_irish> he has this one post about 8 lines of php that took him two months to write
# [04:40] <key> url?
# [04:40] <jetienne> :)
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# [04:41] <paul_irish> key: earlier thing thing
# [04:41] <paul_irish> http://camendesign.com/code-is-art/developpeurs_sans_frontieres
# [04:42] <BrianBlakely> paul_irish: http://innint.com/internal/ui-hulk-out/#beyondie6
# [04:42] <key> that falls back really nicely
# [04:42] <BrianBlakely> Guide I put together for my team, I believe it's comprehensive
# [04:43] <key> excellent work BrianBlakely, i'll study it
# [04:43] <key> thank you
# [04:43] <BrianBlakely> :D
# [04:43] <BrianBlakely> Might want to clip that to Evernote
# [04:43] <BrianBlakely> It might go behind a firewall soon
# [04:44] <tw2113> i wish the evernote clipper for firefox would update to the betas :D unless i need the beta version of that
# [04:45] <BrianBlakely> key: One important thing to note is that :last-child is not supported in IE7, but :first-child is
# [04:45] <key> whoa
# [04:45] <paul_irish> but :last-of-type is, i think
# [04:45] <BrianBlakely> …I guess Microsoft couldn't afford to go both ways
# [04:45] <BrianBlakely> Really?
# [04:45] <key> paul_irish: tw2113, this directly addresses my earlier question of using a div so body could set window bg color, and div could set document bg color!! : http://camendesign.com/code-is-art/developpeurs_sans_frontieres
# [04:46] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: nope
# [04:46] <key> bg color on html for same effect, how genius!
# [04:46] <key> html + body
# [04:46] <BrianBlakely> k
# [04:46] <tw2113> and sounds like that won't break too much if anything, key
# [04:46] <BrianBlakely> key: wat
# [04:47] <key> BrianBlakely: earlier i was showing this: http://www.pastie.org/pastes/1540362/edit?key=z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua
# [04:47] <BrianBlakely> key: I recommend putting your "window" background on <html>, and using the <body> as your layout container
# [04:47] <key> i used div id=document to fix width and center my web page, logically speaking
# [04:47] <key> yes
# [04:47] <key> i shall now do that
# [04:47] <key> sank you
# [04:48] <BrianBlakely> key: I have the feeling I chimed in with that a few lines too late :P
# [04:48] <tw2113> all these needless containers zomg
# [04:48] <key> it's nice they are going away
# [04:48] <key> going AWAYYY
# [04:48] <key> no brian your timing was perfect
# [04:48] <BrianBlakely> haha, great
# [04:48] <key> all of this confirmation all at once sealed the deal
# [04:48] <tw2113> set yourslf apart key
# [04:49] <tw2113> laugh at those that still do "<div class="container"> "
# [04:49] <tw2113> "bahahaha noob!"
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# [04:50] <key> nubbles
# [04:50] <key> im gonna tune my html down to like, 3 lines. gonna be wild
# [04:52] <BrianBlakely> Anyone have any word on what IE9 RC will support?
# [04:52] <BrianBlakely> I'm really nervous gradients won't make it in
# [04:52] <BrianBlakely> That would suck
# [04:52] <key> http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/images/specificitywars-05v2.jpg
# [04:52] <paul_irish> there are suspicions
# [04:52] <key> rofl that's so rad
# [04:52] <paul_irish> i dont think gradients will make it.
# [04:52] <BrianBlakely> Awesome
# [04:53] <BrianBlakely> SVG backgrounds it is, then
# [04:53] <paul_irish> because the spec only solidified 45 days ago
# [04:53] <BrianBlakely> Weird justification
# [04:53] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: can you host this ui hulk out somewhere else permamentnaly
# [04:54] <BrianBlakely> For YOU Paul… yes.
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# [04:57] <paul_irish> and gimme the URL because i want that ie6 section
# [04:57] <paul_irish> actually.. brian.. just link it up in the lazyweb-requests repo
# [04:57] <paul_irish> in browser death features
# [05:00] <key> http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua <-- i removed the DIV, preparing for bg color in html and body tags, and using body to fix width of web page and center it
# [05:01] <paul_irish> groovy
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# [05:06] <key> so you guys suggested i strip the id's, which i did. what about the classes? should i use those or is there a sexier way croc camen would do it?
# [05:06] <BrianBlakely> Alright, it's now at a location at which I can ensure openness
# [05:07] <paul_irish> thank you brian....
# [05:07] <BrianBlakely> http://analogysoft.com/learning/ui-hulk-out/#beyondie6
# [05:07] <tw2113> the "active" class I could see being needed
# [05:07] <paul_irish> key: good for now
# [05:07] <paul_irish> you should just like..
# [05:07] <paul_irish> make it
# [05:07] <paul_irish> and stop futzing
# [05:07] <tw2113> do it to it
# [05:07] <tw2113> diti!
# [05:08] <key> it's a big step :P
# [05:08] * key dives in
# [05:08] <tw2113> meanwhile, i need to find my copy of Hype!
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# [05:09] <tw2113> whoa, i'm off topic
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# [05:14] <key> http://camendesign.com/code-is-art/developpeurs_sans_frontieres => "body {width: 600px; margin: 20px auto; /* center */ padding: 20px;"
# [05:15] <key> is that the best way to center your content?
# [05:15] <key> looks to me like it's within a comment
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# [05:16] <tw2113> the auto part does it
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# [05:16] <key> what does /* center */ do?
# [05:16] <BrianBlakely> It's just a comment
# [05:16] <tw2113> reminds him that it's being centered
# [05:16] <tw2113> http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/center1.html
# [05:17] <key> ahh
# [05:17] <tw2113> :P
# [05:17] <key> nice
# [05:17] <key> thanks bro
# [05:19] <tw2113> old but does the trick of explaining
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# [05:29] <paul_irish> bye friends. :(
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# [05:29] <key> so is it good that croc design doesn't use class/id? aren't they in the spec for a reason? (not to be abused, of course)
# [05:30] <paul_irish> its showmanship.
# [05:30] <paul_irish> that stylesheet is not representative of real life.
# [05:30] <key> ok, noted. but still, is it best to avoid id/class as he does?
# [05:31] <paul_irish> retlehs: hey man :)
# [05:32] <tw2113> clearly it's possible to key
# [05:32] <BrianBlakely> Good night HTML5
# [05:32] <paul_irish> key: nah its fine.
# [05:32] <tw2113> but really it's personal preference and how much you want to deal with
# [05:32] <paul_irish> you should really focus on building.
# [05:32] <paul_irish> it's too early for you to spend to much time on theory
# [05:32] <paul_irish> for real
# [05:32] <key> paul_irish: i am bro, but i'm also learning as i go along
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# [05:32] <key> researching, reading, etc
# [05:32] <key> i'm definitely building; iterating
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# [05:33] <tw2113> you could think of it this way, build first, optimize later, until you get knowledgeable and can optimize from the getgo
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# [05:33] <tw2113> once the familiarity is there
# [05:33] <key> yea, and that's how i work, and am working
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# [05:33] <key> that's the beauty of css, most of my site is already built
# [05:34] <tw2113> you're optimizing first :P
# [05:34] <key> just styling, etc now
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# [05:34] <key> well, optimizing /as well/, you could say
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# [05:34] <tw2113> where's a website with that markup structure?
# [05:34] <tw2113> something yoy put together
# [05:34] <tw2113> you*
# [05:34] <key> local
# [05:35] <key> ill put code up tho
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# [05:35] <key> when i have a reason, i guess
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# [05:35] <tw2113> paul_irish would you agree with the idea of release early release often?
# [05:35] <key> that idea is very vaguely & broadly defined, as well oft abused
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# [05:36] <tw2113> not really
# [05:36] <key> i've been around since before the expression was harped
# [05:36] <tw2113> release early: get SOMETHING out
# [05:36] <tw2113> fix some stuff, release again
# [05:36] <tw2113> rinse repeat
# [05:37] <key> it's a matter of balance. it takes time to develop, as well practice, as any other matter of technique
# [05:37] <key> i'm aware of the issue, and am on top of it
# [05:37] <tw2113> :P
# [05:37] <key> but i appreciate your thoughts
# [05:38] <tw2113> woohoo, thepiratebay has a redd kross discography torrent
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# [05:40] <snover> who the hell is croc camen?
# [05:40] <key> your master
# [05:40] <snover> that doesn’t sound right.
# [05:40] <tw2113> lord and master?
# [05:40] <key> it never does snover, it never does
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# [05:41] <snover> no, still wrong. thanks for trying, tw2113
# [05:41] <snover> i appreciate you going out on a limb like that
# [05:41] <tw2113> *grin*
# [05:41] <key> lol
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# [06:04] <retlehs> paul_irish: hey bro
# [06:05] <retlehs> how's it going
# [06:05] <paul_irish> good to see you back in IRC :) haha
# [06:05] <paul_irish> it's been a good.. 10 years or whatever
# [06:05] <retlehs> lol yeah i haven't been back in that old place in a minute
# [06:05] <retlehs> been lurking in here for a bit, forget i'm here sometimes
# [06:05] <paul_irish> was it #downtempo or imagine? or chilledbeats?
# [06:06] <retlehs> imagine
# [06:06] <paul_irish> wooord! that was the leetest.
# [06:06] <retlehs> for sure. glad aurgasm is around :)
# [06:06] <paul_irish> right now i'm trying to write a few paragraphs on how using css3 makes for faster pages.
# [06:06] <retlehs> nice
# [06:06] <paul_irish> same! did you listen through http://welcomehohme.com/hohme-hundred-2010/ ?
# [06:07] <paul_irish> it's suprisingly good.
# [06:07] <retlehs> not yet... damn that's quite the list
# [06:07] <retlehs> (i know what i'll be doing tomorrow)
# [06:08] <paul_irish> real classy picks.
# [06:08] <paul_irish> im gonna try to get him to draft a few posts for aurgasm
# [06:08] <retlehs> that would be sweet
# [06:09] <retlehs> i'm about to be dropping a html5 boilerplate+blueprint css+starkers wordpress theme
# [06:09] <retlehs> created it around the time you made frontend-pro-template, finally getting it ready to share
# [06:09] <paul_irish> huge
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# [06:13] <retlehs> heading out, later man. thanks for the link to those mixes
# [06:13] <paul_irish> cheers
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# [06:15] <JonathanNeal> Woooooo +1
# [06:16] <jetienne_> chrome got webgl in stable but still console.assert(false) doesnt show in the console #fail
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# [06:37] <paul_irish> jetienne_: new.crbug.com plzzz
# [06:37] <paul_irish> i will get it fixxd
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# [06:41] <jetienne_> paul_irish: thx http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=72390
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# [10:53] <key> sup fellas
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# [12:06] <swiss-chris> is it o.k. to call (JavaScript) wondow.postMessage(value, "file://") for a file on the local file system? I'm getting "Unable to post message to null. Recipient has origin null." in Google Chrome
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# [14:36] <Neiluj> paul_irish: you asked for css filters few weeks ago we would like, grayscale could be cool for enabled/disabled images :)
# [14:38] <Neiluj> img.disabled { color-depth: 8bit-grayscale; } or something :)
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# [15:04] <Evet> which format is google's tts? ogg?
# [15:06] <ben_c> I think it might be mp3
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# [15:07] <ben_c> http://translate.google.com/translate_tts?q=html5+wrocks
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# [15:09] <jetienne> ben_c: translate_tts ? is that official api ?
# [15:09] <ben_c> I don't think so at the moment
# [15:10] <ben_c> jetienne: but it has been around for ages
# [15:10] <jetienne> ok , i would love an official tts :)
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# [15:35] <jetienne> ben_c: they limit the rate of this API a very rapidly tho :) just me doing human tries triggered a capcha
# [15:37] <jetienne> i want to have all my classic book read to me during my sleep. would help me sleep and learn
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# [15:45] <line> hey, guys
# [15:45] <line> coming back to the question of kinetic scrollable containers
# [15:45] <line> on iScroll page
# [15:46] <line> it is written
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# [15:46] <line> desktopCompatibility: for debug purpose you can set this to true to have the script behave on desktop webkit (Safari and Chrome) as it were a touch enabled device.
# [15:46] <line> it seems like it's not so good solution to use this lib for desktop browsers?
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# [16:18] <Neiluj> line: like I told you yesterday, some of us have already software or hardware kinetic scrolling
# [16:18] <Neiluj> since you can't detect it, I would say it's a bad pratice
# [16:19] <line> bad practice to have a kinetic scrolling container?
# [16:19] <Neiluj> line: for mobile browser, you're using it only on some overscroll: auto things right ? not the whole <body> ? :)
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# [16:19] <Neiluj> bad practice to offer something some people don't need because they already have
# [16:19] <Neiluj> double rainbow !
# [16:20] <Neiluj> :D
# [16:20] <line> yes
# [16:20] <line> but it would be working very bad?
# [16:20] <Neiluj> I think so yes
# [16:20] <Neiluj> because the scroll event is firing more...
# [16:20] <line> and what browsers are having kinetic scroll?
# [16:20] <line> desktop? mobile?
# [16:20] <Neiluj> it won't be usable since you're going to scroll more
# [16:21] <line> yep i get it
# [16:21] <Neiluj> it doens't depend on the browser
# [16:21] <Neiluj> like I said, they're some kinetic mouse
# [16:21] <Neiluj> free wheels
# [16:21] <Neiluj> guys in my team got one
# [16:22] <Neiluj> I have kinetic scrolling with my mac trackpad, it's a system settings
# [16:22] <line> so if i'm just using jquery ui draggable it's gonna be kinetic?
# [16:22] <Neiluj> no possible way to detect it without asking the user to make a scroll and to see if the scroll events are looking like kinetic ones :)
# [16:22] <line> yep ok
# [16:22] <Neiluj> draggable ?
# [16:22] <line> yes
# [16:22] <Neiluj> why not over overflow: auto ?
# [16:23] <Neiluj> O_o
# [16:23] <line> because i'm doing scroll with drag
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# [16:23] <line> for the horizontal container
# [16:23] <line> sorry, i missed this explanation :)
# [16:23] <Neiluj> mmh...
# [16:23] <Neiluj> I can't scroll horizontally
# [16:23] <Neiluj> I can sorry
# [16:23] <line> but drag & scroll?
# [16:24] <line> it's not gonna be kinetic
# [16:24] <Neiluj> for touch devices, I would say : cool, for not-touch devices ? :/
# [16:24] <Neiluj> not very user-friendly
# [16:24] <line> based on sensitivity
# [16:25] <line> http://appear.dk/
# [16:25] <line> check this ou
# [16:25] <Neiluj> the only reason I used $.fn.overscroll was because I made a webapp running onto a webkit browser on touchscreens, but not a mobile device
# [16:25] <line> it works and pretty cool
# [16:25] <Neiluj> the only reason I used iScroll was because I needed to use overflow: auto on iOS devices
# [16:25] <Neiluj> and the two fingers wasn't a good option
# [16:26] <line> sure
# [16:26] <line> so i'm trying to understand the better solution
# [16:26] <line> for developing the scrollable content on mobiles and deskto
# [16:26] <line> p
# [16:27] <Neiluj> http://appear.dk/ looks cool but I can't use my "native" scroll
# [16:27] <line> anyway
# [16:27] <line> go inside the project
# [16:27] <line> i don't like usability while looking through the list of projects
# [16:28] <line> but inside it's working fine
# [16:28] <Neiluj> imo, removing/changing some native behaviors is not a good thing, well it can sometimes but it should really worth it
# [16:29] <line> sure
# [16:29] <Neiluj> see how they needed to put a tooltip to explain people how to use their site ;)
# [16:29] <line> trust me in my case it's very cool :)
# [16:30] <Neiluj> do you have a scrollbar ?
# [16:30] <line> i have a slider
# [16:30] <line> look i'll show you
# [16:30] <line> http://ptarmak.com/
# [16:31] <line> this is looking similar
# [16:31] <line> to what i'm developing now
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# [16:31] <line> i'm having a slider
# [16:31] <Neiluj> a native one ?
# [16:31] <line> and a scrollable container
# [16:31] <line> yes, vertical
# [16:31] <Neiluj> ok
# [16:32] <Neiluj> see the cross cursor ? better than a tooltip, I would recommend this
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# [16:32] <line> sure :)
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# [16:42] <ben_c> What are peoples opinions on using 'Web Databases' in a mobile webapp? Considering it's 'no longer being worked on'
# [16:42] <ben_c> Implementation is pretty good
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# [17:35] <JonathanNeal> Hello
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# [17:44] <paul_irish> hi
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# [18:03] <symb> lo
# [18:04] <tw2113> allo
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# [18:12] <Neiluj> hey paul_irish
# [18:13] <paul_irish> hey julien
# [18:13] <Neiluj> didn't see it in undetectables but is this kind of one : overscroll: auto on mobile devices?
# [18:13] <paul_irish> sounds like one
# [18:13] <paul_irish> overflow* ?
# [18:13] <Neiluj> thing is, it's supported but with it needs 2 fingers scroll
# [18:14] <paul_irish> oh that.
# [18:14] <Neiluj> yeah that
# [18:14] <paul_irish> sounds like a feature
# [18:14] <Neiluj> yeah, sounds too to me
# [18:14] <paul_irish> mobile gmail team overlayed a div on top of the textarea to deal with that
# [18:15] <Neiluj> mmmh interesting
# [18:15] <Neiluj> didn't test gmail on my iPad actually
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# [18:28] <ben225> Anyone have experience using jquery to swap video src in <video> ?
# [18:29] <ben225> I've built a player module, based off Video for everyone, am working on developing a thumbnail gallery that will swap the source on the dom.
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# [18:42] <mokush> what's the best way to get a property from a css file? except parsing the entire file with cssRules
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# [18:46] <paul_irish> mokush: getComputedStyle ?
# [18:47] <mokush> paul_irish: doesn't getComputedStyle work only on elements that are in the dom?
# [18:47] <paul_irish> yup
# [18:47] <paul_irish> no way other than getComputedStyle or the CSSOM
# [18:48] <mokush> paul_irish: I need to basicly get a property only defined in CSS, the actual element is not in the dom yet.
# [18:48] <mokush> right now, I'm appending the node in the dom, getting the value, and them removeing it, but it doesn't seem like the best option.
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# [18:49] <paul_irish> i dont know of a better one.
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# [18:50] <mokush> paul_irish: :((
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# [18:56] <Neiluj> ben225: I did
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# [18:57] <ben225> Neiluj, do you have a demo of what you've built?
# [18:57] <ben225> I'm just using jQuery to pull the dom (0) from the video, then manipulating it from there..
# [18:57] <ben225> I'm kind of in route, but the idea is making a module to support mp4/ogv/webm
# [18:58] <Neiluj> oh, are you talking about switch the src or the source ?
# [18:58] <Neiluj> I mean <source>
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# [19:15] <Brodingo> using video tag with vimeo videos?
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# [19:27] <Neiluj> http://mir.aculo.us/2011/02/08/visualizing-webkits-hardware-acceleration/ cool tip :)
# [19:27] <paul_irish> chrome has one too.
# [19:28] <Neiluj> paul_irish: same command ?
# [19:28] <paul_irish> --show-composited-layer-borders Renders a border around composited Render Layers to help debug and study layer compositing.
# [19:31] <Neiluj> you should tweet about it :)
# [19:31] <Neiluj> thx
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# [19:58] <paul_irish> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=61523#c7 "Yes, Vangelis plans to turn 3D CSS on in 11 within the next week."
# [20:00] <Neiluj> btw, paul_irish, did you see my post about grayscale ?
# [20:01] <paul_irish> yes. i captured greyscale because i proposed saturation as #2 biggest feature request
# [20:01] <Neiluj> ok nice
# [20:02] <Neiluj> would it work also on <img> or background-image ?
# [20:02] <Neiluj> that would be supa cool :)
# [20:02] <paul_irish> backgrounds would be tough
# [20:03] <Neiluj> what is the current #1 request ?
# [20:03] <paul_irish> but for example: .grey, img.omgnocolor { filter: saturation(0.15); }
# [20:03] <paul_irish> blur.
# [20:04] <Neiluj> yeah i knew it :) :)
# [20:04] <Neiluj> great
# [20:05] <paul_irish> Neiluj: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jan/0049.html
# [20:06] <Neiluj> thx bookmarked
# [20:07] <Neiluj> ok, saw your google sheet, dont know if there's a technical better name but what about bump ? is it too "3D-ish" ?
# [20:08] <Neiluj> actually, mapping (bump or displacement)
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# [20:09] <paul_irish> bump mapping? hah... good luck with that :)
# [20:09] <Neiluj> I remember to put this request
# [20:09] <Neiluj> hehe yeah I know, hard one ;)
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# [20:10] <paul_irish> the idea for these ones were to have some prebuild shorthand filters
# [20:10] <paul_irish> but for everyone to support the more standard SVG filters for full power
# [20:10] <Neiluj> actually it would just be great to shut my flash-colleague's mouth with that :D
# [20:10] <paul_irish> though.. i dont think bump mapping can be done in svg... shrug.
# [20:10] <paul_irish> since doug has svg on his notify list, he'll probably chime in at some point.. ;)
# [20:11] <Neiluj> nah I don't think so, didn't know it was about svg filters but filters in general :)
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# [20:12] <paul_irish> v
# [20:12] <paul_irish> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Feb/0298.html
# [20:13] <Neiluj> -m$- hehe good one
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# [20:43] <Neiluj> paul_irish: did you test the 4 placeholder polyfills on Modernizr's wiki ? None of them is doing the work "really" fine :(
# [20:43] <Neiluj> the hard thing is about password...
# [20:48] <Neiluj> trying webshims...
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# [21:19] <Neiluj> damn webshim is doing better placeholder but have a bug, that sucks
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# [21:20] <danielfilho> dude. I think prefer web inspector instead of firebug. Are so rare when I need to open firebug to debug something couldn't with web inspector.
# [21:20] <danielfilho> like, I switched :D
# [21:21] <danielfilho> And dragonfly still great.
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# [21:42] <mokush_> danielfilho: if only it would have some sort of option to disable cache, like firebug
# [21:42] <danielfilho> that would be totally amazing.
# [21:42] <danielfilho> but I'm sure they're working on something like that
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# [21:47] <Pewpewarrows> I just test everything in incognito
# [21:47] <Pewpewarrows> eliminates most cache issues I ever have
# [21:48] <paul_irish> there JUST landed a button to clear the cache
# [21:51] <Neiluj> paul_irish: without quitting ?
# [21:52] <Peter`> paul_irish: huh?
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# [21:54] <Kilian]> hi
# [21:55] <paul_irish> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/77922 <== Neiluj Peter`
# [21:55] <paul_irish> see alsso http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=8742
# [21:56] <Peter`> paul_irish: that's a shortcut
# [21:56] <Peter`> Ctrl(Cmd)+Shift+R
# [21:57] <Kilian]> i want to use the html5 video tag with firefox4 beta nightly build, problem is that my video, an ogv (theroa video with vorbis audio) isnt regocnized, if read that it have to be changed in the htaccess file of appache, anotehr soultion could be to add type and codec information to the videotag but this doesnt help, i have no access to the servers apache atm, so is there another way to get this video playing on Firefox4beta?
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# [21:58] <Neiluj> Kilian]: did you implemented it this way ? http://zeedev.aaz.fr/chrome-video-autoplay-bug/
# [21:58] <Neiluj> Kilian]: look at <source>
# [21:59] <Kilian]> lol both videos are autoplayed for me ...
# [21:59] <Neiluj> Kilian]: it's a chrome bug ;)
# [21:59] <Neiluj> like its name says
# [21:59] <Kilian]> Neiluj: mostly the same like my side
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# [22:00] <Neiluj> Kilian]: so you used <source type="video/ogg"> and nothing happens ?
# [22:00] <Kilian]> <source src='tablet.ogv' type='video/ogg; codecs="theora, vorbis"' />
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# [22:01] <Kilian]> thats what iam using
# [22:01] <Neiluj> ok
# [22:01] <Neiluj> try just video/ogg just to see...
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# [22:02] <key> http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua <-- this is my question, version 2 (include all submenus whether they're active or not) or version 3 (have server only include submenu that is active)?
# [22:03] <Kilian]> Neiluj: same problem
# [22:03] <Neiluj> Kilian]: okay, weird
# [22:03] <Neiluj> Kilian]: what did you use for encoding ?
# [22:04] <Kilian]> for my video ?
# [22:04] <Neiluj> key: version twoooooo ! :D
# [22:04] <Neiluj> Kilian]: yup
# [22:04] <key> we know you prefer that one! :P
# [22:04] <Kilian]> i create it with kdenlive
# [22:04] <Kilian]> mom
# [22:04] <Neiluj> Kilian]: have a link ?
# [22:05] <Neiluj> did you try reading this video with VLC or something ?
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# [22:05] <Kilian]> Neiluj: video is working
# [22:06] <Kilian]> kdenlive told me its using theora with libvornis
# [22:06] <Kilian]> *vorbis
# [22:06] <Neiluj> Kilian]: what is VLC telling you ?
# [22:06] <Kilian]> vlc info says the same
# [22:06] <Neiluj> ok
# [22:06] <Neiluj> weird :)
# [22:07] <Kilian]> and its working with chromium but not with firefox
# [22:08] <Kilian]> thanks for help, so it looks like i have to change apaches mime types ...
# [22:10] <franksalim> At least according to https://developer.mozilla.org/En/HTML/Element/Video, "if the MIME types for Theora video are not set on the server, the video may not show or show a gray box containing an X"
# [22:10] <Neiluj> sounds to, I don't know if my apache is handling it, actually I don't have a hand on this
# [22:11] <Kilian]> and i have no access at the moment to the apache
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# [22:11] <Kilian]> thansk for the help
# [22:11] <Neiluj> you're welcome, maybe .htaccess can do the job ? any htaccess experts in here ?
# [22:12] <Neiluj> Kilian]: http://html5boilerplate.com/ > .htaccess
# [22:12] <Neiluj> AddType video/ogg ogg ogv
# [22:12] <Neiluj> oops AddType video/ogg ogg ogv
# [22:13] <Kilian]> thanks
# [22:14] <key> that html5 boiletplate looks good
# [22:14] <Neiluj> key: say thanks to paul_irish, he's THE guy
# [22:14] <key> yea he seems like a genius
# [22:14] <Neiluj> ?fpi
# [22:14] <bot-t> fucking paul irish! http://i.imgur.com/gpspl.png
# [22:15] <key> except, "<!-- Uncomment if you are specifically targeting less enabled mobile browsers " seems fucked up
# [22:15] <key> he should fix that
# [22:15] <key> hahaha
# [22:15] <key> wtf
# [22:15] <Neiluj> got to go, bye guys
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# [22:16] <Kilian]> bye
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# [22:21] <JonathanNeal> word
# [22:24] <key> paul_irish: i have a question regarding how to handle my submenu. should i put every submenu in my menu and just hide inactive ones? or should i use server side scripting to only put in the submenu of the active section? (http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua version 2 vs version 3)
# [22:24] <paul_irish> can't look atm. interview.
# [22:24] <key> oh, okay :/
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# [23:07] <BrianBlakely> #html5 opinions on the new HPalm devices?
# [23:08] <nimbupani> who has used it to have an opinion on it?
# [23:08] <tw2113> what are opinions?
# [23:09] <tw2113> and how much do they cost
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# [23:10] <BrianBlakely> heh, nvm!
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# [23:10] <BrianBlakely> I think they're absolutely gorgeous, and it's a real shame that webOS has such poor standards support
# [23:11] <BrianBlakely> Makes porting of iOS/Chrome apps difficult
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# [23:24] <techrush_> imo HP just announced the slow painful death of webOS today
# [23:24] <techrush_> nothing shipping until summer and no prices/carrier info available
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# [23:28] <BrianBlakely> techrush_: That was really weird, after they said the products would be launching "weeks" after the announcement
# [23:28] <BrianBlakely> Yeah, 24 weeks after...
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# [23:30] <techrush_> yea they arent giving webOS 2.0 to the old hardware owners either
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# [23:30] <techrush_> pretty bad mistep
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# [23:38] <dgathright> BrianBlakely: What are your complaints about lack of standards support in webOS?
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# [23:43] <jetienne> (webos got apps in nodejs no ? my memory is triggering this info)
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# [23:49] <BrianBlakely> dgathright: What aren't my complaints is probably a shorter list
# [23:50] <tw2113> did they typo the doctype?
# [23:50] <tw2113> :D
# [23:50] <BrianBlakely> dgathright: SVG, for starters… finicky flexbox and gradient support, nonexistent support for box/text-shadow, WebSockets, nice things like hardware acceleration, no solid plans for WebGL
# [23:51] <BrianBlakely> It's pretty piss-poor for an OS who apps are built exclusively on The Platform
# [23:52] <dgathright> BrianBlakely: Understandable. Send a list of complaints to Lisa.Brewster@palm.com. Let em know.
# [23:52] <BrianBlakely> dgathright: Are you from Palm?
# [23:52] <dgathright> nope, just an active member of the community.
# [23:53] <shepazu> I have 2 palms
# [23:53] <BrianBlakely> Oh, OK, I'm BrianMB on the dev forum
# [23:53] <dgathright> ah, cool.
# [23:53] <BrianBlakely> I've been gushing steam all day on there, admittedly :3
# [23:53] <BrianBlakely> But I won't muck up this channel with that
# [23:54] <tw2113> if only we had some wine so we could use the corks in BrianBlakely's ears
# [23:54] <tw2113> keep the steam bottled up
# [23:54] <BrianBlakely> Yes …?
# [23:54] <tw2113> we could turn him into a steam engine
# [23:54] <tw2113> :D
# [23:55] <dgathright> BrianBlakely: websockets can be handled with socket.io (client) or Node (server-side). I've done it w/ my Pre2 device. Besides, websockets are currently disabled in all browsers because of security issues (right?). I too am a little disappointed they haven't followed through with promise (in the spring) for hardware accelerated CSS animations.
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# [23:56] <franksalim> dgathright: not disabled in chrome (or safari?) to my knowledge
# [23:56] <franksalim> (websocket)
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# [23:58] <dgathright> Ah, not disabled, yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebSockets "Chrome also plans to disable the WebSocket if actual exploit code appears before the protocol is revised"
# [23:58] <BrianBlakely> dgathright: Mobile Safari has everything webOS doesn't
# [23:58] <BrianBlakely> Mobile Safari is the REAL webOS :P
# [23:58] <franksalim> considering that this exploit also works with flash and java applets, and we haven't seen it in the wild yet...
# [23:59] * ericduran|afk is now known as ericduran
# Session Close: Thu Feb 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)