/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-02-17 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Feb 17 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
# [00:00] <BrianBlakely> Soon we will be creating webapps by survey
# [00:01] <cheilmann> the gameboy emu looks fun - would be better if you added a demo rom already
# [00:01] <cheilmann> I am stumped right now where to find one
# [00:01] <grantg> cheilmann: doperoms.com
# [00:01] <BrianBlakely> "Question 86: Would you like to mark up the sidebar with <aside> or <nav>?"
# [00:01] <grantg> just don't click on the ads
# [00:01] * tw2113 saw nothing
# [00:01] <grantg> heh
# [00:01] <cheilmann> depends if the sidebar has links in it or not
# [00:02] <grantg> and unzip the zips
# [00:02] <cheilmann> aside contains everything
# [00:02] <tw2113> bruce lawson has navs inside asides
# [00:02] <grantg> the emulator only wants the raw .gb and .gbc files
# [00:02] <cheilmann> which makes sense
# [00:02] <grantg> :P
# [00:02] <BrianBlakely> grantg: Submit your emu to Chrome Web Store
# [00:02] <cheilmann> he explains it in the book chapter quite nicely
# [00:02] * tw2113 has that book next to him now
# [00:02] <cheilmann> and add an unzip in JS :)
# [00:03] <BrianBlakely> grantg: Sell it for $0.99, ???, profit
# [00:03] <BrianBlakely> ??? = people buy it
# [00:03] <tw2113> people buy stuff?
# [00:03] <grantg> cheilmann: That would require a separate js lib
# [00:03] <tw2113> madness
# [00:03] <cheilmann> tw2113: yeah but yours doesn't have the, err, worrying? dedication in it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/codepo8/4922842349/
# [00:03] <BrianBlakely> tw2113: Only good people
# [00:03] <grantg> BrianBlakely: Too bad people would pirate my stuff on cydia
# [00:03] <cheilmann> madness? SPARTA!
# [00:03] <grantg> I will probably charge cents
# [00:04] <tw2113> i wonder if he'd sign mine if i mailed it to him
# [00:04] <BrianBlakely> grantg: I didn't know Cydia supported CWS
# [00:04] * tw2113 wont part with it no no no no no
# [00:04] <grantg> There are pay apps on cydia you know
# [00:04] <cheilmann> but at least this time he didn't paint any goat nipples: http://www.flickr.com/photos/codepo8/2051750081/
# [00:05] * tw2113 notes to visit multi-column css tomorrow
# [00:06] * dgathright is going to start a band and name it "Goatnipples"
# [00:06] <cheilmann> I will be in the valley 22nd - 28th
# [00:06] <cheilmann> interviewing folk in Mountain View
# [00:06] <tw2113> my default fake band name is "Achoo and the Sneezes"
# [00:06] <cheilmann> The other day I thought "Paedos in Speedos" would be an amazing band name
# [00:07] <grantg> Though I still really want to make the price $0.00
# [00:08] <grantg> So that my GBA app gets lots of buyers
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# [00:08] <grantg> By the good reputation from my GBC app. ;D
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# [00:09] <grantg> 0 points (18% like it) 3 up votes 13 down votes
# [00:10] <grantg> D:
# [00:10] <tw2113> any of you know if chrome supports foo[role="bar"] ?
# [00:10] * Parts: xonecas (~xonecas@c-98-207-113-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [00:10] <cheilmann> simple to test
# [00:10] <tw2113> yeah but i am not sure if it's something i'm doing wrong or not
# [00:10] <tw2113> if i've done right, then no
# [00:10] <cheilmann> OK Entanglement is a cool game but makes my fan go off
# [00:11] <cheilmann> ;(
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# [00:11] <cheilmann> and "gopherwood studios" sounds like a company that could have a very wrong logo
# [00:12] <gandoff> i have a horizontal menu made out of a UL. now, the height of the UL needs to be taller than the height of its LIs. is this ok? will the LI's always be vertically aligned to top?
# [00:12] * tw2113 slugs himself
# [00:12] <tw2113> it helps if i spell things right
# [00:12] <grantg> cheilmann: Got the ROMs?
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# [00:15] <tw2113> sounds like it should gandoff
# [00:16] <grantg> wut - http://www.frostwire.com/android
# [00:16] <tw2113> heh
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# [00:17] <cheilmann> wow that rom site has a lot
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# [00:17] <cheilmann> I remember doing logos for a game park 32 demo :)
# [00:18] <cheilmann> I think we were the only people ever to release a demo on there
# [00:18] <cheilmann> gandoff: yeah
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# [00:19] <grantg> http://doperoms.com/roms/Gameboy_And_Gbc.html
# [00:19] <grantg> ^_^
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# [00:22] <cheilmann> yeah just playing Choplifter
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# [00:23] <grantg> on firefox 4 I hope?
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# [00:23] <gandoff> ok thanks tw2113 and cheilmann. btw, which property is at work here to make a LI+A be top aligned in a vertically larger/taller UL?
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# [00:24] <cheilmann> wow, All Your Base is 10 years today: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/all-your-base-are-belong-to-us
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# [00:24] <cheilmann> by default they are top-aligned
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# [00:27] <gandoff> wow
# [00:27] <gandoff> NO WAY all your base is 10 years old
# [00:27] <gandoff> omg
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# [00:30] <dgathright> Peanut Butter Jelly Time's 10 year mark will be March 21st, 2012.
# [00:30] <dgathright> Trying to think of old memes than AYB.
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# [00:31] <dgathright> rejected.wmv came from around 2000'ish.
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# [00:31] <snover> paul_irish: halp
# [00:31] <dgathright> "I AM A BANYANA!"
# [00:32] <dgathright> "silly hats only"
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# [00:32] <paul_irish> snover; cant.
# [00:32] <dgathright> Oh man, I love that video
# [00:32] <snover> who the fuuu has ops for #html5?!
# [00:32] <paul_irish> no one
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# [00:32] <paul_irish> \o/
# [00:33] <grantg> #html5 == #reddit
# [00:33] <paul_irish> lolwut
# [00:33] <dgathright> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuOvqeABHvQ
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# [00:39] <dgathright> grantg: Just joined #reddit for the first time. First thing I see, "trif: I eat all my semen". Yup, pretty much like the website.
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# [00:39] * grantg got sucked into there 30 minutes ago
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# [00:43] <frankstallone> CLEAR!
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# [00:43] <frankstallone> We got @Drule back Dr.
# [00:43] <frankstallone> CLEAR!
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# [00:44] <dgathright> New game. Every time Drule leaves & rejoins, you gotta do a shot.
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# [00:44] <frankstallone> I'd be so drunk
# [00:44] <dgathright> drink!
# [00:44] <frankstallone> CLEAR!
# [00:44] <frankstallone> He joins for such a short time
# [00:44] <frankstallone> I wish he'd stay longer
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# [00:44] <frankstallone> We got @Drule back Dr.
# [00:44] <dgathright> drink!
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# [00:44] <frankstallone> CLEAR!
# [00:44] <tw2113> his IRC time is very bipolar
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# [00:45] <frankstallone> We got @Drule back Dr.
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# [00:45] <dgathright> drink!
# [00:45] <frankstallone> CLEAR!
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# [00:45] <dgathright> time to hypothesize what is going on.... hmm....
# [00:45] <frankstallone> Drats! Let's give up Dr.
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# [00:46] <frankstallone> YES!
# [00:46] <frankstallone> no...
# [00:46] <frankstallone> K-Lined - FINISH HIM!!!!
# [00:47] <dgathright> Sigh... Drule, we hardly knew ye.
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# [00:48] <frankstallone> Urban Dictionary: Drule: beyond cool, unnecessarily awesome.
# [00:49] <cheilmann> dgathright: ah l
# [00:49] <cheilmann> l'amour by hertzfeld was even older
# [00:49] <cheilmann> I'd say the oldest meme video is dancing baby though
# [00:49] <cheilmann> or probably
# [00:50] <dgathright> Oooohhh... yeah, the baby cha-cha
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# [00:50] <dgathright> Wikipedia says 1996
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# [00:51] <cheilmann> god that was so shit
# [00:51] <cheilmann> I found an old CD with lots of "fun" videos I downloaded back then
# [00:51] <cheilmann> amazingly hard to find the codecs they were done in on a mac
# [00:51] <cheilmann> indeo video 5
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# [00:52] <cheilmann> at least on Windows you had gspot http://www.headbands.com/gspot/ to check for codecs
# [00:52] <dgathright> Agreed. I owned 3D Studio Max back then, so I remember playing with that baby model hour after hour. was so cool.
# [00:52] <cheilmann> hehe
# [00:52] <cheilmann> teapot :)
# [00:53] <cheilmann> what was the command line renderer again?
# [00:53] <cheilmann> POVRay!
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# [00:53] <slide> How do I add a border to a canvas? I've tried "border: 1px #000000;" but it just doesnt show up
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# [00:54] <tw2113> try adding solid to ti?
# [00:54] <tw2113> it*
# [00:55] <tw2113> solid #000 1px or so
# [00:55] <slide> oh duh
# [00:55] <slide> thanks
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# [01:08] <HAITI> Cheers #html5 =)
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# [01:45] <paul_irish> http://paulirish.com/2011/surefire-dom-element-insertion newww
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# [01:58] <cheilmann_> cheers paul_irish
# [01:58] <cheilmann_> god browsers will never be good
# [01:59] <Trisox> good night all
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# [02:03] <uf0> all IEs should die, we will never move forward if we're stuck in the effin' past
# [02:03] <cheilmann_> very confused by http://www.googleaxis.com/
# [02:03] <cheilmann_> uf0: I will talk about this tomorrow
# [02:04] <cheilmann_> calling it "web euthanasia"
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# [02:28] <paul_irish> cheilmann_: i think doob made it a while ago.
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# [03:00] <Benvie> anyone have a method for targeting css specifically at safari (not chrome)
# [03:00] <Benvie> safari's lack of support for small-caps in web fonts is shitting on my parade
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# [03:12] <paul_irish> Benvie: and chrome supports that?
# [03:13] <Benvie> yeah it's working correctly which surprised me
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# [03:13] <Benvie> Chrome 9
# [03:13] <Benvie> using Myriad Pro Confensed from typekit
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# [03:18] <paul_irish> humph.
# [03:18] <paul_irish> i dont know of any
# [03:19] <Benvie> yeah all the ones I could find don't seem to apply to Safari 5
# [03:19] <Benvie> I guess I could just do a test for font-variant
# [03:20] <Benvie> by comparing widths of an element, cause it'll go to the fallback font and be a different width
# [03:20] <Benvie> relying on js anyway for the font embedding to begin with
# [03:20] <paul_irish> omg.... DHTML Dude. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb263969%28v=VS.85%29.aspx
# [03:20] <Benvie> hahaha wtf is this
# [03:21] <Benvie> a person wrote this
# [03:21] <Benvie> a real person
# [03:22] <Benvie> bam http://dmassy.wordpress.com/
# [03:22] <Benvie> there he is
# [03:22] <Benvie> works on windows embedded, thankfully not touching javascript anymore
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# [03:28] <slide> Is there still no way, even planned, for doing dashed/dotten paths?
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# [03:42] <Benvie> best I could for the moment on targeting safari is relying on modernizr and doing this @media screen and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio:0) { .no-webgl #element { color: red; } }
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# [03:44] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, yo i have no clue what are you talking about
# [03:44] <bot-t> (43 hours 2 mins ago) <nimbupani> tell antonkovalyov wooot! thnxxx
# [03:45] <antonkovalyov> ?tell nimbupani np
# [03:45] <bot-t> antonkovalyov, Okay.
# [03:47] <paul_irish> Benvie: hmm that's not reliable :)
# [03:47] <paul_irish> (saf6 will have webgl)
# [03:47] <paul_irish> Benvie: can you pastie the @font-face stuff you're using? oh nvm its typekit..
# [03:47] <paul_irish> um
# [03:48] <paul_irish> i think you'll have to UA sniff. use cssagent.js
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# [03:54] <antonkovalyov> ?tell nimbupani i want to publish jshint site on thursday, do you think you could help me with css on wednesday?
# [03:54] <bot-t> antonkovalyov, Okay.
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# [03:55] <uf0> paul_irish: I've never used modernizer but I have a question
# [03:55] <paul_irish> shure
# [03:55] <uf0> say I want to use border-radius
# [03:55] <paul_irish> antonkovalyov: today is wednesday
# [03:55] <uf0> currently it works for ff and chrome
# [03:56] <uf0> using modernizer will it work in ie7 and 8?
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# [03:56] <paul_irish> nope.
# [03:56] <paul_irish> modernizr currently only *detects* native support
# [03:56] <uf0> so what's the point of modenizer?
# [03:57] <uf0> what does it do then if I can't apply ie to older browsers
# [03:57] <uf0> i mean apply to IE
# [03:57] <paul_irish> well lets say that you wanted the corners to be rounded for oldIE..
# [03:57] <paul_irish> .no-borderradius .rounded { background: url(rounded.png); }
# [03:58] <paul_irish> so you conditionally use a background image for browsers without native support.
# [03:58] <paul_irish> whereas the rest can do it natively in css.
# [03:58] <uf0> hmm I see.
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# [03:59] <uf0> I might as well used the rounded version for all then, don't you think
# [03:59] <uf0> ?
# [03:59] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, shiiiit
# [03:59] <paul_irish> uf0: whatcha mean
# [03:59] <uf0> I mean, rather than create a conditional
# [03:59] <uf0> knowing rounded.png version will work for all
# [03:59] <antonkovalyov> ?tell nimbupani i just realized that wednesday is today, then thursday morning? :)
# [03:59] <bot-t> antonkovalyov, Okay.
# [04:00] <uf0> then having multiple rules
# [04:00] <uf0> for an older browser
# [04:00] <uf0> but I do understand the idea behind that.
# [04:00] <paul_irish> uf0: but that means you're going to send a 30kb image to all browsers.. even though 60% of them dont need it?
# [04:00] <uf0> good point.
# [04:01] <paul_irish> so that's kinda the idea
# [04:01] <paul_irish> good browsers use the native feature
# [04:01] <paul_irish> older ones.. you provide a less-perfect solution to.
# [04:02] <uf0> right
# [04:02] <paul_irish> css3pie automates the common cases for you
# [04:02] <paul_irish> and that's kinda okay
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# [04:02] <uf0> what do you 'automates' ?
# [04:03] <uf0> what will it 'do' for you
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# [04:03] <paul_irish> css3pie does rounded corners and box shadow and gradients if there isnt native support
# [04:04] <uf0> um... is css3pie part of modenizer or seperate
# [04:04] <uf0> ?
# [04:04] <paul_irish> separate
# [04:04] <paul_irish> it uses VML and some tricky stuff.. sometimes you might want to handle something differently though
# [04:04] <uf0> so css3pie will automatically create a png or gif that's rounded?
# [04:05] <paul_irish> @font-face is another good one.. if there isn't support.. (ff3.0) then you probably want to change font sizes because the fallback font has different size metrics thant he webfont you're loading
# [04:05] <paul_irish> or in the logo of http://html5rocks.com its a white 5 with a grey text-shadow.. in ie6-9, there is no text-shadow support.. so we catch that and make the whole 5 gray
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# [04:07] <uf0> css3pie will automatically create a png or gif that's rounded?
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# [04:07] <Benvie> it creates stuff using vml
# [04:08] <uf0> oh ok, not sure what that is.. but ok
# [04:08] <Benvie> it's kind of like a shitty version of svg
# [04:08] <Benvie> vector graphics, drawn by javascript
# [04:08] <paul_irish> it's black magic, pretty much. also that ^
# [04:09] <uf0> gotcha
# [04:09] <uf0> thx for the input on that so far
# [04:09] <Benvie> so basically it mimics the native browser drawing by doing the drawing with svg
# [04:09] <Benvie> and css3pie does a damn good job of it for the stuff it supports
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# [04:10] <uf0> you know what, @font-face is good but there's one thing I'm not a fan of
# [04:10] <uf0> and this is just my opinion obviously
# [04:10] <uf0> it looks wierd, there's no smoothing
# [04:11] <uf0> and sometimes I find it hard to read
# [04:11] <paul_irish> you're on windows xp?
# [04:11] <Benvie> that depends on a lot of factors, a really lot lot
# [04:11] <uf0> versus a generic font like Arial
# [04:11] <uf0> i'm on Win7
# [04:11] <paul_irish> ah
# [04:11] <uf0> which is the majority
# [04:11] <paul_irish> yeah.. there are a lot of quality issues with some webfonts.
# [04:11] <paul_irish> some are better than others.. its all up to the font itself.. nothing to do with the technology persay
# [04:11] <uf0> that's what I'm no fan of, and I'm hoping they'll improve on that
# [04:12] <uf0> and I know on Macs and it's beautiful and crisp
# [04:12] <uf0> but gotta think about window guys
# [04:12] <uf0> oh I see..
# [04:12] <paul_irish> which browser you talking about
# [04:12] <uf0> IE8
# [04:12] <paul_irish> ff12 and ie9 should look much better than ff3.6
# [04:12] <Benvie> what you really want to mostly do is use fonts that have specifically been rejiggered for the web. Like if you go to http://typekit.com and click on the "paragraph" tag on the bottom right
# [04:12] <uf0> i'm not touching ie9 until it's final
# [04:12] <Benvie> all those have been rekerned and reawesomed for the web
# [04:13] <Benvie> some other ones look ok but those will definitely work
# [04:13] <paul_irish> uf0: check out the same pages in ie9 RC.. they'll look a lot better
# [04:13] <Benvie> er Browse Fonts, then the paragraph tag
# [04:13] <uf0> alright, I'll wait till final is out but if improved on ie9 that's good then
# [04:13] <uf0> will check that out Benvie
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# [04:15] <uf0> curious, if you're on a MAC how do you test on windows?
# [04:15] <uf0> unless you have a physical pc next to you
# [04:15] <uf0> diff story
# [04:16] <Benvie> for your edification on web fonts I suggest these two articles: http://blog.typekit.com/2010/12/17/type-rendering-review-and-fonts-that-render-well/ http://blog.typekit.com/2011/01/26/css-properties-that-affect-type-rendering/
# [04:16] <uf0> like MAC FF vs Win FF
# [04:16] <Benvie> web fonts can look great but it takes some work to make sure
# [04:17] <uf0> cool good stuff
# [04:18] <paul_irish> uf0: i use virtual box with an xp image and a win7 image
# [04:18] <paul_irish> ?g virtualbox
# [04:18] <bot-t> paul_irish, VirtualBox - http://www.virtualbox.org/
# [04:19] <uf0> ?g
# [04:19] <bot-t> uf0, Google - http://www.google.com/
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# [04:19] <uf0> heh cool
# [04:19] <uf0> lol I wondered if the bot did that automatically and it did
# [04:20] <uf0> paul_irish, Benvie thanks
# [04:21] <paul_irish> Benvie: you're brandon from nc?
# [04:21] <Benvie> yeah
# [04:21] <paul_irish> just making sure you're not benv - ben vinegar who also hangs here
# [04:21] <Benvie> nope, just started coming around here
# [04:21] <paul_irish> he's tricked me before.
# [04:21] <paul_irish> cool. :)
# [04:21] <Benvie> ha
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# [05:07] <gandoff> so if you have 100 px of height to work with, and your padding is 10px, border is 10px, you'd have height of 60?
# [05:08] <paul_irish> gandoff: offtopic, brah.
# [05:09] <gandoff> yea, sorry to interrupt the ontopic conversation. .. (?)
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# [05:38] <slide> lol
# [05:38] <slide> gandoff, im pretty sure yes
# [05:39] <jo-erlend> margin isn't part of the box?
# [05:40] <jo-erlend> it's a question for #CSS anyway..
# [05:45] <gandoff> margin isn't, no
# [05:48] <jo-erlend> then... Wouldn't that give you a height of 80?
# [05:49] <jo-erlend> oh, sorry. I misread. But I think borders are on the outside as well, so the point would be the same, I think?
# [05:49] * danheberden|away is now known as danheberden
# [05:50] <jo-erlend> it's very easily tested though.
# [05:53] <gandoff> i'm pretty sure borders are on the inside
# [05:53] <jo-erlend> gandoff, http://jo-erlend.ath.cx/
# [05:53] <jo-erlend> you won't be for long.
# [05:53] <gandoff> not found
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# [05:53] <jo-erlend> pardon?
# [05:53] <gandoff> 404
# [05:55] <jo-erlend> now then?
# [05:57] <gandoff> still
# [05:57] <jo-erlend> so my initial response was wrong. You'd have 100px height.
# [05:58] <jo-erlend> no... Nevermind. I forgot about the padding. :)
# [05:59] <gandoff> ok so..?
# [06:00] <jo-erlend> you would have 80px, as I said before.
# [06:00] <jo-erlend> if you have another look, you'll see it.
# [06:00] <niftylettuce> florence and the machine = aurgasm
# [06:00] <gandoff> i doubt it
# [06:00] <gandoff> border and padding of 10 affect twice
# [06:00] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: you ever listen to Jaga Jazzist?
# [06:00] <jo-erlend> gandoff, doubt? There is no doubt. There is truth. There is evidence.
# [06:00] <paul_irish> niftylettuce: :)
# [06:00] <paul_irish> yah bro
# [06:00] <jo-erlend> gandoff, no, border does not affect it since it's not part of the box.
# [06:00] <gandoff> so border isn't counted toward height?
# [06:01] <gandoff> oh
# [06:01] <gandoff> ok good to know, thanks. someone yesterday told me yes it did
# [06:01] <jo-erlend> gandoff, but this doesn't belong in this channel. This channel is about HTML.
# [06:01] <gandoff> i think maybe nieluj
# [06:01] <gandoff> k
# [06:01] <jo-erlend> padding, border, margin. Padding is part of it. The others are not.
# [06:02] <Benvie> this sounds suspiciously like a "padding, border, and margin walk into a bar..." joke setup
# [06:02] <jo-erlend> :)
# [06:03] <jo-erlend> gandoff, so the lesson is: test your assumptions.
# [06:03] <gandoff> for sure, thanks!
# [06:04] <jo-erlend> copying 1.5TB onto a USB disk is very fun. Watching the progressbar is incredibly entertaining.
# [06:05] <jo-erlend> wrong channel... Sorry :)
# [06:06] <gandoff> yea, OFFTOPIC!!
# [06:06] <gandoff> >:D
# [06:08] <niftylettuce> ?tell niftylettuce do more, focus more
# [06:08] <bot-t> niftylettuce, Okay.
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# [06:10] <jo-erlend> gandoff, ehrm.. I think I may have erred there.
# [06:10] <gandoff> oh?
# [06:11] <paul_irish> niftylettuce: wassa status of the extensionnn
# [06:12] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: I need to throw up the source so you and others can collab, but been burned down with school and contract work today :P
# [06:12] <bot-t> (4 mins 34 secs ago) <niftylettuce> tell niftylettuce do more, focus more
# [06:13] <paul_irish> niftylettuce: cool
# [06:13] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: I'm shooting for friday
# [06:13] <jo-erlend> gandoff, the padding actually expands the box.
# [06:13] <paul_irish> btw.. bot-t protip... /msg bot-t .
# [06:13] <paul_irish> to clear your tells
# [06:13] <gandoff> jo-erlend: yes
# [06:14] <gandoff> width/height are only content area. padding add to that. my question is, does border add to that
# [06:14] <jo-erlend> oh. Right. That wasn't your question. :)
# [06:14] <gandoff> i suppose it must?
# [06:14] <jo-erlend> it doesn't.
# [06:14] <niftylettuce> shake and bank, ty paul
# [06:14] <niftylettuce> shake and bake*
# [06:14] <niftylettuce> i guess it works both ways
# [06:14] <paul_irish> SHAKE N BAKE
# [06:15] <gandoff> if i have 100px to work with, and padding is 10 border is 10, that's 40 taken up there. so i can have a content box size of 60
# [06:15] <gandoff> that is, if i want the max size of the box to be 100px
# [06:15] <jo-erlend> gandoff, why don't we discuss this in #CSS instead?
# [06:15] <gandoff> im banned
# [06:15] * gandoff is now known as key
# [06:15] <key> how about privmsg?
# [06:15] <jo-erlend> sure.
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# [06:16] <niftylettuce> paulirishraps.com
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# [06:17] <adfadfas> damn colloquy fucking sucks
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# [06:19] <niftylettuce> cmon nifty lets do this
# [06:19] <niftylettuce> leeeroooyyy
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# [06:30] <niftylettuce> omg my pasta is so good
# [06:31] <niftylettuce> i need to start a uni recipe site, teach kids how to cook
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# [06:48] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: ever heard the band "Air" ?
# [06:48] <niftylettuce> j.Viewz reminded me
# [06:48] <paul_irish> niftylettuce: :/
# [06:48] <paul_irish> come onnnnnnnnn
# [06:48] <niftylettuce> wha?
# [06:48] <paul_irish> i write a music blog.
# [06:48] <niftylettuce> dumb questions?
# [06:48] <paul_irish> yup.
# [06:48] <paul_irish> :)
# [06:49] <paul_irish> air is exceptional, though. :D
# [06:49] * niftylettuce gets whipped by a hot pink belt
# [06:49] <Brodingo> air modular mix on repeat <--- sleep forever
# [07:01] <niftylettuce> any good storyboard / wireframe online software?
# [07:01] <paul_irish> http://www.delicious.com/paul.irish/wireframes
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# [07:06] <niftylettuce> tyvm
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# [07:32] <niftylettuce> this beats all other aurgasms... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eCnsbz3uO4&NR=1
# [07:32] <niftylettuce> maybe not the vid, but mr sinatra...
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# [07:49] <slide> when drawing text on a canvas how do I specify the alignment/baseline of the text? I think firefox supports textAlign and textBaseline but im not sure if its standard
# [07:50] <slide> and chrome doesnt seem to support it
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# [07:52] <slide> n/m they are properties not functions
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# [09:03] <mr_lou> Hello
# [09:03] <mr_lou> <input type="date">
# [09:04] <mr_lou> Setting a date value with javascript. Is that always yyyy-mm-dd ? Is the yyyy-mm-dd format part of the HTML5 standard for date fields?
# [09:04] <mr_lou> Setting microseconds
# [09:04] <mr_lou> I mean milliseconds, isn't working.
# [09:06] * danheberden is now known as danheberden|away
# [09:06] <mr_lou> But setting a string like 2011-07-07 works
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# [10:49] <mokush__> anybody worked with twitter's @anywhere?
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# [18:14] <Michael> paul_irish, Can you finagle an extra seat at IO? :)
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# [19:00] <mike5w3c> http://www.flickr.com/photos/draket/5449654430/
# [19:00] <mike5w3c> HTML5 logo in Braille
# [19:01] <tw2113> i'm impressed
# [19:01] <cheilmann> I touch and touch and still can't feel shit
# [19:01] <cheilmann> broken
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# [19:05] <snover> mike5w3c: since you’re a w3c person can you talk to freenode staff about getting control of the #html5 channel?
# [19:06] <snover> It’s a problem that there are no ops here right now and since it’s an “official” channel they probably want someone “officially” html5 to claim it
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# [19:09] <tw2113> i think the irish has been trying for awhile
# [19:09] <tw2113> yes, ireland wants to control an IRC room :D
# [19:11] <jetienne> :)
# [19:11] <cheilmann> I can set up an eggdrop on some server.
# [19:12] <cheilmann> oh, but yeah, everybody would have to leave :)
# [19:12] <cheilmann> IRCWAR! Let's party like its 1994
# [19:12] <jetienne> bot war was fun
# [19:12] <jetienne> netsplit to take over channels and all :)
# [19:13] <mike5w3c> snover: I could ask I guess, but I'm not sure the channel really needs ops
# [19:13] <mike5w3c> there are lots of channels with no ops
# [19:13] <jetienne> mike5w3c: is it possible to get both visual + braille on the same ?
# [19:14] <mike5w3c> snover: ones I use at least #whatwg, #webkit
# [19:14] <mike5w3c> jetienne: not sure what you mean
# [19:14] <jetienne> mike5w3c: one with a 5 and with the dots
# [19:15] <mike5w3c> jetienne: maybe. I guess you should ping @ted_drake and ask him
# [19:15] <jetienne> he is the author ?
# [19:15] <mike5w3c> yeah
# [19:15] <jetienne> ok
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# [19:15] <hober> mike5w3c: strictly speaking, #whatwg has ops (paul irish and myself)
# [19:15] <mike5w3c> oh
# [19:16] <mike5w3c> didn't know
# [19:16] <paul_irish> (and hixie). it happened recently
# [19:16] <jetienne> taking back this channel may be simple
# [19:17] <paul_irish> how so
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# [19:17] <jetienne> asking on #freenode
# [19:18] <jetienne> i just did. but you may too, your name may not hurt
# [19:18] <paul_irish> last time i did that, someone else idleing there is like "lol, noob. wait a year and try again"
# [19:18] <jetienne> paul_irish: ok i will bring them :)
# [19:18] <jetienne> paul_irish: you are ok to take ownership of #html5 ?
# [19:18] <paul_irish> yes
# [19:18] <jetienne> ok
# [19:18] <paul_irish> i applied ~6mo ago
# [19:19] <jetienne> a lot of talkings... will keep you uptodate
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# [19:22] <hober> I'm happy to help out
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# [19:26] <miketaylr> http://areweprettyyet.com/4/mainWindow/ would be cooler if it worked in more than 2 browsers >_>
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# [19:28] <daveluke> o wow
# [19:28] <daveluke> i remember when #html5 was like 10 people
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# [19:35] <antonkovalyov> nimbupani, ohai
# [19:35] <nimbupani> there you are antonkovalyov
# [19:35] <antonkovalyov> i am always here
# [19:35] <nimbupani> :))
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# [19:38] <daveluke> is there any free html5 game engine?
# [19:39] <paul_irish> lots of them.
# [19:40] <paul_irish> impact costs money but pretty much the rest are free
# [19:40] <paul_irish> daveluke: https://gist.github.com/768272
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# [19:40] <daveluke> is impact worth buying?
# [19:42] <paul_irish> i think so. but it depends on your budget
# [19:43] <paul_irish> impact is rly good
# [19:43] <daveluke> i can afford $99
# [19:43] <daveluke> if its a good alternative to flash, i'd give it a try i geuss
# [19:43] <daveluke> guess
# [19:45] <paul_irish> do it
# [19:46] <paul_irish> though if you come with flash experience, i'd also look into EaselJS
# [19:46] <paul_irish> which is like.. canvas for flash devs ;)
# [19:46] <daveluke> the pong demonstration did not impress me though
# [19:46] <daveluke> no flash experience
# [19:46] <daveluke> also his german accent did not impress
# [19:46] <daveluke> :-)
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# [19:47] <paul_irish> wassup hater
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# [20:02] <paul_irish> ?g easywebsocket
# [20:02] <paul_irish> omg no bot-t.
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# [20:08] <BrianBlakely> Here's a thought: DAP should create a haptics spec before the hardware hits mainstream
# [20:08] <BrianBlakely> Fuuuu Google Search
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# [20:08] <BrianBlakely> http://www.starlight-webkit.org/CSS/css3-haptics.html
# [20:10] <BrianBlakely> antonkovalyov: Does disqus post to a user's FB stream (if they are logged in via Connect)?
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# [20:12] <BrianBlakely> Hmm, the haptics spec, while existing, is very marginal. Some texture definitions would be nice. It could share syntax with gradients, and accept normal maps.
# [20:12] <antonkovalyov> BrianBlakely, it gives you an option to do so
# [20:12] <antonkovalyov> But it is an opt-in thingy
# [20:13] <BrianBlakely> antonkovalyov: Can an author make it opt-out by default, like is it technically feasible? Also, can one make it so a user can ONLY use FBConnect to login?
# [20:13] <BrianBlakely> We're considering moving all of our comments to disqus, which would equate to at least a few hundred thousand users
# [20:13] <antonkovalyov> 1) Nope, this is against FbC terms and conditions 2) You can limit to registered users but not to FbC only
# [20:14] <BrianBlakely> :/
# [20:14] <BrianBlakely> Re: 1) FB's comments plugin is opt-out, that's a bit unfair
# [20:15] <antonkovalyov> Well FB comments plugin posts Facebook comments on your site
# [20:15] <antonkovalyov> We share your comments on Facebook
# [20:15] <BrianBlakely> Yes!
# [20:15] <antonkovalyov> There is a difference
# [20:15] <BrianBlakely> Wait
# [20:15] <BrianBlakely> No
# [20:15] <antonkovalyov> We might do some nice syncing soon though
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# [20:16] <BrianBlakely> FB Comments can be used just like disqus on a blog, but there is the option for the user to post the comment they made to their stream
# [20:16] <BrianBlakely> With some nice OpenGraph trappings
# [20:18] <antonkovalyov> BrianBlakely, fundamentally, they position their widget as a way to display/create OpenGraph comments on your site
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# [20:37] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, hey when chrome frame will start shipping with google toolbar?
# [20:37] <bot-t> (10 hours 40 mins ago) <nimbupani> tell antonkovalyov yess that would be tonait for me
# [20:38] <antonkovalyov> ?tell nimbupani wat
# [20:38] <bot-t> antonkovalyov, Okay.
# [20:38] <nimbupani> wtf
# [20:38] <bot-t> (5 secs ago) <antonkovalyov> tell nimbupani wat
# [20:42] <paul_irish> antonkovalyov: you ready for publish tomorrow morning?
# [20:42] <BrianBlakely> antonkovalyov: Stop it, that's my idea :P
# [20:42] <BrianBlakely> (Re: Toolbar)
# [20:42] <antonkovalyov> BrianBlakely, i think it is official, no?
# [20:42] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, working with nimbupani on styling but yeah
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# [20:43] <BrianBlakely> antonkovalyov: I didn't know that, since when?
# [20:43] <BrianBlakely> (granted, I didn't look into it)
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# [20:44] <BrianBlakely> Looks like the idea has been around for a while
# [20:44] <antonkovalyov> i dunno somebody from chrome frame team told that on some conference/talk
# [20:44] <antonkovalyov> that's official for me
# [20:44] <BrianBlakely> Indeed
# [20:44] <antonkovalyov> it gives me rights to harass paul_irish
# [20:44] <BrianBlakely> I thought I was ultra-clever, not that the idea *isn't* ultra-clever
# [20:44] <nimbupani> ok stop chatting and start looking at the desgin antonkovalyov!
# [20:45] <antonkovalyov> haha
# [20:46] <antonkovalyov> hey paul_irish go to jshint demo site
# [20:46] <nimbupani> o
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# [20:47] <danielfilho> anyone here have ever needed to set the cursor position on a text field?
# [20:47] <danielfilho> like... I need to print
# [20:47] <danielfilho> ops
# [20:47] <danielfilho> like... I need to show "@domain.com" in a text field, but when he types, the cursor is always before the @
# [20:48] <antonkovalyov> yo paul_irish conditions in norway is very harsh for nimbupani, they are taking her computer away or smth
# [20:48] <antonkovalyov> so hurry up with feedback
# [20:48] <nimbupani> hahaha
# [20:53] <BrianBlakely> antonkovalyov: Is JSHint.com really real now or soon? |cc nimbupani
# [20:53] <nimbupani> sooon
# [20:53] <paul_irish> sooooon
# [20:54] <nimbupani> if paul_irish does what we tell him to
# [20:54] <nimbupani> GET ON IT
# [20:54] <paul_irish> what
# [20:54] <antonkovalyov> BrianBlakely, like tomorrow
# [20:54] <antonkovalyov> if i won't be too lazy
# [20:54] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, FEEDBACK
# [20:54] <BrianBlakely> I rely on webapps to give me direction
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# [20:55] <BrianBlakely> I cannot make my JS pedantic on my own
# [20:55] <paul_irish> at the top of docs: "you are welcome to use jshint here, but it also works well in a build process. It is compatible with Node, Rhino, etc etc
# [20:56] <paul_irish> nimbupani: jshint button needs some supersexy hover state
# [20:56] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, disregard the text
# [20:56] <antonkovalyov> i will change it later today
# [20:56] <antonkovalyov> design feedback needed
# [20:56] <antonkovalyov> since nimbupani is leaving soon
# [20:56] <nimbupani> k
# [20:57] <BrianBlakely> If it isn't using Transforms AND Transitions, it's not 3.0 enough
# [20:57] <nimbupani> anything else?
# [20:57] <antonkovalyov> i'll be back in 15 minutes, you have access to git people :)
# [20:57] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: woooooop W3C detection working
# [20:57] <paul_irish> nimbupani: hover states for top nav links
# [20:57] <paul_irish> that's it
# [20:57] <nimbupani> k
# [20:58] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: should I just CURL to W3C mailing-list search?
# [20:58] <paul_irish> antonkovalyov: "want an option for something else? file a ticket"
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# [20:58] <paul_irish> nimbupani: ithinkso
# [20:58] <nimbupani> okay below options then
# [20:58] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: theres no W3C api is there?
# [20:59] <paul_irish> no
# [20:59] <niftylettuce> so CURL is only option?
# [20:59] <niftylettuce> or JSON perhaps hmm
# [20:59] <paul_irish> nimbupani: and technically the hover area aroudn the options is like.. not all clickable.. and you might also argue that it's too wide
# [21:00] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: what are some w3c lists you subscribe to?
# [21:00] <nimbupani> k i can make it display block
# [21:00] <paul_irish> niftylettuce: www-style www-font public-web-perf
# [21:00] <niftylettuce> tyvm
# [21:00] <jdalton> hot dog! I got an RT from @html5
# [21:01] <paul_irish> :)
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# [21:01] <niftylettuce> going to try to bust this out in the next hour, sitting bored in a Java class
# [21:02] <niftylettuce> new gmail gui is sexy
# [21:02] <niftylettuce> gooDle*
# [21:04] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: did you have a name in mind for the ext?
# [21:04] <niftylettuce> w3c permalinks?
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# [21:13] <BrianBlakely> jdalton: What was the tweet?
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# [21:17] <niftylettuce> opera guys from Norway, woaa!
# [21:19] <nimbupani> wats that niftylettuce?
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# [21:21] <niftylettuce> BrianBlakely: jdalton I answer the question "How does jsPerf work?" -- http://bit.ly/h0uGri
# [21:22] <niftylettuce> nimbupani: you mean about Opera guy from Norway? just saw dstorey is from Oslo
# [21:22] <nimbupani> i am in oslo at the moment too :)))
# [21:23] <niftylettuce> nice :) neat stuff, nifty is a little swiss/dutch himself... but pretty much a mutt!
# [21:23] <nimbupani> awww
# [21:23] <niftylettuce> nimbupani: you have any ideas on what to name this ext? https://github.com/paulirish/lazyweb-requests/issues#issue/23
# [21:23] <BrianBlakely> Why does it seem like Norway is like the SF of Europe?
# [21:24] <BrianBlakely> Is it because of Opera?
# [21:24] <nimbupani> but norway is a country >_>
# [21:25] <niftylettuce> b/c its beautiful
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# [21:25] <niftylettuce> Trondheim ftw
# [21:25] <BrianBlakely> nimbupani: Well, so is California
# [21:25] <nimbupani> ORLY
# [21:25] <BrianBlakely> yarly $_$
# [21:26] <niftylettuce> BrianBlakely: down yonder dem' country folk of Pennsylvania are ftw!
# [21:26] <niftylettuce> BrianBlakely: the competition here is WEAK :) means MORE DOUGH, move to PA! lol
# [21:27] <BrianBlakely> Haha, more than in NYC? Yeah, probably after you subtract cost of living
# [21:27] <nimbupani> i would give an arm and a leg to come to oslo in summer
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# [21:27] <nimbupani> and an arm and a leg to avoid coming to oslo in winter
# [21:27] <BrianBlakely> niftylettuce: Why does jsperf open the JVM?
# [21:28] <BrianBlakely> niftylettuce: Oh, and is there a reason besides "computers suck" that running one test at a time would deliver different results than sequentially running through all of them?
# [21:29] * BrianBlakely is a jsperf addict
# [21:29] * BrianBlakely trolls jQuery tests with vanilla JavaScript revisions
# [21:30] * BrianBlakely …for the greater good?
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# [21:30] <niftylettuce> BrianBlakely: I cannot answer that question to the upmost logic that another addict could
# [21:31] <BrianBlakely> niftylettuce: Sorry, I misinterpreted your statement before
# [21:31] <niftylettuce> niftylettuce: I was just lettin ya know what he had RT'd by #html5
# [21:31] <niftylettuce> lol...
# [21:32] <niftylettuce> BrianBlakely: I was just lettin ya know what he had RT'd by #html5
# [21:32] <BrianBlakely> jdalton: If you want to chime in on my questions above, I would be grateful
# [21:33] <BrianBlakely> niftylettuce: Much obliged, sorry I should probably go to Starbucks again :)
# [21:34] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: user scripts only supported by latest Chromium build?
# [21:34] <niftylettuce> ah nvm, chrome 4+
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# [21:54] <niftylettuce> BrianBlakely: I am a Dunkin Donuts peep myself
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# [22:01] <BrianBlakely> niftylettuce: I needs mah dirty chai lattes (w/ vanilla & soy)
# [22:02] <davidmurdoch> From what I've been reading css transitions are not supported on pseudo elements (:before, :after) yet in webkit. Can anyone confirm or deny?
# [22:03] <niftylettuce> BrianBlakely: soooo dirty :D
# [22:04] <davidmurdoch> editor's draft says it *should* be supported but I can't get it to work.
# [22:05] <BrianBlakely> davidmurdoch: Nothing doing in Chr9 — http://jsfiddle.net/brianblakely/f9HeD/
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# [22:05] <BrianBlakely> Doesn't support :hover either
# [22:05] <BrianBlakely> http://jsfiddle.net/brianblakely/f9HeD/1/
# [22:06] <BrianBlakely> That one works with :hover, but does not transition
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# [22:06] <davidmurdoch> thats what I thought. boo.
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# [22:06] <BrianBlakely> (well, not really working with :hover)
# [22:06] <BrianBlakely> Yeah, ::before and ::after are left behind by all the browsers in one way or another
# [22:07] <rgervais> what are your guys thoughts on SASS? and how long will it take for it to be implemented on CSS itself versus a compiler?
# [22:07] <niftylettuce> SASS ROCKS
# [22:07] <paul_irish> rgervais: its already happening in webkit, brah
# [22:07] <niftylettuce> Zencoding + Sass = bust out projects in 1 hour
# [22:07] <rgervais> I like SASS, I just don't like compiling
# [22:07] <rgervais> I rather it be in CSS itself
# [22:07] <niftylettuce> compass watch !urmom
# [22:07] <BrianBlakely> rgervais: You'll be waiting a year (or two)
# [22:07] <rgervais> paul_irish: webkit as in Safari and Chrome?
# [22:08] <niftylettuce> Chrome Dev Tools <333
# [22:08] <BrianBlakely> rgervais: And then it won't work in IE for another few years after
# [22:08] <rgervais> if it's not IE then it's no use
# [22:08] <rgervais> I'm sorry but that's reality
# [22:08] <rgervais> and trust me I'm dying for it
# [22:08] <davidmurdoch> but but but, IE 9 is modern browser! oh wait.
# [22:08] <rgervais> but will it work in IE8 when it's implemented on CSS itself?
# [22:09] <rgervais> davidmurdoch: according to statistics IE is the most popular browser
# [22:09] <rgervais> IE7 8 combined
# [22:09] <rgervais> which means in 2 years
# [22:09] <rgervais> it'll be IE 7 8 AND 9 with 7 phasing out
# [22:09] <rgervais> makes me mad
# [22:09] <davidmurdoch> cool story, bro!
# [22:09] <davidmurdoch> j/k
# [22:09] <davidmurdoch> :-)
# [22:10] <rgervais> lol ok
# [22:10] <rgervais> BrianBlakely: I hope so, a year isn't bad
# [22:10] <rgervais> but realistically it sounds more like 3 years, maybe I'm wrong here
# [22:10] <BrianBlakely> LESS and SASS are awesome, but I wouldn't use it unless you're extremely comfortable with CSS. I mean, try using that with a third party or even an internal team and your world might fall apart.
# [22:11] <rgervais> BrianBlakely: agreed
# [22:11] <davidmurdoch> BrianBlakely, if you were wondering, -webkit-animation doesn't work on pseudo elements either
# [22:12] <rgervais> and by webkit you guys mean Safari and Chrome right
# [22:12] <BrianBlakely> davidmurdoch: Makes sense. I wonder if Transitions work with other pseudo-elements like for form controls
# [22:12] <rgervais> ?
# [22:12] <BrianBlakely> rgervais: Webkit, Saf, iOS, Android, Blackberry, a few other biggies
# [22:12] <Dorward> rgervais: Among others
# [22:12] <rgervais> Chrome too right?
# [22:12] <BrianBlakely> Oops, I meant "Chrome"
# [22:12] <BrianBlakely> Where I said "Webkit"
# [22:13] <rgervais> ok cool
# [22:13] <BrianBlakely> -_- brain no good today
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# [22:13] <rgervais> i just love the thought of nesting, variables
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# [22:13] <rgervais> and can't wait till CSS has it
# [22:13] <rgervais> I don't see it in css3
# [22:13] <rgervais> maybe css4?
# [22:13] <davidmurdoch> ah, but you CAN animate the opacity of the parent element which works for what I'm doing. yay
# [22:15] <BrianBlakely> Coincidence saves the day ;)
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# [22:19] <Neiluj> somebody with some apache/.htaccess skills can give me a little help ? I got 403 with PUT/DELETE requests :-/
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# [22:20] <Neiluj> BrianBlakely: agreed (about SASS in team...)
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# [22:21] <Neiluj> I moved to Compass recently and it's awesome but I'm some kind of anarchist
# [22:22] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: my team based experience with sass is quite the opposite
# [22:22] <BrianBlakely> chriseppstein: Pray tell?
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# [22:23] <chriseppstein> in fact, sass has made my team _far_ more efficient at styling
# [22:23] <chriseppstein> and in collaboration
# [22:24] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: you're the one who made the claim that it wouldn't work. so maybe you can share your concerns.
# [22:24] <BrianBlakely> hmm, that wasn't really my concern
# [22:24] <BrianBlakely> Yeah, def
# [22:24] <BrianBlakely> Take jQuery — great, powerful tool. Get things done really quick, and it works well.
# [22:25] <BrianBlakely> But it creates people who know jQuery, but don't know JavaScript, or existing JS skills and knowledge my atrophy
# [22:25] <BrianBlakely> may atrophy*
# [22:25] <BrianBlakely> It totally depends on the team
# [22:25] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: ok. that may or may not be a good thing.
# [22:26] <BrianBlakely> Some uses aren't, some very are
# [22:26] <nimbupani> How can using sass atrophy css skills?
# [22:26] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: I think JS frameworks, having the advantage of being a real programming language, can create truly encapsulated solutions
# [22:27] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: but Sass is not quite so neatly confined into an abstraction. So it doesn't share that trend line that jQuery does.
# [22:27] <Neiluj> chriseppstein: yes, people don't see CSS as a "real" programming language
# [22:27] <BrianBlakely> nimbupani: I could see it detaching one from vanilla CSS patterns
# [22:27] <Neiluj> one of the "S" in "CSS" should probably mean "Stupid"
# [22:28] <nimbupani> What chriseppstein sez
# [22:28] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: So Instead Sass and Compass help people learn best practices by saying "just do this" and then when you're ready or you need to, you view the source of them and you see how they work
# [22:28] <chriseppstein> this is why the compass website shows the source of every mixin
# [22:28] <chriseppstein> and the jquery website doesn't show the source :)
# [22:29] <nimbupani> BrianBlakely: As much as html5 boilerplate atrophies skills of front end devs by providing defauls
# [22:29] <BrianBlakely> nimbupani: If you don't know what's going on behind the scenes and just treat it like a black box, then it does
# [22:30] <nimbupani> But its not a blackbox
# [22:30] <BrianBlakely> But jQuery, h5bp, SASS, LESS are all clever and useful technologies
# [22:30] <BrianBlakely> In the right hands
# [22:30] <nimbupani> U use the same properties and more of css
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# [22:30] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: my point is that in sass you can't treat it as a black box. the abstractions are too leaky to allow it. eventually you have to dig in and learn what's going on.
# [22:31] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: But the amount of learning required to follow best practices in CSS is rediculous. People need an easier way of getting up to speed at the beginning.
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# [22:32] <chriseppstein> You still have to understand all the mechanics of css.
# [22:32] <chriseppstein> eventually
# [22:32] <BrianBlakely> chriseppstein: If that's really the case at variable skill levels, then I totally concede. I've just seen way too many devs rot away by basing their knowledge on pre-baked assets
# [22:33] <davidmurdoch> Einstein said "Never memorize something that you can look up". I think what he was implying is that we shouldn't waist any time doing things needlessly - or things that have already been done.
# [22:33] <davidmurdoch> waste*
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# [22:33] <davidmurdoch> :-)
# [22:33] <BrianBlakely> I love that quote davidmurdoch!
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# [22:34] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: maybe the abstractions will be less leaky in an in-browser implementation since it might allow for rules that understand more context about the cascade and the dom inheritance.
# [22:34] <davidmurdoch> For some reason none of my old high school teachers did. haha
# [22:34] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: This is why I hate IDEs
# [22:34] <chriseppstein> They make you stupid with all their "help" and in the long term your slower
# [22:35] <davidmurdoch> speaking of cascading: why can't I have cascading :afters? I want to div:after:before:after:first-letter{}!!! :-)
# [22:35] <BrianBlakely> chriseppstein: Also, CSS will definitely live on for a long time. SASS may become niche or go away.
# [22:35] <BrianBlakely> Think of all those MooTools experts… >_>
# [22:35] <davidmurdoch> chiseppstein: you mean WYSIWYG?
# [22:36] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: I was thinking of Java IDEs
# [22:36] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: blasphemy
# [22:36] <BrianBlakely> hehe
# [22:36] <BrianBlakely> No offense to MooTools experts, of course :)
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# [22:37] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: of all the css preprocessors, Sass has a proven track record of 4 years of active development and a very large user base. I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon. and I'm not planning on leaving the dev team :)
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# [22:39] <BrianBlakely> chriseppstein: That's good! I hope all good technologies have their say. I'm not putting anyone down, BTW.
# [22:39] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: no offense taken :)
# [22:39] <BrianBlakely> The developments in CSS recently are clearly a response to SASS & LESS
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# [22:39] <BrianBlakely> Just like certain developments in JS were a response to jQuery
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# [22:40] <Neiluj> yeah and I don't know if it's a good thing
# [22:40] <chriseppstein> yes. This is a matter of personal pride for me :)
# [22:40] <Neiluj> because it means there will be a "standard" SASS-like CSS
# [22:40] <Neiluj> and the SASS one
# [22:41] <BrianBlakely> Neiluj: It will just mean that precompilers will have to innovate further
# [22:41] <chriseppstein> Neiluj: precompilation isn't going anywhere. Compass and Sass offer a ton of benefit over the enhancements coming in css.
# [22:41] <BrianBlakely> Nothing wrong with that
# [22:41] <chriseppstein> Like built in spriting: http://beta.compass-style.org/help/tutorials/spriting/
# [22:41] <Neiluj> well, could have been great is SASS has been a future polyfill :)
# [22:41] <chriseppstein> you can't do that in a browser :)
# [22:42] <BrianBlakely> Just like jQuery uses native functionality when available, functionality it very well inspired
# [22:42] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: yep. And Nathan and I are committed to working with the chrome team to support their syntax
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# [22:43] <BrianBlakely> chriseppstein: That's great. Do you know PhoneGap?
# [22:43] <Neiluj> wow ! didn't see this spriting feature, that's so niiice!
# [22:43] <chriseppstein> We'll have a compilation mode that targets the new syntax improvements to reduce the over-the-wire xfer
# [22:43] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: I've heard of it. haven't used it
# [22:43] <chriseppstein> Neiluj: :)
# [22:45] <BrianBlakely> chriseppstein: You can make native mobile apps with standards. Their JS APIs to hook into the OS-level functionality mirror the spec. So, when it eventually hits the Webkit distro in iOS or whatev, the PhoneGap wrapper bows out and lets the Webkit take the steering wheel
# [22:45] <BrianBlakely> I really, really like this kind of approach
# [22:45] <chriseppstein> BrianBlakely: yes. me too.
# [22:45] <Neiluj> chriseppstein: I'll use it next week on a new app project, thx !
# [22:46] <chriseppstein> Neiluj: it's beta functionality. please let me know if you find any problems or have suggestions
# [22:47] <Neiluj> yeah sure (btw, didn't have the time to doc the appearance mixin, sorry)
# [22:48] <Neiluj> with a feature like this, compass definitely deserves its "framework" label :)
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# [22:49] <chriseppstein> Neiluj: :)
# [22:49] <rgervais> I still don't like the idea of compiling and in a place where there is maintenance
# [22:49] <rgervais> I rather it be in the CSS itself
# [22:49] <rgervais> that'll be great
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# [22:49] <rgervais> that forces EVERYONE to learn it
# [22:49] <chriseppstein> rgervais: machines. use them to do your bidding
# [22:50] <rgervais> lost you there? what do you mean
# [22:50] <rgervais> chriseppstein:
# [22:50] <chriseppstein> the history of software is using machines to help us build more software
# [22:51] <rgervais> I see
# [22:51] <rgervais> the idea of CSS3 or 4 having variables, mixines, etc. is better though no?
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# [22:51] <rgervais> inspired by SASS obviously
# [22:51] <chriseppstein> separating your inputs from your outputs and using a machine to transform them frees you from production constraints
# [22:52] <chriseppstein> rgervais: right. but import will still be an extra http request
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# [22:52] <chriseppstein> and you still need compression
# [22:52] <rgervais> ok but i'm not talking about import
# [22:52] <rgervais> i'm talking about variables, nesting, mixins
# [22:53] <chriseppstein> rgervais: sure. it's all related tho.
# [22:53] <rgervais> yea related of course
# [22:53] <Neiluj> how would we see the compiled result with a native support of mixins ?
# [22:53] <Neiluj> and other features of course
# [22:53] <chriseppstein> a basic preprocessing capability is critical in any production-quality website
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# [22:54] <rgervais> hmm..
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# [22:57] <daleharvey> ugh, cant decide whether to go to jspubmeetup
# [22:57] <daleharvey> the weather sucks
# [22:58] <rgervais> alright, well lets see what happens
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# [23:17] <Neiluj> nobody for my RESTful Apache problem? :(
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# [23:20] <MrWax> is there a good template skelet html5 .html file anywhere where i can best start on when i am coding a design?
# [23:21] <Neiluj> MrWax: you mean something like http://html5boilerplate.com/ ?
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# [23:23] <Neiluj> faster > http://initializr.com/ ?
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# [23:30] <andrewjbaker_> Hi all. Lookin' for some FPS stats if anyone could oblige. HTML5 canvas 2.5D landscape renderer's gone real-time this evening. http://fleetingfantasy.com/ I get about 11fps on my 2GHz laptop. What do you get? WARNING: CPU-intensive; save your work! ;-)
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# [23:33] <MrWax> Neiluj: thanks yea i forgot it but i thikn this is still the best one
# [23:33] <Neiluj> the best and only one ;)
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# [23:43] <MrWax> do i have to close <a>ssa</a> in html5?
# [23:45] <MrWax> I see the boilerplate stylesheet refers to style.css?v=2
# [23:45] <MrWax> What does the v=2 refers to? i dont see it in that file
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# Session Close: Fri Feb 18 00:00:00 2011

The end :)