/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-04-01 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Apr 01 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:11] <tw2113> i think i have to blame modernizr for firefox4 crashing on my desktop
# [00:11] <paul_irish> orly
# [00:11] <tw2113> yup, sad to say
# [00:11] <paulrouget> tw2113: about:crashes, copy past the last link, and send it to me
# [00:11] <paulrouget> tw2113: you should blame Firefox, not modernizr :)
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# [00:13] <tw2113> they just don't get along in that environment
# [00:13] <paul_irish> what happened
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# [00:14] <tw2113> from command line output, this error: ###!!! ABORT: X_FreeGC: BadGC (invalid GC parameter); 4 requests ago: file nsX11ErrorHandler.cpp, line 190
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# [00:16] <tw2113> working on the about:crashes part
# [00:19] <tw2113> hopefully a screenshot will be enough paulrouget https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Public/firefoxcrashreport.png?w=943c1b8c
# [00:20] <tw2113> looks like others have had the same issues
# [00:20] <paulrouget> tw2113: 403
# [00:21] <paulrouget> tw2113: a simple click on the very first link in about crashes should bring you to crash-stats.mozilla.com
# [00:21] <tw2113> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3534225/firefoxcrashreport.png
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# [00:21] <paulrouget> tw2113: can you drop here the id of this log?
# [00:22] <tw2113> i hope this is the right one d2d5c584-839a-4466-9230-06b5c2110331
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# [00:24] <paulrouget> tw2113: oh I see
# [00:24] <paulrouget> paul_irish: ping?
# [00:24] <paulrouget> paul_irish: do you open a WebGL context in modernizr?
# [00:24] <paulrouget> tw2113: do you use the latest version of modernizr?
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# [00:24] <tw2113> 1.6
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# [00:25] <tw2113> i can update :D
# [00:25] <paulrouget> tw2113: please do
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# [00:26] <paul_irish> update!
# [00:26] <tw2113> yay! it didn't crash
# [00:26] <paul_irish> paulrouget: yeah i dont open a webgl context anymore in 1.7
# [00:26] <paulrouget> tw2113: ^ that was the problem
# [00:26] <tw2113> thanks you two paul's
# [00:26] <paul_irish> also apparently chrome is changing to also reveal the WebGLRenderer global even if the GPU is blacklisted
# [00:27] <paul_irish> similar to what we found with FF
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# [00:27] <paul_irish> i have no idea why that makes sense.
# [00:27] <paulrouget> paul_irish: it's a nightmare. We can't "test" WebGL when the browser starts (or even later)
# [00:27] <paulrouget> paul_irish: we can only know if webgl is available or not once the Context is created
# [00:27] <paulrouget> sometimes
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# [00:28] <paul_irish> heh right
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# [00:28] * tw2113 makes a custom build
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# [00:28] <tw2113> sadly i won't be using too much of the js stuff most of the time especially with WordPress themes
# [00:29] <paul_irish> and gman@ was telling me that its possible a context of 100x100 may succeed but a 1000x1000 one won't
# [00:32] <zewt> trying to embed opengl in windows apps sure is a lot of fun, heh
# [00:32] <zewt> (for some value of "fun")
# [00:35] <tw2113> there updated my git starter theme repo :D
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# [01:56] <grantg> paul_irish: I added a one-liner that forces webkit browsers to render my emulator pages withot scaling.
# [01:56] <grantg> For instance http://grantgalitz.org/SuperMarioBros/
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# [01:56] <grantg> open it in chrome and see there's no scaling
# [01:56] <grantg> open it in chrome and it's fullscreen
# [01:57] <grantg> It's a PHP quickie since chrome is unbearable with scaling.
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# [01:59] <grantg> a.k.a. a downgraded experience for chrome users. :(
# [02:01] <grantg> paul_irish: Notice frameskip is occurring even when your CPU load is around 40%
# [02:02] <grantg> because it finishes "on time" when the frames are not being blitted
# [02:02] <paulrouget> grantg: you really don't want to write an article about your work?
# [02:02] <grantg> and "late" when drawn
# [02:02] <grantg> paulrouget: ok ok, I'll do an article
# [02:03] <grantg> I just don't want to make one on the order of Imran's
# [02:03] <paulrouget> grantg: great :) What's you email?
# [02:03] <grantg> oh, paulrouget, I ran a test on mobile safari
# [02:03] <grantg> putImageData at < 1fps
# [02:04] <grantg> http://grantgalitz.org/canvastestcase.html
# [02:04] <paulrouget> I'm testing right now on Fennec (Firefox Mobile) - not very good
# [02:04] <grantg> heh
# [02:04] <grantg> funny because it's fullspeed on my mac
# [02:04] <paulrouget> grantg: optimizeSpeed maybe?
# [02:04] <grantg> paul_rouget: -moz-crisp-edges bro
# [02:04] <grantg> I wish there was a -webkit-crisp-edges
# [02:05] <grantg> fennec doesn't do -moz-crisp-edges?
# [02:05] <paulrouget> grantg: crisp-edges === optimizeSpeed
# [02:05] <grantg> It should show up as nearest-neighbor
# [02:05] <paulrouget> grantg: (afaik)
# [02:05] <grantg> paulrouget: not necessarily
# [02:05] <paulrouget> oh
# [02:06] <grantg> optimizeSpeed is a "recommendation" for nearest-neighbor
# [02:06] <paulrouget> ah, I'm talking about Gecko :)
# [02:06] <grantg> -moz-crisp-edges is "you better render this as nearest-neighbor"
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# [02:06] <paulrouget> "Currently optimizeSpeed and -moz-crisp-edges are equal, both result in nearest neighbor resampling."
# [02:06] <grantg> chrome sees optimizeSpeed but ignores it and does bilinear. <_<
# [02:06] <grantg> paulrouget: Maybe so in firefox
# [02:07] <grantg> but not with webkit
# [02:07] <grantg> It seems to only work on chrome for <img>
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# [02:07] <grantg> and then falls back to bilinear after a second
# [02:07] <grantg> so it stays nearest-neighbor for a short time on webkit
# [02:08] <grantg> optimizeSpeed is a "recommendation" for the browser to do nn, and some browsers very well take that queue to do nn while other don't
# [02:08] <grantg> which is why it's unpredictable on webkit
# [02:09] <paul_irish> you filed a ticket on that, yeah?
# [02:09] <grantg> and why I use -moz-crisp-edges and I even have -webkit-crisp-edges just in case webkit implements its own
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# [02:09] <grantg> paul_irish: Someone did a bug report on that in 2010
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# [02:09] <paul_irish> kk
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# [02:09] <grantg> I added a comment to the webkit bug
# [02:09] <grantg> it's been open for a long time actually
# [02:09] <grantg> the bug
# [02:09] <zewt> well if eg. rendering is GPU-accelerated and bilinear is free then it'd make sense for a speed-first hint to not go all the way to nearest neighbor
# [02:09] <grantg> I'll find it again
# [02:09] <zewt> but ... it's clearly not. heh
# [02:10] <zewt> (accelerated)
# [02:10] <grantg> zewt: Which is why I "raeged" at chrome
# [02:10] <grantg> chrome "Y U NO do nn on canvas when you should?"
# [02:11] <grantg> gtg
# [02:11] <grantg> brb
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# [03:11] <grantg> back
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# [03:15] <paulrouget> grantg: re
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# [03:58] * grantg wonders why no one is talking?
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# [04:01] <grantg> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/mar/31/kenneth-clarke-privatised-birmingham-prison
# [04:01] <grantg> death race IRL
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# [04:24] <paul_irish> HTML 5 Gradient http://paulirish.com/i/d110.png
# [04:24] <themiddleman> lol
# [04:24] <nimbupani> html5 sapiens
# [04:25] <paul_irish> "Technically, CSS 3 is not part of the HTML 5 specification. But this component can be extensively leveraged to provide for a better, richer user experience. "
# [04:25] <paul_irish> okay not terrible.
# [04:26] <paul_irish> "HTML 5 introduces embeddable audio and video elements with built-in support for CODECS. The API provides support which allows the user to control playbacks from within the web application using traditional start, pause, and end controls."
# [04:26] <paul_irish> sigh.
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# [04:34] <zewt> always something of a red flag when people randomly CAPITALIZE words
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# [04:49] <kennyluck> Is there any damage if CSS3 is included in the HTML5 stack?
# [04:50] <kennyluck> Some people I know don't like the fact when I talk about CSS3 in HTML5 events, I don't quite know why.
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# [05:01] <shichuan> kennyluck: i think it's ok to talk abt ccs3 at html5 events
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# [05:07] <zewt> heh, it's sort of funny when simple, little cosmetic fixes do as much for perceived responsiveness as major engine improvements
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# [05:07] <zewt> looks like ff4 got rid of the fade-in when you hover over a tab that ff3.6 had, which makes the tab bar just feel so much more responsive
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# [05:20] * ippa just created http://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/gg1or/web_developer_meme/ ... true no? :]
# [05:21] <paul_irish> :|
# [05:22] <zewt> . .
# [05:23] <ippa> haha
# [05:23] <ippa> .. how it feels with every new project :o
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# [05:26] <retlehs> related: https://twitter.com/#!/paul_irish/status/9849498804
# [05:26] <socialhapy> http://bit.ly/f2aenY @paul_irish: funny how many good domain names we all own and let lie dormant. wish there was a better way to expose our inventories and inspire.
# [05:27] <paul_irish> ^^
# [05:27] <tw2113> thats why i finally used cynicalchicken.net, i didn't want it laying waste
# [05:27] <zewt> haha
# [05:28] <zewt> i got a mental image of a cynical chicken laying waste to a city
# [05:28] <zewt> <3
# [05:28] <tw2113> glad i could muck up the mind a bit more.
# [05:29] <zewt> heh ... a domain-exchange site
# [05:29] <zewt> list your unused domains, offer a domain to someone else in trade for one of theirs :P
# [05:30] <tw2113> powered by html5!
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# [05:31] <zewt> if only that could be automated
# [05:32] <tw2113> html6 then
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# [06:37] <uf0> so FF4 is nice and all that
# [06:37] <uf0> but it fuckin' freezes too much
# [06:37] <uf0> step your game up
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# [06:43] <uf0> let me start disabling add ons
# [06:43] <uf0> see if that helps
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# [08:44] <Chib> does anyone here know if you can disable the html5 form validation in ff4? (:
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# [15:40] <daleharvey> does anyone have suggestions for generating documentation from javascript?
# [15:40] <bot-t> (46 hours 30 mins ago) <BrianBlakely> tell daleharvey How's the scroll quest coming?
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# [17:07] <diamonds> ff 3.6 (winxp) is requesting my audio src. over and over again...
# [17:07] <diamonds> y this
# [17:07] <diamonds> I set preload I think
# [17:07] <diamonds> I'll try removing it
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# [17:20] <diamonds> wait a second...
# [17:20] <diamonds> http://i.imgur.com/pyCg6.png
# [17:20] <diamonds> it appears to be chunking it in teeny tiny bits!
# [17:20] <diamonds> what the heck is going on here
# [17:21] <diamonds> it's an ogg file
# [17:21] <diamonds> ff4 splits it into... 2 parts
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# [17:22] <diamonds> on mac
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# [17:55] <grantg> hey, should I use GCJ to compile Java to a native binary rather than have it done through JIT in a JVM?
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# [17:57] <grantg> More importantly has someone even used GCJ to get Java apps on iOS?
# [17:58] <grantg> the first question was a perf question
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# [17:58] <grantg> the second was an iOS compat question. :P
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# [18:00] <grantg> nevermind
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# [18:00] * grantg searched google
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# [18:16] <zewt> diamonds: looks like a really poorly-tuned buffering mechanism ... hopefully FF4 is better about that
# [18:17] <diamonds> there must be some header I can send to specify the chunk sizes or something....
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# [18:22] <Zeddy> how do i force this: navigator.geolocation.getCurrentPosition(show_map); to use strictly GPS and fail if no gps is found?
# [18:22] <Zeddy> or is it not possible?
# [18:23] <paul_irish> not possible.
# [18:23] <Zeddy> i tested it on my htc desire hd(android) dolphin browser (default one doesn't support html5 at all?) and it didn't even try to get the location from the gps
# [18:23] <Zeddy> really?
# [18:23] <paul_irish> but look at the options object you can pass to that method
# [18:23] <paul_irish> enableHighAccuracy:true or whatever
# [18:23] <Zeddy> oh
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# [18:26] <Zeddy> ok, i got it using the GPS, but it gives me the wrong coordinates
# [18:26] <Zeddy> 50 meters wrong actually
# [18:27] <diamonds> how accurate is gps typically? just curious.
# [18:28] <zewt> that's normal enough in some cases--check the accuracy attribute?
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# [18:28] <zewt> depends on how many satellites you have LOS to, afaik, and typically very inaccurate indoors
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# [18:30] <Zeddy> but can't i force it to get atleast 3 satellites?
# [18:30] <Zeddy> the current coordinates is fetched within 1 second, no way it finds 3 satellites in that time
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# [18:30] <Zeddy> diamonds, when i was developing this app with Qt the largest error was around 5 meters
# [18:30] <Zeddy> not 50 :p
# [18:31] <Zeddy> that cos i could tell it to do nothing untill 4 satellites were used to calculate the location
# [18:31] <Zeddy> but, isn't this the best i can do? avigator.geolocation.getCurrentPosition(show_map,show_map, {timeout: 50000, enableHighAccuracy: true, maximumAge:0});
# [18:31] <Zeddy> n+
# [18:31] <Jackneill> can you tell me the better book for learn html5 at all?
# [18:31] <zewt> if you say enableHighAccuracy it should wait until it syncs more satellites before giving a response, but it may not actually work in that browser
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# [18:32] <zewt> first thing to do is check position.accuracy and see if it's actually correctly reporting the inaccuracy
# [18:32] <Zeddy> oh.. why is it that none of the html5 examples found online work in the default android browser running on their flagship device?
# [18:32] <zewt> if it doesn't even know it's wrong, that would hint at the underlying problem (and may be hard for you to work around)
# [18:32] <Michael> With a proof-of-concept app I did, the accuracy was a matter of a few meters or less
# [18:33] <Zeddy> position accuracy: 2409
# [18:33] <Michael> via what zewt said - using the enableHighAccuracy flag
# [18:34] <zewt> if it does (if accuracy is a high value), then you can try, as a workaround, retrying every few seconds and seeing if the accuracy value decreases
# [18:34] <Zeddy> this is what i have Michael: navigator.geolocation.getCurrentPosition(show_map,show_map, {timeout: 50000, enableHighAccuracy: true, maximumAge:0});
# [18:34] <Zeddy> isn't that correct?
# [18:34] <Michael> I use watchPosition personally
# [18:34] <Michael> I don't know if that yields better results or not
# [18:35] <paul_irish> it does
# [18:35] <Michael> What it does do with mobile devices is keep the GPS on
# [18:35] <paul_irish> but best with a 10s timeout
# [18:35] <zewt> my guess would be whatever browser you're in doesn't fully implement enableHighAccuracy, and doesn't defer results until the GPS is synced enough to give high-accuracy results (or as close as it can get at the user's location)
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# [18:36] <Michael> trackerId = gps.watchPosition(successcallback, errorCallback, { enableHighAccuracy: true, maximumAge: 5000})
# [18:36] <Michael> (gps = navigator.geoLocation)
# [18:36] <Michael> geolocation
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# [18:37] <Michael> If you put getCurrentPosition() on a timer then you cause the phone to enable/disable gps constantly and it'll kill the battery
# [18:37] <diamonds> heh... that's kind of a funny trick
# [18:37] <Michael> lol
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# [18:37] <diamonds> facebook already does that to my ipod touch :(
# [18:37] <zewt> true, that implies a one-off so the browser is likely to turn the GPS off again
# [18:37] <diamonds> when iOS 4 came out, the batteries ran out 2-4x as fast
# [18:38] <Michael> Anyway.. if you're doing constant tracking you pretty much need to use watchPosition from my understanding
# [18:38] <zewt> though it should wait for a timeout before turning the GPS back off again
# [18:38] <Michael> It does but you don't know what the timeout is
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# [18:38] <tw2113> lols http://www.html11.org/
# [18:39] <Zeddy> tested watchPosition, same accuracy
# [18:39] <Michael> With the enableHighAccuracy flag?
# [18:39] <zewt> but, does it return higher accuracy results if you keep watching for a little while?
# [18:40] <Zeddy> btw, why does html5 not work in androids default browser? is my phone broke or something?
# [18:40] <Michael> We tested on a few different droids and iPhone 1 & 2
# [18:40] <Michael> and they were all pretty accurate
# [18:40] <Zeddy> htc desire hd
# [18:40] <Zeddy> should work imo
# [18:40] <zewt> (i'm not liking the name "accuracy" of that attribute--it's confusing that saying "higher accuracy" and "lower accuracy [attribute]" mean the same thing, heh)
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# [18:40] <Michael> We did evo, myTouch 4g
# [18:41] <zewt> Michael: note that he said he's using some third-party browser, I think
# [18:41] <Michael> oh
# [18:41] <Zeddy> lol wtf, i had javascript turned off, i hope thats not by default
# [18:41] <Michael> :P
# [18:43] <Zeddy> ok, but the default browser gives me the same coordinates :o
# [18:45] <zewt> are you indoors? heh
# [18:45] <zewt> that's not an uncommon accuracy from a GPS when indoors
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# [18:47] <Zeddy> zewt, im indoors but next to a window, and seeing as my app needs to function pretty accurately in the window of a bus i think this is a good test environment :p
# [18:48] <zewt> that's still a pretty likely result in that environment--load a native app (google maps) and see what it gives
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# [18:49] <zewt> if it gives a result immediately after turning on the GPS, with no delay to find satellites, that suggests something's wrong, though
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# [18:53] <Zeddy> it does give it immediately
# [18:53] <Zeddy> this is the code: http://pastie.org/1744342 , tested it on androids default browser, outside, after emptying geolocation info from browser cache
# [18:54] <Zeddy> and it still gives the same result over and over again
# [18:54] <Zeddy> and the same accuracy
# [18:54] <zewt> again, have you tried in a native application?
# [18:54] <Zeddy> i have used the native car navigation and its just as precise as my normal GPS device i have mounted in my car
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# [18:55] <zewt> ... but have you tried it right now, where you're sitting?
# [18:55] <Zeddy> as i said, i was just outside testing this :P
# [18:55] <Zeddy> but i'll try it from here
# [18:55] <zewt> and have you checked to see if watchPosition returns more accurate results if you wait a while?
# [18:57] <Zeddy> well when i click the button once, and then wait 10 seconds and click it again, it alerts the same result twice
# [18:58] <zewt> i'm not sure; at that point I'd be thinking about building the browser myself and instrumenting the geolocation API
# [18:58] <zewt> see what's actually happening
# [18:58] <zewt> that's a pain, so someone else may have more suggestions
# [18:59] <Zeddy> well i could use phonegap, to gain access to native gps functionality, but i'd rather use a html5 based approach
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# [19:00] <Zeddy> but yeah, i noticed that its been searching for GPS satellites for 2 minutes now when using the car navigation software :p
# [19:00] <Zeddy> but i'd rather like the html5 to do the same, keep on looking untill the result is precise
# [19:01] <zewt> presumably that's what it's doing
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# [19:01] <zewt> i bet if it finds a satellite while you have a watchPosition registered, it'll call your callback with the new info
# [19:02] <zewt> it's questionable that it's calling it in the first place with a low-accuracy result, but at least it's correctly setting the accuracy attribute
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# [19:09] <Zeddy> why doesn't watchPosition work with a timer or something?
# [19:09] <Zeddy> so that the success callback would be launched every x seconds?
# [19:09] <Zeddy> or does watchPosition continuously watch and update the coordinates
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# [19:12] <Zeddy> because this code: http://pastie.org/1744342 causes some very abnormal behavior, for each time i've clicked the button, it runs showLocation(position), so if i have clicked it 5 times, and click it again, the showLocation(position) is ran 6 times and i get 6 alerts
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# [19:26] <Zeddy> Hey
# [19:27] <Zeddy> i just discovered something
# [19:27] <Zeddy> i printed the timestamp aswell
# [19:27] <Zeddy> and its not chaning
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# [19:28] <Zeddy> and thats with these options: var options = {timeout:60000,enableHighAccuracy:true,maximumAge:1};
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# [19:38] <Zeddy> i've been trying lots of available demos of the geo thing, everytime it directly shows the same coordinates with the same accuracy 2409 meters
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# [19:42] <zewt> note that calling watchPosition multiple times (and never calling clearWatch) is using that API incorrectly
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# [19:47] <Zeddy> so i should do clearWatch after each success call?
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# [19:48] <zewt> what the? ff4 isn't showing the onbeforeunload message at all
# [19:49] <zewt> always shows a generic message
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# [19:54] <Zeddy> uh wtf
# [19:54] <Zeddy> "The only difference is that your success callback will be called every time the device detects that its location has changed."
# [19:54] <Zeddy> no it doesn't :p
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# [20:00] <Zeddy> yay!
# [20:00] <Zeddy> i think i gots it working
# [20:02] <Zeddy> yup, got it down to 1 meters precision, however the accuracy says 45?
# [20:03] <zewt> the device may not know exactly how accurate it is
# [20:03] <Zeddy> oh wait
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# [20:04] <Zeddy> now i also realised how the watchPosition works, its alerted like 30 times within 10 seconds
# [20:04] <Zeddy> and the accuracy drops with a few meters for every alert
# [20:04] <dilvie> hi
# [20:05] <Zeddy> im loving this.
# [20:05] <Zeddy> i just had to take my dogs and go for a walk with the device in my pocket and got these awesome results
# [20:05] <Zeddy> amazing.
# [20:05] <Zeddy> 15 meters was the most accurate it got
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# [21:09] <danielfilho> o'hai :D
# [21:13] <moo-_-> lali ho
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The end :)