/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-04-07 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 07 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #html5
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6. # [00:05] <grantg> nimbupani: I feel like I should post this on firstworldproblems
7. # [00:05] <grantg> http://www.reddit.com/r/firstworldproblems/
8. # [00:05] <grantg> :P
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10. # [00:06] <nimbupani> haha
11. # [00:06] <nimbupani> i created a smaller usercase grantg http://jsfiddle.net/RtD96/2/
12. # [00:06] <nimbupani> is definitely a bug
13. # [00:07] <grantg> nice
14. # [00:07] <grantg> yup
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16. # [00:08] <grantg> should happen when you have scrollbars on a div too
17. # [00:08] <grantg> the scrollbars will be bugged just like opacity
18. # [00:08] <grantg> *just like opacity on flash
19. # [00:09] <grantg> I'm wondering how this bug got through the beta phase of multiple opera versions...
20. # [00:09] <grantg> And I mean MANY
21. # [00:11] <grantg> nimbupani: Someone needs to add this bug to http://www.positioniseverything.net/op-omnibus.html
22. # [00:11] <grantg> That's how old this bug seems
23. # [00:11] <nimbupani> grantg: it only happens on a mac :)
24. # [00:11] <grantg> nimbupani: seems like it too
25. # [00:12] <grantg> linux people aren't seeing the bug
26. # [00:12] <nimbupani> its something to do with windowed and windowless plugin
27. # [00:12] <nimbupani> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Gecko_Plugin_API_Reference/Drawing_and_Event_Handling#Mac OS
28. # [00:13] <grantg> definitely composited separately and below the div it seems
29. # [00:13] <grantg> like the plugin is opaque completely, and lies below the div
30. # [00:13] <grantg> on the compositing chain
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32. # [00:16] <grantg> nimbupani: Don't worry, firefox 4 has glitches with HW acceleration on mac.
33. # [00:16] <grantg> So Opera isn't forever alone with the gfx glitches on OSX
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35. # [00:17] <grantg> nimbupani: Opera ain
36. # [00:17] <grantg> nimbupani: Opera ain't got shit on http://i.imgur.com/T8hY6.png
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40. # [00:18] <nimbupani> hahaha
41. # [00:19] <nimbupani> grantg: woah thats weird.
42. # [00:19] <grantg> heh
43. # [00:19] <grantg> glitched right on google news. :/
44. # [00:19] <nimbupani> :)
45. # [00:19] <nimbupani> some bugs just slip through
46. # [00:19] <nimbupani> coz nobody is following them and is not important enough.
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48. # [00:20] <grantg> nimbupani: Though a complete trashing of the page is something that should be important though. :P
49. # [00:20] <nimbupani> :)
50. # [00:21] <grantg> nimbupani: Notice firefox 4 glitches that page on mac with HW acceleration
51. # [00:22] <grantg> look towards the top of the content div while the opacity is being animated
52. # [00:22] <grantg> http://imgur.com/T4AK6
53. # [00:22] <grantg> deja vu
54. # [00:22] <nimbupani> ah i see.
55. # [00:22] <nimbupani> haha
56. # [00:22] <nimbupani> :)
57. # [00:22] <grantg> ghost rendering
58. # [00:23] <grantg> from opacity -> opacity
59. # [00:23] <grantg> double opacity = double rainbow
60. # [00:23] <nimbupani> i guess these are still early days of hw acc
61. # [00:23] <nimbupani> haha
62. # [00:23] <grantg> on firefox 4 mac with HW acceleration
63. # [00:24] <grantg> heh
64. # [00:24] <grantg> double rainbow = let's ship this thing
65. # [00:24] <grantg> regressions. O_O
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69. # [00:39] <sameh_ammar> Hi all can anyone help me how i use webgl to render 3d ?
70. # [00:43] <danbeam> sameh_ammar: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/WebGL/Getting_started_with_WebGL
71. # [00:43] <danbeam> sameh_ammar: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/WebGL
72. # [00:44] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
73. # [00:46] <grantg> shit, now people probably want me to blog about hitting the HW acceleration glitches.
74. # [00:46] <paul_irish> YES PLEASE
75. # [00:46] * grantg says opacity == glitches
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77. # [00:47] <nimbupani> :)
78. # [00:47] <paul_irish> grantg: http://code.google.com/p/html5rocks/wiki/AudioLibraries :)
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80. # [00:47] <grantg> heh
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85. # [00:50] <grantg> brb
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93. # [01:09] <fealls> did anyone have a funky experience with websockets handshaking? it's failing like 50% of the times... is there a suggested way of doing it?
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105. # [01:41] <Jonz> so.. I've got my script links in the very bottom of my page, just above the </body>, and when I run pagespeed, I get this warning:
106. # [01:41] <Jonz> Defer parsing of JavaScript
107. # [01:41] <Jonz> 310.3KiB of JavaScript is parsed during initial page load. Defer parsing JavaScript to reduce blocking of page rendering.
108. # [01:41] <Jonz> is that basically a red herring, or.. should I move my scripts down even farther? or load them asynchronously...
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142. # [02:55] <grantg> paul_irish: I'm testing XAudioJS on a fork of the JS GBC emulator. :)
143. # [02:55] <grantg> So far mozAudio works
144. # [02:55] <grantg> I'm fixing the remaining bugs
145. # [02:55] <grantg> to get webAudio and the data uri fallback working
146. # [02:55] <grantg> http://www.grantgalitz.org/test/gameboy/
147. # [02:56] <grantg> yo dawg, the code is currently at http://www.grantgalitz.org/test/gameboy/js/other/XAudioServer.js
148. # [02:56] <grantg> paul_irish; To show you it exists. :P
149. # [02:56] <paul_irish> boom
150. # [02:57] <tw2113> either of you know if a div can have a lower z-index than <body> and appear below a bg attached to the body?
151. # [02:57] <tw2113> or is body kind of the bottom of the stack for good?
152. # [02:59] <grantg> paul_irish: I'm trying to fix the bugs right now, should be done by tonight for a git upload.
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155. # [03:04] <grantg> I need to re-add the audio resampler for web audio
156. # [03:04] <grantg> which resamples the audio in real-time for compat with web audio for when sample rate in != hardware sample rate detected by web audio
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158. # [03:07] <grantg> paul_irish: I'll have to document how to initialize and run the XAudioServer object
159. # [03:07] <grantg> It does all the behind-the-scenes magic for you
160. # [03:08] <grantg> and wraps mozAudio, web audio, and even the WAV PCM data uri fallback in it
161. # [03:08] <grantg> all you need to do is access its write function, initialize it properly, and provide an audio underflow callback
162. # [03:10] <grantg> so you don't need to know squat about moz audio or web audio to output audio in your browser. :)
163. # [03:10] <grantg> all you need to know is the XAudioServer API.
164. # [03:14] * danbeam is now known as _|danbeam|_|afk|
165. # [03:18] <gde33> html5 made rss that much more interesting :D
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168. # [03:19] <tw2113> gde33 html5 has that effect
169. # [03:19] <tw2113> shit is interesting again
170. # [03:19] <gde33> I just love the text based feed items :D
171. # [03:19] <grantg> WAV PCM data uri method now working
172. # [03:20] <grantg> web audio bugginess is left to quash
173. # [03:20] <gde33> it doesn't take a very big video to break the data uri :P
174. # [03:20] <gde33> just before that it will freeze up the browser
175. # [03:21] <grantg> brb
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177. # [03:21] <gde33> with rssowl I can use many websites at the same time. Some one should call mozilla.
178. # [03:23] <tw2113> i remember that
179. # [03:23] <tw2113> it was my first rss reader back in like 2004/2005 when i first heard about rss and xml
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185. # [03:39] <techrush> i just want to confirm that this is somewhat insane <footer id="footer">
186. # [03:39] <techrush> or <header id="header">
187. # [03:41] <tw2113> i see no issues techrush
188. # [03:42] <tw2113> it allows to attach js to them, and differentiates as you can have many headers and footers in a page
189. # [03:42] <techrush> seems weird to me although i get the point about JS
190. # [03:43] <techrush> the way i was seeing it used was with a single header and footer on the page and no JS referencing it
191. # [03:43] <techrush> geuss im not up to speed on html5 semantics yet
192. # [03:43] <techrush> <section> and <article> confuse me a bit as well
193. # [03:43] <tw2113> articles can have their own header and footer too
194. # [03:43] <techrush> ok
195. # [03:44] <tw2113> if you want to get uptospeed with the semantic stuff, this is a good site http://html5doctor.com/
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197. # [03:45] <techrush> ok thanks
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201. # [03:45] <tw2113> "We will publish articles relating to HTML5, its semantics, and how to use it right now. We also invite questions via Ask the Doctor. We’ll post answers in future articles so that everyone can benefit."
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206. # [03:50] <techrush> any major cons to using html5shiv ?
207. # [03:50] <tw2113> given that it pretty much just allows styleability to old browsers.......no
208. # [03:50] <tw2113> i have done websites that have the new semantic stuff working all the way back to IE6 :D
209. # [03:51] <techrush> interesting
210. # [03:51] <techrush> right now im only using the html5 doctype in my sites
211. # [03:51] <techrush> looking to expand that a bit
212. # [03:51] <tw2113> getting your toes a little wet
213. # [03:51] <tw2113> soon you'll go deeper and get the water past your ankles
214. # [03:51] <techrush> yeah
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216. # [03:51] <techrush> hahaha :)
217. # [03:52] <tw2113> next thing you know, look out! you're splashing around dunking people showing off being all like "i'm all up on the new technology, while you're still making table layouts HAHAHAAHAHAHAHA"
218. # [03:53] <techrush> i do find it shocking that i still run into brand new sites made entirely of tables and image maps
219. # [03:53] <tw2113> it's a travesty
220. # [03:53] <tw2113> granted last night i tried applying for unemployment, and the website mentioned the need for IE5+, cookies, and popups enabled
221. # [03:53] <tw2113> and the UI actually didn't do anything
222. # [03:53] <tw2113> lets just say i didn't end up applying
223. # [03:53] <techrush> you should try using a south korean website
224. # [03:54] <techrush> you cant do anything without activeX
225. # [03:54] <techrush> and most everything is designed for ie6
226. # [03:54] <tw2113> i had to tweet about it saying "if you want me to have faith in the US government, make sure the sites actually work in modern browsers"
227. # [03:54] <techrush> i mean for something like that they could even just get a template these days
228. # [03:55] <tw2113> the orient, from what i've seen, is going to be using IE6 for awhile yet
229. # [03:55] <tw2113> with their pirated copies of XP
230. # [03:55] <techrush> specifically korea is whats the most worrying to me
231. # [03:55] <techrush> they are a pretty modern country by most standards
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233. # [03:55] <techrush> and its not just IE ...its activeX
234. # [03:55] <tw2113> i may have to piss off a few koreans with websites that look subpar to them
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237. # [04:03] <tw2113> bbl
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239. # [04:04] <Samot> ThiS IS WHO SHE IS DON'T APOLOGIZ
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291. # [04:43] * tw2113 reads about mobile boilerplate
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294. # [04:47] <tw2113> evening mr miketaylr
295. # [04:47] <miketaylr> hallo sir
296. # [04:47] <bot-t> (5 hours 38 mins ago) <vladikoff`> tell miketaylr http://gyazo.com/167011806a59af99c641d5f2932a4b24.png
297. # [04:47] <miketaylr> ha
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302. # [04:58] <grantg> paul_irish: https://github.com/grantgalitz/XAudioJS
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304. # [04:58] <grantg> just pushed it out
305. # [04:58] <grantg> :)
306. # [05:00] <grantg> enjoy cross-brower native audio sample writing
307. # [05:01] <miketaylr> two-browser :P
308. # [05:01] <grantg> fyi, I need to badly document this, but the return on the callback for underflow is actually an array containing the samples and the number actually returned
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310. # [05:02] <grantg> a very stupid thing I'll try to fix
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313. # [05:05] <grantg> ok
314. # [05:05] <grantg> simplified
315. # [05:05] <grantg> just return the sample array on callback
316. # [05:06] <grantg> miketaylr: You're forgetting this does data uri WAV PCM audio too
317. # [05:06] <zewt> making CSS-aligned objects align with canvas stuff is a lot of fun, since the coordinate systems are subtly different...
318. # [05:06] <grantg> so count in opera as well
319. # [05:06] <miketaylr> DOH
320. # [05:06] <grantg> and safari
321. # [05:06] <miketaylr> my bad
322. # [05:06] <grantg> firefox + safari + chrome + opera
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324. # [05:10] <grantg> ok
325. # [05:11] <grantg> call a new instance of XAudioServer(channels, sampleRate, minBufferSize, maxBufferSize, underRunCallback)
326. # [05:11] <grantg> and ax minBufferSize always less than maxBufferSize
327. # [05:11] <grantg> and the buffer sizes always adequate
328. # [05:12] <grantg> like 15000 and 25000
329. # [05:12] <grantg> and underRunCallback is a callback fired when the audio under runs
330. # [05:12] <grantg> and I pass the number of samples requested
331. # [05:12] <grantg> and you pass back an array of samples
332. # [05:13] <grantg> you write normally through writeAudio(buffer)
333. # [05:13] <grantg> and calling writeAudio and passing your sample buffer to it has the api do everything for you
334. # [05:14] <grantg> and the api will call your callback if more samples are needed from hitting the minBufferSize low edge
335. # [05:14] <Samot> talk it over in bed
336. # [05:14] <grantg> heh
337. # [05:15] <grantg> 1) Set it up
338. # [05:15] <grantg> 2) Pass your samples to writeAudio
339. # [05:15] <grantg> 3) The lib will call your callback for a "refill" if needed.
340. # [05:15] <grantg> but will only call your callback once you call writeAudio
341. # [05:16] <grantg> because code in writeAudio determines whether or not you hit the low-edge of the buffer.
342. # [05:17] <grantg> TL;DR it makes life a lot easier
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344. # [05:20] <grantg> there is a bug for web audio support still
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346. # [05:20] <grantg> only happens if your sample rate selected is lower than the hardware sample rate
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348. # [05:20] <grantg> i.e. you choose something less than 44.1khz
349. # [05:21] <grantg> because I don't have an up-sampler yet
350. # [05:21] <grantg> only a down-sampler
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352. # [05:22] <zewt> heh, at one point i had to implement a resampler myself because, despite ages of searching, at the time no decent, permissively-licensed one existed :| one of those instances of "has to exist ... but apparently doesn't"
353. # [05:22] <grantg> heh
354. # [05:23] <grantg> the downsampler I wrote is realtime in javascript
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356. # [05:23] <grantg> so, I made a "nearest-neighbor" version of a resampler in js
357. # [05:23] <zewt> https://svn.stepmania.com/svn/trunk/stepmania/src/RageSoundReader_Resample_Good.cpp https://svn.stepmania.com/svn/trunk/stepmania/src/RageSoundReader_Resample_Good.h
358. # [05:24] <grantg> takes < 10% CPU load in JS
359. # [05:24] <zewt> very fast in C++ but ... I still shy from doing computational tasks in JS, heh
360. # [05:25] <grantg> heh
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362. # [05:26] <grantg> lol sinc resampler
363. # [05:26] <grantg> that'd eat up the whole cpu
364. # [05:27] <zewt> it's negligible in C++, even on the hardware when it was written half a decade ago ... be interesting to see how it actually does, but it's too much code to rewrite just for an experiment
365. # [05:28] <zewt> of course, there's a good deal of C++-centric optimization in there
366. # [05:28] <grantg> Basic idea for the nearest-neighbor version of resampling is to implement a roll-over counter
367. # [05:28] <grantg> so you map out x every y samples
368. # [05:28] <zewt> nearest-neighbor resampling is so low quality it's really not very useful
369. # [05:29] <grantg> but on rollover you do x+1 every y
370. # [05:29] <grantg> zewt: I hardly notice the diff
371. # [05:29] <zewt> the resampler in that engine before I wrote that was linear, which is better than nearest but still hopeless--that's why that resampler is called "Good", not because it's actually that good; it's just a lot better than what I had before :P
372. # [05:30] <grantg> https://github.com/grantgalitz/XAudioJS/blob/master/XAudioServer.js#L160
373. # [05:31] <grantg> heh
374. # [05:31] <grantg> I need to remove a comment there
375. # [05:32] <zewt> tried using typed arrays for the buffer?
376. # [05:34] <grantg> yeah
377. # [05:35] <grantg> http://www.grantgalitz.org/test/gameboy/ is definitely working with XAudioJS
378. # [05:35] <grantg> heh
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388. # [05:53] <grantg> initialization in my own code: https://github.com/grantgalitz/GameBoy-Online/blob/master/js/GameBoyCore.js#L4838
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399. # [06:21] <tw2113> http://imgfave.com/view/1262902
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403. # [06:30] <grantg> tw2113: For a second there I thought it was a rule 34 firefox image
404. # [06:30] <grantg> A lot of those rule 34 ones have been sneaking on to reddit
405. # [06:30] <grantg> do not want
406. # [06:30] <grantg> O_o
407. # [06:32] <tw2113> i got that image from imgfave.com
408. # [06:33] <grantg> tw2113: Just don't click on the firefox plugin pics
409. # [06:33] <snover> rule 34? that’s the best rule of all.
410. # [06:33] <grantg> snover: If you want to gouge your eyes out
411. # [06:33] <snover> very yes!
412. # [06:34] <snover> it should help you feel more normal
413. # [06:34] <snover> :)
414. # [06:34] <grantg> ...
415. # [06:34] <tw2113> *shrugs*
416. # [06:36] <tw2113> looks like my reddit comment karma ride is bound to be over soon
417. # [06:36] <tw2113> 293 points for "Opera....forever alone"
418. # [06:36] <grantg> http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/9d8cw/firefox_plugin/
419. # [06:37] <tw2113> i like the domain name for the picture
420. # [06:37] <grantg> heh
421. # [06:37] <grantg> http://i.imgur.com/rzHI7.jpg
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424. # [06:42] <grantg> and that's not even the actual rule 34
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426. # [06:42] <grantg> There's even a rule 34 for google chrome'
427. # [06:43] <grantg> wtf
428. # [06:43] <tw2113> damn it, i'm stumbling on good domain names that are available
429. # [06:43] <tw2113> like zombiepiratemonkeys.com
430. # [06:44] <tw2113> too bad, like always, i have more domain ideas than i have uses for the domains
431. # [06:44] <grantg> heh
432. # [06:45] <grantg> http://i.imgur.com/4AjC8.jpg
433. # [06:45] <tw2113> the answer: they suck too
434. # [06:45] <Samot> word
435. # [06:46] <grantg> IE8 on windows
436. # [06:46] <grantg> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxKjga305cY
437. # [06:47] <grantg> Put an IE8 logo on there and it's gold
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590. # [15:49] <Michael> http://www.noupe.com/how-tos/a-guide-to-seamless-website-redesign.html
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653. # [17:50] <niftylettuce> good memory profiler for IE?
654. # [17:51] <moo-_-> niftylettuce: a pink unicorn? :)
655. # [17:51] <niftylettuce> :/
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657. # [17:53] <niftylettuce> needa see a heap dump -.-
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662. # [18:02] <rgervais> looks like text-overflow is priority at nexy cycle over at Mozilla
663. # [18:02] <rgervais> :)
664. # [18:02] <rgervais> about effin' time
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675. # [18:20] <BrianBlakely> Seriously stoked about the new Mozilla release cycle
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677. # [18:20] <BrianBlakely> FF5 in June is going to rock
678. # [18:20] <BrianBlakely> Need IE to go this route, and everything will be just dandy
679. # [18:21] <BrianBlakely> The sucky parts of our jobs are evaporating!
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688. # [18:26] <rgervais> BrianBlakely: I effin' AGREE
689. # [18:26] <rgervais> time to move foward, not backward
690. # [18:26] <rgervais> especially in technology
691. # [18:27] <BrianBlakely> Perhaps job security will be based upon actual design skill and problem-solving capability, rather than one's ability to code a layout in CSS without it exploding
692. # [18:27] * IanWizard is wondering what would be the best, most effective way to capture all keyboard/mouse input in a window.
693. # [18:28] <zewt> addEventListener :)
694. # [18:28] <BrianBlakely> IanWizard: Agreeing with zewt
695. # [18:28] <zewt> (capturing event listeners on the window)
696. # [18:29] <rgervais> BrianBlakely: shit you're right on the money today
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698. # [18:29] <IanWizard> zewt: but I need to capture ALL of it, including things like Ctrl+W, Alt+F4, Shift+F5
699. # [18:29] <BrianBlakely> rgervais: Thanks ;)
700. # [18:29] <zewt> that'll capture everything that the browser allows you to capture
701. # [18:29] <zewt> (which, in most browsers, is just about everything--including some stuff it probably shouldn't)
702. # [18:30] <zewt> (it's very weird that you can capture and preventDefault eg. alt-left and escape)
703. # [18:30] <IanWizard> zewt: but when you're using things like Hulu, those shortcuts don't work, so it can still capture more than plain JS.
704. # [18:30] <IanWizard> I'd love to use just JS if I could, but I need to capture *everything*
705. # [18:31] <BrianBlakely> zewt: I think overriding any keyboard input is an essential ability
706. # [18:31] <zewt> BrianBlakely: not to the point of blocking major browser functionality
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708. # [18:32] <zewt> IanWizard: not sure what you're saying--window.addEventListener("keypress", f, true) will receive those keys, AFAIK
709. # [18:32] <rgervais> zewt: does addEventListener work in IE7?
710. # [18:32] <zewt> as long as the document is focused--if eg. the address bar is focused you won't (you're into browser extension territory there)
711. # [18:32] <BrianBlakely> zewt: The browser is just a means to serve my application
712. # [18:32] <zewt> no
713. # [18:32] <rgervais> i'm just curious
714. # [18:32] <rgervais> what's an alternative then
715. # [18:33] <BrianBlakely> zewt: Plus, you can always just click Back...
716. # [18:33] <zewt> there's no way to capture events in IE pre-9 whatsoever, AFAIK; that requires DOM events, which were only just added in IE9
717. # [18:33] <rgervais> so what we people doing then?
718. # [18:33] <zewt> we weren't :)
719. # [18:33] <rgervais> what were*
720. # [18:33] <zewt> well
721. # [18:33] <BrianBlakely> What?
722. # [18:33] <BrianBlakely> zewt, rgervais: attachEvent
723. # [18:34] <rgervais> I see.
724. # [18:34] <zewt> a lot of cases where the natural thing to do is event capture were worked around by, for example, sprinkling non-capturing event handlers on every element necessary
725. # [18:34] <zewt> BrianBlakely: not for event capture
726. # [18:34] <IanWizard> zewt: (in chrome at least), even capturing all key events, and returning false, doesn't stop things like Ctrl+W
727. # [18:35] <zewt> BrianBlakely: certain major browser interactions pages really shouldn't be able to interfere with--in practice, the only reason pages are going to prevent alt-left is to harass the user
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729. # [18:35] <zewt> i *guess* a valid use case would be a fullscreen game
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732. # [18:36] <BrianBlakely> zewt: What do you mean when you say "not for event capture"? And you're right, Alt-Left is obscure, but consider a very complicated app that has its own "back" and "forward" interactions. The designer might find this to be the most intuitive way to go.
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734. # [18:36] <zewt> the designer should be fired :)
735. # [18:37] <BrianBlakely> zewt: Right, like a game. Think WoW or somesuch
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737. # [18:37] <zewt> (in the game case, "alt-left" is more likely to be, say, "holding alt to crouch while turning left")
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739. # [18:38] <zewt> however, browsers should also be claiming much less of the keyboard input space than they are
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741. # [18:38] <zewt> chrome is actually very good about that: it doesn't have Alt- keys for a bunch of menus (iirc, only Alt-F and Alt-E which open the same menu); every other browser has a dozen hotkeys for menus
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744. # [18:39] <zewt> not that that helps unless you're targetting only chrome, but it's a step
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746. # [18:40] <zewt> a very hard thing to fix, since it's stuck up in an existing UI--I'd probably go on a rampage if FF tried to take away Alt-B to open bookmarks, since I have all kinds of input habits tied up in that
747. # [18:40] <IanWizard> zewt: I am actually targeting chrome primarily, but even still. It's catching things that I need it to not be, so I was looking at flash or something <cringe>
748. # [18:41] <BrianBlakely> IanWizard: Definitely not necessary to go Flash
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750. # [18:42] <IanWizard> BrianBlakely: well then what is the solution? As I see it, it's either, Flash, Java, or (maybe) a browser plugin that will help with it.
751. # [18:42] <zewt> maybe try looking at chrome installed packages; I think they sometimes have permissions not available to regular web pages ... havn't tried them myself (dislike the entire concept) but it's all I can think of
752. # [18:43] <BrianBlakely> IanWizard: What are you trying to capture that you can't?
753. # [18:43] <IanWizard> zewt: I was just thinking that, (and yes, I dislike them too)
754. # [18:44] <IanWizard> BrianBlakely: I'd capture EVERYTHING if I could, but I know that the OS is gonna stop some of it (Ctrl+Alt+Del anyone?).
755. # [18:44] <IanWizard> BrianBlakely: but my big example for now is Ctrl+W
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763. # [18:50] <BrianBlakely> ?mdc beforeunload
764. # [18:50] <bot-t> BrianBlakely, window.onbeforeunload - An event that fires before the unload event when the page is unloaded. https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.onbeforeunload
765. # [18:50] <BrianBlakely> IanWizard: ^
766. # [18:50] <BrianBlakely> Might help
767. # [18:51] <zewt> (it would be helpful if you'd describe your use case; it sounds like you're trying to implement something like an RDP/VNC client)
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769. # [18:51] <IanWizard> BrianBlakely: I know of that, but it still only really solves that one problem.
770. # [18:51] <IanWizard> zewt: I am (the latter)
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777. # [18:57] <paul_irish> where is jetienne!
778. # [18:57] <paul_irish> http://notes.jetienne.com/2011/04/07/jquery-qrcode.html is dope
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780. # [18:57] <paul_irish> robhawkes: dude
781. # [18:57] <paul_irish> your asteroids/impactjs writeup
782. # [18:57] <paul_irish> was wicked hot
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784. # [19:03] <robhawkes> paul_irish: Thanks man! It was the first time I had a proper play with Impact tbh. It's nice.
785. # [19:04] <robhawkes> Have you had a go yet?
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788. # [19:08] <paul_irish> no.. really been meaning to
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790. # [19:08] <paul_irish> its hottt
791. # [19:09] * _|danbeam|_|afk| is now known as danbea
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794. # [19:09] <digitalfiz> link please
795. # [19:10] <paul_irish> ?g impactjs
796. # [19:10] <bot-t> paul_irish, Impact - HTML5 Canvas & JavaScript Game Engine - http://impactjs.com/
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804. # [19:17] <robhawkes> digitalfiz: I wrote a tutorial about it recently, if you're interested in finding out more http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/scriptjunkie/gg189187.aspx
805. # [19:17] <robhawkes> paul_irish: You should definitely play around with it at least, it's easy to use and it doesn't feel clunky like the other engines do
806. # [19:18] <robhawkes> The author is active on IRC as well, which helps with stupid questions and debugging
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810. # [19:20] <Jon47> I just ran pagespeed on my site and got this message:
811. # [19:20] <Jon47> Defer parsing of JavaScript
812. # [19:20] <Jon47> 310.3KiB of JavaScript is parsed during initial page load. Defer parsing JavaScript to reduce blocking of page rendering.
813. # [19:20] <Jon47> I include the script tags at the bottom of the document, just above the </body>, is that just a red herring or do I need to load the scripts farther down.. or maybe asynchronously?
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815. # [19:23] <digitalfiz> robhawkes, nice write up
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823. # [19:33] <robhawkes> digitalfiz: Thank you. Let me know if you decide to have a look at Impact and have any questions
824. # [19:33] * Joins: shichuan (daba13e3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.218.186.19.227)
825. # [19:33] <shichuan> anyone uses unix machine here?
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829. # [19:34] <Jon47> i'm on OS X, sort of bastard version of BSD i guess
830. # [19:35] <shichuan> Jon47: i have a strange question, if i am distributing an executable file *.sh to others, can i set the permission for their use without the need to chmod?
831. # [19:36] <shichuan> cos i dont have a unix, cant confirm this :)
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834. # [19:36] <Jon47> shichuan, I think chmod is the only way to set permissions in unix, or chown
835. # [19:36] <paul_irish> shichuan: i think the docs on createproject.sh are a little outdated. the current version of that file is pretty smart
836. # [19:37] <paul_irish> the chmod is probably not neccessary but its hard to say
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838. # [19:37] <paul_irish> robhawkes: what channel is he in ?
839. # [19:37] <paul_irish> oh. that one.
840. # [19:37] <shichuan> paul_irish: do you mean if i chmod before i commit, other ppl will inherit the permission when they donwload?
841. # [19:37] <robhawkes> paul_irish: #impactjs afaik
842. # [19:38] <robhawkes> He's domsz
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844. # [19:39] <shichuan> paul_irish: like if i do chmod a=x createproject.sh?
845. # [19:40] <paul_irish> oh i'm sure any chmod you do on your system has no bearing on what happens when other people grab it
846. # [19:40] <paul_irish> that's pretty much the extent of my smarts.
847. # [19:40] <Jon47> not sure how git works but I think you can't commit ownership changes to version control, it gets it permissions from the checkout/pull based on the user who performed the action
848. # [19:41] <shichuan> paul_irish: this is the strange question i am talking abt: https://github.com/shichuan/mobile-html5-boilerplate/issues/closed#issue/22
849. # [19:41] <shichuan> :s
850. # [19:41] <shichuan> Jon47: exactly
851. # [19:41] <shichuan> that's what i tot also
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853. # [19:43] <Jon47> WONTFIX
854. # [19:43] <shichuan> Jon47, got it, just wanna confirm, thanks :)
855. # [19:44] <Jon47> np bro
856. # [19:45] <rgervais> shichuan: I've seen major updates on your mobile template
857. # [19:46] <rgervais> some questions..
858. # [19:46] <rgervais> why did you get rid of minimum-scale=1.0, maximum-scale=1.0
859. # [19:46] <shichuan> rgervais: sure, go ahead
860. # [19:46] <rgervais> i see no apps or in general mobile websites
861. # [19:46] <rgervais> that have zoom
862. # [19:47] <rgervais> you changed to initial scale
863. # [19:47] <shichuan> rgervais: long story- http://www.blog.highub.com/mobile-2/a-fix-for-iphone-viewport-scale-bug/
864. # [19:47] <rgervais> that's question #1
865. # [19:47] <rgervais> 2.
866. # [19:47] <rgervais> why did you change max-device-width to max-width?
867. # [19:48] <rgervais> this will cause desktops to resize as well, and I don't think that's a good idea
868. # [19:50] <shichuan> rgervais: for the second question, two reasons: 1. because although it's mobile first, no harm to make it scalable on desktop 2. we have discussed with many experts, no one can give us a scenario that u specifically need device-width.
869. # [19:51] <rgervais> ok.. if this is a mobile only site
870. # [19:51] <rgervais> makes sense
871. # [19:51] <rgervais> but say i'm using responsive design
872. # [19:51] <shichuan> one more reason for question 2, because we use respond.js now which is 10 times faster than the previous media queries polyfill, only reads min/max width
873. # [19:51] <rgervais> so basically a site that I have one html template
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875. # [19:51] <rgervais> using MQ for mobile
876. # [19:52] <rgervais> max-device-width will prevent the browser from using the mobile stylesheet
877. # [19:52] <rgervais> if the browser window is shrinked
878. # [19:52] <rgervais> max-width will allow
879. # [19:52] <rgervais> that's a scenario right there
880. # [19:52] <rgervais> and this is if you're we doing it the responsive way..
881. # [19:53] <shichuan> rgervais: we got some counter arguments saying isn't it good to make it 'mobile first' and also 'by the way' scalable on desktop?
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883. # [19:55] <rgervais> shichuan: I can agree with their argument for a template that's strictly mobile
884. # [19:55] <rgervais> i disagree with max-width if we're have a site for desktop and using MQ for mobile
885. # [19:56] <rgervais> understand?
886. # [19:56] <rgervais> i actually tested right now
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888. # [19:56] <rgervais> max-device-width again, prevents desktop from using mobile stylesheet
889. # [19:56] <rgervais> which makes perfect sense
890. # [19:57] <rgervais> shichuan: so what i'm saying, I probably wouldn't change anything you have
891. # [19:57] <rgervais> but if there's ever a HTML/Mobile template
892. # [19:57] <rgervais> then, max-device-width should be used, IMO
893. # [19:57] <shichuan> rgervais: we are not imposing the way ppl use mq and mbp. we set the base with a focus on mobile
894. # [19:57] <rgervais> for question 1, makes sense.. I'll start to implement that
895. # [19:58] <shichuan> rgervais: things are delete friendly, and u could tweak for ur specific need
896. # [19:59] <rgervais> understood
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898. # [20:00] <shichuan> :)
899. # [20:00] <rgervais> got 1 more, so for question 1
900. # [20:00] <rgervais> are you guys actually using that script
901. # [20:00] <rgervais> ?
902. # [20:02] <shichuan> rgervais: yes, we use it, but in the index.html file, i did include a comment, to tell people be aware of the history and background of it
903. # [20:02] <rgervais> gotcha
904. # [20:02] <shichuan> rgervais: at the bottom of the post, i posted a link to some potential drawback of it
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906. # [20:03] <jquerier> hello all w3c validator gives me a Warning for this like: <meta http-equiv="Content-Language" content="de-DE" /> how could i write in html5 ?
907. # [20:06] <Michael> robhawkes, Where is your write up on impactjs/asteroids?
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909. # [20:07] <robhawkes> Michael: You can find it here - http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/scriptjunkie/gg189187.aspx
910. # [20:07] <Michael> Thanks!
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914. # [20:15] <tw2113> http://notes.jetienne.com/2011/04/07/jquery-qrcode.html
915. # [20:16] <zewt> Jon47: (don't want to go into it in detail, but moving <script> nodes to the bottom of <body> in response to that pagespeed notice is the wrong thing to do)
916. # [20:18] <Jon47> zewt please go into detail
917. # [20:19] <Jon47> I ran the same test on html5boilerplate.com - their scripts look pretty much identical to mine in terms of size and placement - and they did not get dinged..
918. # [20:20] <zewt> off doing other things at the moment :) (but if you want to defer loading, use <script defer> and/or <script async>; <script src> belongs at the top, normally)
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922. # [20:21] <zewt> if you move <script src> to the bottom of the document, the browser won't see it until it's completely loaded the page, so it won't be able to start fetching the script until the page itself finishes loading--slowing things down
923. # [20:23] <moo-_-> Jon47: zewt: if script is in body the browser blocks until the whole body is parsed
924. # [20:23] <moo-_-> put your scripts to head
925. # [20:24] <zewt> yep
926. # [20:25] <rgervais> moo-_-: I'm confused on that, don't they say including the h5bp
927. # [20:25] <rgervais> to put your scripts before the </body>
928. # [20:25] <rgervais> ?
929. # [20:25] <moo-_-> rgervais: they lied
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932. # [20:26] <Jon47> moo-_- but on html5boilerplate.com they do this exact same thing and pagespeed gives them a perfect score
933. # [20:26] <rgervais> moo-_-: so page speed, yahoo and paul_irish are wrong?
934. # [20:26] <moo-_-> rgervais: of course they are :)
935. # [20:27] <rgervais> moo-_-: not sure if your serious, if you are.. scratches head hmm
936. # [20:27] <Jon47> and there's no async attribs or anything...
937. # [20:27] <zewt> are your scripts internal or external?
938. # [20:27] <moo-_-> rgervais: I am Arnold Schwarzenegger of Javascript
939. # [20:28] <moo-_-> Jon47: if clean example works and your page does not work in similar manner there is something interfering the loading
940. # [20:28] <moo-_-> or, the pagespeed might be buggy
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942. # [20:29] <Jon47> moo-_- this is the page: http://rootstrata.com/ I'd appreciate if you could take a look and point out any flaws
943. # [20:29] <moo-_-> one of reason I could think out of my head is that some html tag is left open
944. # [20:30] <moo-_-> I quickly tested in Firebug
945. # [20:31] <moo-_-> and for me it doesn't give DOMContentLoaded event until modernizr is fully loaded
946. # [20:31] <Jon47> it fully validates at html5 at w3.org
947. # [20:31] <moo-_-> Jon47: yeah. looks good.
948. # [20:32] <moo-_-> Jon47: are hifi|broken and rs.js what?
949. # [20:33] <Jon47> those are combined scripts
950. # [20:33] <moo-_-> yeah
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952. # [20:34] <BrianBlakely> Bleh, user-scalable=no was sorta my input on the MH5BP
953. # [20:34] <BrianBlakely> And now it's gone
954. # [20:35] <moo-_-> Jon47: if the script does document.write() or similar thing it blocks the script loading
955. # [20:35] <moo-_-> Jon47: and since you have bundled scripts it will block the whole bundle
956. # [20:35] <zewt> gone where?
957. # [20:35] <moo-_-> Jon47: this is my theory but it could be someone tested by unbundling some of the scripts and moving them to head?
958. # [20:35] <Jon47> moo-_- yeah.. the only document.write in the whole codebase should be in the google analytics snippet
959. # [20:35] <moo-_-> Jon47: aha
960. # [20:35] <moo-_-> Jon47: that's it
961. # [20:35] <moo-_-> known blocker
962. # [20:36] <moo-_-> same goes for google ads
963. # [20:36] <moo-_-> they cannot be loaded in <head>
964. # [20:36] <zewt> newer GA snippets don't do that, don't they?
965. # [20:36] <Jon47> but that comes after the other scripts..
966. # [20:36] <moo-_-> Jon47: I think browsers don't care
967. # [20:36] <moo-_-> because it dynamically modifies HTML source, not DOM
968. # [20:36] <moo-_-> Jon47: update to new async GA code
969. # [20:36] <moo-_-> or create a custom version
970. # [20:37] <moo-_-> Jon47: also, page hit sense, GA should be loaded separately
971. # [20:37] <Jon47> actually the snippet I'm using does this:
972. # [20:37] <Jon47> s.parentNode.insertBefore(g,s)}(document,'script'))
973. # [20:37] <Jon47> so maybe that's not it
974. # [20:37] <moo-_-> Jon47: put the theory to test
975. # [20:37] <moo-_-> remove GA
976. # [20:37] <paul_irish> why are you guys maintaining that blocking scripts are good for performance?
977. # [20:38] <zewt> who's doing that?
978. # [20:39] <moo-_-> document.write() is the only righterous way of doing dynamic pages!
979. # [20:39] <zewt> itym writeous
980. # [20:39] * moo-_- trolls and fails and goes to sulk in a corner
981. # [20:39] <paul_irish> OKAY
982. # [20:39] <zewt> oh god can i un-say that
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984. # [20:39] <moo-_-> what has been irced cannot be unirced
985. # [20:39] * Joins: unomi (~unomi@unaffiliated/unomi)
986. # [20:39] <moo-_-> I wonder why google ads still insist to use document.write()
987. # [20:40] <Jon47> i just temporarily removed the GA snippet, score remains the same
988. # [20:40] <Jon47> gonna try without the belated png fix next
989. # [20:40] <Jon47> that shoulnd't be executing anyway, cause it's inside the IE conditional stylesheet comment block thingy
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993. # [20:41] <Jon47> that didn't do anything either..
994. # [20:42] <paul_irish> Jon47: http://adsense.blogspot.com/2011/03/making-web-faster-for-all-adsense-for.html
995. # [20:43] <Jon47> paul_irish, I don't use adsense at all, I just have the asynchronous analytics snippet
996. # [20:43] <moo-_-> paul_irish: ah, hot news, thanks
997. # [20:44] <paul_irish> o
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999. # [20:44] <Jon47> this is the page if you have time to take a look: http://rootstrata.com/ I can't see why PageSpeed is docking the score for deferring javascripts
1000. # [20:44] * nbari is now known as nbari|away
1001. # [20:45] <zewt> did you try <script defer async>?
1002. # [20:45] <Jon47> I can try that, I feel like it's not necessary if the scripts are at the bottom of the doc tho..
1003. # [20:47] <zewt> what's "necessary"? it's the correct way to do it, moving script tags to a weird place is a hack
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1005. # [20:50] <Jon47> I feel like everyone says it is a best practice..
1006. # [20:50] <Jon47> also it allows binding directly to elements in fairly static DOMs
1007. # [20:51] <Jon47> (without needing to wrap your code in doc.ready)
1008. # [20:52] <zewt> i'm pretty sure i've never seen anyone say that putting external scripts at the bottom of a page is best practice :)
1009. # [20:52] <zewt> internal scripts are less of an issue
1010. # [20:52] <zewt> (inline)
1011. # [20:53] <Jon47> I just put the defer attribute in and it doesn't help the score at all
1012. # [20:54] <zewt> first off you put it in at the bottom of the page (defeats the point, largely), and second you still have other <script src> nodes that aren't...
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1016. # [20:58] * psynaptic is now known as psynaptic|food
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1018. # [20:59] <Jon47> I'm pretty sure I can't defer the modernizr node if I want the site to look ok in IE
1019. # [20:59] <zewt> well, not everything pagespeed suggests is going to work in legacy browsers
1020. # [21:00] <Jon47> the real confusion to me here is that.. h5bp dot com doesn't do any of this stuff.. their scripts are in the body, near the end of the document, they don't use the defer or async attribute, and their site gets a perfect score.. I just wish I knew what I was doing differently
1021. # [21:00] <zewt> is your goal a fast site or a high score? heh
1022. # [21:00] <Jon47> heh
1023. # [21:00] <Jon47> both ideally
1024. # [21:00] <Jon47> the perceived speed to me is pretty snappy
1025. # [21:00] <Jon47> but I'd like for the score to reflect that
1026. # [21:01] <Jon47> I'm not going to sweat it anymore, thank you for your help
1027. # [21:02] <Jon47> oh jesus
1028. # [21:02] <Jon47> I'm going to shoot myself
1029. # [21:02] <Jon47> wanna know what the problem was
1030. # [21:03] <Jon47> dotjs
1031. # [21:03] <paul_irish> ?
1032. # [21:03] * Michael is lost
1033. # [21:03] <Jon47> https://github.com/defunkt/dotjs
1034. # [21:03] <Jon47> kind of like greasemonkey
1035. # [21:04] * Joins: nicksergeant (~anonymous@adsl-71-133-224-58.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
1036. # [21:04] <Jon47> you write custom scripts in your ~/.js/ folder, they get executed on the pages
1037. # [21:04] <Jon47> the dotjs script was blocking the rest
1038. # [21:04] <paul_irish> ha
1039. # [21:05] <Jon47> i apologize for wasting anybody's time, send me an invoice
1040. # [21:07] * Quits: ZeroCoder (~Quilck@90.183.82.215) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1041. # [21:07] <moo-_-> Jon47: ah hah
1042. # [21:07] <paul_irish> hey Jon47
1043. # [21:07] <paul_irish> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/gdyun/iama_we_are_three_members_of_the_google_chrome/c1mvbak
1044. # [21:07] <paul_irish> we have that now.
1045. # [21:08] <paul_irish> as of... maybe 5w ago in dev channel
1046. # [21:08] <zewt> gar, is there really no way to get the offset of an element from the window without walking the offsetParent chain by hand :|
1047. # [21:08] <zewt> (prototype's cumulativeOffset, presumably there's something like that in jquery too)
1048. # [21:09] <Jon47> paul_irish, that is badass, do you know when it's getting into the release branch?
1049. # [21:09] <paul_irish> stable?
1050. # [21:09] <paul_irish> you'll ahve to wait like 8 weeks for that.
1051. # [21:09] <Jon47> i can wait ;)
1052. # [21:09] <paul_irish> you could jump on the dev channel...
1053. # [21:10] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Don't follow me)
1054. # [21:10] <zewt> i don't play much with chrome dev releases, since I don't know any way to install them in parallel with stable
1055. # [21:10] <Jon47> I was running it for awhile but it crashed every now and then, and copying profiles back and forth was bothersome
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1059. # [21:11] * Joins: Frippe (~Frippe@unaffiliated/frippe)
1060. # [21:11] <zewt> and switching it back and forth seemed a pain; like, it was a couple clicks to go from stable to dev, but took hunting to figure out how to go back
1061. # [21:12] * Joins: ZeroCoder (~Quilck@90.183.82.215)
1062. # [21:15] <Jon47> maybe its time to switch back over
1063. # [21:16] <paul_irish> Jon47: is your email your nick at gmail?
1064. # [21:17] <paul_irish> if it is, then i sent you a joke :D
1065. # [21:17] <paul_irish> if it isnt, then you'll NEVERK NOW
1066. # [21:17] <Jon47> /cry
1067. # [21:17] * Joins: robhawkes (~robhawkes@nat/mozilla/x-zvvwjsfvvoucfblr)
1068. # [21:17] <Michael> Could be a stalker paul
1069. # [21:18] <paul_irish> i paypal requested money
1070. # [21:18] * Joins: sneakyness (~sneakynes@c-68-61-181-3.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
1071. # [21:18] <Michael> you were just added to someones' "People to Kill" list
1072. # [21:19] <Michael> Jon47, fsqmedia?
1073. # [21:19] * Jon47 puts on red lipstick and pets his gun
1074. # [21:19] <Michael> lol
1075. # [21:19] <Jon47> fsqmedia, i don't understand the question
1076. # [21:19] <Michael> N/m then
1077. # [21:20] <Michael> Okay we've officially hit the max capacity of our selenium grid
1078. # [21:21] * Joins: BigKing (~BigKing@p5DCE8008.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
1079. # [21:21] <Michael> Jon47, I did a search for "jon47@gmail" and saw something about a Jon with an email fsqmedia@gmail.com
1080. # [21:22] <Jon47> ah interesting.. actually I think i tried jon47 but gmail requires usernames be 6 chars +
1081. # [21:22] <Michael> ahhh
1082. # [21:23] <Michael> 98% code coverage minimum or build breaks - Thoughts?
1083. # [21:24] <Michael> Mine is "Okay so we're going to have to create tests that serve no meaningful purpose other than meeting that mark"
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1105. # [22:13] <zewt> Michael: sounds like a bad workaround for people not following testing requirements
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1111. # [22:23] <nimbupani> http://www.w3.org/QA/2011/04/wiki-based_documentation_proje.html
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1157. # [23:56] * Quits: JKarsrud (~JKarsrud@178.74.13.36) (Quit: Leaving.)
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1160. # Session Close: Fri Apr 08 00:00:00 2011

The end :)