/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-04-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 19 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  9. # [00:08] <zewt> has to be same-origin
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  14. # [00:10] <jetienne> zewt: ?
  15. # [00:10] <jetienne> zewt: how a canvas in a dom may or may not be of the same origin
  16. # [00:12] <zewt> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#security-with-canvas-elements
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  19. # [00:13] <jetienne> zewt: ok thanks... now i need to find out what change this 'origin-clean '
  20. # [00:13] <jetienne> zewt: is it readable from javascript ?
  21. # [00:16] <jetienne> i need to find out what make firefox believe this is not the same origin
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  27. # [00:22] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: "Code Quality Tools why are they important and what we can (and should) do about them." w00t w00t
  28. # [00:23] <danbeam> paul_irish: "Going Steady with the Chrome Dev Tools" more w00ts
  29. # [00:23] <antonkovalyov> :) jsconf track b?
  30. # [00:23] <danbeam> this channel surely has an awesome ratio of JSConf-ers
  31. # [00:23] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: yup, :)
  32. # [00:23] <danbeam> "How to be a Player (on the Internet) The making of Yahoos universal JS media player
  33. # [00:24] <danbeam> "
  34. # [00:24] <danbeam> my talk, muhaha
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  48. # [00:48] <daleharvey> heh I totally want a blackberry playbook now, never thought I would say that - http://www.berryreview.com/2011/04/15/hot-webkit-web-inspector-on-the-blackberry-playbook-for-web-developers
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  160. # [05:27] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: you check facebook?
  161. # [05:29] <digitalfiz> does anyone know if you can get meta data from a mp3 being played through <audio>?
  162. # [05:29] <digitalfiz> id3 data
  163. # [05:32] <digitalfiz> i found this: http://blog.nihilogic.dk/2008/08/reading-id3-tags-with-javascript.html but is there no way to do it with the audio object?
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  177. # [06:09] <k_89> http://pastebin.com/wEX7Txch ... can someone read this reallly short code and tell me why this is drawing only the top left quarter of the image in the canvas stretched to fill the whole element
  178. # [06:09] <k_89> please
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  180. # [06:21] <shichuan> k_89: i think you can set the width and height on canvas, not the css property
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  184. # [06:23] <k_89> shichuan, yeah, got the same tip in another chat room, it worked, trying the dataurl thing now
  185. # [06:23] <shichuan> k_89: try this $('#c').attr('width',imgObj.width); $('#c').attr('height',imgObj.height);
  186. # [06:23] <k_89> shichuan, yeah. dat works
  187. # [06:23] <shichuan> :)
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  189. # [06:32] <k_89> shichuan, after ctx.drawImage, I tried alert(c.toDataUrl()) , it doesn't work
  190. # [06:32] <k_89> can u tell me why
  191. # [06:33] <k_89> the image is drawn on the canvas but i can't alert dataurl
  192. # [06:34] <shichuan> k_89: not all browser support toDataUrl right?
  193. # [06:35] <k_89> shichuan, checking out if chrome does
  194. # [06:37] <shichuan> k_89: it works for me
  195. # [06:37] <shichuan> did u put c.toDataURL("image/png")?
  196. # [06:38] <k_89> hehe.. , my bad, i have written c.dataUrl
  197. # [06:38] <k_89> missed the 'to'
  198. # [06:39] <shichuan> arh, ok
  199. # [06:42] <k_89> http://pastebin.com/VS3yk1vE shichuan , this is the code, i corrected the toDataURL, its still not working
  200. # [06:42] <k_89> its only drawing the image
  201. # [06:44] <shichuan> it has to be put before the drawImage
  202. # [06:44] <k_89> but what if i want to resize the image
  203. # [06:45] <k_89> i am trying to make a canvas based image uploader which resizes image on client side
  204. # [06:45] <k_89> shichuan,
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  206. # [06:46] <k_89> most probably, image will be altered , right?
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  208. # [06:47] <k_89> well, thnx for ur help, gtg
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  230. # [07:22] <k_89> ok... http://pastebin.com/6zNTHjkN can someone check this code and tell me how can i copy the img in iObj, i need to do toDataURL after drawImage, but that doesn't seem to work
  231. # [07:23] <k_89> its very small code
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  238. # [07:36] <k_89> can anyone give me a short example of drawing an img on a canvas, converting it back to img and appending it to the body, i just can't figure out what is it that i am not doing wrong
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  326. # [10:47] <phrearch> morning
  327. # [10:47] <phrearch> anyone experimented yet with canvas?
  328. # [10:47] <phrearch> i just moved a floodfill function to webworker. great performance gain
  329. # [10:47] <phrearch> wonder what other kind of functions could gain from webworkers
  330. # [10:49] <jetienne> phrearch: how do you passe the data between the main page and the worker ?
  331. # [10:49] <jetienne> phrearch: i mean the cpu gain on the floodfill is greater than the cost of passing the image back and forth ?
  332. # [10:50] <jetienne> especially when the image is not a dom but a json string...
  333. # [10:50] <phrearch> yea, webworkers allow to pass an imagedata object
  334. # [10:50] <phrearch> i just post it like 'pixeldata': _layer.canvas.ctx.getImageData(0,0,canvasWidth,canvasHeight),
  335. # [10:51] <phrearch> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/374326/
  336. # [10:51] <jetienne> hmm ok glad it is possible to pass something else than a string :)
  337. # [10:51] <jetienne> phrearch: about canvas, i got a 'same origin' issue... do you have a way to debug that ?
  338. # [10:51] <phrearch> it changed the app from an unresponsive brick to a responsive paint thingy
  339. # [10:51] <phrearch> hm, same origin issue?
  340. # [10:51] <jetienne> phrearch: like the "clean origin" bit they talk about in the doc... is it accessible from the web ?
  341. # [10:52] <phrearch> yea, i have no problems with that
  342. # [10:52] <jetienne> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#security-with-canvas-elements <- for detail on the 'canvas security'
  343. # [10:53] <phrearch> aha, i havent touched toDataUrl yet
  344. # [10:53] <jetienne> phrearch: lucky you :)
  345. # [10:53] <phrearch> only some basic paint functionality
  346. # [10:53] <jetienne> im 6h deep into persuade the browser im not attacking myself
  347. # [10:54] <jetienne> im frustrated now :)
  348. # [10:54] <phrearch> hm, why does the browser think youre on a different domain?
  349. # [10:54] <jetienne> no clue, im looking for a way to debug that
  350. # [10:54] <jetienne> first i would like to be sure this is not a browser bug
  351. # [10:54] <phrearch> yea, that could well be
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  353. # [10:55] <phrearch> i got totally freaked out, when i had something like this in chromium console: x =1; console.log(x); x+=1; console.log(x); >> 2 2
  354. # [10:56] <jetienne> phrearch: got 1 2 here
  355. # [10:57] <phrearch> hm 10.0.648.204 here
  356. # [10:57] <phrearch> version that is :)
  357. # [10:57] <jetienne> 1 2 on chromium 11 and chrome 10
  358. # [10:58] <jetienne> 10.0.648.205 ... all the diff :)
  359. # [10:59] <phrearch> hm, cant reproduce it manually in the console
  360. # [11:00] <jetienne> ah yep i was testing in the console
  361. # [11:00] <phrearch> it happens when i change an array element value. console logging before the change will show the change, and not the value before it
  362. # [11:00] <phrearch> ehm, something like that :)
  363. # [11:01] <phrearch> i wonder if canvas brushing would benefit from webworkers
  364. # [11:01] <phrearch> seems like that wouldnt be as useful as for image filters
  365. # [11:02] <jetienne> thinking about what you said about passing imageDatat to webworker... how big is your picture ?
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  367. # [11:02] <phrearch> hm, something like 1000 by 600. depends on the screen size
  368. # [11:02] <jetienne> is it possible to actually pass canvas ?
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  370. # [11:03] <phrearch> not canvas, but the imagedata object
  371. # [11:03] <jetienne> like using all the drawing funciton of canvas but inside a webworker
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  373. # [11:03] <phrearch> well, not directly, but you can manipulate the pixelarray from the webworker
  374. # [11:03] <jetienne> what about creating the canvas element in the worker, and they use the api there ?
  375. # [11:03] <phrearch> not possible. i read that you cant access the dom from a worker
  376. # [11:03] <jetienne> yep but i dont want to remimplement all the canvas drawing :)
  377. # [11:04] <jetienne> phrearch: i was thinking about using canvas element, but never attaching to the dom
  378. # [11:04] <phrearch> if you have things like blur filters or a floodfill, then webworkers are good for that
  379. # [11:04] <jetienne> i do webgl shader for that :)
  380. # [11:05] <phrearch> you use a 3d canvas?
  381. # [11:05] <jetienne> phrearch: yep im doing game in webgl. http://pacmaze.com is the first one
  382. # [11:05] <phrearch> wow cool
  383. # [11:07] <jetienne> but i would like to do animation in canvas...
  384. # [11:08] <jetienne> and then use as texture... but the perf are no good... not sure why
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  387. # [11:09] <phrearch> heh nice popcorn soundtrack
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  389. # [11:10] <phrearch> did you use a webgl library for that pacman demo?
  390. # [11:11] <phrearch> heh, this is the first fun game i played in html5
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  394. # [11:24] <phrearch> hm, i guess there is not something like waitforthread in webworkers?
  395. # [11:25] <phrearch> multiple fill operations in the log get overwritten because imagedata is set at some random point when the worker is finished
  396. # [11:35] <Zeddy> anyone here tried developing html5 offline apps?
  397. # [11:35] <Zeddy> im so lost with how to handle data :\
  398. # [11:35] <moo-_-> Zeddy: yes
  399. # [11:36] <moo-_-> Zeddy: what is the problem? :)
  400. # [11:36] <Zeddy> well i need to get about 50 megs of data somehow bundled with my app
  401. # [11:36] * Parts: metapeter (~metapeter@unaffiliated/metapeter)
  402. # [11:36] <Zeddy> but i dont know, how to do that
  403. # [11:36] <Zeddy> since android apps dont start if i have to much assets
  404. # [11:37] <Zeddy> and then there are these god damn limits on localstorage on iphone
  405. # [11:37] <Zeddy> like 5 megs
  406. # [11:37] <Zeddy> which makes localstorage completely useless on iphone, in my case atleast
  407. # [11:38] <phrearch> hm, than you get out of options pretty quick
  408. # [11:39] <Zeddy> so there really is no way to store 50 megs of application data on both android and iphone
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  410. # [11:40] <dpy> hi guys
  411. # [11:40] <phrearch> hm i guess not
  412. # [11:41] <phrearch> maybe you can gzip the data before it goes into localstorage?
  413. # [11:41] <phrearch> :)
  414. # [11:41] <dpy> say, does anyone know if it is possible for a widget that uses websockets to be embedded inside another web page on another site? (Think google maps or youtube widgets)
  415. # [11:42] <phrearch> dpy: sure
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  417. # [11:43] <phrearch> im not sure if thats true for all cases like with iframes, but websockets can connect to any server
  418. # [11:43] <Zeddy> phrearch, i dont think i can turn 50 megs into 5 with gzip :p
  419. # [11:43] <dpy> phrearch: how would that work then? because the widget will want to contact another server than the one the document is being served from... He would want to upgrade that connection to a web socket connection...
  420. # [11:44] <phrearch> hm, yea actually it might run into problems when it does the upgrade handshake
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  424. # [11:44] <dpy> phrearch: I was under the assumption that due to the sandbox effect that a widget can only connect (websocket-wise that is) to the server from which the document comes...
  425. # [11:46] <dpy> phrearch: so, my question is, do you know this from fact (that it will work)? or is it also an assumption...
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  427. # [11:46] <dpy> phrearch: I am going to make a simple proof of concept anyway.. just want to know up front if my attempts will be futile...
  428. # [11:47] <jetienne> dpy: i know this for a fact. this is exactly what http://easywebsocket.com is doing
  429. # [11:47] <dpy> ok, good to hear that!
  430. # [11:47] <jetienne> http://easywebsocket.org my bad
  431. # [11:47] <phrearch> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/374347/
  432. # [11:47] <phrearch> thats the websocket handler im using
  433. # [11:47] <phrearch> it checks the originheader
  434. # [11:48] <phrearch> originHeaders = self.requestHeaders.getRawHeaders("Origin", [])
  435. # [11:48] <phrearch> i think those are set by the client browser right?
  436. # [11:49] <dpy> guess so
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  440. # [11:50] <phrearch> should work then i guess
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  442. # [11:50] <phrearch> it just opens another connection from the browser client to another server. the remote server is not involved in that i think
  443. # [11:50] <dpy> I'll try to hack together a proof of concept... but what I hear from you guys, it sounds promising... :)
  444. # [11:51] <phrearch> yea, websockets are a cool improvement
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  480. # [14:08] <phrearch> hey
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  488. # [14:18] <DreamHazard> could anyone please direct me to a method of making a scrolling slideshow without plugins? I want to make a continuous automatic vertical image slider up the side of my page
  489. # [14:20] <moo-_-> DreamHazard: google jquery slideshow, pick one, read source code :)
  490. # [14:20] <moo-_-> DreamHazard: just make a <div> element where overflow:clip is set
  491. # [14:21] <moo-_-> DreamHazard: and then manually pan another element inside this div
  492. # [14:21] <moo-_-> but it should not be too difficult to reserve engineer any plug-in with firebug
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  494. # [14:22] <DreamHazard> thanks :)
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  554. # [16:32] <dzen> mornning
  555. # [16:33] <dzen> Is there a way to extend the localstorage quota ?
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  564. # [16:39] <miketaylr> dzen: depends on the browser
  565. # [16:39] <miketaylr> opera:config#PersistentStorage|DomainQuotaForlocalStorage & opera:config#PersistentStorage|GlobalQuotaForlocalStorage for opera at least
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  572. # [16:57] <Michael> But if you're talking about client side - probably not.
  573. # [16:58] <Michael> At least I hope not.
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  579. # [17:08] <Juo> ha youtube have set their html5 video to rick roll you when you try and download
  580. # [17:08] <Juo> dick heads :P
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  584. # [17:17] <jetienne> i flush the cache of firefox and youpla .toDataURL works and Access-Control-Allow-Origin works too
  585. # [17:17] <jetienne> flushing the cache is the solution to everything :)
  586. # [17:19] <jetienne> XMLHttpRequest cannot load http://127.0.0.1:8082/upload. Origin http://localhost is not allowed by Access-Control-Allow-Origin. ... chrome behavior is strange. the request IS actually DONE. but there is error reported in the debug console
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  619. # [18:06] <moo-_-> jetienne: browserwise 127.0.01 and localhost are different
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  622. # [18:13] <jetienne> moo-_-: sure and 8082 port too. but i provide the OPTIONS header and all
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  624. # [18:14] <jetienne> moo-_-: and either it would be allowed, so be done and no notification.... or it isnt allowed and not be done with a notification
  625. # [18:14] <jetienne> moo-_-: but being done with a notification is cant be done... i dunno
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  637. # [18:34] <moo-_-> jetienne: try with this http://blog.mfabrik.com/2010/11/29/disabling-cross-domain-security-check-for-ajax-development-in-google-chrome/
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  639. # [18:34] <moo-_-> if it works then it is X-site security issue
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  641. # [18:37] <jetienne> moo-_-: thanks. this is progress. this make the notification disapears
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  644. # [18:41] <jetienne> moo-_-: thanks!!! your trick helped me finding the issue
  645. # [18:41] <jetienne> moo-_-: Access-Control-Allow- header must be sent in the OPTIONS *and* in the GET
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  650. # [18:49] <jetienne> moo-_-: if you got a trick to fix a canvas 'clean origin' issue, i am a taker too :)
  651. # [18:49] <jetienne> moo-_-: i do .toDataUrl() on a canvas 3d, it works on chrome. but firefox complains about same origin issue
  652. # [18:50] <jetienne> moo-_-: i would like to know how to detect what change the "clean origin" bit
  653. # [18:50] <jetienne> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#security-with-canvas-elements for the meaning of "clean origin"
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  656. # [18:57] <shichuan> canvas 3d or canvas 2d?
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  658. # [19:00] <jetienne> shichuan: canvas 3d
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  660. # [19:01] <shichuan> like WebGL?
  661. # [19:02] <jetienne> yep
  662. # [19:02] <shichuan> arh, ok
  663. # [19:04] <jetienne> shichuan: does it matter for the 'clean origin' bit ?
  664. # [19:05] <shichuan> not i am aware of, i only do canvas 2d, what's the 'clean origin' issue? u have a test case?
  665. # [19:06] <shichuan> ok, saw the link
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  679. # [19:23] <Michael> 2px 0; is the same as 2px 0 0 0; right?
  680. # [19:23] <Michael> or wrong?
  681. # [19:24] <snover> wrong
  682. # [19:24] <nimbupani> wrong
  683. # [19:24] <nimbupani> 2px 0 2px 0;
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  685. # [19:25] <Michael> ok. I never remember that. Thanks
  686. # [19:25] <Michael> But 2px 0 0 0; could be 2px 0 0 ?
  687. # [19:27] <nimbupani> yeah
  688. # [19:27] <snover> yes
  689. # [19:27] <Michael> ok cool thanks.
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  694. # [19:35] <shichuan> Michael: the first '2px' sets both top and bottom, and the first '0' sets both left and right, so the second '0' is specifically set to overwrite the first '2px'.
  695. # [19:36] <Michael> I see. Thank you :)
  696. # [19:36] <snover> top/bottom left/right, top left/right bottom, top right bottom left
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  702. # [19:42] <ybon> Hi all :)
  703. # [19:43] <ybon> I work in a newspaper, and I'm trying to convince my boss to switch to HTML web app instead of native ones
  704. # [19:43] <ybon> Do you maybe have some smart apps I can show to my boss ?
  705. # [19:44] <ybon> I've shown them the nytimes.com/chrome
  706. # [19:44] <ybon> which is a really nice one :)
  707. # [19:45] <paul_irish> yeah it is
  708. # [19:45] <paul_irish> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/khjialelnkjdomiblmnpcpjongleegef
  709. # [19:45] <paul_irish> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hdfnaelmdjoicpekggmmafbcdhljalak
  710. # [19:45] <paul_irish> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hkpcelemhneoooapbbopolpjhmbfmnbf
  711. # [19:45] <paul_irish> god those URLs are vomitous.
  712. # [19:45] <miketaylr> they're mutating!
  713. # [19:45] <ybon> paul_irish, thanks ! :)
  714. # [19:45] <paul_irish> np
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  723. # [20:05] <shichuan> paul_irish: i have an idea, maybe can help chrome rule the world, like add a function to 'bookmark' app on desktop that u can launch directly
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  727. # [20:07] <ybon> http://chrome.marvel.com/ (for the reader like...)
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  730. # [20:07] <phrearch> hm i have a weird issue when repainting a canvas like _layer.canvas.ctx.putImageData(this.snapshot, 0, 0);
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  732. # [20:07] <phrearch> one browser repaints well, while the other doesnt. it doesnt seem to be a cache problem
  733. # [20:07] <ybon> ( oops, Flash inside... :/ )
  734. # [20:07] <phrearch> same browser versions(chromium)
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  743. # [20:12] <danbeam> ybon: you should use both native and HTML ... NATIVE HTML5! (dun dun dun!!!!!!)
  744. # [20:13] * Joins: glcrazy (~quassel@79.119.94.201)
  745. # [20:13] <ybon> he he :)
  746. # [20:14] <ybon> IE inside :)
  747. # [20:14] <moo-_-> but my browser is HTML native...
  748. # [20:15] <danbeam> moo-_-: if you're not using IE10 you're not native yet, :P
  749. # [20:15] <tw2113> woo 88 more tweets and i hit 10k
  750. # [20:16] <danbeam> tw2113: you've tweeted 10,000 times?
  751. # [20:16] <tw2113> darn close
  752. # [20:16] <danbeam> about what?
  753. # [20:16] <tw2113> probably more about cats than i'd prefer
  754. # [20:16] <tw2113> but that's everyone
  755. # [20:16] <danbeam> tw2113: heh
  756. # [20:17] <tw2113> i try to keep it humor and webdev related when i can
  757. # [20:17] <danbeam> for your 10th tweet you should guesstimate how many minutes / seconds / whatevs you spend thinking about your tweets
  758. # [20:17] <danbeam> graph that over time
  759. # [20:18] <danbeam> to show how much time you've wasted when you could've been pursuing more noble goals
  760. # [20:18] <danbeam> like getting drunk, eating too much, having sex, or writing open source software
  761. # [20:19] <tw2113> i may tweet how many days i've been on twitter, and perhaps some stats of how many tweets per day since then to reach the 10k
  762. # [20:19] <danbeam> (my personal goals, obviously I'm American)
  763. # [20:19] <tw2113> in that order?
  764. # [20:19] <danbeam> tw2113: if you've seen my github, yes, usually in that order
  765. # [20:19] <Zeddy> hey, doesn't the audio tag work in android?
  766. # [20:19] <Zeddy> wtf. :p
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  768. # [20:20] <tw2113> my join date btw April 10, 2008 - 1104 days
  769. # [20:21] <tw2113> https://github.com/danbeam ?
  770. # [20:21] <danbeam> tw2113: or as my friend from Google video search would ask me "Why wouldn't you spend that time downloading porn?"
  771. # [20:21] <danbeam> tw2113: yup
  772. # [20:21] <tw2113> now i'm following yours
  773. # [20:21] <danbeam> tw2113: schweet
  774. # [20:22] <Zeddy> http://ohtml5.com/html5-2/691/html5-audio-tag-on-android/
  775. # [20:22] <danbeam> tw2113: there's more cool shit to come, lol, but only after the pre-requisites have been met
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  777. # [20:22] <tw2113> i keep most of my porn activity to the middle of the night
  778. # [20:22] <danbeam> tw2113: (maybe later tonight)
  779. # [20:23] <danbeam> tw2113: my friend told me that Yahoo!'s calculating Pi was silly (using Hadoop and 1,000 boxes to set world record) - that they should've been downloading porn
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  781. # [20:23] <tw2113> there are only so many times you can watch Pam and Tommy
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  804. # [21:00] <rgervais> guys, I have a client arguing with me saying that all sites needs to look identical in all browsers
  805. # [21:00] <rgervais> I'm having trouble persuading otherwise
  806. # [21:00] <rgervais> I gave him the mobile, tv examples as in
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  808. # [21:01] <rgervais> modern tvs look better than old
  809. # [21:01] <rgervais> won't budge
  810. # [21:01] <rgervais> I told him pages will load faster
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  812. # [21:01] <rgervais> modern browser will look nice, just that IE will be square
  813. # [21:01] <rgervais> won't budge, I don't wtf to say
  814. # [21:02] <rgervais> to me it's pretty much speed and technology and is more important than how things look
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  816. # [21:03] <rgervais> to him it's, all important but they still all need to look the same
  817. # [21:03] <rgervais> you guys have any advice?
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  822. # [21:05] <paul_irish> rgervais: i guess you saw zakas's presentation?
  823. # [21:06] <rgervais> paul_irish: who is zaka?
  824. # [21:06] <paul_irish> oh
  825. # [21:06] <rgervais> and no i haven't
  826. # [21:06] <rgervais> paul_irish: link?
  827. # [21:06] <paul_irish> haha so did you come up with that TV analogy?
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  829. # [21:06] <rgervais> paul_irish: umm, it's pretty general analogy
  830. # [21:06] <paul_irish> rgervais: http://slidesha.re/gLv4EA
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  832. # [21:06] <paul_irish> that will be very helpful
  833. # [21:06] <paul_irish> also
  834. # [21:06] <rgervais> mobile and tv
  835. # [21:07] <rgervais> paul_irish: alrights, thanks.. so there's some advice in there?
  836. # [21:07] <paul_irish> yes lots
  837. # [21:07] <paul_irish> i would talk about the performance differences between the browsers.. how ie9 for example is somewhere like 25x faster than ie6
  838. # [21:07] <rgervais> as long as I can get something
  839. # [21:07] <paul_irish> and
  840. # [21:07] <paul_irish> its up to you to guarantee a performant and responsive experience for ALL your users
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  842. # [21:07] * addyosmani_ is now known as addyosmani
  843. # [21:08] <paul_irish> highly performant experiences are KEY to your site
  844. # [21:08] <rgervais> what do you responsive?
  845. # [21:08] <paul_irish> http://www.phpied.com/the-performance-business-pitch/
  846. # [21:08] <rgervais> performant as in speed correcT?
  847. # [21:08] <paul_irish> i mean fast
  848. # [21:08] <paul_irish> and that means
  849. # [21:08] <rgervais> gotcha
  850. # [21:09] <rgervais> performant = speed
  851. # [21:09] <rgervais> responsive = ?
  852. # [21:09] <paul_irish> reacts quickly to user input and changes
  853. # [21:09] <rgervais> i'm going nuts here with this BS
  854. # [21:09] <paul_irish> i think you can make a case that speedy site > consistent site.
  855. # [21:10] <paul_irish> none of your users open your site in multiple browsers
  856. # [21:10] <paul_irish> and if you're actively trying to make things look the same for that false goal
  857. # [21:10] * CrashDiet_ is now known as CrashTest_
  858. # [21:10] <rgervais> ok, thanks very much
  859. # [21:10] <paul_irish> then you're slowing down the page for your users on older browsers
  860. # [21:10] <paul_irish> loading them up with images that mimic border-radius, box-shadow..
  861. # [21:10] <paul_irish> loading them up with scripts that make that happen
  862. # [21:11] <paul_irish> when you should be focusing on making something that looks good enough and is fast
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  864. # [21:11] * danbeam <3's Nicholas Zakas and Stoyan Stefanov's presentations and blogs
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  866. # [21:12] * danbeam is working Yahoo! because of this, :)
  867. # [21:12] <rgervais> paul_irish: yea that nails it
  868. # [21:12] <rgervais> looking into links now
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  870. # [21:14] <danbeam> fwiw, I totally agree with paul_irish - users have no incentive to upgrade and you can't use browsers to advance your competitive edge if you let slow/old browsers rule your site[s]' functionality/design
  871. # [21:15] <rgervais> danbeam: competely agree
  872. # [21:15] <danbeam> that's not to say you should totally just screw folks using IE6
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  874. # [21:15] <danbeam> but you shouldn't bend over backwards for them (IMO)
  875. # [21:16] <danbeam> I think looking at what Google has done with their doodles -- showing cool <canvas> or bouncing balls with just HTML+JS in "good" browsers and just keeping it the same old Google logo for slow browsers
  876. # [21:17] <danbeam> that seems like a great approach to me, and I haven't heard anybody complaining that they don't get the bouncy balls in IE6 (because those kind of users generally wouldn't know what they're missing out on anyways...)
  877. # [21:17] <paul_irish> facebook, google, yahoo all use CSS progressively and show different browsers different things
  878. # [21:17] <danbeam> we're doing similar stuff for the new Yahoo! News
  879. # [21:17] <danbeam> paul_irish: yup
  880. # [21:19] <antonkovalyov> oh btw people
  881. # [21:19] <rgervais> this is great stuff
  882. # [21:19] <antonkovalyov> if you're in the bay area
  883. # [21:19] <antonkovalyov> i am doing a meetup soon with nicholas zakas and his progressive enhancement talk
  884. # [21:19] <danbeam> we've dropped rounder corners, some gradients in opera, some rgba in IEs (well, you can hack this in some cases)
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  886. # [21:19] <rgervais> just need to drill into clients heads so they agree
  887. # [21:19] <antonkovalyov> looking for a host right now but should be fun
  888. # [21:19] <danbeam> and even some layouts - as long as a site still functions in IE6, it's good enough for me
  889. # [21:19] <danbeam> rgervais: you'll get there
  890. # [21:20] <rgervais> danbeam: the good news is
  891. # [21:20] <danbeam> rgervais: just charge them a fuckton to support IE6 (like double)
  892. # [21:20] <rgervais> i told we shouldnt' support ie6
  893. # [21:20] <rgervais> and agreed
  894. # [21:20] <rgervais> and now i just need other part :)
  895. # [21:20] <rgervais> danbeam: nah fuck that
  896. # [21:20] <rgervais> danbeam: I don't even want to code for IE6, and i don't how much money
  897. # [21:21] <rgervais> maybe if i was really poor and needed money
  898. # [21:21] <rgervais> but to me
  899. # [21:21] <moo-_-> rgervais: .... or, not in a racist sense, you are chinese
  900. # [21:21] <moo-_-> it's still dominant there
  901. # [21:21] <moo-_-> IE666
  902. # [21:21] <rgervais> moo-_-: yea true
  903. # [21:22] <rgervais> to me, if you start thinking in terms of only money
  904. # [21:22] <rgervais> then you'll lose
  905. # [21:22] <rgervais> so anyway...
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  917. # [21:41] <Michael> At Disney it just has to function in IE6.. not look pretty
  918. # [21:41] <Michael> And functionality is trivial.
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  920. # [21:43] <rgervais> paul_irish: that zokas presentaition is awesom!
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  924. # [21:45] <Michael> Ooo I guess I can talk about this if I find it through google:
  925. # [21:45] <Michael> This was one of the "hush-hush" things Adobe showed us
  926. # [21:45] <Michael> http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/wallaby/
  927. # [21:45] <Michael> So apparently not that confidential
  928. # [21:47] <rgervais> Michael: is that created by Adobe?
  929. # [21:47] <Michael> paul_irish, you'd enjoy that
  930. # [21:47] <Michael> rgervais, yep!
  931. # [21:47] <rgervais> that tool
  932. # [21:47] <rgervais> interesting
  933. # [21:47] <Michael> They're totally embracing HTML5.
  934. # [21:47] <Michael> And recognizing that Flash still has its place
  935. # [21:48] <Michael> Especially with the upcoming GPU support and MOLEHILL (*looks at paul_irish*)
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  937. # [21:48] <rgervais> Michael: they are charlie seen winning!
  938. # [21:48] <Michael> lol facepalm
  939. # [21:49] <Michael> I wonder if this is the same IDE they showed us. I'm installing it now
  940. # [21:50] <Michael> Why.. not it isn't and I am shutting up now.
  941. # [21:51] <Michael> jk it is.
  942. # [21:51] <tw2113> anyone touched facebook iframe tabs?
  943. # [21:51] <tw2113> not necessarily on topic but we're devs in here
  944. # [21:52] <paul_irish> Michael: oh this came out a while ago
  945. # [21:52] <paul_irish> Michael: wallaby is total bullshit
  946. # [21:52] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: did you think th?at guy looks anything like you
  947. # [21:52] <paul_irish> you *must* use cs5 to make the .fla
  948. # [21:53] <paul_irish> and it cannot contain any Actionscript
  949. # [21:53] <paul_irish> which means it doesnt work on 99.5% of flash
  950. # [21:53] <paul_irish> niftylettuce: hahah not a lot no
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  954. # [21:54] <Michael> paul_irish, :D It's going to be cool.
  955. # [21:54] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: maybe if he was in the DJ Lance Rock outfit
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  973. # [22:37] <Zeddy> when using the cache manifest and defining images, do these images actually need to be loaded in online mode for them to be cached for offline view, or will the manifest load them itself?
  974. # [22:39] <moo-_-> Zeddy: when offline mode is started first time it caches all files in manifest
  975. # [22:39] <moo-_-> Zeddy: e.g. started as an app
  976. # [22:39] <moo-_-> Zeddy: iphone?
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  978. # [22:40] <Zeddy> iphone android symbian etc
  979. # [22:40] <Zeddy> what do you mean "offline mode is started"
  980. # [22:40] <Zeddy> isn't it too late to cache stuff if you are offline :)
  981. # [22:40] <moo-_-> Zeddy: the trick
  982. # [22:41] <moo-_-> is that iphone at least fetches manifest resources when the app is started from the bookmark first time
  983. # [22:41] <moo-_-> so you must be on-line for the first boot
  984. # [22:42] <Zeddy> yeah
  985. # [22:42] <moo-_-> Zeddy: AFAIK symbian does not honour manifests and the browser is crappy otherwise
  986. # [22:42] <moo-_-> you need to use WRT
  987. # [22:42] <moo-_-> which is totally different game
  988. # [22:42] <niftylettuce> any idea on how I can get the images to load on this custom request? http://pastie.org/private/vrhjnpzklarihpjts6pmag
  989. # [22:42] <Zeddy> the point is to have visitors to the event to load the webapp at a wifi spot, have it download all relevant POI data and their images and let the user wonder off out of the wifi area
  990. # [22:42] <moo-_-> Zeddy: android has no "add as an app" user experience
  991. # [22:42] <moo-_-> confusing shit out of users
  992. # [22:43] * moo-_- rant rant rant
  993. # [22:43] <niftylettuce> i guess just put images in the /images folder.. even though they are in js/libs/mylibs
  994. # [22:43] <Zeddy> well im highly familiar with Qt so symbian wont be a problem, i'll solve that in another way
  995. # [22:44] <Zeddy> but the idea is to provide a web only alternative for iphone and android, and then use applications for the platform with crappy html5 support, like symbian :P
  996. # [22:44] <moo-_-> Zeddy: if you can 1) have a dialog "add as an app (iphone)" instructions 2) tell users to start the app once in wi-fi area it should be ok
  997. # [22:44] <moo-_-> Zeddy: like what youtube does when you visit their html5 site on iphone
  998. # [22:45] <Zeddy> well, there will be instructions in the wifi spot on how to do it
  999. # [22:45] <Zeddy> i will generate all the pages using php which fetches data from the database, and then generate the pages and the manifest file dynamically
  1000. # [22:46] * Quits: Misiur (~Misiur@77.255.236.102) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1001. # [22:46] <Zeddy> so i'll probably have a main page, with a map view aswell as dialogs containing POI info with images
  1002. # [22:46] <moo-_-> Zeddy: nice
  1003. # [22:46] * Quits: nicksergeant (~anonymous@74.112.37.250) (Quit: nicksergeant)
  1004. # [22:47] <Zeddy> but as long as everything listed in the manifest is stored in the cache the first time the user visits the page, its all fine and dandy
  1005. # [22:47] <Zeddy> however, isn't that stressing the device a bit, to load all of the stuff at once? :p
  1006. # [22:47] <moo-_-> Zeddy: yes and no
  1007. # [22:47] <moo-_-> Zeddy: also I have a preloader javascript
  1008. # [22:47] <Zeddy> also, if i have a page like index.php?poi=243 <- can i cache that, will it download it in its current state?
  1009. # [22:48] <moo-_-> it makes sure everything in manifest is loaded before proceeding to the next view
  1010. # [22:48] <Zeddy> allright
  1011. # [22:48] <moo-_-> Zeddy: yes
  1012. # [22:48] <moo-_-> Zeddy: lemme dig it for u
  1013. # [22:48] <Zeddy> moo-_-, omfg
  1014. # [22:48] <Zeddy> :D
  1015. # [22:51] <moo-_-> Zeddy: http://snipplr.com/view/50482/application-cache-loading-status-reporter-for-html5--javascript/
  1016. # [22:51] <moo-_-> I think it might be missing some code eaxmples
  1017. # [22:51] <moo-_-> buy you'll get the idea
  1018. # [22:53] <Zeddy> thanks alot, bookmarked
  1019. # [22:53] <moo-_-> Zeddy: the trick is this
  1020. # [22:53] <Zeddy> btw, is the size limit 5MB?
  1021. # [22:53] <moo-_-> Zeddy: at least iphone fires one loading event per each manifest line
  1022. # [22:53] <moo-_-> Zeddy: not really
  1023. # [22:53] <moo-_-> Zeddy: 5 MB is for local SQL db
  1024. # [22:54] <Zeddy> but.. no specified size limit for cache?
  1025. # [22:54] <Zeddy> how does that make sense :p
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  1027. # [22:55] <Zeddy> well thats good, then i can increase the amount of zoom levels for my map ^_^
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  1032. # [22:59] <tomh> hey, anyone here did some work on 'native-like' scrolling for android?
  1033. # [22:59] * Joins: franksalim__ (~franksali@108-65-76-174.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  1034. # [22:59] <moo-_-> tomh: yeah
  1035. # [22:59] <tomh> did you found any fast solution?
  1036. # [23:00] <tomh> *find
  1037. # [23:00] <moo-_-> tomh: nope
  1038. # [23:00] <tomh> meh, damn :(
  1039. # [23:00] <moo-_-> tomh: CSS transforms are not accelerated on Android
  1040. # [23:00] <moo-_-> no can do
  1041. # [23:00] <tomh> I know
  1042. # [23:00] <moo-_-> aven't tried 2.3 yet
  1043. # [23:00] <tomh> yeah well our target audience is 2.2
  1044. # [23:00] <tomh> but I was dissapointed with the performance
  1045. # [23:00] <tomh> especially if there are many intensive other things on the same page
  1046. # [23:01] <moo-_-> tomh: sorry. cannot fix that for you :(
  1047. # [23:02] * Quits: Worror (~cyrus@24.156.83.8)
  1048. # [23:02] <moo-_-> html5 app experience is teh shit on android in any case
  1049. # [23:02] <moo-_-> or the browser + html5 generally
  1050. # [23:02] <tomh> well not everything
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  1052. # [23:02] <moo-_-> blackberry and iOS own it
  1053. # [23:02] <tomh> blackberry?
  1054. # [23:03] <tomh> which version? :P
  1055. # [23:03] <moo-_-> playbook? :)
  1056. # [23:03] <tomh> oh haha, yeah that one maybe
  1057. # [23:03] <moo-_-> haven't one myself but read article about it
  1058. # [23:03] <moo-_-> rivals iPad in browser game
  1059. # [23:03] <moo-_-> freshblog post
  1060. # [23:03] <moo-_-> let me dig it up
  1061. # [23:03] <tomh> i've read it probably
  1062. # [23:04] <tomh> but what is the fastest solution you found for native scrolling?
  1063. # [23:05] <moo-_-> http://www.sencha.com/blog/blackberry-playbook-the-html5-developer-scorecard/
  1064. # [23:05] <rgervais> tomh: what is native scrolling
  1065. # [23:05] <rgervais> ?
  1066. # [23:05] * Quits: Juo (~Juo@unaffiliated/juo) (Quit: Juo)
  1067. # [23:05] <moo-_-> tomh: you mean emulate scroll inside an element?
  1068. # [23:05] <tomh> yes
  1069. # [23:06] <tomh> rgervais: its not really native, but I mean to emulate the behavior of native scrolling in a mobile browser
  1070. # [23:06] * Quits: plh_ (~plh@30-6-203.wireless.csail.mit.edu) (Quit: always accept cookies)
  1071. # [23:06] <moo-_-> rgervais: bottom tabs is my guess :)
  1072. # [23:06] <moo-_-> tomh: do you have android in hand?
  1073. # [23:06] <tomh> i have a couple of android devices
  1074. # [23:06] <moo-_-> tomh: try this link http://blog.mfabrik.com/2011/04/18/integrating-facebook-with-plone/
  1075. # [23:07] * psynaptic|away is now known as psynaptic
  1076. # [23:07] <moo-_-> it uses jquery mobile + scroll thing from adobe
  1077. # [23:07] <moo-_-> can be found in jquery mobile experimental
  1078. # [23:07] <tomh> scroll thing from adobe?
  1079. # [23:07] <tomh> got a link to that?
  1080. # [23:07] <moo-_-> tomh: @author says adobe
  1081. # [23:07] <moo-_-> yep
  1082. # [23:09] <moo-_-> tomh: here https://github.com/jquery/jquery-mobile/tree/master/experiments/scrollview/
  1083. # [23:09] * Quits: Michael (~disney@unaffiliated/jabberwock) (Quit: Leaving)
  1084. # [23:10] <moo-_-> the performance is good on iOS
  1085. # [23:10] <tomh> thanks
  1086. # [23:10] <moo-_-> moderate on high power Android devices
  1087. # [23:10] <tomh> yeah on iOS its not a problem
  1088. # [23:10] <moo-_-> useless for low end Android devices
  1089. # [23:10] * Parts: skqr (~skqr@extwdig.dig.com)
  1090. # [23:10] <moo-_-> I find it usable on galaxy s
  1091. # [23:10] * Joins: skqr (~skqr@extwdig.dig.com)
  1092. # [23:11] <tomh> yeah, but i would need to test it with a heavy canvas element below it :>
  1093. # [23:11] <rgervais> moo-_-: are you a mobile developer?
  1094. # [23:11] <rgervais> and i mean this from functionality front
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  1096. # [23:12] <moo-_-> rgervais: no, I am an incomplete bleach of a cow :)
  1097. # [23:13] <rgervais> bummer
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  1099. # [23:14] <tomh> meh android should just get hardware accelerated webkit transitions :/
  1100. # [23:15] * moo-_- wrote his first mobile pages for Nokia 7110 and WAP 1.0
  1101. # [23:15] <moo-_-> you had hard limit of page size of 4000 bytes
  1102. # [23:15] <moo-_-> if you exceeded it the phone crashed
  1103. # [23:15] <moo-_-> so I am happy about the current progress
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  1105. # [23:15] <tomh> really? nokia will get a browser based on IE6 :p
  1106. # [23:16] * Joins: madalu (~user@unaffiliated/madalu)
  1107. # [23:16] <moo-_-> tomh: trust me
  1108. # [23:16] <moo-_-> if it's made by Microsoft it is better than made by Nokia
  1109. # [23:17] <tomh> haha yeah that could be true
  1110. # [23:17] <tomh> thank god I don't have to support IE mobile yet
  1111. # [23:17] * paul_irish barfs.
  1112. # [23:18] <tomh> hey paul_irish ~
  1113. # [23:18] <paul_irish> hey
  1114. # [23:18] <paul_irish> :)
  1115. # [23:18] <tw2113> you ok over there paul? you look a lil green
  1116. # [23:18] <paul_irish> sorry, iemobile7 browser thoughts make me spontaneously vom
  1117. # [23:19] * tw2113 watches Rebecca and her The Jquery Divide talk
  1118. # [23:19] * Joins: ybon (~ybon@92.90.17.1)
  1119. # [23:19] <tomh> yeah lets just hope that windows phone doesn't get anywhere so we don't have to support a browser like that :)
  1120. # [23:20] <tw2113> you don't need to support it unless you want to :P
  1121. # [23:20] <tw2113> or your client insists
  1122. # [23:20] <tomh> well maybe our stats insist
  1123. # [23:20] <daleharvey> android webkit has css transforms
  1124. # [23:20] <chrislorenz> You know what I think the web needs? More javascript frameworks... discuss
  1125. # [23:20] <daleharvey> not 3d transforms though
  1126. # [23:20] <tomh> they have, they are just not fast
  1127. # [23:20] <tw2113> if your site is attracting IE users...you're doing something wrong :D
  1128. # [23:21] <moo-_-> daleharvey: the problem is that transforms are too slow
  1129. # [23:22] * moo-_- SEO optimizes his site for Bing
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  1131. # [23:22] <tw2113> i optimize for altavista
  1132. # [23:22] <daleharvey> I havent tried the jquerymobile iscroll yet, jquery fastclick is totally broken in android though
  1133. # [23:23] <tomh> i tried iscroll today, its too slow
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  1135. # [23:23] <tomh> that is on a page with a canvas
  1136. # [23:23] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  1137. # [23:24] <daleharvey> http://neave.github.com/touch-scroll/ worked ok enough for me on android
  1138. # [23:24] <daleharvey> it was fast enough but had a few bugs
  1139. # [23:25] * Quits: nOStahl (~nOStahl@adsl-68-23-137-141.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1140. # [23:25] <tomh> I'm not sure if that implementation differs that much from iScroll
  1141. # [23:26] * moo-_- thinks wheter tw2113's DeLorean needs more nuclear fuel to go back in time
  1142. # [23:26] <tomh> the problem is just that the transitions are not hardware accelerated
  1143. # [23:26] <tomh> so if you have other stuff demanding precious CPU on your page, it will get choppy
  1144. # [23:26] <tw2113> 1.21 gigawatts!!!!
  1145. # [23:27] <daleharvey> what are you doing to have a running canvas animation the same time as a scrollable content area on the screen at the same time?
  1146. # [23:27] <tomh> a popup infront of a html5 game ;p
  1147. # [23:27] * Quits: dcadenas (~dcadenas@r186-48-212-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1148. # [23:28] * Joins: nicksergeant (~anonymous@cpe-72-230-190-106.rochester.res.rr.com)
  1149. # [23:28] <daleharvey> heh I thought you were gonna say that, at the least you should be pausing the canvas loop
  1150. # [23:28] * Quits: nicksergeant (~anonymous@cpe-72-230-190-106.rochester.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  1151. # [23:28] <tomh> yeah that should be the case
  1152. # [23:28] <tomh> but not always in our control
  1153. # [23:29] <tomh> atleast for now I cannot work with the assumption the loop is paused
  1154. # [23:29] * Quits: LongBeach (~mike@AFontenayssB-152-1-32-237.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  1155. # [23:30] * Quits: komputes (~komputes@ubuntu/member/komputes) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1156. # [23:30] <daleharvey> why dont you have control?
  1157. # [23:30] <tomh> some games are made by third parties
  1158. # [23:33] * Joins: Brodingo (~Brodingo@cpe-70-116-2-207.austin.res.rr.com)
  1159. # [23:36] <paul_irish> html5rocks has more opera users than IE users. http://paulirish.com/i/fa20.png \o/ \o/
  1160. # [23:37] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@220.248.79.198) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1161. # [23:38] <tomh> still seems like you have some work to do cleaning up the other 2.52% IE users :P
  1162. # [23:38] <chrislorenz> paul_irish: The fact that it's so close though i am sure is disheartening to Opera
  1163. # [23:39] <daleharvey> yo paul_irish, you going to js pub tonight?
  1164. # [23:39] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@adsl-68-127-27-216.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net)
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  1166. # [23:39] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona)
  1167. # [23:46] * Joins: Misiur (~Misiur@77-255-236-102.adsl.inetia.pl)
  1168. # [23:46] * Joins: ryanseddon (~RSeddon@202.126.98.210)
  1169. # [23:46] * Joins: jeffszusz (~jeffszusz@66.11.186.38)
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  1171. # [23:48] <danbeam> paul_irish: that's awesome
  1172. # [23:48] <paul_irish> daleharvey: ya
  1173. # [23:48] <danbeam> paul_irish: (about Opera > IE)
  1174. # [23:49] <tw2113> why is yayquery so infrequently done? :P
  1175. # [23:49] <tw2113> although i do see one from the 13th
  1176. # [23:50] <paul_irish> /kick tw2113 stop complaining.
  1177. # [23:50] <danbeam> because Paul is busy doing _everything else on the planet_
  1178. # [23:50] <tw2113> oh yeah, good point danbeam
  1179. # [23:51] * Joins: henrikkok (~henrikkok@3306ds3-amb.0.fullrate.dk)
  1180. # [23:51] <tw2113> i'll just have to listen to other stuff while i wait paul
  1181. # [23:52] <tw2113> brb
  1182. # [23:52] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1183. # [23:52] * Joins: DRSK (55188930@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.24.137.48)
  1184. # [23:52] <DRSK> Can I have a section within a section?
  1185. # [23:53] <paul_irish> totally
  1186. # [23:53] * Joins: themiddleman_itv (~robot@70.99.191.202)
  1187. # [23:53] <danbeam> *BUUUUUUUUAH* in-<section>
  1188. # [23:54] * danbeam has had a dream within a dream and doesn't remember how he got here right now ...
  1189. # [23:54] * Quits: glcrazy (~quassel@79.119.94.201) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1190. # [23:55] <paul_irish> hahaha in-<section>
  1191. # [23:55] <paul_irish> danbeam++
  1192. # [23:56] <danbeam> paul_irish: ++danbeam // I'm now faster
  1193. # [23:56] <danbeam> :P
  1194. # [23:56] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
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  1196. # [23:58] * Joins: Senix (~look@unaffiliated/look)
  1197. # [23:59] <grantg> Senix: http://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/gtwml/gotta_catch_em_all/
  1198. # Session Close: Wed Apr 20 00:00:00 2011

The end :)