/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-04-20 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 20 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
# [00:00] <grantg> Giving all of r/pokemon a nightmare
# [00:01] <danbeam> grantg: cannot be unseen
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# [00:02] <danbeam> grantg: (not really that bad)
# [00:02] <grantg> danbeam: I'm getting downvoted to oblivion
# [00:02] <danbeam> grantg: heh
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# [00:03] <danbeam> I wish memegenerator.net didn't suck, I totally tried to make an xzibit macro for the dude that asked about nesting <section>s, but it doesn't work and I'm too lazy to bust out the GIMP
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# [00:04] <grantg> heh
# [00:05] <grantg> gimp takes to damn long to load
# [00:05] <grantg> ._.
# [00:05] <paul_irish> can someone do me a favor can get me the gs.statcounter link showing adoption of ff3.6 -> ff4
# [00:05] <danbeam> gimp's load ... is too damn high!
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# [00:07] <danbeam> paul_irish: I only see FF4 > IE9, not FF4 > FF3.6
# [00:07] <paul_irish> link?
# [00:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: http://gs.statcounter.com/press/firefox-4-hits-the-ground-running-and-eclipses-internet-explorer-9
# [00:08] <grantg> Also NOT photoshopped: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Myrtle_Corbin.jpg
# [00:09] <paul_irish> http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-na-weekly-201106-201115
# [00:09] <paul_irish> there it is. cc danbeam
# [00:09] <danbeam> paul_irish: I got that from the RSS feed, and you know what that means ... I had to open a browser other than Chrome *cough*
# [00:10] <danbeam> paul_irish: I'm colorblind - this doesn't help me much, mate, :(
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# [00:10] <paul_irish> o
# [00:10] <danbeam> lol
# [00:10] <grantg> heh
# [00:10] <danbeam> 'sall good
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# [00:14] <grantg> Since when is IE10 only for Windows 7?
# [00:14] <grantg> lolwut
# [00:14] <daleharvey> last week sometime
# [00:14] <danbeam> grantg: the beginning of time
# [00:14] <grantg> lolwut << infinity
# [00:15] <tw2113> oh microsoft
# [00:15] <daleharvey> I loved the engadget headline
# [00:15] <danbeam> grantg: more importantly, since when did I get a shit about either IE or Windows? nevar
# [00:15] <grantg> It's a good way to kill off your prouct
# [00:15] <daleharvey> "Microsoft confirms IE10 won't run on Vista, millions of IE9 users shrug"
# [00:15] <grantg> *product
# [00:15] <daleharvey> http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/14/microsoft-confirms-ie10-wont-run-on-vista-millions-of-ie9-user/
# [00:16] <grantg> WORST MARKET EXPOSURE STRATEGY EVAR!
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# [00:16] <grantg> People aren't going to upgrade to Win7 any time sooner.
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# [00:17] <tw2113> they need to get their 54% of people or whatever off of XP
# [00:18] <tw2113> maybe it's 44%
# [00:18] <tw2113> http://robertnyman.com/2011/04/19/internet-explorer-and-the-diminishing-windows-support/
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# [00:19] <grantg> When Windows 8 comes out, IE11 will only support Windows 9. :P
# [00:19] <benv> do we win?
# [00:19] <grantg> heh
# [00:21] <danbeam> tw2113: oh, they don't support IE10 on Vista <-- I forgot that was an Windows version, lol
# [00:22] <grantg> 10000 seconds on http://nyanpig.com/ and going
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# [00:22] <danbeam> grantg: push
# [00:22] <grantg> danbeam: pull?
# [00:22] <danbeam> grantg: javascript:void(startTime=0);
# [00:22] <danbeam> grantg: psh**
# [00:22] <grantg> Y?
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# [00:23] <danbeam> grantg: because I've been Nyan'ing for 1303251646.2 seconds
# [00:23] <danbeam> grantg: that's why
# [00:23] <grantg> lol
# [00:24] <danbeam> also this -> http://www.nyan.cat/ (cats r kewler)
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# [00:46] <grantg> paul_irish: What's wrong with google chrome - http://imgur.com/7DQ4el&KZFBk
# [00:46] <grantg> look at both images
# [00:46] <grantg> the nearest-neighbor rendered one is actually scaled IN JAVASCRIPT
# [00:46] <grantg> the bi-linear one is done by Google Chrome itself.
# [00:46] <grantg> WTF
# [00:47] <grantg> CPU usage 1/3 less on the nearest-neighbor scaling done through JS
# [00:47] <grantg> rather than letting google chrome do it itself automatically
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# [00:53] <grantg> danbeam: "teh webkitz is too damn slow"
# [00:53] <grantg> and to give a perspective on things, the entire emulation excluding the scaling itself takes up just under 30%
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# [01:03] <tw2113> should i feel low and dumb for not using jsbin much at all?
# [01:04] <daleharvey> not if you use http://pastebin.me instead
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# [01:28] <paul_irish> kk
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# [02:16] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: might be interested... gotta find a good paying job first for summer
# [02:23] <paul_irish> yeah not the cheapest apt
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# [03:02] <tw2113> evening nimbupani
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# [03:05] <nimbupani> hi tw2113
# [03:05] <bot-t> (51 mins 50 secs ago) <snover> tell nimbupani does CSS3 bgs & borders have anything that lets you, like, use sprite maps with background-repeat or anything?
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# [04:44] <eboyjr> Can I render video in a canvas? I just need someone to point me to a good tutorial
# [04:45] <eboyjr> not tutorial, but a reference
# [04:50] <tw2113> http://introducinghtml5.com/examples/ch05/drawimage.html
# [04:50] <tw2113> hit view source
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# [05:07] <biodegabriel> Is <dir> a valid HTML5 entity? I keep finding conflicting answers.
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# [05:12] <tw2113> i'd probably start poking around the spec pages for a difinitive answer
# [05:14] <biodegabriel> tw2113: i can't find it in there, so i'll assume it's not usable. thx
# [05:14] <tw2113> valid != not usable
# [05:15] <tw2113> you'll just likely have different behavior per browser
# [05:15] <tw2113> i think canvas was getting worked on long before it entered the html5 spec
# [05:15] <biodegabriel> tw2113: "different beahviour per browser" sounds like it's not usable in a practical sense.
# [05:16] <tw2113> pretty much, you wouldn't have a huge amount of consistency unless they happened to all be developing in the same general direction
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# [05:18] <tw2113> but that wouldn't make it un-usable in some sense ;)
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# [06:29] <puff> Hi, I'm looking at using the canvas and offline storage, basically I'm making a drawing program with the ability to save the drawings in offline storage.
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# [06:30] <danbeam> puff: cool
# [06:31] <puff> If I understand this correctly, offline storage only stores strings.
# [06:31] <puff> I see here that you can get a PNG of the canvas image, is it possible to get an SVG?
# [06:33] <eboyjr> You can get a base64 encoded version
# [06:34] <puff> Cool.
# [06:34] <puff> Any idea what keywords to google on?
# [06:36] <eboyjr> try canvas base64 png??
# [06:37] <puff> Ah, wait, that's a base64 encoded version of the PNG.
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# [06:39] <eboyjr> Yeah svg is anything but compressed
# [06:41] <puff> Yeah... I'd like it to save it as SVG so I can support undo/redo ops.
# [06:41] * tw2113 just ran across danbeam's name in the YQL console
# [06:41] <puff> Hm, looks like the answer is to actually draw using SVG.
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# [06:43] <eboyjr> yup
# [06:43] <puff> Hm, are there any existing SVG drawing apps?
# [06:44] <shepazu> puff: SVGDraw
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# [06:44] <puff> Er, I meant a browser-embeddable drawing app.
# [06:45] <shepazu> oops, I mean, SVG-Edit http://code.google.com/p/svg-edit/
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# [06:45] <puff> COol.
# [06:47] <puff> Yeah, that looks great.
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# [07:34] <danbeam> tw2113: were you trolling github tables?
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# [07:38] <tw2113> more like pulling my data using them
# [07:38] <danbeam> cool
# [07:38] <danbeam> yeah, unfortunately
# [07:38] <tw2113> you wouldn't happen to know an easy way to sort the json object pulled from it would you?
# [07:38] <danbeam> github's API is anything but helpful
# [07:38] <danbeam> in getting the data I wanted
# [07:38] <danbeam> | sort(field="blah")
# [07:39] <tw2113> tack that onto the yql query?
# [07:39] <danbeam> at the end like in bash, yeah
# [07:39] <tw2113> i'm not the best with this topic yet, but working on the fact
# [07:40] <danbeam> you can also PM me, if you want, the rest of this room might not care about YQL tips (though it super cool!)
# [07:40] <danbeam> it is**
# [07:40] <tw2113> right now i simply have it pulling in all my repos and it orders from first to last, i wonder if i could get it to float the most recently updated ones to the top
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# [07:42] <danbeam> tw2113: what are you trying to do?
# [07:42] <tw2113> hmm, looks like pushed-at would be the best way to order by
# [07:42] <tw2113> pull my repos into my resume site
# [07:42] <danbeam> tw2113: like this -> http://danbeam.org/#!projects ?
# [07:42] <tw2113> just for a basic list
# [07:42] <danbeam> tw2113: or just repos?
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# [07:42] <tw2113> http://michaelbeckwithsresume.com
# [07:43] <tw2113> click interests to get to it quick
# [07:43] <danbeam> Github Repositories?
# [07:43] <tw2113> yup
# [07:44] <tw2113> right now, it goes in order i created, oldest at the top
# [07:44] <tw2113> if i can figure out how, i'd like the most recently pushed at the top
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# [07:45] <tw2113> want a pastebin of what i have for php?
# [07:45] <danbeam> tw2113: sure
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# [07:47] <tw2113> pastebin.com/X4dQBx27
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# [07:52] <tw2113> no huge deal if i don't figure this out tonight :D i'm glad i got this far really
# [07:52] <danbeam> tw2113: select repository.pushed-at.content, repository.url, repository.name, repository.description from github.user.repos where id='spullara'
# [07:52] <danbeam> tw2113: close, but YQL is being a c***
# [07:52] <tw2113> it's giving me errors in FF4
# [07:53] <tw2113> but i appreciate it :D
# [07:55] <danbeam> select repository.pushed-at, repository.url, repository.name, repository.description from github.user.repos where id='spullara' and repository.pushed-at != '' | sort(field="repository.pushed-at", descending="true")
# [07:56] <danbeam> http://yhoo.it/ft7CnD
# [07:57] <danbeam> grab the REST query from that and stick it in your PHP file
# [07:57] <danbeam> you also might have to update your PHP's handling of XML/JSON a touch
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# [07:58] <tw2113> noted
# [07:58] <danbeam> you also seem to want forks, so add that to the field list
# [07:58] <tw2113> as you can tell, i'm not against working on a live site
# [07:58] <tw2113> :D
# [07:58] <danbeam> :)
# [07:58] <tw2113> not that i get a lot of traffic yet
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# [07:58] <danbeam> stay buggy, my friend
# [07:58] <danbeam> http://i.imgur.com/y7Hm9.jpg
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# [07:59] <danbeam> http://yhoo.it/guOMUF <-- with forks
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# [08:00] <tw2113> already got the fork one working
# [08:00] <tw2113> at least A version
# [08:00] <danbeam> cool
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# [08:00] <danbeam> the REST query http://bit.ly/fb0nTD
# [08:00] <tw2113> i have the querying in a text file, i'm doing my dev on my other comp
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# [08:01] <danbeam> Pushes values into your objects. Resistance is futile.
# [08:01] <danbeam> heh
# [08:01] <tw2113> back to work i go! zoom zoom
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# [08:02] <danbeam> tw2113: also, small note - if you only need a couple of these repos (not all 28), you can put a remote limit that speeds up your query a bit by putting (0, N) after the table name
# [08:03] <danbeam> like this - http://yhoo.it/eEnKB8
# [08:03] <danbeam> d'oh
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# [08:04] <danbeam> whatever, like this - from github.user.repos (0, 3) <--
# [08:04] <tw2113> k
# [08:05] <danbeam> my goal is to never ship anything I don't need across the wire in YQL
# [08:05] <danbeam> otherwise it's a bit of a waste
# [08:05] <tw2113> true
# [08:06] <tw2113> what i need most is more ideas on ways to experiment with the topic so i can work on my filtering etc
# [08:06] <tw2113> instead of select *
# [08:06] <tw2113> and sometimes, you just need a useless idea to tackle
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# [08:11] <danbeam> there are tons of things you can do with YQL
# [08:11] <danbeam> trust me
# [08:14] <tw2113> not saying there isn't, what i'm saying is a good idea that you can plan out
# [08:14] <tw2113> just for the hell of it
# [08:14] <tw2113> find a good practice goal and make your way to it
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# [08:16] <paul_irish> hi JojoBoss
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# [08:17] <JojoBoss> paul_irish: howdy
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# [08:20] <tw2113> danbeam i think i have it just as i want now, thanks for the help :)
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# [08:22] <tw2113> evening paul_irish
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# [10:29] <Zeddy> is there any way to take a svg and display it inside canvas :o
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# [13:38] <robhawkes> Zeddy: Have you tried loading the SVG file as an image and drawing that onto the canvas? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5495952/draw-svg-on-html5-canvas-with-support-for-font-element
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# [16:09] <phrearch> hello
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# [16:09] <phrearch> anyone knows what the best way is to update a resizeable shape in a canvas?
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# [16:10] <phrearch> right now i keep the pixel-state of the canvas before the element is placed, and refresh the canvas with that every time
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# [16:10] <phrearch> wonder if webworkers can have any speedgain with this
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# [16:15] <miketaylr> phrearch: have you seen fabric.js?
# [16:15] <miketaylr> you could probably glean some ideas from it: https://github.com/kangax/fabric.js
# [16:17] <phrearch> miketaylr: hey thanks!
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# [16:18] <phrearch> yea, i need somethinge like that
# [16:19] <phrearch> thats some pretty impressive performance as well
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# [16:19] <phrearch> really nice library
# [16:20] <phrearch> great, mit licensed :)
# [16:20] <phrearch> i wonder how it's so fast
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# [16:24] <miketaylr> kangax did a talk on it last night
# [16:25] <miketaylr> lemme find the slides
# [16:25] <miketaylr> http://www.slideshare.net/kangax/fabricjs-building-acanvaslibrarybk
# [16:27] <phrearch> impressive stuff
# [16:28] <phrearch> probably it would still be useful to keep multiple canvas elements to support multi-layer paint
# [16:28] <phrearch> does it support svg import by the way?
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# [16:29] <phrearch> ah got it. it does :)
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# [16:44] <Misiur> wow, this fabric.js looks pretty useful
# [16:44] <phrearch> yea, i thought the same :)
# [16:45] <phrearch> i can really use such a thing in my collab painting app
# [16:45] <phrearch> wonder if it can export to svg as well
# [16:46] <miketaylr> i think that's planned
# [16:46] <phrearch> thats pretty awesome
# [16:46] <phrearch> edit in a webbrowser or in inkscape :)
# [16:46] <miketaylr> but it can serialize the canvas state and rebuild it, etc
# [16:46] <Misiur> I could use it in my multilang news editor. As I can see it takes care of few canvas bugs (or not bugs, just advanced things)
# [16:46] <miketaylr> so you can save the paining in a db, or pass it via websockets, etc
# [16:46] <miketaylr> s/paining/painting/
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# [16:47] <phrearch> yea, thats what im currently try to do as well, but its a disadvantage not having canvas available on the serverside as well
# [16:48] <phrearch> ideally i would like to push the canvas state directly, instead of rebuilding from the operation log
# [16:48] <phrearch> there is some canvas implementation for node.js using cairo. hope something like that will be there for py as well
# [16:48] <phrearch> its probably limited to some basic operations
# [16:49] <phrearch> anyway, one thing at a time :(
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# [16:57] <Eftarjin> Hi. Not sure this is the right place, but I’d like to parse HTML5 from python. Is there any difference between html5lib.parse(source, treebuilder="lxml") and lxml.html.html5parser.fromstring(source) ?
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# [17:12] <mahen23> hey hello
# [17:12] <mahen23> there is no room for modernizr?
# [17:12] <mahen23> where can i get help?
# [17:16] <miketaylr> whatcha need?
# [17:17] <mahen23> well i simply want to use border-radius with firefox 3.6
# [17:17] <mahen23> the documentation is obscure, cant understand it
# [17:17] <miketaylr> ok, that should just work, no?
# [17:17] <miketaylr> -moz-border-radius: 10px, etc
# [17:18] <mahen23> wut
# [17:18] <mahen23> so modernizer does not do it for me?
# [17:18] <mahen23> i must go and type it?
# [17:18] <miketaylr> no, modernizr just detects if your UA is capable
# [17:18] <miketaylr> hahaha
# [17:18] <mahen23> damm, all that i heard were lies
# [17:19] <miketaylr> </troll>
# [17:19] <mahen23> no
# [17:19] <mahen23> so how do i do to make ff 3.6 use border radius now?
# [17:19] <mahen23> create a seperate css file?
# [17:19] <miketaylr> what i just typed
# [17:19] <miketaylr> why a different css file?
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# [17:19] <miketaylr> if the browser doesn't understand it, it'll just ignore it
# [17:20] <miketaylr> ?g MDC border-radius @ mahen23
# [17:20] <bot-t> mahen23, border-radius - MDC Doc Center - https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/border-radius
# [17:20] <mahen23> because ff4, chrome 10 and ie9 understands border-radius 15px, so i want to keep it that way
# [17:20] <mahen23> oh wait
# [17:20] <jetienne> new version of my pacman in webgl at http://pacmaze.com (for details see http://notes.jetienne.com/2011/04/20/pacmaze-v2-even-more-WebGL-in-pacman.html)
# [17:21] <mahen23> you are telling me to use both border-radius and moz-border-radius inside my tag?
# [17:21] <miketaylr> right mahen23, add the -moz- vendor prefix
# [17:21] <miketaylr> yeah
# [17:21] <miketaylr> -webkit- too if you want older chromes/safaris to work
# [17:21] <mahen23> how about IE 7/8 ?
# [17:21] <miketaylr> nah
# [17:22] <miketaylr> just forget ie7 and 8 and rounded corners
# [17:22] <miketaylr> there's JS solutions...but who cares
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# [17:22] <mahen23> but i want em
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# [17:24] <miketaylr> well then, google for them
# [17:25] <miketaylr> i don't know any off hand
# [17:25] <mahen23> ok, thanks though
# [17:25] <miketaylr> np
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# [17:28] <mahen23> ff3.6 does take rgba() nah?
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# [17:36] <miketaylr> um, probably
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# [18:29] <k_89> hi.. i made an image resizer using html5 canvas from which you can extract the resized image... somehow it doesn't work on chrome... it works in opera and safari, though
# [18:29] <k_89> can anyone tell me why
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# [18:31] <k_89> toDataURL doesn't work on chrome after drawing on canvas, agin, i want to know the why
# [18:33] <jetienne> k_89: is there an error notified in the js console ?
# [18:33] <k_89> jetienne , didn't try that, where can i see the console in chrome
# [18:34] <miketaylr> open the developer tools
# [18:34] <miketaylr> cmd+opt+i or ctrl+shift+i
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# [18:36] <k_89> miketaylr, jetienne , yeah.. it shows an error
# [18:36] <miketaylr> what does it say?
# [18:36] <jetienne> 1000 is my bet :)
# [18:36] <k_89> Uncaught Error: SECURITY_ERR: DOM Exception 18
# [18:37] <miketaylr> is it a cross-domain image?
# [18:37] <k_89> no
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# [18:37] <miketaylr> ?g DOM Exception 18
# [18:37] <bot-t> miketaylr, javascript - Uncaught Error: SECURITY_ERR: DOM Exception 18 ... - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2704929/uncaught-error-security-err-dom-exception-18
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# [18:37] <miketaylr> file:// ?
# [18:37] <jetienne> k_89: it is an same origin issue
# [18:37] <ybon> ( Just in case : http://twitter.com/#!/informagicien/status/60741974818439168 )
# [18:37] <socialhapy> http://bit.ly/dLtBBa @informagicien: Libération cherche dev JS/HTML5/CSS3 pour webapp mobile, dispo de suite. Mission CDD, freelance... Contact @informagicien
# [18:37] <jetienne> k_89: check the source of your data
# [18:37] <k_89> i think bot-t got it
# [18:38] <k_89> its a test.html file, with the image located in the same folder
# [18:38] <k_89> i'll try again, and if it works, i'll have an image uploader which resizes images clientside
# [18:41] <k_89> yes, thanx bot-t, jetienne miketaylr , it works now
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# [18:51] <shichuan> i want to use some cultural reference for a recent tech writing, anyone here never watched 'the sopranos'? all men shld know it right?
# [18:51] <miketaylr> i've never seen it
# [18:51] <miketaylr> but it's about fat gangster or something
# [18:51] <miketaylr> *gangsters
# [18:52] <shichuan> yea, ok, thanks
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# [19:17] <paul_irish> http://blog.seanmartell.com/2011/04/14/a-tale-of-two-logos-nightly-and-aurora/
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# [19:20] <paulrouget> paul_irish: the wallpaper! http://mozilla.seanmartell.com/nightly-aurora-1920X1200.jpg
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# [19:20] <paul_irish> ooooh that's naice
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# [19:29] <SaadIbrahim> i have a question
# [19:29] <SaadIbrahim> i have decided to upgrade from xhtml 1.0 to html5
# [19:30] <SaadIbrahim> i was loooking at some examples
# [19:30] <miketaylr> yay
# [19:30] <SaadIbrahim> and all of them have the nav outside the header
# [19:30] <SaadIbrahim> so as best practicces go
# [19:30] <SaadIbrahim> can nav go inside header?
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# [19:31] <miketaylr> yeah, probably
# [19:31] <miketaylr> there's even an example of that at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-header-element SaadIbrahim
# [19:32] <SaadIbrahim> hmm
# [19:32] <SaadIbrahim> wonder what hgroup is for
# [19:33] <SaadIbrahim> heres my structure: http://pastebin.com/vGvr9iEB
# [19:34] <miketaylr> looks groovy to me
# [19:34] <SaadIbrahim> would you recommend any changes?
# [19:34] <SaadIbrahim> ty :)
# [19:35] <SaadIbrahim> lets assume i am coding this: http://screensnapr.com/v/cCLcnC.png there are two part of that header.. hwtas recommended... using sections or div? coz like divititis.. i dont want sectionitis :P
# [19:36] <SaadIbrahim> whats*
# [19:36] <miketaylr> <section> typically has a heading
# [19:37] <miketaylr> so if that doesn't make sense, <div> is probably a good choice
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# [19:46] <SaadIbrahim> <miketaylr> so if that doesn't make sense, <div> is probably a good choice
# [19:46] <SaadIbrahim> last message
# [19:46] <SaadIbrahim> oh mike
# [19:46] <miketaylr> yeah
# [19:46] <SaadIbrahim> k
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# [19:47] <SaadIbrahim> thanks for the help miketaylr
# [19:47] <miketaylr> np dude
# [19:47] <SaadIbrahim> i had to tab through three mikes to get to you
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# [19:48] <miketaylr> those other mike's are turkeys
# [19:48] <SaadIbrahim> tw2113: and you are here too :P
# [19:48] <SaadIbrahim> why do you keep following me eh
# [19:49] <tw2113> daily
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# [19:50] <SaadIbrahim> j/k
# [19:50] <tw2113> miketaylr and me are the best mike's :D
# [19:50] <tw2113> with the exception of maybe Michael Jordan
# [19:50] <miketaylr> yeah, he was cool
# [19:50] <SaadIbrahim> you are also a mike? :o
# [19:50] <tw2113> yup
# [19:51] <SaadIbrahim> i saw him in the movie with those cartoons.. seemed cool
# [19:51] <SaadIbrahim> thats about it
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# [19:51] <tw2113> i'm not sure whether to put that as a lower part of his career or not. it'd be somewhere around his baseball attempt or his return with the washington wizards
# [19:52] <tw2113> but at least it has his best sport in it, so i won't argue that much
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# [20:46] <SaadIbrahim> <header id="mainHeader"> <-- doesnt this suck :/
# [20:47] <tomh> depends on how much headers you have~
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# [20:49] <paul_irish> shepazu:
# [20:49] <paul_irish> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/publish/Filters.html#FilterFunction stuff would apply in CSS, right?
# [20:49] <paul_irish> mostly svg seems to be referenced here
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# [20:50] <paul_irish> looks like it.
# [20:50] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, ohai
# [20:50] <paul_irish> heyanton
# [20:50] <antonkovalyov> paul_irish, i got your phone number wrong first time
# [20:50] <tw2113> SaadIbrahim i'd say use the id "mast"
# [20:50] <paul_irish> ya. common excuse.
# [20:50] <tw2113> easier to type :P
# [20:51] <antonkovalyov> ha
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# [20:52] <tomh> so today we found a bug that when adding list elements with innerHTML to an ul and you use :last-child, it doesn't properly apply the css to the li's in webkit mobile ~
# [20:52] <shepazu> paul_irish: yes, those should apply to CSS/HTML as well
# [20:52] <tomh> anyone seen that before?
# [20:52] <paul_irish> \o/
# [20:52] <paul_irish> hotness
# [20:52] <SaadIbrahim> any designers ever hangout here?
# [20:52] <shepazu> in fact, those are largely for the CSS shorthand use
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# [20:57] <Misiur> Hi guys, do you think that parsing CSS/HTML with PHP needs less resources than with JS?
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# [20:59] <puff> Misiur: Certainly it uses _different_ resources.
# [20:59] <puff> Misiur: PHP is server side, JS is client side, so by using JS you're offloading it to the end user.
# [21:00] <puff> Misiur: On the other hand, you're also making your pages more of a resource hog, but nobody seems to care about that, these days.
# [21:01] <Misiur> puff: So for bigger projects it's better to move as much work as possible on client?
# [21:01] <SaadIbrahim> NO :|
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# [21:06] <tomh> the client already has so much CSS transition rendering to do -.-
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# [21:06] <Misiur> well, of course it's best to do as least work as possible
# [21:06] <Misiur> on both sides
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# [21:26] <moo-_-> Misiur: PHP is not godo for parsing
# [21:26] <moo-_-> not good
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# [21:35] <rgervais> guys I have some good news, i'm made some head way on my argument from yesterday
# [21:35] <rgervais> the idea of making sites look identical causing slow performance is catching on
# [21:35] <rgervais> i've convinced some, not all
# [21:35] <rgervais> but defenitely better outlook than yesterday
# [21:36] <rgervais> sites look identical in browsers theory that is**
# [21:38] <paul_irish> \o/
# [21:38] <paul_irish> good news
# [21:38] <paul_irish> im gonna blogify that convo
# [21:40] <tomh> slow performance if you try to optimize your site for multiple browsers?
# [21:42] <paul_irish> ya
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# [21:42] <tomh> well it would maybe be a little bit slower, but not that much to call it slow I guess
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# [21:42] <Neiluj> hey, anybody using requirejs build tool ?
# [21:42] <tomh> unless your site was already slow
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# [22:16] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: any good approaches to delegating work in git?
# [22:16] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: or how ur team would approach different tasks without overlap?
# [22:16] <rgervais> paul_irish: totally please let me know when you have that in blog
# [22:17] <rgervais> but i appreciate everyone's one input, it made me look good
# [22:17] <rgervais> :)
# [22:17] <rgervais> in the meeting we had today
# [22:18] <rgervais> tomh: we disagree
# [22:18] <rgervais> a 2 second delay
# [22:18] <rgervais> turns users away
# [22:18] <rgervais> which in turn is less traffic
# [22:18] <rgervais> which is AKA less money
# [22:18] <rgervais> :)
# [22:18] <tomh> do you have evidence that it comes at the cost of 2 seconds?
# [22:19] <rgervais> yea there's a good article on that paul showed me yesterday
# [22:19] <rgervais> yahoo, google, twitter
# [22:19] <rgervais> all did tests
# [22:19] <rgervais> and seconds count
# [22:19] <tomh> well yeah thats obvious
# [22:19] <rgervais> umm.. looking over logs
# [22:19] <rgervais> to see give you link
# [22:19] <rgervais> tomh: you say it's obvious
# [22:19] <tomh> but did that article show that supporting an extra browser caused 2 seconds of delay in rendering the page?
# [22:20] <rgervais> tomh: the argument wasn't supporting an extra browser
# [22:20] <rgervais> the argument was, should sites look identical in all browsers
# [22:20] <tomh> I would say ideally yes, why not?
# [22:21] <tomh> on the same platform that is
# [22:21] <rgervais> which basically means, should IE look the same
# [22:21] <rgervais> IE is really the only one with issues
# [22:21] <rgervais> and i mean all IEs including 9
# [22:21] <tomh> I know
# [22:21] <rgervais> tomh: the answer is no
# [22:22] <rgervais> because you sacrifice using 1. todays best technology
# [22:22] <rgervais> 2. bunch of fall backs for older browsers = bad maintainability
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# [22:22] <rgervais> 3. the most important, performance
# [22:22] <rgervais> as paul said yesterday
# [22:23] <rgervais> and my argument is only purely front-end
# [22:23] <rgervais> not functionality
# [22:23] <tomh> well if you have an advanced website which depends a lot on intensive frontend computations, then I would say yes, serve the IE users with a 2nd rated version of your website
# [22:23] <rgervais> in this case.. shadows, rounded corners, gradients
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# [22:24] <tomh> yeah I wouldn't add a special emulation layer for those features for IE users
# [22:24] <tomh> that adds minutes to rendering speeds not seconds :P
# [22:24] <rgervais> tomh: most designs sites have some sort of gradients, rounded corners
# [22:24] <rgervais> there's nothing advanced about that
# [22:24] <rgervais> my point is
# [22:24] <rgervais> not use images for that
# [22:24] <rgervais> and instead use css progressively
# [22:24] <rgervais> in general, HTML CSS JS progressively
# [22:25] <rgervais> tomh: yea you're right on speeds so we agree
# [22:25] <rgervais> and i've convinced you :)
# [22:25] <tomh> you didn't I was already convinced of that before ;p
# [22:25] <rgervais> so why did you say
# [22:25] <rgervais> .. <tomh> I would say ideally yes, why not?
# [22:26] <rgervais> ;)
# [22:26] <tomh> yeah, ideally :)
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# [22:26] <tomh> if possible
# [22:26] <rgervais> gotcha
# [22:27] <tomh> I mean IE can easily be 30-50% of your visitors, it has to look a little bit decent to them :)
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# [22:27] <rgervais> yea i'm not saying look shitty
# [22:27] <rgervais> all i'm saying is things like rounded corners and shadows we can leave out in IE
# [22:28] <rgervais> just small things that really matter
# [22:28] <tomh> well you can have those in all browsers if you use images
# [22:28] <rgervais> just to add corners I need to slice images and add three divs
# [22:28] <rgervais> tomh: exactly we can with images, that's not good a way to go
# [22:28] <tomh> it used to be :P
# [22:28] <rgervais> images = slow load time
# [22:29] <rgervais> tomh: the keyword there is "used"
# [22:29] <tomh> if you make a sprite, it is not that much
# [22:29] <tomh> and internet connections have gotten faster
# [22:29] <rgervais> if you want to remain in the past by all means
# [22:29] <rgervais> sure
# [22:29] <tomh> so maybe it matters 25 ms?
# [22:30] <rgervais> tomh: i'm done.
# [22:31] <rgervais> guys, i forget where can I get the logs for this
# [22:31] <rgervais> room html5?
# [22:31] <tomh> I think you should really back up your claims with data though..
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# [22:32] <rgervais> tomh: yea the logs have some links paul posted
# [22:32] <rgervais> i want to show that to you
# [22:32] <tomh> ok cool
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# [22:34] <rgervais> http://www.phpied.com/the-performance-business-pitch/
# [22:34] <rgervais> http://slidesha.re/gLv4EA
# [22:34] <rgervais> check that first one out
# [22:35] <rgervais> explains it nicely
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# [22:36] <tomh> oh yeah, well im not opposing the fact that faster speed means more visitors or less bounces or anything
# [22:36] <rgervais> tomh: then what's your argument, i don't get it
# [22:37] <rgervais> explain to me why I should i use images
# [22:37] <rgervais> for some rounded corners for example
# [22:37] <tomh> well I personally think small stuff like that has too little impact on page load spead
# [22:38] <tomh> if we assume you already have a sprite with images you send to the user
# [22:38] <rgervais> tomh: that's where we differ
# [22:38] <tomh> and add the extra rounded corners
# [22:38] <rgervais> small things do matter
# [22:38] <rgervais> tomh: and I use sprites all the time
# [22:38] <rgervais> and still do, just not for some round corners
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# [22:39] <tomh> and you personally experienced that adding extra rounded corners or gradient backgrounds decreased visits?
# [22:40] <rgervais> ok, i gave a link with data
# [22:40] <rgervais> is that not enough?
# [22:40] <tomh> yeah, but thats higher gaps than what I had in mind for the cost of those graphics
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# [22:40] <tomh> the yahoo sample talked about 0.4 seconds
# [22:41] <rgervais> like i said, personally i'm doing those things the new way
# [22:41] <tomh> yeah thats all good
# [22:41] <tomh> but im still questioning removing those graphics
# [22:41] <tomh> now lets take buttons for example
# [22:41] <rgervais> graphics = more images = slower site
# [22:42] <rgervais> it's that simple
# [22:42] <tomh> research has shown how much the design of "conversion buttons" matter
# [22:42] <tomh> you can do it purely CSS and leave IE users with a limited designed button
# [22:42] <tomh> then you need to wonder what the balance is of sending the best performing button design to IE users vs pagespeed
# [22:43] <rgervais> tomh: ahh that's a good one
# [22:43] <tomh> yeah, im considering those cases for the images
# [22:43] <rgervais> tomh: see you may have an argument there, so in that case
# [22:43] <rgervais> it'll be your judgement i guess.
# [22:44] <tomh> yup, thats what my point is, those images will be judgement calls based on data collected by a/b testing for example
# [22:45] <rgervais> actually I still use images for submit buttons now
# [22:45] <rgervais> sometimes not
# [22:45] <rgervais> so that one i go back/forth
# [22:45] <rgervais> just depends
# [22:46] <tomh> and what about the case when certain graphical styles are part of the corporate identity
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# [22:48] <sedovsek> rgervais: On Mouseover, do you change the image that represents the button, or not?
# [22:48] <sedovsek> Sorry to bounce in, but it seems like a reasonable conversation.
# [22:48] <rgervais> tomh: that's really a client decision
# [22:48] <sedovsek> What I like about "native" buttons is that they interact like a button.
# [22:48] <rgervais> i would still advocate to use purely css
# [22:49] <rgervais> and if IE doesn't support, sorry
# [22:49] <tomh> yeah ideally if possible :)
# [22:49] <rgervais> i forgot to mention
# [22:49] <tomh> from a developers perspective
# [22:49] <sedovsek> People who use IE are used to see ugly websites. :)
# [22:49] <sedovsek> So why bother?
# [22:49] <rgervais> want images, project takes more hours
# [22:49] <rgervais> sedovsek: IE is the most popular browser
# [22:49] <rgervais> if you ignore that, you're dead man
# [22:50] <rgervais> sedovsek: thought I hate it, I don't deny that
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# [22:50] <rgervais> and won't stop supporting it
# [22:50] <rgervais> the only IE that's dead to me
# [22:50] <rgervais> is IE6
# [22:50] <rgervais> :)
# [22:50] <sedovsek> Sounds reasonable.
# [22:50] <sedovsek> It's ~10 years old.
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# [22:50] <rgervais> in 2 years maybe ie7
# [22:50] <rgervais> and i'll be somewhat happy
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# [22:51] <rgervais> sedovsek: about the mouse over thing, that just depends on design
# [22:51] <rgervais> not everything needs mouse over, IMO
# [22:51] <rgervais> not sure if I answered your question though
# [22:52] <sedovsek> If you take a default button for example
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# [22:52] <sedovsek> -> <input type="button"/>
# [22:52] <sedovsek> It has style. It interacts.
# [22:52] <sedovsek> ON mouse over, on mouse press, etc.
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# [22:52] <rgervais> i think there's default style on mouse press
# [22:53] <rgervais> i don't remember one for mouse over??
# [22:53] <tomh> my button (macosx) doesn't have a mouseover
# [22:53] <rgervais> wrong here?
# [22:53] <sedovsek> Hmm...
# [22:53] <rgervais> and in any case
# [22:53] <rgervais> when using image, the answer is no
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# [22:54] <rgervais> I don't create a style for mouse press, but it's pretty simple to do
# [22:54] <rgervais> if you want to
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# [22:57] <sedovsek> I just checked...
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# [22:57] <sedovsek> -> <input type="button" /> has default mouseover style.
# [22:57] <sedovsek> It slighlty changes bluer.
# [22:57] <sedovsek> That is in chrome.
# [22:57] <sedovsek> on windows machine.
# [22:57] <sedovsek> I can power up apple, but I'm pretty sure works the same.
# [22:58] <sedovsek> Firefox as well.
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# [22:58] <sedovsek> ie7 also.
# [22:58] <sedovsek> What i would like to emphasize is that buttons needs different "stages".
# [22:59] <sedovsek> That is why I asked you if if you/how do you change button on mouse over when you use images.
# [22:59] <jetienne> bytes=3751-3751 <- is this a legal http request byte range ?
# [22:59] <sedovsek> Lowering the opacity might be a solution?
# [22:59] <rgervais> well in your case, if you want yea sure
# [23:00] <rgervais> up to you, you can use css pure way or image
# [23:00] <rgervais> using :hover
# [23:00] <sedovsek> I wrote a paper once, but it's unfortunatelly in Slovene.
# [23:01] <sedovsek> This could turn into interesting debate. :)
# [23:01] <sedovsek> But still got some work left :/
# [23:01] <rgervais> sedovsek: if it's just a general question, I don't that much unless asked for
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# [23:07] <niftylettuce> where would be a good place to ask a question about .htaccess rewrites?
# [23:07] <niftylettuce> http://pastie.org/private/kkmpn6h9khyejdqubxrlq
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# [23:11] <sedovsek> NOt sure, but...
# [23:12] <sedovsek> Options +FollowSymlinks
# [23:12] <sedovsek> RewriteEngine on
# [23:12] <sedovsek> RewriteRule ^/?(\w+)$ public/index.php
# [23:12] <sedovsek> RewriteRule ^/?(\w+)$ public/index.php$1 [L]
# [23:13] <sedovsek> Note that (\w) stands for any possible word
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# [23:14] <sedovsek> But since you want ANYTHING to go to public/index.php, it's ok, i guess. Maybe you could use ^(.*)$ insted.
# [23:16] <sedovsek> You could also put index.php in ./mysite directory which only contains: <?php header("Location: ./public/index.php"); ?>
# [23:17] <sedovsek> Ahh, sorry. Forgot that - "I don't want public to display in the URL either"
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# [23:56] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: http://2011.jsconf.us/#/proposal/eff575eed3ae974073b61c61647ad76b <-- my talk is also gonna be about at least half about JS widget performance, :)
# [23:57] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: perhaps we can trade tips
# [23:57] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, i am not doing that talk on jsconf, but yeah sure
# [23:57] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: oh
# [23:57] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: must've just been loking at the proposal list, damn
# [23:58] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, i am doing track b talk about jshint :)
# [23:59] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: oh yeah, code quality tools, yeah
# [23:59] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: cool, I remember now
# Session Close: Thu Apr 21 00:00:03 2011

The end :)