/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-04-21 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 21 00:00:03 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
# [00:00] * Joins: ybon (~ybon@92.90.17.8)
# [00:00] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: I was gonna ask you how much you actually changes from JSLint (other than the UI, that's obvious)
# [00:00] <danbeam> changed**
# [00:01] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, a lot
# [00:01] <antonkovalyov> i relaxed a few rules
# [00:01] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: I figured, but I don't see a huge difference when I lint things
# [00:01] <antonkovalyov> added a lot of options to do diff stuff
# [00:01] <antonkovalyov> depends on the code you write :)
# [00:02] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: but I've been JSLinting for a long time, and JSLint doesn't hurt my feelings, :P
# [00:02] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: yeah
# [00:02] <antonkovalyov> and since jshint is pretty stable right now
# [00:02] <antonkovalyov> i am starting a branch in which i will try to re-write jshint using narcissus
# [00:02] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: "diff stuff" meaning, + var i; for (i in blah), - for (var i in blah)
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# [00:02] <antonkovalyov> so that i can add more stuff
# [00:03] <antonkovalyov> pratt parses is pretty limiting afaik
# [00:03] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, https://github.com/jshint/jshint/blob/master/CHANGELOG
# [00:03] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: ah, fair enough, :)
# [00:03] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: I should've RTFM'ed, eh?
# [00:03] <danbeam> :)
# [00:04] <antonkovalyov> ha
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# [00:07] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: cool that you've been doing so much with this
# [00:07] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: any pull requests on the Crock yet? :P
# [00:08] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, i made one with a simple typo fix
# [00:08] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, he said "Thanks" and closed it
# [00:08] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: haha
# [00:08] <antonkovalyov> dunno if he actually merged it
# [00:08] <antonkovalyov> at least he didn't call me stupid :)
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# [00:09] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: he might be interested in some of the tolerate options you've added
# [00:09] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: but alot of them are probably things he wouldn't like, lol
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# [00:09] <antonkovalyov> i dont have a lot of time nowadays but i kind of want to make a couple of pull requests just for fun
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# [00:09] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: heh
# [00:10] <antonkovalyov> only those that won't give him a heart attack of course
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# [00:17] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: have you done much with the CSS linting abilities of JSLint?
# [00:19] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, i removed it :)
# [00:19] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: heh
# [00:19] <antonkovalyov> nobody uses css/html linters
# [00:19] <antonkovalyov> less code, less bugs
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# [00:19] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: they should, :P
# [00:19] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: I've been thinking of doing this
# [00:19] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: but there are things that already exist
# [00:19] <antonkovalyov> nicholas zakas has some linter he wrote
# [00:19] <antonkovalyov> he promised to release it one day :)
# [00:19] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: parser or linter?
# [00:20] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, linter
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# [00:22] <danbeam> oh lawd, and I just stumbled on this list - https://github.com/nzakas/parser-lib/blob/master/src/css/Colors.js - for the CSS minifier I have in the works, :)
# [00:26] <paul_irish> you're gonna write a new minifier?
# [00:26] <danbeam> paul_irish: erm, well, I'm working on a new version of YUI Compressor that does more than just .replaceAll() a bajillion times
# [00:26] <danbeam> paul_irish: but it's not for Y!, just in my free time
# [00:27] <paul_irish> oookayyyyy
# [00:27] <danbeam> paul_irish: it's also not done yet, but it's using ANTLR
# [00:27] <danbeam> paul_irish: inb4 "but check out this awesome one that's way better than yours and is already done!"
# [00:27] <paul_irish> word is CssCompressor in php is the smallest
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# [00:27] <paul_irish> damn you were in inb4
# [00:27] <danbeam> ;)
# [00:28] <danbeam> paul_irish: damn, this looks awesome
# [00:28] <paul_irish> i used it for h5bp for a little while
# [00:28] <paul_irish> its very nice
# [00:28] <paul_irish> has a good test suite
# [00:28] <danbeam> paul_irish: the only thing that this doesn't have is YUI Compressor's user base, ;)
# [00:28] <paul_irish> yuicompressor is slacking
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# [00:28] <danbeam> paul_irish: agreed
# [00:28] <danbeam> paul_irish: that's why I started messing with it
# [00:29] <paul_irish> you know we got a fulltime eng on closurecompiler ?
# [00:29] <paul_irish> FULL TIME, brah
# [00:29] <danbeam> paul_irish: the books dude?
# [00:29] <paul_irish> wha
# [00:29] <danbeam> paul_irish: that I met at I/O?
# [00:29] <danbeam> paul_irish: last year?
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# [00:29] <paul_irish> no idea. his name is... Alan.
# [00:30] <paul_irish> he's been on it for a long while
# [00:30] <danbeam> paul_irish: Nathan Naze
# [00:30] <danbeam> paul_irish: Nathan is a software engineer at Google. He works on user interface for Google Books, one of many projects using Closure Library. Open sourcing Closure Library was his 20% project with Daniel Nadasi. He joined Google in 2005 after graduating from the University of Wisconsin with majors in computer science, political science, and economics. He lives in San Francisco.
# [00:30] <paul_irish> oh naze. yeah he works on closure but i guess not the compiler anymore
# [00:30] <danbeam> paul_irish: word
# [00:30] <paul_irish> yah closure library
# [00:30] <danbeam> paul_irish: I think Closure Compiler dominates in JS
# [00:30] <danbeam> paul_irish: is there a CSS minifier as well?
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# [00:30] <paul_irish> no
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# [00:31] <danbeam> paul_irish: that's why I'm still writing one then, :)
# [00:31] <danbeam> paul_irish: but yeah, I've been looking a bit into minification and graph search/topological sort lately
# [00:31] <danbeam> paul_irish: cool areas
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# [00:32] <danbeam> paul_irish: closure compiler is great because is actually visits all your code to catch dead code
# [00:32] <danbeam> paul_irish: assuming this is with graph search
# [00:33] <paul_irish> wassup nick highlighter
# [00:33] <paul_irish> danbeam: you should um.. merge the two projects :)
# [00:34] <paul_irish> also Alan said he optimizes CC's output for gzip
# [00:34] <danbeam> paul_irish: yeah, I'd be interested in looking into that too
# [00:34] <paul_irish> so some things like !0 instead of `true` make sense in normal land but not in gzip-world
# [00:34] <paul_irish> so CC doesnt do it
# [00:34] <danbeam> paul_irish: well, !0 instead of true would be fine if huffman encodig handles this
# [00:35] <danbeam> paul_irish: if you inline every true to !0 you still only need 1 entry for !0 like you would for true, afaik
# [00:35] <danbeam> paul_irish: in the library
# [00:36] <danbeam> paul_irish: but I'm assuming he'd know the downside that I'm not thinking of, ;)
# [00:36] <paul_irish> bro is like all up in the gzip and lza or whatever specs
# [00:36] <danbeam> paul_irish: yeah, I believe you
# [00:36] <danbeam> haha
# [00:37] <danbeam> paul_irish: I is all up in the CSS specs, fixin' lex errors and emailing Tantek, :P
# [00:37] <danbeam> paul_irish: flex*
# [00:37] <paul_irish> niiiice
# [00:37] <paul_irish> danbeam++
# [00:38] <danbeam> paul_irish: do I need to keep optimizing myself? ++danbeam? :P jk
# [00:38] <grantg> heh
# [00:38] <grantg> only if you use a 90s compiler
# [00:38] <grantg> :P
# [00:38] <danbeam> it's guaranteed to be faster or as fast
# [00:39] <grantg> yeah
# [00:39] <danbeam> but I agree, any non-shitty compiler would notice this
# [00:39] <grantg> due to what it does
# [00:39] <danbeam> I want to stinkbomb whoever started the concept of for loops ending in i++
# [00:39] <danbeam> not ++i
# [00:39] <grantg> Another optimization many overlook: You can do multiplication by left-shift
# [00:40] <grantg> when you just need some multiplication by a multiple of 2
# [00:40] <grantg> for an int
# [00:40] <danbeam> grantg: yup, or division
# [00:40] <grantg> doubled = single << 1;
# [00:40] <grantg> yeah
# [00:41] <danbeam> grantg: explain this optimization - ((n - 1) & n) == 0
# [00:41] <danbeam> grantg: well, not sure if it's an optimization over an alternate way of doing this, but kinda funny
# [00:42] <grantg> I smell sign-bit
# [00:42] <danbeam> grantg: also what does this mean - 0x5f3759df
# [00:42] <danbeam> :)
# [00:42] <danbeam> not quite
# [00:42] <grantg> heh
# [00:42] <danbeam> (protip: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root)
# [00:42] <grantg> heh
# [00:43] <danbeam> I wonder if the ALU detects you're dividing by 2 that it just bitshifts anyways...
# [00:43] <danbeam> prolly
# [00:43] <grantg> compilers can optimize the / 2 to a << 1 sometimes
# [00:43] <grantg> I mean * 2
# [00:43] <grantg> :P
# [00:43] <grantg> / 2 is >> 1
# [00:43] <grantg> :P
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# [00:45] <grantg> Is that a negative sign or just a dash to separate? :P
# [00:45] <danbeam> sorry, just dash
# [00:45] <danbeam> not -
# [00:45] <grantg> ahahaha
# [00:46] <danbeam> sorry, that would be confusing
# [00:46] <danbeam> if anybody happens to think of any cool CSS byte savers, the help is more than welcomed - https://gist.github.com/790723
# [00:46] <danbeam> (got a few already, but I'm sure there will be more, have been looking through all the open source compressors as well)
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# [00:50] <grantg> hey danbeam, that equation also differs on unsigned logic. :P
# [00:50] <danbeam> grantg: yeah, that's true
# [00:50] <grantg> signed or unsigned?
# [00:50] <danbeam> grantg: unsigned, let's say
# [00:50] <danbeam> grantg: it only differs on the boundaries, yeah?
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# [00:51] <danbeam> grantg: well, actually, I think it'd work in signed as well...
# [00:51] <grantg> eh
# [00:51] <danbeam> grantg: and long as you're not messing with the LSB or MSB (depending on the Endian) shouldn't matter
# [00:51] <grantg> just remember there's the sign bit in signed
# [00:51] <danbeam> (afaik)
# [00:51] <grantg> heh
# [00:52] <danbeam> surmised what it does yet?
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# [00:54] <grantg> (0x80 - 1) & 0x80 is 0, (0x7F - 1) & 0x7F is 0x7E
# [00:54] <grantg> So hex boundary stuff
# [00:55] <grantg> overflow logic
# [00:55] <danbeam> yup
# [00:55] <danbeam> what does that mean when you're using binary to represent numbers?
# [00:56] <grantg> Are you talking BCD?
# [00:56] <danbeam> BCD?
# [00:56] <danbeam> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary-coded_decimal ah
# [00:57] <grantg> heh
# [00:57] <danbeam> no, just binary
# [00:57] <grantg> because CPUs do 0-F natively and not 0-9. :P
# [00:57] <grantg> So sometimes you need BCD to do 0-9
# [00:58] <danbeam> yeah, I see what you mean, but no - a computer generally won't use hex nor decimal
# [00:58] <danbeam> afaik, just binary
# [00:58] <grantg> I know
# [00:58] <danbeam> you're very very close, and sorry if this is annoying, heh
# [00:59] <grantg> what are you asking?
# [00:59] <grantg> Probably something really easy I can't determine from these questions. :P
# [00:59] <danbeam> ((n - 1) & n) == 0 ; // means divisble by 2
# [01:00] <grantg> heh
# [01:00] <danbeam> in a binary system
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# [01:00] <grantg> Y U NO JUST (n >> 1) == (n / 2)
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# [01:01] <danbeam> Y NO NO JUST N % 2 == 0 ?
# [01:01] <grantg> lololol
# [01:01] <grantg> depends if there's an opcode for modulus. ;)
# [01:01] <danbeam> 15:38 < danbeam> grantg: well, not sure if it's an optimization over an alternate way of doing this, but kinda funny
# [01:01] <grantg> heh
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# [01:01] <danbeam> Y U NO**
# [01:01] <grantg> heh
# [01:02] <grantg> (void *) forever_a_void
# [01:02] <danbeam> Y U NO SLL $2
# [01:03] <danbeam> ohohoh who knows the opcode? :P
# [01:03] <grantg> Funny thoughm this is why doing assmebly programming can be faster
# [01:03] <grantg> *though
# [01:03] <grantg> Because abstrations of the CPU can get slow
# [01:03] <danbeam> yup
# [01:03] <grantg> *abstractions
# [01:03] <grantg> compilers
# [01:03] <danbeam> should do that for you, yes, :P
# [01:03] <grantg> compilers *try* to optimize
# [01:04] <grantg> and some like GCC are "smart" with a dictionary type lookup for optimizations
# [01:04] * tw2113 should consider some gists for code snippets he has stored in evernote
# [01:04] <grantg> but overall program optimizations for runtime can not always be done in GCC
# [01:04] <grantg> etc
# [01:04] <danbeam> grantg: http://ref.x86asm.net/coder32.html#x0F71_6
# [01:05] <danbeam> muhaha
# [01:05] <grantg> things of coding simply can be really slow unless you sometimes do mind-fuck stuff
# [01:05] * danbeam has pissed off every web developer in the room, :P
# [01:05] <grantg> which many C/C++ coders avoid
# [01:05] <grantg> sometimes
# [01:05] * danbeam is a web developer, so he's pissed himself off as well
# [01:06] <tw2113> how'd you manage this dan?
# [01:06] <grantg> Y U NO LOOKUP ARM OPCODE TOO?
# [01:06] <danbeam> lol
# [01:06] <bpadalino> why are people pissed off?
# [01:06] <danbeam> tw2113: by talking about the bits over the tubes
# [01:06] <danbeam> they're not
# [01:06] <bpadalino> oh, ok
# [01:06] * danbeam was just kidding
# [01:07] <bpadalino> weird talking about such low level stuff for an html5 channel
# [01:07] <tw2113> *shrugs*
# [01:07] <danbeam> bpadalino: that's what I mean, lol
# [01:07] <bpadalino> i don't understand the divisible by 2 thing unless it's a bit manipulation of floating point numbers
# [01:07] <danbeam> 10000 - 1 = 01111
# [01:07] <danbeam> 10000 & 01111 = 0
# [01:08] <grantg> bpadalino: AND bitwise logic
# [01:08] <danbeam> 10000 = 16 in decimal
# [01:08] <tw2113> i figure primary topic is html5/new web stuff
# [01:08] <grantg> and rollovers
# [01:08] <tw2113> but subtopics are web dev in general
# [01:08] <grantg> bit carry. ^_^
# [01:08] <danbeam> tw2113: lol, yeah, we departed a bit
# [01:08] <danbeam> I'll shut up, :)
# [01:08] <bpadalino> why do the subtraction instead of just & with immediate 1 ?
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# [01:09] <grantg> try to do division or modulus on a gameboy's CPU and wait f o r e v e r
# [01:09] <bpadalino> is sub & compare quicker than & immediate compare
# [01:09] <danbeam> bpadalino: why not just n % 2 == 0
# [01:09] <bpadalino> modulus is terrible
# [01:09] <danbeam> bpadalino: or !n % 2
# [01:09] <grantg> there is no opcode for division, multiplication or modulus on the GB CPU
# [01:09] <grantg> only the usual bitwise logic groups, adding, and subtracting
# [01:09] <danbeam> isn't % just fancy bitwise math?
# [01:09] <bpadalino> but you're just testing if the lsb is 0 ?
# [01:10] <danbeam> lsb of the value, yeah
# [01:10] <danbeam> well
# [01:10] <danbeam> no
# [01:10] <danbeam> haha
# [01:10] <grantg> danbeam: modulus ignores bit boundaries
# [01:10] <grantg> for bitwise logic
# [01:11] <bpadalino> it's testing if it's a power of 2, not divisible .. right ?
# [01:11] <danbeam> grantg: ok
# [01:11] <danbeam> bpadalino: yes
# [01:11] <bpadalino> ok, that makes more sense then
# [01:11] <danbeam> the only reason it works is because numbers are binary on a 'puter (for now)
# [01:11] <grantg> yo dawg, at least the gameboy's CPU has an opcode for ++n
# [01:12] <grantg> so it can do it in one opcode
# [01:12] <danbeam> when we're using more qubits we'll talk again, muhaha
# [01:12] <grantg> INC and DEC opcodes AWWW YEEEEEAH
# [01:12] <danbeam> paul_irish: inb4 "but Google has one in Canada that works on Goggles image processing!"
# [01:12] <danbeam> AWWWWWWW YEAHHHHHHH
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# [01:13] <bpadalino> from what i understand about qubits is that it's all probability - so you have to run the calculation many times, and take the probabilities of the outputs and you get the calculation
# [01:13] <grantg> and 'le gameboy's stack space (when not moving the SP register directly) is only 0x7F bytes
# [01:14] <grantg> you will die when trying to do a bizillion local vars inside subroutines in the GB-Z80
# [01:14] <danbeam> grantg: I'm sorry you had to know this at one point
# [01:14] <grantg> heh
# [01:14] <bpadalino> how did the gameboy programming conversation start? still blowing my mind how this topic would come up here
# [01:14] <danbeam> grantg: also, this isn't super disimilar to early mobile devices
# [01:14] <danbeam> small stacks
# [01:14] <grantg> heh
# [01:14] <grantg> though
# [01:15] <grantg> you CAN move the SP around
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# [01:15] <grantg> so you can kind of manually "move it around" when going into sub-routines so you can have lots of stack freedom
# [01:15] <danbeam> grantg: realistically, fuck moving stack pointers and assembly day-to-day
# [01:16] <grantg> heh
# [01:16] * danbeam goes back to his JavaScript-ing
# [01:16] <grantg> people still sometimes think of SPs as one big block, nope
# [01:16] <grantg> you can manually change that number, just like any other reg
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# [01:17] <grantg> mindfuck the assembly code. :P
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# [01:18] <grantg> too bad C/C++ hide a lot of this in a big abstraction
# [01:18] <grantg> it's these "little things" that sometimes pass by
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# [01:19] <grantg> for optimizing code
# [01:19] <bpadalino> why not just inline your assembly from the C call ?
# [01:19] <bpadalino> it's all self contained
# [01:20] <bpadalino> what was the last optimization you had to write in assembly and why ?
# [01:20] <grantg> bpadalino: How many lines of asm do you see embedded day-to-day in C code that touch manually moving the SP around?
# [01:21] <bpadalino> i don't see much c code - i manly do vhdl .. but i've seen it done plenty of times
# [01:21] <grantg> heh
# [01:21] <bpadalino> as long as it's placed back before you return, it seems fine
# [01:22] <grantg> This is only needed I guess in small stack spaces or local-variable manip
# [01:23] <bpadalino> sure, or if you have static state that isn't part of the main machine that you want to keep around .. switch contexts .. whatever you want
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# [01:23] <grantg> you can overwrite part of the last stack without manually "popping" it
# [01:24] <bpadalino> yep
# [01:25] <grantg> manipulate local variables for parent sub-routines the fast way. :)
# [01:25] <grantg> only really necessary on slow pus
# [01:25] <grantg> *slow CPUs
# [01:26] <grantg> Most people don't need to give a f**k
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# [01:27] <grantg> coding for small memory space and slow-CPUs I guess just makes the programmer aware of the constraints
# [01:29] <grantg> because "simple" abstractions can push/pop a lot from the stack when something simpler can be done
# [01:29] <grantg> etc
# [01:30] <danbeam> yup
# [01:30] <danbeam> g2g, nice talkin the bits over the tubes with ya' grantg & bpadalino
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# [01:30] <grantg> alright
# [01:31] <grantg> now back go html5 before the rest of this chan flees
# [01:31] <tw2113> so you're going to let it go silent for an hour or two?
# [01:32] <bpadalino> is that what usually happens ?
# [01:32] <grantg> nah
# [01:32] <grantg> People randomly message paul_irish or blurt steve holt a.k.a. \0/
# [01:32] <tw2113> depends on if people are talkative or busy with other things
# [01:33] <tw2113> o'doyle rules!
# [01:33] <tw2113> <---old school
# [01:34] <grantg> omfg, I forgot it's 4/20
# [01:35] <tw2113> hitler's birthday, columbine anniversary, stoner day, other things
# [01:35] <grantg> heh
# [01:35] <grantg> I don't smoke weed, but I know a hella lot who do
# [01:35] * tw2113 adds #github to autojoin
# [01:35] <bpadalino> bp oil spill anniversary
# [01:36] <tw2113> has it been a year already for that bpadalino ?
# [01:36] <grantg> I even know some pot houses
# [01:36] <bpadalino> yep
# [01:36] <tw2113> which ironically is the start of your ID too
# [01:36] <bpadalino> it is indeed
# [01:36] <grantg> Weeds (the show) IRL <---
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# [01:37] <grantg> pot houses in middle-class neighborhoods TOTALLY.
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# [01:37] <grantg> you'd never know...
# [01:37] <tw2113> MAN!, i was 1 off from being @github's 29k'th follower
# [01:37] <grantg> tw2113: lolwut
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# [01:38] <tw2113> i just started following their twitter account, and it reads 28,999 followers
# [01:38] <tw2113> :O
# [01:38] <tw2113> i needed to hit refresh
# [01:38] <tw2113> i'm number 29,000 :D
# [01:38] * Quits: adrinux (~adrinux@93.89.134.219) (Client Quit)
# [01:39] <tw2113> damn it, maybe not
# [01:40] <grantg> [child hood spoiler] http://i.imgur.com/rvsn0.jpg [/spoiler]
# [01:47] <grantg> silence
# [01:47] <grantg> is
# [01:47] <grantg> platinum
# [01:48] <tw2113> silence wouldn't quickly pay off the US debt
# [01:49] <grantg> meanwhile in the midwest - http://i.imgur.com/rBf1c.png
# [01:53] <grantg> What apps on iOS have come to - http://i.imgur.com/OlIb7.jpg
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# [01:55] <grantg> Iraq is now a ghetto of america- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK0iBqu2nCU
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# [01:57] <grantg> #html5 = #reddit_without_IRC_trolls
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# [01:59] <tw2113> #html5 = good for self conversation :D
# [02:00] <grantg> posting random links no one will click on FTFY
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# [02:59] <Misiur> Let's idle some more
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# [07:26] <paul_irish> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/techchron/detail?entry_id=87452 Firefox developer to open San Francisco office
# [07:26] <paul_irish> fancy.
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# [07:27] <thatryan> hey paul how goes it
# [07:27] <paul_irish> sgood
# [07:28] <thatryan> conference was awesome
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# [07:29] <paul_irish> this is in the mozilla office : http://goo.gl/4vhv9 http://cdni.wired.co.uk/620x258/k_n/mozillagooglespreadfinal%20copy_620x258.jpg
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# [07:29] <paul_irish> pretty ... sweet
# [07:30] <thatryan> lol what is the damn ie building doing in the background
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# [07:56] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: hahah
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# [07:56] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: I re-activated...
# [07:57] <niftylettuce> paul_irish: :)
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# [08:00] <paul_irish> WOOOO
# [08:00] <paul_irish> activation
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# [08:52] <Zeddy> i cant get my ultra simple offline test to work
# [08:52] <Zeddy> http://www.kokonniemi.fi/bitbenders/offline.html
# [08:52] <Zeddy> whats wrong?
# [08:52] <Zeddy> <html lang="en" manifest="offline.appcache">
# [08:52] <Zeddy> and then i have http://www.kokonniemi.fi/bitbenders/offline.appcache
# [08:52] <Zeddy> i realise i shouldn't even have to define offline.html in the manifest
# [08:53] <Zeddy> but i just tried that to see if it helps, it didn't
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# [08:55] <ryanseddon> Zeddy: Your mime type is wrong
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# [08:56] <ryanseddon> manifest files need to be fed through as text/cache-manifest mime type
# [08:57] <Zeddy> how do i define that? :o
# [08:57] <ryanseddon> On your server either through the admin controls or you edit the config files directly
# [08:57] <ryanseddon> What server stack are you using?
# [08:58] <Zeddy> u mean the .htaccess?
# [08:58] <ryanseddon> no
# [08:58] <Zeddy> ok..
# [08:58] <ryanseddon> mime.types config file
# [08:58] <Zeddy> cos i allready added AddType text/cache-manifest .manifest
# [08:58] <ryanseddon> That should work
# [08:58] <Zeddy> well i have a hosted server with cpanel working
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# [08:58] <Zeddy> no idea where the mime.types config file is located
# [08:59] <ryanseddon> Running your file through this handy tool says it's text/plain http://web-sniffer.net/
# [08:59] <Zeddy> if i can even change it
# [08:59] <ryanseddon> cpanel will allow youto add custom mime types
# [08:59] <Zeddy> that says Content-Type: text/plain
# [08:59] <danbeam> Zeddy: came in late, but /etc/mime.types if you have access to the whole box / VPS
# [09:00] <Zeddy> i can view /etc/
# [09:00] <Zeddy> but i dont see the file in there
# [09:00] <Zeddy> theres just an ftpquota file
# [09:00] <danbeam> lame
# [09:01] <ryanseddon> Just login to cpanel and go to the mime types section and add it that way
# [09:02] <Zeddy> oh duh
# [09:02] <Zeddy> :D
# [09:02] <Zeddy> so i add text/cache-manifest : appcache
# [09:02] <Zeddy> ?
# [09:03] <Zeddy> actually when i view mime types
# [09:03] <ryanseddon> yep
# [09:03] <Zeddy> the one from my htaccess file is allredy there
# [09:03] <Zeddy> under user defined mime types, it says: text/cache-manifest .manifest
# [09:03] <ryanseddon> but that's for .manifest files you've named yours .appcache
# [09:03] <Zeddy> should it say only manifest?
# [09:03] <Zeddy> oh haha
# [09:04] <Zeddy> thats what you get for blindly following two different tutorials
# [09:04] <Zeddy> but .appcache is going to be the extension to use?
# [09:05] <ryanseddon> it can be any extension you want just as long as it's fed through as text/cache-manifest
# [09:05] <Zeddy> oh yes
# [09:05] <Zeddy> it works :p
# [09:05] <Zeddy> great stuff!
# [09:06] <Zeddy> so anyone here who has tested html5 app cache on mobile devices?
# [09:06] <Zeddy> im still trying to figure out how much you can cache
# [09:06] <ryanseddon> 5mb
# [09:06] <Zeddy> ok, is 5mb the total for my whole domain?
# [09:06] <ryanseddon> yes
# [09:07] <Zeddy> wtf, thats lame as hell
# [09:08] <Zeddy> I have the same problem on iPhone. On iPad though I figured a turn around. If your manifest contains files less than 5MB the first time and you update the cache by window.applicationCache.update() and before doing the update you increase the manifest files to be below 10mb it will work. If you continue doing that (increasing the manifest by <5MB each time and then update()) you will see that
# [09:08] <Zeddy> the iPad can cache more than the 5MB limit.
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# [09:10] <Zeddy> i read somewhere that someone with a iOS app who ported it to a webapp somehow generated several page in order to bypass that limit
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# [09:12] <Zeddy> http://www.mobilenoter.com/blog/post/2010/04/06/Removing-size-limit-of-a-page.aspx
# [09:12] <Zeddy> there we have it
# [09:13] <ryanseddon> Is that anything to do appcache?
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# [09:14] <Zeddy> wtf, now that you mention it, i guess not.. i just found the link on many google group discussions where they were talking about the 5mb limit :P
# [09:15] <Zeddy> i will have an interesting time trying to cram a jquerymobile page with a mapview and POI multimedia into 5mb
# [09:15] <ryanseddon> It's more about the page weight the iPhone can handle
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# [09:16] <Zeddy> however i think it will be possible, i just need to figure out how to take images and mp3s in php and resize them alot
# [09:16] <ryanseddon> you can't store audio in appcache on the ipHone
# [09:17] <Zeddy> the idea here is to have wifi hotspots for toursits, where it instructs them to go to www.mylocaltourguide.com, and have their browser cache the whole thing and let them start their guided tour without a connection
# [09:17] <Zeddy> cant you do that on android?
# [09:17] <danbeam> paul_irish: Incoming feature request - Is it really that hard to put a "Copy URL..." button for each download in downloads tab in Chrome? It pisses me off to no end that I can't get a 301/302'ed link easily (without having to fucking curl -I link | grep Location)
# [09:18] <paul_irish> hm
# [09:18] <ryanseddon> Probably
# [09:18] <Zeddy> allthouth android still doesn't support html5 audio tag
# [09:18] <Zeddy> which i just cant get through my mind
# [09:18] <ryanseddon> There is a fair disconnect between android browser and Chrome
# [09:18] <Zeddy> i basically want it to start playing a sound file when a user walks past a POI
# [09:19] <paul_irish> danbeam: Open, Always Open Files of the Type, Show In Finder, *Copy URL to Clipboard*, Cancel
# [09:19] <paul_irish> ?
# [09:19] <paul_irish> oh
# [09:19] <paul_irish> downloads tab
# [09:19] <Zeddy> is there any way to tell the appcache to cache all images on a page?
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# [09:20] <ryanseddon> You could make the appcache file be generated by the backend
# [09:20] <paul_irish> danbeam: in downloads tab i rightclick the link and its got copy URL
# [09:20] <danbeam> paul_irish: where is first "Open"?
# [09:20] <Zeddy> ryanseddon, yes thats what im thinking of doing
# [09:20] <danbeam> paul_irish: what is that URL?
# [09:20] <paul_irish> uh what
# [09:20] <danbeam> paul_irish: local chrome://
# [09:20] <paul_irish> chrome://downloads/
# [09:20] <danbeam> paul_irish: yup
# [09:20] <danbeam> paul_irish: not super useful, IMO
# [09:21] <danbeam> paul_irish: cool to click on the file to open it, sure
# [09:21] <paul_irish> you want a clickable button to save you from rightclicking?
# [09:21] <danbeam> paul_irish: or just make the URL you downloaded it from a link...
# [09:21] <paul_irish> it is?
# [09:21] <paul_irish> http://paulirish.com/i/11b1.png
# [09:21] <danbeam> paul_irish: div.url's on download page
# [09:22] <danbeam> paul_irish: initializr isn't, though, rigth?
# [09:22] <danbeam> paul_irish: right*
# [09:22] <paul_irish> o
# [09:22] <paul_irish> oh
# [09:22] <paul_irish> gotcha
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# [09:22] <danbeam> paul_irish: yup
# [09:22] <paul_irish> file the ticket plz
# [09:23] <paul_irish> http://new.crbug.com
# [09:23] <paul_irish> i'm writing a conf trip report now
# [09:23] <paul_irish> so ill pretend you told me this at the conf
# [09:23] <danbeam> paul_irish: ok
# [09:23] <danbeam> paul_irish: heh
# [09:23] <paul_irish> also mention that the big download button on the downloads bar should ass this to its little menu
# [09:23] <paul_irish> Open, Always Open Files of the Type, Show In Finder, *Copy URL to Clipboard*, Cancel
# [09:23] <danbeam> paul_irish: what conf and I'll search for it first, just to not DUPE
# [09:23] <paul_irish> jquery conf
# [09:24] <danbeam> paul_irish: ah, cool
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# [09:24] <danbeam> paul_irish: which "Template" should I squeeze this feature request into, lol? (all seem to be about defects)
# [09:25] <danbeam> paul_irish: one sec, somebody *has* to have asked for this before
# [09:26] <paul_irish> you use the defect template and just. change enough text to make it work as a FR
# [09:26] <danbeam> paul_irish: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=63445&q=copy%20link&sort=-type%20feature&colspec=ID%20Stars%20Pri%20Area%20Feature%20Type%20Status%20Summary%20Modified%20Owner%20Mstone%20OS
# [09:26] <danbeam> paul_irish: yup
# [09:27] <paul_irish> bummer
# [09:27] <danbeam> paul_irish: just made bookmarklet to fix, AWWWWW YEAHHHHHHHh
# [09:27] <paul_irish> sexyhot
# [09:28] <danbeam> paul_irish: also just tried ChromeOS tonight
# [09:28] <danbeam> paul_irish: interesting
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# [09:35] <Zeddy> why is it that when i use cahce manifest, and add something to my html file (like a new image) it doesn't update the page even when im connected?
# [09:35] <Zeddy> its like it was constantly using the manifest file even though im online
# [09:35] <paul_irish> it is.
# [09:35] <paul_irish> most people hate that fact
# [09:36] <paul_irish> but thats seemingly how it was designed
# [09:36] <paul_irish> i couldnt tell you why
# [09:36] <Zeddy> so theres no way to bypass that? :P
# [09:37] <Zeddy> anyhows i just got my android to cache two 3.5mb images
# [09:37] <ryanseddon> you need to swapCache then reload to see cache updates
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# [09:39] <Zeddy> okay
# [09:39] <Zeddy> would it be possible to have multiple subdomains and get 5mb for each of those? :p
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# [09:40] <ryanseddon> No, doesn't work like localStorage
# [09:40] <Zeddy> so it just gives mydomain.com 5Mb ?
# [09:40] <Zeddy> MB*
# [09:41] <ryanseddon> Well 5MB is only a recommendation it's upto the browser to decide what they want to offer
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# [09:41] <Zeddy> would be cool to have separate manifest files for each subdomain and then programtically have it redirect from page to page to get it to cache each subdomains pages
# [09:41] <Zeddy> so its also up to the browser to decide how it handles subdomains?
# [09:42] <Zeddy> im just thinking about some hostin server where they have user1.hostingserver.com and user2.hostingserver.com, will these guys have to share the same 5MB limit, because thats just weird
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# [09:44] <ryanseddon> Not sure, would be worth testing to see if they are seperate or the manifest gets overridden
# [09:45] <Zeddy> yeah, and you'd have to test that on all the different browsers around
# [09:46] <Zeddy> i think i'll test that on android now
# [09:46] <Zeddy> would be nice to get my hands on an iphone for testing purposes, but no way im buying one
# [09:47] <ryanseddon> signup to perfectomobile.com
# [09:47] <ryanseddon> http://www.perfectomobile.com/portal/cms/opera.xhtml?key=OP631R89YL2 gets you 7 hours free testing
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# [09:49] <paul_irish> oOo
# [09:49] <danbeam> paul_irish: there's also a window.console.log('results'); lying around on the downloads page, lol
# [09:49] <paul_irish> lol
# [09:50] <danbeam> paul_irish: I guess Chrome ... guarantees results! --danbeam;
# [09:52] <danbeam> yyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhHH!
# [09:52] <Zeddy> ryanseddon: thanks!
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# [09:54] <Zeddy> wtf, even when i update the manifest file, it still doesn't fetch the new image i added
# [09:54] <Zeddy> so i need to add javascript to handle this dont i?
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# [10:05] <Zeddy> hmm
# [10:06] <Zeddy> apparently android and firefox both cache atleast 6MB of files :o
# [10:06] <Zeddy> i have two images, both 3MB and it caches them just fine
# [10:06] <Zeddy> on android i load the page, close the browser with advanced task killer, go into flight mode, open the browser and open my page, both images are tehre
# [10:07] <Zeddy> i even tried refreshing the page multiple times
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# [10:09] <Zeddy> http://www.kokonniemi.fi/bitbenders/offline.html
# [10:09] <Zeddy> at the moment i can cache all 3
# [10:11] <danbeam> paul_irish: are you allowed to run userscripts on chrome:// URLs?
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# [10:13] <Zeddeh> i keep forgetting to reconnect my PC
# [10:13] <Zeddeh> anyhows http://www.kokonniemi.fi/bitbenders/offline.html <- 10 MB cached, and works on android
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# [10:13] <Zeddeh> http://grinninggecko.com/developing-cross-platform-html5-offline-app-1/
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# [10:13] <paul_irish> danbeam: no idea
# [10:13] <Zeddy> and it says Safari Mobile (iOS): 10MB
# [10:14] <Zeddy> so basically i have 10MB to work with, not 5?
# [10:14] <Zeddy> i dont really care about desktop offline capability
# [10:15] <Zeddy> http://grinninggecko.com/developing-cross-platform-html5-offline-app-1/
# [10:15] <Zeddy> I’d never even considered splitting it up, likely because my app is built around a single HTML file with all functionality/navigation handled by JavaScript. But I just did some testing on the iOS Simulator and it appears that it is a per-manifest limit. So if you have 2 separate HTML files with 2 separate manifests, sitting in the same directory, they are considered separate applications, and
# [10:15] <Zeddy> the 10MB limit applies to each separately.
# [10:15] <Zeddy> <3
# [10:15] <Zeddy> how cool
# [10:15] <Zeddy> that means i can create 5 manifests file and get 50 megs ;)
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# [10:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: // <scheme> := '*' | 'http' | 'https' | 'file' | 'ftp' | 'chrome'
# [10:16] <danbeam> paul_irish: looks like it, :)
# [10:16] <paul_irish> woo
# [10:16] <danbeam> paul_irish: haha
# [10:16] <Zeddy> ill get like 10 pages of text in my theasus where i just go on about differenced between browsers ^_^
# [10:16] <danbeam> paul_irish: nvm, fuck - chrome:// -- we don't support chrome internal URLs
# [10:17] <Zeddy> i cant understand how Chrome Desktop can have a cache limit of 5MB when android browser has unlimited
# [10:17] <danbeam> I kind of would've been surprised if you were allowed to execute scripts on chrome:// -- that can click buttons that change user preferences, etc.
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# [10:23] <Zeddy> why is that when i clear my chrome cache, then visit my page http://www.kokonniemi.fi/bitbenders/offline.html i get the following files loaded into cache: offline.appcache, MMSposter-large.jpg, testimage.jpg, test3.png but it doesn't load the actual web page into cache offline.html
# [10:23] <Zeddy> this means i cannot access the page itself in offline mode
# [10:23] <Zeddy> i can however access the images directly
# [10:23] <Zeddy> i even have the line "offline.html" defined in my manifest
# [10:23] <Zeddy> and yet it doesn't cache it? :p
# [10:24] <Zeddy> can someone confirm this?
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# [10:27] <danbeam> paul_irish: so lame that I can't hack Chrome so easily, :P, but it's all good
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# [10:30] <henk_maaier> hello!
# [10:30] <danbeam> henk_maaier: yo
# [10:31] <henk_maaier> i'm in doubt, should i start this new project with html 5?
# [10:31] <danbeam> henk_maaier: yup, you should
# [10:31] <henk_maaier> i've downloaded the html5 boilerplate
# [10:31] <danbeam> henk_maaier: for no reason other than I said so
# [10:32] <henk_maaier> that's reason enough, thanks danbeam :)
# [10:32] <danbeam> henk_maaier: and otherwise someone might hit you with that HTML5 shield
# [10:32] <danbeam> henk_maaier: (and nobody wants that)
# [10:32] <henk_maaier> hahaha
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# [10:32] <henk_maaier> nah - is it too early to start with html5 for public projects?
# [10:32] <henk_maaier> as afaik most don't support html5 yet
# [10:33] <henk_maaier> and then you need javascript to compensate this, blabla
# [10:33] <danbeam> henk_maaier: first line of Google Docs <!DOCTYPE HTML>
# [10:34] <danbeam> henk_maaier: first line of Google Maps' source -
# [10:34] <danbeam> <!DOCTYPE html>
# [10:34] <danbeam> first line of Yahoo! Mail,
# [10:34] <henk_maaier> yeah well, do they also use the new html5 tags like <header> <footer> etc?
# [10:34] <danbeam> <!doctype html>
# [10:34] <danbeam> :)
# [10:34] <danbeam> henk_maaier: I know Yahoo! uses new tags, yup
# [10:34] <henk_maaier> i'm using that doctype too, for other projects
# [10:34] <danbeam> henk_maaier: and we wrap with an extra tag as well, with a similar class name
# [10:35] <henk_maaier> mhh?
# [10:35] <danbeam> henk_maaier: <div class="header"><header>Coool!</header></div>
# [10:35] <danbeam> henk_maaier: div.header, header { /* same style! */ }
# [10:35] <henk_maaier> aah
# [10:35] <danbeam> henk_maaier: well, around those lines
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# [10:36] <henk_maaier> the html5-boilerplate is using modernizr to support these tags in older browsers
# [10:36] <danbeam> (you obivously don't want to repeat styles)
# [10:36] <danbeam> yeah, you can use Modernizr's built in shims (pretty sure that's still there the last time I checked, right paul_irish?) or just the html shiv itself - http://code.google.com/p/html5shiv/
# [10:36] <danbeam> shiv*
# [10:37] <danbeam> https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/blob/master/modernizr.js#L901
# [10:37] <Eftarjin> display: block in CSS on relevant new elements and document.createElement in JS for IE is usually enough
# [10:37] <paul_irish> same shiv in both
# [10:37] <danbeam> paul_irish: yay, :>
# [10:37] <paul_irish> danbeam: do you subscribe to my blog?
# [10:37] <danbeam> paul_irish: negative
# [10:38] <paul_irish> DO EEET
# [10:38] <danbeam> paul_irish: but I saw the comment that these might be deprecated in Modernizr, right?
# [10:38] <henk_maaier> wewt, even the author of the html5-boilerplate is here :)
# [10:39] <danbeam> paul_irish: ah, maybe I was smoking crack - don't see anything about that now
# [10:39] <danbeam> paul_irish: naw, I simply troll too many JS libraries' code
# [10:39] <danbeam> (jQuery, YUI2/3, Sizzle, Env.js, Modernizr, Prototype, Mootools, etc. etc.)
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# [10:40] <henk_maaier> :)
# [10:40] <danbeam> paul_irish: by subscribe to it, you mean add the RSS feed?
# [10:42] <danbeam> paul_irish: to something like Google Reader? because obviously there's no RSS reader in my go to browser *cough* *cough*
# [10:42] <danbeam> paul_irish: also, how does it feel to be talking at a conference that accepted you and I as speakers but turned down Doug Crockford, lol?
# [10:43] <danbeam> (JSConf)
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# [10:53] <Zeddy> is there any addons for chrome where you can work in offline
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# [11:02] <Eftarjin> http://packages.python.org/Attest/install/ talks about convenience functions for testing HTML and XML (near the end) but I couldn’t find these functions, other than the XML reporter
# [11:04] <Eftarjin> oh, they’re in the deprecated Assert class
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# [11:35] <SaadIbrahim> #css
# [11:36] <SaadIbrahim> is this kind of shadow possible with css3? http://screensnapr.com/v/wSFnrQ.png
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# [11:55] <stenno_> i have a little question regarding <source> tags in <video> tags, am i understanding correct that if there are multiple <source> tags, if i call .load(), it will try to load one of them, if it doesn't succeed it will choose the next one, etc...? by this, does it automatically set the .src attribute?
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# [11:57] <danbeam> stenno_: that's a darn good question
# [11:57] <danbeam> stenno_: unfortunately I have no idea, :(
# [11:57] <stenno_> :)
# [11:57] <stenno_> maybe i will just try it out and post the results ;)
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# [12:26] <Zeddy> wtf
# [12:26] <Zeddy> if i cache more then 5 megs with Chrome
# [12:26] <Zeddy> it just leaves out random stuff
# [12:26] <Zeddy> for example, it cached the 7MB images, but not the .html file
# [12:26] <Zeddy> thats absurd
# [12:28] <stenno_> chrome seems to screw up hard their caching stuff
# [12:29] <stenno_> sometimes i have to close the tab and start it new again for updating my javascript
# [12:29] <stenno_> just clearing the cache doesn't work
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# [12:35] <Zeddy> lol
# [12:35] <Zeddy> and here i thought chrome was one of the best browsers, how wrong i was
# [12:35] <Zeddy> http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/04/21/one-step-closer-to-first-nokia-device-built-on-windows-phone/?cid=ncomblogs-fw-scl-na-eng-na-facebook-g0-20-bsm
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# [13:08] <stenno_> alright!
# [13:10] <stenno_> if the src of a <source> tag does not exist, it jumps to the next <source> tag
# [13:10] <stenno_> however, it does not set the .src attribute of the video :/
# [13:14] <kadiks> src does not exist for video but for source tag
# [13:14] <kadiks> the video tag will select automatically the right source tag
# [13:15] <stenno_> right
# [13:15] <stenno_> i found a way though, using oncanplay and onerror to set the src of the video
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# [13:22] <stenno_> oh wait
# [13:22] <stenno_> oncanplay on <source> does not work as i would expected it
# [13:26] <stenno_> arg
# [13:27] <stenno_> i can only use onerror() to check if it _doesn't_ work
# [13:27] <stenno_> there is no onload() or oncanplay() for <source> :(
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# [13:27] <stenno_> (at least it wont be triggered)
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# [13:29] <stenno_> even video.oncanplay does not work
# [13:29] <stenno_> is not triggered
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# [13:31] <stenno_> grr this is really a pita
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# [14:23] <Ms2ger> stenno_, isn't there a video.currentSrc that would do what you want?
# [14:23] <stenno_> yes
# [14:23] <stenno_> i just figured that out :)
# [14:23] <stenno_> thanks anyway
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# [14:24] <stenno_> also there was a problem with the event binding in chrome
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# [16:10] <Zeddy> Hey, can you create subdomains on the fly somehow?
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# [16:10] <Zeddy> i'd like to get subdomains for each language my site is available in, but the list of languages can change :p
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# [16:12] <stenno_> hmm, is there any priority on which source to load if i have several <source> tags in my <video> tag? i hoped it would start with the first child, but it doesn't....
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# [16:14] <Ms2ger> It should
# [16:14] <Ms2ger> (IIRC)
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# [16:14] <stenno_> it takes last-child!
# [16:15] <stenno_> strange
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# [16:15] <stenno_> maybe its chrome-specific
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# [16:19] <stenno_> grr
# [16:19] <stenno_> indeed firefox takes the first child
# [16:19] <stenno_> oh wait
# [16:19] <stenno_> no
# [16:20] <stenno_> it takes the last child too
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# [16:29] <humph_> stenno_: in our code (ff) we work down the list of <source> elements
# [16:29] <humph_> and use the first we can
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# [16:41] <stenno> humph_, could you elaborate on that? i have a <video> with three <source>s
# [16:41] <stenno> what do you mean with "working down the list" ?
# [16:41] <humph_> I can show you the code
# [16:41] <humph_> sec
# [16:41] <stenno> thanks!
# [16:42] <humph_> https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/content/src/nsHTMLMediaElement.cpp#734
# [16:42] <humph_> that's what firefox does
# [16:42] <humph_> see also ::GetNextSource()
# [16:42] <stenno> thank you!
# [16:42] <humph_> what doest he spec say on this?
# [16:43] <stenno> good question
# [16:43] * humph_ wonders how the order of these gets put into the list
# [16:43] <humph_> it might be that we load the list in reverse
# [16:43] <humph_> but we pick from it in order
# [16:43] <humph_> if you see what I mean
# [16:44] <humph_> we also throw an error when we veto a source
# [16:44] <stenno> yes
# [16:44] <stenno> i found out that i can bind onerror
# [16:45] <stenno> but there is no event triggered when it is successfully loaded?
# [16:45] <stenno> or, successfully started loaded (sorry for grammar :) )
# [16:48] <stenno> humph_, i found:
# [16:48] <stenno> Otherwise, if the media element does not have a src attribute but has a source element child, then let mode be children and let candidate be the first such source element child in tree order.
# [16:48] <stenno> at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#concept-media-load-algorithm
# [16:48] <humph_> excellent
# [16:48] <humph_> now to see how we do that order
# [16:49] <stenno> btw, are you a ff developer?
# [16:49] <humph_> yes
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# [16:50] <stenno> alright, nice work!
# [16:50] <humph_> the way to test this, if you want to try something
# [16:50] <humph_> create a simple page with 3 sources, and make all of them something made-up, so they will fail and throw errors
# [16:50] <humph_> and see which ones you get in which order
# [16:50] <humph_> then you'll know
# [16:51] <humph_> try it on every browser
# [16:51] <humph_> see who is broken
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# [16:51] <stenno> good idea, i only tested it in my web application, i will write a 'standalone' website
# [16:51] <stenno> thanks very much!
# [16:52] <humph_> something really small is all you need
# [16:52] <stenno> i will tell you the results later if you are interested
# [16:52] <humph_> <html><video><source ...
# [16:52] <humph_> sure
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# [16:52] <humph_> if we're broken, we should fix this
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# [16:55] <stenno> oh yes
# [16:55] <stenno> its starts with the last <source>
# [16:55] <stenno> wait, i paste you the code
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# [16:57] <stenno> humph_, here is the code:
# [16:57] <stenno> http://pastebin.com/JDjSSZY4
# [16:58] <stenno> chrome alerts '1' first
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# [16:59] <stenno> ff alerts '3' first
# [16:59] <stenno> that is ff 4.0 on debian linux
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# [17:03] <humph_> http://jsfiddle.net/uXRNL/
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# [17:03] <humph_> I get 1 2 3 in ff4
# [17:03] <humph_> and chrome
# [17:05] <stenno> thats strange
# [17:05] <stenno> i get 1 2 3 too
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# [17:06] <stenno> did you get 3 2 1 with my example?
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# [17:08] <humph_> I can't run pastebin :)
# [17:08] <SaadIbrahim> hello can someone look at my makrup and let me know if it follow the html5 bext practices: http://pastebin.com/SDPQCage
# [17:08] <stenno> oh :O
# [17:08] <SaadIbrahim> follows*
# [17:08] <stenno> let me provide a jsfiddle then, sorry
# [17:08] <SaadIbrahim> the layout is a bit tricky hence the divititis
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# [17:09] <stenno> humph_, http://jsfiddle.net/X4uHx/
# [17:10] <stenno> i get 3 2 1
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# [17:10] <humph_> dunno
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# [17:21] <SaadIbrahim> an h2 shouldnt occur after an h3 in markup right
# [17:23] <adrinux> only for certain values of after ;)
# [17:25] <SaadIbrahim> umm?
# [17:25] <SaadIbrahim> adrinux i dont understand
# [17:25] * SaadIbrahim feels dumb
# [17:27] <adrinux> html5 allows you to have <section>, and h1 etc within a section
# [17:27] <adrinux> to technically those come after
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# [17:28] <adrinux> you might find an html5 outliner useful SaadIbrahim
# [17:29] <adrinux> SaadIbrahim: like http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/ or https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/afoibpobokebhgfnknfndkgemglggomo
# [17:29] <SaadIbrahim> umm.. so i guess with different sections.. it sort of resets and i can start over from h1
# [17:29] <SaadIbrahim> am i right?
# [17:31] <adrinux> yeah, some explanation on https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Sections_and_Outlines_of_an_HTML5_document that looks good, scroll down to 'defining headings'
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# [17:42] <SaadIbrahim> alright i will read that
# [17:42] <SaadIbrahim> thanks adrinux :)
# [17:43] <SaadIbrahim> appreciate it!
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# [19:19] <SethX> hi, i'm having some issues with <video> and the flash fallback.. or perhaps codecs... i dont really know. I've followed what's described on videoforeveryone, and am having issues with ie8 and ie9. ie9 shows me a red x in the middle of the video area along with a black background, and the right click shows "play video". if i select that, i hear sound but see nothing
# [19:19] <SethX> it appears to be loading the mp4 source
# [19:20] <SethX> ie8 on the other hand isnt loading the flash fallback
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# [19:21] <SethX> and well, since ie debugging is so stellar it's kind of difficult to figure out why/what is going on...
# [19:22] <SethX> specifically the ie debugging tools dont actually show me any child nodes for the <video> element
# [19:22] <SethX> firebug does, as does chrome and safari
# [19:22] <SethX> unfortunatley i dont have a version of ff/chrome/saf old enough that dont support <video> to test the fallback
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# [19:23] <SethX> any suggestions?
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# [19:40] <daleharvey> ok I never really got your crockford bashing anton, but this time it does seem like he is smoking something
# [19:40] <antonkovalyov> never really got? are you kidding?
# [19:41] <daleharvey> I cant think of much less suitable for benchmarking real world web apps than jslint
# [19:41] <antonkovalyov> (function () { for (var i = 0; i < some.length; i++) { } }()); triggers fatal error in jslint
# [19:41] <antonkovalyov> FATAL ERROR
# [19:41] <antonkovalyov> fatal as in OMG THE WORLD IS COLLAPSING
# [19:42] <antonkovalyov> daleharvey, yeah his benchmarking is some lunatic stuff
# [19:42] <daleharvey> (function () { for (var i = 0; i < some.length; i++) { } })(); ?
# [19:42] <antonkovalyov> daleharvey, because you need to move all vars to the top of the function according to crock
# [19:43] <antonkovalyov> so anytime somebody tells me that crock is not lunatic, i ask them to write some non-hello world app that actually passes recent versions of jslint
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# [19:45] <daleharvey> heh yeh, I actually started doing that but was kinda annoying
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# [19:50] <danbeam|afk> antonkovalyov: I need to write you a Greasemonkey script that changes FATAL to KINDA FATAL whenever you press "JSLint"
# [19:50] * danbeam|afk is now known as danbeam
# [19:50] <antonkovalyov> ha
# [19:50] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: all my sites pass JSLint
# [19:50] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: and they're not hello world
# [19:50] <danbeam> as well as all of YUI
# [19:50] <antonkovalyov> well i expect that from YUI but your site
# [19:50] <antonkovalyov> mind sharing?
# [19:50] <antonkovalyov> i am honestly curious
# [19:51] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, basically i want to learn what people actually use for their day-to-day job
# [19:52] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, so that i could adjust the defaults appropriately
# [19:53] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: https://gist.github.com/935083
# [19:53] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: all of YUI is automatically linted, pretty sure
# [19:53] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: as is all of jQuery, the last time I checked
# [19:54] <antonkovalyov> jquery explicitly ignore some jslint warnings
# [19:54] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: besides, if you don't agree with a certain rule, you can turn it off (in most cases, if the Crock doesn't feel that bad about it)
# [19:54] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: yeah, as can you
# [19:54] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: oh, erm, or fork it instead, :P
# [19:54] <antonkovalyov> http://docs.jquery.com/JQuery_Core_Style_Guidelines#JSLint
# [19:54] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, no you can't
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# [19:54] <antonkovalyov> not always
# [19:55] <antonkovalyov> jquery ignores warnings because there is no way to turn those off
# [19:55] <antonkovalyov> and ignoring warning is _always_ bad for automatic checks
# [19:55] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: that's why I recommended you make pull requests on JSLint
# [19:55] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: for all the tolerate features you added
# [19:56] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: "forin" - This removes the requirement of doing a hasOwnProperty check inside of for/in loops. jQuery doesn't support working in an environment that has manipulated the Object.prototype as it's considered harmful.
# [19:56] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: so strange that jQuery says this when it explicitly has a .noConflict() lol
# [19:56] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSLint/pull/29
# [19:56] <antonkovalyov> that's why i don't do pull requests
# [19:56] <antonkovalyov> "Just fix your code. It is easy to do. The purpose of JSLint is to help you fix your code."
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# [19:57] <antonkovalyov> that approach towards developers does not work when you are making a developer-oriented tool
# [19:57] <miketaylr> .noConflict() is just for $, not Object.prototype
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# [19:57] <danbeam> miketaylr: but it means you have another library on the page
# [19:57] <danbeam> miketaylr: (most likely)\
# [19:57] <miketaylr> right, which presumably has done that...
# [19:57] <rgervais> I'm like that new clearfix :), nice and simple
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# [19:57] <rgervais> on h5bp
# [19:58] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: but he's right, that variable is "hoisted" to the nearest function
# [19:58] <tw2113> afternoon all
# [19:58] <antonkovalyov> rgervais, rgervais as in ricky gervais? :)
# [19:58] <danbeam> heh
# [19:58] <rgervais> antonkovalyov: yes
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# [19:59] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: on compilation of a function the whole function is parsed for locals (AFAIK)
# [19:59] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, he is right theoretically, but when you understand that javascript does not have a block scope (and it is really easy to understand) there is nothing wrong with it
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# [19:59] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, python people had that for ages, and the world is still around
# [19:59] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: when you understand JavaScript completely and never write a single bug, ;), you wouldn't need JSLint would you?
# [20:00] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, understand the language != never write a single bug
# [20:00] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: well, you need to do both
# [20:00] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, also i will stand by my belief — the tool should adapt to real world code. thinking that you can make _everybody_ change their working code is obnoxious
# [20:01] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: that's what the Crock says - it *appears* to make a block level variable
# [20:01] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: and it causes bugs
# [20:01] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: well, obviously you'd stand by it, lol, you forked and made jshint
# [20:01] <antonkovalyov> "it causes bugs" need some stats on this
# [20:01] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: I'm not trying to change your opinion, as you're entitled to it, but I'm just voicing mine
# [20:01] <danbeam> ;)
# [20:02] <rgervais> guys what are your thoughts on having a javascript that detects the browser and adds a class to the <html> tag
# [20:02] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, and i am trying to explain why i am so opposed to crock's position
# [20:02] <rgervais> so we can target browsers for any bugs or anything in general?
# [20:02] <rgervais> bad or good idea
# [20:02] <antonkovalyov> rgervais, i think it is good
# [20:02] <antonkovalyov> but paul_irish hates me for that
# [20:02] <antonkovalyov> since browser sniffing is considered bad nowadays
# [20:02] <danbeam> function (i, ) { var i = 0; for (var i in obj) { i = obj[i]; break; } alert(typeof i); }(5, {'key':1})
# [20:02] <rgervais> what's his reason for hating that
# [20:03] <danbeam> function (i, obj) { var i = 0; for (var i in obj) { i = obj[i]; break; } alert(typeof i); }(5, {'key':1})
# [20:03] <danbeam> **
# [20:03] <rgervais> why is browser sniffing bad and i need a good reason not to do it
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# [20:03] <rgervais> we
# [20:03] <rgervais> are already doing it for IE
# [20:03] <antonkovalyov> rgervais, there are legitimate reasons. for example
# [20:03] <rgervais> with conditional comments
# [20:03] <danbeam> rgervais: because browsers change
# [20:03] <danbeam> rgervais: features don't as much
# [20:03] <antonkovalyov> rgervais, for example, if you sniff for IE and make a hotfix
# [20:03] <rgervais> ok...
# [20:03] <antonkovalyov> the next version of IE might fix a bug, but your sniff will still work and might break it
# [20:03] <antonkovalyov> in theory
# [20:04] <antonkovalyov> it is more dangerous in js than in css afaik
# [20:04] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, those are examples not stats
# [20:04] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: you give me statistics it wouldn't fuck things up, ;)
# [20:05] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: for those that don't know block level vs. functional scoping (coming from Perl, C, Java, etc.)
# [20:05] <rgervais> danbeam: browsers change? as in a new version comes up
# [20:05] <rgervais> is that all
# [20:05] <danbeam> rgervais: what if you parse the UA and determine it's Chrome
# [20:05] <danbeam> rgervais: but Chrome changes every 2 weeks
# [20:05] <danbeam> rgervais: and eventually the functionality you're changing that has to with Chrome
# [20:05] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, by stats i mean like — jquery people know what they are doing but because of hoisting they introduced 10 bugs in the past year
# [20:05] <danbeam> rgervais: is there, but you're not doing it because $.browser.chrome or whatever
# [20:06] <antonkovalyov> rgervais, pretty much what danbeam says
# [20:06] <danbeam> rgervais: also, you can be future proff
# [20:06] <danbeam> rgervais: (more so)
# [20:06] <antonkovalyov> rgervais, also when browser changes your code will automatically use native versions (if any)
# [20:06] <antonkovalyov> while with sniffing it wont
# [20:06] <rgervais> danbeam: if I just target chrome in general
# [20:06] <rgervais> not a specific version
# [20:06] <rgervais> shouldn't that do it?
# [20:06] <danbeam> rgervais: I just made a plugin that determines whether or not text-overflow: ellipsis; works
# [20:07] <danbeam> rgervais: someday FF4 might do that natively
# [20:07] <danbeam> rgervais: and my plugin will detect that
# [20:07] <danbeam> rgervais: and magically work
# [20:07] <danbeam> rgervais: without me having to push out a change to whoever's using it (if I could)
# [20:07] <rgervais> danbeam: does your plugin actually implement the text-overflow
# [20:07] <rgervais> or just detect
# [20:07] <danbeam> rgervais: both
# [20:07] <danbeam> rgervais: :)
# [20:07] <rgervais> danbeam: send me a effin link
# [20:07] <rgervais> i've been complaing to mozilla for that
# [20:08] <danbeam> rgervais: it'll fall back to native if it's there, otherwise it'll do binary search on an invisible proxy node to get the best length
# [20:08] <rgervais> i think they might fix it next cylcle
# [20:08] <rgervais> all browsers support text-overflow
# [20:08] <rgervais> except FF
# [20:08] <danbeam> https://github.com/danbeam/ellipsis
# [20:08] <rgervais> annoying
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# [20:09] <rgervais> thanks
# [20:09] <rgervais> thank you antonkovalyov as well
# [20:10] <antonkovalyov> np
# [20:11] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: muhaha, jQuery eval()s JSON? https://github.com/jquery/jquery/blob/master/src/core.js#L540
# [20:11] <rgervais> and honestly I'm no fan of UA sniffing in a case of bug fixing
# [20:11] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, so does JSON.js by crock :)
# [20:11] <rgervais> i do like IE conditionals though
# [20:11] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: /facepalm
# [20:12] <rgervais> danbeam: what's facepalm?
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# [20:12] <tw2113> when you put your hand to your face in disbelief
# [20:12] <danbeam> http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.com/media/2009/01/ah012709facepalm2.jpg
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# [20:12] <antonkovalyov> rgervais, http://arthropoda.southernfriedscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/facepalm.jpg
# [20:12] <antonkovalyov> hahah
# [20:12] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, nice :)
# [20:12] <antonkovalyov> same image
# [20:12] <danbeam> :)
# [20:12] <danbeam> yup
# [20:12] <tw2113> i'm cooler, i tried to explain it
# [20:12] <rgervais> haha, i guess i said something dumb :)
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# [20:13] <danbeam> rgervais: no, I was saying that to antonkovalyov
# [20:13] <rgervais> oh
# [20:13] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: why couldn't you just pick a sn like antonk ?
# [20:13] <danbeam> :P
# [20:13] <tw2113> danbeam learn to IRC...type ant and then hit tab
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# [20:13] <danbeam> tw2113: I know, dawg
# [20:13] <danbeam> damn, you're right -- totally works later too
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# [20:13] <danbeam> also, it's learn 2 irssi
# [20:14] <tw2113> that's just the IRC client :P
# [20:14] <tw2113> i'm on xchat2
# [20:14] <danbeam> it's the client, not the protocol, that does it
# [20:14] <tw2113> ah
# [20:14] <tw2113> touche then
# [20:14] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, sn?
# [20:15] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: screen name
# [20:15] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSON-js/blob/master/json2.js#L443
# [20:16] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: yeah, I guess the same thing, eh?
# [20:17] <mikesusz> testing downlevel. hilarious. FF3.0 supporting flexbox but not font face.
# [20:17] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, i don't think you can write an efficient json parser without using eval tbh
# [20:17] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: JSON.parse
# [20:17] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, except for native JSON :)
# [20:17] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, also as almost everything eval is not bad if you use it carefully
# [20:17] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: (I know, it's not native in many browsers)
# [20:17] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, i've got motto for jshint "Everything in moderation. Including moderation"
# [20:17] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: have you seen jQuery JSON plugin + secureEval?
# [20:18] <antonkovalyov> danbeam, nah
# [20:18] <tw2113> i wonder how much i'd f up my typing ability if i started mixing between qwerty and dvorak
# [20:18] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: eh, nvm, does that same shit
# [20:18] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: regex first, then eval
# [20:19] <antonkovalyov> yep
# [20:20] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: http://jsperf.com/json-parse-vs-eval
# [20:21] <danbeam> antonkovalyov: trying to find one for JS JSON parsing
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# [20:25] <paul_irish> danbeam: you're all over the the place lately. i love it
# [20:26] <paul_irish> rgervais: why do you need to browser sniff
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# [20:32] <danbeam> paul_irish: what do you mean?
# [20:33] <paul_irish> github activity i guess
# [20:33] <danbeam> paul_irish: ah, ok
# [20:33] <danbeam> paul_irish: yeah, I'm really busy
# [20:33] <danbeam> paul_irish: otherwise I'd be doing more
# [20:33] <danbeam> paul_irish: I want to tell w3 I'd wanna work on the validator, but that might be too ambitious right now
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# [20:34] * tw2113 needs to get more busy with the time i have
# [20:35] <danbeam> paul_irish: I was already at work til 3am last night, if I came home after that and started working on other stuff (which I almost did) my gf would _kill_ me
# [20:35] <danbeam> heh
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# [20:36] <rgervais> paul_irish: I don't need it
# [20:36] <paul_irish> danbeam: well.. when you want to.. hop on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator-css/
# [20:36] <paul_irish> rgervais: that's what i thought!
# [20:36] <rgervais> paul_irish: but I was wondering if we were already using IE conditionals which sort of like it
# [20:36] <rgervais> then why not do it for all
# [20:36] <paul_irish> because your UA sniffs will be wrong
# [20:36] <rgervais> but danbeam antonk convinced my otherwise
# [20:36] <paul_irish> and
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# [20:37] <paul_irish> you probably dont need to target by browser
# [20:37] <paul_irish> i have a list of all the reasons that you absolutely *must* sniff
# [20:37] <paul_irish> and it's not that long
# [20:37] <rgervais> if you have a list, why is it wrong
# [20:37] <paul_irish> because i like documenting things.
# [20:37] <rgervais> I get it if it's danbeams way
# [20:37] <rgervais> that browsers change
# [20:38] <paul_irish> yup
# [20:38] <paul_irish> like assuming that because its Firefox 3.5+ that it has a flash of unstyled text with @font-face
# [20:38] <rgervais> right..
# [20:38] <paul_irish> .... except it doesnt anymore in FF4
# [20:38] <paul_irish> whoops. already shipped code with that assumption baked in
# [20:39] <rgervais> ok but we do have conditionals for IE which is kinda doing that..
# [20:39] <tw2113> did FF4 remove the moment of unstyled fonts?
# [20:39] <rgervais> but then again it's IE
# [20:39] <rgervais> so I get that, and that's probably why conditionals
# [20:41] <rgervais> paul_irish: i got one question for you anyone in general, regarding what I've been talking about lately regarding sites looking identical in all browsers
# [20:41] <rgervais> what if designer comes back and says it's part of "corporate identity".. what's your response
# [20:41] <rgervais> as someone said here on IRC
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# [20:46] <paul_irish> um
# [20:46] <paul_irish> the logo should look the same
# [20:46] <paul_irish> the color scheme and type faces probably too
# [20:46] <paul_irish> but the hinting on the typefaces will look different across browsers and OS's
# [20:47] <paul_irish> and if they want it to look identical then all your text will have to be an image.
# [20:47] <paul_irish> again
# [20:47] <paul_irish> none of your users are opening your site in multiple browsers
# [20:47] <paul_irish> i dont know how corporate identity plays into this.
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# [20:48] <rgervais> paul_irish: :) got it
# [20:48] <tw2113> there are certain parts that are corporate identity, then there is just nitpicking
# [20:49] <rgervais> tw2113: yea probably nitpicking
# [20:49] <rgervais> in general, what folks will lose is just
# [20:49] <rgervais> drop shadows and rounded corners from a CSS perspective
# [20:49] <rgervais> i can't think of anything else off the bat
# [20:50] <rgervais> i'm sure there's more, but that's the main ones for me
# [20:50] <tw2113> those people will not even realize that there are no rounded corners
# [20:52] <rgervais> word
# [20:57] <Fyrd> So I'd like to add Android 3.0 to caniuse.com but I'm not sure where to put it.
# [20:57] <Fyrd> Technically it needs to be in "current" with 2.3.
# [20:57] <paul_irish> hmm :
# [20:57] <paul_irish> hmm :/
# [20:58] <Fyrd> But I don't want to add another column for that. Especially since the next version should harmonize phone/tablet OSes.
# [20:59] <Fyrd> I've pretty much screwed myself over with the rows defined as they are. But I feel it makes sense most of the time.
# [20:59] <Fyrd> Think, paul_irish, think!
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# [21:00] <rgervais> Fyrd: I got it, add another completely
# [21:00] <Fyrd> Or anyone else.
# [21:00] <rgervais> for mobile/ipad
# [21:00] <rgervais> and leave desktop seperate
# [21:00] <rgervais> thank me later :)
# [21:00] <rgervais> add another ROW
# [21:00] <Fyrd> Yeah, I've considered that.
# [21:00] <rgervais> that's the only way dude
# [21:01] <Fyrd> A row? I was thinking a whole 'nother table.
# [21:01] <rgervais> yea exactly table
# [21:01] <Fyrd> Ah okay.
# [21:01] <rgervais> errrr..
# [21:01] <rgervais> well there's 2 ways actually
# [21:01] <rgervais> I like 1. Table
# [21:01] <rgervais> 2. change width of site
# [21:02] <paul_irish> um
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# [21:02] <paul_irish> split the cell?
# [21:02] <rgervais> the whole container can be for wide, "flexible"
# [21:02] <Fyrd> paul_irish: Right, that kinda makes sense too.
# [21:02] <paul_irish> MDC used to do this with "Safari (webkit)" .... "4.0 (523.3) "
# [21:02] <Fyrd> Except for the part where I'd have to spend hours of coding for just that case.
# [21:02] <paul_irish> heh
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# [21:03] <rgervais> Fyrd: change the width of your site to 970px
# [21:03] <rgervais> right now it's like 850
# [21:03] <rgervais> just a suggestion
# [21:04] <Fyrd> rgervais: I probably should do that.
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# [21:04] <paul_irish> +1
# [21:04] <rgervais> word
# [21:06] <daleharvey> its pretty hard to add android
# [21:06] <daleharvey> since there is like 200 versions
# [21:06] <Fyrd> daleharvey: The standard Android browser seems to be the same based on the version number, AFAIK.
# [21:06] <daleharvey> they change a decent amount across minor releases and vendors
# [21:07] <Fyrd> Could be wrong.
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# [21:09] <Fyrd> I'm hoping the features in iOS Safari will remain the same in both iPhone and iPad. Else I'll have the same issue there.
# [21:09] <rgervais> Fyrd: I'm sure that will be the same, it'll be dumb if it's different I think
# [21:10] <Fyrd> rgervais: Well, you never know.
# [21:10] <rgervais> yea..
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# [21:20] <tw2113> http://sixrevisions.com/infographs/web-designers-web-developers-remix/
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# [21:37] <paul_irish> http://cubiq.org/building-a-pure-css-3d-city
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# [21:43] <danbeam> paul_irish: 3D CSS city is awesome!
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# [21:49] <danbeam> paul_irish: P.S. added that download link behavior I was bitching about last night, lol - http://userscripts.org/scripts/review/101542
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# [22:38] <Zeddy> will it within a year be possible to use the device tag to create html5 augmented reality applications?
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# [22:38] <paul_irish> .tweet plhw3org
# [22:38] <socialhapy> http://bit.ly/gWyYag @plhw3org: Playing around http://www.w3.org/2011/04/coloring/ #svg
# [22:39] <paul_irish> Zeddy: yes but you wont use the device tag.
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# [22:44] <danbeam> paul_irish: Colors not working for me, :(
# [22:44] <paul_irish> stop using iceweasel
# [22:44] <danbeam> lol
# [22:45] <danbeam> paul_irish: also, strange paint bug in Chrome (again, :P) - http://www.brunildo.org/test/IE8_alpha_filter.html
# [22:45] <danbeam> paul_irish: if you can't see it (likely), I can file if you want me to
# [22:45] <danbeam> paul_irish: (second green area is like vibrating and off and stuff)
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# [22:46] <danbeam> paul_irish: and for your info, I'm using Netscape 4
# [22:46] <danbeam> :P
# [22:47] <danbeam> dgathright: http://www.brunildo.org/test/IE8_alpha_filter.html <-- do you get paint issues in OS X on this page?
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# [22:49] <danbeam> paul_irish: same paint issue on windoze
# [22:49] <paul_irish> danbeam: cant see it
# [22:50] <dgathright> danbeam: Nope.
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# [22:52] <danbeam> paul_irish: nvm, must be Linucks
# [22:53] <danbeam> http://danbeam.org/chrome_paint_issue.png <-- doesn't look bad to you guys, right?
# [22:53] <danbeam> fucking linux
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# [22:57] <paul_irish> http://plixi.com/p/94588872
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# [22:58] <DreamHazard> ok guys, what I'm looking for is a suitable HTML5 equivalent to marquee. I want to make an image marquee with minimal code. I know it's awful but it's in the design brief
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# [23:00] <danbeam> paul_irish: lolololol
# [23:00] <danbeam> (at venn diagram)
# [23:00] <tw2113> cgcardona no
# [23:00] <cgcardona> ;p
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# [23:02] <danbeam> I wonder if miketaylr lives in SoCal - Obama's clogging up all the traffic tubes for us right now, :/
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# [23:09] <paul_irish> no he lives in BK
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# [23:10] <danbeam> miketaylr lives in a Burger King?
# [23:11] <tw2113> miketaylr is the burger king?
# [23:11] <danbeam> that doesn't sound very fun ... you'd always smell like fries
# [23:11] <danbeam> hahaha
# [23:11] <plh__> paul_irish, glad you enjoyed coloring :)
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# [23:11] <danbeam> plh__: which browsers does that work in?
# [23:12] <plh__> webkit-based, firefox, and opera
# [23:12] <tw2113> easier to say "the good ones"
# [23:12] <plh__> doesn't work in ie9 because of importNode and textContent
# [23:12] <plh__> (and I'm too lazy to do a work around)
# [23:16] <plh__> ah, doesn't work on android chrome (no svg)
# [23:16] <plh__> and some of the svg handling is weird on the iphone
# [23:16] <plh__> didn't try the ipad
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# [23:18] <danbeam> plh__: not working for me in Chromium/Ubuntu, but that's obviously not a large market, ;)
# [23:18] <danbeam> https://twitter.com/#!/danbeam/status/61175997285941248
# [23:18] <socialhapy> I couldn't grab that users tweets, is it protected?
# [23:18] <danbeam> yup
# [23:18] <danbeam> @google fails to validate to an open standard with 35 errors (http://bit.ly/cFjsfh), whereas @msn passes (http://bit.ly/dUU7Nv) #open #irony
# [23:18] <plh__> hu, worky for me...
# [23:18] <plh__> which version of chromium?
# [23:19] <danbeam> plh__: 10.0.648.205
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# [23:19] <plh__> weird. same one here
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# [23:20] <danbeam> plh__: what should happen when I click a shape?
# [23:20] <danbeam> plh__: and click a color?
# [23:20] <plh__> it should color the shape
# [23:20] <danbeam> negative, :(
# [23:20] <danbeam> stays black
# [23:21] <plh__> got a pointer for me?
# [23:21] <danbeam> plh__: oh oh oh, nvm
# [23:21] <danbeam> plh__: sorry mate, just didn't understand the UI
# [23:21] <danbeam> plh__: sorry sorry sorry, haha
# [23:21] <danbeam> plh__: might want to say "Click something on the shape to color"
# [23:22] <danbeam> (might sound dumb, but I am)
# [23:22] <danbeam> haha
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# [23:22] * plh__ will try with his 3 years old son and see if it needs improvements :)
# [23:22] <danbeam> plh__: on this page I just assumed clicking a color would change the overall outline of the turtle or something - http://www.w3.org/2011/04/coloring/drawing.html?Turtle
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# [23:23] <danbeam> plh__: yes, I hope your 3 year old is smarter than me, :)
# [23:23] * danbeam needs to look into recruiting 3-year-olds to work at Y!
# [23:23] <paul_irish> $20 says he is.
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# [23:23] <danbeam> paul_irish: :_(
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# [23:26] <digitalfiz> paul_irish, can i complain to you about an annoyance with chrome on osx?
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# [23:27] <danbeam> digitalfiz: welcome to half of what we do in this channel, :P
# [23:27] <daleharvey> lol
# [23:27] <daleharvey> seriously when is chrome gonna fix their ugly gradients
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# Session Close: Fri Apr 22 00:00:00 2011

The end :)