/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-04-30 / end

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# Session Start: Sat Apr 30 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
# [00:00] * Quits: ybon (~ybon@81.93.12.28) (Quit: Pingouin timed out)
# [00:00] <grantg> paul_irish: Conversion from binary string to an integer array is voodoo still in JS
# [00:00] <paul_irish> agreed.
# [00:00] <grantg> even if you do it right, the browser might have edge cases not documented
# [00:00] <grantg> because we're reading it off as ASCII or unicode depending on the browser support. O_O
# [00:01] <grantg> lolwtf
# [00:01] <paul_irish> grantg: if you find something not documented
# [00:01] <grantg> there needs to be a string function
# [00:01] <paul_irish> let #devmo know on the moz IRC
# [00:01] <grantg> to do this easily
# [00:01] <paul_irish> either me or someone else can drop in whatever you found out
# [00:01] <paul_irish> (assuming you're too busy do write it yourself, which is fine)
# [00:01] <grantg> +1 .toInt8Array
# [00:01] <grantg> heh
# [00:01] <grantg> paul_irish: No prob, I can help
# [00:02] * Quits: mattag (~matt.agar@office-02.august.com.au) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [00:02] * grantg thinks there needs to be an extension to the String object that directly converts the String to a typed array.
# [00:02] <grantg> + infinity
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# [00:03] <grantg> since the fromCharCode/toCharCode is not made for string to int, but rather string to unicode value, if that makes sense to anyone
# [00:04] <TheLifelessOne> Hi, small question. Does HTML5 allow <script src="..." />?
# [00:04] <paul_irish> no
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# [00:04] <paul_irish> i saw a good explanation of why recently.
# [00:04] <danbeam> miketaylr: you work for Opera, right?
# [00:04] <miketaylr> i do danbeam
# [00:04] <paul_irish> something like script elems are content flow elems
# [00:04] <TheLifelessOne> Mhm.
# [00:04] <paul_irish> and therefore they cannot be selfclosed
# [00:05] <paul_irish> and must have content
# [00:05] <paul_irish> like empty string content
# [00:05] <TheLifelessOne> That makes sense.
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# [00:05] <paul_irish> agree it's lame
# [00:05] <danbeam> miketaylr: ok, you're in my slides, :D
# [00:05] <miketaylr> yay
# [00:05] <miketaylr> unless its like THIS GUY SUCKS
# [00:05] <TheLifelessOne> Still, it'd be nice to not have to add that oh-so-ugly </script> at the end.
# [00:05] <danbeam> miketaylr: it's an apology to you that Yahoo! calls Opera C grade
# [00:05] <danbeam> miketaylr: lolol
# [00:05] <miketaylr> :D
# [00:05] <danbeam> miketaylr: and we pretty much totally support Opera (as a team), so yay!
# [00:06] <miketaylr> ?hi5 @ danbeam
# [00:06] <grantg> YO DAWG, VIEW SOURCE http://www.grantgalitz.org/gameboy/ <script src="..."/> FTFY FTFY
# [00:06] <bot-t> danbeam, ⁵
# [00:06] <grantg> XHTML WIN
# [00:06] <danbeam> miketaylr: I think I didn't both with an Opera 8 bug the other day, but 9+ is ok, I think
# [00:06] <miketaylr> muahahaha
# [00:06] <miketaylr> i wouldn't bother with an 8 bug
# [00:06] <danbeam> miketaylr: have Opera 8.53 in a VM or something
# [00:06] <miketaylr> there's gotta be like 28 users
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# [00:06] <danbeam> miketaylr: srsly less than that, I'd bet
# [00:06] <miketaylr> i could probably look it up
# [00:07] <danbeam> miketaylr: haha, do it
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# [00:07] <grantg> paul_irish: I haz valid <script src="..." />
# [00:07] <miketaylr> i remember looking at stats for like 9.20 and it was .01% of our userbase or something awesome
# [00:07] <paul_irish> XHTML is verboten.
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# [00:08] <grantg> application/xhtml+xml FTW
# [00:08] <danbeam> grantg: lol
# [00:08] <danbeam> grantg: super cool story
# [00:08] <paul_irish> ?csb @ grantg
# [00:08] <bot-t> grantg, cool story, bro. http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt71/Pittsburghistan/xb9yt0jpg-1.gif
# [00:08] <grantg> cool story bro
# [00:08] <danbeam> awesome
# [00:08] <danbeam> OMG THAT ANIMOOTED GIF ROCKS
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# [00:09] <grantg> This is the good side of application/xhtml+xml
# [00:09] <grantg> ^_^
# [00:10] <grantg> SIR, THIS PAGE IS COMING UP AS application/xhtml+xml, what do you think we should do?
# [00:10] <grantg> SELF CLOSE EVERYTHING
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# [00:16] <grantg> heh
# [00:16] <grantg> twitter is down
# [00:17] <zewt> you should twit about it
# [00:17] <grantg> someone needs to animate the fail whale. <-
# [00:17] <sedovsek> zewt :))
# [00:17] <grantg> +1 zewt
# [00:17] <zewt> irc: twitter's failover server
# [00:17] <grantg> true
# [00:17] <grantg> and reddit's failover server
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# [00:18] <grantg> #redditdowntime
# [00:18] <grantg> :/
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# [01:20] <grantg> paul_irish: http://i.imgur.com/IbgXU.jpg
# [01:20] <grantg> IE8 done goofed
# [01:21] <grantg> the blue area is circling what should be visible
# [01:21] <grantg> but it seems IE8 failed absolute positioning classically. :/
# [01:21] <grantg> Stick that in the positioniseverything site. :P
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# [01:23] <grantg> IE8 fails to handle many cases of mixed relative and absolute positioning
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# [01:24] <grantg> paul_irish: Update the acid 2 test? </troll>
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# [02:14] <paul_irish> nobody cares about your stupid XHTML bugs
# [02:14] <paul_irish> beeyotch
# [02:14] <paul_irish> go to #xhtml
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# [02:22] <benv> heh
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# [02:33] <tw2113> <meta name="description" content="We build sites and apps for web and mobile. BTW, you look very nice today.">
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# [02:36] <tw2113> anyone know if this is legitimate script or just someone having fun? "EP.wait('inquire')"
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# [03:12] <tw2113> what are some peoples opinions about SASS vs LESS?
# [03:12] <paul_irish> great!
# [03:12] <paul_irish> dont use less clientside.
# [03:12] <paul_irish> otherwise, both are great!
# [03:13] <tw2113> i'm considering giving them some test runs
# [03:13] <tw2113> if anything, give me an edge up on other people :D, it would make a good resume item
# [03:17] <tw2113> i wonder how well they'd work with WordPress
# [03:20] <paul_irish> me too.
# [03:26] <tw2113> http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/wp-less/
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# [04:03] <tw2113> ?g less
# [04:03] <bot-t> tw2113, LESS � The Dynamic Stylesheet language - http://lesscss.org/
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# [05:25] <tw2113> rain!
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# [05:28] <themiddleman> snow!
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# [06:04] <zewt> fireballs
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# [06:12] <paul_irish> well he won.
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# [06:19] <themiddleman> I think I am going to not check twitter for the next week, I dont want to be reminded Im not at jsconf :/
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# [06:21] <tw2113> but then you'd miss out on all the post royal wedding tweets
# [06:21] <tw2113> oh wait that'd be a blessing
# [06:23] <danbeam> paul_irish: do you know much about legality of images in presentations?
# [06:23] <paul_irish> i know for google io we basically cant use any image we dont own
# [06:23] <danbeam> paul_irish: damn, like I suspected, :(
# [06:23] <snover> danbeam: same as any other media
# [06:23] <paul_irish> ya
# [06:23] <danbeam> snover: what's the copyright on any other media in presentations, haha?
# [06:23] <paul_irish> i think you only get caught on that shit at confs of a certain size
# [06:24] <paul_irish> clearly most people dont care
# [06:24] <danbeam> snover: or legality of using copyrighted material
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# [06:24] <snover> if it’s copyrighted without some sort of CC license that allows you to use it, then you can’t use it
# [06:24] <paul_irish> ^
# [06:24] <snover> unless you get permission from the copyright owner
# [06:24] <danbeam> snover: what about implicit copyright?
# [06:24] <snover> all copyright is implicit.
# [06:25] <danbeam> snover: so if an image is on a site without any copyright it's implicitly copyrighted the same way?
# [06:25] <tw2113> go for creative commons or public domain stuff
# [06:25] <danbeam> snover: it must explicitly say Creative Commons?
# [06:25] <tw2113> correct on implicent
# [06:25] <snover> Anything after, um…1986? is automatically copyrighted
# [06:25] <tw2113> implicate*
# [06:25] <danbeam> snover: so I'm copyrighted? lol
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# [06:26] <tw2113> i could snap a photo with my camera phone, upload to my website, and show you, but it'd be copywritten to me
# [06:26] <danbeam> tw2113: yeah, that's stupid, P.S.
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# [06:26] <danbeam> tw2113: unelss I copyright my face as a brand or logo
# [06:26] <tw2113> i think we need copyright reform
# [06:26] <danbeam> tw2113: or copyright my fist in your camera's lens, lol
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# [06:26] <snover> danbeam: if it’s a brand it’s trademark, not copyright
# [06:26] <danbeam> snover: oh, my bad
# [06:26] <nickbaugh> paul_irish: *waves*
# [06:27] <paul_irish> :)
# [06:27] * tw2113 donates to CC $10/month or so
# [06:27] <paul_irish> good man
# [06:27] <danbeam> snover, paul_irish, tw2113 perfect for slide of script minification/combination http://www.weruletheinternet.com/wp-content/uploads/images/2010/november/puppies/puppy_dogs_22.jpg
# [06:27] <danbeam> BUT NO
# [06:27] * danbeam sulks
# [06:28] <snover> so good it doesn’t allow direct linking even without a referrer
# [06:28] <snover> you stay classy, weruletheinternet.com
# [06:28] <danbeam> snover: haha
# [06:28] <tw2113> i also release stuff when i can under wtfpl :D
# [06:28] <danbeam> snover: really, it didn't work for you?
# [06:28] <tw2113> it sent me to google.com
# [06:28] <snover> the irony being that…everything on that site is probably a copyright infringement
# [06:28] <danbeam> yeah, lame, it's so strange how browsers forward referers for you sometimes
# [06:28] <danbeam> snover: yeah, for realz
# [06:29] <danbeam> snover: i was thinking the same thing
# [06:29] <paul_irish> HERE U GO SNOVER http://paulirish.com/i/9a00.png
# [06:29] <snover> OMG PUPPPPPPPIIIIIIIEEEESSSSSSSSSS
# [06:29] <snover> SO KYUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTT
# [06:29] <paul_irish> :D:D:D
# [06:29] <nickbaugh> danbeam: i don't always test my code, but when I do, I do it in production ... ;)
# [06:29] <paul_irish> nice one danbeam
# [06:29] <danbeam> lol, as if http://www.weruletheinternet.com/wp-content/uploads/images/2010/november/puppies/puppy_dogs_22.jpg <-- that didn't give it away
# [06:29] <snover> p.s. http://www.tineye.com/search/4b81da2ebe2488a8bb95aa82ea96c765bb6d9748/
# [06:30] <danbeam> anybody know of a good site other than flickr that allows you search for CC images?
# [06:30] <danbeam> nickbaugh: heh
# [06:30] <danbeam> nickbaugh: I have that on my cube still
# [06:30] <snover> danbeam: there are a billion free stock image sites
# [06:30] <tw2113> http://www.isfireworksbetterthanphotoshop.com/
# [06:31] <danbeam> snover: where?
# [06:31] <tw2113> creativecommons.org can search through many
# [06:31] <snover> tw2113: it’s true, except for the shitty lethargic UI :(
# [06:31] <danbeam> haha
# [06:31] <snover> If Fireworks had a UI that didn’t run on a setTimeout loop I would be all up in that motherfucker
# [06:32] <tw2113> danbeam you can search with google just for creative commons stuff
# [06:32] <tw2113> you just need to go to advanced search
# [06:32] <snover> Instead, it’s like, OH YOU SWITCHED TOOLS? HOLD ON LET ME…WAIT…OH YEP, LET ME LOAD MY NEW PANEL NOW
# [06:32] <danbeam> snover: what does jQuery do (pre 1.6)?
# [06:32] <snover> danbeam: do about what?
# [06:32] <danbeam> snover: how does it animate things?
# [06:32] <snover> I’m confused
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# [06:32] <danbeam> snover: or you're saying the entire UI is on 1 interval
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# [06:33] <snover> are you non sequituring?
# [06:33] <danbeam> nvm, I gotcha
# [06:33] <danbeam> snover: no, I'm not a squirter, thanks for asking, lol
# [06:33] <paul_irish> http://www.girlfriendnyc.com/ check out the strikethrough
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# [06:34] <tw2113> lol
# [06:34] <snover> that site sure slides
# [06:36] <snover> oh man you guys
# [06:36] <snover> I had to sneeze
# [06:36] <snover> and then it went away
# [06:36] <snover> without me sneezing
# [06:36] <snover> true story
# [06:36] * nickbaugh spots a wild SNEEZE
# [06:36] <danbeam> snover: you were criticizing something for running on an interval, and almost all JS animation uses a low precision timer of some sort, was confused what's different about creativecommons.org?
# [06:36] <snover> danbeam: the subject in that sentence was Fireworks
# [06:36] <snover> :)
# [06:37] <danbeam> snover: so you're saying the way Fireworks ... works is shitty because it's all on an interval?
# [06:37] <danbeam> (don't know, never used it)
# [06:37] <danbeam> also, creative commons uses YUI, cool (it's sad that it's that rare, but whatevs)
# [06:37] <snover> because its UI is lethargic
# [06:38] <snover> I don’t know if it’s a timeout but I do know it’s written in JS from the ancient era
# [06:38] <danbeam> oh sweet, I think I just found XSS hole too, let me see
# [06:38] <snover> let’s not have two conversations at once, it is confusing me
# [06:39] <danbeam> haha, ok, I'll stop
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# [06:41] <danbeam> http://on.mtv.com/eVeMOy awesome way to link to my product is awesome, heh
# [06:42] <nickbaugh> danbeam: haha
# [06:42] <danbeam> nickbaugh: stay ... XSSy my friend
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# [06:48] <nickbaugh> lol @ "The Other Guys"
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# [07:00] <jai> hi.. i need one help? anybody is there?
# [07:00] <danbeam> jai: http://stackoverflow.com
# [07:01] * danbeam is slightly kidding...
# [07:02] <jai> hi.. i want to add flash video using html5?how?
# [07:02] <snover> ur doing it wrong.
# [07:02] <danbeam> heh
# [07:02] <jai> how will do
# [07:02] <danbeam> jai: http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/html-css-techniques/quick-tip-html-5-video-with-a-fallback-to-flash/
# [07:03] * danbeam agress with snover, though, lol
# [07:03] <danbeam> agrees*
# [07:03] <jai> using canvas element
# [07:03] <paul_irish> TIL: json isn't valid javascript. http://www.json.org/ allows escaping slashes ('\/'), but ECMAScript doesn't (section 7.8.4 String Literals, http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-262.pdf).
# [07:04] <danbeam> jai: oh gosh, you've done it now
# [07:04] <jai> using canvas element i want to play video in browser..
# [07:04] <nickbaugh> paul_irish: about to hatch the ~eggs
# [07:04] <nickbaugh> paul_irish: got both plural and singular [dot]coms
# [07:04] <snover> jai: thank you for your contribution.
# [07:05] <jai> snover : i need sample code to create flace using canvas element
# [07:05] <danbeam> paul_irish: look at abstract comparison operator and hide your weaponry (as you'll want to shoot/stab someone)
# [07:06] <snover> you need a nonsense-ectomy.
# [07:06] * danbeam lols pretty hard
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# [07:06] <danbeam> paul_irish: Any character
# [07:06] <danbeam> may appear in the form of an escape sequence.
# [07:07] <snover> paul_irish: look at CharacterEscapeSequence definition :)
# [07:07] <snover> I thiiiink?
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# [07:08] <snover> SingleEscapeCharacter, which would be \, and NonEscapeChacater, which would be /
# [07:08] <snover> I think.
# [07:08] <snover> SPECS ARE HARD LET’S GO TO THE MALL FUCK
# [07:08] <danbeam> snover: haha
# [07:10] <danbeam> paul_irish: so you're saying the Spec defies itself? 15.12.1?
# [07:10] <danbeam> "The JSON Grammar"
# [07:12] <paul_irish> iunno im bored now
# [07:12] <danbeam> I can't find "SourceCharacter" (which is referenced alot)
# [07:13] <danbeam> nvm, SourceCharacter:: any Unicode code unit
# [07:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: \ JSONEscapeSequence
# [07:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: " / \ b f n r t
# [07:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: from 15.12.1
# [07:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: (omitted a couple rules, but that seems like it's totally valid to say \/)
# [07:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: in JSON
# [07:16] <danbeam> paul_irish: but I guess you said it's not valid in ECMAScript strings
# [07:16] <danbeam> paul_irish: will check
# [07:16] <snover> danbeam: Remember when I said, look at CharacterEscapeSequence? ;)
# [07:16] <danbeam> paul_irish: it would seem real strange for them to contractdict ... themselves
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# [07:17] <danbeam> paul_irish: oh, so, there's no / in there, I see
# [07:17] <danbeam> paul_irish: yeah, you're right
# [07:17] <danbeam> paul_irish: that's an error or something
# [07:17] <snover> “The CV of CharacterEscapeSequence :: NonEscapeCharacter is the CV of the NonEscapeCharacter.”
# [07:18] <danbeam> paul_irish: it works, though...
# [07:19] <danbeam> NonEscapeCharacter
# [07:19] <danbeam> (only thing worse that reading a spec is trying to explain reading it, lol)
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# [07:21] <danbeam> paul_irish: so yeah, NonEscapeCharacter maps to any unicode value that's no an EscapeCharacter as valid behind a \
# [07:21] <danbeam> not an**
# [07:21] <danbeam> so if it's not \x \u or any of the SingleEscapeCharacter s it's still valid as well
# [07:22] <danbeam> (nor \[0-9])
# [07:26] <danbeam> paul_irish, snover also, Doug Crockford is a pretty l33t dude, I don't often see IETF docs with only one name on it - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4627 (but maybe I don't look at many)
# [07:26] <danbeam> (or maybe he's just a loner or stubborn, haha, don't know...)
# [07:26] <snover> danbeam: it’s an informational rfc
# [07:26] <snover> not a standards track rfc
# [07:27] <danbeam> snover: ah, so that's why it's not weird to have only 1 author?
# [07:27] <snover> danbeam: it’s not something i have paid a lot of attention to but it’s unlikely that the IETF would have a standard authored by one person
# [07:27] <snover> not much of a standard then :)
# [07:28] <danbeam> snover: yeah, that's what I'm saying, lol -- can't even get somebody to agree with you on the standard / review you work?
# [07:28] <danbeam> meh, JSON blew up anyways
# [07:28] <danbeam> haha
# [07:28] <nickbaugh> mongoooooo
# [07:28] <danbeam> snover: have you dealt with standards track RFCs before?
# [07:28] <danbeam> same @ paul_irish
# [07:29] <snover> danbeam: I’ve been on the oauth ML
# [07:29] <snover> that’s about it
# [07:29] <danbeam> snover: cool
# [07:29] <danbeam> snover: ML = what?
# [07:29] <snover> mailing list…
# [07:29] <danbeam> oh, I see
# [07:30] <danbeam> (was thinking Markup Language... like HTML or SGML, but that doesn't make much sense in the context of OAuth)
# [07:32] <danbeam> I'm on the CSS validator mailing list, but not sure how much shit Google Mail would mess up if I replied to a question I had a remote clue about (am a little to young to have been posting on many mailing lists when they were all the rage)
# [07:33] <danbeam> snover: any particular client you use to respond to text/plain emails without fear of substantially messing them up? mutt or mailx?
# [07:33] <snover> thunderbird
# [07:33] <danbeam> oh yeah, somebody told me it still had mailing list features
# [07:34] <snover> it’s just an email
# [07:34] <snover> I think you are confusing mailing list with newsgroup.
# [07:34] <danbeam> oh, you're right
# [07:34] <danbeam> yeah
# [07:34] <danbeam> damn
# [07:37] <danbeam> what is the difference? protocl and storage method?
# [07:37] <danbeam> protocol*
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# [07:43] <danbeam> snover: assuming you've seen this before, but really cool --> http://www.google.com/googlegroups/archive_announce_20.html, loved Stallman's announcement
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# [07:44] <danbeam> his email was @MIT-MC.ARPA
# [07:44] <danbeam> awesome
# [07:47] <danbeam> (well, not his whole email, but you get my point...)
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# [08:03] <tw2113> http://whatishtmlfive.com/
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# [08:19] <jai> how to ?lay video using html5
# [08:20] <digitalfiz> <video>
# [08:20] <jai> digitalfiz: can i use canvas element to play video on html 5?
# [08:24] <kyxzme> where i can find a doc about
# [08:25] <kyxzme> .translation() and .transform()
# [08:25] <kyxzme> _
# [08:25] <tw2113> ?g dive into html5 video
# [08:25] <bot-t> tw2113, Video - Dive Into HTML5 - http://diveintohtml5.org/video.html
# [08:25] <danbeam> tw2113: @ jai
# [08:25] <kyxzme> ?g dive into html5 transform
# [08:25] <bot-t> kyxzme, Video - Dive Into HTML5 - http://diveintohtml5.org/video.html
# [08:25] <kyxzme> ?g dive into html5 translate
# [08:25] <bot-t> kyxzme, Translation From MS-Speak to English of Selected Portions of Dean ... - http://diveintomark.org/archives/2011/04/15/nativity-scene
# [08:26] <danbeam> kyxzme: ?g search term
# [08:26] <danbeam> you don't need to prefix with dive into html5
# [08:26] <kyxzme> ?g canvas transform
# [08:26] <bot-t> kyxzme, Transformations - MDC Doc Center - https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Canvas_tutorial/Transformations
# [08:26] <kyxzme> thxu
# [08:26] <danbeam> :D
# [08:26] <tw2113> .translation() looks like jquery to me
# [08:26] <danbeam> snover, paul_irish, tw2113 if all my slides' images are CC, do I need to attribute them to their respective flickr accounts?
# [08:27] <paul_irish> yes
# [08:27] <danbeam> paul_irish: ok
# [08:27] <paul_irish> attribution required
# [08:27] <danbeam> paul_irish: is just flickr.com/user good enough?
# [08:27] <paul_irish> ya
# [08:27] <danbeam> bitchin
# [08:27] <danbeam> cuz I am lazy
# [08:27] <tw2113> usually the minimum for CC is attribution
# [08:27] <danbeam> and so tired
# [08:27] <danbeam> of preparing for this conf
# [08:27] <danbeam> I need moar energy like this guy - http://www.flickr.com/photos/programmerman/2315566040/sizes/o/in/photostream/
# [08:27] <tw2113> i forget their attempt at public domain
# [08:27] <tw2113> i think CC0
# [08:28] <paul_irish> yeah cc0
# [08:28] <paul_irish> its cool. i use it
# [08:28] <danbeam> http://www.flickr.com/photos/programmerman/2315566040/sizes/l/in/photostream/ easier to see
# [08:28] <paul_irish> it tries to fix what 'public domain' doesnt do well
# [08:28] <tw2113> danbeam i think most slideshow people give all the photo attributions in the final slide
# [08:28] <danbeam> tw2113: yeah, that's what I'm doing
# [08:29] <danbeam> paul_irish, tw2113, snover - also too nerdy to put on a slide? https://gist.github.com/949236
# [08:29] <tw2113> whatever gets it done
# [08:30] <danbeam> tw2113: uh, ok, does that mean yes or no, lol?
# [08:31] <danbeam> also, MFing Eagles dragging MFing goats - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7FFlFy8eM
# [08:31] <danbeam> damn you for making me say MFing, paul_irish
# [08:31] <danbeam> ?fpi
# [08:31] <bot-t> fucking paul irish! http://i.imgur.com/gpspl.png
# [08:31] * Joins: ajpiaNOU (~ajpiano@cpe-68-173-41-149.nyc.res.rr.com)
# [08:31] <jai> i want video like fash on webpage using html5?please help
# [08:31] <danbeam> pay off in that vid at :45
# [08:32] <tw2113> danbeam you're likely a bigger nerd than me
# [08:32] <paul_irish> jai: this is what you want: http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody
# [08:32] <danbeam> jai: the point of using HTML5 <video> is to not have to use Flash (as far as I can tell)
# [08:33] <jai> canvas element is help for me?
# [08:33] <tw2113> i can't speak too much tonight, i basically got called a shit programmer from some person in india
# [08:33] <snover> tw2113: lol
# [08:33] <danbeam> tw2113: that's a pretty harsh diss
# [08:33] <danbeam> snover called me specious once, don't feel so bad, :P
# [08:33] <tw2113> all because i don't know a huge amount mysql querying and php form handling
# [08:34] <snover> tw2113: an indian told me once that I had a small penis or something like that
# [08:34] <paul_irish> hey man some indians are fiercely talented.
# [08:34] <snover> when I refused to play “do my work for me for free”
# [08:34] <danbeam> http://bugs.jquery.com/ticket/7590 <-- inb4 specious
# [08:34] <tw2113> i never claimed to be a programmer anyway, i claim frontend developer
# [08:34] <paul_irish> heh
# [08:34] <danbeam> oops
# [08:34] <danbeam> totally wrong
# [08:34] <danbeam> diff. jQuery team member
# [08:35] <paul_irish> oh?
# [08:35] <danbeam> oh shit, now i have to question everything - snover, you are involved with jQuery, right?
# [08:35] <snover> I was
# [08:35] <danbeam> oh, ok
# [08:35] <snover> I didn’t call you specious
# [08:35] * danbeam bedrock is slightly less shattered
# [08:35] <snover> called the use case specious :P
# [08:35] <danbeam> yeah, it was dmethvin, sorry
# [08:35] * Joins: dgathright_ (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-hrcsadgenxirxija)
# [08:36] <danbeam> snover: oh shit
# [08:36] <danbeam> snover: no, I was right, lol, my bad
# [08:36] <danbeam> snover: yeah, it's all good
# [08:36] <tw2113> i'm over it all, btw
# [08:36] <danbeam> snover: I picked 2 very horrible getComputedStyle() examples for tests
# [08:37] <danbeam> snover: both were insane browser bugs, so jQuery's Qunit tests were failing in a couple browsers -- was in hell for like 4 hours
# [08:37] * Quits: dgathright (~dgathrigh@c-67-162-176-224.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
# [08:37] * dgathright_ is now known as dgathright
# [08:38] <danbeam> snover: why'd you stop being involed with jQuery? or should we go ... somewhere more private
# [08:38] * danbeam looks at paul_irish sneakily...
# [08:38] <paul_irish> >_>
# [08:38] <danbeam> ^^
# [08:38] <danbeam> :P
# [08:38] <tw2113> <_<
# [08:39] <danbeam> >>>(^o^)<<<
# [08:39] * tw2113 lifts his shirt >>
# [08:39] <snover> what the what
# [08:39] <tw2113> madonna-bra :O
# [08:39] <danbeam> snover: you said you *were* involved with jQuery
# [08:39] <tw2113> <_> crazy eye
# [08:40] <danbeam> snover: Y U NO CODE FOR FREE ANYMORE?
# [08:40] <snover> I did what I set out to do
# [08:40] <tw2113> snover codes for himself
# [08:40] <tw2113> and puts it out for others to benefit from
# [08:41] <danbeam> snover: well, thanks for your help <3 jQuery users
# [08:41] <danbeam> snover: :D
# [08:42] * Joins: solocio (~michael@HSI-KBW-078-043-068-129.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de)
# [08:43] <danbeam> snover: jQuery's definitely got one of the best code bases around, that's for sure, have been looking into a ton of libraries lately - some gross gross stuff underneath the covers
# [08:43] <snover> I’m not sure I would agree with that :)
# [08:43] <danbeam> snover: SWFObject, VOM
# [08:43] <tw2113> snover thanks for making dynamic pages easier for us "shit programmers" :D
# [08:43] <danbeam> snover: Prototype, VOM (some parts)
# [08:43] <danbeam> Modernizr, er.. it's cool, ;)
# [08:43] <snover> what is VOM?
# [08:44] <danbeam> VOM[IT]
# [08:44] <danbeam> YUI2/3 sometimes VOMIT, more WTF?
# [08:44] <tw2113> modernizr E>
# [08:44] <danbeam> (it's clean but sometimes wrong)
# [08:44] <snover> most of my time now i spend with dojo
# [08:44] <danbeam> with DM's fork? :P
# [08:45] * danbeam trolls
# [08:45] <snover> who?
# [08:45] <danbeam> David Mark
# [08:45] <danbeam> http://www.cinsoft.net/mylib.html
# [08:45] <snover> david mark is an idiot
# [08:45] <danbeam> if you don't know David Mark and Dojo's relationship it might be worth rummage
# [08:46] <danbeam> OK, so you do know him
# [08:46] <danbeam> heh
# [08:46] <danbeam> he's not really an idiot, but he's definitely an asshole
# [08:46] <danbeam> that's for sure
# [08:46] <kyxzme> whos david mark_
# [08:46] <danbeam> kyxzme: exactly, ;)
# [08:46] <tw2113> i'm with kyxzme
# [08:46] <snover> ok, asshole. :)
# [08:46] <kyxzme> Sorry I am new here
# [08:47] <snover> much more accurate.
# [08:47] <kyxzme> Ive just arrived to the world
# [08:47] <tw2113> who the fuck is douglas crawford?
# [08:47] <tw2113> :D
# [08:47] <danbeam> lolol
# [08:47] <danbeam> I mean
# [08:47] <danbeam> lawlawl
# [08:47] <snover> That was the word I was thinking of, it just came out differently
# [08:48] <snover> but you do have to be at least kind of an idiot to alienate yourself from an entire community of developers
# [08:48] <danbeam> kyxzme: he's a crazy dude that things he's the god of all JS because he's never typed the string navigator.userAgent
# [08:48] <danbeam> snover: agreed, he's definitely a social idiot
# [08:48] <danbeam> snover: undeniably
# [08:48] <kyxzme> danbeam: Ive never typed that too
# [08:48] <danbeam> snover: it's too bad, too, he seems like a pretty good dev
# [08:48] <snover> he creates puppet accounts to reply to himself with, too…
# [08:49] <snover> on his google group
# [08:49] <danbeam> snover: oh wow
# [08:49] <danbeam> snover: I'm not surprised
# [08:49] <kyxzme> So, please, build a statue for me. Before I kill you all with my superpowers
# [08:49] <danbeam> snover: that's awesomely crazy
# [08:49] <snover> anyway, that’s enough about that :)
# [08:50] <kyxzme> snover.dispose():
# [08:50] <danbeam> kyxzme: but you don't seem like the kind of dude that'd say this ... http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/msg/66b9c621c05cab74
# [08:51] <danbeam> snover: DM aside, has Dojo ever looked at incorporating his fork's feature tests?
# [08:52] <danbeam> snover: some of them actually to look useful...
# [08:52] <paul_irish> ever since he threatened a lawsuit over his open source code
# [08:52] <snover> Considering he threatened to sue Resig over some unit tests a while ago, anything he writes is poison
# [08:52] <paul_irish> i'm pretty sure everyone has decided to avoid his shit like the plague
# [08:52] <danbeam> haha, both said the same thing lol
# [08:52] <danbeam> yeah
# [08:52] <danbeam> likely
# [08:52] <kyxzme> Hey man
# [08:53] <kyxzme> how much you like to read bullshit?
# [08:53] <paul_irish> hey man
# [08:53] <tw2113> got it, avoid david mark
# [08:53] <paul_irish> avoid.
# [08:53] <kyxzme> danbeam: serious you would like to make me read ten pages of bullshits?
# [08:53] <paul_irish> kyxzme: dont read it.
# [08:53] <danbeam> kyxzme: lol, yeah
# [08:53] <tw2113> he just linked you, he didn't force you to read it
# [08:54] <danbeam> kyxzme: you get the point from the last line
# [08:54] <danbeam> kyxzme: Pretty lousy name too. Sencha doesn't exactly roll off the tongue,
# [08:54] <danbeam> does it?
# [08:54] <tw2113> my ID is worse :P
# [08:54] <kyxzme> Well I think the author can decide how to call his son
# [08:55] <danbeam> kyxzme: I think DM can go f%$# himself
# [08:55] <danbeam> kyxzme: TBQH
# [08:55] <paul_irish> so
# [08:55] <paul_irish> new topic.
# [08:55] <kyxzme> danbeam: I think all DMs have problems
# [08:55] <danbeam> but snover is right, we should get off this tpoic
# [08:55] <danbeam> topic*
# [08:55] <kyxzme> anyway
# [08:55] <tw2113> so how about that WTFPL
# [08:55] <kyxzme> I ve never used jQ frameworks for mobile
# [08:56] <kyxzme> I am a ObjC developer
# [08:56] <paul_irish> gross.
# [08:56] * danbeam agrees
# [08:56] <kyxzme> so in my hopinion he can fuck himself with his tongue while he is yelling "Senchaaaaa"
# [08:56] * danbeam also makes his living off of a lang that was hacked together in 1.5 weeks by one of the nerdiest dudes evar
# [08:57] <tw2113> someone define the phrase "new topic"
# [08:57] <tw2113> :P
# [08:57] <danbeam> jquery mobile or zepto?
# [08:57] <paul_irish> troll.
# [08:57] * danbeam begins new flame war?
# [08:57] * tw2113 aims the flamethrower at danbeam
# [08:58] <paul_irish> i'm very unsatified with the state of offline guidance/tutorials/libs
# [08:58] <kyxzme> Why you use jQ mobile frameworks
# [08:58] <tw2113> localstorage and whatnot?
# [08:58] <danbeam> paul_irish: of .. which one
# [08:58] <kyxzme> and not ObjC??
# [08:58] <danbeam> kyxzme: but I don't like iShit
# [08:58] <snover> wat
# [08:58] <snover> kyxzme: was that a real question?
# [08:59] <paul_irish> because i have a larger audience than the 10% of mobile users that are on iOS
# [08:59] <paul_irish> if you want to limit yourself like that
# [08:59] <snover> paul_irish: offline?
# [08:59] <paul_irish> go wild
# [08:59] <paul_irish> snover: yah offline, flaky connections, caching, etc
# [08:59] <paul_irish> shit needs to be generalized and de-mystified
# [09:00] <snover> so like, there’s no documentation about how to do it, or there is not documentation that can be used offline? :)
# [09:00] <kyxzme> objc is cute
# [09:00] <kyxzme> apple is a bitch
# [09:00] <paul_irish> former
# [09:00] <danbeam> paul_irish: I'm not really happy with <canvas> doc either, IMO, nor webgl
# [09:00] <snover> kyxzme: yeah, nothing cuter than fake OOP that gets preprocessed into wretched C :\
# [09:00] <danbeam> paul_irish: but it's prolly better...never looked at what you're talking about
# [09:01] <paul_irish> well i worked on gradient docs today
# [09:01] <paul_irish> so hopefully yOU LIKE THOSE
# [09:01] <danbeam> paul_irish: wait, what's the troll about between zepto jQMobile?
# [09:01] <snover> DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS
# [09:01] <danbeam> paul_irish: srs question
# [09:01] <snover> DON’T SIT DOWN
# [09:01] <danbeam> lolwut
# [09:01] <paul_irish> zepto is a faux jquery
# [09:01] <danbeam> paul_irish: it's got a "jQuery-like API" lololol
# [09:01] <paul_irish> jq mobile is a mobile ui and app state framework
# [09:01] <kyxzme> danbeam: <canvas> doc is well done nowhere, it sucks everywhere, i bought Pro HTML5 Programming and all I understood about <canvas> was nothing!
# [09:02] <snover> There’s not much to say about canvas
# [09:02] <danbeam> paul_irish: but you have to load jQuery and jQuery mobile ... on mobile
# [09:02] <paul_irish> yup.
# [09:02] <snover> though, there’s not much to say about offline stuff either…but possibly more than on canvas
# [09:02] <danbeam> snover: there's more in graphics, that's why people don't want to explain it as much to web developers (is my feeling)
# [09:02] <danbeam> paul_irish: that seem *real* heavy
# [09:03] <snover> well, the canvas 2d api is pretty…spartan
# [09:03] <snover> and then canvas 3d is webgl
# [09:03] <snover> which is the opposite of spartan
# [09:03] <danbeam> snover: yup, 3d would be a bit harder
# [09:03] <tw2113> yay early 90s Fox tv
# [09:03] <danbeam> snover: you mean I have to matrix math and 4D homongenous vectors?!
# [09:03] <danbeam> snover: gar
# [09:03] <danbeam> homogenous*'
# [09:04] <danbeam> paul_irish: jQuery is not a light lib (IMO)
# [09:04] <danbeam> paul_irish: on mobile + more seems rough
# [09:04] <kyxzme> You know its possible to build a <video> timeline using <canvas>??
# [09:04] <paul_irish> can't wait to launch onelessjpg
# [09:05] <paul_irish> kyxzme: yeah definitely
# [09:05] <danbeam> but this is coming from the dude that helps write a 290 KB lib
# [09:05] <danbeam> lol
# [09:05] <snover> I’m excited for dojo 1.7, personally
# [09:05] <danbeam> paul_irish: what's onelessjpg?
# [09:05] <snover> there’s some talk of splitting up the base lib even more
# [09:05] <paul_irish> we're launching it at jsconf
# [09:06] <paul_irish> you'llsee
# [09:06] <tw2113> .g github onelessjpg
# [09:06] <tw2113> ?g github onelessjpg
# [09:06] <danbeam> snover: I personally would be OK with deferred loading of things you can't do til DOMReady anyways
# [09:06] <bot-t> tw2113, No results found for 'github onelessjpg'.
# [09:06] <tw2113> so many bots, so many ways to use commands
# [09:06] <snover> danbeam: I’m not sure how you would defer loading of things that are needed *at* domready any more efficiently than already occurs
# [09:06] <danbeam> snover: https://github.com/danbeam/lazyquery <-- I hacked something together partly a while ago
# [09:07] <paul_irish> danbeam: basically people are way more quick to argue about js library size than they are to consider setting expires headers or compressing their images
# [09:07] <kyxzme> You know if theres still an hope to see WebSQL reintegrated_
# [09:07] <kyxzme> I really like that..
# [09:07] <paul_irish> websql is gonna stay in webkit and opera for.. a while
# [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: I do everything but smush.it
# [09:08] <snover> kyxzme: it’s dead brotha
# [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: and sprite (well, sometimes)
# [09:08] <tw2113> danbeam here's the github page if you want to watch it https://github.com/ajpiano/onelessjpg
# [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: and but thinkin about that lately
# [09:08] <kyxzme> snover: I hope not.. :(
# [09:08] <snover> paul_irish: it absolutely blows my mind the things people forget to do when optimising page loads
# [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: <script>window.jQuery || document.write("<script src='js/jquery-1.5.2.min.js'>\x3C/script>")</script>
# [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: srs
# [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: ?
# [09:09] <snover> kyxzme: http://dev.w3.org/html5/webdatabase/
# [09:09] <paul_irish> ya srs
# [09:09] <snover> kyxzme: big-ass warning
# [09:09] <danbeam> paul_irish: it's amazing people still use document.write, :/
# [09:09] <paul_irish> sorry i like to develop while i'm offline.
# [09:09] <snover> weirdo
# [09:09] <snover> who goes offline!?
# [09:09] <danbeam> paul_irish: oh, I see, it's for offline use
# [09:09] <paul_irish> yes
# [09:09] <danbeam> snover: <3 DVCS
# [09:10] <paul_irish> its not for "omg the google jsut went down"
# [09:10] <snover> I break out in a cold sweat whenever my cable modem goes down
# [09:10] <danbeam> paul_irish: haha
# [09:10] <danbeam> snover: yeah, I'm on SSH to my homebox non-stop using Bitlbee -- if it goes down I'm fucked
# [09:10] <tw2113> looks like session/local storage won out?
# [09:10] <danbeam> snover, paul_irish one of the things I really like about YUI is the module system
# [09:11] <tw2113> sadly, half of one of the chapters in bruce and remy's book got invalidated
# [09:11] <snover> danbeam: have you actually perf tested this script vs loading jquery at the </body>?
# [09:11] <danbeam> snover, paul_irish sadly it adds complexity if actually done at a user level, though, so probably not a candidate for jQUery, :(
# [09:11] <paul_irish> tw2113: indexeddb supercedes websqldb
# [09:11] <tw2113> ahh
# [09:11] <snover> indexeddb is hot though
# [09:11] <snover> so don’t be sad
# [09:11] <danbeam> snover: uh, with what tool? YSlow? Pagespeed?
# [09:12] <snover> danbeam: with a stopwatch
# [09:12] <danbeam> snover: heh
# [09:12] <danbeam> snover: it doesn't block the page
# [09:12] <danbeam> snover: that's the point
# [09:12] <snover> you’re adding another RTT
# [09:12] <danbeam> snover: and 100ms for another HTTP conn
# [09:12] <danbeam> snover: yup
# [09:12] <tw2113> i still need to re-pick up my localstorage stuff from the other night, i'm new with actual js use
# [09:12] * Quits: patcito (~123@190.42.235.145) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
# [09:12] <danbeam> snover: unless... you inline it =O
# [09:12] <snover> if jquery is the last thing to load before your user scripts, it’s pointless…
# [09:13] <danbeam> snover: if you hit a dry cache with Firebug and your browser crashes
# [09:13] <danbeam> snover: it feels real bad
# [09:13] <danbeam> snover: (happend to me many times before)
# [09:13] <danbeam> happened*
# [09:13] <snover> er?
# [09:13] <danbeam> (though I know the reply -- not typical conditions)
# [09:14] <danbeam> it's unfortunate that *tons* of people host their own version of jQuery though
# [09:14] <snover> danbeam: I think you may be optimising for a situation that does not exist
# [09:14] <danbeam> way bad for cacheability
# [09:14] <snover> danbeam: there are so many different version of jquery in the wild that using a cdn actually makes your page load slower in many cases
# [09:15] <danbeam> snover: why, exactly?
# [09:15] <tw2113> night everyone
# [09:15] <snover> because you end up having to do another dns lookup and new tcp handshake and window opening to a new server and blah blah blah
# [09:15] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.)
# [09:15] <snover> instead of no extra dns lookup and a new request on a keep-alive’d tcp connection
# [09:15] <danbeam> snover: my thinking would be ... it's geographically closer and you have a much better chance of getting cached
# [09:15] <danbeam> snover: meh, depends
# [09:15] <snover> danbeam: it’s been studied, let me see if I can find a study.
# [09:15] <danbeam> snover: on the TTL of Google and the ISP's caching etc. etc.
# [09:16] <snover> no
# [09:16] <danbeam> snover: $10 says your dig ajax.googlewhatever.com doesn't go to a root name server
# [09:16] <danbeam> snover: (if you don't add the +recurse, lol)
# [09:16] <danbeam> snover: or whatever it is
# [09:16] <snover> danbeam: that doesn’t matter, the browser is still going to need to do a dns lookup and that adds latency
# [09:16] <snover> and having to do a full tcp handshake adds latency
# [09:16] <danbeam> snover: there's 3 tradeoffs here, seems like, maybe 4
# [09:17] <danbeam> snover: first, extra HTTP conn from my way - and possibly DNS
# [09:17] <danbeam> snover: both are delay
# [09:17] <danbeam> snover: DNS = UDP or TCP, quick as possible and dumb, HTTP = slower and kinda expensive
# [09:17] <kyxzme> Whats the killer spec of html5 for you_
# [09:18] <danbeam> snover: but jQuery would delay overall rendering until the script has synchronously downloaded, parsed, compiled, and executed
# [09:18] <kyxzme> I think the most interesting are websockets, webworkers, applicationcache~manifests, and webstorage
# [09:18] <snover> danbeam: no it would not
# [09:18] <danbeam> snover: whereas mine just stores all the $(function(){})s in a queue
# [09:18] <paul_irish> good choices.
# [09:18] <paul_irish> and filesystem
# [09:18] <danbeam> so it's about perceived vs. actual
# [09:18] <snover> danbeam: rendering is not blocked if you put the script at </body>
# [09:18] <danbeam> snover: alot of folks don't do that
# [09:19] <danbeam> snover: especially if they have other things in the page they're using jQuery for
# [09:19] <snover> and you think that folks that don’t do that are going to want to use a separate loader script? :\
# [09:19] <danbeam> snover: but WORSE is that nobody combines their jQ plugins
# [09:19] <danbeam> snover: you make it transparent
# [09:19] <danbeam> snover: to them
# [09:19] <danbeam> snover: they never have to know
# [09:19] <snover> again
# [09:19] <danbeam> snover: PLUS, if you make up for the load time by loading jQ in 2 hunks
# [09:19] <snover> please do an actual test
# [09:20] <snover> using dynatrace or something
# [09:20] <danbeam> snover: you might be able to get same actual time
# [09:20] <snover> and a proxy to emulate real world conditions
# [09:20] <danbeam> snover: dare you to, :P
# [09:20] <snover> and then tell me how much faster your solution is
# [09:20] <snover> I pretty much guarantee you it will be a waste
# [09:20] <danbeam> snover: you don't even work for jQuery any more, :P
# [09:20] <paul_irish> EVIDENCE IS FOR LOOZERS
# [09:20] <snover> but I might be wrong
# [09:20] <snover> and then everyone can be happy
# [09:20] <danbeam> no, I'm just busy writing preso for JSConf
# [09:20] <snover> but I don’t think I am wrong
# [09:20] <paul_irish> danbeam: you're coming?
# [09:20] <paul_irish> i keep forgetting
# [09:21] <danbeam> paul_irish: srsly?
# [09:21] <paul_irish> SRY
# [09:21] <paul_irish> I FORGET EVERYTHING
# [09:21] <danbeam> ?csb
# [09:21] <bot-t> cool story, bro. http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt71/Pittsburghistan/xb9yt0jpg-1.gif
# [09:21] <paul_irish> that didnt work
# [09:21] <paul_irish> ?hero
# [09:21] <bot-t> <linda_hoxman>: HERO HERO HERO HERO HERO HERO
# [09:21] <danbeam> those are coming in handy lately
# [09:21] <snover> and trying to tell people your thing makes their perf better when you have no actual proof except for a hunch kinda sucks
# [09:21] <snover> especially if it turns out that it’s not true at all, then you just look bad
# [09:21] <danbeam> snover: no, dude
# [09:21] <snover> and I don’t want you to look bad
# [09:21] <danbeam> snover: I don't think you're wrong that it'll be slower in actual time
# [09:21] <danbeam> snover: but perceived
# [09:21] <danbeam> snover: is different
# [09:21] <snover> it will be slower in all cases
# [09:22] <danbeam> snover: OK OK, I'll get numbers for you soon enough
# [09:22] <snover> versus loading scripts at the bottom of the body
# [09:22] <danbeam> snover: so can I make a dry request every time?
# [09:22] <danbeam> snover: not primed
# [09:22] <danbeam> snover: ;) ?
# [09:22] <danbeam> snover: and see when the DOM is ready faster?
# [09:22] <danbeam> snover: with my 1K or all of jQuery?
# [09:22] <snover> you would want to test and average multiple runs both with a cold cache and with a warm cache
# [09:22] <danbeam> :D
# [09:22] <paul_irish> gnight bros
# [09:22] <danbeam> paul_irish: late
# [09:23] <danbeam> snover: ok
# [09:23] <snover> http://zoompf.com/blog/2010/01/should-you-use-javascript-library-cdns
# [09:23] <danbeam> snover: and a reminder, my way would force more folks to use the CDN, so we'll see
# [09:24] <danbeam> snover: P.S. you know DNS is cached in browsers, OS, and ISP, right?
# [09:24] <danbeam> snover: and is a dumb fast protocol that returns a packet, right?
# [09:25] <snover> danbeam: you know that ajax.googleapis.com is a CDATA record *and* that the TTL is 300, right?
# [09:25] <danbeam> snover: (assuming you do, just making sure, you've been smarter than me on every issue tonight...)
# [09:25] <danbeam> snover: oh lawd
# [09:25] <danbeam> snover: really?
# [09:25] <snover> yes.
# [09:25] <danbeam> aw shit
# [09:25] <danbeam> that sucks
# [09:25] <danbeam> 5 min + second look up?
# [09:25] <danbeam> gar
# [09:25] <danbeam> confidence waining
# [09:26] <danbeam> waning*
# [09:26] <kyxzme> why should i have to give my files to google?
# [09:26] <danbeam> snover: despite this, I did hit a cached response
# [09:26] <danbeam> snover: even though I'm the only dev at Yahoo! at 12:20 am
# [09:26] <danbeam> snover: :D
# [09:27] <kyxzme> danbeam: do you work for yahoo_
# [09:27] <snover> There is another article I can’t find that compared the load speeds of top sites that use CDNs versus ones that do not use CDNs and there was no performance benefit found for CDNs
# [09:27] <snover> of course this doesn’t compare the same site once using a CDN and once not
# [09:27] <snover> so
# [09:27] <snover> it’s hard to say that a CDN is worthless
# [09:27] <danbeam> snover: also, awesomely, guess where that site is loading its JS?
# [09:28] <snover> but there doesn’t seem to be a lot of conclusive evidence to suggest that it provides a significant benefit
# [09:28] <danbeam> (http://zoompf.com/blog/2010/01/should-you-use-javascript-library-cdns)
# [09:28] <snover> danbeam: zoompf has some issues :P
# [09:28] <danbeam> snover: the *actual* perf is slower, the perceived perf and time til DOM Ready is faster
# [09:28] <danbeam> though if you're only use jQuery effectively when the DOM is ready
# [09:28] <snover> yes yes, I understand perceived performance
# [09:28] <danbeam> that might not be that useful
# [09:29] <kyxzme> danbeam: do you work for yahoo? ~2
# [09:29] <danbeam> kyxzme: yup
# [09:29] <danbeam> snover: am I allowed to inline my JS for lazyquery?
# [09:29] <danbeam> :D
# [09:29] <danbeam> snover: seems like a valid test
# [09:29] <snover> probably not, because if it is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, people aren’t likely to inline it
# [09:29] <danbeam> snover: I know it's less cacheable (in a sense)
# [09:29] <kyxzme> what the hell!
# [09:29] <kyxzme> I want to work for yahoo too!
# [09:29] <danbeam> snover: we'll see
# [09:29] <danbeam> kyxzme: glad someone has that sentiment
# [09:30] <kyxzme> :{
# [09:30] <snover> It’s also worth pointing out that many people that load scripts in the head of their page are intentionally blocking rendering
# [09:30] <danbeam> kyxzme: some don't
# [09:30] <snover> because their site doesn’t work right without the JS
# [09:30] <danbeam> snover: I know
# [09:30] <kyxzme> danbeam: yahoo looks big :{
# [09:30] <snover> and if people start clicking around without it then their omg shiny ajax buttons don’t work
# [09:30] <snover> OMG AJAX SHINY
# [09:30] <snover> OMG
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# [09:30] <danbeam> snover: so you load the part of jQuery that needs to be there before DOMReady (core, ajax)
# [09:30] <danbeam> snover: and then start a req. for the second half behind the scenes
# [09:31] <danbeam> snover: but we'll see, that might not be as helpful
# [09:31] <snover> danbeam: hhahahaha. see, I like what you’re thinking
# [09:31] <snover> but
# [09:31] <snover> I know the innards of the lib
# [09:31] <danbeam> snover: they're not isolated?
# [09:31] <snover> probably 90% of the library depends on other modules of the library
# [09:31] <danbeam> snover: :(
# [09:31] <danbeam> snover: I know it a bit, too, but probably not as well as you
# [09:32] <snover> that fact drives me crazy as well
# [09:32] <snover> (mostly because I want to see custom modular builds)
# [09:32] <danbeam> snover: prolly harder to test as well
# [09:32] <danbeam> snover: yeah, that'd be cool
# [09:32] <danbeam> snover: there's been alot of feature bloat
# [09:32] <danbeam> snover: over the years
# [09:32] <snover> but the fact of the matter is that I think the only things that don’t depend on something else are…effects and dimensions
# [09:32] <danbeam> snover: DOM?
# [09:33] <danbeam> snover: Sizzle?
# [09:33] <danbeam> snover: http://api.jquery.com has gotten way too long, lol
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# [09:33] <snover> well, sizzle doesn’t depend on anything else
# [09:33] <snover> but it’s not “core and ajax” :)
# [09:33] <snover> core depends on sizzle
# [09:33] <danbeam> for what reason, though?
# [09:33] <danbeam> feature tests in it or something?
# [09:33] <snover> for selecting elements? :)
# [09:34] <snover> cuz that’s what $ does? :)
# [09:34] <snover> the dom manipulation stuff…
# [09:34] <danbeam> but you can't do that
# [09:34] <danbeam> until dom is ready
# [09:34] <snover> I’ll have to double-check
# [09:34] <danbeam> :|
# [09:34] <danbeam> well, I guess you'd know...
# [09:34] <danbeam> just iterators and AJAX seem to be the things you'd need synchronously at first
# [09:35] <snover> with the way the lib is written right now
# [09:35] <snover> let’s see
# [09:35] <danbeam> snover: I don't see Sizzle in core
# [09:36] <snover> danbeam: jQuery.find is sizzle
# [09:36] <danbeam> but is it possible to call that before DOM is ready?
# [09:37] <snover> maybe you can get lucky
# [09:37] <snover> I guess I am thinking more in terms of build dependencies
# [09:37] <danbeam> haha, you couldn't "get lucky", lol
# [09:37] <danbeam> you'd have to check to make sure it wouldn't
# [09:37] <snover> rather than in terms of “what functionality can’t work anyway without the dom being ready”
# [09:38] <danbeam> but I'm guessing you're just joking
# [09:39] <snover> In terms of inextricable components… ajax, deferred, data, core, event, sizzle, support
# [09:39] <snover> are all very much commingled
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# [09:40] <danbeam> snover: yeah, you're right, they are
# [09:40] <snover> and are probably well over half the library, but I can’t say for certain
# [09:40] <danbeam> where is jQuery.ready?
# [09:41] <danbeam> nvm
# [09:42] <danbeam> readyList.done( fn ); // doing something similar -- just waiting here, but the code's all there already
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# [09:43] <snover> oops, it’s late
# [09:43] <snover> time to sleep!
# [09:43] <danbeam> snover: word, nice talking with ya
# [09:43] <snover> gn danbeam :)
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# [10:02] <kyxzme> bye
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# [12:29] <Mafia> Hi, I have html5.mobi and looking to develop :( anyideas?
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# [13:13] <mikesusz> wow i got excited about using selectivizr for a project until i found out it gives you css3 selectors but not css2
# [13:14] <mikesusz> i just want adjacent sib/child selectors in ie. bleh
# [13:14] <acies> see how f.ex. jquery does it
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# [16:18] <b1lly> I'm having trouble using the <video> tag to play video on my android
# [16:19] <moo-_-> just balls
# [16:19] <moo-_-> oopps
# [16:20] <moo-_-> b1lly: it is probably the source material encoding causing the problem,
# [16:20] <moo-_-> b1lly: which devices you have tested?
# [16:20] <moo-_-> b1lly: does it work on any device?
# [16:20] <b1lly> uhm i only have an android, BUT
# [16:20] <b1lly> I got it to work on safari, mozilla and chrome
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# [16:21] <b1lly> http://dev.westechsolutions.com/structure/projects/development/websites/clients/beeharris/qr/
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# [16:24] <b1lly> any suggestion moo-_-?
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# [16:31] <moo-_-> b1lly: does it play video clip standalone if you open it from URL directly?
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# [17:15] <b1lly> moo-_-: by directly going to the video url int he phone? ya
# [17:15] <b1lly> it plays
# [17:17] <b1lly> i got it to work on the iphone now but it dont autoplay
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# [17:17] <b1lly> it works in mozilla chrome and safari, but still giving me trouble on my droid
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# [19:38] <b1lly> i'm having trouble with the video element working on my android; however it works in all browsers, and even iphone
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# [19:40] <tw2113> what file format?
# [19:40] <tw2113> and if you want, i can test as well, i have my droid with me
# [19:40] <snover> more pertinently, what profile level?
# [19:41] <tw2113> and did the video tag call vote for or against obama?
# [19:41] <tw2113> #importantquestions
# [19:41] <snover> anything above baseline @ level 3.1 is not likely to go down well
# [19:42] <b1lly> tw2113: it's a mp4 file format that I want to work on android
# [19:42] <b1lly> or at least thats what I read works with android
# [19:43] <tw2113> what browser?
# [19:44] <tw2113> stock?
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# [19:48] <tw2113> http://imgfave.com/view/1312486
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# [19:49] <b1lly> tw2113: yes
# [19:49] <b1lly> http://dev.westechsolutions.com/structure/projects/development/websites/clients/beeharris/qr/
# [19:49] <b1lly> try it in your android
# [19:49] <snover> b1lly: what is the profile level of the encoded video?
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# [19:51] <b1lly> no idea? i was given the mp4, and i used the miro video converter to convert it to all the formats
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# [19:52] <snover> b1lly: MediaInfo will tell you.
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# [19:54] <b1lly> heh
# [19:55] <tw2113> firefox mobile picked up the ogv, and i'm assuming opera mobile is too
# [19:56] <tw2113> stock and dolphin browser aren't doing anything for displayig
# [19:56] <tw2113> ing*
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# [20:03] <kyxzme> hi brothas
# [20:04] <b1lly> tw2113: so what do you suggest
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# [20:05] <tw2113> researching what format the android browsers take and what profile levels are required
# [20:05] <b1lly> well'
# [20:05] <b1lly> it is set to h.264 ?
# [20:05] <b1lly> or w/e
# [20:05] <tw2113> sadly <video> is far from ubiquitous thanks to format wars
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# [20:05] <b1lly> everything i read said that mp4 is for droids
# [20:05] <tw2113> *shrug* i haven't tinkered with the tag that much yet
# [20:06] <b1lly> but it dont work in the browser
# [20:06] <b1lly> however if i goto the file directly it plays fine
# [20:06] <tw2113> so it does play the file directly, just not through <video> ?
# [20:06] <b1lly> ya
# [20:07] <tw2113> then it's a browser issue
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# [20:07] <kyxzme> Regarding <video>
# [20:07] <kyxzme> I am the only one thinking WebM sucks?
# [20:07] <tw2113> i don't know if the stock browser with android supports <video> yet
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# [20:07] <b1lly> is there a way to detect android and just url redirect to the file directly
# [20:07] <b1lly> lol
# [20:08] <b1lly> yeah nm i can do that
# [20:08] <tw2113> ua sniffing
# [20:08] <b1lly> but that doesnt solve my problem becuz i want the viewer to be able to clik a link to the website itself
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# [20:08] <tw2113> they still could, it just wouldn't play above
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# [20:10] <tw2113> welcome to the edge :)
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# [20:12] <b1lly> yeah :-/
# [20:14] <b1lly> theres got a be a way >_<
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# [21:58] <tw2113> nimbupani i have a question for ya
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# [21:58] <nimbupani> ask tw2113
# [21:59] <tw2113> for that article in .Net Magazine, did you approach them and propose your idea for the article? or did they come to you and say "would you like to write about something?"
# [22:00] <paul_irish> nimbupani gets approached all the time, unsurprisingly
# [22:01] <paul_irish> but srsly
# [22:01] <paul_irish> they approached her
# [22:01] <tw2113> just curious because it'd be fun to try and come up with something that they'd find worthy to publish, but wasn't sure how they handled the topic
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# [22:01] <paul_irish> but i imagine one could talk to them
# [22:01] <paul_irish> me and divya have contact info
# [22:01] <tw2113> not that i have a good topic idea at the moment
# [22:01] <paul_irish> well
# [22:01] <paul_irish> 15 things you had no idea you could do with css3
# [22:02] <paul_irish> Letting go of jQuery for HTML5 Developers
# [22:02] <tw2113> i'm probably putting the carriage in front of the horse at the moment :D, but i have time available to brainstorm, so who knows
# [22:02] <paul_irish> The 6 month summary of HTML5 developments that you need to know NOW
# [22:02] <nimbupani> tw2113: u should just publish it on ur blog
# [22:02] <nimbupani> and link it here
# [22:02] <paul_irish> also that.
# [22:03] <paul_irish> also my ideas were great ^
# [22:03] <paul_irish> #justsayin
# [22:03] <nimbupani> have at least 10 or so posts before u approach anyone with articles.
# [22:03] <nimbupani> your ideas are always great paul_irish
# [22:03] <tw2113> does it help that Dan Oliver follows me on twtter? :D
# [22:04] <tw2113> i'll see what i can come up with, and perhaps get to writing some #coolshit
# [22:07] <tw2113> i already wish i had paulrouget's brain
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# [22:50] <danbeam> paul_irish: http://paulirish.com/2010/high-res-browser-icons/ <-- can you even use these in your own talk?
# [22:50] <danbeam> talks**
# [22:51] <danbeam> "Yeah.. since I only collected these I can't throw a license on it. So you're on your own! :)"
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# [23:14] * danbeam takes that as a maybe, :D
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# [23:50] <benv> so, quick poll
# [23:50] <benv> what qualifies as third-party js to you guys?
# [23:51] <benv> i.e. do you consider jquery a third-party lib? or do you think specifically of the situation where you're injecting code coming from a third-party server?
# [23:53] <paul_irish> while i may instantiate it from within my code
# [23:53] <paul_irish> besides that i dont rely on it
# [23:53] <paul_irish> but yeah its coming from.. a widget or ad house
# [23:55] <benv> yeah, that's generally my feeling too, but i think the opinion is mixed
# [23:57] <benv> my feeling is the "strict" definition is anything you didn't write, i.e. libs
# [23:58] <benv> but that's not what people first think of
# [23:59] <benv> i'm of the mind to say that anywhere you do <script src="..."> and it's pointing to a server you don't control, that's third-party js
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# Session Close: Sun May 01 00:00:00 2011

The end :)