/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-04-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Apr 30 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: ybon (~ybon@81.93.12.28) (Quit: Pingouin timed out)
  4. # [00:00] <grantg> paul_irish: Conversion from binary string to an integer array is voodoo still in JS
  5. # [00:00] <paul_irish> agreed.
  6. # [00:00] <grantg> even if you do it right, the browser might have edge cases not documented
  7. # [00:00] <grantg> because we're reading it off as ASCII or unicode depending on the browser support. O_O
  8. # [00:01] <grantg> lolwtf
  9. # [00:01] <paul_irish> grantg: if you find something not documented
  10. # [00:01] <grantg> there needs to be a string function
  11. # [00:01] <paul_irish> let #devmo know on the moz IRC
  12. # [00:01] <grantg> to do this easily
  13. # [00:01] <paul_irish> either me or someone else can drop in whatever you found out
  14. # [00:01] <paul_irish> (assuming you're too busy do write it yourself, which is fine)
  15. # [00:01] <grantg> +1 .toInt8Array
  16. # [00:01] <grantg> heh
  17. # [00:01] <grantg> paul_irish: No prob, I can help
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  19. # [00:02] * grantg thinks there needs to be an extension to the String object that directly converts the String to a typed array.
  20. # [00:02] <grantg> + infinity
  21. # [00:03] * Joins: TheLifelessOne (~Alexander@c-98-251-140-8.hsd1.ms.comcast.net)
  22. # [00:03] <grantg> since the fromCharCode/toCharCode is not made for string to int, but rather string to unicode value, if that makes sense to anyone
  23. # [00:04] <TheLifelessOne> Hi, small question. Does HTML5 allow <script src="..." />?
  24. # [00:04] <paul_irish> no
  25. # [00:04] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@64.202.138.67)
  26. # [00:04] <paul_irish> i saw a good explanation of why recently.
  27. # [00:04] <danbeam> miketaylr: you work for Opera, right?
  28. # [00:04] <miketaylr> i do danbeam
  29. # [00:04] <paul_irish> something like script elems are content flow elems
  30. # [00:04] <TheLifelessOne> Mhm.
  31. # [00:04] <paul_irish> and therefore they cannot be selfclosed
  32. # [00:05] <paul_irish> and must have content
  33. # [00:05] <paul_irish> like empty string content
  34. # [00:05] <TheLifelessOne> That makes sense.
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  36. # [00:05] <paul_irish> agree it's lame
  37. # [00:05] <danbeam> miketaylr: ok, you're in my slides, :D
  38. # [00:05] <miketaylr> yay
  39. # [00:05] <miketaylr> unless its like THIS GUY SUCKS
  40. # [00:05] <TheLifelessOne> Still, it'd be nice to not have to add that oh-so-ugly </script> at the end.
  41. # [00:05] <danbeam> miketaylr: it's an apology to you that Yahoo! calls Opera C grade
  42. # [00:05] <danbeam> miketaylr: lolol
  43. # [00:05] <miketaylr> :D
  44. # [00:05] <danbeam> miketaylr: and we pretty much totally support Opera (as a team), so yay!
  45. # [00:06] <miketaylr> ?hi5 @ danbeam
  46. # [00:06] <grantg> YO DAWG, VIEW SOURCE http://www.grantgalitz.org/gameboy/ <script src="..."/> FTFY FTFY
  47. # [00:06] <bot-t> danbeam, ⁵
  48. # [00:06] <grantg> XHTML WIN
  49. # [00:06] <danbeam> miketaylr: I think I didn't both with an Opera 8 bug the other day, but 9+ is ok, I think
  50. # [00:06] <miketaylr> muahahaha
  51. # [00:06] <miketaylr> i wouldn't bother with an 8 bug
  52. # [00:06] <danbeam> miketaylr: have Opera 8.53 in a VM or something
  53. # [00:06] <miketaylr> there's gotta be like 28 users
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  55. # [00:06] <danbeam> miketaylr: srsly less than that, I'd bet
  56. # [00:06] <miketaylr> i could probably look it up
  57. # [00:07] <danbeam> miketaylr: haha, do it
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  59. # [00:07] <grantg> paul_irish: I haz valid <script src="..." />
  60. # [00:07] <miketaylr> i remember looking at stats for like 9.20 and it was .01% of our userbase or something awesome
  61. # [00:07] <paul_irish> XHTML is verboten.
  62. # [00:07] * Quits: hubble (~hubble@173-165-61-105-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: hubble)
  63. # [00:08] <grantg> application/xhtml+xml FTW
  64. # [00:08] <danbeam> grantg: lol
  65. # [00:08] <danbeam> grantg: super cool story
  66. # [00:08] <paul_irish> ?csb @ grantg
  67. # [00:08] <bot-t> grantg, cool story, bro. http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt71/Pittsburghistan/xb9yt0jpg-1.gif
  68. # [00:08] <grantg> cool story bro
  69. # [00:08] <danbeam> awesome
  70. # [00:08] <danbeam> OMG THAT ANIMOOTED GIF ROCKS
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  72. # [00:09] <grantg> This is the good side of application/xhtml+xml
  73. # [00:09] <grantg> ^_^
  74. # [00:10] <grantg> SIR, THIS PAGE IS COMING UP AS application/xhtml+xml, what do you think we should do?
  75. # [00:10] <grantg> SELF CLOSE EVERYTHING
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  79. # [00:16] <grantg> heh
  80. # [00:16] <grantg> twitter is down
  81. # [00:17] <zewt> you should twit about it
  82. # [00:17] <grantg> someone needs to animate the fail whale. <-
  83. # [00:17] <sedovsek> zewt :))
  84. # [00:17] <grantg> +1 zewt
  85. # [00:17] <zewt> irc: twitter's failover server
  86. # [00:17] <grantg> true
  87. # [00:17] <grantg> and reddit's failover server
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  89. # [00:18] <grantg> #redditdowntime
  90. # [00:18] <grantg> :/
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  139. # [01:20] <grantg> paul_irish: http://i.imgur.com/IbgXU.jpg
  140. # [01:20] <grantg> IE8 done goofed
  141. # [01:21] <grantg> the blue area is circling what should be visible
  142. # [01:21] <grantg> but it seems IE8 failed absolute positioning classically. :/
  143. # [01:21] <grantg> Stick that in the positioniseverything site. :P
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  145. # [01:23] <grantg> IE8 fails to handle many cases of mixed relative and absolute positioning
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  148. # [01:24] <grantg> paul_irish: Update the acid 2 test? </troll>
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  163. # [02:14] <paul_irish> nobody cares about your stupid XHTML bugs
  164. # [02:14] <paul_irish> beeyotch
  165. # [02:14] <paul_irish> go to #xhtml
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  171. # [02:22] <benv> heh
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  177. # [02:33] <tw2113> <meta name="description" content="We build sites and apps for web and mobile. BTW, you look very nice today.">
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  180. # [02:36] <tw2113> anyone know if this is legitimate script or just someone having fun? "EP.wait('inquire')"
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  194. # [03:12] <tw2113> what are some peoples opinions about SASS vs LESS?
  195. # [03:12] <paul_irish> great!
  196. # [03:12] <paul_irish> dont use less clientside.
  197. # [03:12] <paul_irish> otherwise, both are great!
  198. # [03:13] <tw2113> i'm considering giving them some test runs
  199. # [03:13] <tw2113> if anything, give me an edge up on other people :D, it would make a good resume item
  200. # [03:17] <tw2113> i wonder how well they'd work with WordPress
  201. # [03:20] <paul_irish> me too.
  202. # [03:26] <tw2113> http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/wp-less/
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  209. # [04:03] <tw2113> ?g less
  210. # [04:03] <bot-t> tw2113, LESS The Dynamic Stylesheet language - http://lesscss.org/
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  253. # [05:25] <tw2113> rain!
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  255. # [05:28] <themiddleman> snow!
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  265. # [06:04] <zewt> fireballs
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  268. # [06:12] <paul_irish> well he won.
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  272. # [06:19] <themiddleman> I think I am going to not check twitter for the next week, I dont want to be reminded Im not at jsconf :/
  273. # [06:20] * Joins: snover (~Adium@unaffiliated/snover)
  274. # [06:21] <tw2113> but then you'd miss out on all the post royal wedding tweets
  275. # [06:21] <tw2113> oh wait that'd be a blessing
  276. # [06:23] <danbeam> paul_irish: do you know much about legality of images in presentations?
  277. # [06:23] <paul_irish> i know for google io we basically cant use any image we dont own
  278. # [06:23] <danbeam> paul_irish: damn, like I suspected, :(
  279. # [06:23] <snover> danbeam: same as any other media
  280. # [06:23] <paul_irish> ya
  281. # [06:23] <danbeam> snover: what's the copyright on any other media in presentations, haha?
  282. # [06:23] <paul_irish> i think you only get caught on that shit at confs of a certain size
  283. # [06:24] <paul_irish> clearly most people dont care
  284. # [06:24] <danbeam> snover: or legality of using copyrighted material
  285. # [06:24] * Joins: jmburnz (~jmburnz@c83-249-5-78.bredband.comhem.se)
  286. # [06:24] <snover> if it’s copyrighted without some sort of CC license that allows you to use it, then you can’t use it
  287. # [06:24] <paul_irish> ^
  288. # [06:24] <snover> unless you get permission from the copyright owner
  289. # [06:24] <danbeam> snover: what about implicit copyright?
  290. # [06:24] <snover> all copyright is implicit.
  291. # [06:25] <danbeam> snover: so if an image is on a site without any copyright it's implicitly copyrighted the same way?
  292. # [06:25] <tw2113> go for creative commons or public domain stuff
  293. # [06:25] <danbeam> snover: it must explicitly say Creative Commons?
  294. # [06:25] <tw2113> correct on implicent
  295. # [06:25] <snover> Anything after, um…1986? is automatically copyrighted
  296. # [06:25] <tw2113> implicate*
  297. # [06:25] <danbeam> snover: so I'm copyrighted? lol
  298. # [06:26] * Joins: niftylettuce (~niftylett@h247.119.232.68.ip.windstream.net)
  299. # [06:26] <tw2113> i could snap a photo with my camera phone, upload to my website, and show you, but it'd be copywritten to me
  300. # [06:26] <danbeam> tw2113: yeah, that's stupid, P.S.
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  302. # [06:26] <danbeam> tw2113: unelss I copyright my face as a brand or logo
  303. # [06:26] <tw2113> i think we need copyright reform
  304. # [06:26] <danbeam> tw2113: or copyright my fist in your camera's lens, lol
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  306. # [06:26] <snover> danbeam: if it’s a brand it’s trademark, not copyright
  307. # [06:26] <danbeam> snover: oh, my bad
  308. # [06:26] <nickbaugh> paul_irish: *waves*
  309. # [06:27] <paul_irish> :)
  310. # [06:27] * tw2113 donates to CC $10/month or so
  311. # [06:27] <paul_irish> good man
  312. # [06:27] <danbeam> snover, paul_irish, tw2113 perfect for slide of script minification/combination http://www.weruletheinternet.com/wp-content/uploads/images/2010/november/puppies/puppy_dogs_22.jpg
  313. # [06:27] <danbeam> BUT NO
  314. # [06:27] * danbeam sulks
  315. # [06:28] <snover> so good it doesn’t allow direct linking even without a referrer
  316. # [06:28] <snover> you stay classy, weruletheinternet.com
  317. # [06:28] <danbeam> snover: haha
  318. # [06:28] <tw2113> i also release stuff when i can under wtfpl :D
  319. # [06:28] <danbeam> snover: really, it didn't work for you?
  320. # [06:28] <tw2113> it sent me to google.com
  321. # [06:28] <snover> the irony being that…everything on that site is probably a copyright infringement
  322. # [06:28] <danbeam> yeah, lame, it's so strange how browsers forward referers for you sometimes
  323. # [06:28] <danbeam> snover: yeah, for realz
  324. # [06:29] <danbeam> snover: i was thinking the same thing
  325. # [06:29] <paul_irish> HERE U GO SNOVER http://paulirish.com/i/9a00.png
  326. # [06:29] <snover> OMG PUPPPPPPPIIIIIIIEEEESSSSSSSSSS
  327. # [06:29] <snover> SO KYUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTT
  328. # [06:29] <paul_irish> :D:D:D
  329. # [06:29] <nickbaugh> danbeam: i don't always test my code, but when I do, I do it in production ... ;)
  330. # [06:29] <paul_irish> nice one danbeam
  331. # [06:29] <danbeam> lol, as if http://www.weruletheinternet.com/wp-content/uploads/images/2010/november/puppies/puppy_dogs_22.jpg <-- that didn't give it away
  332. # [06:29] <snover> p.s. http://www.tineye.com/search/4b81da2ebe2488a8bb95aa82ea96c765bb6d9748/
  333. # [06:30] <danbeam> anybody know of a good site other than flickr that allows you search for CC images?
  334. # [06:30] <danbeam> nickbaugh: heh
  335. # [06:30] <danbeam> nickbaugh: I have that on my cube still
  336. # [06:30] <snover> danbeam: there are a billion free stock image sites
  337. # [06:30] <tw2113> http://www.isfireworksbetterthanphotoshop.com/
  338. # [06:31] <danbeam> snover: where?
  339. # [06:31] <tw2113> creativecommons.org can search through many
  340. # [06:31] <snover> tw2113: it’s true, except for the shitty lethargic UI :(
  341. # [06:31] <danbeam> haha
  342. # [06:31] <snover> If Fireworks had a UI that didn’t run on a setTimeout loop I would be all up in that motherfucker
  343. # [06:32] <tw2113> danbeam you can search with google just for creative commons stuff
  344. # [06:32] <tw2113> you just need to go to advanced search
  345. # [06:32] <snover> Instead, it’s like, OH YOU SWITCHED TOOLS? HOLD ON LET ME…WAIT…OH YEP, LET ME LOAD MY NEW PANEL NOW
  346. # [06:32] <danbeam> snover: what does jQuery do (pre 1.6)?
  347. # [06:32] <snover> danbeam: do about what?
  348. # [06:32] <danbeam> snover: how does it animate things?
  349. # [06:32] <snover> I’m confused
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  351. # [06:32] <danbeam> snover: or you're saying the entire UI is on 1 interval
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  353. # [06:33] <snover> are you non sequituring?
  354. # [06:33] <danbeam> nvm, I gotcha
  355. # [06:33] <danbeam> snover: no, I'm not a squirter, thanks for asking, lol
  356. # [06:33] <paul_irish> http://www.girlfriendnyc.com/ check out the strikethrough
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  359. # [06:34] <tw2113> lol
  360. # [06:34] <snover> that site sure slides
  361. # [06:36] <snover> oh man you guys
  362. # [06:36] <snover> I had to sneeze
  363. # [06:36] <snover> and then it went away
  364. # [06:36] <snover> without me sneezing
  365. # [06:36] <snover> true story
  366. # [06:36] * nickbaugh spots a wild SNEEZE
  367. # [06:36] <danbeam> snover: you were criticizing something for running on an interval, and almost all JS animation uses a low precision timer of some sort, was confused what's different about creativecommons.org?
  368. # [06:36] <snover> danbeam: the subject in that sentence was Fireworks
  369. # [06:36] <snover> :)
  370. # [06:37] <danbeam> snover: so you're saying the way Fireworks ... works is shitty because it's all on an interval?
  371. # [06:37] <danbeam> (don't know, never used it)
  372. # [06:37] <danbeam> also, creative commons uses YUI, cool (it's sad that it's that rare, but whatevs)
  373. # [06:37] <snover> because its UI is lethargic
  374. # [06:38] <snover> I don’t know if it’s a timeout but I do know it’s written in JS from the ancient era
  375. # [06:38] <danbeam> oh sweet, I think I just found XSS hole too, let me see
  376. # [06:38] <snover> let’s not have two conversations at once, it is confusing me
  377. # [06:39] <danbeam> haha, ok, I'll stop
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  379. # [06:41] <danbeam> http://on.mtv.com/eVeMOy awesome way to link to my product is awesome, heh
  380. # [06:42] <nickbaugh> danbeam: haha
  381. # [06:42] <danbeam> nickbaugh: stay ... XSSy my friend
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  383. # [06:48] <nickbaugh> lol @ "The Other Guys"
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  389. # [07:00] <jai> hi.. i need one help? anybody is there?
  390. # [07:00] <danbeam> jai: http://stackoverflow.com
  391. # [07:01] * danbeam is slightly kidding...
  392. # [07:02] <jai> hi.. i want to add flash video using html5?how?
  393. # [07:02] <snover> ur doing it wrong.
  394. # [07:02] <danbeam> heh
  395. # [07:02] <jai> how will do
  396. # [07:02] <danbeam> jai: http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/html-css-techniques/quick-tip-html-5-video-with-a-fallback-to-flash/
  397. # [07:03] * danbeam agress with snover, though, lol
  398. # [07:03] <danbeam> agrees*
  399. # [07:03] <jai> using canvas element
  400. # [07:03] <paul_irish> TIL: json isn't valid javascript. http://www.json.org/ allows escaping slashes ('\/'), but ECMAScript doesn't (section 7.8.4 String Literals, http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-262.pdf).
  401. # [07:04] <danbeam> jai: oh gosh, you've done it now
  402. # [07:04] <jai> using canvas element i want to play video in browser..
  403. # [07:04] <nickbaugh> paul_irish: about to hatch the ~eggs
  404. # [07:04] <nickbaugh> paul_irish: got both plural and singular [dot]coms
  405. # [07:04] <snover> jai: thank you for your contribution.
  406. # [07:05] <jai> snover : i need sample code to create flace using canvas element
  407. # [07:05] <danbeam> paul_irish: look at abstract comparison operator and hide your weaponry (as you'll want to shoot/stab someone)
  408. # [07:06] <snover> you need a nonsense-ectomy.
  409. # [07:06] * danbeam lols pretty hard
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  411. # [07:06] <danbeam> paul_irish: Any character
  412. # [07:06] <danbeam> may appear in the form of an escape sequence.
  413. # [07:07] <snover> paul_irish: look at CharacterEscapeSequence definition :)
  414. # [07:07] <snover> I thiiiink?
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  416. # [07:08] <snover> SingleEscapeCharacter, which would be \, and NonEscapeChacater, which would be /
  417. # [07:08] <snover> I think.
  418. # [07:08] <snover> SPECS ARE HARD LET’S GO TO THE MALL FUCK
  419. # [07:08] <danbeam> snover: haha
  420. # [07:10] <danbeam> paul_irish: so you're saying the Spec defies itself? 15.12.1?
  421. # [07:10] <danbeam> "The JSON Grammar"
  422. # [07:12] <paul_irish> iunno im bored now
  423. # [07:12] <danbeam> I can't find "SourceCharacter" (which is referenced alot)
  424. # [07:13] <danbeam> nvm, SourceCharacter:: any Unicode code unit
  425. # [07:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: \ JSONEscapeSequence
  426. # [07:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: " / \ b f n r t
  427. # [07:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: from 15.12.1
  428. # [07:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: (omitted a couple rules, but that seems like it's totally valid to say \/)
  429. # [07:15] <danbeam> paul_irish: in JSON
  430. # [07:16] <danbeam> paul_irish: but I guess you said it's not valid in ECMAScript strings
  431. # [07:16] <danbeam> paul_irish: will check
  432. # [07:16] <snover> danbeam: Remember when I said, look at CharacterEscapeSequence? ;)
  433. # [07:16] <danbeam> paul_irish: it would seem real strange for them to contractdict ... themselves
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  435. # [07:17] <danbeam> paul_irish: oh, so, there's no / in there, I see
  436. # [07:17] <danbeam> paul_irish: yeah, you're right
  437. # [07:17] <danbeam> paul_irish: that's an error or something
  438. # [07:17] <snover> “The CV of CharacterEscapeSequence :: NonEscapeCharacter is the CV of the NonEscapeCharacter.”
  439. # [07:18] <danbeam> paul_irish: it works, though...
  440. # [07:19] <danbeam> NonEscapeCharacter
  441. # [07:19] <danbeam> (only thing worse that reading a spec is trying to explain reading it, lol)
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  443. # [07:21] <danbeam> paul_irish: so yeah, NonEscapeCharacter maps to any unicode value that's no an EscapeCharacter as valid behind a \
  444. # [07:21] <danbeam> not an**
  445. # [07:21] <danbeam> so if it's not \x \u or any of the SingleEscapeCharacter s it's still valid as well
  446. # [07:22] <danbeam> (nor \[0-9])
  447. # [07:26] <danbeam> paul_irish, snover also, Doug Crockford is a pretty l33t dude, I don't often see IETF docs with only one name on it - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4627 (but maybe I don't look at many)
  448. # [07:26] <danbeam> (or maybe he's just a loner or stubborn, haha, don't know...)
  449. # [07:26] <snover> danbeam: it’s an informational rfc
  450. # [07:26] <snover> not a standards track rfc
  451. # [07:27] <danbeam> snover: ah, so that's why it's not weird to have only 1 author?
  452. # [07:27] <snover> danbeam: it’s not something i have paid a lot of attention to but it’s unlikely that the IETF would have a standard authored by one person
  453. # [07:27] <snover> not much of a standard then :)
  454. # [07:28] <danbeam> snover: yeah, that's what I'm saying, lol -- can't even get somebody to agree with you on the standard / review you work?
  455. # [07:28] <danbeam> meh, JSON blew up anyways
  456. # [07:28] <danbeam> haha
  457. # [07:28] <nickbaugh> mongoooooo
  458. # [07:28] <danbeam> snover: have you dealt with standards track RFCs before?
  459. # [07:28] <danbeam> same @ paul_irish
  460. # [07:29] <snover> danbeam: I’ve been on the oauth ML
  461. # [07:29] <snover> that’s about it
  462. # [07:29] <danbeam> snover: cool
  463. # [07:29] <danbeam> snover: ML = what?
  464. # [07:29] <snover> mailing list…
  465. # [07:29] <danbeam> oh, I see
  466. # [07:30] <danbeam> (was thinking Markup Language... like HTML or SGML, but that doesn't make much sense in the context of OAuth)
  467. # [07:32] <danbeam> I'm on the CSS validator mailing list, but not sure how much shit Google Mail would mess up if I replied to a question I had a remote clue about (am a little to young to have been posting on many mailing lists when they were all the rage)
  468. # [07:33] <danbeam> snover: any particular client you use to respond to text/plain emails without fear of substantially messing them up? mutt or mailx?
  469. # [07:33] <snover> thunderbird
  470. # [07:33] <danbeam> oh yeah, somebody told me it still had mailing list features
  471. # [07:34] <snover> it’s just an email
  472. # [07:34] <snover> I think you are confusing mailing list with newsgroup.
  473. # [07:34] <danbeam> oh, you're right
  474. # [07:34] <danbeam> yeah
  475. # [07:34] <danbeam> damn
  476. # [07:37] <danbeam> what is the difference? protocl and storage method?
  477. # [07:37] <danbeam> protocol*
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  482. # [07:43] <danbeam> snover: assuming you've seen this before, but really cool --> http://www.google.com/googlegroups/archive_announce_20.html, loved Stallman's announcement
  483. # [07:44] * Joins: glcrazy (~quassel@79.119.95.7)
  484. # [07:44] <danbeam> his email was @MIT-MC.ARPA
  485. # [07:44] <danbeam> awesome
  486. # [07:47] <danbeam> (well, not his whole email, but you get my point...)
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  496. # [08:03] <tw2113> http://whatishtmlfive.com/
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  505. # [08:19] <jai> how to ?lay video using html5
  506. # [08:20] <digitalfiz> <video>
  507. # [08:20] <jai> digitalfiz: can i use canvas element to play video on html 5?
  508. # [08:24] <kyxzme> where i can find a doc about
  509. # [08:25] <kyxzme> .translation() and .transform()
  510. # [08:25] <kyxzme> _
  511. # [08:25] <tw2113> ?g dive into html5 video
  512. # [08:25] <bot-t> tw2113, Video - Dive Into HTML5 - http://diveintohtml5.org/video.html
  513. # [08:25] <danbeam> tw2113: @ jai
  514. # [08:25] <kyxzme> ?g dive into html5 transform
  515. # [08:25] <bot-t> kyxzme, Video - Dive Into HTML5 - http://diveintohtml5.org/video.html
  516. # [08:25] <kyxzme> ?g dive into html5 translate
  517. # [08:25] <bot-t> kyxzme, Translation From MS-Speak to English of Selected Portions of Dean ... - http://diveintomark.org/archives/2011/04/15/nativity-scene
  518. # [08:26] <danbeam> kyxzme: ?g search term
  519. # [08:26] <danbeam> you don't need to prefix with dive into html5
  520. # [08:26] <kyxzme> ?g canvas transform
  521. # [08:26] <bot-t> kyxzme, Transformations - MDC Doc Center - https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Canvas_tutorial/Transformations
  522. # [08:26] <kyxzme> thxu
  523. # [08:26] <danbeam> :D
  524. # [08:26] <tw2113> .translation() looks like jquery to me
  525. # [08:26] <danbeam> snover, paul_irish, tw2113 if all my slides' images are CC, do I need to attribute them to their respective flickr accounts?
  526. # [08:27] <paul_irish> yes
  527. # [08:27] <danbeam> paul_irish: ok
  528. # [08:27] <paul_irish> attribution required
  529. # [08:27] <danbeam> paul_irish: is just flickr.com/user good enough?
  530. # [08:27] <paul_irish> ya
  531. # [08:27] <danbeam> bitchin
  532. # [08:27] <danbeam> cuz I am lazy
  533. # [08:27] <tw2113> usually the minimum for CC is attribution
  534. # [08:27] <danbeam> and so tired
  535. # [08:27] <danbeam> of preparing for this conf
  536. # [08:27] <danbeam> I need moar energy like this guy - http://www.flickr.com/photos/programmerman/2315566040/sizes/o/in/photostream/
  537. # [08:27] <tw2113> i forget their attempt at public domain
  538. # [08:27] <tw2113> i think CC0
  539. # [08:28] <paul_irish> yeah cc0
  540. # [08:28] <paul_irish> its cool. i use it
  541. # [08:28] <danbeam> http://www.flickr.com/photos/programmerman/2315566040/sizes/l/in/photostream/ easier to see
  542. # [08:28] <paul_irish> it tries to fix what 'public domain' doesnt do well
  543. # [08:28] <tw2113> danbeam i think most slideshow people give all the photo attributions in the final slide
  544. # [08:28] <danbeam> tw2113: yeah, that's what I'm doing
  545. # [08:29] <danbeam> paul_irish, tw2113, snover - also too nerdy to put on a slide? https://gist.github.com/949236
  546. # [08:29] <tw2113> whatever gets it done
  547. # [08:30] <danbeam> tw2113: uh, ok, does that mean yes or no, lol?
  548. # [08:31] <danbeam> also, MFing Eagles dragging MFing goats - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7FFlFy8eM
  549. # [08:31] <danbeam> damn you for making me say MFing, paul_irish
  550. # [08:31] <danbeam> ?fpi
  551. # [08:31] <bot-t> fucking paul irish! http://i.imgur.com/gpspl.png
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  553. # [08:31] <jai> i want video like fash on webpage using html5?please help
  554. # [08:31] <danbeam> pay off in that vid at :45
  555. # [08:32] <tw2113> danbeam you're likely a bigger nerd than me
  556. # [08:32] <paul_irish> jai: this is what you want: http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody
  557. # [08:32] <danbeam> jai: the point of using HTML5 <video> is to not have to use Flash (as far as I can tell)
  558. # [08:33] <jai> canvas element is help for me?
  559. # [08:33] <tw2113> i can't speak too much tonight, i basically got called a shit programmer from some person in india
  560. # [08:33] <snover> tw2113: lol
  561. # [08:33] <danbeam> tw2113: that's a pretty harsh diss
  562. # [08:33] <danbeam> snover called me specious once, don't feel so bad, :P
  563. # [08:33] <tw2113> all because i don't know a huge amount mysql querying and php form handling
  564. # [08:34] <snover> tw2113: an indian told me once that I had a small penis or something like that
  565. # [08:34] <paul_irish> hey man some indians are fiercely talented.
  566. # [08:34] <snover> when I refused to play “do my work for me for free”
  567. # [08:34] <danbeam> http://bugs.jquery.com/ticket/7590 <-- inb4 specious
  568. # [08:34] <tw2113> i never claimed to be a programmer anyway, i claim frontend developer
  569. # [08:34] <paul_irish> heh
  570. # [08:34] <danbeam> oops
  571. # [08:34] <danbeam> totally wrong
  572. # [08:34] <danbeam> diff. jQuery team member
  573. # [08:35] <paul_irish> oh?
  574. # [08:35] <danbeam> oh shit, now i have to question everything - snover, you are involved with jQuery, right?
  575. # [08:35] <snover> I was
  576. # [08:35] <danbeam> oh, ok
  577. # [08:35] <snover> I didn’t call you specious
  578. # [08:35] * danbeam bedrock is slightly less shattered
  579. # [08:35] <snover> called the use case specious :P
  580. # [08:35] <danbeam> yeah, it was dmethvin, sorry
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  582. # [08:36] <danbeam> snover: oh shit
  583. # [08:36] <danbeam> snover: no, I was right, lol, my bad
  584. # [08:36] <danbeam> snover: yeah, it's all good
  585. # [08:36] <tw2113> i'm over it all, btw
  586. # [08:36] <danbeam> snover: I picked 2 very horrible getComputedStyle() examples for tests
  587. # [08:37] <danbeam> snover: both were insane browser bugs, so jQuery's Qunit tests were failing in a couple browsers -- was in hell for like 4 hours
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  589. # [08:37] * dgathright_ is now known as dgathright
  590. # [08:38] <danbeam> snover: why'd you stop being involed with jQuery? or should we go ... somewhere more private
  591. # [08:38] * danbeam looks at paul_irish sneakily...
  592. # [08:38] <paul_irish> >_>
  593. # [08:38] <danbeam> ^^
  594. # [08:38] <danbeam> :P
  595. # [08:38] <tw2113> <_<
  596. # [08:39] <danbeam> >>>(^o^)<<<
  597. # [08:39] * tw2113 lifts his shirt >>
  598. # [08:39] <snover> what the what
  599. # [08:39] <tw2113> madonna-bra :O
  600. # [08:39] <danbeam> snover: you said you *were* involved with jQuery
  601. # [08:39] <tw2113> <_> crazy eye
  602. # [08:40] <danbeam> snover: Y U NO CODE FOR FREE ANYMORE?
  603. # [08:40] <snover> I did what I set out to do
  604. # [08:40] <tw2113> snover codes for himself
  605. # [08:40] <tw2113> and puts it out for others to benefit from
  606. # [08:41] <danbeam> snover: well, thanks for your help <3 jQuery users
  607. # [08:41] <danbeam> snover: :D
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  609. # [08:43] <danbeam> snover: jQuery's definitely got one of the best code bases around, that's for sure, have been looking into a ton of libraries lately - some gross gross stuff underneath the covers
  610. # [08:43] <snover> I’m not sure I would agree with that :)
  611. # [08:43] <danbeam> snover: SWFObject, VOM
  612. # [08:43] <tw2113> snover thanks for making dynamic pages easier for us "shit programmers" :D
  613. # [08:43] <danbeam> snover: Prototype, VOM (some parts)
  614. # [08:43] <danbeam> Modernizr, er.. it's cool, ;)
  615. # [08:43] <snover> what is VOM?
  616. # [08:44] <danbeam> VOM[IT]
  617. # [08:44] <danbeam> YUI2/3 sometimes VOMIT, more WTF?
  618. # [08:44] <tw2113> modernizr E>
  619. # [08:44] <danbeam> (it's clean but sometimes wrong)
  620. # [08:44] <snover> most of my time now i spend with dojo
  621. # [08:44] <danbeam> with DM's fork? :P
  622. # [08:45] * danbeam trolls
  623. # [08:45] <snover> who?
  624. # [08:45] <danbeam> David Mark
  625. # [08:45] <danbeam> http://www.cinsoft.net/mylib.html
  626. # [08:45] <snover> david mark is an idiot
  627. # [08:45] <danbeam> if you don't know David Mark and Dojo's relationship it might be worth rummage
  628. # [08:46] <danbeam> OK, so you do know him
  629. # [08:46] <danbeam> heh
  630. # [08:46] <danbeam> he's not really an idiot, but he's definitely an asshole
  631. # [08:46] <danbeam> that's for sure
  632. # [08:46] <kyxzme> whos david mark_
  633. # [08:46] <danbeam> kyxzme: exactly, ;)
  634. # [08:46] <tw2113> i'm with kyxzme
  635. # [08:46] <snover> ok, asshole. :)
  636. # [08:46] <kyxzme> Sorry I am new here
  637. # [08:47] <snover> much more accurate.
  638. # [08:47] <kyxzme> Ive just arrived to the world
  639. # [08:47] <tw2113> who the fuck is douglas crawford?
  640. # [08:47] <tw2113> :D
  641. # [08:47] <danbeam> lolol
  642. # [08:47] <danbeam> I mean
  643. # [08:47] <danbeam> lawlawl
  644. # [08:47] <snover> That was the word I was thinking of, it just came out differently
  645. # [08:48] <snover> but you do have to be at least kind of an idiot to alienate yourself from an entire community of developers
  646. # [08:48] <danbeam> kyxzme: he's a crazy dude that things he's the god of all JS because he's never typed the string navigator.userAgent
  647. # [08:48] <danbeam> snover: agreed, he's definitely a social idiot
  648. # [08:48] <danbeam> snover: undeniably
  649. # [08:48] <kyxzme> danbeam: Ive never typed that too
  650. # [08:48] <danbeam> snover: it's too bad, too, he seems like a pretty good dev
  651. # [08:48] <snover> he creates puppet accounts to reply to himself with, too…
  652. # [08:49] <snover> on his google group
  653. # [08:49] <danbeam> snover: oh wow
  654. # [08:49] <danbeam> snover: I'm not surprised
  655. # [08:49] <kyxzme> So, please, build a statue for me. Before I kill you all with my superpowers
  656. # [08:49] <danbeam> snover: that's awesomely crazy
  657. # [08:49] <snover> anyway, that’s enough about that :)
  658. # [08:50] <kyxzme> snover.dispose():
  659. # [08:50] <danbeam> kyxzme: but you don't seem like the kind of dude that'd say this ... http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/msg/66b9c621c05cab74
  660. # [08:51] <danbeam> snover: DM aside, has Dojo ever looked at incorporating his fork's feature tests?
  661. # [08:52] <danbeam> snover: some of them actually to look useful...
  662. # [08:52] <paul_irish> ever since he threatened a lawsuit over his open source code
  663. # [08:52] <snover> Considering he threatened to sue Resig over some unit tests a while ago, anything he writes is poison
  664. # [08:52] <paul_irish> i'm pretty sure everyone has decided to avoid his shit like the plague
  665. # [08:52] <danbeam> haha, both said the same thing lol
  666. # [08:52] <danbeam> yeah
  667. # [08:52] <danbeam> likely
  668. # [08:52] <kyxzme> Hey man
  669. # [08:53] <kyxzme> how much you like to read bullshit?
  670. # [08:53] <paul_irish> hey man
  671. # [08:53] <tw2113> got it, avoid david mark
  672. # [08:53] <paul_irish> avoid.
  673. # [08:53] <kyxzme> danbeam: serious you would like to make me read ten pages of bullshits?
  674. # [08:53] <paul_irish> kyxzme: dont read it.
  675. # [08:53] <danbeam> kyxzme: lol, yeah
  676. # [08:53] <tw2113> he just linked you, he didn't force you to read it
  677. # [08:54] <danbeam> kyxzme: you get the point from the last line
  678. # [08:54] <danbeam> kyxzme: Pretty lousy name too. Sencha doesn't exactly roll off the tongue,
  679. # [08:54] <danbeam> does it?
  680. # [08:54] <tw2113> my ID is worse :P
  681. # [08:54] <kyxzme> Well I think the author can decide how to call his son
  682. # [08:55] <danbeam> kyxzme: I think DM can go f%$# himself
  683. # [08:55] <danbeam> kyxzme: TBQH
  684. # [08:55] <paul_irish> so
  685. # [08:55] <paul_irish> new topic.
  686. # [08:55] <kyxzme> danbeam: I think all DMs have problems
  687. # [08:55] <danbeam> but snover is right, we should get off this tpoic
  688. # [08:55] <danbeam> topic*
  689. # [08:55] <kyxzme> anyway
  690. # [08:55] <tw2113> so how about that WTFPL
  691. # [08:55] <kyxzme> I ve never used jQ frameworks for mobile
  692. # [08:56] <kyxzme> I am a ObjC developer
  693. # [08:56] <paul_irish> gross.
  694. # [08:56] * danbeam agrees
  695. # [08:56] <kyxzme> so in my hopinion he can fuck himself with his tongue while he is yelling "Senchaaaaa"
  696. # [08:56] * danbeam also makes his living off of a lang that was hacked together in 1.5 weeks by one of the nerdiest dudes evar
  697. # [08:57] <tw2113> someone define the phrase "new topic"
  698. # [08:57] <tw2113> :P
  699. # [08:57] <danbeam> jquery mobile or zepto?
  700. # [08:57] <paul_irish> troll.
  701. # [08:57] * danbeam begins new flame war?
  702. # [08:57] * tw2113 aims the flamethrower at danbeam
  703. # [08:58] <paul_irish> i'm very unsatified with the state of offline guidance/tutorials/libs
  704. # [08:58] <kyxzme> Why you use jQ mobile frameworks
  705. # [08:58] <tw2113> localstorage and whatnot?
  706. # [08:58] <danbeam> paul_irish: of .. which one
  707. # [08:58] <kyxzme> and not ObjC??
  708. # [08:58] <danbeam> kyxzme: but I don't like iShit
  709. # [08:58] <snover> wat
  710. # [08:58] <snover> kyxzme: was that a real question?
  711. # [08:59] <paul_irish> because i have a larger audience than the 10% of mobile users that are on iOS
  712. # [08:59] <paul_irish> if you want to limit yourself like that
  713. # [08:59] <snover> paul_irish: offline?
  714. # [08:59] <paul_irish> go wild
  715. # [08:59] <paul_irish> snover: yah offline, flaky connections, caching, etc
  716. # [08:59] <paul_irish> shit needs to be generalized and de-mystified
  717. # [09:00] <snover> so like, there’s no documentation about how to do it, or there is not documentation that can be used offline? :)
  718. # [09:00] <kyxzme> objc is cute
  719. # [09:00] <kyxzme> apple is a bitch
  720. # [09:00] <paul_irish> former
  721. # [09:00] <danbeam> paul_irish: I'm not really happy with <canvas> doc either, IMO, nor webgl
  722. # [09:00] <snover> kyxzme: yeah, nothing cuter than fake OOP that gets preprocessed into wretched C :\
  723. # [09:00] <danbeam> paul_irish: but it's prolly better...never looked at what you're talking about
  724. # [09:01] <paul_irish> well i worked on gradient docs today
  725. # [09:01] <paul_irish> so hopefully yOU LIKE THOSE
  726. # [09:01] <danbeam> paul_irish: wait, what's the troll about between zepto jQMobile?
  727. # [09:01] <snover> DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS DESIGNERS
  728. # [09:01] <danbeam> paul_irish: srs question
  729. # [09:01] <snover> DON’T SIT DOWN
  730. # [09:01] <danbeam> lolwut
  731. # [09:01] <paul_irish> zepto is a faux jquery
  732. # [09:01] <danbeam> paul_irish: it's got a "jQuery-like API" lololol
  733. # [09:01] <paul_irish> jq mobile is a mobile ui and app state framework
  734. # [09:01] <kyxzme> danbeam: <canvas> doc is well done nowhere, it sucks everywhere, i bought Pro HTML5 Programming and all I understood about <canvas> was nothing!
  735. # [09:02] <snover> There’s not much to say about canvas
  736. # [09:02] <danbeam> paul_irish: but you have to load jQuery and jQuery mobile ... on mobile
  737. # [09:02] <paul_irish> yup.
  738. # [09:02] <snover> though, there’s not much to say about offline stuff either…but possibly more than on canvas
  739. # [09:02] <danbeam> snover: there's more in graphics, that's why people don't want to explain it as much to web developers (is my feeling)
  740. # [09:02] <danbeam> paul_irish: that seem *real* heavy
  741. # [09:03] <snover> well, the canvas 2d api is pretty…spartan
  742. # [09:03] <snover> and then canvas 3d is webgl
  743. # [09:03] <snover> which is the opposite of spartan
  744. # [09:03] <danbeam> snover: yup, 3d would be a bit harder
  745. # [09:03] <tw2113> yay early 90s Fox tv
  746. # [09:03] <danbeam> snover: you mean I have to matrix math and 4D homongenous vectors?!
  747. # [09:03] <danbeam> snover: gar
  748. # [09:03] <danbeam> homogenous*'
  749. # [09:04] <danbeam> paul_irish: jQuery is not a light lib (IMO)
  750. # [09:04] <danbeam> paul_irish: on mobile + more seems rough
  751. # [09:04] <kyxzme> You know its possible to build a <video> timeline using <canvas>??
  752. # [09:04] <paul_irish> can't wait to launch onelessjpg
  753. # [09:05] <paul_irish> kyxzme: yeah definitely
  754. # [09:05] <danbeam> but this is coming from the dude that helps write a 290 KB lib
  755. # [09:05] <danbeam> lol
  756. # [09:05] <snover> I’m excited for dojo 1.7, personally
  757. # [09:05] <danbeam> paul_irish: what's onelessjpg?
  758. # [09:05] <snover> there’s some talk of splitting up the base lib even more
  759. # [09:05] <paul_irish> we're launching it at jsconf
  760. # [09:06] <paul_irish> you'llsee
  761. # [09:06] <tw2113> .g github onelessjpg
  762. # [09:06] <tw2113> ?g github onelessjpg
  763. # [09:06] <danbeam> snover: I personally would be OK with deferred loading of things you can't do til DOMReady anyways
  764. # [09:06] <bot-t> tw2113, No results found for 'github onelessjpg'.
  765. # [09:06] <tw2113> so many bots, so many ways to use commands
  766. # [09:06] <snover> danbeam: I’m not sure how you would defer loading of things that are needed *at* domready any more efficiently than already occurs
  767. # [09:06] <danbeam> snover: https://github.com/danbeam/lazyquery <-- I hacked something together partly a while ago
  768. # [09:07] <paul_irish> danbeam: basically people are way more quick to argue about js library size than they are to consider setting expires headers or compressing their images
  769. # [09:07] <kyxzme> You know if theres still an hope to see WebSQL reintegrated_
  770. # [09:07] <kyxzme> I really like that..
  771. # [09:07] <paul_irish> websql is gonna stay in webkit and opera for.. a while
  772. # [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: I do everything but smush.it
  773. # [09:08] <snover> kyxzme: it’s dead brotha
  774. # [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: and sprite (well, sometimes)
  775. # [09:08] <tw2113> danbeam here's the github page if you want to watch it https://github.com/ajpiano/onelessjpg
  776. # [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: and but thinkin about that lately
  777. # [09:08] <kyxzme> snover: I hope not.. :(
  778. # [09:08] <snover> paul_irish: it absolutely blows my mind the things people forget to do when optimising page loads
  779. # [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: <script>window.jQuery || document.write("<script src='js/jquery-1.5.2.min.js'>\x3C/script>")</script>
  780. # [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: srs
  781. # [09:08] <danbeam> paul_irish: ?
  782. # [09:09] <snover> kyxzme: http://dev.w3.org/html5/webdatabase/
  783. # [09:09] <paul_irish> ya srs
  784. # [09:09] <snover> kyxzme: big-ass warning
  785. # [09:09] <danbeam> paul_irish: it's amazing people still use document.write, :/
  786. # [09:09] <paul_irish> sorry i like to develop while i'm offline.
  787. # [09:09] <snover> weirdo
  788. # [09:09] <snover> who goes offline!?
  789. # [09:09] <danbeam> paul_irish: oh, I see, it's for offline use
  790. # [09:09] <paul_irish> yes
  791. # [09:09] <danbeam> snover: <3 DVCS
  792. # [09:10] <paul_irish> its not for "omg the google jsut went down"
  793. # [09:10] <snover> I break out in a cold sweat whenever my cable modem goes down
  794. # [09:10] <danbeam> paul_irish: haha
  795. # [09:10] <danbeam> snover: yeah, I'm on SSH to my homebox non-stop using Bitlbee -- if it goes down I'm fucked
  796. # [09:10] <tw2113> looks like session/local storage won out?
  797. # [09:10] <danbeam> snover, paul_irish one of the things I really like about YUI is the module system
  798. # [09:11] <tw2113> sadly, half of one of the chapters in bruce and remy's book got invalidated
  799. # [09:11] <snover> danbeam: have you actually perf tested this script vs loading jquery at the </body>?
  800. # [09:11] <danbeam> snover, paul_irish sadly it adds complexity if actually done at a user level, though, so probably not a candidate for jQUery, :(
  801. # [09:11] <paul_irish> tw2113: indexeddb supercedes websqldb
  802. # [09:11] <tw2113> ahh
  803. # [09:11] <snover> indexeddb is hot though
  804. # [09:11] <snover> so don’t be sad
  805. # [09:11] <danbeam> snover: uh, with what tool? YSlow? Pagespeed?
  806. # [09:12] <snover> danbeam: with a stopwatch
  807. # [09:12] <danbeam> snover: heh
  808. # [09:12] <danbeam> snover: it doesn't block the page
  809. # [09:12] <danbeam> snover: that's the point
  810. # [09:12] <snover> you’re adding another RTT
  811. # [09:12] <danbeam> snover: and 100ms for another HTTP conn
  812. # [09:12] <danbeam> snover: yup
  813. # [09:12] <tw2113> i still need to re-pick up my localstorage stuff from the other night, i'm new with actual js use
  814. # [09:12] * Quits: patcito (~123@190.42.235.145) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  815. # [09:12] <danbeam> snover: unless... you inline it =O
  816. # [09:12] <snover> if jquery is the last thing to load before your user scripts, it’s pointless…
  817. # [09:13] <danbeam> snover: if you hit a dry cache with Firebug and your browser crashes
  818. # [09:13] <danbeam> snover: it feels real bad
  819. # [09:13] <danbeam> snover: (happend to me many times before)
  820. # [09:13] <danbeam> happened*
  821. # [09:13] <snover> er?
  822. # [09:13] <danbeam> (though I know the reply -- not typical conditions)
  823. # [09:14] <danbeam> it's unfortunate that *tons* of people host their own version of jQuery though
  824. # [09:14] <snover> danbeam: I think you may be optimising for a situation that does not exist
  825. # [09:14] <danbeam> way bad for cacheability
  826. # [09:14] <snover> danbeam: there are so many different version of jquery in the wild that using a cdn actually makes your page load slower in many cases
  827. # [09:15] <danbeam> snover: why, exactly?
  828. # [09:15] <tw2113> night everyone
  829. # [09:15] <snover> because you end up having to do another dns lookup and new tcp handshake and window opening to a new server and blah blah blah
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  831. # [09:15] <snover> instead of no extra dns lookup and a new request on a keep-alive’d tcp connection
  832. # [09:15] <danbeam> snover: my thinking would be ... it's geographically closer and you have a much better chance of getting cached
  833. # [09:15] <danbeam> snover: meh, depends
  834. # [09:15] <snover> danbeam: it’s been studied, let me see if I can find a study.
  835. # [09:15] <danbeam> snover: on the TTL of Google and the ISP's caching etc. etc.
  836. # [09:16] <snover> no
  837. # [09:16] <danbeam> snover: $10 says your dig ajax.googlewhatever.com doesn't go to a root name server
  838. # [09:16] <danbeam> snover: (if you don't add the +recurse, lol)
  839. # [09:16] <danbeam> snover: or whatever it is
  840. # [09:16] <snover> danbeam: that doesn’t matter, the browser is still going to need to do a dns lookup and that adds latency
  841. # [09:16] <snover> and having to do a full tcp handshake adds latency
  842. # [09:16] <danbeam> snover: there's 3 tradeoffs here, seems like, maybe 4
  843. # [09:17] <danbeam> snover: first, extra HTTP conn from my way - and possibly DNS
  844. # [09:17] <danbeam> snover: both are delay
  845. # [09:17] <danbeam> snover: DNS = UDP or TCP, quick as possible and dumb, HTTP = slower and kinda expensive
  846. # [09:17] <kyxzme> Whats the killer spec of html5 for you_
  847. # [09:18] <danbeam> snover: but jQuery would delay overall rendering until the script has synchronously downloaded, parsed, compiled, and executed
  848. # [09:18] <kyxzme> I think the most interesting are websockets, webworkers, applicationcache~manifests, and webstorage
  849. # [09:18] <snover> danbeam: no it would not
  850. # [09:18] <danbeam> snover: whereas mine just stores all the $(function(){})s in a queue
  851. # [09:18] <paul_irish> good choices.
  852. # [09:18] <paul_irish> and filesystem
  853. # [09:18] <danbeam> so it's about perceived vs. actual
  854. # [09:18] <snover> danbeam: rendering is not blocked if you put the script at </body>
  855. # [09:18] <danbeam> snover: alot of folks don't do that
  856. # [09:19] <danbeam> snover: especially if they have other things in the page they're using jQuery for
  857. # [09:19] <snover> and you think that folks that don’t do that are going to want to use a separate loader script? :\
  858. # [09:19] <danbeam> snover: but WORSE is that nobody combines their jQ plugins
  859. # [09:19] <danbeam> snover: you make it transparent
  860. # [09:19] <danbeam> snover: to them
  861. # [09:19] <danbeam> snover: they never have to know
  862. # [09:19] <snover> again
  863. # [09:19] <danbeam> snover: PLUS, if you make up for the load time by loading jQ in 2 hunks
  864. # [09:19] <snover> please do an actual test
  865. # [09:20] <snover> using dynatrace or something
  866. # [09:20] <danbeam> snover: you might be able to get same actual time
  867. # [09:20] <snover> and a proxy to emulate real world conditions
  868. # [09:20] <danbeam> snover: dare you to, :P
  869. # [09:20] <snover> and then tell me how much faster your solution is
  870. # [09:20] <snover> I pretty much guarantee you it will be a waste
  871. # [09:20] <danbeam> snover: you don't even work for jQuery any more, :P
  872. # [09:20] <paul_irish> EVIDENCE IS FOR LOOZERS
  873. # [09:20] <snover> but I might be wrong
  874. # [09:20] <snover> and then everyone can be happy
  875. # [09:20] <danbeam> no, I'm just busy writing preso for JSConf
  876. # [09:20] <snover> but I don’t think I am wrong
  877. # [09:20] <paul_irish> danbeam: you're coming?
  878. # [09:20] <paul_irish> i keep forgetting
  879. # [09:21] <danbeam> paul_irish: srsly?
  880. # [09:21] <paul_irish> SRY
  881. # [09:21] <paul_irish> I FORGET EVERYTHING
  882. # [09:21] <danbeam> ?csb
  883. # [09:21] <bot-t> cool story, bro. http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt71/Pittsburghistan/xb9yt0jpg-1.gif
  884. # [09:21] <paul_irish> that didnt work
  885. # [09:21] <paul_irish> ?hero
  886. # [09:21] <bot-t> <linda_hoxman>: HERO HERO HERO HERO HERO HERO
  887. # [09:21] <danbeam> those are coming in handy lately
  888. # [09:21] <snover> and trying to tell people your thing makes their perf better when you have no actual proof except for a hunch kinda sucks
  889. # [09:21] <snover> especially if it turns out that it’s not true at all, then you just look bad
  890. # [09:21] <danbeam> snover: no, dude
  891. # [09:21] <snover> and I don’t want you to look bad
  892. # [09:21] <danbeam> snover: I don't think you're wrong that it'll be slower in actual time
  893. # [09:21] <danbeam> snover: but perceived
  894. # [09:21] <danbeam> snover: is different
  895. # [09:21] <snover> it will be slower in all cases
  896. # [09:22] <danbeam> snover: OK OK, I'll get numbers for you soon enough
  897. # [09:22] <snover> versus loading scripts at the bottom of the body
  898. # [09:22] <danbeam> snover: so can I make a dry request every time?
  899. # [09:22] <danbeam> snover: not primed
  900. # [09:22] <danbeam> snover: ;) ?
  901. # [09:22] <danbeam> snover: and see when the DOM is ready faster?
  902. # [09:22] <danbeam> snover: with my 1K or all of jQuery?
  903. # [09:22] <snover> you would want to test and average multiple runs both with a cold cache and with a warm cache
  904. # [09:22] <danbeam> :D
  905. # [09:22] <paul_irish> gnight bros
  906. # [09:22] <danbeam> paul_irish: late
  907. # [09:23] <danbeam> snover: ok
  908. # [09:23] <snover> http://zoompf.com/blog/2010/01/should-you-use-javascript-library-cdns
  909. # [09:23] <danbeam> snover: and a reminder, my way would force more folks to use the CDN, so we'll see
  910. # [09:24] <danbeam> snover: P.S. you know DNS is cached in browsers, OS, and ISP, right?
  911. # [09:24] <danbeam> snover: and is a dumb fast protocol that returns a packet, right?
  912. # [09:25] <snover> danbeam: you know that ajax.googleapis.com is a CDATA record *and* that the TTL is 300, right?
  913. # [09:25] <danbeam> snover: (assuming you do, just making sure, you've been smarter than me on every issue tonight...)
  914. # [09:25] <danbeam> snover: oh lawd
  915. # [09:25] <danbeam> snover: really?
  916. # [09:25] <snover> yes.
  917. # [09:25] <danbeam> aw shit
  918. # [09:25] <danbeam> that sucks
  919. # [09:25] <danbeam> 5 min + second look up?
  920. # [09:25] <danbeam> gar
  921. # [09:25] <danbeam> confidence waining
  922. # [09:26] <danbeam> waning*
  923. # [09:26] <kyxzme> why should i have to give my files to google?
  924. # [09:26] <danbeam> snover: despite this, I did hit a cached response
  925. # [09:26] <danbeam> snover: even though I'm the only dev at Yahoo! at 12:20 am
  926. # [09:26] <danbeam> snover: :D
  927. # [09:27] <kyxzme> danbeam: do you work for yahoo_
  928. # [09:27] <snover> There is another article I can’t find that compared the load speeds of top sites that use CDNs versus ones that do not use CDNs and there was no performance benefit found for CDNs
  929. # [09:27] <snover> of course this doesn’t compare the same site once using a CDN and once not
  930. # [09:27] <snover> so
  931. # [09:27] <snover> it’s hard to say that a CDN is worthless
  932. # [09:27] <danbeam> snover: also, awesomely, guess where that site is loading its JS?
  933. # [09:28] <snover> but there doesn’t seem to be a lot of conclusive evidence to suggest that it provides a significant benefit
  934. # [09:28] <danbeam> (http://zoompf.com/blog/2010/01/should-you-use-javascript-library-cdns)
  935. # [09:28] <snover> danbeam: zoompf has some issues :P
  936. # [09:28] <danbeam> snover: the *actual* perf is slower, the perceived perf and time til DOM Ready is faster
  937. # [09:28] <danbeam> though if you're only use jQuery effectively when the DOM is ready
  938. # [09:28] <snover> yes yes, I understand perceived performance
  939. # [09:28] <danbeam> that might not be that useful
  940. # [09:29] <kyxzme> danbeam: do you work for yahoo? ~2
  941. # [09:29] <danbeam> kyxzme: yup
  942. # [09:29] <danbeam> snover: am I allowed to inline my JS for lazyquery?
  943. # [09:29] <danbeam> :D
  944. # [09:29] <danbeam> snover: seems like a valid test
  945. # [09:29] <snover> probably not, because if it is supposed to be a drop-in replacement, people aren’t likely to inline it
  946. # [09:29] <danbeam> snover: I know it's less cacheable (in a sense)
  947. # [09:29] <kyxzme> what the hell!
  948. # [09:29] <kyxzme> I want to work for yahoo too!
  949. # [09:29] <danbeam> snover: we'll see
  950. # [09:29] <danbeam> kyxzme: glad someone has that sentiment
  951. # [09:30] <kyxzme> :{
  952. # [09:30] <snover> It’s also worth pointing out that many people that load scripts in the head of their page are intentionally blocking rendering
  953. # [09:30] <danbeam> kyxzme: some don't
  954. # [09:30] <snover> because their site doesn’t work right without the JS
  955. # [09:30] <danbeam> snover: I know
  956. # [09:30] <kyxzme> danbeam: yahoo looks big :{
  957. # [09:30] <snover> and if people start clicking around without it then their omg shiny ajax buttons don’t work
  958. # [09:30] <snover> OMG AJAX SHINY
  959. # [09:30] <snover> OMG
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  961. # [09:30] <danbeam> snover: so you load the part of jQuery that needs to be there before DOMReady (core, ajax)
  962. # [09:30] <danbeam> snover: and then start a req. for the second half behind the scenes
  963. # [09:31] <danbeam> snover: but we'll see, that might not be as helpful
  964. # [09:31] <snover> danbeam: hhahahaha. see, I like what you’re thinking
  965. # [09:31] <snover> but
  966. # [09:31] <snover> I know the innards of the lib
  967. # [09:31] <danbeam> snover: they're not isolated?
  968. # [09:31] <snover> probably 90% of the library depends on other modules of the library
  969. # [09:31] <danbeam> snover: :(
  970. # [09:31] <danbeam> snover: I know it a bit, too, but probably not as well as you
  971. # [09:32] <snover> that fact drives me crazy as well
  972. # [09:32] <snover> (mostly because I want to see custom modular builds)
  973. # [09:32] <danbeam> snover: prolly harder to test as well
  974. # [09:32] <danbeam> snover: yeah, that'd be cool
  975. # [09:32] <danbeam> snover: there's been alot of feature bloat
  976. # [09:32] <danbeam> snover: over the years
  977. # [09:32] <snover> but the fact of the matter is that I think the only things that don’t depend on something else are…effects and dimensions
  978. # [09:32] <danbeam> snover: DOM?
  979. # [09:33] <danbeam> snover: Sizzle?
  980. # [09:33] <danbeam> snover: http://api.jquery.com has gotten way too long, lol
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  982. # [09:33] <snover> well, sizzle doesn’t depend on anything else
  983. # [09:33] <snover> but it’s not “core and ajax” :)
  984. # [09:33] <snover> core depends on sizzle
  985. # [09:33] <danbeam> for what reason, though?
  986. # [09:33] <danbeam> feature tests in it or something?
  987. # [09:33] <snover> for selecting elements? :)
  988. # [09:34] <snover> cuz that’s what $ does? :)
  989. # [09:34] <snover> the dom manipulation stuff…
  990. # [09:34] <danbeam> but you can't do that
  991. # [09:34] <danbeam> until dom is ready
  992. # [09:34] <snover> I’ll have to double-check
  993. # [09:34] <danbeam> :|
  994. # [09:34] <danbeam> well, I guess you'd know...
  995. # [09:34] <danbeam> just iterators and AJAX seem to be the things you'd need synchronously at first
  996. # [09:35] <snover> with the way the lib is written right now
  997. # [09:35] <snover> let’s see
  998. # [09:35] <danbeam> snover: I don't see Sizzle in core
  999. # [09:36] <snover> danbeam: jQuery.find is sizzle
  1000. # [09:36] <danbeam> but is it possible to call that before DOM is ready?
  1001. # [09:37] <snover> maybe you can get lucky
  1002. # [09:37] <snover> I guess I am thinking more in terms of build dependencies
  1003. # [09:37] <danbeam> haha, you couldn't "get lucky", lol
  1004. # [09:37] <danbeam> you'd have to check to make sure it wouldn't
  1005. # [09:37] <snover> rather than in terms of “what functionality can’t work anyway without the dom being ready”
  1006. # [09:38] <danbeam> but I'm guessing you're just joking
  1007. # [09:39] <snover> In terms of inextricable components… ajax, deferred, data, core, event, sizzle, support
  1008. # [09:39] <snover> are all very much commingled
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  1010. # [09:40] <danbeam> snover: yeah, you're right, they are
  1011. # [09:40] <snover> and are probably well over half the library, but I can’t say for certain
  1012. # [09:40] <danbeam> where is jQuery.ready?
  1013. # [09:41] <danbeam> nvm
  1014. # [09:42] <danbeam> readyList.done( fn ); // doing something similar -- just waiting here, but the code's all there already
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  1018. # [09:43] <snover> oops, it’s late
  1019. # [09:43] <snover> time to sleep!
  1020. # [09:43] <danbeam> snover: word, nice talking with ya
  1021. # [09:43] <snover> gn danbeam :)
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  1025. # [10:02] <kyxzme> bye
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  1073. # [12:29] <Mafia> Hi, I have html5.mobi and looking to develop :( anyideas?
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  1093. # [13:13] <mikesusz> wow i got excited about using selectivizr for a project until i found out it gives you css3 selectors but not css2
  1094. # [13:14] <mikesusz> i just want adjacent sib/child selectors in ie. bleh
  1095. # [13:14] <acies> see how f.ex. jquery does it
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  1149. # [16:18] <b1lly> I'm having trouble using the <video> tag to play video on my android
  1150. # [16:19] <moo-_-> just balls
  1151. # [16:19] <moo-_-> oopps
  1152. # [16:20] <moo-_-> b1lly: it is probably the source material encoding causing the problem,
  1153. # [16:20] <moo-_-> b1lly: which devices you have tested?
  1154. # [16:20] <moo-_-> b1lly: does it work on any device?
  1155. # [16:20] <b1lly> uhm i only have an android, BUT
  1156. # [16:20] <b1lly> I got it to work on safari, mozilla and chrome
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  1158. # [16:21] <b1lly> http://dev.westechsolutions.com/structure/projects/development/websites/clients/beeharris/qr/
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  1161. # [16:24] <b1lly> any suggestion moo-_-?
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  1164. # [16:31] <moo-_-> b1lly: does it play video clip standalone if you open it from URL directly?
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  1176. # [17:15] <b1lly> moo-_-: by directly going to the video url int he phone? ya
  1177. # [17:15] <b1lly> it plays
  1178. # [17:17] <b1lly> i got it to work on the iphone now but it dont autoplay
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  1180. # [17:17] <b1lly> it works in mozilla chrome and safari, but still giving me trouble on my droid
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  1245. # [19:38] <b1lly> i'm having trouble with the video element working on my android; however it works in all browsers, and even iphone
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  1247. # [19:40] <tw2113> what file format?
  1248. # [19:40] <tw2113> and if you want, i can test as well, i have my droid with me
  1249. # [19:40] <snover> more pertinently, what profile level?
  1250. # [19:41] <tw2113> and did the video tag call vote for or against obama?
  1251. # [19:41] <tw2113> #importantquestions
  1252. # [19:41] <snover> anything above baseline @ level 3.1 is not likely to go down well
  1253. # [19:42] <b1lly> tw2113: it's a mp4 file format that I want to work on android
  1254. # [19:42] <b1lly> or at least thats what I read works with android
  1255. # [19:43] <tw2113> what browser?
  1256. # [19:44] <tw2113> stock?
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  1258. # [19:46] * Joins: mattag (~matt.agar@office-02.august.com.au)
  1259. # [19:48] <tw2113> http://imgfave.com/view/1312486
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  1261. # [19:49] <b1lly> tw2113: yes
  1262. # [19:49] <b1lly> http://dev.westechsolutions.com/structure/projects/development/websites/clients/beeharris/qr/
  1263. # [19:49] <b1lly> try it in your android
  1264. # [19:49] <snover> b1lly: what is the profile level of the encoded video?
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  1267. # [19:51] <b1lly> no idea? i was given the mp4, and i used the miro video converter to convert it to all the formats
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  1269. # [19:52] <snover> b1lly: MediaInfo will tell you.
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  1271. # [19:54] <b1lly> heh
  1272. # [19:55] <tw2113> firefox mobile picked up the ogv, and i'm assuming opera mobile is too
  1273. # [19:56] <tw2113> stock and dolphin browser aren't doing anything for displayig
  1274. # [19:56] <tw2113> ing*
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  1279. # [20:03] <kyxzme> hi brothas
  1280. # [20:04] <b1lly> tw2113: so what do you suggest
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  1282. # [20:05] <tw2113> researching what format the android browsers take and what profile levels are required
  1283. # [20:05] <b1lly> well'
  1284. # [20:05] <b1lly> it is set to h.264 ?
  1285. # [20:05] <b1lly> or w/e
  1286. # [20:05] <tw2113> sadly <video> is far from ubiquitous thanks to format wars
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  1288. # [20:05] <b1lly> everything i read said that mp4 is for droids
  1289. # [20:05] <tw2113> *shrug* i haven't tinkered with the tag that much yet
  1290. # [20:06] <b1lly> but it dont work in the browser
  1291. # [20:06] <b1lly> however if i goto the file directly it plays fine
  1292. # [20:06] <tw2113> so it does play the file directly, just not through <video> ?
  1293. # [20:06] <b1lly> ya
  1294. # [20:07] <tw2113> then it's a browser issue
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  1296. # [20:07] <kyxzme> Regarding <video>
  1297. # [20:07] <kyxzme> I am the only one thinking WebM sucks?
  1298. # [20:07] <tw2113> i don't know if the stock browser with android supports <video> yet
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  1300. # [20:07] <b1lly> is there a way to detect android and just url redirect to the file directly
  1301. # [20:07] <b1lly> lol
  1302. # [20:08] <b1lly> yeah nm i can do that
  1303. # [20:08] <tw2113> ua sniffing
  1304. # [20:08] <b1lly> but that doesnt solve my problem becuz i want the viewer to be able to clik a link to the website itself
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  1306. # [20:08] <tw2113> they still could, it just wouldn't play above
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  1308. # [20:10] <tw2113> welcome to the edge :)
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  1310. # [20:12] <b1lly> yeah :-/
  1311. # [20:14] <b1lly> theres got a be a way >_<
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  1344. # [21:58] <tw2113> nimbupani i have a question for ya
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  1346. # [21:58] <nimbupani> ask tw2113
  1347. # [21:59] <tw2113> for that article in .Net Magazine, did you approach them and propose your idea for the article? or did they come to you and say "would you like to write about something?"
  1348. # [22:00] <paul_irish> nimbupani gets approached all the time, unsurprisingly
  1349. # [22:01] <paul_irish> but srsly
  1350. # [22:01] <paul_irish> they approached her
  1351. # [22:01] <tw2113> just curious because it'd be fun to try and come up with something that they'd find worthy to publish, but wasn't sure how they handled the topic
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  1353. # [22:01] <paul_irish> but i imagine one could talk to them
  1354. # [22:01] <paul_irish> me and divya have contact info
  1355. # [22:01] <tw2113> not that i have a good topic idea at the moment
  1356. # [22:01] <paul_irish> well
  1357. # [22:01] <paul_irish> 15 things you had no idea you could do with css3
  1358. # [22:02] <paul_irish> Letting go of jQuery for HTML5 Developers
  1359. # [22:02] <tw2113> i'm probably putting the carriage in front of the horse at the moment :D, but i have time available to brainstorm, so who knows
  1360. # [22:02] <paul_irish> The 6 month summary of HTML5 developments that you need to know NOW
  1361. # [22:02] <nimbupani> tw2113: u should just publish it on ur blog
  1362. # [22:02] <nimbupani> and link it here
  1363. # [22:02] <paul_irish> also that.
  1364. # [22:03] <paul_irish> also my ideas were great ^
  1365. # [22:03] <paul_irish> #justsayin
  1366. # [22:03] <nimbupani> have at least 10 or so posts before u approach anyone with articles.
  1367. # [22:03] <nimbupani> your ideas are always great paul_irish
  1368. # [22:03] <tw2113> does it help that Dan Oliver follows me on twtter? :D
  1369. # [22:04] <tw2113> i'll see what i can come up with, and perhaps get to writing some #coolshit
  1370. # [22:07] <tw2113> i already wish i had paulrouget's brain
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  1396. # [22:50] <danbeam> paul_irish: http://paulirish.com/2010/high-res-browser-icons/ <-- can you even use these in your own talk?
  1397. # [22:50] <danbeam> talks**
  1398. # [22:51] <danbeam> "Yeah.. since I only collected these I can't throw a license on it. So you're on your own! :)"
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  1419. # [23:14] * danbeam takes that as a maybe, :D
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  1438. # [23:50] <benv> so, quick poll
  1439. # [23:50] <benv> what qualifies as third-party js to you guys?
  1440. # [23:51] <benv> i.e. do you consider jquery a third-party lib? or do you think specifically of the situation where you're injecting code coming from a third-party server?
  1441. # [23:53] <paul_irish> while i may instantiate it from within my code
  1442. # [23:53] <paul_irish> besides that i dont rely on it
  1443. # [23:53] <paul_irish> but yeah its coming from.. a widget or ad house
  1444. # [23:55] <benv> yeah, that's generally my feeling too, but i think the opinion is mixed
  1445. # [23:57] <benv> my feeling is the "strict" definition is anything you didn't write, i.e. libs
  1446. # [23:58] <benv> but that's not what people first think of
  1447. # [23:59] <benv> i'm of the mind to say that anywhere you do <script src="..."> and it's pointing to a server you don't control, that's third-party js
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  1449. # Session Close: Sun May 01 00:00:00 2011

The end :)