/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-05-10 / end

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# Session Start: Tue May 10 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:28] <grantg> tw2113: are you on windows?
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# [00:33] <grantg> paul_irish: http://www.grantgalitz.org/sound_test should work in firefox 4 on windows xp now. :)
# [00:33] <grantg> the audio was finally fixed
# [00:33] <grantg> by a nasty workaround
# [00:34] <grantg> due to the way firefox does its audio logic
# [00:35] <grantg> since firefox is picky and fails on its audio logic when lot when not done with this ultra weird 2x prebuffer routine.
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# [00:38] <tw2113> no
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# [01:49] <_uf0> filters make IE unclickable on a button tag
# [01:49] <_uf0> such as filter: progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.Gradient(startColorStr='#00aeef', EndColorStr='#00a2df');
# [01:49] <_uf0> anyone come across this issue?
# [01:49] <snover> _uf0: there are many workarounds.
# [01:49] <_uf0> i tried the usual zoom: 1
# [01:49] <snover> _uf0: you should probably just use CSS3 PIE.
# [01:49] <_uf0> position: relative and nothing
# [01:50] <_uf0> css3 pie is out.. not using that
# [01:50] * Rob- is now known as robhawkes
# [01:50] <_uf0> what else is there
# [01:50] <snover> in order for filters to work at all, you need to have layout already, so of course adding layout is not going to work
# [01:50] <snover> what reason do you have for not using css3 pie?
# [01:50] <_uf0> htc isn't added in apache
# [01:51] <_uf0> and I'm unable to touch that.
# [01:51] <tw2113> i hate clients that insist on making it stupidly "simple" for non tech people to print a pdf
# [01:52] <_uf0> tw2113: :)
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# [01:53] <_uf0> snover: anything else?
# [01:53] <_uf0> if I can't find a solution, I might just do a background solid color fall back
# [01:53] <_uf0> and end it
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# [01:54] <tw2113> cause you know, everyone wants to print off a 42 page annual report
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# [01:54] <_uf0> lol
# [01:54] <snover> _uf0: the css3pie site specifically provides two workarounds for that
# [01:54] <tw2113> especially old folks
# [01:55] <_uf0> snover: word? let me check
# [01:55] <_uf0> tw2113: those clients are great ;)
# [01:56] <snover> tw2113: I don’t understand!
# [01:56] <tw2113> which part?
# [01:57] <snover> why do you hate clients that want to make things simple?
# [01:57] <tw2113> have you tried getting a pdf to print easily from the browser?
# [01:58] <tw2113> without downloading locally and opening in Adobe Reader
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# [02:02] <snover> tw2113: do you want a bad suggestion? :)
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# [02:04] <snover> tw2113: SAY YES ALREADY
# [02:04] <tw2113> tattoo it on their foreheads?
# [02:05] <snover> Convert the PDF to SWF and then tell Flash to print itself
# [02:05] <snover> :)
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# [02:06] <ericam_> now that's what I call an HTML5 recommendation
# [02:06] <snover> i know right!?
# [02:06] <ericam_> classy
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# [02:07] * tw2113 puts snover on ignore
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# [02:08] <tw2113> bbl anyway, i need to boot into windblows
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# [03:18] <grantg> digitalfiz: You're in tampa?
# [03:19] <digitalfiz> close
# [03:19] <digitalfiz> im in lakeland
# [03:19] <grantg> floridian high five!
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# [03:21] <digitalfiz> :D
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# [13:23] <jetienne> is rem on irc ?
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# [13:24] <jetienne> got serious bugs on https://github.com/remy/inliner
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# [13:25] <jetienne> inliner https://gist.github.com/raw/964292/d104c9980627428eb138b5eafcaea85fd792ddcc/gistfile1.txt <- this produce nothing
# [13:25] <jetienne> i mean doesnt output anychar... no compressed page, nothing
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# [17:05] <Michael> Howdy
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# [17:27] <shichuan> Michael: hi
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# [17:37] <JonathanNeal> Should message boards use tables?
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# [17:38] <nimbupani> shichuan: whats option 1 and option 2?
# [17:40] <shichuan> option 2 is in htaccess
# [17:40] <shichuan> where they force to remove the slash
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# [17:41] <shichuan> # Option 2:
# [17:41] <nimbupani> ohh
# [17:41] <nimbupani> k
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# [17:42] <nimbupani> shichuan: we do want to keep rewrite www.domain -> domain.com
# [17:42] <nimbupani> at least I know I want to.
# [17:42] <nimbupani> the only thing to decide on is the relative url thing
# [17:43] <nimbupani> the DirectorySlashOn
# [17:43] <nimbupani> Option 2 can remain there as it is still commented out, but it might need an pdate depending on what we decide with the Slash
# [17:44] <nimbupani> shichuan: SORRY
# [17:44] <nimbupani> there are like Option 1 and Option 2 for several things
# [17:44] <nimbupani> GAWD
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# [17:44] <nimbupani> you mean this I suppose shichuan https://github.com/paulirish/html5-boilerplate/blob/3180b3f3dd9b10e486cd35fa74e7b3753829455c/.htaccess#L332
# [17:44] <shichuan> lol
# [17:44] <shichuan> yea, sorry, i was lost
# [17:45] <shichuan> some mis com
# [17:45] <nimbupani> haha yeah sorry too.
# [17:46] <shichuan> :)
# [17:46] <nimbupani> soo DirectorySlashOn would be enough as you say
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# [17:46] <shichuan> so option 2 can remove?
# [17:46] <nimbupani> i think we need to update the comment on top to say they would have to uncomment if that redirect should not happen.
# [17:46] <nimbupani> its slightly different from the ReWrite that exists right now.
# [17:47] <shichuan> actually it's on by default
# [17:47] <nimbupani> then why are we rewriting >_>
# [17:48] <shichuan> hmmm, yea
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# [17:48] <shichuan> yea, seems it's on by default, and it's generally warned not to off it
# [17:49] <shichuan> so we just remove the whole thing?
# [17:49] <nimbupani> no there is more to it.
# [17:49] <shichuan> like what?
# [17:49] <nimbupani> http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2010/04/to-slash-or-not-to-slash.html
# [17:49] <nimbupani> we need a 301 for google.
# [17:50] <nimbupani> search engine juice.
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# [17:53] <shichuan> but if the default is On, means no slash will be redirect to slash url, we are under the first bullet point right?
# [17:53] <shichuan> and the first bullet point says as long as it redirects from one to another, it's fine right?
# [17:53] <shichuan> regardless of what returns
# [17:53] <nimbupani> true when would there be duplicate content?
# [17:54] <shichuan> i think maybe on none apache servers? or very old relic apache server?
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# [17:57] <nimbupani> i am not sure :| i wish some people who have done this on huge ass sites can chime in
# [17:57] <shichuan> let me try on my shared server
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# [18:04] <shichuan> nimbupani: on all my shard hosting accounts, old and new, seems it's working by default
# [18:04] <shichuan> but let's leave it open for a while
# [18:04] <shichuan> n case other ppl have other concerns
# [18:04] <nimbupani> shichuan: can you close the related other issues and open a new one
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# [18:04] <nimbupani> with what we have so far?
# [18:05] <nimbupani> I wanna tweet it and see if someone would comment .
# [18:05] <shichuan> i mean if i remove everything, it still redirect to slash url
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# [18:05] <shichuan> so the option 1 is a default with/without our code or any code
# [18:05] <shichuan> and option 2 is not recommanded
# [18:06] <nimbupani> shichuan: it may not be the case if people have other rewrites
# [18:06] <nimbupani> i want to know when duplicate content occurs and how often does it happen for google to recommend a 301 rewrite.
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# [18:07] <nimbupani> everyone in SEO World is talking like using 301 is the holy grail
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# [18:07] <nimbupani> i want to hear from them to see why they would think so and if it has any merit
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# [18:07] <shichuan> yea, sure
# [18:07] <shichuan> i will test a bit more also
# [18:08] <nimbupani> kay awesome.
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# [18:10] <shichuan> ok, use my blog as an example, let you mentioned, for instance, there are wordpress rewrite rules also
# [18:10] <shichuan> *like
# [18:10] <nimbupani> yeah
# [18:10] <shichuan> with our code in htaccess
# [18:11] <shichuan> it doesn't redirect my http://www.blog.highub.com/category/mobile-2 to slash url
# [18:11] <nimbupani> ha
# [18:11] <shichuan> but for a physical folder, it does http://www.blog.highub.com/wp-content/
# [18:11] <shichuan> but so does without any rule
# [18:12] <shichuan> so, means so far i didnt see a difference yet
# [18:12] <nimbupani> shichuan: then http://www.blog.highub.com/category/mobile-2/
# [18:12] <nimbupani> is a separate url :/
# [18:13] <nimbupani> from http://www.blog.highub.com/category/mobile-2
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# [18:13] <nimbupani> the idea is to redirect the latest url to http://www.blog.highub.com/category/mobile-2/ afaik
# [18:13] <nimbupani> so there is no duplicate content
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# [18:15] <shichuan> yea, but that's an issue of wordpress rewrite rule. which means if it's a virtual url, it doesnt redirect with/without the slash rules we have
# [18:15] <shichuan> if it's an actual folder url, it redirects with/without the slash rules we have
# [18:16] <nimbupani> yes our purpose in life w.r.t .htaccess is to make every url exist once once. either with or without / afaik
# [18:16] <nimbupani> could you modify wp rules to match what we have?
# [18:17] <nimbupani> and test?
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# [18:18] <shichuan> sorry, maybe i didn't explain clearly
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# [18:37] <Jon47> do search engines regard those two URLs as different?
# [18:40] <nimbupani> yeah.
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# [19:14] <Jon47> nimbupani: you're right http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2010/04/to-slash-or-not-to-slash.html
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# [19:20] <danbeam> Jon47: Rule #6 made me lol
# [19:20] <danbeam> Jon47: Step #6**
# [19:21] <danbeam> Jon47: They were just missing the "???"
# [19:21] <Jon47> heh
# [19:21] <Jon47> yeah should be a step before that
# [19:21] <danbeam> yup
# [19:21] <danbeam> lol, intertubes jokes
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# [19:23] <grantg> paul_irish: I'm wondering if http://www.vupen.com/demos/VUPEN_Pwning_Chrome.php used the WAV PCM stack overflow
# [19:23] <grantg> then it really is a 3rd party lib fault
# [19:24] <grantg> let's not even begin on the security problems of NaCl though. ;)
# [19:26] <grantg> there's definitely a delay there
# [19:26] <grantg> the wav pcm exploit requires such
# [19:26] <grantg> so it could be the same
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# [19:41] <jetienne> "Minifying http://www.youtube.com/ could save 11.4KiB (13% reduction)" from google page speed online. I love the irony :) http://j.mp/jq8Om9
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# [19:44] <danbeam> jetienne: same with YSlow on http://yahoo.com
# [19:45] <danbeam> jetienne: 1 F, 1 E, 3 Cs, 2 Bs
# [19:45] <jetienne> danbeam: hehe
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# [19:54] <danbeam> does anybody in this room plan on using Music Beta by Google?
# [19:55] <vier> i would like to, how do we sign up?
# [19:55] <danbeam> ?g music beta by google
# [19:55] <danbeam> fuck
# [19:55] <danbeam> no bots
# [19:55] <danbeam> google search it
# [19:55] <vier> oooh cool
# [19:56] <danbeam> iono, I have too much music to upload, so I probably won't
# [19:57] <jetienne> http://www.betarecords.com/ this is the first hit for "music beta" :) im sure those people loves google right now :)
# [19:57] <Michael> USE DROPBOX http://db.tt/uhvKTSQ
# [19:57] <Michael> It saves small children and innocent animals
# [19:57] <vier> why cant i fastforward google io's live stream?
# [19:57] <danbeam> Michael: the storage method has nothing to do with it, it's physical constraints on my upload speed
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# [19:58] <danbeam> Michael: I'm not gonna wait 5 years to able to upload all of my music
# [19:58] <Michael> Are you on dialup?
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# [19:58] <danbeam> Michael: to be able to listen to my music after I've uploaded it**
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# [19:58] <jetienne> danbeam: what is the speed of your upload link ?
# [19:58] <vier> hehe, suck everyone who doesnt have uni internet :D
# [19:58] <danbeam> jetienne: good, ;)
# [19:59] <danbeam> jetienne: at work it's like > DS3
# [19:59] <danbeam> jetienne: but I don't wanna bring all my music to work, :P
# [19:59] <danbeam> jetienne: at home my up is 2mpbs
# [19:59] <jetienne> danbeam: :)
# [19:59] <danbeam> jetienne: 2mbps**
# [19:59] <danbeam> jetienne: 240 KB/s
# [19:59] <danbeam> jetienne: but I QoS it
# [20:00] <danbeam> jetienne: so only 100 KB/s left
# [20:00] <danbeam> jetienne: and that's if I don't wanna use the rest of it on like anything and am uploading not stop forever
# [20:01] <danbeam> jetienne: Google should do a local md5 on my files and not make me retransmit if somebody else has already uploaded their copy, :P
# [20:01] <Michael> How is 2mbps upload slow?
# [20:01] <danbeam> Michael: it's not, but I have alot of music
# [20:01] <danbeam> Michael: ALOT alot, ;)
# [20:01] <vier> danbeam: sorry i swear you just said md5
# [20:01] <Michael> IS IT LEGAL?
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# [20:01] <Michael> jk
# [20:01] <danbeam> vier: I did
# [20:01] <jetienne> danbeam: 100*86400/1024/1024 = 8.3... if im not wrong you can upload 8.3 gbyte/day
# [20:01] <vier> danbeam: i am dissappoint
# [20:01] <Michael> danbeam, How do you manage to listen to all of it?
# [20:01] <danbeam> Michael: yes, it's totally legal to have a 2mbps internet, ;)
# [20:02] <vier> danbeam: but i agree, hash the local content first would be good
# [20:03] <danbeam> Michael: very patiently
# [20:03] <danbeam> Michael: ;)
# [20:03] <Michael> Sounds like you could get rid of a lot of it
# [20:03] <Michael> Remember mirc witht he dcc xserv scripts?
# [20:03] <danbeam> Michael: Sounds like I could get rid of a lot of you, :P
# [20:03] <Michael> danbeam, That... doesn't make sense
# [20:04] <danbeam> /ignore Michael ? jk <3
# [20:04] <Michael> And was quite awkwardly weird
# [20:04] <vier> who has an android phone?
# [20:04] * danbeam does
# [20:04] <danbeam> Michael: a majority of my music is backups for friends
# [20:04] <Michael> I do
# [20:04] <vier> danbeam: what kind? nexus?
# [20:05] <danbeam> vier: Droid
# [20:05] <Michael> danbeam, I don't want more details. I'm with FBI/InfraGard.
# [20:05] <danbeam> vier: from Google I/O last year, ;)
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# [20:05] <danbeam> Michael: oh lawd v&
# [20:05] <vier> danbeam: ahh :) well im watching the live stream atm. anyway, how do you find it?
# [20:05] <Michael> I was just joking around out of boredom but you turned out to be a weird dude.
# [20:05] <vier> danbeam: have you also used iOS? give a comparison?
# [20:06] <danbeam> vier: yes, I don't like iOS generally (nor most Mac stuff)
# [20:06] <danbeam> vier: but maybe I haven't given it enough of a chance
# [20:06] <shichuan> at least iOS has good battery life
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# [20:06] <vier> danbeam: favourite/best android features?
# [20:06] <Michael> my droid will last all work day usually
# [20:06] <danbeam> vier: Google services integration
# [20:06] <shichuan> android phone can't last for more than 8 hours
# [20:06] <vier> shichuan: yeh, its a downside of android, poor battery life
# [20:06] <danbeam> Michael: psh, mine lasts a week
# [20:07] <shichuan> ios can last a day
# [20:07] <Michael> shichuan, depends on the usage
# [20:07] <danbeam> maybe 3-4 days
# [20:07] <Michael> danbeam, Sure it does
# [20:07] <danbeam> depends on how you use it
# [20:07] <shichuan> Michael: i spent a whole day to uninstall all the live stream and update
# [20:07] <danbeam> turn of all server updates, turn off GPS, don't use or look for Wifi
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# [20:07] <danbeam> (unless you're actually using those features)
# [20:07] <shichuan> Michael: and it finally can last till i got home
# [20:07] <danbeam> don't sync accounts
# [20:07] <danbeam> don't stay on twitter all the time, :P
# [20:07] <Michael> shichuan, Advanced Taskiller works well for me
# [20:07] <vier> lol, sounds like you cut off a bit of functionality there
# [20:08] <danbeam> and it'll last you a long time
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# [20:08] <danbeam> Michael: yeah, that app is good too
# [20:08] <Michael> danbeam, I could just turn it off too
# [20:08] <shichuan> i already cut down a lot usage
# [20:08] <Michael> but what's the fun in that?
# [20:08] <shichuan> i dont even dare to listen to mp3 when outside
# [20:08] <danbeam> Michael: you can still sync at will
# [20:08] <Michael> I sync from exchange and gmail and it still lasts me from like 8am to 5pm
# [20:08] <shichuan> i am waiting for htc update
# [20:08] <danbeam> vier: I can use Google Voice, Mail, and Maps from my phone
# [20:08] <danbeam> vier: and that's HUGE
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# [20:09] <Michael> Also T-Mobile has come out with updates to save battery and they seem to work
# [20:09] <shichuan> heard new android has battery improvement
# [20:09] <vier> danbeam: cool, with ios, i cant tell how good they are, but yeh, integration is a huge plus on my checklist
# [20:09] <shichuan> but the htc update takes years
# [20:09] <Michael> This is the myTouch 4G - whatever model that is
# [20:09] <danbeam> vier: it's a downside of iPhone that you can't make FUCKING CALLS
# [20:09] <danbeam> vier: (depending mainly on service provider, obviously, but you were locked to 1 for years until now)
# [20:09] <vier> danbeam: lol? it was a small problem a while ago, fixed now
# [20:10] <danbeam> vier: tell that to everybody sitting around me that have no fucking service whatsoever
# [20:10] <danbeam> vier: (not the deathgrip's fault)
# [20:10] <vier> haha, ok
# [20:10] <shichuan> iphone is decent, i mean they are the first smartphone
# [20:10] <danbeam> vier: so definitely don't get AT&T
# [20:10] <danbeam> shichuan: they're not the first smart phone
# [20:10] <shichuan> i dont see innovation in android
# [20:11] <vier> danbeam: definitely wont - im in Australia with no AT&T :P
# [20:11] <danbeam> shichuan: they're the first *shiny* smart phone
# [20:11] <shichuan> what is something android done that changed our life?
# [20:11] <shichuan> android is a copycat
# [20:11] <danbeam> shichuan: made me buy a smart phone
# [20:11] <vier> shichuan: where do you see innovation in the iphone/
# [20:11] <danbeam> shichuan: because fuck iPhone
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# [20:11] <danbeam> shichuan: inb4 "shiny, glorious UI, long battery life"
# [20:12] <shichuan> iphone made everything an app
# [20:12] <shichuan> tat's someting new
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# [20:12] <BrianBlakely> Folders are nice :D
# [20:12] <Michael> I'll get an iPhone when they give them to us for free.
# [20:12] <danbeam> shichuan: how bout ... an operating system? they have these things called apps that have been around a little bit longer...
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# [20:12] <vier> shichuan: that is not new, thats how all mobile phones have worked
# [20:12] <skyler_brungardt> Flame War! Go!
# [20:12] <vier> before smartphones
# [20:13] <Michael> paul_irish, We just lost one of our best web devs to you guys :)
# [20:13] <skyler_brungardt> Fight fight fight!
# [20:13] <skyler_brungardt> To the death!
# [20:13] <vier> yeh, soz probs my fault skyler_brungardt :P i asked
# [20:13] <Michael> He started at Youtube last Monday
# [20:13] <Michael> Well all our web devs are awesome, but he was exceptional to that even
# [20:14] <skyler_brungardt> Duel! With swords! No--smartphones! Smartphone duel to the DEATH!
# [20:14] <danbeam> skyler_brungardt: obviously it's based on opinion, but my opinion's right ™
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# [20:14] <shichuan> i dont work for iphone, i have both, bottom line is iphone is just easier to use
# [20:14] <vier> my iphone has a broken LCD - so its usefull as a paperweight atm
# [20:14] <shichuan> i dont have to learn to use iphone
# [20:15] <skyler_brungardt> Round 1! Ding ding!
# [20:15] <danbeam> shichuan: when the world doesn't have to learn they all stay dumb, ;)
# [20:15] <vier> shichuan: okay, have you used android?
# [20:15] <shichuan> i used android
# [20:15] <shichuan> i am still using android
# [20:15] <shichuan> i am not working for iphone, so i wont defend iphone
# [20:15] * tw2113 bets paul_irish secretly rocks the iphone
# [20:15] <shichuan> if someone dislike it, i am fine
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# [20:16] <vier> so you know that android you just click a button to open an app..? how much learning is involved...
# [20:16] <vier> not that i care, as a dev
# [20:16] <shichuan> hard to search contact
# [20:16] <danbeam> vier: the whole UI of Android requires learning
# [20:17] <danbeam> vier: there are 4 buttons -- it's rough
# [20:17] <Michael> <3 genius button
# [20:17] <vier> but, surely is is just like learning the iOS from scratch
# [20:18] <vier> Michael: your commenting on iphone's 1 button? i actually quite dislike that
# [20:18] <Michael> No the 4th button on T-Mobile's droid phones
# [20:18] <danbeam> http://www.theonion.com/video/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-with-no,14299/ <-- this is pretty easy to use as well
# [20:19] <Michael> vier, It links to my headset. I just push my headset and say "Call wifey" or "Send email to Blah Hey man! Running late. Be there soon"
# [20:19] <shichuan> iphone is like love at first sight, the moment you holding it, it feels like you have met it for years
# [20:19] <Michael> very convenient
# [20:19] <shichuan> can android give you the same feeling? no
# [20:19] <danbeam> shichuan: did for me
# [20:19] <Michael> I don't generally get emotional over gadgets
# [20:19] <danbeam> shichuan: but I'm a developer and a linux nerd
# [20:19] <vier> Michael: sounds cool
# [20:19] <Michael> it is
# [20:19] <danbeam> shichuan: and want my phone to be ... a phone
# [20:19] <Michael> And their swype keyboard is a huge reason I won't go to the iphone
# [20:20] <vier> shichuan: i probably could
# [20:20] <Michael> http://gizmodo.com/5571609/swype-is-developing-an-app-for-iphone-but-will-apple-allow-it
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# [20:20] <Michael> Swype is the best way to use your keyboard currently, hands down
# [20:20] <Michael> ANd iphone doesn't have it
# [20:20] <danbeam> Michael: oh yeah, you bring up another point -- Apple are huge dicks
# [20:20] <vier> i would really like NFC to make me able to leave my bank card & wallet at home
# [20:20] <Michael> danbeam, I didn't bring up that point at all. Steve Jobs is on our board of directors.
# [20:20] <danbeam> Michael: I'd have to fucking jailbreak my iPhone to be able to do anything fun on it
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# [20:20] <danbeam> Michael: Steve Jobs is a smart dick
# [20:20] <vier> i mean, to make NFC popular enough that i can*
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# [20:21] <Michael> When I see NFC I think Philadelphia Eagles
# [20:21] <Jon47> when apple comes out with voice to text for all apps that swype keyboard won't look so awesome anymore
# [20:22] <Jon47> danbeam - fortunately jail breaking an iphone is about as easy as visiting a webpage
# [20:23] <danbeam> Jon47: why would I get a phone to break it?
# [20:23] <danbeam> Jon47: that's like saying "Here's my new car! Now I'm gonna change the engine!"
# [20:23] <Jon47> heh, not really
# [20:23] <shichuan> jail break is indeed a problem
# [20:23] <Jon47> more like .. uh I don't know much about cars
# [20:23] <shichuan> terrible
# [20:24] <Jon47> it's like buying a CPU then overclocking it
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# [20:24] <danbeam> shichuan: Apple is so concentrated on removing things for the sake of simplicity and IP protection they cut down alot of what you can do, and that's why I have issues with Apple
# [20:25] <danbeam> shichuan: they're phone is OK, but the baggage it carries about not picking a good service provider, not allowing apps I want, and just being OVER simplified makes me rage
# [20:25] <danbeam> </rant>
# [20:26] <shichuan> you means most apps are paid?
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# [20:26] <shichuan> yea, i hate paying money also
# [20:26] <vier> most apps are just kicked off apples stores lol
# [20:27] <danbeam> ^^ this
# [20:27] <vier> danbeam: google music beta only available in US :'(
# [20:27] <danbeam> vier: rough
# [20:27] <danbeam> shichuan: many apps are just banned for no good reason
# [20:28] <vier> so ive decided, im moving to US!
# [20:28] <danbeam> vier: heh
# [20:28] <vier> lol jokes
# [20:28] <danbeam> vier: use Tor
# [20:28] <vier> thats a terrible idea
# [20:28] <vier> not to your idea...
# [20:28] <vier> except it would be rather slow to upload >.<
# [20:28] <danbeam> vier: heh
# [20:29] <shichuan> google offers free music download in google china
# [20:29] * nbari|away is now known as nbari
# [20:29] <shichuan> all pirated, but doesnt work outside china also
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# [20:29] <vier> danbeam: also, they are banned for good reasons! like competing with apple's products!
# [20:29] <vier> oh wait a minute...
# [20:29] <shichuan> so they have a lot geo restrictions
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# [20:31] <vier> when do people think the next nexus will be?
# [20:31] <danbeam> vier: yes
# [20:31] <danbeam> vier: (to competition)
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# [20:32] <vier> i want a new phone, but preferably google's nexus line (nexus s isnt *that* great with the plastic back)
# [20:33] <vier> it would be sick if it was LG's pyramid phone
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# [20:35] <vier> anyone know when webkit/chrome will support <datalist>?
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# [20:39] <vier> :D ice cream sandwich has the holographic interface :D
# [20:39] <vier> definitely nexus s then i guess
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# [20:41] <danbeam> vier: holographic?
# [20:41] * nbari is now known as nbari|away
# [20:41] <vier> the holographic-look from honeycomb, not real holographic :P sorry
# [20:41] <vier> hmm... now i want technology to give me holograms..
# [20:41] <danbeam> vier: ah
# [20:41] <danbeam> vier: yeah
# [20:42] <vier> that would be sick
# [20:42] <danbeam> vier: http://gl.ict.usc.edu/Research/3DDisplay/ <-- like this?
# [20:42] <vier> looks pretty cool
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# [20:44] <vier> is it only monochrome or something?
# [20:52] <Michael> I like how they made it the same color as the projections in Star Wars
# [20:53] <Michael> (the 3D teleconferencing
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# [21:02] <BrianBlakely> I wonder, will NaCl be able to do gaming better than Canvas?
# [21:03] <BrianBlakely> Envisioning entire Chrome apps coded in C here… and it's scary
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# [21:05] <Michael> ADOBE MOLEHILL
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# [21:10] <shichuan> Michael: that's cool, but the sad thing is there is always a gap between cutting edge tech and open standard
# [21:11] <Michael> shichuan: I look at it like this - People still use Flash. Soon Flash Player will have 3D acceleration
# [21:11] <Michael> And it's supported in almost every browser. More than WeBGL
# [21:12] <Michael> I advocate webgl but understand that Adobe has an edge with their upcoming advancements
# [21:12] <shichuan> i think flash will change direction, cos it's losing market share in website, so will focus on more cutting edge tech like games
# [21:13] <Michael> Adobe is also embracing HTML5
# [21:13] <shichuan> adobe is not bad, they are quite open minded
# [21:13] <shichuan> hope they can create something to speed up canvas work
# [21:14] <Michael> I was really impressed with the conference I went to
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# [21:14] <Michael> Very down to earth and open minded people
# [21:15] <Michael> shuchuan: They are.
# [21:15] <Michael> I can't talk about it but they are.
# [21:15] <Michael> shichuan sorry
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# [21:16] <shichuan> yes, a lot flash guys are very down to earth, quite low profile
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# [21:16] <shichuan> hope they can talk more and share more
# [21:16] <Michael> I mean the Adobe spokespeople
# [21:16] <Michael> Or is that who you mean?
# [21:16] <shichuan> i mean in general
# [21:16] <Michael> ah ok
# [21:16] <shichuan> they are quite innovative
# [21:17] <Michael> yes
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# [21:17] <shichuan> and a lot of things about actionscript is identical to canvas
# [21:17] <shichuan> so it's very easy to port over
# [21:17] <Chat4987> Howdy.
# [21:18] <Chat4987> Just downloaded an IRC client for BlackBerry.
# [21:18] <Michael> shichuan, It'd be awesome to see a flash type ide that exported to canvas instead of swf wouldn't it
# [21:18] <Michael> Chat4987, nice
# [21:18] <Chat4987> Seems to be working.
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# [21:18] <Michael> Yes it does.
# [21:18] <skyler_brungardt> Michael: That would be wicked.
# [21:18] <Chat4987> Heck, I'll throw question out whilst here.
# [21:18] <shichuan> Michael, i am sure adobe will do something about it, maybe it's part of their plan already
# [21:19] <Michael> Maybe they'll oblige us :D
# [21:19] <BrianBlakely> Adobe should come out with a browser, and throw a whole bunch of Flash-esque stuff into it
# [21:19] <BrianBlakely> -adobe-awesome-stuff: cool;
# [21:19] <BrianBlakely> That kind of thing
# [21:19] <Michael> They have a browser-cam type service too
# [21:19] <Chat4987> Is there an HTML5 control for "frame capture"?
# [21:20] <Michael> https://browserlab.adobe.com/en-us/index.html and it's free
# [21:20] <Michael> Just can't see internal sites
# [21:20] <skyler_brungardt> BrianBlakely: Please, no more browsers
# [21:20] <shichuan> if they can create a browser that revolutionize page refresh and deep url linking, that will be cool
# [21:20] <Chat4987> I mean something akin to screencapture, but for a video.
# [21:20] <shichuan> could end the hash-tag url war
# [21:20] <Michael> I think you'll be very impressed with Adobe in the next 12 months
# [21:21] <Michael> Just based on what I saw... it was good stuff
# [21:21] <Chat4987> (b) still testing stuff...
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# [21:23] <BrianBlakely> skyler_brungardt: Open standards mean that you can support hundreds of platforms.
# [21:24] <BrianBlakely> skyler_brungardt: All-in-all, it would be another warrior in the fight against IE
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# [21:24] <skyler_brungardt> BrianBlakely: Shame how so few browsers actually adhere to them.
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# [21:25] <skyler_brungardt> BrianBlakely: And that doesn't even address the allowance for interpretation in the specs.
# [21:25] <BrianBlakely> skyler_brungardt: My apps typically work identically in everything but IE. Now it's all about which platforms *perform* best
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# [21:27] <skyler_brungardt> BrianBlakely: That discounts some of the coolest stuff CSS3 can do with transforms. Even FF and Chrome can't do what Safari can.
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# [21:34] <BrianBlakely> skyler_brungardt: Yeah, Safari has been ahead in the CSS realm for a while now. But that should be rectified next month.
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# [21:36] <skyler_brungardt> Oh? Someone's finally going to match Apple in the CSS realm?
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# [21:37] <BrianBlakely> skyler_brungardt: As far as 3D CSS goes, yeah, Chrome 12 and FF5 are supposed to land with this feature
# [21:38] <skyler_brungardt> Word. Now we need Opera and IE9 to play catch-up.
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# [21:38] <BrianBlakely> skyler_brungardt: Yeah… I wouldn't hold my breath for that...
# [21:39] <BrianBlakely> Later y'all
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# [21:39] <kobel> does anybody know why the audio sometimes has a src attribute and sometimes has source children?
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# [21:40] <uf0_work> howdy
# [21:40] <Ms2ger> src for when you only have one version, source when you have more
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# [21:41] <kobel> ms2ger: alright, you mean different browser support different versions?
# [21:41] <Ms2ger> Or desktop/mobile
# [21:41] <skyler_brungardt> Both
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# [21:42] <kobel> I see, is there a type that is supported by all browsers?
# [21:42] <skyler_brungardt> Heh. Nope.
# [21:42] <skyler_brungardt> Flash.
# [21:43] <kobel> lol
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# [21:43] <kobel> thank you!
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# [21:44] <skyler_brungardt> Np. Enjoy. :-)
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# [21:46] <uf0_work> ok so some questions about the property
# [21:46] <uf0_work> text-overflow
# [21:46] <uf0_work> I think as of now.. the only options to text-overflow
# [21:46] <uf0_work> are either right or left
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# [21:46] <uf0_work> are browsers thinking about a height limit
# [21:47] <skyler_brungardt> Nope.
# [21:47] <uf0_work> versus just width?
# [21:47] <skyler_brungardt> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/CSS/Text-overflow
# [21:47] <skyler_brungardt> Not about width, direction, or height.
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# [21:47] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: what are you noping to specifically
# [21:47] <uf0_work> and firefox is the btw the only browser that doesn't support it
# [21:47] <skyler_brungardt> text-overflow property is about how to show text that runs outside of a container.
# [21:48] <uf0_work> I see..
# [21:48] <skyler_brungardt> Browser support isn't what I'm referencing here; the MDC has good docs.
# [21:48] <uf0_work> gotcha
# [21:48] <skyler_brungardt> The options for text-overflow are "ellipsis" and "clip"
# [21:48] <skyler_brungardt> Examples in that link
# [21:49] <skyler_brungardt> But you might be thinking about the "direction" value
# [21:49] <Ms2ger> Work is ongoing on that, fwiw
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# [21:49] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: Yea I understand it
# [21:49] <uf0_work> but just wondering if they're ever thinking about
# [21:49] <uf0_work> height overflow
# [21:50] <skyler_brungardt> The direction property is "ltr", "rtl", and inherit only.
# [21:50] <uf0_work> or character limit ellipsis
# [21:50] <uf0_work> that would be really nice
# [21:50] <skyler_brungardt> Used for languages that don't necessarily flow from the left, link English.
# [21:50] <uf0_work> versus just running outside container
# [21:51] <uf0_work> in css purely
# [21:51] <skyler_brungardt> There's overflow-y
# [21:51] <skyler_brungardt> And overflow-x
# [21:51] <uf0_work> does text-overflow apply to
# [21:51] <uf0_work> overflow-y?
# [21:51] <uf0_work> I don't think so
# [21:51] <skyler_brungardt> They can work in conjunction
# [21:51] <uf0_work> I've tried
# [21:51] <uf0_work> hmmm
# [21:51] <skyler_brungardt> But do different things
# [21:52] <skyler_brungardt> If, for example, overflow is set to hidden
# [21:53] <skyler_brungardt> text-overflow could render an ellipsis
# [21:53] <uf0_work> right but that would only work horizontally not vertically
# [21:54] <uf0_work> I might just try it again maybe i'm wrong
# [21:55] <skyler_brungardt> I wouldn't rely upon it.
# [21:57] <skyler_brungardt> uf0_work: http://jsfiddle.net/6JHwe/
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# [21:58] <uf0_work> yea that works with 1 line only
# [21:58] <uf0_work> ie: white-space: nowrap;
# [21:59] <uf0_work> what if we want to do 2 or 3 lines
# [21:59] <uf0_work> ?
# [21:59] <kobel> what is the event the gets dispatched as soon as an audiofile is loaded?
# [21:59] <skyler_brungardt> You're assumed to either size your box appropriately to the content in it, which will auto-wrap, or if wrapping isn't assumed, you might try using individual tags for each line.
# [22:00] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: can you provide example?
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# [22:01] <uf0_work> oh wait multiple P tags isn't sexy at all though
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# [22:01] <skyler_brungardt> uf0_work: http://jsfiddle.net/6JHwe/ Updated.
# [22:01] <skyler_brungardt> Not sexy, but functional.
# [22:02] <uf0_work> i don't see any difference
# [22:02] <uf0_work> it's still one line
# [22:03] <skyler_brungardt> Hm. I added two more tags.
# [22:03] <skyler_brungardt> You could try the same.
# [22:03] <skyler_brungardt> Fucntional, just requires a tag for each line.
# [22:04] <uf0_work> yea I see what you mean
# [22:04] <uf0_work> but that isn't a good solution
# [22:04] <skyler_brungardt> kobel: In FF at least, it looks like MozAudioAvailable is called.
# [22:04] <uf0_work> which is why they should add something to their spec for this
# [22:04] <skyler_brungardt> kobel: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Introducing_the_Audio_API_Extension
# [22:05] <uf0_work> editorially if an editor is making an updating
# [22:05] <uf0_work> he/she isn't going to start adding multiple P tags
# [22:05] <skyler_brungardt> kobel: Though, I'd probably suggest pre-caching before specific browsers began streaming
# [22:05] <skyler_brungardt> Load the file, and catch when it's finished buffering
# [22:05] <uf0_work> I think an extra character limit option
# [22:05] <uf0_work> would be a great addition
# [22:05] <skyler_brungardt> Then stream away regardless of browser event
# [22:05] <skyler_brungardt> uf0_work: Agreed.
# [22:06] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: word
# [22:06] <skyler_brungardt> uf0_work: It's like the W3C comes up with some great "half-ideas".
# [22:06] <kobel> skyler_brungardt: how would I pre-cash a file?
# [22:07] <uf0_work> Ms2ger: is this doable?
# [22:07] <uf0_work> i meant from your end not mine
# [22:07] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: yea true indeed
# [22:08] <Ms2ger> Er, is what doable?
# [22:08] <uf0_work> text-overflow
# [22:08] <skyler_brungardt> kobel: You might look at these: http://jquery.malsup.com/media/ and http://www.jplayer.org/
# [22:08] <uf0_work> having a character limit option
# [22:08] <uf0_work> since it only works with one line
# [22:08] <uf0_work> ie: white-space: nowrap
# [22:08] <Ms2ger> I only know there are patches to add support in Gecko
# [22:09] <kobel> yeh the old embed method seems to be the better solution
# [22:09] <uf0_work> would be nice to have something like {text-overflow: ellipsis; character-limit: 32;}
# [22:09] <skyler_brungardt> kobel: jplayer looks pretty tight.
# [22:09] <Ms2ger> width: 32ch?
# [22:09] <uf0_work> Ms2ger: i'm not referring to Gecko support
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# [22:10] <skyler_brungardt> uf0_work: That would be awful for accessibility, though.
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# [22:11] <Ms2ger> I was :)
# [22:11] <skyler_brungardt> uf0_work: Think about a link, for example, limited by character width.
# [22:11] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: i can't tell you how many times clients have asked me that a box should be a certain height
# [22:11] <uf0_work> and that text can't overflow
# [22:12] <uf0_work> my solution is
# [22:12] <uf0_work> overflow: hidden;
# [22:12] <uf0_work> i just want the option to add an ellipsis
# [22:12] <skyler_brungardt> When blind users access the page, they'll pull up a list of links independent from the page, using screen reader tech.
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# [22:12] <uf0_work> versus it being clipped
# [22:12] <skyler_brungardt> Which flies in the face of layout or using ellipses.
# [22:12] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: i get your point
# [22:13] <uf0_work> but still, you can't tell me this would be more useful than not
# [22:13] <skyler_brungardt> I'd recommend trying to educate the clients on the risk of relying upon those layouts.
# [22:13] <skyler_brungardt> (Namely, discrimination and bad PR.)
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# [22:14] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: so in that case, instead of character-limit
# [22:14] <uf0_work> something else
# [22:14] <uf0_work> very similar to text-overflow
# [22:15] <uf0_work> but support for multiple lines
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# [22:15] <uf0_work> maybe text-overflow-multiple: 4; ?
# [22:15] <uf0_work> what you feel about that
# [22:15] <uf0_work> accessibility won't be an issue there
# [22:16] <skyler_brungardt> Well...sort of still is.
# [22:16] <uf0_work> it's not character limiting
# [22:16] <skyler_brungardt> Because the text is in the markup.
# [22:16] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: so that means you're against text-overflow in general?
# [22:16] <skyler_brungardt> So it's still available to anyone who's not using styles.
# [22:16] <skyler_brungardt> No, not necessarily.
# [22:16] <skyler_brungardt> I'm for accessibility.
# [22:16] <uf0_work> ......
# [22:17] <skyler_brungardt> I'd say that the best way to handle it would be some JS or server-side code, like PHP.
# [22:17] <skyler_brungardt> Detect a certain number of characters, and modify the dom accordingly.
# [22:17] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: that's the way I always do it
# [22:17] <uf0_work> php or JS
# [22:17] <uf0_work> i'm thinking this is something that should be html or css controlled
# [22:17] <uf0_work> if not CSS
# [22:17] <skyler_brungardt> HTML controlled would be a great solution.
# [22:17] <snover> wait wat?
# [22:17] <skyler_brungardt> Not CSS.
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# [22:18] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: ok we agree on that
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# [22:18] <snover> manually truncating text on the server using an ellipsis character is better for a11y than using text-overflow: ellipsis? what am I missing here?
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# [22:18] <uf0_work> snover: :) no no no.
# [22:19] <uf0_work> we're debating the following
# [22:19] <uf0_work> text-overflow only supports 1 line of text
# [22:19] <uf0_work> skyler and I are going back/forth on the best way
# [22:20] <uf0_work> to support multiple lines
# [22:20] <uf0_work> or having a character limit
# [22:20] <skyler_brungardt> A global HTML attribute, like "maxchar", would be wicked awesome.
# [22:20] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: that would be GENIUS.
# [22:20] <uf0_work> they need to do that like ASAP
# [22:20] <skyler_brungardt> Blah blah blah.
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# [22:20] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: thinking about it now
# [22:20] <skyler_brungardt> For CMS, yes.
# [22:20] <uf0_work> that's is the greatest solution
# [22:21] <uf0_work> Ms2ger: get to it!!
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# [22:23] <uf0_work> tw2113: welcome
# [22:23] <uf0_work> the following is genius
# [22:23] <skyler_brungardt> uf0_work: I'm still not sold that this isn't best handled serverside.
# [22:23] <uf0_work> Blah blah blah.
# [22:23] <tw2113> yo
# [22:23] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: I am.
# [22:23] <uf0_work> :)
# [22:24] <uf0_work> i will forever now promote this until it gets popular
# [22:24] <skyler_brungardt> Lol
# [22:24] <uf0_work> and implemented
# [22:24] <skyler_brungardt> Ok
# [22:24] <skyler_brungardt> I'm behind you on it for the flexibility, if nothing else
# [22:24] <skyler_brungardt> However, if we think about the theory behind the situations which would require this
# [22:24] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: I will live with the fact that I'm discriminating
# [22:24] <skyler_brungardt> The content would be generated dynamically, yes?
# [22:25] <uf0_work> yea of course
# [22:25] <snover> you do realise
# [22:25] <uf0_work> an editor would put 100 characters
# [22:25] <snover> that the “doesn’t work with multiple lines” is an implementation defect
# [22:25] <uf0_work> and it'll cap at 32
# [22:25] <danbeam> uf0_work: maxchar doesn't matter ... it's lines you care about
# [22:25] <snover> and the spec does specify that multiple lines should get an ellipsis
# [22:25] <snover> right?
# [22:25] <skyler_brungardt> So if the element has a maxchar limit, why are we rendering that extra markup?
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# [22:25] <uf0_work> danbeam: you're completely right
# [22:25] <uf0_work> but if there's no CSS solution
# [22:25] <danbeam> uf0_work: http://danbeam.org/ellipsis/yui/
# [22:25] <uf0_work> then I'd do a html
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# [22:26] <danbeam> uf0_work: I've thought about this a big
# [22:26] <uf0_work> i did say
# [22:26] <danbeam> uf0_work: bit*
# [22:26] <snover> uf0_work skyler_brungardt
# [22:26] <uf0_work> text-oveflow-lines: 3;
# [22:26] <snover> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/#text-overflow
# [22:26] <uf0_work> something like that
# [22:26] <danbeam> uf0_work: yes, that's a good idea
# [22:26] <uf0_work> but an html solution would be great I think as well
# [22:26] <uf0_work> but either or I don't mind
# [22:26] <danbeam> uf0_work: it's not really all that possible currently without some serious hacks
# [22:26] <uf0_work> we just need something!
# [22:27] <skyler_brungardt> snover: Yes, but no browser implemented it that way.
# [22:27] <danbeam> skyler_brungardt: wait, wut?
# [22:27] <uf0_work> danbeam: I haven't used hacks, I pretty much used PHP and set a character limit or the infamous wordpress way
# [22:27] <uf0_work> text-excerpt
# [22:27] <uf0_work> tw2113: can correct me on that
# [22:27] <danbeam> skyler_brungardt: all browsers that implemented text-overflow: ellipsis; did it correct
# [22:27] <snover> skyler_brungardt: luckily, implementation defects are implementation defects
# [22:27] <danbeam> skyler_brungardt: pretty much
# [22:27] <danbeam> skyler_brungardt: some don't use \u2026, though
# [22:27] <snover> and you don’t need to create a new *presentation* property in html to do it
# [22:28] <skyler_brungardt> danbeam: Nope - it's single line.
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# [22:28] <danbeam> skyler_brungardt: oh, for multiple lines
# [22:28] <danbeam> skyler_brungardt: nothing in the spec about that...
# [22:28] <uf0_work> danbeam: so how about a multiple lines CSS solution
# [22:28] <snover> http://zetafleet.com/i/4dc99f275c594.png chrome
# [22:28] <uf0_work> can it be done?
# [22:28] <tw2113> eh?
# [22:28] * Quits: dared (~dared@p50999198.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Verlassend)
# [22:28] <snover> danbeam: yes there is
# [22:28] * Quits: obert- (~obert@host198-207-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [22:28] <danbeam> snover: what'd I miss?
# [22:28] <skyler_brungardt> uf0_work: CSS really isn't the way to go here.
# [22:29] <uf0_work> skyler_brungardt: ok.
# [22:29] <snover> it’s a presentational property, css is *exactly* the way to go.
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# [22:29] <uf0_work> snover: ok.
# [22:29] <uf0_work> lol
# [22:29] <tw2113> i confirm nothing
# [22:29] <skyler_brungardt> snover: CSS shouldn't be hiding content like that.
# [22:29] <snover> skyler_brungardt: guess we should get rid of overflow: hidden then
# [22:29] <snover> and text-indent since that can “hide” content too
# [22:29] <skyler_brungardt> snover: We're providing a different experience for users who don't rely upon sight.
# [22:30] <skyler_brungardt> No, they're useful, but not in this case. Each of those can be compensated for accessibility in other ways.
# [22:30] <uf0_work> tw2113: http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/wp_trim_excerpt
# [22:30] <danbeam> snover: lol
# [22:30] <snover> skyler_brungardt: ellipses are purely a visual presentational construct
# [22:30] <danbeam> ^^ this
# [22:30] <danbeam> skyler_brungardt: they don't change the text of the node itself...
# [22:30] <danbeam> just presentational like snover said
# [22:30] <uf0_work> danbeam: I must say I agree with this too
# [22:30] <skyler_brungardt> snover: Only if there's another way to see the same content. It's about user experience.
# [22:31] <snover> skyler_brungardt: what?
# [22:31] <snover> that doesn’t make sense yo
# [22:31] <danbeam> ^^ agreed
# [22:31] <skyler_brungardt> snover: Say, revealing the rest of the text on mouseover, for example.
# [22:31] <snover> the whole point of the ellipses is to say “hey visual browser, there is more content here but it’s too big for this space”
# [22:31] <danbeam> also, "high visibility" accessibilty stylesheet?
# [22:31] <uf0_work> snover: instead of saying that doesn't make sense
# [22:31] <snover> an aural browser does not have this problem
# [22:31] <uf0_work> and danbeam
# [22:31] <uf0_work> what CSS can we have to do multiple lines then
# [22:31] <snover> because there is no limit on the length of text that can be spoken
# [22:32] <uf0_work> i meant will it ever be added in future
# [22:32] <uf0_work> versus text-overflow one-liner
# [22:32] <danbeam> yeah, a screen reader wouldn't care about this unless you make them by changing the software to detect text-overflow on nodes (which sounds like a bad idea to me)
# [22:32] <skyler_brungardt> danbeam: Agreed
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# [22:33] <skyler_brungardt> However, the *browser* should be providing the ellipsis, if it isn't big enough to show the text
# [22:33] <skyler_brungardt> Not the stylesheet
# [22:33] <snover> wat?
# [22:33] <danbeam> wat
# [22:33] <skyler_brungardt> Push it on the browser.
# [22:33] <danbeam> where is CSS interpretted applied?
# [22:33] <tw2113> what? no p:after { content: "..."; }
# [22:33] <danbeam> tw2113: after how long...? ;)
# [22:34] <uf0_work> like i said before
# [22:34] <uf0_work> text-oveflow-lines: 3;
# [22:34] <uf0_work> case closed
# [22:34] <skyler_brungardt> danbeam: Yeah, but don't hardcode it into the css.
# [22:34] <tw2113> 3rd paragraph :D
# [22:34] <danbeam> uf0_work: that'd be grand
# [22:34] <skyler_brungardt> Because then it doesn't scale up well.
# [22:34] <uf0_work> done deal, let's do it!
# [22:34] <snover> p { height: 3em; }
# [22:34] <snover> case closed
# [22:34] <danbeam> skyler_brungardt: you're saying add things to a default browser stylesheet?
# [22:34] <tw2113> p:nth-child(3):after
# [22:34] <skyler_brungardt> danbeam: Not a default stylesheet at all
# [22:34] <uf0_work> snover: I agree there as well
# [22:34] <skyler_brungardt> danbeam: Browser functionality
# [22:35] <skyler_brungardt> Let's say MobileSafari
# [22:35] <danbeam> snover: that doesn't work everywhere, don't think
# [22:35] <snover> p { max-height: 3em; overflow: hidden; text-overflow: ellipsis; } max three lines with ellipsis if text overflows
# [22:35] <skyler_brungardt> Detects that text flows outside its container due to small screen size
# [22:35] <skyler_brungardt> And so then renders ellipsis instead
# [22:35] <snover> danbeam: but that’s an implementation problem and does not require us to add more properties *anywhere*
# [22:35] <danbeam> snover: white-space: nowrap; is required as well, I think
# [22:35] <danbeam> snover: that's the issue
# [22:35] <snover> skyler_brungardt: media at-rules already do that
# [22:35] <snover> danbeam: it’s not
# [22:36] <danbeam> snover: how much you wanna bet? ;)
# [22:36] <snover> if whitespace:nowrap was necessary then the third example in the spec that I just linked everyone to would be invalid
# [22:36] <uf0_work> white-space: nowrap = ONE LINE
# [22:36] <snover> http://zetafleet.com/i/4dc99f275c594.png
# [22:36] <uf0_work> no good
# [22:36] <snover> http://zetafleet.com/i/4dc99f275c594.png
# [22:36] <snover> http://zetafleet.com/i/4dc99f275c594.png
# [22:36] <snover> http://zetafleet.com/i/4dc99f275c594.png
# [22:36] <snover> THREE LINES
# [22:36] <snover> ELLIPSIS
# [22:36] <danbeam> snover: use Opera
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# [22:36] <danbeam> snover: go to that page
# [22:36] <danbeam> ;)
# [22:36] <uf0_work> errrr
# [22:36] <snover> danbeam: just because the browser’s implementation is wrong does not mean it’s time to come up with new CSS properties
# [22:37] <snover> or, even worse, HTML properties
# [22:37] <skyler_brungardt> (Worked for IE...)
# [22:37] <snover> it means, file a bug
# [22:37] <snover> let the browser mfgr fix it
# [22:37] <snover> chrome works, ie works, firefox will probably work since they are bikeshedding the shit out of their stupid implementation
# [22:37] <danbeam> snover: there is no implementation in FF yet
# [22:37] <skyler_brungardt> snover: That solution doesn't cut it either
# [22:37] <skyler_brungardt> Take web workers, for example
# [22:38] <skyler_brungardt> MS doesn't implement them
# [22:38] <snover> danbeam: I’m on the cc list for the bug, they are landing patches right now for it
# [22:38] <skyler_brungardt> They might not for a good long time
# [22:38] <danbeam> snover: I've seen it
# [22:38] <skyler_brungardt> Not a "bug"
# [22:38] <danbeam> snover: but it's not there yet, ;)
# [22:38] <skyler_brungardt> It was never intended to have them
# [22:38] <snover> danbeam: and how is adding a completely *new* thing going to “get there” faster?
# [22:38] <snover> skyler_brungardt: same question ^
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# [22:39] <skyler_brungardt> snover: Doesn't matter if MS says "Not gonna do it."
# [22:39] <snover> which they haven’t
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# [22:39] <skyler_brungardt> Yeah, we'll see.
# [22:39] <skyler_brungardt> I'm not sold on it yet. IE9 is underwhelming, in my opinion.
# [22:40] <snover> they have a limited amount of manpower and prioritise what they work on depending upon what their customers ask for
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# [22:40] <skyler_brungardt> (Guess I should be careful, lest I start another flame war.)
# [22:40] <snover> this shouldn’t come as a shock to anyone
# [22:40] <danbeam> snover: it's not, but just because they're landing patches doesn't mean we can use it right now
# [22:40] <snover> that’s completely orthogonal to this discussion
# [22:40] <snover> which as far as I can tell was “boy wouldn’t it be nice to be able to text-overflow: ellipsis text with multiple lines”
# [22:41] <snover> and the answer is
# [22:41] <snover> you already can, with the features that already exist, and if it doesn’t work it’s a browser bug and you should file it
# [22:41] <danbeam> I'm not sure it's a bug
# [22:41] <danbeam> in Opera
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# [22:41] <nimbupani> wats upp
# [22:41] <jdalton> .
# [22:41] <snover> nimbupani: is it a bug in Opera that text-overflow does not work properly with multiple lines? see http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/#text-overflow
# [22:42] <danbeam> snover: I think I've read somewhere you're supposed to be required to have white-space: nowrap;
# [22:42] <nimbupani> snover: yeah
# [22:42] <danbeam> snover: but I'm having trouble finding it now
# [22:42] <nimbupani> ?paste @ snover
# [22:42] <bot-t> snover, Please paste your code at http://jsfiddle.net/ [preferred], http://paste.pocoo.org/+js or http://fixee.org/
# [22:42] <snover> boom.
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# [22:42] <nimbupani> i mean i dunno if its a bug
# [22:42] <nimbupani> i was "yeah" ing danbeam
# [22:43] <snover> I just opened Opera and it renders the spec exactly the way the spec says it is supposed to
# [22:43] <uf0_work> snover: http://zetafleet.com/i/4dc99f275c594.png that you pasted isn't realistic
# [22:43] <uf0_work> the styles need a height
# [22:43] <uf0_work> and width
# [22:43] <uf0_work> period.
# [22:43] <nimbupani> yeah seems okay to me too snover
# [22:43] <nimbupani> so what is your problemo then?
# [22:44] <snover> uf0_work: I dunno what you are talking about, that is from http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/#text-overflow
# [22:44] <snover> i.e. the text-overflow spec
# [22:44] <uf0_work> snover: even though it's from the GODS
# [22:44] <nimbupani> snover snover snover
# [22:44] <uf0_work> that wouldn't work
# [22:44] <nimbupani> what exactly is the issue
# [22:44] <skyler_brungardt> Right
# [22:44] <snover> nimbupani: these folks seem to think that it is impossible/wrong to text-overflow: ellipsis without white-space: nowrap
# [22:44] <nimbupani> oh its not impossible
# [22:44] <danbeam> snover: haha, I don't think it's impossible
# [22:44] <nimbupani> its just hard to see it happen
# [22:45] <snover> and that there should be a new property or something
# [22:45] <skyler_brungardt> Why would it matter?
# [22:45] <nimbupani> ehh why?
# [22:45] <danbeam> snover: I just remember having seen somewhere recommending it
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# [22:45] <danbeam> snover: probably just MDC page https://developer.mozilla.org/En/CSS/Text-overflow?action=edit
# [22:45] <snover> danbeam: if you look hard enough you can see people recommend all sorts of stupid things :)
# [22:45] <danbeam> snover: but that doesn't mean you _need_ it
# [22:45] <skyler_brungardt> I still maintain that server-size, or with JS, is the best way to handle this.
# [22:45] <nimbupani> text-overflow: ellipsis would occur when even after wordwrap text escapes container and container's overflow is set to hidden
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# [22:45] <nimbupani> text-overflow only works when overflow: hidden exists
# [22:46] <danbeam> nimbupani: no other properties necessary?
# [22:46] <danbeam> nimbupani: like height/width to trigger overflow?
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# [22:46] <uf0_work> ^^ this
# [22:46] <danbeam> nimbupani: hasLayout in IE?
# [22:46] <uf0_work> you need a height and width
# [22:46] <nimbupani> danbeam: i dunno which version of IE < 9 supports text-overflow ellipsis
# [22:46] <snover> you don’t need both uf0_work
# [22:46] <nimbupani> you need nothing
# [22:46] <skyler_brungardt> It's still a LOT of styles to add
# [22:46] <danbeam> nimbupani: all
# [22:46] <uf0_work> more specifically width
# [22:46] <nimbupani> you only need overflow: hidden
# [22:46] <nimbupani> width is inherited
# [22:46] <nimbupani> on block elements
# [22:46] <nimbupani> to 100%
# [22:46] <skyler_brungardt> nimbupani: I think IE8 does
# [22:47] <danbeam> nimbupani: what if it's not a block level element, ;)?
# [22:47] <nimbupani> o cool.
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# [22:47] <snover> text overflows out of a box if the box is too narrow and it can’t break the word
# [22:47] <danbeam> nimbupani: all IE6+ have text-overflow
# [22:47] <nimbupani> then I am not sure how overflow: hidden would even apply.
# [22:47] <nimbupani> you cant apply overflow to inline leements
# [22:47] <uf0_work> nimbupani: our real debate here though was for multiple lines
# [22:47] <nimbupani> oh cool danbeam thats awes.
# [22:48] <uf0_work> currently only 1 line is supported
# [22:48] <uf0_work> according to snover
# [22:48] <uf0_work> multiple lines are supposed to work
# [22:48] <snover> uf0_work: that is exactly the opposite of what I just said
# [22:48] <nimbupani> snover: what did you say
# [22:48] <uf0_work> snover: you said..
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# [22:48] <uf0_work> that text-overflow will work having multiple lines?
# [22:48] <danbeam> snover, nimbupani what if you have an inline element that wraps 3 lines -- it must be within a block level element somewhere, though, eh? (i.e. <body>)
# [22:48] <uf0_work> am I wrong
# [22:48] <uf0_work> ?
# [22:48] <uf0_work> according to your JPG
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# [22:49] <uf0_work> or w3c jpg
# [22:49] <nimbupani> danbeam: what you mean?
# [22:49] <nimbupani> text-overflow does not inherit
# [22:49] <snover> I think you are obviously going to have to clarify what you mean by “multiple lines” at this point
# [22:49] <nimbupani> which means the element it applies to needs to be block-level elements
# [22:49] <snover> since the third example is clearly 3 lines
# [22:49] <uf0_work> sure sec.
# [22:49] <snover> and it has an ellipsis
# [22:49] <nimbupani> and it will apply directly to the text inside the block element
# [22:50] <snover> anyway
# [22:50] <snover> I’m done discussing this
# [22:50] <uf0_work> example: http://jsfiddle.net/6JHwe/
# [22:50] <nimbupani> okay can I go now snover?
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# [22:50] <danbeam> nimbupani: <body>lorem ipsum......</body>
# [22:50] <uf0_work> that doesn't work in any browser.
# [22:50] <uf0_work> and that has multiple lines
# [22:50] <nimbupani> danbeam: you gotta make span display: block
# [22:50] <danbeam> nimbupani: <body>lorem ipsum......</body>
# [22:50] <snover> uf0_work: what do you think white-space: nowrap means?
# [22:50] <danbeam> nimbupani: but what if I can't or don't want to?
# [22:51] <nimbupani> then you cannot apply text-overflow
# [22:51] <uf0_work> snover: if I add white-space: nowrap; it will become 1 line
# [22:51] <uf0_work> that's not what I want
# [22:51] <snover> yeah, so why is it there then?
# [22:51] <uf0_work> which is my point of
# [22:51] <danbeam> nimbupani: ok, unless I do it myself in JS, :)
# [22:51] <uf0_work> text-overflow-lines: 3;
# [22:52] <uf0_work> so if I do add whitespace: nowrap
# [22:52] <uf0_work> it'll cap at 3 lines
# [22:52] <uf0_work> and if that isn't added
# [22:52] <uf0_work> it'll cap at the height
# [22:52] <uf0_work> like in the example
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# [22:53] <nimbupani> danbeam: text-overflow only accounts for cases when text actually overflows container dimensions horizontally for horizontal text
# [22:53] <danbeam> uf0_work: I think snover is saying you white-space: nowrap; means you'll always have 1 line, so there's no point in saying text-overflow-lines: 3; when you'll only have 1 line
# [22:53] <uf0_work> ^^^^^^ thus
# [22:53] <uf0_work> danbeam: understood
# [22:53] <uf0_work> nimbupani: I'm asking for support vertically
# [22:54] <uf0_work> possible?
# [22:54] <nimbupani> no its not
# [22:54] <uf0_work> well it's a good idea to implement
# [22:54] <nimbupani> i am not even sure how that would look like
# [22:54] * danbeam has a feeling snover said /ignore uf0_work a while ago, lol
# [22:55] <nimbupani> you should email the mailing list and ask
# [22:55] <nimbupani> or ask @t about it
# [22:55] <uf0_work> nimbupani: it would like the same
# [22:55] <nimbupani> on twitter
# [22:55] <uf0_work> just 3 lines
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# [22:55] <uf0_work> or 4 or whatever depending on height
# [22:55] <uf0_work> just like it does with width
# [22:55] <snover> I think that would be a good adjustment to the text-overflow spec
# [22:55] <uf0_work> nimbupani: can you ping me where to email to?
# [22:55] <snover> but it might be tricky when dealing with scrollable content
# [22:56] <nimbupani> not me uf0_work!
# [22:56] <snover> remember that block with overflow set to something other than visible is also a scrollable block
# [22:56] <nimbupani> mail the css mailing list
# [22:56] <uf0_work> that's what I meant, what's the css mailing list.. ping me that
# [22:56] <uf0_work> snover: true.
# [22:56] <snover> uf0_work: http://wiki.csswg.org/
# [22:57] * Quits: Michael (~disney@unaffiliated/jabberwock) (Quit: Leaving)
# [22:57] <nimbupani> it needs a lmgtfy snover
# [22:57] <uf0_work> thanks
# [22:58] * Quits: techrush (~techrush@rrcs-173-198-32-146.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
# [22:59] <danbeam> nimbupani: I don't know how to re-invite bot-t, but you'd be able to just ?g it otherwise
# [22:59] <danbeam> ?g css3 mailing list
# [22:59] <bot-t> danbeam, Vendor specific extensions to CSS3 - CSS3 . Info - http://www.css3.info/vendor-specific-extensions-to-css3/
# [22:59] <danbeam> nvm
# [22:59] <nimbupani> danbeam: I know
# [23:00] <nimbupani> botty is my best friend.
# [23:00] <nimbupani> apparently bot-t is back
# [23:00] <nimbupani> bot-t: am I your friend?
# [23:00] <bot-t> nimbupani, Without a doubt.
# [23:00] <danbeam> ?g css3 mailing list site:w3.org
# [23:00] <bot-t> danbeam, CSS3 Speech Module - http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-speech-20110419/
# [23:00] <nimbupani> awww ♥ bot-t
# [23:00] <danbeam> damn
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# [23:00] <marshall> hey html5
# [23:00] <marshall> anybody have experience drawing text in canvas?
# [23:01] * Parts: snover (~Adium@unaffiliated/snover)
# [23:04] <uf0_work> well it was good debate and hopefully text-overflow vertical support will happen sometime in future
# [23:04] <uf0_work> i'll keep at it..
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# Session Close: Wed May 11 00:00:00 2011

The end :)