/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-06-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 21 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  24. # [00:17] <melusinechan> hello
  25. # [00:17] <melusinechan> Would you guys recommand me to use or avoid html5 API ?
  26. # [00:17] <melusinechan> for Drag and Drop
  27. # [00:18] <melusinechan> (i had just missed the most important part ^^)
  28. # [00:18] * ColinHarman|afk is now known as ColinHarman
  29. # [00:20] <melusinechan> I also raise the question because i had trouble when i tested it following this tutorial: http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/dnd/basics/#toc-desktop-dnd-into
  30. # [00:21] <melusinechan> except dragstart and dragend, event does not seem to work for me
  31. # [00:21] <melusinechan> i basically tryed to make mine own system and then i copied/pasted the tutorial without any success.
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  35. # [00:22] <melusinechan> So before going deeper in the subject, i hope you guys could give me some little advises ><.
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  46. # [00:32] <rewolf> i have an html 4.01 document set up to send messages over a server. when i use the html5 doctype the mesages are displayed as "undefined"
  47. # [00:33] <rewolf> why is that?
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  49. # [00:33] <melusinechan> rewolf: html4 doctype is <html>
  50. # [00:34] <rewolf> melusinechan, so i cant just change doctype and expect it to be backward compatible?
  51. # [00:36] <melusinechan> rewolf: you just need to put <html> HTML5 STUFFS </html>
  52. # [00:37] <paul_irish> easy as pie.
  53. # [00:37] <melusinechan> paul_irish: what do you think of HTML5 drag and drop ?
  54. # [00:38] <paul_irish> its very draggy
  55. # [00:38] <rewolf> but i have a linked css and js
  56. # [00:39] <nimbu> roflz
  57. # [00:40] <melusinechan> rewolf: you can summon the help of html by pressing alt+f4
  58. # [00:40] <thatryan> paul_irish: you going tomorrow?
  59. # [00:41] <danbeam> melusinechan: careful, if [s]he has C:\WINDOWS\system32 it might not work
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  61. # [00:41] <danbeam> melusinechan: might need to delete ...
  62. # [00:42] <melusinechan> danbeam: that strongly possible ^^
  63. # [00:43] <melusinechan> SO everyone advise me to use JS DnD so i will not use HTML5 Drag N Drop
  64. # [00:43] <melusinechan> i'm so dissapointed.
  65. # [00:43] <melusinechan> it just break my heart
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  68. # [00:45] <paul_irish> melusinechan: why
  69. # [00:45] <paul_irish> i like drag from desktop
  70. # [00:45] <paul_irish> but
  71. # [00:45] <melusinechan> paul_irish: contextualise
  72. # [00:45] <melusinechan> HTML5 DnD
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  74. # [00:45] <paul_irish> but in-page dragging ... eh.. i could stick with js based dragz
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  78. # [00:49] <rewolf> does anyone have an idea why text would show as undefined?
  79. # [00:49] <danheberden> var a; someElement.innerHTML = a;
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  83. # [00:54] <rewolf> i read somewhere that because html5 is async my code will run before it gets a response from the server
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  85. # [00:58] <danbeam> rough
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  90. # [01:06] <sic1> oh man im hurtin...does anyone else feel like chrome 12 just hates webkit transitions and transforms?
  91. # [01:06] <sic1> cuz i swear i wasnt dealin with this pre 12...
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  96. # [01:17] <Misiur> Hi - any way to get svg bg with png fallback working on chrome?
  97. # [01:17] * psynaptic is now known as psynaptic|away
  98. # [01:17] <nimbu> why would it not work?
  99. # [01:17] <nimbu> ?paste @ Misiur
  100. # [01:17] <bot-t> Misiur, Please paste your code at http://jsfiddle.net/ [preferred], http://paste.pocoo.org/+js or http://fixee.org/
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  102. # [01:19] <Misiur> http://jsfiddle.net/gArZh/
  103. # [01:19] <nimbu> hahaha trololol
  104. # [01:20] <Misiur> yesterday I had trouble with opera bug (background-size with value greater than 250%)
  105. # [01:20] <Misiur> now when I need to fix everything for IE7, it gets ruined under normal browsers...
  106. # [01:21] <nimbu> Misiur: what is your usecase? if svg is not found it fallsback to a jpg?
  107. # [01:21] <nimbu> http://jsfiddle.net/gArZh/1/
  108. # [01:22] <Misiur> I've tried this: http://www.broken-links.com/2010/06/14/using-svg-in-backgrounds-with-png-fallback/
  109. # [01:23] <nimbu> o i see.
  110. # [01:23] <Misiur> Oh, cool
  111. # [01:23] <Misiur> even their example isn't working with ie7
  112. # [01:23] <nimbu> :)
  113. # [01:24] <Misiur> In your solution it isn't fallbacking correctly :c
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  116. # [01:27] <nimbu> Misiur: yeah I dont think it fallbacks :|| sorry.
  117. # [01:28] <Misiur> Oh, conditional comment as always.
  118. # [01:28] <Misiur> When all IE's older than 9 get combined total 10% market shares, then I'll drop support completely
  119. # [01:28] <Misiur> However there are cases I can't, due to specific target (people 40+)
  120. # [01:29] <nimbu> oh sad :(
  121. # [01:30] <Misiur> background-size is handy - I can create one big sprite including all backgrounds and stuff
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  148. # [02:09] <cheilmann> Playing with canvas: http://isithackday.com/logo-o-matic/
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  150. # [02:10] <thatryan> builds an image on the fly?
  151. # [02:10] <thatryan> pretty sweet
  152. # [02:11] <paul_irish> you could just do the canvas work live
  153. # [02:11] <paul_irish> onkeyup
  154. # [02:12] <danbeam> you could call it "charset instant" :P
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  156. # [02:15] <cheilmann> hahaha
  157. # [02:17] <danbeam> paul_irish: did you see preso about work on instant pages at VelocityConf?
  158. # [02:17] <paul_irish> no
  159. # [02:17] <danbeam> paul_irish: pretty cool
  160. # [02:18] <danbeam> paul_irish: ironic it talked about completely preloading pages with some chance that the user never goes there at a webperf conf
  161. # [02:18] <danbeam> but nobody seemed to care, lol
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  163. # [02:18] <danbeam> good idea, though, if the accuracy is high
  164. # [02:18] <cheilmann> true, but that would load fuckloads of images on my server :)
  165. # [02:18] <paul_irish> why is speculative downloading bad, danbeam ?
  166. # [02:18] <danbeam> it's not if they go there
  167. # [02:19] <danbeam> otherwise it's 100% waste, IMO
  168. # [02:19] <danbeam> if they never see it
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  170. # [02:19] <paul_irish> those poor electrons
  171. # [02:19] <paul_irish> never see the light of day
  172. # [02:19] <danbeam> why do you minify code, crush pngs, etc. etc.
  173. # [02:19] <ryanseddon> see http://newzealand.com/int for potential wasted bandwidth
  174. # [02:19] <danbeam> to save those poor electrons
  175. # [02:19] <danbeam> then you ship them anyways
  176. # [02:19] <ryanseddon> 20mb of images and you may never see them
  177. # [02:19] <danbeam> cheilmann: but you'd get lots of free traffic, :)
  178. # [02:19] <danbeam> I wonder what they do about ad impressions
  179. # [02:20] <paul_irish> nothing
  180. # [02:20] <danbeam> that's gotta violate some TOS
  181. # [02:20] <paul_irish> ads need to use page visibility API
  182. # [02:20] <danbeam> ah, I see
  183. # [02:20] <danbeam> but again, 0sec page load time is impressive
  184. # [02:20] <paul_irish> same with analytics
  185. # [02:20] <danbeam> word
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  187. # [02:20] <danbeam> where does visibility API exist? everywhere?
  188. # [02:20] <danbeam> or just in Chrome?
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  190. # [02:21] <paul_irish> its on standards track
  191. # [02:21] <paul_irish> ?g w3 page visibility spec
  192. # [02:21] <bot-t> paul_irish, Page Visibility - http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-page-visibility-20110602/
  193. # [02:21] <paul_irish> only in webkit atm
  194. # [02:21] <danbeam> word
  195. # [02:22] <danbeam> sounds nice to control the analytics, ads, browser, and search used for the whole experience (and possibly the OS itself?), GOOG has positioned themselves well heh
  196. # [02:22] <cheilmann> bit buggy: http://isithackday.com/logo-o-matic/instant.html
  197. # [02:23] <danbeam> cheilmann: awesome
  198. # [02:24] <danbeam> cheilmann: http://danbeam.org/instant.php got bored once and made semi-isntant search everywhere, :)\
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  200. # [02:25] <cheilmann> actually I could create the font as single images in the page without need to load images...
  201. # [02:25] <cheilmann> sprite sheet style...
  202. # [02:25] <cheilmann> I've written this generator in 1998 in Perl and then again in 2000 in PHP :)
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  207. # [02:39] <danbeam> https://github.com/fholm/IronJS another way to run JS in .NET
  208. # [02:39] <danbeam> lol
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  210. # [02:40] <rhdoenges> what is the difference between <aside> and <nav>?
  211. # [02:41] <danbeam> rhdoenges: whatever your heart tells you
  212. # [02:42] <rhdoenges> :'(
  213. # [02:42] <rhdoenges> if it is a sidebar, it should be <aside>
  214. # [02:43] <rhdoenges> but if it's navigation, it should be <nav>
  215. # [02:43] <rhdoenges> what if I want to have navigation that is a sidebar?
  216. # [02:43] <rhdoenges> decisions are so difficult
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  218. # [02:44] <danbeam> rhdoenges: there was a thread earlier about this - <aside> should be tangential but related to the current content, whereas a <nav> I think it just for <nav>igational links and stuff (AFAIK), http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/sections.html#the-aside-element, http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/sections.html#the-nav-element
  219. # [02:44] <rhdoenges> ah, gracias
  220. # [02:45] <danbeam> rhdoenges: protip: your site won't blow up if you use a <nav> instead of an <aside> though
  221. # [02:45] <rhdoenges> I think nav makes more sense in this case.
  222. # [02:46] <rhdoenges> <aside> seems like it is intended to be a sidenote rather than a kind of sidebar
  223. # [02:46] <danbeam> rhdoenges: I'd agree, but it's really up to you
  224. # [02:48] <rhdoenges> danbeam: I am using <nav>, it is my heart's true desire
  225. # [02:48] <danbeam> rhdoenges: sweet
  226. # [02:48] * danbeam throws a party
  227. # [02:49] * rhdoenges puts on his party hat
  228. # [02:51] * b- puts on his wizard robe and hat
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  230. # [02:51] <JonathanNeal> hola
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  233. # [02:53] <danbeam> b-: I know a real wizard
  234. # [02:53] <danbeam> b-: and you would too if you've ever met Kris Kowal
  235. # [02:55] <b-> just turn the lights out baby
  236. # [02:56] <b-> I cast Lvl 3 Eroticism. You turn into a real beautiful woman.
  237. # [02:56] <danbeam> :|
  238. # [02:56] <Misiur> After a lot of bugdiscovering I can finally say that page looks quite similar on following browsers: most recent versions of Opera, Chrome, Firefox and Safari, FF3.6 and the heros - IE 7-9 . Bugs found: 6, solutions found: 5
  239. # [02:56] * danbeam removes your conjugate
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  242. # [03:04] <paul_irish> cheilmann: the abbv for firefox as FX is like.. so confusing
  243. # [03:04] <paul_irish> since everyone always ever has used FF
  244. # [03:05] <danbeam> yeah
  245. # [03:05] <danbeam> cheilmann: any reason for this?
  246. # [03:05] <paul_irish> and 'fx' definitely has very considerable prior usage
  247. # [03:05] <danbeam> cheilmann: namespacing twitter search terms?
  248. # [03:05] <paul_irish> must be some reason
  249. # [03:05] <danbeam> cheilmann: FF4+ = FX?
  250. # [03:05] <danbeam> paul_irish: I noticed same thing
  251. # [03:05] <paul_irish> anyway.. REALLY BIG DEAL. :p
  252. # [03:06] <paul_irish> priority 0 ticket.
  253. # [03:06] <danbeam> SEVERITY: MAJOR
  254. # [03:08] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: normalize is now part of h5bp?
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  256. # [03:09] <cheilmann> I don't know
  257. # [03:09] <cheilmann> :)
  258. # [03:09] <cheilmann> I am just writing a cropping JS object for the fonts :)
  259. # [03:10] <cheilmann> So I won't have to load any images
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  275. # [03:32] <danbeam> cheilmann: P.S. you could just use an {obj} of data URIs for letters, btw
  276. # [03:32] <danbeam> cheilmann: probably not as efficient/cross-browser as bigass sprite
  277. # [03:32] <danbeam> but relatively easy to do
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  281. # [03:39] <cheilmann> yeah
  282. # [03:39] * tw2113 moonwalks in
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  284. # [03:39] <cheilmann> well, a sprite also allows you cleaner kerning :)
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  286. # [03:45] <danbeam> cheilmann: word
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  291. # [03:45] <tw2113> sup chris and dan
  292. # [03:46] <danbeam> tw2113: yo
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  295. # [03:46] <danbeam> tw2113: nice moonwalk
  296. # [03:46] * danbeam can see the MJ fog
  297. # [03:46] <tw2113> i abstained from the crotch grab for your sake
  298. # [03:46] <tw2113> i didn't want to risk locating it
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  301. # [03:47] <danbeam> tw2113: thanks
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  306. # [03:52] <niftylettuce> danbeam: gimme a SLICK 4 letter word
  307. # [03:52] <tw2113> lube
  308. # [03:53] <niftylettuce> danbeam: for a phone number like 123-456-BEAM
  309. # [03:53] <niftylettuce> danbeam: keep it PG yo
  310. # [03:53] <tw2113> *kicks dirt*
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  315. # [04:01] <danbeam> niftylettuce: HACK
  316. # [04:01] <danbeam> niftylettuce: CRON
  317. # [04:01] <danbeam> niftylettuce: HTML
  318. # [04:01] <danbeam> niftylettuce: TUBE
  319. # [04:01] <danbeam> niftylettuce: YEAH
  320. # [04:02] <danbeam> niftylettuce: PAUL
  321. # [04:02] <danbeam> niftylettuce: PWND
  322. # [04:02] <b-> oknutfunny
  323. # [04:02] <danbeam> b-: come up with better
  324. # [04:03] <danbeam> niftylettuce: I have some Google Voice number with sweet spelled out message but I don't remember it
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  326. # [04:03] <b-> oh I see what's happening here
  327. # [04:03] <b-> ok
  328. # [04:03] <b-> 123-456-sexb
  329. # [04:03] <danbeam> niftylettuce: CHAT
  330. # [04:03] <danbeam> niftylettuce: SEXY (though you said PG)
  331. # [04:04] <tw2113> aim for 1-277-304-8655
  332. # [04:04] <tw2113> 1-CSS-30H-TML5
  333. # [04:04] <b-> (123) SEX-4CSS
  334. # [04:05] <sic1> ? could anyone describe the difference between the latest stable chromium and the latest stable chrome channel? is there a difference? does chrome do its own thing on top of chromium.
  335. # [04:05] <bot-t> sic1, Next Period - Timeline – jQuery Core - Bug Tracker - http://bugs.jquery.com/timeline?from=2011-02-03&daysback=30&;authors=
  336. # [04:05] <danbeam> b-: sweet
  337. # [04:05] <tw2113> chromium turns into chrome, sic1
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  339. # [04:06] <sic1> ok, thats what i was thinking
  340. # [04:06] <sic1> ohy how to describe my problem...
  341. # [04:06] <niftylettuce> u guyz rawk
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  344. # [04:07] <sic1> So, i have a client, they have a platform that they say is running the latest stable chromium, just updated...
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  347. # [04:07] <ryanseddon> they're lying
  348. # [04:07] <sic1> it is doing things different than my latest chrome 12 ( tried on mac and pc)
  349. # [04:07] <sic1> thats what i told my boss!
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  351. # [04:08] <ryanseddon> unless they download the source and compiled it, lies!
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  353. # [04:08] <sic1> basically it is frying webkit-animations
  354. # [04:08] <tw2113> i used to do casual browsing with chromium, but i started seeing more buggy things, so i went back to chrome
  355. # [04:08] <sic1> frying it to a point where i dont know how it is possible
  356. # [04:08] <danbeam> uf0: sweet username
  357. # [04:08] <danbeam> uf0: (from your box, not uf0)
  358. # [04:08] <niftylettuce> ooo $-$-HTML is available
  359. # [04:09] <sic1> ok ok, so u just said bugs with chromium, but went back to chrome, elaborate on taht
  360. # [04:09] <sic1> sorry if im noobin it, but i miss the difference
  361. # [04:09] <sic1> and i feel like my clieint is also
  362. # [04:10] <sic1> iv been bangin my head against a wall all day tring to get this darn css animation keyframe set to apply properly...
  363. # [04:10] <sic1> it just wont
  364. # [04:11] <tw2113> chromium is more more development status and not so much stable status
  365. # [04:11] <tw2113> much more*
  366. # [04:11] <ryanseddon> chromium is the open source version of chrome
  367. # [04:12] <tw2113> that too
  368. # [04:12] <tw2113> forgot that detail
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  383. # [04:12] <sic1> alright, i get that part, that was feeling on it. but i guess...does chrome just take a chromium stable and use it? or modify it?
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  385. # [04:13] <sic1> well i get they use it (derr) but i guess i feel like there is just a major disconnect between latest stable chromium and latest stable chrome
  386. # [04:13] <tw2113> if my process is right, a lot of what gets into chrome, started out in chromium first
  387. # [04:13] <tw2113> someone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong on that part
  388. # [04:14] <sic1> alright thats fair
  389. # [04:14] <sic1> hmmm
  390. # [04:14] <sic1> i still dont know what to do, but i think they are messin something up that is out of my control...
  391. # [04:14] <ryanseddon> Wikipedia has good clarification over Chromium vs Chrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)
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  397. # [04:18] <sic1> thanks for the help guys
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  399. # [04:18] <sic1> ill see what i can do from here.....
  400. # [04:18] <sic1> > <
  401. # [04:18] <hsbot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `<'
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  419. # [04:57] <niftylettuce> danbeam: http://www.dialabc.com/words/search/index.html
  420. # [04:57] <niftylettuce> danbeam: someone built algorithm
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  429. # [05:09] <danbeam> niftylettuce: I have one that's something around the lines of XXX-L33T-PR0
  430. # [05:09] <danbeam> niftylettuce: lol
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  434. # [05:16] <quips> Hello. I'm looking for a tutorial on building a single page HTML5 iPhone app. Can someone help me?
  435. # [05:17] * Joins: nightfury (~nightfury@c-174-52-13-24.hsd1.ut.comcast.net)
  436. # [05:18] <danbeam> "If your web application fails in browsers with scripting disabled, Jakob Nielsen’s dog will come to your house and shit on your carpet." - Professor Markup (from Mark Pilgrim's page here - http://diveintohtml5.org/history.html)
  437. # [05:18] <danbeam> awesome
  438. # [05:19] <danbeam> quips, paul_irish is H5BP mobile friendly?
  439. # [05:19] <paul_irish> vry
  440. # [05:19] <quips> how would i know
  441. # [05:19] <danbeam> quips: maybe you should check out html5boilerplate
  442. # [05:20] * Joins: ryanneufeld (~Adium@S0106002618c70459.vf.shawcable.net)
  443. # [05:23] <quips> maybe HTMl5 is not what i'm looking for, but CSS
  444. # [05:24] <niftylettuce> ?g
  445. # [05:24] <bot-t> niftylettuce, Google - http://www.google.com/
  446. # [05:24] <niftylettuce> ?g html5 boilerplate mobile
  447. # [05:24] <bot-t> niftylettuce, Mobile Boilerplate - HTML5 Boilerplate - http://html5boilerplate.com/mobile/
  448. # [05:24] <niftylettuce> quips ^
  449. # [05:24] <quips> what is boilerplate, I don't really want to learn a framework, i'd rather know what's going on myself
  450. # [05:24] <quips> i'm already using mootools
  451. # [05:25] <niftylettuce> ?g jquery mobile @ quips
  452. # [05:25] <bot-t> quips, jQuery Mobile | jQuery Mobile - http://jquerymobile.com/
  453. # [05:25] <danbeam> niftylettuce: he just said he's using Mootools
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  455. # [05:26] <niftylettuce> danbeam: after building a startup's app with the requirement by some founder of Mootools, I strongly advise against it
  456. # [05:26] <quips> what's wrong with it
  457. # [05:27] <niftylettuce> i'd rather try to do css jp hax than use it again
  458. # [05:28] <danbeam> niftylettuce: curl http://danbeam.org/js/combined.min.js 2>/dev/null | grep "MooTools" >/dev/null && echo "I use MooTools" || echo "I don't use MooTools"
  459. # [05:28] <danbeam> niftylettuce: outputs "I use MooTools" ;)
  460. # [05:28] <quips> i like mootools
  461. # [05:28] <danbeam> niftylettuce: ask davidwalsh if he'd use MooTools, :P
  462. # [05:29] <davidwalsh> :D
  463. # [05:29] * danbeam guesses maybe...
  464. # [05:29] <danbeam> ;)
  465. # [05:30] <danbeam> I still don't think I've found a smoother anim lib than MooTools
  466. # [05:30] <danbeam> but I haven't kept looking that hard, YUI's built in easing is nice, though
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  468. # [05:31] <danbeam> davidwalsh: any special sauce in Fx that I should know about?
  469. # [05:31] <davidwalsh> Yes
  470. # [05:31] <davidwalsh> Valerio Proietti
  471. # [05:31] <davidwalsh> :)
  472. # [05:31] <danbeam> haha, ok
  473. # [05:31] <niftylettuce> i had horrible experience
  474. # [05:31] <davidwalsh> Check out the source -- it's actually very simple
  475. # [05:31] <niftylettuce> I used old old versions of it..
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  477. # [05:31] <niftylettuce> :'(
  478. # [05:32] <niftylettuce> it is GOOD
  479. # [05:32] <niftylettuce> but not for some
  480. # [05:32] <niftylettuce> espec someone who is used to jq already :P
  481. # [05:32] <niftylettuce> davidwalsh: your tuts saved me many a time :)
  482. # [05:32] <danbeam> niftylettuce: if you come in with preconceived notions, it's gonna be diff.
  483. # [05:33] <niftylettuce> danbeam: you going to register me.danbeam for $185k?
  484. # [05:33] <davidwalsh> niftylettuce: Cool :)
  485. # [05:33] <danbeam> niftylettuce: yes, seems like a worthwhile investment
  486. # [05:34] <danbeam> niftylettuce: the Thai boy band will need it eventually
  487. # [05:34] <niftylettuce> i cleaned up mootickslide royally at 1pt, but nvr committed OS :P
  488. # [05:35] <quips> anyone have any bitcoins for trade
  489. # [05:35] <niftylettuce> quips: danbeam trades BTC for Dos Equis
  490. # [05:35] <danbeam> sure, lol
  491. # [05:36] * Quits: overra (~overra@206.255.16.231) (Remote host closed the connection)
  492. # [05:36] <quips> that's about a 24 pack of beer
  493. # [05:36] * Quits: rworth (~rworth@pool-72-83-231-22.washdc.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  494. # [05:36] <danbeam> quips: PM me your bitcoin and address and I'll ship it to you, ;)
  495. # [05:37] <niftylettuce> also, quips, paul_irish probably would accept these (http://goo.gl/HvBsy) in exchange for his BTC's
  496. # [05:37] <niftylettuce> j/k :P
  497. # [05:39] <danbeam> lolyes
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  503. # [05:41] <niftylettuce> danbeam: so i found the perfect setup for getting perfect goog number
  504. # [05:42] <niftylettuce> danbeam: and also sprint has promo if u switch ur phone # to sprint you get $125 in credit
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  508. # [05:42] <niftylettuce> danbeam: i called rep and he said goog numbers work, balllerrr
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  510. # [05:43] <danbeam> niftylettuce: cool
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  526. # [06:58] <cheilmann> alright - now fully "instant" and with some CSS transforms and shit. Also - no images loaded = much faster
  527. # [06:58] <cheilmann> http://isithackday.com/logo-o-matic/
  528. # [06:58] <cheilmann> bed time
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  544. # [07:18] <cgcardona> what is recommended to encode audio as ogg on a mac?
  545. # [07:21] <ColinHarman> a great open source app is MAX
  546. # [07:21] <ColinHarman> it converts a plethora of formats for free and is pretty f
  547. # [07:22] <ColinHarman> 'in quick
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  549. # [07:23] <cgcardona> he left before I could say thanks
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  554. # [07:32] <JonathanNeal> hola
  555. # [07:32] <cgcardona> howdy
  556. # [07:32] <JonathanNeal> hi cgcardona
  557. # [07:33] <cgcardona> hey man. how ya doin?
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  568. # [08:08] <cgcardona> is this playing for anyone if FF? https://audiofile.cc/boombox
  569. # [08:09] <cgcardona> i have it working in FF and opera now on localhost but when I push it to production it doesn't work for me in FF.
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  572. # [08:22] <JonathanNeal> cgcardona: it worked in chrome so i'll try it in ff now.
  573. # [08:22] <JonathanNeal> You know, FF doesn't play mp3's with html5, right?
  574. # [08:22] <cgcardona> its not working in ff
  575. # [08:22] <cgcardona> yeah
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  577. # [08:22] <cgcardona> i am using feature detection to serve ogg to ff and opera
  578. # [08:22] <JonathanNeal> I have a flash player I like to use as a fallback.
  579. # [08:22] <JonathanNeal> oh really, cool.
  580. # [08:22] <cgcardona> it's working in ff on my local but not on production
  581. # [08:22] <cgcardona> can't figure out why
  582. # [08:23] <cgcardona> check out line 43 https://github.com/cgcardona/boombox.js/blob/master/boombox.js
  583. # [08:23] <JonathanNeal> It's not working in FF for me.
  584. # [08:23] <cgcardona> 43 through 48 are the lines that are the feature detection
  585. # [08:23] <cgcardona> how strange
  586. # [08:23] <cgcardona> it's working on my local host
  587. # [08:24] <cgcardona> oh well. At least it's working in opera and on my local host in FF. That's a good victory
  588. # [08:25] <JonathanNeal> do you have the audio files on the server?
  589. # [08:25] * Quits: nightfury (~nightfury@c-174-52-13-24.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) (Quit: nightfury)
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  591. # [08:25] * tw2113 walks in, having successfully survived windows xp
  592. # [08:25] <cgcardona> yeah. it works in opera
  593. # [08:25] <cgcardona> the same ogg file so i know it's working
  594. # [08:25] <cgcardona> i mean I know it's on the server
  595. # [08:26] <cgcardona> howdy tw2113
  596. # [08:26] <tw2113> yo
  597. # [08:26] <JonathanNeal> what's with .replace(/no/, '') ?
  598. # [08:26] * tw2113 keeps seeing people from this chat get RT'd for cool shit
  599. # [08:26] <tw2113> i need to work on that, so i get RT'd too
  600. # [08:26] <cgcardona> JonathanNeal: it's from http://diveintohtml5.org/everything.html
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  603. # [08:30] <JonathanNeal> what's the actual site?
  604. # [08:30] <JonathanNeal> whoops
  605. # [08:30] <cgcardona> https://audiofile.cc//boombox
  606. # [08:31] <JonathanNeal> oh got it, because it replaces 'no' with nothing.
  607. # [08:31] <JonathanNeal> so it would evaluate as false
  608. # [08:34] <JonathanNeal> can you console stuff, cg?
  609. # [08:34] <JonathanNeal> identify at what point it fails to do what it should.
  610. # [08:35] <cgcardona> i have it logging to the console when you click the play button and it's showing the correct path to the file
  611. # [08:35] <cgcardona> so I'm kinda stumped.
  612. # [08:35] <cgcardona> but yeah. I'm debugging and consoling
  613. # [08:35] <cgcardona> it's working locally so at least I have that to go on
  614. # [08:36] <JonathanNeal> I'll do a checkout and see if I have the same issue.
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  616. # [08:37] <cgcardona> cool. thanks
  617. # [08:38] <JonathanNeal> do you have an iphone, btw?
  618. # [08:38] <tw2113> feed it more bacon
  619. # [08:38] <cgcardona> yeah I have an iphone
  620. # [08:39] <cgcardona> it worked when I tested it last night
  621. # [08:39] <tw2113> every now and then i touch an iphone
  622. # [08:39] <JonathanNeal> cgcardona: would you put a proper demo in the git?
  623. # [08:39] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p5B3262F9.dip.t-dialin.net)
  624. # [08:39] <cgcardona> yeah I should do that huh?
  625. # [08:39] <cgcardona> yeah 1 sec
  626. # [08:39] <JonathanNeal> :)
  627. # [08:40] <JonathanNeal> Also, see if this works in your webkit-based browsers (iphone included) http://jonathantneal.github.com/scrollr/demo.html
  628. # [08:40] <danbeam> cgcardona: are you hosting these files anywhere? https://github.com/cgcardona/exeses/
  629. # [08:40] <danbeam> cgcardona: are you hosting these files anywhere? https://github.com/cgcardona/exeses/
  630. # [08:41] <cgcardona> no danbeam
  631. # [08:41] <danbeam> cgcardona: damn
  632. # [08:41] <cgcardona> heh
  633. # [08:41] <tw2113> danbeam it's called git clone https://github.com/cgcardona/exeses.git
  634. # [08:41] <cgcardona> JonathanNeal: yeah that works in chrome
  635. # [08:41] <danbeam> tw2113: it's no fun to hack yourself, bro
  636. # [08:41] <cgcardona> tw2113: no I think he was saying he wanted to hack my server
  637. # [08:42] <danbeam> tw2113: I wanted to do UTF-7
  638. # [08:42] * Joins: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55)
  639. # [08:42] <danbeam> on cgcardona
  640. # [08:42] <tw2113> JonathanNeal do a git clone https://github.com/cgcardona/exeses.git on your server space
  641. # [08:43] <tw2113> :D
  642. # [08:43] * Quits: jfszsz (~jeffszusz@66.11.186.38) (Quit: leaving)
  643. # [08:43] <JonathanNeal> I have no idea what you're talking about.
  644. # [08:43] * Quits: jeffszusz (~jeffszusz@66.11.186.38) (Remote host closed the connection)
  645. # [08:43] <tw2113> good, i'm not alone on that part
  646. # [08:44] * Joins: jeffszusz (~jeffszusz@66.11.186.38)
  647. # [08:47] <danbeam> http://openmya.hacker.jp/hasegawa/security/utf7cs.html
  648. # [08:47] <danbeam> if you don't explicitly set a charset
  649. # [08:47] <danbeam> IEs can sniff your charset automagically
  650. # [08:47] <danbeam> to be something like UTF-7
  651. # [08:48] <danbeam> which allows a whole new set of vectors
  652. # [08:48] <cgcardona> JonathanNeal: ok I got an example up
  653. # [08:49] <cgcardona> actually it's uploading the songs
  654. # [08:49] <cgcardona> heh
  655. # [08:49] <thatryan> cgcardona: boombox == win :)
  656. # [08:50] <cgcardona> thatryan: :D thanks
  657. # [08:50] <tw2113> what's the current audio support?
  658. # [08:51] <tw2113> Webkit and Opera?
  659. # [08:51] <cgcardona> is it a fail if I upload 4 songs to the github account. It feels like the wrong thing to do. How can I have a working example on github without having 2 versions (ogg and mp3) on uploaded?
  660. # [08:51] * Quits: danielfilho (~daniel@2804:13c:2:c117:c62c:3ff:fe1b:34dc) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  661. # [08:51] <cgcardona> tw2113: good chart http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/html5-audio-radio-player/
  662. # [08:51] * tw2113 is submitting to reddit but wants a note about current support for boombox
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  664. # [08:52] <tw2113> so do a quick 1 sentence current support writeup :P
  665. # [08:52] <tw2113> please
  666. # [08:52] <cgcardona> tw2113: boombox currently works in opera, chrome, safari, safari iOS. Firefox is working locally but not on production so that should be solved by tomorrow
  667. # [08:53] <tw2113> http://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/i51x5/boomboxjs_html5_audio_player_by_audiofilecc/
  668. # [08:54] <cgcardona> you rule tw2113
  669. # [08:56] * Joins: bot-t1 (~bot-t@unaffiliated/temp01/bot/bot-t)
  670. # [08:56] * Quits: bot-t (~bot-t@unaffiliated/temp01/bot/bot-t) (Disconnected by services)
  671. # [08:56] <tw2113> like a yard stick!
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  673. # [08:57] <tw2113> another idea regarding your audio files in the repo...perhaps point to a place to easily get CC/public domain audio files to tinker with
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  676. # [09:00] <cgcardona> yeah thats a good idea. It might be the better choice, I dont want to discourage people from forking this code because they don't want the massive binary files
  677. # [09:01] <cgcardona> the question is if I delete them from my local master branch and then push to github will a person who clones the branch stil need to download the files.
  678. # [09:01] <tw2113> either that, or just small samples
  679. # [09:01] <cgcardona> that seems like a question for #git
  680. # [09:01] <tw2113> like 30sec - 1min
  681. # [09:02] <tw2113> you know, kids stuff, with hidden backwards messages from lucifer
  682. # [09:02] <tw2113> claiming if they take hard drugs they'll be visiting him in the future
  683. # [09:02] <tw2113> or worse, end up like charlie sheen
  684. # [09:08] <cgcardona> tw2113: I deleted the songs from the repo and pushed to production. would you mind doing me a favor and clone boombox on github so I can see if it makes you download the songs still?
  685. # [09:09] <tw2113> paste the clone link quick
  686. # [09:09] <cgcardona> https://github.com/cgcardona/boombox.js.git
  687. # [09:09] <tw2113> or the github link and i can copy/paste
  688. # [09:09] <tw2113> thanks
  689. # [09:09] <cgcardona> np
  690. # [09:10] * Quits: exitdescription (~ping@27.96.102.60) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  691. # [09:10] <tw2113> i got boombox.js, index.html, and the hidden git folder
  692. # [09:10] <tw2113> :D
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  694. # [09:11] <cgcardona> sweetness. and it was a quick clone?
  695. # [09:11] <cgcardona> excellent smithers
  696. # [09:12] <tw2113> eh, seemed to hang a couple times
  697. # [09:12] <tw2113> but i would say 10 seconds or less
  698. # [09:13] <cgcardona> ok. Not too bad
  699. # [09:14] <cgcardona> actually no that isn't quick
  700. # [09:14] <cgcardona> darn
  701. # [09:15] <cgcardona> i'll try and remedy it tomorrow when #git is a little more active
  702. # [09:19] <cgcardona> tw2113: damn. i got 2700 hits today on audiofile.
  703. # [09:19] <tw2113> cool
  704. # [09:26] <tw2113> sad but true: side one of Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells is better than side two
  705. # [09:27] * Joins: niftylettuce (~niftylett@c-76-125-154-127.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  706. # [09:27] <cgcardona> what is this side one that you speak of?
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  708. # [09:28] <tw2113> remember way back in the day, probably your grandparents age...those huge black spinning things that played sound?
  709. # [09:29] <tw2113> commonly known as vinyl LP's?
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  713. # [09:32] <cgcardona> i thought those were only for scratching with needles to make obnoxious sounds. They are used for something else?
  714. # [09:33] <tw2113> yeah, listening to muuuuusic
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  716. # [09:40] <niftylettuce> any ui guys here want a quick project for tonight?
  717. # [09:42] <tw2113> cgcardona want me to make you feel insignficant ? I mean that in a technically harmless way
  718. # [09:42] <tw2113> go here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DDsA1SwFOo
  719. # [09:44] <cgcardona> tw2113: that was so bad a$$ that I'm not even sure if it was real
  720. # [09:44] <tw2113> i get the feeling it's real
  721. # [09:44] <cgcardona> wow
  722. # [09:45] <cgcardona> that ruled
  723. # [09:48] <tw2113> not my preferred style of music, but i can't say he's not talented
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  725. # [09:53] <cgcardona> having grown up in kentucky I actually like bluegrass quite a bit
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  728. # [09:56] <cgcardona> off to bed. talk to you tomorrow tw2113
  729. # [09:56] <tw2113> cya
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  912. # [13:50] <djazz> canvas paths question. how do I make the arcs not intersect? I just want them to add: https://gist.github.com/1037688
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  937. # [14:50] <alisalaah> Morning people
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  948. # [15:02] <vladiator> hi
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  953. # [15:07] <vladiator> Is server-sent events good for chat and loading new news?
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  963. # [15:27] <Sembiance> vladiator: http://socket.io/
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  967. # [15:29] <ryanneufeld> Anyone going to the HTML5 conf in Vancouver today?
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  969. # [15:30] <vladiator> Web Socket?
  970. # [15:30] <vladiator> WebSocket*
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  977. # [15:39] <elb0w> Are there any libs for flow charts in html5?
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  982. # [15:51] <odix> aanybody transitioned from sql to indexeddb here >
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  994. # [16:13] <JonathanNeal> mornin'
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  1003. # [16:31] <skylamer`> hi
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  1036. # [17:18] <Misiur> Guys, how to check if browser can handle svg background? It can be working fallback, JS, anything (I have working js svg support tester, yet it doesn't work for bg)
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  1093. # [17:44] <alisalaah> Does 960gs have a channel?
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  1132. # [17:58] <monteslu> haha MS is doing it again
  1133. # [17:58] <monteslu> look what's promoted on firefox twitter search
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  1138. # [18:07] <salazr> @monteslu LOL
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  1142. # [18:09] <alisalaah> http://www.winrumors.com/microsoft-uses-ie9-promoted-tweet-to-infiltrate-firefox-4-twitter-search-results/
  1143. # [18:09] <alisalaah> nice
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  1161. # [18:23] <Michael> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20071726-264/microsoft-declares-webgl-harmful-to-security/?tag=mncol
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  1165. # [18:28] <JonathanNeal> ahoy
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  1173. # [18:38] <thatryan> hiyo
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  1192. # [18:54] <rabidewok> ola amigos
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  1194. # [18:54] <rabidewok> i am looking for a recent-ish look at market penetration of html5 capable browsers
  1195. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> 100%
  1196. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> For some definition of html5 capable
  1197. # [18:55] <rabidewok> hah
  1198. # [18:55] <rabidewok> obviously if needed i can pull together something based on various browser stats
  1199. # [18:55] <rabidewok> but before traveling that road i thought i'd see if anyone knew of anything... nothing jumped out at me from google
  1200. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> It depends on the users you get
  1201. # [18:56] <rabidewok> i suppose that is true
  1202. # [18:56] <rabidewok> i smell an app brewing
  1203. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> And what you need from these browsers
  1204. # [18:57] <rabidewok> parse your access logs and spit out a % for the various features
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  1206. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> caniuse.com could help, I guess
  1207. # [18:57] <monteslu> rabidewok, just build with it. Make something cool enough that users will use FF, chrome, safari, or opera
  1208. # [18:58] <rabidewok> well my personal projects, i use that approach
  1209. # [18:58] <rabidewok> im building up the plan for a rebuild of an existing site and what features we can roll now
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  1214. # [19:00] <monteslu> rabidewok, you might want to look at modernizr so you can do feature detection
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  1216. # [19:00] <monteslu> and if the feature is there, use it. If its not, use some fallback or nothing
  1217. # [19:00] <rabidewok> ! great idea. i'd looked at that and then forgotten all about it
  1218. # [19:00] <rabidewok> well heck im thinking we can put together some kind of logging mechanism for it and start generating stats from our existing traffic
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  1220. # [19:01] <monteslu> We need a new logo. Kind of like how microsoft used to have "built for IE". Except it should have HTML5 on it, and say "built for anything but IE" and like to download pages for all the other browsers :)
  1221. # [19:02] <monteslu> rabidewok, google analytics can give you all of that
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  1223. # [19:03] <Neiluj> Hey guys
  1224. # [19:03] <rabidewok> monteslu, thanks i'll have a poke through our stats. i don't handle our analytics so haven't looked there myself
  1225. # [19:04] <Neiluj> does somebody know how to reset the <details> style in latest Chrome ? Some DOM shadow pseudo-selector maybe ?
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  1235. # [19:16] <hober> Neiluj: summary::-webkit-details-marker should select the marker
  1236. # [19:17] <hober> Neiluj: untested in chromium, i just looked in the webkit ua stylesheet
  1237. # [19:18] <Neiluj> hober: I inspected but didn't see any interesting ua stylesheet for <details>
  1238. # [19:18] <Neiluj> I'll test anyway
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  1251. # [19:32] <cgcardona> nimbu: I added support for Opera using ogg. http://goo.gl/IE5dI Also FF is working locally but not on production so I need to debug it tonight. After tonight it should work in Opera, Chrome, Safari, Safari mobile, and Firefox. Not sure about IE9 because I don't have a copy.
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  1253. # [19:34] <nimbu> neat cgcardona!
  1254. # [19:34] <nimbu> i can test for ie9
  1255. # [19:34] <cgcardona> cool
  1256. # [19:34] <cgcardona> Not sure what I did when pushing to production that made FF not work. Will need to figure it out this evening.
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  1273. # [19:41] <TheVenerableZ> Does anyone here have any experience with websockets?
  1274. # [19:41] <TheVenerableZ> can any old LAMP server implement them?
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  1282. # [19:52] <monteslu> TheVenerableZ, php isn't the best thing for persistent connections
  1283. # [19:52] <monteslu> you want something like cometd or socketIO
  1284. # [19:52] <TheVenerableZ> monteslu: what's the benefit over php?
  1285. # [19:52] <TheVenerableZ> (i'm not being snarky, im curious)
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  1287. # [19:53] <monteslu> php and apache are great for quick short lived connections. With sockets and server push techniques in general, you're keeping a connection open for a long time so the threading and event model is different
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  1303. # [20:07] <alisalaah> ?
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  1340. # [20:54] <phrearch> hm, now that webaudio landed in chromium, it may be interesting to add those nasty button bleeps once again :)
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  1380. # [22:04] <paul_irish> http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/676134/dos-vulnerability-in-silverlight-5s-3d-similar-to-webgl-dos-vulnerability
  1381. # [22:04] <paul_irish> :) benoit is a moz dude
  1382. # [22:04] <paul_irish> good stuff
  1383. # [22:05] <miketaylr> haha nice paul_irish
  1384. # [22:05] <paul_irish> i love mozilla so much :)
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  1387. # [22:06] * Aamir_ is now known as Aamir
  1388. # [22:06] <miketaylr> THEN WHY DONT YOU MARRY THEM
  1389. # [22:08] * paul_irish thinks it over
  1390. # [22:09] <tw2113> because he'd be cheating on chrome
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  1392. # [22:11] <Jon47> competition ensures fitness
  1393. # [22:11] <miketaylr> chrome's a swinger
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  1414. # [22:35] <cheilmann> ouch
  1415. # [22:35] <cheilmann> http://miketaylr.com/post/7cee1061.png
  1416. # [22:38] <thatryan> what is even happening in that?
  1417. # [22:39] <thatryan> cheilmann: you work for mozilla right?
  1418. # [22:39] <cheilmann> yep
  1419. # [22:39] <cheilmann> Principal evangelist for HTML5 and open web
  1420. # [22:40] <thatryan> which is why you make such rad presentations ;)
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  1422. # [22:40] <cheilmann> working on a new one right now actually
  1423. # [22:40] <thatryan> that button generator for supporting docs, how'd you guys make that, I need something similar for a site of mine im upgrading
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  1425. # [22:41] <thatryan> what topic?
  1426. # [22:41] * Joins: simenbrekken (~simenbrek@c85-196-101-98.static.sdsl.no)
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  1428. # [22:41] <cheilmann> for http://convergese.com/lectures/html5/
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  1430. # [22:41] <cheilmann> Silverlight: saviour of the web
  1431. # [22:42] <thatryan> oh sweet, cant wait to see that one
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  1435. # [22:43] <cheilmann> what, those? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/promote
  1436. # [22:44] <thatryan> yeah
  1437. # [22:44] <cheilmann> use the source, luke :)
  1438. # [22:44] <cheilmann> cmd+u
  1439. # [22:45] <thatryan> lol i did that yah, have already duplicated it offline :)
  1440. # [22:45] <thatryan> didnt know if ALL mozilla source was free to grab ;)
  1441. # [22:45] <thatryan> if you know what i mean
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  1445. # [22:51] <cheilmann> OK, so pinboard.in was down as their servers got raided by the FBI
  1446. # [22:51] <cheilmann> good reason
  1447. # [22:51] <cheilmann> http://status.pinboard.in/
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  1449. # [22:52] <thatryan> holy crap lol
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  1455. # [23:00] <tsidel> I'm having a hard time understanding charsets and encoding.... The W3 MobileOK validator keeps raising a red flag... http://validator.w3.org/mobile/check?docAddr=http%3A%2F%2Fgatton.uky.edu%2FURCAdvising&async=false but it validates HTML5 just fine http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fgatton.uky.edu%2FURCAdvising&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0 Any ideas?
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  1459. # [23:02] * grantg still doesn't understand why firefox went up a whole version with such minor changes. :/
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  1461. # [23:02] <danbeam> tsidel: that's strange, you're using a <meta> tag with the charset at the end of Content-Type
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  1464. # [23:03] <danbeam> tsidel: the only thing you're not doing it adding a charset at the end of your HTTP response headers for that original page
  1465. # [23:03] <tsidel> Dan - I'm not sure what that means.
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  1467. # [23:04] <danbeam> tsidel: you could set a header on the server-side
  1468. # [23:04] <grantg> Scumbag Firefox lands bugfixes and calls it a new version. :/
  1469. # [23:04] <tsidel> ah.
  1470. # [23:04] <tsidel> Which I don't have control over
  1471. # [23:04] <danbeam> tsidel: i.e. with PHP, header("Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8");
  1472. # [23:05] <tsidel> hmm. ok. it's asp...(which is new to me..) but I bet there's something similar
  1473. # [23:05] <danbeam> tsidel: probably
  1474. # [23:05] <gavacho> Response.Headers.Add
  1475. # [23:05] <gavacho> iirc
  1476. # [23:05] <danbeam> tsidel: yeah, the mobile checkers are explicitly looking for an HTTP response header before the body of the response (I think)
  1477. # [23:06] <danbeam> tsidel: which means server-side
  1478. # [23:06] <grantg> danbeam: Y U NO "Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8" ?
  1479. # [23:06] <danbeam> grantg: you're gross
  1480. # [23:06] <danbeam> grantg: in the HTML5 channel, of all channels, :P
  1481. # [23:06] <grantg> what?
  1482. # [23:06] <danbeam> grantg: that's the (really silly) content-type of XHTML
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  1484. # [23:07] <grantg> Hey, you need it to get XHTML parsed as XML and not buggy HTML. :P
  1485. # [23:07] <grantg> Seeing as many sites still do false XHTML. :P
  1486. # [23:07] <danbeam> grantg: you don't
  1487. # [23:07] <danbeam> grantg: text/html is a valid XHTML type
  1488. # [23:07] <danbeam> grantg: it's just not preferred
  1489. # [23:07] <danbeam> grantg: afaik
  1490. # [23:07] <grantg> umm
  1491. # [23:07] <grantg> -> XML
  1492. # [23:08] <grantg> browsers need the correct mime type still
  1493. # [23:08] <danbeam> grantg: you best not make me whip out the section http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#C_9
  1494. # [23:08] <grantg> otherwise it gets sent to the HTML5 parser
  1495. # [23:09] <danbeam> grantg: also depends on the doctype, no?
  1496. # [23:09] <grantg> you better go check XML-only stuff then
  1497. # [23:09] <grantg> like what I do
  1498. # [23:09] <danbeam> grantg: fuck XML
  1499. # [23:09] <grantg> such as self closing stuff that text/html would not handle
  1500. # [23:09] <grantg> I get to do a self closing <script/>
  1501. # [23:09] <grantg> awww yeeeah
  1502. # [23:09] <danbeam> grantg: :|
  1503. # [23:10] <grantg> HTML parsers screw up a lot on some self closing stuff.
  1504. # [23:10] <grantg> Because it's not valid HTML
  1505. # [23:10] <grantg> but XML
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  1507. # [23:10] <danbeam> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#media
  1508. # [23:10] <danbeam> XHTML Documents which follow the guidelines set forth in Appendix C, "HTML Compatibility Guidelines" may be labeled with the Internet Media Type "text/html" [RFC2854], as they are compatible with most HTML browsers.
  1509. # [23:11] <grantg> problem is, it's the false XHTML
  1510. # [23:11] <grantg> That 99+% of sites that claim to do XHTML use
  1511. # [23:11] <danbeam> grantg: you're false XHTML
  1512. # [23:11] <grantg> HTML with extra slashes
  1513. # [23:11] <grantg> most XHTML would fail XML validity tests imho
  1514. # [23:11] <danbeam> i.e "XHTML documents served as 'text/html' will not be processed as XML [XML10], e.g. well-formedness errors may not be detected by user agents."
  1515. # [23:11] <danbeam> ?
  1516. # [23:12] <grantg> then many browsers think otherwise
  1517. # [23:12] <grantg> WILL NOT BE PROCESSED AS XML
  1518. # [23:12] <grantg> defeats the point of XHTML then
  1519. # [23:12] <danbeam> that's why I put it there
  1520. # [23:12] <danbeam> bro
  1521. # [23:12] <grantg> It's buggy HTML then
  1522. # [23:12] * Quits: plh_ (~plh@30-6-203.wireless.csail.mit.edu) (Quit: always accept cookies)
  1523. # [23:12] <grantg> hence "false"
  1524. # [23:12] <danbeam> grantg: I had a valid XHTML site for years and it didn't gain me anything
  1525. # [23:13] <danbeam> and I never flipped to application/xhtml+xml because it's stupid, IMO
  1526. # [23:13] <grantg> It's buggy HTML that the HTML5 spec now parses.
  1527. # [23:13] <grantg> HTML5 now parses the HTML pretending to be XML specifically now.
  1528. # [23:13] <danbeam> anyways, this is #html5
  1529. # [23:13] <grantg> heh
  1530. # [23:14] <dgathright> XHTML FTL
  1531. # [23:14] <grantg> heh
  1532. # [23:14] <danbeam> FTL?
  1533. # [23:14] <grantg> IE9 does application/xhtml+xml now fyi
  1534. # [23:14] <grantg> first version of IE to do so
  1535. # [23:15] <danbeam> oh good
  1536. # [23:15] <tsidel> thanks dan. That took care of it :)
  1537. # [23:15] <danbeam> I need to reduce my server load by 40% anyways
  1538. # [23:15] <danbeam> ;)
  1539. # [23:15] <tsidel> <%response.ContentType="text/HTML"%>
  1540. # [23:15] <tsidel> <%response.Charset="utf-8"%>
  1541. # [23:15] <danbeam> thanks for the tip, grantg :P
  1542. # [23:15] <dgathright> danbeam: For asking what FTL means, you are now subjected to watching Nyan Cat for 10 minutes. Do not return until your counter hits 600 seconds. Begin... now. http://nyan.cat/
  1543. # [23:15] <danbeam> ops will be happy
  1544. # [23:15] <danbeam> dgathright: you know how easy nyan.cat is to hack
  1545. # [23:16] <danbeam> dgathright: for the lose, no?
  1546. # [23:16] <grantg> I automatically generate XML in many pages of mine, and I send it out as application/xhtml+xml because I work with XML DOM in PHP
  1547. # [23:16] <danbeam> grantg: enthralling
  1548. # [23:16] <grantg> I build XML trees in PHP, so just outputting it without reencoding to HTML makes life easier
  1549. # [23:16] <danbeam> grantg: do you have a real job yet? you're 19, right?
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  1551. # [23:17] <grantg> dnabeam: nope, and a yes
  1552. # [23:17] <grantg> *danbeam
  1553. # [23:17] <danbeam> grantg: then do whatever you want
  1554. # [23:17] <danbeam> ;)
  1555. # [23:17] <danbeam> but I can't imagine anybody that uses application/xhtml+xml IRL
  1556. # [23:18] <danbeam> but prove me wrong
  1557. # [23:18] <grantg> It's just seeing sites use the XHTML doctype that pisses me off, when they should be doing HTML
  1558. # [23:18] <grantg> danbeam: Because people want IE compat
  1559. # [23:18] <danbeam> grantg: that's what I switched
  1560. # [23:18] <danbeam> grantg: of course
  1561. # [23:18] <grantg> and they thought for years IE did XHTML
  1562. # [23:18] <danbeam> grantg: that's why** I switched
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  1564. # [23:18] <danbeam> grantg: I was validating as XHTML, but it wasn't doing anything for me
  1565. # [23:19] <grantg> mass misinformation caused people to use the XHTML doctype and type false XML-as-HTML
  1566. # [23:19] <grantg> when it did absolutely shit and giggles
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  1570. # [23:19] <grantg> and was parsed simply as HTML
  1571. # [23:20] <danbeam> grantg: yup
  1572. # [23:20] <grantg> HTML parser rules cover the false-xhtml parsing correctly for the most part, which is why people kept doing what they were doing, since they weren't seeing any adverse effects
  1573. # [23:20] <danbeam> grantg: yup
  1574. # [23:20] <danbeam> grantg: btw, I'll give you a huge leg on explaining things
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  1576. # [23:21] <danbeam> grantg: David Mark (notorious asshole) [arguably] tried to explain this to me a year or two ago
  1577. # [23:21] <grantg> even though it was really a mass circle-jerk of "I think I'm doing XHTML, and it's the next big thing"
  1578. # [23:21] <danbeam> grantg: you did much much better
  1579. # [23:21] <grantg> danbeam: heh
  1580. # [23:21] <danbeam> grantg: :)
  1581. # [23:21] <danbeam> grantg: but I also already understand it
  1582. # [23:21] <grantg> k
  1583. # [23:21] <danbeam> grantg: so, lol
  1584. # [23:21] <grantg> I still provide text/html compat
  1585. # [23:22] <grantg> domdocument in PHP allows you to save it as HTML. :D
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  1587. # [23:22] <grantg> though it's slower
  1588. # [23:22] <danbeam> grantg: ya, I see
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  1590. # [23:22] <danbeam> grantg: I just don't see a reason to construct a tree just to make your site
  1591. # [23:22] <danbeam> grantg: but I guess it could be useful
  1592. # [23:22] <grantg> I like XHTML, not for the "cause it's XHTML", but because it's XML
  1593. # [23:23] <danbeam> I like whatever gets the job done the best
  1594. # [23:23] <danbeam> ;)
  1595. # [23:23] <grantg> true
  1596. # [23:23] <grantg> I use it to make escaping stuff easier
  1597. # [23:23] <grantg> and faster generation
  1598. # [23:24] <grantg> when doing a tree on the server
  1599. # [23:25] <grantg> I think I've bitched this to death
  1600. # [23:25] <gavacho> i dont understand the holy war either
  1601. # [23:25] <grantg> I bitch about this though I think every time I see a major site use the XHTML doctype and type everything as buggy HTML and use invalid things that won't fly as XML ever.
  1602. # [23:25] * Joins: adrinux (~adrinux@93.89.134.219)
  1603. # [23:25] <danbeam> grantg: that is an interesting technique to avoid XSS, in a way
  1604. # [23:26] <danbeam> automatic escaping
  1605. # [23:26] <grantg> it's cleaner
  1606. # [23:26] <danbeam> with DOMDocument or SimpleXML or something
  1607. # [23:26] <danbeam> yeah
  1608. # [23:26] <grantg> XMLWriter FTFY
  1609. # [23:26] <danbeam> just like a prepared statement in a way
  1610. # [23:26] <danbeam> just your whole tree
  1611. # [23:26] * Quits: vazel (~wizl@ahrinia.net)
  1612. # [23:27] <danbeam> I just generally don't like constructing stuff piece by piece when you could just put it literally, but perhaps you're doing that as well
  1613. # [23:28] <grantg> I just would rather see someone do valid HTML or XML XHTML
  1614. # [23:28] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@199.223.125.118)
  1615. # [23:28] <grantg> rather than tag soup "herp derp I'm doing XHTML I think"
  1616. # [23:28] <snover> grantg: And I would like unicorns to roam the streets :)
  1617. # [23:28] <grantg> Even the mozilla wiki does tag soup xhtml that gets parsed as HTML
  1618. # [23:28] <danbeam> snover: lol
  1619. # [23:29] <grantg> view source https://wiki.mozilla.org/Main_Page
  1620. # [23:29] <grantg> the red slashes hurt my eyes
  1621. # [23:29] * Quits: phishy (~jeff@64.134.64.181) (Quit: phishy)
  1622. # [23:29] <grantg> I
  1623. # [23:29] <grantg> It's the parser saying "WTF is this char, I'm just gonna ignore it"
  1624. # [23:29] <snover> grantg: you know html5 is polyglot right?
  1625. # [23:29] <snover> it supports both xhtml and html dialects
  1626. # [23:29] <snover> formally
  1627. # [23:29] <grantg> It's an ugly parsing
  1628. # [23:30] <grantg> XHTML parsed as HTML is HTML for all intents and purposes
  1629. # [23:30] <grantg> that has to get parsed specially to remove out all the unneeded slashes and crap people put in
  1630. # [23:30] <danbeam> snover: there was this one time that zetafleet.com was XHTML + text/html, ;)
  1631. # [23:31] <snover> danbeam: blame ie
  1632. # [23:31] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5e043124.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1633. # [23:31] <danbeam> snover: oh wait, nvm
  1634. # [23:31] <danbeam> snover: HTML 4.01
  1635. # [23:31] <danbeam> snover: my bad
  1636. # [23:31] <grantg> snover: IE9 finally joined the application/xhtml+xml party 10 years late. :P
  1637. # [23:31] <snover> ya
  1638. # [23:31] <snover> As I said when they announced support
  1639. # [23:31] <snover> I don’t know why they bothered
  1640. # [23:31] <danbeam> haha
  1641. # [23:31] * Parts: adrinux (~adrinux@93.89.134.219)
  1642. # [23:32] <danbeam> snover, grantg do think that's one of the reasons XHTML 1.0 is so (essentially) dead now?
  1643. # [23:32] <grantg> If MS had supported it in IE6, we might be seeing application/xhtml+xml pages today
  1644. # [23:32] <danbeam> lol, jinx
  1645. # [23:32] <snover> I think it’s the #1 reason it never gained traction
  1646. # [23:32] <danbeam> (in a way)
  1647. # [23:32] <grantg> danbeam: I do XHTML with HTML5 stuff
  1648. # [23:32] * Joins: kadiks (~kadiks@APuteaux-652-1-119-33.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  1649. # [23:32] <snover> the #2 reason is that most people writing markup are braindead
  1650. # [23:32] <danbeam> snover: heh
  1651. # [23:32] <snover> and would never ever be able to conform to a strict parser
  1652. # [23:32] <snover> ever
  1653. # [23:33] <grantg> danbeam: I do HTML5 as XML essentially
  1654. # [23:33] <danbeam> grantg: I see
  1655. # [23:33] <grantg> that mimetype just allows me to do that. :)
  1656. # [23:33] <danbeam> grantg: word
  1657. # [23:33] <danbeam> grantg: I understand
  1658. # [23:33] * Joins: ryanneufeld (~Adium@65.110.7.187)
  1659. # [23:33] <grantg> also
  1660. # [23:33] <grantg> SVG + HTML5 when using that mimetype
  1661. # [23:33] <danbeam> grantg, snover when I changed my validation from XHTML1.0 -> HTML5 it was amazing how much more "forgiving" HTML5 is
  1662. # [23:34] <grantg> heh
  1663. # [23:34] * Quits: ryanneufeld (~Adium@65.110.7.187) (Client Quit)
  1664. # [23:34] <danbeam> but one could also call it "easy for the braindead", heh
  1665. # [23:34] <grantg> yeah
  1666. # [23:35] <grantg> It's sad that HTML books advocate putting XML markups in HTML pages, thinking it will make a difference
  1667. # [23:35] * Quits: kadiks (~kadiks@APuteaux-652-1-119-33.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Client Quit)
  1668. # [23:35] <grantg> just made the HTML5 spec change the parsing rules to accomodate the tag soup b.s.
  1669. # [23:35] <snover> It’s very OCD but I do prefer xml-dialect html5
  1670. # [23:35] <shepazu> grantg: it can make a different in different toolchains
  1671. # [23:35] <grantg> heh
  1672. # [23:36] <shepazu> some authoring tools, some processing scripts
  1673. # [23:36] <shepazu> it can be safer
  1674. # [23:36] <grantg> but in the end it's parsed inside the HTML parser
  1675. # [23:36] <grantg> not the XML parser
  1676. # [23:36] <grantg> in browsers
  1677. # [23:36] <shepazu> in browsers
  1678. # [23:36] <grantg> heh
  1679. # [23:36] <shepazu> :)
  1680. # [23:37] * shepazu is slightly worried that people who mix SVG and HTML will take shortcuts with their SVG markup and it won't work in Illustrator, Inkscape, etc.
  1681. # [23:38] * grantg just doesn't want to see red slashes in the view source page on 99% of the websites out there. :)
  1682. # [23:38] <grantg> heh
  1683. # [23:39] <cheilmann> well, SVG working in illustrator is a bit of a stretch
  1684. # [23:39] <grantg> shepazu: Hence why browsers started with SVG in XML XHTML only
  1685. # [23:39] <grantg> hey cheilmann
  1686. # [23:39] <grantg> :P
  1687. # [23:39] <shepazu> cheilmann: what do you mean?
  1688. # [23:39] <cheilmann> A lot of exported SVG I got was full of stuff I didn't need
  1689. # [23:40] <shepazu> oh, Illustrator export is terrible, true
  1690. # [23:40] <shepazu> it's really bad about clippaths, which choke firefox
  1691. # [23:42] * grantg has another gripe and that's mozRequestAnimationFrame. :/
  1692. # [23:42] <grantg> So buggy on some OSes. :(
  1693. # [23:42] <grantg> and low FPS in many cases
  1694. # [23:44] * Quits: grantg (~chatzilla@69.88.160.3) (Quit: bbl)
  1695. # [23:44] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@199.223.125.118) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1696. # [23:44] <moo-_-> related: is there a tutorial how to make your <canvas> animation loop smooth as possible
  1697. # [23:53] * Quits: nicksergeant (~anonymous@74.112.37.178) (Quit: nicksergeant)
  1698. # Session Close: Wed Jun 22 00:00:00 2011

The end :)