/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-08-11 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Aug 11 00:00:01 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:02] <BrianBlakely> $99 for a JavaScript library (Sencha Touch Charts)
# [00:02] <BrianBlakely> I'm not saying people shouldn't be paid for this kind of work, but it is something I am not used to seeing…
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# [00:19] <paul_irish> http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2011/08/10/BROWSER_WARS.jpg?tag=contentMain;contentBody
# [00:21] <paul_irish> http://egraether.com/soft.html
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# [00:24] <materialdesigner> hey paul_irish does the new HTML5BP not come with respond in it?
# [00:24] <squeakytoy> thats crazy
# [00:25] <paul_irish> materialdesigner: its in the modernizr js
# [00:25] <materialdesigner> oh rry
# [00:25] <squeakytoy> this is minecraft but in html5
# [00:25] <xonecas> materialdesigner: because it is in modernizr
# [00:25] <materialdesigner> when did that happen? lol
# [00:25] <paul_irish> today.
# [00:26] <materialdesigner> ah, this comment made me think they were two separate things
# [00:26] <materialdesigner> <!-- All JavaScript at the bottom, except for Modernizr / Respond.
# [00:26] <materialdesigner> Modernizr enables HTML5 elements & feature detects; Respond is a polyfill for min/max-width CSS3 Media Queries
# [00:26] <materialdesigner> For optimal performance, use a custom Modernizr build: www.modernizr.com/download/ -->
# [00:26] <materialdesigner> ugh, fucking IRC paste
# [00:26] <materialdesigner> and then it just shows the modernizr <script>
# [00:27] <nimbu> hmm
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# [00:27] <nimbu> should probably update that to reflect that that we are including custom build
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# [00:27] <materialdesigner> also, mention of respond.js on html5bp homepage doesn't make it seem like it's included in the modernizr custom build
# [00:28] <paul_irish> yah
# [00:28] <paul_irish> materialdesigner: do you want to pullreq some clarity in wording?
# [00:28] <materialdesigner> sure
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# [00:28] <paul_irish> if it's less words, that's even better.
# [00:28] * materialdesigner is now one of 984 forks
# [00:29] <paul_irish> :)
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# [00:33] <materialdesigner> https://github.com/chendrix/html5-boilerplate/blob/master/index.html ?
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# [00:34] <materialdesigner> also, is there a reason for using explicitly jquery 1.6.2 instead of /libs/jquery/1/jquery.min.js ?
# [00:34] <nimbu> yes
# [00:35] <nimbu> we dont want to use bleeding edge and break things
# [00:35] <nimbu> also this sgtm
# [00:35] <nimbu> can u send a pull req?
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# [00:35] <materialdesigner> sure
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# [00:35] <materialdesigner> sent
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# [00:37] <paul_irish> ?g paul irish google ajax caching @ materialdesigner
# [00:37] <bot-t1> materialdesigner, Caching and Google's Ajax Libraries API Cache your ... - Paul Irish - http://paulirish.com/2009/caching-and-googles-ajax-libraries-api/
# [00:37] <nimbu> pulled
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# [00:37] <materialdesigner> aha
# [00:38] <materialdesigner> must have missed that blog post :3
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# [00:39] <materialdesigner> there could still be some clarification in the README
# [00:39] <materialdesigner> but oh well
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# [01:46] <matterseb> Hi, I have a problem with Canvas HTML5..On my new machine I have this error message happening and the canvas is not showing :
# [01:46] <matterseb> OpenGL LayerManager Initialized Succesfully. Version: 2.1 ATI-1.6.36 Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc. Renderer: ATI Radeon HD 2400 OpenGL Engine FBO Texture Target: TEXTURE_2D
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# [01:46] <matterseb> any ideas ?
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# [01:48] <Thasmo> Hi folks! Regarding this: http://jsfiddle.net/Thasmo/9SMf5/ If I don't support IE6, would it be better to use selector 1 or use selector 2 and get rid of the classes "content" and "nocontent"?
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# [02:01] <irae_> Thasmo, I think any code should be as clear as possible and using complex selectors for the sake of avoiding older browsers seems to me getting more overhead in developing and maintaining your code because of IE6.
# [02:01] <irae_> I imagine this is contrary to what you should be doing.
# [02:02] <irae_> IMHO, just don't test it, or use conditional comments in a way that IE 6 get no styles at all.
# [02:02] <gavacho> so if you had semantic classes like 'text', 'video', 'divider', 'image', 'quote' then i would suggest using a .divider selector
# [02:02] <irae_> by don't test it, I mean: let it completely break.
# [02:02] <Thasmo> Sorry, I'm totally confused now. :D
# [02:02] <gavacho> and getting rid of content/nocontent
# [02:04] <Thasmo> The elements have classes "content-*". That is enough to target them with attribute selectors. But the question is, if that is "fine" if I don't mind to support IE6. I just wanna get rid of a "helper" class named "content".
# [02:05] <Thasmo> So to target all elements with "content-*" classes applied I can use the selector [class|=content], that's working. But I'm wondering if it's better to use ".content" and apply a additional classname "content" to all elements.
# [02:06] <Thasmo> <section class="content content-text" /> or just <section class="content-text" />.
# [02:06] <Thasmo> seconds seems nicer to me, but the attribute selector seems more difficult.
# [02:06] <irae_> I think he meant <div class="content text"> or <div class="divider text">
# [02:06] <Thasmo> so im wondering if it's just a matter of taste or if there are any other things to consider.
# [02:07] <gavacho> http://jsfiddle.net/9SMf5/1/
# [02:07] <Thasmo> irae_, yeah probably the divider thing is a bad example, that's not what it's all about.
# [02:07] <irae_> you don't need .content-video if .video is aways a content.
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# [02:07] <gavacho> is how i would approach it. ymmv
# [02:08] <Thasmo> gavacho, don't mind the divider. it was a bad example. http://jsfiddle.net/Thasmo/9SMf5/2/
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# [02:09] <Thasmo> I just would like to know if it's better to use a class like "content-text" with an attribute selector OR an additional class "content" and use the class selector.
# [02:09] <irae_> additional classes are way better then complex classes
# [02:10] <irae_> but what gavancho is saying is that you can even get rid of all .content classes if all your sections will have it
# [02:10] <Thasmo> irae_, yeah but classes like "content-*" imply having a relation to "content" so I'm wondering if it would make sense to have 2 classes at all? class="content content-text"
# [02:11] <gavacho> if your goal is to get rid of .content and .content-* then my personal preference would be to select .text, .video, .image, .quote { bg: #whatever; }
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# [02:11] <gavacho> instead of [class|=content]
# [02:11] <gavacho> but i can't justify it more than my personal preference
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# [02:11] <Thasmo> irae_, yeah I got that but I'm using a CMS and therefor not all sections are "content" so I need to define a classname for sections which are generated content sections.
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# [02:12] <irae_> [class|=content] is ugly and I could bet that it's bad performance-wise
# [02:12] <Thasmo> gavacho, mind that there are/could be dozens of different content types and I wanna select them all without having a huge comma seperated selector mess.
# [02:12] <irae_> I would go with <section class="content text"> then
# [02:14] <Thasmo> gavacho, I understand - the point in using the "content-" prefix is to have some kind of namespace to avoid colliding with any other classes anyone may use in another context where he might use "text" as classname as well.
# [02:14] <irae_> Thasmo: it appears that you had your answer already before posting the question here… ;)
# [02:15] <Thasmo> irae_, performance could be a point then, yes.
# [02:15] <Thasmo> irae_, haha :D no I don't have them yet. :>
# [02:15] <Thasmo> ofc my tendence was/is to use only class="content-*" and target all with the attribute selector, but I just wanted to get more oppinions on that.
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# [02:16] <Thasmo> the HTML markup is a lot cleaner imho when only using "one" classname and not two
# [02:16] <gavacho> yeah, if youre going to add classes for presentation purpose then adding a content class is just as good as adding a "use-green-background-class"
# [02:16] <irae_> About the collision, it will depend on the size of the project and how you and the other devs are following some in-house rules and code style guideline.
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# [02:16] <gavacho> and only one step away from adding a wrapper dom element
# [02:17] <gavacho> to do something like .wrapper-element section { ... }
# [02:17] <Thasmo> irea_ you know, the point is this: <section class="content content-text layout layout-4 frame frame-7" /> or <section class="content-text layout-4 frame-7" />
# [02:18] <irae_> with smaller meaningful classes the collision should be minimal and when it happens you can increase selector precedence by using some of the parents element name or classes to tell then apart.
# [02:18] <Thasmo> Thasmo, I feel I'm using CSS hte wrong way :D
# [02:19] <gavacho> how semantic do you want to be
# [02:19] <Thasmo> irae_, gavacho using a wrapper/selector precedence would be a solution, but the point is that the CMS generates those content elements on different places and I want to avoid having (again) multiple selectors for all wrappers.
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# [02:20] <gavacho> can you demonstrate what youre talking about with another fiddle?
# [02:21] <Thasmo> gavacho, yep one moment
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# [02:24] <Thasmo> gavacho, irae_, this CSS selection "mess" seems just to be an overhead for me, I'd prefer to just use a single class for all the "content elements". http://jsfiddle.net/Thasmo/82Bv5/
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# [02:25] <gavacho> ok
# [02:25] <gavacho> have you explored SASS at all?
# [02:25] <irae_> could #context or #main have any <section>s that are not to receive the green background?
# [02:25] <gavacho> http://sass-lang.com/
# [02:26] <gavacho> it aliviates a lot of css nonsense
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# [02:26] <Thasmo> irae_, yes they could have probably sections which come from custom CMS modules which are not "content":
# [02:26] <irae_> gavacho: I don't think sass is a good solution here. he would end up having the same production code that is big and clumsy.
# [02:26] <gavacho> you could write: #main, #context { .text, .image, .video, .code { ... } }
# [02:27] <Thasmo> gavacho, yes I'm aware of sass/less etc. but I haven't used it yet, still I wanna use it in some near future.
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# [02:28] <Thasmo> gavacho, irae_, so I'd like to use this: http://jsfiddle.net/Thasmo/82Bv5/2/
# [02:28] <irae_> for the sake of maintainability I would still go with <section class="content video"> and risk the collision. if you have coding standards respected by all programmers on your team, you should be fine and have a more readable code.
# [02:28] <Thasmo> still I'm wondering if I should add a class "content" to all sections and use ".content" as selector.
# [02:28] <irae_> it's more meaningful to do that
# [02:29] <gavacho> i'd use .content instead of content-
# [02:29] <irae_> agreed
# [02:29] <Thasmo> class="content video"?
# [02:29] <irae_> positive
# [02:30] <Thasmo> I could use ".content.video" to target "content video elements" then.
# [02:30] <Thasmo> instead of ".content-video".
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# [02:31] <Thasmo> ow heck, I needa wind up my brain to get this liked by myself :D
# [02:32] <irae_> the only scenario I would shoot for content-* and [class|=content] is if your CMS will be generating static pages by the thousands and you have a massive number of front end devs that you are not entirely sure to follow your company guidelines and/or best practices.
# [02:32] <Thasmo> Still I think I need some namespacing. like "my-content" or whatever to avoid collision with any other classnames a developer may use.
# [02:32] <irae_> in the past I worked in such a scenario, and all kinds of hacks must be applied, since IE6 was mandatory.
# [02:33] <Thasmo> irae_, yes the reason is also that the CMS we use has a public module repository where you can just choose and install modules you need.
# [02:33] <Thasmo> yes if I wanr IE6 support I would use an additonal class "content" ofc
# [02:34] <Thasmo> point is there's not only "content" but also other classes for styling purposes. like I mentioned earlier.
# [02:34] <Thasmo> and that will just blow the css attribute up.
# [02:34] <Thasmo> <section class="content content-text layout layout-4 frame frame-7" />
# [02:35] <Thasmo> ANd I thought it makes sense to get rid of the generic classes "layout", "frame", "content" etc.
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# [02:36] <irae_> complex selectors are there for this kind of edge cases. if you are positive that will be hard to scale with simpler classes, go for content-* and [class|=content]
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# [02:37] <Thasmo> its scaleable either with "content-*" or the separate class "content" whereI would also have IE6 support then. Just the markup gets a bit larger.
# [02:38] <irae_> bear in mind that [class|=content] is a weak selector. it's easy to use two classes and override your rule.
# [02:38] <Thasmo> ofc, but it has the same weight as a class selector.
# [02:38] <gavacho> the way i see it, without using sass/less/etc, you can't have it all. pick either semantic markup (less classes, more selectors) or sensible selectors (more classes, fewer selectors)
# [02:39] <Thasmo> so it's equal to ".content"
# [02:39] <irae_> some output like http://jsfiddle.net/Thasmo/82Bv5/ generated by sass, as suggested by gavacho could be best if you have so many modules written by third parties.
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# [02:41] <Thasmo> gavacho, alright - thanks. gavacho, irae_, I'd like to use the "less classes" approach, which has no IE6 support, but I'm wondering if there are any other downtakes, like maybe performance etc.? Can you think of any, besides more complex selectors?
# [02:42] <Thasmo> cause what I've read also selector weight is equal comparing ".content" to "[class|=content]"
# [02:42] <gavacho> complex selectors are less maintainable and the benefits of semantic markup are arguably theoretical
# [02:42] <gavacho> (personal opinion, plz dont flame)
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# [02:44] <Thasmo> gavacho, I won't flame. :D Ofc complex selectors are less maintainable, bit a "simple" attr selector isn't that of an overhead? Or do you think it can makes problems in certain situations?
# [02:44] <Thasmo> bit=but
# [02:45] <Thasmo> I think the benefits of having a cleaner markup with less classes supports the decision to use somewhat more complex selectors, no?
# [02:45] <gavacho> i see the possibility of someone adding an element later on with a class name .contentcontainer and your selector unintentionally selects it
# [02:45] <irae_> personally I don't think that attribute selectors as so great an overhead. IE6 is almost dead by now and even beginners will be expected to know more complex selectors really soon.
# [02:45] <Thasmo> gavacho, no [class|=*] only selects values which match or are devided by hyphens (-).
# [02:46] <Dravekx> Can someone please explain why header and nav are not aligned on the right side? http://jsfiddle.net/dravekx/rVKQf/8/
# [02:46] <gavacho> didn't know that
# [02:46] <Thasmo> so it will only match "content" or "content-text" but not "contenttext"
# [02:46] <gavacho> but suppose they did content-container
# [02:46] <gavacho> it seems like attribute selectors may be overly broad
# [02:46] <gavacho> but i haven't thought about that issue too much
# [02:47] <Thasmo> gavacho, what do you mean with broad?
# [02:47] <irae_> the same can happen with class="content wrapper"
# [02:47] <gavacho> yeah
# [02:49] <Thasmo> irae_, gavacho, yes it could happen - what I didn't mention was that I'm gonna use a quite unique prefix/namespace for the CMS-generated classes like "xyz-content-text" or "xyz-content". I don't think I can get rid of them because then I would be in real trouble.
# [02:49] <gavacho> ok
# [02:49] <Thasmo> it's like qhat jquery ui etc. does with special namespacing/prefixing classes
# [02:50] <irae_> it really depends on how the modules are loaded by the system
# [02:50] <irae_> it seems you are in need of a module repository that validates the code agains some rules.
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# [02:51] <Thasmo> irae_, there are like 5000 modules/extensions and by now there's no such thing. I mean it validates things like the extension key which must be unique ofc, but it does not validate css class names etc.
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# [02:52] <irae_> if the system is the big already, this discussion don't help you much
# [02:53] <irae_> you will end-up with very complex classes and selectors anyway
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# [02:55] <Thasmo> irae_, yeah it's kinda a problem - not too difficult to solve, because people don't use that weird classnames or selectors by far. Normally we copy the module's templates, change the template inclusion path and modify the templates to our needs.
# [02:55] <Thasmo> thats not a big deal anayway.
# [02:56] <Thasmo> Probably it's possible to get rid of the vendor prefixes css classes anyway, but I'd need some time and recherche to check that out.
# [02:57] <Dravekx> uhm. so... anyone have a clue why nav borders dont match header borders?
# [02:58] <Thasmo> Dravekx, delete "width: 100%" from the "header"
# [02:58] <Dravekx> ah!
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# [03:00] <Dravekx> Thasmo, ++ ... I knew it was something simple.
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# [03:00] <Thasmo> Dravekx :D try "Thasmo++" :D np
# [03:01] <Thasmo> aww yes :D
# [03:01] <Dravekx> Thasmo++
# [03:01] <Dravekx> lol
# [03:01] <Thasmo> irae_++
# [03:01] <Thasmo> gavacho++
# [03:01] <Thasmo> !karma Thasmo
# [03:01] <Thasmo> oO
# [03:01] <Thasmo> !karma
# [03:01] <Thasmo> :>
# [03:01] <Thasmo> lol
# [03:01] <Thasmo> was used to this in another channel .. *cough*
# [03:02] <Thasmo> no such feature here :D
# [03:02] <irae_> =]
# [03:02] <Dravekx> Thasmo, Im wondering if I should leave the width, and set it to the other containers as well
# [03:03] <Dravekx> either way will work.
# [03:03] * Dravekx guesses
# [03:04] <Thasmo> Dravekx, no remove it - the problem is you have width 100% and border 1px which makes a total width of 100%+2px
# [03:04] <Thasmo> which is more than 100%
# [03:04] <Dravekx> good point.
# [03:04] <Thasmo> thats what I miss in CSS, like defining a width of 50% but still use padding or border.
# [03:05] <Thasmo> any idea anyone? never figured that out,
# [03:05] <Thasmo> and I mean border/padding in pixels not %
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# [03:09] <nimbu> what do you want Thasmo
# [03:09] <nimbu> you can use box-sizing
# [03:09] <Thasmo> nimbu, that's CSS3?
# [03:10] <nimbu> yes but works in most modern browsers
# [03:10] <nimbu> i think you need to prefix for moz and webkit
# [03:11] <Thasmo> nimbu, interesting. what is IE support? IE7?
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# [03:11] <Dravekx> im not touching css3 on any client sites yet.
# [03:11] <Thasmo> Dravekx, where r u from?
# [03:12] <nimbu> ?g box-sizing css tricks
# [03:12] <bot-t1> nimbu, Box Sizing | CSS-Tricks - http://css-tricks.com/7323-box-sizing/
# [03:13] <Thasmo> nimbu, seems IE8 and above know it.
# [03:14] <nimbu> Thasmo: you could probably display: inline for IE6, 7 and get the same effect
# [03:14] <Dravekx> Thasmo, Memphis, TN
# [03:14] <Thasmo> nimbu, thanks I will have it in mind. Nice, thanks - havent heard about box-sizing yet. Looks pretty nice.
# [03:15] <Thasmo> Dravekx, I see - the US then. :>
# [03:15] <Dravekx> yes :)
# [03:16] <Thasmo> Dravekx, I haven't even really dugg into the CSS3 topic yet, but it may be that I used some CSS3 magic in projects some time ago. But as it was tested in all browsers it may had worked crossbrowser.
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# [03:16] <Thasmo> So, ofc. if there's CSS3 for which there's no useful fallback, it doesn't make sense.
# [03:17] <Thasmo> * CSS3 feature
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# [03:22] <Dravekx> Thasmo, CSS3 is amazing, but from what i can tell, different browsers support different features. There's no definite standard. Until that happens, I'm keeping it away from professional clients. If they ask, I recommend against it.
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# [03:23] <Thasmo> Dravekx, at least you may have clients knowing that CSS is. :D
# [03:23] <Thasmo> that = what
# [03:23] <Dravekx> :D
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# [03:25] <Thasmo> Here in Europe it's like "Can we have music being played as soon one opens the website? And please let me mark important text RED. And ... how can I ... what is a browser?" ... :D
# [03:26] <Dravekx> lol. is <blink> a new technology?
# [03:26] <Thasmo> We got a client which things google only indexes black colored text. Awesome. :D
# [03:26] <Thasmo> thiks
# [03:26] <Thasmo> thinks
# [03:27] <Thasmo> or "who" - im already to tired - its 3:30 am here .D
# [03:29] <Thasmo> Dravekx, how's that in the US - do you optimize your client's website for mobile in general or is it a separate service for which the clients needs to pay extra?
# [03:31] <Dravekx> Thasmo, I charge extra. I know some other smaller professionals who package it with their bids.
# [03:32] <Thasmo> Dravekx, k - you have multiple "packages", like basic mobile, advanced mobile? I guess you use media queries for "basic"?
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# [03:35] <Dravekx> Thasmo, depends on the client and their target audience.
# [03:35] <Thasmo> Dravekx, I see.
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# [03:37] <Dravekx> if a client want a single front page for web, and a target for tablet and mobile user, then you have to decide if they need separate connected sites for each device or a single site with media queries.
# [03:38] <Dravekx> then you have the weirdos who have table infested 1990 websites and want mobile conversion. ( <3 those )
# [03:39] <danbeam> ?tell matjas I lol'ed at your CL - http://codereview.chromium.org/6628078/
# [03:39] <bot-t> danbeam, Okay.
# [03:40] <Thasmo> Dravekx, I see. Happy I never had to pimp a table-website for mobile. :D
# [03:40] <Thasmo> Btw. just found this, lol: http://www.phpied.com/files/location-location/location-location.html
# [03:42] <Thasmo> So, Dravekx thanks for the talk and also thx to all who helped me. Needa sleep - no way round. :D See you all.
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# [04:31] <thirteenth> Is this the right place to ask about HTML5 Youtube?
# [04:31] <thirteenth> IIRC, there's no Youtube specific channel
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# [08:52] <asher^> hello all. does html5 provide a method for loading parts of pages dynamically? or is something like ajax still required?
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# [09:44] <moo-_-> asher^: ajax
# [09:44] <moo-_-> asher^: why would you think it's changed?
# [09:44] <moo-_-> asher^: you still have history API which makes navigation less painful
# [09:44] <moo-_-> and you can use hash bang urls easier
# [09:45] <asher^> thanks
# [09:45] <asher^> im new to both ajax and html5, i usually work on the backend stuff, which is why i didnt know
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# [09:57] <moo-_-> asher^: yep
# [09:57] <moo-_-> asher^: all HTML4 is still in HTML5 :)
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# [09:58] <asher^> yeah. i was reading that html5 supports communication between client and server though, which is why i asked. i didnt know the extent to which it would be used
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# [10:16] <moo-_-> asher^: aah
# [10:16] <moo-_-> asher^: websockets
# [10:16] <moo-_-> it's "raw" TCP/IP
# [10:16] <moo-_-> not HTTP based
# [10:16] <moo-_-> and has push and pull, not just pull
# [10:17] <moo-_-> "raw" in quotation marks because you send messages which are delimited by zero byte, not raw packets
# [10:17] <jetienne_> this is a generalisation
# [10:17] <jetienne_> moo-_-: i guess you know that but i had to tell for asher^
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# [10:50] <phrearch> latest websocket protocol support binary messages now as well iirc
# [10:50] <phrearch> http://blog.chromium.org/2011/08/new-websocket-protocol-secure-and.html
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# [14:33] <jetienne> phrearch: you know what is the position of firefox on this ?
# [14:33] <phrearch> jetienne: about hybi 10?
# [14:33] <jetienne> Ms2ger: firefox will enable websocket by default with the new proto ?
# [14:33] <jetienne> phrearch: yep
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# [14:34] <phrearch> firefox 7 will support it i read somewhere
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# [14:35] <jetienne> phrearch: by default ?
# [14:35] <jetienne> this is the key part :)
# [14:35] <phrearch> im still stuck with hyxi .76 anyway :)
# [14:35] <jetienne> ok :)
# [14:35] <phrearch> im not sure. think it will settle down a bit after hybi 10
# [14:35] <phrearch> at least, they said so on the chromium blog. no major changes anymore
# [14:36] <phrearch> would like to get it working with twisted asap. binary framing could be handy
# [14:36] <jetienne> phrearch: how would you use the binary from the browser ?
# [14:37] <phrearch> ehm, i think it supports something called typed arrays. not sure yet, but it should be possible to just send blobs over the wire
# [14:37] <phrearch> right now, youll have to base64 encode that data, which increases overhead big time
# [14:37] <phrearch> at least, afaik
# [14:38] <jetienne> would be super nice if a json object would be allowed. last time i looked a w3c api it was string only
# [14:38] <phrearch> trying to create some benchmarking atm, how many websocket requests this twisted server can handle per second
# [14:38] <jetienne> json object would allow typed array so binary
# [14:39] <phrearch> aha, yea that would be nice
# [14:39] <phrearch> you mean, it wouldnt require encoding/decoding anymore on both ends?
# [14:39] <phrearch> wonder if that would fly with python on one end
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# [14:39] <phrearch> hm, around 600-700 roundtrips a second
# [14:40] <phrearch> not sure if thats good or not
# [14:40] <jetienne> i got 23ms ping latency with a server in a town near me
# [14:41] <jetienne> it is like 400 round trip with my low freq brain
# [14:41] <phrearch> this is locally. i mean the number of requests the server is able to handle with all the json and routing stuff
# [14:41] <jetienne> phrearch: use 2 computers it may increase the number
# [14:41] <phrearch> yea already on that. trying another browser now to see if its a clientside bottleneck
# [14:41] <jetienne> http://easywebsocket.org/contrib/monitor/
# [14:42] <jetienne> server in paris, using socket.io backend
# [14:42] <phrearch> nice tool
# [14:42] <phrearch> it stays at around 700 roundtrips max
# [14:43] <jetienne> ouch :)
# [14:43] <jetienne> well it is 23ms for me :)
# [14:43] <jetienne> ah ok misread
# [14:43] <phrearch> nah, not the ping :)
# [14:43] <phrearch> thats when running in cpython
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# [14:43] <jetienne> phrearch: what about 2 tab hitting the same server ?
# [14:43] <phrearch> i thought pypy may be faster
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# [14:45] <phrearch> ill upload the example
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# [15:06] <phrearch> http://hwios.org/my_mod/
# [15:06] <phrearch> chromium/chrome only
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# [16:25] <killfill> hi
# [16:25] <killfill> is there a was to catch up the back button event?
# [16:26] <PeeterWork> onbeforeunload ?
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# [16:27] <killfill> hmm
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# [16:32] <miketaylr> see also, popstate event
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# [16:36] <killfill> i actually wans to prevent the user to quit the pase with the back button, onbeforeunload lets you show an alert so the user decides..
# [16:36] * killfill checking popstate now
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# [16:38] <killfill> popstate seems to work with history.pushState..
# [16:39] <tbranyen> its part of the html5 history api yea
# [16:39] <miketaylr> yep
# [16:39] <killfill> its something definitly ill need to implement, but dont have it right now.. :P
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# [16:55] <killfill> thanks!
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# [18:38] <Wilto> So, say one has a list of article titles—linking out to full articles—each with a publication date. <time pubdate […]> obviously makes sense for the publication date, but isn’t valid unless it’s within an <article>. Show of hands: who thinks a title/link and publication date fit <article>’s informal “something fit for syndication” definition?
# [18:38] <Ms2ger> Well, would you syndicate just the title?
# [18:39] * Parts: shwetank (~emailshwe@122.173.87.139)
# [18:39] <Wilto> I mean, it feels like one of those “well, you can make a case for it” situations, but who ever would?
# [18:42] <Wilto> I suppose if we’re looking to add semantic meaning to the publication date, we’re implying that the title and associated date should be regarded as relevant outside the context of the document. Still.
# [18:45] <materialdesigner> I think it fits <article>
# [18:46] <materialdesigner> you could provide an RSS feed of article titles + pub dates
# [18:46] <materialdesigner> that to me is syndication
# [18:46] <Wilto> Yeah, I’m kind of talking myself into it now, too.
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# [19:10] <paul_irish> "Both services were programmed using the HTML5 Web browser protocol, which gives Walmart and Amazon the ability to reach iPad owners directly without an app that is subject to Apple's mandatory 30 percent cut."
# [19:11] <Ms2ger> <3
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# [19:36] <sic1> paul_irish: any shot chrome beta or dev channel has fixed the 3d transform inspector blue hover bug? I feel as if im going to lose my mind if i cant see that feedback (and most of my projects have 3d transforms). I know the ticket said the issue was dealt with, but man, i was bummed when the last update didnt have it.
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# [19:36] <paul_irish> yes its fixed.
# [19:37] <sic1> oh snap, which channel?
# [19:37] <paul_irish> also the scrolled page blue hover bug is fixed
# [19:37] <paul_irish> probably beta by now
# [19:37] <paul_irish> but i hang in dev all the time
# [19:37] <paul_irish> snap snap
# [19:38] <sic1> i kinda cant...the dev i do is basically a build of the stable chromium
# [19:38] <paul_irish> ew
# [19:38] <paul_irish> why?
# [19:38] <sic1> heh
# [19:38] <sic1> pokki.com
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# [19:38] <sic1> i did livingsocial, groupon, ebay - foursquare to come
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# [19:38] <sic1> more after
# [19:38] <sic1> but - man, I WANT MY BLUE HOVER :)
# [19:39] <sic1> mb ill try beta
# [19:39] <paul_irish> dont use stable chromium. shit doesnt autoupdate
# [19:39] <paul_irish> and i cant trust you, sic1, to update it yo'self
# [19:39] <paul_irish> :)
# [19:39] <sic1> lol
# [19:40] <sic1> well, i have no control over wtf platform they use
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# [19:40] <sic1> all i know is they update as chromium does
# [19:40] <sic1> chrome stable has been my best testbed
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# [19:43] <chrislorenz> paul_irish: Dev has been causing me some weird issues with javascript
# [19:43] <sic1> that damn javascript
# [19:43] <chrislorenz> paul_irish: Jasmine tests pass and fail intermittently… other browsers and other chrome releases seem to be fine
# [19:43] <chrislorenz> QQ
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# [19:55] <paul_irish> ive seen two odd v8 issues recently
# [19:55] <paul_irish> but
# [19:55] <paul_irish> if you can isolate anything chrislorenz id be happy to see it
# [19:56] <chrislorenz> paul_irish : yeah been trying to narrow it down. Will let you know/post an issue
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# [19:59] <iateadonut> i'm wondering if there is any sound manipulation properties for html5 - like have a sound go in, and then come out a higher pitch?
# [20:00] <iateadonut> or to change the pitch of an mp3 file?
# [20:00] <jetienne_> iateadonut: not natively from <audio> but you can use the sound API + dsp.js to produce such effect
# [20:00] <paul_irish> ?b web audio api @ iateadonut
# [20:00] <bot-t> iateadonut, 5 - flash is a very small jquery plugin with customizable settings. I'am using object tag for IE and embed in all other browser. Put your text into the div in case the flash version installed is older ... http://plugins.jquery.com/projects/plugins?page=4&type=52
# [20:00] <paul_irish> WTFFFFFF
# [20:00] <paul_irish> oh b.
# [20:00] <paul_irish> ?g w3 web audio api @ iateadonut
# [20:00] <bot-t> iateadonut, Web Audio API is now available in Chrome from Chris Rogers on 2011 ... - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-audio/2011Feb/0000.html
# [20:01] <paul_irish> worst
# [20:01] <jetienne_> ?g dsp.js
# [20:01] <bot-t> jetienne_, Audio Data API JS Library - MozillaWiki - https://wiki.mozilla.org/Audio_Data_API_JS_Library
# [20:02] <jetienne_> about that how is it compatible with other browsers ?
# [20:02] <nimbu> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-file/tip/webaudio/specification.html
# [20:02] <paul_irish> thx nimbu
# [20:02] <paul_irish> ?g github audiolib.js
# [20:02] <bot-t> paul_irish, jussi-kalliokoski/audiolib.js - GitHub - https://github.com/jussi-kalliokoski/audiolib.js/tree/
# [20:03] <paul_irish> ^ normalizes between chrome and FF's audio shit
# [20:05] <sic1> u guys think its a lot to ask of a user to have to open about:flags and turn on chromes web audio api?
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# [20:15] <iateadonut> thank you very much
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# [20:21] <Aric> sic1: public site or company site?
# [20:21] <sic1> the company i work for does work for pokki
# [20:22] <sic1> pokki.com is providing the technology, we are doing the dev for the 'core pokkis'
# [20:22] <sic1> we, i, same thing :P
# [20:23] <sic1> fun stuff, gonna be awesome once its on xp, vista, and mac
# [20:23] <sic1> ideal development playground
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# [20:30] <BrianBlakely> Anyone have IE7 open?
# [20:31] <BrianBlakely> Or 8 or 9, and can switch into IE7 mode?
# [20:31] <sic1> *gags*
# [20:31] <BrianBlakely> Trying to confirm a fundamental IE7 bug
# [20:31] <sic1> kiiiinda.....
# [20:31] <BrianBlakely> http://jsfiddle.net/aGbDY/
# [20:31] <BrianBlakely> It doesn't look like IE7 has attr selector support for the "for" attribute
# [20:31] <BrianBlakely> But only that attribute!!
# [20:31] <BrianBlakely> Gasp!
# [20:32] <sic1> one sec...
# [20:32] <BrianBlakely> http://jsfiddle.net/aGbDY/1/
# [20:32] <sic1> getting this other system up
# [20:32] <BrianBlakely> The previous link had a bug, use rev 1
# [20:33] <BrianBlakely> So weird
# [20:33] <Aric> BrianBlakely: IETester?
# [20:34] <BrianBlakely> Aric: I have IE7 open (in IE9), personally
# [20:35] <sic1> i got all blue
# [20:35] <sic1> red and blue on chrome
# [20:35] <sic1> all blue on ie7
# [20:35] <sic1> red and blue on 8
# [20:35] <BrianBlakely> sic1: Right… I tested with a bunch of attributes, "for" is the only one which doesn't work
# [20:35] <sic1> interesting
# [20:36] <sic1> wouldnt have thought to ever try that lol
# [20:36] <BrianBlakely> Which is annoying, because that's an incredibly useful attribute to use!
# [20:36] <BrianBlakely> Now, to post these findings on Twitter. Thanks a lot sic1
# [20:36] <sic1> no prob yo
# [20:37] <sic1> @BrianBlakely?
# [20:37] <paul_irish> reallly
# [20:38] <sic1> mmhmmm
# [20:38] <BrianBlakely> sic1: yah
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# [20:40] <nimbu> BrianBlakely: for is not necessary no. is it useful coz you dont need a "parent" selector?
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# [20:41] <BrianBlakely> nimbu: Indeed, if you're marking up a form with an OL or somesuch, you don't need to stick an extra class or ID onto an LI just because a particular label or its associated field has special styling
# [20:42] <BrianBlakely> Attribute selectors in general are most useful for forms IMO
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# [20:42] <nimbu> for sure.
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# [20:45] <sic1> BrianBlakely: well, it looks like u do need to stick that class on there to make it work with ie7 :P
# [20:48] <BrianBlakely> sic1: Yep! :/
# [20:48] <BrianBlakely> blaaaaaahhhh
# [20:49] <sic1> nice try tho!
# [20:50] <BrianBlakely> Very sneaky, sis
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# [21:19] <kurrent> just incase anyone is interested, google's HTML5 Web App Hackathon (san fran) is about to stream live at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpBpv1j_47c
# [21:20] <RLa> looks like i was not the only one who could not get new kindle reader app working yesterday
# [21:20] <RLa> http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/08/11/1815246/Browser-Wars-Redux-This-Time-Its-the-Apps
# [21:21] <RLa> for me, even spoofing UA did not help
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# Session Close: Fri Aug 12 00:00:00 2011

The end :)