/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-08-15 / end

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1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 15 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #html5
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15. # [00:28] <elkng> there will be no need in Flash plugin in html5-able browsers ?
16. # [00:30] <moo-_-> elkng: you still need Flash do deal with legacy websites
17. # [00:30] <moo-_-> elkng: if you have a HTML5 site and a HTML5 browser you don't need Flash
18. # [00:31] <elkng> what about youtube videos ?
19. # [00:32] <danheberden> lol
20. # [00:32] <danheberden> http://www.youtube.com/html5
21. # [00:32] <elkng> can one watch them without Flash plugin, I dont use Flash plugin so I dont have one
22. # [00:33] <danheberden> if only there was a link that someone could share about that
23. # [00:34] <elkng> so only WebM format
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25. # [00:35] <danheberden> except for the part where they have h.264 listed on that page
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27. # [00:36] <elkng> now all books about html4 can be throwed away ?
28. # [00:37] <moo-_-> elkng: no
29. # [00:37] <moo-_-> html5 is superset of html4
30. # [00:37] <danheberden> you didn't hear about the w3c book burning party?
31. # [00:37] <moo-_-> the old knowledge still applies
32. # [00:38] <elkng> is html4 antiqued somehow by html5 ?
33. # [00:38] <tw2113> no
34. # [00:38] <tw2113> a lot of html4 is still valid
35. # [00:39] <moo-_-> elkng: start learning
36. # [00:39] <moo-_-> html5rocks.com
37. # [00:39] <tw2113> in terms of markup, html5 added new tags and simplified others
38. # [00:39] <tw2113> but some legacy parts were depreciated
39. # [00:39] <elkng> "HTML5 by Bruce Laweson & Remy Sharp" <- is it worth to read ?
40. # [00:39] <danheberden> and from a dom perspective adding more api's and properties
41. # [00:39] <danheberden> *added
42. # [00:39] <tw2113> Introducing HTML5 by them two? yes
43. # [00:40] <tw2113> they have a 2nd edition coming out this fall
44. # [00:40] <elkng> are they good authors ?
45. # [00:40] <danheberden> elkng it's like, css3 shit is cool but you still use selectors that were spec'd out and designed in the css2 spec
46. # [00:40] <tw2113> i trust their knowledge, and i know others do too
47. # [00:40] <tw2113> lawson works for Opera
48. # [00:41] <tw2113> and is part of html5doctors
49. # [00:41] <danheberden> elkng remy sharp made html5demos.com
50. # [00:41] <andrewjbaker> elkng, read the book and form your own opinion.
51. # [00:41] <danheberden> if you want an idea of his abilities
52. # [00:41] <tw2113> remy also runs jsbin.com
53. # [00:41] <danheberden> and used to be a jq team member: http://jquery.org/team
54. # [00:42] <danheberden> also, soft hands
55. # [00:42] <danheberden> probably moisturizes
56. # [00:42] <tw2113> remy has his own backed conference
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105. # [02:32] <murphy> Hi all
106. # [02:32] <murphy> good mrning
107. # [02:32] <murphy> morning
108. # [02:32] <murphy> who can help me?
109. # [02:32] <murphy> anybody?
110. # [02:33] <andrewjbaker> t
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112. # [02:33] <andrewjbaker> That largely depends on the question, I guess.
113. # [02:33] <andrewjbaker> Just fire away...
114. # [02:34] <murphy> ok, my issue is how to develop this application: http://www.sevilla111.com/default_en.htm
115. # [02:34] <murphy> andrewjbaker: if you know, please tell me
116. # [02:34] <murphy> use html5
117. # [02:35] <andrewjbaker> Develop it further?
118. # [02:35] <murphy> can somebody give me a demo
119. # [02:35] <andrewjbaker> Or use HTML5 to develop something similar?
120. # [02:35] <murphy> yes
121. # [02:35] <murphy> you are right
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124. # [02:36] <murphy> I think use HTML5 to develop something similar.
125. # [02:36] <andrewjbaker> It appears to be 360-degree panoramic image.
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130. # [02:37] <murphy> andrewjbaker: you are right
131. # [02:38] <murphy> andrewjbaker: if you can do a 180-degree demo, I think it is ok for me use Html5
132. # [02:38] <andrewjbaker> You can. But...
133. # [02:39] <murphy> andrewjbaker: what?
134. # [02:39] <andrewjbaker> I personally wouldn't bother w/ canvas.
135. # [02:39] <andrewjbaker> I'd just use CSS, I think.
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138. # [02:41] <murphy> andrewjbaker: http://urbanhonking.com/ideasfordozens/2010/09/29/360_degree_interactive_camera/
139. # [02:42] <andrewjbaker> murphy, give this a try: http://jquery.vostrel.cz/reel
140. # [02:42] <murphy> andrewjbaker: thanks
141. # [02:43] <murphy> andrewjbaker: Good, this is my want. thanks very much
142. # [02:44] <andrewjbaker> You're welcome dude. Might wanna' thank the author if you end up using it too. ;-)
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157. # [03:04] <andrewjbaker> I know I ask this often... but that's cos' I'm like a parrot... any HTML5 game devs on?^^
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160. # [03:07] <andrewjbaker> Ah, here's one. Hi OzDave_mbp.
161. # [03:07] <OzDave_mbp> hey m8 whats new?
162. # [03:07] <andrewjbaker> "<andrewjbaker> I know I ask this often... but that's cos' I'm like a parrot... any HTML5 game devs on?^^"
163. # [03:08] <andrewjbaker> Not much HTML5-wise; just been focusing on the back-end for Fleeting Fantasy. You?
164. # [03:09] <OzDave_mbp> nothing new to add :)
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166. # [03:09] <andrewjbaker> You disappoint me. :-p
167. # [03:09] <OzDave_mbp> lol
168. # [03:10] <andrewjbaker> The Gods of HTML5 will not be happy w/ you. ;-)
169. # [03:10] <OzDave_mbp> hehe I was compiling a thing called life
170. # [03:11] <andrewjbaker> Conway's?
171. # [03:11] <materialdesigner> what are the development dependencies of this thing called life?
172. # [03:12] <OzDave_mbp> food.lib outside.lib and you actually have to interact with waterbags who move around and say stuff
173. # [03:12] <OzDave_mbp> the shaders look awesome btw
174. # [03:13] <materialdesigner> laundry.lib
175. # [03:13] <OzDave_mbp> oops
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177. # [03:14] <andrewjbaker> WB jetienne.
178. # [03:15] <paul_irish> AJB. sup
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181. # [03:15] <andrewjbaker> Hey paul_irish. Good dude, ta. Yourself?
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183. # [03:16] <paul_irish> researching the history of XHR
184. # [03:16] <andrewjbaker> With a view to determine the original design decisions?
185. # [03:16] <paul_irish> no just seeing who made and for what
186. # [03:17] <paul_irish> http://blogs.technet.com/b/exchange/archive/2005/06/21/406646.aspx btw
187. # [03:17] * andrewjbaker looks...
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189. # [03:18] <andrewjbaker> "We also developed a Java applet for the date picker control in the calendar view" <- LOL.
190. # [03:19] <paul_irish> andrewjbaker: thats a lot of heightmaps
191. # [03:19] <andrewjbaker> paul_irish, ha, ha, no shit. :-p
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193. # [03:20] <andrewjbaker> "XMLHTTP was not just a self serving effort. We knew that eventually this component would be discovered and used by other web developers that wanted to build rich applications but we just didn't know when they would discover it." <- :-(
194. # [03:20] <andrewjbaker> Imagine if they'd promoted it earlier...
195. # [03:20] <paul_irish> asses.
196. # [03:20] <paul_irish> :)
197. # [03:20] <andrewjbaker> ^^
198. # [03:22] <andrewjbaker> So, in some bizarre way, we actually have Outlook to thank for AJAX et al.
199. # [03:22] * andrewjbaker is depressed.^^
200. # [03:25] <andrewjbaker> That said, I can't disagree w/... "The OWA team today is one of the most talented in its history." Assuming talent == foresight.
201. # [03:28] <andrewjbaker> Have you found any gems paul_irish? Anything that could be incorporated into future versions of the HTML spec? HTML5.next...
202. # [03:28] <andrewjbaker> *HTML.next^^
203. # [03:29] <andrewjbaker> Maybe some blind alleys...
204. # [03:31] <paul_irish> wat
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208. # [03:32] <andrewjbaker> paul_irish, have come across anything that they may have tossed aside but in hindsight could be actually quite beneficial?
209. # [03:33] <paul_irish> old stuff?
210. # [03:33] <paul_irish> yes actually
211. # [03:33] <paul_irish> i have
212. # [03:33] <paul_irish> i am talking about it on tuesday
213. # [03:33] <paul_irish> if you're in SF you can come to the talk at twitter HQ
214. # [03:33] <paul_irish> :)
215. # [03:33] <paul_irish> otherwise you must wait for the video
216. # [03:34] <andrewjbaker> LOL... sadly not. I'll wait for the video. ;-)
217. # [03:34] <andrewjbaker> Will it make it in here? http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/next :-p
218. # [03:34] <paul_irish> no man its already IN
219. # [03:34] <paul_irish> BUT NOBODY KNOWSSSS
220. # [03:34] <andrewjbaker> :-D
221. # [03:34] <paul_irish> :O
222. # [03:34] <andrewjbaker> LMAO.
223. # [03:35] * andrewjbaker casts the spell of silence on himself.
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227. # [03:36] <paul_irish> gtg bye
228. # [03:37] <andrewjbaker> \o-
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230. # [03:38] <andrewjbaker> Right then peeps... question time. Why is adoption of HTML5 so slooooow? With especial regard to games dev...
231. # [03:39] <materialdesigner> is it?
232. # [03:39] <materialdesigner> canvas seems to be quickly adopted
233. # [03:40] <andrewjbaker> Hmm...
234. # [03:40] <andrewjbaker> It might be quickly adopted, but I don't see a shit-ton of games coming out using it.
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236. # [03:41] <materialdesigner> games take time
237. # [03:41] <andrewjbaker> Ha, LOL... tell me about it. ;-)
238. # [03:43] <andrewjbaker> Joking aside... "games take time" <- But they naturally follow demos and engines, so hopefully they're coming soon...
239. # [03:44] * andrewjbaker wants to see more actual games and Web apps using HTML5.
240. # [03:45] <materialdesigner> I'd say there are a ton
241. # [03:46] <andrewjbaker> OK... that's my fault.
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243. # [03:46] <andrewjbaker> More actual PERSISTENT games and Web apps using HTML5.
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245. # [03:47] <andrewjbaker> "<andrewjbaker> OK... that's my fault.
246. # [03:47] <andrewjbaker> * materialdesigner has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
247. # [03:47] <andrewjbaker> <andrewjbaker> More actual PERSISTENT games and Web apps using HTML5."
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249. # [03:48] <andrewjbaker> Given my background, I generally tend to think of games as having a persistent element.
250. # [03:48] <andrewjbaker> So you keep going back.
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252. # [03:52] <andrewjbaker> I don't see a lot of PERSISTENT browser-based HTML5 games flooding the marketplace.
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257. # [04:01] <andrewjbaker> If anyone nips on and they're developing an HTML5 game, could they please funnel 'em my way? @andrew_j_baker2 I'll be indebted. ;-)
258. # [04:01] <andrewjbaker> Or send 'em over to #bbg.
259. # [04:02] <andrewjbaker> Not wishing to poach... just build an HTML5 games dev community.
260. # [04:02] <andrewjbaker> Put like-minded folk in touch.
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381. # [09:45] <hexa_> any ant script gurus?
382. # [09:46] <hexa_> trying to tweak the html5 boilerplate build script
383. # [09:46] <hexa_> it's pretty hardcore
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445. # [13:35] <jetienne> what are the rules about the domain for postmessage on iframe ? if the main page and the iframe are on the same domain, is that ok to do postmessage ?
446. # [13:36] <jetienne> is there a case where the parent window can actually run javascript in the child window, would postmessage ? (all pages are mine on the same domain here)
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534. # [16:09] <Jon47> does anybody know if there are performance implications of having really high z-indexes?
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536. # [16:10] <Jon47> i notice these guys that I work with tend to bump the z-index by increments of 100 or 1000 even, I can see why it makes sense to leave room but I'm wondering if there's any reason not to leave *so* much room
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541. # [16:11] <nimbu> you dont need high z-indexes
542. # [16:11] <Ali-> z-index: 8297340129478931274093127472389749;
543. # [16:11] <Ali-> \o/
544. # [16:11] <Jon47> heh
545. # [16:11] <Jon47> i wonder if it's got some upper bound ..
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551. # [16:16] <nimbu> the upper-bound would be decided by the css parser what number type it uses
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554. # [16:19] <Jon47> yeah I was looking around to see if there's anything on the internets about that, MDN and other sources just say it's "represented" as a signed integer, and I just bumped it past 32768 successfully in chrome and ff5, so I'm guessing it's a bigint and practically has no bound
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556. # [16:21] <nimbu> yeah it changed in opera too recently.
557. # [16:22] <nimbu> i am suspecting all browsers use long int now.
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564. # [16:37] <Ms2ger> I assume Gecko uses 32 bits
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597. # [17:34] <paul_irish> hexa__: sup
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612. # [17:56] <paul_irish> this is pretty dope https://rniwa.com/2011-08-14/apple-style-span-is-gone/
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627. # [18:09] * danbeam|denver is now known as danbeam
628. # [18:13] <danbeam> anybody have a recommendation for a CSS compressor other than YUI compressor?
629. # [18:14] <danheberden> there's css tidy
630. # [18:14] <tw2113> your keyboard?
631. # [18:14] <danbeam> tw2113: hehe
632. # [18:14] <tw2113> i kid i kid, though that would be an option
633. # [18:14] <danbeam> danheberden: yeah, that's a good one
634. # [18:15] <tw2113> outsource to india
635. # [18:15] <danbeam> :|
636. # [18:15] <tw2113> "i need my css compressed, go through and delete the spaces. 2 rupee!"
637. # [18:15] <tw2113> now i'm getting stereotypical, i'm sorry
638. # [18:15] <nimbu> whats wrong with YUI Compressor danbeam
639. # [18:16] <danbeam> nimbu: nothing, it's pretty good and safe
640. # [18:16] <tw2113> he doesn't work for yahoo anymore
641. # [18:16] <danbeam> tw2113: hehe, no
642. # [18:16] <danbeam> nimbu: I might end up using it
643. # [18:16] <danbeam> nimbu: it doesn't do quite a few sub-optimizations, though
644. # [18:16] <nimbu> o i c
645. # [18:16] <danbeam> nimbu: but nor do most CSS compressors
646. # [18:17] <danbeam> nimbu: until recently if I had named something id="aabbcc" it would've minified #aabbcc{} to #abc{} as well, lol
647. # [18:17] <nimbu> ohh :|
648. # [18:17] <danbeam> but it's still good (Reid Burke fixed that, pretty sure)
649. # [18:18] * tw2113 threatens danbeam's css with his keyboard, saying if their spaces don't turn into &nbsp;, they're in for a world of hurt
650. # [18:18] <Emperorlou> lol
651. # [18:18] <danbeam> tw2113: I don't need a CSS expander, bro
652. # [18:19] <tw2113> well excuuuuuuuuuuse me </stevemartin>
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655. # [18:24] <bhavesh> I detect color of each pixel using HTML 5 canvas method, it gives the color of transparent pixel as #000000 which is black. so how do i detect if it is transparent?
656. # [18:25] <tw2113> danbeam do you have an explanation for this? http://hipsteripsum.me/
657. # [18:25] <Ms2ger> bhavesh, how are you detecting the color?
658. # [18:25] <bhavesh> imageData API
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660. # [18:26] <Ms2ger> Then get the fourth element of the array
661. # [18:26] <bhavesh> Ms2ger, is iit something like imgDat[4] == opacity then ?
662. # [18:26] <Ms2ger> Yep
663. # [18:27] <Ms2ger> Well, imgData[3]
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665. # [18:27] <bhavesh> yea it starts from 0
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682. # [18:47] <danbeam> tw2113: haven't seen hipster ipsum before, but doesn't make a ton of sense when I read it but I get what they're trying to do
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684. # [18:49] <tw2113> as if any of the other ipsum generators make sense
685. # [18:49] <tw2113> at least we expect hipsters to be that way :D
686. # [18:49] <BrianBlakely> I've found my new XKCD password: sapiente cosby sweater helvetica
687. # [18:50] * Parts: nerdfiles1 (~Adium@50.15.191.220)
688. # [18:51] <tw2113> i didn't completely get that comic...i'm guessing he's saying that the single word with randomly switched out characters is still too easy for computers to guess?
689. # [18:51] <tw2113> while common words with spaces makes it that much more difficult?
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691. # [18:52] <moshee> tw2113, it's just more characters to guess
692. # [18:52] <moshee> and much easier to remember
693. # [18:52] <tw2113> "this is my password"
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695. # [18:54] <BrianBlakely> tw2113: Exactly. That is more difficult to programmatically crack than "!#*$DN283k"
696. # [18:55] <moshee> using a bruteforce method
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698. # [18:55] <moshee> if you have a special algorithm looking for concat'd regular words then it'll be easy to guess
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701. # [18:56] <BrianBlakely> But to be honest, who programmatically cracks passwords anymore? All the security breaches I see are a result of phishing.
702. # [18:56] <nimbu> "please give your password to save the starving children in ethiopia!"
703. # [18:56] <BrianBlakely> Or viruses
704. # [18:56] <moshee> best way is to don't do stupid things I guess
705. # [18:56] <BrianBlakely> nimbu: :P
706. # [18:57] <BrianBlakely> moshee: That's asking a lot from stupid people
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708. # [18:57] <moshee> well they deserve to get their passwords stolen >:(
709. # [18:59] <tw2113> hey nimbu what's your password?
710. # [19:00] <BrianBlakely> moshee: haha, perhaps, but I don't deserve to get random and highly suspect IMs and emails from them ;)
711. # [19:00] <tw2113> just trying out the direct and upfront approach
712. # [19:00] <nimbu> 12345
713. # [19:00] <moshee> I see asterisks!
714. # [19:00] * tw2113 scampers off
715. # [19:00] <tw2113> er i mean, yeah, asterisks
716. # [19:02] <BrianBlakely> nimbu: Do you think WebRTC will hit Opera this year?
717. # [19:03] <nimbu> well it is driven by Opera a lot :)
718. # [19:03] <nimbu> Rich Tibbett works for Opera.
719. # [19:03] <nimbu> so…
720. # [19:03] <BrianBlakely> Yeah, totally
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722. # [19:04] <nimbu> yeah we already have a getUserMedia implementation snapshot and its high priority.
723. # [19:05] <tw2113> oh the good browsers....working together
724. # [19:05] <tw2113> *cough* not IE or safari *cough cough*
725. # [19:05] <tw2113> damn cold
726. # [19:05] <BrianBlakely> nimbu: Awesome, I'd be thrilled to see Opera first to hit with camera and RTC
727. # [19:05] <nimbu> :)
728. # [19:06] <BrianBlakely> It's a BFD
729. # [19:06] <nimbu> i will be too BrianBlakely
730. # [19:06] <BrianBlakely> I'm kind of sad to see Mozilla's Rainbow fading away… such a cool (coolest?) logo: http://i.imgur.com/IKnTJ.png
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748. # [19:37] <trololollololoo> trolol
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750. # [19:39] <trololollololoo> troooolololol ->
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759. # [19:46] * ericduran is now known as ericduran|afk
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762. # [19:50] <bhavesh> what are the possible values for imgDat[3] what does it return ?
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765. # [19:53] <tw2113> if it's like other alpha channel things I've seen, probably something between 00 and FF, bhavesh
766. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> bhavesh, int in [0,255]
767. # [19:54] <tw2113> or what Ms2ger said
768. # [19:54] <tw2113> going with rgb over hex
769. # [19:54] <bhavesh> I am so stupid
770. # [19:54] <tw2113> no, just learning
771. # [19:54] <bhavesh> I tried imgDat[3] like 12 times it was imgDat.data[3]
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773. # [19:55] <tw2113> sounds like a mistake i'd make too
774. # [19:56] <BrianBlakely> http://www.wait-till-i.com/2011/08/15/getting-rusty-we-need-new-best-practices-for-a-different-development-world/
775. # [19:56] <BrianBlakely> This is very interesting
776. # [19:56] <BrianBlakely> I think the entire premise is confused, however
777. # [19:57] <BrianBlakely> What Christian is REALLY concerned about is that JavaScript is doing some things that HTML would have been used for (e.g. Canvas) and CSS is doing things that JavaScript would have been used for (pseudo-stuff, animation)
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784. # [20:10] <BrianBlakely> I continue to speak out about the problem with pen-holders' love affair with WebGL: it delivers 3D content by completely cutting HTML and CSS out of the loop. It works only insofar as a Flash-only site can work… actually, less-so in some regards.
785. # [20:10] <BrianBlakely> Thus concludes my presentation
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793. # [20:23] <monteslu> anyone ever have image.src = data:image/blah_blah actually try and do an http request on that image source?
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796. # [20:29] <paul_irish> monteslu: what?
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803. # [20:33] <tantek> paul_irish, I think monteslu means, imagine a page at example.com with <image src="data:image/blah"/> - ever seen requests for http://example.com/data:image/blah
804. # [20:33] <monteslu> right
805. # [20:33] <monteslu> I'm comparing strings right now to make sure it's always the same
806. # [20:33] <paul_irish> o
807. # [20:33] <tantek> by say, a browser/crawler that is only looking for say "http:" and otherwise prepending the domain etc.
808. # [20:34] <paul_irish> i believe even IE6,7 will not make a request if it starts with data: because it considers it a different scheme
809. # [20:34] <monteslu> its actually happening in chrome15
810. # [20:34] <tantek> lol
811. # [20:34] <paul_irish> come onnnnnn
812. # [20:34] <tantek> monteslu - URL / source?
813. # [20:34] <paul_irish> monteslu: you are full of lies.
814. # [20:34] <monteslu> well, could be my code, that's why i asked :)
815. # [20:34] <monteslu> hahah
816. # [20:34] <monteslu> I'll try and reproduce on jsfiddle
817. # [20:34] <paul_irish> the data uris will show up in network (and resources)
818. # [20:35] <paul_irish> in devtools
819. # [20:35] <paul_irish> but.. thats just for consistency
820. # [20:35] <tantek> check to make sure perhaps that it isn't data;image for example
821. # [20:35] <tantek> ;)
822. # [20:35] <paul_irish> you wont see example.com/data:image/a;lsdkjf4384/ requested and 404
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825. # [20:39] <kevva> y0 paul_irish, i think something went wrong in some of the last commits in the html5 boilerplate regarding the js concat
826. # [20:39] <kevva> think it's the spaces in the comments
827. # [20:41] <kevva> they don't concat anymoaar
828. # [20:41] <paul_irish> orly
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830. # [20:41] <paul_irish> you mean the commits 30min ago?
831. # [20:42] <kevva> dunno, which one. the one where you added spaces to the comments
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833. # [20:42] <monteslu> ok, i think the data url problem is in my gfx abstraction layer. May be time to just dump other renderers and force people to use browsers with canvas
834. # [20:43] <paul_irish> kevva: wow this was the quickest bug report ever :)
835. # [20:43] * tw2113 gives kevva a badge award
836. # [20:44] <nimbu> o glad paul_irish took care of you kevva
837. # [20:44] <nimbu> OR HAVE YOU
838. # [20:44] <paul_irish> ?slap nimbu
839. # [20:44] * bot-t1 slaps nimbu around a bit with a large trout
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841. # [20:44] <nimbu> hey it was a srs q
842. # [20:44] <kevva> tyty, i noticed it when i implemented the latest changes to my wp boilerplate
843. # [20:44] <paul_irish> SERIOUS PEOPLE DONT ASK SERIOUS QUESTIONS IN CAPS
844. # [20:45] <nimbu> only when they mask their intentions with sarcasm!
845. # [20:45] <nimbu> kevva can you submit a ticket https://github.com/paulirish/html5-boilerplate/issues
846. # [20:45] <tw2113> Error: end </sarcasm> missing
847. # [20:45] <nimbu> and output whats the error you get.
848. # [20:46] <nimbu> errr rather paste the error that you get
849. # [20:46] <kevva> hehe
850. # [20:46] <kevva> well, the build script isn't giving me any errors from what i can see
851. # [20:46] <nimbu> o
852. # [20:48] <paul_irish> hmm wonder why this isnt working
853. # [20:48] <paul_irish> OR IS IT
854. # [20:49] <kevva> ok
855. # [20:49] <kevva> you need to add a space
856. # [20:50] <kevva> scripts)) --&gt;
857. # [20:50] <paul_irish> o
858. # [20:50] <kevva> right now it's s"cripts)) -&gt;"
859. # [20:50] <paul_irish> yes thats it.
860. # [20:50] <kevva> lol, my keyboard skills
861. # [20:50] <paul_irish> ♥ kevva
862. # [20:50] <kevva> ye np
863. # [20:50] <paul_irish> i'll do some \s? actually
864. # [20:50] <paul_irish> butya
865. # [20:52] <kevva> also wondering why we need special prefixes for css and js in project.properties when it works to add them directly in your references
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868. # [20:52] <nimbu> whatumean special prefixes
869. # [20:52] <kevva> for php and so on
870. # [20:52] <paul_irish> ummmm
871. # [20:52] <kevva> recently added, yesterday or something
872. # [20:52] <nimbu> o
873. # [20:53] <paul_irish> https://github.com/paulirish/html5-boilerplate/pull/685
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875. # [20:53] <nimbu> o k
876. # [20:54] <kevva> hmm
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879. # [20:57] <kevva> whats the downside of adding your prefixes directly in your references then?
880. # [20:58] <kevva> yes, you needed to do some tweaking in build.xml before, but that's fixed since v2.0
881. # [20:58] <paul_irish> kevva: https://github.com/paulirish/html5-boilerplate/commit/c4ef2f3810eb0d984748e240f4d32c97483c6db8
882. # [20:58] <socialhapy> http://bit.ly/paDrCR paulirish (1 minute ago) on html5-boilerplate: build script: tweak script replacement regex for whitespace. Thank You @kevva !
883. # [20:58] <socialhapy> @kevva wins the award for fastest bug report. 118 minutes after a bug was committed,
884. # [20:58] <socialhapy> he reported it in #html5. And then I was a dunce and couldn't identify the fix
885. # [20:58] <socialhapy> and so he provided that too.
886. # [20:58] <socialhapy> Not a trivial bug either.
887. # [20:58] <socialhapy> Best bug reporter ever. :D
888. # [20:58] <socialhapy> --
889. # [20:58] <socialhapy> This is a fix for https://github.com/paulirish/html5-boilerplate/compare/2fb6ac3369...bf52178981#L2R62
890. # [20:58] <paul_irish> WELL HELLO socialhapy
891. # [20:59] <paul_irish> (sry about that)
892. # [21:00] <kevva> getting really upset right now
893. # [21:00] <kevva> all this highlight
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895. # [21:02] <paul_irish> i hope so.
896. # [21:02] <paul_irish> kevva: tbh i am not sure about the prefixes as i havent run into that myself.
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898. # [21:02] <paul_irish> :/
899. # [21:03] <kevva> well, im sure there were bugs before. but i've dealt with em by adding the prefixes directly in build.xml.
900. # [21:04] <kevva> but im sure there is ppl that might prefer to add prefixes in project.properties instead of the template files so it makes sense to have it
901. # [21:04] <kevva> there ARE
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907. # [21:26] * paul_irish researches quirks mode some more...
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911. # [21:42] <danielfilho> neat: https://github.com/blog/905-edit-like-an-ace
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923. # [21:59] <Ms2ger> paul_irish, quirks mode is a sad failure. What are you researching about it? :)
924. # [22:02] <tw2113> exploits so he can get modernizr on more sites
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931. # [22:11] <paul_irish> Ms2ger: i want to know when switching between quirks and standards mode was introduced.
932. # [22:11] <Ms2ger> IE...
933. # [22:11] <paul_irish> Ms2ger: i think i found an email when Todd Farhner prposed the idea for NGLayout
934. # [22:11] <Ms2ger> 5? 6?
935. # [22:11] <paul_irish> but now looking in msft materials
936. # [22:11] <paul_irish> but yeah.. 5, 5.5 or 6
937. # [22:12] <Ms2ger> hsivonen could probably tell you up to the minute, but he's away
938. # [22:12] <paul_irish> ah okay
939. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1312
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941. # [22:14] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
942. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> I'll also cover nonstandard technologies, such as XMLHttpRequest and rich text editing, that Mozilla does support because no W3C equivalent existed at the time. They include:
943. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.0 and XHTML 1.1
944. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> paul_irish, do you read that the same way I do? :)
945. # [22:15] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-121-23.dynamic.hinet.net)
946. # [22:16] <paul_irish> Ms2ger: where does it say that
947. # [22:17] <Ms2ger> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/migrate_apps_from_internet_explorer_to_mozilla
948. # [22:18] <paul_irish> its very unclear what "they" in "they include" refers to.. :/
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950. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I was wondering why no W3C equivalent to HTML4 existed
951. # [22:20] <paul_irish> :)
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955. # [22:20] <paul_irish> ugh .. an Almost standards mode should never have been made
956. # [22:20] <paul_irish> that one little bug wasnt worth it
957. # [22:20] <paul_irish> ooohwell
958. # [22:21] <moo-_-> 99% angel
959. # [22:21] <moo-_-> 1% bitch
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963. # [22:27] <BrianBlakely> Weird how there never seem to be MSFT people in here
964. # [22:28] * Joins: sasori (~sasori@acl1-719bts.gw.smartbro.net)
965. # [22:30] <moo-_-> is IRC allowd from MS network?
966. # [22:30] <tw2113> they probably have their own IRC room for html5
967. # [22:30] <tw2113> on their private network
968. # [22:30] <moo-_-> maybe they are using Live Messenger
969. # [22:30] <peol> paul_irish: hahaha, sorry about that, i should probably do something about multiline/long commit messages :D
970. # [22:30] <tw2113> that they have to log into with their employee ID
971. # [22:30] <paul_irish> .tweet paul_irish
972. # [22:30] <socialhapy> http://bit.ly/qiT8sj @paul_irish: @CarterRabasa is there an IE homeboy who could hang and answer question in #html5 on freenode? would that be you? people want knowledge! :)
973. # [22:30] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: ^
974. # [22:32] <moo-_-> I can consult MS how to IRC if needed
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976. # [22:32] <BrianBlakely> *explode*
977. # [22:32] <moo-_-> we have clients for Windows, too
978. # [22:32] <paul_irish> Ms2ger: looks like it was introduced in ie6
979. # [22:33] <paul_irish> which makes sense because 5.5 was the death of the box model bug
980. # [22:33] <BrianBlakely> Question 1: Why wait 12 months between feature releases? IE9 could do with some grad support...
981. # [22:33] <paul_irish> er 6 was.
982. # [22:33] <BrianBlakely> Question 2: I've been using WebGL for a while now and I haven't been hacked. IE10 plz?
983. # [22:34] <Ms2ger> paul_irish, yeah, sounds right
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985. # [22:35] <moo-_-> BrianBlakely: it's ten years too early to ask for that ^_^
986. # [22:36] <BrianBlakely> moo-_-: Cue early-life ulcer… now.
987. # [22:36] * Joins: tristanseifert (~tristanse@c-67-164-14-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
988. # [22:36] <BrianBlakely> Anyone use a web-based FTP client ever?
989. # [22:37] <BrianBlakely> Trying to replace all my work apps with Chrome...
990. # [22:37] <BrianBlakely> Though I suppose it is impossible to replace Creative Suite...
991. # [22:37] <moo-_-> BrianBlakely: browsers itself have FTP support
992. # [22:37] <moo-_-> or had
993. # [22:37] <moo-_-> at least netscape 4 or so
994. # [22:38] <tw2113> just put ftp:// instead of http://
995. # [22:38] <moo-_-> BrianBlakely: though I seriously suggest you use SCP/SFTP
996. # [22:38] <moo-_-> FTP is like oooold
997. # [22:38] <moo-_-> insecure
998. # [22:38] <moo-_-> and not really should be used today
999. # [22:38] <tw2113> ssh is for the cool kids
1000. # [22:38] <moo-_-> BrianBlakely: listen to tw2113
1001. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> BrianBlakely, yes, fireftp ;)
1002. # [22:38] <BrianBlakely> moo-_-: You're right, I need something which supports SFTP. WebDAV also.. maybe
1003. # [22:38] <paul_irish> i like fireftp
1004. # [22:38] <moo-_-> BrianBlakely: cyberduck on osx
1005. # [22:38] <moo-_-> BrianBlakely: nautilus on linux
1006. # [22:39] <moo-_-> BrianBlakely: winscp on win
1007. # [22:39] <tw2113> +1 for nautilus
1008. # [22:39] <tw2113> it's your file browser + ssh client all at once
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1010. # [22:39] <moo-_-> and it does webdav quite decently
1011. # [22:39] <BrianBlakely> FireFTP is a Firefox extension, hmm. Nothing that's straight-up web?
1012. # [22:40] <moo-_-> BrianBlakely: you would need to use a proxy server/service
1013. # [22:40] <moo-_-> BrianBlakely: which kind of defeats the idea of direct file transfer
1014. # [22:40] <moo-_-> and it would be the same as HTTP upload
1015. # [22:40] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: check the chrome webstore?
1016. # [22:40] * Quits: Taftse (~Taftse@unaffiliated/taftse) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1017. # [22:40] <BrianBlakely> paul_irish: Not yet
1018. # [22:42] <BrianBlakely> Apparently everything up there is directly (and poorly) compared to FireFTP, heh
1019. # [22:43] <BrianBlakely> AnyClient is a Java-based solution
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1021. # [22:45] <paul_irish> nast.
1022. # [22:46] <BrianBlakely> Makes me a bit squeemish
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1024. # [22:50] <timmywil> paul_irish: we're talking about you in jquery-dev
1025. # [22:50] <paul_irish> orly
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1031. # [23:09] <devongovett> anyone here ever had issues where playing audio while an animation is occurring degrades the performance of the animation considerably?
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1034. # [23:09] <monteslu> paul_irish, tantek, chrome is fine. apparently trimming base64 data is bad :)
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1039. # [23:11] <paul_irish> ha
1040. # [23:12] <paul_irish> devongovett: i did on the creativejs tadpoles demo... or maybe the whole damn thing was just slow and in the same runloop
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1042. # [23:12] * JoshManders is now known as JoshM
1043. # [23:13] <devongovett> paul_irish: well in this particular example I'm just playing a short sound effect while animating a dialog box and without the sound it is buttery smooth but with it not so much.
1044. # [23:13] * JoshM is now known as Josh`
1045. # [23:13] <devongovett> kind of annoying
1046. # [23:13] * Josh` is now known as {Josh}
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1058. # [23:20] <paul_irish> CarterRabasa: hey carter :D
1059. # [23:20] <paul_irish> i was gonna ask earlier with IE introduced quirksmode/standards mode switching via the doctype
1060. # [23:20] <paul_irish> but i found out that debuted in ie6.
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1062. # [23:21] <paul_irish> i think someone in here was gonna hassle you about WebGL but that's no fun
1063. # [23:21] <CarterRabasa> ah, good ol' IE6
1064. # [23:21] <paul_irish> or is it
1065. # [23:21] <paul_irish> :)
1066. # [23:21] <CarterRabasa> you know, it's 10th birthday is coming up
1067. # [23:22] <paul_irish> CarterRabasa: you seen the "universal ie6 css" ? you think that's a good approach?
1068. # [23:22] <tantek> paul_irish - that's not quite correct. quirksmode/standards mode debuted in IE5/Mac, before IE6/Windows. ;)
1069. # [23:22] <paul_irish> ah the benefits of having tantek around :)
1070. # [23:22] <CarterRabasa> if anyone should know, it's T
1071. # [23:22] * tantek did implement the first quirksmode/standardsmode switch so he's biased :P
1072. # [23:22] * Quits: timmywil (~timmywil@sec1.epb.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1073. # [23:23] <tantek> aka DOCTYPE switch
1074. # [23:23] <paul_irish> tantek: so that shipped before netscape 6's, right?
1075. # [23:23] <paul_irish> looks like it
1076. # [23:23] <tantek> correct, it was a few weeks or a month before
1077. # [23:23] <CarterRabasa> <be right back>
1078. # [23:24] <tantek> this is reasonably accurate https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac#Internet_Explorer_5_Macintosh_Edition
1079. # [23:24] <tantek> haven't fully nitpicked over all the details
1080. # [23:24] <tantek> but e.g. ship date 2000-03-27
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1082. # [23:25] <tantek> and btw - little known secret, I did pass along my DOCTYPE switching code to the IE6 Windows team so that the switch would be compatible cross-platform (both in terms of what did or did not trigger quirks mode, and which features got flipped)
1083. # [23:26] <paul_irish> ah very cool.
1084. # [23:27] <paul_irish> oh question for you then
1085. # [23:27] <paul_irish> tantek: is this where the idea of having a modal rendering engine by way of doctype originated?
1086. # [23:27] <paul_irish> http://web.archive.org/web/20001009102321/http://www.geocrawler.com/mail/msg.php3?msg_id=1037920&list=123
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1090. # [23:31] <tantek> the idea did come from Todd Fahrner - I believe we were having coffee in Caffe Centro when he first ran it by me as a possible way out of the buggy CSS backcompat mess, it would have been mid 1998 too.
1091. # [23:31] <paul_irish> :) thats cool
1092. # [23:32] * paul_irish finds a pic of Caffe Centro for my slides
1093. # [23:32] <tantek> the general idea of, couldn't you just use a modern DOCTYPE, like HTML4 Strict to say, just do the standards the right way?
1094. # [23:32] <tantek> and my rough response was something like, hey, that could work, let me try coding that.
1095. # [23:32] <paul_irish> wise solution out of that mess.
1096. # [23:32] <tantek> thank paul. as with many things it felt like a bit of a hack.
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1098. # [23:33] <tantek> but we realized we could popularize the "use an HTML4 strict DOCTYPE" with modern web designers and thus have a chance at adoption.
1099. # [23:33] <paul_irish> it worked
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1101. # [23:33] <tantek> the web design community was a bit smaller back then
1102. # [23:33] <tantek> (though even then it seemed quite big)
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1106. # [23:35] <tantek> from what I recall, I was the only one at the time who took Todd's suggestion seriously
1107. # [23:35] <tantek> and once we got it working in beta builds, the idea spread
1108. # [23:35] <CarterRabasa> <back>
1109. # [23:36] <paul_irish>
1110. # [23:36] <paul_irish> btw #html5 ... CarterRabasa is a PM for the IE team at msft.. if you have any burning IE questions fire away :)
1111. # [23:36] <CarterRabasa> Paul - I'd stay away from things like "universal ie6 css", simply because IE10 is removing support for conditional comments
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1113. # [23:37] * tantek gets to say I told you so to everyone he told not to litter their markup with *proprietary* conditional comments, and use filters instead if necessary. But is trying not to be too harsh about it.
1114. # [23:37] <paul_irish> :)
1115. # [23:37] <paul_irish> tbh conditional comments have been really helpful.
1116. # [23:37] <paul_irish> they're just really ugly
1117. # [23:38] <tantek> paul - your approach / use of them has been the most interesting/reasonable to date.
1118. # [23:38] <paul_irish> \o/
1119. # [23:38] <nimbu> tantek: do u like the idea of a "universal ie6 css"
1120. # [23:38] <tantek> to then enable a class name switch - very clever.
1121. # [23:38] <tantek> nimbu are you referring to Andy Clarke's ie6 style sheet?
1122. # [23:38] <nimbu> yes
1123. # [23:39] <paul_irish> CarterRabasa: IE10 will just view it as an HTML comment, ignore it and be on its way though
1124. # [23:39] <tantek> it seems like a reasonable approach
1125. # [23:39] <nimbu> tantek: yes
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1127. # [23:40] <tantek> nimbu - to be clear - http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css - yes
1128. # [23:40] <tantek> it's more polite than unstyled markup
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1130. # [23:41] <nimbu> tantek: yes, but would it not be nice to make it more usable.
1131. # [23:41] <nimbu> than that
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1133. # [23:41] <tantek> more usable how? I think it is reasonable to treat IE6 in a "single stream" way for styling
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1135. # [23:41] <tantek> just like you would a mobile device / handheld
1136. # [23:42] <keithclarkcouk> no CC's in IE10, does that include JScript too? (can't remember if they've gone already)
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1139. # [23:48] <CarterRabasa> [POLL] Given the share of IE6 in most countries (http://www.ie6countdown.com), how does that translate into the share of IE6 on *your* site?
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1145. # [23:54] <paul_irish> keithclarkcouk: good question.. yeah CarterRabasa do you know if conditional compilation will stick around in jScript 10?
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1147. # [23:54] <CarterRabasa> Paul/Keith - looking into it now
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1157. # [23:59] <keithclarkcouk> From experience, MS JScript is usually multiple-purpose (IE, WSH etc.) so I guess it depends if new JScript has an IE only build
1158. # Session Close: Tue Aug 16 00:00:00 2011

The end :)