/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-08-18 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Aug 18 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:47] <monteslu> "Best SMB Practices for Building a Reliable, Durable Mobile Infrastructure" sign up for the webinar...
# [00:47] <monteslu> seems like the best practices are still being sorted out
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# [00:48] <monteslu> how about just telling us some stuff that's working for you, and we'll decide what's "best" for us, otherwise you might come off as pretentious :)
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# [03:15] <paul_irish> check this out in FF 6+ http://demos.eire-media.com/progress/demo.html
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# [03:25] <paul_irish> humph: whats the name of this font?
# [03:25] <paul_irish> like.. if you set ctx.font = ' .... ' would it be 'DejaVuSerif.ttf' ?
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# [03:28] <paul_irish> looks like it
# [03:28] <truppp> http://www.google.com/webfonts/specimen/Jura
# [03:29] <paul_irish> humph: so i did
# [03:29] <paul_irish> var c = $$('canvas')[0].getContext('2d'); c.fillText('omomgogmg', 0, 30); c.font = '20pt DejaVuSerif.ttf'
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# [03:29] <paul_irish> whoops. switch those last two
# [03:30] <paul_irish> and it works fine, so it seems like a race condition.
# [03:30] <paul_irish> i pointed.. that other guy.... to a bug where typekit was wrestling with webkit loading the font a heartbeat later than it seemed to report
# [03:30] <paul_irish> and i bet that's whats going on here
# [03:31] <paul_irish> https://github.com/typekit/webfontloader/issues/26
# [03:31] <socialhapy> ★ Issue #26 on webfontloader, reported by tandara98 (6m, 2w ago): Active firing too early on WebKit browsers
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# [03:34] <brettgoulder> what's the goto JS library for html5 history API? history.js? /cc paul_irish
# [03:35] <materialdesigner> https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/wiki/HTML5-Cross-Browser-Polyfills says History.js
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# [03:37] <brettgoulder> thanks materialdesigner
# [03:37] <materialdesigner> np, paul_irish can fill in if there's been any developments on that front.
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# [03:40] <paul_irish> brettgoulder: i would recomment pjax.js
# [03:41] <paul_irish> materialdesigner: can you add that in there?
# [03:41] <materialdesigner> sure
# [03:41] <brettgoulder> thanks paul_irish
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# [03:44] <materialdesigner> done
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# [03:45] <r3volution11> Oh hi.
# [03:45] <eggsby> Hi r3volution11
# [03:45] <r3volution11> Hi eggsby. I know you.
# [03:46] <materialdesigner> oh hurro :3
# [03:46] <r3volution11> acidjazz, of remorse?
# [03:46] <r3volution11> materialdesigner: i know you too!
# [03:46] <materialdesigner> omg i know you too!
# [03:47] <r3volution11> I see a lot of nicknames in here that remind of ACiD members. Of course they could just be other people using names that are used just as much else where.
# [03:47] <r3volution11> Isn't this awesome though? Us guys, ya know, in another channel?
# [03:47] <r3volution11> I feel.. free.
# [03:47] * tw2113 waves at r3volution11
# [03:48] <materialdesigner> you should join #web
# [03:48] <r3volution11> Not quite surprising yet always comforting: this channel has just about as much activity in it as any other irc channel.
# [03:48] <materialdesigner> it's the 4chan of freenode.net
# [03:48] <r3volution11> I think that's why I have never joined it.
# [03:49] <r3volution11> I feel that the shenanigans of #forrst-chat are enough for me throughout the day.
# [03:49] <materialdesigner> now that I actually get to be in forrst-chat during the day, lol
# [03:50] <r3volution11> Indeed.
# [03:50] <r3volution11> see now I dont know where to talk to your gentleman.
# [03:50] <r3volution11> should I keep it here, or should i go back to #forrst-chat?
# [03:50] <materialdesigner> go back
# [03:50] <r3volution11> It's quite the dilemma.
# [03:50] <materialdesigner> let's leave this chan ontopic
# [03:50] <r3volution11> okily dokily.
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# [03:57] <acidjazz> r3volution11: yea .. well.. the lit group?
# [03:58] <r3volution11> well I just remember your nick truthfully :)
# [03:58] <acidjazz> well lordjazz did most of the art for it
# [03:58] <acidjazz> but i was in it a little and cia
# [03:58] <r3volution11> I was in cia also.
# [03:58] <acidjazz> oh nice
# [03:58] <r3volution11> remorse for a couple months, odelay
# [03:58] <r3volution11> mimic, etc.
# [03:58] <acidjazz> i did this thing in san francisco
# [03:58] <acidjazz> a couple years ago
# [03:59] <acidjazz> you mighta heard of it
# [03:59] <acidjazz> r3volution11: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/12/BUBFUD235.DTL
# [03:59] <acidjazz> i curated a show w/ the work of somms and lordjazz
# [03:59] <r3volution11> I believe I did
# [03:59] <acidjazz> lotta oldschool artists came out of hte woodwork
# [04:00] <acidjazz> blogged it http://ansi.notchill.com/
# [04:00] <acidjazz> yea it was a blast
# [04:00] <r3volution11> definitely recognize the wall displays and everything
# [04:00] <r3volution11> did you join the acid group on facebook?
# [04:00] <acidjazz> yea
# [04:01] <acidjazz> uhm
# [04:01] <acidjazz> well i duno about the group i liked the page
# [04:01] <r3volution11> hah
# [04:01] <r3volution11> radman invited me a couple of weeks ago
# [04:01] <acidjazz> oh yea hteres hte invite
# [04:02] <acidjazz> yea we became good friends w/ the show hes here in cali
# [04:02] <r3volution11> :)
# [04:02] <r3volution11> that's cool
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# [04:03] <acidjazz> the fun was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIHKXCVeLyA
# [04:03] <r3volution11> Haha, sweet.
# [04:03] <acidjazz> using these parallox boards joe grand helped us out w/ we had to keep the fonts and everything on the SD card and load it
# [04:03] <r3volution11> Yea the more I see the more I remember reading about it and everything.
# [04:04] <acidjazz> i guess the idea made it blow up .. ppl came in from all over the world hte line to the gallery wrapped around the block
# [04:04] <r3volution11> Wow
# [04:04] <r3volution11> That's awesome.
# [04:05] <acidjazz> tnx it was def. memorable
# [04:06] <r3volution11> I bet. It's cool seeing people keeping it around. I can't remember the last time I messed with it .
# [04:07] <r3volution11> I like checking out the websites every now and then
# [04:07] <r3volution11> and I still have some old packs on my hd.
# [04:07] <acidjazz> radman def. still tries w/ the demo group stuff he does
# [04:07] <acidjazz> he has meetings in sf i go to every now and then and sometimse recognize someone
# [04:08] <r3volution11> I only ever met a few people in the "scene"
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# [04:09] <humph> paul_irish: aha, interesting
# [04:09] <humph> paul_irish: Pomax and I have been trying to figure this out, it's a pain in the ass
# [04:09] <humph> which 2 lines are you saying to switch?
# [04:10] <paul_irish> i meant to say
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# [04:10] <paul_irish> var c = $$('canvas')[0].getContext('2d'); c.font = '20pt DejaVuSerif.ttf'; c.fillText('omomgogmg', 0, 30);
# [04:11] <paul_irish> but yeah.. based on my own experience writing a webfont watcher.. and the 50k of webfontloader .. i think there is plenty that agrees with "it's a pain in the ass" :)
# [04:11] <Pomax> although the . in the fontname requires the name to be quoted
# [04:11] <humph> yeah, paul mentioned that before
# [04:11] <humph> paul_irish: I just don't get why chrome hates this
# [04:11] <paul_irish> me neither.
# [04:11] <humph> it slides in like butter everywhere else
# [04:11] <paul_irish> like butta
# [04:11] <Pomax> safari also fails on it
# [04:11] <humph> oh?
# [04:11] <Pomax> looks like it's webkit
# [04:12] <humph> damn you webkit
# [04:12] <humph> probably worth a bug
# [04:12] <Pomax> but I'm failing quite miserably trying to reduce it to a "this just breaks" fragment
# [04:12] <acidjazz> paul_irish believe we have some mutual acquaiantances as well
# [04:13] <paul_irish> id believe it.
# [04:13] <acidjazz> i do some work w/ isobar in sf
# [04:13] <paul_irish> oooo cool
# [04:13] <acidjazz> i think you know jared?
# [04:14] <acidjazz> so many ppl come and go i cant remember who mentioned it
# [04:15] <paul_irish> i think i know jared.
# [04:15] <paul_irish> i know Tyler Madison
# [04:15] <acidjazz> ah yea
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# [04:16] <acidjazz> i worked w/ him a bit
# [04:16] <acidjazz> he just went to tribal w/ jared
# [04:16] <r3volution11> Found some of my old ascii work. ah-ha
# [04:16] <acidjazz> r3volution11: url
# [04:16] <r3volution11> http://sixteencolors.net/pack/mimic17/r3v-ogre.asc
# [04:16] <acidjazz> nice shading
# [04:17] <acidjazz> so the guy that runs that site doug came out here from DC for that show and mentioned his site in a tv interview and it got slammed from the traffic w/in 10mins lol
# [04:17] <r3volution11> thanks. i had a few good pieces. i never did get too good though. i think i just got lucky some times.
# [04:17] <r3volution11> Haha, that's great. I wonder where he lives in DC. I'm in Annapolis.
# [04:18] <acidjazz> i think near georgetown i cant remember, nice guy though
# [04:18] <acidjazz> http://sixteencolors.net/pack/ciapak32/AJ-ANSI.LGO lol
# [04:18] <r3volution11> Ah. I wonder if he ever hung out on any local BBS's
# [04:18] <acidjazz> think i was 14 w/ that one..15
# [04:18] <r3volution11> Word :)
# [04:19] <r3volution11> i did some ansi too actually. I wonder how good the search engine is
# [04:19] <acidjazz> it sgood
# [04:19] <acidjazz> he got hte uhm
# [04:19] <acidjazz> whats that code lol
# [04:19] <acidjazz> that ansi readers owuld pick up
# [04:19] <r3volution11> http://sixteencolors.net/pack/rmrs-18/R3V-PIT2.ASC
# [04:19] <r3volution11> I dont know :)
# [04:19] <acidjazz> signature code...
# [04:20] <paul_irish> wow
# [04:20] <paul_irish> http://picturoku.blogspot.com/2011/08/diaries-of-vulnerability.html
# [04:22] <acidjazz> r3volution11: SAUCE!
# [04:22] <acidjazz> SAUCE description lol
# [04:22] <r3volution11> oh yea!
# [04:22] <r3volution11> Yea I remember sauce :)
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# [04:22] <r3volution11> I must have never really contributed my ansi much to the more popular art groups I was in because I can only find one
# [04:22] <r3volution11> heh
# [04:23] <r3volution11> and its just a BBS header
# [04:23] <paul_irish> acidjazz: bros.. can y'all keep it on topic? :)
# [04:23] <paul_irish> we're a focused bunch
# [04:23] <r3volution11> Oh, yea, sorry.
# [04:23] <paul_irish> :)
# [04:23] <acidjazz> lol
# [04:24] <r3volution11> So how about that HTML?
# [04:25] <r3volution11> acidjazz, so I guess you're doing some web development these days?
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# [04:34] <acidjazz> r3volution11: more or less.. doing gigs w/ ad agencys in sf .. pretty fun
# [04:34] <acidjazz> finally got some html5 requests so ive been alot more fun. lots of ios/android stuff too
# [04:35] <r3volution11> Word :)
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# [04:37] <acidjazz> urself?
# [04:38] <acidjazz> are there any canvas physics libraries out there btw
# [04:38] <acidjazz> something similar to box2d
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# [04:38] <acidjazz> be a fun thing to write
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# [04:38] <r3volution11> I'm not much of a developer honestly. Just design and front end.
# [04:38] <daleharvey> paperjs looks nice
# [04:39] <acidjazz> and that uses canvas?
# [04:39] <acidjazz> not svg?
# [04:39] <Pomax> a lot of work went into that
# [04:39] <Pomax> it's essentially a canvas port and extension of Scriptographer.
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# [04:40] <acidjazz> so it is html5 canvas vs projcessing/svg/javascript
# [04:40] <eggsby> yeah, that's canvas acidjazz
# [04:40] <acidjazz> sweet
# [04:40] <eggsby> http://paperjs.org/
# [04:40] <daleharvey> pretty sure I am supposed to be a web dev
# [04:40] <acidjazz> any competitors?
# [04:40] <daleharvey> but for some reason I am spending my time trying to port erlang to android
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# [04:40] <acidjazz> lol erlang
# [04:41] <eggsby> I've been really impressed by d3.js too but that one is svg
# [04:41] <acidjazz> nice
# [04:41] <Pomax> if you need animation, SVG with SMILis not supported by IE atm if I recall correctly
# [04:41] <acidjazz> yea i love svg personally and processing eggsby but this particular project i need to render a crapload of stuff at once
# [04:41] <acidjazz> and i think canvas would be the fastest
# [04:41] <acidjazz> i need animation
# [04:42] <acidjazz> yea this looks legit
# [04:42] <paul_irish> acidjazz: https://github.com/bebraw/jswiki/wiki/Physics-libraries
# [04:42] <eggsby> paper is nice since you can use vector geometry and stuff
# [04:42] <acidjazz> ive been using raphael alot
# [04:43] <Pomax> I love SVG, but it's pretty unsuited as data format, so for large visualisations json + javascript tends to win
# [04:43] <acidjazz> paul_irish: yea this is javascript though
# [04:43] <Pomax> SVG is just too much overhead
# [04:43] <acidjazz> example Pomax
# [04:43] <Pomax> 3000 node undirected graph
# [04:43] <acidjazz> bogs
# [04:43] <Pomax> complete lunacy in SVG
# [04:43] <eggsby> Right, canvas is definitely more performant. serverside rendering of canvas seems interesting if you don't need interactivity/animation
# [04:44] <acidjazz> you just need a cpu/ram requirement popup like the side of game boxes
# [04:44] <acidjazz> problem solved
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# [04:44] <eggsby> Problem solved if you're willing to throw accessibility out the window :p
# [04:45] <eggsby> THIS WEBSITE BEST RENDERED IN NETSCAPE NAVIGATOR.
# [04:45] <acidjazz> http://www.m-i-b.com.ar/letters/en/
# [04:45] <acidjazz> yea i was kiddin :)
# [04:45] <acidjazz> HI WELCOME TO MY SITE PLS CLOSE ALL OTHER WINDOWS KTHX
# [04:45] <eggsby> :)
# [04:45] <acidjazz> stoked on paper tnx
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# [06:22] * tw2113 sings i'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, cause we're all dudes
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# [08:33] <paul_irish> http://iewebgl.com/
# [08:34] <materialdesigner> HA
# [08:34] <tw2113> evening Irsh
# [08:35] <tw2113> Irish*
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# [08:55] <monteslu> iewebgl looks really cool. Who knew the directx-opengl battle would be fought in the browser
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# [14:09] <ex1t> hi
# [14:09] <ex1t> how can i put pixel into (X,Y) position of canvas?
# [14:11] <Ms2ger> var id = cx.createImageData(1, 1); id.data[0] = r; id.data[1] = g; id.data[2] = b; id.data[3] = a; cx.putImageData(id, x, y);
# [14:11] <Ms2ger> I guess
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# [14:16] <ex1t> can i leave RGB[A] (data[3]) empty?
# [14:16] <ex1t> without setting it value?
# [14:18] <ex1t> btw, it doesn't work in my FF
# [14:18] <ex1t> but other example of canvas do
# [14:19] <ex1t> http://pastebin.com/UiXMyT0a
# [14:19] <ex1t> could YOu please check what's wrong?
# [14:20] <Ms2ger> Try id.data[0] = 0xff; id.data[1] = 0xff; id.data[2] = 0x00;
# [14:23] <ex1t> the same
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# [14:25] <Ms2ger> Hmm
# [14:26] <ex1t> Ms2ger, could You please pastebin Your code which works?
# [14:26] <ex1t> maybe i'm doing something wrong
# [14:26] <Ms2ger> I think what you have should work, but it doesn't work for me either
# [14:26] <ex1t> even ctx.fillRect( x, y, 1, 1 ); doesn't work
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# [14:30] <Ms2ger> >.<
# [14:30] <Ms2ger> You do actually need to set id.data[3], if you don't the color is transparent
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# [14:36] <ex1t> what should the value of data[3] be?
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# [14:38] <ex1t> well, i'll try to figure it out myself
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# [14:41] <Ms2ger> 0xff
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# [15:33] <abdullahdiaa> hi everyone
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# [15:34] <dr0id> hey
# [15:36] <abdullahdiaa> really cool HTML5 example "Time Zone"
# [15:36] <abdullahdiaa> http://everytimezone.com/
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# [15:51] <miketaylr> would be even cooler if it didn't just have -webkit- CSS
# [15:51] <miketaylr> (for the 3d stuff)
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# [16:31] <nsisodiya> Hello - Here is a demo of 2x2 Workspace using HTML5 - http://code.narendrasisodiya.com/2x2-workspace-using-html5/
# [16:32] <Pomax> nice. any plans for mouse/touch dragging?
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# [17:18] <elb0w> is http://diveintohtml5.org/ still a good learning resource?
# [17:18] <nimbu> yes
# [17:19] <elb0w> is there better?
# [17:19] <nimbu> that is pretty good.
# [17:19] <jetienne_> elb0w: some are in the topic if you want more
# [17:20] <jetienne_> html5rock for a tutorial section
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# [17:37] <bhavesh> How can I change the pos_x and pos_y of HTML5 canvas context?
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# [17:37] <bhavesh> context.drawImage(img, x, y); how can I change the x and y?
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# [17:39] <Emperorlou> ...
# [17:39] <bhavesh> while runtime...
# [17:39] <nimbu> ?g MDN canvas @ bhavesh
# [17:39] <bot-t> bhavesh, Canvas tutorial - MDN Docs - https://developer.mozilla.org/en/canvas_tutorial
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# [17:40] <bhavesh> ok
# [17:40] <Emperorlou> I think a question like that is more like "how does one program"
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# [17:41] <Emperorlou> you'll need answers to questions like "whats a variable"
# [17:41] <Emperorlou> and "how do I perform math"
# [17:41] <bhavesh> well
# [17:41] <Emperorlou> just seems kinda crazy to start with canvas dev if you're right at the starting line :p
# [17:43] <bhavesh> It was translate() function
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# [17:45] <bhavesh> btw its my second day with HTML5
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# [18:15] <nsisodiya> Hello - Here is a demo of 2x2 Workspace using HTML5 - http://code.narendrasisodiya.com/2x2-workspace-using-html5/ Looking for comments
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# [18:49] <LongBeach> nsisodiya
# [18:49] <LongBeach> cool demo
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# [18:50] <LongBeach> which HTML 5 features are in use in this demo ?
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# [18:51] <Jon47> audio
# [18:51] <Jon47> that looks to be it :/
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# [19:27] <fission6> can someone explain the advanatges to audio tag?
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# [19:29] <gf3> fission6: relative to what?
# [19:29] <fission6> so if a browser supports the tag it gaurantes it can play certain formats?
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# [19:46] <jetienne> i remember a library where you got several items, with some tags, and you get a nice animation for the transition between them , when you change the selected tags... i dont remember the name...
# [19:46] <jetienne> super hard to formulate without the name :(
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# [19:47] <jetienne> does this ring a bell to anyone ?
# [19:47] <nimbu> what do you mean jetienne?
# [19:47] <nimbu> how do you get items with tags O_O
# [19:47] <jetienne> nimbu: i look for this library for a little demo, it has been release like 3-4 months ago. it made the news all over. and now i need it but cant remember the name. so i ask here
# [19:48] <jetienne> nimbu: yep i know this isnt easy to express :)
# [19:48] <jetienne> it was from a 'big guy' released at some js conf
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# [19:49] * jetienne does a super loosy job at explaining it :)
# [19:49] <jetienne> maybe i should do it with css3 transition instead
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# [19:53] <jetienne> what is the browser behavior if css3 isnt supported ? css3 transition is silently ignored ?
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# [19:54] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [19:55] <fission6> how does <audio> support jumping ahead in an audio file
# [19:55] <jetienne> Ms2ger: ok thanks
# [19:56] <jetienne> fission6: badly in practice, super in theory
# [19:56] <fission6> well i mean, what does it send to the server to request PLAY "1 minute into the song"
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# [20:00] <jetienne> fission6: this is very dependaant of the implementation. but you may have a read for the begining of the file, the header with the index info, then a second read to get the actual data
# [20:00] <jetienne> this is how it is done for video at least. no spec here. pure implementation
# [20:01] <jetienne> some implementation may choose to download the whole file :)
# [20:01] <fission6> so how does it tell (the player->browser), amazon cloud front it won't to start streaming mid way into the song
# [20:02] <fission6> is that in a request header or something, saying - hey - lets have you send packets starting at byte whatever
# [20:03] <jetienne> fission6: yep this is the http range stuff
# [20:04] <jetienne> fission6: search for http range request
# [20:04] <fission6> ok thanks
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# [20:07] <SuperNull> so i just added the doctype html to a page.. and now all my CSS width,height attributes seem to not be working is this standard for html5 ? (firefox 6.0)
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# [20:33] <miketaylr> danbeam: ping
# [20:33] <tw2113> yo mike
# [20:33] <miketaylr> hey dude
# [20:34] <miketaylr> danbeam: neverrrrmind. some dead links on the YUI blog, but found what i wanted.
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# [20:48] <BrianBlakely> paul_irish: Do you know if there is a specific reason that the "How Browsers Work" article uses hard-coded counters instead of ::before content?
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# [21:23] <BrianBlakely> This article has an interesting alternative to using Math.round: http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/canvas/performance/#toc-avoid-float
# [21:24] <BrianBlakely> I think I'll be using bitwise operators for rounding from now on!
# [21:24] <BrianBlakely> Though, curiously, Chrome 14's performance is well below Chrome 13's. Why include a beta in the graph?
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# [21:26] <BrianBlakely> Ah, OK, the m14 numbers on the jsperf are appropriately higher than m13 or errantly lower
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# [21:39] <rezoner> I am looking for a cross-browser js event library with mouse wheel support - i've already tried some (like bean or event.js) but they don't normalize events, or support wheel.
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# [21:48] <humph> anyone got chrome on windows and can test a crash bug for me?
# [21:48] * humph needs to know if it happens only on mac
# [21:51] <humph> nvm, confirmed
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# [22:02] <taylorRichie> Hi folks, Is there anyone here that can help me with an Html5 <nav> question?
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# [22:03] <shepazu> taylorRichie: go ahead and ask, we'll help if we can
# [22:03] <taylorRichie> I'm wondering if it's acceptable markup to have <div> within <nav> rather than <UL> <LI>
# [22:03] <taylorRichie> ie... <nav> <div id="capabilities><a href="capabilities.html">Capabilities</a></div></nav>
# [22:04] <taylorRichie> (of course there would be mor ethan just that one link)
# [22:04] <Ms2ger> Sure
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# [22:08] <taylorRichie> Ms2ger: was that toward me :D
# [22:08] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [22:09] <taylorRichie> Thank you sir!
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# [22:22] <taylorRichie> <nav> <div id="nav_capabilities"> <a href="#">Capability</a> <p class="nav_subText">A rundown of our services</p> </div> <div id="nav_capacity"> <a href="#">Capacity</a> <p class="nav_subText">How much can we handle</p> </div> <div id="nav_credibility"> <a href="#">Credibility</a> <p class="nav_subText">The quality of being trustworthy</p> </div> </nav>
# [22:22] <taylorRichie> So this should be completely valid? (if there's a way to paste formatted code... I don't know it)
# [22:24] <Jon47> raylorRichie usually a link to a pastebin or fiddle or something is best
# [22:24] <sic1> use http://jsfiddle.net/ when you need to share code longer than a line.
# [22:24] <sic1> oops, hah yea, there ya go
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# [22:25] <Jon47> same time man
# [22:25] <taylorRichie> Perfect... I will do that.
# [22:26] <taylorRichie> http://jsfiddle.net/x5A3s/
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# [22:27] <Jon47> looks valid to me
# [22:27] <sic1> ^
# [22:27] <sic1> some might argue to use ul li instead of divs there
# [22:28] <materialdesigner> why not use nav>ul>li*3>a+p?
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# [22:28] <sic1> ^
# [22:28] <materialdesigner> or not even a+p, a+something else
# [22:28] <taylorRichie> I plan on having 2 divs for each nav item, the second div will only be visible on roll over. Controlled via Jquery.
# [22:29] <materialdesigner> nav>ul>li*3>div*2
# [22:29] <taylorRichie> I also thought you couldn't use <p> tags on <li's> am I mistaken?
# [22:29] <materialdesigner> you can't, IIRC
# [22:30] <sic1> others might use nested uls
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# [22:30] <Jon47> an li would be another level of depth that's not necessary, nor any more semantic
# [22:30] <materialdesigner> think of how you would present it without jQuery
# [22:30] <materialdesigner> nor any more semantic?
# [22:30] <Jon47> nor would it be any more semantic
# [22:30] <materialdesigner> that seriously looks like a *list* of elements to me
# [22:31] <Jon47> everything in html is a list
# [22:31] <Jon47> a list of nodes
# [22:31] <materialdesigner> that's not at all true
# [22:31] <Jon47> i think it is
# [22:31] <Pomax> technically a tree of nodes. but we can squint and then it's a list
# [22:31] <sic1> it all depends on what ur doin, but those extra wrappers allow for better styling possibilities
# [22:32] <taylorRichie> I tend to have an easier time manipulating divs than UL's which is why I chose Divs...
# [22:32] <sic1> i hear ya
# [22:32] <materialdesigner> easier time manipulating divs than uls?
# [22:32] <materialdesigner> if you reset or normalize, they are the same blank canvas
# [22:32] <Jon47> unless there's a compelling reason, i think a shallower, slimmer DOM is always a good idea
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# [22:33] <sic1> agreed
# [22:33] <materialdesigner> …semantics is the compelling reason
# [22:33] <Jon47> you'll have to explain to me why making that a list is more semantic
# [22:33] <materialdesigner> because it is a list
# [22:34] <Jon47> it is a list because —> it is a list becaus...
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# [22:34] <Jon47> a sentence is a list of words, do you want to put all your sentences in ul tags also?
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# [22:34] <sic1> litter and...littering and...
# [22:34] <materialdesigner> "A set of items considered as being in the same category or having a particular order of priority"
# [22:35] <Jon47> that doesn't do it for me, everybody's gotta draw the line somewhere, i choose to not use "li" for nav stuff, i'm not saying it's what you gotta do
# [22:35] <Pomax> with the added distinction that if you use ul, you are saying "these are all similar things, within the same context, but they have no specific order"
# [22:36] <materialdesigner> ^
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# [22:36] <materialdesigner> including things in the same wrapper only gives incidental semantics
# [22:36] <materialdesigner> but these aren't incidentally related
# [22:36] <Pomax> so ul+li = a collection of similar things, to be styled however you like. because CSS.
# [22:36] <materialdesigner> they are directly related
# [22:36] <Pomax> it's a conceptual "bag of the same things".
# [22:36] <Jon47> they're all in the "nav", that's enough for me
# [22:36] <Pomax> ol+li = a 1,2,3 or a,b,c or ... listing.
# [22:36] <materialdesigner> simply including things next to each other doesn't formalize their relationship
# [22:36] <Pomax> although again, you control the CSS so you can make ul or ol actuall be a div
# [22:37] <Pomax> and li actually be a span
# [22:37] <Jon47> most of my navs looks like this -> nav > a + a + a...
# [22:37] <materialdesigner> what if in your navigation you had a paragraph of information?
# [22:37] <materialdesigner> that's only vaguely related to your list of navigation links?
# [22:37] <Pomax> if you care about semantic markup (kind of what html was for), then nav is better than ul/lo
# [22:37] <Pomax> *ul/ol
# [22:38] <Pomax> but only as a wrapper. I'd still use nav + ul+li inside
# [22:38] <Pomax> because it's a nav... with a list of nav entries.
# [22:38] <Jon47> i don't think it's appropriate to have a paragraph of content in the nav, but if I did have a large block of content wiht many nested elements, ul > li might start looking better
# [22:38] <materialdesigner> why isn't it appropriate to have a paragraph of content in the nav?
# [22:38] <materialdesigner> also, what happens when you have a multi-level navigation menu?
# [22:39] <Jon47> what happens then is you get a nav that nobody wants to use
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# [22:40] <materialdesigner> ...
# [22:40] <Jon47> i think simpler is better and i exalt minimalism, i understand that clients and bosses and stuff often don't have the same opinion
# [22:40] <Jon47> it's not the sort of thing i'd get into an argument over, just saying, these are my preferences..
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# [22:40] <materialdesigner> you say that, yet there are times when the project necessitates a hierarchical menu
# [22:41] <materialdesigner> things like the NY times and content-rich sites need further distinction in their navigation
# [22:41] <Pomax> minimalism is fine, as long as you keep in mind what you're actually doing. It's just functional tags, it's also semantic markup
# [22:41] <Jon47> uh, going back to Taylor's example
# [22:41] <Pomax> otherwise xhtml+css the hell out of your page and custom it into minimal heaven
# [22:41] <Jon47> we have what appears to be a link, and basically a little "tooltip" of info
# [22:42] <Jon47> not every situation is the same
# [22:42] <materialdesigner> we have what appears to be a list of links with tooltips
# [22:42] <Jon47> but in his case, if i was doing it, i would not use a ul
# [22:42] <taylorRichie> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/02/26/navigation-menus-trends-and-examples/
# [22:43] <taylorRichie> #1 is the style nav I'll be doing... having a context explanation of the nav item
# [22:43] <materialdesigner> I would personally make that nav>ul>li*3>a>span
# [22:44] <taylorRichie> But once again... my issue is controlling styles of individual divs that will be sliding in and out upon rollover.
# [22:44] <taylorRichie> I'm sure it can be controlled via LI, but I'm just not as comfortable with it... :D
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# [22:45] <Jon47> taylor, you shouldn't be afraid of li, it's just as easy to style as a div
# [22:45] <materialdesigner> http://jsfiddle.net/x5A3s/1/
# [22:45] <Jon47> i believe it's block by default
# [22:45] <materialdesigner> taylorRichie: are you using a reset.css or normalize.css?
# [22:45] <Jon47> and if you're using a good reset or normalization, there shouldn't be any margin/padding on it either
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# [22:46] <taylorRichie> normalize.
# [22:48] <materialdesigner> if you want to really get semantic, I'd use the http://www.quackit.com/html_5/tags/html_summary_tag.cfm details + summary tags
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# [22:48] <taylorRichie> materialdesigner: I do like your markup... I suppose I should embrace the <li> in this case, but I do prefer the "result" of my markup as opposed to yours. Not that anyone browses without css, on any device these days.
# [22:49] <materialdesigner> have you attempted to browse your markup in something like lynx?
# [22:49] <materialdesigner> if you do, you will immediately notice shortcomings in presentation
# [22:50] <taylorRichie> Downloading Lynx now...
# [22:50] <materialdesigner> I *always* check my sites in lynx
# [22:50] <taylorRichie> I love the idea of using Summary tag... that makes total sense.
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# [22:50] <taylorRichie> Can you manipulate it via CSS in the same way?
# [22:50] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: it uses javascript for the TOC #'s.
# [22:53] <materialdesigner> with an html5shiv, you should be able to manipulate it via CSS, but don't quote me on that
# [22:53] <materialdesigner> any idea, paul_irish ?
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# [22:53] <BrianBlakely> paul_irish: Counter CSS browser support not full enough, I guess? I'm not sure about the support, actually.
# [22:54] <BrianBlakely> Ahem, RIP webOS
# [22:54] <BrianBlakely> And HP, I suppose
# [22:54] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: you mean for the TOC itself or next to the <h3>s and shit
# [22:54] <paul_irish> i think i'm just too noob
# [22:54] <paul_irish> and i was like.. "omg nail! ... i know!!! JAVASCRIPT! "
# [22:55] <BrianBlakely> Hahaha, no shame, you'll learn ;)
# [22:55] <paul_irish> #patcheswelcomeorwhatever
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# [22:55] <BrianBlakely> I wasn't trying to uh, be a jerk, I was wondering if there were any notable holes in counter content :)
# [22:56] <materialdesigner> taylorRichie: http://jsfiddle.net/x5A3s/3/
# [22:57] <taylorRichie> Is there a precompiled version of Lynx available for OSX?
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# [22:57] <taylorRichie> @materialdesigner Brilliant... Love it.
# [22:57] <paul_irish> i have no idea BrianBlakely
# [22:57] <paul_irish> i'm only decently good at generated content. while ive done counters, i havent written it myself yet
# [22:58] <materialdesigner> taylorRichie: lynx is available via homebrew
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# [22:59] <BrianBlakely> paul_irish: gotcha. Loved the article, by the by
# [22:59] <taylorRichie> Does modernizr - modernize Summary and details for unsupported browsers?
# [23:00] <materialdesigner> modernizr is just a feature detector
# [23:00] <materialdesigner> let me check if there are any polyfills
# [23:00] <paul_irish> there is one by matjas
# [23:00] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: modernizr doesn't modernize anything :P Well.. almost.
# [23:01] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: :)
# [23:01] <BrianBlakely> <details> requires like.. 3 lines of JavaScript
# [23:01] <materialdesigner> http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/html5-details-jquery and https://github.com/manuelbieh/Details-Polyfill
# [23:04] <materialdesigner> idea for a new web app, customizable build tool for bundling polyfills
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# [23:04] <taylorRichie> @Brian - ahhh yes... Many apologies :D @material Exactly what I needed to know... In your guys' humble opinions is it too early to embrace <details> <summary?
# [23:04] <materialdesigner> I don't think it's too early to embrace anything.
# [23:04] <materialdesigner> personally
# [23:04] <materialdesigner> but I'm a bleeding edger
# [23:04] <r3volution11> as long as it degrades gracefully
# [23:05] <taylorRichie> Ha... Yeah... I'm just not sure all of my clients want to live on the edge...
# [23:05] <taylorRichie> @revolution... very true...
# [23:05] <materialdesigner> honestly, if you are already using new html5 elements and already are including a shim, I don't see a problem with it
# [23:06] <materialdesigner> and <nav> is one of those elements that would require the shim
# [23:06] <materialdesigner> I don't think you need to include a polyfill for the hide/show functionality
# [23:06] <taylorRichie> Does the current release of BoilerPlate utlize Shim?
# [23:07] <taylorRichie> or shiv.
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# [23:08] <materialdesigner> modernizr contains the shim, and you can optionally use just the shim instead of modernizr
# [23:09] <taylorRichie> That's what I thought... Thanks...
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# [23:17] <kollapse> Hi. Not sure if this is the right place (probably not!) but I'm wondering why Google can't crawl over my DDNS.
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# [23:20] <taylorRichie> I actually think in my case dl>dt*3>dd> might be more appropriate... Decisions decisions... thanks again for your help Material, Brian, and paul.
# [23:21] <materialdesigner> np, taylorRichie
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# [23:28] <taylorRichie> One last time: http://jsfiddle.net/x5A3s/3/
# [23:28] <taylorRichie> thoughts?
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# [23:40] <sic1> taylorRichie: so i guess u would need some sort of polyfill to make that work in non-modern browsers?
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# [23:47] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: http://jsfiddle.net/x5A3s/6/
# [23:47] <taylorRichie> sic1: I believe modernizr takes care of dl>dt>dd and properly shivs it?
# [23:48] <taylorRichie> BrianBlakely: In the result, using Chrome, I can no longer expand the details.
# [23:50] <BrianBlakely> Yeah, this code shouldn't run if a browser actually supports <details>...
# [23:51] <BrianBlakely> How does one detect that...
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# [23:52] <materialdesigner> Modernizr, lol
# [23:53] <materialdesigner> actually, maybe not, lol
# [23:53] <materialdesigner> brain fart
# [23:53] <BrianBlakely> materialdesigner: Yeah
# [23:53] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: http://jsfiddle.net/brianblakely/x5A3s/7/
# [23:53] <BrianBlakely> There we go
# [23:53] <BrianBlakely> <details> elements have an 'open' property
# [23:53] <BrianBlakely> Same way you would detect touch events
# [23:53] <BrianBlakely> (among other things)
# [23:54] <materialdesigner> mhm
# [23:54] <BrianBlakely> http://jsfiddle.net/brianblakely/x5A3s/8/
# [23:54] <BrianBlakely> Slight improvement
# [23:55] <BrianBlakely> So, not 3 lines, 13
# [23:55] <taylorRichie> HA! yeah...
# [23:56] <BrianBlakely> Jesus, is that how <details> is supposed to render?
# [23:56] <BrianBlakely> Those arrow thingies look terrible
# [23:56] <taylorRichie> They do... I'm assuming we'll be able to modify that via CSS... or eliminate it? The same way you can with <li>
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# [23:58] <taylorRichie> Man I wish I had spent the last 5 years learning the ins and outs of javascript instead of actionscript... :D
# [23:59] <taylorRichie> And now I have Canvas I need to learn... wheew...
# Session Close: Fri Aug 19 00:00:00 2011

The end :)