/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-08-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 18 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  32. # [00:47] <monteslu> "Best SMB Practices for Building a Reliable, Durable Mobile Infrastructure" sign up for the webinar...
  33. # [00:47] <monteslu> seems like the best practices are still being sorted out
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  35. # [00:48] <monteslu> how about just telling us some stuff that's working for you, and we'll decide what's "best" for us, otherwise you might come off as pretentious :)
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  105. # [03:15] <paul_irish> check this out in FF 6+ http://demos.eire-media.com/progress/demo.html
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  117. # [03:25] <paul_irish> humph: whats the name of this font?
  118. # [03:25] <paul_irish> like.. if you set ctx.font = ' .... ' would it be 'DejaVuSerif.ttf' ?
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  120. # [03:28] <paul_irish> looks like it
  121. # [03:28] <truppp> http://www.google.com/webfonts/specimen/Jura
  122. # [03:29] <paul_irish> humph: so i did
  123. # [03:29] <paul_irish> var c = $$('canvas')[0].getContext('2d'); c.fillText('omomgogmg', 0, 30); c.font = '20pt DejaVuSerif.ttf'
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  125. # [03:29] <paul_irish> whoops. switch those last two
  126. # [03:30] <paul_irish> and it works fine, so it seems like a race condition.
  127. # [03:30] <paul_irish> i pointed.. that other guy.... to a bug where typekit was wrestling with webkit loading the font a heartbeat later than it seemed to report
  128. # [03:30] <paul_irish> and i bet that's whats going on here
  129. # [03:31] <paul_irish> https://github.com/typekit/webfontloader/issues/26
  130. # [03:31] <socialhapy> ★ Issue #26 on webfontloader, reported by tandara98 (6m, 2w ago): Active firing too early on WebKit browsers
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  138. # [03:34] <brettgoulder> what's the goto JS library for html5 history API? history.js? /cc paul_irish
  139. # [03:35] <materialdesigner> https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/wiki/HTML5-Cross-Browser-Polyfills says History.js
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  142. # [03:37] <brettgoulder> thanks materialdesigner
  143. # [03:37] <materialdesigner> np, paul_irish can fill in if there's been any developments on that front.
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  146. # [03:40] <paul_irish> brettgoulder: i would recomment pjax.js
  147. # [03:41] <paul_irish> materialdesigner: can you add that in there?
  148. # [03:41] <materialdesigner> sure
  149. # [03:41] <brettgoulder> thanks paul_irish
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  152. # [03:44] <materialdesigner> done
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  157. # [03:45] <r3volution11> Oh hi.
  158. # [03:45] <eggsby> Hi r3volution11
  159. # [03:45] <r3volution11> Hi eggsby. I know you.
  160. # [03:46] <materialdesigner> oh hurro :3
  161. # [03:46] <r3volution11> acidjazz, of remorse?
  162. # [03:46] <r3volution11> materialdesigner: i know you too!
  163. # [03:46] <materialdesigner> omg i know you too!
  164. # [03:47] <r3volution11> I see a lot of nicknames in here that remind of ACiD members. Of course they could just be other people using names that are used just as much else where.
  165. # [03:47] <r3volution11> Isn't this awesome though? Us guys, ya know, in another channel?
  166. # [03:47] <r3volution11> I feel.. free.
  167. # [03:47] * tw2113 waves at r3volution11
  168. # [03:48] <materialdesigner> you should join #web
  169. # [03:48] <r3volution11> Not quite surprising yet always comforting: this channel has just about as much activity in it as any other irc channel.
  170. # [03:48] <materialdesigner> it's the 4chan of freenode.net
  171. # [03:48] <r3volution11> I think that's why I have never joined it.
  172. # [03:49] <r3volution11> I feel that the shenanigans of #forrst-chat are enough for me throughout the day.
  173. # [03:49] <materialdesigner> now that I actually get to be in forrst-chat during the day, lol
  174. # [03:50] <r3volution11> Indeed.
  175. # [03:50] <r3volution11> see now I dont know where to talk to your gentleman.
  176. # [03:50] <r3volution11> should I keep it here, or should i go back to #forrst-chat?
  177. # [03:50] <materialdesigner> go back
  178. # [03:50] <r3volution11> It's quite the dilemma.
  179. # [03:50] <materialdesigner> let's leave this chan ontopic
  180. # [03:50] <r3volution11> okily dokily.
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  182. # [03:57] <acidjazz> r3volution11: yea .. well.. the lit group?
  183. # [03:58] <r3volution11> well I just remember your nick truthfully :)
  184. # [03:58] <acidjazz> well lordjazz did most of the art for it
  185. # [03:58] <acidjazz> but i was in it a little and cia
  186. # [03:58] <r3volution11> I was in cia also.
  187. # [03:58] <acidjazz> oh nice
  188. # [03:58] <r3volution11> remorse for a couple months, odelay
  189. # [03:58] <r3volution11> mimic, etc.
  190. # [03:58] <acidjazz> i did this thing in san francisco
  191. # [03:58] <acidjazz> a couple years ago
  192. # [03:59] <acidjazz> you mighta heard of it
  193. # [03:59] <acidjazz> r3volution11: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/12/BUBFUD235.DTL
  194. # [03:59] <acidjazz> i curated a show w/ the work of somms and lordjazz
  195. # [03:59] <r3volution11> I believe I did
  196. # [03:59] <acidjazz> lotta oldschool artists came out of hte woodwork
  197. # [04:00] <acidjazz> blogged it http://ansi.notchill.com/
  198. # [04:00] <acidjazz> yea it was a blast
  199. # [04:00] <r3volution11> definitely recognize the wall displays and everything
  200. # [04:00] <r3volution11> did you join the acid group on facebook?
  201. # [04:00] <acidjazz> yea
  202. # [04:01] <acidjazz> uhm
  203. # [04:01] <acidjazz> well i duno about the group i liked the page
  204. # [04:01] <r3volution11> hah
  205. # [04:01] <r3volution11> radman invited me a couple of weeks ago
  206. # [04:01] <acidjazz> oh yea hteres hte invite
  207. # [04:02] <acidjazz> yea we became good friends w/ the show hes here in cali
  208. # [04:02] <r3volution11> :)
  209. # [04:02] <r3volution11> that's cool
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  211. # [04:03] <acidjazz> the fun was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIHKXCVeLyA
  212. # [04:03] <r3volution11> Haha, sweet.
  213. # [04:03] <acidjazz> using these parallox boards joe grand helped us out w/ we had to keep the fonts and everything on the SD card and load it
  214. # [04:03] <r3volution11> Yea the more I see the more I remember reading about it and everything.
  215. # [04:04] <acidjazz> i guess the idea made it blow up .. ppl came in from all over the world hte line to the gallery wrapped around the block
  216. # [04:04] <r3volution11> Wow
  217. # [04:04] <r3volution11> That's awesome.
  218. # [04:05] <acidjazz> tnx it was def. memorable
  219. # [04:06] <r3volution11> I bet. It's cool seeing people keeping it around. I can't remember the last time I messed with it .
  220. # [04:07] <r3volution11> I like checking out the websites every now and then
  221. # [04:07] <r3volution11> and I still have some old packs on my hd.
  222. # [04:07] <acidjazz> radman def. still tries w/ the demo group stuff he does
  223. # [04:07] <acidjazz> he has meetings in sf i go to every now and then and sometimse recognize someone
  224. # [04:08] <r3volution11> I only ever met a few people in the "scene"
  225. # [04:09] * Joins: Pomax (~Pomax@d205-250-160-3.bchsia.telus.net)
  226. # [04:09] <humph> paul_irish: aha, interesting
  227. # [04:09] <humph> paul_irish: Pomax and I have been trying to figure this out, it's a pain in the ass
  228. # [04:09] <humph> which 2 lines are you saying to switch?
  229. # [04:10] <paul_irish> i meant to say
  230. # [04:10] * Joins: OzDave_mbp (~OzDave_mb@27-33-43-79.static.tpgi.com.au)
  231. # [04:10] <paul_irish> var c = $$('canvas')[0].getContext('2d'); c.font = '20pt DejaVuSerif.ttf'; c.fillText('omomgogmg', 0, 30);
  232. # [04:11] <paul_irish> but yeah.. based on my own experience writing a webfont watcher.. and the 50k of webfontloader .. i think there is plenty that agrees with "it's a pain in the ass" :)
  233. # [04:11] <Pomax> although the . in the fontname requires the name to be quoted
  234. # [04:11] <humph> yeah, paul mentioned that before
  235. # [04:11] <humph> paul_irish: I just don't get why chrome hates this
  236. # [04:11] <paul_irish> me neither.
  237. # [04:11] <humph> it slides in like butter everywhere else
  238. # [04:11] <paul_irish> like butta
  239. # [04:11] <Pomax> safari also fails on it
  240. # [04:11] <humph> oh?
  241. # [04:11] <Pomax> looks like it's webkit
  242. # [04:12] <humph> damn you webkit
  243. # [04:12] <humph> probably worth a bug
  244. # [04:12] <Pomax> but I'm failing quite miserably trying to reduce it to a "this just breaks" fragment
  245. # [04:12] <acidjazz> paul_irish believe we have some mutual acquaiantances as well
  246. # [04:13] <paul_irish> id believe it.
  247. # [04:13] <acidjazz> i do some work w/ isobar in sf
  248. # [04:13] <paul_irish> oooo cool
  249. # [04:13] <acidjazz> i think you know jared?
  250. # [04:14] <acidjazz> so many ppl come and go i cant remember who mentioned it
  251. # [04:15] <paul_irish> i think i know jared.
  252. # [04:15] <paul_irish> i know Tyler Madison
  253. # [04:15] <acidjazz> ah yea
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  255. # [04:16] <acidjazz> i worked w/ him a bit
  256. # [04:16] <acidjazz> he just went to tribal w/ jared
  257. # [04:16] <r3volution11> Found some of my old ascii work. ah-ha
  258. # [04:16] <acidjazz> r3volution11: url
  259. # [04:16] <r3volution11> http://sixteencolors.net/pack/mimic17/r3v-ogre.asc
  260. # [04:16] <acidjazz> nice shading
  261. # [04:17] <acidjazz> so the guy that runs that site doug came out here from DC for that show and mentioned his site in a tv interview and it got slammed from the traffic w/in 10mins lol
  262. # [04:17] <r3volution11> thanks. i had a few good pieces. i never did get too good though. i think i just got lucky some times.
  263. # [04:17] <r3volution11> Haha, that's great. I wonder where he lives in DC. I'm in Annapolis.
  264. # [04:18] <acidjazz> i think near georgetown i cant remember, nice guy though
  265. # [04:18] <acidjazz> http://sixteencolors.net/pack/ciapak32/AJ-ANSI.LGO lol
  266. # [04:18] <r3volution11> Ah. I wonder if he ever hung out on any local BBS's
  267. # [04:18] <acidjazz> think i was 14 w/ that one..15
  268. # [04:18] <r3volution11> Word :)
  269. # [04:19] <r3volution11> i did some ansi too actually. I wonder how good the search engine is
  270. # [04:19] <acidjazz> it sgood
  271. # [04:19] <acidjazz> he got hte uhm
  272. # [04:19] <acidjazz> whats that code lol
  273. # [04:19] <acidjazz> that ansi readers owuld pick up
  274. # [04:19] <r3volution11> http://sixteencolors.net/pack/rmrs-18/R3V-PIT2.ASC
  275. # [04:19] <r3volution11> I dont know :)
  276. # [04:19] <acidjazz> signature code...
  277. # [04:20] <paul_irish> wow
  278. # [04:20] <paul_irish> http://picturoku.blogspot.com/2011/08/diaries-of-vulnerability.html
  279. # [04:22] <acidjazz> r3volution11: SAUCE!
  280. # [04:22] <acidjazz> SAUCE description lol
  281. # [04:22] <r3volution11> oh yea!
  282. # [04:22] <r3volution11> Yea I remember sauce :)
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  284. # [04:22] <r3volution11> I must have never really contributed my ansi much to the more popular art groups I was in because I can only find one
  285. # [04:22] <r3volution11> heh
  286. # [04:23] <r3volution11> and its just a BBS header
  287. # [04:23] <paul_irish> acidjazz: bros.. can y'all keep it on topic? :)
  288. # [04:23] <paul_irish> we're a focused bunch
  289. # [04:23] <r3volution11> Oh, yea, sorry.
  290. # [04:23] <paul_irish> :)
  291. # [04:23] <acidjazz> lol
  292. # [04:24] <r3volution11> So how about that HTML?
  293. # [04:25] <r3volution11> acidjazz, so I guess you're doing some web development these days?
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  298. # [04:34] <acidjazz> r3volution11: more or less.. doing gigs w/ ad agencys in sf .. pretty fun
  299. # [04:34] <acidjazz> finally got some html5 requests so ive been alot more fun. lots of ios/android stuff too
  300. # [04:35] <r3volution11> Word :)
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  302. # [04:37] <acidjazz> urself?
  303. # [04:38] <acidjazz> are there any canvas physics libraries out there btw
  304. # [04:38] <acidjazz> something similar to box2d
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  306. # [04:38] <acidjazz> be a fun thing to write
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  308. # [04:38] <r3volution11> I'm not much of a developer honestly. Just design and front end.
  309. # [04:38] <daleharvey> paperjs looks nice
  310. # [04:39] <acidjazz> and that uses canvas?
  311. # [04:39] <acidjazz> not svg?
  312. # [04:39] <Pomax> a lot of work went into that
  313. # [04:39] <Pomax> it's essentially a canvas port and extension of Scriptographer.
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  315. # [04:40] <acidjazz> so it is html5 canvas vs projcessing/svg/javascript
  316. # [04:40] <eggsby> yeah, that's canvas acidjazz
  317. # [04:40] <acidjazz> sweet
  318. # [04:40] <eggsby> http://paperjs.org/
  319. # [04:40] <daleharvey> pretty sure I am supposed to be a web dev
  320. # [04:40] <acidjazz> any competitors?
  321. # [04:40] <daleharvey> but for some reason I am spending my time trying to port erlang to android
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  323. # [04:40] <acidjazz> lol erlang
  324. # [04:41] <eggsby> I've been really impressed by d3.js too but that one is svg
  325. # [04:41] <acidjazz> nice
  326. # [04:41] <Pomax> if you need animation, SVG with SMILis not supported by IE atm if I recall correctly
  327. # [04:41] <acidjazz> yea i love svg personally and processing eggsby but this particular project i need to render a crapload of stuff at once
  328. # [04:41] <acidjazz> and i think canvas would be the fastest
  329. # [04:41] <acidjazz> i need animation
  330. # [04:42] <acidjazz> yea this looks legit
  331. # [04:42] <paul_irish> acidjazz: https://github.com/bebraw/jswiki/wiki/Physics-libraries
  332. # [04:42] <eggsby> paper is nice since you can use vector geometry and stuff
  333. # [04:42] <acidjazz> ive been using raphael alot
  334. # [04:43] <Pomax> I love SVG, but it's pretty unsuited as data format, so for large visualisations json + javascript tends to win
  335. # [04:43] <acidjazz> paul_irish: yea this is javascript though
  336. # [04:43] <Pomax> SVG is just too much overhead
  337. # [04:43] <acidjazz> example Pomax
  338. # [04:43] <Pomax> 3000 node undirected graph
  339. # [04:43] <acidjazz> bogs
  340. # [04:43] <Pomax> complete lunacy in SVG
  341. # [04:43] <eggsby> Right, canvas is definitely more performant. serverside rendering of canvas seems interesting if you don't need interactivity/animation
  342. # [04:44] <acidjazz> you just need a cpu/ram requirement popup like the side of game boxes
  343. # [04:44] <acidjazz> problem solved
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  345. # [04:44] <eggsby> Problem solved if you're willing to throw accessibility out the window :p
  346. # [04:45] <eggsby> THIS WEBSITE BEST RENDERED IN NETSCAPE NAVIGATOR.
  347. # [04:45] <acidjazz> http://www.m-i-b.com.ar/letters/en/
  348. # [04:45] <acidjazz> yea i was kiddin :)
  349. # [04:45] <acidjazz> HI WELCOME TO MY SITE PLS CLOSE ALL OTHER WINDOWS KTHX
  350. # [04:45] <eggsby> :)
  351. # [04:45] <acidjazz> stoked on paper tnx
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  469. # [08:33] <paul_irish> http://iewebgl.com/
  470. # [08:34] <materialdesigner> HA
  471. # [08:34] <tw2113> evening Irsh
  472. # [08:35] <tw2113> Irish*
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  485. # [08:55] <monteslu> iewebgl looks really cool. Who knew the directx-opengl battle would be fought in the browser
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  613. # [14:09] <ex1t> hi
  614. # [14:09] <ex1t> how can i put pixel into (X,Y) position of canvas?
  615. # [14:11] <Ms2ger> var id = cx.createImageData(1, 1); id.data[0] = r; id.data[1] = g; id.data[2] = b; id.data[3] = a; cx.putImageData(id, x, y);
  616. # [14:11] <Ms2ger> I guess
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  618. # [14:16] <ex1t> can i leave RGB[A] (data[3]) empty?
  619. # [14:16] <ex1t> without setting it value?
  620. # [14:18] <ex1t> btw, it doesn't work in my FF
  621. # [14:18] <ex1t> but other example of canvas do
  622. # [14:19] <ex1t> http://pastebin.com/UiXMyT0a
  623. # [14:19] <ex1t> could YOu please check what's wrong?
  624. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Try id.data[0] = 0xff; id.data[1] = 0xff; id.data[2] = 0x00;
  625. # [14:23] <ex1t> the same
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  627. # [14:25] <Ms2ger> Hmm
  628. # [14:26] <ex1t> Ms2ger, could You please pastebin Your code which works?
  629. # [14:26] <ex1t> maybe i'm doing something wrong
  630. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> I think what you have should work, but it doesn't work for me either
  631. # [14:26] <ex1t> even ctx.fillRect( x, y, 1, 1 ); doesn't work
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  633. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> >.<
  634. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> You do actually need to set id.data[3], if you don't the color is transparent
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  637. # [14:36] <ex1t> what should the value of data[3] be?
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  645. # [14:38] <ex1t> well, i'll try to figure it out myself
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  648. # [14:41] <Ms2ger> 0xff
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  669. # [15:33] <abdullahdiaa> hi everyone
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  671. # [15:34] <dr0id> hey
  672. # [15:36] <abdullahdiaa> really cool HTML5 example "Time Zone"
  673. # [15:36] <abdullahdiaa> http://everytimezone.com/
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  683. # [15:51] <miketaylr> would be even cooler if it didn't just have -webkit- CSS
  684. # [15:51] <miketaylr> (for the 3d stuff)
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  715. # [16:31] <nsisodiya> Hello - Here is a demo of 2x2 Workspace using HTML5 - http://code.narendrasisodiya.com/2x2-workspace-using-html5/
  716. # [16:32] <Pomax> nice. any plans for mouse/touch dragging?
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  769. # [17:18] <elb0w> is http://diveintohtml5.org/ still a good learning resource?
  770. # [17:18] <nimbu> yes
  771. # [17:19] <elb0w> is there better?
  772. # [17:19] <nimbu> that is pretty good.
  773. # [17:19] <jetienne_> elb0w: some are in the topic if you want more
  774. # [17:20] <jetienne_> html5rock for a tutorial section
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  798. # [17:37] <bhavesh> How can I change the pos_x and pos_y of HTML5 canvas context?
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  800. # [17:37] <bhavesh> context.drawImage(img, x, y); how can I change the x and y?
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  805. # [17:39] <Emperorlou> ...
  806. # [17:39] <bhavesh> while runtime...
  807. # [17:39] <nimbu> ?g MDN canvas @ bhavesh
  808. # [17:39] <bot-t> bhavesh, Canvas tutorial - MDN Docs - https://developer.mozilla.org/en/canvas_tutorial
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  810. # [17:40] <bhavesh> ok
  811. # [17:40] <Emperorlou> I think a question like that is more like "how does one program"
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  813. # [17:41] <Emperorlou> you'll need answers to questions like "whats a variable"
  814. # [17:41] <Emperorlou> and "how do I perform math"
  815. # [17:41] <bhavesh> well
  816. # [17:41] <Emperorlou> just seems kinda crazy to start with canvas dev if you're right at the starting line :p
  817. # [17:43] <bhavesh> It was translate() function
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  823. # [17:45] <bhavesh> btw its my second day with HTML5
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  845. # [18:15] <nsisodiya> Hello - Here is a demo of 2x2 Workspace using HTML5 - http://code.narendrasisodiya.com/2x2-workspace-using-html5/ Looking for comments
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  875. # [18:49] <LongBeach> nsisodiya
  876. # [18:49] <LongBeach> cool demo
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  878. # [18:50] <LongBeach> which HTML 5 features are in use in this demo ?
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  883. # [18:51] <Jon47> audio
  884. # [18:51] <Jon47> that looks to be it :/
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  914. # [19:27] <fission6> can someone explain the advanatges to audio tag?
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  917. # [19:29] <gf3> fission6: relative to what?
  918. # [19:29] <fission6> so if a browser supports the tag it gaurantes it can play certain formats?
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  930. # [19:46] <jetienne> i remember a library where you got several items, with some tags, and you get a nice animation for the transition between them , when you change the selected tags... i dont remember the name...
  931. # [19:46] <jetienne> super hard to formulate without the name :(
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  933. # [19:47] <jetienne> does this ring a bell to anyone ?
  934. # [19:47] <nimbu> what do you mean jetienne?
  935. # [19:47] <nimbu> how do you get items with tags O_O
  936. # [19:47] <jetienne> nimbu: i look for this library for a little demo, it has been release like 3-4 months ago. it made the news all over. and now i need it but cant remember the name. so i ask here
  937. # [19:48] <jetienne> nimbu: yep i know this isnt easy to express :)
  938. # [19:48] <jetienne> it was from a 'big guy' released at some js conf
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  940. # [19:49] * jetienne does a super loosy job at explaining it :)
  941. # [19:49] <jetienne> maybe i should do it with css3 transition instead
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  945. # [19:53] <jetienne> what is the browser behavior if css3 isnt supported ? css3 transition is silently ignored ?
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  948. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> Yes
  949. # [19:55] <fission6> how does <audio> support jumping ahead in an audio file
  950. # [19:55] <jetienne> Ms2ger: ok thanks
  951. # [19:56] <jetienne> fission6: badly in practice, super in theory
  952. # [19:56] <fission6> well i mean, what does it send to the server to request PLAY "1 minute into the song"
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  954. # [20:00] <jetienne> fission6: this is very dependaant of the implementation. but you may have a read for the begining of the file, the header with the index info, then a second read to get the actual data
  955. # [20:00] <jetienne> this is how it is done for video at least. no spec here. pure implementation
  956. # [20:01] <jetienne> some implementation may choose to download the whole file :)
  957. # [20:01] <fission6> so how does it tell (the player->browser), amazon cloud front it won't to start streaming mid way into the song
  958. # [20:02] <fission6> is that in a request header or something, saying - hey - lets have you send packets starting at byte whatever
  959. # [20:03] <jetienne> fission6: yep this is the http range stuff
  960. # [20:04] <jetienne> fission6: search for http range request
  961. # [20:04] <fission6> ok thanks
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  963. # [20:07] <SuperNull> so i just added the doctype html to a page.. and now all my CSS width,height attributes seem to not be working is this standard for html5 ? (firefox 6.0)
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  974. # [20:33] <miketaylr> danbeam: ping
  975. # [20:33] <tw2113> yo mike
  976. # [20:33] <miketaylr> hey dude
  977. # [20:34] <miketaylr> danbeam: neverrrrmind. some dead links on the YUI blog, but found what i wanted.
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  991. # [20:48] <BrianBlakely> paul_irish: Do you know if there is a specific reason that the "How Browsers Work" article uses hard-coded counters instead of ::before content?
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  1016. # [21:23] <BrianBlakely> This article has an interesting alternative to using Math.round: http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/canvas/performance/#toc-avoid-float
  1017. # [21:24] <BrianBlakely> I think I'll be using bitwise operators for rounding from now on!
  1018. # [21:24] <BrianBlakely> Though, curiously, Chrome 14's performance is well below Chrome 13's. Why include a beta in the graph?
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  1020. # [21:26] <BrianBlakely> Ah, OK, the m14 numbers on the jsperf are appropriately higher than m13 or errantly lower
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  1024. # [21:39] <rezoner> I am looking for a cross-browser js event library with mouse wheel support - i've already tried some (like bean or event.js) but they don't normalize events, or support wheel.
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  1034. # [21:48] <humph> anyone got chrome on windows and can test a crash bug for me?
  1035. # [21:48] * humph needs to know if it happens only on mac
  1036. # [21:51] <humph> nvm, confirmed
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  1042. # [22:02] <taylorRichie> Hi folks, Is there anyone here that can help me with an Html5 <nav> question?
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  1044. # [22:03] <shepazu> taylorRichie: go ahead and ask, we'll help if we can
  1045. # [22:03] <taylorRichie> I'm wondering if it's acceptable markup to have <div> within <nav> rather than <UL> <LI>
  1046. # [22:03] <taylorRichie> ie... <nav> <div id="capabilities><a href="capabilities.html">Capabilities</a></div></nav>
  1047. # [22:04] <taylorRichie> (of course there would be mor ethan just that one link)
  1048. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> Sure
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  1054. # [22:08] <taylorRichie> Ms2ger: was that toward me :D
  1055. # [22:08] <Ms2ger> Yes
  1056. # [22:09] <taylorRichie> Thank you sir!
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  1063. # [22:22] <taylorRichie> <nav> <div id="nav_capabilities"> <a href="#">Capability</a> <p class="nav_subText">A rundown of our services</p> </div> <div id="nav_capacity"> <a href="#">Capacity</a> <p class="nav_subText">How much can we handle</p> </div> <div id="nav_credibility"> <a href="#">Credibility</a> <p class="nav_subText">The quality of being trustworthy</p> </div> </nav>
  1064. # [22:22] <taylorRichie> So this should be completely valid? (if there's a way to paste formatted code... I don't know it)
  1065. # [22:24] <Jon47> raylorRichie usually a link to a pastebin or fiddle or something is best
  1066. # [22:24] <sic1> use http://jsfiddle.net/ when you need to share code longer than a line.
  1067. # [22:24] <sic1> oops, hah yea, there ya go
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  1069. # [22:25] <Jon47> same time man
  1070. # [22:25] <taylorRichie> Perfect... I will do that.
  1071. # [22:26] <taylorRichie> http://jsfiddle.net/x5A3s/
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  1073. # [22:27] <Jon47> looks valid to me
  1074. # [22:27] <sic1> ^
  1075. # [22:27] <sic1> some might argue to use ul li instead of divs there
  1076. # [22:28] <materialdesigner> why not use nav>ul>li*3>a+p?
  1077. # [22:28] * Parts: spasquali (~spasquali@64.61.91.74)
  1078. # [22:28] <sic1> ^
  1079. # [22:28] <materialdesigner> or not even a+p, a+something else
  1080. # [22:28] <taylorRichie> I plan on having 2 divs for each nav item, the second div will only be visible on roll over. Controlled via Jquery.
  1081. # [22:29] <materialdesigner> nav>ul>li*3>div*2
  1082. # [22:29] <taylorRichie> I also thought you couldn't use <p> tags on <li's> am I mistaken?
  1083. # [22:29] <materialdesigner> you can't, IIRC
  1084. # [22:30] <sic1> others might use nested uls
  1085. # [22:30] * Quits: RLa (~RL@infdot.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  1086. # [22:30] <Jon47> an li would be another level of depth that's not necessary, nor any more semantic
  1087. # [22:30] <materialdesigner> think of how you would present it without jQuery
  1088. # [22:30] <materialdesigner> nor any more semantic?
  1089. # [22:30] <Jon47> nor would it be any more semantic
  1090. # [22:30] <materialdesigner> that seriously looks like a *list* of elements to me
  1091. # [22:31] <Jon47> everything in html is a list
  1092. # [22:31] <Jon47> a list of nodes
  1093. # [22:31] <materialdesigner> that's not at all true
  1094. # [22:31] <Jon47> i think it is
  1095. # [22:31] <Pomax> technically a tree of nodes. but we can squint and then it's a list
  1096. # [22:31] <sic1> it all depends on what ur doin, but those extra wrappers allow for better styling possibilities
  1097. # [22:32] <taylorRichie> I tend to have an easier time manipulating divs than UL's which is why I chose Divs...
  1098. # [22:32] <sic1> i hear ya
  1099. # [22:32] <materialdesigner> easier time manipulating divs than uls?
  1100. # [22:32] <materialdesigner> if you reset or normalize, they are the same blank canvas
  1101. # [22:32] <Jon47> unless there's a compelling reason, i think a shallower, slimmer DOM is always a good idea
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  1103. # [22:33] <sic1> agreed
  1104. # [22:33] <materialdesigner> …semantics is the compelling reason
  1105. # [22:33] <Jon47> you'll have to explain to me why making that a list is more semantic
  1106. # [22:33] <materialdesigner> because it is a list
  1107. # [22:34] <Jon47> it is a list because —> it is a list becaus...
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  1109. # [22:34] <Jon47> a sentence is a list of words, do you want to put all your sentences in ul tags also?
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  1111. # [22:34] <sic1> litter and...littering and...
  1112. # [22:34] <materialdesigner> "A set of items considered as being in the same category or having a particular order of priority"
  1113. # [22:35] <Jon47> that doesn't do it for me, everybody's gotta draw the line somewhere, i choose to not use "li" for nav stuff, i'm not saying it's what you gotta do
  1114. # [22:35] <Pomax> with the added distinction that if you use ul, you are saying "these are all similar things, within the same context, but they have no specific order"
  1115. # [22:36] <materialdesigner> ^
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  1117. # [22:36] <materialdesigner> including things in the same wrapper only gives incidental semantics
  1118. # [22:36] <materialdesigner> but these aren't incidentally related
  1119. # [22:36] <Pomax> so ul+li = a collection of similar things, to be styled however you like. because CSS.
  1120. # [22:36] <materialdesigner> they are directly related
  1121. # [22:36] <Pomax> it's a conceptual "bag of the same things".
  1122. # [22:36] <Jon47> they're all in the "nav", that's enough for me
  1123. # [22:36] <Pomax> ol+li = a 1,2,3 or a,b,c or ... listing.
  1124. # [22:36] <materialdesigner> simply including things next to each other doesn't formalize their relationship
  1125. # [22:36] <Pomax> although again, you control the CSS so you can make ul or ol actuall be a div
  1126. # [22:37] <Pomax> and li actually be a span
  1127. # [22:37] <Jon47> most of my navs looks like this -> nav > a + a + a...
  1128. # [22:37] <materialdesigner> what if in your navigation you had a paragraph of information?
  1129. # [22:37] <materialdesigner> that's only vaguely related to your list of navigation links?
  1130. # [22:37] <Pomax> if you care about semantic markup (kind of what html was for), then nav is better than ul/lo
  1131. # [22:37] <Pomax> *ul/ol
  1132. # [22:38] <Pomax> but only as a wrapper. I'd still use nav + ul+li inside
  1133. # [22:38] <Pomax> because it's a nav... with a list of nav entries.
  1134. # [22:38] <Jon47> i don't think it's appropriate to have a paragraph of content in the nav, but if I did have a large block of content wiht many nested elements, ul > li might start looking better
  1135. # [22:38] <materialdesigner> why isn't it appropriate to have a paragraph of content in the nav?
  1136. # [22:38] <materialdesigner> also, what happens when you have a multi-level navigation menu?
  1137. # [22:39] <Jon47> what happens then is you get a nav that nobody wants to use
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  1139. # [22:40] <materialdesigner> ...
  1140. # [22:40] <Jon47> i think simpler is better and i exalt minimalism, i understand that clients and bosses and stuff often don't have the same opinion
  1141. # [22:40] <Jon47> it's not the sort of thing i'd get into an argument over, just saying, these are my preferences..
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  1143. # [22:40] <materialdesigner> you say that, yet there are times when the project necessitates a hierarchical menu
  1144. # [22:41] <materialdesigner> things like the NY times and content-rich sites need further distinction in their navigation
  1145. # [22:41] <Pomax> minimalism is fine, as long as you keep in mind what you're actually doing. It's just functional tags, it's also semantic markup
  1146. # [22:41] <Jon47> uh, going back to Taylor's example
  1147. # [22:41] <Pomax> otherwise xhtml+css the hell out of your page and custom it into minimal heaven
  1148. # [22:41] <Jon47> we have what appears to be a link, and basically a little "tooltip" of info
  1149. # [22:42] <Jon47> not every situation is the same
  1150. # [22:42] <materialdesigner> we have what appears to be a list of links with tooltips
  1151. # [22:42] <Jon47> but in his case, if i was doing it, i would not use a ul
  1152. # [22:42] <taylorRichie> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/02/26/navigation-menus-trends-and-examples/
  1153. # [22:43] <taylorRichie> #1 is the style nav I'll be doing... having a context explanation of the nav item
  1154. # [22:43] <materialdesigner> I would personally make that nav>ul>li*3>a>span
  1155. # [22:44] <taylorRichie> But once again... my issue is controlling styles of individual divs that will be sliding in and out upon rollover.
  1156. # [22:44] <taylorRichie> I'm sure it can be controlled via LI, but I'm just not as comfortable with it... :D
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  1158. # [22:45] <Jon47> taylor, you shouldn't be afraid of li, it's just as easy to style as a div
  1159. # [22:45] <materialdesigner> http://jsfiddle.net/x5A3s/1/
  1160. # [22:45] <Jon47> i believe it's block by default
  1161. # [22:45] <materialdesigner> taylorRichie: are you using a reset.css or normalize.css?
  1162. # [22:45] <Jon47> and if you're using a good reset or normalization, there shouldn't be any margin/padding on it either
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  1164. # [22:46] <taylorRichie> normalize.
  1165. # [22:48] <materialdesigner> if you want to really get semantic, I'd use the http://www.quackit.com/html_5/tags/html_summary_tag.cfm details + summary tags
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  1168. # [22:48] <taylorRichie> materialdesigner: I do like your markup... I suppose I should embrace the <li> in this case, but I do prefer the "result" of my markup as opposed to yours. Not that anyone browses without css, on any device these days.
  1169. # [22:49] <materialdesigner> have you attempted to browse your markup in something like lynx?
  1170. # [22:49] <materialdesigner> if you do, you will immediately notice shortcomings in presentation
  1171. # [22:50] <taylorRichie> Downloading Lynx now...
  1172. # [22:50] <materialdesigner> I *always* check my sites in lynx
  1173. # [22:50] <taylorRichie> I love the idea of using Summary tag... that makes total sense.
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  1176. # [22:50] <taylorRichie> Can you manipulate it via CSS in the same way?
  1177. # [22:50] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: it uses javascript for the TOC #'s.
  1178. # [22:53] <materialdesigner> with an html5shiv, you should be able to manipulate it via CSS, but don't quote me on that
  1179. # [22:53] <materialdesigner> any idea, paul_irish ?
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  1181. # [22:53] <BrianBlakely> paul_irish: Counter CSS browser support not full enough, I guess? I'm not sure about the support, actually.
  1182. # [22:54] <BrianBlakely> Ahem, RIP webOS
  1183. # [22:54] <BrianBlakely> And HP, I suppose
  1184. # [22:54] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: you mean for the TOC itself or next to the <h3>s and shit
  1185. # [22:54] <paul_irish> i think i'm just too noob
  1186. # [22:54] <paul_irish> and i was like.. "omg nail! ... i know!!! JAVASCRIPT! "
  1187. # [22:55] <BrianBlakely> Hahaha, no shame, you'll learn ;)
  1188. # [22:55] <paul_irish> #patcheswelcomeorwhatever
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  1191. # [22:55] <BrianBlakely> I wasn't trying to uh, be a jerk, I was wondering if there were any notable holes in counter content :)
  1192. # [22:56] <materialdesigner> taylorRichie: http://jsfiddle.net/x5A3s/3/
  1193. # [22:57] <taylorRichie> Is there a precompiled version of Lynx available for OSX?
  1194. # [22:57] * Quits: simplicity- (~simplicit@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Client Quit)
  1195. # [22:57] <taylorRichie> @materialdesigner Brilliant... Love it.
  1196. # [22:57] <paul_irish> i have no idea BrianBlakely
  1197. # [22:57] <paul_irish> i'm only decently good at generated content. while ive done counters, i havent written it myself yet
  1198. # [22:58] <materialdesigner> taylorRichie: lynx is available via homebrew
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  1200. # [22:59] <BrianBlakely> paul_irish: gotcha. Loved the article, by the by
  1201. # [22:59] <taylorRichie> Does modernizr - modernize Summary and details for unsupported browsers?
  1202. # [23:00] <materialdesigner> modernizr is just a feature detector
  1203. # [23:00] <materialdesigner> let me check if there are any polyfills
  1204. # [23:00] <paul_irish> there is one by matjas
  1205. # [23:00] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: modernizr doesn't modernize anything :P Well.. almost.
  1206. # [23:01] <paul_irish> BrianBlakely: :)
  1207. # [23:01] <BrianBlakely> <details> requires like.. 3 lines of JavaScript
  1208. # [23:01] <materialdesigner> http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/html5-details-jquery and https://github.com/manuelbieh/Details-Polyfill
  1209. # [23:04] <materialdesigner> idea for a new web app, customizable build tool for bundling polyfills
  1210. # [23:04] * Quits: ophiel (ophiel@newelite.bshellz.net) (Changing host)
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  1212. # [23:04] <taylorRichie> @Brian - ahhh yes... Many apologies :D @material Exactly what I needed to know... In your guys' humble opinions is it too early to embrace <details> <summary?
  1213. # [23:04] <materialdesigner> I don't think it's too early to embrace anything.
  1214. # [23:04] <materialdesigner> personally
  1215. # [23:04] <materialdesigner> but I'm a bleeding edger
  1216. # [23:04] <r3volution11> as long as it degrades gracefully
  1217. # [23:05] <taylorRichie> Ha... Yeah... I'm just not sure all of my clients want to live on the edge...
  1218. # [23:05] <taylorRichie> @revolution... very true...
  1219. # [23:05] <materialdesigner> honestly, if you are already using new html5 elements and already are including a shim, I don't see a problem with it
  1220. # [23:06] <materialdesigner> and <nav> is one of those elements that would require the shim
  1221. # [23:06] <materialdesigner> I don't think you need to include a polyfill for the hide/show functionality
  1222. # [23:06] <taylorRichie> Does the current release of BoilerPlate utlize Shim?
  1223. # [23:07] <taylorRichie> or shiv.
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  1225. # [23:08] <materialdesigner> modernizr contains the shim, and you can optionally use just the shim instead of modernizr
  1226. # [23:09] <taylorRichie> That's what I thought... Thanks...
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  1233. # [23:17] <kollapse> Hi. Not sure if this is the right place (probably not!) but I'm wondering why Google can't crawl over my DDNS.
  1234. # [23:20] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-121-23.dynamic.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1235. # [23:20] <taylorRichie> I actually think in my case dl>dt*3>dd> might be more appropriate... Decisions decisions... thanks again for your help Material, Brian, and paul.
  1236. # [23:21] <materialdesigner> np, taylorRichie
  1237. # [23:28] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-113-28.dynamic.hinet.net)
  1238. # [23:28] <taylorRichie> One last time: http://jsfiddle.net/x5A3s/3/
  1239. # [23:28] <taylorRichie> thoughts?
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  1244. # [23:40] <sic1> taylorRichie: so i guess u would need some sort of polyfill to make that work in non-modern browsers?
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  1252. # [23:47] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: http://jsfiddle.net/x5A3s/6/
  1253. # [23:47] <taylorRichie> sic1: I believe modernizr takes care of dl>dt>dd and properly shivs it?
  1254. # [23:48] <taylorRichie> BrianBlakely: In the result, using Chrome, I can no longer expand the details.
  1255. # [23:50] <BrianBlakely> Yeah, this code shouldn't run if a browser actually supports <details>...
  1256. # [23:51] <BrianBlakely> How does one detect that...
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  1259. # [23:52] <materialdesigner> Modernizr, lol
  1260. # [23:53] <materialdesigner> actually, maybe not, lol
  1261. # [23:53] <materialdesigner> brain fart
  1262. # [23:53] <BrianBlakely> materialdesigner: Yeah
  1263. # [23:53] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: http://jsfiddle.net/brianblakely/x5A3s/7/
  1264. # [23:53] <BrianBlakely> There we go
  1265. # [23:53] <BrianBlakely> <details> elements have an 'open' property
  1266. # [23:53] <BrianBlakely> Same way you would detect touch events
  1267. # [23:53] <BrianBlakely> (among other things)
  1268. # [23:54] <materialdesigner> mhm
  1269. # [23:54] <BrianBlakely> http://jsfiddle.net/brianblakely/x5A3s/8/
  1270. # [23:54] <BrianBlakely> Slight improvement
  1271. # [23:55] <BrianBlakely> So, not 3 lines, 13
  1272. # [23:55] <taylorRichie> HA! yeah...
  1273. # [23:56] <BrianBlakely> Jesus, is that how <details> is supposed to render?
  1274. # [23:56] <BrianBlakely> Those arrow thingies look terrible
  1275. # [23:56] <taylorRichie> They do... I'm assuming we'll be able to modify that via CSS... or eliminate it? The same way you can with <li>
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  1278. # [23:58] <taylorRichie> Man I wish I had spent the last 5 years learning the ins and outs of javascript instead of actionscript... :D
  1279. # [23:59] <taylorRichie> And now I have Canvas I need to learn... wheew...
  1280. # Session Close: Fri Aug 19 00:00:00 2011

The end :)