/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-08-19 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Aug 19 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:05] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: I've heard that before (wrt ActionScript)
# [00:06] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: Also, I'm trying some things, but cannot remove the arrows
# [00:06] <BrianBlakely> What malarkey
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# [00:07] <taylorRichie> BrianBlakely: I found a Stack Overflow where someone said it's complicated to style that element. Especially across platforms.
# [00:08] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: linkie?
# [00:08] <taylorRichie> BrianBlakely: When I was hired we were a Flash House only, so everything I did furthered my flash/actionscript knowledge... and js went down the tube.
# [00:09] <taylorRichie> Upon further inspection the stack was about styling the drop arrow on the <select> element.
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# [00:10] <taylorRichie> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/611482/change-color-and-appearance-of-drop-down-arrow
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# [00:15] <taylorRichie> BrianBlakely: Are you responsible for HTML5Rocks.com?
# [00:16] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: No, but thank you! :)
# [00:18] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: That stackoverflow question is about <select>
# [00:18] <taylorRichie> HA... Just saw your link on to a tutorial on Twitter, and thought I'd ask... I'm assuming you're @brianblakely I just started following you...
# [00:18] <taylorRichie> Yes... I mentioned that right above the link. :D
# [00:18] <BrianBlakely> Ah, cool man, I'll try to post quality content
# [00:18] <BrianBlakely> taylorRichie: Oh, sorry
# [00:18] <BrianBlakely> !
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# [00:20] <taylorRichie> It wasn't a clearly stated question IMO, and the responses are where I discovered it was in regards to <select> I'll probably go with <DL> on this project... Since it looks like a big hack job to style the way I intend to.
# [00:21] <taylorRichie> I have only recently started using twitter... I resisted for the longest time... TOo many people 'tweeting' about their trips to the grocery store.
# [00:22] <trumpetmic> is there an IRC channel on accessibility?
# [00:23] <taylorRichie> trumpetmic: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings
# [00:23] <taylorRichie> Might be helpful.
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# [00:25] <trumpetmic> taylorRichie
# [00:26] <trumpetmic> thanks
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# [00:33] <Chat0122> hi
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# [00:34] <tantek> taylorRichie - I've collected the request about restyling select arrow here: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Tantek-Mozilla-projects#Styling_HTML5_UI_elements (suffice it to say, this is an area that needs quite a bit of work, and I appreciate the links to specific examples of web designer requests to restyle various things)
# [00:35] <BrianBlakely> Here's a question: how to markup a citation for a piece of media?
# [00:35] <tantek> BrianBlakely - example content?
# [00:35] <BrianBlakely> So you have a video, and below it: "video by: Steve Holt"
# [00:36] <taylorRichie> tantek - Thank you!
# [00:36] <taylorRichie> tantek as I get further a long I can provide specific examples of how I'd like to manipulate the arrow.
# [00:36] <tantek> BrianBlakely - so you want to mark up info about the video - is that what you mean?
# [00:36] <tantek> taylorRichie - great - more and specific examples welcome
# [00:37] <BrianBlakely> tantek: Yep, only that particular datum in this case
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# [00:41] <tantek> taylorRichie - please feel free to directly edit and add more specific examples here: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Select#stylability
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# [00:41] <tantek> and I'll try to collate from there
# [00:42] <tantek> repeat for taylorRichie1: - please feel free to directly edit and add more specific examples here: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Select#stylability
# [00:42] <tantek> [22:36]
# [00:42] <nimbu> BrianBlakely: <cite>
# [00:43] <tantek> nimbi - <cite> isn't appropriate in that instance as that's not the name/title of the video
# [00:43] <nimbu> o right
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# [00:43] <tantek> nimbu (sorry about typo)
# [00:43] <taylorRichie> tantek - absolutely... sorry I just signed on with adium so I'm double logged... getting ready to leave the office.
# [00:43] <BrianBlakely> nimbu: Yeah, that's where I went first also
# [00:44] <BrianBlakely> Haha, but MDN has essentially a big stop sign at the top :P
# [00:44] <tantek> BrianBlakely - there are two things you can do
# [00:44] <BrianBlakely> tantek: All ears
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# [00:44] <tantek> you can use <figure> and <figcaption> to relate the <video> and that "caption" about it
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# [00:44] <nimbu> ^
# [00:44] <BrianBlakely> tantek: I was thinking that, but isn't it supposed to be for tangential content?
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# [00:45] <tantek> what is tangential?
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# [00:45] <BrianBlakely> Related, but not the core content
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# [00:46] <BrianBlakely> It's referential to the core
# [00:46] <tantek> no figure is correct here
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# [00:46] <tantek> see: http://html5doctor.com/the-figure-figcaption-elements/
# [00:46] <BrianBlakely> Boosh
# [00:46] <tantek> e.g. scroll down to: Figure with an image and caption
# [00:46] <slifty> Hmmmmm, I want to tell you all a joke about a UDP packet but you might not get it
# [00:47] <BrianBlakely> tantek: Thank you for that
# [00:47] * tantek wishes html5doctor.com would put fragment IDs on their headings :/
# [00:47] <r3volution11> slifty: second time i've seen that joke in 24 hours.
# [00:47] <paul_irish> whoever made this page is a jERK http://whatsmybrowserversion.com/
# [00:47] * slifty snaps his fingers
# [00:47] <slifty> got it texted and had to share ;)
# [00:48] <taylorRichie> • If the content is simply related and not essential, use <aside>.
# [00:48] <taylorRichie> • If the content is essential but its position in the flow of content isn’t important, use <figure>.
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# [00:48] <taylorRichie> So aside is more tangential
# [00:48] <nimbu> +1
# [00:48] <r3volution11> :)
# [00:49] <tantek> slifty - http://www.google.com/search?q=protolol+site:twitter.com
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# [00:49] <tantek> enjoy ;)
# [00:49] <taylorRichie> @paul_irish - that's just a great example of responsive design :D
# [00:50] <slifty> haha thanks tantek
# [00:50] <tantek> slitty - here's a challenge - see if you can get a "Protolol" page created on wikipedia that documents known Protolols
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# [00:50] <tantek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protolol
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# [00:50] <tantek> BrianBlakely - no problem
# [00:51] <tantek> there were two things
# [00:51] <tantek> first, <figure> and <figcaption> to associate the video with the caption text you have on the page
# [00:51] <tantek> second, since you're specifically stating the author
# [00:51] <tantek> you can mark him up (Steve Holt) with an hCard as well
# [00:52] <tantek> although I should ask first - in your example, is "Steve Holt" a link that links to his website/profile?
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# [00:54] <BrianBlakely> tantek: Undecided at this point
# [00:54] <tantek> if so, and the page with the video represents the video, then you can markup "Steve Holt" like:
# [00:54] <tantek> oh ok
# [00:54] <tantek> so, without a link:
# [00:54] <BrianBlakely> These videos very well could be UGC, but we may have pro photographers instead
# [00:54] <tantek> <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">Steve Holt</span></span>
# [00:55] <tantek> at least marks him up as a person
# [00:55] <tantek> with a link, it gets fancier
# [00:55] <tantek> <span class="vcard"><a rel="author" class="fn url">Steve Holt</a></span>
# [00:55] <BrianBlakely> tantek: Good point. I'll probably implement MicroData instead of MicroFormats; what's your take?
# [00:55] <tantek> assuming the page (as well as video) is by Steve Holt
# [00:56] <tantek> microformats take up less markup (easier) for common cases like people/events, and are supported by more tools
# [00:56] <BrianBlakely> mm
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# [00:56] <tantek> the nice thing is - if you want you can do both
# [00:56] <tantek> they don't interfere
# [00:57] <BrianBlakely> Indeed; I would simply be doing it for SEO value, in any case.
# [00:57] <tantek> in that case yeah, microformats have proven out SEO value, microdata, claimed but not really shown yet
# [00:58] <tantek> but if you're doing it for future potential SEO value and want to cover all your bases, then you could add both microformats (for today), and microdata (potentially for tomorrow)
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# [01:03] <BrianBlakely> tantek: I shall consider it; thank you again :)
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# [01:03] <BrianBlakely> So the day has finally come. When clearfix's :after rules have collided with my regular :after rule.
# [01:04] <BrianBlakely> You think of :after like some far-off thing that makes clearfix safe
# [01:04] <BrianBlakely> But it ISN'T safe
# [01:04] <BrianBlakely> It isn't
# [01:05] <tantek> BrianBlakely no problem at all. Also if you have any further questions about microformats/microdata etc., feel free to /join #microformats
# [01:05] <BrianBlakely> tantek: Certainly will!
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# [03:19] <danbeam> ?tell miketaylr I work at Google now, dawg, hit dgathright with YUI stuff
# [03:19] <bot-t> danbeam, Okay.
# [03:20] * danbeam hates the HTML5 drag and drop API
# [03:21] <tw2113> ?tell danbeam that he doesn't work at Yahoo
# [03:21] <bot-t> tw2113, Okay.
# [03:21] <tw2113> :D
# [03:21] * materialdesigner will be applying for Google in a month-ish
# [03:21] <danbeam> :|
# [03:21] <bot-t> (20 secs ago) <tw2113> tell danbeam that he doesn't work at Yahoo
# [03:21] * danbeam hopes nobody that works with materialdesigner is in this channel
# [03:22] <materialdesigner> lol I'm a student
# [03:22] <danbeam> materialdesigner: ah
# [03:22] <tw2113> yo otherwise dan
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# [03:27] <nimbu> anyone remember the modernizr based mobile browser html5 test website?
# [03:28] <materialdesigner> the words separately make sense, when strung together into a sentence, lack meaning
# [03:29] <nimbu> ah this http://www.browserscope.org/user/tests/table/agt1YS1wcm9maWxlcnINCxIEVGVzdBib2KQGDA?v=2&score=1&highlight=1
# [03:31] <danbeam> tw2113: what up
# [03:32] <tw2113> trying to decide how much work i wanna do today
# [03:33] <danbeam> tw2113: cool
# [03:34] <tw2113> i'm kind of "i have work I should be doing, but damn it I just turned 28 and i feel a little lazy"
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# [04:33] <tw2113> how's everyone?
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# [05:31] <niftylettuce> tw2113: heyo
# [05:31] <niftylettuce> anyone here try CraftyJS, Isogenic, or any of the other JS game engines?
# [05:32] <niftylettuce> trying to pick the best one before i write any tests
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# [08:20] <niftylettuce> danbeam: yo man is the Yahoo music player stuff from any OSS material?
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# [08:20] <niftylettuce> danbeam: got an op that involves music streaming/player
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# [09:02] <chady> does the nine argument drawImage in canvas context not work in safari and chrome?
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# [13:18] <RLa> wtf is this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2142535/how-to-clear-the-canvas-for-redrawing
# [13:18] <RLa> there is no easy way to clear canvas?
# [13:18] <RLa> why do we need such hacks
# [13:20] <moo-_-> RLa: I think that's the same for all drawing APIs
# [13:20] <RLa> drawing APIs?
# [13:20] <moo-_-> RLa: of course, it would be convient to say .clear()
# [13:20] <moo-_-> RLa: SDL, Allegro, Python Imaging, whatever I have been using during my life
# [13:21] <moo-_-> RLa: but clearRect() is enough, I guess
# [13:21] <RLa> i do lot of custom painting in qt and just redraw by first drawing background and then contents on top of it, no need to "clear" anything at all
# [13:21] <moo-_-> well you do not need to clear canvas either if you draw a background on it :)
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# [13:22] <RLa> i'm trying to draw a line graph, so i start by filling background with white color
# [13:23] <RLa> hm, what happens to canvas context instances, will i get same instance all the time when calling getContext?
# [13:23] <RLa> if so, then i maybe have to clear the context itself
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# [13:25] <RLa> i'm not getting what is going on in the back, when you use context to draw, is it rasterized right away and the bitmap is kept around?
# [13:25] <moo-_-> RLa: bitmap is kept around
# [13:25] <moo-_-> RLa: it's similar to Image in that fashion
# [13:25] <moo-_-> so you have a dynamic image object
# [13:26] <RLa> hm, for a second i though that draw commands are kept, bound to the context
# [13:26] <Narcarsiss> out university assigment specifys that there must be no styling done in the html5 only css, my question to you is the button tag a style tag?
# [13:26] <Ms2ger> No
# [13:27] <moo-_-> Narcarsiss: functional
# [13:27] <moo-_-> RLa: it's not vector :I
# [13:27] <Narcarsiss> ok, awesome dont want to loose HD for using it.
# [13:28] <RLa> so a canvas "context" is rather lightweight object and does not keep much state around?
# [13:28] <RLa> other than between some draw commands
# [13:29] <moo-_-> RLa: I think context is only needed to separate 2d and 3d commands
# [13:29] <moo-_-> but the buffer remains the same
# [13:29] <Narcarsiss> thankyou,
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# [13:30] <RLa> i'm currently using tutorial http://www.worldwidewhat.net/2011/06/draw-a-line-graph-using-html5-canvas/
# [13:30] <RLa> but i want to do it in object oriented way
# [13:31] <RLa> so i'm thinking whether to keep reference to the canvas or the context
# [13:33] <RLa> of course, i could always get the canvas through getElementById
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# [13:37] <Ms2ger> You can get the canvas from the context as well, fwiw
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# [13:42] <RLa> hm, i think i will keep canvas reference and when drawing, pass context to specific paint methods
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# [13:54] <RLa> aww, forgot again that coordinates start from upper left
# [14:02] <RLa> wtf, no dashed or dotted lines on canvas?
# [14:03] <jetienne> RLa: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/canvas_tutorial http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/canvas/integrating/ 2 tutorials which may help you
# [14:04] <Ms2ger> There's a Mozilla extension for dashed/dotted line
# [14:04] <Ms2ger> +s
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# [14:07] <RLa> jetienne, thanks
# [14:07] <RLa> Ms2ger, would be nice if that was cross-browser :)
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# [14:12] <RLa> gotta go
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# [14:26] <Velmont> How do you guys solve the problem of many small items with margin: 5px; inside a wrapper with a background, and then removing the inevitable 5px borders on each side of the wrapper?
# [14:28] <moo-_-> Jackneill: font tag is kind of deprecated many years ago and ths is HTML5 channel? :)
# [14:29] <Jackneill> sorry
# [14:29] <moo-_-> Jackneill: start using a proper tag
# [14:29] <moo-_-> Jackneill: like <div>
# [14:29] <Jackneill> so if just make a label style=".." is better?
# [14:29] <moo-_-> if it's a block element
# [14:30] <Jackneill> ok thanks :)
# [14:30] <moo-_-> you can do margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto
# [14:30] <Jackneill> thx
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# [14:58] <moo-_-> how do I draw 1 px wide line in <canvas>?
# [14:59] <moo-_-> stroke seems to be reserved for object outlines and does not produce desired result
# [14:59] <moo-_-> line(x,y,x2,y2,color)
# [14:59] <moo-_-> is what I need
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# [15:05] <moo-_-> hmm
# [15:05] <moo-_-> I must be misusing it somehow
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# [15:06] <moo-_-> http://diveintohtml5.org/canvas.html#paths
# [15:06] <moo-_-> oh god sake
# [15:06] <moo-_-> need to add 0.5
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# [17:22] <midgard> hey. I'm working with contentEditable. If I set that attr on a domNode which has a link in it I can edit the link text and so. But in Chrome I'm not able to follow the link (I can do this with CTRL + MouseButton in firefox). In Chrome nothing happens. Is there an solution for chrome?
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# [17:38] <BrianBlakely> ppk: "HP http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/18/its-official-hp-kills-off-webos-phones-and-the-touchpad/ webOS. However, I do not believe this is the end of webOS. On the contrary, I think it’s the start."
# [17:38] <BrianBlakely> No, no it isn't Mr. PPK
# [17:38] <BrianBlakely> It's definitely the end
# [17:38] <Pomax> perhaps he believes in karmic reincarnation
# [17:39] <BrianBlakely> The article should be titled "webOS is dead, long live Chrome OS"
# [17:40] <BrianBlakely> The world needs a web-platform-based operating system
# [17:40] <Pomax> well.. parts of the world.
# [17:42] <Pomax> the best part is that in 20 years someone's going to suggest an OS that's not actually itself a program, but more of an API, with a shell to make all the functions accessible, with user and kernal modes, and people are going to call him a genius.
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# [17:55] <gde33> heh
# [17:56] <gde33> anyone know how the text on the black background changes color? http://blog.bittorrent.com/
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# [17:57] <Pomax> where am I looking. I don't see any black backgrounds.
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# [18:28] <Sembiance> So what are the downsides of creating tags in HTML that look like this: <span myattribute='hello' foobar='baz' class='abc'>test</span>
# [18:28] <Pomax> prefix data- on all your custom attributes, and it's legal html5
# [18:28] <Sembiance> I remember a while ago the whole 'custom attributes' thing choked in IE 6 or something? but are there really any downsides to this approach now a days?
# [18:29] <Pomax> don't, and it won't validate
# [18:29] <Sembiance> aside from validation
# [18:29] <Pomax> microsoft doesn't want people to use IE6 anymore. we can safely ignore it now
# [18:29] <Pomax> it even set up its own website to track decline in use, in the hopes that makes people stop using it.
# [18:31] * psynaptic is now known as psynaptic|away
# [18:32] <tw2113> i've been ignoring IE6 whether MS wants me to or not
# [18:33] <Pomax> naturally, but it's nice that they finally adopted a "ffs, stop using IE6, even we don't live in ages that dark anymore" attitude towards it
# [18:33] <Pomax> if your company hasn't moved away from it, drop everything and migrate, or leave a sinking ship =P
# [18:34] <tw2113> their argument is that that costs boatloads of money
# [18:34] <tw2113> and see: economy
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# [18:35] <Pomax> the counter argument of course is "you're right! better keep using it right up till the moment it's literally EOLed. A critical vulnerabily that'll take down your network because IE6 is no longer patched and will cost 10 times what it costs to current-browser-proof your internal tools is a much better economic strategy. chapeau."
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# [18:36] <Pomax> migrating now is cheap. not migrating and hitting a wall in about a year is bankrupcy.
# [18:36] <chromate> hello. i am looking for good reads on animation with Canvas. i am finding that it is difficult to fine-tune the animation because x,y coordinates can only be specified in whole integers, without floating points
# [18:36] <chromate> so my animation ends up clunky when rounded
# [18:36] <tw2113> i say let those companies suffer and agree to no contract work with them :D
# [18:38] <Pomax> tw2113, those companies are banks =(
# [18:38] <Pomax> chromate, canvas is not a pixel grid, though?
# [18:38] <Pomax> it supports fractional coordinates just fine
# [18:38] <tw2113> i find government sites are usually really old too
# [18:38] <nimbu> Pomax: yes but it is slower
# [18:39] <Pomax> that is true, and it currently lacks some way to say "force pixelgrid rendering"
# [18:39] <Pomax> very true tw2113
# [18:40] <tw2113> "please upgrade to IE5"
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# [18:41] <Pomax> chromate, I don't recall any off hand, but that's more because I don't do direct animation in canvas a lot... hopefully someone else has some good resource links for you
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# [19:11] <chromate> Pomax: the drawText functions don't take floats though, do they?
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# [19:13] <Pomax> fillText takes doubles
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# [19:50] <colinsullivan> Does anyone have any experience with the filesystem API? I have a FileWriter object (http://www.w3.org/TR/file-writer-api/#the-filewriter-interface) that is throwing a FileError (http://www.w3.org/TR/FileAPI/#dfn-fileerror) with code=11 which says something about a DOM error. The error code is not on that table, so i'm not sure what is wrong.
# [19:50] <colinsullivan> (error 11 is not on that table)
# [19:50] <colinsullivan> Also if there is a better place for this question please suggest
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# [19:53] <Pomax> make sure the server and browser use the same version of websocket
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# [19:54] <Pomax> also useful: http://www.w3.org/TR/file-writer-api/#dfn-invalid_state_err
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# [19:56] <colinsullivan> hmm, thanks i'll make sure it is in the right state, although I am pretty sure it is. I am not writing a file over a websocket, just grabbed the FileWriter from a FileEntry (http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/file-dir-sys.html#the-fileentry-interface) in a local filesystem
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# [20:01] <colinsullivan> Yep, it is in the proper readyState
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# [20:05] <colinsullivan> The error is: Error: TYPE_MISMATCH_ERR: DOM File Exception 11
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# [20:06] <colinsullivan> Code is here: http://pastie.org/2397790
# [20:07] <colinsullivan> I think I am just using the blob wrong, or getting the wrong data back from the server
# [20:07] <colinsullivan> wrong data type*
# [20:07] <Pomax> http://www.w3.org/TR/file-system-api lists a number of possibilities depending on which method invokes it
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# [20:14] <colinsullivan> Yep found it, I was trying to write the Blob URI to the file. Not the blob itself.
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# [20:18] <Pomax> heh
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# [20:26] <RLa> html5 canvas will use antialias?
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# [20:27] <Sembiance> RLa: doesn't it already do that with sub-pixel positioning?
# [20:27] <Pomax> essentially, yes. canvas is not a pixel grid, so it rasterises your graphics however it fits best
# [20:27] <Pomax> and coordinates are *between* pixels
# [20:28] <Pomax> so a point at (1,1) is rendered as if it lies between pixel 2 (position 1) and pixel 3 (position 2)
# [20:28] <RLa> i'm getting some horizontal lines with blurred edges
# [20:28] <RLa> what?
# [20:28] <RLa> why such coordinates?
# [20:29] <BrianBlakely> RLa: http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/canvas/performance/#toc-avoid-float
# [20:29] <Sembiance> RLa: Make sure your doing Math.floor() on any divisons that may lead to a non-whole number
# [20:29] <Pomax> it is too loate for whys, sadly. it's just how it works now.
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# [20:29] <Sembiance> RLa:: BrianBlakely's link is exactly what you should go read :)
# [20:29] <RLa> so Math.floor is way to cast float to int?
# [20:29] <BrianBlakely> Sembiance: check that link out also; it has a more performant method than .float :)
# [20:29] <Sembiance> RLa: the link from Brian is better to read :)
# [20:30] <Pomax> if you want crisp lines, start your drawing with translate(-0.5,-0.5
# [20:30] <Pomax> );
# [20:31] * ericduran is now known as ericduran|lunch
# [20:31] <Pomax> then draw using rounded coordinates. Math.round works, but ... | 0; is a LOT faster
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# [20:32] <Pomax> http://jsperf.com/math-floor-vs-math-round-vs-parseint/2
# [20:33] <BrianBlakely> Bitwise operators are faster than the native .round!
# [20:33] <BrianBlakely> http://jsperf.com/math-round-vs-hack/19
# [20:33] <BrianBlakely> Wrote that up real quick
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# [20:35] <BrianBlakely> But using no function is even faster (albeit less DRY waahh): http://jsperf.com/math-round-vs-hack/20
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# [21:08] <tw2113> afternoon everyone
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# [21:19] <danielfilho> hey, tw2113 :)
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# [21:25] <xonecas> C/
# [21:25] <xonecas> o/
# [21:28] <BrianBlakely> Does Android support hardware acceleration for web content?
# [21:28] <BrianBlakely> Do they document that stuff anywhere?
# [21:35] <Ms2ger> Depends on the browser, I guess
# [21:38] <xonecas> BrianBlakely: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=6914
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# [21:38] <xonecas> no the stock browser doesn't. The only browser to have something along those lines is Dolphin HD
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# [21:38] <xonecas> but it is only for honeycomb devices
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# [21:39] <xonecas> uuh, the stock browser DOES have hardware accel for honeycomb devices
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# [21:41] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: Right, I heard about that, which drove the question
# [21:41] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: I just have no idea if that is the case for web content
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# [21:42] <xonecas> I'm looking inthe android repo and it seems like there some references to this in the stock browser, so I'm guessing that if you arerunning 3.0 you can use hardware accel
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# [21:44] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: Question is, is it wholistic, or targeted (e.g. 2D Canvas, CSS 3D Transforms)
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# [21:45] <xonecas> I'm guessing wholistic, but I have no facts to prove this.
# [21:48] <xonecas> BrianBlakely: it is wholistic, it is set by a value in the manifest http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/application-element.html#hwaccel
# [21:48] <xonecas> so that the whole app can use.
# [21:51] <xonecas> While the github repo does not have honeycomb yet, I'm looking at the leaked version from xda, and it does have <application android:hardwareAccelerated="true" ... />
# [21:51] <xonecas> but who know if this is actually in the released code
# [21:52] <moo-_-> BrianBlakely: android 3.0 and 2.3 have limited HW acceleration support
# [21:52] <moo-_-> limited as in limited
# [21:52] <moo-_-> don't push your luck
# [21:52] <moo-_-> until daddy google say it's ok
# [21:53] <xonecas> moo-_-: 2.3 has better 3d drivers, but no accel
# [21:53] <moo-_-> xonecas: not even for scrolling?
# [21:53] <moo-_-> xonecas: I think it has
# [21:53] <xonecas> nope :-(
# [21:54] <moo-_-> I was browsing through stock 2.3 codebase on another day
# [21:54] <moo-_-> hmm
# [21:54] <xonecas> Unless I completly missed it
# [21:54] <xonecas> because I was looking for it when I got 2.3
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# [21:55] <moo-_-> yeah looks like only 3.0
# [21:55] <moo-_-> OTOH get a firefox ;)
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# [21:56] <moo-_-> hopefully someone does "Phonegap for Firefox" which would allow wrap apps in Firefox engine
# [21:56] <moo-_-> gecko
# [21:56] <moo-_-> as its much faster for A2.3 for me
# [21:57] <moo-_-> "Gecko Frame for Android"
# [21:57] <xonecas> moo-_-: I don't know what engine it uses but the MIUI browser is the fastest browser out there right now imho
# [21:57] <moo-_-> xonecas: all other browsers use stock webkit engine
# [21:57] <moo-_-> so IMHO is just "gut feeling"
# [21:57] <xonecas> the guys over at the MIUI team must've done something :-)
# [21:58] <moo-_-> xonecas: smoke and mirrors I say
# [21:58] <xonecas> Could be, I'm not that bent to go do perfomance tests :-)
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# [22:05] <trumpetmic> what's a great way to deal with the local storage limitations (userData) in ie7?
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# [22:06] <Pomax> upgrading them to IE9
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# [22:08] <trumpetmic> awesome
# [22:08] <trumpetmic> for users who aren't able to upgrade?
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# [22:09] <Pomax> you asked for a great way.
# [22:11] <Emperorlou> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4774172/image-manipulation-in-javascript-html5-canvas
# [22:12] <Emperorlou> Amazing post for drawing images with 4 arbitrary points. Check out the main "answer".
# [22:12] <Emperorlou> Its actually for doing 3D with a 2D canvas but the guy breaks it down so nicely.
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# [22:18] <BrianBlakely> Emperorlou: Shit, dat demo *bites bottom lip* http://raksy.dyndns.org/torus.html
# [22:20] <xonecas> trumpetmic:@rem has a good polyfil for that that uses cookies as an alternative
# [22:21] <xonecas> trumpetmic: https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/wiki/HTML5-Cross-Browser-Polyfills
# [22:22] <danielfilho> have you seem this? http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/
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# [22:23] <trumpetmic> thanks xonecas, is that included with the paul irish html5 boilerplate?
# [22:24] <xonecas> danielfilho: I was reading that too
# [22:24] <xonecas> trumpetmic: no, this is a polyfill to load if you need it
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# [22:24] <danielfilho> xonecas: that's gorgeous but I have problems on accepting css frameworks.
# [22:25] <xonecas> you can use yepnode (Modernizr.load()) to load when you need it
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# [22:25] <xonecas> danielfilho: I kind of have the feeling this is a mashup of several boilers and frameworks
# [22:25] <trumpetmic> thanks xonecas
# [22:25] <xonecas> trumpetmic: np
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# [22:26] <xonecas> danielfilho: I like the grids framework
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# [22:26] <xonecas> seem's nicer to use than OOCSS's grids
# [22:26] <xonecas> or 960 for that matter
# [22:27] <danielfilho> i've used 960 a couple times before, but usually, I use only a css reset.
# [22:27] <xonecas> I used to use a reset, but normalize.css looks really sharp
# [22:28] <xonecas> I have my own boiler, which contains stuff from a few others out there, but it is very much along the lines of h5bp
# [22:28] <danielfilho> I see
# [22:29] <xonecas> the twitter bootstrap gives you the framework to make your own twitter :-P
# [22:29] <xonecas> I bet this was used internally to make the new twitter
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# [22:30] <danielfilho> yeah
# [22:31] <danielfilho> I remember someone telling at a talk that they've made the new twitter using only the developer's api.
# [22:31] <danielfilho> like it's a 3rd party app
# [22:31] <danielfilho> so anyone could make something like that, or even better.
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# [22:37] <xonecas> yeah, they use a form of easyXDM to talk with their api using jsonp
# [22:37] <xonecas> really cool stuff
# [22:37] <xonecas> I've been doing a lot of stuff like that
# [22:38] <xonecas> currently xonecas.com uses a bunch of api's for content and can run in any static server
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# [22:59] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: What's cool about normalize.css? I saw the early talks, but didn't check in on the finished product.
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# [23:05] <xonecas> BrianBlakely: is not as obstructive, more lightweight
# [23:06] <xonecas> it doesn't strip browser default styles, it only maskes the default styles the same everywhere
# [23:06] <xonecas> so if I'm just writing a play markdown file, I don't need css
# [23:06] <xonecas> that's my reasons...
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# [23:06] <xonecas> I just recently made the switch, so ask me again in a couple of weeks
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# [23:08] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: I'll be sure to ;)
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# [23:09] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: Seems like I would still need a reset.. <ul>s typically don't have bullets, headings may not always have margins, nor <p>, etc
# [23:09] <BrianBlakely> So, might as well use a reset
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# [23:10] <BrianBlakely> I like that, with only a reset, all my content is completely, 100% bereft of visual styling
# [23:11] <BrianBlakely> IMO, there shouldn't be defaults at all. Every design is different, especially in the app age
# [23:11] <Lebannen> xonecas / BrianBlakely : having experimented with hw acceleration in 3.0/3.1/3.2 for web stuff, it does sometimes help, but can also be very crashy. Generally I'd advise avoiding it for the time being, which sucks :(
# [23:11] <BrianBlakely> Lebannen: Wholisitic or triggered? Thanks for chiming in
# [23:12] <Lebannen> both :) The browser, as opposed to the webview inside an app, does seem more stable sometimes
# [23:13] <Lebannen> but in many conditions, even translate3d versus translate can cause crashes in webcore
# [23:13] <BrianBlakely> Lebannen: Both? So.. uh.. what?
# [23:14] <Lebannen> BrianBlakely: maybe I misunderstood you - what do you mean by wholistic or triggered? I assumed you were talking about 3d properties versus the explicit manifest setting in an app manifest
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# [23:15] <BrianBlakely> Lebannen: I think we're talking about similar things - are all pixels sent through the GPU pipeline, or only those which belong to (for instance) a 3D-transformed element?
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# [23:21] <Lebannen> Good question, and one I don't know the answer to. My (limited) understanding is that a 3d-transformed element will be sent through the GPU pipeline, but I've just remembered that possibly the hardware acceleration flag needs to be enabled to trigger that
# [23:22] <Lebannen> Actually, scratch that, we were seeing the crashes even without the hardware acceleration flag. Hm.
# [23:23] <Lebannen> So not sure what the hardware acceleration flag affects - possibly GPU acceleration of even 2d transforms, a la iOS?
# [23:24] <xonecas> BrianBlakely: it's just a way of thinking about it, you can still "reset" some elements like your ul's, but with the asurance that it will look the same everywhere
# [23:24] <xonecas> isn't that the concept of a reset? consistency across browsers?
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# [23:28] <BrianBlakely> Lebannen: iOS only accelerates 3D transforms AFAIK (but the actual transformation doesn't have to *look* 3D)
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# [23:28] <xonecas> Lebannen: BrianBlakely it is wholistic hw accel, like iOS, everything visual goes through the gpu. Maybe there is some specific stuff for 3d enabled components... idk
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# [23:28] <BrianBlakely> xonecas: But iOS *isn't* wholistic
# [23:28] <xonecas> I was going by what Lebannen said
# [23:29] <xonecas> what I mean is that any app that enables hw accel in the manifest, take advantage of the gpu for any rendering, not restricted to 3d enabled componnents
# [23:29] <BrianBlakely> Well, to the extent of my knowledge, only 2D Canvas and 3D Transforms are accelerated in iOS (the latter, only in iOS 5)
# [23:29] <Lebannen> BrianBlakely: I'm pretty sure even simple translate() operations are hardware accelerated to some degree, compared to other CSS properties
# [23:30] <BrianBlakely> Oh, opacity is also HWA
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# [23:31] <Lebannen> setting properties like -webkit-transform-style: preserve-3d in iOS 4 definitely triggers some form of additional hardware acceleration
# [23:32] <BrianBlakely> Lebannen: 2D transforms are not inherently HWA, but it is faster than using other properties, because reflow is skipped
# [23:32] <Lebannen> Oh, good to know :)
# [23:33] <hober> mumble mumble
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# [23:36] <Lebannen> to sum up my more limited Android experience by example then, as I may be drawing the wrong conclusions: enable HW acceleration for the app or the view caused significant web view misdrawing (collapsing drawing, smearing) and later crashing - though this might be due to the view hierarchy setup - and use of things like 3D transforms within a web view or browser caused crashes, seemingly due to transforms of content still being loaded/drawn
# [23:36] <Lebannen> (blotting issues?)
# [23:37] <BrianBlakely> Lebannen: I'm surprised it's so unstable even going into 3.2
# [23:40] <Lebannen> So were we :( To be fair we only have 3.2 on one device so far
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# [23:42] <Lebannen> Not sure that 3.2 brought many fixes to the browser, though iirc it was supposed to add improvements to general hw acceleration
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# [23:58] <colinsullivan> What is the best way to convert a Blob (http://www.w3.org/TR/FileAPI/#dfn-Blob) to some sort of string (BinaryString, URL, whatever), then back to a Blob?
# [23:59] <colinsullivan> I tried using a FileReader to convert the Blob to a binary string, then using a BlobBuilder to build the binary string back into a blob, but it gets changed somewhere along the way
# Session Close: Sat Aug 20 00:00:00 2011

The end :)