/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-10-05 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #html5
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  15. # [00:20] <chovy> philihp: i'm not sure what phrearch meant by faking a url with history api.
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  30. # [00:43] <gavacho> people wondering about "faking a url with history api", the tech is called pushState. check out https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/Manipulating_the_browser_history or google
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  64. # [01:51] <hdtdi> hi. i have a question. if i have a website and on this website i have 5 short articles one under another wrapped in a div. is it appropriate to change the div with <section> </section> and in between to wrap every article with <article>text</article> i mean is this the purpose of these tags?
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  69. # [02:06] <chovy> hdtdi: article is used correctly in your example. section is up to interpretation.
  70. # [02:07] <chovy> I would probably wrap all the articles in <section id="articles"> ... </section>
  71. # [02:07] <chovy> just using one
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  106. # [03:40] <JonathanNeal> Good question from Ryan in ot.
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  108. # [03:40] <JonathanNeal> Where is dive into html5?
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  125. # [04:04] <hdtdi> chovy sorry for the late response :) and thank you for the information
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  135. # [04:29] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/what-happened-to-diveintohtml5.html ?
  136. # [04:45] <franksalim> and diveintomark.org? and twitter.com/diveintomark? diveintopython.org?
  137. # [04:46] <franksalim> JonathanNeal: ?
  138. # [04:48] <JonathanNeal> They're all gone.
  139. # [04:49] <franksalim> that doesn't look good
  140. # [04:51] <franksalim> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">
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  145. # [04:58] <ExpFist> Anyone know how to get a canvas to center itself in the div?
  146. # [04:58] <ExpFist> I've tried theCanvas.setAttribute("Align", "Center"); but not dice
  147. # [04:58] <Pomax> width: <fixed>px; margin-left: auto; margin-right:auto?
  148. # [04:59] <Pomax> although I half expect text-align:center on the div to work, too
  149. # [04:59] <ExpFist> I have <canvas id="aninoteCanvas" style="position:absolute; top:0; left:0; width:100%; height:100%; background-color:#000000;">
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  153. # [05:18] <ExpFist> Man
  154. # [05:18] <ExpFist> I can't get this thing to center :(
  155. # [05:22] <ExpFist> Oh that's why
  156. # [05:22] <ExpFist> It's not resizing
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  160. # [05:27] <JonathanNeal> I think I'm gonna clone diveintohtml5 and put it back up
  161. # [05:28] <ExpFist> Hmm
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  163. # [05:28] <ExpFist> When a canvas resizes why does it squish everything?
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  166. # [05:31] <ExpFist> Ahh answered my own question again, the dev was pulling the canvas
  167. # [05:31] <ExpFist> div
  168. # [05:32] <ExpFist> Alright I'll stop Ian Malcoming this chan
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  173. # [05:36] <paul_irish> hmm
  174. # [05:36] <paul_irish> a question was posed.
  175. # [05:36] <paul_irish> how to detect if postMessage can handle data and not just strings?
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  177. # [05:37] <paul_irish> wow ben alman wrote it a year ago https://gist.github.com/581030
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  179. # [05:38] <miketaylr> of course
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  181. # [05:40] <mike5w3c> man, after messing around some with trying to do post-processing of real-world HTML content with just core PHP, I'm wondering if/how other people actually are able to do anything useful with it
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  183. # [05:40] <mike5w3c> I mean PHP DOMDocument
  184. # [05:40] <mike5w3c> http://www.php.net/manual/en/class.domdocument.php
  185. # [05:41] <mike5w3c> though to be fair the problems I find are not with PHP itself but with libxml
  186. # [05:42] <mike5w3c> and I'm only trying to use do something relatively simple, which is, extract the h1-h6 elements from an HTML page
  187. # [05:42] <tw2113> evening gentlemen
  188. # [05:43] <mike5w3c> but the HTML parser in libxml fails to do the right thing with, e.g., <h3 id="normative-references"><span class="secno">8.1 </span>Normative References</h2>
  189. # [05:43] <paul_irish> mike5w3c: https://github.com/spk/html5lib/tree/master/php ?
  190. # [05:44] <mike5w3c> it takes all the content following that </h2> end tag and puts it into the DOM as child nodes of that h3 element
  191. # [05:44] <mike5w3c> paul_irish: looking
  192. # [05:45] <mike5w3c> paul_irish: yeah, isn't that just using Ed Yang's code?
  193. # [05:45] <paul_irish> sureeee
  194. # [05:45] <mike5w3c> last I remember, he said that code was still pretty rough
  195. # [05:45] <mike5w3c> "pre-alpha"
  196. # [05:45] <paul_irish> ah
  197. # [05:45] <JonathanNeal> http://diveintohtml5.info/
  198. # [05:46] <paul_irish> last time i was looking it seemed like nobody made good use of html5lib
  199. # [05:46] <paul_irish> which blows my mind
  200. # [05:46] <mike5w3c> paul_irish: my problem is, I am adding this to a PHP app that so far has no dependencies except on core PHP modules -- no third-party stuff
  201. # [05:47] <mike5w3c> anyway, what would really be great would be if libxml actually got an HTML parser that was capable of sanely parsing real-world HTML pages
  202. # [05:48] <mike5w3c> ...since so many programming languages have bindings to libxml
  203. # [05:49] <paul_irish> ya
  204. # [05:53] <mike5w3c> in comparison, I basically wrote the same thing in a node app using jsdom and Aria Stewart's HTML5 parser, and.. it all just works the way it ought to work
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  207. # [06:04] <paul_irish> mike5w3c: i'd love to start a wiki page on html5lib of ports.. you have that priv?
  208. # [06:06] <mike5w3c> priv for the wiki?
  209. # [06:09] <mike5w3c> paul_irish: priv for the wiki?
  210. # [06:09] <paul_irish> ya
  211. # [06:09] <paul_irish> looks like a bunch in #whatwg do
  212. # [06:09] <mike5w3c> I think I might but probably quicker to ask on #whatwg during EU working hours
  213. # [06:10] <mike5w3c> or just ping Hixie there
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  215. # [06:11] <mike5w3c> hmm, yeah, I don't have admin perms myself
  216. # [06:12] <paul_irish> k np.
  217. # [06:12] <mike5w3c> oh, you mean for the html5lib wiki
  218. # [06:12] <mike5w3c> I thought you meant wiki.whatwg.org
  219. # [06:12] <mike5w3c> lemme check the other
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  221. # [06:15] <mike5w3c> hmm, I'm not even listed there now.. but I could have sworn I had commit perms to the repo before
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  237. # [06:45] <JonathanNeal> And http://www.diveinto.org/
  238. # [06:45] <JonathanNeal> woot
  239. # [06:46] <JonathanNeal> I hope you guys can help maintain this.
  240. # [06:49] <ryanseddon> Can html5 do this! http://vimeo.com/28781718
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  242. # [06:54] <tw2113> isn't that coming in html6 ryanseddon ?
  243. # [06:55] <ryanseddon> yeah it's the IRL API
  244. # [06:56] <tw2113> damn, no json support though
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  250. # [07:14] <franksalim> JonathanNeal: diveintopython3? diveintoaccessibility? diveintogreasemonkey?
  251. # [07:15] <JonathanNeal> we can put them all up
  252. # [07:15] <JonathanNeal> just someone forward me a git
  253. # [07:15] <JonathanNeal> or anything
  254. # [07:15] <JonathanNeal> i've got the space and bandwidth
  255. # [07:16] <franksalim> i'm hoping this guy comes back
  256. # [07:17] <franksalim> what with him being my hero and all
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  262. # [07:36] <JonathanNeal> franksalim: http://www.diveinto.org/python3/
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  275. # [08:11] <Pomax> there is no python 3, only python 3000
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  306. # [09:28] <franksalim> anybody know the status of the requestFileSystem API?
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  321. # [10:10] <mike5w3c> franksalim: you mean implementation status?
  322. # [10:10] <moo-_-> does anyone know where to download old Chrome/Chromium builds for OSX
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  324. # [10:13] <franksalim> mike5w3c: yes, or an implementor attitude summary :) Like, is this something that is happening?
  325. # [10:14] <mike5w3c> I've not seen any discussion of it for quite a while
  326. # [10:14] <mike5w3c> I think it's kind of on the back burner for now
  327. # [10:14] <franksalim> mike5w3c: k. thanks.
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  367. # [11:45] <Bacta> Where's Mark?
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  406. # [13:12] <jetienne_> Why is Mark ?
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  413. # [13:23] <xec> Who is Mark?
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  415. # [13:24] <mzulinsky> unique graphic design psd od websites for sale! Cheap!
  416. # [13:25] <xec> Get your cheap look for a cheap price! Buy now! :D
  417. # [13:26] <f0f> do they come wrapped?
  418. # [13:27] <xec> And more importantly, can you order them to go?
  419. # [13:29] <xec> What exactly is an overdose website anyway
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  497. # [16:13] <iaincarsberg> Hey, is it possible to have multiple manifest files for one page, if have a central manifest file, that downloads and processes chained manifests?
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  545. # [17:23] <JonathanNeal> mornin'!
  546. # [17:24] <BrianBlakely> Hiya Joneal
  547. # [17:24] <BrianBlakely> JoNeal
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  551. # [17:26] <JonathanNeal> Hi
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  566. # [17:51] <rupl> JonathanNeal: good morning!
  567. # [18:01] <rupl> Is there any way (other than blindly guessing) to debug 3D transform painting issues in Chrome? http://css3playground.com/tile.php
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  569. # [18:04] <JonathanNeal> mornin to you too rupl :)
  570. # [18:05] <rupl> JonathanNeal: saw you made html5weekly, nice job1
  571. # [18:05] <JonathanNeal> Who does html5 weekly?
  572. # [18:05] <rupl> dunno
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  575. # [18:06] <JonathanNeal> Yea, they posted two of my links, so I figured they were one of you guys.
  576. # [18:06] <JonathanNeal> I'm actually looking for the guy who redesigned the developers html5 spec.
  577. # [18:06] <JonathanNeal> http://developers.whatwg.org/
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  579. # [18:07] <JonathanNeal> ben shwarz I think
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  602. # [18:45] <phrearch> ow sweet, latest opera has history api support
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  604. # [18:45] <longtheta> look ma, no Flash! http://aprilzero.com/
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  606. # [18:45] <shwetank> yup
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  608. # [18:46] <phrearch> nice background
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  611. # [18:48] <phrearch> hm, finally websockets work by default in ff, opera and chrome
  612. # [18:48] <phrearch> http://hwios.org/
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  614. # [18:53] <Pomax> now if only the browser made websocket control immediate and transparent.
  615. # [18:54] <phrearch> its quite fast
  616. # [18:54] <Pomax> control.
  617. # [18:54] <Pomax> not "connection"
  618. # [18:54] <phrearch> ow yea, you mean like lowlevel control?
  619. # [18:54] <Pomax> I want to be able to see whether a website is using a websocket connection to mystery domain number X even if I am stupid enough to say "always allow socket connections"
  620. # [18:55] <Pomax> browser exploiting payload delivery over a websocket? why, tens of thousands of people of questionable repute are just gagging for it.
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  622. # [18:55] <Pomax> best things that's happening for web crime in years
  623. # [18:55] <phrearch> hm yea it could be a security hazard
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  626. # [18:56] <phrearch> that kind of info should probably be available in the navigation bar
  627. # [18:56] <Pomax> "could be"?
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  629. # [18:56] <Pomax> nuts to that, if I were a crimincal organisation I'd pay a few thousand dollars for someone to find me a way in to other people's machines this way easily.
  630. # [18:56] <phrearch> it got a bit better after the proxy thing
  631. # [18:56] <Pomax> heck, make it a black hat conference challenge.
  632. # [18:57] <Pomax> done deal.
  633. # [18:57] <Pomax> but yeah, just some controls that let me kill connections immediately when I want, that doesn't require going into an options menu
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  635. # [18:58] <Pomax> browsers are quick on the tech update, but very slow on the "oh maybe this needs some controls"
  636. # [18:58] <phrearch> yea, just some simple icon in the navbar showing websocket connection would be an improvement already
  637. # [18:58] <Pomax> case in point: still no actual ajax controls.
  638. # [18:58] <Pomax> how long have we been using that?
  639. # [18:58] <phrearch> there is the console for the curious
  640. # [18:59] <Pomax> there is always a way for the curious
  641. # [18:59] <Pomax> the curious don't ruin the internet.
  642. # [18:59] <Pomax> the masses do.
  643. # [18:59] <phrearch> i would be happy to learn from the first reallife websocket exploit
  644. # [19:00] <Pomax> I would be happier if before that happens, I can already control websocket connections straight from the main UI =)
  645. # [19:00] <niftylettuce_> ?g aurgasm cinematic orchestra
  646. # [19:00] <bot-t> niftylettuce_, Aurgasm ยป The Cinematic Orchestra - http://aurgasm.us/2004/09/the-cinematic-orchestra/
  647. # [19:00] <phrearch> absolutely
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  650. # [19:01] <phrearch> i dont have to build a banking site on top of websockets though. just testing some cool new browser features :)
  651. # [19:01] <Pomax> you don't have to, but guess what's going to get billed as the next, more secure, connection type ;)
  652. # [19:02] <Pomax> you know someone's going to, and you know people are going to believe it, and you know someone's going to lose their life's savings =)
  653. # [19:02] <phrearch> haha yea
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  656. # [19:04] <phrearch> i guess its not a big issue, unless you work with sensitive information
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  659. # [19:06] <phrearch> good thing about websockets is that it reduces traffic i suppose
  660. # [19:06] <phrearch> no needless headers anymore :)
  661. # [19:07] <jetienne> phrearch: it is much much better for latency. this is the big thing
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  663. # [19:07] <jetienne> phrearch: you can do first personn shooter and all
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  666. # [19:07] <phrearch> jetienne: yea i totally agree, but for shooters udp may be better
  667. # [19:08] <phrearch> not sure if thats going to be in a browser soon
  668. # [19:08] <jetienne> udp got a historical advantage.
  669. # [19:08] <jetienne> this is usefull in this case IIF you got packet loss on your link
  670. # [19:08] <jetienne> so it is real on mobile, or wifi. but not really on wire
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  672. # [19:09] <phrearch> yea, for stuff like player movement its better to have udp
  673. # [19:10] <phrearch> but tcp should work fine as well. hell, i cant even make a game. what am i talking about :)
  674. # [19:10] <jetienne> http://buddymaze.com is on websocket
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  676. # [19:10] <jetienne> i should complete this... and add the mouse lock :)
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  678. # [19:11] <jetienne> it works well if you are near paris, as the server is in paris
  679. # [19:11] <jetienne> paris to paris ping 24ms... pretty good for tcp websocket
  680. # [19:11] <phrearch> wow cool
  681. # [19:11] <phrearch> is that multiplayer?
  682. # [19:11] <jetienne> seatle to paris ping is like 160ms... a lot longer :)
  683. # [19:11] <jetienne> phrearch: yep
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  686. # [19:12] <phrearch> lol
  687. # [19:12] <phrearch> i thought a plane was above my appartment, but its just my gpu fan turning on
  688. # [19:13] <jetienne> hehe
  689. # [19:13] <jetienne> phrearch: you got a macbook ?
  690. # [19:13] <phrearch> nah, some custom pc desktop
  691. # [19:13] <phrearch> wish i had one
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  693. # [19:13] <Pomax> it was the sound of a websocket passing by
  694. # [19:13] <jetienne> phrearch: macbook got super hot on webgl stuff
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  697. # [19:13] <jetienne> the dopler of the packets :)
  698. # [19:13] <Pomax> oh crap, completely forgot to add a license to fontmetrics.js
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  700. # [19:14] <phrearch> ive got some nvidia
  701. # [19:15] <jetienne> phrearch: this is on a old game engine of mine. im rewriting it now. much cleaner. second pass is always cleaner:)
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  703. # [19:15] <phrearch> yea, well nice work on the first pass already
  704. # [19:15] <phrearch> webgl is quite difficult
  705. # [19:16] <phrearch> im following it a bit, but its too difficult yet, and got no usecase either
  706. # [19:16] <phrearch> however, would like to create a webgl mmog one day ;)
  707. # [19:16] <jetienne> phrearch: it is. but a nice anecdote. this is in a webgl meeting. somebody asked "who did his first stuff directly in webgl", a bunch of hands go up.... "who will use a library on the second ?" ALL the hands go up :)
  708. # [19:16] <jetienne> phrearch: so the moral is "use a library"
  709. # [19:17] <phrearch> yea, orientating a bit, but none of them is really complete
  710. # [19:17] <phrearch> nothing like ogre yet at least :)
  711. # [19:17] <phrearch> three.js and glge seem interesting
  712. # [19:17] <jetienne> phrearch: i use three.js is it doing webgl very nicely
  713. # [19:17] <phrearch> ah cool
  714. # [19:17] <jetienne> phrearch: even writing tutorials for it :)
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  718. # [19:20] <phrearch> hm, will keep an eye on three.js . got to go now. pubtime
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  720. # [19:22] <jetienne> pubimte goodtime :)
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  763. # [20:15] <level09> hey everyone :)
  764. # [20:17] <level09> if I want to add html5 fallback for my flash video player, should I add video tag after my flash object tag or before ?
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  766. # [20:18] <tw2113> i believe the flash fallback goes in between the video tags
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  773. # [20:24] <aidalgol> How do I place (certain) block-level elements horizontally, rather than the default vertically?
  774. # [20:25] <Dorward> aidalgol: CSS display property
  775. # [20:25] <aidalgol> Dorward: I'm looking at that right now. I don't want a float, because that messes up the layout (for my situation).
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  778. # [20:27] <level09> thanks
  779. # [20:27] <tw2113> display inline-block i think
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  781. # [20:31] <hardfire> aidalgol, tw2113 yeah inline-block should do the trick
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  799. # [20:44] <aidalgol> tw2113, hardfire: Thanks! That did it.
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  807. # [20:50] <level09> however, I want to my flash player to fallback to html5
  808. # [20:50] <level09> :D
  809. # [20:51] <level09> how do I arrange the tags in this case
  810. # [20:51] <Pomax> well, you start by ditching flash entirely... =P
  811. # [20:53] <tw2113> +1
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  813. # [20:53] <tw2113> not sure why anyone would want that order
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  815. # [20:58] <chovy> level09: you want flash to take priority over html5?
  816. # [20:58] <level09> yes
  817. # [20:59] <chovy> usually it's the other way around.
  818. # [20:59] <level09> I know
  819. # [20:59] <chovy> why?
  820. # [20:59] <level09> in my case
  821. # [20:59] <level09> we have double click preroll ads
  822. # [20:59] <level09> that generates $
  823. # [20:59] <Pomax> you are the scourge of the internet.
  824. # [20:59] <level09> we just need to support iOS devices
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  826. # [20:59] <level09> HTML5 video still needs a lot of work
  827. # [20:59] <level09> streaming, security, embedding, ads etc ..
  828. # [21:00] <level09> that's why youtube defaults to flash
  829. # [21:00] <level09> not that I hate html5 video or anything :D
  830. # [21:00] <level09> it is way easier than swfobjects and all that bullshit
  831. # [21:00] <level09> :D
  832. # [21:01] <level09> anyway, I found a small snippet that does iOS detection
  833. # [21:01] <level09> seems like a good way to go
  834. # [21:01] <level09> :)
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  842. # [21:10] <tw2113> Pomax wanna know the best thing that Flash has ever produced?
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  847. # [21:14] <Pomax> a counter movement?
  848. # [21:14] <tw2113> user created comics
  849. # [21:15] <Pomax> I believe you'll find those existed before flash did.
  850. # [21:15] <Pomax> but yes, of course as a vector animation thing, flash is fine.
  851. # [21:15] <Pomax> that's what it's for.
  852. # [21:15] <tw2113> animated ones though?
  853. # [21:16] <Pomax> as a lockdown around video, it's a bloody nuisance.
  854. # [21:16] <Pomax> and as a lockdown around all content, whoever uses it should have been shot years ago.
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  856. # [21:17] <JonathanNeal> anyone have an opinion on the potential "modern" formatting @ http://www.diveinto.org/html5/modern.index.html ?
  857. # [21:17] <JonathanNeal> The goal will be readability like the whatwg web developer's spec, and be friendly to access from smart phones.
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  859. # [21:20] <tantek> JonathanNeal - will there be updates to the contents as well? As HTML5 evolves, I think that's a much bigger concern than "formatting" - that is, such a widely used reference falling out of date with respect to the standards.
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  861. # [21:21] <JonathanNeal> tantek: that's precisely my goal for the project, and I'm glad you share that concern. This "modern" design has little to do with that, except to improve the page's accessibility so that it can reach more people on more platforms.
  862. # [21:21] <tantek> Example: http://www.diveinto.org/html5/extensibility.html says "a third option which is part of, and tightly integrated into, HTML5 itself: microdata." - microdata hasn't been "part of" HTML5 for quite some time - it's a separate specification that works with / on top of HTML, similar to microformats.
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  864. # [21:22] <tantek> I'd assume the pages were quite accessible to begin with, given Mark Pilgrim's background/expertise with accessibility (c.f. previous diveintoaccessibility.org and book Dive Into Accessibility) - were there specific accessibility problems you found?
  865. # [21:22] <JonathanNeal> Well, if that language needs to be updated, I would be happy to update it, you could also update it via git and make a merge request. You could do that all within your browser, in fact.
  866. # [21:23] <JonathanNeal> https://github.com/jonathantneal/diveintohtml5/blob/master/extensibility.html and click "Edit this file"
  867. # [21:23] <tantek> Ah very good. Is there a particular repository you prefer to have updated? I think I've seen several forks.
  868. # [21:23] <tantek> Oh got it.
  869. # [21:23] <JonathanNeal> When you're done, you can push the request change to me.
  870. # [21:23] <JonathanNeal> All within your browser.
  871. # [21:23] <JonathanNeal> And I'll update the site.
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  873. # [21:24] <JonathanNeal> tantek: yea in terms of platform accessibility, his site wasn't very readable on my iphone
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  875. # [21:24] <tantek> Ah, it wasn't futurefriend.ly then :)
  876. # [21:25] <JonathanNeal> No, but this is the future, and keeping the site relevant is the task.
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  896. # [21:58] <tantek> Thanks JonathanNeal, edits made to intro section of that file and pull request issued.
  897. # [21:58] <JonathanNeal> Cool. Now, it's a pretty complicated issue microdata and html. I asked the whatwg folks. This is what they said.
  898. # [21:59] <JonathanNeal> micro data is "part of HTML, which is what the WHATWG spec is called. It's not part of HTML5, which is what the W3C spec is called. The WHATWG spec also used to be called HTML5, so microdata was part of that. It also used to be part of the W3C HTML5 spec until it was split out by WG decision."
  899. # [21:59] <tantek> right
  900. # [21:59] <tantek> in the same respect, microformats are "part of HTML" in that they just use built-in attributes.
  901. # [21:59] <JonathanNeal> For all simplification purposes, I side with whatwg.
  902. # [21:59] <tantek> but in both cases, neither is part of "HTML5"
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  904. # [21:59] <JonathanNeal> Well, whatwg calls html5 "html"
  905. # [22:00] <tantek> since we're being specific about that
  906. # [22:00] <tantek> the book calls HTML5 - HTML5
  907. # [22:00] <tantek> readers don't know / don't care about specific unobvious meaning nits like that
  908. # [22:00] <JonathanNeal> I think this is a matter of living standard versus the w3 spec.
  909. # [22:00] <tantek> easy, living standard = HTML, W3C spec = HTML5
  910. # [22:00] <JonathanNeal> So, to keep it simple, why not say it's part of html?
  911. # [22:01] <tantek> so if you call it one, it's one, if you call it the other, it's the other
  912. # [22:01] <tantek> the book is "Dive into HTML5", not "Dive into HTML" or "Dive into WHATWG HTML"
  913. # [22:02] <tantek> I expect at some point there will be a "Dive into HTML6"
  914. # [22:02] <JonathanNeal> Doesn't whatwg pretty much handle html5?
  915. # [22:02] <JonathanNeal> I mean, w3 slowly just follows their lead, right?
  916. # [22:02] <tantek> no, W3C handles HTML5 now
  917. # [22:02] <tantek> WHATWG evolves HTML beyond HTML5
  918. # [22:03] <tantek> think of this way, HTML5 is a stable fork off of what WHATWG continues to evolve as "HTML"
  919. # [22:03] <tantek> and W3C is stabilizing that HTML5 "fork"
  920. # [22:03] <tantek> so that when people say "HTML5" it means something specific, rather than something open-ended/nebulous
  921. # [22:03] <JonathanNeal> Okay, so you would rather it went from "I want to focus on a third option which is part of, and tightly integrated into, <abbr>HTML</abbr> itself: microdata" to "I want to focus on a third option: microdata"
  922. # [22:04] <JonathanNeal> sorry for the HTML typo there, I was making preadjustments based on our conversation.
  923. # [22:04] <tantek> sure that would also be accurate.
  924. # [22:05] <tantek> note the minor tense fix in my patch to the point about RDFa as well
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  927. # [22:06] <tantek> I was trying to keep the intent of indicating some amount of HTML5-specific design/care taken in the design of microdata. But if you think that complicates the sentence, you can drop that phrase too.
  928. # [22:06] <tantek> As well as reflect that microdata used lessons learned from microformats and RDFa - which in the context of that paragraph makes sense. Just trying to be purely factual here, not indicating a bias.
  929. # [22:07] <JonathanNeal> Yea I reviewed your changes, they look great.
  930. # [22:07] <JonathanNeal> I'm glad you've kept up with all of this.
  931. # [22:07] <JonathanNeal> I really appreciate it.
  932. # [22:08] <tantek> It's a touchy area for a lot of people, and there's a lot of marketing vs. factual confusion, so my goal is to keep the statements in this reference as precisely factual as possible and minimize bias without altering the intent/content of the chapter.
  933. # [22:08] <JonathanNeal> And also thanks for letting me challenge your ideas a little. I wanna double-check anything I put in (which is why i'm glad other people are making the changes because it's impossible for me to really double-check myself)
  934. # [22:09] <tantek> right - as with open source in general, it helps to have a separate reviewer who has to understand the changes.
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  936. # [22:11] <JonathanNeal> May I ask you a question about your appending HTML4 to the note about class and rel, what does that clarify?
  937. # [22:12] <JonathanNeal> or un-appending, rather.
  938. # [22:13] <tantek> I didn't append anything, I just removed the "4" since that's not precisely accurate (class was introduced in HTML3, and thus microformats actually do work with HTML3 documents: http://microformats.org/wiki/html3 )
  939. # [22:13] <JonathanNeal> ps i pulled the request and updated the site, thank you
  940. # [22:14] <tantek> Great - hope that helps!
  941. # [22:15] <JonathanNeal> It does, and I hope this process wasn't too painful for you. I hope to be a fast filter. The site needs to remain updated and being a brick wall won't help or encourage anyone to contribute.
  942. # [22:15] <franksalim> JonathanNeal: now you're actively editing the books?
  943. # [22:15] <tantek> Thanks JonathanNeal - looks good.
  944. # [22:16] <tantek> You're asking the right questions, and it's good to have the answers on record.
  945. # [22:16] <tantek> (helps avoid revisiting later)
  946. # [22:17] <JonathanNeal> franksalim: yea, though the updates were rather technical. We updated an outdated google api that Mark hadn't gotten to, and now we've updated some of the language to accurately reflect the current state of things.
  947. # [22:17] <franksalim> and you haven't added anything to the author line? and you're making changes to a sentence written in the first person?
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  950. # [22:19] <franksalim> I'm sorry. This seems like a very aggressive fork
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  952. # [22:19] <JonathanNeal> franksalim: sure, do you mind if i ask you what you find aggressive about it?
  953. # [22:20] <JonathanNeal> franksalim: We have a few contributors and I'm acting as the editor, but I don't wanna put my name on it like I'm some kind of presumptuous attention monger. * By Mark Pilgrim and now edited by a musician :P
  954. # [22:20] <franksalim> removing the "HTML5" from a sentence doesn't seem like a purely objective, technical change
  955. # [22:20] <franksalim> By Mark Pilgrim with modifications from the community?
  956. # [22:21] <franksalim> Something that doesn't put words into Mr. Pilgrim's mouth
  957. # [22:21] <JonathanNeal> I think that's fair. I'm glad you brought it up before someone was offended by our move.
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  961. # [22:24] <JonathanNeal> I'd like to use the language "with refreshments from the community", I feel like modifications don't explicitly communicate that we changed language and updated things, modifications, to me, seems like we fixed broken images or something.
  962. # [22:24] <JonathanNeal> And I specifically chose the word refreshments because it's fun and keeps with the often fun feel of the project. What do you think?
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  964. # [22:25] <franksalim> it's a fun word. it has an overtly positive spin, and it seems to imply that a refreshment could not change the author's intent
  965. # [22:25] <franksalim> not that preserving the author's intent should necessarily be your goal
  966. # [22:26] <franksalim> you can fork it and make it say whatever you like, really
  967. # [22:27] <franksalim> i think the wording you choose is less important than eventually explaining the scope of the changes you have made and intend to make
  968. # [22:27] <JonathanNeal> yea, it's definitely a positive fun spin from modifications. Accuracy without making it look like it's frankensteined.
  969. # [22:27] <JonathanNeal> franksalim: yea that's a good idea.
  970. # [22:29] <JonathanNeal> Actually, the most "positive" and "accurate" word might be "with contributions"
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  973. # [22:30] <franksalim> Ok, if I'm going to pick nits over wording, I might as well commit. :) Contributions implies that the author is the gatekeeper of the content and can select and modify contributed material before including it in the document
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  976. # [22:32] <JonathanNeal> It's okay. I hope it's not too frustrating for you to share. You're "contributing" by doing this.
  977. # [22:32] <franksalim> In my opinion, it is most accurately called "a community fork of dive into html5"
  978. # [22:33] <franksalim> JonathanNeal: It isn't frustrating. I hope I don't sound too negative. I think mirroring this content at a good address is a valuable service to the community
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  980. # [22:35] <JonathanNeal> We should attribute the work in the manner specified by Mark, which is why I would want to keep the name the same and would prefer to alter the tagline if necessary, but not in any way suggest that he endorses us or our use of his work.
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  982. # [22:37] <franksalim> JonathanNeal: that sounds reasonable. I think you should almost exactly that on the table of contents page
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  986. # [22:55] <JonathanNeal> http://diveintohtml5.info/ --- how's that?
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  988. # [22:56] <franksalim> JonathanNeal: +1
  989. # [22:56] <franksalim> I think you want to capitalize APIs
  990. # [22:56] <JonathanNeal> :)
  991. # [22:57] <JonathanNeal> Oh, I did, you caught an early refresh
  992. # [22:57] <JonathanNeal> refresh again
  993. # [22:57] <franksalim> nice
  994. # [22:59] <tw2113> mmm data
  995. # [22:59] <tw2113> *noms*
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  1022. # [23:23] <chovy> JonathanNeal: what happened?
  1023. # [23:23] <JonathanNeal> heyo
  1024. # [23:23] <JonathanNeal> what do you mean?
  1025. # [23:23] <chovy> http://diveintohtml5.org
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  1029. # [23:31] <JonathanNeal> It's gone, chovy
  1030. # [23:33] <slbdp> what the
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  1033. # [23:35] <BrianBlakely> Discoursing with spec writers is the most exhausting practice imaginable
  1034. # [23:39] <JonathanNeal> I'm sorry to hear that, BrianBlakely
  1035. # [23:39] <chovy> JonathanNeal: is that your site? What happened?
  1036. # [23:41] <JonathanNeal> .info is my site
  1037. # [23:42] <chovy> JonathanNeal: .org had the same site on it.
  1038. # [23:42] <chovy> was that someone else's ?
  1039. # [23:42] <JonathanNeal> .org was the original
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  1041. # [23:42] <JonathanNeal> he did an infosuicide.
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  1043. # [23:45] <BrianBlakely> JonathanNeal: I sometimes feel, when reading said discourse and participating myself, that this would likely all be handled better speaking in person. Almost like reading a "Who's on first?" act :P
  1044. # [23:47] <JonathanNeal> Are you doing this on skype or via text?
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  1047. # [23:50] <chovy> JonathanNeal: he took a lot of knowledge with him. Any idea why?
  1048. # [23:51] <JonathanNeal> We had backups
  1049. # [23:51] <chovy> yeah
  1050. # [23:51] <JonathanNeal> Anyone know a great reading font available as a fontface kit for the web?
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The end :)