/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-10-31 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Oct 31 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [01:19] <jarek> is it possible to have non-rectangular button without the use of SVG?
# [01:19] <jarek> I mean button with non-rectangular click/hover area
# [01:22] <jarek> even if I set high border-radius value (so that the button looks like circle), the click area stays rectangular
# [01:22] <Pomax> border-radius?
# [01:22] <Pomax> hm
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# [01:26] <Pomax> jarek, what about using a <map>?
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# [01:28] <sappytree> dunno
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# [01:38] <jarek> Pomax: thanks, I didn't know that map tag has shape="circle" attribute
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# [01:41] <jarek> http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tryit.asp?filename=tryhtml_areamap
# [01:41] <jarek> meh, this is a bit verbose
# [01:41] <jarek> I think I will go with SVG
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# [02:42] <jarek> is it possible to detect when scrollbar has been hovered from JS?
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# [02:43] <jarek> I mean something like document.addEventListener('scrollbarhover', blah)
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# [04:44] <JonathanNeal> <marquee>
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# [04:46] <hkhalid> yo
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# [17:30] <hkhalid> sup weebles
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# [17:34] <hober> yo
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# [17:38] <hkhalid> hober
# [17:38] <hkhalid> what you doing
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# [17:39] <hober> I'm in the CSS WG meeting at TPAC at the moment
# [17:39] <hkhalid> with html5 though
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# [17:40] <hober> oh. I'll be in the HTML WG's meeting later this week...
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# [17:40] <hkhalid> i want html5 games for Android
# [17:40] <hkhalid> i hate java
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# [17:44] <hober> I don't really know much about Android
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# [17:53] <andrewjbaker> So Uint8ClampedArray is replacing CanvasPixelArray... hmm...
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# [17:56] <andrewjbaker> That won't work if we end up w/ graphics cards that are capable of storing color info. at >32-bit become commonplace. We won't be able to take advantage of the additional color info.
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# [18:02] <andrewjbaker> How do I go about making a proposal for an alteration/addition to the HTML5 spec. for 2D canvas?
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# [18:06] <hober> andrewjbaker: email whatwg@whatwg.org
# [18:08] <andrewjbaker> hober, thx dude.
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# [18:34] <sic1> Mornin yall! Does an image set as a background-image in css(or with js) get created as a HTMLImageElement somewhere?
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# [19:07] <paul_irish> necolas: over here
# [19:07] <necolas> hi
# [19:07] <paul_irish> necolas: just to confirm .. our concern is for the initial HTML that we ship
# [19:07] <necolas> ok
# [19:07] <paul_irish> as anyone opting into buildscript is okay with funky markup
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# [19:08] <necolas> yeah
# [19:08] <paul_irish> oh you gotta go?
# [19:08] <paul_irish> kk
# [19:08] <necolas> so are you thinking of dropping the build script from the default?
# [19:09] <paul_irish> havent considered that
# [19:09] <necolas> oh, i thought that was what you were implying
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# [19:10] <necolas> one of the benefits of the comment approach is that it doesnt affect the default html if you dont run the build. but yeah, it would involve a custom syntax.
# [19:11] <necolas> paul_irish: i'll ping you when i get home. im not wedded to the comments if there is some smarter way
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# [19:11] <paul_irish> right
# [19:11] <paul_irish> kk
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# [19:55] <d4rklit3> hi
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# [19:55] <d4rklit3> can i draw divs into a <canvas> and have them behave as an element normally would in <canvas>
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# [20:06] <Ms2ger> No
# [20:07] <hkhalid> any of you dudes making the games?
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# [20:34] <shawn_dones> has anyone seen a microformat example of a restaurant menu?
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# [21:11] <necolas> paul_irish: ping.
# [21:12] <JonathanNeal> necolas: accidental return
# [21:12] <JonathanNeal> how's it going anyway, ol' friend?
# [21:13] <JonathanNeal> Haven't chatted since the the early days of normalize back in ... earlier this year :)
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# [21:13] <necolas> JonathanNeal: hey man, good. how are you?
# [21:13] <necolas> i was just checking out your clock in ot
# [21:13] <JonathanNeal> Pretty good, pretty good. Married, moved, career shifted, living life.
# [21:13] <necolas> wow...just a few things then!
# [21:14] <JonathanNeal> Yea.
# [21:14] <necolas> hope it all went well. what's the career shift?
# [21:14] <JonathanNeal> It was a shift from web development at a big company, to web development at a small company.
# [21:14] <JonathanNeal> And working from home.
# [21:15] <JonathanNeal> You know what I think you or someone will eventually do with normalize? Make it so you can select which browsers you want to support, and download a customized normalize.
# [21:15] <necolas> oh nice.
# [21:15] <JonathanNeal> The docmentation is already there to point out which parts do what.
# [21:15] <necolas> yeah, not sure if they should do that though
# [21:15] <necolas> but i am waiting for the day when ie6/7 stuff can be dropped from it!
# [21:15] <JonathanNeal> Yea.
# [21:16] <JonathanNeal> That would change things like content: '' to downgrade the others.
# [21:16] <necolas> and would allow for use of 'font:inherit' to simplify a couple of thins
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# [21:17] <JonathanNeal> when was inherit added to ie? 7 or 8?
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# [21:22] <necolas> JonathanNeal: ie8 afaik
# [21:22] <JonathanNeal> bummer
# [21:22] <JonathanNeal> wish it was 7.
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# [21:33] <JonathanNeal> Ah - The value "inherit" is not supported in IE7 and earlier. IE8 requires a !DOCTYPE. IE9 supports "inherit". - ...
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# [21:40] <paul_irish> inherit has pretty spotty support. FF doesnt have it afaik
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# [21:41] <JonathanNeal> well there ya go, nail to coffin on halloween
# [21:42] <paul_irish> if anyone can add that to the MDC thatd be awesomemememe
# [21:42] <paul_irish> necolas: pong
# [21:43] <paul_irish> JonathanNeal: also yeah i think most tools are gonna need an option to say "i dont care about ie7 anymore"
# [21:43] <paul_irish> that allows a LOT of new features
# [21:43] <paul_irish> and less code/fixes
# [21:43] <paul_irish> and then again with ie8.. but thats v far off for most
# [21:43] <necolas> pretty sure inherit is in FF
# [21:43] <paul_irish> oh shit. i was thinking `initial`
# [21:44] <necolas> at least when ie6/7 are gone we can rock out with box-sizing for fluid layouts
# [21:44] * paul_irish rubs box-sizing all over
# [21:45] <JonathanNeal> that will be nice
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# [21:47] <niftylettuce> \o
# [21:47] <tw2113> sup salad?
# [21:48] <JonathanNeal> box sizing, min/max width, local storage
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# [21:53] <necolas> JonathanNeal: and inherit...but still no conditional MQs. sigh. 2020 maybe.
# [21:53] <JonathanNeal> yea and display inline-block / table / cell, etc will be more popular.
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# [21:54] <JonathanNeal> as designs similar to apps, cpanels, touch facebook, etc become more popular.
# [21:54] <JonathanNeal> those techniques will spill back over into traditional web design for sure.
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# [21:56] <niftylettuce> tw2113: nada, qdoba();
# [21:57] <tw2113> darn, now i'm hungry for 3 cheese nachos
# [21:57] <niftylettuce> i got wifi extender so I can reach campus internet from my.location
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# [23:07] <tantek> greetings - I just checked the logs for today http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html5/20111031 and noticed complete absence of any discussion of the recently dropping of <time> (see for background: http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2011/goodbye-html5-time-hello-data/ )
# [23:07] <tantek> does that mean that no one here cares about <time> so it's ok to drop it?
# [23:07] <tw2113> this isn't an official room for the specs
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# [23:08] <tw2113> i know there's #whatwc
# [23:09] <tw2113> bah, that's not it
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# [23:09] <tw2113> #whatwg
# [23:09] <tw2113> i was close
# [23:10] <tantek> tw2113 - there are plenty of "real world" web designers / developers here and it's a good place to get feedback / questions as a result
# [23:10] <tw2113> very true
# [23:10] <tantek> rather than deeply technical and often esoteric spec discussions ;)
# [23:10] <tw2113> i liked the idea of <time> personally
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# [23:11] <tantek> tw2113 - were you using it? would you have used it if it was more flexible per the proposals on the WHATWG wiki? http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time
# [23:11] <tw2113> ack, just realized it was you who originally asked too
# [23:11] <tw2113> shows how much i'm paying attention today
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# [23:11] <tw2113> i had it in my starter theme for WordPress
# [23:12] <tw2113> which is barebones at first and i build up into client projects
# [23:12] <tantek> tw2113 - apparently it's in the default theme for WordPress and was about to ship by default with Drupal as well.
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# [23:12] <tw2113> yeah, twentyeleven uses it a lot
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# [23:13] <tw2113> hgroup too
# [23:13] <tantek> yeah I'm a fan of hgroup as well
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# [23:14] <hober> i'm fond of it myself
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# [23:21] <drublic> tantek, tw2113: I like <time> as it has a clear semanic meaning. i think the solution you described on brucel's blog is great.
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# [23:22] <drublic> I think it's not the best just pick <data> as hixie did and drop <time> as it is used by twentyeleven, bostonglobe and others (e.g. my blog ;))
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# [23:23] <tantek> drublic, my blog as well. And I coded support for <time> in X2V (open source) and am running support for consuming <time> in the service dev.h2vx.com
# [23:23] <drublic> dropping something that's already wildly used is not good and gives people the intention that they cannot relay on what the WHATWG does… and that's bad for all the webdesigners
# [23:23] <tantek> drublic agreed. I was a bit surprised.
# [23:23] <drublic> tantek: yeah i read that
# [23:24] <tw2113> i would be more than willing to use it, if i ever got around to re-doing my own site
# [23:24] <tw2113> but i still need a finished design and that's my weak area
# [23:24] <tantek> drublic, are there additional <time> date values you'd like to use? like year-only, or year-month only or month-day only?
# [23:25] <drublic> tantek: at the moment i like the datetime-attr as it works as needed i think
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# [23:25] <drublic> i never used pubdate tho
# [23:25] <tantek> drublic currently the datetime-attr only supports date (YYYY-MM-DD), time (HH:MM:SS), and datetime (YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS).
# [23:25] <tantek> I've never found a need for pubdate either
# [23:26] <tantek> hAtom works fine and better lets me specify all the necessary semantics for publishing.
# [23:26] <tantek> s/publishing/syndication
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# [23:26] <drublic> tantek: well that's enough for datetime i guess
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# [23:26] <tantek> so the question is, would you use datetime-attr values of YYYY or YYYY-MM or --MM-DD ?
# [23:26] <drublic> no i don't think so
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# [23:27] <drublic> if i think of a wikipedia article with years in it
# [23:27] <drublic> it would be okay
# [23:28] <drublic> but i wouldn't use it for this
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# [23:28] <drublic> I like the usage of <time datetime="2011-…">today</time>
# [23:28] <drublic> as it is pretty useful for every newspaper and stuff
# [23:29] <drublic> tantek: would you suggest creating new attrs for <time>?
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# [23:31] <Snerf> is there a way, once I have an image on a canvas, to write that out to a JPEG file ?
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# [23:31] <tantek> drublic - no new attributes are needed
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# [23:31] <drublic> tantek: new syntax
# [23:31] <tantek> you could use YYYY per ISO8601 today
# [23:31] <tantek> e.g.
# [23:31] <tantek> I'm at the <time>2011</time> TPAC
# [23:31] <tantek> or
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# [23:32] <tantek> I'm having a good time at TPAC <time datetime=2011>this year</time>.
# [23:32] <tantek> or
# [23:32] <tantek> I'm speaking at the W3C Conference in Seattle <time datetime=2011-11>next month</time>
# [23:33] <tantek> no new syntax, just re-using more of ISO8601 syntax
# [23:33] <paul_irish> i usually put @pubdate on <ins> elements
# [23:33] <drublic> well, sounds plausible
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# [23:33] <tantek> paul_irish - the datetime attribute on <ins> is appropriate for that
# [23:33] <tantek> you don't need pubdate on ins
# [23:34] <tantek> ISO8601 syntax for years and months: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Years
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# [23:34] <drublic> tantek: so where could there be a use for @pubdate? I mean i wouldn't use it for dates in general…
# [23:35] <tantek> drublic - pubdate is a leftover from the days of when there was the use case of attempted automatic conversion of HTML5 to Atom.
# [23:35] <drublic> and I mean I'm not to much into the W3C and WHATWG processes
# [23:35] <drublic> but is there a way to just try and fail
# [23:35] <tantek> drublic - it's ok, process is often overrated ;)
# [23:35] <drublic> for instance with <data>
# [23:35] <tantek> drublic - I'm actually in favor of the introduction of <data>
# [23:36] <drublic> tantek: yes yes
# [23:36] <drublic> me too
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# [23:36] <tantek> I just think <time> is already more useful, more semantic, published, implemented etc.
# [23:36] <drublic> I think it's great
# [23:36] <tantek> I'd like both
# [23:36] <drublic> right
# [23:36] <drublic> with fail i ment… <data> could be introduced
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# [23:37] <drublic> and if noone uses it … drop it
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# [23:37] <tantek> drublic if you YYYY or YYYY-MM would be useful to you, please indicate as such with a +1 comment on their entries here:
# [23:37] <tantek> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time#year_only
# [23:37] <tantek> and
# [23:37] <tw2113> it's all data
# [23:37] <tantek> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time#year_month_only
# [23:37] <tw2113> the entire page
# [23:37] <tantek> (and more of the proposals if you feel like it)
# [23:38] <drublic> thx i'll have a look
# [23:39] <tantek> thanks
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# [23:40] <drublic> tantek: is there any voting system or something? I mean i like the ideas and stuff… but how can i support it?
# [23:41] <tantek> edit the wiki and in the discussion section for each proposal add your +1 / 0 / -1 and reasoning
# [23:41] <tantek> e.g. this section: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time#year_only_discussion
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# [23:42] <drublic> tantek: well I could do this. but i mean … who is drublic anyway!?
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# [23:44] <tantek> doesn't matter who you are - just offer an opinion, and with good reasoning, your opinion strengthens the case
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# [23:53] <drublic> 17SABTG9I: tantek? did that!
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# Session Close: Tue Nov 01 00:00:00 2011

The end :)