/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-11-03 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Nov 03 00:00:01 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:03] <Pomax> ryanneufeld, rafael.js or processing.js may also be worth looking at
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# [00:04] <ryanneufeld> thx
# [00:05] <keithclarkcouk> so, <time> :(
# [00:05] <ryanneufeld> boourns on that one
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# [00:05] <ryanneufeld> how is <time> not a good thing...
# [00:06] <tw2113> <time> got removed
# [00:06] <tw2113> keithclarkcouk is sad about it
# [00:07] * manuchill also
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# [00:20] <budmaddock1> ryanneufeld: When working with Canvas at the element level remember that JS conditionals can be used to repeat a command. Two lines in a for loop then would supply a chain link fence or graph paper effect.
# [00:21] <ryanneufeld> interesting
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# [00:32] <drublic_> hey guys! does anyone know if people in china are allowed to use google chrome frame or is the download of google products forbidden in general?
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# [00:42] <budmaddock1> ryanneufeld: If you use linux, bluefish might be an interesting IDE, and there is a list of others here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_HTML_editors There is svg support most everywhere, emacs editor, eclipse IDE, bluefish.
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# [01:01] <ryanneufeld> thanks
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# [01:04] <chovy> i used to use bluefish until I switched to a mac.
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# [02:21] <OzDave_imac> This guy meets a nice girl and takes her home for some horizontal folk dancing but he stops a bit of the way into it, sits in a chair and looks at her and watches, she thinks its a bit stranged but it happens more then once even three times, she stops him and says wtf is going on. He explains he calls it buffering and learnt this on the internet.
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# [02:22] <Pomax> RealMedia called. they want their joke back.
# [02:22] <OzDave_imac> aww :P
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# [03:43] <paul_irish> jon47.....
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# [07:08] <tw2113> any js people? i need some extra minds
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# [07:32] <tw2113> anyone in here know how to load js ad scripts at the end of the page and then move the results up the page into specific spots?
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# [07:38] <MooCalifornia> tw2113: your question is not technical
# [07:39] <MooCalifornia> just grab <div> by id and put it to the right place with jQuery?
# [07:39] <tw2113> but very frustrating
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# [07:39] <MooCalifornia> tw2113: jsfiddle.net or didn't happen
# [07:39] <tw2113> at least for me when i'm not much of a js guy
# [07:40] <tw2113> i also need php to pull the option from the backend :P
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# [08:01] <JonathanNeal> hello
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# [10:34] <ghinda> has anobdy managed to use script tags in underscore templates?
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# [11:31] <aQute> hi is it possible to get input from html5 using webcam ?
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# [11:34] <aQute> ??
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# [11:35] <shwetank> using getusermedia you can
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# [11:36] <shwetank> but its not supported on most browsers right now
# [11:36] <shwetank> you can read about it here http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/playing-with-html5-video-and-getusermedia-support/
# [11:39] <aQute> is it supported for chrome
# [11:40] <shwetank> and labs build of opera
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# [11:40] <aQute> thanks alot :)
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# [13:50] <nlogax> is there anything one should use instead of mutation events? i see they are all deprecated
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# [14:10] * nlogax writes some more Object.defineProperty(zomg, "lol", { get: function() { return this.fkgdjsnmbfkjdsnfs
# [14:10] <nlogax> sorry about that
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# [14:23] <kwgs> hello
# [14:24] <kwgs> is HTML5 fully compatable with IE ?
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# [14:26] <OzDave_imac> http://caniuse.com/
# [14:26] <OzDave_imac> see for yourself mate
# [14:27] <andrewjbaker> I think you mean is IE fully-compatible w/ HTML5 too. ;-)
# [14:27] <kwgs> yep
# [14:27] <kwgs> <- my english is bad though
# [14:27] <andrewjbaker> Where are you from kwgs?
# [14:27] <kwgs> kuwait
# [14:28] <andrewjbaker> :-s
# [14:28] <eighty4> kwgs: the answer is no
# [14:28] <andrewjbaker> I don't even know what language they speak in Kuwait. Kudos to you kwgs.
# [14:28] * andrewjbaker is reminded how lazy we British are...
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# [14:30] <kwgs> because iam trying phonegap+html5 , to develop a mobile applications , and dont want to install many browsers so i can check if its works or not
# [14:30] <eighty4> andrewjbaker: I'm from Sweden, we speak swedish. FOI
# [14:30] <andrewjbaker> eighty4, ^^
# [14:30] <kwgs> i want to stick up with IE for some layout testings
# [14:30] <andrewjbaker> Hej eighty4. ;-)
# [14:31] <eighty4> andrewjbaker: I'm actually going to Britain today, Irland to be exact
# [14:31] <andrewjbaker> eighty4, that's all you're getting tho'. That's the sum extent of my Swedish. :-p
# [14:31] <andrewjbaker> eighty4, ah, I hope you have a lovely trip dude.
# [14:31] <eighty4> Going with work, going to drink some beer, visit a studio in dublin and so on
# [14:32] <eighty4> Det kommer blir underbart!
# [14:32] <akamike> kwgs: You should really test in multiple browsers, not just to see if a feature doesn't work but to make sure it is still usable without that feature
# [14:33] <andrewjbaker> My Google translate-fu is fine tho'. I'm sure it will be wonderful. LMAO.
# [14:33] <kwgs> hmmm.
# [14:34] <eighty4> andrewjbaker: I'll have to start speaking slang
# [14:35] <andrewjbaker> -.-
# [14:35] * andrewjbaker makes a mental note that Swedes are a sly bunch.^^
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# [14:39] <eighty4> we're sly basters :D
# [14:40] <eighty4> basterds even, fuck you lion ><
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# [14:43] <akamike> Those sly Swedish turkey basters...
# [14:43] <akamike> Skimping on the gravy
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# [14:48] <eighty4> akamike: Sweden != Turkey foi
# [14:48] <akamike> chicken basting then
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# [14:57] <eighty4> You guys know who the swedish artist Robyn is?
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# [15:06] <mytoz> eighty4: yes
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# [15:11] <eighty4> mytoz: and you're from?
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# [15:12] <mytoz> eighty4: Sweden
# [15:12] <mytoz> :)
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# [15:19] <eighty4> mytoz: ffs
# [15:20] <mytoz> ;)
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# [16:49] <JonathanNeal> Mornin'!
# [16:50] <andrewjbaker> \o-
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# [18:02] <rabidchipmunk> Does anyone have an up-to-date scoop on subpixel rendering on canvas in Chrome (or lack thereof)
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# [19:19] <pixolin> Hello. I'm not quite sure if this question is more css- or html5-related but I have some odd behaviour with a <div> nested in <header>: If I try to position a <div> as top:0; right:0; within a <header> with a fixed witdh, e.g. 600px, the <div> is placed outside that <header>.
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# [19:20] <pixolin> but when I nest the same <div> in a <div id="header"> and change the css from header {...} to #header{...}, all looks great.
# [19:21] <pixolin> I pasted some html source code in http://pastebin.com/pVb73n9e
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# [19:22] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: that pastebin comes up empty for me, and what browser are you using?
# [19:22] <pixolin> uhm, yes, something must have gone wrong here, sorry.
# [19:23] <pixolin> I experience the problems with IE
# [19:24] <JonathanNeal> IE <=8 ?
# [19:25] <pixolin> OK, here comes another pastebin-link, hope it works now: http://pastebin.com/TNXzcgK9
# [19:25] <pixolin> and it was IE9
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# [19:26] <JonathanNeal> okay are you sure you're not running this in ie8 or ie7 mode?
# [19:27] <JonathanNeal> the only reason it shouldn't work would be if you're running this in ie7 or ie8 mode, in which case ie is failing to render the <header> element.
# [19:27] <pixolin> uhm, no, actually not. But I had a similar outcome in IE7 and 8, exceot I added the html5shiv.js there
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# [19:27] <pixolin> except*
# [19:28] <JonathanNeal> a shim must occur before the element is rendered, so put the js in your <head>
# [19:28] <JonathanNeal> I don't see a shim in the pastie you shared, although as a nitpick I'd close your </html>
# [19:28] <pixolin> I mean ... the css settings for #header and header are the same, why would it make a difference in the browser then?
# [19:29] <Pomax> were you using reset css, to make sure IE doesn't do interesting thigns for <header>?
# [19:29] <Pomax> *things
# [19:29] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: ups, sorry for the missing end-tag. I deleted the html5shiv to reduce the causes for the error to a minimum
# [19:29] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: IE6/7/8 fail to render elements they don't already explicitly understand.
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# [19:30] <JonathanNeal> For instance, IE6 doesn't recognize the <abbr> element, which means styling "abbr { whatever }" doesn't work, the same in IE6/7/8 for "header {}" etc.
# [19:30] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: I know that for those browsers the html5shiv in necessary to let them understand what's going on. But it is embededded with the conditional >IE9
# [19:31] <JonathanNeal> No, it is not needed for IE9, and when I viewed your page in IE9, it looked fine, until I turned in IE8/7 emulation/compatibility modes.
# [19:31] <pixolin> and the same error comes up in IE9, which can show the html5-tags to my knowledge and doesn't use the html5shiv therefore
# [19:32] <Pomax> just for kicks, hit F12, and check which mode IE9 is in
# [19:32] <pixolin> hm, OK, so it's actually fine in IE9 but not OK in older browsers, right?
# [19:32] <JonathanNeal> Double check your document mode, you can press F12 to bring up the developer tool and confirm this.
# [19:32] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: that's right, and it CAN be fine in older browsers if you use a shim.
# [19:32] <pixolin> Pomax: unfortunately I always have to switch back and forth as Win7 realy ... well, isn't good ... on my netbook. Will try later though.
# [19:33] <Pomax> if you can run IE9 on it, you can hit F12 for IE9 =)
# [19:33] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: so, as I don't want to give extra styling for tags in older browsers, I wouldn't use modernizr but html5shiv, right?
# [19:33] <Pomax> for some reason my router's constantly forgetting my DNS servers so I'm not resolving pastebins atm, but does your document start with <!doctype html>?
# [19:33] <pixolin> Pomax: will do when I rebooted
# [19:34] <JonathanNeal> Pomax: it does.
# [19:34] <pixolin> Pomax: yes sir, it does.
# [19:34] <JonathanNeal> I tested the file locally, I'm fairly certain his document mode is switching back to ie8, possibly because he's running the file from the file system and not a local server.
# [19:34] <pixolin> ah, OK, that might be a clue
# [19:35] <pixolin> I have a way moe complicated wordpress template online that I want to change into html5 but ended up with this problem. So I tried to strip things down and test locally first.
# [19:35] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: consider adding into your <head> <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=9"> near the top, by charset.
# [19:35] <pixolin> more*
# [19:36] <JonathanNeal> Also, like we mentioned earlier, pressing F12 in IE will open developer tools, and across the developer tools bar you'll see file, find, disable, etc, and at the end "document mode"
# [19:36] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: in html5 poilerplate it says 12. <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge,chrome=1">
# [19:36] <pixolin> (not complaining, just wondering why it is different)
# [19:37] <JonathanNeal> if the document mode is not set to IE9 standards, then you'll need a shim before you use <header> etc.
# [19:37] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: html5 boilerplate makes a great judgement by telling you to do that, so do that.
# [19:38] <pixolin> do I understand it right that "IE=edge" means something as "take the latest version"?
# [19:38] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: you are exactly right
# [19:38] <pixolin> always have to break things down a little
# [19:38] <pixolin> OK, I see
# [19:38] <JonathanNeal> that's fine
# [19:39] <pixolin> well, so far ... thank you for your kind help. Really appreciate it. Will reboot windows and try again with html5shiv.js
# [19:39] <tw2113> hi pixolin
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# [19:40] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: without html5shiv.js you can test it by adding one line in your <head> temporarily. <script>document.createElement('header')</script>
# [19:40] <JonathanNeal> that will shim the header element for you, which is faster than rebooting and downloading another js library, if all you need to do is test the shimming of <header>
# [19:40] <pixolin> oh, allow me a last question: when I opened the file locally (including the remote cdn link to htmlshiv.js) it took ages to load that file. I had the feelign it has some problems to read the script. any known issues there?
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# [19:40] <pixolin> hello tw2113, nice to see you here :)
# [19:41] <tw2113> always am here
# [19:41] <pixolin> didn't know that.
# [19:41] <JonathanNeal> reading html should be easy pleasey for the browser, so it must be the connection speed between the machines or the servers.
# [19:41] <pixolin> tw2113, the living wikipedia for web designers :)
# [19:42] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: but could there be something that the browser doesn't like the javascript ... for security reasons?
# [19:42] <JonathanNeal> Right now you don't have any js so i don't think so.
# [19:42] <pixolin> on the other hand the html5shim should be working in thousands of websites
# [19:42] <tw2113> i am?
# [19:42] <JonathanNeal> If you add just the one line I gave you, I would hardly foresee it triggering any security measures.
# [19:43] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: no, that was when I had the script in.
# [19:43] <JonathanNeal> if it does, almost any website would do the same when viewed the same means.
# [19:43] <pixolin> will try that
# [19:43] <tw2113> not sure how much security risk there is with some js telling browsers "hey, you can dress this tag up like it's halloween"
# [19:43] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: for the record, the html5shim should not trigger any security issues as well, which one are you using?
# [19:43] <pixolin> well, as I said, thank you very much for your kind help.
# [19:44] <pixolin> I just pasted the three lines from http://code.google.com/p/html5shiv/
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# [19:45] <JonathanNeal> oh THAT shim, pssh. I'm kidding, it should be just fine.
# [19:45] <pixolin> :-)
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# [19:45] <pixolin> I like that sense of humour ...
# [19:46] <pixolin> OK, time to try out your recommendations.
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# [19:47] <pixolin> see you later then ... bye.
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# [19:58] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: what's up?
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# [19:59] <tw2113> the rem shows up
# [19:59] * remysharp bows
# [20:02] <JonathanNeal> hey!
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# [20:02] <remysharp> hi - what's up?
# [20:03] <remysharp> i.e. I assume there's something specific about the shim - I added bdi and data the other day
# [20:03] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: so afarkas found some awesome stuff for printing html5
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# [20:03] <remysharp> is his repo updated?
# [20:03] <JonathanNeal> and there are new elements
# [20:03] <remysharp> yeah, I got bdi and data in there yesterday (or the day before - I forget)
# [20:03] <tw2113> *australian accent* and a wild JonathanNeal appears over in the brush, ready to pounce and discuss web development
# [20:03] <JonathanNeal> and a found a pretty easy way to do a basic innershim that will fix jquery and a lot of native dom issues in ie
# [20:03] <remysharp> that's already in all the google hosted copies
# [20:03] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5shim/
# [20:04] <remysharp> hmm - what's that PHP script?
# [20:05] <remysharp> I mean - I could guess - but I've just woken up from a nap from the little one :)
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# [20:06] <JonathanNeal> aww
# [20:06] <JonathanNeal> well, the php is there because the htc.php part is the part that isn't done.
# [20:06] <tw2113> remysharp something tells me you don't mind that too much :)
# [20:07] <JonathanNeal> basically, using htc to shim printing is waaaay better
# [20:07] <remysharp> tw2113: hellz no :) just now I've got dinner, take out a giant sack of baby poo and keep preparing for my node workshops next week 8-|
# [20:07] <JonathanNeal> there's no need to read the stylesheets or replace elements, so it's faster and allows the native dom to work the way it works.
# [20:07] <remysharp> :)
# [20:07] <JonathanNeal> the htc shims the print document
# [20:08] <JonathanNeal> i had to use php to server the proper mime-type, a lame requirement of ie for htc files.
# [20:08] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: it's looking pretty good to me - aside from the PHP dependancy (which I could be swung) - a lot smaller and tidier than before
# [20:08] <remysharp> not to say your code wasn't tidy, just a necessary move against the evilness that is IEsub9
# [20:08] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: yea it's really straightforeward, the new htc way and the brief shim takes care of a ton of major cases.
# [20:09] <remysharp> any particular reason it's a PHP script?
# [20:09] <remysharp> could it be another hosted file that's just an .htc file?
# [20:09] <JonathanNeal> yea it could be an htc file if your server served it as the proper mime-type.
# [20:09] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: this issue is very similar to chrome and ff when dealing with video, remember how they used to whine about the mimetype?
# [20:09] <remysharp> so it could be hosted on the google repo with the right mime-type - that's good to know
# [20:09] <JonathanNeal> same exact deal
# [20:10] <remysharp> any cross domain issues? i.e. remysharp.com reads the .htc from googlecode.com ?
# [20:10] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: precisely, and that would be good to test, some sites claim that the cross-original htc files don't work, but I saw an example of one on the msdn website.
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# [20:11] <remysharp> mime-types are a shit to set up in googlecode, but once done, they're done - so I'm pretty happy that could be sorted.
# [20:11] <JonathanNeal> I'm not sure if this is because they don't work and there are bogus examples of htc (probable because people don't really get htc files), or they do work and there are bogus claims of it not working because the real issue was the mime-type.
# [20:11] <remysharp> is that new code on a repo somewhere - or still WIP?
# [20:11] <JonathanNeal> that's why i've pinged you.
# [20:11] <JonathanNeal> i think it's time to look into taking the next step
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# [20:12] <pixolin> well, I wanted to let you know that the problem indeed was caused by the locally stored html file which was rendered in IE7-mode in IE9. adding 12. <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge,chrome=1">
# [20:12] <pixolin> solved the problems I had.
# [20:12] <pixolin> solved the problems I had.
# [20:13] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: very happy to hear that :)
# [20:13] <pixolin> <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge,chrome=1"> was the clue.
# [20:13] <remysharp> how much more testing does it need?
# [20:13] <remysharp> (html5shim v2 that is)
# [20:13] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: we could also shim createDocumentFragment, but when i tested different libraries that fail to append raw html5 strings (ala .append('<section/>') they worked just fine when i shimmed createElement.
# [20:14] <pixolin> indeed the locally stored html file was rendered in IE7-mode in IE9.
# [20:14] <JonathanNeal> that's up to you, me, and this chan, kinda.
# [20:14] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: yeap, i figured that once you assured me you were running IE9.
# [20:14] <pixolin> is this Remy Sharp who's book I'm currently reading (in German though)?
# [20:15] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: how should someone know such things?
# [20:15] <remysharp> pixolin: is there another Remy Sharp (that isn't a baby - http://remysharp.blogspot.com/2010/11/baby-loves.html ) :)
# [20:15] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: two ways... 1. similar experience, failure, and discovery, and 2. the community knowledge in this chan as well as html5bp, books, etc.
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# [20:16] <pixolin> Congratulations for the baby ... and thank you for an interesting read. Wonderful book.
# [20:17] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: yes, well, ... sigh ... anyway, I try to keep up (which sometimes isn't quite that easy)
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# [20:21] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: so what could i do to get the ball rolling on this?
# [20:21] <tw2113> would any of you know how to effectively load ads at the bottom of a page and then move them to the right spot within the page afterwards? I'm still trying to solve this one
# [20:22] <tw2113> i think i sort of had a solution with getElementById and innerHtml
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# [20:25] <tw2113> something like document.getElementById(“top_ad”).innerHTML = document.getElementById(“top_ad_loader”).innerHTML
# [20:26] <JonathanNeal> tw2113: or document.getElementById('top_ad').appendChild(document.getElementById('top_ad_loader'));
# [20:27] <JonathanNeal> that would actually move the element over, instead of copying its rendered html.
# [20:27] <tw2113> hmm
# [20:27] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: if you can confirm that the cross-domain works, then I'll get the files up to a repo
# [20:27] <remysharp> if it fails, half the internet will be after me, and I'll just say it was your fault ;-)
# [20:27] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: okay i'll stop being lazy and do it right now.
# [20:27] <remysharp> :)
# [20:28] <tw2113> remysharp i'll be a witness
# [20:28] <remysharp> ping me over twitter - I've got to shut this bad boy down and get on with dinners and housey stuff :)
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# [20:28] <remysharp> pixolin: - by the way - that link - that's the *other Remy Sharp* ;-) (but yes, I also have a baby too - confusing!)
# [20:29] <tw2113> i was kind of going "boy, remy's kid grew faster than he should have"
# [20:30] <pixolin> remysharp: congratulations! My daughter is 5 now, so we have gone through this time with short nights. But it's a precious time. Don't spend too much time in the Internet.
# [20:30] <tw2113> remysharp run while the coast is clear
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# [20:30] <remysharp> I'm not!
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# [20:31] <pixolin> err ...
# [20:31] <pixolin> :)
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# [20:33] <JonathanNeal> blast. IE requires that htc behavior files must be in the same domain as the HTML page which uses it. If you try to load the behavior from a different domain, you will get an "Access Denied" error.
# [20:34] <JonathanNeal> Note that the domain must be exactly the same; that means that http://www.foo.com is a different domain than http://foo.com.
# [20:34] <tw2113> i wonder if that's correctly done and everyone else is too permissive, or if IE is too security hardened here
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# [20:34] <remysharp> back but leaving - testing this irccloud business :)
# [20:35] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: k
# [20:35] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: also, IE requires that htc behavior files must be in the same domain as the HTML page which uses it. If you try to load the behavior from a different domain, you will get an "Access Denied" error.
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# [20:38] <JonathanNeal> same limitation exists in css3pie
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# [20:46] <cmaya0> im here
# [20:46] <cmaya0> for how long?
# [20:46] <cmaya0> swarms of deep blue sea as the ship sets sail
# [20:47] <cmaya0> inbetween the wires like seaweed
# [20:47] <cmaya0> tangled in the crossfires of nature
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# [20:53] <JonathanNeal> that was fun.
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# [21:15] <pixolin> uhm, it looks like I still have some problems positioning a <div> in a <header>, but this time the problem narrows to IE7.
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# [21:15] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: would you mind to take another look at my webseite, please?
# [21:16] <pixolin> site*
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# [21:16] <JonathanNeal> link me
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# [21:17] <pixolin> http://kindergarten-hampelmann.de
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# [21:17] <pixolin> it's the autumn leaves ... they are supposed to sit on the right hand over the slideshow
# [21:18] <pixolin> but in IE7 (and only IE7) it looks like the drop to the very left
# [21:18] * jacine is now known as jacine|call
# [21:18] <pixolin> ups, no, sorry IE8
# [21:18] <pixolin> IE7 and IE9 are fine (at least from what I can say)
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# [21:19] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: checking
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# [21:20] <pixolin> but if I press the F12-button in IE9 and set Browser-mode and compatibility-mode both to IE8 the <div> is thrown to the left
# [21:20] <pixolin> thanks
# [21:20] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: your elements aren't shimmed in ie7/ie8
# [21:20] <pixolin> not?
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# [21:21] <JonathanNeal> are not shimmed, and need to be shimmed
# [21:22] <pixolin> well, the <nav> looks odd, too, if I set the browser mode to IE7 but leave the document mode (is that the right translation?) in IE9
# [21:22] <pixolin> but if I set the document mode to IE7, too, the nav looks OK
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# [21:22] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: shim it first
# [21:22] <JonathanNeal> shim the page
# [21:23] <drublic> JonathanNeal: pixolin has the shim in it
# [21:23] <pixolin> I thought so, too?
# [21:23] <drublic> pixolin: try adding a space after the conditional comment
# [21:24] <drublic> pixolin: not sure if it has to do with it
# [21:24] <pixolin> will try
# [21:24] <drublic> looks like the shim is not working even if it is in the source code
# [21:25] <JonathanNeal> drublic, pixolin, kill the lt ie 9
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# [21:25] <JonathanNeal> kill that conditional comment, you won't need it.
# [21:26] <drublic> JonathanNeal: is an extra request for all "normal" browsers…
# [21:28] <pixolin> hm, just for the sake ... I'll kill it and see what happens
# [21:30] <pixolin> not really better, is it?
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# [21:30] <JonathanNeal> drublic: i say that because i'm wondering if a conflicting browser/document mode is trigger a false negative.
# [21:30] <drublic> JonathanNeal: oh k… sorry
# [21:31] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: everything looks fine except if I set document mode to IE8
# [21:32] <pixolin> let's make a popup screen with some advice to users with IE8 ;)
# [21:32] <pixolin> sorry ...
# [21:32] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: it looks the same in ie7/ie9 for me, but different in ie8. so it must be a css issue
# [21:33] <JonathanNeal> try putting position relative on <header>
# [21:33] <pixolin> excuse me, what is that please?
# [21:33] <pixolin> oh, sorry, ...
# [21:34] <pixolin> got you
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# [21:34] <JonathanNeal> oh
# [21:34] <JonathanNeal> display:block
# [21:34] <JonathanNeal> <header> needs to be display:block
# [21:34] <pixolin> header{width:960px;height:260px;background:#fff;position:relative;}
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# [21:35] <pixolin> hm, will try that
# [21:35] <pixolin> there you go ....
# [21:36] <pixolin> although I don't understand it at the moment
# [21:36] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: well, if IE doesn't know what <header> is, by default unknown elements are display:inline
# [21:36] <pixolin> I mean ... isn't that purpose of html5shim: telling IE how to deal with the new html5-tags and setting them to display: block?
# [21:36] <JonathanNeal> like wrappable with text, not rectangular and block.
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# [21:37] <JonathanNeal> shimming means the elements register, not that we determine how they should be styled, but i see your point.
# [21:37] <chrisdev_> Is there some kind of trick to getting HTML5 audio performance on Mobile Safari? My app's sound effects are always lagged and sometimes missing compared to desktop Safari
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# [21:38] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: again, thank you so much for your kind help.
# [21:38] <pixolin> drublic ... and for your's, too
# [21:39] <JonathanNeal> chrisdev_: in my experience the iphone audio is slower to execute commands.
# [21:39] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: glad to help you enter the world of html5
# [21:39] <chrisdev_> JonathanNeal: OK, good to know its not just me, its surprising that this is also the case on my iPad 2
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# [21:40] <drublic> pixolin: you're welcome ;)
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# [21:41] <chrisdev_> JonathanNeal: I'm working on my first production HTML5 game, and in although everyone talks about HTML5 being cross-platform, its been amazing to me how many HTML5 games don't render on iOS devices at all.
# [21:42] <JonathanNeal> chrisdev_: I think it can be done, but I've had particular issues with audio.
# [21:42] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: well, still much to do on that web site. Haven't touched the WordPress Loop yet (switching from id's to <article>). And once all is finished I need to think about a responsive design. But that's another story.
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# [21:43] <pixolin> at least a small step for mankind and a big step for me today :)
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# [21:47] <pixolin> OK, enough for today. Have a great day everyone. Bye.
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# [21:53] <chrisdev_> Anyone got a good pointer to a tutorial on using percentage font size for adaptive design? It doesn't seem to work the same as other elements.
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# [22:16] <chovy> body { font-size: 12px; } body * { font-size: 120%; }
# [22:16] <chovy> i usually set a top-level px size and use percents from there on.
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# [22:30] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: re: .htc from same domain - that's a blocker isn't it. People want real simple - one include, no brainer. wondering if there's a solution...
# [22:31] <krater> yes its real!
# [22:33] <tw2113> i wonder if the rem measurement was named after remysharp accidentally
# [22:34] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: yea i know, but css3pie has the same limitation.
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# [22:53] <chrisdev_> anyone know of a mac tool that will let you left-click on a png in finder and say 'convert to jpg'
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# [23:17] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: but css3pie doesn't have the same simplicity, nor probably usage
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# [23:18] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: i understand, htc is a big change and removes the ability to externally link it.
# [23:19] <remysharp> That's a real bummer - the code is really clean, but if it's at the cost of making it harder for the developer - I'm against it (for now)
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# [23:19] <remysharp> that said, there's no reason not to implement the fix that patches createElement, right?
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# [23:20] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: what about the normalize fix i threw in?
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# [23:21] <JonathanNeal> http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5shim/html5shim.js
# [23:21] <remysharp> ping me the url again (sorry, it's lost in the irc backlog)
# [23:21] <remysharp> beat me to it! :)
# [23:21] * remysharp reading code
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# [23:22] <JonathanNeal> none of that normalize.css will overwrite existing code.
# [23:22] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: that looks good to me - except of course I'd like to see the print shim inlined
# [23:23] <remysharp> which sucks - but keeps it insanely simple for devs
# [23:23] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: you're right, it's so much more complicated when we hijack the dom and rewrite the iframe.
# [23:23] <remysharp> the normalise stuff looks fine to me - always wanted to see display: block get in there
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# [23:24] <JonathanNeal> yea, i was reminded of earlier complaints about that today when someone failed to write the html5 css and thought the shim was a fix-all.
# [23:24] <remysharp> tbh it's something I forget from time to time - so I tend to use that as a qualifier :)
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# [23:26] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: isn't it just a case of inlining your .htc file in the shim, and hooking against the beforePrint event?
# [23:26] <remysharp> that also said...
# [23:26] <remysharp> doc.body.innerHTML += ''
# [23:27] <remysharp> I've got a feeling that will reset JavaScript
# [23:27] <JonathanNeal> remysharp: what JavaScript? We're printing. :)
# [23:27] <remysharp> something I came across recently - though it's so random, I'm questioning whether that's actually right
# [23:27] <JonathanNeal> Threre is no JavaScript in printing.
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# [23:27] <remysharp> is the document a copy when it comes to printing then?
# [23:28] <JonathanNeal> Yes, let me update the demo to demonstrate and event on an element.
# [23:28] <remysharp> a new window as such?
# [23:28] <JonathanNeal> One of the reasons printing needs to be shimmed is because of this, actually.
# [23:28] <remysharp> in that case, it's cool - but definitely worth testing the nuts off! :)
# [23:29] <JonathanNeal> Yea, and I'm not sure how to test its almonds really well.
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# [23:31] * remysharp brb testing .innerHTML borkshit
# [23:31] <JonathanNeal> I'm also removing the shimming of fragments, because there's no way to write innerHTML to a fragment.
# [23:31] <remysharp> ok
# [23:32] <JonathanNeal> You could only append elements to a fragment and modify those element's innerHTML, and they themselves would either be from the shimmed document or from createElement, boom, no need!
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# [23:33] <remysharp> probably because I've not slept much since the little man arrived, but I didn't really understand that - but I trust you :)
# [23:33] <remysharp> btw example innerHTML fun: http://jsconsole.com/?window.top.document.body.innerHTML%20%2B%3D%20''%3B
# [23:33] <remysharp> (completely breaks the JavaScript)
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# [23:35] <remysharp> ...or maybe it's to do with jsconsole (and another console project I came across)...
# [23:35] <remysharp> probably. ignore me.
# [23:35] <JonathanNeal> haha
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# [23:40] <JonathanNeal> I just did some of my own testing and it looks good, I found a way to break it if I don't shim the fragment so i figured it's not many bytes to cover the usecase.
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# [23:56] <remysharp> once you're happy, shoot me the file - I'll do some testing to, and then get it up in to the repo(s)
# [23:57] <JonathanNeal> Sure thing, I'm looking into compatibility with existing popular libs.
# [23:58] <JonathanNeal> besides jquery and yui, what else should i test?
# Session Close: Fri Nov 04 00:00:00 2011

The end :)