/irc-logs / freenode / #html5 / 2011-11-04 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Nov 04 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #html5
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# [00:04] <remysharp> JonathanNeal: prototype, yui
# [00:04] <JonathanNeal> prototype, okay. success in jquery and yui thus far.
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# [00:04] <remysharp> mootools I guess and, possibly dojo - bit of a challenge there for you!
# [00:05] <remysharp> I've not written any dojo in years
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# [00:06] <JonathanNeal> well all i'm testing is appending html5 into an element like $('body').append(html5)
# [00:06] <JonathanNeal> so that way the library has to create a fragment or holder element and I can see what happens.
# [00:06] <remysharp> yeah - simple enough
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# [00:39] <chrisdev_> anyone here work on mobile safari HTML5?
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# [00:44] <JonathanNeal> Well, it's working in Dojo too.
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# [00:57] <Guest5164> helo
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# [01:29] <tiglionabbit> How does a <video> tag interact with a web server? What sort of requests does it generate?
# [01:29] <tiglionabbit> is there a spec for this?
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# [01:35] <tw2113> ?g html5 video spec
# [01:35] <bot-t> tw2113, 4.8.6 The video element HTML5 - http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/video.html
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# [01:38] <tiglionabbit> thanks
# [01:39] <tiglionabbit> wait
# [01:39] <tiglionabbit> where are the actual http requests documented here?
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# [01:42] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: it links to http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/fetching-resources.html#fetch
# [01:42] <franksalim> as part of the "resource fetch algorithm"
# [01:42] <tiglionabbit> this page doesn't cover range headers or partial content either
# [01:43] <franksalim> there is a mention of range in the resource fetch algorithm
# [01:44] <tiglionabbit> I want to know what the actual http headers things are supposed to send are
# [01:44] <franksalim> it seems to leave some interpretation to UA implementations
# [01:44] <tiglionabbit> how do webservers know how to implement this?
# [01:44] <franksalim> The user agent may use whatever means necessary to fetch the resource (within the constraints put forward by this and other specifications); for example, reconnecting to the server in the face of network errors, using HTTP range retrieval requests, or switching to a streaming protocol. The user agent must consider a resource erroneous only if it has given up trying to fetch it.
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# [01:45] <teleject> Are you asking if the video is streaming?
# [01:45] <franksalim> do you mean what range units?
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# [01:46] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: byte ranges from RFC 2616?
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# [01:46] <tiglionabbit> I'm trying to implement the server side here
# [01:47] <tiglionabbit> browsers seem to do a lot of funny things
# [01:47] <fenjamin> hey everyone, i'm looking for some pre-build code i can just copy/paste into a website i'm trying to develop
# [01:47] <fenjamin> specifically, i'm looking for a document uploader
# [01:47] <fenjamin> something that can read pdfs and .docs
# [01:47] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: maybe because the spec lets them fetch "by any means necessary" :)
# [01:47] <franksalim> maybe they have a license to kill
# [01:48] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: does your server understand range requests?
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# [01:49] <tiglionabbit> aa, gotta go
# [01:49] <fenjamin> can anyone help?
# [01:49] <fenjamin> or suggest a new direction?
# [01:49] <tiglionabbit> anyway my server can do whatever
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# [01:49] <franksalim> does whatever include range requests?
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# [01:50] <tiglionabbit> I can do anything
# [01:50] <tiglionabbit> I just need to know what to expect
# [01:50] <franksalim> that's the spirit
# [01:50] <tiglionabbit> from the browsers
# [01:50] <tiglionabbit> they act funny
# [01:51] <tiglionabbit> they make sort of requests, two at a time, but then cancel them and request different things
# [01:51] <franksalim> they can be as funny as they like as long as they follow RFC 2616
# [01:51] <tiglionabbit> safari is the weirdest. It requests one byte, then various random byte ranges concurrently
# [01:51] <franksalim> your server should just implement HTTP
# [01:51] <franksalim> then it won't matter what browsers ask for or when
# [01:51] <tiglionabbit> sometimes I get a request with no range in it. I'm not sure what to do with it. It usually gets cancelled instantly by the browser though, when the range request succeeds
# [01:51] <franksalim> (presuming you have a complete file and not a live stream)
# [01:52] <franksalim> (that might be presuming too much)
# [01:52] <tiglionabbit> it's a live stream
# [01:52] <tiglionabbit> that is seekable
# [01:52] <franksalim> a request with no range is a request for an entire resource
# [01:52] <franksalim> a typical request
# [01:52] <tiglionabbit> it's annoying that it'd do that though, cuz starting and stopping the stream in different ways is expensive
# [01:52] <tiglionabbit> anyway I gotta go to the dentist :P sorry bad timing
# [01:53] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: good luck. cheers
# [01:54] <fenjamin> hello?
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# [01:58] <eddiemonge> why should anyone use <header> <footer> instead of <div class="header"> besides the fewer characters?
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# [02:08] <ryanseddon> semantics
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# [02:30] <echoSMILE> any relation between html5 websockets and node.js ?
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# [02:34] <JonathanNeal> woot, most libraries work with this alternate shim http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5shim/
# [02:34] <franksalim> echoSMILE: the response in #Node.js was humorous and accurate :)
# [02:35] <echoSMILE> :P
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# [02:45] <tw2113> anyone good with IE debugging for :before/:after + z-indexing?
# [02:45] <tw2113> in conjunction with jquery
# [02:45] <dilvie> tw2113: no.
# [02:45] <tw2113> drat :D
# [02:46] <dilvie> tw2113: what's your real question?
# [02:46] <tw2113> that is my real question
# [02:46] <dilvie> tw2113: oh, you looking to hire somebody?
# [02:46] <tw2113> yes, i pay 1 billion dollars too
# [02:46] <tw2113> per second
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# [02:47] <dilvie> in that case, yes, I am an expert.
# [02:47] <tw2113> and i'm not that rich
# [02:47] <dilvie> I am also a unicorn.
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# [02:47] <dilvie> for a billion dollars per second I'll look at IE bugs. =)
# [02:47] <dilvie> not a penny less, though!
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# [02:49] <tw2113> if you looked up sarcasm at dictionary.com, it'd show an automatically scraped avatar from my twitter account
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# [02:49] <tw2113> and then jacine walks in late
# [02:50] <jacine> oops
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# [03:11] <Mn3m0NiC> hello, could someone help me? how is possible to create such "double" input field? http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/89/forme.gif/
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# [04:21] <acidjazz> i like that name
# [04:21] <acidjazz> manuchill
# [04:21] <acidjazz> oh hes gone
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# [04:53] <JonathanNeal> ahoy
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# [05:03] <franksalim_home> hello
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# [05:06] <JonathanNeal> what's new?
# [05:08] <franksalim_home> watching a good talk about designing firefox: http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2011/11/01/talk-at-parc-designing-firefox/
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# [05:22] <ryanseddon> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isGf63qiisM
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# [06:38] <echoSMILE> to detect what a browser can use from html5, the best (aka easy && fast) solution is using modernizr?
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# [06:49] <ryanseddon> sure is
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# [06:49] <ryanseddon> if you quickly want to see browser support point your browser to haz.io or modernizr.github.com/Modernizr/test/
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# [07:06] <echoSMILE> tks
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# [15:20] <andrewjbaker> paul_irish, guess which channel ajacksified, author of those NewGame notes, is a member of?^^
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# [15:37] <BrianBlakely> LIVE HTML5 — erm, HTML: The Living Standard!
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# [16:17] <JonathanNeal> Good morning!
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# [16:26] <ghinda> what the hell is wrong with android? http://caniuse.com/#webworkers they had support it 2.1 but removed it?
# [16:28] <JonathanNeal> that's funny.
# [16:28] <JonathanNeal> in a sad way
# [16:29] <JonathanNeal> I've almost never heard of that. I wonder what happened.
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# [16:43] <BrianBlakely> ghinda: Don't worry - Chrome will be on every Android device next decade
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# [16:46] <ghinda> BrianBlakely: I'm not worrying, we'll all be dead by almost the same next year, so..
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# [16:47] <BrianBlakely> ghinda: You realize, you're implying you prefer death to supporting Android lol...
# [16:49] <ghinda> BrianBlakely: you can't mess with the prophecy, but, given the choice Death vs. Mobile Web Development, I don't know..
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# [16:51] <JonathanNeal> ghinda: by prophecy you mean assertion by an entertainment industry.
# [16:51] <JonathanNeal> :)
# [16:51] <BrianBlakely> ghinda: I prefer mobile dev to desktop, simply because ancient and gimped versions of Webkit are still more reliable than IE9 :D
# [16:51] <ghinda> JonathanNeal: what do you mean?! you can't diss the ANCIENT MAYANS!
# [16:51] <JonathanNeal> ghinda: what happens at the end of December?
# [16:51] <BrianBlakely> The ancient Mayans are actually the proprietors of the entertainment industry
# [16:52] <BrianBlakely> You thought it was the Jews all this time, but nope! :P
# [16:52] <BrianBlakely> Shock and aw
# [16:52] <BrianBlakely> e
# [16:52] <JonathanNeal> The year ends.
# [16:52] <BrianBlakely> haha
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# [16:53] <JonathanNeal> Last year, December 31st ended, and there were no more months. The calendar failed. We all died.
# [16:53] <JonathanNeal> Or ... the cycle had completed and it became January
# [16:53] <ghinda> ancient mayans = illuminati = bilderberg conferences = omaba = nwo, everything makes sense now
# [16:54] <BrianBlakely> JonathanNeal: Is it time for a Battlestar Galactica reference?
# [16:55] <BrianBlakely> Please tell me it is!
# [16:55] <JonathanNeal> Ancient Mayans used a astronomical calendar which dealed with a very large cycle. I'd rather appreciate their attempts to observe and understand the cosmos than our facination with death.
# [16:55] <ghinda> JonathanNeal: facination with death is still pretty.. fascinating
# [16:56] <JonathanNeal> yea, i think what i meant to say is "I roll my eyes at references to things which themselves claim nothing"
# [16:56] <ghinda> BrianBlakely: in the future, they'll have Android conferences, with everybody dressed up like green robots.
# [16:56] <BrianBlakely> I'm pretty sure the only reason anyone gives a damn about 12/21/12 is because the Mayans were right before, and the weird symmetry of the date
# [16:56] <BrianBlakely> Were the Mayans right before?
# [16:56] <BrianBlakely> That might be a widespread misunderstanding also
# [16:57] <ghinda> BrianBlakely: when were the mayans right?
# [16:57] <JonathanNeal> BrianBlakely: are you referring to their own annihilation?
# [16:59] <JonathanNeal> By the way, the Mayan calendar is based on a cycle that is approximately 35,000 years.
# [17:00] <JonathanNeal> Also, the Mayans still exist.
# [17:00] <BrianBlakely> I have heard several times that on special Mayan dates, significant things have happened (such as the first visitation of that European guy whose name I'm blanking on
# [17:00] <BrianBlakely> )
# [17:01] <ghinda> BrianBlakely: I think you're reffering to http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472043/
# [17:02] <BrianBlakely> ghinda: Haha, I knew where that was going before I clicked :)
# [17:03] <ghinda> BrianBlakely: it all makes sense if you think about it, jew/nwo/iluminati hating director -> movie about mayan prophecy -> end of the world mayan prophecy
# [17:04] <JonathanNeal> Their civilization fell to the Spanish, which came after a major drought.
# [17:04] <JonathanNeal> Based on the degree of wood they were using, many scientists have thrown out the idea that deforestation contributed to the drought.
# [17:05] <JonathanNeal> No water has a way of dispersing a people. The Spanish had a way of being a superior empire as far as conquest goes.
# [17:06] <JonathanNeal> Then HTML came and predicted Rebecca Black.
# [17:06] <JonathanNeal> Then, on the day HTML5 was born, I was there, FRIDAY came out. And that's why today is the last day of the end of the world.
# [17:07] <BrianBlakely> Friday, JonathanNeal? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113118/
# [17:07] <BrianBlakely> This one?
# [17:07] <BrianBlakely> HTML5 is older than I thought
# [17:07] <JonathanNeal> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0
# [17:07] <BrianBlakely> So is Hixie
# [17:07] <BrianBlakely> Oh-hooooo!
# [17:08] <BrianBlakely> I am older than I thought
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# [17:08] <BrianBlakely> Because I associate "Friday" as a work with Ice Cube and not Rebecca Black
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# [17:10] <BrianBlakely> This is kind of shocking: http://www.favbrowser.com/firefox-10-to-remove-the-forward-button/
# [17:11] <BrianBlakely> Doesn't this undermine the History API?
# [17:11] <BrianBlakely> Well, not entirely
# [17:11] <BrianBlakely> But now you can't quite rely on browser UI, you need to setup your own traversal
# [17:11] <BrianBlakely> Which is a touch suckish
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# [17:20] <BrianBlakely> Possibly the best thing ever today: http://www.p01.org/releases/140bytes_music_softSynth/
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# [17:21] <JonathanNeal> Awesome
# [17:21] <JonathanNeal> And it just never ends.
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# [17:22] <JonathanNeal> Oh, there it ended. Hahah 16:21:3
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# [17:30] <BrianBlakely> Haha, yep
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# [17:38] <ghinda> BrianBlakely: so much cooler, http://codeincomplete.com/projects/boulderdash/
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# [17:49] <chovy> howdy
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# [18:16] <ryan_stevens> what are the cons against using uppercase Function in javascript
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# [18:17] <ryan_stevens> so… new Function(' return function() {…. } ')
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# [18:19] <andrewjbaker> Upper-case function names are generally used to denote objects.
# [18:19] <ryan_stevens> its not an uppercase function name
# [18:20] <ryan_stevens> I'm asking about the cons of using the Function keyword
# [18:20] <franksalim_> ryan_stevens: same reasons you might not want to use eval()
# [18:20] <ryan_stevens> so not so good in terms of speed or security?
# [18:20] <franksalim_> yes
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# [18:47] <BrianBlakely> ghinda: But.. is Boulderdash 140 bytes?!?!?
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# [18:51] <ghinda> BrianBlakely: guess not, but If I ever time-travel in the 80s I'll just play the original
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# [19:11] <franksalim> what do people think about modal <dialog> in html?
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# [19:12] <BrianBlakely> franksalim: Is that an actual thing, or hypothetical?
# [19:12] <franksalim> BrianBlakely: proposed
# [19:12] <BrianBlakely> Is there a whatwg archive link abouts?
# [19:13] <Pomax> anything that means I don't need to resort to jquery is win
# [19:13] <BrianBlakely> Is that what it does? Creates a Shadow DOM'd modal?
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# [19:14] <BrianBlakely> Pomax: Do you use jQuery UI's "Dialog" module?
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# [19:18] <Conexion> I love CSS transitions. Makes developing pretty things for phones so much nicer
# [19:18] <BrianBlakely> In any case, I'm all for additions to the spec if it means applications will be faster and quicker to create. Right now, however, it takes me 5 minutes and 30 lines of code across all languages to do up a modal, so I'm not pissing myself for it.
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# [19:29] <BrianBlakely> It's weird how, because IE9 is soooo much better than IE8, people don't acknowledge that it's still *years* behind good browsers
# [19:29] <pixolin> how should the average user judge that?
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# [19:30] <BrianBlakely> pixolin: The average user doesn't even know IE8 is a pile of suck. I'm talking about people who *should definitely* know better. This rant inspired by: http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/collection/9806/2011_best_tech.html
# [19:31] <pixolin> just by looking at the icons I could spot a whole bunch of things that are far waway from beeing "best"
# [19:32] <pixolin> but since when do you take pcworld so seriously?
# [19:32] <BrianBlakely> pixolin: Right, granted, that list is full of shit
# [19:32] <BrianBlakely> Most lists are
# [19:33] <pixolin> well, journalists want to make a living, too. So don't bee to hard with them.
# [19:33] <pixolin> sorry for getting off topic though.
# [19:33] <BrianBlakely> Actually, I agree with most of the top 25
# [19:33] <BrianBlakely> But still, IE9? Internet Fucking Explorer 9?!?!?!??
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# [19:35] <BrianBlakely> Conexion: Did you see this? http://tympanus.net/Tutorials/OriginalHoverEffects/index9.html
# [19:35] <Pomax> you can diss it all you want, but IE9 is a pretty decent browser in terms of rendering your CSS and HTML right
# [19:35] <Conexion> BrianBlakely: Nope, but looking at it, I love it
# [19:36] <Pomax> it's still a POS for developers, but if you're going to support modern browsers, IE9 is mostly fine. Plus there's http://ie6update.com's solution to the IE8 and below problem
# [19:37] <Conexion> I'm actually using some similar animations on the mobile web app I'm working on. Great inspiration right there
# [19:37] <BrianBlakely> Pomax: To me, it's saying: "Look, you can do what you were doing in 2007, and it won't fuck up your life!" … if only I had a time machine.
# [19:37] <BrianBlakely> Conexion: One of the best gallery of CSS Anims I've seen in terms of sexiness.
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# [19:37] <Pomax> so what it says is "look, you won. we made a browser that does the same thing as everyone else. let's forget the past"
# [19:38] <Pomax> I don't care how bad IE5, 6, 7 and 8 were because they're no irrelevant.
# [19:38] <Pomax> if your corporate machine forces you to use a specific browser, that's your problem. at home you're now at least going to always have a browser that supports the internet.
# [19:38] <pixolin> my Windows partition complains it won't install the latest IE version as I didn't pay my tribute to upgrade to Win7.
# [19:39] <BrianBlakely> Conexion: Actually, check out the others there too; pretty brilliant stuff
# [19:39] <Pomax> so what, if you're still on XP you can just use firefox
# [19:39] <Pomax> if it's your own computer, you can use whatever you like.
# [19:40] <Pomax> from a dev point of view, I'm never doing IE8 or below tweaks again.
# [19:41] <Pomax> I am using that ie6update.com solution, and sticking with delicious standards
# [19:41] <pixolin> I wouldn't use Windows if I didn't need to check what my web site is looking at my client's computer, anyway
# [19:41] <Conexion> I'm so thankful I'm a mobile developer. I only need to develop for iPhone, iPad, Android, and then Opera/Blackberry is a plus
# [19:41] <BrianBlakely> Chrome Frame is where it's at
# [19:42] <Conexion> So I get to use all the newest stuff
# [19:42] <Conexion> Without worrying about IE
# [19:42] <BrianBlakely> Thank you, based Apple
# [19:42] <Pomax> that was my point. worrying about IE is no longer relevant, unless you're a masochist either trying to support stragglers, or you're a masochist building intranet applications for a big corporation
# [19:43] <Pomax> either way, it's now your own choice whether you want to get the headaches or not.
# [19:43] <pixolin> Conexion: I know, there are two jQuery versions for mobiles, but one is almost outdated
# [19:43] <Conexion> Although there are still minor headaches with Opera and IE8 :p
# [19:43] <pixolin> is jQeury obile the "right one"?
# [19:44] <pixolin> jQuery mobile*
# [19:44] <Conexion> I use standard jQuery, and mostly to speed some operations up
# [19:44] <Conexion> I don't use jQuery mobile at all
# [19:44] <Conexion> I like it, but it isn't flexible enough for our needs
# [19:44] <Conexion> All animations are handled with CSS Transitions
# [19:44] <pixolin> but there is a third version?
# [19:44] <ghinda> Conexion: mobile web dev is hell on earth, at least for web apps
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# [19:45] <Conexion> There are a few different ones, but most people I know use jquerymobile.com (or Sencha)
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# [19:46] <Conexion> ghinda: I would disagree. Once you get into it, it is much easier than say, handling IE6, 7, Firefox 2, 3, etc...
# [19:46] <pixolin> oh, I think it was jQeury touch?
# [19:46] <ghinda> pixolin: that's jQTouch , what you're probably looking for
# [19:46] <pixolin> uhm, but that's a plugin only, right?
# [19:47] <Conexion> jQTouch is nice, but we have a lot of custom stuff that we need that doesn't use the standard UI, so it just ended up delaying development
# [19:47] <pixolin> and jQuery mobile is a version on its own
# [19:47] <ghinda> Conexion: I got into it, for a while now, but just looking at the tables on ppk's website makes you go crazy.
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# [19:56] <Conexion> ghinda: Sorry about the delay. I would say not to worry too much about the table. There are certain events and certain features that are going to almost always work in modern mobile devices
# [19:58] <ghinda> Conexion: if you're only supporting modern smartphones, you're right. but if you want to support the majority: older smartphones, feature phones, etc. it's a nightmare
# [19:58] <Conexion> Like, for us, we only focus on the largest shares of the mobile phone market, and of those, only ones that provide touch browsing
# [19:58] <Conexion> ghinda: If you are trying to support old phone, then you're best off doing strict HTML 4 with almost no Javascript
# [19:59] <Conexion> And then you don't need to worry about the table!
# [19:59] <Conexion> Basically, as long as use proper progressive-enhancement techniques, you should be just fine
# [20:00] <franksalim> you're trading one kind of table for another kind of <table> :)
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# [20:00] <pixolin> btw, do most/all mobile browser support html5?
# [20:00] <Conexion> Most modern ones, yes (past 5 years)
# [20:01] <pixolin> thanks
# [20:01] <Conexion> WebKit is very good about that, and Android and the iPhone has a pretty good share of that market
# [20:01] <franksalim> past 5 years? html5?
# [20:01] <Conexion> Yup. As long as you have kept your OS up to date
# [20:02] <ghinda> Conexion: just think about all the different webkits out there, on androids, nokias, etc. Most of them are crippled in one way or the other, especialy considering js.
# [20:02] <ghinda> css is pretty good everywhere, but js, and performance most of all, no so much
# [20:02] <Conexion> ghinda: I work with these every single day. Almost every phone in the past 5 years has all the basics you need
# [20:03] <Conexion> It depends what you're trying to use JS for as well
# [20:03] <Conexion> If you're trying animate things, then you're already starting a bad precident
# [20:03] <ghinda> Conexion: js-only single page web apps
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# [20:03] <Conexion> That's a bad idea no matter what you're programming
# [20:03] <ghinda> Conexion: I agree, but still
# [20:04] <Conexion> Not 'but still', you can't argue that they are broken because they don't do something that you shouldn't be doing
# [20:04] <ghinda> woa, that's a lot of don't
# [20:05] <Conexion> Your argument basically states that it is difficult because it can't do something that you shouldn't be doing anyways.
# [20:05] <Conexion> Which is silly :p
# [20:06] <ghinda> no, my argument is that js support, on anything but the latest smartphones is pretty bad.
# [20:06] <Conexion> And what do you need major js support for on smartphones?
# [20:06] <Conexion> why*
# [20:06] <ghinda> what kind of question is that? why not? why do we need js on desktops then?
# [20:07] <Conexion> My point is, you're not going to need to do complex interactions on a smart phone.
# [20:08] <Conexion> Most of the time, you're simply going to be presenting text, data, and some images
# [20:08] <Conexion> With very little interaction
# [20:08] <Conexion> brb
# [20:09] <ghinda> people in nigeria use opera mini in the same way we use desktop browsers.they want to do the same things, same data, etc. and most mobile users want the same behaviour on their phone.
# [20:09] <pixolin> shouldn't the decision what kind of js is used be made by the web developr and not the browser manufacturer?
# [20:09] <ghinda> they don't want stripped-down mobile versions.
# [20:10] <pixolin> but let's be realistic: mobile browsers aren't developed for Nigeria
# [20:10] <tw2113> they're developed for users
# [20:11] <pixolin> nor users that want to have a 100% desktop feeling
# [20:11] <tw2113> how do you know?
# [20:11] <pixolin> tw2113: or perhaps developed to sell well?
# [20:11] <ghinda> they're developed also for nigeria, or at least they should be
# [20:12] <pixolin> they should ... but as I said, the realistic point of view might be that financial interests pay a role here, too
# [20:12] <ghinda> I'm not saying people what a desktop feeling on mobile, but they at least want the same data, and ability to do the same things
# [20:12] <tw2113> mobile devices are developed for users....and they have zero ways to predict how the users will use them
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# [20:12] <tw2113> when it comes to mobile, the primary thing is the content
# [20:12] <tw2113> at least to me
# [20:12] <tw2113> the clothing the content comes dressed up in is a different story
# [20:13] <pixolin> tw2113: I agree it should be that way but then you want to keep programms as lean as possible.
# [20:15] <pixolin> I could imagine it being tempting to have the fastest browser that fails with some very uncommon javascript usage.
# [20:17] <ghinda> pixolin: I understand where you're coming from but `with great power comes great responsability`
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# [20:18] <ghinda> pixolin: so if these webkit-destroying mobile platform developing companies would've just shipped the proper webkit, it would've made everything so much easier
# [20:18] <pixolin> ghinda: sorry, have been watching "Braking Bad" this week. Perhaps my judgement is clouded.
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# [20:19] <ghinda> pixolin: how is it?
# [20:19] <pixolin> Breaking Bad?
# [20:19] <pixolin> or my judgement? :)
# [20:19] <tw2113> both
# [20:20] <ghinda> breaking bad ofcourse
# [20:20] <pixolin> :-D
# [20:20] <pixolin> ghinda: Oh, I love it. Most intelligent entertainment since years.
# [20:20] <tw2113> it's topics like this that are why the Web Standards stuff was created, and why IE has been a bastard for so long
# [20:20] <tw2113> people going and beating their own specialized trail
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# [20:21] <tw2113> then when people use a different device not meant for that trail, all hell breaks loose like a caps lock key that's stuck
# [20:21] <pixolin> tw2113: pardon my ignorance, I know that Web Standards are named after Jeffrey Zeldman's aproach but never got, what it was about.
# [20:22] <pixolin> even deemed it to be writing html in accordance with validators
# [20:24] <pixolin> omg, what a terrible English. I beg your pardon.
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# [20:25] <tw2113> a standardized way to make your browsers/devices render and display, so that people from all walks of life with all variations of access get a similar experience, and no one is left out
# [20:25] <tw2113> something like that :D
# [20:26] <pixolin> but isn't that the same as writing html code that isn't rejected by validators?
# [20:26] <ghinda> pixolin: not really, since validators don't see semantics and accesibility for once
# [20:26] <pixolin> oh. OK.
# [20:27] <pixolin> so it's more like using <strong> instead of <b> and not misusing <ul> for nav menus and stuff like that?
# [20:28] <tw2113> why is unordered lists a misuse in menus?
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# [20:29] <pixolin> it's not semantic?
# [20:30] <tw2113> <nav><ul>....</ul></nav>
# [20:30] <tw2113> depending on how you think about them....menus are lists of links
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# [20:32] <pixolin> Perhaps due to my poor language skills and my even worse programming skills I have to break things down and for me semantics in html mean something as "a tag describes what kind of content is shown". and a list for me is a number of items that have the same circumstands (which indeed fits for menus, too, in a way)
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# [20:34] <tw2113> I just confirmed that Bruce Lawson, one of the authors for "Introducing HTML5" uses an unordered list in his navigation
# [20:34] <pixolin> let's face it, lists where used fpr nav menus as they were easy to style with css but not due to the semnatic approach, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
# [20:34] <tw2113> he does a lot of focus with the semantic stuff going on in web development
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# [20:35] <tw2113> if you don't want to use them, you don't have to
# [20:35] <tw2113> i am not going to twist your arm
# [20:35] <tw2113> but in my mind, using ULs for navigation is a logical option
# [20:35] <pixolin> hm, there isn't any nav-items tag?
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# [20:36] <pixolin> <nav><li> ... :)
# [20:36] <tw2113> not at the moment, that i'm aware of
# [20:36] <tw2113> no
# [20:37] <pixolin> perhaps I should write a letter to the WHATWG
# [20:37] <pixolin> at least they would have a good laugh then ...
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# [20:38] <pixolin> except for Jefrey Zeldman's book does anyone know of a good web article about web standards where I can brush up my poor knowledge?
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# [20:39] <tw2113> back
# [20:41] <pixolin> is semantics in HTML5 having influence on SEO in the future?
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# [20:42] <pixolin> what I mean is like <aside>-content beeing weighed less important then <article>-content
# [20:42] <tw2113> ?g html5doctor
# [20:42] <bot-t> tw2113, HTML5 Doctor, helping you implement HTML5 today - http://html5doctor.com/
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# [20:45] <tw2113> lots of good discussion there pixolin
# [20:45] <pixolin> so the answer is "not at the moment, but who knows for the future, it won't hurt to use it"
# [20:46] <pixolin> yes, looks like I have to look into that web site more often
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# [20:47] <tw2113> it's not going to do you harm to use the tags now
# [20:47] <tw2113> it takes time for the googles of the world to make better use of it
# [20:47] <tw2113> but they can't until people start using it
# [20:48] <pixolin> tw2113: I'm just curious why people are so behind semantics, if it doesn't change anything in the page ranking (yet).
# [20:49] <pixolin> of course, a <nav> looks nicer then a <div id="nav">, but who cares if the results are the same?
# [20:49] <tw2113> less work in the future once the semantic nature of it starts kicking in
# [20:49] <franksalim> page ranking is inevitably affected by the available content
# [20:49] <franksalim> if we all publish content with semantic markup, "seo" will follow
# [20:49] <PrgmrBill> semantics also make markup easier to understand
# [20:50] <PrgmrBill> they don't require a class for you to know what it does
# [20:50] <franksalim> in the meantime, we can build other tools and software that takes advantage of semantic markup
# [20:50] <pixolin> PrgmrBill: that's obvious
# [20:50] <tw2113> the joys of giving things more meaning
# [20:50] <tw2113> people love meaning
# [20:51] <pixolin> ... and forget to comment their code
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# [20:53] <pixolin> don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about new tags, the use of semantics or the development of html5 in general. I just want to get a better understanding of the thoughts behind it.
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# [21:12] <tiglionabbit> how does the accept-ranges / partial content dance work exactly?
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# [21:29] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: hello
# [21:29] <tiglionabbit> hi
# [21:29] <franksalim> RFC 2616?
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# [21:32] <tiglionabbit> here's my question more specifically http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8015347/how-should-a-web-server-respond-to-the-requests-generated-by-a-video-tag
# [21:33] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: how do you know that the request with no range came from webkit?
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# [21:33] <franksalim> it could be someone just trying to download the resource
# [21:33] <tiglionabbit> because I am running this on my local machine
# [21:33] <franksalim> i mean in general
# [21:33] <tiglionabbit> and because webkit logs its requests in the developer panel
# [21:33] <tiglionabbit> oh
# [21:33] <franksalim> in the wild
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# [21:33] <tiglionabbit> well I don't know
# [21:33] <franksalim> you will be handling many requests, some of them from webkit
# [21:33] <tiglionabbit> but there is a separate download url
# [21:34] <franksalim> and you should, i think, just handle them per the http spec
# [21:34] <franksalim> and it is too bad that some of them will be immediately canceled, but not the end of the world
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# [21:36] <franksalim> i'd like to hear if anyone else has any information or opinions, though
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# [21:38] <tiglionabbit> yeah well cancelling requests for this resource is expensive on the server side
# [21:38] <tiglionabbit> I'd rather just refuse any requests that don't have ranges
# [21:38] <tiglionabbit> maybe I should return a client error response on those
# [21:39] <franksalim> could you hang onto the request and let the client cancel it? without doing anything resource intensive on the server or preemptively sending an error back?
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# [21:42] <tiglionabbit> well, even just keeping a process open in hopes it will be cancelled seems kinda silly
# [21:43] <pixolin> I just read http://html5doctor.com/the-section-element/ which is somewhat confusing for me. I agree with "When an element is needed for styling purposes or as a convenience for scripting, authors are encouraged to use the div element instead." but how do I group a list of articles (e.g. of a blog) semantically then?
# [21:43] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: it costs a whole process to handle http requests in your server? that sounds expensive and unnecessary
# [21:44] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: you want to group articles?
# [21:44] <tiglionabbit> franksalim: depends on the server. If I was using apache it would. Fortunately for now I'm using gevent so it's not that bad, but still, what if they never cancel the request?
# [21:44] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: cancel it yourself after a timeout
# [21:44] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: doesn't it make sense to group them semnatically beside having header, footer and nav?
# [21:45] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: my first thought was, that section would be the wrap for articles but the mentioned article says, this is wrong
# [21:45] <JonathanNeal> You can group articles together with section if the grouping means something.
# [21:45] <JonathanNeal> like, the collection itself as something you or people care about.
# [21:45] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: you're using gevent, so i wouldn't be so worried about the resources taken up by one extra, idle http request
# [21:46] <franksalim> not unless you specifically know that is a problem
# [21:46] <franksalim> premature optimization being the root of all evil and all
# [21:47] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: on my website, the main content is in a text block with another background color. broken down it constist of several articles. so I thought, once we are bringing up semantics with html5 it would make sense to express what is done by styling with semnatic tags, too?
# [21:47] <tiglionabbit> doesn't it seem kinda strange that, after the client has already sent a range request, that's when the server gets to say accept-ranges:bytes or whatever?
# [21:47] <tiglionabbit> is there any handshake before this?
# [21:47] <JonathanNeal> pixolin: example?
# [21:48] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: it's my kindergarden's website again ... http://www.kindergarten-hampelmann.de
# [21:49] <JonathanNeal> which page, the one you sent me?
# [21:49] <franksalim> 2616 14.5: "Origin servers that accept byte-range requests MAY send [Accept-Ranges: bytes] but are not required to do so. Clients MAY generate byte-range requests without having received this header for the resource involved. Range units are defined in section 3.12."
# [21:49] <JonathanNeal> pixolin, here's an easy way I think of it, I ask myself this question, does the grouping need a heading?
# [21:49] <franksalim> so it doesn't sound that strange to me, really. you can assume that if a server understands ranges that bytes are a pre-specified range unit
# [21:50] <franksalim> and the server may (redundantly) send the accept-ranges: bytes back
# [21:50] <franksalim> or not
# [21:50] <pixolin> well, the pages all have a (main) heading followed by content parts which are the articles
# [21:50] <JonathanNeal> will the group you want to <section> need a heading for the group?
# [21:50] <pixolin> while some articles may have their own headlines, too.
# [21:51] <franksalim> it is sort of like a request that only accepts one content type getting a response back that still specifies the content type. you could infer the information, so it is redundant, but it isn't harmful
# [21:51] <pixolin> JonathanNeal: http://kindergarten-hampelmann.de/aktuell is probably a better example. The main content blog starts with a headline, followed by several content parts
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# [21:53] <pixolin> wouldn't I "wrap" the articles with a section-tag in that case? The article from html5doctor says, it's wrong to " to demarcate the main content area from the nav, header, footer etc."
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# [22:00] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: have you seen that there is a new draft clarifying range requests from HTTPbis? that could be very useful
# [22:00] <franksalim> tiglionabbit: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-17
# [22:00] <tiglionabbit> thanks
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# [22:40] <Marin_M> Hello
# [22:40] <franksalim> hi
# [22:41] <Marin_M> 2D <canvas> games are really slower for me with Firefox than with Chrome
# [22:41] <Marin_M> Is it normal?
# [22:42] <Marin_M> Or is it because I use bad nVidia Linux drivers without hardware acceleration?
# [22:43] <tw2113> probably a mix of all the above
# [22:43] <Jon47> i have found in general that chrome is faster than firefox, but i can't speak for features utilizing canvas in particular
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# [22:45] <themiddleman_itv> Anyone remember that demo from like 6 mo. ago that had all the boxes that you could sort and filter and they would animate into their new places?
# [22:46] <tw2113> jquery quicksand?
# [22:48] <tw2113> http://razorjack.net/quicksand/
# [22:52] <themiddleman_itv> tw2113: actually no, it was like that but not as styled, I think it has some data in the boxed (was it html5 tags?)
# [22:53] <franksalim> isotope?
# [22:54] <themiddleman_itv> franksalim_: that wasnt it, the boxes were square and like 150x150px
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# [22:57] <tw2113> which part are you looking for themiddleman_itv ? the demo itself or the effect so you can utilize it in your own stuff?
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# [23:02] <themiddleman_itv> tw2113: the demo to show a designer
# [23:03] <tw2113> then i have no idea beyond that one i linked :D, sorry
# [23:03] <themiddleman_itv> tw2113: thanks for looking!
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# [23:27] <acidjazz> INTERIOR CROCODILE ALLIGATOR
# [23:27] <acidjazz> I DRIVE A CHEVROLET MOVIE THEATRE
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# Session Close: Sat Nov 05 00:00:00 2011

The end :)